From nobody Fri Sep 21 08:17:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBA3130E09 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:12:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ncsc.gov.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5pUs-ukzZRIh for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr100131.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.10.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69450130E55 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:12:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ncsc.gov.uk; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=zXAyIEQGN2OVgIlcSc2NxALTwXAADu49zaLQi1XbYpA=; b=VhRKqhMUwfgpE6jU6ho07I+qle/0uERQ3m/yG6bD+wtMdTHJpupfrkR4TEi2LV5Ym/Gs0fnGwYKIo9dOtORSdN1cVROuzmavnCahJ/n3lv40t8ZETrTSzJ+/QMOPKbWE1s0lVsdgcy/tH5YxE1klCmFKvSFErN/CicKCkYuCUn4= Received: from MMXP123MB0847.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.238.153) by MMXP123MB0765.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.242.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1143.15; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:12:11 +0000 Received: from MMXP123MB0847.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::f47d:48cb:508c:735]) by MMXP123MB0847.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::f47d:48cb:508c:735%6]) with mapi id 15.20.1143.017; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:12:11 +0000 From: Kirsty P To: "smart@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: Welcome! Thread-Index: AQHUUb0KB9Tvp6rrY0+3aNWkghGSig== Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:12:11 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk; x-originating-ip: [51.141.26.231] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; MMXP123MB0765; 6:LWIoW4fsJcN3kPipzxyc36Uwg6rWY1GK8g4Jh0he8iZJGXU/LF/7pDvO4/NvVn8pitRt7K0Ja0gPIiDPVH0n4Jm4HP7UHUvi7sPcsuFb36yZ/k3GbEmqkAWLYvupPVSnbUXgziqDOBZAItEXFFexed07tnNlk+B3ne4q0o5/vSKJY8IjlBvooYrlSUcFzaBcdEH65cBgGtYHwmJ3bSLQlCpN/US0GfI1P6mXh4KcSL2/djJqu6aVMsNmpjlvyMuL6CK2G4Ifb5LozEJ/z7q7H+Ei++2mFgVez1bWWCGvdVG9K5L5QVcQzCKPtmUV9IMuUOUXn30+WVYqN2876Kyj7JuQ+EcHJ/W7CPQyTrlWBU/2ShOmPC3A+XuhGtV4U/mW039nf718Y9a2L0Y90Q1XzWHaWqG9tKsYLdl9CQ7ddP+w+lfUPHxoo7w9cknj4oC/OpbIInbff2o1UcdWu12liA==; 5:svPQGDFJ+Zvspqk+sE4WjVxf8HlCQ4ix81jM1E4L51FncXUTNjuLcfyM5KqYWEth+b+8vwhr0mWy0/QyVDTbiQmFwrFQw+IsMQB0B/CUj8Siped8YZEB2eluGrCPYFETrkGt8jwQV2eqH50lFmg7vZ3HLU6+slkB/ISGEw21fUI=; 7:byoN4Cxw7cvIo4nj2zzK7/edNjIkiWLL7f3qTH2rCyqqiKtzV4ZaUFNsSZ5VO2VBVRT8DZ0cvui5mL9v5YnoSPnBW3eSDzOs8xewx3wtIRixfFyxiv/zbmtPuFzerug+wKt3aDtdqR6MyZW9pVJ/5LPW7O1Em8MV/XwHuTfPJRuRDm1cDCb/D8SgIHhJSlVvbf5xavVOMDkc+keqlI6z+OFnPj3sGcBSLXTlEvLNkvmOIvpmc8j4N323juXKWzvZ x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f4f82fb0-d035-4e84-c545-08d61fd49b1b x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534165)(7168020)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600074)(711020)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:MMXP123MB0765; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MMXP123MB0765: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(192374486261705)(27231711734898); x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(6040522)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3231355)(944501410)(52105095)(10201501046)(3002001)(93006095)(93001095)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123560045)(20161123564045)(20161123562045)(20161123558120)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(201708071742011)(7699051); SRVR:MMXP123MB0765; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:MMXP123MB0765; x-forefront-prvs: 0802ADD973 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(39850400004)(396003)(376002)(136003)(346002)(366004)(199004)(189003)(486006)(14454004)(3480700004)(7696005)(476003)(86362001)(478600001)(66066001)(7736002)(75922002)(74316002)(8936002)(55236004)(2900100001)(53936002)(7116003)(5660300001)(6606003)(71190400001)(6916009)(71200400001)(102836004)(2501003)(186003)(8676002)(26005)(99286004)(1730700003)(81156014)(81166006)(5250100002)(9686003)(54896002)(5640700003)(68736007)(6116002)(3846002)(55016002)(6506007)(72206003)(33656002)(105586002)(106356001)(25786009)(14444005)(2906002)(74482002)(316002)(226693001)(97736004)(19627405001)(2351001)(6436002)(256004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:MMXP123MB0765; H:MMXP123MB0847.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ncsc.gov.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: UW9+0W3yWhRX26V+BM68OZrpGy+TbPwJ0yoxHkUaPHNvqVmlTecywOIaocyLYwhDN2ejte6/Wt+fF7szIJx5isVzYnh4+apQID+cZCGbP3dXWiXHENnJGmDdbWRRPHhPRVtAANn/Kcx3MY6GE427CFUXhqa/CXWQuT1INuML07LHYi8aEhWCYVXFqOlyYq6tqfsSryS+ZhLUvBkZQF+5e3LA0ah0Zf7YeidrsY/9XWa/smVppjtECi3OeTriBzLuY0FfRY63VdvzpUeEjOTFuJ2iWLHNiCR50kIUt0jSYA8kWAqMrndJO+oGxn8mIzlX0BmtOEh++z+ZOdBXdiDJcu9MjzBHCLUSR8xwPl3U4S8= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MMXP123MB0847F112C013924FEC1EE505D7120MMXP123MB0847GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ncsc.gov.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f4f82fb0-d035-4e84-c545-08d61fd49b1b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Sep 2018 15:12:11.4569 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 14aa5744-ece1-474e-a2d7-34f46dda64a1 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MMXP123MB0765 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:17:16 -0700 Subject: [Smart] Welcome! X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:12:20 -0000 --_000_MMXP123MB0847F112C013924FEC1EE505D7120MMXP123MB0847GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome to the SMART RG! We're all about Stopping Malware And Researching T= hreats. When we say threats, we mean things like malicious domains, DDoS attacks, I= oT botnets, how networks are protected and how phishing can be best detecte= d, through a range of measures. The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or SMART RG) a= ims to stimulate research into how requirements to defend against cyber att= acks can be met in a world of encrypted data. It will research the effects,= both positive and negative, of existing, proposed and newly published prot= ocols and Internet standards on attack defence. It will gather evidence fro= m information security practitioners on methods used to defend against atta= cks and make this available to protocol designers. It will research and pro= mote ways to deal with attacks efficiently and make the most of resources t= o do this. It will publish case studies into historic attacks, so the commu= nity can learn from previous attacks. Stay tuned for our draft charter... This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk --_000_MMXP123MB0847F112C013924FEC1EE505D7120MMXP123MB0847GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Welcome to the SMART RG! We're all about Stopping Malware And Resea= rching Threats.
=
= When we say threats, we mean things like malicious domains, DDoS attacks, = IoT botnets, how networks are protected and how ph= ishing can be best detected, through a range of measures.
=
= The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or SMART RG) = ;aims to stimulate research into how requirements to defend = against cyber attacks can be met in a world of encrypted data. It will= research the effects, both positive and negative, of existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Internet standards on attack de= fence. It will gather evidence from information security practitioners on m= ethods used to defend against attacks and make this available to protocol d= esigners. It will research and promote ways to deal with attacks efficiently an= d make the most of resources to do this. It will publish case studies into historic attacks, so the community can learn f= rom previous attacks. 
=
= Stay tuned for our draft charter...
=
=


This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk --_000_MMXP123MB0847F112C013924FEC1EE505D7120MMXP123MB0847GBRP_-- From nobody Tue Sep 25 08:53:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26721312FC for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:53:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gMU4Srr6Fyhw for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 200C31312F4 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id p125-v6so1914980oic.3 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=m3KYifzc3gOUsN2DpHqnj7TNSbRHvnBDrybiHTsMm2s=; b=lN3t99aWlsooIXMds7k/clCkN7Ap6zzUkw1YxpG9j6K3QjQ0IsX0Z/NECfnKfPcORh RQZ6o2uYDd/YYXDE/tV9KdjqgolbG2HKfRA5V1tRCe2NExo8OXH8aNdCHz1uFsA6x92w EeSl40Oyfn5ZeM7cA5VZyjvBa2mEriGMmZg0nQv0S/YiELCXytfngM858j8DAJSJ+9mp V0vUNV4kCLXLJqt/zz+ftqs09OA2BxLswcaBkY9jac+6SHl5fvPxaM+OpRrSM0eKPZPX 1J37/BOg4JDoIyldgEriHjwzrp3QlFJHF9AYVhjqf9kVk25aWfadVNyKRQXauvdMC/Xe dicw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=m3KYifzc3gOUsN2DpHqnj7TNSbRHvnBDrybiHTsMm2s=; b=W2FriChgsnmS8RBrw2HZ43UXH9QGsN3wfHshz6F8z4Jr3UAPojJ5/cLbnwcXXt5Ayt DYwujBcY+OSkWWmb58TBXrixwvebkaXm3ORA6LZ5kW2lNrZFb1rih6sKgL3HefGwAYnH 6wHl9CScQicxJlqhqredP3uGeV2JnBV/dsqckfKXTmUiz2RXX5zjUpbAinEi+Vq5RODw a8J6Dd1vT6oLxiL8VBa73KujJTAiotRjveRw1wXckWRphn3oOYwTXUf2OauZr6m+S0nI pGvPqXckv1qSeew4s4UkAhCya6E0MNUTRQEtmGB92t7E0t3s8M3o807M6Ri6MJVOncPt swrg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohgV5ZnxaSI3wzbpEGxVVnOi+JwDFmaEr9SDVN9PC0knHFuh0f2 Mtj4L+NVjefdf1S/4V7Ly/vfzTfH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV6143Qb/SIc1FXb8DcM0kMyqXuUCKB/N9At/Cho+So6dSaY8bJFX8hR+Gp51Zfikqg0t0veyLw== X-Received: by 2002:aca:3d56:: with SMTP id k83-v6mr1058990oia.166.1537890789088; Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:100e:b106:2410:b5fe:ca7f:66c2:d37c? ([2600:100e:b106:2410:b5fe:ca7f:66c2:d37c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f24-v6sm906271oti.58.2018.09.25.08.53.07 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:53:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Bret Jordan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0F3D260D-4E10-4A3C-9D07-DDAC2C2AE7EB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:53:08 -0600 To: smart@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Welcome X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 15:53:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0F3D260D-4E10-4A3C-9D07-DDAC2C2AE7EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kristy, Thank you for setting up this group and mail list. This is critical = work that needs to be done and IMHO it will be good for the broader = community as well. I full support this effort and will try and allocate = as much time as possible to helping move this forward. =20 I have also started a work item in the IETF called Collaborative = Automated Course of Action Operations (CACAO). The CACAO work needs the = information and knowledge that will come out of this SMART work. Please let me know how I can help move this forward. Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." --Apple-Mail=_0F3D260D-4E10-4A3C-9D07-DDAC2C2AE7EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Kristy,

Thank you for setting up this group and mail list.  This = is critical work that needs to be done and IMHO it will be good for the = broader community as well. I full support this effort and will try and = allocate as much time as possible to helping move this forward. =  

I have = also started a work item in the IETF called Collaborative Automated = Course of Action Operations (CACAO). The CACAO work needs the = information and knowledge that will come out of this SMART = work.

Please = let me know how I can help move this forward.

Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

= --Apple-Mail=_0F3D260D-4E10-4A3C-9D07-DDAC2C2AE7EB-- From nobody Wed Sep 26 06:34:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142B7124BE5 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2018 06:34:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.456, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ncsc.gov.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zlPDPqu46kju for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2018 06:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-CWL-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr110094.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.11.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DDB1130E1E for ; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bret, Welcome to the list! It will be great to have you involved in the group; thank you for your inte= rest and support. It's great to hear that others think this work is importa= nt too, and useful for the wider community at IETF/IRTF. I look forward to = SMART working with CACAO in the future! Going forward, I'll be putting out a list of ideas for research problems so= on - any thoughts on that would be appreciated. And please share any commen= ts and suggestions on the soon-to-be-released draft charter (I'll be postin= g that very, very shortly...!) Kirsty From: Smart On Behalf Of Bret Jordan Sent: 25 September 2018 16:53 To: smart@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Smart] Welcome Kristy, Thank you for setting up this group and mail list. This is critical work t= hat needs to be done and IMHO it will be good for the broader community as = well. I full support this effort and will try and allocate as much time as = possible to helping move this forward. I have also started a work item in the IETF called Collaborative Automated = Course of Action Operations (CACAO). The CACAO work needs the information a= nd knowledge that will come out of this SMART work. Please let me know how I can help move this forward. Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can= not be unscrambled is an egg." This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk --_000_MMXP123MB08473B3757373A5948499F6ED7150MMXP123MB0847GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bret,


Welcome to the list!


It will be great to have you inv= olved in the group; thank you for your interest and support. It's great to = hear that others think this work is important too, and useful for = ;the wider community at IETF/IRTF. I look forward to SMART working with CACAO in the future!


Going forward, I'll be putt= ing out a list of ideas for research problems soon - any tho= ughts on that would be appreciated. And please share any com= ments and suggestions on the soon-to-be-released draft charter (I'll be posting that very, very&nb= sp;shortly...!)


Kirsty




From: Smart <smart-bounces@irtf.org> On Behalf Of Bret Jordan
Sent: 25 September 2018 16:53
To: smart@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [Smart] Welcome

 

Kristy,

 

Thank you for setting up this group and mail list.=  This is critical work that needs to be done and IMHO it will be good= for the broader community as well. I full support this effort and will try= and allocate as much time as possible to helping move this forward.  

 

I have also started a work item in the IETF called= Collaborative Automated Course of Action Operations (CACAO). The CACAO wor= k needs the information and knowledge that will come out of this SMART work= .

 

Please let me know how I can help move this forwar= d.

 

PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 68= 0A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050<= /p>

"Without cryptography vihv vi= vc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg= ."

 

This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk --_000_MMXP123MB08473B3757373A5948499F6ED7150MMXP123MB0847GBRP_-- From nobody Wed Sep 26 06:37:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550EB124BE5 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2018 06:36:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.456, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ncsc.gov.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QJLzEqvcydvG for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2018 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multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PPjmfjXat3MBb0aUazjS8h0c5j3jFSCoX" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 20:08:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --PPjmfjXat3MBb0aUazjS8h0c5j3jFSCoX Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="EKSxDJUqkRa7AVOX6xT6Y0gESTs69Eegp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: smart@irtf.org Message-ID: <666e3975-9fd7-24a9-57ec-53096b9fda1a@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG --EKSxDJUqkRa7AVOX6xT6Y0gESTs69Eegp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------292FC591B7F843F2D8C61644" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------292FC591B7F843F2D8C61644 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I think there's work here that could be interesting, so I'd be supportive of what I hope this RG might be about, but I'm not quite sure... I would be re-assured if the charter was explicit that the putative RG is not trying to break or weaken the security aspects of IETF protocols. I believe that that is the case - after all the overwhelming majority of people using the Internet, including those defending the security of systems, really need those security features - but given the history, the "in a world of encrypted data" is the kind of phrase that could raise hackles, and hackles are better not raised. I don't much care what words would be used, so long as it's clear that the putative RG is not setting out to e.g. upend the IETF's BCPs on these topics. There are real tensions and challenges created by encrypting more and better, and in reducing uses of identifiers to be more privacy-friendly, but IMO successfully investigating those issues requires being explicit that one is not aiming to weaken things like e2e security as a feature of Internet protocols. 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([2600:1017:b80a:35ab:b005:d76c:686c:8bb8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t28-v6sm1935564qtc.67.2018.09.27.14.59.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Sep 2018 14:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-52268FC4-2847-4541-B7F3-0B99FFC88F0A Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Bret Jordan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 17:59:04 -0400 Cc: "smart@irtf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: To: Kirsty P Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 21:59:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail-52268FC4-2847-4541-B7F3-0B99FFC88F0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kristy and RG ET al., I think this charter sounds great and covers most of the areas we need to ad= dress in the short-term. Great work. The deliverables outlined so far will g= reatly assist the community for years to come. Bret=20 Sent from my Commodore 128D PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 > On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P wrote: >=20 > This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping Malwar= e and Researching Threats (SMART). >=20 > Your thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to the list w= ith your comments! - and keep an eye out for a list of proposed research pro= blems soon... >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > # Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - Draft Cha= rter >=20 >=20 > ## BACKGROUND >=20 > The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or SMART RG) w= ill investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be met in a world o= f encrypted data. It will research the effects, both positive and negative, o= f existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Internet standards on= attack defence. It will gather evidence from information security practitio= ners on methods used to defend against attacks and make this available to pr= otocol designers. As a result, designers, implementers and users of new prot= ocols will be better informed about the possible impact on attack prevention= and mitigation. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research and evidence to t= he IETF. This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol changes= where relevant and stimulate methodical research into attack defence method= s for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously assessed for their sec= urity properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also rigorously as= sessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a fuller understandin= g of the value for such change, enabling a better engineered Internet. >=20 >=20 >=20 > ## AIMS >=20 > This research group has these major aims: >=20 > To bring evidence on attacks and the methods that are or could be used to d= efend against them to the attention of the IETF. > To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive and negative, of n= ew protocols and updates to existing protocols. > To stimulate and generate research into attack defence methods for new pro= tocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of new and exis= ting methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks. > To provide systematic guidance to designers of new protocols as to what at= tack defence considerations to review, and to inform implementers by default= about the effects of new protocols on attack defence. > To produce problem statements that describe key issues in cyber security f= or the group to research (initial research project ideas are listed below). > =20 >=20 > ## OUTPUTS >=20 > The research group plans to create documents that may include, but are not= limited to, the following: >=20 > Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through the IRTF R= FC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use cases, case st= udies and convey research results. They will be written for use by other gro= ups to inform protocol design. > Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the relationship be= tween attack defence and the Internet architecture and protocols. > Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of actual attacks and th= e success of defence methods against them, as well as theoretical and formal= analyses of the implications of proposed protocols on attack defence. Defen= ce methods will be analyzed to determine if there are ways to optimize in or= der to better scale attack detection and mitigation. > Survey of current and historic IETF material to discover existing delibera= tions on attack defence. > Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable researcher= s to conduct experiments and report results that are useful to designers of p= rotocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of the effects of proto= cols on attack defence backed by evidence from real-world attacks, laborator= y-based testing and theoretical analysis of protocols, through the analysis l= ens of attacks, detection methods and systematic assessment methodologies. > Within the first year, the research group aims to: >=20 > Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection methods=E2=80=AFand determine the= =E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods against different a= ttack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, C&C, endpoint malware)= > Publish case studies of historical attacks and make recommendations where a= ttacks could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented > Publish an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence Considerat= ions for Protocol Design and Deployment". >=20 >=20 > ## MEMBERSHIP >=20 > Membership is open to any interested parties who intend to remain current w= ith the published documents and mailing list issues. Wide participation from= industry, academia, government and non-profits is encouraged. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA= ) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk > --=20 > Smart mailing list > Smart@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart --Apple-Mail-52268FC4-2847-4541-B7F3-0B99FFC88F0A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kristy and RG ET al.,

I t= hink this charter sounds great and covers most of the areas we need to addre= ss in the short-term.  Great work. The deliverables outlined so far wil= l greatly assist the community for years to come.

B= ret 

Sent from my Commodore 128D

PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1= 447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050

= On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> wro= te:

This is the draft charter= for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping Malware and Researching= Threats (SMART).

Your thoughts and&nb= sp;suggestions are very welcome - please post to the list with your com= ments! - and keep an eye out for&nbs= p;a list of proposed research problems soon...



# Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - Draft Charter


## BACKGROUND

The Stopping Malware and= Researching Threats Research Group (or SMART RG) will investigate how cyber= attack defence requirements can be met in a world of encrypted data. It wil= l research the effects, both positive and negative, of existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Inter= net standards on attack defence. It will gather evidence from information se= curity practitioners on methods used to defend against attacks and make this= available to protocol designers. As a result, designers, implementers and users of new protocols will be bet= ter informed about the possible impact on attack prevention and mitigation.


The IRTF is in a unique p= osition to provide this research and evidence to the IETF. This research gro= up aims to describe the effect of protocol changes where relevant and stimul= ate methodical research into attack defence methods for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously assesse= d for their security properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are als= o rigorously assessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a full= er understanding of the value for such change, enabling a better engineered Internet.



## AIMS

This research group has t= hese major aims:

  • To bring evidence on attacks<= /b> and the methods that are or could be used to defend against them to the a= ttention of the IETF.
  • To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both po= sitive and negative, of new protocols and updates to existing protocols.
  • To stimulate and genera= te research into attack defence methods for new protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community o= f new and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks.
  • To pro= vide systematic guidance to designers of new protocols as t= o what attack defence considerations to review, and to inform implementers b= y default about the effects of new protocols on attack defence.
  • To produce proble= m statements that describe key issues in cyber security for the group to= research (initial research project ideas are listed below).

 

## OUTPUTS=

The research group plans= to create documents that may include, but are not limited to, the following= :

  • Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through t= he IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use cases= , case studies and convey research results. They will be written for use by other groups to inform protocol design.
  • Policy p= apers, for in-depth analysis and dis= cussion of the relationship between attack defence and the Internet architec= ture and protocols.
  • Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of a= ctual attacks and the success of defence methods against them, as well as th= eoretical and formal analyses of the implications of proposed protocols on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed t= o determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better scale attack de= tection and mitigation.
  • Survey of current an= d historic IETF material to discover existing deliberations on attack defenc= e.
  • Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable r= esearchers to conduct experiments and report results that are useful to desi= gners of protocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by eviden= ce from real-world attacks, laboratory-based te= sting and theoretical analysis of protocols, through the analysis lens of at= tacks, detection methods and systematic assessment methodologies.

Within the first year, t= he research group aims to:

  • Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection me= thods=E2=80=AFand determine the=E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80= =AFmethods against different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, sp= ambots, C&C, endpoint malware)
  • Publish case studies of histori= cal attacks and make recommendations where attacks could have been stopped m= ore quickly, or even prevented
  • Publish an Informational RFC, t= itled: "Important Attack Defence Considerations for Protocol Design and Depl= oyment".


## MEMBERSHIP

Membership is open to an= y interested parties who intend to remain current with the published documen= ts and mailing list issues. Wide participation from industry, academia, gove= rnment and non-profits is encouraged.





This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) a= nd may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA quer= ies to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk
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boundary="_000_MMXP123MB0847AC90F1811721351B22D8D7EC0MMXP123MB0847GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ncsc.gov.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3a7ef2ff-80b5-4e06-c5df-08d62534bbc1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Sep 2018 11:22:53.7118 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 14aa5744-ece1-474e-a2d7-34f46dda64a1 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MMXP123MB0814 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 11:23:01 -0000 --_000_MMXP123MB0847AC90F1811721351B22D8D7EC0MMXP123MB0847GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, Thank you for your comments! Great to hear you think the work here could be= interesting. I hope I can clarify what the proposed RG is about, and get your support. I= can reassure you are correct in believing what our aims are - we are not t= rying to weaken the privacy aspect of protocols, and it is not the intentio= n of the RG to propose modifications to IETF protocols - we want cyber defe= nce methods to co-exist along encryption, rather than seeking to break or w= eaken it. Hopefully, as you say, stating this explicitly in our charter wil= l let us investigate these real tensions and challenges without raising any= hackles. The draft charter is still up for discussion, so we can certainly change th= e phrase "will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be met= in a world of encrypted data". I know you said you don't much care what wo= rds are used, but do you have any thoughts on to better say what we mean? H= ow does something like "will investigate how cyber attack defence requireme= nts can be met without weakening the protection afforded by encryption" sou= nd to you? I hope this allays your concerns, and I welcome any further input you (or o= thers) might have. Kirsty ________________________________ From: Smart on behalf of Stephen Farrell Sent: 27 September 2018 21:08 To: smart@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG Hiya, I think there's work here that could be interesting, so I'd be supportive of what I hope this RG might be about, but I'm not quite sure... I would be re-assured if the charter was explicit that the putative RG is not trying to break or weaken the security aspects of IETF protocols. I believe that that is the case - after all the overwhelming majority of people using the Internet, including those defending the security of systems, really need those security features - but given the history, the "in a world of encrypted data" is the kind of phrase that could raise hackles, and hackles are better not raised. I don't much care what words would be used, so long as it's clear that the putative RG is not setting out to e.g. upend the IETF's BCPs on these topics. There are real tensions and challenges created by encrypting more and better, and in reducing uses of identifiers to be more privacy-friendly, but IMO successfully investigating those issues requires being explicit that one is not aiming to weaken things like e2e security as a feature of Internet protocols. Cheers, S. This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk --_000_MMXP123MB0847AC90F1811721351B22D8D7EC0MMXP123MB0847GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Stephen,

Thank you for your comments! Great to hear you think the work here could be= interesting.

I hope I can clarify what the proposed RG is about, and get your support.&n= bsp;I can reassure you are correct in believing what our aims are -&nb= sp;we are not trying to weaken the privacy aspect of protocols, and it= is not the intention of the RG to propose modifications to IETF protocols - we want cyber defence methods to co-exist along encryp= tion, rather than seeking to break or weaken it. Hopefully, as you say, stating this explicitly = in our charter will let us investigate these real tensions and challenges without raising any hackles.

The draft charte= r is still up for discussion, so we can certainly change the phrase = ;"will= investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be met in a world of= encrypted data". I know you said you don't much care what words are used, but do you h= ave any thoughts on to better say what we mean? How does somethin= g like "
I hope this allays your concerns, and I welcome any furt= her input you (or others) might have.

Kirsty



From: Smart <smart-bounc= es@irtf.org> on behalf of Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&= gt;
Sent: 27 September 2018 21:08
To: smart@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG
 

Hiya,

I think there's work here that could be interesting, so
I'd be supportive of what I hope this RG might be about,
but I'm not quite sure...

I would be re-assured if the charter was explicit that
the putative RG is not trying to break or weaken the
security aspects of IETF protocols. I believe that that
is the case - after all the overwhelming majority of
people using the Internet, including those defending
the security of systems, really need those security
features - but given the history, the "in a world of
encrypted data" is the kind of phrase that could raise
hackles, and hackles are better not raised.

I don't much care what words would be used, so long as
it's clear that the putative RG is not setting out to
e.g. upend the IETF's BCPs on these topics.

There are real tensions and challenges created by encrypting
more and better, and in reducing uses of identifiers to be
more privacy-friendly, but IMO successfully investigating
those issues requires being explicit that one is not aiming
to weaken things like e2e security as a feature of Internet
protocols.

Cheers,
S.
This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. 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Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSyD1skyLU2g; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 13:08:05 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.63.12] (cswireless63-12.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.63.12]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8AA58BE2C; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 13:08:05 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1538136485; bh=rsXSlgDHfzQf/kcQvZfIOJtB09GLyBp1YQuyXVeN4AM=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EulToNVrHxbpF2Wlms045Nvj/eoEtW8DsRm5fF1Gd4K55DNgDA8jW8QUT13cB/sAm cb+adrBgarurPqz+IoZT234uEui2BGJ/guGrcXjwp/fR6aSbNOwX7pvqJaXM10iUph NEOjpaNU3ojiay3Ab8fjNsWV0z8pC8DzJ9id5OSs= To: Kirsty P , "smart@irtf.org" References: <666e3975-9fd7-24a9-57ec-53096b9fda1a@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <9e187de0-f816-5c75-8b1f-dc2edc3ea653@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 13:08:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nuQFhYDFxS5lYfVQk9Zf3vBOvRbM0mZCM" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 12:08:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nuQFhYDFxS5lYfVQk9Zf3vBOvRbM0mZCM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="tMKtNFJFuxfECgvf79srzejs03Ry0oCnW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Kirsty P , "smart@irtf.org" Message-ID: <9e187de0-f816-5c75-8b1f-dc2edc3ea653@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG References: <666e3975-9fd7-24a9-57ec-53096b9fda1a@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --tMKtNFJFuxfECgvf79srzejs03Ry0oCnW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1285301E739DF7752A43C1AD" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1285301E739DF7752A43C1AD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 28/09/18 12:22, Kirsty P wrote: > How does something like "will investigate how cyber attack defence > requirements can be met without weakening the protection afforded by > encryption" sound to you? Sounds like a good start. Maybe referring to some relevant IETF BCPs might be useful (e.g. BCP200, BCP188) and/or the IAB statement [1] on confidentiality) as being foundational things from which this RG wants to build? I think another aspect is also worth a mention - to improve privacy, we'll also often want to deal with identifiers differently from how we've done that in the past, e.g. to use identifiers that are less personally identifying or less stable or to remove them entirely from some protocols or just not put them in new protocols. And that creates a different tension between privacy and defence. As examples - in the case of mail there was a discussion a few years ago on eliding IP addresses from Received: header fields but even though that's already done by some large mail service providers, the idea of standardising that freaked out some anti-spam folks:-) In the case of DHCP, we ended up developing a privacy-friendly profile so that e.g. clients don't spew their hostname all the time (RFC7844). So I'd also suggest adding a bit of text ack'ing that such non-crypto privacy goals are as valid in the trade space as are desires to know who're the possible guilty parties for some misbehaviour. And in some cases the privacy goals may well win out over the defence goal to know who's doing what. Note that I'm not suggesting that everyone involved in the putative RG has to have inhaled all the same fumes as me, but given the tensions in this space and the history, I think it'd be good if this RG has explicitly bought in to IETF BCPs, so that anyone who's angling to modify those knows that that ought be done in/by the IETF and not via RG activity. Cheers, S. [1] https://www.iab.org/documents/correspondence-reports-documents/2014-2/iab= -statement-on-internet-confidentiality/ PS: I'm deliberately not suggesting specific wording because I think it's likely better if the words used come from yourself and other folks proposing this. --------------1285301E739DF7752A43C1AD Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FSsfNP-uTLoh for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 06:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FD5B124BE5 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 06:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id k64-v6so5373320oia.13 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 06:38:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; 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ABuFfoh8pyLO2irHFCkvQcut+DxgOdnUHEkoJG2jjj2uk82TNtGYGDPM Nbpg1AcY4hgGA+7w2WOiSPeVVmQ5CfBgGjR/wxSFV83W X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63xzyiBoBhiLWv7zMuXKkKE2pogEIPzGmwbCS2lT/xLpevmGLnKQnCiqwVGep/Lxe/laKRISWt2oLMZpn9dnyk= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5107:: with SMTP id f7-v6mr5961399oib.223.1538141884789; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 06:38:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:37:29 -0400 Message-ID: To: smart@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a8396c0576ee907f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 13:38:09 -0000 --000000000000a8396c0576ee907f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, For some reason I wasn't getting messages, so I am responding to the last on thread: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/smart/current/msg00008.html Thank you for the comments, Stephen. I'm in agreement with both you and Kirsty that the work will not be aimed at weakening any privacy or encryption measures, but rather developing new methods to detect and thwart attacks with encryption and less access to identifiers including randomized MAC addresses and other identifiers that have been removed or obfuscated in protocols. Adding some generalized text to these points makes sense including references to a few relevant BCPs. Thank you, Kathleen -- Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000a8396c0576ee907f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

For some reason I wasn't getting messages, so I am responding to the = last on thread:

Thank you for the comm= ents, Stephen.=C2=A0 I'm in agreement with both you and Kirsty that the= work will not be aimed at weakening any privacy or encryption measures, bu= t rather developing new methods to detect and thwart attacks with encryptio= n and less access to identifiers including randomized MAC addresses and oth= er identifiers that have been removed or obfuscated in protocols.

Adding some generalized text to these points makes sense in= cluding references to a few relevant BCPs.

Thank y= ou,
Kathleen


--

Best reg= ards,
Kathleen
--000000000000a8396c0576ee907f-- From nobody Fri Sep 28 08:17:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB1D126CB6 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:17:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LGx46d1hbS3I for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C239130DC7 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id c25-v6so7013199qtp.6 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:17:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=n04w6FWQTVyMj706nD6mkudeaqeSQ8rY+oK05KH3h2k=; b=VUopOQmTK259rLpFjSg4c6JaS89GkiDEZxo5/eAxJ9ULmg83z9KRRwQOyUiC9p+wxF g+ERspw6oWJUV30AhFlje348YyD0aqgn0iCMzru1883VsiRvjCp6kAdt+VC5hnNxt5To 5f7BJzZq7DWuQEssKw7quiXHkiJbwtcUJfYWm8jkTv8d43VC4Y2pcCDzuTc6gzE+eafA iPOB3K0UYdEcKPzKCbwuQgku9JtaFkGcrT0JQn8XZqU7gxFUXVnaqEUM15CMLdDKKuQZ oIomdAuV28ZiC6oLAt0xjqX9A4xDOWJERSXkztH1rIV+9rMuJhqVCEHQy+lmY56xZJV8 mqng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=n04w6FWQTVyMj706nD6mkudeaqeSQ8rY+oK05KH3h2k=; b=uXafTsy3cxPcQEu3Ag8i0RLDTrX1fIN0no9Q+hzkwNrHYmcXI4qbbrerJdnkRfg4aV V6YUNdV/uyjp0crrpv/PD2p/AXqc+/qTRQl3+iemWMma4gXzzY4yL2wLgVhEqHjVSHPe bZwm6Vs989Le/D8jY+mq4iGEycSdPl2VUIP56BSC06ATJK726ReGB+BuNjDlFlH+xO/G iwg+g3m0lVOeMakY3I0Z67O/lo24J+Wm048wtCTlRGC9Shr8EZjgp8/P8bLUiCPOpQ6U phX5cySwNMD/Bx/W84GKAiucjA4ZuQSF7RcYy78DFEvmr/rYZRgBWRrBSjU5/Q7RsTu8 U6XQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojRK7634hMFi6JEyt1Lnj8ZTAEMmcsJ4fXPjLx5/ru/ElDcEOLB Ba2GtMo5Uzpq8BOd9HGLVkoJ3gr/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62BjCu3pQtSSv1yjGM+hA2lwb1rORHY1hxHPz+WPXy20hA5QLJwo4k9yRdKGkUlBmEJdzcbqg== X-Received: by 2002:aed:3e12:: with SMTP id l18-v6mr5606037qtf.62.1538147824860; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:1017:b808:92cc:50e7:2c10:e0d5:fc66? ([2600:1017:b808:92cc:50e7:2c10:e0d5:fc66]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v7-v6sm2651687qkc.29.2018.09.28.08.17.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2CC258A9-6E3B-4203-B71E-A14A9ABB6315 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Bret Jordan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 11:16:57 -0400 Cc: "smart@irtf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <6B23EBEE-AD68-4FDE-87C1-4ECF1D9A08AF@gmail.com> References: To: Kirsty P Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:17:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail-2CC258A9-6E3B-4203-B71E-A14A9ABB6315 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kristy, et al., Are we planning on a meet up in Bangkok? This work along with the work in t= he CACAO project could really help protect end users and keep them safe.=20 Bret=20 Sent from my Commodore 128D PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 > On Sep 28, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Kirsty P wrote: >=20 > Bret, >=20 > Thanks for your encouraging words! If you have ideas for more topics that s= hould be covered in the short-term, please feel free to share with the list.= >=20 > Kirsty >=20 > From: Bret Jordan > Sent: 27 September 2018 22:59:04 > To: Kirsty P > Cc: smart@irtf.org > Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG > =20 > Kristy and RG ET al., >=20 > I think this charter sounds great and covers most of the areas we need to a= ddress in the short-term. Great work. The deliverables outlined so far will= greatly assist the community for years to come. >=20 > Bret=20 >=20 > Sent from my Commodore 128D >=20 > PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 >=20 > On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P wrote: >=20 >> This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping Malwa= re and Researching Threats (SMART). >>=20 >> Your thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to the list w= ith your comments! - and keep an eye out for a list of proposed research pro= blems soon... >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> # Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - Draft Ch= arter >>=20 >>=20 >> ## BACKGROUND >>=20 >> The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or SMART RG)= will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be met in a worl= d of encrypted data. It will research the effects, both positive and negativ= e, of existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Internet standard= s on attack defence. It will gather evidence from information security pract= itioners on methods used to defend against attacks and make this available t= o protocol designers. As a result, designers, implementers and users of new p= rotocols will be better informed about the possible impact on attack prevent= ion and mitigation. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research and evidence to= the IETF. This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol chang= es where relevant and stimulate methodical research into attack defence meth= ods for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously assessed for their s= ecurity properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also rigorously a= ssessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a fuller understandi= ng of the value for such change, enabling a better engineered Internet. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ## AIMS >>=20 >> This research group has these major aims: >>=20 >> To bring evidence on attacks and the methods that are or could be used to= defend against them to the attention of the IETF. >> To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive and negative, of= new protocols and updates to existing protocols. >> To stimulate and generate research into attack defence methods for new pr= otocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of new and exi= sting methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks. >> To provide systematic guidance to designers of new protocols as to what a= ttack defence considerations to review, and to inform implementers by defaul= t about the effects of new protocols on attack defence. >> To produce problem statements that describe key issues in cyber security f= or the group to research (initial research project ideas are listed below). >> =20 >>=20 >> ## OUTPUTS >>=20 >> The research group plans to create documents that may include, but are no= t limited to, the following: >>=20 >> Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through the IRTF R= FC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use cases, case st= udies and convey research results. They will be written for use by other gro= ups to inform protocol design. >> Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the relationship b= etween attack defence and the Internet architecture and protocols. >> Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of actual attacks and t= he success of defence methods against them, as well as theoretical and forma= l analyses of the implications of proposed protocols on attack defence. Defe= nce methods will be analyzed to determine if there are ways to optimize in o= rder to better scale attack detection and mitigation. >> Survey of current and historic IETF material to discover existing deliber= ations on attack defence. >> Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable researche= rs to conduct experiments and report results that are useful to designers of= protocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of the effects of pro= tocols on attack defence backed by evidence from real-world attacks, laborat= ory-based testing and theoretical analysis of protocols, through the analysi= s lens of attacks, detection methods and systematic assessment methodologies= . >> Within the first year, the research group aims to: >>=20 >> Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection methods=E2=80=AFand determine th= e=E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods against different a= ttack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, C&C, endpoint malware)= >> Publish case studies of historical attacks and make recommendations where= attacks could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented >> Publish an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence Considera= tions for Protocol Design and Deployment". >>=20 >>=20 >> ## MEMBERSHIP >>=20 >> Membership is open to any interested parties who intend to remain current= with the published documents and mailing list issues. Wide participation fr= om industry, academia, government and non-profits is encouraged. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOI= A) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk >> --=20 >> Smart mailing list >> Smart@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart > This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA= ) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk --Apple-Mail-2CC258A9-6E3B-4203-B71E-A14A9ABB6315 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kristy, et al.,

Are we p= lanning on a meet up in Bangkok?  This work along with the work in the C= ACAO project could really help protect end users and keep them safe. 

Bret 

Sent from my Commodor= e 128D
=
PGP Fingerprint:&= nbsp;63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050<= /span>

On Sep 28, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk> wrote:

=

Bret,


Thanks for your encouraging words= ! If you have ideas for more topics that should be covered in the s= hort-term, please feel free to share with the list.

Ki= rsty

From: Bret Jordan <jordan.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: 27 September 2018 22:59:04
To: Kirsty P
Cc: smart@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG
 
Kristy and RG ET al.,

I think this charter sounds great and covers most of the areas we need t= o address in the short-term.  Great work. The deliverables outlined so f= ar will greatly assist the community for years to come.

Bret 

Sent from my Commodore 128D

PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415= 0050

On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

This is the draft chart= er for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping Malware and Researchi= ng Threats (SMART).

Your thoughts and&= nbsp;suggestions are very welcome - please post to the list with your c= omments! - and keep an eye out for&nbs= p;a list of proposed research problems soon...



# Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - Draft Charter


## BACKGROUND

The Stopping Malware a= nd Researching Threats Research Group (or SMART RG) will investigate how cyb= er attack defence requirements can be met in a world of encrypted data. It w= ill research the effects, both positive and negative, of existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Inter= net standards on attack defence. It will gather evidence from information se= curity practitioners on methods used to defend against attacks and make this= available to protocol designers. As a result, designers, implementers and users of new protocols will be bet= ter informed about the possible impact on attack prevention and mitigation.


The IRTF is in a uniqu= e position to provide this research and evidence to the IETF. This research g= roup aims to describe the effect of protocol changes where relevant and stim= ulate methodical research into attack defence methods for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously assesse= d for their security properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are als= o rigorously assessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a full= er understanding of the value for such change, enabling a better engineered Internet.



## AIMS<= /p>

This research group ha= s these major aims:

  • To bring evidence on attacks<= /b> and the methods that are or could be used to defend against them to the a= ttention of the IETF.
  • To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both po= sitive and negative, of new protocols and updates to existing protocols.
  • To stimulate and genera= te research into attack defence methods for new protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community o= f new and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks.
  • To pro= vide systematic guidance to designers of new protocols as t= o what attack defence considerations to review, and to inform implementers b= y default about the effects of new protocols on attack defence.
  • To produce proble= m statements that describe key issues in cyber security for the group to= research (initial research project ideas are listed below).

 

## OUTPUTS

The research group pla= ns to create documents that may include, but are not limited to, the followi= ng:

  • Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through t= he IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use cases= , case studies and convey research results. They will be written for use by other groups to inform protocol design.
  • Policy p= apers, for in-depth analysis and dis= cussion of the relationship between attack defence and the Internet architec= ture and protocols.
  • Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of a= ctual attacks and the success of defence methods against them, as well as th= eoretical and formal analyses of the implications of proposed protocols on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed t= o determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better scale attack de= tection and mitigation.
  • Survey of current an= d historic IETF material to discover existing deliberations on attack defenc= e.
  • Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable r= esearchers to conduct experiments and report results that are useful to desi= gners of protocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by eviden= ce from real-world attacks, laboratory-based te= sting and theoretical analysis of protocols, through the analysis lens of at= tacks, detection methods and systematic assessment methodologies.

Within the first year,= the research group aims to:

  • Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection me= thods=E2=80=AFand determine the=E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80= =AFmethods against different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, sp= ambots, C&C, endpoint malware)
  • Publish case studies of histori= cal attacks and make recommendations where attacks could have been stopped m= ore quickly, or even prevented
  • Publish an Informational RFC, t= itled: "Important Attack Defence Considerations for Protocol Design and Depl= oyment".


## MEMBERSHIP

Membership is open to a= ny interested parties who intend to remain current with the published docume= nts and mailing list issues. Wide participation from industry, academia, gov= ernment and non-profits is encouraged.





This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) a= nd may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA quer= ies to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk
This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) a= nd may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA quer= ies to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk
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From: "David McGrew (mcgrew)" To: Kirsty P , "smart@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG Thread-Index: AQHUVq1WdAw7d8Bo+EymUcmgu7E5/6UF6OYA Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:48:50 +0000 Message-ID: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.15.1.160411 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.6.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_064F1F53248C4BBD8C2D59A4F71874DBciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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PHNwYW4+PGEgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOlNtYXJ0QGlydGYub3JnIj5TbWFydEBpcnRmLm9yZzwvYT48 L3NwYW4+PGJyPg0KPHNwYW4+PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaXJ0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9zbWFydCI+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaXJ0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zbWFy dDwvYT48L3NwYW4+PGJyPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0K PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L3NwYW4+PC9zcGFuPg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_064F1F53248C4BBD8C2D59A4F71874DBciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Sep 28 09:05:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB46130E61 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DdBorvxeGmTk for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F4231126CC7 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id j68-v6so5849828oib.7 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:05:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yF6LvLaCQwbhbzQXLNxHJ5pSyc4hCpbu4KK8TO3oNT8=; 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ABuFfoiBmMBdStPJ4jRP7IoaURjnyOno06LIcKbJxhMKd2NNTkPOVzeX vuDqZen2e6QxNwRA+kFvMKKTzGL3YjjUS2LwrHA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62Z5GEHxDP/0XfmvQZNqXQvMW5H5y7rZ4cwbRJiInuUiQaBNa1w9+jPz751TKafmblk2OWLva1alWNNjCwtDT4= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5107:: with SMTP id f7-v6mr6298607oib.223.1538150708978; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:05:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 12:04:32 -0400 Message-ID: To: David McGrew Cc: Kirsty.p=40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org, smart@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009ea98c0576f09ec9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:05:26 -0000 --0000000000009ea98c0576f09ec9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi David, Thank you very much for the detailed feedback. I have limited time at the moment, but was the one who helped remove the word cyber from earlier versions of the charter in an effort to use terms that are well understood. Do you have a suggestion that improves from attack defense, but doesn't include cyber? Sorry for the top post on very helpful feedback (more on that later from at least one of us). Glad to see you engaged in the conversation! Best regards, Kathleen On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:49 AM David McGrew (mcgrew) wrote: > Hi Kirsty and others, > > Thanks for doing this; I very much like the idea of forming an RG that > addresses these issues. An RG where protocol geeks can talk to the threa= t > defense community would be goodness. > > Some detailed comments below. Please don=E2=80=99t misinterpret these c= omments > as being negative on the idea of the RG; the intent is to refine the > charter. > > I like Stephen=E2=80=99s suggestions of making it an explicit goal to pre= serve > privacy, and citing BCPs. > > More inline: > > > On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P < > Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping > Malware and Researching Threats (SMART). > > Your thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to the list > with your comments! - and keep an eye out for a list of proposed research > problems soon... > > > > # Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - Draft > Charter > > > ## BACKGROUND > > The first paragraph below probably should precede the Background heading. > I suggest adding a background that outlines cybersecurity issues like t= he > cost of data breaches and the high time-to-detection. > > The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or SMART RG) > will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be met in a > world of encrypted data. > > I suggest moving the =E2=80=9Cworld of encrypted data=E2=80=9D out of the= intro sentence, > and relegating it to somewhere further down. It=E2=80=99s important, but= not the > only consideration, and we don=E2=80=99t want to give people the false im= pression > that the RG is about backdoors in crypto or other ulterior motives. The > following sentence would be a good opener. > > It will research the effects, both positive and negative, of existing, > proposed and newly published protocols and Internet standards on attack > defence. > > I suggest replacing =E2=80=9Cattack defense=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Ccybers= ecurity=E2=80=9D throughout, and > defining cybersecurity as including the security of the information and t= he > computers and communication systems. My thinking here is that we should > emphasize that SMART is considering the security aspects beyond just the > communication security of the protocols. It might be worth adding > something about how endpoint system security is at least as important as > protocol/communication security, as it doesn=E2=80=99t matter how wise on= e is about > cryptography if the attacker can exfiltrate their keys. > > On =E2=80=9Cnegative effects=E2=80=9D, what we are most concerned with ar= e negative > externalities in an economic sense, that is, unintended costs or harm tha= t > people who design, implement, deploy, and operate protocols on the intern= et > can cause to others. It would be good to call this out in the charter. > It is already best current practice to avoid negative externalities in th= e > context of DoS attacks (RFC4732, say), and it would be healthy for the > internet to have the RG consider externalities around other types of > threats. For instance, the interaction between IP blacklisting and Tor, = as > presented by Singh et. al. at ANRW 18 ( > https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&coll=3DDL) deserves= more > discussion. > > It will gather evidence from information security practitioners on method= s > used to defend against attacks and make this available to protocol > designers. As a result, designers, implementers and users of new protocol= s > will be better informed about the possible impact on attack prevention an= d > mitigation. > > I suggest using =E2=80=9Cprotocol designers, implementers, and users=E2= =80=9D throughout, > instead of focusing on protocol designers. Also, it might be good to > think even more broadly here, because what network and server operators d= o > (or don=E2=80=99t do) can have important effects (e.g. spoofing due to th= e lack of > ingress filtering, and vulnerable servers used to launch attacks). > > > The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research and evidence to > the IETF. > > It=E2=80=99s a good idea to focus on research and evidence, especially ar= ound > malicious activity observed on the internet or network behaviors seen in > malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc. > > This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol changes where > relevant and stimulate methodical research into attack defence methods fo= r > new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously assessed for their securi= ty > properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also rigorously > assessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a fuller > understanding of the value for such change, enabling a better engineered > Internet. > > Instead of =E2=80=9Cattack defence methods=E2=80=9D in the above, I sugge= st something like > =E2=80=9Cimpact on cybersecurity=E2=80=9D. > > > > ## AIMS > > This research group has these major aims: > > - To bring *evidence on attacks* and the methods that are or could be > used to defend against them to the attention of the IETF. > > More generally, I think we would like to see research on malicious networ= k > behavior. > > > - > - To highlight the *attack mitigation impact*, both positive and > negative, *of new protocols* and updates to existing protocols. > > Instead of =E2=80=9Cnew protocols=E2=80=9D I suggest =E2=80=9Cprotocol de= sign, deployment, and > operation=E2=80=9D. > > > - > - *To stimulate and generate research into attack defence methods* for > new protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of= new > and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks. > - To provide *systematic guidance* to designers of new protocols as to > what attack defence considerations to review, and to inform implemente= rs by > default about the effects of new protocols on attack defence. > - To produce *problem statements* that describe key issues in cyber > security for the group to research (initial research project ideas are > listed below). > > I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right after the first > bullet, as the RG should be presenting research findings first, then > creating problem statements, then proposing solutions. > > I think =E2=80=9Csystematic guidance to designers of new protocols=E2=80= =9D is an > ambitious goal. It would be nice to have the goal written in a way that = it > would be easier to make progress against. It can be difficult for an RG > to make timely progress, so from the point of view of the process and the > IRTF chairs and the RG chairs, it would be nice to have some more modest = or > intermediary goals against which headway could be made. > > I would like to see a goal like =E2=80=9CTo stimulate and generate resear= ch on > network protocols and practices that minimize impact on third parties=E2= =80=9D or > something like that. > > > > ## OUTPUTS > > The research group plans to create documents that may include, but are no= t > limited to, the following: > > - *Internet drafts*,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through th= e IRTF > RFC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use cases, = case > studies and convey research results. They will be written for use by o= ther > groups to inform protocol design. > > A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience are just the RG > members. Also, I think it best to say =E2=80=9Cdesign, deployment, and = use=E2=80=9D. > > > - > - *Policy papers*, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the > relationship between attack defence and the Internet architecture and > protocols. > - *Research papers*, containing quantitative evidence of actual > attacks and the success of defence methods against them, as well as > theoretical and formal analyses of the implications of proposed protoc= ols > on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed to determine if th= ere > are ways to optimize in order to better scale attack detection and > mitigation. > - *Survey* of current and historic IETF material to discover existing > deliberations on attack defence. > - *Best practice papers*, describing methodologies that will enable > researchers to conduct experiments and report results that are useful = to > designers of protocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of = the > effects of protocols on attack defence backed by evidence from real-wo= rld > attacks, laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of > protocols, through the analysis lens of attacks, detection methods and > systematic assessment methodologies. > > It is not clear how the papers would relate to the drafts and the RFCs. > It is probably best to say that the RG will invite presentations and > discussions of research, policy, and survey papers published elsewhere. > That would help to bring researchers and their results into the RG, while > still allowing them to publish in peer-reviewed venues. > > I suggest having a goal like =E2=80=9CPromoting communication between the= IETF > community and the cyber threat defense community, through discussions > online and in regular meetings=E2=80=9D. > > > Within the first year, the research group aims to: > > - Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection methods=E2=80=AFand determi= ne the=E2=80=AFrelative > effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods against different attack defenc= e threats > (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, C&C, endpoint malware) > - Publish case studies of historical attacks and make recommendations > where attacks could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented > - Publish an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence > Considerations for Protocol Design and Deployment". > > > ## MEMBERSHIP > > Membership is open to any interested parties who intend to remain current > with the published documents and mailing list issues. Wide participation > from industry, academia, government and non-profits is encouraged. > > This is really good, thanks again for taking the initiative with this. > > Best regards, > > David > > > > > > This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 > (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer an= y > FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk > > -- > Smart mailing list > Smart@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart > > -- > Smart mailing list > Smart@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000009ea98c0576f09ec9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi David,

Thank you very much for the d= etailed feedback.=C2=A0 I have limited time at the moment, but was the one = who helped remove the word cyber from earlier versions of the charter in an= effort to use terms that are well understood.=C2=A0 Do you have a suggesti= on that improves from attack defense, but doesn't include cyber?=C2=A0 = Sorry for the top post on very helpful feedback (more on that later from at= least one of us).

Glad to see you engaged in the = conversation!

Best regards,
Kathleen


Hi Kirsty and others,

Thanks for doing this; I very much like the idea of forming an RG that= addresses these issues.=C2=A0 An RG where protocol geeks can talk to the t= hreat defense community would be goodness. =C2=A0

Some detailed comments below. =C2=A0 Please don=E2=80=99t misinterpret= these comments as being negative on the idea of the RG; the intent is to r= efine the charter. =C2=A0

I like Stephen=E2=80=99s suggestions of making it an explicit goal to prese= rve privacy, and citing BCPs. =C2=A0=C2=A0

More inline:


On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.= ietf.org> wrote:

This is the d= raft charter for the Proposed Research=C2=A0Group:=C2=A0Stopping Malware an= d Researching Threats (SMART).

Your thoughts= =C2=A0and=C2=A0suggestions are very=C2=A0welcome - please post to the list = with your comments! - and keep an eye out for=C2=A0a list of proposed research problems soon...



# Stopping Malware and Resea= rching Threats (SMART)=C2=A0Proposed RG -=C2=A0Draft Charter


##=C2=A0BA= CKGROUND
The first paragraph below probably should precede the Background heading. = =C2=A0 I suggest adding a background that outlines cybersecurity issues lik= e the cost of data breaches and the high time-to-detection.

The Stopping Malware and Researchi= ng Threats Research Group (or SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack d= efence requirements can be met in a world of encrypted data.
I suggest moving the =E2=80=9Cworld of encrypted data=E2=80=9D out of = the intro sentence, and relegating it to somewhere further down.=C2=A0 It= =E2=80=99s important, but not the only consideration, and we don=E2=80=99t = want to give people the false impression that the RG is about backdoors in crypto or other ulterior motives.=C2=A0 The following sentence would be= a good opener.

It will research the effects, both= positive and negative, of existing, proposed and newly published protocols= and Internet standards on attack defence.
I suggest replacing =E2=80=9Cattack defense=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Ccybersec= urity=E2=80=9D throughout, and defining cybersecurity as including the secu= rity of the information and the computers and communication systems. =C2=A0= My thinking here is that we should emphasize that SMART is considering the security aspects beyond just the communication security of the protoco= ls.=C2=A0 It might be worth adding something about how endpoint system secu= rity is at least as important as protocol/communication security, as it doe= sn=E2=80=99t matter how wise one is about cryptography if the attacker can exfiltrate their keys. =C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0
On =E2=80=9Cnegative effects=E2=80=9D, what we are most concerned with are = negative externalities in an economic sense, that is, unintended costs or h= arm that people who design, implement, deploy, and operate protocols on the= internet can cause to others. =C2=A0 =C2=A0It would be good to call this out in the charter.=C2=A0 It is already best current practice= to avoid negative externalities in the context of DoS attacks (RFC4732, sa= y), and it would be healthy for the internet to have the RG consider extern= alities around other types of threats. =C2=A0For instance, the interaction between IP blacklisting and Tor, as pr= esented by Singh et. al. at ANRW 18 (https://dl.= acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&coll=3DDL) deserves = more discussion. =C2=A0

It will gather evidence from infor= mation security practitioners on methods used to defend against attacks and= make this available to protocol designers. As a result, designers, impleme= nters and users of new protocols will be better informed about the possible impact on attack prevention and= mitigation.
=C2=A0I suggest using =E2=80=9Cproto= col designers, implementers, and users=E2=80=9D throughout, instead of focu= sing on protocol designers. =C2=A0 Also, it might be good to think even mor= e broadly here, because what network and server operators do (or don=E2=80=99t do) can have important effects (e.g. spoofing due to the= lack of ingress filtering, and vulnerable servers used to launch=C2=A0attacks). =C2=A0=C2=A0


The IRTF is in a unique position t= o provide this research and evidence to the IETF.

It=E2=80=99s a good idea to focus on research and evidence, especially= around malicious activity observed on the internet or network behaviors se= en in malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc. =C2=A0

This research group aims to descri= be the effect of protocol changes where relevant and stimulate methodical r= esearch into attack defence methods for new protocols. Protocols are alread= y rigorously assessed for their security properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also rigorous= ly assessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a fuller unders= tanding of the value for such change, enabling a better engineered Internet= .
Instead of =E2=80=9Cattack defence methods=E2=80=9D in the above, I su= ggest something like =E2=80=9Cimpact on cybersecurity=E2=80=9D.



##=C2=A0AI= MS

This research group has these majo= r aims:

  • To bring evidence on attacks and the methods t= hat are or could be used to defend against them to the attention of the IET= F.
More generally, I think we would like to see research on malicious net= work behavior.
  • To highlight= the attack mitigation impact, both positive and negative, of new protocols and updates to existing protocols.
Instead of =E2=80=9Cnew protocols=E2=80=9D I suggest =E2=80=9Cprotocol= design, deployment, and operation=E2=80=9D.
  • To stimulate and= generate research into attack defence methods= for new protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of= new and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks.
  • To provide sy= stematic guidance to designers of new protocols as to what attack defen= ce considerations to review, and to inform implementers by default about th= e effects of new protocols on attack defence.
  • To produce problem statements that= describe key issues in cyber security for the group to research (initial r= esearch project ideas are listed below).
I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right after the first = bullet, as the RG should be presenting research findings first, then creati= ng problem statements, then proposing solutions. =C2=A0 =C2=A0

I think =E2=80=9Csystematic guidance to designers of new protocols=E2= =80=9D is an ambitious goal.=C2=A0 It would be nice to have the goal writte= n in a way that it would be easier to make progress against. =C2=A0 It can = be difficult for an RG to make timely progress, so from the point of view of the process and the IRTF chairs and the RG chairs, it wou= ld be nice to have some more modest or intermediary goals against which hea= dway could be made.

I would like to see a goal like =E2=80=9CTo stimulate and generate res= earch on network protocols and practices that minimize impact on third part= ies=E2=80=9D or something like that. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

##=C2=A0OU= TPUTS

The research group plans to create= documents that may include, but are not limited to, the following:

  • Internet drafts,=E2= =80=AFsome of which may be published through the IRTF RFC stream. These wil= l include outline problem statements, use cases, case studies and convey re= search results. They will be written for use by other groups to inform protocol design.<= /li>
A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience are just the RG mem= bers. =C2=A0 Also, I think it best to say =E2=80=9Cdesign, deployment, and = use=E2=80=9D.
  • Policy pa= pers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of = the relationship between attack defence and the Internet architecture and p= rotocols.
  • Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of actual attacks and the succes= s of defence methods against them, as well as theoretical and formal analys= es of the implications of proposed protocols on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed = to determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better scale attack = detection and mitigation.
  • Survey= =C2=A0of=C2=A0current and historic IETF material to d= iscover existing deliberations on attack defence.
  • Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable researchers to condu= ct experiments and report results that are useful to designers of protocols= . These methodologies will give descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by evide= nce from real-world=C2=A0attacks, laboratory-based testing and= theoretical analysis of protocols, through the analysis lens of attacks, d= etection methods and systematic assessment methodologies.
It is not clear how the papers would relate to the drafts and the RFCs= . =C2=A0 It is probably best to say that the RG will invite presentations a= nd discussions of research, policy, and survey papers published elsewhere. = =C2=A0 That would help to bring researchers and their results into the RG, while still allowing them to publish in pee= r-reviewed venues. =C2=A0

I suggest having a goal like =E2=80=9CPromoting communication between = the IETF community and the cyber threat defense community, through discussi= ons online and in regular meetings=E2=80=9D. =C2=A0=C2=A0


Within the first year, the researc= h group aims to:

  • Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection methods=E2= =80=AFand determine the=E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmet= hods against different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambot= s, C&C, endpoint malware)
  • Publish case studies of historical attack= s and make recommendations where attacks could have been stopped more quick= ly, or even prevented
  • Publish an Informational RFC, titled: &qu= ot;Important Attack Defence Considerations for Protocol Design and Deployme= nt".


##=C2=A0ME= MBERSHIP

Membership is open to any interest= ed parties who intend to remain current with the published documents and ma= iling list issues. Wide participation from industry, academia, government a= nd non-profits is encouraged.
This is really good, thanks again for taking the initiative with this.=

Best regards,

David





This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@nc= sc.gov.uk
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Best regards,
Kathleen
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15.00.1395.000; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 11:26:34 -0500 From: "David McGrew (mcgrew)" To: Kathleen Moriarty CC: "Kirsty.p=40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org" , "smart@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG Thread-Index: AQHUVq1WdAw7d8Bo+EymUcmgu7E5/6UF6OYAgABHcwD//8MYAA== Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:26:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.15.1.160411 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.6.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AFBF879B76384B83B986FC12C44753E3ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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([2605:a601:3260:266:5d7b:d07e:94bf:2baa]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l145-v6sm2154564ywe.105.2018.09.28.15.22.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:22:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FEDFE2F8-0260-41FD-8B98-B5E81F87E433" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:21:52 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: Kathleen Moriarty , "smart@irtf.org" , "Kirsty.p=40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org" To: "David McGrew (mcgrew)" References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 22:22:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FEDFE2F8-0260-41FD-8B98-B5E81F87E433 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I think the use of cyber security and cyber defense are well understood = in the market and I am personally okay with their use. Given the target = audience of a lot of these work products, the use of cyber* will be more = wildly accepted than some of the other terms that will just be found to = be confusing. Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Sep 28, 2018, at 10:26 AM, David McGrew (mcgrew) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Kathleen, >=20 > Please see inline: >=20 > From: Kathleen Moriarty > > Date: Friday, September 28, 2018 at 12:04 PM > To: mcgrew > > Cc: "Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org = " = >, "smart@irtf.org = " > > Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG >=20 >> Hi David, >>=20 >> Thank you very much for the detailed feedback. I have limited time = at the moment, but was the one who helped remove the word cyber from = earlier versions of the charter in an effort to use terms that are well = understood. Do you have a suggestion that improves from attack defense, = but doesn't include cyber?=20 >=20 >=20 > Not off the top of my head, but I agree with the need to use well = defined terms, because we hope to engage multiple communities. Perhaps = we would be better off defining exactly what we mean. I had actually = looked through RFC4949 for a reference, with no luck. =20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > David >=20 >=20 >> Sorry for the top post on very helpful feedback (more on that later = from at least one of us). >>=20 >> Glad to see you engaged in the conversation! >>=20 >> Best regards, >> Kathleen >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:49 AM David McGrew (mcgrew) = > wrote: >>> Hi Kirsty and others, >>>=20 >>> Thanks for doing this; I very much like the idea of forming an RG = that addresses these issues. An RG where protocol geeks can talk to the = threat defense community would be goodness. =20 >>>=20 >>> Some detailed comments below. Please don=E2=80=99t misinterpret = these comments as being negative on the idea of the RG; the intent is to = refine the charter. =20 >>>=20 >>> I like Stephen=E2=80=99s suggestions of making it an explicit goal = to preserve privacy, and citing BCPs. =20 >>>=20 >>> More inline: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P = > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: = Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART). >>>>> Your thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to = the list with your comments! - and keep an eye out for a list of = proposed research problems soon... >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> # Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - = Draft Charter >>>>>=20 >>>>> ## BACKGROUND >>>=20 >>> The first paragraph below probably should precede the Background = heading. I suggest adding a background that outlines cybersecurity = issues like the cost of data breaches and the high time-to-detection. >>>>> The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or = SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be = met in a world of encrypted data. >>>=20 >>> I suggest moving the =E2=80=9Cworld of encrypted data=E2=80=9D out = of the intro sentence, and relegating it to somewhere further down. = It=E2=80=99s important, but not the only consideration, and we don=E2=80=99= t want to give people the false impression that the RG is about = backdoors in crypto or other ulterior motives. The following sentence = would be a good opener. >>>>> It will research the effects, both positive and negative, of = existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Internet standards = on attack defence. >>>=20 >>> I suggest replacing =E2=80=9Cattack defense=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9Ccybersecurity=E2=80=9D throughout, and defining cybersecurity = as including the security of the information and the computers and = communication systems. My thinking here is that we should emphasize = that SMART is considering the security aspects beyond just the = communication security of the protocols. It might be worth adding = something about how endpoint system security is at least as important as = protocol/communication security, as it doesn=E2=80=99t matter how wise = one is about cryptography if the attacker can exfiltrate their keys. =20 >>> =20 >>> On =E2=80=9Cnegative effects=E2=80=9D, what we are most concerned = with are negative externalities in an economic sense, that is, = unintended costs or harm that people who design, implement, deploy, and = operate protocols on the internet can cause to others. It would be = good to call this out in the charter. It is already best current = practice to avoid negative externalities in the context of DoS attacks = (RFC4732, say), and it would be healthy for the internet to have the RG = consider externalities around other types of threats. For instance, the = interaction between IP blacklisting and Tor, as presented by Singh et. = al. at ANRW 18 = (https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&coll=3DDL = ) = deserves more discussion. =20 >>>>> It will gather evidence from information security practitioners on = methods used to defend against attacks and make this available to = protocol designers. As a result, designers, implementers and users of = new protocols will be better informed about the possible impact on = attack prevention and mitigation. >>>=20 >>> I suggest using =E2=80=9Cprotocol designers, implementers, and = users=E2=80=9D throughout, instead of focusing on protocol designers. = Also, it might be good to think even more broadly here, because what = network and server operators do (or don=E2=80=99t do) can have important = effects (e.g. spoofing due to the lack of ingress filtering, and = vulnerable servers used to launch attacks). =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research and = evidence to the IETF. >>>=20 >>> It=E2=80=99s a good idea to focus on research and evidence, = especially around malicious activity observed on the internet or network = behaviors seen in malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc. =20 >>>>> This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol = changes where relevant and stimulate methodical research into attack = defence methods for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously = assessed for their security properties, but ensuring attack defence = methods are also rigorously assessed alongside protocol design changes = would provide a fuller understanding of the value for such change, = enabling a better engineered Internet. >>>=20 >>> Instead of =E2=80=9Cattack defence methods=E2=80=9D in the above, I = suggest something like =E2=80=9Cimpact on cybersecurity=E2=80=9D. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> ## AIMS >>>>> This research group has these major aims: >>>>> To bring evidence on attacks and the methods that are or could be = used to defend against them to the attention of the IETF. >>>=20 >>> More generally, I think we would like to see research on malicious = network behavior. >>>>> To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive and = negative, of new protocols and updates to existing protocols. >>>=20 >>> Instead of =E2=80=9Cnew protocols=E2=80=9D I suggest =E2=80=9Cprotocol= design, deployment, and operation=E2=80=9D. >>>>> To stimulate and generate research into attack defence methods for = new protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of = new and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks. >>>>> To provide systematic guidance to designers of new protocols as to = what attack defence considerations to review, and to inform implementers = by default about the effects of new protocols on attack defence. >>>>> To produce problem statements that describe key issues in cyber = security for the group to research (initial research project ideas are = listed below). >>>=20 >>> I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right after the = first bullet, as the RG should be presenting research findings first, = then creating problem statements, then proposing solutions. =20 >>>=20 >>> I think =E2=80=9Csystematic guidance to designers of new = protocols=E2=80=9D is an ambitious goal. It would be nice to have the = goal written in a way that it would be easier to make progress against. = It can be difficult for an RG to make timely progress, so from the = point of view of the process and the IRTF chairs and the RG chairs, it = would be nice to have some more modest or intermediary goals against = which headway could be made. >>>=20 >>> I would like to see a goal like =E2=80=9CTo stimulate and generate = research on network protocols and practices that minimize impact on = third parties=E2=80=9D or something like that. =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> ## OUTPUTS >>>>> The research group plans to create documents that may include, but = are not limited to, the following: >>>>> Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through = the IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use = cases, case studies and convey research results. They will be written = for use by other groups to inform protocol design. >>>=20 >>> A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience are just the RG = members. Also, I think it best to say =E2=80=9Cdesign, deployment, and = use=E2=80=9D. >>>>> Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the = relationship between attack defence and the Internet architecture and = protocols. >>>>> Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of actual = attacks and the success of defence methods against them, as well as = theoretical and formal analyses of the implications of proposed = protocols on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed to = determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better scale attack = detection and mitigation. >>>>> Survey of current and historic IETF material to discover existing = deliberations on attack defence. >>>>> Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable = researchers to conduct experiments and report results that are useful to = designers of protocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of = the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by evidence from = real-world attacks, laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of = protocols, through the analysis lens of attacks, detection methods and = systematic assessment methodologies. >>>=20 >>> It is not clear how the papers would relate to the drafts and the = RFCs. It is probably best to say that the RG will invite presentations = and discussions of research, policy, and survey papers published = elsewhere. That would help to bring researchers and their results into = the RG, while still allowing them to publish in peer-reviewed venues. =20= >>>=20 >>> I suggest having a goal like =E2=80=9CPromoting communication = between the IETF community and the cyber threat defense community, = through discussions online and in regular meetings=E2=80=9D. =20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>> Within the first year, the research group aims to: >>>>> Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection methods=E2=80=AFand = determine the=E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods = against different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, = C&C, endpoint malware)=20 >>>>> Publish case studies of historical attacks and make = recommendations where attacks could have been stopped more quickly, or = even prevented >>>>> Publish an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence = Considerations for Protocol Design and Deployment". >>>>>=20 >>>>> ## MEMBERSHIP >>>>> Membership is open to any interested parties who intend to remain = current with the published documents and mailing list issues. Wide = participation from industry, academia, government and non-profits is = encouraged. >>>=20 >>> This is really good, thanks again for taking the initiative with = this. >>>=20 >>> Best regards, >>>=20 >>> David >>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act = 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. = Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk = --=20 >>>>> Smart mailing list >>>>> Smart@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart = >>> --=20 >>> Smart mailing list >>> Smart@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart = >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >>=20 >> Best regards, >> Kathleen > --=20 > Smart mailing list > Smart@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart --Apple-Mail=_FEDFE2F8-0260-41FD-8B98-B5E81F87E433 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = think the use of cyber security and cyber defense are well understood in = the market and I am personally okay with their use. Given the target = audience of a lot of these work products, the use of cyber* will be more = wildly accepted than some of the other terms that will just be found to = be confusing.


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Sep 28, 2018, at 10:26 AM, David McGrew (mcgrew) <mcgrew@cisco.com> = wrote:

Hi Kathleen,

Please see inline:

From: Kathleen = Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, = September 28, 2018 at 12:04 PM
To: mcgrew <mcgrew@cisco.com>
Cc: "Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org" <Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, "smart@irtf.org" <smart@irtf.org>
Subject: Re: [Smart] = Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG

Hi David,

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback.  I = have limited time at the moment, but was the one who helped remove the = word cyber from earlier versions of the charter in an effort to use = terms that are well understood.  Do you have a suggestion that improves from attack defense, but doesn't include cyber? 

Not off the top of my head, but I agree with the need to use well = defined terms, because we hope to engage multiple communities. =  Perhaps we would be better off defining exactly what we mean. =  I had actually looked through RFC4949 for a reference, with no = luck.  

Thanks

David


Sorry for the top post on very helpful feedback (more on = that later from at least one of us).

Glad to see you engaged in the conversation!

Best regards,
Kathleen


On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:49 AM David = McGrew (mcgrew) <mcgrew@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Kirsty and others,

Thanks for doing this; I very much like the idea of = forming an RG that addresses these issues.  An RG where protocol = geeks can talk to the threat defense community would be goodness. =  

Some detailed comments below.   Please don=E2=80=99t = misinterpret these comments as being negative on the idea of the RG; the = intent is to refine the charter.  

I like Stephen=E2=80=99s suggestions of making it an explicit = goal to preserve privacy, and citing BCPs.   

More inline:


On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

This is the draft charter for the Proposed = Research Group: Stopping Malware and Researching Threats = (SMART).
Your thoughts and suggestions are = very welcome - please post to the list with your comments! - and = keep an eye out for a list of proposed = research problems soon...


# Stopping = Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - Draft Charter

## BACKGROUND
The first paragraph below probably should precede the = Background heading.   I suggest adding a background that outlines = cybersecurity issues like the cost of data breaches and the high time-to-detection.
The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group = (or SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can = be met in a world of encrypted data.
I suggest moving the =E2=80=9Cworld of encrypted data=E2=80= =9D out of the intro sentence, and relegating it to somewhere further = down.  It=E2=80=99s important, but not the only consideration, and = we don=E2=80=99t want to give people the false impression that the RG is = about backdoors in crypto or other ulterior motives.  The following sentence would = be a good opener.
It will research the effects, both positive and negative, of = existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Internet standards = on attack defence.
I suggest replacing =E2=80=9Cattack defense=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9Ccybersecurity=E2=80=9D throughout, and defining cybersecurity = as including the security of the information and the computers and = communication systems.   My thinking here is that we should emphasize that SMART is = considering the security aspects beyond just the communication security = of the protocols.  It might be worth adding something about how = endpoint system security is at least as important as = protocol/communication security, as it doesn=E2=80=99t matter how wise one is about = cryptography if the attacker can exfiltrate their keys.  
  
On =E2=80=9Cnegative effects=E2=80=9D, what we are most = concerned with are negative externalities in an economic sense, that is, = unintended costs or harm that people who design, implement, deploy, and operate protocols on the internet can cause to others.   =  It would be good to call this out in the charter.  It is = already best current practice to avoid negative externalities in the = context of DoS attacks (RFC4732, say), and it would be healthy for the internet to have the RG consider externalities around other types of = threats.  For instance, the interaction between IP blacklisting and = Tor, as presented by Singh et. al. at ANRW 18 (https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&c= oll=3DDL) deserves more discussion.  
It will gather evidence from information security = practitioners on methods used to defend against attacks and make this = available to protocol designers. As a result, designers, implementers = and users of new protocols will be better informed about the possible impact on attack prevention and = mitigation.
 I = suggest using =E2=80=9Cprotocol designers, implementers, and users=E2=80=9D= throughout, instead of focusing on protocol designers.   Also, it = might be good to think even more broadly here, because what network and = server operators do (or don=E2=80=99t do) can have important effects (e.g. spoofing due to = the lack of ingress filtering, and vulnerable servers used to = launch attacks). =   


The = IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research and evidence to = the IETF.
It=E2=80=99s a good idea to focus on research and = evidence, especially around malicious activity observed on the internet = or network behaviors seen in malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc. =  
This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol = changes where relevant and stimulate methodical research into attack = defence methods for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously = assessed for their security properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also rigorously = assessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a fuller = understanding of the value for such change, enabling a better engineered = Internet.
Instead of =E2=80=9Cattack defence methods=E2=80=9D in = the above, I suggest something like =E2=80=9Cimpact on = cybersecurity=E2=80=9D.



## AIMS
This research group has these major aims:
  • To bring evidence on attacks and the methods that are or could be = used to defend against them to the attention of the = IETF.
More generally, I think we would like to see research on = malicious network behavior.
  • To = highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive = and negative, of new protocols and updates to existing = protocols.
Instead of =E2=80=9Cnew protocols=E2=80=9D I suggest = =E2=80=9Cprotocol design, deployment, and operation=E2=80=9D.
  • To stimulate and generate = research into attack defence methods for new protocols, and to increase awareness in the = technical community of new and existing methodology for detecting and = mitigating attacks.
  • To provide systematic guidance to designers of new protocols as to = what attack defence considerations to review, and to inform implementers = by default about the effects of new protocols on attack defence.
  • To produce problem statements that describe key issues in cyber = security for the group to research (initial research project ideas are = listed below).
I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right = after the first bullet, as the RG should be presenting research findings = first, then creating problem statements, then proposing solutions. =    

I think =E2=80=9Csystematic guidance to designers of new = protocols=E2=80=9D is an ambitious goal.  It would be nice to have = the goal written in a way that it would be easier to make progress = against.   It can be difficult for an RG to make timely progress, = so from the point of view of the process and the IRTF chairs and the RG chairs, it = would be nice to have some more modest or intermediary goals against = which headway could be made.

I would like to see a goal like =E2=80=9CTo stimulate = and generate research on network protocols and practices that minimize = impact on third parties=E2=80=9D or something like that.  
 
## OUTPUTS
The research group plans to create documents that = may include, but are not limited to, the following:
  • Internet = drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which = may be published through the IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline = problem statements, use cases, case studies and convey research results. = They will be written for use by other groups to inform protocol design.
A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience are = just the RG members.   Also, I think it best to say =E2=80=9Cdesign, = deployment, and use=E2=80=9D.
  • Policy papers, for = in-depth analysis and discussion of the relationship between attack = defence and the Internet architecture and protocols.
  • Research papers, = containing quantitative evidence of actual attacks and the success of = defence methods against them, as well as theoretical and formal analyses = of the implications of proposed protocols on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed to determine if there are = ways to optimize in order to better scale attack detection and = mitigation.
  • Survey of current and historic IETF material to discover = existing deliberations on attack defence.
  • Best= practice papers, describing = methodologies that will enable researchers to conduct experiments and = report results that are useful to designers of protocols. These = methodologies will give descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by evidence from = real-world attacks, laboratory-based = testing and theoretical analysis of protocols, through the analysis lens = of attacks, detection methods and systematic assessment = methodologies.
It is not clear how the papers would relate to the = drafts and the RFCs.   It is probably best to say that the RG will = invite presentations and discussions of research, policy, and survey = papers published elsewhere.   That would help to bring researchers and their results into the RG, while still allowing them to publish in = peer-reviewed venues.  

I suggest having a goal like =E2=80=9CPromoting = communication between the IETF community and the cyber threat defense = community, through discussions online and in regular meetings=E2=80=9D. =   


Within the first year, the research group aims to:
  • Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack= detection methods=E2=80=AFand determine the=E2=80=AFrelative = effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods against different attack defence = threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, C&C, endpoint malware)
  • Publish case = studies of historical attacks and make recommendations where attacks = could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented
  • Publish an = Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence Considerations for = Protocol Design and Deployment".

## MEMBERSHIP
Membership is open to = any interested parties who intend to remain current with the published = documents and mailing list issues. Wide participation from industry, = academia, government and non-profits is encouraged.
This is really good, thanks again for taking the = initiative with this.

Best regards,

David






=
This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 = (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer = any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk
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Kathleen
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([2605:a601:3260:266:5d7b:d07e:94bf:2baa]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j202-v6sm2098656ywb.69.2018.09.28.15.25.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:25:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: <2F1B2EF1-C107-49F5-B6B9-853FF44AC740@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_62F9AB5E-DE03-40F6-9EAF-66F07422356B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:24:14 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: "smart@irtf.org" To: Kirsty P References: <6B23EBEE-AD68-4FDE-87C1-4ECF1D9A08AF@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 22:25:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_62F9AB5E-DE03-40F6-9EAF-66F07422356B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Kristy, I hope the work products from this research group can impact and = influence many working groups, technical committees, and study groups = across various SDOs. As we move forward I think we need to ensure the = digestibility of the content we produce and ensure that we can have = maximum impact across the entire eco-system.=20 Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Sep 28, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Kirsty P wrote: >=20 > Bret, >=20 > Yes - we are! Kathleen and I are planning a initial meeting in Bangkok = at IETF103 to discuss the draft charter and discuss initial problems = that the group might research. This meeting won't be one of our three = meetings that we are allocated as a Proposed RG - it's just for planning = purposes. When we have a date and time for this meeting, I'll post on = the list. >=20 > I thought it's just worth pointing out here that, though CACAO and = SMART have very similar end goals (of protecting users and improving = defence against attacks), I really hope that the output from this RG = will benefit many other IETF working groups too - such as MILE, DOTS and = SACM. In future, these WGs and CACAO might receive output from the = research work in a similar way to how the CFRG assists other IETF groups = - different work items, but with coordination between our efforts to do = much more than we could do alone. We could discuss in Bangkok how best = to do such a co-ordination. >=20 > Kirsty >=20 >=20 > From: Bret Jordan > > Sent: 28 September 2018 16:16 > To: Kirsty P > Cc: smart@irtf.org > Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG > =20 > Kristy, et al., >=20 > Are we planning on a meet up in Bangkok? This work along with the = work in the CACAO project could really help protect end users and keep = them safe.=20 >=20 > Bret=20 >=20 > Sent from my Commodore 128D >=20 > PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 >=20 > On Sep 28, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Kirsty P > wrote: >=20 >> Bret, >>=20 >> Thanks for your encouraging words! If you have ideas for more topics = that should be covered in the short-term, please feel free to share with = the list. >>=20 >> Kirsty >>=20 >> From: Bret Jordan > >> Sent: 27 September 2018 22:59:04 >> To: Kirsty P >> Cc: smart@irtf.org >> Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG >> =20 >> Kristy and RG ET al., >>=20 >> I think this charter sounds great and covers most of the areas we = need to address in the short-term. Great work. The deliverables = outlined so far will greatly assist the community for years to come. >>=20 >> Bret=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my Commodore 128D >>=20 >> PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 >>=20 >> On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P = > wrote: >>=20 >>> This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping = Malware and Researching Threats (SMART). >>> Your thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to the = list with your comments! - and keep an eye out for a list of proposed = research problems soon... >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> # Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - = Draft Charter >>>=20 >>> ## BACKGROUND >>> The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or = SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be = met in a world of encrypted data. It will research the effects, both = positive and negative, of existing, proposed and newly published = protocols and Internet standards on attack defence. It will gather = evidence from information security practitioners on methods used to = defend against attacks and make this available to protocol designers. As = a result, designers, implementers and users of new protocols will be = better informed about the possible impact on attack prevention and = mitigation. >>>=20 >>> The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research and = evidence to the IETF. This research group aims to describe the effect of = protocol changes where relevant and stimulate methodical research into = attack defence methods for new protocols. Protocols are already = rigorously assessed for their security properties, but ensuring attack = defence methods are also rigorously assessed alongside protocol design = changes would provide a fuller understanding of the value for such = change, enabling a better engineered Internet.=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ## AIMS >>> This research group has these major aims: >>> To bring evidence on attacks and the methods that are or could be = used to defend against them to the attention of the IETF. >>> To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive and = negative, of new protocols and updates to existing protocols.=20 >>> To stimulate and generate research into attack defence methods for = new protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of = new and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks.=20 >>> To provide systematic guidance to designers of new protocols as to = what attack defence considerations to review, and to inform implementers = by default about the effects of new protocols on attack defence. >>> To produce problem statements that describe key issues in cyber = security for the group to research (initial research project ideas are = listed below). >>> =20 >>> ## OUTPUTS >>> The research group plans to create documents that may include, but = are not limited to, the following: >>> Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through the = IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use = cases, case studies and convey research results. They will be written = for use by other groups to inform protocol design.=20 >>> Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the = relationship between attack defence and the Internet architecture and = protocols. >>> Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of actual attacks = and the success of defence methods against them, as well as theoretical = and formal analyses of the implications of proposed protocols on attack = defence. Defence methods will be analyzed to determine if there are ways = to optimize in order to better scale attack detection and mitigation. >>> Survey of current and historic IETF material to discover existing = deliberations on attack defence. >>> Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable = researchers to conduct experiments and report results that are useful to = designers of protocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of = the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by evidence from = real-world attacks, laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of = protocols, through the analysis lens of attacks, detection methods and = systematic assessment methodologies. >>> Within the first year, the research group aims to: >>> Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection methods=E2=80=AFand = determine the=E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods = against different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, = C&C, endpoint malware) >>> Publish case studies of historical attacks and make recommendations = where attacks could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented >>> Publish an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence = Considerations for Protocol Design and Deployment". >>>=20 >>> ## MEMBERSHIP >>> Membership is open to any interested parties who intend to remain = current with the published documents and mailing list issues. Wide = participation from industry, academia, government and non-profits is = encouraged. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 = (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer = any FOIA queries toncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk = --=20 >>> Smart mailing list >>> Smart@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart = >> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 = (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer = any FOIA queries toncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk = This information is exempt under the = Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK = information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to = ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk --Apple-Mail=_62F9AB5E-DE03-40F6-9EAF-66F07422356B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Kristy,

I = hope the work products from this research group can impact and influence = many working groups, technical committees, and study groups across = various SDOs. As we move forward I think we need to ensure the = digestibility of the content we produce and ensure that we can have = maximum impact across the entire eco-system. 

Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Sep 28, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk> wrote:

Bret,

Yes - we are! Kathleen and I are planning a initial = meeting in Bangkok at IETF103 to discuss the draft charter and = discuss initial problems that the group might research. This = meeting won't be one of our three meetings that we are allocated as = a Proposed RG - it's just for planning purposes. When we have a date and = time for this meeting, I'll post on the list.

I thought it's just worth pointing = out here that, though CACAO and SMART have very similar end goals = (of protecting users and improving defence against attacks), I = really hope that the output from this RG will benefit = many other IETF working groups too - such as MILE, DOTS = and SACM. In future, these WGs and CACAO might receive output from = the research work in a similar way to how the CFRG assists other IETF = groups - different work items, but with coordination between our = efforts to do much more than we could do alone. We could discuss in = Bangkok how best to do such a co-ordination.

Kirsty



From: Bret Jordan <jordan.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: 28 = September 2018 16:16
To: Kirsty P
Cc: smart@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter = For SMART Proposed RG
 
Kristy, et al.,

Are we planning on a meet up in = Bangkok?  This work along with the work in the CACAO project could = really help protect end users and keep them safe. 

Bret 

Sent from my Commodore 128D

PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050

On = Sep 28, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk>= wrote:

Bret,

Thanks for = your encouraging words! If you have ideas for more topics that = should be covered in the short-term, please feel free to share with the = list.

Kirsty

From: Bret Jordan <jordan.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: 27 = September 2018 22:59:04
To: Kirsty P
Cc: smart@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter = For SMART Proposed RG
 
Kristy and RG ET al.,

I think this charter sounds great and = covers most of the areas we need to address in the short-term. =  Great work. The deliverables outlined so far will greatly assist = the community for years to come.

Bret 

Sent from = my Commodore 128D

PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 = 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050

On = Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

This is the = draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping = Malware and Researching Threats (SMART).
Your thoughts and suggestions are = very welcome - please post to the list with your comments! - and = keep an eye out for a list of proposed research problems soon...


# Stopping = Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - Draft = Charter

## BACKGROUND
The = Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or SMART RG) = will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be met in a = world of encrypted data. It will research the effects, both positive and = negative, of existing, proposed and newly published protocols and = Internet standards on attack defence. It will gather evidence from = information security practitioners on methods used to defend against = attacks and make this available to protocol designers. As a result, = designers, implementers and users of new protocols will be better = informed about the possible impact on attack prevention and = mitigation.

The IRTF is in a unique = position to provide this research and evidence to the IETF. This = research group aims to describe the effect of protocol changes where = relevant and stimulate methodical research into attack defence methods = for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously assessed for their = security properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also = rigorously assessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a = fuller understanding of the value for such change, enabling a better = engineered Internet. 


## AIMS
This = research group has these major aims:
  • To bring evidence on = attacks and the = methods that are or could be used to defend against them to the = attention of the IETF.
  • To highlight the attack = mitigation impact, both positive and negative, of new = protocols and = updates to existing protocols. 
  • To stimulate and generate = research into attack defence methods for new = protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of new = and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks. 
  • To provide systematic = guidance to = designers of new protocols as to what attack defence considerations to = review, and to inform implementers by default about the effects of new = protocols on attack defence.
  • To produce problem statements that describe key issues in = cyber security for the group to research (initial research project ideas = are listed below).

 

## OUTPUTS
The = research group plans to create documents that may include, but are not = limited to, the following:
  • Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through = the IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use = cases, case studies and convey research results. They will be written = for use by other groups to inform protocol design. 
  • Policy papers, for = in-depth analysis and discussion of the relationship between attack = defence and the Internet architecture and protocols.
  • Research = papers, containing quantitative = evidence of actual attacks and the success of defence methods against = them, as well as theoretical and formal analyses of the implications of = proposed protocols on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed = to determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better scale = attack detection and mitigation.
  • Survey of current and historic IETF material to discover = existing deliberations on attack defence.
  • Best practice = papers, describing methodologies = that will enable researchers to conduct experiments and report results = that are useful to designers of protocols. These methodologies will give = descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by = evidence from real-world attacks, = laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of protocols, through = the analysis lens of attacks, detection methods and systematic = assessment methodologies.
Within the = first year, the research group aims to:
  • Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack = detection methods=E2=80=AFand determine the=E2=80=AFrelative = effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods against different attack defence = threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, C&C, endpoint = malware)
  • Publish = case studies of historical attacks and make recommendations where = attacks could have been stopped more quickly, or even = prevented
  • Publish = an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence Considerations = for Protocol Design and Deployment".

## MEMBERSHIP
Membership is open to any interested parties who = intend to remain current with the published documents and mailing list = issues. Wide participation from industry, academia, government and = non-profits is encouraged.




This information is exempt under the Freedom = of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK = information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries toncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk
-- 
Smart mailing list
Smart@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart
This information = is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be = exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries = toncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk
This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information = Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information = legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk

= --Apple-Mail=_62F9AB5E-DE03-40F6-9EAF-66F07422356B-- From nobody Fri Sep 28 15:43:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBAFE130E07 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zHLcLedpuxrN for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB67E127133 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E10BE55; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:43:29 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KySkM3NBms0q; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:43:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 31E4FBE51; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:43:24 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1538174606; bh=gRDcdxWHL/Xy/PE+Nxm/Pjf6G25ne4/OqaPGpjnGsOg=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=PRjOMK+2wcZNFB0pJhk2nrQ2g4ftSSVVZP+YrS4V3WxWhvpSsZqzrpkkY6Ge//wvu Cn9nXwWzgHjuMRiBX1YKS/Nma5VRYKWxfljViQjKv10VQpn1AaAAx2ELoRdPM5d10D d1pC519H9LNH0bajkLQQK922MAqNjcZBLCGNe+/M= To: Bret Jordan , "David McGrew (mcgrew)" Cc: "smart@irtf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , "Kirsty.p=40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org" References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:43:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uIbC9QBhutuXIJBf9Fvdeox6v3C9O4jzV" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 22:43:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --uIbC9QBhutuXIJBf9Fvdeox6v3C9O4jzV Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="xKiC6HM4LpC3qzeRJSQGdVqVAaCyT3PKw"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Bret Jordan , "David McGrew (mcgrew)" Cc: "smart@irtf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , "Kirsty.p=40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> --xKiC6HM4LpC3qzeRJSQGdVqVAaCyT3PKw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2B58AEAC37AC328487922001" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2B58AEAC37AC328487922001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 28/09/18 23:21, Bret Jordan wrote: > I think the use of cyber security and cyber defense are well > understood in the market=20 I'm not sure "the market" is the target readership in this case, if what we're after is as-stated. > and I am personally okay with their use. I'm against the use of ill-defined and widely-abused marketing terms for things like this where rigour is better. The IETF and IRTF were, I think, wise to not go along with (ab)uses of the "cloud" term despite people then claiming that'd be a good plan. And I think the same applies here. Anyway, I'd suggest avoiding contentious terms, (the set of cyberblah terms are I think contentious in this context) and trying to be precise even if that consumes more words. (Those are cheap enough I think:-) Cheers, S. > Given the target audience of a lot of these work products, the use of > cyber* will be more wildly accepted than some of the other terms that > will just be found to be confusing. >=20 >=20 > Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 > ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, > the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg." >=20 >> On Sep 28, 2018, at 10:26 AM, David McGrew (mcgrew) >> wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Kathleen, >>=20 >> Please see inline: >>=20 >> From: Kathleen Moriarty > > Date: Friday, September >> 28, 2018 at 12:04 PM To: mcgrew > > Cc: >> "Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org >> " >> > >, "smart@irtf.org >> " >=20 >> Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG >>=20 >>> Hi David, >>>=20 >>> Thank you very much for the detailed feedback. I have limited >>> time at the moment, but was the one who helped remove the word >>> cyber from earlier versions of the charter in an effort to use >>> terms that are well understood. Do you have a suggestion that >>> improves from attack defense, but doesn't include cyber? >>=20 >>=20 >> Not off the top of my head, but I agree with the need to use well >> defined terms, because we hope to engage multiple communities. >> Perhaps we would be better off defining exactly what we mean. I >> had actually looked through RFC4949 for a reference, with no luck. >>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks >>=20 >> David >>=20 >>=20 >>> Sorry for the top post on very helpful feedback (more on that >>> later from at least one of us). >>>=20 >>> Glad to see you engaged in the conversation! >>>=20 >>> Best regards, Kathleen >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:49 AM David McGrew (mcgrew) >>> > wrote: >>>> Hi Kirsty and others, >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks for doing this; I very much like the idea of forming an >>>> RG that addresses these issues. An RG where protocol geeks can >>>> talk to the threat defense community would be goodness. >>>>=20 >>>> Some detailed comments below. Please don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t = misinterpret >>>> these comments as being negative on the idea of the RG; the >>>> intent is to refine the charter. >>>>=20 >>>> I like Stephen=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s suggestions of making it an = explicit goal to >>>> preserve privacy, and citing BCPs. >>>>=20 >>>> More inline: >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: >>>>>> Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART). Your >>>>>> thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to >>>>>> the list with your comments! - and keep an eye out for a >>>>>> list of proposed research problems soon... >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> # Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed >>>>>> RG - Draft Charter >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ## BACKGROUND >>>>=20 >>>> The first paragraph below probably should precede the >>>> Background heading. I suggest adding a background that >>>> outlines cybersecurity issues like the cost of data breaches >>>> and the high time-to-detection. >>>>>> The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group >>>>>> (or SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack defence >>>>>> requirements can be met in a world of encrypted data. >>>>=20 >>>> I suggest moving the =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93world of encrypted data=C3= =A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D out of the >>>> intro sentence, and relegating it to somewhere further down. >>>> It=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s important, but not the only consideratio= n, and we >>>> don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t want to give people the false impressio= n that the RG is >>>> about backdoors in crypto or other ulterior motives. The >>>> following sentence would be a good opener. >>>>>> It will research the effects, both positive and negative, >>>>>> of existing, proposed and newly published protocols and >>>>>> Internet standards on attack defence. >>>>=20 >>>> I suggest replacing =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93attack defense=C3=A2=E2=82=AC= =C2=9D with >>>> =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93cybersecurity=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D throughout, = and defining cybersecurity as >>>> including the security of the information and the computers and >>>> communication systems. My thinking here is that we should >>>> emphasize that SMART is considering the security aspects beyond >>>> just the communication security of the protocols. It might be >>>> worth adding something about how endpoint system security is at >>>> least as important as protocol/communication security, as it >>>> doesn=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t matter how wise one is about cryptogr= aphy if the >>>> attacker can exfiltrate their keys. >>>>=20 >>>> On =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93negative effects=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D, what = we are most concerned with are >>>> negative externalities in an economic sense, that is, >>>> unintended costs or harm that people who design, implement, >>>> deploy, and operate protocols on the internet can cause to >>>> others. It would be good to call this out in the charter. >>>> It is already best current practice to avoid negative >>>> externalities in the context of DoS attacks (RFC4732, say), and >>>> it would be healthy for the internet to have the RG consider >>>> externalities around other types of threats. For instance, the >>>> interaction between IP blacklisting and Tor, as presented by >>>> Singh et. al. at ANRW 18 >>>> (https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&coll=3DDL >>>> ) >>>> deserves more discussion. >>>>>> It will gather evidence from information security >>>>>> practitioners on methods used to defend against attacks and >>>>>> make this available to protocol designers. As a result, >>>>>> designers, implementers and users of new protocols will be >>>>>> better informed about the possible impact on attack >>>>>> prevention and mitigation. >>>>=20 >>>> I suggest using =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93protocol designers, implementer= s, and >>>> users=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D throughout, instead of focusing on protoc= ol designers. >>>> Also, it might be good to think even more broadly here, because >>>> what network and server operators do (or don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2= t do) can have >>>> important effects (e.g. spoofing due to the lack of ingress >>>> filtering, and vulnerable servers used to launch attacks). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research >>>>>> and evidence to the IETF. >>>>=20 >>>> It=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s a good idea to focus on research and evi= dence, >>>> especially around malicious activity observed on the internet >>>> or network behaviors seen in malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc. >>>>=20 >>>>>> This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol >>>>>> changes where relevant and stimulate methodical research >>>>>> into attack defence methods for new protocols. Protocols >>>>>> are already rigorously assessed for their security >>>>>> properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also >>>>>> rigorously assessed alongside protocol design changes would >>>>>> provide a fuller understanding of the value for such >>>>>> change, enabling a better engineered Internet. >>>>=20 >>>> Instead of =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93attack defence methods=C3=A2=E2=82=AC= =C2=9D in the above, I suggest >>>> something like =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93impact on cybersecurity=C3=A2=E2= =82=AC=C2=9D. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ## AIMS This research group has these major aims: To bring >>>>>> evidence on attacks and the methods that are or could be >>>>>> used to defend against them to the attention of the IETF. >>>>=20 >>>> More generally, I think we would like to see research on >>>> malicious network behavior. >>>>>> To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive >>>>>> and negative, of new protocols and updates to existing >>>>>> protocols. >>>>=20 >>>> Instead of =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93new protocols=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D I= suggest =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93protocol design, >>>> deployment, and operation=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D. >>>>>> To stimulate and generate research into attack defence >>>>>> methods for new protocols, and to increase awareness in the >>>>>> technical community of new and existing methodology for >>>>>> detecting and mitigating attacks. To provide systematic >>>>>> guidance to designers of new protocols as to what attack >>>>>> defence considerations to review, and to inform >>>>>> implementers by default about the effects of new protocols >>>>>> on attack defence. To produce problem statements that >>>>>> describe key issues in cyber security for the group to >>>>>> research (initial research project ideas are listed >>>>>> below). >>>>=20 >>>> I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right after the >>>> first bullet, as the RG should be presenting research findings >>>> first, then creating problem statements, then proposing >>>> solutions. >>>>=20 >>>> I think =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93systematic guidance to designers of new= protocols=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D >>>> is an ambitious goal. It would be nice to have the goal >>>> written in a way that it would be easier to make progress >>>> against. It can be difficult for an RG to make timely >>>> progress, so from the point of view of the process and the IRTF >>>> chairs and the RG chairs, it would be nice to have some more >>>> modest or intermediary goals against which headway could be >>>> made. >>>>=20 >>>> I would like to see a goal like =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93To stimulate an= d generate >>>> research on network protocols and practices that minimize >>>> impact on third parties=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D or something like that.= >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ## OUTPUTS The research group plans to create documents >>>>>> that may include, but are not limited to, the following:=20 >>>>>> Internet drafts,=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFsome of which may be publishe= d through >>>>>> the IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline problem >>>>>> statements, use cases, case studies and convey research >>>>>> results. They will be written for use by other groups to >>>>>> inform protocol design. >>>>=20 >>>> A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience are just the >>>> RG members. Also, I think it best to say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93desi= gn, >>>> deployment, and use=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D. >>>>>> Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the >>>>>> relationship between attack defence and the Internet >>>>>> architecture and protocols. Research papers, containing >>>>>> quantitative evidence of actual attacks and the success of >>>>>> defence methods against them, as well as theoretical and >>>>>> formal analyses of the implications of proposed protocols >>>>>> on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed to >>>>>> determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better >>>>>> scale attack detection and mitigation. Survey of current >>>>>> and historic IETF material to discover existing >>>>>> deliberations on attack defence. Best practice papers, >>>>>> describing methodologies that will enable researchers to >>>>>> conduct experiments and report results that are useful to >>>>>> designers of protocols. These methodologies will give >>>>>> descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence >>>>>> backed by evidence from real-world attacks, >>>>>> laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of >>>>>> protocols, through the analysis lens of attacks, detection >>>>>> methods and systematic assessment methodologies. >>>>=20 >>>> It is not clear how the papers would relate to the drafts and >>>> the RFCs. It is probably best to say that the RG will invite >>>> presentations and discussions of research, policy, and survey >>>> papers published elsewhere. That would help to bring >>>> researchers and their results into the RG, while still allowing >>>> them to publish in peer-reviewed venues. >>>>=20 >>>> I suggest having a goal like =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Promoting communic= ation between >>>> the IETF community and the cyber threat defense community, >>>> through discussions online and in regular meetings=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2= =9D. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>> Within the first year, the research group aims to: Survey >>>>>> existing=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFattack detection methods=C3=A2=E2=82=AC= =C2=AFand determine >>>>>> the=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFrelative effectiveness of these=C3=A2=E2=82= =AC=C2=AFmethods against >>>>>> different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, >>>>>> spambots, C&C, endpoint malware) Publish case studies of >>>>>> historical attacks and make recommendations where attacks >>>>>> could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented=20 >>>>>> Publish an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack >>>>>> Defence Considerations for Protocol Design and >>>>>> Deployment". >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ## MEMBERSHIP Membership is open to any interested parties >>>>>> who intend to remain current with the published documents >>>>>> and mailing list issues. Wide participation from industry, >>>>>> academia, government and non-profits is encouraged. >>>>=20 >>>> This is really good, thanks again for taking the initiative >>>> with this. >>>>=20 >>>> Best regards, >>>>=20 >>>> David >>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information >>>>>> Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK >>>>>> information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to >>>>>> ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk -- >>>>>> Smart mailing list Smart@irtf.org =20 >>>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart >>>>>> >>>> -- Smart mailing list Smart@irtf.org =20 >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart >>>> >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>>=20 >>> Best regards, Kathleen >> -- Smart mailing list Smart@irtf.org=20 >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --------------2B58AEAC37AC328487922001 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy 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([2605:a601:3260:266:5d7b:d07e:94bf:2baa]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k2-v6sm2775986ywa.93.2018.09.28.15.59.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:59:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_469614C3-8C58-4927-9A13-D23D21BC8362" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:59:24 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: "David McGrew (mcgrew)" , "smart@irtf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , "Kirsty.p=40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org" To: Stephen Farrell References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 22:59:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_469614C3-8C58-4927-9A13-D23D21BC8362 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Stephen, I respectfully disagree that cyber security is a widely-abused marketing = term. I do agree with you that the =E2=80=9CCloud=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9CHybrid-Cloud=E2=80=9D etc are just fancy marketing terms.. If = we need to sharpen our pencils to provide some definitions, then lets = not argue about it, lets just do it. =46rom my stance, Data Security, = Information Security and Cyber Security are very different.=20 Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Sep 28, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 28/09/18 23:21, Bret Jordan wrote: >> I think the use of cyber security and cyber defense are well >> understood in the market=20 >=20 > I'm not sure "the market" is the target readership in this case, > if what we're after is as-stated. >=20 >> and I am personally okay with their use. >=20 > I'm against the use of ill-defined and widely-abused marketing > terms for things like this where rigour is better. The IETF and > IRTF were, I think, wise to not go along with (ab)uses of the > "cloud" term despite people then claiming that'd be a good plan. > And I think the same applies here. >=20 > Anyway, I'd suggest avoiding contentious terms, (the set of > cyberblah terms are I think contentious in this context) and > trying to be precise even if that consumes more words. (Those > are cheap enough I think:-) >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 >> Given the target audience of a lot of these work products, the use of >> cyber* will be more wildly accepted than some of the other terms that >> will just be found to be confusing. >>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 >> ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, >> the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg." >>=20 >>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 10:26 AM, David McGrew (mcgrew) >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Kathleen, >>>=20 >>> Please see inline: >>>=20 >>> From: Kathleen Moriarty >> > Date: Friday, September >>> 28, 2018 at 12:04 PM To: mcgrew >> > Cc: >>> "Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org >>> " >>> >> >, "smart@irtf.org >>> " >=20 >>> Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG >>>=20 >>>> Hi David, >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you very much for the detailed feedback. I have limited >>>> time at the moment, but was the one who helped remove the word >>>> cyber from earlier versions of the charter in an effort to use >>>> terms that are well understood. Do you have a suggestion that >>>> improves from attack defense, but doesn't include cyber? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Not off the top of my head, but I agree with the need to use well >>> defined terms, because we hope to engage multiple communities. >>> Perhaps we would be better off defining exactly what we mean. I >>> had actually looked through RFC4949 for a reference, with no luck. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks >>>=20 >>> David >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> Sorry for the top post on very helpful feedback (more on that >>>> later from at least one of us). >>>>=20 >>>> Glad to see you engaged in the conversation! >>>>=20 >>>> Best regards, Kathleen >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:49 AM David McGrew (mcgrew) >>>> > wrote: >>>>> Hi Kirsty and others, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks for doing this; I very much like the idea of forming an >>>>> RG that addresses these issues. An RG where protocol geeks can >>>>> talk to the threat defense community would be goodness. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Some detailed comments below. Please don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t = misinterpret >>>>> these comments as being negative on the idea of the RG; the >>>>> intent is to refine the charter. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I like Stephen=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s suggestions of making it = an explicit goal to >>>>> preserve privacy, and citing BCPs. >>>>>=20 >>>>> More inline: >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: >>>>>>> Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART). Your >>>>>>> thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to >>>>>>> the list with your comments! - and keep an eye out for a >>>>>>> list of proposed research problems soon... >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> # Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed >>>>>>> RG - Draft Charter >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> ## BACKGROUND >>>>>=20 >>>>> The first paragraph below probably should precede the >>>>> Background heading. I suggest adding a background that >>>>> outlines cybersecurity issues like the cost of data breaches >>>>> and the high time-to-detection. >>>>>>> The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group >>>>>>> (or SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack defence >>>>>>> requirements can be met in a world of encrypted data. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I suggest moving the =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93world of encrypted = data=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D out of the >>>>> intro sentence, and relegating it to somewhere further down. >>>>> It=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s important, but not the only = consideration, and we >>>>> don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t want to give people the false = impression that the RG is >>>>> about backdoors in crypto or other ulterior motives. The >>>>> following sentence would be a good opener. >>>>>>> It will research the effects, both positive and negative, >>>>>>> of existing, proposed and newly published protocols and >>>>>>> Internet standards on attack defence. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I suggest replacing =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93attack defense=C3=A2=E2=82=AC= =C2=9D with >>>>> =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93cybersecurity=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D = throughout, and defining cybersecurity as >>>>> including the security of the information and the computers and >>>>> communication systems. My thinking here is that we should >>>>> emphasize that SMART is considering the security aspects beyond >>>>> just the communication security of the protocols. It might be >>>>> worth adding something about how endpoint system security is at >>>>> least as important as protocol/communication security, as it >>>>> doesn=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t matter how wise one is about = cryptography if the >>>>> attacker can exfiltrate their keys. >>>>>=20 >>>>> On =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93negative effects=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D, = what we are most concerned with are >>>>> negative externalities in an economic sense, that is, >>>>> unintended costs or harm that people who design, implement, >>>>> deploy, and operate protocols on the internet can cause to >>>>> others. It would be good to call this out in the charter. >>>>> It is already best current practice to avoid negative >>>>> externalities in the context of DoS attacks (RFC4732, say), and >>>>> it would be healthy for the internet to have the RG consider >>>>> externalities around other types of threats. For instance, the >>>>> interaction between IP blacklisting and Tor, as presented by >>>>> Singh et. al. at ANRW 18 >>>>> (https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&coll=3DDL >>>>> ) >>>>> deserves more discussion. >>>>>>> It will gather evidence from information security >>>>>>> practitioners on methods used to defend against attacks and >>>>>>> make this available to protocol designers. As a result, >>>>>>> designers, implementers and users of new protocols will be >>>>>>> better informed about the possible impact on attack >>>>>>> prevention and mitigation. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I suggest using =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93protocol designers, = implementers, and >>>>> users=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D throughout, instead of focusing on = protocol designers. >>>>> Also, it might be good to think even more broadly here, because >>>>> what network and server operators do (or don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2= t do) can have >>>>> important effects (e.g. spoofing due to the lack of ingress >>>>> filtering, and vulnerable servers used to launch attacks). >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research >>>>>>> and evidence to the IETF. >>>>>=20 >>>>> It=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s a good idea to focus on research and = evidence, >>>>> especially around malicious activity observed on the internet >>>>> or network behaviors seen in malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc. >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol >>>>>>> changes where relevant and stimulate methodical research >>>>>>> into attack defence methods for new protocols. Protocols >>>>>>> are already rigorously assessed for their security >>>>>>> properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also >>>>>>> rigorously assessed alongside protocol design changes would >>>>>>> provide a fuller understanding of the value for such >>>>>>> change, enabling a better engineered Internet. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Instead of =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93attack defence methods=C3=A2=E2=82=AC= =C2=9D in the above, I suggest >>>>> something like =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93impact on = cybersecurity=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> ## AIMS This research group has these major aims: To bring >>>>>>> evidence on attacks and the methods that are or could be >>>>>>> used to defend against them to the attention of the IETF. >>>>>=20 >>>>> More generally, I think we would like to see research on >>>>> malicious network behavior. >>>>>>> To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive >>>>>>> and negative, of new protocols and updates to existing >>>>>>> protocols. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Instead of =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93new protocols=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D = I suggest =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93protocol design, >>>>> deployment, and operation=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D. >>>>>>> To stimulate and generate research into attack defence >>>>>>> methods for new protocols, and to increase awareness in the >>>>>>> technical community of new and existing methodology for >>>>>>> detecting and mitigating attacks. To provide systematic >>>>>>> guidance to designers of new protocols as to what attack >>>>>>> defence considerations to review, and to inform >>>>>>> implementers by default about the effects of new protocols >>>>>>> on attack defence. To produce problem statements that >>>>>>> describe key issues in cyber security for the group to >>>>>>> research (initial research project ideas are listed >>>>>>> below). >>>>>=20 >>>>> I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right after the >>>>> first bullet, as the RG should be presenting research findings >>>>> first, then creating problem statements, then proposing >>>>> solutions. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93systematic guidance to designers of = new protocols=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D >>>>> is an ambitious goal. It would be nice to have the goal >>>>> written in a way that it would be easier to make progress >>>>> against. It can be difficult for an RG to make timely >>>>> progress, so from the point of view of the process and the IRTF >>>>> chairs and the RG chairs, it would be nice to have some more >>>>> modest or intermediary goals against which headway could be >>>>> made. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I would like to see a goal like =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93To stimulate = and generate >>>>> research on network protocols and practices that minimize >>>>> impact on third parties=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D or something like = that. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> ## OUTPUTS The research group plans to create documents >>>>>>> that may include, but are not limited to, the following:=20 >>>>>>> Internet drafts,=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFsome of which may be = published through >>>>>>> the IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline problem >>>>>>> statements, use cases, case studies and convey research >>>>>>> results. They will be written for use by other groups to >>>>>>> inform protocol design. >>>>>=20 >>>>> A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience are just the >>>>> RG members. Also, I think it best to say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93desi= gn, >>>>> deployment, and use=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D. >>>>>>> Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the >>>>>>> relationship between attack defence and the Internet >>>>>>> architecture and protocols. Research papers, containing >>>>>>> quantitative evidence of actual attacks and the success of >>>>>>> defence methods against them, as well as theoretical and >>>>>>> formal analyses of the implications of proposed protocols >>>>>>> on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed to >>>>>>> determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better >>>>>>> scale attack detection and mitigation. Survey of current >>>>>>> and historic IETF material to discover existing >>>>>>> deliberations on attack defence. Best practice papers, >>>>>>> describing methodologies that will enable researchers to >>>>>>> conduct experiments and report results that are useful to >>>>>>> designers of protocols. These methodologies will give >>>>>>> descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence >>>>>>> backed by evidence from real-world attacks, >>>>>>> laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of >>>>>>> protocols, through the analysis lens of attacks, detection >>>>>>> methods and systematic assessment methodologies. >>>>>=20 >>>>> It is not clear how the papers would relate to the drafts and >>>>> the RFCs. It is probably best to say that the RG will invite >>>>> presentations and discussions of research, policy, and survey >>>>> papers published elsewhere. That would help to bring >>>>> researchers and their results into the RG, while still allowing >>>>> them to publish in peer-reviewed venues. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I suggest having a goal like =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Promoting = communication between >>>>> the IETF community and the cyber threat defense community, >>>>> through discussions online and in regular meetings=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2= =9D. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Within the first year, the research group aims to: Survey >>>>>>> existing=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFattack detection methods=C3=A2=E2=82=AC= =C2=AFand determine >>>>>>> the=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFrelative effectiveness of = these=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFmethods against >>>>>>> different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, >>>>>>> spambots, C&C, endpoint malware) Publish case studies of >>>>>>> historical attacks and make recommendations where attacks >>>>>>> could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented=20 >>>>>>> Publish an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack >>>>>>> Defence Considerations for Protocol Design and >>>>>>> Deployment". >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> ## MEMBERSHIP Membership is open to any interested parties >>>>>>> who intend to remain current with the published documents >>>>>>> and mailing list issues. Wide participation from industry, >>>>>>> academia, government and non-profits is encouraged. >>>>>=20 >>>>> This is really good, thanks again for taking the initiative >>>>> with this. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best regards, >>>>>=20 >>>>> David >>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information >>>>>>> Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK >>>>>>> information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to >>>>>>> ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk -- >>>>>>> Smart mailing list Smart@irtf.org =20 >>>>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart >>>>>>> >>>>> -- Smart mailing list Smart@irtf.org =20 >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart >>>>> >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>>=20 >>>> Best regards, Kathleen >>> -- Smart mailing list Smart@irtf.org=20 >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> --Apple-Mail=_469614C3-8C58-4927-9A13-D23D21BC8362 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Stephen,

I = respectfully disagree that cyber security is a widely-abused marketing = term.  I do agree with you that the =E2=80=9CCloud=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9CHybrid-Cloud=E2=80=9D etc are just fancy marketing terms.. =  If we need to sharpen our pencils to provide some definitions, = then lets not argue about it, lets just do it. =46rom my stance, Data = Security, Information Security and Cyber Security are very = different. 

Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Sep 28, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hiya,

On 28/09/18 23:21, Bret = Jordan wrote:
I think = the use of cyber security and cyber defense are well
understood in the market

I'm not sure "the market" is the target readership in this = case,
if what we're after is as-stated.

and I am personally okay = with their use.

I'm against = the use of ill-defined and widely-abused marketing
terms = for things like this where rigour is better. The IETF and
IRTF were, I think, wise to not go along with (ab)uses of = the
"cloud" term despite people then claiming that'd be a = good plan.
And I think the same applies here.

Anyway, I'd suggest avoiding contentious = terms, (the set of
cyberblah terms are I think contentious = in this context) and
trying to be precise even if that = consumes more words. (Those
are cheap enough I think:-)

Cheers,
S.

Given the target = audience of a lot of these work products, the use of
cyber* = will be more wildly accepted than some of the other terms that
will just be found to be confusing.


Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A = 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8
ACAE 7415 0050 "Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however,
the only thing = that can not be unscrambled is an egg."

On Sep 28, 2018, at = 10:26 AM, David McGrew (mcgrew)
<mcgrew@cisco.com> = wrote:

Hi Kathleen,

Please see inline:

From: = Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com
<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> Date: = Friday, September
28, 2018 at 12:04 PM To: mcgrew <mcgrew@cisco.com
<mailto:mcgrew@cisco.com>> Cc:
"Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org
<mailto:Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>"
<Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org
<mailto:Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>>, = "smart@irtf.org
<mailto:smart@irtf.org>" <smart@irtf.org <mailto:smart@irtf.org>>
Subject: Re: = [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG

Hi David,

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback. =  I have limited
time at the moment, but was the one = who helped remove the word
cyber from earlier versions of = the charter in an effort to use
terms that are well = understood.  Do you have a suggestion that
improves = from attack defense, but doesn't include cyber?


Not off the top of = my head, but I agree with the need to use well
defined = terms, because we hope to engage multiple communities.
Perhaps we would be better off defining exactly what we mean. =  I
had actually looked through RFC4949 for a = reference, with no luck.


Thanks

David


Sorry for = the top post on very helpful feedback (more on that
later = from at least one of us).

Glad to see you = engaged in the conversation!

Best regards, = Kathleen


On Fri, Sep 28, = 2018 at 11:49 AM David McGrew (mcgrew)
<mcgrew@cisco.com <mailto:mcgrew@cisco.com>> wrote:
Hi Kirsty and others,

Thanks for doing this; I very much like the = idea of forming an
RG that addresses these issues. =  An RG where protocol geeks can
talk to the threat = defense community would be goodness.

Some = detailed comments below.   Please don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t = misinterpret
these comments as being negative on the idea = of the RG; the
intent is to refine the charter.

I like Stephen=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s = suggestions of making it an explicit goal to
preserve = privacy, and citing BCPs.

More inline:


On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P
<Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org
<mailto:Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>> = wrote:

This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group:
Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART). Your
thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to
the list with your comments! - and keep an eye out for a
list of proposed research problems soon...


# Stopping Malware and Researching Threats = (SMART) Proposed
RG - Draft Charter

## BACKGROUND

The first paragraph below probably should precede the
Background heading.   I suggest adding a background = that
outlines cybersecurity issues like the cost of data = breaches
and the high time-to-detection.
The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research = Group
(or SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack = defence
requirements can be met in a world of encrypted = data.

I suggest = moving the =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93world of encrypted data=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D= out of the
intro sentence, and relegating it to somewhere = further down.
It=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s important, but = not the only consideration, and we
don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2= t want to give people the false impression that the RG is
about backdoors in crypto or other ulterior motives. =  The
following sentence would be a good opener.
It will research the effects, both positive and negative,
of existing, proposed and newly published protocols and
Internet standards on attack defence.

I suggest replacing = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93attack defense=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D with
=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93cybersecurity=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D = throughout, and defining cybersecurity as
including the = security of the information and the computers and
communication systems.   My thinking here is that = we should
emphasize that SMART is considering the security = aspects beyond
just the communication security of the = protocols.  It might be
worth adding something about = how endpoint system security is at
least as important as = protocol/communication security, as it
doesn=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2= =84=A2t matter how wise one is about cryptography if the
attacker can exfiltrate their keys.

On =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93negative effects=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D, = what we are most concerned with are
negative externalities = in an economic sense, that is,
unintended costs or harm = that people who design, implement,
deploy, and operate = protocols on the internet can cause to
others. =    It would be good to call this out in the charter.
It is already best current practice to avoid negative
externalities in the context of DoS attacks (RFC4732, say), = and
it would be healthy for the internet to have the RG = consider
externalities around other types of threats. =  For instance, the
interaction between IP = blacklisting and Tor, as presented by
Singh et. al. at = ANRW 18
(https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&c= oll=3DDL
<https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&c= oll=3DDL>)
deserves more discussion.
It will gather evidence from information security
practitioners on methods used to defend against attacks = and
make this available to protocol designers. As a = result,
designers, implementers and users of new protocols = will be
better informed about the possible impact on = attack
prevention and mitigation.

I suggest using = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93protocol designers, implementers, and
users=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D throughout, instead of focusing on = protocol designers.
Also, it might be good to think even = more broadly here, because
what network and server = operators do (or don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t do) can have
important effects (e.g. spoofing due to the lack of = ingress
filtering, and vulnerable servers used to launch = attacks).


The IRTF is in a = unique position to provide this research
and evidence to = the IETF.

It=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s a good idea to focus on research = and evidence,
especially around malicious activity = observed on the internet
or network behaviors seen in = malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc.

This research group aims to describe the effect of = protocol
changes where relevant and stimulate methodical = research
into attack defence methods for new protocols. = Protocols
are already rigorously assessed for their = security
properties, but ensuring attack defence methods = are also
rigorously assessed alongside protocol design = changes would
provide a fuller understanding of the value = for such
change, enabling a better engineered Internet.

Instead of = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93attack defence methods=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D in the = above, I suggest
something like =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93impact = on cybersecurity=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D.



## AIMS This research group has = these major aims: To bring
evidence on attacks and the = methods that are or could be
used to defend against them = to the attention of the IETF.

More generally, I think we would like to see research on
malicious network behavior.
To = highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive
and = negative, of new protocols and updates to existing
protocols.

Instead of =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93new protocols=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2= =9D I suggest =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93protocol design,
deployment, and operation=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D.
To stimulate and generate research into attack defence
methods for new protocols, and to increase awareness in = the
technical community of new and existing methodology = for
detecting and mitigating attacks. To provide = systematic
guidance to designers of new protocols as to = what attack
defence considerations to review, and to = inform
implementers by default about the effects of new = protocols
on attack defence. To produce problem statements = that
describe key issues in cyber security for the group = to
research (initial research project ideas are listed
below).

I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right after = the
first bullet, as the RG should be presenting research = findings
first, then creating problem statements, then = proposing
solutions.

I think = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93systematic guidance to designers of new = protocols=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D
is an ambitious goal. =  It would be nice to have the goal
written in a way = that it would be easier to make progress
against. =   It can be difficult for an RG to make timely
progress, so from the point of view of the process and the = IRTF
chairs and the RG chairs, it would be nice to have = some more
modest or intermediary goals against which = headway could be
made.

I = would like to see a goal like =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93To stimulate and = generate
research on network protocols and practices that = minimize
impact on third parties=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D or = something like that.

## = OUTPUTS The research group plans to create documents
that = may include, but are not limited to, the following:
Internet drafts,=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFsome of which may be = published through
the IRTF RFC stream. These will include = outline problem
statements, use cases, case studies and = convey research
results. They will be written for use by = other groups to
inform protocol design.

A nit: we also want = drafts whose intended audience are just the
RG members. =   Also, I think it best to say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93design,
deployment, and use=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D.
Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the
relationship between attack defence and the Internet
architecture and protocols. Research papers, containing
quantitative evidence of actual attacks and the success of
defence methods against them, as well as theoretical and
formal analyses of the implications of proposed protocols
on attack defence. Defence methods will be analyzed to
determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better
scale attack detection and mitigation. Survey of current
and historic IETF material to discover existing
deliberations on attack defence. Best practice papers,
describing methodologies that will enable researchers to
conduct experiments and report results that are useful to
designers of protocols. These methodologies will give
descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence
backed by evidence from real-world attacks,
laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of
protocols, through the analysis lens of attacks, detection
methods and systematic assessment methodologies.

It is not clear how = the papers would relate to the drafts and
the RFCs. =   It is probably best to say that the RG will invite
presentations and discussions of research, policy, and = survey
papers published elsewhere.   That would = help to bring
researchers and their results into the RG, = while still allowing
them to publish in peer-reviewed = venues.

I suggest having a goal like = =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Promoting communication between
the = IETF community and the cyber threat defense community,
through discussions online and in regular meetings=C3=A2=E2=82=AC= =C2=9D.


Within the = first year, the research group aims to: Survey
existing=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFattack detection = methods=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFand determine
the=C3=A2=E2=82=AC= =C2=AFrelative effectiveness of these=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=AFmethods = against
different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, = DDoS,
spambots, C&C, endpoint malware) Publish case = studies of
historical attacks and make recommendations = where attacks
could have been stopped more quickly, or = even prevented
Publish an Informational RFC, titled: = "Important Attack
Defence Considerations for Protocol = Design and
Deployment".

## = MEMBERSHIP Membership is open to any interested parties
who = intend to remain current with the published documents
and = mailing list issues. Wide participation from industry,
academia, government and non-profits is encouraged.

This is really good, = thanks again for taking the initiative
with this.

Best regards,

David






This information = is exempt under the Freedom of Information
Act 2000 (FOIA) = and may be exempt under other UK
information legislation. = Refer any FOIA queries to
ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk <mailto:ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk>--
Smart = mailing list Smart@irtf.org <mailto:Smart@irtf.org>
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart
<https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart>
-- Smart mailing list Smart@irtf.org <mailto:Smart@irtf.org> =
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart
<https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart>


--
Best regards, Kathleen
-- Smart = mailing list Smart@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart




<0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc= >

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([2605:a601:3260:266:5d7b:d07e:94bf:2baa]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r5-v6sm2777463ywr.80.2018.09.28.16.03.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:03:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bret Jordan Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D1A69F67-BCF4-4923-B40D-C5B5D81B5A6A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:03:07 -0600 In-Reply-To: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> Cc: Kirsty P , "smart@irtf.org" To: "David McGrew (mcgrew)" References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:03:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D1A69F67-BCF4-4923-B40D-C5B5D81B5A6A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 David, I like all of your comments and suggestions, but I have a clarifying = question: You state "A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience = are just the RG members.=E2=80=9D Do you mean: 1) the drafts should only be used by the RG or, 2) the drafts can be targeted at lots of groups and we may have some = that are specifically targeted to the RG? Thanks, Bret PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that = can not be unscrambled is an egg." > On Sep 28, 2018, at 9:48 AM, David McGrew (mcgrew) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Kirsty and others, >=20 > Thanks for doing this; I very much like the idea of forming an RG that = addresses these issues. An RG where protocol geeks can talk to the = threat defense community would be goodness. =20 >=20 > Some detailed comments below. Please don=E2=80=99t misinterpret = these comments as being negative on the idea of the RG; the intent is to = refine the charter. =20 >=20 > I like Stephen=E2=80=99s suggestions of making it an explicit goal to = preserve privacy, and citing BCPs. =20 >=20 > More inline: >=20 >>=20 >> On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P = > wrote: >>=20 >>> This is the draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping = Malware and Researching Threats (SMART). >>> Your thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post to the = list with your comments! - and keep an eye out for a list of proposed = research problems soon... >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> # Stopping Malware and Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - = Draft Charter >>>=20 >>> ## BACKGROUND >=20 > The first paragraph below probably should precede the Background = heading. I suggest adding a background that outlines cybersecurity = issues like the cost of data breaches and the high time-to-detection. >>> The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group (or = SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can be = met in a world of encrypted data. >=20 > I suggest moving the =E2=80=9Cworld of encrypted data=E2=80=9D out of = the intro sentence, and relegating it to somewhere further down. It=E2=80= =99s important, but not the only consideration, and we don=E2=80=99t = want to give people the false impression that the RG is about backdoors = in crypto or other ulterior motives. The following sentence would be a = good opener. >>> It will research the effects, both positive and negative, of = existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Internet standards = on attack defence. >=20 > I suggest replacing =E2=80=9Cattack defense=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9Ccybersecurity=E2=80=9D throughout, and defining cybersecurity = as including the security of the information and the computers and = communication systems. My thinking here is that we should emphasize = that SMART is considering the security aspects beyond just the = communication security of the protocols. It might be worth adding = something about how endpoint system security is at least as important as = protocol/communication security, as it doesn=E2=80=99t matter how wise = one is about cryptography if the attacker can exfiltrate their keys. =20 > =20 > On =E2=80=9Cnegative effects=E2=80=9D, what we are most concerned with = are negative externalities in an economic sense, that is, unintended = costs or harm that people who design, implement, deploy, and operate = protocols on the internet can cause to others. It would be good to = call this out in the charter. It is already best current practice to = avoid negative externalities in the context of DoS attacks (RFC4732, = say), and it would be healthy for the internet to have the RG consider = externalities around other types of threats. For instance, the = interaction between IP blacklisting and Tor, as presented by Singh et. = al. at ANRW 18 = (https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&coll=3DDL = ) = deserves more discussion. =20 >>> It will gather evidence from information security practitioners on = methods used to defend against attacks and make this available to = protocol designers. As a result, designers, implementers and users of = new protocols will be better informed about the possible impact on = attack prevention and mitigation. >=20 > I suggest using =E2=80=9Cprotocol designers, implementers, and = users=E2=80=9D throughout, instead of focusing on protocol designers. = Also, it might be good to think even more broadly here, because what = network and server operators do (or don=E2=80=99t do) can have important = effects (e.g. spoofing due to the lack of ingress filtering, and = vulnerable servers used to launch attacks). =20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research and = evidence to the IETF. >=20 > It=E2=80=99s a good idea to focus on research and evidence, especially = around malicious activity observed on the internet or network behaviors = seen in malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc. =20 >>> This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol changes = where relevant and stimulate methodical research into attack defence = methods for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously assessed for = their security properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also = rigorously assessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a = fuller understanding of the value for such change, enabling a better = engineered Internet. >=20 > Instead of =E2=80=9Cattack defence methods=E2=80=9D in the above, I = suggest something like =E2=80=9Cimpact on cybersecurity=E2=80=9D. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ## AIMS >>> This research group has these major aims: >>> To bring evidence on attacks and the methods that are or could be = used to defend against them to the attention of the IETF. >=20 > More generally, I think we would like to see research on malicious = network behavior. >>> To highlight the attack mitigation impact, both positive and = negative, of new protocols and updates to existing protocols. >=20 > Instead of =E2=80=9Cnew protocols=E2=80=9D I suggest =E2=80=9Cprotocol = design, deployment, and operation=E2=80=9D. >>> To stimulate and generate research into attack defence methods for = new protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of = new and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks. >>> To provide systematic guidance to designers of new protocols as to = what attack defence considerations to review, and to inform implementers = by default about the effects of new protocols on attack defence. >>> To produce problem statements that describe key issues in cyber = security for the group to research (initial research project ideas are = listed below). >=20 > I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right after the first = bullet, as the RG should be presenting research findings first, then = creating problem statements, then proposing solutions. =20 >=20 > I think =E2=80=9Csystematic guidance to designers of new protocols=E2=80= =9D is an ambitious goal. It would be nice to have the goal written in = a way that it would be easier to make progress against. It can be = difficult for an RG to make timely progress, so from the point of view = of the process and the IRTF chairs and the RG chairs, it would be nice = to have some more modest or intermediary goals against which headway = could be made. >=20 > I would like to see a goal like =E2=80=9CTo stimulate and generate = research on network protocols and practices that minimize impact on = third parties=E2=80=9D or something like that. =20 >>> =20 >>> ## OUTPUTS >>> The research group plans to create documents that may include, but = are not limited to, the following: >>> Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through the = IRTF RFC stream. These will include outline problem statements, use = cases, case studies and convey research results. They will be written = for use by other groups to inform protocol design. >=20 > A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience are just the RG = members. Also, I think it best to say =E2=80=9Cdesign, deployment, and = use=E2=80=9D. >>> Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion of the = relationship between attack defence and the Internet architecture and = protocols. >>> Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of actual attacks = and the success of defence methods against them, as well as theoretical = and formal analyses of the implications of proposed protocols on attack = defence. Defence methods will be analyzed to determine if there are ways = to optimize in order to better scale attack detection and mitigation. >>> Survey of current and historic IETF material to discover existing = deliberations on attack defence. >>> Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable = researchers to conduct experiments and report results that are useful to = designers of protocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of = the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by evidence from = real-world attacks, laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of = protocols, through the analysis lens of attacks, detection methods and = systematic assessment methodologies. >=20 > It is not clear how the papers would relate to the drafts and the = RFCs. It is probably best to say that the RG will invite presentations = and discussions of research, policy, and survey papers published = elsewhere. That would help to bring researchers and their results into = the RG, while still allowing them to publish in peer-reviewed venues. =20= >=20 > I suggest having a goal like =E2=80=9CPromoting communication between = the IETF community and the cyber threat defense community, through = discussions online and in regular meetings=E2=80=9D. =20 >=20 >=20 >>> Within the first year, the research group aims to: >>> Survey existing=E2=80=AFattack detection methods=E2=80=AFand = determine the=E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods = against different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, = C&C, endpoint malware) >>> Publish case studies of historical attacks and make recommendations = where attacks could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented >>> Publish an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence = Considerations for Protocol Design and Deployment". >>>=20 >>> ## MEMBERSHIP >>> Membership is open to any interested parties who intend to remain = current with the published documents and mailing list issues. Wide = participation from industry, academia, government and non-profits is = encouraged. >=20 > This is really good, thanks again for taking the initiative with this. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > David >=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 = (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer = any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk = --=20 >>> Smart mailing list >>> Smart@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart = > --=20 > Smart mailing list > Smart@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart --Apple-Mail=_D1A69F67-BCF4-4923-B40D-C5B5D81B5A6A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 David,

I = like all of your comments and suggestions, but I have a clarifying = question:  You state "A nit: we also want drafts whose intended = audience are just the RG members.=E2=80=9D  Do you mean:

1) the drafts should = only be used by the RG or,
2) the drafts can be = targeted at lots of groups and we may have some that are specifically = targeted to the RG?


Thanks,
Bret
PGP = Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 = 0050
"Without = cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not = be unscrambled is an = egg."

On Sep 28, 2018, at 9:48 AM, David McGrew (mcgrew) <mcgrew@cisco.com> = wrote:

Hi Kirsty and others,

Thanks for doing this; I very much like the idea of = forming an RG that addresses these issues.  An RG where protocol = geeks can talk to the threat defense community would be goodness. =  

Some detailed comments below.   Please don=E2=80=99t = misinterpret these comments as being negative on the idea of the RG; the = intent is to refine the charter.  

I like Stephen=E2=80=99s suggestions of making it an explicit goal to = preserve privacy, and citing BCPs.   

More inline:


On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Kirsty P <Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

This is the = draft charter for the Proposed Research Group: Stopping = Malware and Researching Threats (SMART).
Your = thoughts and suggestions are very welcome - please post = to the list with your comments! - and keep an eye out for a list of proposed = research problems soon...


# Stopping Malware and = Researching Threats (SMART) Proposed RG - Draft Charter

## BACKGROUND
The first paragraph below probably should precede the Background = heading.   I suggest adding a background that outlines = cybersecurity issues like the cost of data breaches and the high = time-to-detection.
The Stopping Malware and Researching Threats Research Group = (or SMART RG) will investigate how cyber attack defence requirements can = be met in a world of encrypted data.
I suggest moving the =E2=80=9Cworld of encrypted data=E2=80= =9D out of the intro sentence, and relegating it to somewhere further = down.  It=E2=80=99s important, but not the only consideration, and = we don=E2=80=99t want to give people the false impression that the RG is = about backdoors in crypto or other ulterior motives.  The following sentence would = be a good opener.
It will research the effects, both positive and negative, of = existing, proposed and newly published protocols and Internet standards = on attack defence.
I suggest replacing =E2=80=9Cattack defense=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9Ccybersecurity=E2=80=9D throughout, and defining cybersecurity = as including the security of the information and the computers and = communication systems.   My thinking here is that we should = emphasize that SMART is considering the security aspects beyond just the communication security of the = protocols.  It might be worth adding something about how endpoint = system security is at least as important as protocol/communication = security, as it doesn=E2=80=99t matter how wise one is about = cryptography if the attacker can exfiltrate their keys.  
  
On =E2=80=9Cnegative effects=E2=80=9D, what we are most concerned with = are negative externalities in an economic sense, that is, unintended = costs or harm that people who design, implement, deploy, and operate = protocols on the internet can cause to others.    It would be = good to call this out in the charter.  It is already best current = practice to avoid negative externalities in the context of DoS attacks = (RFC4732, say), and it would be healthy for the internet to have the RG = consider externalities around other types of threats.  For instance, the interaction between IP blacklisting and Tor, as = presented by Singh et. al. at ANRW 18 (https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D3232786&dl=3DACM&c= oll=3DDL) deserves more discussion.  
It will gather evidence from information security = practitioners on methods used to defend against attacks and make this = available to protocol designers. As a result, designers, implementers = and users of new protocols will be better informed about the possible impact on attack prevention = and mitigation.
 I = suggest using =E2=80=9Cprotocol designers, implementers, and users=E2=80=9D= throughout, instead of focusing on protocol designers.   Also, it = might be good to think even more broadly here, because what network and = server operators do (or don=E2=80=99t do) can have important effects (e.g. spoofing due to = the lack of ingress filtering, and vulnerable servers used to = launch attacks). =   


The IRTF is in a unique position to provide this research and = evidence to the IETF.
It=E2=80=99s a good idea to focus on research and = evidence, especially around malicious activity observed on the internet = or network behaviors seen in malware sandboxes, honeypots, etc. =  
This research group aims to describe the effect of protocol = changes where relevant and stimulate methodical research into attack = defence methods for new protocols. Protocols are already rigorously = assessed for their security properties, but ensuring attack defence methods are also = rigorously assessed alongside protocol design changes would provide a = fuller understanding of the value for such change, enabling a better = engineered Internet.
Instead of =E2=80=9Cattack defence methods=E2=80=9D in = the above, I suggest something like =E2=80=9Cimpact on = cybersecurity=E2=80=9D.



## AIMS
This research group has these major = aims:
  • To bring evidence on attacks and the methods that are = or could be used to defend against them to the attention of the = IETF.
More generally, I think we would like to see research on = malicious network behavior.
  • To highlight the attack mitigation = impact, both positive and negative, of new protocols and updates to existing = protocols.
Instead of =E2=80=9Cnew protocols=E2=80=9D I suggest = =E2=80=9Cprotocol design, deployment, and operation=E2=80=9D.
  • To stimulate and generate research into attack defence = methods for new = protocols, and to increase awareness in the technical community of new = and existing methodology for detecting and mitigating attacks.
  • To provide systematic = guidance to designers of new protocols as to what attack defence = considerations to review, and to inform implementers by default about = the effects of new protocols on attack defence.
  • To = produce problem statements that describe = key issues in cyber security for the group to research (initial research = project ideas are listed below).
I suggest putting the problem statements bullet right = after the first bullet, as the RG should be presenting research findings = first, then creating problem statements, then proposing solutions. =    

I think =E2=80=9Csystematic guidance to designers of new = protocols=E2=80=9D is an ambitious goal.  It would be nice to have = the goal written in a way that it would be easier to make progress = against.   It can be difficult for an RG to make timely progress, = so from the point of view of the process and the IRTF chairs and the RG chairs, it = would be nice to have some more modest or intermediary goals against = which headway could be made.

I would like to see a goal like =E2=80=9CTo stimulate = and generate research on network protocols and practices that minimize = impact on third parties=E2=80=9D or something like that.  
 
## OUTPUTS
The research group plans to create = documents that may include, but are not limited to, the following:
  • Internet drafts,=E2=80=AFsome of which may be published through the IRTF RFC = stream. These will include outline problem statements, use cases, case = studies and convey research results. They will be written for use by other groups to inform protocol = design.
A nit: we also want drafts whose intended audience are = just the RG members.   Also, I think it best to say =E2=80=9Cdesign, = deployment, and use=E2=80=9D.
  • Policy papers, for in-depth analysis and discussion = of the relationship between attack defence and the Internet architecture = and protocols.
  • Research papers, containing quantitative evidence of actual = attacks and the success of defence methods against them, as well as = theoretical and formal analyses of the implications of proposed protocols on attack defence. Defence methods will be = analyzed to determine if there are ways to optimize in order to better = scale attack detection and mitigation.
  • Survey of current and historic IETF material to discover = existing deliberations on attack defence.
  • Best practice papers, describing methodologies that will enable researchers to = conduct experiments and report results that are useful to designers of = protocols. These methodologies will give descriptions of the effects of protocols on attack defence backed by = evidence from real-world attacks, = laboratory-based testing and theoretical analysis of protocols, through = the analysis lens of attacks, detection methods and systematic assessment methodologies.
It is not clear how the papers would relate to the = drafts and the RFCs.   It is probably best to say that the RG will = invite presentations and discussions of research, policy, and survey = papers published elsewhere.   That would help to bring researchers and their results into the RG, while still allowing them to publish in = peer-reviewed venues.  

I suggest having a goal like =E2=80=9CPromoting = communication between the IETF community and the cyber threat defense = community, through discussions online and in regular meetings=E2=80=9D. =   


Within the first year, the research group aims to:
  • Survey = existing=E2=80=AFattack detection methods=E2=80=AFand determine = the=E2=80=AFrelative effectiveness of these=E2=80=AFmethods against = different attack defence threats (e.g. phishing, DDoS, spambots, = C&C, endpoint malware)
  • Publish= case studies of historical attacks and make recommendations where = attacks could have been stopped more quickly, or even prevented
  • Publish= an Informational RFC, titled: "Important Attack Defence Considerations = for Protocol Design and Deployment".

## MEMBERSHIP
Membership is open to any interested = parties who intend to remain current with the published documents and = mailing list issues. Wide participation from industry, academia, = government and non-profits is encouraged.
This is really good, thanks again for taking the = initiative with this.

Best regards,

David






=
This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 = (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer = any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk
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= --Apple-Mail=_D1A69F67-BCF4-4923-B40D-C5B5D81B5A6A-- From nobody Fri Sep 28 16:55:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62970130DFC for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:55:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S0pHGb1JYOMm for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEDCB130DBE for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id b129-v6so5482033pga.13 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:55:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=j7OrSOx8jkIjK3p6VkJeZDpC3VqEdWKu4P9bMe1SY2w=; b=stlqzFN5oz4xAz6lUtxkqUrbVy55ngGN9OYx9NHfhEPbcNOKEA2/3HfY0QSJkW+vMR FlUX14EmEOE0t2RxA7xRfq/S+UYc0ZUl7QI8kOtgDw1XDTWuMao8SKIGXFTvuB4f6lSr X7AwNqBkXbZrjKia8PD8vv+VT4mSQ1sq0sa2eoqWCaencmPI8OLxBnQxbSnue8Si9cf/ WX3TU8iMXFEtzAZK85osgHYJADp18ZDFgLRJ3508qLOrnHQT8BojZyOj73CC0Q8/8Uo+ tybnzoMRG/GiWuqcrW61wScudDwaKtjl3H66XW7yEihk7PKqkkoM7QV2MQB0gLZHyNjr JsKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=j7OrSOx8jkIjK3p6VkJeZDpC3VqEdWKu4P9bMe1SY2w=; b=qlOEJu1ZTH34I8wfnPzfrfUbzggW0+1oNiE8yQKBzDPxAYHeyipSSHsnC+b4VM7JFx e14BHQe6VX1MSY8Gxd8beUcsd62tk6cjwcGXfYrdfjSVuodSIlZEUHWt2ZDpHTq2ktQj O8WiG+wa0Ldb8tZLV1XmUnQamXJksdvoDf60ssribDzVwmSavFDV3di/0Brlw27smPQj MNiuNrMSs3zPpj8QPCcfY+2xFV3zAwRjczspsc6UBMFHM71FC7Q+VLxxBA7dPYCkTSNN R32eJ428efW8eXRGs7oPOQHOj5N+Wv2bEXx0gHbRryat0xdd97sd6aU56+z8QauQe2xW 61Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohpoYYkapjm6aDW/sQiD0+GXAN6buS745SfLEg11YeIYgYxTsP+ y6vf/Q1IOAYTYmVdGCTMZmbwoKAL X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63ytNBh/IUbXJ+Ge0KCxDYp54aGwk07YZR666cpDeoUp7iRmhmUmdqfOJkCzcYBaaqnXl/AFQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a618:: with SMTP id u24-v6mr818401plq.77.1538178944675; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [100.112.97.115] ([27.62.6.155]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y85-v6sm11170801pfa.170.2018.09.28.16.55.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Suresh Ramasubramanian X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B5059d) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 05:25:40 +0530 Cc: Stephen Farrell , "smart@irtf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , "David McGrew (mcgrew)" , "Kirsty.p=40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> To: Bret Jordan Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:55:48 -0000 May I suggest that this nomenclature discussion be tabled and we go on to ex= amine previous work in this area first so that no wheels are reinvented? =20= Or first start with a useful summary of such work and existing approaches? We already have products in the market from cisco and others that deal with t= his at a network level examining alternatives to DPI - either look at traffi= c metadata to fingerprint badness or decrypt and re encrypt data on the fly a= re two common approaches. Malware and any other kind of online crime investigation and forensics gets t= hat much harder with bad guys having just as much as or better access to str= ong encryption and the data anonymization that GDPR provides. What else? --srs > On 29-Sep-2018, at 4:29 AM, Bret Jordan wrote: >=20 > I respectfully disagree that cyber security is a widely-abused marketing t= erm. I do agree with you that the =E2=80=9CCloud=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CHybrid-= Cloud=E2=80=9D etc are just fancy marketing terms.. If we need to sharpen o= ur pencils to provide some definitions, then lets not argue about it, lets j= ust do it. =46rom my stance, Data Security, Information Security and Cyber S= ecurity are very different From nobody Fri Sep 28 17:08:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72A9130DC1 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:08:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G_kDtKQhnNlK for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CD3C127148 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1138BE53 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2018 01:08:49 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U_gLhSy5vT5R for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2018 01:08:48 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D914BE20 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2018 01:08:48 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1538179728; bh=70LAYEdQvx+1aw3c1mS2XQ3LFBCZ/RajmbiGSS8zaZM=; h=Subject:References:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ib3KfhEAlhneeMSZvT9aZoQhpKx4jc8f52sdnQ4A7E2H9CjKrO0QcTwOW60bi0kuo X25JPCdvsb+P+jlwcsfAOjMDGGVJh+KbkzY3VxK4AQXBX8BPBPNFmxme3BFpJ5NRZ4 Tt1Wb6r0k6VggllqIPY2owb+nB8xt+zTsZQzAnpE= References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> To: "smart@irtf.org" From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <6d8431bc-37ab-e43c-6bc9-a8d2ba9883d9@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 01:08:47 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zFMD54ZlFMZzSOAUDUlRkvPNWHIC0r2PI" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 00:08:55 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --zFMD54ZlFMZzSOAUDUlRkvPNWHIC0r2PI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="WHMAwKLbceS7MtYEukAOGDBnKMKtMn5eI"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "smart@irtf.org" Message-ID: <6d8431bc-37ab-e43c-6bc9-a8d2ba9883d9@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Smart] Draft Charter For SMART Proposed RG References: <064F1F53-248C-4BBD-8C2D-59A4F71874DB@cisco.com> <1C0FF090-9AE0-4D99-8E4D-57893643785C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --WHMAwKLbceS7MtYEukAOGDBnKMKtMn5eI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F24B175C047BFD47A4AC0950" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F24B175C047BFD47A4AC0950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FWIW, I think the message below is a good example of why the kind of explicit text I argued for is needed in any putative charter. S. On 29/09/18 00:55, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > May I suggest that this nomenclature discussion be tabled and we go on = to examine previous work in this area first so that no wheels are reinven= ted? =20 >=20 > Or first start with a useful summary of such work and existing approach= es? >=20 > We already have products in the market from cisco and others that deal = with this at a network level examining alternatives to DPI - either look = at traffic metadata to fingerprint badness or decrypt and re encrypt data= on the fly are two common approaches. >=20 > Malware and any other kind of online crime investigation and forensics = gets that much harder with bad guys having just as much as or better acce= ss to strong encryption and the data anonymization that GDPR provides. >=20 > What else? >=20 > --srs >=20 >> On 29-Sep-2018, at 4:29 AM, Bret Jordan wrote:= >> >> I respectfully disagree that cyber security is a widely-abused marketi= ng term. I do agree with you that the =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Cloud=C3=A2=E2= =82=AC=C2=9D, =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Hybrid-Cloud=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D etc = are just fancy marketing terms.. If we need to sharpen our pencils to pr= ovide some definitions, then lets not argue about it, lets just do it. Fr= om my stance, Data Security, Information Security and Cyber Security are = very different >=20 --------------F24B175C047BFD47A4AC0950 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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