From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 1 07:15:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B317B21E816C for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:15:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.841 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.841 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.758, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SXm2LdO6QjZX for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFDDD21E803E for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21F2KXH007405; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21F22oH007376 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so1481550lah.39 for ; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 07:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.152.135.148 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.152.135.148; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.152.135.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=d3e3e3@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=d3e3e3@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.152.135.148]) by 10.152.135.148 with SMTP id ps20mr4866949lab.20.1330614121529 (num_hops = 1); Thu, 01 Mar 2012 07:02:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pwiHSIyEfHdFbmSYq8b2ixB7SFn73sYc0y8ZxyrOzKA=; b=IjkNPxNLaCYwKVBmBO9NgKHtS6uixzEsQkHIF3H2ZPURfgyojqqSZZk5ZDsC22p3e0 SXuUDJfX/Aw3JopLV4Tvjk/p14ilc4wx+kazbFTlBVqMD+WSW1GP5B7VH9PkztLZr+Ta cJY7ikkZ23NeCOifQatY06k2C033nnaA76QMY= Received: by 10.152.135.148 with SMTP id ps20mr3982195lab.20.1330614121445; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 07:02:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.80.234 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:01:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F299302.3000804@acm.org> <201202232316.q1NNG7qK004098@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 10:01:41 -0500 Message-ID: To: "rbridge@postel.org" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q21F22oH007376 Subject: Re: [rbridge] WG last call of draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-02 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Suggested revised Section 2.4: 2.4 Conflict of Extended Header Flags It would be possible to specify the effects of TRILL Header extension flags so that two or more of them conflicted. In that case, flags could be present in a frame that direct an RBridge processing the frame to do conflicting things or to change its interpretation of later parts of the frame in conflicting ways. Conflicting extended flags MUST NOT be included in a frame. If they are, the results are unspecified. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:32 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: >> >> ... >> >> I have some other comments on the document itself, if it goes >> forward. My main comment concerns Section 2.4. I think it should be >> deleted entirely. We should just not allow the definition of >> conflicting options. Or if we do, we should say mutually incompatable >> options MUST NOT be used together at the same time. If someone ends up >> generating Trill packets with conflicting options, let the behavior be >> undefined. Looking at Section 2.4, it seems that implementations may >> end up having to do a lot of work to adhere to the rules -- and for >> what ends? =A0We should just strongly discourage the use of conflicting >> extensions, and when they happen, buyer beware. We should not >> complicate implementations to handle cases that really shouldn't be >> allowed to happen. That is IMO a bad tradeoff. > > While I think it would be unreasonable to forbid ever defining options > that could conflict, prohibiting the simultaneous use of such options > and stating that the results would be unspecified is reasonable. This > would be consistent with other parts of the TRILL specification that > make checking various frame constraints optional for transit RBridges > to reduce the burden on such RBridges. > > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA > =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > >> Alternatively, if we ever decide we need to define a conflicting >> extension, that is the time to define how to handle the two when they >> occur together. We may find that the proposed rules in Section 2.4 end >> up being wrong for those specific options anyway, in which case we >> find ourselves in a bind. > >> Thomas _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 1 11:40:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA4921F8B7B for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:40:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7+c4UGAS3H6V for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E39021F8B20 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21JKwHG025970; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21JKUYs025916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:20:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=rwatve@cisco.com; l=5134; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1330629639; x=1331839239; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=T/bhx5/wMxbQFT56ZHve1Wvuaqbq/hMUhxC9TOthYXQ=; b=dQHJ7i+lERxjiS7acpTBMkNYHQYmS1W9VmvoynGDbVRGYsE5J01y++Jy lOgboHJ+i+5CnSuYP0hQkDMAgBm1wcm7bZTem8dkWOPP4PFDQo80zA9+d ZVXx1zTP2pvEnnWcIQyiTKWZ2sWcah3waEncjw7kvobUHPi2BWRnSjUI7 Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABPLT0+rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABDglGxP4EHgX8BBBIBCREDWwEqBhgHVwEEGxqHYwyfHIEnAZcEjQF2EQYDAoRBBQsGCQQYVQcygj9jBIhPn38 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,512,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="33810151" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2012 19:20:30 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q21JKUUC025775 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:20:30 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:20:30 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 11:20:28 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New draft for proactive OAM Thread-Index: Acz34FzSXQSOntEaTpaVHn03AzXC4Q== From: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2012 19:20:30.0203 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D9A4CB0:01CCF7E0] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: rwatve@cisco.com Subject: [rbridge] New draft for proactive OAM X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0936656237==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0936656237== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CCF7E0.5D7779CE" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF7E0.5D7779CE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, =20 I have uploaded a draft for pro-active OAM for trill. =20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rohit-trill-proactive-oam-00.txt =20 Here is the abstract: " Pro-active fault monitoring for TRILL monitors all the paths between any two given RBridges in the network. Number of paths to be monitored can be of exponential order based on the distance between two RBridges. In this document novel fault monitoring mechanism based on a distributed approach is presented." =20 Can you please send your comments? I will highly appreciate your feedback. =20 Thanks, Rohit ------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF7E0.5D7779CE Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

 

I have uploaded a draft for pro-active OAM for = trill.

 

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rohit-trill-proactive-oam-00.txt

 

Here is the abstract:

“  Pro-active fault monitoring for TRILL monitors all =
the paths between

   any two given RBridges in the network. Number of paths to = be

   monitored can be of exponential order based on the distance = between

   two RBridges. In this document novel fault monitoring = mechanism

   based on a distributed approach is = presented.”

 

Can you please send your comments?

I will highly appreciate your feedback.

 

Thanks,

Rohit

------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF7E0.5D7779CE-- --===============0936656237== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0936656237==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 1 13:46:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C6A21E8036 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:46:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.917, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u7saOgiOcbJH for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DE021E8109 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21LWumk017956; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:32:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from e38.co.us.ibm.com (e38.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.159]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21LVugB017859 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from /spool/local by e38.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted for from ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:31:54 -0700 Received: from d03dlp02.boulder.ibm.com (9.17.202.178) by e38.co.us.ibm.com (192.168.1.138) with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:31:17 -0700 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by d03dlp02.boulder.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03CF43E40049 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:31:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.168]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q21LV9Fu044786 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:31:09 -0700 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q21LV81P003549 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:31:08 -0700 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (sig-9-65-232-28.mts.ibm.com [9.65.232.28]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q21LV7FA003422 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:31:08 -0700 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id q21LUKo3028285; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:30:21 -0500 Message-Id: <201203012130.q21LUKo3028285@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> To: Donald Eastlake In-reply-to: References: <4F299302.3000804@acm.org> <201202232316.q1NNG7qK004098@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Comments: In-reply-to Donald Eastlake message dated "Thu, 01 Mar 2012 10:01:41 -0500." Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 16:30:20 -0500 From: Thomas Narten X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12030121-5518-0000-0000-000002A9DB55 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: narten@us.ibm.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] WG last call of draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-02 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Don. Thrust of text looks good to me. Some possible tweaking: > 2.4 Conflict of Extended Header Flags > It would be possible to specify the effects of TRILL Header > extension flags so that two or more of them conflicted. In that > case, flags could be present in a frame that direct an RBridge > processing the frame to do conflicting things or to change > its interpretation of later parts of the frame in conflicting ways. > Conflicting extended flags MUST NOT be included in a frame. If they > are, the results are unspecified. How about: Defining TRILL extensions or extension flags that conflict with each other would be undesirable. Should conflicting extensions appear in the same packet, the results would be unpredictable, if different implementations processed them in different orders. While rules could be defined to specify how to predictably process conflicting options, such rules could also limit implementation flexibility in order to handle scenarios that arguably shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Conflicting extensions SHOULD NOT be defined, but if they are, careful thought should be given as to whether and how to specify the handling of conflicting extensions. Bottom line: we shouldn't define any, and hopefully we won't. But if we ever do, that is the time to figure out what the rules make sense. It may well be that even then the Best Answer may is "don't do it, results are undefined" Thomas _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 1 14:13:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E2121E8359 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:13:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.898, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0OJoazmCtwhd for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4649C21E8363 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21M56qF024348; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.153]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21M4NHs024255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from /spool/local by e35.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:03:32 -0700 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8675EC9006D for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 17:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (d03av03.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.169]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q21M3S1k302890 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 17:03:29 -0500 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q21M3R1w001231 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:03:28 -0700 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (sig-9-65-232-28.mts.ibm.com [9.65.232.28]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q21M3PEU001028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:03:26 -0700 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id q21M2dEh028570; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 17:02:40 -0500 Message-Id: <201203012202.q21M2dEh028570@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> To: Donald Eastlake In-reply-to: References: <4F299302.3000804@acm.org> <201202232316.q1NNG7qK004098@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <201203012130.q21LUKo3028285@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Comments: In-reply-to Donald Eastlake message dated "Thu, 01 Mar 2012 16:58:02 -0500." Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 17:02:39 -0500 From: Thomas Narten X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12030122-6148-0000-0000-000003E94636 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: narten@us.ibm.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] WG last call of draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-02 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Proposed wording looks good to me! Thanks! Thomas _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 1 14:22:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C5621E8384 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:22:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.747, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5CooY2W+tl4A for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B3021E8371 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:21:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21Lx39I023348; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21LwNWl022957 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so2221841lah.39 for ; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 13:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.152.123.68 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.152.123.68; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.152.123.68 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=d3e3e3@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=d3e3e3@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.152.123.68]) by 10.152.123.68 with SMTP id ly4mr6346528lab.13.1330639102310 (num_hops = 1); Thu, 01 Mar 2012 13:58:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pmg01L7FFmn4bf0nzJeAwGDiBqgzT67vr9/c730PhPc=; b=xYaasJG9ud0obROEhCtZa0l2lQ2DJozbLCdnlcbZJByrBF4tiWTkNekjplZSgpPt/x OW8uBCkqF535owBK+isOkhXmafZ48TRyK9i+nzy+jYIl5tboyHzRPOiUDGg7+zyVqUMC ks4xIUdjdzGEmr3ee51nOo3F61Wl1DHV35sUR8B8xX5ouOVQ4PSoWCIZoU5s8tzsILm8 zWjC5fxEnIa64zqyBeFtkn9Bhq7xaKEzT3vPF6goqlnYb0qiOzpb9nzo6BzqxIwLMFJn TP/3J9lqJmpUoSwPeVV+y/bSpIwchNyTo4m3ub6U2jJ+DmkC3GmarAboMgTq3Z8yoYqN aHjA== Received: by 10.152.123.68 with SMTP id ly4mr5207147lab.13.1330639102252; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 13:58:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.80.234 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:58:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201203012130.q21LUKo3028285@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> References: <4F299302.3000804@acm.org> <201202232316.q1NNG7qK004098@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <201203012130.q21LUKo3028285@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:58:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Thomas Narten X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q21LwNWl022957 Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] WG last call of draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-02 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Thomas, How about the following, which is your text with a minor change: Defining TRILL extensions or extension flags that conflict with each other would be undesirable. Should conflicting extensions appear in the same packet, the results would be unpredictable, if different implementations processed them in different orders. While rules could be defined to specify how to predictably process conflicting options, such rules would also limit implementation flexibility and could impose substantial processing burdens. Conflicting extensions SHOULD NOT be defined, but if they are, careful thought should be given as to whether and how to specify the handling of conflicting extensions. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > Hi Don. > > Thrust of text looks good to me. Some possible tweaking: > > >> 2.4 Conflict of Extended Header Flags > >> =A0 =A0It would be possible to specify the effects of TRILL Header >> =A0 =A0extension flags so that two or more of them conflicted. In that >> =A0 =A0case, flags could be present in a frame that direct an RBridge >> =A0 =A0processing the frame to do conflicting things or to change >> =A0 =A0its interpretation of later parts of the frame in conflicting way= s. > >> =A0 =A0Conflicting extended flags MUST NOT be included in a frame. If th= ey >> =A0 =A0are, the results are unspecified. > > How about: > > =A0 Defining TRILL extensions or extension flags that conflict with > =A0 each other would be undesirable. Should conflicting extensions > =A0 appear in the same packet, the results would be unpredictable, if > =A0 different implementations processed them in different orders. While > =A0 rules could be defined to specify how to predictably process > =A0 conflicting options, such rules could also limit implementation > =A0 flexibility in order to handle scenarios that arguably shouldn't be > =A0 allowed in the first place. > > =A0 Conflicting extensions SHOULD NOT be defined, but if they are, > =A0 careful thought should be given as to whether and how to specify > =A0 the handling of conflicting extensions. > > Bottom line: we shouldn't define any, and hopefully we won't. But if > we ever do, that is the time to figure out what the rules make > sense. It may well be that even then the Best Answer may is "don't do > it, results are undefined" > > Thomas > _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 1 15:54:10 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF3F21E8132 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:54:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.573, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id we1bknY8rBLu for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E546721E8108 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21Nb4cY010730; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q21NaivJ010698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erik-Nordmarks-MacBook-Pro-2.local (128-107-239-233.cisco.com [128.107.239.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id q21NafA5015280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:36:42 -0800 Message-ID: <4F500809.2090906@acm.org> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:36:41 -0800 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rbridge@postel.org" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: nordmark@acm.org Subject: [rbridge] Agenda items for Paris X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Please send us any agenda requests for the TRILL WG meeting in Paris. We are currently scheduled for a long slot on Monday and a short slot on Friday. Getting a quick indication of what drafts/issues folks think we need to discuss and resolve will help us determine whether we need the Friday slot or not. Thanks, Erik and Donald _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 1 20:16:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79BE21E8032 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:16:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9LFxXiPF-aMS for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E85621E8014 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2245ncA019987; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f52.google.com (mail-ee0-f52.google.com [74.125.83.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22454X2019926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by eekd4 with SMTP id d4so563986eek.39 for ; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 20:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of radiaperlman@gmail.com designates 10.14.206.135 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.14.206.135; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of radiaperlman@gmail.com designates 10.14.206.135 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=radiaperlman@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=radiaperlman@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.14.206.135]) by 10.14.206.135 with SMTP id l7mr1010273eeo.103.1330661103630 (num_hops = 1); Thu, 01 Mar 2012 20:05:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=YOT5jTZIFNakq/PPLFc972TrIi3m5H6m8kIOKaCVkdc=; b=z4GyTMVQ8FGCbNWauviXTwCoi7D37eVDavSUlQmUk1wNansybDz/l0tSaz8HN9c2Ca loMlrcWBiZtS1zOzNTGsBID+b5l/c/BNZbIKsRb+hI4Zjd5znNUCPlhtdv+Giap0S1nc C1V+1C17JPFDdd5GqqvtsLuwhMEkPPAqKp00jLKqdQyRAOe7YBdlRzJ92oaFwgj0gAg4 igQi3EDbXkxUjCKqpPKEQgBQgOvDvAf13wu+Sn5nyTVtrbWr5qixLUZHPR96lMkq5OPB uM6rHC3nNOe7K6ygooqMOAKZkn5TTxjNlhLok+ClcsgnIWMRWxHqr84CfIgnF10aJWd7 RCNg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.206.135 with SMTP id l7mr787879eeo.103.1330661103516; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 20:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.8.206 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:05:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:05:03 -0800 Message-ID: From: Radia Perlman To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: radiaperlman@gmail.com Subject: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org I understand the concept of adding per-topology costs to IS-IS, and having different forwarding tables computed for each topology. However, especially in order to imagine how it might (as claimed) solve various problems, I'd like to have people explain the following, or any other questions that people might like to toss into the discussion. If it will help, I'll try to make a stab at answering my own questions. 1) What problem was multi-topology intended to solve? There are two things I could imagine, or that people have mentioned to me. One is having different paths for IPv4 and IPv6, presumably because some of the routers only support one or the other, and wouldn't be able to know how to forward the other type. (if all routers support both, I can't quite imagine why you'd want different paths for IPv4 and IPv6. Can anyone explain that?). The other is to solve some of the problems addressed by MPLS traffic engineering; to have certain paths reserved for certain types of traffic (e.g., voice vs data, or reserved paths for some customers who have negotiated an SLA). I could imagine different paths being useful in TRILL for jumbo-frames, but the path could be computed based on the "link MTU size" rather than "topology", I'd think, though one could certainly create a "topology" that is for jumbo-frames, and report infinite cost for links that don't support whatever size "jumbo" is, in that topology. 2) How do switches/routers know which topology to use when forwarding a packet? I'd think the safest thing would be to have a topology name in the LSPs (say "topology 2"), and then have a field in the data packet that specifies "topology 2". If there's an indirect way, as in, IPv4 goes on topology 1, and IPv6 goes on topology 2, that is individually configered at each router, then there is the danger that some router, presumably one that supports both IPv4 and IPv6, forwarding it according to a different topology than other routers. If it's indirect (because there's no room for a "topology" field in a data packet, then it would be good to at least have some router inform the others about how to map a data packet onto a topology. (based on protocol type? TCP port? packet size?...whatever) For TRILL, there was one proposal (that I understood), which was to allocate some of the nickname bits to indicate "topology". Although I understand this one, it makes me nervous because various people have been complaining that they see 16 bits for nickname as not enough...so if we steal 2 or 3 bits for "topology", that leaves even fewer bits for nickname. 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? Thanks, Radia _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 05:53:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784BC21F8847 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:53:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.478 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.478 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.879, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k3pezJRoA2Ms for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A680921F882F for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22DSOww019735; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com (e32.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.150]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22DRkjF019650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from /spool/local by e32.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 06:26:47 -0700 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0437EC9005A for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q22DQk5Y342822 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:26:46 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q22DQjVO006048 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:26:45 -0300 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (sig-9-65-241-85.mts.ibm.com [9.65.241.85]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q22DQiN0005987 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:26:45 -0300 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id q22DPxfw018635; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:25:59 -0500 Message-Id: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> To: Radia Perlman In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Radia Perlman message dated "Thu, 01 Mar 2012 20:05:03 -0800." Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:25:59 -0500 From: Thomas Narten X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12030213-3270-0000-0000-0000047FA392 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: narten@us.ibm.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having completely disjoint paths. TRILL, today, does not really do this. Thomas _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 08:18:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AE321F872F for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:18:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.651, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PKAuXOtH5Wlf for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5171F21F872E for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22G94vD015600; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22G8VSq015522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:08:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=7065; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1330704520; x=1331914120; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=DCm+zpuUDltPtE2vq93RRIPVlsEjWXzlJHFeGiyzgbs=; b=WoHIWGLrAYe+mMQB2hKoC+gOw04eHLoEEBZdJoNU98NpLq43DYWxEoOy dkEpBi4x0prWZfTF1Cwh5H7eJWyZ1ivu0paaaLxXsWUQ/hSoX8LeG4wCP FjK+99ugkPMqB7gvXCtwXufbIiusvMESJ05m2A5YhzkgLaZYclZOQEZnF g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAP7vUE+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABDglKxc4EHgX8BBBIBCREDWwEqBhgHVwEEGxqHYwGfaYEnAZcajEKCP2MEiFCgBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,518,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="31605087" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Mar 2012 16:08:31 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q22G8VmD016723 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:08:31 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:08:31 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:08:30 -0800 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5AD91C2@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 : ICMP vs RFC 4379 message channel Thread-Index: Acz4jrWIpgpvAmH+R+eXyKiWnLpB9w== From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2012 16:08:31.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[B6269C90:01CCF88E] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: [rbridge] draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 : ICMP vs RFC 4379 message channel X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0209668965==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0209668965== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CCF88E.B5FEED26" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF88E.B5FEED26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All =20 Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel defined in RFC 4379. =20 Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port. =20 Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04. =20 Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ? =20 Thanks Tissa ------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF88E.B5FEED26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear = All

 

Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions = defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based = messaging channel defined in RFC 4379.

 

Advantage of = using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM = challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to = define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we = should use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a = different UDP port.

 

Advantage of = ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is commonly = utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and = it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission = draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.

 

Would like = to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other = ?

 

Thanks

Tissa

------_=_NextPart_001_01CCF88E.B5FEED26-- --===============0209668965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0209668965==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 09:56:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B24821E8037 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:56:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.931, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p-81t1dmiZqE for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5103821E8034 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22HOBei028973; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pz0-f52.google.com (mail-pz0-f52.google.com [209.85.210.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22HNWka028889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by dadp12 with SMTP id p12so1943669dad.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of aldrin.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.68.212.232 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.68.212.232; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of aldrin.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.68.212.232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=aldrin.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.68.212.232]) by 10.68.212.232 with SMTP id nn8mr18662672pbc.156.1330709012860 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:23:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=wLlOmufe6QiNLZc5f7f6eA4QAzFdzNECBUd3r2aTq7k=; b=WziyAU+r0ttOuTLmqkSxcbbqQLE+UC2E6U+qDFsppjjPdrbBGasXQHQN17lFmtqI8P 0cKtMRsjgdVuEIvm+YSuhaxJMlntd2LotTRFTCMc/emQJAdpWbEu5ZleOgRnfd9RMuNO hsjR0y/bqzOy1Gkz2HFpLJqEYN0hPpAFVO4Xb+GdRi3GpMvxMgzsl7RPMBY99Ecbfjwq ycPdj0UtwY+Gopn4bHwA6R+VMVyREJh8Yn76Tg5m2UZHbU86Sdb2/1eGIqiOgU/RKwdI /90iMso38bkcCoQ6xGoRiglnGpJ9wjqgfLL99Ltk0+hG6xbFCyLT886qJNedGWxZvqI3 VEdQ== Received: by 10.68.212.232 with SMTP id nn8mr15581986pbc.156.1330709012784; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-107-3-156-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [107.3.156.34]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x1sm5476654pbp.50.2012.03.02.09.23.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:23:30 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) From: Sam Aldrin In-Reply-To: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5AD91C2@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:23:29 -0800 Message-Id: <25E57586-47C6-4FCE-940F-3714E93827DF@gmail.com> References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5AD91C2@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 : ICMP vs RFC 4379 message channel X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0307858438==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0307858438== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DB293A02-BA7B-4CC4-A063-AF6BFDDD81F4" --Apple-Mail=_DB293A02-BA7B-4CC4-A063-AF6BFDDD81F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would prefer UDP based extensions on the lines of RFC4379, with a = standard port assigned for TRILL OAM packets. With UDP based solution, = the change control is in the TRILL OAM specification. When ICMP is used, = the stack has to be upgraded, which is not effective for future = versions. Where as with UDP version, it is totally independent to stack = upgrades, just like MPLS OAM and also UDP stack is present on RBridges = (SNMP access). cheers -sam On Mar 2, 2012, at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) wrote: > Dear All > =20 > Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC = 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel = defined in RFC 4379. > =20 > Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same = framework and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. = However, we need to define new TLV series and message types. Question = arise whether we should use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM = or a use a different UDP port. > =20 > Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure = that is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC = 4884 extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual = submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04. > =20 > Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over = the other ? > =20 > Thanks > Tissa > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail=_DB293A02-BA7B-4CC4-A063-AF6BFDDD81F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I would prefer UDP based extensions on the lines of = RFC4379, with a standard port assigned for TRILL OAM packets. With UDP = based solution, the change control is in the TRILL OAM specification. = When ICMP is used, the stack has to be upgraded, which is not effective = for future versions. Where as with UDP version, it is totally = independent to stack upgrades, just like MPLS OAM and also UDP stack is = present on RBridges (SNMP = access).

cheers
-sam
On Mar 2, = 2012, at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) wrote:

Dear All
 
Current draft-tissa-till-oam = utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard = preference of using UDP based messaging channel defined in RFC = 4379.
 
Advantage of using = RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM challenges = in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define new TLV = series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the same = wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP = port.
 
Advantage of ICMP = method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is commonly = utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and = it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission = draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.
 
Would like to see the = preference from the WG on specific method over the other = ?
 
X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1CD21E802D for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:25:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.258 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.258 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.340, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gD4ayvOS7J3f for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A486921E8019 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22IC7PO007536; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:12:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22IBFlX007414 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so4174701obb.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.60.26.65 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.60.26.65; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.60.26.65 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.60.26.65]) by 10.60.26.65 with SMTP id j1mr5175287oeg.6.1330711875474 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:11:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=T/BrC88g6wJ0v2VYTLtPZ25cf561yOtT5YqgYlnboZE=; b=VMkS2NHEazd5H0rHlreRNxmVQvTABfOv0YJlHeFCaeUG5hrXtYYWdeaKfsm0nqchGc Us7ScPvEmMBdfGj6uxfWj5TNjGc0MikF759L+VXd1Nd6YIEDKy1Eh4m9UCxgnaNrIOjq nSXEuo9kQlx/FAX2b1Kks5xgFH5G8IeOCiwArAsw3f86qxSw8px28okDaehaFZTo67lD +pUxj0xi3qFEgq3FJuXM57Jj2aYCgRHje+F8oXKv8R71tGfC+vD8z9KVzeSirFJJqC2d UIF053RBC3VZ1ANbCvu3JXyrPp6jDRtbHmn+uMw4rzusKMRjKOLmkHJ6qazs9wlRyZIn wWRA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.26.65 with SMTP id j1mr4372998oeg.6.1330711875370; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.1 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:11:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5AD91C2@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5AD91C2@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:11:15 -0800 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 : ICMP vs RFC 4379 message channel X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0719529380==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0719529380== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1eef4a13d9804ba46806c --e89a8fb1eef4a13d9804ba46806c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Tissa, I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels should be good too. My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason that BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irrespective of the lower layer protocol. Thanks, Vishwas On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) < tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote: > Dear All**** > > ** ** > > Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC 4884. > I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel defined > in RFC 4379.**** > > ** ** > > Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework > and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to > define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should > use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP > port.**** > > ** ** > > Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that > is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 > extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual > submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.**** > > ** ** > > Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the > other ?**** > > ** ** > > Thanks**** > > Tissa**** > > --e89a8fb1eef4a13d9804ba46806c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tissa,

I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-mu= ltiplexing MPLS OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets.

On another note= , I do know that folks use different channels for testing real application = behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels should be good too.=

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats= when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason th= at BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irre= spective of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 201= 2 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote:
=

Dear All

=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions = defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messag= ing channel defined in RFC 4379.

=A0

Advantag= e of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM ch= allenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sa= me wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.

=A0

Advantag= e of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is common= ly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-= traceroute-ping-ext-04.

=A0

Would li= ke to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

=A0

Thanks<= /font>

Tissa=



--e89a8fb1eef4a13d9804ba46806c-- --===============0719529380== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0719529380==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 10:28:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 689D321E802D for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:28:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XqqoajlfWfgX for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25F221E8019 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22IMYim009345; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22IM6Pd009306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si04.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI04.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.24]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q22ILqug014153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:22:05 -0500 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhub.lss.emc.com [10.254.221.251]) by hop04-l1d11-si04.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:21:35 -0500 Received: from mxhub03.corp.emc.com (mxhub03.corp.emc.com [10.254.141.105]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q22ILXdB015179; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:21:33 -0500 Received: from mx14a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.157]) by mxhub03.corp.emc.com ([10.254.141.105]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:21:33 -0500 From: To: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:21:32 -0500 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? Thread-Index: Acz4esdu2CZ9oSFSRrCW+cjEInZtMAAJmCtQ Message-ID: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: david.black@emc.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q22IM6Pd009306 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL support DCB Ethernet. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Narten > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM > To: Radia Perlman > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? > > > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? > > Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use > physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. > > But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having > completely disjoint paths. > > TRILL, today, does not really do this. > > Thomas > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 10:57:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3A7021E8042 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:57:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pqwa+3IQVCnk for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC8C21E8019 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22Ip4Kw014784; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [12.22.58.30]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22IoJCK014688 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5546621E805F for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:50:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3-eShkMJIFYh; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7489121E8019; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:50:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.00 Message-ID: <20120302185013.1704.98435.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:50:13 -0800 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: internet-drafts@ietf.org X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q22IoJCK014688 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: [rbridge] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03.txt X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links Working Group of the IETF. Title : TRILL: Header Extension Author(s) : Donald Eastlake Anoop Ghanwani Vishwas Manral Yizhou Li Caitlin Bestler Filename : draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2012-03-02 The IETF TRILL (Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links) base protocol specifies minimal hooks to safely support TRILL Header extensions. This document specifies an initial extension providing additional flag bits and specifies two of those bits. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03.txt _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 11:16:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6BF721F8557 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:16:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.66 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.66 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.542, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gg2wUHPNdPqL for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FA521F8555 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22ImcS7014400; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pz0-f52.google.com (mail-pz0-f52.google.com [209.85.210.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22IluMJ013982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by dadp12 with SMTP id p12so2042197dad.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of aldrin.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.68.223.161 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.68.223.161; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of aldrin.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.68.223.161 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=aldrin.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.68.223.161]) by 10.68.223.161 with SMTP id qv1mr19581551pbc.2.1330714076645 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:47:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=q23Wfl7DHnC9abs7+7rmS1dK96DzyY8nBwxwQjg4JsU=; b=hIzHQupwduln6/w1VA0TaoBuC5PYfBvCf5sLlRmQRmvqAd+DgYttOXrjcHijiF5kZ7 f3gPAvvsd1BBiyJmmThgMWnOiJ5J20SeUQmFTdioIOjDBH81qX0DF5fT9sp9SuKXuKmb dAcc7AKRiSoLZ0OlqxeUVKVY3CdLpe4RZvkk8FmGPolGgJcLb3wV7Ce8w6na3sjghGWl JIjo8cHBiMfE0fCBUTkPnfPNaKbfFitkXlVrry66UgSaCL4F/WSYqXdz1MNr6OXXfjIR DAbbPZDxnugM1KJyPEAyuyuHkHKv9gr+8qRI0so3ZgfPpYOGmYncjfEu9MRyO7S/Vp5o a2hA== Received: by 10.68.223.161 with SMTP id qv1mr16325185pbc.2.1330714076590; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.253.139] ([12.207.18.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y3sm5637792pbr.46.2012.03.02.10.47.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:47:54 -0800 (PST) References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5AD91C2@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <7A958C02-3E5F-4F18-8BCB-3A63F76D8E18@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9A405) From: Sam Aldrin Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:47:53 -0800 To: Vishwas Manral X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 : ICMP vs RFC 4379 message channel X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1070851342==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1070851342== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-48B3B1FB-0471-499C-8FE7-44C6B5957463 --Apple-Mail-48B3B1FB-0471-499C-8FE7-44C6B5957463 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a programm= er hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will be klugy, a= nd have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: had issue wit= h vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible hardware in the ne= twork. Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will help i= mmensely in adopting the standard. Cheers Sam Sent from my iPad On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > Hi Tissa, >=20 > I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS O= AM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. >=20 > On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing r= eal application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels shou= ld be good too.=20 >=20 > My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats wh= en the application works over different layers. It is for that reason that B= FD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irrespect= ive of the lower layer protocol. >=20 > Thanks, > Vishwas >=20 > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) wrote: > Dear All >=20 > =20 >=20 > Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC 4884. I= have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel defined in R= FC 4379. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework a= nd OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to d= efine new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use= the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.= >=20 > =20 >=20 > Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that i= s commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensi= ons and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft= -shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the o= ther ? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Tissa >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail-48B3B1FB-0471-499C-8FE7-44C6B5957463 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Do not have much preferenc= e of reusing the same port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed r= fc4379 and it's implementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when proce= ss is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp p= ing and bfd, due to incompatible hardware in the network.
Having s= aid that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will help immensely= in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam
=
Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Man= ral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com= > wrote:

Hi Tissa,=

I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing= MPLS OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know= that folks use different channels for testing real application behavior in c= urrent networks. So yes UDP based channels should be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats w= hen the application works over different layers. It is for that reason that B= FD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irrespect= ive of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012= at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote:

Dear All

 

=

Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions d= efined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messagin= g channel defined in RFC 4379.

 

Advant= age of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM c= hallenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sam= e wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.<= u>

 

Advant= age of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is commo= nly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-t= raceroute-ping-ext-04.

 

Would l= ike to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

 

Thanks=

Tissa<= u>



____________________= ___________________________
rbridge mailing list
<= span>rbridge@postel.org
= http://= mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
= --Apple-Mail-48B3B1FB-0471-499C-8FE7-44C6B5957463-- --===============1070851342== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1070851342==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 12:03:04 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC6821E805C for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:03:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.863 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.863 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.736, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v6sNHhdEhaxX for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AAC21E801E for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22Je87M023100; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-f52.google.com (mail-bk0-f52.google.com [209.85.214.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22Jdj48023050 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:39:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by bkcjm19 with SMTP id jm19so3204639bkc.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.112.99.3 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.112.99.3; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.112.99.3 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=d3e3e3@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=d3e3e3@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.112.99.3]) by 10.112.99.3 with SMTP id em3mr4925265lbb.74.1330717184396 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IbVyeaZYuKP5oiGASFcJzNp+G1l4ZV70gy/112Y09UU=; b=QcpmpySeHbEtjjcFXEv38JNtmuEtK7kPI9ggNf6j+FnW5gYILCry1QTItpaME/bKC3 1GFoALulOw9Vb4BURPZtcRDc9krs3ajvzJXcUUDZ+c/869DmiwQXechs4I520tT58GOC /IOKr1Ydi69uKFNhZIdzp+WyMfgd+2QifZ/igVTldgWWsKCa11sEaFY8zKidoRnRck/C QY5293wR1eFhBV/4SMibzaiZctW+ffmDBRDd9AdOc90TEL5Z+iuSUBfT9HwQV25LSVF8 P9UBJwfGKD67j7YVlffx/l0BVSmlwKNNTzjKhNG8Knt1ZWqUagIbMz+dPDyrlH9YC7us 08nQ== Received: by 10.112.99.3 with SMTP id em3mr4068364lbb.74.1330717184272; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.80.234 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:39:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:39:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: david.black@emc.com X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q22Jdj48023050 Cc: narten@us.ibm.com, rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, wrote: > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL support D= CB Ethernet. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > Thanks, > --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Thomas Narten >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM >> To: Radia Perlman >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose,= use, etc? >> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? >> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having >> completely disjoint paths. >> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this. >> >> Thomas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 12:13:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC0A21F853E for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:13:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.140, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QrE0nDbUTFfr for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C159121F853D for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22JnIQG024592; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22JmhjN024504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI01.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.54]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q22JmdIR025935 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:48:40 -0500 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhub.lss.emc.com [10.254.222.130]) by hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:48:27 -0500 Received: from mxhub04.corp.emc.com (mxhub04.corp.emc.com [10.254.141.106]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q22JmQ7U009818; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:48:26 -0500 Received: from mx14a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.157]) by mxhub04.corp.emc.com ([10.254.141.106]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:48:26 -0500 From: To: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:48:25 -0500 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? Thread-Index: Acz4rG2FkP3WcHxdSPmeFkSis1TdXAAANDEA Message-ID: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: david.black@emc.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q22JmhjN024504 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org That was a timely submission. My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally part = of DCB, that's no longer considered to be the case. Deployments of DCB Ethernet for FCoE = typically do not include congestion notification. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM > To: Black, David > Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org > Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, = use, etc? > = > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, wrote: > > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL support= DCB Ethernet. > = > See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ > = > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA > =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > = > > Thanks, > > --David > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] O= n Behalf Of Thomas Narten > >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM > >> To: Radia Perlman > >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org > >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpos= e, use, etc? > >> > >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? > >> > >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use > >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. > >> > >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having > >> completely disjoint paths. > >> > >> TRILL, today, does not really do this. > >> > >> Thomas > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rbridge mailing list > >> rbridge@postel.org > >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rbridge mailing list > > rbridge@postel.org > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 12:33:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76FB21F8658 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:33:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.725, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wn8Q8Navtwjl for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5FD21F8656 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22KP3HT000927; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22KNoiw000800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so4338453lah.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 12:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.112.29.38 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.112.29.38; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.112.29.38 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=d3e3e3@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=d3e3e3@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.112.29.38]) by 10.112.29.38 with SMTP id g6mr4878707lbh.102.1330719829534 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 12:23:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZXykzCh4KuDxyKLppiu732cIqD9BIjTe4g9gxckJ0IA=; b=MDRdSqDTeb+aoj3mUJ5uHCYvkpy6ksHbTJ75oytkVezUQBtSsrKmp4Lz4E8mLgJDwu SN5lGZeCWh0wZohHhIa3YzHdZGKGOSc0QXDkIchKheSFtYlIHnjfvtMQs2QCOJ9XuZLp XAb/4jiA3URy0juYjrntt8FkU98VD3v7Shp1ksu5cmg8yyC+KCRCHF+B0ch/KXzcW8u0 uzg8/ufXqxvQrefkKyxcq31DQsJYDNdGwU147HTjsj2Xir6zWBOoj/kuNTywWv43Ln/W rZyyKLoNfSTcmm4JhExcYiDsuaJC3CxCory4T4LU5xp9MPwePqLO4qBkD6p7BWPWmo9V pM8Q== Received: by 10.112.29.38 with SMTP id g6mr4007273lbh.102.1330719829281; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 12:23:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.80.234 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:23:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:23:29 -0500 Message-ID: To: david.black@emc.com X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q22KNoiw000800 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some think it isn't. If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, wrote: > That was a timely submission. > > My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally par= t of DCB, that's > no longer considered to be the case. =A0Deployments of DCB Ethernet for F= CoE typically do > not include congestion notification. > > Thanks, > --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM >> To: Black, David >> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose,= use, etc? >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, =A0 wrote: >> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL suppor= t DCB Ethernet. >> >> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA >> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com >> >> > Thanks, >> > --David >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] = On Behalf Of Thomas Narten >> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM >> >> To: Radia Perlman >> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org >> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpo= se, use, etc? >> >> >> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? >> >> >> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use >> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >> >> >> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having >> >> completely disjoint paths. >> >> >> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this. >> >> >> >> Thomas >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> rbridge mailing list >> >> rbridge@postel.org >> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > rbridge mailing list >> > rbridge@postel.org >> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 14:00:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2757521E807E for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:00:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.285 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.285 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.313, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S4Z2unig-deP for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B98E21E8065 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22Lneup014384; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:49:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22LnOf7014343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so4553028obb.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 13:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.60.27.6 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.60.27.6; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.60.27.6 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.60.27.6]) by 10.60.27.6 with SMTP id p6mr5445529oeg.36.1330724964144 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 13:49:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=HO601GuQ0yYYlKPLg1OpRcSjgzFfPnwOraJ5Wo/gwwU=; b=sPBkr3A+4JdXGxAvHeO2ggLxthdb766OxHm1pFlMfRXRt/x3Mc2QzdCUV/RXzjO5pb 8cz91FuCSzP1uKAQW7fddYmEn2sIpUjLd5mlrX8CygxwYlWDPXT1a+obJC4BbDtP23o8 MaqAM6MmUVi4w41G0prLTFDEt1EsNyA5e3enJWfj2r9nDdwARqtbonITWaRwoQG4arja Po2nBLkehfHOWqXojkKX7luctVAx6ayJ7qF1X1P9OZx7XAnnoInCG3Ke2jyElr0ajsuM IIRXCl6ZQBp+78AYsTsF3aOtb2dduiDWvKqwmdE33jRxlu7pykX/PwBLia/xYWb/MUeI gc7g== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.27.6 with SMTP id p6mr4614907oeg.36.1330724964033; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 13:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.1 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:49:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:49:23 -0800 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: Donald Eastlake X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org, david.black@emc.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0582293863==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0582293863== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1ef18c663a904ba498c84 --e89a8fb1ef18c663a904ba498c84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Agree with you totally here Donald. -Vishwas On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote: > Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some > think it isn't. > > If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka > "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the > queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch > protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 > router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. > > Thanks, > Donald > ============================= > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, wrote: > > That was a timely submission. > > > > My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally > part of DCB, that's > > no longer considered to be the case. Deployments of DCB Ethernet for > FCoE typically do > > not include congestion notification. > > > > Thanks, > > --David > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM > >> To: Black, David > >> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org > >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its > purpose, use, etc? > >> > >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, wrote: > >> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL > support DCB Ethernet. > >> > >> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Donald > >> ============================= > >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > >> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > >> d3e3e3@gmail.com > >> > >> > Thanks, > >> > --David > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] > On Behalf Of Thomas Narten > >> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM > >> >> To: Radia Perlman > >> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org > >> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its > purpose, use, etc? > >> >> > >> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? > >> >> > >> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use > >> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. > >> >> > >> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having > >> >> completely disjoint paths. > >> >> > >> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this. > >> >> > >> >> Thomas > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> rbridge mailing list > >> >> rbridge@postel.org > >> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > rbridge mailing list > >> > rbridge@postel.org > >> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > --e89a8fb1ef18c663a904ba498c84 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree with you totally here Donald.

-Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> = wrote:
Some people think congestion notification (C= N) is important and some
think it isn't.

If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka
"per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch
protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3
router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 P= M, =A0<david.black@emc.com>= ; wrote:
> That was a timely submission.
>
> My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally = part of DCB, that's
> no longer considered to be the case. =A0Deployments of DCB Ethernet fo= r FCoE typically do
> not include congestion notification.
>
> Thanks,
> --David
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:= d3e3e3@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM
>> To: Black, David
>> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org
>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its pu= rpose, use, etc?
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, =A0<david.black@emc.com> wrote:
>> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRI= LL support DCB Ethernet.
>>
>> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-e= astlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
>> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > --David
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Narten
>> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM
>> >> To: Radia Perlman
>> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
>> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology= ...its purpose, use, etc?
>> >>
>> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology = be useful?
>> >>
>> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployment= s use
>> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >> >>
>> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in h= aving
>> >> completely disjoint paths.
>> >>
>> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this.
>> >>
>> >> Thomas
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> rbridge mailing list
>> >> rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
>> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= /a>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > rbridge mailing list
>> > rbridge@postel.org<= br> >> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= br> >

_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

--e89a8fb1ef18c663a904ba498c84-- --===============0582293863== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0582293863==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 14:17:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC37321F8599 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:17:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ra-d1O2Djq9B for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273AB21F8596 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22M1jIg016288; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fncnmp03.fnc.fujitsu.com (fncnmp03.fnc.fujitsu.com [168.127.0.56]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22M11Mp016196 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:01:10 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,520,1325484000"; d="scan'208,217";a="1805014" Received: from rchexhcp2.fnc.net.local ([168.127.134.76]) by fncnmp01.fnc.fujitsu.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 02 Mar 2012 16:01:00 -0600 Received: from RCHEXMBP2.fnc.net.local ([169.254.1.16]) by RCHEXHCP2.fnc.net.local ([168.127.134.76]) with mapi id 14.01.0339.001; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:01:00 -0600 From: "Jonnala, Nagi" To: "rbridge@postel.org" Thread-Topic: Provider Bridging related RFC / Draft Thread-Index: Acz4v/NU/sUytYvuQ8O1p+9ZGoXcJA== Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 22:00:59 +0000 Message-ID: <8A1CB5D4D6A2ED4CA7BC77B92FF829759AEC@RCHEXMBP2.fnc.net.local> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [168.127.136.253] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-10.2.0.1135-6.800.1017-18748.002 x-tm-as-result: No--40.982900-8.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: No x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: nagi.jonnala@us.fujitsu.com Subject: [rbridge] Provider Bridging related RFC / Draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0370877190==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0370877190== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8A1CB5D4D6A2ED4CA7BC77B92FF829759AECRCHEXMBP2fncnetloca_" --_000_8A1CB5D4D6A2ED4CA7BC77B92FF829759AECRCHEXMBP2fncnetloca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks I am trying to catch up on any RFC / Drafts focused on Provider Bridging to= pics. Can anyone provide the pointers please? Thanks in advance Nagi --_000_8A1CB5D4D6A2ED4CA7BC77B92FF829759AECRCHEXMBP2fncnetloca_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks

 

I am trying to catch up on any RFC / Drafts focused = on Provider Bridging topics. Can anyone provide the pointers please?

 

Thanks in advance

Nagi

--_000_8A1CB5D4D6A2ED4CA7BC77B92FF829759AECRCHEXMBP2fncnetloca_-- --===============0370877190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0370877190==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 15:54:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72EFB21F8618 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:54:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.266, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1YKSo93ovo80 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2CC21F861F for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22NY98Q001612; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22NXVsw001555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so4714204obb.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.182.232.106 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.182.232.106; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.182.232.106 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.182.232.106]) by 10.182.232.106 with SMTP id tn10mr4948227obc.6.1330731210980 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:33:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=l/ApV+71MzjOXBrzds9tKxHWp0EV7DM3IFXwBh7/9xM=; b=mP7vJaDMwKH0Yw+y75lebi52UujhtYGn0EOzqrm7ueyWtX4mPsY+dfv3wj3giBdJYB 7vsdmpz8BQDOD0x/5ySqSb3cxmBiT9ZR/xgmN4I7SRBKUbsRiW4MlIE7HSX4jARpATU2 ACxl1eNJvuxKP6HBtYeTijuzTZlr4xPZnQiEvnWLJT5nwrGq9ZIZYVqIOIeGg1rU/qFf SY73ajPiWBqD9ubGLItxgikpstVpjF/PEF6or/lLKB/19fk1qPV/LgFdYKi5ir13ym9l URG7ab48ed0O51MXHL1OR9uV0a1H7lR6U70H0CPaBFjymF6zxqriAckoMrUNxcAD8cFP vdLw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.232.106 with SMTP id tn10mr4241838obc.6.1330731210929; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.1 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:33:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8A1CB5D4D6A2ED4CA7BC77B92FF829759AEC@RCHEXMBP2.fnc.net.local> References: <8A1CB5D4D6A2ED4CA7BC77B92FF829759AEC@RCHEXMBP2.fnc.net.local> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:33:30 -0800 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: "Jonnala, Nagi" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] Provider Bridging related RFC / Draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0424738784==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0424738784== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044473671e756504ba4b01ea --f46d044473671e756504ba4b01ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Nagi, There is no specific document that is SP only in TRILL. There is however work on extensive OAM like features which may be helpful in the Provider use cases. Thanks, Vishwas On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Jonnala, Nagi wrote: > Folks**** > > ** ** > > I am trying to catch up on any RFC / Drafts focused on Provider Bridging > topics. Can anyone provide the pointers please?**** > > ** ** > > Thanks in advance**** > > Nagi **** > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > --f46d044473671e756504ba4b01ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nagi,

There is no specific document that is SP only in TRILL.
There is however=A0 work on extensive OAM like features which may be h= elpful in the Provider use cases.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Jonnala, Nagi <Nagi.Jonnala@us.fujitsu.com>= wrote:

Folks

=A0

I am trying to catch up on any RFC / Drafts focused = on Provider Bridging topics. Can anyone provide the pointers please?=

=A0

Thanks in advance

Nagi


_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge


--f46d044473671e756504ba4b01ea-- --===============0424738784== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0424738784==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 15:58:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04B621E8037 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:58:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uGf4L2D6n0wJ for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8430A21E8029 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22NVeai001089; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q22NV0qQ001024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so4635973lah.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jon.hudson@gmail.com designates 10.152.147.202 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.152.147.202; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jon.hudson@gmail.com designates 10.152.147.202 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jon.hudson@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=jon.hudson@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.152.147.202]) by 10.152.147.202 with SMTP id tm10mr11591709lab.49.1330731059549 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:30:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=djcX4Zv9qF8xvSyMSmw4cG0xdD5+ESERYhSO149y56M=; b=BSF3P6wVqy3drty53cowCOCOz6909oQMDAEUtaaddz+ZvmL2rPMfZ4xM0BadPt1Apf GtuHlOQ59DFm+zcratVWtD3/+X1CncZGQxboe//sB08RetBcSV9HwEvHnfOemM7OusTW vYOaz75Ou835fQXCE9ViK921yxjtP7E2PulORKOXfUGOIBxDoQ2stsP83CNnj5NHxfgI p6m2XJeFlTUOb7nxSQFVviQMoZEQkWNvZLuiXG0VJzY6zyUbicDAoG0XuiDCE6wvbdIY 8UNTYvkJy84rEw/P5CWensGpdlRAnpoRkt6zKWUOubrdkc3cNFFXKrdkMIu1M1eb54QE +W4Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.147.202 with SMTP id tm10mr9467879lab.49.1330731059373; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.10.196 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:30:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:30:59 -0800 Message-ID: From: Jon Hudson To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jon.hudson@gmail.com Cc: Vishwas Manral , Donald Eastlake , david.black@emc.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1835866140==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1835866140== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f23531115e4af04ba4af87c --e89a8f23531115e4af04ba4af87c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 A couple things. 1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's about physical separation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A and path B. I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. This issue becomes that you now have two interfaces on a host from two different networks. FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care of it, and it's all layer 2. However many applications are not designed to listen on two different networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a hypervisor level to solve this for virtual hosts, but it's early. 2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play well with DCB. The fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their "TRILL-ish" products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. So you can use PFC & ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not saying that it's optimal, but I can personally say it works. 3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you really also want some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of value in that. However since there are no working implementations of CN today, it's not yet a problem. While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there is some. My guess is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess. -J On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > Agree with you totally here Donald. > > -Vishwas > > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote: > >> Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some >> think it isn't. >> >> If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka >> "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the >> queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch >> protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 >> router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> ============================= >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >> d3e3e3@gmail.com >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, wrote: >> > That was a timely submission. >> > >> > My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally >> part of DCB, that's >> > no longer considered to be the case. Deployments of DCB Ethernet for >> FCoE typically do >> > not include congestion notification. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > --David >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM >> >> To: Black, David >> >> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org >> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its >> purpose, use, etc? >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, wrote: >> >> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL >> support DCB Ethernet. >> >> >> >> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Donald >> >> ============================= >> >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> >> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >> >> d3e3e3@gmail.com >> >> >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > --David >> >> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] >> On Behalf Of Thomas Narten >> >> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM >> >> >> To: Radia Perlman >> >> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org >> >> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its >> purpose, use, etc? >> >> >> >> >> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? >> >> >> >> >> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use >> >> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having >> >> >> completely disjoint paths. >> >> >> >> >> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this. >> >> >> >> >> >> Thomas >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> rbridge mailing list >> >> >> rbridge@postel.org >> >> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > rbridge mailing list >> >> > rbridge@postel.org >> >> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > -- "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." "Don't worry, be happy" --e89a8f23531115e4af04ba4af87c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A couple things.=A0

1.) For SANs it's just about log= ical separation. It's about physical separation. No electrons bumping i= nto each other between path A and path B.=A0

I hav= e customers today that do this today with FCoE. This issue becomes that you= now have two interfaces on a host from two different networks. FCoE doesn&= #39;t care as the multipathing driver takes care of it, and it's all la= yer 2. However many applications are not designed to listen on two differen= t networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a hypervisor level to solve= this for virtual hosts, but it's early.=A0

2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play we= ll with DCB. The fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their = "TRILL-ish" products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. S= o you can use PFC & ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not sayi= ng that it's optimal, but I can personally say it works.=A0

3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then y= ou really also want some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot o= f value in that.=A0

However since there are no wor= king implementations of CN today, it's not yet a problem.=A0

While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there = is some. My guess is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess.= =A0

-J

On= Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wr= ote:
Agree with you totally here Donald.

-Vishwas


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at= 12:23 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
Some people think congestion notification (C= N) is important and some
think it isn't.

If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka
"per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch
protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3
router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, =A0<david.black@emc.com> wrote:
> That was a timely submission.
>
> My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally = part of DCB, that's
> no longer considered to be the case. =A0Deployments of DCB Ethernet fo= r FCoE typically do
> not include congestion notification.
>
> Thanks,
> --David
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM
>> To: Black, David
>> Cc: narten@= us.ibm.com; rbr= idge@postel.org
>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its pu= rpose, use, etc?
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, =A0<david.black@emc.com> wrote:
>> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRI= LL support DCB Ethernet.
>>
>> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-e= astlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
>> =A0d3e3e3@gm= ail.com
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > --David
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On= Behalf Of Thomas Narten
>> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM
>> >> To: Radia Perlman
>> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology= ...its purpose, use, etc?
>> >>
>> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology = be useful?
>> >>
>> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployment= s use
>> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >> >>
>> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in h= aving
>> >> completely disjoint paths.
>> >>
>> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this.
>> >>
>> >> Thomas
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> rbridge mailing list
>> >> r= bridge@postel.org
>> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= /a>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > rbridge mailing list
>> > rbrid= ge@postel.org
>> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= br> >

_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge


_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do= not lie. And do not do what you hate."
"Don't worry, be h= appy"
--e89a8f23531115e4af04ba4af87c-- --===============1835866140== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1835866140==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 16:58:19 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A468521F8446 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:58:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.351, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_FWDLOOK=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eW8oQjUsT42m for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8920321F8445 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q230Zehs011176; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pz0-f52.google.com (mail-pz0-f52.google.com [209.85.210.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q230ZLCe011146 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by dadp12 with SMTP id p12so2372465dad.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of aldrin.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.68.196.161 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.68.196.161; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of aldrin.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.68.196.161 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=aldrin.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.68.196.161]) by 10.68.196.161 with SMTP id in1mr22247572pbc.78.1330734921440 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:35:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=CWIbZ58EocSYxUkEXkJpuN8AiuXi/Cr/s6PIL8viJ7s=; b=UXmTo/lBYQp7flg0EjqN5lmEXgEdJMJh5dJBiMXwsf9LCXw6KK0KoSD4DIKQRcboka kLBl80aL3/hWIriZ6NAdALKuSZnwLhsLzxK0ciEKGoNceijdGwtszNjB79RU0KV+xG2n 9YBOnCjr2E+CANNb0vaz02DSpAZ/rXF+WsnOdGw+QjFL7YEJ3osEZ7UotaLfebCE2pOq 6203F4d1xbORS5w+XMsDe9YmDMCwdKjdFeQiWmzZRkvDJdSqAVhEIPFyNICBr0ctOR36 UnEGbP87f+wwZBXw14CJgs+QxG6Dy0ElyYbeGL7ePCM4+WpNE1lFNDtwRDLlPGH2kcOh HnPQ== Received: by 10.68.196.161 with SMTP id in1mr18576760pbc.78.1330734921239; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.253.139] ([12.207.18.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q3sm6289318pbc.63.2012.03.02.16.35.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:35:20 -0800 (PST) References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <8FD590D0-E5E3-43D1-B2B9-56F449D40B0E@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9A405) From: Sam Aldrin Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:35:18 -0800 To: Jon Hudson X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , Vishwas Manral , "david.black@emc.com" , Donald Eastlake Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2033117316==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============2033117316== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-FEA7B6F1-3B77-4EC2-A59A-D886A3D2D8CE --Apple-Mail-FEA7B6F1-3B77-4EC2-A59A-D886A3D2D8CE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Nicely put, Jon. Understand that there are no existing deployments with CN for TRILL today. Forward looking, it would be very helpful to understand the need and it woul= d be good to hear how much of usefulness and real case scenarios exist for T= RILL to work with CN. As this question keeps popping up every now and then, w= ould like to hear more details on this. Thanks Sam Sent from my iPad On Mar 2, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Jon Hudson wrote: > A couple things.=20 >=20 > 1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's about physical separ= ation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A and path B.=20 >=20 > I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. This issue becomes th= at you now have two interfaces on a host from two different networks. FCoE d= oesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care of it, and it's all layer 2= . However many applications are not designed to listen on two different netw= orks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a hypervisor level to solve this f= or virtual hosts, but it's early.=20 >=20 > 2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play well with DCB. The fa= ct is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their "TRILL-ish" products= . And they both only support FCoE with DCB. So you can use PFC & ETS without= interacting with TRILL at all. Not saying that it's optimal, but I can pers= onally say it works.=20 >=20 > 3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you really also want= some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of value in that.=20 >=20 > However since there are no working implementations of CN today, it's not y= et a problem.=20 >=20 > While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there is some. My guess i= s less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess.=20 >=20 > -J >=20 > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Vishwas Manral wr= ote: > Agree with you totally here Donald. >=20 > -Vishwas >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote:= > Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some > think it isn't. >=20 > If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka > "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the > queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch > protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 > router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. >=20 > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com >=20 > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, wrote: > > That was a timely submission. > > > > My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally pa= rt of DCB, that's > > no longer considered to be the case. Deployments of DCB Ethernet for FC= oE typically do > > not include congestion notification. > > > > Thanks, > > --David > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM > >> To: Black, David > >> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org > >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose= , use, etc? > >> > >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, wrote: > >> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL suppo= rt DCB Ethernet. > >> > >> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Donald > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > >> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > >> d3e3e3@gmail.com > >> > >> > Thanks, > >> > --David > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org]= On Behalf Of Thomas Narten > >> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM > >> >> To: Radia Perlman > >> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org > >> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purp= ose, use, etc? > >> >> > >> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? > >> >> > >> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use > >> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. > >> >> > >> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having > >> >> completely disjoint paths. > >> >> > >> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this. > >> >> > >> >> Thomas > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> rbridge mailing list > >> >> rbridge@postel.org > >> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > rbridge mailing list > >> > rbridge@postel.org > >> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." > "Don't worry, be happy" > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail-FEA7B6F1-3B77-4EC2-A59A-D886A3D2D8CE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Nicely put, Jon.

Understand that there are no existing deployments with CN fo= r TRILL today.
Forward looking, it would be very helpful to unders= tand the need and it would be good to hear how much of usefulness and real c= ase scenarios exist for TRILL to work with CN. As this question keeps poppin= g up every now and then, would like to hear more details on this.
=
Thanks
Sam

Sent from my iPad

O= n Mar 2, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Jon Hudson <jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

A couple things. 

1.) For SANs i= t's just about logical separation. It's about physical separation. No electr= ons bumping into each other between path A and path B. 

<= /div>
I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. This issue be= comes that you now have two interfaces on a host from two different networks= . FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care of it, and it's al= l layer 2. However many applications are not designed to listen on two diffe= rent networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a hypervisor level to sol= ve this for virtual hosts, but it's early. 

2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play wel= l with DCB. The fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their "T= RILL-ish" products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. So you can use= PFC & ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not saying that it's o= ptimal, but I can personally say it works. 

3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then yo= u really also want some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of v= alue in that. 

However since there are no work= ing implementations of CN today, it's not yet a problem. 

While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there i= s some. My guess is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess.&nbs= p;

-J

On Fri= , Mar 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Agree with you totally here Donald.

-Vishwas


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1= 2:23 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
Some people think congestion notification (CN)= is important and some
think it isn't.

If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka
"per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the
queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch
protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3
router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com=

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM,  <david.black@emc.com> wrote: > That was a timely submission.
>
> My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally p= art of DCB, that's
> no longer considered to be the case.  Deployments of DCB Ethernet f= or FCoE typically do
> not include congestion notification.
>
> Thanks,
> --David
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM
>> To: Black, David
>> Cc: narten@u= s.ibm.com; rbrid= ge@postel.org
>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its pur= pose, use, etc?
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM,  <david.black@emc.com> wrote:
>> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRIL= L support DCB Ethernet.
>>
>> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eas= tlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<= br> >>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>  d3e3e3@= gmail.com
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > --David
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Be= half Of Thomas Narten
>> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM
>> >> To: Radia Perlman
>> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology.= ..its purpose, use, etc?
>> >>
>> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology b= e useful?
>> >>
>> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments= use
>> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >> >>
>> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in ha= ving
>> >> completely disjoint paths.
>> >>
>> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this.
>> >>
>> >> Thomas
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> rbridge mailing list
>> >> rb= ridge@postel.org
>> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > rbridge mailing list
>> > rbridg= e@postel.org
>> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >

_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge


_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do not l= ie. And do not do what you hate."
"Don't worry, be happy"
____________________= ___________________________
rbridge mailing list
<= span>rbridge@postel.org
= http://= mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
= --Apple-Mail-FEA7B6F1-3B77-4EC2-A59A-D886A3D2D8CE-- --===============2033117316== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============2033117316==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 17:08:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DDA21E801A for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:08:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.715, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rz-XKTGMTt8w for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E077221E8089 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q230qf6Y013788; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q230qQdv013766 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so4726863lah.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.112.29.38 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.112.29.38; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.112.29.38 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=d3e3e3@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=d3e3e3@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.112.29.38]) by 10.112.29.38 with SMTP id g6mr5211911lbh.102.1330735945343 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:52:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P7sycMs2UTBikYWIxKcWoCdy5R+iaK5RNjyK/JpV1aY=; b=qi5/4zY+TvY3PttGm1fsxz+i8yQl7Jvo6bC9h8B4xH1p1425urLN8KLWr2H1BwLQ4Q /H6dABK6q/ybPC4X4Ov33efjTuzaJztPuMQVrTimG+gI5olPj8lZpiFEG6/W3dfX55LA Oc8D4VcO7ORSsMmUNgpmoaaZEWC3DhhFky5T25+8FCFzKgx8zE/FPMrX/XrGmz70GKiG yJWBep/0BeJt4vnVFXV46wi7JSnC7mhSGdJkGwdDmkPUf4+oPjTfwEUdmk4CCI2tPFfW Eoqz4197P0eV70yaxu0TV1xsE/A1KOQNNso40irrUOLCr4NwVVDDu5MnhQGL6qJH+ZLg 2bdg== Received: by 10.112.29.38 with SMTP id g6mr4280258lbh.102.1330735945229; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:52:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.80.234 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:52:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120302185013.1704.98435.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20120302185013.1704.98435.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:52:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q230qQdv013766 Subject: Re: [rbridge] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03.txt X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This version has the change to Section 2.4 that has been discussed. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:50 PM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots= of Links Working Group of the IETF. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : TRILL: Header Extension > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : Donald Eastlake > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Anoop Ghanwani > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Vishwas Manral > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Yizhou Li > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Caitlin Bestler > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extensi= on-03.txt > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 16 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2012-03-02 > > =A0 The IETF TRILL (Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links) base > =A0 protocol specifies minimal hooks to safely support TRILL Header > =A0 extensions. This document specifies an initial extension providing > =A0 additional flag bits and specifies two of those bits. > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03= .txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03.= txt > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 21:03:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191E721F8547 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:03:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uzpkI0Fe2G9A for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6784521F854A for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q234q1WF017713; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.force10networks.com (maa.force10networks.com [59.163.202.254]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q234pASp017655 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com ([10.16.127.20]) by exch7-maa-fe.force10networks.com ([10.16.126.10]) with mapi; Sat, 3 Mar 2012 10:20:57 +0530 From: Balaji Venkat Venkataswami To: "rbridge@postel.org" Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 10:20:55 +0530 Thread-Topic: Request for comments on draft Thread-Index: Acz4+TgVr5zdyEfZRomVA98+qNSvIA== Message-ID: <5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B492219394DB83E2E@EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: balajivenkat@force10networks.com Cc: Bhargav Bhikkaji , Narayana Perumal Subject: [rbridge] Request for comments on draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0847811486==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0847811486== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B492219394DB83E2EEXCHCLUSTER11_" --_000_5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B492219394DB83E2EEXCHCLUSTER11_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, I have posted the following draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-balaji-trill-over-ip-multi-level-03 to the working group for your kind consideration. Your comments / feedback is most welcome on this draft. thanks and regards, balaji venkat --_000_5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B492219394DB83E2EEXCHCLUSTER11_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all,

 

I have posted the following draft

 

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-balaji-trill-over-ip-multi-level-03=

 

to the working group for your kind consideration.=

 

Your comments / feedback is most welcome on this draft= .

 

thanks and regards,

balaji venkat

--_000_5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B492219394DB83E2EEXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============0847811486== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0847811486==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 2 23:41:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7012E21E807D for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:41:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.599, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8JrrT9gukZs for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A129721E802B for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q237VQcA008524; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f52.google.com (mail-pw0-f52.google.com [209.85.160.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q237UgjG008469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by pbcum15 with SMTP id um15so3623856pbc.39 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jon.hudson@gmail.com designates 10.68.240.164 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.68.240.164; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jon.hudson@gmail.com designates 10.68.240.164 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jon.hudson@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=jon.hudson@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.68.240.164]) by 10.68.240.164 with SMTP id wb4mr24960995pbc.57.1330759841731 (num_hops = 1); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:30:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=OLMyR50+jk4dEZX9WDzIC4aoNL8VxilAvXNeNQ/9IMo=; b=bBTl+QqaHtnmUAC6xxRGKeQFwcTacKZHXw4BGvjzNHX0rvVeWLSvS0z1D2trhyt6OX Pjxd1OuN/uPMmUEXimvMpb8CRI4AZ0VnB4UZk8Z8whYA2LVrjm7bLh9YtUIu3JPK8OtJ 3lCiUzNuGV4a3BAoOOX/qUw4GnDUww9clGBmDqmss88QrjJ3zbfYQwblbXqh+YlGeAkF jKjkFRo2wm83ZwHcIJtRz56RDouNUzlzunO6oMT09TGAOR9razgKo2NcUD11auIHECHS ql341fp+IfP8SwiCOj0QYhF7Nh/vtkM7V/0mvF4bPYnwU9NPwoZTjfkgnbu6ldhGRu7/ 2bBQ== Received: by 10.68.240.164 with SMTP id wb4mr20926977pbc.57.1330759841618; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.15] (c-98-234-218-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [98.234.218.27]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k6sm7157016pbl.27.2012.03.02.23.30.39 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:30:40 -0800 (PST) References: <8A1CB5D4D6A2ED4CA7BC77B92FF829759AEC@RCHEXMBP2.fnc.net.local> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <2A9242F2-883A-4126-821E-336D85A01AA3@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) From: Jon Hudson Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:30:35 -0800 To: Vishwas Manral , "Nagi.Jonnala@us.fujitsu.com" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jon.hudson@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] Provider Bridging related RFC / Draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1850995833==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1850995833== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6DCB0782-80CC-4F97-BCE1-EB979E169D92 --Apple-Mail-6DCB0782-80CC-4F97-BCE1-EB979E169D92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii However I would add a trend I am seeing on the SP side. Many European countries have rather large IX sites (exchanges) like AMS-IX, D= E-CIX, NL-IX or R-IX. A large number of them have L2 only 10G aggregation layers that currently ru= n spanning tree. I have personally met with 3 of them and I know of others that are seriously= considering TRILL to handle this part of their network. No production deployments yet that I know of. But TRILL may yet serve a very= valuable role for the IX's across the pond for Bridging. It's personal story, not a draft/RFC/doc Still hopefully at least interestin= g to someone researching Provider Bridging Topics. -J On Mar 2, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > Hi Nagi, >=20 > There is no specific document that is SP only in TRILL.=20 >=20 > There is however work on extensive OAM like features which may be helpful= in the Provider use cases. >=20 > Thanks, > Vishwas >=20 > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Jonnala, Nagi wrote: > Folks >=20 > =20 >=20 > I am trying to catch up on any RFC / Drafts focused on Provider Bridging t= opics. Can anyone provide the pointers please? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Thanks in advance >=20 > Nagi >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail-6DCB0782-80CC-4F97-BCE1-EB979E169D92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
However I would add a tren= d I am seeing on the SP side.

Many European countri= es have rather large IX sites (exchanges) like AMS-IX, DE-CIX, NL-IX or R-IX= .

A large number of them have L2 only 10G aggregati= on layers that currently run spanning tree.

I have p= ersonally met with 3 of them and I know of others that are seriously conside= ring TRILL to handle this part of their network.

No= production deployments yet that I know of. But TRILL may yet serve a very v= aluable role for the IX's across the pond for Bridging.

=
It's personal story, not a draft/RFC/doc Still hopefully at least inter= esting to someone researching Provider Bridging Topics.

=
-J

On Mar 2, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Nagi,

There is no spe= cific document that is SP only in TRILL.

There is however  work= on extensive OAM like features which may be helpful in the Provider use cas= es.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Jonnala, Nagi <Nagi.Jonnala@us.fujitsu.com> wrote:

Folks

 

I am trying to catch up on any RFC / Drafts focused o= n Provider Bridging topics. Can anyone provide the pointers please?

 

Thanks in advance

Nagi


_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge


____________________= ___________________________
rbridge mailing list
<= span>rbridge@postel.org
= http://= mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
= --Apple-Mail-6DCB0782-80CC-4F97-BCE1-EB979E169D92-- --===============1850995833== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1850995833==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sun Mar 4 18:30:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69EFC21F8623 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:30:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sb5S6D0f3uQL for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B3621F85FD for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2526Ri4011693; Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q252601D011661 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M0E0026C35YQP@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:05:58 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M0E003VW35C47@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:05:58 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHO61209; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:05:57 +0800 Received: from SZXEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.138) by szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:05:56 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.237]) by szxeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:05:51 +0800 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 02:05:50 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.108.4.52] To: Radia Perlman , "rbridge@postel.org" Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E71F4413AE@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? Thread-index: AQHM+C0nSAkwhtQ6EUWASdgSlqMzjJZa+DQQ X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Multi-Topology (MT) provides physical separation of TRILL traffic. Similar as the MT in layer3, it can be used to achieve a more load-balanced TRILL campus than ECMP; If MTs are set up intentionally (e.g., disjoint MTs), it can be used to realize fast rerouting under failures. But there are some differences between the layer2 MT and layer3 MT. For example, the use of layer2 MT further confines the broadcast domain besides VLAN; The MAC sharing between different topologies is a new topic. The MAC sharing among different topologies future pertain to the asymmetric use of MTs. One usage of MT I want to add into the discussion is to use MT to distinguish the traffic flow ingressed/egressed by multi-homing members. In this way, we can get rid of the RPFC issue caused by active-active multi-homing. For more information, one can read the draft, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Thanks, Mingui > -----Original Message----- > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On > Behalf Of Radia Perlman > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 12:05 PM > To: rbridge@postel.org > Subject: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, > etc? > > I understand the concept of adding per-topology costs to IS-IS, and > having different forwarding tables computed for each topology. > However, especially in order to imagine how it might (as claimed) > solve various problems, I'd like to have people explain the following, > or any other questions that people might like to toss into the > discussion. If it will help, I'll try to make a stab at answering my > own questions. > > 1) What problem was multi-topology intended to solve? > > There are two things I could imagine, or that people have mentioned to > me. One is having different paths for IPv4 and IPv6, presumably > because some of the routers only support one or the other, and > wouldn't be able to know how to forward the other type. (if all > routers support both, I can't quite imagine why you'd want different > paths for IPv4 and IPv6. Can anyone explain that?). The other is to > solve some of the problems addressed by MPLS traffic engineering; to > have certain paths reserved for certain types of traffic (e.g., voice > vs data, or reserved paths for some customers who have negotiated an > SLA). > > I could imagine different paths being useful in TRILL for > jumbo-frames, but the path could be computed based on the "link MTU > size" rather than "topology", I'd think, though one could certainly > create a "topology" that is for jumbo-frames, and report infinite cost > for links that don't support whatever size "jumbo" is, in that > topology. > > 2) How do switches/routers know which topology to use when forwarding a > packet? > > I'd think the safest thing would be to have a topology name in the > LSPs (say "topology 2"), and then have a field in the data packet that > specifies "topology 2". If there's an indirect way, as in, IPv4 goes > on topology 1, and IPv6 goes on topology 2, that is individually > configered at each router, then there is the danger that some router, > presumably one that supports both IPv4 and IPv6, forwarding it > according to a different topology than other routers. > > If it's indirect (because there's no room for a "topology" field in a > data packet, then it would be good to at least have some router inform > the others about how to map a data packet onto a topology. (based on > protocol type? TCP port? packet size?...whatever) > > For TRILL, there was one proposal (that I understood), which was to > allocate some of the nickname bits to indicate "topology". Although I > understand this one, it makes me nervous because various people have > been complaining that they see 16 bits for nickname as not enough...so > if we steal 2 or 3 bits for "topology", that leaves even fewer bits > for nickname. > > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? > > Thanks, > > Radia > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 5 13:14:05 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BAE221F888E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 13:14:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.335 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.263, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KOizB1Kv7ue2 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 13:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58CB621F884A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 13:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q25KqqBS011711; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q25KqRxD011663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so8857863obb.39 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.60.27.6 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.60.27.6; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.60.27.6 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.60.27.6]) by 10.60.27.6 with SMTP id p6mr10291475oeg.36.1330980746364 (num_hops = 1); Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:52:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=PYbBOaCJ3Sr6AIKamWoV4YTxctHa7NCKo1lSPilRxQg=; b=bPxLw+tF8WxkBE5eRMILH+bycvfv3+DocCAVon3QqM9BDn6Kd6llYZHJMOnD++1BV3 vt+0lol4vPmkZMcsQ3KUTNUmR4utnq9xoQiADlg/ftz3PNXB722JBJcjeST5WX1OMd/l QH1OXkkWfSS4eHx8ipSeAu0T93UnjDSZJbtG3AsquN4m0YVtxD8wP/ujfyPA3j6mfo3p 1dQIVce227aZN0xAOUP3kJr40tHPxAvlwKoMYuWAkxgJPO8p+W0cq9WZtkBmyDcjl2CN M4SxXSi+/L4fIU7i2TOhcm9hSFRGOBiQ8JFYgdwT+vNAfrEM9x5CLCrMuzsAB/65o11E LjIA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.27.6 with SMTP id p6mr8897175oeg.36.1330980746214; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.1 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:52:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:52:26 -0800 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: Jon Hudson X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org, Donald Eastlake , david.black@emc.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1156675355==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1156675355== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1ef1894beef04ba851ab6 --e89a8fb1ef1894beef04ba851ab6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Jon, > 1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's about physical > separation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A and path B. > > I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. This issue becomes > that you now have two interfaces on a host from two different networks. > FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care of it, and it's all > layer 2. However many applications are not designed to listen on two > different networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a hypervisor level > to solve this for virtual hosts, but it's early. > I know SAN vendors would want to have separate interfaces altogether on servers. However using a CNA and a single Ethernet interface on the host, the nirvana we were supposed to achieve with FCoE. I agree in a lot of cases even if we use FCoE, we would want separate networks (after first hop) for different kinds of traffic. In which case we would have some parts of the network, that could be common and some that would not be. Am I missing the point you are making? > > 2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play well with DCB. The > fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their "TRILL-ish" > products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. So you can use PFC & > ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not saying that it's optimal, > but I can personally say it works. > > I guess what you are talking about is not end-to-end Ethernet forwarding with FCoE, but a hop by hop, where the forwarding is done by FCF (and not Ethernet switching). We are talking about a case where we have Ethernet forwarding as a lot of the Enterprises may like. We do not need TRILL to be DCB aware except for the case of end-to-end messaging like PFC. > 3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you really also want > some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of value in that. > > Correct. > However since there are no working implementations of CN today, it's not > yet a problem. > Ok. > > While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there is some. My guess > is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess. > > Do you mean end-to-end FCoE here or do you mean single hop? > -J > Thanks, Vishwas > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > >> Agree with you totally here Donald. >> >> -Vishwas >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >> >>> Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some >>> think it isn't. >>> >>> If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka >>> "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the >>> queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch >>> protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 >>> router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Donald >>> ============================= >>> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >>> d3e3e3@gmail.com >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, wrote: >>> > That was a timely submission. >>> > >>> > My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally >>> part of DCB, that's >>> > no longer considered to be the case. Deployments of DCB Ethernet for >>> FCoE typically do >>> > not include congestion notification. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > --David >>> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] >>> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM >>> >> To: Black, David >>> >> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org >>> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its >>> purpose, use, etc? >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, wrote: >>> >> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL >>> support DCB Ethernet. >>> >> >>> >> See >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ >>> >> >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> Donald >>> >> ============================= >>> >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>> >> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >>> >> d3e3e3@gmail.com >>> >> >>> >> > Thanks, >>> >> > --David >>> >> > >>> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto: >>> rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Narten >>> >> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM >>> >> >> To: Radia Perlman >>> >> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org >>> >> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its >>> purpose, use, etc? >>> >> >> >>> >> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use >>> >> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having >>> >> >> completely disjoint paths. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Thomas >>> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> rbridge mailing list >>> >> >> rbridge@postel.org >>> >> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > rbridge mailing list >>> >> > rbridge@postel.org >>> >> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> >> > > > -- > "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." > "Don't worry, be happy" > --e89a8fb1ef1894beef04ba851ab6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jon,

1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's about = physical separation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A an= d path B.=A0

I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. Th= is issue becomes that you now have two interfaces on a host from two differ= ent networks. FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care o= f it, and it's all layer 2. However many applications are not designed = to listen on two different networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a = hypervisor level to solve this for virtual hosts, but it's early.=A0
I know SAN vendors would want to have separate interfaces= altogether on servers. However using a CNA and a single Ethernet interface= on the host, the nirvana we were supposed to achieve with FCoE.

I agree in a lot of cases even if we use FCoE, we would want separate netwo= rks (after first hop) for different kinds of traffic. In which case we woul= d have some parts of the network, that could=A0 be common and some that wou= ld not be. Am I missing the point you are making?
=A0

2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play we= ll with DCB. The fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their = "TRILL-ish" products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. S= o you can use PFC & ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not sayi= ng that it's optimal, but I can personally say it works.=A0

I guess what you are talking about is not = end-to-end Ethernet forwarding with FCoE, but a hop by hop, where the forwa= rding is done by FCF (and not Ethernet switching).

We are talking ab= out a case where we have Ethernet forwarding as a lot of the Enterprises ma= y like. We do not need TRILL to be DCB aware except for the case of end-to-= end messaging like PFC.
=A0
<= div>3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you really also w= ant some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of value in that.= =A0

Correct.
=A0
However since there are no= working implementations of CN today, it's not yet a problem.=A0
Ok.
=A0

While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there = is some. My guess is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess.= =A0

Do you mean end-to-end FCoE here = or do you mean single hop?
-J<= /div>

Thanks,
Vishwas
=A0

On Fri, Mar 2, 2= 012 at 1:49 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>= wrote:
Agree with you totally here Donald.

-Vishwas


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Do= nald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
Some people think congestion notification (C= N) is important and some
think it isn't.

If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka
"per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch
protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3
router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, =A0<david.black@emc.com> wrote:
> That was a timely submission.
>
> My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally = part of DCB, that's
> no longer considered to be the case. =A0Deployments of DCB Ethernet fo= r FCoE typically do
> not include congestion notification.
>
> Thanks,
> --David
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM
>> To: Black, David
>> Cc: narten@= us.ibm.com; rbr= idge@postel.org
>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its pu= rpose, use, etc?
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, =A0<david.black@emc.com> wrote:
>> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRI= LL support DCB Ethernet.
>>
>> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-e= astlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
>> =A0d3e3e3@gm= ail.com
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > --David
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On= Behalf Of Thomas Narten
>> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM
>> >> To: Radia Perlman
>> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology= ...its purpose, use, etc?
>> >>
>> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology = be useful?
>> >>
>> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployment= s use
>> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >> >>
>> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in h= aving
>> >> completely disjoint paths.
>> >>
>> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this.
>> >>
>> >> Thomas
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> rbridge mailing list
>> >> r= bridge@postel.org
>> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= /a>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > rbridge mailing list
>> > rbrid= ge@postel.org
>> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= br> >

_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge


_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do not lie. And do= not do what you hate."
"Don't worry, be happy"

--e89a8fb1ef1894beef04ba851ab6-- --===============1156675355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1156675355==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 5 13:22:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50ACF21E8040 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 13:22:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.222, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ct9SlHX4ZQqA for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 13:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E8A21E803C for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 13:22:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q25KtOuR012328; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gy0-f180.google.com (mail-gy0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q25Ksfcn012254 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by ghbz12 with SMTP id z12so2748561ghb.39 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.60.27.6 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.60.27.6; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.60.27.6 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.60.27.6]) by 10.60.27.6 with SMTP id p6mr10294990oeg.36.1330980880895 (num_hops = 1); Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:54:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=VpV0TQr+bCmRmhcJ+wvKQkoM/as04bXSLZAm32YvqYk=; b=MORRPvDMvI3PCnATV5F35+vVCllTVoUmZ4K1W3O3tFVVgDwlju6I1ugERyqS+ESH+J X+aAl3bGeLiL3lfhNDKbMkHPGkfID8k5JU9TQf+b+gY/Nh7t7JV4S35KzxefWDYmq3+9 xjlvh+paEZzjnk8jE4lBDahnhVI4cbTxA7ZVyg3w6WtEaPImgIaHi1anKkgigUJHMJtk DousmlP8nuodO5MDO9FqjXAnY/EUHu+AGZw43GDtkTEAedlXSnpKTrzOONMsZVCBs9t2 HAp9d+c95SqkoIRdt6HYAO/z2MAZ2JVGgKh3Xp5ybHAkmnEwR7XJMB/2PlC5e5uV9s9O 0gyg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.27.6 with SMTP id p6mr8900265oeg.36.1330980880801; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.1 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:54:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E71F4413AE@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E71F4413AE@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:54:40 -0800 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: Mingui Zhang X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , Radia Perlman Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0283545014==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0283545014== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1ef189a5f2e04ba85226d --e89a8fb1ef189a5f2e04ba85226d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Mingui, I agree the case you mention could be a use case for MT too. In my view MT provides tools we can use for multiple purposes - including gaining scalability as Tissa from Cisco pointed out. :) Thanks, Vishwas On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Mingui Zhang wrote: > Multi-Topology (MT) provides physical separation of TRILL traffic. Similar > as the MT in layer3, it can be used to achieve a more load-balanced TRILL > campus than ECMP; If MTs are set up intentionally (e.g., disjoint MTs), it > can be used to realize fast rerouting under failures. But there are some > differences between the layer2 MT and layer3 MT. For example, the use of > layer2 MT further confines the broadcast domain besides VLAN; The MAC > sharing between different topologies is a new topic. The MAC sharing among > different topologies future pertain to the asymmetric use of MTs. > > One usage of MT I want to add into the discussion is to use MT to > distinguish the traffic flow ingressed/egressed by multi-homing members. In > this way, we can get rid of the RPFC issue caused by active-active > multi-homing. For more information, one can read the draft, > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. > > Thanks, > Mingui > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] > On > > Behalf Of Radia Perlman > > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 12:05 PM > > To: rbridge@postel.org > > Subject: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, > use, > > etc? > > > > I understand the concept of adding per-topology costs to IS-IS, and > > having different forwarding tables computed for each topology. > > However, especially in order to imagine how it might (as claimed) > > solve various problems, I'd like to have people explain the following, > > or any other questions that people might like to toss into the > > discussion. If it will help, I'll try to make a stab at answering my > > own questions. > > > > 1) What problem was multi-topology intended to solve? > > > > There are two things I could imagine, or that people have mentioned to > > me. One is having different paths for IPv4 and IPv6, presumably > > because some of the routers only support one or the other, and > > wouldn't be able to know how to forward the other type. (if all > > routers support both, I can't quite imagine why you'd want different > > paths for IPv4 and IPv6. Can anyone explain that?). The other is to > > solve some of the problems addressed by MPLS traffic engineering; to > > have certain paths reserved for certain types of traffic (e.g., voice > > vs data, or reserved paths for some customers who have negotiated an > > SLA). > > > > I could imagine different paths being useful in TRILL for > > jumbo-frames, but the path could be computed based on the "link MTU > > size" rather than "topology", I'd think, though one could certainly > > create a "topology" that is for jumbo-frames, and report infinite cost > > for links that don't support whatever size "jumbo" is, in that > > topology. > > > > 2) How do switches/routers know which topology to use when forwarding a > > packet? > > > > I'd think the safest thing would be to have a topology name in the > > LSPs (say "topology 2"), and then have a field in the data packet that > > specifies "topology 2". If there's an indirect way, as in, IPv4 goes > > on topology 1, and IPv6 goes on topology 2, that is individually > > configered at each router, then there is the danger that some router, > > presumably one that supports both IPv4 and IPv6, forwarding it > > according to a different topology than other routers. > > > > If it's indirect (because there's no room for a "topology" field in a > > data packet, then it would be good to at least have some router inform > > the others about how to map a data packet onto a topology. (based on > > protocol type? TCP port? packet size?...whatever) > > > > For TRILL, there was one proposal (that I understood), which was to > > allocate some of the nickname bits to indicate "topology". Although I > > understand this one, it makes me nervous because various people have > > been complaining that they see 16 bits for nickname as not enough...so > > if we steal 2 or 3 bits for "topology", that leaves even fewer bits > > for nickname. > > > > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Radia > > _______________________________________________ > > rbridge mailing list > > rbridge@postel.org > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > --e89a8fb1ef189a5f2e04ba85226d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mingui,

I agree the case you mention could be a use case for MT t= oo.

In my view MT provides tools we can use for multiple purposes - = including gaining scalability as Tissa from Cisco pointed out. :)

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at= 6:05 PM, Mingui Zhang <zhangmingui@huawei.com> wrote:
Multi-Topology (MT) provides physical separation of TRILL traffic. Similar = as the MT in layer3, it can be used to achieve a more load-balanced TRILL c= ampus than ECMP; If MTs are set up intentionally (e.g., disjoint MTs), it c= an be used to realize fast rerouting under failures. But there are some dif= ferences between the layer2 MT and layer3 MT. For example, the use of layer= 2 MT further confines the broadcast domain besides VLAN; The MAC sharing be= tween different topologies is a new topic. The MAC sharing among different = topologies future pertain to the asymmetric use of MTs.

One usage of MT I want to add into the discussion is to use MT to distingui= sh the traffic flow ingressed/egressed by multi-homing members. In this way= , we can get rid of the RPFC issue caused by active-active multi-homing. Fo= r more information, one can read the draft, http://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00.

Thanks,
Mingui

=A0 > -----Original Message-----
=A0 > From: rbridge-bounc= es@postel.org [mailto:rbr= idge-bounces@postel.org] On
=A0 > Behalf Of Radia Perlman
=A0 > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 12:05 PM
=A0 > To: rbridge@postel.org<= br> =A0 > Subject: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpo= se, use,
=A0 > etc?
=A0 >
=A0 > I understand the co= ncept of adding per-topology costs to IS-IS, and
=A0 > having different forwarding tables computed for each topology. =A0 > However, especially in order to imagine how it might (as claimed)=
=A0 > solve various problems, I'd like to have people explain the f= ollowing,
=A0 > or any other questions that people might like to toss into the =A0 > discussion. =A0If it will help, I'll try to make a stab at an= swering my
=A0 > own questions.
=A0 >
=A0 > 1) What problem was multi-topology intended to solve?
=A0 >
=A0 > There are two things I could imagine, or that people have mention= ed to
=A0 > me. =A0One is having different paths for IPv4 and IPv6, presumabl= y
=A0 > because some of the routers only support one or the other, and =A0 > wouldn't be able to know how to forward the other type. =A0(i= f all
=A0 > routers support both, I can't quite imagine why you'd wan= t different
=A0 > paths for IPv4 and IPv6. =A0Can anyone explain that?). =A0The oth= er is to
=A0 > solve some of the problems addressed by MPLS traffic engineering;= to
=A0 > have certain paths reserved for certain types of traffic (e.g., v= oice
=A0 > vs data, or reserved paths for some customers who have negotiated= an
=A0 > SLA).
=A0 >
=A0 > I could imagine different paths being useful in TRILL for
=A0 > jumbo-frames, but the path could be computed based on the "l= ink MTU
=A0 > size" rather than "topology", I'd think, thoug= h one could certainly
=A0 > create a "topology" that is for jumbo-frames, and repor= t infinite cost
=A0 > for links that don't support whatever size "jumbo" = is, in that
=A0 > topology.
=A0 >
=A0 > 2) How do switches/routers know which topology to use when forwar= ding a
=A0 > packet?
=A0 >
=A0 > I'd think the safest thing would be to have a topology name i= n the
=A0 > LSPs (say "topology 2"), and then have a field in the d= ata packet that
=A0 > specifies "topology 2". =A0If there's an indirect w= ay, as in, IPv4 goes
=A0 > on topology 1, and IPv6 goes on topology 2, that is individually<= br> =A0 > configered at each router, then there is the danger that some rou= ter,
=A0 > presumably one that supports both IPv4 and IPv6, forwarding it =A0 > according to a different topology than other routers.
=A0 >
=A0 > If it's indirect (because there's no room for a "top= ology" field in a
=A0 > data packet, then it would be good to at least have some router i= nform
=A0 > the others about how to map a data packet onto a topology. (based= on
=A0 > protocol type? =A0TCP port? packet size?...whatever)
=A0 >
=A0 > For TRILL, there was one proposal (that I understood), which was = to
=A0 > allocate some of the nickname bits to indicate "topology&quo= t;. =A0Although I
=A0 > understand this one, it makes me nervous because various people h= ave
=A0 > been complaining that they see 16 bits for nickname as not enough= ...so
=A0 > if we steal 2 or 3 bits for "topology", that leaves eve= n fewer bits
=A0 > for nickname.
=A0 >
=A0 > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? =A0 >
=A0 > Thanks,
=A0 >
=A0 > Radia
=A0 > _______________________________________________
=A0 > rbridge mailing list
=A0 > rbridge@postel.org
=A0 > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

--e89a8fb1ef189a5f2e04ba85226d-- --===============0283545014== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0283545014==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 5 16:09:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF2821F87D6 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:09:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.414 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.414 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.184, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCcEB-iT3jIB for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DA621F87D3 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2602Yc7018397; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2602DEM018356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so9172759obb.39 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.182.49.66 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.182.49.66; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of vishwas.ietf@gmail.com designates 10.182.49.66 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.182.49.66]) by 10.182.49.66 with SMTP id s2mr9338648obn.16.1330992133022 (num_hops = 1); Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:02:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=uWhhZ54NYTEbIHCT96jIDZ1Kw2Xe+Z43Vn54+W0jfws=; b=BLdkj7vZVfzdXITEho4kTOlokaFvoBwm8ck9RbgbK/uPNDIruGHYGSlZ39iBY7gwN6 Wv/7v/Dj+erCwQz+ofBQ7vpZgedekQWZzbLaRZurksECduUsAKvTLuAEq4dltyyMAqoL ZH2smXPRLz2r+fn1zr1RBMCmwhUAibF9+OvQzyCvzgAAYvkBxok2L7D1xrBACTFHKbnn 7huUnAKHcyDtwTqg5M1mNoLxr2hLqU5T6sesg14vF1dN0IfNI7LkkWx6aAXylOJ7tq7g T/VmKA4rHUUcoieswPvVd8PYP8nBMdA6uzUITPlq9fIKLj4ZdgGawOrHplxmcaw7xIOq JPFA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.49.66 with SMTP id s2mr8152188obn.16.1330992132946; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.165.1 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:02:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:02:12 -0800 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: Jon Hudson X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org, Donald Eastlake , david.black@emc.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0224958487==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0224958487== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044630da487bde04ba87c152 --f46d044630da487bde04ba87c152 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Jon, We seem to have moved to more vendor specific pitches. :-) We can continue the discussion offline from here. Thanks, Vishwas On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Jon Hudson wrote: > inline below > > >> Hi Jon, >> >> >>> 1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's about physical >>> separation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A and path B. >>> >>> I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. This issue becomes >>> that you now have two interfaces on a host from two different networks. >>> FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care of it, and it's all >>> layer 2. However many applications are not designed to listen on two >>> different networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a hypervisor level >>> to solve this for virtual hosts, but it's early. >>> >> I know SAN vendors would want to have separate interfaces altogether on >> servers. However using a CNA and a single Ethernet interface on the host, >> the nirvana we were supposed to achieve with FCoE. >> >> I agree in a lot of cases even if we use FCoE, we would want separate >> networks (after first hop) for different kinds of traffic. In which case we >> would have some parts of the network, that could be common and some that >> would not be. Am I missing the point you are making? >> > > The One Cable idea is a myth. It's nice Marketing. Not even one card with > dual ports will do. Two cards, one cable each is the minimum for most > customers I work with. This is about failure domains, statistics & MTBFs. > This has nothing to do with what SAN vendors want. This has to do with IT > folks who will lose their job if they lose data. If a SAN vendor sells a > dual switch setup connected or air separated, they still just sell 2 > switches. This comes from the paranoia and experience of running > datacenters. The last time I had filesystem damage due to single path > failure I was restoring data for 26hrs. It's not worth it. > > If you are going to be accessing a remote filesystem most customers have > learned that two physically separate paths, are the only way to provide > permanent availability. > > but keep in mind, I work with some very large customers, your local flower > shop might feel very differently. > > >> >>> >>> 2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play well with DCB. The >>> fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their "TRILL-ish" >>> products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. So you can use PFC & >>> ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not saying that it's optimal, >>> but I can personally say it works. >>> >>> I guess what you are talking about is not end-to-end Ethernet forwarding >> with FCoE, but a hop by hop, where the forwarding is done by FCF (and not >> Ethernet switching). >> > >> We are talking about a case where we have Ethernet forwarding as a lot of >> the Enterprises may like. We do not need TRILL to be DCB aware except for >> the case of end-to-end messaging like PFC. >> >> > I am talking about both "sparse" and "dense" style FCoE. TRILL can provide > a multi-hop multi-path layer for which DCB runs on top. PFC can send it's > pause frames and cause upper level protocols to do what they need to and > TRILL just keeps on moving. > > It's like freeways today. Do freeways need to be aware of traffic flow and > congestion to work? No. Would they work much better with that knowledge. > Yes. > > >> 3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you really also >>> want some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of value in >>> that. >>> >>> Correct. >> >> >>> However since there are no working implementations of CN today, it's not >>> yet a problem. >>> >> Ok. >> >> >>> >>> While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there is some. My guess >>> is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess. >>> >>> Do you mean end-to-end FCoE here or do you mean single hop? >> > > I mean both TOR->FC single hop and TOR->Aggregation/Core-> FC dual hop. > > This does not include all the blades servers out there using FCoE > internally. > > The number could be higher, but the truth is no one running FCoE wants > anyone to know they are running FCoE so getting data you can talk about is > very difficult =) > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > >> >> > > > -- > "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." > "Don't worry, be happy" > --f46d044630da487bde04ba87c152 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jon,

We seem to have moved to more vendor specific pitches. :-)
We can continue the discussion offline from here.

Thanks,
V= ishwas

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Jo= n Hudson <jon.= hudson@gmail.com> wrote:
inline below
=A0
Hi Jon,


1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's abou= t physical separation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A = and path B.=A0

I have customers today that do this= today with FCoE. This issue becomes that you now have two interfaces on a = host from two different networks. FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing= driver takes care of it, and it's all layer 2. However many applicatio= ns are not designed to listen on two different networks. There has been tal= k of a vRouter at a hypervisor level to solve this for virtual hosts, but i= t's early.=A0
I know SAN vendors would want to have separate inte= rfaces altogether on servers. However using a CNA and a single Ethernet int= erface on the host, the nirvana we were supposed to achieve with FCoE.=A0
I agree in a lot of cases even if we use FCoE, we would want separate n= etworks (after first hop) for different kinds of traffic. In which case we = would have some parts of the network, that could=A0 be common and some that= would not be. Am I missing the point you are making?

= The One Cable idea is a myth. It's nice Marketing. Not even one card wi= th dual ports will do. Two cards, one cable each is the minimum for most cu= stomers I work with. This is about failure domains, statistics & MTBFs.= This has nothing to do with what SAN vendors want. This has to do with IT = folks who will lose their job if they lose data. If a SAN vendor sells a du= al switch setup connected or air separated, they still just sell 2 switches= . This comes from the paranoia and experience of running datacenters. The l= ast time I had filesystem damage due to single path failure I was restoring= data for 26hrs. It's not worth it.=A0

If you are going to be accessing a remote filesystem mo= st customers have learned that two physically separate paths, are the only = way to provide permanent availability.=A0

but keep= in mind, I work with some very large customers, your local flower shop mig= ht feel very differently.=A0

=A0

2.) While I agree with Donald that TR= ILL should play well with DCB. The fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offe= r FCoE over their "TRILL-ish" products. And they both only suppor= t FCoE with DCB. So you can use PFC & ETS without interacting with TRIL= L at all. Not saying that it's optimal, but I can personally say it wor= ks.=A0

I guess what= you are talking about is not end-to-end Ethernet forwarding with FCoE, but= a hop by hop, where the forwarding is done by FCF (and not Ethernet switch= ing).=A0

We are talking about a case where we have Ethernet forwarding as a= lot of the Enterprises may like. We do not need TRILL to be DCB aware exce= pt for the case of end-to-end messaging like PFC.
=A0
I am talking about both "sparse&quo= t; and "dense" style FCoE. TRILL can provide a multi-hop multi-pa= th layer for which DCB runs on top. PFC can send it's pause frames and = cause upper level protocols to do what they need to and TRILL just keeps on= moving. =A0

It's like freeways today. Do freeways need to be aw= are of traffic flow and congestion to work? No. Would they work much better= with that knowledge. Yes.=A0
=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you r= eally also want some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of va= lue in that.=A0

Correct.
=A0
However since there are no working implementations of CN today, = it's not yet a problem.=A0
Ok.
=A0
<= /div>

While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there = is some. My guess is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess.= =A0

Do you mean end-to-end FCoE= here or do you mean single hop?

= I mean both TOR->FC single hop and TOR->Aggregation/Core-> FC dual= hop.=A0

This does not include all the blades serv= ers out there using FCoE internally.=A0

The number could be higher, but the truth is no one run= ning FCoE wants anyone to know they are running FCoE so getting data you ca= n talk about is very difficult =3D)
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.i= etf@gmail.com> wrote:




--
"Do not= lie. And do not do what you hate."
"Don't worry, be happy= "

--f46d044630da487bde04ba87c152-- --===============0224958487== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0224958487==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 5 16:23:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9625221E805E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:23:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfV-JIgb46zT for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC49021E8036 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q25NpQT0016598; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q25NohUZ016509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so9344557lah.39 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jon.hudson@gmail.com designates 10.112.44.225 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.112.44.225; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jon.hudson@gmail.com designates 10.112.44.225 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jon.hudson@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=jon.hudson@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.112.44.225]) by 10.112.44.225 with SMTP id h1mr10617622lbm.34.1330991442934 (num_hops = 1); Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:50:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=M9amvTvQ6/6VCnMOynpv/Y8kiNw5GE029GwIUqO7bPc=; b=OmdCswrromC+f6iKLtP0gk8pYdobnT5sgoVwmJnCp6Sc8Xd9mbsviEetqi2bKxW53q VoR7kZxWXlnyVkUjmq4pFTKu9Sx6F3ZuPQgmZdAS+R86oVdmujX+zdtAjvwp6pVxknUR MmGZhpAQXlhWCO1ws5aB4e5iI7qZy0doIF0gRmpbEq+hZbGhUu/r/N/nYwIekOg4HwUP d8wkZtzke0BjsVRuezNcYtdNWg56yE5tVteX0IAyTpzds2MVvmXXOKPWQ4csmBL/MPLw ISs+EW9LgJGAwTbePTpyNJRlrdC9+plUk6TwsAeeMnB/MNhMylkW6V4dEu7BGiXUf002 yRrw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.44.225 with SMTP id h1mr8748284lbm.34.1330991442765; Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.107.227 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:50:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201203021325.q22DPxfw018635@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8CFFA@MX14A.corp.emc.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AEC8D056@MX14A.corp.emc.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:50:42 -0800 Message-ID: From: Jon Hudson To: Vishwas Manral X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jon.hudson@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org, Donald Eastlake , david.black@emc.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1996026113==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1996026113== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba308f0c25295a04ba879814 --90e6ba308f0c25295a04ba879814 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 inline below > Hi Jon, > > >> 1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's about physical >> separation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A and path B. >> >> I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. This issue becomes >> that you now have two interfaces on a host from two different networks. >> FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care of it, and it's all >> layer 2. However many applications are not designed to listen on two >> different networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a hypervisor level >> to solve this for virtual hosts, but it's early. >> > I know SAN vendors would want to have separate interfaces altogether on > servers. However using a CNA and a single Ethernet interface on the host, > the nirvana we were supposed to achieve with FCoE. > > I agree in a lot of cases even if we use FCoE, we would want separate > networks (after first hop) for different kinds of traffic. In which case we > would have some parts of the network, that could be common and some that > would not be. Am I missing the point you are making? > The One Cable idea is a myth. It's nice Marketing. Not even one card with dual ports will do. Two cards, one cable each is the minimum for most customers I work with. This is about failure domains, statistics & MTBFs. This has nothing to do with what SAN vendors want. This has to do with IT folks who will lose their job if they lose data. If a SAN vendor sells a dual switch setup connected or air separated, they still just sell 2 switches. This comes from the paranoia and experience of running datacenters. The last time I had filesystem damage due to single path failure I was restoring data for 26hrs. It's not worth it. If you are going to be accessing a remote filesystem most customers have learned that two physically separate paths, are the only way to provide permanent availability. but keep in mind, I work with some very large customers, your local flower shop might feel very differently. > >> >> 2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play well with DCB. The >> fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their "TRILL-ish" >> products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. So you can use PFC & >> ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not saying that it's optimal, >> but I can personally say it works. >> >> I guess what you are talking about is not end-to-end Ethernet forwarding > with FCoE, but a hop by hop, where the forwarding is done by FCF (and not > Ethernet switching). > > We are talking about a case where we have Ethernet forwarding as a lot of > the Enterprises may like. We do not need TRILL to be DCB aware except for > the case of end-to-end messaging like PFC. > > I am talking about both "sparse" and "dense" style FCoE. TRILL can provide a multi-hop multi-path layer for which DCB runs on top. PFC can send it's pause frames and cause upper level protocols to do what they need to and TRILL just keeps on moving. It's like freeways today. Do freeways need to be aware of traffic flow and congestion to work? No. Would they work much better with that knowledge. Yes. > 3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you really also want >> some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of value in that. >> >> Correct. > > >> However since there are no working implementations of CN today, it's not >> yet a problem. >> > Ok. > > >> >> While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there is some. My guess >> is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess. >> >> Do you mean end-to-end FCoE here or do you mean single hop? > I mean both TOR->FC single hop and TOR->Aggregation/Core-> FC dual hop. This does not include all the blades servers out there using FCoE internally. The number could be higher, but the truth is no one running FCoE wants anyone to know they are running FCoE so getting data you can talk about is very difficult =) On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > Hi Jon, > > >> 1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's about physical >> separation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A and path B. >> >> I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. This issue becomes >> that you now have two interfaces on a host from two different networks. >> FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care of it, and it's all >> layer 2. However many applications are not designed to listen on two >> different networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a hypervisor level >> to solve this for virtual hosts, but it's early. >> > I know SAN vendors would want to have separate interfaces altogether on > servers. However using a CNA and a single Ethernet interface on the host, > the nirvana we were supposed to achieve with FCoE. > > I agree in a lot of cases even if we use FCoE, we would want separate > networks (after first hop) for different kinds of traffic. In which case we > would have some parts of the network, that could be common and some that > would not be. Am I missing the point you are making? > > >> >> 2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play well with DCB. The >> fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their "TRILL-ish" >> products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. So you can use PFC & >> ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not saying that it's optimal, >> but I can personally say it works. >> >> I guess what you are talking about is not end-to-end Ethernet forwarding > with FCoE, but a hop by hop, where the forwarding is done by FCF (and not > Ethernet switching). > > We are talking about a case where we have Ethernet forwarding as a lot of > the Enterprises may like. We do not need TRILL to be DCB aware except for > the case of end-to-end messaging like PFC. > > >> 3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you really also >> want some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of value in >> that. >> >> Correct. > > >> However since there are no working implementations of CN today, it's not >> yet a problem. >> > Ok. > > >> >> While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there is some. My guess >> is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess. >> >> Do you mean end-to-end FCoE here or do you mean single hop? > >> -J >> > > Thanks, > Vishwas > > >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: >> >>> Agree with you totally here Donald. >>> >>> -Vishwas >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >>> >>>> Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some >>>> think it isn't. >>>> >>>> If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka >>>> "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the >>>> queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch >>>> protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 >>>> router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Donald >>>> ============================= >>>> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>>> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >>>> d3e3e3@gmail.com >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, wrote: >>>> > That was a timely submission. >>>> > >>>> > My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally >>>> part of DCB, that's >>>> > no longer considered to be the case. Deployments of DCB Ethernet for >>>> FCoE typically do >>>> > not include congestion notification. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > --David >>>> > >>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] >>>> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM >>>> >> To: Black, David >>>> >> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org >>>> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its >>>> purpose, use, etc? >>>> >> >>>> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, wrote: >>>> >> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL >>>> support DCB Ethernet. >>>> >> >>>> >> See >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks, >>>> >> Donald >>>> >> ============================= >>>> >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>>> >> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >>>> >> d3e3e3@gmail.com >>>> >> >>>> >> > Thanks, >>>> >> > --David >>>> >> > >>>> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto: >>>> rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Narten >>>> >> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM >>>> >> >> To: Radia Perlman >>>> >> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org >>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its >>>> purpose, use, etc? >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use >>>> >> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having >>>> >> >> completely disjoint paths. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Thomas >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> >> rbridge mailing list >>>> >> >> rbridge@postel.org >>>> >> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > rbridge mailing list >>>> >> > rbridge@postel.org >>>> >> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." >> "Don't worry, be happy" >> > > -- "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." "Don't worry, be happy" --90e6ba308f0c25295a04ba879814 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
inline below
=A0
Hi Jon,


1.) For SANs it's just about logical separation. It's abou= t physical separation. No electrons bumping into each other between path A = and path B.=A0

I have customers today that do this= today with FCoE. This issue becomes that you now have two interfaces on a = host from two different networks. FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing= driver takes care of it, and it's all layer 2. However many applicatio= ns are not designed to listen on two different networks. There has been tal= k of a vRouter at a hypervisor level to solve this for virtual hosts, but i= t's early.=A0
I know SAN vendors would want to have separate inte= rfaces altogether on servers. However using a CNA and a single Ethernet int= erface on the host, the nirvana we were supposed to achieve with FCoE.=A0
I agree in a lot of cases even if we use FCoE, we would want separate n= etworks (after first hop) for different kinds of traffic. In which case we = would have some parts of the network, that could=A0 be common and some that= would not be. Am I missing the point you are making?

The One Cable idea is a = myth. It's nice Marketing. Not even one card with dual ports will do. T= wo cards, one cable each is the minimum for most customers I work with. Thi= s is about failure domains, statistics & MTBFs. This has nothing to do = with what SAN vendors want. This has to do with IT folks who will lose thei= r job if they lose data. If a SAN vendor sells a dual switch setup connecte= d or air separated, they still just sell 2 switches. This comes from the pa= ranoia and experience of running datacenters. The last time I had filesyste= m damage due to single path failure I was restoring data for 26hrs. It'= s not worth it.=A0

If you are going to be accessing a remote filesystem mo= st customers have learned that two physically separate paths, are the only = way to provide permanent availability.=A0

but keep= in mind, I work with some very large customers, your local flower shop mig= ht feel very differently.=A0

=A0

2.) While I agree with Donald that TRILL should play we= ll with DCB. The fact is that both Cisco and Brocade offer FCoE over their = "TRILL-ish" products. And they both only support FCoE with DCB. S= o you can use PFC & ETS without interacting with TRILL at all. Not sayi= ng that it's optimal, but I can personally say it works.=A0

I guess what you are talking about i= s not end-to-end Ethernet forwarding with FCoE, but a hop by hop, where the= forwarding is done by FCF (and not Ethernet switching).=A0

We are talking about a case where we have Ethernet forwarding as a= lot of the Enterprises may like. We do not need TRILL to be DCB aware exce= pt for the case of end-to-end messaging like PFC.
=A0
I am talking about both "sparse" and "dense"= style FCoE. TRILL can provide a multi-hop multi-path layer for which DCB r= uns on top. PFC can send it's pause frames and cause upper level protoc= ols to do what they need to and TRILL just keeps on moving. =A0

It's like freeways today. Do freeways need to be aw= are of traffic flow and congestion to work? No. Would they work much better= with that knowledge. Yes.=A0
=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then you r= eally also want some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot of va= lue in that.=A0

Correct.
=A0=
However since there are no working implementations of CN today, = it's not yet a problem.=A0
Ok.
=A0
<= /div>

While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there = is some. My guess is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess.= =A0

Do you mean end-to-end FCoE= here or do you mean single hop?

I mean both TOR->FC s= ingle hop and TOR->Aggregation/Core-> FC dual hop.=A0

<= /div>
This does not include all the blades servers out there using FCoE= internally.=A0

The number could be higher, but the truth is no one run= ning FCoE wants anyone to know they are running FCoE so getting data you ca= n talk about is very difficult =3D)
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Vi= shwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Jon,


1.) For SANs it's just about logical separatio= n. It's about physical separation. No electrons bumping into each other= between path A and path B.=A0

I have customers today that do this today with FCoE. Th= is issue becomes that you now have two interfaces on a host from two differ= ent networks. FCoE doesn't care as the multipathing driver takes care o= f it, and it's all layer 2. However many applications are not designed = to listen on two different networks. There has been talk of a vRouter at a = hypervisor level to solve this for virtual hosts, but it's early.=A0
I know SAN vendors would want to have separate inte= rfaces altogether on servers. However using a CNA and a single Ethernet int= erface on the host, the nirvana we were supposed to achieve with FCoE.

I agree in a lot of cases even if we use FCoE, we would want separate netwo= rks (after first hop) for different kinds of traffic. In which case we woul= d have some parts of the network, that could=A0 be common and some that wou= ld not be. Am I missing the point you are making?
=A0
3.) If you are from the camp that believes in CN then= you really also want some interaction between TRILL and CN. There is a lot= of value in that.=A0

Correct.
=A0
H= owever since there are no working implementations of CN today, it's not= yet a problem.=A0
Ok.
=A0

While there is not a lot of FCoE deployed today, there = is some. My guess is less than 100 production sites, but that is a guess.= =A0

Do you mean end-to-end FCoE= here or do you mean single hop?
-J<= /div>

Thanks,
Vishwas
=A0

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:49 P= M, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Agree with you totally here Donald.

-Vishwas


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Do= nald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
Some people think congestion notification (C= N) is important and some
think it isn't.

If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka
"per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch
protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3
router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, =A0<david.black@emc.com> wrote:
> That was a timely submission.
>
> My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally = part of DCB, that's
> no longer considered to be the case. =A0Deployments of DCB Ethernet fo= r FCoE typically do
> not include congestion notification.
>
> Thanks,
> --David
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM
>> To: Black, David
>> Cc: narten@= us.ibm.com; rbr= idge@postel.org
>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its pu= rpose, use, etc?
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, =A0<david.black@emc.com> wrote:
>> > Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRI= LL support DCB Ethernet.
>>
>> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-e= astlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
>> =A0d3e3e3@gm= ail.com
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > --David
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On= Behalf Of Thomas Narten
>> >> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM
>> >> To: Radia Perlman
>> >> Cc: rbridge@postel.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology= ...its purpose, use, etc?
>> >>
>> >> > 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology = be useful?
>> >>
>> >> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployment= s use
>> >> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >> >>
>> >> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in h= aving
>> >> completely disjoint paths.
>> >>
>> >> TRILL, today, does not really do this.
>> >>
>> >> Thomas
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> rbridge mailing list
>> >> r= bridge@postel.org
>> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= /a>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > rbridge mailing list
>> > rbrid= ge@postel.org
>> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= br> >

_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge


_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do not lie. And do not do what you = hate."
"Don't worry, be happy"




--
"Do not= lie. And do not do what you hate."
"Don't worry, be happy= "
--90e6ba308f0c25295a04ba879814-- --===============1996026113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1996026113==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 6 09:04:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07DC21F8493 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:04:41 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <3vyuQfvbpd0t> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Header field occurs more than once: "MIME-Version" occurs 3 times X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3vyuQfvbpd0t for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177A021F84D9 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q26Goskh006245; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 08:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com (e2.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.142]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q26GoVix006220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 08:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from /spool/local by e2.ny.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted for from ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:50:26 -0500 Received: from d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (9.56.224.56) by e2.ny.us.ibm.com (192.168.1.102) with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:50:08 -0500 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442F838C8068 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:50:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q26Go3tR322142 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:50:05 -0500 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q26Gnntw022157 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:49:49 -0700 Received: from d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.18]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q26GnMmi020642 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:49:22 -0700 In-Reply-To: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:48:41 -0500 To: "rbridge@postel.org" From: Santosh Rajagopalan MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by Notes Server on D01WGW55/01/G/IBM(Release 8.5.3|September 15, 2011) at 03/06/2012 11:48:41 AM, Serialize by Router on D03NM127/03/M/IBM(Release 8.5.1FP2|March 17, 2010) at 03/06/2012 09:49:22 MIME-Version: 1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12030616-5112-0000-0000-000005E633C2 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com Cc: Santosh Rajagopalan Subject: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam and draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0646474034==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0646474034== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4DF0109A-75B7-4041-90CF-0736B3A8959D --Apple-Mail-4DF0109A-75B7-4041-90CF-0736B3A8959D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-r= bridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls f= or a revised draft with the best ideas from both. draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc. The major reaso= n for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have = some suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam with= out using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should = be rightly queried from a MIB. I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that would= be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters= has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SN= MP query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to loo= k at the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if the= y have a place here. Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis: 1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (it= does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connecti= vity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting t= he two. One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in th= e echo request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cook= ie could be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The= response could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter.= If the sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external m= echanism then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. Th= is is a feature borrowed from ethernet OAM. 2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (= you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implement= ations usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, wi= th appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "= a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to = enumerate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a = flow would take are good to have features.=20 Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achieve= this: Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing unpruned m= ulticast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel message = to the respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges". Just = like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message with increm= enting ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you what t= he unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress=5Frbridge will paint you a= picture of the different trees. Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "all-egress-rb= ridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address of the mul= ticast group. As you vary the egress=5Frbridge field, this will enumerate a= ll possible pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge= -oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac t= o be all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itsel= f to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requir= ement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternati= ve inner dmacs where needed. Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building= a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the = header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel hea= der). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of th= e flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets g= et dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never use= d for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in= incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into = the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the p= ath. Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying= to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Cons= truct the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, it= s a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This = is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only on the= erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an echo = request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path from = the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, and= repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow y= ou to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination. Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for mu= lticast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, = L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. Howe= ver, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to = be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're = sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl= expiry messages to figure out the path. Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving t= he objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are tech= nically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objec= tive. 3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a p= art of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam n= eeds to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge= channel to achieve this. 4) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ether= net OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/receive del= ays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (a= s described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote d= iscovery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always jus= t login to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters direc= tly, or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionality which i= s better done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-ti= ssa-trill-oam should be taken out. 5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is proba= bly done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "s= how l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB.=20 6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being a= ble to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This= is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a clas= sic MIB walk case. 7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM draf= t, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI. 8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this d= raft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags). best, Sunny Rajagopalan --Apple-Mail-4DF0109A-75B7-4041-90CF-0736B3A8959D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi,
We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft= -ietf-trill-rbridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their= merits, which calls for a revised draft with the best ideas from both.

draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc.  The ma= jor reason for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, an= d I have some suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge= -oam without using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features whic= h should be rightly queried from a MIB.

I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that w= ould be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying coun= ters has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing a= n SNMP query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to= look at the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if= they have a place here.

Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis:

1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough= (it does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify conn= ectivity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecti= ng the two.  One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a coo= kie in the echo request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. = This cookie could be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping mes= sage. The response could then be used to measure round-trip path latency an= d jitter. If the sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some e= xternal mechanism then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and j= itter. This is a feature borrowed from ethernet OAM.

2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing pack= et (you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX imple= mentations usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range= , with appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives y= ou "a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able= to enumerate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular pat= h a flow would take are good to have features.
Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to ach= ieve this:
    1. Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing un= pruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel = message to the respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges= ". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message wit= h incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell yo= u what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress=5Frbridge will pai= nt you a picture of the different trees.
    2. Multicast pruned = tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "all-egress-rbridges" multicast= address in the inner dmac with the mac address of the multicast group. As = you vary the egress=5Frbridge field, this will enumerate all possible prune= d trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac to be all= -egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itself to cla= ssify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requirement in= draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternative inner= dmacs where needed.
    3. Multicast pruned tree discovery for a= particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which= looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tes= ted instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4= headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. Howeve= r, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be= invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out su= ccessive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you'r= e sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received t= tl expiry messages to figure out the path.
    4. Unicast path di= scovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying to ping. Let's= send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Construct the dmac = so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, its a local scope= unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This is a fake mac a= ddress, but that's ok because the network routes only on the erbridge anywa= y. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an echo request message= with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path from the source to t= he destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, and repeat. All rb= ridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow you to enumerate= all possible paths from source to destination.
    5. Unicast pa= th discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for multicast, c= onstruct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, L4 headers= etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to en= sure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid= . Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a = "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry me= ssages to figure out the path.
Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preservi= ng the objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are = technically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain o= bjective.

3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is= a part of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-o= am needs to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbr= idge channel to achieve this.

4) draft-tissa-trill-oam  has a big section on TTM. The equivalent= in Ethernet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/re= ceive delays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements usin= g ping (as described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including= remote discovery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can a= lways just login to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the count= ers directly, or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionalit= y which is better done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in= draft-tissa-trill-oam should be taken out.

5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is p= robably done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing = a "show l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB.

6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, bei= ng able to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding= is). This is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this= is a classic MIB walk case.

7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM = draft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI.

8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of th= is draft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags).

best,
Sunny Rajagopalan

= --Apple-Mail-4DF0109A-75B7-4041-90CF-0736B3A8959D-- --===============0646474034== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0646474034==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 6 11:10:30 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE8221E807C for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:10:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.862 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.862 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.737, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GgwKIDGXAsgX for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55ECD21F8678 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q26Ij3eB028627; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q26IibZJ028586 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so11195146lah.39 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.152.104.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.152.104.43; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of d3e3e3@gmail.com designates 10.152.104.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=d3e3e3@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=d3e3e3@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.152.104.43]) by 10.152.104.43 with SMTP id gb11mr1496873lab.8.1331059476707 (num_hops = 1); Tue, 06 Mar 2012 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KEIdf9Z4U31L4yZFmiU8E28ttv2hz8KsMEKhGj19tCg=; b=t1LKS/NzBUWIv2GnaH+QcgtwBK8GeazgzxgTBFEEDF7j7mn39b530dCVjuyUcHOWnb Qnreq14sRvzzuDO9uaXKX8+oI7g0xD+ODDYQkR7Qi0BxrSCHhyYOm4K0xrTuMKTU1sL8 uk7j2pjncZHpKUczdnd3NmH/9Qr8nIVYu1PC4DFxsDQqUUs+1yzec7qNXvDcK+7kO8f1 NB8NBUkCAgMPu45xX7MXoEA7IyaDYFmOOkZ7WAqOGbx+LgnmMtbtHiH8d3diJPXuXN/T Df2lUMCfQaga6UqnNNbvr0JuwmiMI/3kCrfVJjM0UlKdQB42IXUx8OTj0LWw9Xdsl+OB 7kCw== Received: by 10.152.104.43 with SMTP id gb11mr1233638lab.8.1331059476599; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 10:44:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.29.76 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:44:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F55F0C9.3090200@googlemail.com> References: <4F55F0C9.3090200@googlemail.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:44:16 -0500 Message-ID: To: Mike Shand X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q26IibZJ028586 Cc: rbridge@postel.org, isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-00 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Mike, Thanks for the review and comments. See below. On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 6:11 AM, Mike Shand wrote: > Hi Donald, > > I had a quick skim through this and noticed the following, which you may > wish to address. > > 2. Overloaded and/or Unreachable RBridges para 3 > > TYPO "They can do reasonable well" -> =A0reasonably OK. > 2.1 Reachability para 3 > > "which could be tens of seconds or longer." > > The default value for MaxAge in ISO/IEC 10589 is 20 minutes (1200 seconds= ), > so "tens of seconds" is something of an underestimate, unless TRILL is > proposing running with a MUCH smaller value of MaxAge (and hence > maximumLSPGenerationInterval). I'll change seconds to minutes. I think the existing text was written erroneously thinking about 30 or 40 second holding times. > It is confusing to have the statement that "As a result, RB1 will be aware > of the partition." after the statement that the stale LSPs will hang arou= nd > for a long time, since it sounds as if this very delay is the cause of the > knowledge of the partition. I THINK what you are trying to say is that it > doesn't matter that you don't receive the new LSPs from the far side of t= he > partition, since you WILL receive the updated LSPs from the nodes adjacent > to the failure(s) on the near side of the partition, and this is sufficie= nt > to determine the lack of connectivity. Right. > This may be clearer if you put the "As a result..." sentence before the > "However, LSPs held..." sentence. Yes, it reads much better that way. > Or perhaps I am completely misunderstanding the point you are making. Nope, you have it right. > 2.4.2.1 An Example Network para 2 > > TYPO "has such a neighbor that signal it is willing" -> =A0signals (or has > signalled) OK. > 5.2 Ethernet MTU Values para 1 > > "originatingL1LSPBufferSize is the maximum permitted size of LSPs after t= he > eight byte fixed IS-IS PDU header." > > I don't know where this idea came from but it is not correct. > originatingL1LSPBufferSize refers to the size of the entire LSP starting > with the protocol discriminator. > > I suspect this may be an erroneous deduction from the fortuitous fact that > adding 8 to 1492 gives 1500. Precisely. > In fact the 1492 is a relic of the origins of ISO/IEC 10589 in DECnet Pha= se > V, where before its adoption as a standard, > the frames were encoded using the SNAP SAP, which necessarily limited the > maximum available payload to 1492. > This length was never changed when the encoding was changed, although it > could have been made 1497. OK. I'll correct the definition and adjust the numbers appropriately. Thanks again, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > Mike > > > > > > > On 06/03/2012 04:25, Donald Eastlake wrote: >> >> Participant in the ISIS WG my want to look at this draft, which is >> currently in WGLC in the TRILL WG as it has some IS-IS aspects: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct/ >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> =A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Isis-wg mailing list >> Isis-wg@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > > _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 7 14:30:42 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C92B11E809D for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:30:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cq32-Jss8Ayb for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B779011E8074 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q27M7g0W007443; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q27M71ND007349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:07:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=klebanov@cisco.com; l=3627; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331158030; x=1332367630; h=date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xoZacrqR6241JKhSE0orASwKwQV0RkDrM0/vr20J7os=; b=bZFvYFSTcFcIL5VzMQNrw0i0SaChVr83K9slqR3EJp5IjyMNMG3hmpbs Yicu5NLNtFf0ldgZfjHc8yKcoD/Ay6wvh26AEpnqz1vvHn+FjzYiB6nPV Ioya2JPK8Yb6O6xtUmiAGhEcQYsMvnuGh64n7uJVDpk+tHIr8+hEXVcxz o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAP/aV0+rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABBA7QteoEHggoBAQEDAQEBAQ8BKQExCwUHBgEIDgMEAQEBJygGHwkIAQEEAQ0FIodhBAELmjkBnwuJOYQPgycEiB8zjG+LIYR2gwQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,548,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="34917314" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2012 22:07:01 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q27M71g0007000; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:07:01 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-216.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.184]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:07:01 -0800 Received: from 10.155.71.79 ([10.155.71.79]) by xmb-sjc-216.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.184]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:06:59 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.32.0.111121 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:06:58 -0800 From: David Klebanov To: Donald Eastlake , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? Thread-Index: Acz8rp1FPaYCIStYTUmLghk0DqlOqg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2012 22:07:01.0079 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F1B7E70:01CCFCAE] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: klebanov@cisco.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q27M71ND007349 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Donald, I wanted to comment on your reply here. In the context of TRiLL or any other Ethernet encapsulation technology, how do you deal with intermediate nodes that do not support DCB, but yet run TRiLL. Will you basically "loose" DCB function on that link inside the TRiLL environment? Thanks, David On 3/2/12 12:23 PM, "Donald Eastlake" wrote: > Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some > think it isn't. > = > If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka > "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the > queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch > protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 > router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. > = > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA > =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > = > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, wrote: >> That was a timely submission. >> = >> My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally pa= rt of >> DCB, that's >> no longer considered to be the case. =A0Deployments of DCB Ethernet for = FCoE >> typically do >> not include congestion notification. >> = >> Thanks, >> --David >> = >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM >>> To: Black, David >>> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org >>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, >>> use, etc? >>> = >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, =A0 wrote: >>>> Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL suppor= t DCB >>>> Ethernet. >>> = >>> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ >>> = >>> Thanks, >>> Donald >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA >>> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com >>> = >>>> Thanks, >>>> --David >>>> = >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] = On >>>>> Behalf Of Thomas Narten >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM >>>>> To: Radia Perlman >>>>> Cc: rbridge@postel.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpo= se, >>>>> use, etc? >>>>> = >>>>>> 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? >>>>> = >>>>> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use >>>>> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >>>>> = >>>>> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having >>>>> completely disjoint paths. >>>>> = >>>>> TRILL, today, does not really do this. >>>>> = >>>>> Thomas >>>>> = >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> rbridge mailing list >>>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> = >>>> = >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> = > = > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 7 16:05:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B03D11E809A for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:05:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.747, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B+GiNTNLlWJM for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC57211E808C for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q27NrFHs001413; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q27NqUon001294 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so13934733lah.39 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:52:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=N+eY7mvT7FtLwtizk9uQj44JF0kHnCBkooSYMc1iLVw=; b=PkBNtSWSN1gysIKTDf1Ldsxc7uZrpQ4lv1f0xVD8fWSElAz9ngicOhIvgRwNjhXoX9 xs9aBEEOcdtCnhacUMc4I+55/4xP6R/r6sKfWSV5OfPfly7O997xCqgw6frfUPFB/iSC o5Zb90i5YQKAHlDeTR+l0txG8NZBEF95KDQlt1w+O6xL6xwKb60pHGLSlM6fvDDLOkV7 Rj4rc+r1PFt9ozjliQCMi0ZC1Fa3U8eR0BjESupKntmUgYDMXJtoMTp1kAK+N6/B/jE4 onao6L5498ZXDwo7LW5EbI744UBcjCWy9F04PiHHIAqr3aF8Z+4kDbidbrMJbPXp+viU IBgw== Received: by 10.152.147.1 with SMTP id tg1mr2918543lab.22.1331164349257; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:52:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.29.76 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:52:08 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:52:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q27NqUon001294 Subject: [rbridge] Proposed addition to the clear correct draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi, To bring draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct, currently in WG Last Call, more closely in alignment with draft-eastlake-isis-rfc6326bis, I propose to add to the clear-correct draft a small new Section 3.3 as follows: 3.3 IP Address Based Multicast Pruning The TRILL base protocol specification [RFC6325] provides for and recommends the pruning of multi-destination frame distribution trees based on the location of IP multicast routers and listeners; however, multicast listening is identified by derived MAC adddresses as communicated in the Group MAC Address sub-TLV [RFC6326bis]. TRILL Switches MAY communicate multicast listeners and prune distribution trees based on the actual IPv4 or IPv6 addresses involved. Additional Group Address sub-TLVs are provided in [RFC6326bis] to carry this information. A TRILL Switch that is only capable of pruning based on derived MAC address SHOULD calculate and use such derived MAC addresses from multicast listener IPv4/IPv6 address information it receives. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 7 16:24:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D78211E80A1 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:24:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.747, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cVhA8oqfZ+oP for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFBA21F84B8 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q27NlF8a000097; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q27NklKx000023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so13927655lah.39 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:46:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YmRCM0gxz3ryCjx3WheNhyD4T2QJ2sCM960155Blr8Y=; b=Oojvkihv2XnMIh1O2pP1eLZ0k8fugrcSXSoRI/ZwxC8BA8bgdjzFT3bjZTVP9/MnJg hBjPmjpKBUoGoJ8LP9bzIYbnD6dENvP5Lp0mMJ6n+5Euc2GZHHQ3pq6dq5zhkFCH061T fVj/dBloOlyvB9a6oJOQPfGHX314G4PrVb4WW2QEQQRjtE3bObmsE0htGXUinDjpq9Wk KYiVIj/2EPJr5vG1scKmhpEp5pxO9GsorMZJSC/fAxomxjiMmkngw/qUJXTrrfx6sa9C muw+4avIOy1KIIALZ1P89qJzZuQHGgKKK8tDVoog0uPNTrtLCaMLNOzkT7KydRBCuqnd Eu8w== Received: by 10.112.23.135 with SMTP id m7mr345477lbf.46.1331164006292; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:46:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.29.76 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:46:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:46:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: David Klebanov X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q27NklKx000023 Cc: rbridge@postel.org, david.black@emc.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi David, On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:06 PM, David Klebanov wrote: > Hi Donald, > > I wanted to comment on your reply here. In the context of TRiLL or any ot= her > Ethernet encapsulation technology, how do you deal with intermediate nodes > that do not support DCB, but yet run TRiLL. Will you basically "loose" DCB > function on that link inside the TRiLL environment? Short answer: Yes -- but this has nothing to do with TRILL and everything to do with having nodes that do not support DCB. Long answer: The goal of the DCB facilities we are talking about is to eliminate loss due to queue overflow. To do that over a path for some particular type of traffic (usually classified by priority) every queue along that path (usually queues just exist at output ports) must support the facility. So any device with more than two ports where you could have multiple streams converging on one output port or even a device with only two ports if they could be different speed, must support the facility or you have lost the guarantees. And you also have to meet various engineering criterion for bandwidth-delay-buffering. I don't see that it has anything particular to do with "TRILL" or "encapsulation". If any device along the path has a queue that could overflow and it doesn't implement the flow control facilities you are counting on, then you can't depend on not losing data in that queue. If a path is appropriately engineered and the devices along it are some mix of TRILL switches and 802.1 bridges and they all implement, for example, PFC and ETS and have those enabled for priority-x frames, you should never lose a priority-x frame along that path due to queue overflow. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > Thanks, > David > > > On 3/2/12 12:23 PM, "Donald Eastlake" wrote: > >> Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some >> think it isn't. >> >> If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka >> "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the >> queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch >> protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 >> router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA >> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, =A0 wrote: >>> That was a timely submission. >>> >>> My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally p= art of >>> DCB, that's >>> no longer considered to be the case. =A0Deployments of DCB Ethernet for= FCoE >>> typically do >>> not include congestion notification. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> --David >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM >>>> To: Black, David >>>> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org >>>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpos= e, >>>> use, etc? >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, =A0 wrote: >>>>> Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL suppo= rt DCB >>>>> Ethernet. >>>> >>>> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Donald >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>>> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA >>>> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com >>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> --David >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org]= On >>>>>> Behalf Of Thomas Narten >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM >>>>>> To: Radia Perlman >>>>>> Cc: rbridge@postel.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purp= ose, >>>>>> use, etc? >>>>>> >>>>>>> 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? >>>>>> >>>>>> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use >>>>>> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having >>>>>> completely disjoint paths. >>>>>> >>>>>> TRILL, today, does not really do this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thomas >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> rbridge mailing list >>>>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> rbridge mailing list >>>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 7 16:40:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF9311E8085 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:40:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MjY-FSt+FVD6 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5210711E8080 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q280MjhX008421; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f52.google.com (mail-ee0-f52.google.com [74.125.83.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q280MCXx008315 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by eekd4 with SMTP id d4so3057011eek.39 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:22:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7t23eR+OQSv1wsz80nqnQKehYeSG0RPAVyKbAwnhGjg=; b=USfG59/H0JTnkwITfuZQ9rd1NWtSdyPu8/8yABErub7cvxW9grbrFkjf8Wg1GqZuDb xzxj55+FB4e4B2xnUtHcltejO3Il/USN3DQJ0CsGpKT5wew8WR4lu8AvFGoJgE8CpiNi oKJlpH81i4rBBota/vzJYwlERiVZqdn9SRQyJ6Klmjjjt9defrjc9kBhlHGGvfzzyPP1 p+dWPNB80zh6JLdGnGgxOKeoCiNGJrzSdGiFUOS2Lf5p1dmIQjUao2cMxVRE8lWJbhGx Dmfrt9LxpIuC+E8VsCEZ59v8oCYms9/cKOR+BVTehGwB0RZ8I5daeHjSrAcJ2i194hQJ XUmg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.201.67 with SMTP id a43mr1720641eeo.110.1331166131904; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.22.75 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:22:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:22:11 -0800 Message-ID: From: Radia Perlman To: David Klebanov X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: radiaperlman@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q280MCXx008315 Cc: Donald Eastlake , rbridge@postel.org, david.black@emc.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpose, use, etc? X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org That's what I'd assume....that you'd lose DCB functionality on links in which the switches don't do DCB. So, if a link doesn't do pause/resume (priority based flow control), then packets might experience congestion loss on that link. And the other thing in DCB...congestion notification.... the switch that doesn't support it wouldn't inform the source. I like that feature of DCB...that it can be phased in...not every switch needs to support it. Radia On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:06 PM, David Klebanov wrote: > Hi Donald, > > I wanted to comment on your reply here. In the context of TRiLL or any ot= her > Ethernet encapsulation technology, how do you deal with intermediate nodes > that do not support DCB, but yet run TRiLL. Will you basically "loose" DCB > function on that link inside the TRiLL environment? > > Thanks, > David > > > On 3/2/12 12:23 PM, "Donald Eastlake" wrote: > >> Some people think congestion notification (CN) is important and some >> think it isn't. >> >> If you are just talking about Priority Based Flow control (PFC, aka >> "per priority pause") or just PFC and ETS, they are down in the >> queueing control at ports and orthogonal to what sort of switch >> protocol you are running above the ports. Could be a bridge, a layer 3 >> router, an RBridge, or whatever. PFC and ETS are pretty much the same. >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA >> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:48 PM, =A0 wrote: >>> That was a timely submission. >>> >>> My understanding is that while congestion notification was originally p= art of >>> DCB, that's >>> no longer considered to be the case. =A0Deployments of DCB Ethernet for= FCoE >>> typically do >>> not include congestion notification. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> --David >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:39 PM >>>> To: Black, David >>>> Cc: narten@us.ibm.com; rbridge@postel.org >>>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purpos= e, >>>> use, etc? >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:21 PM, =A0 wrote: >>>>> Note that using FCoE over TRILL essentially requires that TRILL suppo= rt DCB >>>>> Ethernet. >>>> >>>> See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-trill-rbridge-dcb/ >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Donald >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>>> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA >>>> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com >>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> --David >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org]= On >>>>>> Behalf Of Thomas Narten >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 8:26 AM >>>>>> To: Radia Perlman >>>>>> Cc: rbridge@postel.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Can someone explain Multi-Topology...its purp= ose, >>>>>> use, etc? >>>>>> >>>>>>> 3) Specifically for TRILL, why would multi-topology be useful? >>>>>> >>>>>> Disjoint multipathing for FCoE. Today, many FC deployments use >>>>>> physically replicated SANs. Twice the cabling/cost/etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> But, there is real value in terms of fault isolation in having >>>>>> completely disjoint paths. >>>>>> >>>>>> TRILL, today, does not really do this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thomas >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> rbridge mailing list >>>>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> rbridge mailing list >>>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 8 09:18:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D81E421F865F for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:18:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.859 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.859 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.138, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RiMqaJl5JoPW for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD8B21F8650 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q28Gsm7C013974; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q28GsHiB013938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:54:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=62352; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331225666; x=1332435266; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to; bh=upjSogRKXoxSvBcL/qUuZWbsRB9y/W9U2AoUoobp9wM=; b=h4x4LwLwXotGwNQeMZh6cpAG8bbBop1l/e9OzBXXQaVt/sjC825TrZlS LaoIcZpPbBfDIZqcwDcmdN0QNGKBe+WC3B+dLgyUNHv5ugVEX5gS84QeR JeBcQ1r0WvgcKJbNmuucWrW8JKfd2CQMhcJ2EY7bhW9/9s4Bpe7xrdgWn 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgYFAALkWE+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbAA5CoJFgnCmaAGIAX6BB4IKAQEBBAEBAQ8BBwEBBwQGAz4bAgEIEQQBAQsGBgEJAQYBAgICAQElHwkIAQEEEwgah2cBC5tEAYxnkjKKHwQBgyQBgg8zYwSIUp0LgwSBMwEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,552,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="35041361" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Mar 2012 16:54:17 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q28GsHpA019402 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 16:54:17 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:54:17 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:54:15 -0800 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5B5D721@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam Thread-Index: Acz7vKgNqy0cLuO4RmmVtMBLI35btABi64WA References: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Mar 2012 16:54:17.0197 (UTC) FILETIME=[196011D0:01CCFD4C] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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--===============0970531655== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0970531655==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 8 09:56:26 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5779D21F86B1 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:56:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.744, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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Violators will be prosecuted; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:43:20 -0700 Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by d03dlp01.boulder.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E5BC40007 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:43:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q28HhAlt141414 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:43:13 -0700 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q28Hh9xm029062 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:43:10 -0700 Received: from d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.18]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q28Hh0cf028499 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 10:43:00 -0700 X-KeepSent: 717BEAAE:B04DF3B2-872579BB:00608789; type=4; name=$KeepSent To: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: From: Santosh Rajagopalan Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:43:00 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM127/03/M/IBM(Release 8.5.1FP2|March 17, 2010) at 03/08/2012 10:42:59 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12030817-1780-0000-0000-000003D17D4D X-IBM-ISS-SpamDetectors: X-IBM-ISS-DetailInfo: BY=3.00000256; HX=3.00000185; KW=3.00000007; PH=3.00000001; SC=3.00000001; SDB=6.00120280; UDB=6.00029083; UTC=2012-03-08 17:43:21 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com Subject: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0861243034==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0861243034== Content-type: multipart/alternative; Boundary="0__=08BBF328DFF301198f9e8a93df938690918c08BBF328DFF30119" Content-Disposition: inline --0__=08BBF328DFF301198f9e8a93df938690918c08BBF328DFF30119 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL may n= ot be strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during networ= k transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modificatio= n of the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases. The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into = the RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link,= specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a= multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept packets from X along (outer_smac, port)". Consider this network: F--A--B--C--o--D All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D ar= e connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseudon= ode "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (= the choice of root is unimportant here). The resulting tree looks like: F--A--B--C--o--D Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet= network. So the network looks like this: ________ | | F--A--B--C--o--D Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except = the B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out fro= m F will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another co= py into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D. However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on t= heir LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet = done so. This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be= part of the tree. So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A in= to the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on = this tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted= . D is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also pas= ses. However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF che= ck still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the pa= cket along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one mor= e packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D = in the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to the= CE network is ok for receiving packets from A. So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSP= s and program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irreleva= nt here because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native= CE frames. In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because t= he rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port, smac) will pass for packets from both A and C. The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you= replace the current RPF check which looks like this: {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port} with a modified check which looks like this: {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac} This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they wer= e sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently separate adjacency and RPF checks. Thoughts? -- Sunny Rajagopalan= --0__=08BBF328DFF301198f9e8a93df938690918c08BBF328DFF30119 Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL ma= y not be strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during = network transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a mod= ification of the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases.

The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into = the RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). = In a p2p link, specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector= . However, in a multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencie= s" overlaid on the physical link. To identify one of them, you nee= d to specify both the outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check shoul= d actually be "accept packets from X along (outer_smac, port)"= ;.

Consider this network:

F--A--B--C--o--D
All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D ar= e connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseud= onode "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multide= stination tree (the choice of root is unimportant here).
The resulting tree looks like:

F--A--B--C--o--D

Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet= network. So the network looks like this:
________
| |
F--A--B--C--o--D

Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except = the B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out= from F will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and= another copy into the CE network, from where it will be received by C = and D.

However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on t= heir LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not= yet done so.
This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be= part of the tree.

So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A in= to the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets = on this tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets = accepted. D is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency ch= eck also passes.

However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF che= ck still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the= packet along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives= one more packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adja= cent to D in the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D'= s link to the CE network is ok for receiving packets from A.

So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSP= s and program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrele= vant here because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not n= ative CE frames.

In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because t= he rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on = (port, smac) will pass for packets from both A and C.

The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you= replace the current RPF check which looks like this:
{tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port}

with a modified check which looks like this:

{tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac}

This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they wer= e sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently= separate adjacency and RPF checks.

Thoughts?
--
Sunny Rajagopalan
= --0__=08BBF328DFF301198f9e8a93df938690918c08BBF328DFF30119-- --===============0861243034== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0861243034==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 8 21:47:42 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD3621F84DF for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:47:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.861 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.861 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.738, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6HV+cRt-idPC for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9419B21F84A7 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q295S3CG016467; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f180.google.com (mail-lb0-f180.google.com [209.85.217.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q295RdHD016431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by lbon10 with SMTP id n10so409144lbo.39 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 21:27:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NaR/r3mJDI/EVKUBgN/RjuMVdSG2OjZyl9IIWkya8yA=; b=qZjOGYcPFwNMnYiuDWdXY5rctP3a5H4IGCZbQxdfSfzek1e0mMBM9yBNvx6YIrM4cc sEX3b9fkCSGpP2b3YNCa6DRNe36T+H6NHh2Ydo8eS+ADgbbYJaAKldllnXkr9h6YHc3X RO5t3NoZaDrvHsoJE2G3dZ6R2cbKi0EE2HOJETJYHI92qsZwxma2swthqWtJDL6pMvKd iUcUENQNvbiGjuzND/W5sYs/JQDDZEbTuN8shuHDtkrMpoq6LYPkRhvX57tALdr311Uj nbZOPYHTuFx7Qp/a45UlP5tvDcPFARoMTtxtzrqVioCKXHZ1Vw/9LVpReMQZ+1WNkrrV S1IA== Received: by 10.152.104.43 with SMTP id gb11mr645252lab.8.1331270858261; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 21:27:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.13.227 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:27:18 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 00:27:18 -0500 Message-ID: To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q295RdHD016431 Subject: [rbridge] RFC 6326bis X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi, What with the various developments going on in TRILL, there is a draft revision of RFC 6326, TRILL Use of IS-IS. Since RFC 6326 went through the ISIS WG I anticipate that this draft will also follow that route. A pointer to the current version is here https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-isis-rfc6326bis/ Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 9 05:07:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74C321F8657 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:07:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, MANGLED_DIET=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id epyO2V-F2XUJ for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1980F21F8606 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q29CqKS1019946; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 04:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f52.google.com (mail-pw0-f52.google.com [209.85.160.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q29Cptgw019923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 04:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by pbcuo15 with SMTP id uo15so3430416pbc.39 for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 04:51:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=bfVWLbDon9r0OYUTK9REPKnDA739xgN8J/ryQcApvk4=; b=Z++7GwCbfd9VkmiW7TQjd5XjJw57IIJhvS1Na8X/zvAag4Xcs/SS++wBsNc43J5j/F uAL4d8x9HQsHD0vKbLboVNy0OCGDLNtKBFlelE9ebpcBv0b1PmIvJzwpos8Dk9v+8219 V+Awt9F2rdlUWNxuGwRksPyJAtt20bLZ6aswTCwOTC9TyH1IDHD8MsOKxi1EOU2RYOot gv2Q+HOBI3ta0uFRdM0WxVj1/yI4GUAY2bGyB5bCK2t0DNJZaCRI+oyJzuujFEyqi7w2 zUhcJUTKZxbLsmbSM7tl10jyk0C9HYtVV2AfUKgq2bTyAhqx3smNZhEy1mF1CfMy4nYf LnXA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.125.196 with SMTP id ms4mr4068041pbb.131.1331297515558; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 04:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.154.10 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 04:51:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 04:51:55 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: fV6HHg0rFHMgpiY1VdM47DkAM8Y Message-ID: From: Anoop Ghanwani To: Santosh Rajagopalan X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ghanwani@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org The tree adjacency check already accounts for this. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.6.2.5 >> The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nickname on the port where the frame was received. >> This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check. Anoop On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan wrote: > It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL may not be > strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during network > transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modification of > the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases. > > The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into the > RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link, > specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a > multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the > physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the > outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept > packets from X along (outer_smac, port)". > > Consider this network: > > F--A--B--C--o--D > All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D are > connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseudonode > "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (the > choice of root is unimportant here). > The resulting tree looks like: > > F--A--B--C--o--D > > Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet > network. So the network looks like this: > ________ > | | > F--A--B--C--o--D > > Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except the > B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out from F > will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another copy > into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D. > > However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on their > LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet done > so. > This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be part > of the tree. > > So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A into > the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on this > tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted. D > is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also passes. > > However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF check > still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the packet > along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one more > packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D in > the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to the CE > network is ok for receiving packets from A. > > So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSPs and > program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevant here > because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native CE > frames. > > In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because the > rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port, smac) > will pass for packets from both A and C. > > The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you > replace the current RPF check which looks like this: > {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port} > > with a modified check which looks like this: > > {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac} > > This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they were > sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently > separate adjacency and RPF checks. > > Thoughts? > -- > Sunny Rajagopalan > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 9 07:04:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5235D21F85E6 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:04:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.57 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.57 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.429, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B-y251JaoMXa for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41E621F85D9 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q29Ek0ue007004; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q29Eilkk006885 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so3001603lah.39 for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 06:44:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PTJBTrpR+LDCaVtklBH6hjUM17JHeSCxZEx6N8Kk36A=; b=OYHUaveCQhLl/KJd0fcaAF1aGaZn+roddUCdO/WJEmUY3MxMMNiZNonlfPg0TdiEUc 6LZY5ANkuq990/+y1AleA6JNrEDv7VLgadK/FmozoQrJedmP3F9VRFz6dQU80bKLeMyK syl0y+GlOa+7aakKd2sGSueODrwENBPcYOf8etM+tHBQl8q2yVWarPCi836EiWzUJ+4r DvU40sO+8Yioj/2p86NdRcoIHnHp3JkAynNamSjgDhlJDfgwHPQpmRnj6vo6aZGLummT CQ6R7337z4KWoDZmCzcSS1GgpvcIwHrqRyAvOoKtBbBVeGA3jL4AjC973rgTELVuJskf nyLA== Received: by 10.152.112.100 with SMTP id ip4mr1877062lab.1.1331304286633; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 06:44:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.13.227 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:44:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:44:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: Anoop Ghanwani X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q29Eilkk006885 Cc: rbridge@postel.org, Santosh Rajagopalan Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Anoop, On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Anoop Ghanwani wrot= e: > The tree adjacency check already accounts for this. > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.6.2.5 > >>> > =A0 The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a > =A0 tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nickname > =A0 on the port where the frame was received. >>> > > This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check. Ahhh, but this is not quite a strong as what Santosh is suggesting. The subtle weakness is that "adjacency" has no directionality. RFC 6325 currently specifies this part of the RPFC as two separate checks: 1. Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, arrival port) an allowed triplet according to the current topology and tree? 2. Is ( tree, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed triplet according to the current topology and tree? What Santosh is suggesting, which would be just a little stronger and arguably simpler, is equivalent to replacing this with one test: -- Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed quadruplet? This is stronger because, on a multi-access link, one Outer.MacSA may only be allowed on frames from the ingress and other Outer.MacSA may only only be allowed on frames ingressed elsewhere. I think some existing silicon may already use this combined RPFC test... Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > Anoop > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan > wrote: >> It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL may no= t be >> strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during network >> transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modification= of >> the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases. >> >> The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into t= he >> RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link, >> specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a >> multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the >> physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the >> outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept >> packets from X along (outer_smac, port)". >> >> Consider this network: >> >> F--A--B--C--o--D >> All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D are >> connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseudono= de >> "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (t= he >> choice of root is unimportant here). >> The resulting tree looks like: >> >> F--A--B--C--o--D >> >> Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet >> network. So the network looks like this: >> ________ >> | | >> F--A--B--C--o--D >> >> Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except t= he >> B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out from= F >> will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another copy >> into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D. >> >> However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on th= eir >> LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet d= one >> so. >> This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be = part >> of the tree. >> >> So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A into >> the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on t= his >> tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted.= D >> is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also pass= es. >> >> However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF check >> still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the pac= ket >> along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one more >> packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D in >> the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to the = CE >> network is ok for receiving packets from A. >> >> So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSPs= and >> program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevant he= re >> because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native CE >> frames. >> >> In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because the >> rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port, s= mac) >> will pass for packets from both A and C. >> >> The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you >> replace the current RPF check which looks like this: >> {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port} >> >> with a modified check which looks like this: >> >> {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac} >> >> This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they were >> sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently >> separate adjacency and RPF checks. >> >> Thoughts? >> -- >> Sunny Rajagopalan >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 9 08:20:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D00E21F86C5 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:20:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wYcd9Hb1UegO for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC7A21F8697 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q29Fw26N018904; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f180.google.com (mail-ey0-f180.google.com [209.85.215.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q29FvUDf018855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by eaal12 with SMTP id l12so614285eaa.39 for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 07:57:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SU6bT6Q32PJpVaI/dwxEoeeHOaIqrEyeTYWEbKM7cJE=; b=tDnrOonRHkaxTixNBPSHXQOuBy/CNYW6AgwYk8d3PyC4YHgS5KVCHkVm2UjaPahU8p i05aFj39QbpHIlgVO9r1GRy57e/AS8Xi/BJIPZUc/cze8RGlIc5KhU7wGwE23Q68pc5E DkdFNxIegHoA1SJWAr/ZpctJ85Dixe9062vzNd80NPjNFKT5J5/SOYowwOth5C5/OnjT CGnB9beoWmMIoroVVCyR3bgz/fvlOLTYglR1PelENjPNdNKrujb1s/I6XmqD6LWL9wRe v9nutRMChDnqKDwbXB6SFGwP8GgqSlimJsMdY8gWbLHRAZvM4WKXtM14nTgYezFxwRXR 0BqA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.136.10 with SMTP id v10mr510219eei.76.1331308649120; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 07:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.98.77 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:57:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:57:29 -0800 Message-ID: From: Radia Perlman To: Donald Eastlake X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: radiaperlman@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q29FvUDf018855 Cc: rbridge@postel.org, Anoop Ghanwani , Santosh Rajagopalan Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Ah. Yes, thank you for that explanation, Donald. Santosh is indeed correct, and it also makes the spec easier to read, which is an additional plus. Radia On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: > Hi Anoop, > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Anoop Ghanwani wr= ote: >> The tree adjacency check already accounts for this. >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.6.2.5 >> >>>> >> =A0 The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a >> =A0 tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nickname >> =A0 on the port where the frame was received. >>>> >> >> This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check. > > Ahhh, but this is not quite a strong as what Santosh is suggesting. > The subtle weakness is that "adjacency" has no directionality. > > RFC 6325 currently specifies this part of the RPFC as two separate checks: > =A01. Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, arrival port) an allowed triplet according > to the current topology and tree? > =A02. Is ( tree, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed triplet according to > the current topology and tree? > > What Santosh is suggesting, which would be just a little stronger and > arguably simpler, is equivalent to replacing this with one test: > =A0-- Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed quadrupl= et? > > This is stronger because, on a multi-access link, one Outer.MacSA may > only be allowed on frames from the ingress and other Outer.MacSA may > only only be allowed on frames ingressed elsewhere. > > I think some existing silicon may already use this combined RPFC test... > > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA > =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > >> Anoop >> >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan >> wrote: >>> It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL may n= ot be >>> strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during network >>> transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modificatio= n of >>> the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases. >>> >>> The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into = the >>> RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link, >>> specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a >>> multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the >>> physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the >>> outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept >>> packets from X along (outer_smac, port)". >>> >>> Consider this network: >>> >>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>> All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D are >>> connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseudon= ode >>> "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (= the >>> choice of root is unimportant here). >>> The resulting tree looks like: >>> >>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>> >>> Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet >>> network. So the network looks like this: >>> ________ >>> | | >>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>> >>> Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except = the >>> B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out fro= m F >>> will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another co= py >>> into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D. >>> >>> However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on t= heir >>> LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet = done >>> so. >>> This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be= part >>> of the tree. >>> >>> So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A in= to >>> the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on = this >>> tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted= . D >>> is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also pas= ses. >>> >>> However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF che= ck >>> still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the pa= cket >>> along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one more >>> packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D = in >>> the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to the= CE >>> network is ok for receiving packets from A. >>> >>> So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSP= s and >>> program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevant h= ere >>> because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native CE >>> frames. >>> >>> In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because t= he >>> rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port, = smac) >>> will pass for packets from both A and C. >>> >>> The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you >>> replace the current RPF check which looks like this: >>> {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port} >>> >>> with a modified check which looks like this: >>> >>> {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac} >>> >>> This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they were >>> sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently >>> separate adjacency and RPF checks. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> -- >>> Sunny Rajagopalan >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 9 14:19:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509BA21E8088 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:19:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.198, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FCsFdRbxXQob for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5285A21E805F for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q29LteUS019249; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gx0-f180.google.com (mail-gx0-f180.google.com [209.85.161.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q29LtIo9019196 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by gglu1 with SMTP id u1so1738147ggl.39 for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 13:55:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=NZdykYT2svMcr89WhyGU6N9Rv3XIRn7nbl7cje/2bjg=; b=Ak84LkH6Z0a5YFZgdaeXDPIQRLSx0l2C4Fs4VFLdULRn69EgohF1P76Dk7D+hgYwIX 5OHRbPsGUC6jU1MSbTKV6uSUPP5Xq3jGMQjIr/E2WJj2FlSzcrDdRPJJUOW+rKLbs/10 t/SpsQm0sZhuCsRWbs1tNv7x0VlLgXtd57JlTOL6tE6Pc82DrNaELw6rWn3dGX740w+4 swN5DmxPcNKClwXlg0wSuGyKf0QrYuZ4r1h7Zn1V2lHQLSfEmatGnXSp4BQuY3gojTVr pMQtJjuFNXMePaqfZ8Y9Lq2wyNBpIpz/QiyhlkKP2fZ9it1j6mhxGwUgli+2+3seV6FB mYMA== Received: by 10.182.52.104 with SMTP id s8mr1465496obo.59.1331330117810; Fri, 09 Mar 2012 13:55:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.15] (c-98-234-218-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [98.234.218.27]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x9sm3352692oea.7.2012.03.09.13.55.14 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 09 Mar 2012 13:55:16 -0800 (PST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <1C4D6949-3235-4BB0-B148-C88791DD5CC0@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B176) From: Jon Hudson Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:55:11 -0800 To: Radia Perlman , SantoshRajagopalan X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jon.hudson@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q29LtIo9019196 Cc: Donald Eastlake , "rbridge@postel.org" , Anoop Ghanwani Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org I agree! Both stronger & easier to read/understand. Very nice Santosh! On Mar 9, 2012, at 7:57 AM, Radia Perlman wrote: > Ah. Yes, thank you for that explanation, Donald. Santosh is indeed > correct, and it also makes the spec easier to read, which is an > additional plus. > > Radia > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >> Hi Anoop, >> >> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Anoop Ghanwani wrote: >>> The tree adjacency check already accounts for this. >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.6.2.5 >>> >>>>> >>> The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a >>> tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nickname >>> on the port where the frame was received. >>>>> >>> >>> This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check. >> >> Ahhh, but this is not quite a strong as what Santosh is suggesting. >> The subtle weakness is that "adjacency" has no directionality. >> >> RFC 6325 currently specifies this part of the RPFC as two separate checks: >> 1. Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, arrival port) an allowed triplet according >> to the current topology and tree? >> 2. Is ( tree, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed triplet according to >> the current topology and tree? >> >> What Santosh is suggesting, which would be just a little stronger and >> arguably simpler, is equivalent to replacing this with one test: >> -- Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed quadruplet? >> >> This is stronger because, on a multi-access link, one Outer.MacSA may >> only be allowed on frames from the ingress and other Outer.MacSA may >> only only be allowed on frames ingressed elsewhere. >> >> I think some existing silicon may already use this combined RPFC test... >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> ============================= >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >> d3e3e3@gmail.com >> >>> Anoop >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan >>> wrote: >>>> It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL may not be >>>> strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during network >>>> transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modification of >>>> the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases. >>>> >>>> The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into the >>>> RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link, >>>> specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a >>>> multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the >>>> physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the >>>> outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept >>>> packets from X along (outer_smac, port)". >>>> >>>> Consider this network: >>>> >>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>> All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D are >>>> connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseudonode >>>> "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (the >>>> choice of root is unimportant here). >>>> The resulting tree looks like: >>>> >>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>> >>>> Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet >>>> network. So the network looks like this: >>>> ________ >>>> | | >>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>> >>>> Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except the >>>> B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out from F >>>> will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another copy >>>> into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D. >>>> >>>> However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on their >>>> LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet done >>>> so. >>>> This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be part >>>> of the tree. >>>> >>>> So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A into >>>> the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on this >>>> tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted. D >>>> is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also passes. >>>> >>>> However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF check >>>> still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the packet >>>> along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one more >>>> packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D in >>>> the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to the CE >>>> network is ok for receiving packets from A. >>>> >>>> So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSPs and >>>> program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevant here >>>> because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native CE >>>> frames. >>>> >>>> In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because the >>>> rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port, smac) >>>> will pass for packets from both A and C. >>>> >>>> The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you >>>> replace the current RPF check which looks like this: >>>> {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port} >>>> >>>> with a modified check which looks like this: >>>> >>>> {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac} >>>> >>>> This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they were >>>> sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently >>>> separate adjacency and RPF checks. >>>> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> -- >>>> Sunny Rajagopalan >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 10 18:57:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6393B21F8598 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:57:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E9jc48jCn7AL for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5CE21F858E for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2B2egTk023265; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [12.22.58.30]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2B2druu023163 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B8221F8517 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:39:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EeF5nvRNQlF9; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F8A21F84E1; Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:39:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.00 Message-ID: <20120311023948.7018.41268.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:39:48 -0800 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: internet-drafts@ietf.org X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2B2druu023163 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: [rbridge] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01.txt X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links Working Group of the IETF. Title : TRILL: Clarifications, Corrections, and Updates Author(s) : Donald Eastlake Mingui Zhang Anoop Ghanwani Ayan Banerjee Vishwas Manral Filename : draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2012-03-10 The IETF TRILL (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links) protocol provides least cost pair-wise data forwarding without configuration in multi-hop networks with arbitrary topology, safe forwarding even during periods of temporary loops, and support for multipathing of both unicast and multicast traffic. TRILL accomplishes this by using IS-IS (Intermediate System to Intermediate System) link state routing and by encapsulating traffic using a header that includes a hop count. Since the TRILL base protocol was approved in March 2010, active development of TRILL has revealed a few errata in the original RFC 6325 and some cases that could use clarifications or updates. RFC 6327 and RFC 6439 provide clarifications and updates with respect to Adjacency, Appointed Forwarders, and the TRILL ESADI protocol. This document provide other known clarifications, corrections, and updates to RFC 6325, RFC 6327, and RFC 6439. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01.txt _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sun Mar 11 09:35:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0509D21F8752 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 09:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.666, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HZgI0InjjXnt for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BB021F8625 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2BGQvpM021736; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 09:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.force10networks.com (maa.force10networks.com [59.163.202.254]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2BGQatP021712 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 09:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com ([10.16.127.20]) by exch7-maa-fe.force10networks.com ([10.16.126.10]) with mapi; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 21:56:32 +0530 From: Balaji Venkat Venkataswami To: "draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect@tools.ietf.org" Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 21:56:27 +0530 Thread-Topic: draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect Thread-Index: Acz/o7UhtTrje3p0RzWiZ0TA9F3seQ== Message-ID: <5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B4922193C17CFEFF2@EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: BckB CA4G CQsz CpIP KkuB NiwY O0R5 PXaT Poba QQCa QY4p SPek SZHu SqGY SvCz V6Fo; 2; ZAByAGEAZgB0AC0AYQBsAGQAcgBpAG4ALQB0AHIAaQBsAGwALQBkAGEAdABhAC0AYwBlAG4AdABlAHIALQBpAG4AdABlAHIAYwBvAG4AbgBlAGMAdABAAHQAbwBvAGwAcwAuAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA7AHIAYgByAGkAZABnAGUAQABwAG8AcwB0AGUAbAAuAG8AcgBnAA==; Sosha1_v1; 7; {131D6A1C-8DBE-4246-B5DA-136219B3AF5F}; YgBhAGwAYQBqAGkAdgBlAG4AawBhAHQAQABmAG8AcgBjAGUAMQAwAG4AZQB0AHcAbwByAGsAcwAuAGMAbwBtAA==; Sun, 11 Mar 2012 16:26:27 GMT; ZAByAGEAZgB0AC0AYQBsAGQAcgBpAG4ALQB0AHIAaQBsAGwALQBkAGEAdABhAC0AYwBlAG4AdABlAHIALQBpAG4AdABlAHIAYwBvAG4AbgBlAGMAdAA= x-cr-puzzleid: {131D6A1C-8DBE-4246-B5DA-136219B3AF5F} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: balajivenkat@force10networks.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , Bhargav Bhikkaji , Narayana Perumal Subject: [rbridge] draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0542272786==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0542272786== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B4922193C17CFEFF2EXCHCLUSTER11_" --_000_5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B4922193C17CFEFF2EXCHCLUSTER11_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Sam Aldrin, Donald , Tissa, Ayan, Santiago, We were taking a look at your draft trill-data-center-interconnect. We had earlier on February 25th submitted a draft that addresses the same p= roblem as you have. draft-balaji-trill-over-ip-multi-level which is available as version 04. In your draft we see section 3.3 TRILL campus interconnection over VPNs. In that section you state a few reasons for not deploying VPNs as the solut= ion. Our draft proposes the use of VPNs and BGP-MAC-VPN VRFs specifically for th= is purpose. At the same time, we see in section 6.1 BGP Extension, the term RD being us= ed in your PDU format. Now does the term RD mean Route Distinguisher ? If so then that is a BGP-VPN RFC 2547 term. What is the specific BGP NLRI that you are using to transport the MAC infor= mation from PE to PE ? Could you please be more specific on this ? Your inputs would be most useful. thanks and regards, bhargav, balaji and Swamy --_000_5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B4922193C17CFEFF2EXCHCLUSTER11_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Sam Aldrin, Donald , Tissa, Ayan, Santiago,<= /o:p>

 

We were taking a look at your draft trill-data-center-interconnect.

 

We had earlier on February 25th submitted a draft that addresses the same problem as you have.

draft-balaji-trill-over-ip-multi-level which is availa= ble as version 04.

 

In your draft we see section 3.3 TRILL campus intercon= nection over VPNs.

In that section you state a few reasons for not deploy= ing VPNs as the solution.

 

Our draft proposes the use of VPNs and BGP-MAC-VPN VRF= s specifically for this purpose.

 

At the same time, we see in section 6.1 BGP Extension,= the term RD being used in your PDU format.

 

Now does the term RD mean Route Distinguisher ?

 

If so then that is a BGP-VPN RFC 2547 term.

 

What is the specific BGP NLRI that you are using to transport the MAC information from PE to PE ?

Could you please be more specific on this ?=

 

Your inputs would be most useful.

 

thanks and regards,

bhargav, balaji and Swamy

--_000_5EC91DDA759C324DB62C5A5F7B4922193C17CFEFF2EXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============0542272786== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0542272786==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 12 12:23:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E6421F88D7 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:23:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.724, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L8XSWkdaiLvf for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0729521F8864 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CJ1FCh007223; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CJ0sbA007190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so6942357lah.39 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:00:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=n+vRYEPwW84VzCMx7D0MN+Hc9j5GCcr68HEoKlFCYiU=; b=Y5yqamsSpWt+vAq75LIhpFixcK49CV1FO4AM/4M5NKUIFx3i5wuhP7zNaUBlJz+D73 DCg+hWsdZtKw+ivyvoefCHjB0UFt3XI91J447YSHP7GHvGyun2HqC09c+aYkFb6GoWBB SIQ4Ut5Fw50Dy9InbPEknSghE56t99WnIury77dPUDNTVdUYybVpOd9MZljdxU1tn+/8 NF13H4bnXeL+2okPZv6+HaqHw3yQHfKy56GkysahWJFfIuV3epIiLoQuZvQxxgpLr3+F R8giV35O7YFBWN8RMl49v72wk5hBoHh0ahtG5ek4bcrcLJ2ZYZ9S2f/tSIghlOrKuwOX Y9Rg== Received: by 10.112.98.198 with SMTP id ek6mr3343381lbb.4.1331578853741; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:00:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.13.227 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:00:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120312185047.15786.2422.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20120312185047.15786.2422.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:00:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2CJ0sbA007190 Subject: [rbridge] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-yong-trill-trill-o-mpls-01.txt X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org A new version of I-D, draft-yong-trill-trill-o-mpls-01.txt has been successfully submitted and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0draft-yong-trill-trill-o-mpls Revision: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A001 Title: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links (TR= ILL) over MPLS Pseudo Wires Creation date: =A0 2012-03-10 WG ID: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Individual Submission Number of pages: 14 Abstract: =A0 This informational document describes ways to interconnect TRILL =A0 RBridges by using MPLS Pseudo Wire (PW) services with existing TRILL =A0 and MPLS standards so as to form a unified TRILL campus. _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 12 12:39:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1160021E8090 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:39:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.715, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dj86O0IP4dSO for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DF8121E805C for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CIxmEk006969; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CIxFL4006901 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so6939648lah.39 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:59:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k5v7JwQFSGplT6lIWFUZ2VwnnnNGl765zbfkqDAEdq8=; b=rC4fPaJ2pRF8PPVN6vdR0iX6FyCPe10jrgvnZOZ/o6VGxV+R+zCHJP7uRAi/DKz7xP 8MoDUzvH0OM4eaFrOKDqXLFGHe7diGyBRWqhHgn2R06Gs4ZlXiLuI9EGtur+lceuD6Au g5VRThRE8E03DRF5QsFyxVC79Ts8y3iX88WKGP8IhihlbUoVpXarP9EYm7+8ZpDP0tfy 049V0KUHtC3GAX4zzUVZjSyQwrsD2PN7DOJkvQY/jOEXSU9NPmqq1Uovg7pjTD42Ewdn pJGgGd4BEpO78NQbVZzkUoWzju6v6p5ZNq1jFAqtZHclvzx/7zVetVY76ncvMu+8UKtS kAnw== Received: by 10.152.147.1 with SMTP id tg1mr10059220lab.22.1331578754440; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:59:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.13.227 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:58:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120311023948.7018.41268.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20120311023948.7018.41268.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:58:54 -0400 Message-ID: To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2CIxFL4006901 Subject: Re: [rbridge] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01.txt X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi, This version incorporates changes from Mike Shand's comments http://www.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge/2012-March/004851.html and the suggested addition here http://www.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge/2012-March/004854.html Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 9:39 PM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots= of Links Working Group of the IETF. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : TRILL: Clarifications, Correct= ions, and Updates > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : Donald Eastlake > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Mingui Zhang > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Anoop Ghanwani > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Ayan Banerjee > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Vishwas Manral > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-0= 1.txt > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 28 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2012-03-10 > > =A0 The IETF TRILL (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links) > =A0 protocol provides least cost pair-wise data forwarding without > =A0 configuration in multi-hop networks with arbitrary topology, safe > =A0 forwarding even during periods of temporary loops, and support for > =A0 multipathing of both unicast and multicast traffic. TRILL > =A0 accomplishes this by using IS-IS (Intermediate System to Intermediate > =A0 System) link state routing and by encapsulating traffic using a > =A0 header that includes a hop count. Since the TRILL base protocol was > =A0 approved in March 2010, active development of TRILL has revealed a > =A0 few errata in the original RFC 6325 and some cases that could use > =A0 clarifications or updates. > > =A0 RFC 6327 and RFC 6439 provide clarifications and updates with respect > =A0 to Adjacency, Appointed Forwarders, and the TRILL ESADI protocol. > =A0 This document provide other known clarifications, corrections, and > =A0 updates to RFC 6325, RFC 6327, and RFC 6439. > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 12 14:12:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7154E21F893B for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.999, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GCfWbDgbyNSV for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBE311E8074 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CKmJ8Q025415; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [12.22.58.30]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CKllVA025352 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E2111E8106 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:47:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9yiso4TMin2; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9266711E80FF; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.00 Message-ID: <20120312204745.32086.38258.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:47:45 -0700 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: internet-drafts@ietf.org X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2CKllVA025352 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: [rbridge] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02.txt X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links Working Group of the IETF. Title : Routing Bridges (RBridges): Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Support Author(s) : David Michael Bond Vishwas Manral Filename : draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02.txt Pages : 33 Date : 2012-03-12 Routing Bridges (RBridges) implement the TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links (TRILL) protocol which provide a transparent least- cost frame routing in multi-hop networks with arbitrary topologies, while also inherently providing loop mitigation. As RBridges are deployed in real-world situations, operators will need tools for debugging problems that arise. This document specifies a set of RBridge features for operations, administration, and maintenance (OAM) purposes in RBridge campuses. The features specified in this document include tools for traceroute, ping, and error reporting. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02.txt _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 12 15:29:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F10221E8121 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:29:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.625 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.625 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.228, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4D9IJIVaZZnl for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2977E21E8120 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CM75a1009017; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com (e2.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.142]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CM6YEN008914 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e2.ny.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:06:31 -0400 Received: from d01relay03.pok.ibm.com (d01relay03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.235]) by d01dlp02.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91E96E8057 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (d03av06.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.245]) by d01relay03.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2CM6Tpu309652 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:06:30 -0400 Received: from d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2CM6kVt031335 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:06:46 -0600 Received: from d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.18]) by d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2CM6kKb031324 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:06:46 -0600 In-Reply-To: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5B5D721@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> References: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5B5D721@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> To: rbridge@postel.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 3C8E33E1:2CACCA37-872579BF:0072D485; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: From: Santosh Rajagopalan Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:06:34 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM127/03/M/IBM(Release 8.5.1FP2|March 17, 2010) at 03/12/2012 16:06:28, Serialize complete at 03/12/2012 16:06:28 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12031222-5112-0000-0000-0000061C698F X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00DF21E8260 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:48:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.950, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCXws+STnPyU for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75B221E8256 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CNeusw024552; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [12.22.58.30]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2CNeaOg024509 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B65D21E8236 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:40:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tOL8+5jr6ohJ; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D869B21F8B42; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:40:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.00 Message-ID: <20120312234035.24656.59767.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:40:35 -0700 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: internet-drafts@ietf.org X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2CNeaOg024509 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: [rbridge] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-03.txt X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links Working Group of the IETF. Title : Rbridges: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) support for TRILL Author(s) : Vishwas Manral Donald Eastlake Dave Ward Ayan Banerjee Filename : draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-03.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2012-03-12 This document specifies use of the BFD (Bidirectional Forwarding Detection) protocol in RBridge campuses based on the Rbridge extension to the the TRILL (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links) protocol. BFD is a widely deployed OAM (Operations, Administration, and Maintenance) mechanism in IP and MPLS networks, using UDP and ACH encapsulation respectively. This document specifies the BFD encapsulation over TRILL. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-03.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-03.txt _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 13 07:09:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968FF21F884F for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uxWiGzYj4d4Q for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A4521F8880 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2DDlHm9027517; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 06:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e38.co.us.ibm.com (e38.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.159]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2DDl4Lp027487 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 06:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e38.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted for from ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:47:03 -0600 Received: from d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (9.56.224.17) by e38.co.us.ibm.com (192.168.1.138) with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:47:02 -0600 Received: from d01relay01.pok.ibm.com (d01relay01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.233]) by d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C46C9005E for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay01.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2DDkx7L270186 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:47:00 -0400 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2DDkxxT032088 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:46:59 -0300 Received: from d01ml076.pok.ibm.com (d01ml076.pok.ibm.com [9.63.8.33]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2DDkxC8032067 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:46:59 -0300 X-KeepSent: 5781C178:A3AC9942-852579C0:00490684; type=4; name=$KeepSent To: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: From: David M Bond Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:46:57 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D01ML076/01/M/IBM(Release 8.5.3 ZX853HP5|January 12, 2012) at 03/13/2012 09:46:59 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12031313-5518-0000-0000-000002EA2630 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: dmbond@us.ibm.com Subject: [rbridge] New Revision of TRILL OAM WG Draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hello Working Group, I've submitted a new revision of the draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02 which contains numerous changes as seen in the change list below. One of the bigger changes was after receiving input I removed a lot of the error codes that were in the previous version of the draft. The thought here was unless there is a clear need for an error type we shouldn't define it. If a use case comes up in the future the error code can be defined at that point. Most of those error codes can be better represented in the MIB. Thoughts? Thanks, David B.1. Changes from -01 to -02 Moved the values table to the message format section and converted from table to list. Added previous hop information TLV. Removed error codes that were not needed. Added path sharing traceroute with 'real' data being sent. Added mention of BFD draft. Made most TLVs optional to allow hardware/fast path implementations where this information might not be available. Changed Next Hop Nickname TLV into Next Hop Information TLV since next hop might not always reserve a nickname. The new TLV includes the next hop system id. Numerous minor typo corrections and wording clarifications. _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 13 12:05:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A0121E8064 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:05:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.084 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.084 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rSvTe9JOhhdC for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73E321E8069 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2DIafVw019399; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f180.google.com (mail-iy0-f180.google.com [209.85.210.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2DIa1f3019307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iage36 with SMTP id e36so1782169iag.39 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:36:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=X6fCV5YosQ69t8rpFvR39MJpRN9AU+XneC4mMtRSuUA=; b=xhC+WV9XbFCoat8fTxOAbTetfvp/LWlYdwfg5Y03paz+Q6YMawYQcIuKFVHb59/F8J KyFfoND7ckMJRz5Jsn4pJsHdMeOIkV6rDuBbRgg7kCoTMIwwzKCMsZEI+yc6dSFL45Zl WDeiWPylHORDS232D3TB88qxr+lg4RNBhIa4Yu+D7MkN0a1z70Bq5xWuY4mrq7PTlAP/ ENwQ9sgx4k8K/Y0S399WuZhNLwk3w2pwRzp2Pts4FJbpz6UUzyEp9yMHnfwqGSoUJroi +oOrc7g0LZ9+pl8XPuybXNnEdn2YGH8rdas85uH77kq2uQfonfIjxBULbN3V35gWPsYX 4YUQ== Received: by 10.50.192.196 with SMTP id hi4mr6344969igc.55.1331663760903; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.255.118] ([12.207.18.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x1sm1205195igc.16.2012.03.13.11.35.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:35:59 -0700 (PDT) References: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5B5D721@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <1A2726F7-A393-470C-9CA1-B09A5A82292D@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B176) From: Sam Aldrin Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:35:55 -0700 To: Santosh Rajagopalan X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1802759790==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1802759790== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-420729A5-41FC-4CD6-8847-6339A52CF96E --Apple-Mail-420729A5-41FC-4CD6-8847-6339A52CF96E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 See inline for my response to your questions. -sam Sent from my iPad On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan wrote: > 1) Let's say that you are trying to find all possible paths between two rb= ridges (or liveliness) for a)unicast, b) multicast (unpruned) and c) multica= st (pruned). My proposal below will let you discover all three, without nee= ding IP. Since we're using the rbridge channel ethertype, rbridges can trap= these and prevent them from getting to hosts at the edge. Note that we rely= on unicast forwarding of rbridge channel packets for unicast discovery and m= ulticast forwarding of rbridge channel packets for multicast discovery. This= happens naturally in any trill compliant switch.=20 %sam - Discovering all of the paths is one part and discovering a path a spe= cific flow takes is another problem. What we are trying to say is channel dr= aft does not allow the full flexibility, for Unicast and multicast combinati= ons. As was answered in the original email by Tissa, that multicast pruning h= appens with IP VLAN combinations with channel drafts such things are not pos= sible. IP invalid checksum method has danger of triggering invalid packet co= unters and lead to administration nightmare in hosting providers. We encour= age you to check this with providers. The same was attempted while doing OAM= for PW's etc, and received a strong no-no. >=20 > 2) Let's say that you already have the information from 1) above, but you a= re trying to figure out which of the many paths you know of will be used for= a particular flow. Now, draft-tissa-trill-oam assumes that the inner ethern= et header is never used for hashing for an IP flow. It assumes that as long a= s you keep the L3 and L4 fields the same as that of the original packet, har= dware will hash to the same values as that from the original flow, even thou= gh the L2 header is different ("6.2. Identification of IP Flows" in draft-t= issa-trill-oam ). I do not think this is a valid assumption to make. The onl= y way to make sure your probe packet takes the same path as a regular packet= is to make it identical to the original packet, all the way including the L= 2 headers. The IP checksum is never used for hashing, so you can invalidate i= t to make sure such packets get dropped at the host. This is the approach I w= as advocating for doing path discovery for a particular flow.=20 %sam- You have not read section 6..3 of draft-tissa-trill-oam, (Tissa pointe= d this out in his earlier response as well). Section 6.3 is all about using u= nmodified header. Please read section 6.3. Also this method cannot be used f= or Multicast as answered above will trigger invalid packet count. >=20 > 3) The only hash behavior we can be sure of is that if you give any asic a= non-IP packet, it will do load balancing using the only available fields, w= hich is ethernet smac + dmac. I'm exploiting this property to do path discov= ery (the rbridge ethertype makes asics treat these packets as non-IP). There= fore, if you vary the inner dmac, you can exercise all the available paths. P= aths you discover using this approach are applicable to both IP and non-IP t= raffic, since trill routes are common for both. The only hash assumption I'v= e made is that L2 unknown ethertype (rbridge channel) packets get load bala= nced using the inner dmac/smac. I am making no assumption about the fields u= sed by the hardware for hashing IP packets.=20 %sam- Are you suggesting ingress node to randomely change the DMAC, Point is= how you going to randomly change a DMAC and ensure it is taking a specific p= ath. ?=20 >=20 > 4) People adopting TRILL are more likely to come from an ethernet backgrou= nd than from an MPLS background. For our target audience, it's important for= OAM to look like what they're already familiar with, which is ethernet OAM.= TRILL competes with SPB for the same space, and note that they make a virtu= e of being ethernet OAM compatible. Do many people on this list feel MPLS OA= M is the way to go for us?=20 %sam - that is your assumption, not necessary that others share the same vie= w. OAM, irrespective of different layers, share common characteristics. Reus= ing what we learnt in other areas is very useful. Having said that, folks wh= o use OAM do not see how it is implemented, rather it is for the implementor= who cares for it. If you go by your logic, mpls OAM is not right because it= uses IP model and mpls is not IP. Trill as such has evolved by bringing ip and bridging technologies together,= with best of both in each category. Just because one likes Ethernet OAM, do= esn't mean, anything to do with Ethernet , should always do Ethernet OAM. Th= e same argument was used for mpls TP OAM as well. We all know the result. The proposal here is to use the proven methodology and is working. If it is s= olving problem, why reinvent the wheel all over again. Better make use of it= . If the solution cannot work, then we can discuss about those points, rathe= r than predefining the solution to fit based on what one feels. As far as Qbp goes, the concept of flows and it's identification is differen= t. You cannot just compare as is for TRILL. If you want, we can discuss in t= hat list, to get complete perspective. >=20 > 5) I'm assuming that when operators lay out a network, they have access to= a picture that shows the interconnects (or at least have some management to= ol speaking snmp that does). So when they need to discover the DRB on a mult= i-access link, then can send an SNMP query to the rbridges connected on that= link to get the DRB information. This also goes for finding the mac address= es on a given rbridge, finding the address bindings at a particular rbridge e= tc. All of these "property query" type messages are exactly what SNMP was ma= de for. Some things like finding the vn-tag, vxlan ID, nvgre ID etc are with= in the domain of SNMP but out of scope for TRILL. What is trill-specific abo= ut these?=20 %sam - if everything is available through Snmp, even performing OAM function= s is redundant. Basing a model on Snmp is expensive and intensive. If we go b= y the argument of yours, Ethernet OAM, why do you need to export performance= stats in band, when you can query the same using snmp? My answer is simple. If one feels the need to export data or query data, we p= rovide a mechanism without relying solely on SNMP. While we find it useful, e= veryone may not, that doesn't mean, it is not useful. If a vendor chooses no= t to implement, it is fine. >=20 > I haven't responded to any statements below which are based on a misunders= tanding of my original email, please re-review it and I'll be happy to answe= r questions on it.=20 I do not see what was not understood. You can clarify if something was not a= ddressed right. Sam >=20 > best regards,=20 > Sunny Rajagopalan=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" =20 > To: =20 > Date: 03/08/2012 09:28 AM=20 > Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraf= t-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam=20 > Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Firstly there are few critical high-level points that needed to be stated=20= > =20 > 1. OAM cannot be just detecting Liveliness and Path discovery. It is a= bout Operational aspects of networks which include but not limited to Detect= ing Liveliness, Path Discovery, Fault finding, Fault Isolation etc. OAM is n= ever constrained to ping and trace route. Look at where OAM is heading to i= n MPLS and MPLS-TP.=20 > 2. TRILL cannot be compared 1-1 with Ethernet or IP. TRILL encapsulat= e the user payload with the TRILL header and utilize that to forward using T= RILL header and some parts of user payload (e,g, ECMP and mcast forwarding a= nd pruning). TRILL utilize multiple paths and multi destination tress. In th= at regard it is similar to a tunneling protocol. Most logical comparison of T= RILL OAM is RFC 4379 MPLS OAM If one takes a look at TRILL evolution, multip= athing is the fundamental point of leveraging IP technology within bridging.= If one cannot perform OAM functions to verify all the paths, it is a moot p= oint to develop OAM functions.=20 > 3. What is fundamentally required in TRILL OAM is to have OAM framewo= rk that allows to keep OAM frames as close as possible to data packet. ICMP i= s not utilized as a Ping or Traceroute. Motivation here is to provide such f= ramework in backward compatible manner without introducing additional restri= ctions. As an example, channel draft, which define the framework of OAM chan= nel you are proposing require to use RBridge critical alert bit. RBridges th= at are not supporting that cannot claim it is Channel capable. Additionally,= Channel header follows right after the inner MAC header. This limit includi= ng any L3 frames. It is a common practice to select ECMP based on IP flow in= formation and multicast prune based on IP address. (Please see rfc6326 bis f= or Group IP Address sub-TLV. draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which you ar= e proposing to use do not provide that flexibility. In your response below y= ou have proposed several alternatives but in our mind they do not achieve wh= at is required in OAM. Please see specific responses embedded.=20 > 4. Current suggestion from WG members are to utilize RFC 4379 framewo= rk, as that allow to utilize lots of existing knowledge, implementation and u= ser experience from MPLS OAM.=20 > 5. The embedded message channel is utilized so receiver can identify O= AM frames from data frames and take appropriate actions. Without limiting w= hat payloads can be include in the OAM packet.=20 > 6. You have proposed to use incremental TTL value method for multicas= t with invalid IP checksum. Firstly given the tree depth is different in dif= ferent branches, this will invariably leak packets out. And will lead to inc= rementing IP invalid packet count on end stations. In hosting application th= is may generate unwanted support calls, and something that should not be don= e. In draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 section 6.3 propose to use this exact method o= nly for unciast. Additionally because we can identify OAM frames from real d= ata with TTL expiry due to embedded message channel, we notify that as the l= ast hop bridge and user would not generate N+1 TTL packet.=20 > 7. Below you have proposed to utilize multicast for path trace (trace= route). Whole purpose of OAM is data plane integrity verification. Trace r= oute in particular, used for fault isolation. Multicast use a different forw= arding logic than that of unicast. Use of Multicast to trace route unicat is= not going to achieve what is needed and negate the use of OAM. Additionally= there are several issues such multicast tree may not cover all links in the= campus and so on. Please see specific response embedded in the relevant sec= tion=20 > 8. You are proposing to merge the two drafts and I do not see a commo= nality based on your responses below.=20 > =20 > Please see more specific answers below=20 > =20 > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Be= half Of Santosh Rajagopalan > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM > To: rbridge@postel.org > Cc: Santosh Rajagopalan > Subject: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbrid= ge-oam=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > Hi, > We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-= rbridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls f= or a revised draft with the best ideas from both. >=20 > draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc. The major reas= on for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have s= ome suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam withou= t using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be r= ightly queried from a MIB. >=20 > I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that woul= d be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters= has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNM= P query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look a= t the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they ha= ve a place here. >=20 > Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis: >=20 > 1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (i= t does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connecti= vity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting th= e two. One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the e= cho request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie c= ould be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The resp= onse could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If th= e sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanis= m then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a f= eature borrowed from ethernet OAM.=20 > [Answer] Seem the paragraph is contradicting itself. Firstly you say ping i= s to detect the liveliness. Then you say it can be detected to measure jitte= r, delay etc. If there are 10 ECMP paths and if you can only measure latency= of one it does not give true picture of the information.=20 >=20 > 2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (= you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implementa= tions usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with= appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" p= ath to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enume= rate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow w= ould take are good to have features.=20 > [Answer] This is not a good to have feature, but a MUST, because it is fun= damental to fault isolation. Take a look at MPLS OAM and its problem stateme= nt. It is no different here. If you model the way you say, running ICMP ping= between RBridge suffice the need. Each Rbridge has IP stack anyway. Also, i= n Linux we do have =E2=80=93I options to trigger ICMP.=20 >=20 > Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achiev= e this:=20 > [Answer] All of the below is based on using multicast trees. Are you sugge= sting to use multicast to do trace route. Whole purpose of OAM is data plane= integrity verification. Trace route in particular, used for fault isolation= . Multicast use a different forwarding logic than that of unicast. Use of Mu= lticast to trace route unicat is not going to achieve what is needed. Second= ly, multicast trees will not cover all links. Case in point is having a sing= le tree.=20 > a. Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing= unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channe= l message to the respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridge= s". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message wit= h incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you= what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint y= ou a picture of the different trees.=20 > [Answer] First reaction to this was am I reading this correctly. After rea= ding this one more time it appeared I am reading it correctly. There are thr= ee main issues: 1. There can be 1000 of RBRidges, and getting a response fro= m all of them going to overwhelm. Probably choke the CPU of the requester. 2= . When you do incremental TTL value, it will leak out at the last RBridge. 3= . Tree does not include all paths. Assume you have 1 tree, (Which is a perfe= ctly a valid configuration), how are you going to cover links not in the tre= e.=20 > b. Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "al= l-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address o= f the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enume= rate all possible pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rb= ridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dm= ac to be all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by it= self to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requ= irement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternat= ive inner dmacs where needed.=20 > [Answer] Fundamental problem:. Prune tree works based on VLAN and MAC addr= ess or VLAN and IP address. Are you suggesting to try all VLAN all address h= ere ?=20 > c. Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recomme= nd building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (= with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge cha= nnel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with tha= t of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked pac= kets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is neve= r used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl fiel= d in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet in= to the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the= path.=20 > [Answer] Aha you are now acknowledging IP is used for ECMP hash. Now I am w= ondering how Channel header can facilitate that. The concept of utilizing in= valid checksum is already covered in draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 Section 6.3. S= econdly using TTL in multicast is a dangerous thing, as tree depth can be di= fferent and packets can leak out. You may not want to trigger invalid IP che= cksum counter on your hosting servers. As that may generate additional suppo= rt calls. Checksum invalid SHOULD only be used to protect against unlikely c= ase packets leaking out. Not the default.=20 > Question: Are you suggesting to include IP Multicast packets in the native= form here or encap within channel header ?=20 > d. Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch yo= u're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner D= MAC. Construct the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basic= ally, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value= . This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only o= n the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an e= cho request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path fr= om the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, a= nd repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow y= ou to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination.=20 > [Answer] You are making big assumption here. Firstly hash is not defined i= n any standard and it is implementation depended. Some devices may use SMAC:= DMAC VLAN combination, Some may use IP flow information. May be low ends use= just DMAC. In anycase selecting Random values are not going to gurentee a c= overing all paths. Secondly one may not even know how many ECMP options avai= lable on an RBridge 3 hops away. This is the reason more elaborate methods a= re required RFC 4379 explain How this can be done in MPLS. Based on the feed= back received during the last WG session in Taipei, we have also enhanced to= included this. Please see section 9.9. This needed to be done in more syste= matic manner rather than randomly generating DMAC. DMAC means Destination MA= C. SMAC means Source MAC=20 > e. Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we= did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac= address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to de= bug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP chec= ksum to be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that y= ou're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on receive= d ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.=20 > [Answer] This same concept is in section 6.3 of draft-tissa-trill-oam. =20= > Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving t= he objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are techn= ically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objecti= ve.=20 >=20 > 3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a p= art of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam ne= eds to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge c= hannel to achieve this. >=20 > 4) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethe= rnet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/receive del= ays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as= described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote dis= covery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just l= ogin to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly,= or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionality which is bet= ter done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-tr= ill-oam should be taken out. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Answer] Your understanding is incorrect. TTM is utilized not for counter= s but to ensure that specific flows are reaching specifc devices. This is in= cluded as part of feedback received from the WG in Tapei. This is an adaptat= ion of Data Driven CFM .=20 >=20 > 5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is prob= ably done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "s= how l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Answer] How do you know which device to login to use show commands/=20 >=20 > 6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being a= ble to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This i= s again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic= MIB walk case.=20 > [Answer] How do you know which device is having the MAC so you can do the w= alk ? >=20 > 7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM dra= ft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI.=20 > [Answer] Firstly how do you know which device to login to use CLI. Secondl= y, anything that improve usability and experience of users can be always inc= luded. >=20 > 8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this d= raft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags). >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Answer] Terminology can be changed to include what is defined in VXLAN, N= VGRE etc. The case in point is when there are other overlay technologies how= to identify different address association. Certain VM may use the same MAC a= ddress to associate with different VXLAN segments.=20 >=20 > best, > Sunny Rajagopalan=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail-420729A5-41FC-4CD6-8847-6339A52CF96E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
See inline for my response= to your questions.

-sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com> w= rote:

1) Let's say that you are trying to find all possible paths between two rbridges (or liveliness) for a)unicast, b) multicast (unpruned) and c) multicast (pruned). My proposal  below will let you discover all three, without needing IP.  Since we're using the rbridge channel ethertype, rbridges can trap these and prevent them from getting to hosts at the edge. Note that we rely on unicast forward= ing of rbridge channel packets for unicast discovery and multicast forwarding of rbridge channel packets for multicast discovery. This happens naturally in any trill compliant switch.
%sam - Discovering all of the paths is one part a= nd discovering a path a specific flow takes is another problem. What we are t= rying to say is channel draft does not allow the full flexibility, for Unica= st and multicast combinations. As was answered in the original email by Tiss= a, that multicast pruning happens with IP VLAN combinations with channel dra= fts such things are not possible. IP invalid checksum method has danger of t= riggering invalid packet counters  and lead to administration nightmare= in hosting providers. We encourage you to check this with providers. The sa= me was attempted while doing OAM for PW's etc, and received a strong no-no.<= /span>

2) Let's say that you already have t= he information from 1) above, but you are trying to figure out which of the many paths you know of will be used for a particular flow. Now, draft-tissa-= trill-oam assumes that the inner ethernet header is never used for hashing for an IP flow. It assumes that as long as you keep the L3 and L4 fields the same as that of the original packet, hardware will hash to the same values as that from the original flow, even though the L2 header is different ("6.2. Identification of IP Flows" in  draft-tissa-trill-oam ). I do not think this is a valid assumption to make. The only way to make sure your probe packet takes the same path as a regular packet is to make it identical to the original packet, all the way including the L2 headers. The IP checksum is never used for hashing,= so you can invalidate it to make sure such packets get dropped at the host. This is the approach I was advocating for doing path discovery for a particu= lar flow.
%sam- You have not read section 6..3 of draft-tissa-t= rill-oam, (Tissa pointed this out in his earlier response as well). Section 6= .3 is all about using unmodified header. Please read section 6.3. Also this m= ethod cannot be used for Multicast as answered above will trigger invalid pa= cket count.

3) The only hash behavior we can be= sure of is that if you give any asic a non-IP packet, it will do load balanc= ing using the only available fields, which is ethernet smac + dmac. I'm exploiti= ng this property to do path discovery (the rbridge ethertype makes asics treat these packets as non-IP). Therefore, if you vary the inner dmac, you can exercise all the available paths. Paths you discover using this approach are applicable to both IP and non-IP traffic, since trill routes are common for both. The only hash assumption I've made is that L2 unknown ethertype (rbridge channel)  packets get load balanced using the inner dmac/smac.= I am making no assumption about the fields used by the hardware for hashing IP packets.
%sam- Are you suggesting ingress node to randomely ch= ange the DMAC, Point is how you going to randomly change a DMAC and ensure i= t is taking a specific path. ? 

4) People adopting TRILL are more l= ikely to come from an ethernet background than from an MPLS background. For our target audience, it's important for OAM to look like what they're already familiar with, which is ethernet OAM. TRILL competes with SPB for the same space, and note that they make a virtue of being ethernet OAM compatible. Do many people on this list feel MPLS OAM is the way to go for us?
%sam - that is your assumption, not necessary that ot= hers share the same view. OAM, irrespective of different layers, share commo= n characteristics. Reusing what we learnt in other areas is very useful. Hav= ing said that, folks who use OAM do not see how it is implemented, rather it= is for the implementor who cares for it. If you go by your logic, mpls OAM i= s not right because it uses IP model and mpls is not IP.
Trill as such h= as evolved by bringing ip and bridging technologies together, with best of b= oth in each category. Just because one likes Ethernet OAM, doesn't mean, any= thing to do with Ethernet , should always do Ethernet OAM. The same argument= was used for mpls TP OAM as well. We all know the result.
The pro= posal here is to use the proven methodology and is working. If it is solving= problem, why reinvent the wheel all over again. Better make use of it. If t= he solution cannot work, then we can discuss about those points, rather than= predefining the solution to fit based on what one feels.
As far a= s Qbp goes, the concept of flows and it's identification is different. You c= annot just compare as is for TRILL. If you want, we can discuss in that list= , to get complete perspective.

5) I'm assuming that when operators= lay out a network, they have access to a picture that shows the interconnect= s (or at least have some management tool speaking snmp that does). So when they need to discover the DRB on a multi-access link, then can send an SNMP query to the rbridges connected on that link to get the DRB information= . This also goes for finding the mac addresses on a given rbridge, finding the address bindings at a particular rbridge etc. All of these "property query" type messages are exactly what SNMP was made for. Some things like finding the vn-tag, vxlan ID, nvgre ID etc are within the domain of SNMP but out of scope for TRILL. What is trill-specific about these? =
%sam - if everything is available through Snmp, even p= erforming OAM functions is redundant. Basing a model on Snmp is expensive an= d intensive. If we go by the argument of yours, Ethernet OAM, why do you nee= d to export performance stats in band, when you can query the same using snm= p?
My answer is simple. If one feels the need to export data or qu= ery data, we provide a mechanism without relying solely on SNMP. While we fi= nd it useful, everyone may not, that doesn't mean, it is not useful. If a ve= ndor chooses not to implement, it is fine.

I haven't responded to any statemen= ts below which are based on a misunderstanding of my original email, please re-review it and I'll be happy to answer questions on it.
I do not see what was not understood. You can clarify= if something was not addressed right.

Sam

best regards,
Sunny Rajagopalan




From:   &nbs= p;    "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com= >
To:    =    <rbridge@postel.org>
Date:   &nbs= p;    03/08/2012 09:28 AM=
Subject:   &= nbsp;    Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam        anddraft-ietf-trill= -rbridge-oam
Sent by:   &= nbsp;    rbridge-bounces@postel.org



Firstly there are fe= w critical high-level points that needed to be stated
 
1.      = OAM cannot be just detecting Liveliness and Path discovery. It is about Operatio= nal aspects of networks which include but not limited to Detecting Liveliness, Path Discovery, Fault finding, Fault Isolation etc. OAM is never constrained= to ping and trace route.  Look at where OAM is heading to in MPLS and MPLS-TP.
2.      = TRILL cannot be compared 1-1 with Ethernet or IP. TRILL encapsulate the user payload with the TRILL header and utilize that to forward using TRILL header= and some parts of user payload (e,g, ECMP and mcast forwarding and pruning).= TRILL utilize multiple paths and multi destination tress. In that regard it is similar to a tunneling protocol. Most logical comparison of TRILL OAM is RFC 4379 MPLS OAM If one takes a look at TRILL evolution, multipathin= g is the fundamental point of leveraging IP technology within bridging. If one cannot perform OAM functions to verify all the paths, it is a moot point to develop OAM functions.
3.      = What is fundamentally required in TRILL OAM is to have OAM framework that allows to keep OAM frames as close as possible to data packet. ICMP is not utilized= as a Ping or Traceroute. Motivation here is to provide such framework in backward compatible manner without introducing additional restrictions. As an example, channel draft, which define the framework of OAM channel you are proposing require to use RBridge critical alert bit. RBridges that are not supporting that cannot claim it is Channel capable. Additionally, Channel header follows right after the inner MAC header. This limit includin= g any L3 frames. It is a common practice to select ECMP based on IP flow information and multicast prune based on IP address. (Please see rfc6326 bis for Group IP Address sub-TLV.  draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which you are proposing to use do not provide that flexibility. In your response below you have proposed several alternatives but in our mind they do not achieve what is required in OAM. Please see specific responses embedd= ed.
4.      = Current suggestion from WG members are to utilize RFC 4379 framework, as that allow to utilize lots of existing knowledge, implementation and user experience from MPLS OAM.
5.      = The embedded message channel is utilized so receiver can identify OAM frames from data frames and take appropriate actions.  Without limiting what payloads can be include in the OAM packet.
6.      = You have proposed to use incremental TTL value method for multicast with invalid= IP checksum. Firstly given the tree depth is different in different branches= , this will invariably leak packets out. And will lead to incrementing IP invalid packet count on end stations. In hosting application this may genera= te unwanted support calls, and something that should not be done. In draft-tiss= a-trill-oam-03 section 6.3 propose to use this exact method only for unciast. Additionally because we can identify OAM frames from real data with TTL expiry due to embedded message channel, we notify that as the last hop bridge and user would not generate N+1 TTL packet.
7.      = Below you have proposed to utilize multicast for path trace (trace route).  W= hole purpose of OAM is data plane integrity verification. Trace route in particul= ar, used for fault isolation. Multicast use a different forwarding logic than that of unicast. Use of Multicast to trace route unicat is not going to achieve what is needed and negate the use of OAM. Additionally there are several issues such multicast tree may not cover all links in the campus and so on. Please see specific response embedded in the relevant section
8.      = You are proposing to merge the two drafts and I do not see a commonality based on your responses below.
 
Please see more spec= ific answers below
 
From: <= u>rbridge-bounces@postel.org= [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM
To: rbridge@postel.org
Cc: Santosh Rajagopalan
Subject: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbr= idge-oam
 
 
 
Hi,
We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-rb= ridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls for a revised= draft with the best ideas from both.

draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc.  The major reason for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have some suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oa= m without using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be rightly queried from a MIB.

I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that would be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNMP query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look at the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they have a place here.

Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis:

1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (it does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connec= tivity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting the two.  One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the echo request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie could be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The response could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If the sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanism then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a feature borrowed from ethernet OAM.
[Answer] Seem the pa= ragraph is contradicting itself. Firstly you say ping is to detect the liveliness. Then you say it can be detected to measure jitter, delay etc. If there are 10 ECMP paths and if you can only measure latency of one it does not give true picture of the information.

2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implement= ations usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enumerate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow would take are good to have features.
[Answer] This is not= a good to have feature, but a MUST, because it is fundamental to fault isolation. Take a look at MP= LS OAM and its problem statement. It is no different here. If you model the way you say, running ICMP ping between RBridge suffice the need. Each Rbridge has IP stack anyway. Also, in Linux we do have =E2=80=93I options to trigger= ICMP.

Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achieve this:
[Answer] All of the b= elow is based on using multicast trees. Are you suggesting to use multicast to do trace route. Whole purpose of OAM is data plane integrity verification= . Trace route in particular, used for fault isolation. Multicast use a differe= nt forwarding logic than that of unicast. Use of Multicast to trace route unicat is not going to achieve what is needed. Secondly, multicast trees will not cover all links. Case in point is having a single tree.
a.        Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel message to the respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint you a picture of the different trees.
[Answer] First react= ion to this was am I reading this correctly. After reading this one more time it appeared I am reading it correctly. There are three main issues: 1. There can be 1000 of RBRidges, and getting a response from all of them going to overwhelm. Probably choke the CPU of the requester. 2. When you do incremental TTL value, it will leak out at the last RBridge. 3. Tree does not include all paths. Assume you have 1 tree, (Which is a perfectly a valid configuration), how are you going to cover links not in the tree.
b.        Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "all-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address of the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enumerate all possibl= e pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac to be all-eg= ress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itself to classify an OAM packet= , and I am advocating that the inner dmac requirement in draft-ietf-trill-rbri= dge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternative inner dmacs where needed.
[Answer] Fundamental= problem:. Prune tree works based on VLAN and MAC address or VLAN and IP address. Are you suggesting to try all VLAN all address here ?
c.        Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.
[Answer] Aha you are= now acknowledging IP is used for ECMP hash. Now I am wondering how Channel header can facilitate that. The concept of utilizing invalid checksum is already covered in draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 Section 6.3. Secondly using TTL in multicast is a dangerous thing, as tree depth can be different and packets can leak out. You may not want to trigger invalid IP checksum counte= r on your hosting servers. As that may generate additional support calls. Checksum invalid SHOULD only be used to protect against unlikely case packet= s leaking out. Not the default.
Question: Are you su= ggesting to include IP Multicast packets in the native form here or encap within channel header ?
d.        Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Construct= the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only on the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path from the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, and repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow you to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination.
[Answer] You are mak= ing big assumption here. Firstly hash is not defined in any standard and it is implementation depended. Some devices may use SMAC:DMAC VLAN combination, Some may use IP flow information. May be low ends use just DMAC. In anycase selecting Random values are not going to gurentee a covering all paths. Secondly one may not even know how many ECMP options available on an RBridge= 3 hops away. This is the reason more elaborate methods are required RFC 4379 explain How this can be done in MPLS. Based on the feedback received during the last WG session in Taipei, we have also enhanced to included this. Please see section 9.9. This needed to be done in more systematic manner rather than randomly generating DMAC. DMAC means Destination MAC. SMAC means Source MAC
e.        Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, L4 headers= etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invali= d. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.
[Answer] This same c= oncept is in section 6.3 of draft-tissa-trill-oam.  
Note that doing this eliminates th= e reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving the objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oa= m. The fake packets generated are technically not OAM packets, just suggestions= on how to achieve a certain objective.

3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a part of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam= needs to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge= channel to achieve this.
4) draft-tissa-trill-oam  has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethernet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/rece= ive delays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote discovery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just login to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly, or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating function= ality which is better done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-trill-oam should be taken out.
[Answer] Your unders= tanding is incorrect. TTM  is utilized not for counters but to ensure that specific flows are reaching specifc devices. This is included as part of feedback received from the WG in Tapei. This is an adaptation of Data Driven= CFM .

5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is probab= ly done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "show l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB.



[Answer] How do you k= now which device to login to use show commands/

6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being able to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic MIB walk case.
[Answer] How do you k= now which device is having the MAC so you can do the walk ?

7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM draft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI.
[Answer] Firstly how= do you know which device to login to use CLI. Secondly, anything that improve usability and experience of users can be always included.

8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this draft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags).
[Answer] Terminology= can be changed to include what is defined in VXLAN, NVGRE etc. The case in point is when there are other overlay technologies how to identify different= address association. Certain VM may use the same MAC address to associate with different VXLAN segments.

best,
Sunny Rajagopalan
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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi, A draft TRILL WG agenda for the Paris meeting has been posted to the meeting materials page https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html We are scheduled for a session first thing Monday morning and a session about mid-day Friday. This is certainly not optimal but it is a very crowded meeting and we were unable to move the Friday meeting earlier. We could force everything to fit in the Monday session, which is 2 1/2 hours, by cutting the time available for items but it is not clear that is the best approach. If you are a presenter and can't make the Friday session or can't make the Monday session and haven't told me yet, please send me an email. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 14 21:38:19 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7925E21F854D for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:38:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tufXFf8UobDq for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7876021F854B for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2F4LQYK007566; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2F4Jq1L007304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:20:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=letracy@cisco.com; l=8465; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331785201; x=1332994801; h=date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=05Z/J5kvxVgpARP8wR/+dylSxsuEs5obWn/uTITFtHc=; b=jenzrLTZtw6aa5/LbhVYW+miJqNdyEQwqAUzyxvhEmktxYNt0hwj3uY+ KFabyooluZyjItSEb5eco9kfJm+mjTJACQzwL/yH731dWjD/y5QjTCFAC GbMdXYT8N50b0twOnGtT4lvKl1YpXxh6QnkjMOqS5DSD0ZFiGItNZumVp A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EALptYU+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbAA5BwO2OIEHggkBAQEDAQEBAQ8BFBMCATEGBRIBCAkPTwYwAQEEAQ0FIodjBAELmyefMIlKZoMogycEiFeFKYdYizCDEoFogwaBPA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,588,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="36106643" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2012 04:19:51 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2F4JpGe002314; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 04:19:51 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-238.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.16]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:19:51 -0700 Received: from 10.21.114.215 ([10.21.114.215]) by xmb-sjc-238.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.16]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 04:19:49 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.32.0.111121 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:19:38 -0700 From: letracy To: Jon Hudson , Radia Perlman , SantoshRajagopalan Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL Thread-Index: Ac0CYtXDhi22Xm+VxEGdj7wnBbXOcQ== In-Reply-To: <1C4D6949-3235-4BB0-B148-C88791DD5CC0@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2012 04:19:51.0671 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDE93070:01CD0262] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: letracy@cisco.com Cc: Donald Eastlake , "rbridge@postel.org" , Anoop Ghanwani Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org I think one drawback to the stronger RPF check is that Rbridges will be required to maintain more state. In the best cases, Rbridges will be required to maintain a 6 byte source MAC address per RPF. In some other cases, the stronger check will require additional RPF checks as well. Consider a case such as: A - B - C | U - V - W = o - X - Y - Z Where o is a LAN link and W has two parallel links into the LAN o with unique MAC addresses on each link. In this case, W is allowed to loadsplit among the two links and Rbridges A and X are required by RFC6325 to accept traffic coming from either of W's ports. This will mean bridges X and A are required to maintain two RPF entries each for Rbridges U, V and W (One RPF check accepting (W, SMAC1) and one accepting (W, SMAC2), etc...). Thus, the number of RPF checks required in the network becomes proportional to the number of Rbridge ports connected to LAN links as well as to the number of Rbridges in the network. In larger networks this could explode in terms of scale and complexity. Considering that the problem case is transient, rare, and only results in duplicate packets (as opposed to loops) - I'd like to suggest that the stronger check be made optional. Thanks, Leonard Tracy On 3/9/12 1:55 PM, "Jon Hudson" wrote: > > I agree! Both stronger & easier to read/understand. > > Very nice Santosh! > > On Mar 9, 2012, at 7:57 AM, Radia Perlman wrote: > >> Ah. Yes, thank you for that explanation, Donald. Santosh is indeed >> correct, and it also makes the spec easier to read, which is an >> additional plus. >> >> Radia >> >> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >>> Hi Anoop, >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Anoop Ghanwani >>> wrote: >>>> The tree adjacency check already accounts for this. >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.6.2.5 >>>> >>>>>> >>>> The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a >>>> tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nickname >>>> on the port where the frame was received. >>>>>> >>>> >>>> This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check. >>> >>> Ahhh, but this is not quite a strong as what Santosh is suggesting. >>> The subtle weakness is that "adjacency" has no directionality. >>> >>> RFC 6325 currently specifies this part of the RPFC as two separate checks: >>> 1. Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, arrival port) an allowed triplet according >>> to the current topology and tree? >>> 2. Is ( tree, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed triplet according to >>> the current topology and tree? >>> >>> What Santosh is suggesting, which would be just a little stronger and >>> arguably simpler, is equivalent to replacing this with one test: >>> -- Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed quadruplet? >>> >>> This is stronger because, on a multi-access link, one Outer.MacSA may >>> only be allowed on frames from the ingress and other Outer.MacSA may >>> only only be allowed on frames ingressed elsewhere. >>> >>> I think some existing silicon may already use this combined RPFC test... >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Donald >>> ============================= >>> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >>> d3e3e3@gmail.com >>> >>>> Anoop >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan >>>> wrote: >>>>> It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL may not >>>>> be >>>>> strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during network >>>>> transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modification >>>>> of >>>>> the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases. >>>>> >>>>> The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into the >>>>> RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link, >>>>> specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a >>>>> multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the >>>>> physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the >>>>> outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept >>>>> packets from X along (outer_smac, port)". >>>>> >>>>> Consider this network: >>>>> >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>>> All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D are >>>>> connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseudonode >>>>> "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (the >>>>> choice of root is unimportant here). >>>>> The resulting tree looks like: >>>>> >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>>> >>>>> Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet >>>>> network. So the network looks like this: >>>>> ________ >>>>> | | >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>>> >>>>> Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except the >>>>> B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out from F >>>>> will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another copy >>>>> into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D. >>>>> >>>>> However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on >>>>> their >>>>> LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet >>>>> done >>>>> so. >>>>> This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be >>>>> part >>>>> of the tree. >>>>> >>>>> So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A into >>>>> the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on >>>>> this >>>>> tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted. D >>>>> is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also >>>>> passes. >>>>> >>>>> However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF check >>>>> still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the >>>>> packet >>>>> along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one more >>>>> packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D in >>>>> the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to the CE >>>>> network is ok for receiving packets from A. >>>>> >>>>> So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSPs >>>>> and >>>>> program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevant here >>>>> because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native CE >>>>> frames. >>>>> >>>>> In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because the >>>>> rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port, >>>>> smac) >>>>> will pass for packets from both A and C. >>>>> >>>>> The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you >>>>> replace the current RPF check which looks like this: >>>>> {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port} >>>>> >>>>> with a modified check which looks like this: >>>>> >>>>> {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac} >>>>> >>>>> This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they were >>>>> sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently >>>>> separate adjacency and RPF checks. >>>>> >>>>> Thoughts? >>>>> -- >>>>> Sunny Rajagopalan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> rbridge mailing list >>>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 15 14:43:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B62521F85CC for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s4CnrYeAKRkJ for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E8521F85C4 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2FLTa0l019848; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (e34.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.152]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2FLTBXj019796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e34.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:28:32 -0600 Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by d03dlp02.boulder.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205383E40036; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:28:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (d03av03.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.169]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2FLSVIv188038; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:28:31 -0600 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2FLSUV5031562; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:28:31 -0600 Received: from d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.18]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2FLSUpG031485; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:28:30 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: <1C4D6949-3235-4BB0-B148-C88791DD5CC0@gmail.com> To: letracy MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 9CD56F5C:AD41ACAC-872579C2:00744680; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: From: Santosh Rajagopalan Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:28:42 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM127/03/M/IBM(Release 8.5.1FP2|March 17, 2010) at 03/15/2012 15:28:30, Serialize complete at 03/15/2012 15:28:30 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12031521-1780-0000-0000-000003FFAE3D X-IBM-ISS-SpamDetectors: X-IBM-ISS-DetailInfo: BY=3.00000256; HX=3.00000185; KW=3.00000007; PH=3.00000001; SC=3.00000001; SDB=6.00122330; UDB=6.00029426; UTC=2012-03-15 21:29:09 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , Anoop Ghanwani , Radia Perlman , rbridge-bounces@postel.org, Donald Eastlake , Jon Hudson Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1602494968==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1602494968== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 007606FB882579C2_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 007606FB882579C2_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I think that a similar argument can be made for the current RPF check as well - it costs us table space and helps us in rare, transient cases. If you decide that the RPF check is worthwhile having in its current form, I think you can make the case that it's worthwhile having in the expanded form as well. Because really, the new form of the RPF check says the same thing as the current form - it's just that in multi-access links you need to qualify the "allowed link" a little more strongly. Also, I'm not sure if its absence could lead to loops - duplicates were just the first case I thought of. Note that in the case you illustrated below (where rbridges have multiple links to the CE network) you would need to have multiple RPF entries anyway, even without the new expanded check. For example, the rbridge W would need "allow (A, link_1)" in addition to "allow (A, link_2)". Of course, there's no denying that adding the mac address there will bring in additional memory costs. -- Sunny Rajagopalan From: letracy To: Jon Hudson , Radia Perlman , Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS Cc: Donald Eastlake , "rbridge@postel.org" , Anoop Ghanwani Date: 03/14/2012 09:37 PM Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org I think one drawback to the stronger RPF check is that Rbridges will be required to maintain more state. In the best cases, Rbridges will be required to maintain a 6 byte source MAC address per RPF. In some other cases, the stronger check will require additional RPF checks as well. Consider a case such as: A - B - C | U - V - W = o - X - Y - Z Where o is a LAN link and W has two parallel links into the LAN o with unique MAC addresses on each link. In this case, W is allowed to loadsplit among the two links and Rbridges A and X are required by RFC6325 to accept traffic coming from either of W's ports. This will mean bridges X and A are required to maintain two RPF entries each for Rbridges U, V and W (One RPF check accepting (W, SMAC1) and one accepting (W, SMAC2), etc...). Thus, the number of RPF checks required in the network becomes proportional to the number of Rbridge ports connected to LAN links as well as to the number of Rbridges in the network. In larger networks this could explode in terms of scale and complexity. Considering that the problem case is transient, rare, and only results in duplicate packets (as opposed to loops) - I'd like to suggest that the stronger check be made optional. Thanks, Leonard Tracy On 3/9/12 1:55 PM, "Jon Hudson" wrote: > > I agree! Both stronger & easier to read/understand. > > Very nice Santosh! > > On Mar 9, 2012, at 7:57 AM, Radia Perlman wrote: > >> Ah. Yes, thank you for that explanation, Donald. Santosh is indeed >> correct, and it also makes the spec easier to read, which is an >> additional plus. >> >> Radia >> >> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: >>> Hi Anoop, >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Anoop Ghanwani >>> wrote: >>>> The tree adjacency check already accounts for this. >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.6.2.5 >>>> >>>>>> >>>> The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a >>>> tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nickname >>>> on the port where the frame was received. >>>>>> >>>> >>>> This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check. >>> >>> Ahhh, but this is not quite a strong as what Santosh is suggesting. >>> The subtle weakness is that "adjacency" has no directionality. >>> >>> RFC 6325 currently specifies this part of the RPFC as two separate checks: >>> 1. Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, arrival port) an allowed triplet according >>> to the current topology and tree? >>> 2. Is ( tree, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed triplet according to >>> the current topology and tree? >>> >>> What Santosh is suggesting, which would be just a little stronger and >>> arguably simpler, is equivalent to replacing this with one test: >>> -- Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed quadruplet? >>> >>> This is stronger because, on a multi-access link, one Outer.MacSA may >>> only be allowed on frames from the ingress and other Outer.MacSA may >>> only only be allowed on frames ingressed elsewhere. >>> >>> I think some existing silicon may already use this combined RPFC test... >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Donald >>> ============================= >>> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >>> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA >>> d3e3e3@gmail.com >>> >>>> Anoop >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan >>>> wrote: >>>>> It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL may not >>>>> be >>>>> strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during network >>>>> transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modification >>>>> of >>>>> the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases. >>>>> >>>>> The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into the >>>>> RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link, >>>>> specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a >>>>> multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the >>>>> physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the >>>>> outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept >>>>> packets from X along (outer_smac, port)". >>>>> >>>>> Consider this network: >>>>> >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>>> All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D are >>>>> connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseudonode >>>>> "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (the >>>>> choice of root is unimportant here). >>>>> The resulting tree looks like: >>>>> >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>>> >>>>> Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet >>>>> network. So the network looks like this: >>>>> ________ >>>>> | | >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D >>>>> >>>>> Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except the >>>>> B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out from F >>>>> will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another copy >>>>> into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D. >>>>> >>>>> However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on >>>>> their >>>>> LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet >>>>> done >>>>> so. >>>>> This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be >>>>> part >>>>> of the tree. >>>>> >>>>> So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A into >>>>> the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on >>>>> this >>>>> tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted. D >>>>> is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also >>>>> passes. >>>>> >>>>> However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF check >>>>> still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the >>>>> packet >>>>> along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one more >>>>> packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D in >>>>> the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to the CE >>>>> network is ok for receiving packets from A. >>>>> >>>>> So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSPs >>>>> and >>>>> program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevant here >>>>> because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native CE >>>>> frames. >>>>> >>>>> In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because the >>>>> rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port, >>>>> smac) >>>>> will pass for packets from both A and C. >>>>> >>>>> The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you >>>>> replace the current RPF check which looks like this: >>>>> {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port} >>>>> >>>>> with a modified check which looks like this: >>>>> >>>>> {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac} >>>>> >>>>> This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they were >>>>> sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently >>>>> separate adjacency and RPF checks. >>>>> >>>>> Thoughts? >>>>> -- >>>>> Sunny Rajagopalan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> rbridge mailing list >>>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --=_alternative 007606FB882579C2_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I think that a similar argument can be made for the current RPF check as well - it costs us table space and helps us in rare, transient cases. If you decide that the RPF check is worthwhile having in its current form, I think you can make the case that it's worthwhile having in the expanded form as well.

Because really, the new form of the RPF check says the same thing as the current form - it's just that in multi-access links you need to qualify the "allowed link" a little more strongly. Also, I'm not sure if its absence could lead to loops - duplicates were just the first case I thought of.

Note that in the case you illustrated below (where rbridges have multiple links to the CE network) you would need to have multiple RPF entries anyway, even without the new expanded check. For example, the rbridge W would need "allow (A, link_1)" in addition to "allow (A, link_2)". Of course, there's no denying that adding the mac address there will bring in additional memory costs.

--
Sunny Rajagopalan




From:        letracy <letracy@cisco.com>
To:        Jon Hudson <jon.hudson@gmail.com>, Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>, Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS
Cc:        Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date:        03/14/2012 09:37 PM
Subject:        Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL
Sent by:        rbridge-bounces@postel.org





I think one drawback to the stronger RPF check is that Rbridges will be
required to maintain more state.  In the best cases, Rbridges will be
required to maintain a 6 byte source MAC address per RPF.  In some other
cases, the stronger check will require additional RPF checks as well.

Consider a case such as:

            A - B - C
            |
U - V - W = o - X - Y - Z

Where o is a LAN link and W has two parallel links into the LAN o with
unique MAC addresses on each link.

In this case, W is allowed to loadsplit among the two links and Rbridges
A and X are required by RFC6325 to accept traffic coming from either of
W's ports.  This will mean bridges X and A are required to maintain two
RPF entries each for Rbridges U, V and W (One RPF check accepting (W, SMAC1)
and one accepting (W, SMAC2), etc...).  Thus, the number of RPF checks
required in the network becomes proportional to the number of Rbridge ports
connected to LAN links as well as to the number of Rbridges in the network.
In larger networks this could explode in terms of scale and complexity.

Considering that the problem case is transient, rare, and only results in
duplicate packets (as opposed to loops) - I'd like to suggest that the
stronger check be made optional.

Thanks,
Leonard Tracy


On 3/9/12 1:55 PM, "Jon Hudson" <jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I agree! Both stronger & easier to read/understand.
>
> Very nice Santosh!
>
> On Mar 9, 2012, at 7:57 AM, Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah.  Yes, thank you for that explanation, Donald.  Santosh is indeed
>> correct, and it also makes the spec easier to read, which is an
>> additional plus.
>>
>> Radia
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>> The tree adjacency check already accounts for this.
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.6.2.5
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>   The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a
>>>>   tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nickname
>>>>   on the port where the frame was received.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check.
>>>
>>> Ahhh, but this is not quite a strong as what Santosh is suggesting.
>>> The subtle weakness is that "adjacency" has no directionality.
>>>
>>> RFC 6325 currently specifies this part of the RPFC as two separate checks:
>>>  1. Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, arrival port) an allowed triplet according
>>> to the current topology and tree?
>>>  2. Is ( tree, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed triplet according to
>>> the current topology and tree?
>>>
>>> What Santosh is suggesting, which would be just a little stronger and
>>> arguably simpler, is equivalent to replacing this with one test:
>>>  -- Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed quadruplet?
>>>
>>> This is stronger because, on a multi-access link, one Outer.MacSA may
>>> only be allowed on frames from the ingress and other Outer.MacSA may
>>> only only be allowed on frames ingressed elsewhere.
>>>
>>> I think some existing silicon may already use this combined RPFC test...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Donald
>>> =============================
>>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>>
>>>> Anoop
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan
>>>> <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>>>> It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL may not
>>>>> be
>>>>> strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during network
>>>>> transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modification
>>>>> of
>>>>> the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built into the
>>>>> RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link,
>>>>> specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a
>>>>> multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the
>>>>> physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the
>>>>> outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept
>>>>> packets from X along (outer_smac, port)".
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider this network:
>>>>>
>>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D
>>>>> All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D are
>>>>> connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseudonode
>>>>> "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (the
>>>>> choice of root is unimportant here).
>>>>> The resulting tree looks like:
>>>>>
>>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D
>>>>>
>>>>> Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet
>>>>> network. So the network looks like this:
>>>>> ________
>>>>> | |
>>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except the
>>>>> B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out from F
>>>>> will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another copy
>>>>> into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on
>>>>> their
>>>>> LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet
>>>>> done
>>>>> so.
>>>>> This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be
>>>>> part
>>>>> of the tree.
>>>>>
>>>>> So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A into
>>>>> the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on
>>>>> this
>>>>> tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted. D
>>>>> is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also
>>>>> passes.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF check
>>>>> still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the
>>>>> packet
>>>>> along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one more
>>>>> packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D in
>>>>> the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to the CE
>>>>> network is ok for receiving packets from A.
>>>>>
>>>>> So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSPs
>>>>> and
>>>>> program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevant here
>>>>> because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native CE
>>>>> frames.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, because the
>>>>> rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port,
>>>>> smac)
>>>>> will pass for packets from both A and C.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you
>>>>> replace the current RPF check which looks like this:
>>>>> {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port}
>>>>>
>>>>> with a modified check which looks like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac}
>>>>>
>>>>> This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they were
>>>>> sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently
>>>>> separate adjacency and RPF checks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sunny Rajagopalan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> rbridge mailing list
>>>>> rbridge@postel.org
>>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> rbridge mailing list
>>>> rbridge@postel.org
>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rbridge mailing list
>>> rbridge@postel.org
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rbridge mailing list
>> rbridge@postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
>
> _______________________________________________
> rbridge mailing list
> rbridge@postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
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L2ZvbnQ+PC90dD4NCjxicj4NCg== --=_alternative 0077E289882579C2_=-- --===============1025875312== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1025875312==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 15 15:29:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C0E121F8603 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:29:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.377 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.377 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.224, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LUOmKBEiYLtv for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448D521F8602 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2FLsfcf024526; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f52.google.com (mail-yw0-f52.google.com [209.85.213.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2FLsAG6024459 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhpp61 with SMTP id p61so5244375yhp.39 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=I5XRc1gDGs7vve9G8umAHoD9G4qpno5c5xNQkrEx4yQ=; b=Uc9An9IxOzReJaey8a7J0FdgdvmdDD0Fjj6+KVLDohLqbwa+orBb+et+8Nz8eZ4Gtw IWhCYZyc8MJuCnIGNcE5nggx8FTkpZSTKDNXgHh69KEhjrGeR1fImJhTiep8IP8GP4lN NxGQ6OXvxPDOJJ7bSx62cdeFF5ifJkypZZ8nUEDc9YMSgmVgRMjG4/S5uFs3vQQUxvyw e8NsGufroN2FMTvBuIM5eMQ2Ob/041zKgGpr0sfZPjGrPKII7iI227gdBIaQA/ulxtCY puTE5wqQN50T8xIG7c3mRYK19w+Yz4ZoX+uzzJptCgrAoP2alshChfHce8gIeLR6JNLx iVVg== Received: by 10.182.114.3 with SMTP id jc3mr368654obb.18.1331848449911; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.173] ([12.207.18.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v10sm2995725obb.4.2012.03.15.14.54.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:08 -0700 (PDT) References: <1C4D6949-3235-4BB0-B148-C88791DD5CC0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B176) From: Sam Aldrin Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:54:04 -0700 To: Santosh Rajagopalan X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , Anoop Ghanwani , Radia Perlman , Donald Eastlake , "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" , letracy , Jon Hudson Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1656561337==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1656561337== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B8A1DA82-3B7C-48CD-B190-5AEAB71D8A28 --Apple-Mail-B8A1DA82-3B7C-48CD-B190-5AEAB71D8A28 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Having read both sides of the story, two points I hear are 1. There is a scenario or corner case, where existing rpf check doesn't sati= sfy the needs. 2. Because the new proposal requires SMAC to be maintained, the size of tabl= es exponentially increases. IMO, weight given to 1and 2 could vary depending on vendor and whom you talk= to. If stronger rpf check is needed, a solution without increasing the comp= lexity in table size etc should be proposed. If that is something not going t= o be achieved, it should be left optional, till something is identified. My 2 cents Sam Sent from my iPhone On Mar 15, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan wrote: > I think that a similar argument can be made for the current RPF check as w= ell - it costs us table space and helps us in rare, transient cases. If you d= ecide that the RPF check is worthwhile having in its current form, I think y= ou can make the case that it's worthwhile having in the expanded form as wel= l.=20 >=20 > Because really, the new form of the RPF check says the same thing as the c= urrent form - it's just that in multi-access links you need to qualify the "= allowed link" a little more strongly. Also, I'm not sure if its absence coul= d lead to loops - duplicates were just the first case I thought of.=20 >=20 > Note that in the case you illustrated below (where rbridges have multiple l= inks to the CE network) you would need to have multiple RPF entries anyway, e= ven without the new expanded check. For example, the rbridge W would need "a= llow (A, link_1)" in addition to "allow (A, link_2)". Of course, there's no d= enying that adding the mac address there will bring in additional memory cos= ts.=20 >=20 > --=20 > Sunny Rajagopalan=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: letracy =20 > To: Jon Hudson , Radia Perlman , Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS=20 > Cc: Donald Eastlake , "rbridge@postel.org" , Anoop Ghanwani =20 > Date: 03/14/2012 09:37 PM=20 > Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL=20 > Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I think one drawback to the stronger RPF check is that Rbridges will be > required to maintain more state. In the best cases, Rbridges will be > required to maintain a 6 byte source MAC address per RPF. In some other > cases, the stronger check will require additional RPF checks as well. >=20 > Consider a case such as: >=20 > A - B - C > | > U - V - W =3D o - X - Y - Z >=20 > Where o is a LAN link and W has two parallel links into the LAN o with > unique MAC addresses on each link. >=20 > In this case, W is allowed to loadsplit among the two links and Rbridges > A and X are required by RFC6325 to accept traffic coming from either of > W's ports. This will mean bridges X and A are required to maintain two > RPF entries each for Rbridges U, V and W (One RPF check accepting (W, SMAC= 1) > and one accepting (W, SMAC2), etc...). Thus, the number of RPF checks > required in the network becomes proportional to the number of Rbridge port= s > connected to LAN links as well as to the number of Rbridges in the network= . > In larger networks this could explode in terms of scale and complexity. >=20 > Considering that the problem case is transient, rare, and only results in > duplicate packets (as opposed to loops) - I'd like to suggest that the > stronger check be made optional. >=20 > Thanks, > Leonard Tracy >=20 >=20 > On 3/9/12 1:55 PM, "Jon Hudson" wrote: >=20 > >=20 > > I agree! Both stronger & easier to read/understand. > >=20 > > Very nice Santosh! > >=20 > > On Mar 9, 2012, at 7:57 AM, Radia Perlman wrote= : > >=20 > >> Ah. Yes, thank you for that explanation, Donald. Santosh is indeed > >> correct, and it also makes the spec easier to read, which is an > >> additional plus. > >>=20 > >> Radia > >>=20 > >> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Donald Eastlake wrot= e: > >>> Hi Anoop, > >>>=20 > >>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Anoop Ghanwani = > >>> wrote: > >>>> The tree adjacency check already accounts for this. > >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.6.2.5 > >>>>=20 > >>>>>>=20 > >>>> The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a > >>>> tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nicknam= e > >>>> on the port where the frame was received. > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check. > >>>=20 > >>> Ahhh, but this is not quite a strong as what Santosh is suggesting. > >>> The subtle weakness is that "adjacency" has no directionality. > >>>=20 > >>> RFC 6325 currently specifies this part of the RPFC as two separate che= cks: > >>> 1. Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, arrival port) an allowed triplet according= > >>> to the current topology and tree? > >>> 2. Is ( tree, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed triplet according to= > >>> the current topology and tree? > >>>=20 > >>> What Santosh is suggesting, which would be just a little stronger and > >>> arguably simpler, is equivalent to replacing this with one test: > >>> -- Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed quadrup= let? > >>>=20 > >>> This is stronger because, on a multi-access link, one Outer.MacSA may > >>> only be allowed on frames from the ingress and other Outer.MacSA may > >>> only only be allowed on frames ingressed elsewhere. > >>>=20 > >>> I think some existing silicon may already use this combined RPFC test.= .. > >>>=20 > >>> Thanks, > >>> Donald > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > >>> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > >>> d3e3e3@gmail.com > >>>=20 > >>>> Anoop > >>>>=20 > >>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> It appears the the multidestination frame checks present in TRILL ma= y not > >>>>> be > >>>>> strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during networ= k > >>>>> transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modifica= tion > >>>>> of > >>>>> the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> The root problem is that there's a notion of directionality built in= to the > >>>>> RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p li= nk, > >>>>> specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, i= n a > >>>>> multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the= > >>>>> physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the= > >>>>> outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "acce= pt > >>>>> packets from X along (outer_smac, port)". > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Consider this network: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D > >>>>> All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D= are > >>>>> connected over a classical ethernet network (represented by the pseu= donode > >>>>> "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tre= e (the > >>>>> choice of root is unimportant here). > >>>>> The resulting tree looks like: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ether= net > >>>>> network. So the network looks like this: > >>>>> ________ > >>>>> | | > >>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links exce= pt the > >>>>> B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out f= rom F > >>>>> will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another= copy > >>>>> into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted o= n > >>>>> their > >>>>> LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not y= et > >>>>> done > >>>>> so. > >>>>> This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still= be > >>>>> part > >>>>> of the tree. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A= into > >>>>> the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets o= n > >>>>> this > >>>>> tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accep= ted. D > >>>>> is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacency check also > >>>>> passes. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF c= heck > >>>>> still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the= > >>>>> packet > >>>>> along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one m= ore > >>>>> packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to= D in > >>>>> the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because D's link to t= he CE > >>>>> network is ok for receiving packets from A. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their L= SPs > >>>>> and > >>>>> program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevan= t here > >>>>> because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets, not native C= E > >>>>> frames. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't help, becaus= e the > >>>>> rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (por= t, > >>>>> smac) > >>>>> will pass for packets from both A and C. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if y= ou > >>>>> replace the current RPF check which looks like this: > >>>>> {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port} > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> with a modified check which looks like this: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_smac} > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they w= ere > >>>>> sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currentl= y > >>>>> separate adjacency and RPF checks. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Thoughts? > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Sunny Rajagopalan > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> rbridge mailing list > >>>>> rbridge@postel.org > >>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > >>>>>=20 > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> rbridge mailing list > >>>> rbridge@postel.org > >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > >>>=20 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> rbridge mailing list > >>> rbridge@postel.org > >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > >>=20 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rbridge mailing list > >> rbridge@postel.org > >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > rbridge mailing list > > rbridge@postel.org > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail-B8A1DA82-3B7C-48CD-B190-5AEAB71D8A28 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Having read both sides of t= he story, two points I hear are
1. There is a scenario or corner c= ase, where existing rpf check doesn't satisfy the needs.
2. Becaus= e the new proposal requires SMAC to be maintained, the size of tables expone= ntially increases.

IMO, weight given to 1and 2 coul= d vary depending on vendor and whom you talk to. If stronger rpf check is ne= eded, a solution without increasing the complexity in table size etc should b= e proposed. If that is something not going to be achieved, it should be left= optional, till something is identified.

My 2 cents=
Sam

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 20= 12, at 2:28 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com> wrote:

I th= ink that a similar argument can be made for the current RPF check as well - it costs us table space and helps us in rare, transient cases. If you decide that the RPF check is worthwhile having in its current form, I think you can make the case that it's worthwhi= le having in the expanded form as well.

Because really, the new form of the= RPF check says the same thing as the current form - it's just that in multi-= access links you need to qualify the "allowed link" a little more strongly. Also, I'm not sure if its absence could lead to loops - duplicates were just the first case I thought of.

Note that in the case you illustrat= ed below (where rbridges have multiple links to the CE network) you would need to have multiple RPF entries anyway, even without the new expanded check. For example, the rbridge W would need "allow (A, link_1)" in addition to "allow (A, link_2)". Of course, there's no denying that adding the mac address there will bring in additional memory costs.

--
Sunny Rajagopalan




From:   &nbs= p;    letracy <letracy@cisco.com>
To:    =    Jon Hudson <jon.hudson@gmail.com>, Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gma= il.com>, Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS
Cc:    =    Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date:   &nbs= p;    03/14/2012 09:37 PM=
Subject:   &= nbsp;    Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL
Sent by:   &= nbsp;    rbridge-bounces@postel.org





I think one drawback to the stronger RPF check is that Rbridges will be
required to maintain more state.  In the best cases, Rbridges will be
required to maintain a 6 byte source MAC address per RPF.  In some other
cases, the stronger check will require additional RPF checks as well.

Consider a case such as:

            A - B - C
            |
U - V - W =3D o - X - Y - Z

Where o is a LAN link and W has two parallel links into the LAN o with
unique MAC addresses on each link.

In this case, W is allowed to loadsplit among the two links and Rbridges
= A and X are required by RFC6325 to accept traffic coming from either of
W's ports.  This will mean bridges X and A are required to maintain two
RPF entries each for Rbridges U, V and W (One RPF check accepting (W, SMAC1)=
and one accepting (W, SMAC2), etc...).  Thus, the number of RPF checks<= br> required in the network becomes proportional to the number of Rbridge ports<= br> connected to LAN links as well as to the number of Rbridges in the network.<= br> In larger networks this could explode in terms of scale and complexity.

Considering that the problem case is transient, rare, and only results in
duplicate packets (as opposed to loops) - I'd like to suggest that the
stronger check be made optional.

Thanks,
Leonard Tracy


On 3/9/12 1:55 PM, "Jon Hudson" <= jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I agree! Both stronger & easier to read/understand.
>
> Very nice Santosh!
>
> On Mar 9, 2012, at 7:57 AM, Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah.  Yes, thank you for that explanation, Donald.  Santos= h is indeed
>> correct, and it also makes the spec easier to read, which is an
= >> additional plus.
>>
>> Radia
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 6:44 AM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Anoop,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>> The tree adjacency check already accounts for this.
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#sect= ion-4.6.2.5
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>   The Outer.MacSA is checked and the frame discarded if it is not a
>>>>   tree adjacency for the tree indicated by the egress RBridge nickname
>>>>   on the port where the frame was received.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is done in addition to the port-based RPF check.
>>>
>>> Ahhh, but this is not quite a strong as what Santosh is suggest= ing.
>>> The subtle weakness is that "adjacency" has no directionality.<= br> >>>
>>> RFC 6325 currently specifies this part of the RPFC as two separate checks:
>>>  1. Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, arrival port) an allowed triplet according
>>> to the current topology and tree?
>>>  2. Is ( tree, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed triplet according to
>>> the current topology and tree?
>>>
>>> What Santosh is suggesting, which would be just a little strong= er and
>>> arguably simpler, is equivalent to replacing this with one test:
>>>  -- Is ( tree, Outer.MacSA, ingress, arrival port ) an allowed quadruplet?
>>>
>>> This is stronger because, on a multi-access link, one Outer.Mac= SA may
>>> only be allowed on frames from the ingress and other Outer.MacS= A may
>>> only only be allowed on frames ingressed elsewhere.
>>>
>>> I think some existing silicon may already use this combined RPFC test...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Donald
>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com<= br> >>>
>>>> Anoop
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan
>>>> <sunny.r= ajagopalan@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>>>> It appears the the multidestination frame checks presen= t in TRILL may not
>>>>> be
>>>>> strong enough to cover some cases of packet duplicates during network
>>>>> transition scenarios. In this email, I'm going to suggest a modification
>>>>> of
>>>>> the TRILL RPF check to cover these cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> The root problem is that there's a notion of directiona= lity built into the
>>>>> RPF concept ("accept packets from X along this vector"). In a p2p link,
>>>>> specifying the port alone uniquely qualifies that vector. However, in a
>>>>> multiaccess link, there are many "links/adjacencies" overlaid on the
>>>>> physical link. To identify one of them, you need to specify both the
>>>>> outer_smac *and* the port. So the RPF check should actually be "accept
>>>>> packets from X along (outer_smac, port)".
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider this network:
>>>>>
>>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D
>>>>> All the links except the link between C and D are p2p links. C and D are
>>>>> connected over a classical ethernet network (represente= d by the pseudonode
>>>>> "o"). Let's say D gets picked as the root for a multidestination tree (the
>>>>> choice of root is unimportant here).
>>>>> The resulting tree looks like:
>>>>>
>>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D
>>>>>
>>>>> Now lets say that a link comes up from A to the same classical ethernet
>>>>> network. So the network looks like this:
>>>>> ________
>>>>> | |
>>>>> F--A--B--C--o--D
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's say the resulting tree in steady state includes all links except the
>>>>> B-C link. After the network has converged, a packet that starts out from F
>>>>> will go F->A, where A will send one copy to the A-B link and another copy
>>>>> into the CE network, from where it will be received by C and D.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, lets consider a transition stage where A and D have acted on
>>>>> their
>>>>> LSPs and programmed their forwarding plane, while B and C have not yet
>>>>> done
>>>>> so.
>>>>> This means that B and C both consider the link between them to still be
>>>>> part
>>>>> of the tree.
>>>>>
>>>>> So a packet that starts out from F and reaches A will be copied by A into
>>>>> the A-B link and the A-o link. D's RPF check says to accept packets on
>>>>> this
>>>>> tree coming from F over its link to the CE network, so it gets accepted. D
>>>>> is also adjacent to A on the tree, so the tree adjacenc= y check also
>>>>> passes.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the packet that gets to B gets sent out by B to C. C's RPF check
>>>>> still has the old state, and it thinks the packet is ok. C sends the
>>>>> packet
>>>>> along the old tree, which is towards the CE network. D receives one more
>>>>> packet, but the tree adjacency check passes because C is adjacent to D in
>>>>> the new tree as well. The RPF check also passes because= D's link to the CE
>>>>> network is ok for receiving packets from A.
>>>>>
>>>>> So now D gets duplicates of every packet until B and C act on their LSPs
>>>>> and
>>>>> program their hardware tables. The AF state is (I believe) irrelevant here
>>>>> because we're talking about TRILL encapsulated packets,= not native CE
>>>>> frames.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the example above, the adjacency check alone doesn't= help, because the
>>>>> rbridge D has adjacencies to both A & C on the tree. A check on (port,
>>>>> smac)
>>>>> will pass for packets from both A and C.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only check which can stop this from happening, I believe, is if you
>>>>> replace the current RPF check which looks like this: >>>>> {tree_id, source_rbridge}->{allowed_port}
>>>>>
>>>>> with a modified check which looks like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> {tree_id, rbridge}->{allowed_port, allowed_outer_sma= c}
>>>>>
>>>>> This will make sure that packets will be accepted by D only if they were
>>>>> sent by A. This combined check can be a replacement for the currently
>>>>> separate adjacency and RPF checks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sunny Rajagopalan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> rbridge mailing list
>>>>> rbridge@postel.or= g
>>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/l= istinfo/rbridge
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> rbridge mailing list
>>>> rbridge@postel.org
>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listi= nfo/rbridge
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rbridge mailing list
>>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/= rbridge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rbridge mailing list
>> rbridge@postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbri= dge
>
> _______________________________________________
> rbridge mailing list
> rbridge@postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<= /font>

_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
<= tt>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
________________= _______________________________
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= --Apple-Mail-B8A1DA82-3B7C-48CD-B190-5AEAB71D8A28-- --===============1656561337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1656561337==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 15 15:40:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F7021E803D for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:40:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.394, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-BEN83SWPig for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A5721E803C for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2FM9j7c027547; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f180.google.com (mail-gy0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2FM8tR0027112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ghbz12 with SMTP id z12so5343463ghb.39 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:08:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=beD87V1xOmGgkFb/eQkF/5AvJDtruYPBrLp3J6Na/c4=; b=m46eB1T1h6Zd/F8zRoXhPd/Ikc9ucR3voD7LmKIilHt7DKRZqmrmM3LSNE4yCx0ov4 8LZF76Aqe5EcknbamjAalJejfd5Y0+eP8S5m/bxpmpxlu9cYFW2p/NAcMb//127kupZz 147fD1WWvu6PeJFPmXvS9BVzVGEFop9QI25eueM9emK/mNPg/xgn7Htpp0DB2luajWLX LacVJaPBPZ/sTb3ulmmsssNnI9j9pBf3qHVaxK4hxrfHeleYM456ZN/sQAgZ1smS8gzL +iDOHJF0RQ+BvSsqjPjpHfW09uppGpcdr/ACbSM32FnGZwpW+F4CwIhNsc84bh6Rq2al cbeQ== Received: by 10.68.130.163 with SMTP id of3mr1154352pbb.85.1331849334707; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.173] ([12.207.18.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a2sm2745171pbc.16.2012.03.15.15.08.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:08:53 -0700 (PDT) References: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5B5D721@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <1A2726F7-A393-470C-9CA1-B09A5A82292D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <376B28DD-D47B-4D38-A8C2-6073024011F6@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B176) From: Sam Aldrin Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:08:48 -0700 To: Santosh Rajagopalan X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1879261750==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1879261750== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-91D93244-341B-4940-8DF9-357511CA8C83 --Apple-Mail-91D93244-341B-4940-8DF9-357511CA8C83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Inline for my reply. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 15, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan wrote: > I think that we're starting to talk past each other. May I suggest taking e= ach of the ping/traceroute situations on a case-by-case basis to see how eac= h proposal handles it?=20 Draft is meant for that. If you have specific case where you feel it doesn't= solve it, ask it away. Will be glad to answer them. Last thing we should do= is to make it a design document.=20 >=20 > Basically, can one of the authors summarize the approach in draft-tissa-tr= ill-oam for ping/traceroute to discover:=20 >=20 > a. multidestination unpruned trees.=20 >=20 > b. multidestination pruned trees (per multicast group).=20 >=20 > c. tracing the path taken by a real multicast flow.=20 >=20 > d. unicast path discovery for each multipath=20 >=20 > e. unicast path discovery for real flow.=20 >=20 > I understand this will be a restatement of information that's present in d= raft-tissa-trill-oam, and I apologize for that. I'm looking for a more conci= se presentation of the approach. I am having trouble arranging the informati= on in draft-tissa-trill-oam into the categories I've suggested above. You ca= n use as a template the email I sent out originally starting this thread.=20= We plan to to present at ietf, again. Hopefully we can clarify them, there. A= s the status is still draft,we plan to add more content. We will definitely l= ike to add data, if not present, to care for majority of the scenarios if no= t all. >=20 > As for the discussion below about whether properties should be queried via= SNMP or ICMP OAM, I would simply suggest that we make a choice one way or t= he other. After all, if you add the ability to query mac addresses, DRBs etc= to OAM (and these are already present in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-mib), the= n why stop there? Why not incorporate everything in the SNMP MIB into the IC= MP query framework? Why just stop with mib? > After all, if SNMP is truly "expensive and intensive", why stop with DRB q= ueries? I would then suggest doing away with the trill mib and using icmp as= the query mechanism for all properties. You should ask mib authors that question. If you go by your logic, if snmp i= s present, we should not attempt any with other technology, including net co= nf. > Really, I'm ok either way, but I think we should pick one so that people d= on't end up implementing the same thing twice.=20 The goal is not to duplicate the effort, but to get something operationally u= seful to fulfill oam functions. We feel differently to what you think. It is= not a magic wand trying to make others vanish, rather give additional tools= to manage networks. Sam >=20 > --=20 > Sunny Rajagopalan=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Sam Aldrin =20 > To: Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS=20 > Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" =20 > Date: 03/13/2012 11:59 AM=20 > Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraf= t-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam=20 > Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > See inline for my response to your questions.=20 >=20 > -sam >=20 > Sent from my iPad=20 >=20 > On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan wrote: >=20 > 1) Let's say that you are trying to find all possible paths between two rb= ridges (or liveliness) for a)unicast, b) multicast (unpruned) and c) multica= st (pruned). My proposal below will let you discover all three, without nee= ding IP. Since we're using the rbridge channel ethertype, rbridges can trap= these and prevent them from getting to hosts at the edge. Note that we rely= on unicast forwarding of rbridge channel packets for unicast discovery and m= ulticast forwarding of rbridge channel packets for multicast discovery. This= happens naturally in any trill compliant switch.=20 > %sam - Discovering all of the paths is one part and discovering a path a s= pecific flow takes is another problem. What we are trying to say is channel d= raft does not allow the full flexibility, for Unicast and multicast combinat= ions. As was answered in the original email by Tissa, that multicast pruning= happens with IP VLAN combinations with channel drafts such things are not p= ossible. IP invalid checksum method has danger of triggering invalid packet c= ounters and lead to administration nightmare in hosting providers. We encou= rage you to check this with providers. The same was attempted while doing OA= M for PW's etc, and received a strong no-no.=20 >=20 > 2) Let's say that you already have the information from 1) above, but you a= re trying to figure out which of the many paths you know of will be used for= a particular flow. Now, draft-tissa-trill-oam assumes that the inner ethern= et header is never used for hashing for an IP flow. It assumes that as long a= s you keep the L3 and L4 fields the same as that of the original packet, har= dware will hash to the same values as that from the original flow, even thou= gh the L2 header is different ("6.2. Identification of IP Flows" in draft-t= issa-trill-oam ). I do not think this is a valid assumption to make. The onl= y way to make sure your probe packet takes the same path as a regular packet= is to make it identical to the original packet, all the way including the L= 2 headers. The IP checksum is never used for hashing, so you can invalidate i= t to make sure such packets get dropped at the host. This is the approach I w= as advocating for doing path discovery for a particular flow.=20 > %sam- You have not read section 6..3 of draft-tissa-trill-oam, (Tissa poin= ted this out in his earlier response as well). Section 6.3 is all about usin= g unmodified header. Please read section 6.3. Also this method cannot be use= d for Multicast as answered above will trigger invalid packet count.=20 >=20 > 3) The only hash behavior we can be sure of is that if you give any asic a= non-IP packet, it will do load balancing using the only available fields, w= hich is ethernet smac + dmac. I'm exploiting this property to do path discov= ery (the rbridge ethertype makes asics treat these packets as non-IP). There= fore, if you vary the inner dmac, you can exercise all the available paths. P= aths you discover using this approach are applicable to both IP and non-IP t= raffic, since trill routes are common for both. The only hash assumption I'v= e made is that L2 unknown ethertype (rbridge channel) packets get load bala= nced using the inner dmac/smac. I am making no assumption about the fields u= sed by the hardware for hashing IP packets.=20 > %sam- Are you suggesting ingress node to randomely change the DMAC, Point i= s how you going to randomly change a DMAC and ensure it is taking a specific= path. ?=20 >=20 > 4) People adopting TRILL are more likely to come from an ethernet backgrou= nd than from an MPLS background. For our target audience, it's important for= OAM to look like what they're already familiar with, which is ethernet OAM.= TRILL competes with SPB for the same space, and note that they make a virtu= e of being ethernet OAM compatible. Do many people on this list feel MPLS OA= M is the way to go for us?=20 > %sam - that is your assumption, not necessary that others share the same v= iew. OAM, irrespective of different layers, share common characteristics. Re= using what we learnt in other areas is very useful. Having said that, folks w= ho use OAM do not see how it is implemented, rather it is for the implemento= r who cares for it. If you go by your logic, mpls OAM is not right because i= t uses IP model and mpls is not IP.=20 > Trill as such has evolved by bringing ip and bridging technologies togethe= r, with best of both in each category. Just because one likes Ethernet OAM, d= oesn't mean, anything to do with Ethernet , should always do Ethernet OAM. T= he same argument was used for mpls TP OAM as well. We all know the result.=20= > The proposal here is to use the proven methodology and is working. If it i= s solving problem, why reinvent the wheel all over again. Better make use of= it. If the solution cannot work, then we can discuss about those points, ra= ther than predefining the solution to fit based on what one feels.=20 > As far as Qbp goes, the concept of flows and it's identification is differ= ent. You cannot just compare as is for TRILL. If you want, we can discuss in= that list, to get complete perspective.=20 >=20 > 5) I'm assuming that when operators lay out a network, they have access to= a picture that shows the interconnects (or at least have some management to= ol speaking snmp that does). So when they need to discover the DRB on a mult= i-access link, then can send an SNMP query to the rbridges connected on that= link to get the DRB information. This also goes for finding the mac address= es on a given rbridge, finding the address bindings at a particular rbridge e= tc. All of these "property query" type messages are exactly what SNMP was ma= de for. Some things like finding the vn-tag, vxlan ID, nvgre ID etc are with= in the domain of SNMP but out of scope for TRILL. What is trill-specific abo= ut these?=20 > %sam - if everything is available through Snmp, even performing OAM functi= ons is redundant. Basing a model on Snmp is expensive and intensive. If we g= o by the argument of yours, Ethernet OAM, why do you need to export performa= nce stats in band, when you can query the same using snmp?=20 > My answer is simple. If one feels the need to export data or query data, w= e provide a mechanism without relying solely on SNMP. While we find it usefu= l, everyone may not, that doesn't mean, it is not useful. If a vendor choose= s not to implement, it is fine.=20 >=20 > I haven't responded to any statements below which are based on a misunders= tanding of my original email, please re-review it and I'll be happy to answe= r questions on it.=20 > I do not see what was not understood. You can clarify if something was not= addressed right.=20 >=20 > Sam=20 >=20 > best regards,=20 > Sunny Rajagopalan=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" =20 > To: =20 > Date: 03/08/2012 09:28 AM=20 > Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraf= t-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam=20 > Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Firstly there are few critical high-level points that needed to be stated=20= > =20 > 1. OAM cannot be just detecting Liveliness and Path discovery. It is a= bout Operational aspects of networks which include but not limited to Detect= ing Liveliness, Path Discovery, Fault finding, Fault Isolation etc. OAM is n= ever constrained to ping and trace route. Look at where OAM is heading to i= n MPLS and MPLS-TP.=20 > 2. TRILL cannot be compared 1-1 with Ethernet or IP. TRILL encapsulat= e the user payload with the TRILL header and utilize that to forward using T= RILL header and some parts of user payload (e,g, ECMP and mcast forwarding a= nd pruning). TRILL utilize multiple paths and multi destination tress. In th= at regard it is similar to a tunneling protocol. Most logical comparison of T= RILL OAM is RFC 4379 MPLS OAM If one takes a look at TRILL evolution, multip= athing is the fundamental point of leveraging IP technology within bridging.= If one cannot perform OAM functions to verify all the paths, it is a moot p= oint to develop OAM functions.=20 > 3. What is fundamentally required in TRILL OAM is to have OAM framewo= rk that allows to keep OAM frames as close as possible to data packet. ICMP i= s not utilized as a Ping or Traceroute. Motivation here is to provide such f= ramework in backward compatible manner without introducing additional restri= ctions. As an example, channel draft, which define the framework of OAM chan= nel you are proposing require to use RBridge critical alert bit. RBridges th= at are not supporting that cannot claim it is Channel capable. Additionally,= Channel header follows right after the inner MAC header. This limit includi= ng any L3 frames. It is a common practice to select ECMP based on IP flow in= formation and multicast prune based on IP address. (Please see rfc6326 bis f= or Group IP Address sub-TLV. draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which you ar= e proposing to use do not provide that flexibility. In your response below y= ou have proposed several alternatives but in our mind they do not achieve wh= at is required in OAM. Please see specific responses embedded.=20 > 4. Current suggestion from WG members are to utilize RFC 4379 framewo= rk, as that allow to utilize lots of existing knowledge, implementation and u= ser experience from MPLS OAM.=20 > 5. The embedded message channel is utilized so receiver can identify O= AM frames from data frames and take appropriate actions. Without limiting w= hat payloads can be include in the OAM packet.=20 > 6. You have proposed to use incremental TTL value method for multicas= t with invalid IP checksum. Firstly given the tree depth is different in dif= ferent branches, this will invariably leak packets out. And will lead to inc= rementing IP invalid packet count on end stations. In hosting application th= is may generate unwanted support calls, and something that should not be don= e. In draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 section 6.3 propose to use this exact method o= nly for unciast. Additionally because we can identify OAM frames from real d= ata with TTL expiry due to embedded message channel, we notify that as the l= ast hop bridge and user would not generate N+1 TTL packet.=20 > 7. Below you have proposed to utilize multicast for path trace (trace= route). Whole purpose of OAM is data plane integrity verification. Trace r= oute in particular, used for fault isolation. Multicast use a different forw= arding logic than that of unicast. Use of Multicast to trace route unicat is= not going to achieve what is needed and negate the use of OAM. Additionally= there are several issues such multicast tree may not cover all links in the= campus and so on. Please see specific response embedded in the relevant sec= tion=20 > 8. You are proposing to merge the two drafts and I do not see a commo= nality based on your responses below.=20 > =20 > Please see more specific answers below=20 > =20 > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Be= half Of Santosh Rajagopalan > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM > To: rbridge@postel.org > Cc: Santosh Rajagopalan > Subject: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbrid= ge-oam=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > Hi, > We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-= rbridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls f= or a revised draft with the best ideas from both. >=20 > draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc. The major reas= on for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have s= ome suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam withou= t using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be r= ightly queried from a MIB. >=20 > I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that woul= d be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters= has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNM= P query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look a= t the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they ha= ve a place here. >=20 > Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis: >=20 > 1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (i= t does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connecti= vity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting th= e two. One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the e= cho request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie c= ould be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The resp= onse could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If th= e sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanis= m then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a f= eature borrowed from ethernet OAM.=20 > [Answer] Seem the paragraph is contradicting itself. Firstly you say ping i= s to detect the liveliness. Then you say it can be detected to measure jitte= r, delay etc. If there are 10 ECMP paths and if you can only measure latency= of one it does not give true picture of the information.=20 >=20 > 2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (= you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implementa= tions usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with= appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" p= ath to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enume= rate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow w= ould take are good to have features.=20 > [Answer] This is not a good to have feature, but a MUST, because it is fun= damental to fault isolation. Take a look at MPLS OAM and its problem stateme= nt. It is no different here. If you model the way you say, running ICMP ping= between RBridge suffice the need. Each Rbridge has IP stack anyway. Also, i= n Linux we do have =E2=80=93I options to trigger ICMP.=20 >=20 > Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achiev= e this:=20 > [Answer] All of the below is based on using multicast trees. Are you sugge= sting to use multicast to do trace route. Whole purpose of OAM is data plane= integrity verification. Trace route in particular, used for fault isolation= . Multicast use a different forwarding logic than that of unicast. Use of Mu= lticast to trace route unicat is not going to achieve what is needed. Second= ly, multicast trees will not cover all links. Case in point is having a sing= le tree.=20 > a. Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing= unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channe= l message to the respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridge= s". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message wit= h incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you= what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint y= ou a picture of the different trees.=20 > [Answer] First reaction to this was am I reading this correctly. After rea= ding this one more time it appeared I am reading it correctly. There are thr= ee main issues: 1. There can be 1000 of RBRidges, and getting a response fro= m all of them going to overwhelm. Probably choke the CPU of the requester. 2= . When you do incremental TTL value, it will leak out at the last RBridge. 3= . Tree does not include all paths. Assume you have 1 tree, (Which is a perfe= ctly a valid configuration), how are you going to cover links not in the tre= e.=20 > b. Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "al= l-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address o= f the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enume= rate all possible pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rb= ridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dm= ac to be all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by it= self to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requ= irement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternat= ive inner dmacs where needed.=20 > [Answer] Fundamental problem:. Prune tree works based on VLAN and MAC addr= ess or VLAN and IP address. Are you suggesting to try all VLAN all address h= ere ?=20 > c. Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recomme= nd building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (= with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge cha= nnel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with tha= t of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked pac= kets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is neve= r used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl fiel= d in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet in= to the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the= path.=20 > [Answer] Aha you are now acknowledging IP is used for ECMP hash. Now I am w= ondering how Channel header can facilitate that. The concept of utilizing in= valid checksum is already covered in draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 Section 6.3. S= econdly using TTL in multicast is a dangerous thing, as tree depth can be di= fferent and packets can leak out. You may not want to trigger invalid IP che= cksum counter on your hosting servers. As that may generate additional suppo= rt calls. Checksum invalid SHOULD only be used to protect against unlikely c= ase packets leaking out. Not the default.=20 > Question: Are you suggesting to include IP Multicast packets in the native= form here or encap within channel header ?=20 > d. Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch yo= u're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner D= MAC. Construct the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basic= ally, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value= . This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only o= n the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an e= cho request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path fr= om the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, a= nd repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow y= ou to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination.=20 > [Answer] You are making big assumption here. Firstly hash is not defined i= n any standard and it is implementation depended. Some devices may use SMAC:= DMAC VLAN combination, Some may use IP flow information. May be low ends use= just DMAC. In anycase selecting Random values are not going to gurentee a c= overing all paths. Secondly one may not even know how many ECMP options avai= lable on an RBridge 3 hops away. This is the reason more elaborate methods a= re required RFC 4379 explain How this can be done in MPLS. Based on the feed= back received during the last WG session in Taipei, we have also enhanced to= included this. Please see section 9.9. This needed to be done in more syste= matic manner rather than randomly generating DMAC. DMAC means Destination MA= C. SMAC means Source MAC=20 > e. Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we= did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac= address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to de= bug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP chec= ksum to be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that y= ou're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on receive= d ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.=20 > [Answer] This same concept is in section 6.3 of draft-tissa-trill-oam. =20= > Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving t= he objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are techn= ically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objecti= ve.=20 >=20 > 3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a p= art of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam ne= eds to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge c= hannel to achieve this. >=20 > 4) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethe= rnet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/receive del= ays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as= described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote dis= covery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just l= ogin to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly,= or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionality which is bet= ter done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-tr= ill-oam should be taken out. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Answer] Your understanding is incorrect. TTM is utilized not for counter= s but to ensure that specific flows are reaching specifc devices. This is in= cluded as part of feedback received from the WG in Tapei. This is an adaptat= ion of Data Driven CFM .=20 >=20 > 5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is prob= ably done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "s= how l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Answer] How do you know which device to login to use show commands/=20 >=20 > 6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being a= ble to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This i= s again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic= MIB walk case.=20 > [Answer] How do you know which device is having the MAC so you can do the w= alk ? >=20 > 7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM dra= ft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI.=20 > [Answer] Firstly how do you know which device to login to use CLI. Secondl= y, anything that improve usability and experience of users can be always inc= luded. >=20 > 8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this d= raft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags). >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Answer] Terminology can be changed to include what is defined in VXLAN, N= VGRE etc. The case in point is when there are other overlay technologies how= to identify different address association. Certain VM may use the same MAC a= ddress to associate with different VXLAN segments.=20 >=20 > best, > Sunny Rajagopalan=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge________________________= _______________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 --Apple-Mail-91D93244-341B-4940-8DF9-357511CA8C83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Inline for my reply.
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Santosh Raj= agopalan <sunny.rajagopal= an@us.ibm.com> wrote:

I think that we're starting to t= alk past each other. May I suggest taking each of the ping/traceroute situations on a case-by-case basis to see how each proposal handles it?
Draft is meant for that. If you have specific case wh= ere you feel it doesn't solve it, ask it away. Will be glad to answer them. L= ast thing we should do is to make it a design document. 

Basically, can one of the authors s= ummarize the approach in draft-tissa-trill-oam for ping/traceroute to discover:

a. multidestination unpruned trees.=

b. multidestination pruned trees (p= er multicast group).

c. tracing the path taken by a real= multicast flow.

d. unicast path discovery for each m= ultipath

e. unicast path discovery for real f= low.

I understand this will be a restate= ment of information that's present in draft-tissa-trill-oam, and I apologize for that. I'm looking for a more concise presentation of the approach. I am having trouble arranging the information in draft-tissa-trill-oam into the categories I've suggested above. You can use as a template the email I sent out originally starting this thread.
We plan to to present at ietf, again. Hopefully we ca= n clarify them, there. As the status is still draft,we plan to add more cont= ent. We will definitely like to add data, if not present, to care for majori= ty of the scenarios if not all.

As for the discussion below about w= hether properties should be queried via SNMP or ICMP OAM, I would simply suggest that we make a choice one way or the other. After all, if you add the abilit= y to query mac addresses, DRBs etc to OAM (and these are already present in <= font size=3D"3" color=3D"#2222c0" face=3D"Arial">draft-ietf-trill<= /u>-rbridge-mib), then why stop there? Why not incorporate everything in the SNMP MIB into the ICMP query framework?
Why just stop with mib?
After= all, if SNMP is truly "expensive and intensive", why stop with DRB queries? I would then suggest doing away with the trill mib and using icmp as the query mechanism for all proper= ties.
You should ask mib authors that question. If you g= o by your logic, if snmp is present, we should not attempt any with other te= chnology, including net conf.
Really, I'm ok either way, but I think we should pic= k one so that people don't end up implementing the same thing twice.
The goal is not to duplicate the effort, but to get s= omething operationally useful to fulfill oam functions. We feel differently t= o what you think. It is not a magic wand trying to make others vanish, rathe= r give additional tools to manage networks.


Sam

--
Sunny Rajagopalan




From:   &nbs= p;    Sam Aldrin <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com>
To:    =    Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS
Cc:    =    "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>
Date:   &nbs= p;    03/13/2012 11:59 AM=
Subject:   &= nbsp;    Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam        anddraft-ietf-trill= -rbridge-oam
Sent by:   &= nbsp;    rbridge-bounces@postel.org



See inline for my response to your questions.

-sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan <sunny.raj= agopalan@us.ibm.com> wrote:
1) Let's say that you are trying to= find all possible paths between two rbridges (or liveliness) for a)unicast, b) multicast (unpruned) and c) multicast (pruned). My proposal  below will let you discover all three, without needing IP.  Since we're using the rbridge channel ethertype, rbridges can trap these and prevent them from getting to hosts at the edge. Note that we rely on unicast forward= ing of rbridge channel packets for unicast discovery and multicast forwarding of rbridge channel packets for multicast discovery. This happens naturally in any trill compliant switch.
%sam - Discovering all of th= e paths is one part and discovering a path a specific flow takes is another problem.= What we are trying to say is channel draft does not allow the full flexibili= ty, for Unicast and multicast combinations. As was answered in the original email by Tissa, that multicast pruning happens with IP VLAN combinations with channel drafts such things are not possible. IP invalid checksum method= has danger of triggering invalid packet counters  and lead to administr= ation nightmare in hosting providers. We encourage you to check this with provider= s. The same was attempted while doing OAM for PW's etc, and received a strong no-no.

2) Let's say that you already have the information from 1) above, but you are trying to figure out which of the many paths you know of will be used for a particular flow. Now, draft-tissa-trill-oam assumes that the inner ethernet header is never used for hashing for an IP flow. It assumes that as long as you keep the L3 and L4 fields the same as that of the original packet, hardware will hash to the same values as that from the original flow, even though the L2 header is different ("6.2. Identification of IP Flows" in  draft-tissa-trill-oam ). I do not think this is a valid assumption to make. The only way to make sure your probe packet takes the same path as a regular packet is to make it identical to the original packet, all the way including the L2 headers. The IP checksum is never used for hashing,= so you can invalidate it to make sure such packets get dropped at the host. This is the approach I was advocating for doing path discovery for a particu= lar flow.
%sam- You have not read section 6..3 of draft-tissa-= trill-oam, (Tissa pointed this out in his earlier response as well). Section 6.3 is all about using unmodified header. Please read section 6.3. Also this method= cannot be used for Multicast as answered above will trigger invalid packet count.

3) The only hash behavior we can be sure of is that if you give any asic a non-IP packet, it will do load balancing using the only available fields, which is ethernet smac + dmac. I'm exploiting this property to do path discovery (the rbridge ethertype makes asics treat these packets as non-IP).= Therefore, if you vary the inner dmac, you can exercise all the available paths. Paths you discover using this approach are applicable to both IP and non-IP traffic, since trill routes are common for both. The only hash assumption I've made is that L2 unknown ethertype (rbridge channel)  pa= ckets get load balanced using the inner dmac/smac. I am making no assumption about the fields used by the hardware for hashing IP packets.
%sam- Are you suggesting ingress node to randomely change the DMAC, Point is how you going to randomly change a DMAC and ensure= it is taking a specific path. ?

4) People adopting TRILL are more likely to come from an ethernet background= than from an MPLS background. For our target audience, it's important for OAM to look like what they're already familiar with, which is ethernet OAM. TRILL competes with SPB for the same space, and note that they make a virtue of being ethernet OAM compatible. Do many people on this list feel MPLS OAM is the way to go for us?
%sam - that is your assumption, not necessary that othe= rs share the same view. OAM, irrespective of different layers, share common characteristics. Reusing what we learnt in other areas is very useful. Having said that, folks who use OAM do not see how it is implemented, rather= it is for the implementor who cares for it. If you go by your logic, mpls OAM is not right because it uses IP model and mpls is not IP.
Trill as such has evolved by bringing ip and bridging technologies together, with best of both in each category. Just because one likes Ethernet OAM, doesn't mean, anything to do with Ethernet , should always do Ethernet OAM. The same argument was used for mpls TP OAM as well. We all know the result.
The proposal here is to use the proven methodology and is working. If it is solving problem, why reinvent the wheel all over again.= Better make use of it. If the solution cannot work, then we can discuss about those points, rather than predefining the solution to fit based on what one feels.
As far as Qbp goes, the concept of flows and it's ident= ification is different. You cannot just compare as is for TRILL. If you want, we can discuss in that list, to get complete perspective.

5) I'm assuming that when operators lay out a network, they have access to a picture that shows the interconnects (or at least have some management tool speaking snmp that does). So when they need to discover the DRB on a multi-access link, then can send an SNMP query to the rbridges connected on that link to get the DRB information. This also goes for finding the mac addresses on a given rbridge, finding the address bindings at a particul= ar rbridge etc. All of these "property query" type messages are exactly what SNMP was made for. Some things like finding the vn-tag, vxlan ID, nvgre ID etc are within the domain of SNMP but out of scope for TRILL. What is trill-specific about these?
%sam - if everything is available through Snmp, even pe= rforming OAM functions is redundant. Basing a model on Snmp is expensive and intensiv= e. If we go by the argument of yours, Ethernet OAM, why do you need to export performance stats in band, when you can query the same using snmp?
My answer is simple. If one feels the need to export da= ta or query data, we provide a mechanism without relying solely on SNMP. While we find it useful, everyone may not, that doesn't mean, it is not useful. If a vendor chooses not to implement, it is fine.

I haven't responded to any statements below which are based on a misundersta= nding of my original email, please re-review it and I'll be happy to answer questi= ons on it.
I do not see what was not understood. You can clarify if something was not addressed right.

Sam

best regards,
Sunny Rajagopalan




From:        "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com<= /font>>
To:        &= lt;rbridge@postel.org>
Date:        03/08/2012 09:28 AM
Subject:        Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam        anddraft-= ietf-trill-rbridge-oam
Sent by:        rbridge-= bounces@postel.org



Firstly there are few critical high-level points that needed to be stated
 
1.      OAM cannot be just detecting Liveliness and Path discovery. It is about Operatio= nal aspects of networks which include but not limited to Detecting Liveliness, Path Discovery, Fault finding, Fault Isolation etc. OAM is never constrained= to ping and trace route.  Look at where OAM is heading to in MPLS and MPLS-TP.
2.      TRILL cannot be compared 1-1 with Ethernet or IP. TRILL encapsulate the user payload with the TRILL header and utilize that to forward using TRILL header= and some parts of user payload (e,g, ECMP and mcast forwarding and pruning).= TRILL utilize multiple paths and multi destination tress. In that regard it is similar to a tunneling protocol. Most logical comparison of TRILL OAM is RFC 4379 MPLS OAM If one takes a look at TRILL evolution, multipathin= g is the fundamental point of leveraging IP technology within bridging. If one cannot perform OAM functions to verify all the paths, it is a moot point to develop OAM functions.
3.      What is fundamentally required in TRILL OAM is to have OAM framework that allows to keep OAM frames as close as possible to data packet. ICMP is not utilized= as a Ping or Traceroute. Motivation here is to provide such framework in backward compatible manner without introducing additional restrictions. As an example, channel draft, which define the framework of OAM channel you are proposing require to use RBridge critical alert bit. RBridges that are not supporting that cannot claim it is Channel capable. Additionally, Channel header follows right after the inner MAC header. This limit includin= g any L3 frames. It is a common practice to select ECMP based on IP flow information and multicast prune based on IP address. (Please see rfc6326 bis for Group IP Address sub-TLV.  draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which you are proposing to use do not provide that flexibility. In your response below you have proposed several alternatives but in our mind they do not achieve what is required in OAM. Please see specific responses embedd= ed.
4.      Current suggestion from WG members are to utilize RFC 4379 framework, as that allow to utilize lots of existing knowledge, implementation and user experience from MPLS OAM.
5.      The embedded message channel is utilized so receiver can identify OAM frames from data frames and take appropriate actions.  Without limiting what payloads can be include in the OAM packet.
6.      You have proposed to use incremental TTL value method for multicast with invalid= IP checksum. Firstly given the tree depth is different in different branches= , this will invariably leak packets out. And will lead to incrementing IP invalid packet count on end stations. In hosting application this may genera= te unwanted support calls, and something that should not be done. In draft-tiss= a-trill-oam-03 section 6.3 propose to use this exact method only for unciast. Additionally because we can identify OAM frames from real data with TTL expiry due to embedded message channel, we notify that as the last hop bridge and user would not generate N+1 TTL packet.
7.      Below you have proposed to utilize multicast for path trace (trace route).  W= hole purpose of OAM is data plane integrity verification. Trace route in particul= ar, used for fault isolation. Multicast use a different forwarding logic than that of unicast. Use of Multicast to trace route unicat is not going to achieve what is needed and negate the use of OAM. Additionally there are several issues such multicast tree may not cover all links in the campus and so on. Please see specific response embedded in the relevant section
8.      You are proposing to merge the two drafts and I do not see a commonality based on your responses below.
 
Please see more specific answers below
  From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org<= /a> [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM
To: rbridge@postel.org
Cc: Santosh Rajagopalan
Subject: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbr= idge-oam
 
 
 =
Hi,
We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-rb= ridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls for a revised= draft with the best ideas from both.

draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc.  The major reason for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have some suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oa= m without using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be rightly queried from a MIB.

I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that would be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNMP query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look at the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they have a place here.

Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis:

1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (it does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connec= tivity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting the two.  One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the echo request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie could be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The response could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If the sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanism then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a feature borrowed from ethernet OAM.
[Answer] Seem the paragraph is contradicting itself. Firstly you say ping is to detect the liveliness. Then you say it can be detected to measure jitter, delay etc. If there are 10 ECMP paths and if you can only measure latency of one it does not give true picture of the information.

2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implement= ations usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enumerate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow would take are good to have features.
[Answer] This is not a good to have feature, but a MUST, because it is fundamental to fault isolation. Take a look at MP= LS OAM and its problem statement. It is no different here. If you model the way you say, running ICMP ping between RBridge suffice the need. Each Rbridge has IP stack anyway. Also, in Linux we do have =E2=80=93I options to trigger= ICMP.

Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achieve this:
[Answer] All of the below is based on using multicast trees. Are you suggest= ing to use multicast to do trace route. Whole purpose of OAM is data plane integrity verification. Trace route in particular, used for fault isolation.= Multicast use a different forwarding logic than that of unicast. Use of Multicast to trace route unicat is not going to achieve what is needed. Secondly, multicast trees will not cover all links. Case in point is having a single tree.
a.        M= ulticast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel message to the respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint you a picture of the different trees. <= font size=3D"2" color=3D"#004080" face=3D"Calibri">
[Answer] First reaction to this was am I reading this correctly. After reading this one more time it appeared I am reading it correctly. There are three main issues: 1. There can be 1000 of RBRidges, and getting a response from all of them going to overwhelm. Probably choke the CPU of the requester. 2. When you do incremental TTL value, it will leak out at the last RBridge. 3. Tree does not include all paths. Assume you have 1 tree, (Which is a perfectly a valid configuration), how are you going to cover links not in the tree.
b.        M= ulticast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "all-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address of the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enumerate all possibl= e pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac to be all-eg= ress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itself to classify an OAM packet= , and I am advocating that the inner dmac requirement in draft-ietf-trill-rbri= dge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternative inner dmacs where needed.
[Answer] Fundamental problem:. Prune tree works based on VLAN and MAC addres= s or VLAN and IP address. Are you suggesting to try all VLAN all address here ? <= br> c.        M= ulticast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.
[Answer] Aha you are now acknowledging IP is used for ECMP hash. Now I am wondering how Channel header can facilitate that. The concept of utilizin= g invalid checksum is already covered in draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 Section 6.3. Secondly using TTL in multicast is a dangerous thing, as tree depth can be different and packets can leak out. You may not want to trigger invalid IP checksum counter on your hosting servers. As that may generate additional support calls. Checksum invalid SHOULD only be used to protect against unlikely case packets leaking out. Not the default.
Question: Are you suggesting to include IP Multicast packets in the native form here or encap within channel header ?
d.        U= nicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Construct= the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only on the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path from the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, and repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow you to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination.
[Answer] You are making big assumption here. Firstly hash is not defined in any standard and it is implementation depended. Some devices may use SMAC:DMAC VLAN combination, Some may use IP flow information. May be low ends use just DMAC. In anycase selecting Random values are not going to gurentee a covering all paths. Secondly one may not even know how many ECMP options available on an RBridge 3 hops away. This is the reason more elaborate methods are required RFC 4379 explain How this can be done in MPLS. Based on the feedback received during the last WG session in Taipei, we have also enhanced to included this. Please see section 9.9. This needed to be done in more systematic manner rather than randomly generating DMAC. DMAC means Destination MAC. SMAC means Source MAC
e.        U= nicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, L4 headers= etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invali= d. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path. <= font size=3D"2" color=3D"#004080" face=3D"Calibri">
[Answer] This same concept is in section 6.3 of draft-tissa-trill-oam.   =
Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving the objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are technically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objective.

3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a part of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam= needs to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge= channel to achieve this.

4) draft-tissa-trill-oam  has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethernet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/rece= ive delays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote discovery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just login to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly, or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating function= ality which is better done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-trill-oam should be taken out.



[Answer] Your understanding is incorrect. TTM  is utilized not for counters but to ensure that specific flows are reaching specifc devices. This is included as part of feedback received from the WG in Tapei. This is an adaptation of Data Driven CFM .

5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is probab= ly done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "show l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB.



[Answer] How do you know which device to login to use show commands/<= font size=3D"3">

6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being able to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic MIB walk case.
[Answer] How do you know which device is having the MAC so you can do the walk ?

7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM draft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI.
[Answer] Firstly how do you know which device to login to use CLI. Secondly,= anything that improve usability and experience of users can be always includ= ed.

8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this draft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags).



[Answer] Terminology can be changed to include what is defined in VXLAN, NVGRE etc. The case in point is when there are other overlay technologies how to identify different address association. Certain VM may use the same MAC address to associate with different VXLAN segments.

best,
Sunny Rajagopalan
_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.pos= tel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
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rbridge mailing list
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http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listi= nfo/rbridge
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http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/= rbridge_________________________________= ______________
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<= tt>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
= --Apple-Mail-91D93244-341B-4940-8DF9-357511CA8C83-- --===============1879261750== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1879261750==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 15 16:27:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FED21E8044 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:27:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.398, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id erH896u4OzWU for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E691421E8043 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2FNKatJ008719; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2FNK24f008687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:20:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=letracy@cisco.com; l=7222; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331853611; x=1333063211; h=date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=EzmnsnoADbGOuQNW5rRlvBwl4Pp9WA+mwSkmw9ozB50=; b=TSlnQbzekUohpHJPuCpSA4JSI64ZAbxNFNpdfyW7lebTk/+Xs/UQt1Pb kNIRJvwTUkwgRZmgW4z+G5DWDmtjIP0cwCvb4KiS+eYDV6VdhWdki0f9r X0JKcPi/5TYx/tVL3vMQuON3MfjK2w/lPJzsy44BwgOUXgTmEEjywQjns c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFAMJ3Yk+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCgkWyc3aBB4IJAQEBAwESASo8BQ0BCAkPTzYBAQQBDQUbB4djBAGabZ8EiVCHNwSIJDOFKodgiy6DEYFogwY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,593,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="36243798" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2012 23:20:02 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2FNK101024157; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:20:01 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-238.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.16]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:20:01 -0700 Received: from 10.21.148.90 ([10.21.148.90]) by xmb-sjc-238.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.16]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:20:00 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.32.0.111121 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:19:52 -0700 From: letracy To: Sam Aldrin , Santosh Rajagopalan Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL Thread-Index: Ac0DAh+vE0Y5NTC0/02n7ccngyeheg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2012 23:20:01.0832 (UTC) FILETIME=[258B5A80:01CD0302] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: letracy@cisco.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , Anoop Ghanwani , Radia Perlman , Donald Eastlake , "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" , Jon Hudson Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0356481742==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --===============0356481742== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3414673192_31218674" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3414673192_31218674 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sunny, I wanted to try and clarify my point a little better: >From W=B9s perspective nothing has changed except the addition of the SMAC. RFC6325 does not mandate that it accept traffic from both links, so it can have a single RPF check if it wishes. In the example below, A and X do not know which port on the LAN link W will send a particular frame on. The RFC explicitly states that W is free to loadsplit flows among its ports on the link and requires that A and X be able to accept traffic from either of W=B9s links (See RFC6325 Section 4.4.4)= . This means that A and X (all Rbridges which share the LAN link with W) will be required to have 1 RPF check per port W has on the link for W and for each Rbridge behind W in the tree. In the below example that means A must have the following RPF checks for it= s interface connected to the LAN link: (U,interface, SMAC_W1) (U,interface, SMAC_W2) (V,interface, SMAC_W1) (V,interface, SMAC_W2) (W,interface, SMAC_W1) (W,interface, SMAC_W2) (X,interface, SMAC_X) (Y,interface, SMAC_X) (Z,interface, SMAC_X) Thanks, Leonard On 3/15/12 2:54 PM, "Sam Aldrin" wrote: > Having read both sides of the story, two points I hear are > 1. There is a scenario or corner case, where existing rpf check doesn't > satisfy the needs. > 2. Because the new proposal requires SMAC to be maintained, the size of t= ables > exponentially increases. >=20 > IMO, weight given to 1and 2 could vary depending on vendor and whom you t= alk > to. If stronger rpf check is needed, a solution without increasing the > complexity in table size etc should be proposed. If that is something not > going to be achieved, it should be left optional, till something is > identified. >=20 > My 2 cents > Sam >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Mar 15, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan > wrote: >=20 >> I think that a similar argument can be made for the current RPF check as= well >> - it costs us table space and helps us in rare, transient cases. If you >> decide that the RPF check is worthwhile having in its current form, I th= ink >> you can make the case that it's worthwhile having in the expanded form a= s >> well.=20 >>=20 >> Because really, the new form of the RPF check says the same thing as the >> current form - it's just that in multi-access links you need to qualify = the >> "allowed link" a little more strongly. Also, I'm not sure if its absence >> could lead to loops - duplicates were just the first case I thought of. >>=20 >> Note that in the case you illustrated below (where rbridges have multipl= e >> links to the CE network) you would need to have multiple RPF entries any= way, >> even without the new expanded check. For example, the rbridge W would ne= ed >> "allow (A, link_1)" in addition to "allow (A, link_2)". Of course, there= 's no >> denying that adding the mac address there will bring in additional memor= y >> costs.=20 --B_3414673192_31218674 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL Hi Sunny,

I wanted to try and clarify my point a little better:

>From W’s perspective nothing has changed except the addition of the S= MAC.  RFC6325 does not mandate that it accept traffic from both links, = so it can have a single RPF check if it wishes.

In the example below, A and X do not know which port on the LAN link W will= send a particular frame on.  The RFC explicitly states that W is free = to loadsplit flows among its ports on the link and requires that A and X be = able to accept traffic from either of W’s links (See RFC6325 Section 4= .4.4).  This means that A and X (all Rbridges which share the LAN link = with W) will be required to have 1 RPF check per port W has on the link for = W and for each Rbridge behind W in the tree.  

In the below example that means A must have the following RPF checks for it= s interface connected to the LAN link:
(U,interface, SMAC_W1)
(U,interface, SMAC_W2)
(V,interface, SMAC_W1)
(V,interface, SMAC_W2)
(W,interface, SMAC_W1)
(W,interface, SMAC_W2)
(X,interface, SMAC_X)
(Y,interface, SMAC_X)
(Z,interface, SMAC_X)

Thanks,
Leonard



On 3/15/12 2:54 PM, "Sam Aldrin" <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Having read both sides of the story, two points = I hear are
1. There is a scenario or corner case, where existing rpf check doesn't sat= isfy the needs.
2. Because the new proposal requires SMAC to be maintained, the size of tab= les exponentially increases.

IMO, weight given to 1and 2 could vary depending on vendor and whom you tal= k to. If stronger rpf check is needed, a solution without increasing the com= plexity in table size etc should be proposed. If that is something not going= to be achieved, it should be left optional, till something is identified.
My 2 cents
Sam

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>I think that a similar argument can be made for = the current RPF check as well - it costs us table space and helps us in rare= , transient cases. If you decide that the RPF check is worthwhile having in = its current form, I think you can make the case that it's worthwhile having = in the expanded form as well.

Because really, the new form of the RPF check says the same thing as the cu= rrent form - it's just that in multi-access links you need to qualify the &q= uot;allowed link" a little more strongly. Also, I'm not sure if its abs= ence could lead to loops - duplicates were just the first case I thought of.=

Note that in the case you illustrated below (where rbridges have multiple l= inks to the CE network) you would need to have multiple RPF entries anyway, = even without the new expanded check. For example, the rbridge W would need &= quot;allow (A, link_1)" in addition to "allow (A, link_2)". O= f course, there's no denying that adding the mac address there will bring in= additional memory costs.
--B_3414673192_31218674-- --===============0356481742== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0356481742==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 15 17:16:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B9421E8051 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.882 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.882 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qXF4qyaK9WDp for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4893D21E804C for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2G052ts015741; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2G04K8P015683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so5088480lah.39 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:04:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RaiSZ8NFeaBJtPKRyYJ8SXENEEGaAVpW7DKEqzvEGGg=; b=SK/0FC2UDLCoolOaXi66m3d4qR+jgP4ujzWUoR+TVSF67pbb8gQ9KcAd5oy17rWfib fBoSoGRrABt0zYbW6cfKiYcojfB4NpcHh/N0DO/7k8GdjtAEZrPqpoUZvGnQ+aNH4e3A 10DEmGlrBVb3TDwkrG21NhobhcXF5N1otW1b0yTmn1GQ5IsZRJS9/S8gKLIdQg1WRoLV fs1pXtv1fSV6v2ZCBMvMHHSgIX02r9XilycEaqmf5roHGVcU674dlxmM+FQL6OhadBRB j7sBSTFTtqeNa8l6kvqaLtJaS9wC96vNJXwRLZxJX8gcY5Brnvhm6wvkgwntUioiSJEj NUtQ== Received: by 10.152.112.100 with SMTP id ip4mr500928lab.1.1331856259284; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:04:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.13.227 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:03:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:03:58 -0400 Message-ID: To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2G04K8P015683 Subject: [rbridge] Fwd: RFC6326bis X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org As below I have requested that the rfc6326bis draft become an ISIS WG draft. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Donald Eastlake Date: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:10 PM Subject: RFC6326bis To: isis mailing list Hi, RFC 6326, TRILL Use of IS-IS, essentially reflects the TRILL protocol as passed up to the IESG by the TRILL WG in 2009. This draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eastlake-isis-rfc6326bis/ updates and extends RFC 6326 for more recent and on-going developments in TRILL. I request that it be made an ISIS WG draft. People may wish to review and comment on the draft. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 16 12:28:17 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457FE21F86B7 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:28:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.891 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.708, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IV8oJbKx38Jh for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CA521F86C5 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2GJ4VPb004619; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2GJ3ur2004393 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so6239353lah.39 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:03:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CHluuw0m8HTaRYTrfDOcWBydj90o5aZdrhOr4WFfVgs=; b=rdiQTZX9BYG9X+3LWk70MLdUyMpUTM3NUsOcGoj7QhYTXA92KFznIXpz0ELyWhPvyQ r6vZ5rqmpwcaEn8I+3kappdX+OH0YaSuqajLIBAT+EOy79quKUGaNSBqsOs3SZv8NAOz ntF/FL9/5d4tKVaPS0GbEFsfOc8N89p3rPqBV7VIEt1tEOnRpHrfT3K0KRdC6+J7URcf D6z6YPJp0odyFlkKHiDtCvqyzcXZ1pQxdrh0R675aZ8SLWqLNqNbQcqHUKHr2excFui4 OuDF+qIKGIImLk8d2N6VJqqoli0/Mtzmr6kyA+BhrY04B8ePEfSdHRYy5TjePcwXRdj+ 9Yyw== Received: by 10.112.36.167 with SMTP id r7mr1386278lbj.32.1331924635485; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:03:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.13.227 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:03:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:03:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: "rbridge@postel.org" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2GJ3ur2004393 Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi, I agree that use of the stronger, simpler RPFC should be optional. Among other things, we certainly don't want to declare faithful implementations of RFC 6325 non-conformant. Also, I think there are, for reasonable implementation strategies, cases where there would be more state information with the current standard RPFC requirement and other cases where there would be more state information with the simpler, stronger RPFC requirement. (The most important factor for distinguishing between these cases is, as implied by the message below, how many ports each RBridge has on the multi-access link.) Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:19 PM, letracy wrote: > Hi Sunny, > > I wanted to try and clarify my point a little better: > > From W=92s perspective nothing has changed except the addition of the SMA= C. > =A0RFC6325 does not mandate that it accept traffic from both links, so it= can > have a single RPF check if it wishes. > > In the example below, A and X do not know which port on the LAN link W wi= ll > send a particular frame on. =A0The RFC explicitly states that W is free to > loadsplit flows among its ports on the link and requires that A and X be > able to accept traffic from either of W=92s links (See RFC6325 Section 4.= 4.4). > =A0This means that A and X (all Rbridges which share the LAN link with W)= will > be required to have 1 RPF check per port W has on the link for W and for > each Rbridge behind W in the tree. > > In the below example that means A must have the following RPF checks for = its > interface connected to the LAN link: > (U,interface, SMAC_W1) > (U,interface, SMAC_W2) > (V,interface, SMAC_W1) > (V,interface, SMAC_W2) > (W,interface, SMAC_W1) > (W,interface, SMAC_W2) > (X,interface, SMAC_X) > (Y,interface, SMAC_X) > (Z,interface, SMAC_X) > > Thanks, > Leonard > > > > > On 3/15/12 2:54 PM, "Sam Aldrin" wrote: > > Having read both sides of the story, two points I hear are > 1. There is a scenario or corner case, where existing rpf check doesn't > satisfy the needs. > 2. Because the new proposal requires SMAC to be maintained, the size of > tables exponentially increases. > > IMO, weight given to 1and 2 could vary depending on vendor and whom you t= alk > to. If stronger rpf check is needed, a solution without increasing the > complexity in table size etc should be proposed. If that is something not > going to be achieved, it should be left optional, till something is > identified. > > My 2 cents > Sam > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 15, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Santosh Rajagopalan > wrote: > > I think that a similar argument can be made for the current RPF check as > well - it costs us table space and helps us in rare, transient cases. If = you > decide that the RPF check is worthwhile having in its current form, I thi= nk > you can make the case that it's worthwhile having in the expanded form as > well. > > Because really, the new form of the RPF check says the same thing as the > current form - it's just that in multi-access links you need to qualify t= he > "allowed link" a little more strongly. Also, I'm not sure if its absence > could lead to loops - duplicates were just the first case I thought of. > > Note that in the case you illustrated below (where rbridges have multiple > links to the CE network) you would need to have multiple RPF entries anyw= ay, > even without the new expanded check. For example, the rbridge W would need > "allow (A, link_1)" in addition to "allow (A, link_2)". Of course, there's > no denying that adding the mac address there will bring in additional mem= ory > costs. _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 16 13:23:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D8021E8048 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.449, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8cAK4A3tDsdD for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C67421E800F for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2GKDich014636; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com (e31.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.149]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2GKD7nS014562 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e31.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:12:05 -0600 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673DDC9005A for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.168]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2GKC3w0291532 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:12:04 -0400 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2GKBu8s031864 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:11:56 -0600 Received: from d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.18]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2GKBrCH031333 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:11:53 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: To: "rbridge@postel.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: FFC80969:70E49312-872579C3:006EB038; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: From: Santosh Rajagopalan Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:12:06 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM127/03/M/IBM(Release 8.5.1FP2|March 17, 2010) at 03/16/2012 14:11:53, Serialize complete at 03/16/2012 14:11:53 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12031620-7282-0000-0000-0000076CC46E X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] a stronger RPF check for TRILL X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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00:30:40 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com [72.163.63.9]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2H0Ue7M011883 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 00:30:40 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-209.cisco.com ([72.163.62.216]) by xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 16 Mar 2012 19:30:39 -0500 Received: from 171.70.224.21 ([171.70.224.21]) by XMB-RCD-209.cisco.com ([72.163.62.216]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 00:30:39 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.32.0.111121 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 17:30:36 -0700 From: varshah To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Parent node ID selection for multi destination trees Thread-Index: Ac0D1Su3nMSoQBCcN0SVRzVksbkNFg== Mime-version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Mar 2012 00:30:39.0662 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DE6A4E0:01CD03D5] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: varshah@cisco.com Subject: [rbridge] Parent node ID selection for multi destination trees X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0867287770==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --===============0867287770== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3414763836_11218396" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3414763836_11218396 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Reading section 4.5 of RFC 6325 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.5) it seems that the selectio= n of a parent node (7 byte- node ID) for a node N on a multi destination tre= e j; should be based on j % p, where p is the number of equal cost parent nodes to reach node N from root node R. The intent seems to use lowest parent node ID for tree 1, next for tree 2 and so on.... And circle through if we have more possible trees than parent nodes. However, the trees are numbered starting 1, and the parent node IDs are indexed starting 0 to (p =AD 1). So, for a node N, when the network supports 2 trees and with two possible parent nodes, we would use parent node indexed at 1 for tree 1, j % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1 and Parent node indexed at 0 for tree 2, j % p --> 2 % 2 =3D 0. To stay with the real intention, it would help if we had (j - 1) %p. In that case, parent node indexed at 0 for tree 1, (j - 1)% p --> 0 % 2 =3D 0 and Parent node indexed at 1 for tree 2,( j =AD 1) % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1. Thanks, -Varun --B_3414763836_11218396 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Parent node ID selection for multi destination trees Hi,

Reading section 4.5 of RFC 6325 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.5) it seems = that the selection of a parent node  (7 byte- node ID) for a node N on = a multi destination tree j; should be based on j % p, where p is the number = of equal cost parent nodes to reach node N from root node R.

The intent seems to use lowest parent node ID for tree 1, next for tree 2 a= nd so on.... And circle through if we have more possible trees than parent n= odes.

However, the trees are numbered starting 1, and the parent node IDs are ind= exed starting 0 to (p – 1).  So, for a node N, when the network s= upports 2 trees and with two possible parent nodes,  we would use

parent node indexed at 1 for tree 1, j % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1 and
Parent node indexed at 0 for tree 2, j % p --> 2 % 2 =3D 0.

To stay with the real intention, it would help if we had (j - 1) %p.

In that case,
parent node indexed at 0 for tree 1, (j  - 1)% p --> 0 % 2 =3D 0 and<= BR> Parent node indexed at 1 for tree 2,( j – 1) % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1.
Thanks,
-Varun --B_3414763836_11218396-- --===============0867287770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0867287770==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 16 18:36:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4912621E8026 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:36:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2XRn8w+HViNb for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5FC21E800F for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2H1HBsQ028689; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2H1GaAh028654 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:16:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=rwatve@cisco.com; l=35806; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331947005; x=1333156605; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to; bh=Lu2SS+gS0ruQWN6CkyUxqxVPaGiAqPxh1dMWOyrCHvE=; b=jc2WeXaSS9oL+iFxbwIf9Hn53p8dzCBobMWlRy9deMVZ5/IIx2uGka2r 90HAwsEBNRg7J34n7d7MPULj3Wo0C6R/xrC+WVjJZDe5uBEYVYF62M7Ab Wa2XfjYaWzIAu9/t/1RMqe88RsOw4TVQp97oA1cBSIqKpmNxePAkHzRR4 s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgMFABjlY0+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCgkaCeLABgQCBB4IJAQEBBBIBCQcEBgNZAgEIDgMEAQELBgYBCQcBAgICAQFECQgBAQQBEggah2eaXo0EkieNUwGCDzNjBIhWiV4CkW+BaIMGgTY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,601,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="33393805" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2012 01:16:35 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2H1GZke003972; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 01:16:35 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:16:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:16:26 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam Thread-Index: Acz7vBaPdNXfwbviRyWlq4WxbKBlDAIHsf3g References: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> From: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" To: "Santosh Rajagopalan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Mar 2012 01:16:36.0025 (UTC) FILETIME=[98D24290:01CD03DB] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: rwatve@cisco.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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_______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1484600805==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 17 11:46:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6897821F85C6 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.549, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vOPAx+afDpZr for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu 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X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqoIAFnWZE+rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABCgkaFYqUpAYd4d4EHggkBAQEDAQEBAQ8BFBYxEA0BCAQFZDABAQQBEiKHYwQBC5p+nliQfASIIzOFKodojkCBaIE2gVA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,602,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="33987482" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2012 18:24:31 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2HIOV6S026942 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:24:31 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-22b.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.112]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:24:31 -0700 Received: from 10.21.146.75 ([10.21.146.75]) by xmb-sjc-22b.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.112]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:24:30 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.32.0.111121 Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:24:47 -0700 From: ayabaner To: varshah , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Parent node ID selection for multi destination trees Thread-Index: Ac0D1Su3nMSoQBCcN0SVRzVksbkNFgAlg/Kh In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Mar 2012 18:24:31.0194 (UTC) FILETIME=[321633A0:01CD046B] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: ayabaner@cisco.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Parent node ID selection for multi destination trees X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0696340196==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --===============0696340196== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3414828287_3936147" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3414828287_3936147 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Varun, Agree, that was the original intention. I believe that if kept as-is we wil= l have more unnecessary changes in the SPF outputs when topology changes. I believe that we should just add this into the =B3draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01=B2. Thanks, Ayan On 3/16/12 5:30 PM, "varshah" wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Reading section 4.5 of RFC 6325 > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.5) it seems that the select= ion > of a parent node (7 byte- node ID) for a node N on a multi destination t= ree > j; should be based on j % p, where p is the number of equal cost parent n= odes > to reach node N from root node R. >=20 > The intent seems to use lowest parent node ID for tree 1, next for tree 2= and > so on.... And circle through if we have more possible trees than parent n= odes. >=20 > However, the trees are numbered starting 1, and the parent node IDs are > indexed starting 0 to (p =AD 1). So, for a node N, when the network suppor= ts 2 > trees and with two possible parent nodes, we would use >=20 > parent node indexed at 1 for tree 1, j % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1 and > Parent node indexed at 0 for tree 2, j % p --> 2 % 2 =3D 0. >=20 > To stay with the real intention, it would help if we had (j - 1) %p. >=20 > In that case, > parent node indexed at 0 for tree 1, (j - 1)% p --> 0 % 2 =3D 0 and > Parent node indexed at 1 for tree 2,( j =AD 1) % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1. >=20 > Thanks, > -Varun >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --B_3414828287_3936147 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [rbridge] Parent node ID selection for multi destination trees</= TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt= '>Varun,<BR> <BR> Agree, that was the original intention. I believe that if kept as-is we wil= l have more unnecessary changes in the SPF outputs when topology changes. <B= R> <BR> I believe that we should just add this into the “draft-ietf-trill-cle= ar-correct-01”.<BR> <BR> Thanks,<BR> Ayan<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> On 3/16/12 5:30 PM, "varshah" <<a href=3D"varshah@cisco.com">var= shah@cisco.com</a>> wrote:<BR> <BR> </SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Hi,<BR> <BR> Reading section 4.5 of RFC 6325 (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc632= 5#section-4.5">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.5</a>) it seems = that the selection of a parent node  (7 byte- node ID) for a node N on = a multi destination tree j; should be based on j % p, where p is the number = of equal cost parent nodes to reach node N from root node R. <BR> <BR> The intent seems to use lowest parent node ID for tree 1, next for tree 2 a= nd so on.... And circle through if we have more possible trees than parent n= odes.<BR> <BR> However, the trees are numbered starting 1, and the parent node IDs are ind= exed starting 0 to (p – 1).  So, for a node N, when the network s= upports 2 trees and with two possible parent nodes,  we would use <BR> <BR> parent node indexed at 1 for tree 1, j % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1 and<BR> Parent node indexed at 0 for tree 2, j % p --> 2 % 2 =3D 0.<BR> <BR> To stay with the real intention, it would help if we had (j - 1) %p.<BR> <BR> In that case,<BR> parent node indexed at 0 for tree 1, (j  - 1)% p --> 0 % 2 =3D 0 and<= BR> Parent node indexed at 1 for tree 2,( j – 1) % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1.<BR= > <BR> Thanks,<BR> -Varun<BR> <HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"></SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FA= CE=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>___________= ____________________________________<BR> rbridge mailing list<BR> <a href=3D"rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a><BR> <a href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge">http://mailman= .postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</a><BR> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML> --B_3414828287_3936147-- --===============0696340196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0696340196==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 19 11:02:47 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5C621F8811 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.224 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.374, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TcwDB1xy0KoT for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F1221F880D for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2JHnKil006490; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (e34.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.152]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2JHmun3006446 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e34.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted for <rbridge@postel.org> from <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:48:54 -0600 Received: from d03dlp03.boulder.ibm.com (9.17.202.179) by e34.co.us.ibm.com (192.168.1.134) with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:48:52 -0600 Received: from d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.107]) by d03dlp03.boulder.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5CD19D804F; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:48:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (d03av06.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.245]) by d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2JHmCUs037542; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:48:16 -0600 Received: from d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2JHmVM6015548; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:48:32 -0600 Received: from d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.18]) by d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2JHmVeb015532; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:48:31 -0600 In-Reply-To: <CD31C838133B34469D6E01406350E68C0E8A563E@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> References: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> <EF74E90D-AC4C-4798-88CD-ACF3035E268D@us.ibm.com> <CD31C838133B34469D6E01406350E68C0E8A563E@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> To: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" <rwatve@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 785471D9:96C20091-872579C6:005F99B6; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: <OF785471D9.96C20091-ON872579C6.005F99B6-882579C6.0061DDA8@us.ibm.com> From: Santosh Rajagopalan <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:48:29 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM127/03/M/IBM(Release 8.5.1FP2|March 17, 2010) at 03/19/2012 11:48:10, Serialize complete at 03/19/2012 11:48:10 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12031917-1780-0000-0000-000004164527 X-IBM-ISS-SpamDetectors: X-IBM-ISS-DetailInfo: BY=3.00000258; HX=3.00000186; KW=3.00000007; PH=3.00000001; SC=3.00000001; SDB=6.00123427; UDB=6.00029611; UTC=2012-03-19 17:48:54 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org, rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0786058506==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0786058506== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0061DDA8882579C6_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0061DDA8882579C6_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi, Rohit You could have a packet or two leak to the host, and the host OS will drop it because of the invalid checksum (this number of drops would be at the level of noise for most systems). A more difficult alternative would be to have switches drop packets with an invalid IP checksum from leaving host-facing ports. 1) You employ this method only after all your other means of debugging have failed to root cause the issue. This means that you've already used the means outlined below to trace the path that this packet should be taking (2.a and 2.b below, which use the rbridge channel header and result in no leaks). 2) After you've used 2.a and 2.b, you need to check what the hardware on the path is really doing with a packet that looks like the flow you're debugging. For this, you cannot change any of the familiar header fields to help you capture the packet at the egress, because that could change the hash result on the way (This isn't theoretical - I know of asics that hash on IP, trill header, tcp/udp, inner ethernet header, outer ethernet header). Since you need a probe packet that looks just like a real flow, your best bet is to clone the real flow packet, but with an invalid IP checksum and then send it out with incrementing ttl values. -- Sunny Rajagopalan From: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" <rwatve@cisco.com> To: Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <rbridge@postel.org> Date: 03/16/2012 06:38 PM Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Santosh, I had a question about following: 2. c) Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path. How do you prevent OAM packets with Invalid IP checksum from leaking out to customers? Thanks Rohit From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM To: rbridge@postel.org Cc: Santosh Rajagopalan Subject: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam Hi, We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls for a revised draft with the best ideas from both. draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc. The major reason for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have some suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam without using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be rightly queried from a MIB. I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that would be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNMP query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look at the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they have a place here. Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis: 1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (it does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connectivity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting the two. One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the echo request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie could be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The response could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If the sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanism then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a feature borrowed from ethernet OAM. 2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implementations usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enumerate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow would take are good to have features. Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achieve this: a. Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel message to the respective roots, M=1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint you a picture of the different trees. b. Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "all-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address of the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enumerate all possible pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac to be all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itself to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requirement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternative inner dmacs where needed. c. Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path. d. Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Construct the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only on the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path from the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, and repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow you to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination. e. Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path. Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving the objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are technically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objective. 3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a part of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam needs to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge channel to achieve this. 4) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethernet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/receive delays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote discovery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just login to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly, or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionality which is better done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-trill-oam should be taken out. 5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is probably done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "show l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB. 6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being able to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic MIB walk case. 7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM draft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI. 8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this draft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags). best, Sunny Rajagopalan_______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --=_alternative 0061DDA8882579C6_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" <font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi, Rohit</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">You could have a packet or two leak to the host, and the host OS will drop it because of the invalid checksum (this number of drops would be at the level of noise for most systems). A more difficult alternative would be to have switches drop packets with an invalid IP checksum from leaving host-facing ports.</font> <br> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">1) You employ this method only after all your other means of debugging have failed to root cause the issue. This means that you've already used the means outlined below to trace the path that this packet <i>should </i> be taking (2.a and 2.b below, which use the rbridge channel header and result in no leaks). </font> <br> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">2) After you've used 2.a and 2.b, you need to check what the hardware on the path is <i>really </i>doing with a packet that looks like the flow you're debugging. For this, you cannot change any of the familiar header fields to help you capture the packet at the egress, because that could change the hash result on the way (This isn't theoretical - I know of asics that hash on IP, trill header, tcp/udp, inner ethernet header, outer ethernet header). Since you need a probe packet that looks just like a real flow, your best bet is to clone the real flow packet, but with an invalid IP checksum and then send it out with incrementing ttl values.</font> <br> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">--</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Sunny Rajagopalan</font> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:        </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"Rohit Watve (rwatve)" <rwatve@cisco.com></font> <br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:        </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <rbridge@postel.org></font> <br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:        </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/16/2012 06:38 PM</font> <br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:        </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam        anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam</font> <br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by:        </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</font> <br> <hr noshade> <br> <br> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">Hi Santosh,</font> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">I had a question about following:</font> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">2. c) </font><font size=2 face="Courier New">Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.</font> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">How do you prevent OAM packets with Invalid IP checksum from leaking out to customers?</font> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">Thanks<br> Rohit</font> <br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font> <br><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> rbridge-bounces@postel.org [</font><a href="mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><font size=2 face="Tahoma">mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org</font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Santosh Rajagopalan<b><br> Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM<b><br> To:</b> rbridge@postel.org<b><br> Cc:</b> Santosh Rajagopalan<b><br> Subject:</b> [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam</font> <br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font> <br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font> <br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font> <br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Hi,<br> We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls for a revised draft with the best ideas from both.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc.  The major reason for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have some suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam without using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be rightly queried from a MIB.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that would be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNMP query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look at the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they have a place here.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> 1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (it does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connectivity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting the two.  One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the echo request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie could be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The response could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If the sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanism then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a feature borrowed from ethernet OAM.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> 2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implementations usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enumerate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow would take are good to have features. <br> Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achieve this:</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">a.        </font><font size=2 face="Courier New">Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel message to the respective roots, M=1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint you a picture of the different trees.</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">b.        </font><font size=2 face="Courier New">Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "all-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address of the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enumerate all possible pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac to be all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itself to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requirement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternative inner dmacs where needed.</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">c.        </font><font size=2 face="Courier New">Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">d.        </font><font size=2 face="Courier New">Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Construct the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only on the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path from the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, and repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow you to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination.</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">e.        </font><font size=2 face="Courier New">Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.</font> <br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving the objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are technically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objective.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> 3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a part of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam needs to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge channel to achieve this.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> 4) draft-tissa-trill-oam  has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethernet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/receive delays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote discovery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just login to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly, or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionality which is better done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-trill-oam should be taken out.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> 5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is probably done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "show l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> 6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being able to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic MIB walk case.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> 7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM draft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> 8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this draft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br> best,<br> Sunny Rajagopalan</font><tt><font size=2>_______________________________________________<br> rbridge mailing list<br> rbridge@postel.org<br> </font></tt><a href=http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge><tt><font size=2>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br> </font></tt> <br> --=_alternative 0061DDA8882579C6_=-- --===============0786058506== Content-Type: text/plain; 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X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiQFAP6dZ0+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCgkarEgGIfoEHggkBAQEEAQEBDwEHAgsGAz4LEAIBCA4DAwEBAQsGBgEJBwEGASYfCQgBAQQBEggah2cBC5djnwWKQ4J8AYJCYwSIVolgApFwgWiDBoE0Ag X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,614,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="36781479" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Mar 2012 21:01:57 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2JL1vpK027149; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:01:57 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:01:57 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:01:56 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5C7FF0F@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <OF785471D9.96C20091-ON872579C6.005F99B6-882579C6.0061DDA8@us.ibm.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] mergingdraft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam Thread-Index: Ac0F+pf6Mv+v2TeRQ2yjNyLPggzJLQAFk4Rg References: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> <EF74E90D-AC4C-4798-88CD-ACF3035E268D@us.ibm.com><CD31C838133B34469D6E01406350E68C0E8A563E@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> <OF785471D9.96C20091-ON872579C6.005F99B6-882579C6.0061DDA8@us.ibm.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> To: "Santosh Rajagopalan" <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com>, "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" <rwatve@cisco.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2012 21:01:57.0416 (UTC) FILETIME=[854CCA80:01CD0613] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org, rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] mergingdraft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1856734967==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1856734967== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0613.850383BB" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0613.850383BB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Santosh =20 One cannot assume when troubleshooting an issue it will be only be limited to few packets. (we all will be very happy if it was the case but it never the norm but rather the exception) Secondly in hosting environments, where network provider has no control on end systems this kind of things generate unwanted support calls. We should not be designing OAM protocol based on this assumption. =20 Also 2.a and 2.b will not allow you to verify IP payload, something working for 2.a and 2.b does not gurantee that IP is working. =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:48 AM To: Rohit Watve (rwatve) Cc: rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] mergingdraft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam =20 Hi, Rohit=20 You could have a packet or two leak to the host, and the host OS will drop it because of the invalid checksum (this number of drops would be at the level of noise for most systems). A more difficult alternative would be to have switches drop packets with an invalid IP checksum from leaving host-facing ports.=20 1) You employ this method only after all your other means of debugging have failed to root cause the issue. This means that you've already used the means outlined below to trace the path that this packet should be taking (2.a and 2.b below, which use the rbridge channel header and result in no leaks).=20 2) After you've used 2.a and 2.b, you need to check what the hardware on the path is really doing with a packet that looks like the flow you're debugging. For this, you cannot change any of the familiar header fields to help you capture the packet at the egress, because that could change the hash result on the way (This isn't theoretical - I know of asics that hash on IP, trill header, tcp/udp, inner ethernet header, outer ethernet header). Since you need a probe packet that looks just like a real flow, your best bet is to clone the real flow packet, but with an invalid IP checksum and then send it out with incrementing ttl values.=20 --=20 Sunny Rajagopalan=20 From: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" <rwatve@cisco.com>=20 To: Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <rbridge@postel.org>=20 Date: 03/16/2012 06:38 PM=20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam=20 Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 ________________________________ Hi Santosh,=20 =20 I had a question about following:=20 2. c) Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.=20 =20 How do you prevent OAM packets with Invalid IP checksum from leaking out to customers?=20 =20 Thanks Rohit=20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM To: rbridge@postel.org Cc: Santosh Rajagopalan Subject: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam=20 =20 =20 =20 Hi, We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls for a revised draft with the best ideas from both. draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc. The major reason for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have some suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam without using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be rightly queried from a MIB. I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that would be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNMP query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look at the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they have a place here. Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis: 1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (it does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connectivity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting the two. One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the echo request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie could be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The response could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If the sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanism then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a feature borrowed from ethernet OAM. 2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implementations usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enumerate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow would take are good to have features.=20 Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achieve this:=20 a. Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel message to the respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint you a picture of the different trees.=20 b. Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "all-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address of the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enumerate all possible pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac to be all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itself to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requirement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternative inner dmacs where needed.=20 c. Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.=20 d. Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Construct the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only on the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path from the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, and repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow you to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination.=20 e. Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.=20 Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving the objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are technically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objective. 3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a part of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam needs to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge channel to achieve this. 4) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethernet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/receive delays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote discovery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just login to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly, or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionality which is better done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-trill-oam should be taken out. 5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is probably done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "show l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB.=20 6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being able to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic MIB walk case. 7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM draft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI. 8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this draft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags). best, Sunny Rajagopalan_______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0613.850383BB Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:x=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 = (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} tt {mso-style-priority:99; font-family:"Courier New";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Santosh<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>One  cannot assume when troubleshooting an issue it will be only = be limited to few packets. (we all will be very happy if it was the case = but it never the norm but rather the exception) Secondly in hosting = environments, where network provider has no control on end systems this = kind of things generate unwanted support calls.  We should not be = designing OAM protocol based on this assumption.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Also 2.a and 2.b will not allow you to verify IP payload, something = working for 2.a and 2.b does not gurantee that IP is = working.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>Santosh Rajagopalan<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 19, 2012 = 10:48 AM<br><b>To:</b> Rohit Watve (rwatve)<br><b>Cc:</b> = rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: = [rbridge] mergingdraft-tissa-trill-oam = anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi, = Rohit</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>You could = have a packet or two leak to the host, and the host OS will drop it = because of the invalid checksum (this number of drops would be at the = level of noise for most systems). A more difficult alternative would be = to have switches drop packets with an invalid IP checksum from leaving = host-facing ports.</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1) You = employ this method only after all your other means of debugging have = failed to root cause the issue. This means that you've already used the = means outlined below to trace the path that this packet <i>should = </i> be taking (2.a and 2.b below, which use the rbridge channel = header and result in no leaks). </span><br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2) After = you've used 2.a and 2.b, you need to check what the hardware on the path = is <i>really </i>doing with a packet that looks like the flow you're = debugging. For this, you cannot change any of the familiar header fields = to help you capture the packet at the egress, because that could change = the hash result on the way (This isn't theoretical - I know of asics = that hash on IP, trill header, tcp/udp, inner ethernet header, outer = ethernet header). Since you need a probe packet that looks just like a = real flow, your best bet is to clone the real flow packet, but with an = invalid IP checksum and then send it out with incrementing ttl = values.</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>--</span> = <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sunny = Rajagopalan</span> <br><br><br><br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>= From:        </span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Rohit = Watve (rwatve)" <<a = href=3D"mailto:rwatve@cisco.com">rwatve@cisco.com</a>></span> = <br><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>= To:        </span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Santosh = Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <<a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>></span> = <br><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>= Date:        </span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>03/16/2012 = 06:38 PM</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>= Subject:        </span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [rbridge] = merging draft-tissa-trill-oam       =  anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>= Sent by:        </span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= </span> <o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" noshade = style=3D'color:#A0A0A0' align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'>Hi Santosh,</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'>I had a question about following:</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'>2. c) </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'>Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend = building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow = (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the = rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all = match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure = that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid = (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out = successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that = you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and = relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.</span> = <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'>How do you prevent OAM packets with Invalid IP checksum from leaking = out to customers?</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'>Thanks<br>Rohit</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00408= 0'> </span> <br><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= [</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>Santosh Rajagopalan<b><br>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 06, = 2012 8:49 AM<b><br>To:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a><b><br>Cc:</b> = Santosh Rajagopalan<b><br>Subject:</b> [rbridge] merging = draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam</span> <br>  = <br>  <br>  <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Hi,<br>We currently = have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam = and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls for a = revised draft with the best ideas from both.</span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'><br>draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc. =  The major reason for this dependency seems to be for multipath = path discovery, and I have some suggestions as to how to fix this in = draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam without using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam = also has several features which should be rightly queried from a = MIB.</span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'><br>I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating = actions that would be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. = So querying counters has no place here, because you could easily figure = them out by doing an SNMP query or by logging into the switch. I also = think it's worthwhile to look at the features traditionally supported in = ethernet OAM and to see if they have a place here.</span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>Using = draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis:</span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>1) = Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (it = does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify = connectivity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of = connecting the two.  One suggestion I have here is to be able to = include a cookie in the echo request message which gets reflected back = by the receiver. This cookie could be used to include the sender's = timestamp in the ping message. The response could then be used to = measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If the sender and receiver's = clocks are synchronized using some external mechanism then this can also = be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a feature borrowed = from ethernet OAM.</span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>2) Traceroute: = IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (you could = use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implementations = usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with = appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you = "a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". = However, being able to enumerate all possible paths, as well as to = pinpoint the particular path a flow would take are good to have = features. <br>Here're the modifications needed in = draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achieve this:</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>a.   =      </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Multicast unpruned = tree discovery: you can discover all existing unpruned multicast trees = by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel message to the = respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges". = Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message = with incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will = tell you what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge = will paint you a picture of the different trees.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>b.   =      </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Multicast pruned = tree discovery: just do a), but replace the = "all-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with = the mac address of the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge = field, this will enumerate all possible pruned trees for that group. = Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam uses = draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac to be = all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itself = to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac = requirement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for = alternative inner dmacs where needed.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>c.   =      </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Multicast pruned = tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with = an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header = fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel = header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that = of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked = packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum = is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with = the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a = "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received = ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d.   =      </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Unicast path = discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying to ping. = Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Construct = the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, its a = local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This = is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only on = the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an = echo request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you = "a" path from the source to the destination rbridge. Increment = the dmac used earlier, and repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the = inner dmac, so this will allow you to enumerate all possible paths from = source to destination.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>e.   =      </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Unicast path = discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for multicast, = construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, L4 = headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. = However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP = checksum to be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. = Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the = network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the = path.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'>Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while = preserving the objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets = generated are technically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to = achieve a certain objective.</span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>3) Fault = notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a part of = the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam needs = to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge = channel to achieve this.</span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>4) = draft-tissa-trill-oam  has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in = Ethernet OAM is performance management by checking counters and = send/receive delays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter = measurements using ping (as described earlier). I frankly don't see the = benefit to including remote discovery of counters in this OAM proposal. = The administrator can always just login to the rbridge of interest and = get a read-out of the counters directly, or use snmp remotely. We = shouldnt be replicating functionality which is better done elsewhere, = and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-trill-oam should = be taken out.</span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>5) I don't see = any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is probably done = most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a = "show l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB. </span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>6) = draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being = able to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding = is). This is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - = this is a classic MIB walk case.</span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>7) Address = binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM draft, and = besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the = CLI.</span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'><br>8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of = scope of this draft, and is too vendor specific (it uses = VN-tags).</span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'><br>best,<br>Sunny = Rajagopalan<tt>_______________________________________________</tt><br><t= t>rbridge mailing list</tt><br><tt><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a></tt><br></span>= <a href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><tt><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbr= idge</span></tt></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0613.850383BB-- --===============1856734967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1856734967==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 19 15:07:00 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205B221F86EA for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:07:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.665 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.665 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.536, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wK9pYtluKQFW for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67B921F86E3 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2JLhJCc015732; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f52.google.com (mail-pz0-f52.google.com [209.85.210.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2JLgZS2015696 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dadp12 with SMTP id p12so12173629dad.39 for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:42:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=OsroRbJA72Aj3wkuFmxYbooRkltaJFJoTMiK2GeXUbo=; b=QayNtAf81m+uLaf2KMDGYbbMW5/UkkInSfH/VxzcBwYw33wWz4lns9x7D8eRK/tCXC HVj1DmGiWPJ+41ooKoMEliZCMWJnBQnX2/8k8RSvZ2yeTol363H4j8odzQMLI+1RSYwV xt/IeveAnLMMOeIiuklj2KmFvO/mfrBGTqhiqR6gy+71JZ0LKMHYa1d5ISQSwG0W5alo kPyBfTGzNYVKKNKfMbsfkoJ/0VAEU4ylVg14MGIGL1CECAQLNU35iYM588x2ug5P6oKM Uaav5Hv7qOuJuI07NzA1zolwoaqi4uzOrrbMEiZm6v0aKp1BsLxglYnQjP1HxHB6JtlG 0arg== Received: by 10.68.235.42 with SMTP id uj10mr2476903pbc.109.1332193355254; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.255.118] ([12.207.18.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c8sm12125242pbf.71.2012.03.19.14.42.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:42:34 -0700 (PDT) References: <220BAABC-A9BB-497E-8ABA-9A7C65CFB6B6@us.ibm.com> <EF74E90D-AC4C-4798-88CD-ACF3035E268D@us.ibm.com> <CD31C838133B34469D6E01406350E68C0E8A563E@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> <OF785471D9.96C20091-ON872579C6.005F99B6-882579C6.0061DDA8@us.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <OF785471D9.96C20091-ON872579C6.005F99B6-882579C6.0061DDA8@us.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <31D37D0E-AF82-4D7B-95F2-4EE7562CC844@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B176) From: Sam Aldrin <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:42:32 -0700 To: Santosh Rajagopalan <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, "Rohit Watve \(rwatve\)" <rwatve@cisco.com>, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0196761951==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0196761951== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C0B3092B-0143-4D93-8D14-8D7D826CD3EA --Apple-Mail-C0B3092B-0143-4D93-8D14-8D7D826CD3EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Santosh, Be it one packet or two, leaking OAM packets to the hosts is big no no in an= y kind of networks. Secondly, order of doing OAM, like doing trace after ping etc, is more of a p= rocedural thing than specification. One cannot just assume every user does t= he same, given the tools at hand. Cheers Sam Sent from my iPad On Mar 19, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan <sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.= com> wrote: > Hi, Rohit=20 > You could have a packet or two leak to the host, and the host OS will drop= it because of the invalid checksum (this number of drops would be at the le= vel of noise for most systems). A more difficult alternative would be to hav= e switches drop packets with an invalid IP checksum from leaving host-facing= ports.=20 >=20 > 1) You employ this method only after all your other means of debugging hav= e failed to root cause the issue. This means that you've already used the me= ans outlined below to trace the path that this packet should be taking (2.a= and 2.b below, which use the rbridge channel header and result in no leaks)= .=20 >=20 > 2) After you've used 2.a and 2.b, you need to check what the hardware on t= he path is really doing with a packet that looks like the flow you're debugg= ing. For this, you cannot change any of the familiar header fields to help y= ou capture the packet at the egress, because that could change the hash resu= lt on the way (This isn't theoretical - I know of asics that hash on IP, tri= ll header, tcp/udp, inner ethernet header, outer ethernet header). Since you= need a probe packet that looks just like a real flow, your best bet is to c= lone the real flow packet, but with an invalid IP checksum and then send it o= ut with incrementing ttl values.=20 >=20 > --=20 > Sunny Rajagopalan=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" <rwatve@cisco.com>=20 > To: Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <rbridge@postel.org>= =20 > Date: 03/16/2012 06:38 PM=20 > Subject: Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraf= t-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam=20 > Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Santosh,=20 > =20 > I had a question about following:=20 > 2. c) Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend b= uilding a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (wit= h the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channe= l header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that o= f the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packet= s get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never u= sed for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field i= n incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into t= he network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the pat= h.=20 > =20 > How do you prevent OAM packets with Invalid IP checksum from leaking out t= o customers?=20 > =20 > Thanks > Rohit=20 > =20 > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Be= half Of Santosh Rajagopalan > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM > To: rbridge@postel.org > Cc: Santosh Rajagopalan > Subject: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbrid= ge-oam=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > Hi, > We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-= rbridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls f= or a revised draft with the best ideas from both. >=20 > draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc. The major reas= on for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have s= ome suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam withou= t using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be r= ightly queried from a MIB. >=20 > I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that woul= d be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters= has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNM= P query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look a= t the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they ha= ve a place here. >=20 > Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis: >=20 > 1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (i= t does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connecti= vity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting th= e two. One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the e= cho request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie c= ould be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The resp= onse could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If th= e sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanis= m then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a f= eature borrowed from ethernet OAM. >=20 > 2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (= you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implementa= tions usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with= appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" p= ath to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enume= rate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow w= ould take are good to have features.=20 > Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achiev= e this:=20 > a. Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing= unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channe= l message to the respective roots, M=3D1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridge= s". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message wit= h incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you= what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint y= ou a picture of the different trees.=20 > b. Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "al= l-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address o= f the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enume= rate all possible pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rb= ridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dm= ac to be all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by it= self to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requ= irement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternat= ive inner dmacs where needed.=20 > c. Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recomme= nd building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (= with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge cha= nnel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with tha= t of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked pac= kets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is neve= r used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl fiel= d in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet in= to the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the= path.=20 > d. Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch yo= u're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner D= MAC. Construct the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basic= ally, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value= . This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only o= n the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an e= cho request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path fr= om the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, a= nd repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow y= ou to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination.=20 > e. Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we= did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac= address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to de= bug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP chec= ksum to be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that y= ou're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on receive= d ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.=20 > Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving t= he objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are techn= ically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objecti= ve. >=20 > 3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a p= art of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam ne= eds to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge c= hannel to achieve this. >=20 > 4) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethe= rnet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/receive del= ays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as= described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote dis= covery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just l= ogin to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly,= or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionality which is bet= ter done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-tr= ill-oam should be taken out. >=20 > 5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is prob= ably done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "s= how l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB.=20 >=20 > 6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being a= ble to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This i= s again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic= MIB walk case. >=20 > 7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM dra= ft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI. >=20 > 8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this d= raft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags). >=20 > best, > Sunny Rajagopalan_______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail-C0B3092B-0143-4D93-8D14-8D7D826CD3EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Hi Santosh,</div><div><br></div><div>Be it one packet or two, leaking OAM packets to the hosts is big no no in any kind of networks.</div><div>Secondly, order of doing OAM, like doing trace after ping etc, is more of a procedural thing than specification. One cannot just assume every user does the same, given the tools at hand.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Sam</div><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Mar 19, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Santosh Rajagopalan <<a href="mailto:sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com">sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Hi, Rohit</font> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">You could have a packet or two leak to the host, and the host OS will drop it because of the invalid checksum (this number of drops would be at the level of noise for most systems). A more difficult alternative would be to have switches drop packets with an invalid IP checksum from leaving host-facing ports.</font> <br> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">1) You employ this method only after all your other means of debugging have failed to root cause the issue. This means that you've already used the means outlined below to trace the path that this packet <i>should </i> be taking (2.a and 2.b below, which use the rbridge channel header and result in no leaks). </font> <br> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">2) After you've used 2.a and 2.b, you need to check what the hardware on the path is <i>really </i>doing with a packet that looks like the flow you're debugging. For this, you cannot change any of the familiar header fields to help you capture the packet at the egress, because that could change the hash result on the way (This isn't theoretical - I know of asics that hash on IP, trill header, tcp/udp, inner ethernet header, outer ethernet header). Since you need a probe packet that looks just like a real flow, your best bet is to clone the real flow packet, but with an invalid IP checksum and then send it out with incrementing ttl values.</font> <br> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">--</font> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Sunny Rajagopalan</font> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">From:        </font><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"Rohit Watve (rwatve)" <<a href="mailto:rwatve@cisco.com">rwatve@cisco.com</a>></font> <br><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:        </font><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <<a href="mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>></font> <br><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:        </font><font size="1" face="sans-serif">03/16/2012 06:38 PM</font> <br><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:        </font><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam        anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam</font> <br><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Sent by:        </font><font size="1" face="sans-serif"><a href="mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a></font> <br> <hr noshade=""> <br> <br> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri">Hi Santosh,</font> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri"> </font> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri">I had a question about following:</font> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri">2. c) </font><font size="2" face="Courier New">Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.</font> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri"> </font> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri">How do you prevent OAM packets with Invalid IP checksum from leaking out to customers?</font> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri"> </font> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri">Thanks<br> Rohit</font> <br><font size="2" color="#004080" face="Calibri"> </font> <br><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a> [</font><a href="mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org</font></a><font size="2" face="Tahoma">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Santosh Rajagopalan<b><br> Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 06, 2012 8:49 AM<b><br> To:</b> <a href="mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a><b><br> Cc:</b> Santosh Rajagopalan<b><br> Subject:</b> [rbridge] merging draft-tissa-trill-oam anddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam</font> <br><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font> <br><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font> <br><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font> <br><font size="2" face="Courier New">Hi,<br> We currently have two competing approaches to TRILL OAM, draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam and draft-tissa-trill-oam. Both have their merits, which calls for a revised draft with the best ideas from both.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> draft-tissa-trill-oam has a dependancy on IP/ICMP/ARP etc.  The major reason for this dependency seems to be for multipath path discovery, and I have some suggestions as to how to fix this in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam without using IP. draft-tissa-trill-oam also has several features which should be rightly queried from a MIB.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> I think the OAM draft should concentrate on facilitating actions that would be difficult or impossible to perform in its absence. So querying counters has no place here, because you could easily figure them out by doing an SNMP query or by logging into the switch. I also think it's worthwhile to look at the features traditionally supported in ethernet OAM and to see if they have a place here.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> Using draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam as a basis:</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> 1) Ping/loopback: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam handles this well enough (it does need a multicast addition). The purpose of ping is to verify connectivity between two rbridges, not to discover the various ways of connecting the two.  One suggestion I have here is to be able to include a cookie in the echo request message which gets reflected back by the receiver. This cookie could be used to include the sender's timestamp in the ping message. The response could then be used to measure round-trip path latency and jitter. If the sender and receiver's clocks are synchronized using some external mechanism then this can also be used to measure one-way delay and jitter. This is a feature borrowed from ethernet OAM.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> 2) Traceroute: IP traceroute doesn't rely on icmp for the outgoing packet (you could use ICMP, but that's a different matter). In fact, UNIX implementations usually just send UDP packets with port numbers in the 33K range, with appropriate TTL values. Note that traceroute in the IP world gives you "a" path to a destination, not "all possible paths". However, being able to enumerate all possible paths, as well as to pinpoint the particular path a flow would take are good to have features. <br> Here're the modifications needed in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam to achieve this:</font> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">a.        </font><font size="2" face="Courier New">Multicast unpruned tree discovery: you can discover all existing unpruned multicast trees by setting the erbridge value of an rbridge channel message to the respective roots, M=1 and the dmac to "all-egress-rbridges". Just like regular ping, you can send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values, and the ttl expiry messages you get will tell you what the unpruned tree looks like. Changing the egress_rbridge will paint you a picture of the different trees.</font> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">b.        </font><font size="2" face="Courier New">Multicast pruned tree discovery: just do a), but replace the "all-egress-rbridges" multicast address in the inner dmac with the mac address of the multicast group. As you vary the egress_rbridge field, this will enumerate all possible pruned trees for that group. Note that draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam uses draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel, which requires the inner dmac to be all-egress-rbridges. However, the ethertype field can be used by itself to classify an OAM packet, and I am advocating that the inner dmac requirement in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel be relaxed to allow for alternative inner dmacs where needed.</font> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">c.        </font><font size="2" face="Courier New">Multicast pruned tree discovery for a particular flow: I recommend building a packet with an empty payload which looks like the actual flow (with the header fields from the flow being tested instead of the rbridge channel header). The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid (the IP checksum is never used for the ecmp hash). Now send out successive packets with the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.</font> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">d.        </font><font size="2" face="Courier New">Unicast path discovery: the erbridge ID is that of the switch you're trying to ping. Let's send this echo request message with a fake inner DMAC. Construct the dmac so that the U/L bit is 1 and the I/G bit is 0 (basically, its a local scope unicast mac). Set the last 32 bits to a random value. This is a fake mac address, but that's ok because the network routes only on the erbridge anyway. The M bit in the TRILL header is 0. Send this as an echo request message with incrementing ttl values. This gives you "a" path from the source to the destination rbridge. Increment the dmac used earlier, and repeat. All rbridges hash at least on the inner dmac, so this will allow you to enumerate all possible paths from source to destination.</font> <br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">e.        </font><font size="2" face="Courier New">Unicast path discovery for a particular flow: Similar to what we did for multicast, construct a real packet of length 0. The IP address, mac address, L4 headers etc all match with that of the flow you're trying to debug. However, to ensure that any leaked packets get dropped, set the IP checksum to be invalid. Now set the ttl field in incrementing values. Note that you're sending a "pseudo-real" packet into the network and relying on received ttl expiry messages to figure out the path.</font> <br><font size="2" face="Courier New">Note that doing this eliminates the reliance on IP/ICMP, while preserving the objectives of draft-tissa-trill-oam. The fake packets generated are technically not OAM packets, just suggestions on how to achieve a certain objective.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> 3) Fault notification: although neither draft talks about this, this is a part of the ethernet OAM feature set. I think draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam needs to mention that the expectation is that BFD will work over the rbridge channel to achieve this.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> 4) draft-tissa-trill-oam  has a big section on TTM. The equivalent in Ethernet OAM is performance management by checking counters and send/receive delays, etc. We can cover send/receive delay/jitter measurements using ping (as described earlier). I frankly don't see the benefit to including remote discovery of counters in this OAM proposal. The administrator can always just login to the rbridge of interest and get a read-out of the counters directly, or use snmp remotely. We shouldnt be replicating functionality which is better done elsewhere, and I think this entire section on TTM in draft-tissa-trill-oam should be taken out.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> 5) I don't see any benefits to DRB/AF discovery OAM messages. This is probably done most easily by logging into the rbridge in question and doing a "show l2 isis", or extending the SNMP MIB. </font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> 6) draft-tissa-trill-oam has a section on MAC discovery (basically, being able to query all rbridges to see what their rbridge<->mac binding is). This is again something that should be best queried using SNMP - this is a classic MIB walk case.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> 7) Address binding verification should be out of scope for a TRILL OAM draft, and besides, should just be queried at the rbridge with the CLI.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> 8) End-Station Attachment Point Discovery: should be out of scope of this draft, and is too vendor specific (it uses VN-tags).</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br> </font><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br> best,<br> Sunny Rajagopalan</font><tt><font size="2">_______________________________________________<br> rbridge mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a><br> </font></tt><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><tt><font size="2">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</font></tt></a><tt><font size="2"><br> </font></tt> <br></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>rbridge mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html> --Apple-Mail-C0B3092B-0143-4D93-8D14-8D7D826CD3EA-- --===============0196761951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0196761951==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 20 14:57:53 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF3D21E801F for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.073 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.073 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.474, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9xErGa-M6vBT for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68C321E800F for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2KLcv96000344; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com (e1.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.141]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2KLcC9t029963 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e1.ny.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:37:06 -0400 Received: from d01relay06.pok.ibm.com (d01relay06.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.116]) by d01dlp02.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DC06E804C for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay06.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2KLb50O3010622 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:37:05 -0400 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2KLb4gs008746 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:37:04 -0300 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (sig-9-76-141-98.mts.ibm.com [9.76.141.98]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2KLb3xi008637 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:37:04 -0300 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id q2KLb2Eq008692; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:37:02 -0400 Message-Id: <201203202137.q2KLb2Eq008692@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> In-reply-to: <CAF4+nEG46yv1z_GrTpg0n1RhfWsMpBr6p50roMWf16KTHtY9TA@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAF4+nEG46yv1z_GrTpg0n1RhfWsMpBr6p50roMWf16KTHtY9TA@mail.gmail.com> Comments: In-reply-to Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> message dated "Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:33:33 -0400." Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:37:02 -0400 From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12032021-6078-0000-0000-00000942CD52 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: narten@us.ibm.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org > A draft TRILL WG agenda for the Paris meeting has been posted to the > meeting materials page > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html Looking at this agenda, my gut feeling is that it tries to cover too many drafts and doesn't really have enough time do so effectively. Most of the presentations get 10 minutes. That isn't enough time to have any substantive discussion. IMO, too many ten minute presentations are a waste of time. Moreover, the vast majority of IDs are not even WG documents, so their individual status within the WG is unclear. I am having trouble figuring out which ones the WG actually cares about (and I should spend time on) and which ones the WG really doesn't think need to be pursued, at least not now. For example, does anyone who wants agenda time automatically get a slot just for asking? What sort of filtering takes place? On the OAM topic, IMO, that is a critical one for the WG. TRILL does not yet have a published RFC on TRILL. That is a critical deficiency. Right now, a total of 30 minutes is devoted to OAM, covering the WG document and two non-WG documents. Each gets 10 minutes time... It would help me if the Chairs and/or WG added a note to each agenda item and described what the purpose of the presentation is for. Is it to ask to make something a WG documnt? Is it for something else? And how many of the IDs that are being presented have been presented before, with the WG not agreeing to take them on as a work item? As I said back in Taipei, I think this WG needs to focus on getting some of its core deliverables done. I'd like to encourage the chairs and WG to think much more critically about the proposed agenda and whether it makes good use of the WG's time. Thomas _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 20 19:47:27 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC83B21E8027 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:47:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.439 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.160, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EPtRSz4DdppG for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A8F21E801A for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2L2Mpqv011025; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2L2LxWP010939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:22:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=2476; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332296528; x=1333506128; h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date: message-id:in-reply-to:references:from:to:cc; bh=Erv+paumsnYkj3Ys9jkMGQ7jQ2GMb/4223vxaBo4jFo=; b=AvdbO3ZZn9qTwkO+ATACM+CHX0LybVLrdU7x4lq8h/eradL35G4qjBJV szdm/7FPXPkmyc84Agnc/rSYgzS33c+WGJBVulIL717Ef+FB2Pv4Tcy/M tgCQpUeZaohljwNye3wIYWpuD69dQsabooVL9KbqrcQZ0ln9xm9/CODHN s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFAO86aU+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABEtnCBB4IJAQEBAwEBAQEPAR0KNAsFBwQCAQgRBAEBCwYXAQYBJh8JCAEBBAESCBqHYwQBC5dyjU6RXpAeYwSIVptHgWiDBw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,621,1325462400"; d="scan'208";a="36990938" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Mar 2012 02:21:58 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2L2Lwi3018775; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 02:21:58 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:21:58 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:21:57 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5D0FBDB@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <201203202137.q2KLb2Eq008692@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted Thread-Index: Ac0G5RVI8xMOLceQRXmT6sZeN2tm3AAI3YMw References: <CAF4+nEG46yv1z_GrTpg0n1RhfWsMpBr6p50roMWf16KTHtY9TA@mail.gmail.com> <201203202137.q2KLb2Eq008692@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>, "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2012 02:21:58.0758 (UTC) FILETIME=[649AD060:01CD0709] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2L2LxWP010939 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Thomas Agree with you that we need to prioritize OAM and put that on critical path. Below you indicated that for 3 OAM drafts, 30 minutes allocated, you mean to indicate that it is too much time or it is not sufficient and need more time ? Thanks Tissa -----Original Message----- From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Narten Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 2:37 PM To: Donald Eastlake Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted > A draft TRILL WG agenda for the Paris meeting has been posted to the > meeting materials page > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html Looking at this agenda, my gut feeling is that it tries to cover too many drafts and doesn't really have enough time do so effectively. Most of the presentations get 10 minutes. That isn't enough time to have any substantive discussion. IMO, too many ten minute presentations are a waste of time. Moreover, the vast majority of IDs are not even WG documents, so their individual status within the WG is unclear. I am having trouble figuring out which ones the WG actually cares about (and I should spend time on) and which ones the WG really doesn't think need to be pursued, at least not now. For example, does anyone who wants agenda time automatically get a slot just for asking? What sort of filtering takes place? On the OAM topic, IMO, that is a critical one for the WG. TRILL does not yet have a published RFC on TRILL. That is a critical deficiency. Right now, a total of 30 minutes is devoted to OAM, covering the WG document and two non-WG documents. Each gets 10 minutes time... It would help me if the Chairs and/or WG added a note to each agenda item and described what the purpose of the presentation is for. Is it to ask to make something a WG documnt? Is it for something else? And how many of the IDs that are being presented have been presented before, with the WG not agreeing to take them on as a work item? As I said back in Taipei, I think this WG needs to focus on getting some of its core deliverables done. I'd like to encourage the chairs and WG to think much more critically about the proposed agenda and whether it makes good use of the WG's time. Thomas _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 20 20:18:20 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C9421F84D8 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:18:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.709, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9tXTiZIJebtR for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D8B21F84D3 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2L365Fa016802; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2L35eXO016769 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so913844lah.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:05:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xfLsjqB4SAnlzA/vvSR6qcp5b2pZ5Ia4uXWaxwOfsWw=; b=iM74s9S08R4MMYLVmBztXdoZoB9La/DKaIY55IuZRrLzjUe81LGzR1iVpLal/mtF5N JZyqpUOzGRmBdsZHFem2fjyPpR0YAICSUJPYMe5Im2XF9HG/uymKDtLc3hjK56rkTjXH HOobVZARYglFsuIsM2BnRIhnDF5R0/LrX7PYScuEk63UFe67haurfBGOIzN4Akix+WMc GOlOI4iQkRF7pdO9NIRWLofqTV5dqXt+Qaff+9aJtCtL2bZMkm10YySjVFyk/ac066gP Mm8D/N/kyMUaXs3UtQNxIJz5W8hvKEKjk/EGbfiq+eigsLaEnZtyDnhPVWuWf5xt6zMp ATqw== Received: by 10.112.23.39 with SMTP id j7mr782699lbf.87.1332299139670; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:05:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.128.40 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 20:05:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201203202137.q2KLb2Eq008692@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> References: <CAF4+nEG46yv1z_GrTpg0n1RhfWsMpBr6p50roMWf16KTHtY9TA@mail.gmail.com> <201203202137.q2KLb2Eq008692@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:05:19 -0400 Message-ID: <CAF4+nEH0y6qpLG-+1s_OmFOcdVQMeM_d1byd0BpBAw-2i3ZG6g@mail.gmail.com> To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2L35eXO016769 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Thomas, On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote: >> A draft TRILL WG agenda for the Paris meeting has been posted to the >> meeting materials page >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html > > Looking at this agenda, my gut feeling is that it tries to cover too > many drafts and doesn't really have enough time do so > effectively. Most of the presentations get 10 minutes. That isn't > enough time to have any substantive discussion. IMO, too many ten > minute presentations are a waste of time. Geez Thomas, you're always complaining :-) > Moreover, the vast majority of IDs are not even WG documents, so their > individual status within the WG is unclear. I am having trouble > figuring out which ones the WG actually cares about (and I should > spend time on) and which ones the WG really doesn't think need to be > pursued, at least not now. ... I believe that in all the cases of non-WG drafts at least the authors, and in many cases others, would like them to become WG drafts. Very vaguely speaking, I think the drafts earlier in the agenda are more important except that one specific Data Center Interconnect author asked to be on Friday and no other Data Center Interconnect author has objected so that cluster is on Friday. > On the OAM topic, IMO, that is a critical one for the WG. TRILL does > not yet have a published RFC on OAM. That is a critical deficiency. That's true but, while I know it is not what you are talking about, the MIB draft is pretty much approved except for the resolution of MIB Doctor comments and the BFD cluster has WG approval. The current question is how to resolve the different proposals for more capable OAM. > Right now, a total of 30 minutes is devoted to OAM, covering the WG > document and two non-WG documents. Each gets 10 minutes time... That's not exactly accurate but, in any case, I believe more time can be allotted to OAM by taking some of the other drafts currently on the agenda and just handling them on the mailing list. I do not agree that the WG cannot advance at all in other areas while resolving OAM. > It would help me if the Chairs and/or WG added a note to each agenda > item and described what the purpose of the presentation is for. Is it > to ask to make something a WG documnt? Is it for something else? And > how many of the IDs that are being presented have been presented > before, with the WG not agreeing to take them on as a work item? I'll post some annotations and suggested changes to the agenda tomorrow. For example, I think I'm willing to withdraw the presentations I was going to make and have them handled more sequentially on the mailing list. > As I said back in Taipei, I think this WG needs to focus on getting > some of its core deliverables done. I'd like to encourage the chairs > and WG to think much more critically about the proposed agenda and > whether it makes good use of the WG's time. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com > Thomas _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 20 21:36:58 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD73121E804C for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:36:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JxnPvWsyclhC for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C7A21E8012 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2L4Eah4026801; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f52.google.com (mail-pz0-f52.google.com [209.85.210.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2L4DupK026782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dadp12 with SMTP id p12so1333777dad.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:13:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=HHjS72ftIhTdSnZsW3nh8cwFgzzHnv5qaAVL1UEuAro=; b=eQdD1jF9ii8Xb7R00cXPjZnWfPPBtT5o4E5wM4RfAus4Z8SWyn0i4u07sRKFrZm9b6 cyXQKY0DKof2UDj2cQBhbmnYV7meS1QqaJG5dE4DwOvc/Wg+Y/GfC31+z4s9Ex8rfVpS EBtwIZlCGze7JmXwX2A/4Gfc19OjqSSOBh4VbMadRn5JfkYBWHr1AJnXglb+9Cr/STS6 vQYmcq0sBombgJCrdgdiVxtNYcxAXufCeXjkFPhfC552FvQ7MoUZ7oREfm0G4+qKGosz mKUHiOz1NwSOONtpMrl2sAg9ayWSej/jHPXWsJAeHzdyj3oeQrNxObrXJu2QeGFI5TgU QP5Q== Received: by 10.68.203.74 with SMTP id ko10mr7124694pbc.125.1332303236198; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.47.65.143] (mobile-166-205-137-152.mycingular.net. [166.205.137.152]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6sm409797pbh.65.2012.03.20.21.13.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:13:55 -0700 (PDT) References: <CAF4+nEG46yv1z_GrTpg0n1RhfWsMpBr6p50roMWf16KTHtY9TA@mail.gmail.com> <201203202137.q2KLb2Eq008692@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5D0FBDB@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5D0FBDB@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <79F6C34C-ABF5-4B0C-B841-93982124F7A5@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B176) From: Sam Aldrin <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:13:50 -0700 To: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2L4DupK026782 Cc: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thomas et al, Whilst I agree that oam should be given high priority, I disagree that oam work is not progressing. Mib and bfd have progressed quickly. In regards to ping and trace oam, there are reasons we were having discussions in the last ietf and over the mailing list. Hopefully we could close the remaining issues, very soon. I would rather prefer a well discussed solution rather than rushing an incomplete one to an rfc. Cheers Sam Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2012, at 7:21 PM, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi Thomas > > Agree with you that we need to prioritize OAM and put that on critical > path. > > Below you indicated that for 3 OAM drafts, 30 minutes allocated, you > mean to indicate that it is too much time or it is not sufficient and > need more time ? > > Thanks > Tissa > > -----Original Message----- > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On > Behalf Of Thomas Narten > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 2:37 PM > To: Donald Eastlake > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted > >> A draft TRILL WG agenda for the Paris meeting has been posted to the >> meeting materials page >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html > > Looking at this agenda, my gut feeling is that it tries to cover too > many drafts and doesn't really have enough time do so effectively. Most > of the presentations get 10 minutes. That isn't enough time to have any > substantive discussion. IMO, too many ten minute presentations are a > waste of time. > > Moreover, the vast majority of IDs are not even WG documents, so their > individual status within the WG is unclear. I am having trouble figuring > out which ones the WG actually cares about (and I should spend time on) > and which ones the WG really doesn't think need to be pursued, at least > not now. For example, does anyone who wants agenda time automatically > get a slot just for asking? What sort of filtering takes place? > > On the OAM topic, IMO, that is a critical one for the WG. TRILL does not > yet have a published RFC on TRILL. That is a critical deficiency. > > Right now, a total of 30 minutes is devoted to OAM, covering the WG > document and two non-WG documents. Each gets 10 minutes time... > > It would help me if the Chairs and/or WG added a note to each agenda > item and described what the purpose of the presentation is for. Is it to > ask to make something a WG documnt? Is it for something else? And how > many of the IDs that are being presented have been presented before, > with the WG not agreeing to take them on as a work item? > > As I said back in Taipei, I think this WG needs to focus on getting some > of its core deliverables done. I'd like to encourage the chairs and WG > to think much more critically about the proposed agenda and whether it > makes good use of the WG's time. > > Thomas > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 21 04:56:29 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36EF721F86A4 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 04:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UBpQD54nofdg for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 04:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CFDA21F869F for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 04:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LBg0rU003718; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 04:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f52.google.com (mail-yw0-f52.google.com [209.85.213.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LBfTjP003656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 04:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhpp61 with SMTP id p61so1177251yhp.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 04:41:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=TwOcnSFmu5eNB4rx7n5Wnrvsv8GIqBkXWctINSxpGnE=; b=OFNPrSCz0P75bSDzdIFTaCu08Xeec7u+82QrKfCWmJzR6V99Xi0J8viYBw9XQ1aeLZ EQdzYCfJKhSww0VnB+8wQukaZo3fOdktCT2+rSUUTW9JoZZpdOQC9sodIEGn/tdEqZk/ NedHIfk0foT8FFc/n5ro/LfGUr6E3W1eAbuEnibRN1ddjUEHGJmHcEZkRy2YFzsJY6WS 8/RjuD5G3aqg3xyUoYb1wPe5GdBgnpmnAPKZF3Pz827aiywYlU3s2ArEAIWc+UEfSry6 6Nb+WnbzfHJoecR5+X/FXdqV3Wv81QlIrdLflT5f1yUWB0IK1WJsiX04pfNLvYPlsj4l O0rw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.186.71 with SMTP id v47mr3338822yhm.115.1332330089211; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 04:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.146.103.2 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 04:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:11:29 +0530 Message-ID: <CAPFewY3aWMTEBWiTpzED94JkuUeKHQZ1P9+w0NWbaZzhZkfccA@mail.gmail.com> From: somnath chatterjee <somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com> To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com Subject: [rbridge] draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Authors, 1>In Section 4.1.1 two statements can be found which is ambiguous. In first paragraph "The M bit MUST be zero." and in sixth paragraph "The M bit MUST be zero for a known unicast ping." I think the ping tool should not be limited to unicast use only and should be allowed to be sent on distribution tree when used for multidestination frames/unknown unicast. It would be good to include excerpts from draft-yizhou-trill-multi-destination-ping in this OAM draft which talks about multi-destination ping, jitters etc. 2> It would be good if RBridges that implement TRILL- OAM does not decrement Hop count by more than one for OAM/Channel messages only. This would help us limiting the max hop count used for traceroute to be equal to the diameter of the campus. 3> If my understanding is correct there is no way to distinguish between pings reply and unicast traceroute reply(other than the error replies). An user may use both the tool concurrently or with minimal time gap. As such it would be hard to distinguish between the replies only with sequence number. I would suggest to use some unique identifier to differentiate between the two types of messages. 4> In Section 4.1.2.1 ". . . various forms of ECMP hashing based on fields such as MAC addresses, IP addresses, and/or TCP/UDP port numbers." Vlans may be added to the fields list. 5> In Section 4.1.2.2 Editorial changes for "One cannot use the diemater of the network . . ." should be replaced by "One cannot use the diameter of the network/campus" Thank you, Regards, Somnath _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 21 07:10:53 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B051621F86EB for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:10:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kWxbZqJMnvWq for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D958E21F84F0 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LDgKm2021560; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 06:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e8.ny.us.ibm.com (e8.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.138]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LDfpsV021496 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 06:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e8.ny.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted for <rbridge@postel.org> from <dmbond@us.ibm.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:41:50 -0400 Received: from d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (9.56.224.56) by e8.ny.us.ibm.com (192.168.1.108) with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:41:48 -0400 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76E538C8062 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2LDfhRV322120 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:41:45 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2LDfde5025906 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:41:39 -0400 Received: from d01ml076.pok.ibm.com (d01ml076.pok.ibm.com [9.63.8.33]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2LDfdxH025896 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:41:39 -0400 In-Reply-To: <CAPFewY3aWMTEBWiTpzED94JkuUeKHQZ1P9+w0NWbaZzhZkfccA@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAPFewY3aWMTEBWiTpzED94JkuUeKHQZ1P9+w0NWbaZzhZkfccA@mail.gmail.com> X-KeepSent: 750D2461:C22547FF-852579C8:0044DA2D; type=4; name=$KeepSent To: somnath chatterjee <somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: <OF750D2461.C22547FF-ON852579C8.0044DA2D-852579C8.004B37F5@us.ibm.com> From: David M Bond <dmbond@us.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:41:33 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D01ML076/01/M/IBM(Release 8.5.3 ZX853HP5|January 12, 2012) at 03/21/2012 09:41:39 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12032113-9360-0000-0000-000004B90FA2 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: dmbond@us.ibm.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hello Somnath, Thanks for the comments. My responses are inline below with [DBOND]. Thanks, David From: somnath chatterjee <somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com> To: rbridge@postel.org Date: 03/21/2012 07:58 AM Subject: [rbridge] draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02 Sent by: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi Authors, 1>In Section 4.1.1 two statements can be found which is ambiguous. In first paragraph "The M bit MUST be zero." and in sixth paragraph "The M bit MUST be zero for a known unicast ping." I think the ping tool should not be limited to unicast use only and should be allowed to be sent on distribution tree when used for multidestination frames/unknown unicast. It would be good to include excerpts from draft-yizhou-trill-multi-destination-ping in this OAM draft which talks about multi-destination ping, jitters etc. [DBOND] Agreed. In fact I have been talking with Yizhou about merging these two drafts but I have not had a chance yet. One item that did come up that is useful to mention is in relation to jitter. Currently in Yizhou's draft she has an alternative format for echos so that the time stamp is in a fixed offset for hardware. If at all possible I would prefer to have a single format for echos. My idea was to say time stamps are TLVs but if they appear they MUST always be the first TLV in the TLV list. This way they have a fixed location in the packet so hardware could work with them. Could some hardware folks comment on the viability of this? In general I see there being three options here: Alternative Format Echo with TimeStamp Change Base Format of Echo to include TimeStamp Fixed location of TimeStamp TLV What does everyone in the WG think? [/DBOND] 2> It would be good if RBridges that implement TRILL- OAM does not decrement Hop count by more than one for OAM/Channel messages only. This would help us limiting the max hop count used for traceroute to be equal to the diameter of the campus. [DBOND] To do this there would have to be separate logic for TRILL OAM messages. It is very important that OAM frames follow the same logic as any other frame (to test the forwarding plane) and so we can't make a special condition as such.[/DBOND] 3> If my understanding is correct there is no way to distinguish between pings reply and unicast traceroute reply(other than the error replies). An user may use both the tool concurrently or with minimal time gap. As such it would be hard to distinguish between the replies only with sequence number. I would suggest to use some unique identifier to differentiate between the two types of messages. [DBOND] I'm unsure why the sequence number would be insufficient to meet this need. Please elaborate. 4> In Section 4.1.2.1 ". . . various forms of ECMP hashing based on fields such as MAC addresses, IP addresses, and/or TCP/UDP port numbers." Vlans may be added to the fields list. [DBOND] Adding 5> In Section 4.1.2.2 Editorial changes for "One cannot use the diemater of the network . . ." should be replaced by "One cannot use the diameter of the network/campus" [DBOND] Adding Thank you, Regards, Somnath _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 21 07:43:42 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDB221F86F9 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.583 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.583 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.984, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kAfJmXzvbnYP for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2DD21F86DF for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LEHvHD027725; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e39.co.us.ibm.com (e39.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.160]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LEH9ns027637 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e39.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:15:36 -0400 From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12032114-4242-0000-0000-0000011C5BE8 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: narten@us.ibm.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org > Geez Thomas, you're always complaining :-) Yeah. Let me try to be a bit more constructive. :-) > > Moreover, the vast majority of IDs are not even WG documents, so their > > individual status within the WG is unclear. I am having trouble > > figuring out which ones the WG actually cares about (and I should > > spend time on) and which ones the WG really doesn't think need to be > > pursued, at least not now. ... > I believe that in all the cases of non-WG drafts at least the authors, > and in many cases others, would like them to become WG drafts. Sure, that is often the case. In that case, I think the WG should: 1) explicitly decide how important a non-WG document is. For example: - yes, but this is not urgent, put on backburner - yes, urgent, lets make this a priority (and then make a WG doc) - don't really care, don't see the need, but harmless (maybe spend time if we have extra time...) - not really needed, please don't spend further WG cycles on the document For each draft, I think it would be good if we had that sort of conversation. And not just keep working on all IDs by default. My personal opinion is that the WG is spread a bit thin, and needs to spend more time on core items. For example, there has been little discussion on the OAM topics. Has the WG read the various documents? Can we make some decisions? > Very vaguely speaking, I think the drafts earlier in the agenda are > more important except that one specific Data Center Interconnect > author asked to be on Friday and no other Data Center Interconnect > author has objected so that cluster is on Friday. I'd like to see the WG say "no" to documents that aren't critical and then spend zero time on them during IETF week. IF we don't do that, we will continue to have 10 minute presentations. In my experience, most such presentations are useless. They just end up with "more discussion needed, take it to the list". Repeat at next face-to-face meeting... > > On the OAM topic, IMO, that is a critical one for the WG. TRILL does > > not yet have a published RFC on OAM. That is a critical deficiency. > That's true but, while I know it is not what you are talking about, > the MIB draft is pretty much approved except for the resolution of MIB > Doctor comments and the BFD cluster has WG approval. The current > question is how to resolve the different proposals for more capable > OAM. IMO, the MIB document needs more work and is not as ready as you suggest. See David Bond's message at http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge/2012-March/004870.html. It says: I've submitted a new revision of the draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02 which contains numerous changes as seen in the change list below. One of the bigger changes was after receiving input I removed a lot of the error codes that were in the previous version of the draft. The thought here was unless there is a clear need for an error type we shouldn't define it. If a use case comes up in the future the error code can be defined at that point. Most of those error codes can be better represented in the MIB. We need to decide whether to add more counters to the MIB, and if so, do so. > > Right now, a total of 30 minutes is devoted to OAM, covering the WG > > document and two non-WG documents. Each gets 10 minutes time... > That's not exactly accurate but, in any case, I believe more time can > be allotted to OAM by taking some of the other drafts currently on the > agenda and just handling them on the mailing list. I do not agree that > the WG cannot advance at all in other areas while resolving OAM. I'm not saying we can't do other work. But I am saying we need to prioritize and focus a proper amount of time on the priority items. The current agenda does not have such a feel. It really looks like every document is being given roughly the same amount of time. As another example, I believe in Taipei draft-ietf-trill-fine-labeling-00.txt was mentioned as possible priority item. But there has been no movement on the document that I can see and it is not on the current agenda. Another example, I believe there are some open questions about how to proceed with draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03.txt. It would seem desireable to talk about this document and how to proceed. But it is not listed on the posted agenda. > > It would help me if the Chairs and/or WG added a note to each agenda > > item and described what the purpose of the presentation is for. Is it > > to ask to make something a WG documnt? Is it for something else? And > > how many of the IDs that are being presented have been presented > > before, with the WG not agreeing to take them on as a work item? > I'll post some annotations and suggested changes to the agenda > tomorrow. For example, I think I'm willing to withdraw the > presentations I was going to make and have them handled more > sequentially on the mailing list. Looking forward to this! Thanks! Thomas _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 21 10:38:58 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D634921F8489 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:38:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qnYQSzRoXbmT for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E437021F845B for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LHJvTO000776; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f180.google.com (mail-yx0-f180.google.com [209.85.213.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LHJFFl000711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenl4 with SMTP id l4so1680593yen.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:19:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5HAfwkTjEgsgHiG+qo0xQbaupu+uy0FYcc2HgPrNN5Y=; b=M8HbM9oj9b0h3Gk82YzFg8ifsTnTmk165/ubVWIfDU57wegd1d2aA8cU0HiYUXyMHz y0REWhrJqr4MzYRIqtxcCJPK/hkg8BYa4J7zt4Y/8JGRHsV+PaT67Gi8C7NPZKellBrQ vYkaW4VG96UZQxllwq8ASkaB7D0a0LxyqREnWzHUqSspGItDyYTtHmalbcK0i1kKe/Zw LyQuZMBQBqfaRqiLKROtscFwL9Y1R6+C3NDRLnglX73tXbVD7904V+mn8gcbn1pbbuGk HaSE6o6TDOqpi9b1ccpzdvaPXovrmHLU7flrc9rwQCGSneIUr8/OpaWP7KWirtnvN85V HbSw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.130.28 with SMTP id h28mr1495887ann.34.1332350354837; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.146.103.2 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:19:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <OF750D2461.C22547FF-ON852579C8.0044DA2D-852579C8.004B37F5@us.ibm.com> References: <CAPFewY3aWMTEBWiTpzED94JkuUeKHQZ1P9+w0NWbaZzhZkfccA@mail.gmail.com> <OF750D2461.C22547FF-ON852579C8.0044DA2D-852579C8.004B37F5@us.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 22:49:14 +0530 Message-ID: <CAPFewY3v=Eb6YG3G5LNpg++W_Um=C8OL-rJP91qUXO7d09PReg@mail.gmail.com> From: somnath chatterjee <somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com> To: David M Bond <dmbond@us.ibm.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2LHJFFl000711 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi David, Please ignore my 3rd point regarding sequence numbers, I missed the random/arbitrary generation of sequence numbers in the draft. With random generation of 28bits sequence number the probability of collision tends to zero. Thank you, Regards, Somnath On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 7:11 PM, David M Bond <dmbond@us.ibm.com> wrote: > Hello Somnath, > > Thanks for the comments. My responses are inline below with [DBOND]. > > Thanks, > David > > > > From: =A0 somnath chatterjee <somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com> > To: =A0 =A0 rbridge@postel.org > Date: =A0 03/21/2012 07:58 AM > Subject: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[rbridge] =A0draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02 > Sent by: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0rbridge-bounces@postel.org > > > > Hi Authors, > > 1>In Section 4.1.1 two =A0statements can be found which is ambiguous. > In first paragraph > "The M bit MUST be zero." > and in sixth paragraph > "The M bit MUST be zero for a known unicast ping." > > I think the ping tool should not be limited to unicast use only and > should be allowed to be sent on distribution tree when used for > multidestination frames/unknown unicast. It would be good to include > excerpts from draft-yizhou-trill-multi-destination-ping in this OAM > draft which talks about multi-destination ping, jitters etc. > > [DBOND] Agreed. In fact I have been talking with Yizhou about merging the= se > two drafts but I have not had a chance yet. One item that did come up that > is useful to mention is in relation to jitter. Currently in Yizhou's draft > she has an alternative format for echos so that the time stamp is in a > fixed offset for hardware. If at all possible I would prefer to have a > single format for echos. My idea was to say time stamps are TLVs but if > they appear they MUST always be the first TLV in the TLV list. This way > they have a fixed location in the packet so hardware could work with them. > Could some hardware folks comment on the viability of this? In general I > see there being three options here: > > =A0Alternative Format Echo with TimeStamp > =A0Change Base Format of Echo to include TimeStamp > =A0Fixed location of TimeStamp TLV > > What does everyone in the WG think? > [/DBOND] > > 2> It would be good if RBridges that implement TRILL- OAM does not > decrement Hop count by more than one for OAM/Channel messages only. > This would help us limiting the max hop count used for traceroute to > be equal to the diameter of the campus. > > [DBOND] To do this there would have to be separate logic for TRILL OAM > messages. It is very important that OAM frames follow the same logic as a= ny > other frame (to test the forwarding plane) and so we can't make a special > condition as such.[/DBOND] > > 3> If my understanding is correct there is no way to distinguish > between pings reply and unicast traceroute reply(other than the error > replies). An user may use both the tool concurrently or with minimal > time gap. As such it would be hard to distinguish between the replies > only with sequence number. I would suggest to use some unique > identifier to differentiate between the two types of messages. > > [DBOND] I'm unsure why the sequence number would be insufficient to meet > this need. Please elaborate. > > 4> In Section 4.1.2.1 > ". . . various forms of ECMP hashing based on fields such as MAC > addresses, IP addresses, and/or TCP/UDP port numbers." > =A0Vlans may be added to the fields list. > > [DBOND] Adding > > 5> In Section 4.1.2.2 > Editorial changes for "One cannot use the diemater of the network . . > ." =A0should be replaced by > "One cannot use the diameter of the network/campus" > > [DBOND] Adding > > Thank you, > Regards, > Somnath > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > > _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 21 16:02:10 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C912F21E8026 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.368 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.368 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.230, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uryg1mvXaU1V for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC2321E800C for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LMlhJA026832; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f180.google.com (mail-yx0-f180.google.com [209.85.213.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2LMksnD026683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenl4 with SMTP id l4so2050279yen.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:46:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6t5ak4hG4ZjMCrXNtJXC0p2fkj42dOEFUV9tgg8zeuM=; b=yhc4fH5I2lx8Z40WJyVvp8qYKlrCVQ8slx7vDXcR+C6Mh7c3PaySksmgqNytwHI/+Q yuI7qBRv+bRxHAw/t+8tXxIwmWplARQvORecEdKzrE9qiBYHPrLEZnmzm6k5Jkh43hLz Dxfm0y85GePS1SQ3ONUXQdhjumCP52BRgQQcP7yTSgcSvrPvsUJErBFaiEuy5d5U8mYN hbED2bnfG/MKEx31gZIEIJtKx8E+nmU+vUBUv6e5lHUcUS3z3y1f9MmNgUrTS7M3gcPy FV8xM4iXOQCwYamh7i6b2nczjYRUut2d8/ivOc1LhSCsSPzcZqexjgSd/olFszqJyWTx T+Jg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.10.137 with SMTP id i9mr7334571oeb.23.1332370013691; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.134.73 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:46:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <CAF4+nEH0y6qpLG-+1s_OmFOcdVQMeM_d1byd0BpBAw-2i3ZG6g@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAF4+nEG46yv1z_GrTpg0n1RhfWsMpBr6p50roMWf16KTHtY9TA@mail.gmail.com> <201203202137.q2KLb2Eq008692@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <CAF4+nEH0y6qpLG-+1s_OmFOcdVQMeM_d1byd0BpBAw-2i3ZG6g@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:46:53 -0700 Message-ID: <CAOyVPHR-u+twMxuBPow2eWHrvnka7-37gd2=9mf4abP7EXb=VQ@mail.gmail.com> From: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0697121443==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0697121443== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1f81a601d6804bbc89121 --e89a8fb1f81a601d6804bbc89121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Donald, I am sorry I have not closely followed the OAM thread for some time now. I agree with the concern that OAM needs to be prioritized. I feel there are a rich set of OAM mechanisms now being worked on, we however should work on the first minimal set of Connectivity Verification (Ping/ Trace Route) and Continuity Check (BFD) for unicast packets before we get into more complicated mechanisms - like delays/ loopbacks etc. I agree that the solutions we agree to should be well discussed. Thanks, Vishwas On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote: > >> A draft TRILL WG agenda for the Paris meeting has been posted to the > >> meeting materials page > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html > > > > Looking at this agenda, my gut feeling is that it tries to cover too > > many drafts and doesn't really have enough time do so > > effectively. Most of the presentations get 10 minutes. That isn't > > enough time to have any substantive discussion. IMO, too many ten > > minute presentations are a waste of time. > > Geez Thomas, you're always complaining :-) > > > Moreover, the vast majority of IDs are not even WG documents, so their > > individual status within the WG is unclear. I am having trouble > > figuring out which ones the WG actually cares about (and I should > > spend time on) and which ones the WG really doesn't think need to be > > pursued, at least not now. ... > > I believe that in all the cases of non-WG drafts at least the authors, > and in many cases others, would like them to become WG drafts. Very > vaguely speaking, I think the drafts earlier in the agenda are more > important except that one specific Data Center Interconnect author > asked to be on Friday and no other Data Center Interconnect author has > objected so that cluster is on Friday. > > > On the OAM topic, IMO, that is a critical one for the WG. TRILL does > > not yet have a published RFC on OAM. That is a critical deficiency. > > That's true but, while I know it is not what you are talking about, > the MIB draft is pretty much approved except for the resolution of MIB > Doctor comments and the BFD cluster has WG approval. The current > question is how to resolve the different proposals for more capable > OAM. > > > Right now, a total of 30 minutes is devoted to OAM, covering the WG > > document and two non-WG documents. Each gets 10 minutes time... > > That's not exactly accurate but, in any case, I believe more time can > be allotted to OAM by taking some of the other drafts currently on the > agenda and just handling them on the mailing list. I do not agree that > the WG cannot advance at all in other areas while resolving OAM. > > > It would help me if the Chairs and/or WG added a note to each agenda > > item and described what the purpose of the presentation is for. Is it > > to ask to make something a WG documnt? Is it for something else? And > > how many of the IDs that are being presented have been presented > > before, with the WG not agreeing to take them on as a work item? > > I'll post some annotations and suggested changes to the agenda > tomorrow. For example, I think I'm willing to withdraw the > presentations I was going to make and have them handled more > sequentially on the mailing list. > > > As I said back in Taipei, I think this WG needs to focus on getting > > some of its core deliverables done. I'd like to encourage the chairs > > and WG to think much more critically about the proposed agenda and > > whether it makes good use of the WG's time. > > Thanks, > Donald > ============================= > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com > > > Thomas > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > --e89a8fb1f81a601d6804bbc89121 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Donald,<br><br>I am sorry I have not closely followed the OAM thread for= some time now.<br><br>I agree with the concern that OAM needs to be priori= tized. I feel there are a rich set of OAM mechanisms now being worked on, w= e however should work on the first minimal set of Connectivity Verification= (Ping/ Trace Route) and Continuity Check (BFD) for unicast packets before = we get into more complicated mechanisms - like delays/ loopbacks etc.<br> <br>I agree that the solutions we agree to should be well discussed. <br><b= r>Thanks,<br>Vishwas<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 20, 2012= at 8:05 PM, Donald Eastlake <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3= @gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Thomas,<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Thomas Narten <<a href=3D"mailto:narten= @us.ibm.com">narten@us.ibm.com</a>> wrote:<br> >> A draft TRILL WG agenda for the Paris meeting has been posted to t= he<br> >> meeting materials page<br> >> <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html" ta= rget=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html</a><br> ><br> > Looking at this agenda, my gut feeling is that it tries to cover too<b= r> > many drafts and doesn't really have enough time do so<br> > effectively. Most of the presentations get 10 minutes. That isn't<= br> > enough time to have any substantive discussion. IMO, too many ten<br> > minute presentations are a waste of time.<br> <br> </div>Geez Thomas, you're always complaining :-)<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> > Moreover, the vast majority of IDs are not even WG documents, so their= <br> > individual status within the WG is unclear. I am having trouble<br> > figuring out which ones the WG actually cares about (and I should<br> > spend time on) and which ones the WG really doesn't think need to = be<br> </div>> pursued, at least not now. ...<br> <br> I believe that in all the cases of non-WG drafts at least the authors,<br> and in many cases others, would like them to become WG drafts. Very<br> vaguely speaking, I think the drafts earlier in the agenda are more<br> important except that one specific Data Center Interconnect author<br> asked to be on Friday and no other Data Center Interconnect author has<br> objected so that cluster is on Friday.<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> > On the OAM topic, IMO, that is a critical one for the WG. TRILL does<b= r> </div>> not yet have a published RFC on OAM. That is a critical deficien= cy.<br> <br> That's true but, while I know it is not what you are talking about,<br> the MIB draft is pretty much approved except for the resolution of MIB<br> Doctor comments and the BFD cluster has WG approval. The current<br> question is how to resolve the different proposals for more capable<br> OAM.<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> > Right now, a total of 30 minutes is devoted to OAM, covering the WG<br= > > document and two non-WG documents. Each gets 10 minutes time...<br> <br> </div>That's not exactly accurate but, in any case, I believe more time= can<br> be allotted to OAM by taking some of the other drafts currently on the<br> agenda and just handling them on the mailing list. I do not agree that<br> the WG cannot advance at all in other areas while resolving OAM.<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> > It would help me if the Chairs and/or WG added a note to each agenda<b= r> > item and described what the purpose of the presentation is for. Is it<= br> > to ask to make something a WG documnt? Is it for something else? And<b= r> > how many of the IDs that are being presented have been presented<br> > before, with the WG not agreeing to take them on as a work item?<br> <br> </div>I'll post some annotations and suggested changes to the agenda<br= > tomorrow. For example, I think I'm willing to withdraw the<br> presentations I was going to make and have them handled more<br> sequentially on the mailing list.<br> <div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br> > As I said back in Taipei, I think this WG needs to focus on getting<br= > > some of its core deliverables done. I'd like to encourage the chai= rs<br> > and WG to think much more critically about the proposed agenda and<br> > whether it makes good use of the WG's time.<br> <br> </div><div class=3D"im HOEnZb">Thanks,<br> Donald<br> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D<br> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 <a href=3D"tel:%2B1-508-333-2270" value=3D"= +15083332270">+1-508-333-2270</a> (cell)<br> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA<br> =A0<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a><br> <br> </div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">> Thomas<br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> rbridge mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a><br> <a href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge" target=3D"_b= lank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</a><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br> --e89a8fb1f81a601d6804bbc89121-- --===============0697121443== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0697121443==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 21 17:48:09 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9EF21F8671 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:48:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6XfYXLbeMG8A for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1811321F85DB for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2M0g9jp014359; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h3cedge04-ex.h3c.com ([60.191.123.50]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2M0fb2w014282 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from H3CHUB02-EX.srv.huawei-3com.com (10.63.16.140) by h3cedge04-ex.h3c.com (172.25.12.84) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:50:32 +0800 Received: from H3CHUB04-EX.srv.huawei-3com.com (10.63.20.170) by H3CHUB02-EX.srv.huawei-3com.com (10.63.16.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:41:36 +0800 Received: from H3CMLB02-EX.srv.huawei-3com.com ([fe80::399d:90f6:c5bb:9cc0]) by H3CHUB04-EX.srv.huawei-3com.com ([fe80::c46e:f16e:82fd:90e5%11]) with mapi id 14.01.0218.012; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:41:33 +0800 From: Wanxiaolan <wxlan@h3c.com> To: "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org> Thread-Topic: Extending TRILL over WAN Thread-Index: Ac0HxLyQ05fB0wXNRneTL5hO0PxK7Q== Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 00:41:32 +0000 Message-ID: <1A0F5655DDBDD847BB6DCEF7A2A0724716F4EF90@H3CMLB02-EX.srv.huawei-3com.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.21.10] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wxlan@h3c.com Subject: [rbridge] Extending TRILL over WAN X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1610761283==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1610761283== Content-Language: zh-CN Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1A0F5655DDBDD847BB6DCEF7A2A0724716F4EF90H3CMLB02EXsrvhu_" --_000_1A0F5655DDBDD847BB6DCEF7A2A0724716F4EF90H3CMLB02EXsrvhu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks, I see that a new recent draft has been posted here: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect= / We have a draft posted from a while back on a similar topic. Could the auth= ors of the new draft tell us how it differs from our draft located at here: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xl-trill-over-wan/ Thanking you, Winnie. Winnie Wan(Xiaolan) H3C Technologies Co., Ltd. Phone : +86 10 82774971 E-Mail :wxlan @h3c.com<mailto:zhenyufu@h3c.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------- ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ??? This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from H3C, = which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any u= se of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, tot= al or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the inten= ded recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please not= ify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! --_000_1A0F5655DDBDD847BB6DCEF7A2A0724716F4EF90H3CMLB02EXsrvhu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"= > <style> <!-- @font-face {font-family:\5B8B\4F53} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"} @font-face {font-family:Calibri} @font-face {font-family:"\@\5B8B\4F53"} p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; text-justify:inter-ideograph; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline} span.EmailStyle17 {font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:windowtext} .MsoChpDefault {} @page WordSection1 {margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt} div.WordSection1 {} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D""> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi folks,</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; colo= r:#1F497D">I see that a new recent draft has been posted here:</span><span = lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.i= etf.org/doc/draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect/">http://datatracke= r.ietf.org/doc/draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect/</a></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; colo= r:#1F497D"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; colo= r:#1F497D">We have a draft posted from a while back on a similar topic. Cou= ld the authors of the new draft tell us how it differs from our draft locat= ed at here:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.i= etf.org/doc/draft-xl-trill-over-wan/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft= -xl-trill-over-wan/</a></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; colo= r:#1F497D"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; colo= r:#1F497D"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; colo= r:#1F497D">Thanking you,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; colo= r:#1F497D"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; colo= r:#1F497D">Winnie.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang= =3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#A6A6A6">Winnie Wan(Xiaolan)</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang= =3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#A6A6A6">H3C Technologies Co., Ltd.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang= =3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#A6A6A6">Phone  : +86 10 82774971</span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang= =3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#A6A6A6">E-Mail :wxlan <a href=3D"mailto:zhenyufu@h3c.com"><span style=3D"color:#A6A6A6">@h3c.com<= /span></a></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang= =3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#A6A6A6"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span></p> </div> <span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:华文细黑= ;; color:gray"><span lang=3D"EN-US">---------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------<br> </span>本邮件及其附件含= 377;杭州华三通信技术有= ;限公司的保密信息，&#= 20165;限于发送给上面地ß= 36;中列出<span lang=3D"EN-US"><br> </span>的个人或群组。禁= 490;任何其他人以任何形= ;式使用（包括但不限&#= 20110;全部或部分地泄露z= 89;复制、<span lang=3D"EN-US"><br> </span>或散发）本邮件中= 340;信息。如果您错收了= ;本邮件，请您立即电&#= 35805;或邮件通知发件人ñ= 82;删除本<span lang=3D"EN-US"><br> </span>邮件！<span lang=3D"EN-US"><br> </span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:&q= uot;Arial","sans-serif"; color:gray">This e-mail and its att= achments contain confidential information from H3C, which is <br> intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any u= se of the <br> information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, tot= al or partial <br> disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the inten= ded <br> recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please not= ify the sender <br> by phone or email immediately and delete it!</span> </body> </html> --_000_1A0F5655DDBDD847BB6DCEF7A2A0724716F4EF90H3CMLB02EXsrvhu_-- --===============1610761283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1610761283==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 21 18:22:46 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF51A21E800C for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.053 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.053 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.545, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PL9ybun1DCum for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 915FD21F8607 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2M1Be25018321; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f52.google.com (mail-pz0-f52.google.com [209.85.210.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2M1AwGb018289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dadp12 with SMTP id p12so3163214dad.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:10:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=iitK6pjbw98FBGpWLE7KIy3IzFuCd8y7Vokfp7Arsmo=; b=uyy8iSx6DvS3+Jz1v/RbV4zFq04HeLdEy8lx3Dzgl8EHEoPOWzIC11LktRCwuXCC89 HuPVoOp7HzFr7pdKeyqDoUlbeW0br8/qOrnbWaHQPbG0NmXtqVP+qndRmNhFyYE6ir2q XG9pbKia/19bmIt4y2TOH+C4q/IDW6yI1elEE2uK0GNL2sanmh4wwsNbD1/5/RxrS/zr edjA2A0crrbvsQloLrG6EbF10espfU2M+tUw5+6UbYu8KebxvZNnIZIYcz+iy1F0FdqF tSMrQzqsLp/rvKWQmB8MAed3IYxIaAx3DWDiTf/ryFPW3MxPil7hGvvInOZrokZqWqRO D7Xg== Received: by 10.68.132.41 with SMTP id or9mr16134015pbb.8.1332378658105; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-107-3-156-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [107.3.156.34]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 3sm2521004pbf.47.2012.03.21.18.10.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) From: Sam Aldrin <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1A0F5655DDBDD847BB6DCEF7A2A0724716F4EF90@H3CMLB02-EX.srv.huawei-3com.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:10:53 -0700 Message-Id: <499FB81D-B4E0-4483-9F71-0690F092CF44@gmail.com> References: <1A0F5655DDBDD847BB6DCEF7A2A0724716F4EF90@H3CMLB02-EX.srv.huawei-3com.com> To: Wanxiaolan <wxlan@h3c.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Extending TRILL over WAN X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1870606984==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1870606984== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2E43CB6C-BB45-4B1A-A3F5-8F293844EF52" --Apple-Mail=_2E43CB6C-BB45-4B1A-A3F5-8F293844EF52 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I didn't look at your draft till you pointed it out.=20 So, not aware of your details. Will present the draft at IETF, so, you can get details then. Hopefully we will publish v01 which further clarifies what we are trying = to do. -sam On Mar 21, 2012, at 5:41 PM, Wanxiaolan wrote: > Hi folks, > =20 > I see that a new recent draft has been posted here: > = http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnec= t/ > =20 > We have a draft posted from a while back on a similar topic. Could the = authors of the new draft tell us how it differs from our draft located = at here: > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xl-trill-over-wan/ > =20 > =20 > Thanking you, > =20 > Winnie. > =20 > =20 > Winnie Wan(Xiaolan) > H3C Technologies Co., Ltd. > Phone : +86 10 82774971 > E-Mail :wxlan @h3c.com > =20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------------------- > = =E6=9C=AC=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8F=8A=E5=85=B6=E9=99=84=E4=BB=B6=E5=90=AB=E6= =9C=89=E6=9D=AD=E5=B7=9E=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=89=E9=80=9A=E4=BF=A1=E6=8A=80=E6=9C= =AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=9D=E5=AF=86=E4=BF=A1= =E6=81=AF=EF=BC=8C=E4=BB=85=E9=99=90=E4=BA=8E=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E7=BB=99=E4= =B8=8A=E9=9D=A2=E5=9C=B0=E5=9D=80=E4=B8=AD=E5=88=97=E5=87=BA > = =E7=9A=84=E4=B8=AA=E4=BA=BA=E6=88=96=E7=BE=A4=E7=BB=84=E3=80=82=E7=A6=81=E6= =AD=A2=E4=BB=BB=E4=BD=95=E5=85=B6=E4=BB=96=E4=BA=BA=E4=BB=A5=E4=BB=BB=E4=BD= =95=E5=BD=A2=E5=BC=8F=E4=BD=BF=E7=94=A8=EF=BC=88=E5=8C=85=E6=8B=AC=E4=BD=86= =E4=B8=8D=E9=99=90=E4=BA=8E=E5=85=A8=E9=83=A8=E6=88=96=E9=83=A8=E5=88=86=E5= =9C=B0=E6=B3=84=E9=9C=B2=E3=80=81=E5=A4=8D=E5=88=B6=E3=80=81 > = =E6=88=96=E6=95=A3=E5=8F=91=EF=BC=89=E6=9C=AC=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E4=B8=AD=E7= =9A=84=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E3=80=82=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E6=82=A8=E9=94=99=E6=94= =B6=E4=BA=86=E6=9C=AC=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=8C=E8=AF=B7=E6=82=A8=E7=AB=8B= =E5=8D=B3=E7=94=B5=E8=AF=9D=E6=88=96=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E9=80=9A=E7=9F=A5=E5= =8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=E5=B9=B6=E5=88=A0=E9=99=A4=E6=9C=AC > =E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=81 > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from = H3C, which is=20 > intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. = Any use of the=20 > information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited = to, total or partial=20 > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the = intended=20 > recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, = please notify the sender=20 > by phone or email immediately and delete it! = _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail=_2E43CB6C-BB45-4B1A-A3F5-8F293844EF52 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head><base href=3D"x-msg://6370/"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space; ">I didn't look at your draft till you pointed it = out. <div>So, not aware of your details.<br><div>Will present the = draft at IETF, so, you can get details then.</div><div>Hopefully we will = publish v01 which further clarifies what we are trying to = do.</div><div><br></div><div>-sam</div><div><div><div>On Mar 21, 2012, = at 5:41 PM, Wanxiaolan wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: = none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div = class=3D"WordSection1"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; = margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; = font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US">Hi folks,</span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" = style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; = font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US"> </span></p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; = margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; = text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, = sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: = rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I see that a new recent draft has been posted = here:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: = 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; = text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, = sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a = href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-int= erconnect/" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; = ">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconn= ect/</a></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; = margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; = text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, = sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: = rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; = font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" = style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">We have a draft = posted from a while back on a similar topic. Could the authors of the = new draft tell us how it differs from our draft located at = here:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: = 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; = text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, = sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a = href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xl-trill-over-wan/" = style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; = ">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xl-trill-over-wan/</a></span></div= ><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; = margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; = font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); = "> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" = style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; = font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" = style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span = lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: = 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; = font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); = ">Thanking you,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; = margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; = font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); = "> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p><div style=3D"margin-top: = 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; = text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, = sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: = rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Winnie.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; = margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; = font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US"> </span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" = style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; = font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US"> </span></p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; = margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; = text-align: left; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; = "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(166, 166, 166); ">Winnie = Wan(Xiaolan)</span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: = 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: left; = font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(166, 166, 166); ">H3C Technologies = Co., Ltd.</span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; = margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: left; font-size: = 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" = style=3D"color: rgb(166, 166, 166); ">Phone  : +86 10 = 82774971</span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; = margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: left; font-size: = 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" = style=3D"color: rgb(166, 166, 166); ">E-Mail :wxlan<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhenyufu@h3c.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: = underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(166, 166, 166); = ">@h3c.com</span></a></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" = style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: left; font-size: 10.5pt; = font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: = rgb(166, 166, 166); "></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" = style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; = margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; = font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US"> </span></p></div><span style=3D"font-size: 7.5pt; = font-family: =E5=8D=8E=E6=96=87=E7=BB=86=E9=BB=91; color: gray; "><span = lang=3D"EN-US">-----------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------------------= <br></span>=E6=9C=AC=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8F=8A=E5=85=B6=E9=99=84=E4=BB=B6= =E5=90=AB=E6=9C=89=E6=9D=AD=E5=B7=9E=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=89=E9=80=9A=E4=BF=A1=E6= =8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=9D=E5=AF= =86=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=EF=BC=8C=E4=BB=85=E9=99=90=E4=BA=8E=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81= =E7=BB=99=E4=B8=8A=E9=9D=A2=E5=9C=B0=E5=9D=80=E4=B8=AD=E5=88=97=E5=87=BA<s= pan = lang=3D"EN-US"><br></span>=E7=9A=84=E4=B8=AA=E4=BA=BA=E6=88=96=E7=BE=A4=E7= =BB=84=E3=80=82=E7=A6=81=E6=AD=A2=E4=BB=BB=E4=BD=95=E5=85=B6=E4=BB=96=E4=BA= =BA=E4=BB=A5=E4=BB=BB=E4=BD=95=E5=BD=A2=E5=BC=8F=E4=BD=BF=E7=94=A8=EF=BC=88= =E5=8C=85=E6=8B=AC=E4=BD=86=E4=B8=8D=E9=99=90=E4=BA=8E=E5=85=A8=E9=83=A8=E6= =88=96=E9=83=A8=E5=88=86=E5=9C=B0=E6=B3=84=E9=9C=B2=E3=80=81=E5=A4=8D=E5=88= =B6=E3=80=81<span = lang=3D"EN-US"><br></span>=E6=88=96=E6=95=A3=E5=8F=91=EF=BC=89=E6=9C=AC=E9= =82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E4=B8=AD=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E3=80=82=E5=A6=82=E6=9E= =9C=E6=82=A8=E9=94=99=E6=94=B6=E4=BA=86=E6=9C=AC=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=8C= =E8=AF=B7=E6=82=A8=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E7=94=B5=E8=AF=9D=E6=88=96=E9=82=AE=E4= =BB=B6=E9=80=9A=E7=9F=A5=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=E5=B9=B6=E5=88=A0=E9=99= =A4=E6=9C=AC<span lang=3D"EN-US"><br></span>=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=81<sp= an lang=3D"EN-US"><br></span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" = style=3D"font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: gray; = ">This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from = H3C, which is<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>intended only for the = person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>information contained = herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>disclosure, = reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>recipient(s) is = prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the = sender<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>by phone or = email immediately and delete it!</span><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>_____________________________= __________________<br>rbridge mailing list<br><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org" style=3D"color: blue; = text-decoration: underline; ">rbridge@postel.org</a><br><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge" = style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; = ">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</a><br></div></span><= /blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_2E43CB6C-BB45-4B1A-A3F5-8F293844EF52-- --===============1870606984== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1870606984==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 21 20:46:27 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC55021E80F8 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:46:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CjEUF15qd13p for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C757C21E80DE for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2M3OhDJ006947; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2M3OKgt006932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so2240319lah.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:24:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=Fs7ahKWyaVTr5fUqICiFiXHNPDq11rp3AvaLsogkmcU=; b=kVBDxS+87jaNzUGI2aFcb/VYfUerGt1zDOQt4Tzfke+j3aSoqHOYN9vEI4h6AmUXa/ Jr75xlELTDPZ6giixNSiMR57rJDa2lBjCTnKeK0sACEkt64UubVa9ShS3SfJW7WBaUbD dOr37TqseIH8L7pqstntQ+3B6eA2H+mn3GSw+D4QXKVScT0c+RfqIeuuA+DFp+dAoa39 9FCaU1K6SpPjOfYf3lOjao162CcniEHovPUeBACXdh6f6hqz/8QcKocKSviSdnMLS1XO j36/QvnAU8fC0+Mra/SVH4EVIEy/HrV9Izp+FoSz7Zcdr14HU0qRajwSlInA3yxZuaW/ Og3g== Received: by 10.152.131.9 with SMTP id oi9mr4529627lab.6.1332386659633; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:24:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.128.40 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:23:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <CAF4+nEG46yv1z_GrTpg0n1RhfWsMpBr6p50roMWf16KTHtY9TA@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAF4+nEG46yv1z_GrTpg0n1RhfWsMpBr6p50roMWf16KTHtY9TA@mail.gmail.com> From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:23:59 -0400 Message-ID: <CAF4+nEH2MKXbFHVCHdcdwSDmBd4C5Qwom5_6J2yX-80yschcpw@mail.gmail.com> To: rbridge@postel.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d042c64778d08ae04bbcc7100 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --f46d042c64778d08ae04bbcc7100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Attached is an annotated version of the currently posted agenda. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > A draft TRILL WG agenda for the Paris meeting has been posted to the > meeting materials page > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/agenda.html > > We are scheduled for a session first thing Monday morning and a > session about mid-day Friday. This is certainly not optimal but it is > a very crowded meeting and we were unable to move the Friday meeting > earlier. We could force everything to fit in the Monday session, which > is 2 1/2 hours, by cutting the time available for items but it is not > clear that is the best approach. > > If you are a presenter and can't make the Friday session or can't make > the Monday session and haven't told me yet, please send me an email. > > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA > =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com --f46d042c64778d08ae04bbcc7100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="agenda2comments.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="agenda2comments.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_h038ir9x0 SGVyZSBpcyB0aGUgY3VycmVudGx5IHBvc3RlZCBhZ2VuZGEgd2l0aCBzb21lIGFubm90YXRpb25z LiBJIHBsYW4gdG8KcG9zdCBhbiBzbWVuZGVkIGFnZW5kYSBzb29uLi4uCgpPQU0KPT09CgpBdCBs YXN0IG1lZXRpbmcgaXQgd2FzIGRlY2lkZWQgdGhhdCBPQU0gd2FzIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgaGlnaCBw cmlvcml0aWVzCmZvciB0aGUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cC4KCjEwIG1pbi4gIElDTVAgYmFzZWQgT0FN IFNvbHV0aW9uIGZvciBUUklMTCwgVGlzc2EgU2VuZXZpcmF0aG5lCiAgICAgICAgIGRyYWZ0LXRp c3NhLXRyaWxsLW9hbS0wMy50eHQKVGhpcyB3YXMgcHJlc2VudGVkIGxhc3QgbWVldGluZy4KCjEw IG1pbi4gIFByb2FjdGl2ZSBjb25uZWN0aXZpdHkgbW9uaXRvcmluZyBmb3IgVFJJTEwsIFJvaGl0 IFdhdHZlCiAgICAgICAgIGRyYWZ0LXJvaGl0LXRyaWxsLXByb2FjdGl2ZS1vYW0tMDAudHh0ClRo 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IDUgbWluLiAgV3JhcC1VcCwgQ2hhaXJzCg== --f46d042c64778d08ae04bbcc7100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --f46d042c64778d08ae04bbcc7100-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 22 07:06:01 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5535A21F85EA for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 07:06:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ht5Aq6RxHAPJ for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 07:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C95EE21F85A1 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 07:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2MDrwKp011736; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 06:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta41.charter.net (mta41.charter.net [216.33.127.83]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2MDrQHU011373 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 06:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta41.charter.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.02 201-2260-151-103-20110920) with ESMTP id <20120322135326.MJOC10143.mta41.charter.net@imp10>; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:53:26 -0400 Received: from wt05 ([209.225.8.45]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id odtS1i0070yHwtd05dtSyU; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:53:26 -0400 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=JYQIUidRAECiNa+jsiaNMIhYElg3H2WoMKCJIGO75f4= c=1 sm=1 a=mPdft7sT4qkA:10 a=cWQ9uGxeeyIA:10 a=lc5v_U8dHoEA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=hrAVmPx1BfGJL6VlTjBtdg==:17 a=0Qg8RWfqAAAA:8 a=MMPWtiTIVnnvfQVX_GgA:9 a=gZ98SGaWl7zWWesAwWYA:7 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=1jtitDqs7uwA:10 a=hrAVmPx1BfGJL6VlTjBtdg==:117 Received: from [15.195.201.90] by enhanced.charter.net with HTTP; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:53:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:53:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Anil Rijhsinghani <anil@charter.net> To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> Message-ID: <295ef6be.49254f.1363aaef44b.Webtop.45@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Laszlo Mail 3 X-SID: 45 X-Originating-IP: [15.195.201.90] Content-Disposition: inline X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: anil@charter.net Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Draft TRILL agenda for Paris posted X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Just a response on the MIB comment in this thread, On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Thomas Narten wrote: > IMO, the MIB document needs more work and is not as ready as you > suggest. See David Bond's message at > http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge/2012-March/004870.html. > > It says: > > I've submitted a new revision of the > draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-oam-02 which contains numerous changes as > seen in the change list below. One of the bigger changes was after > receiving input I removed a lot of the error codes that were in > the previous version of the draft. The thought here was unless > there is a clear need for an error type we shouldn't define it. If > a use case comes up in the future the error code can be defined at > that point. Most of those error codes can be better represented > in the MIB. > > We need to decide whether to add more counters to the MIB, and if so, > do so. I believe the operative part here is, "Unless there is a clear need for an error type we shouldn't define it." Counters are particularly easy to get carried away with. Implementers will tell you that every additional counter they must keep track of -- whether in hardware or software -- is a burden. Hence, every counter needs to be carefully justified. This has been the rationale in every MIB I have worked on. For now we are well past WG approval and last call of the MIB document, and in the final stages of publication. However as deployment of the protocol increases, there will be a process of discovery that may lead to additional management requirements, which would feed into a future version of the MIB. Part of this could be additional counters which are shown to provide enough bang for the buck. Regards, Anil _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 23 14:16:56 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365DE21F862F for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:16:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.905 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.905 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.694, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kXhUvwC2fRdU for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF3021F8633 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2NL1xCO018605; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2NL1Ga2018483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so4700630lah.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:01:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HZJ8dyv0gNAsNboer6SOoEP3BDExKT5H6ZZ8PSERQDM=; b=Tjy3QIAngYYOfZdg1ByVTeI+W3AvAPjfwd4UjnDgJv2KUnZlxrAah9s+S56kiEALzJ YUi5q1n/8XIEz4KHn7FqPN5FBs1eDjoPuBoq9jrnIR78Ap0R/5iOl5A/rzBD6efCVeuy ZSatR4nu8xf5cgTQRii4QW0jqKQDmCK5EPh6hrA3vfmXdGqaHI8ZMEFGUIGfFfX62j2E mtpQbjrOK+DvpqY2Kon9jEJLKKFvVgcLqCqCFiwGf+P+PmY2e28CURFH8caoskWyabsO geFZDNs44E9WnOIvCSxrzuxunoDjT0NU0L76vB/BUQWRoB2L+PCN48X0LE/xZoDKdZTE ZEhA== Received: by 10.112.104.65 with SMTP id gc1mr4741650lbb.101.1332536475774; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:01:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.128.40 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:00:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 17:00:55 -0400 Message-ID: <CAF4+nEHz0s4wC_aqEzbDOj7ei5MZfN2HYhYxvB9b-bWPYikJfQ@mail.gmail.com> To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2NL1Ga2018483 Subject: [rbridge] Revised TRILL Agenda X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi, At the last TRILL WG meeting in Taipei, there was general agreement that improved OAM should be a high priority for TRILL. So, as has been requested, the agenda has been adjusted to provide more time for OAM and six presentations have been dropped and the revised agenda has been uploaded. The presenters of all the dropped presentations were contacted in advance and agreed. In addition, one brief presentation on a new topic that came up recently has been added. See you in Paris. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 26 10:40:51 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D88821E8104 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DwbRWcWeJpYG for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA6221E8100 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2QGsttg000945; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2QGsNGT000881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:54:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=3611; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332780872; x=1333990472; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=zWtgST/tcP9o0i8Z7yZQn6ezAIh2XnTapn1lvaHjA9A=; b=GpWStiTms2rzEqoJTIfGiTQHKsJlnt77tN/WtihZ7UEPE6tYLym1bpzX 15DtgYjvf8FhEHUY0zuezNOIl23nT0W8SUcLmuraH6C/as8WVpKJrIxGh kZ3kt0WZH0qTDyLpcuIzUPKq9VZukUDV6EQ3aSgkaaMHwgqSB9tjuxD/x 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EALyecE+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABDgk+1ZYEHggsBBBIBCREDWwEMHgYYB1cBBBsah2edWoEnlw6OBIJBYwSIV5tOgWiDBw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,650,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="37708134" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Mar 2012 16:54:22 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2QGsMOw029905 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:54:22 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:54:22 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:54:21 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5D10826@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: TRILL Multi-topology encoding draft Thread-Index: Ac0LcRcvQBNmQLy8T4Kfjo2edm1CAg== From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> To: <rbridge@postel.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2012 16:54:22.0491 (UTC) FILETIME=[17F75EB0:01CD0B71] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: [rbridge] TRILL Multi-topology encoding draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0070206133==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0070206133== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0B71.17FA8979" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0B71.17FA8979 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All We have posted draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-00. This draft discuss methods that can be used to encode multi topology id without exhausting nickname space or adding additional control plane extensions to abbreviate absolute topology. Please let us know your comments. =20 Abstract: =20 Two alternative methods of encoding Multi Topology Identifier within the TRILL data frames are presented. Methods proposed herein do not require overloading TRILL RBridge nickname to encode Multi Topology Identifier. =20 Thanks Tissa ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0B71.17FA8979 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 = (filtered medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear = All<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>We have posted = draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-00. This draft discuss methods that can be = used to encode multi topology id without exhausting nickname space or = adding additional control plane extensions to abbreviate absolute = topology. Please let us know your comments.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Abstract:<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>   = Two alternative methods of encoding Multi Topology Identifier = within<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>   the TRILL data = frames are presented. Methods proposed herein do not<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>   require overloading TRILL RBridge = nickname to encode Multi Topology<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>   Identifier.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Tissa<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0B71.17FA8979-- --===============0070206133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0070206133==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 26 15:33:42 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCF321E800F for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:33:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.695, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZdLf9rViTk4z for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733ED21E800C for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2QMGUZ9003964; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f180.google.com (mail-lb0-f180.google.com [209.85.217.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2QMFeIE003855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbon10 with SMTP id n10so7389625lbo.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:15:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=np021AtjwMkHu1V0yPmvMcPe9aDyndtJJYpnHuSwrzI=; b=bDsSzdn5/io69YuhIxkE1i5yQhqqc7ujleq8ajl2Xmzyl2OL5ICzCDyY+idI6Rd3QC HfE3t8FUdsytgeuA04wUTE9cypPHo1JrrgdKSC2E80rja1tRVTLpng/jd0ZGKth6oT4l DzHDiYt4DQ5X84ws108kvMd2GCgzpIG8WA06VMUZRaelbSaokyDLFPrkDTWWLm5KZ4F4 lUE6RLb9sauewjpzadmrolA9H/9hMu1VxfghoqEUGJ3OWcaZ3lTxBQ2sIJDZSvYaxj0S vbTueDTzqG6SHylxJ7lbAiXDIn+vBYmlCbbgs57+7/2QCcnkKZ2JbKdsncY7HWONQ19M tJjw== Received: by 10.152.146.163 with SMTP id td3mr17246714lab.31.1332800139179; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:15:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.21.162 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:15:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4F2A0A63.30907@acm.org> References: <4F2991C6.7070904@acm.org> <012b01cce14a$9b0dbca0$d12935e0$@com> <4F2A0A63.30907@acm.org> From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:15:18 -0400 Message-ID: <CAF4+nEFgNrobavnPtjOemWvTd8+ra7TeHE60aWo-Wnd=GKazng@mail.gmail.com> To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2QMFeIE003855 Subject: Re: [rbridge] WG last call of draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-04 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org During this working group last call, there were a number of comments that were resolved and substantial support. The resulting draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-05.txt has achieved working group consensus and RFC publication will be requested. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:00 PM, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org> wrote: > On 2/1/12 5:33 PM, Yizhou Li wrote: >> The latest version should be 04. > > Yes. Thanks for the correction. > > =A0 =A0Erik > >> Yizhou >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On >> Behalf Of Erik Nordmark >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:26 AM >> To: rbridge@postel.org >> Subject: [rbridge] WG last call of draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-03 >> >> >> We're starting three separate last calls this week, but they are all >> very short documents. >> >> We had an earlier WG last call on this document 6 months ago, and there >> were some concerns about using the IS-IS genapp mechanism, so that use >> has been removed. >> >> The WG last call ends on Feb 15th. >> Please send comments (including ones that say you've read the document >> and it is fine) to the rbridge list. >> >> =A0 =A0 Erik >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 26 15:50:28 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F158121E8012 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:50:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.688, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QVa-Dq9XanXL for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043E021E800C for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2QMcskG009306; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2QMceZM008940 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so7418570lah.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:38:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=htOzrAZyKxhN/y3VOVLse5yRXWamiwycMu1RRTQ2IyQ=; b=lNo84ZY/GdwkWzpQxepeS+RyL4H5TPYFziGFvz5yU23lD4MQehy0LqsBiIjjs5wbsY t42BL043wkbSgwtkoczYC+grFwwYKS1v5yWbIHHTPzMk7lKgL6B90oUHTZkU5v+cKO9g G5tj1u59afaKkPwGPDYFHO0fR1mD8xbd9Do59adSrCyZlv4G8V+a3QxEDGc1o7NMywcY ysc9A9NK8ULJ6GFAYJ4SmWCfjJQyEzRBZ7mliWRwFAVu09CdNQJF+swtKJ4YH4e6Cvni gbLADsJtFn+ApcnR4T39KqoxjEVufi8Y/j4XCsIiSllMhvuOmXItRr5AW53Yk8sGh4Dg 7lbQ== Received: by 10.152.146.163 with SMTP id td3mr17287086lab.31.1332801519749; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:38:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.21.162 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:38:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:38:19 -0400 Message-ID: <CAF4+nEGowzTPxcBO3zCtgk9FKGuuOmOkub6mEFCQU3ypyofMDg@mail.gmail.com> To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2QMceZM008940 Subject: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to respond, please do so by April 10th. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 26 16:09:56 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C512D21F8645 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:09:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.681, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3X2+ja2vXsNk for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA9B21F8644 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2QMYrnf008310; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f180.google.com (mail-lb0-f180.google.com [209.85.217.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2QMYaMb008283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbon10 with SMTP id n10so7404860lbo.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c02EAYb+bASkGLlD7Utr6wt3v6g90HdmgCuk2CcIzQk=; b=iobk9H8erXpTtWs75wZ9kYfVCAQ5OPT3FYjSNKs5+wLh8Az3j5eL7/tXnZqZfsiCgt 1CTEOA6Aqe7hsouh9Q4vhtz9v0vTJGkuNtTyaLWIJte6CI9sxhml+R4Xuff17Y6BCBN9 BEfzUm8gAb4SouC5dKFu5AWawtiAMvWezG2lNzi9jbj9zX8DJL4Ox9WWgfPFnK8QTsc4 w5Kx76L8/4TaSf5cx6k6WrikiV5Oy1pt3ZL/UIui8j8oC4MerAm8StTFhtxfRJyzpxI/ 46EB61/23i+dfwDA9u2ynSUNAyxcnXT35r2OFJ/u9QRsWEEP3FJnBmIslDv2O1MK25Tj Tz9g== Received: by 10.152.113.229 with SMTP id jb5mr17244864lab.45.1332801276097; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.21.162 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:34:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4F299302.3000804@acm.org> References: <4F299302.3000804@acm.org> From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:34:15 -0400 Message-ID: <CAF4+nEFWO8Kfg-mzpLNcEEE5tQe=B=AUNXdppZey4bJBZummtg@mail.gmail.com> To: "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2QMYaMb008283 Subject: Re: [rbridge] WG last call of draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-02 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org There was substantial support for this document but one person had objections. Some of those objections were resolved by the replacement of Section 2.4, as discussed on this list, resulting in draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-extension-03.txt. This document has achieve rough working group consensus and its RFC publication will be request. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org> wrote: > > Last year we had a last call on draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-options, and > that resulted in separating out the minimum set of flags and associated > behavior into a this extensions document. > > The WG last call ends on Feb 15th. > Please send comments (including ones that say you've read the document > and it is fine) to the rbridge list. > > =A0 Erik > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Mon Mar 26 21:59:27 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5739721F85D5 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 21:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VUNQRCa2vpW3 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 21:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCE821F85D3 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 21:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2R4g4nn003497; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 21:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2R4fN9S003447; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 21:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.100] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 523732371461274; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:28:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.21] by [192.168.168.16] with StormMail ESMTP id 42250.2642532086; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:41:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse02.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id q2R4f7si026506; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:41:07 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <CAF4+nEGowzTPxcBO3zCtgk9FKGuuOmOkub6mEFCQU3ypyofMDg@mail.gmail.com> To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.0.4 June 01, 2004 Message-ID: <OFC288868B.A527334A-ON482579CE.00197E3D-482579CE.0019BBFC@zte.com.cn> From: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:41:02 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.1FP4|July 25, 2010) at 2012-03-27 12:41:08, Serialize complete at 2012-03-27 12:41:08 X-MAIL: mse02.zte.com.cn q2R4f7si026506 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Cc: rbridge@postel.org, rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1187226503==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 03:10:17 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C5D21F892B for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:10:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CFrbs1EfJ0ov for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; 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[130.129.22.10]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e6sm48124646wix.8.2012.03.27.02.44.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:44:09 -0700 (PDT) References: <OFC288868B.A527334A-ON482579CE.00197E3D-482579CE.0019BBFC@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <OFC288868B.A527334A-ON482579CE.00197E3D-482579CE.0019BBFC@zte.com.cn> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <33AB4A01-F9E6-44BB-AAB8-5D2769BC5E78@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B176) From: Jon Hudson <jon.hudson@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:44:04 +0200 To: "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jon.hudson@gmail.com Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2042306633==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============2042306633== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9CEA1410-DEB8-4530-A8FA-44E72DB83A2B --Apple-Mail-9CEA1410-DEB8-4530-A8FA-44E72DB83A2B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I disagree that this functionality is not essential to TRILL.=20 Many customers I have spoken to have been disapointed that multicast does no= t get the same active/active advantages as unicast in TRILL. The CMT solution has already seen a very positive response from customers I h= ave explained it to and I am quite excited about eventually implementing thi= s feature. Even on Twitter yesterday they where people talking about and sharing info o= n this proposal. Jon On Mar 27, 2012, at 6:41 AM, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn wrote: >=20 > Hi,all=20 >=20 > We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if a= ll the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the CMT c= an work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual RBridge n= ickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check failure for the v= irtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not an essential and key i= ssue for trill, and CMT should be a optional solution. Some RBridges may not= implement the feature. I wonder whether the CMT will does work actually bec= ause of the back compatibility issue.=20 >=20 > There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I s= uggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the two sol= utions.=20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 >=20 >=20 > Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> =20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: rbridge-bounces@postel.org > 2012-03-27 06:38 >=20 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA > rbridge@postel.org=20 > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81 > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98 > [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the > room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a > call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to > respond, please do so by April 10th. >=20 > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail-9CEA1410-DEB8-4530-A8FA-44E72DB83A2B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><br></div><div>I disagree t= hat this functionality is not essential to TRILL. </div><div><br></div>= <div>Many customers I have spoken to have been disapointed that multicast do= es not get the same active/active advantages as unicast in TRILL.</div><div>= <br></div><div>The CMT solution has already seen a very positive response fr= om customers I have explained it to and I am quite excited about eventually i= mplementing this feature.</div><div><br></div><div>Even on Twitter yesterday= they where people talking about and sharing info on this proposal.</div><di= v><br></div><div>Jon</div><div><br>On Mar 27, 2012, at 6:41 AM, <a href=3D"m= ailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a> wrote:<br><br></div><= div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div> <br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Hi,all</font> <br> <br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">We have discussed that there is bac= k compatibility issue for CMT. Only if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv= , there may exist RPC check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should= be a optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back compatibi= lity issue.</font> <br> <br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">There is another solution (pseudono= de nickname) solves the same issue. I suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the two solutions</font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"T= imes New Roman">.</font> <br> <br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Thanks<br> </font> <br> <br> <br> <table width=3D"100%"> <tbody><tr valign=3D"top"> <td width=3D"35%"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><b>Donald Eastlake &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>></b> </font> <br><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:  = <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= </font> <p><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">2012-03-27 06:38</font> </p></td><td width=3D"64%"> <table width=3D"100%"> <tbody><tr valign=3D"top"> <td> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6= =E4=BA=BA</font></div> </td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@post= el.org">rbridge@postel.org</a></font> </td></tr><tr valign=3D"top"> <td> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81= </font></div> </td><td> </td></tr><tr valign=3D"top"> <td> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98= </font></div> </td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">[rbridge] Call for draft-tissa= -trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</font></td></tr></tbody></table> <br> <table> <tbody><tr valign=3D"top"> <td> </td><td></td></tr></tbody></table> <br></td></tr></tbody></table> <br> <br> <br><font size=3D"2"><tt>During the TRILL session today, there was a consens= us of those in the<br> room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a<br> call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to<br> respond, please do so by April 10th.<br> <br> Thanks,<br> Donald<br> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D<br>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA<br>  <a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a><br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> rbridge mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a><br> <a href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge">http://mailma= n.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</a><br> <br> </tt></font> <br> </div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________= ___________________________</span><br><span>rbridge mailing list</span><br><= span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a></span><br>= <span><a href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge">http://= mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</a></span><br></div></blockquote= ></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-9CEA1410-DEB8-4530-A8FA-44E72DB83A2B-- --===============2042306633== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============2042306633==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 03:43:24 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15FC21E814E for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; 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Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbon10 with SMTP id n10so7922641lbo.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:28:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QplCK5gSWwLqbOTEKcCJU0H9j8GkK2lOjNzU6EnocLQ=; b=zF5d1JkeQp7cL2z0UgV07xpWMsN1V2sWT/JrrNpAIxBv9CZY/kIdNaXOnkA+AyqvHV uSjFHMAhm0rHeqVPgFIOMHHhNA8SdpoX6HDz4Dxuwtwzk3bixejsOYumYWaXaSGocGsB 92ZLwH5FQ/mMqVoLnRhSn/I9YBu94QEkOjZflclrE6cJnto/BGZhicgIt93npMFI1NwX nFwiK4T4sfT4e0mhR9V7CG+p4CdYVFeg2iDu8EE0+MDIcKJ45NKCKBA+p+87CzUFRfIn bEeElqjkW1ZCWl5wlkBB+CtxRhcVbmKhPgd9A7+qKQcnSwUWcfI1ZWZl3lnd6ccwx5zs u4dQ== Received: by 10.152.102.173 with SMTP id fp13mr18528603lab.38.1332844127225; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:28:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.21.162 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:28:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <CB8A24FF.2707B%ayabaner@cisco.com> References: <CB89293C.1B4D9%varshah@cisco.com> <CB8A24FF.2707B%ayabaner@cisco.com> From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 06:28:26 -0400 Message-ID: <CAF4+nEH_sb6V0eB_Ca=7v1tc348Ss13sDz-shaFDDupJ5ZgQ-w@mail.gmail.com> To: ayabaner <ayabaner@cisco.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: d3e3e3@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2RASmTr027693 Cc: rbridge@postel.org, varshah <varshah@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Parent node ID selection for multi destination trees X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org The only problem with making the change below is that it is very important that all RBridges calculate exactly the same distribution trees. Otherwise multi-destinationn traffic get dropped due to the Reverse Path Forwarding Check. The existing specification, while a bit odd, works; but an implementation of the existing specification and the proposed changed specification would have interoperability problems for multi-destination TRILL Data frame. I'd really like to hear from other implementors as to whether they have implemented it as specified in RFC 6325 and what their feelings are about the proposed change. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell) =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:24 PM, ayabaner <ayabaner@cisco.com> wrote: > Varun, > > Agree, that was the original intention. I believe that if kept as-is we w= ill > have more unnecessary changes in the SPF outputs when topology changes. > > I believe that we should just add this into the > =93draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-01=94. > > Thanks, > Ayan > > > > > On 3/16/12 5:30 PM, "varshah" <varshah@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > Reading section 4.5 of RFC 6325 > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#section-4.5) it seems that the select= ion > of a parent node =A0(7 byte- node ID) for a node N on a multi destination= tree > j; should be based on j % p, where p is the number of equal cost parent > nodes to reach node N from root node R. > > The intent seems to use lowest parent node ID for tree 1, next for tree 2 > and so on.... And circle through if we have more possible trees than pare= nt > nodes. > > However, the trees are numbered starting 1, and the parent node IDs are > indexed starting 0 to (p =96 1). =A0So, for a node N, when the network su= pports > 2 trees and with two possible parent nodes, =A0we would use > > parent node indexed at 1 for tree 1, j % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1 and > Parent node indexed at 0 for tree 2, j % p --> 2 % 2 =3D 0. > > To stay with the real intention, it would help if we had (j - 1) %p. > > In that case, > parent node indexed at 0 for tree 1, (j =A0- 1)% p --> 0 % 2 =3D 0 and > Parent node indexed at 1 for tree 2,( j =96 1) % p --> 1 % 2 =3D 1. > > Thanks, > -Varun > ________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 03:54:23 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE7021F88C0 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; 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Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:12:26 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:12:26 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:12:23 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <OFC288868B.A527334A-ON482579CE.00197E3D-482579CE.0019BBFC@zte.com.cn> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: Ac0L1O5gTMCvJ2UHTC6W62RikB8dVgAK/zEA References: <CAF4+nEGowzTPxcBO3zCtgk9FKGuuOmOkub6mEFCQU3ypyofMDg@mail.gmail.com> <OFC288868B.A527334A-ON482579CE.00197E3D-482579CE.0019BBFC@zte.com.cn> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> To: <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2012 10:12:26.0246 (UTC) FILETIME=[1BFA2A60:01CD0C02] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org, rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1693674931==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1693674931== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C02.1BB77961" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C02.1BB77961 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hu =20 CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility and your assessment of = RPF failure when older RBridges present is incorrect. =20 Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment scenario. =20 Thanks Tissa =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM To: Donald Eastlake Cc: rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 Hi,all=20 We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only = if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, = the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the = virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC = check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve = is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a = optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder = whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back = compatibility issue.=20 There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.=20 Thanks Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 2012-03-27 06:38=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB rbridge@postel.org=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =09 During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to respond, please do so by April 10th. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C02.1BB77961 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dgb2312"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:SimSun; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"\@SimSun"; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} tt {mso-style-priority:99; font-family:SimSun;} p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph {mso-style-priority:34; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:.5in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:174467666; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:191421190 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 = 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Hi Hu<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility  and your = assessment of RPF failure when older RBridges present is = incorrect.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment = scenario.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Tissa<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] <b>On = Behalf Of </b>hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 26, = 2012 9:41 PM<br><b>To:</b> Donald Eastlake<br><b>Cc:</b> = rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi,all</span>= <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>We have = discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if all = the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the CMT = can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual = RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check = failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not = an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a optional = solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder whether = the CMT will does work actually because of the back compatibility = issue.</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>There is = another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I suggest = we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the two = solutions</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif"'>.</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thanks<br></s= pan><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"35%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:35.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <<a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>></span></b><span= style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><br><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>:  <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= </span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 06:38</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"64%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:64.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a></span> = <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span = lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>[rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><tt>During the TRILL session = today, there was a consensus of those in the</tt><br><tt>room to make = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is = a</tt><br><tt>call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If = you wish to</tt><br><tt>respond, please do so by April = 10th.</tt><br><br><tt>Thanks,</tt><br><tt>Donald</tt><br><tt>=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= </tt><br><tt> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 = (cell)</tt><br><tt> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 = USA</tt><br><tt> <a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a></tt><br><br><tt>___= ____________________________________________</tt><br><tt>rbridge mailing = list</tt><br><tt><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a></tt><br><tt><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge">http://mailma= n.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</a></tt><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></di= v></body></html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C02.1BB77961-- --===============1693674931== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1693674931==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 05:59:32 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> 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<tsenevir@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: B0DE3615:39F65513-482579CE:003C2CB1; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: <OFB0DE3615.39F65513-ON482579CE.003C2CB1-482579CE.003E7761@zte.com.cn> From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:18:47 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.1FP4|July 25, 2010) at 2012-03-27 19:18:53, Serialize complete at 2012-03-27 19:18:53 X-MAIL: mse02.zte.com.cn q2RBIkWH015363 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, rbridge@postel.org, rbridge-bounces@postel.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1705426201==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1705426201== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 003E775E482579CE_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 003E775E482579CE_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVGlzc2ENCg0KSW4geW91ciBDTVQgZHJhZnQsIGlmIG9uZSBvbGQgUkJyaWRnZSBpcyBtb21p dG9yZWQgbm90IHN1cHBvcnRpbmcgDQphZmZpbml0aXZlLVRMViwgdGhlIENNVCBmdW5jdGlvbiB3 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--===============1705426201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1705426201==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 09:32:55 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428A821E80F1 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 09:32:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, 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Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:35:36 +0530 From: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com> To: "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn" <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:39:24 +0530 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: Ac0MGY0J3BnLb+9KQJ2EsBIJiydGAgAGQkSA Message-ID: <CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD471144127C@EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com> References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <OFB0DE3615.39F65513-ON482579CE.003C2CB1-482579CE.003E7761@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <OFB0DE3615.39F65513-ON482579CE.003C2CB1-482579CE.003E7761@zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jana@force10networks.com Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" <rbridge-bounces@postel.org>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0708695816==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0708695816== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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{page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli= nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f= ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Zhai,<= o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f= ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></= p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri= ","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Few points:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D= MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty= le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1)= In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their links to= RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello frame on thi= s link towards CE1, this will not be received by any of the other RBridges = RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be applicable in this scenari= o<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt= ;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib= ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>2)  In the PN draft, only the AF will = forward all traffic into and out of this network, and this is because it is= regular Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and he= nce the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB= 1 and not to all of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s= tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>= <o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1= 1.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>  So I think t= he problem space that these two drafts are discussing are different, and th= e Pseudo Node draft will not be applicable to the LAG active-active load ba= lancing scenarios described in the CMT draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class= =3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se= rif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= >Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:= 11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jana<o:p></o:p></s= pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C= alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3D= MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D= 'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0= pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style= =3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> rbridge-bounces@po= stel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>zhai.hongj= un@zte.com.cn<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:49 PM<br><b>To:</b>= Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<br><b>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; rbridge@poste= l.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn<br><b>Subject:</b>= Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal= style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa= mily:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi Tissa</span> <br><br><span style=3D'font-size= :10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In your CMT draft, if one old RBr= idge is momitored not supporting affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be d= isbale in all the TRILL campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for </sp= an><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color= :#1F497D'>backward compatibility</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font= -family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> in CMT. So CMT can not work until all the RB= ridges support affinitive-TLV.</span> <br><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0= pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>However, in the PN draft, there is no = such backward compatibiltiy. PN draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the ps= eudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and = the members are configured statically by network administors, no hello PDUs= are necessary between the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP= method given in PN draft can also work</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0= pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> for the scenario desc= ribed in your CMT</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial"= ,"sans-serif"'> draft.</span> <br><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-= family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Thanks,<br>Zhai Hongjun<br>""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """""<br>Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&a= mp;D Institute, ZTE Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai Distric= t, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: +86-25-528773= 45<br>Email: <a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.co= m.cn</a><br>""""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""<br><br></sp= an><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadd= ing=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"36%" valign= =3Dtop style=3D'width:36.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMso= Normal><b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>= "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <<a href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@ci= sco.com">tsenevir@cisco.com</a>></span></b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5p= t;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><br><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D= 'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;f= ont-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>:  <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@= postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a></span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span s= tyle=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 18:12<= /span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"63%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:63= .0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border= =3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign= =3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align= =3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7= .5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style= =3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo= nt-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><<a href=3D"mailto:hu.fa= ngwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>>, "Donald Eastlake"= ; <<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>></span> <= o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .= 75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><= span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p><= /p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class= =3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif= "'><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>, <a href=3D= "mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a></span> <= o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .= 75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><= span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p><= /p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class= =3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif= "'>Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><o:p><= /o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table= class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop sty= le=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'paddi= ng:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=3D= MsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><span style=3D'font-si= ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Hu</span> <b= r><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:= #1F497D'> </span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>CMT draft discuss about backward compatib= ility  and your assessment of RPF failure when older RBridges present = is incorrect.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calib= ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:= 10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Additionally I am = not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario described in the CMT. P= er the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data Centers and Enterprise have = multi home devices connected to the TRILL edge. They will not let LAN Hello= to pass through them because of the LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer= to the reference topology in the draft. Hence CMT draft address very cruci= al deployment scenario.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam= ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <br><span style=3D'= font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks</= span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D'>Tissa</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami= ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <br><b><span style= =3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><sp= an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D= "mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a> [<a href= =3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a= >] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@= zte.com.cn</a><b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM<b><br>To:</b>= Donald Eastlake<b><br>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridg= e@postel.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org</a><b><br>Subject:</b> Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-t= rill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans= -serif"'> </span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ari= al","sans-serif"'><br>Hi,all</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans= -serif"'> <br></span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"'><br>We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue fo= r CMT. Only if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity s= ub-tlv, the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce th= e virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC ch= eck failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not= an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a optional solutio= n. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder whether the CMT wi= ll does work actually because of the back compatibility issue.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span style=3D'font-= size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>There is another solution= (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I suggest we should do furthe= r discussion with CMT and compare with the two solutions</span><span style= =3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>.</span><span s= tyle=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span style=3D'font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></= p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" s= tyle=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"43%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:43.= 0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'= font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald Eastlake <</spa= n></b><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt= ;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b><= span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span= ><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><spa= n style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>:  </span= ><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:7.5= pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><= span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><= span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 06:38</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p><= /o:p></p></td><td width=3D"56%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:56.0%;padding:.= 75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table cl= ass=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'wid= th:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"11%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:11.0%;padding:= .75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-a= lign:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB= </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"88%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:88= .0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto= :rbridge@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sa= ns-serif"'>rbridge@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial",= "sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style= =3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright sty= le=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD= =CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .7= 5pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75p= t .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right= '><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:= p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p cl= ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-se= rif"'>[rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><o:p></= o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><span style=3D'font-fami= ly:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p><= /p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50= .0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop st= yle=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td>= </tr></table><p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span style=3D'font-fami= ly:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>During the TRILL session today, there = was a consensus of those in the<br>room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.tx= t a TRILL WG draft. This is a<br>call on the WG mailing list to confirm tha= t consensus. If you wish to<br>respond, please do so by April 10th.<br><br>= Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-3= 33-2270 (cell)<br>155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA<br></span><a hre= f=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-seri= f"'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-ser= if"'><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>rbridge mai= ling list<u><span style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u></span><a href=3D"mai= lto:rbridge@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rb= ridge@postel.org</span></a><u><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-seri= f";color:blue'><br></span></u><a href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/= listinfo/rbridge"><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://m= ailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</span></a><span style=3D'font-fa= mily:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span><tt><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>= _______________________________________________</span></tt><span style=3D'f= ont-size:10.0pt'><br><tt>rbridge mailing list</tt><br><tt><a href=3D"mailto= :rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a></tt><br><tt><a href=3D"http://m= ailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge">http://mailman.postel.org/mailm= an/listinfo/rbridge</a></tt><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><pre><o:p> <= /o:p></pre><pre>--------------------------------------------------------<o:= p></o:p></pre><pre>ZTE Information Security Notice: The=  information contained in this mail is s= olely property of the sender's organization. = This mail communication is confidential. Recipient= s named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose&nbs= p;the contents of this communication to other= s.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>This email and any files t= ransmitted with it are confidential and inten= ded solely for the use of the individual=  or entity to whom they are addressed.&n= bsp;If you have received this email in e= rror please notify the originator of the = ;message. Any views expressed in this message=  are those of the individual sender.<o:p></o:= p></pre><pre>This message has been scanned for&nbs= p;viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system.<o= :p></o:p></pre></div></body></html>= --_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD471144127CEXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============0708695816== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0708695816==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 11:56:05 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E9721E8128 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CiKnhiNtvVVR for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; 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Tue, 27 Mar 2012 14:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4F72097F.6040203@iol.unh.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 14:39:59 -0400 From: Perry Gagne <pgagne@iol.unh.edu> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:10.0.1) Gecko/20120209 Thunderbird/10.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: pgagne@iol.unh.edu Subject: [rbridge] TRILL Adjacency Event A7 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hello, I have a question regarding the one of the adjacency events describe in RFC 6327. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6327#section-3.3 Event A7 is describe as "MTU test was successful but now fails", how could this happen? Is there a case where this can happen? The only one I can come up with is if RB1 successfully tests RB2, then RB2 unsuccessfully tests RB1. The base RFC says you just need to test the MTU when an adjacency comes up. This event seems to indicate one would test the MTU every X period of time. I am trying to design a conformance test around this (part of a larger set of tests related to RFC 6327) so I am trying to find the best way to simulate this. Thank You -- Perry R. Gagne Research and Development Bridge Functions Consortium InterOperability Lab, University of New Hampshire Email: pgagne@iol.unh.edu Phone (BFC): +1-603-862-3525 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 13:17:53 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658E121F8731 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:17:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.618 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.618 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.314, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5TpPkB0JxyrE for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90FC21F872E for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2RK21Pj006723; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2RK1YrQ006654 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1K00L3P7MK63@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:01:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1K00K4N7MK2H@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:01:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml209-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHU47865; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:01:31 +0800 Received: from SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) by szxeml209-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.184) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:01:25 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by szxeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:01:27 +0800 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:01:26 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang <zhangmingui@huawei.com> Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIFRSSUxMIEFkamFjZW5jeSBFdmVudCBBNw==?= In-reply-to: <4F72097F.6040203@iol.unh.edu> X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.69] To: Perry Gagne <pgagne@iol.unh.edu>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org> Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CACFF3@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] TRILL Adjacency Event A7 Thread-index: AQHNDEuiaRuBlCsaXk2jrBlbIp9zL5Z+iidB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4F72097F.6040203@iol.unh.edu> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2RK1YrQ006654 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2048378508==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============2048378508== Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-CN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Perry, Please see comments inline below. Best regards, Mingui ________________________________________ ·¢¼þÈË: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] ´ú±í Perry Gagne [pgagne@iol.unh.edu] ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2012Äê3ÔÂ28ÈÕ 2:39 µ½: rbridge@postel.org Ö÷Ìâ: [rbridge] TRILL Adjacency Event A7 Hello, I have a question regarding the one of the adjacency events describe in RFC 6327. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6327#section-3.3 Event A7 is describe as "MTU test was successful but now fails", how could this happen? Is there a case where this can happen? [ZMG] I recommend you read draft-zhang-trill-mtu-negotiation-02. Both Figure 2.1 and Figure 2.2 are such examples. The only one I can come up with is if RB1 successfully tests RB2, then RB2 unsuccessfully tests RB1. The base RFC says you just need to test the MTU when an adjacency comes up. This event seems to indicate one would test the MTU every X period of time. [ZMG] Since MTU testing can be resource consuming. Periodically MTU testing should not be encouraged. Since the link MTU testing depends on the campus-wide Sz, RBridges should trigger MTU testing each time the campus-wide Sz changes. I am trying to design a conformance test around this (part of a larger set of tests related to RFC 6327) so I am trying to find the best way to simulate this. Thank You -- Perry R. Gagne Research and Development Bridge Functions Consortium InterOperability Lab, University of New Hampshire Email: pgagne@iol.unh.edu Phone (BFC): +1-603-862-3525 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============2048378508== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============2048378508==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 13:56:39 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547E921E8086 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MVTBOFrVRF0x for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BBA21E8011 for <trill-archive-Osh9cae4@lists.ietf.org>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2RKmTs6014151; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-f52.google.com (mail-ee0-f52.google.com [74.125.83.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2RKm0rf014083 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by eekd4 with SMTP id d4so126449eek.39 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:48:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0co1aViYgHElqqGWkDXg7JzjysnLrRqoJL5MUW2s24k=; b=jeQXwTdjVwnoiYlU/5/zq1qvdOhtXxkFefCz6TV5LhzskGB5MrcvD27m7bHPaUHYeq SDkvNK+9mYl593RvYM5v+wrCpcZ4K3h9YzJ7JDHLGOo1IPJD4cnAcx4/VNa2zNkmMayt RWTRO3Rs+w5P2lXeKYRbuE2kCs2RxFj7aebO4ThPZHX9D87tiY7zA0VKeQ462zQt/ez5 kBUi3A3cIPsokDyIJoA/gZ9Y4QpbyWJu/njPSW7sUy9y5if2osArPURwWQgS2OLyeYj6 K058z4z5ndtLBcaefkBKeVab189+oc9WEbWv5Y1FfpHeTEwzk2LlCCelhUyfa3q5rUVN UURA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.126.5 with SMTP id a5mr3646771eei.72.1332881279876; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.34.78 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4F72097F.6040203@iol.unh.edu> References: <4F72097F.6040203@iol.unh.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:47:59 -0700 Message-ID: <CAFOuuo59ZeH2pcaNopCYhyt=1vfSWihsUM4CFMcp5E_0MLbXnw@mail.gmail.com> From: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com> To: Perry Gagne <pgagne@iol.unh.edu> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: radiaperlman@gmail.com X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boreas.isi.edu id q2RKm0rf014083 Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] TRILL Adjacency Event A7 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org How could that happen? Perhaps the link between R1 and R2 is a bridged link, and the topology changes, and now the (spanning tree) path between R1 and R2 goes through different bridges with different MTUs than the first path. Radia On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Perry Gagne <pgagne@iol.unh.edu> wrote: > Hello, > > I have a question regarding the one of the adjacency events describe in > RFC 6327. > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6327#section-3.3 > > Event A7 is describe as "MTU test was successful but now fails", how > could this happen? > > Is there a case where this can happen? The only one I can come up with > is if =A0RB1 successfully tests RB2, then RB2 unsuccessfully tests RB1. > The base RFC says you just need to test the MTU when an adjacency comes > up. This event seems to indicate one would test the MTU every X period > of time. > > I am trying to design a conformance test around this (part of a larger > set of tests related to RFC 6327) so I am trying to find the best way to > simulate this. > > Thank You > -- > Perry R. Gagne > Research and Development > Bridge Functions Consortium > > InterOperability Lab, University of New Hampshire > Email: pgagne@iol.unh.edu > Phone (BFC): +1-603-862-3525 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 14:24:44 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF5921F852B for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 14:24:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.846 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, 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+0800 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:11:19 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang <zhangmingui@huawei.com> Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIENhbGwgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXRpc3NhLXRyaWxsLWNt?= =?gb2312?Q?t-00_to_WG_draft?= In-reply-to: <OFB0DE3615.39F65513-ON482579CE.003C2CB1-482579CE.003E7761@zte.com.cn> X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.69] To: "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn" <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzx X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <OFB0DE3615.39F65513-ON482579CE.003C2CB1-482579CE.003E7761@zte.com.cn> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" <rbridge-bounces@postel.org>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1702817475==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1702817475== Content-type: multipart/alternative; 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charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <html dir=3D"ltr"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dgb2312"> <style type=3D"text/css" id=3D"owaParaStyle"></style> </head> <body fpstyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0"> <div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: = 10pt;"> <div>Yes, CMT is incapable to be incrementally deployed in an RBr= idges campus. It requires that all RBridges in one campus to be updated to = support the Affinity TLV.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Actually, the capability that Multi-Topology TRILL can physically segr= egate data traffic can be used to solve the same RPFC problem in the active= -active multi-homing. And, it can be designed to be well "incrementall= y deploy-able". </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Best regards,</div> <div>Mingui</div> <div><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px= "> <hr tabindex=3D"-1"> <div id=3D"divRpF596248" style=3D"direction: ltr; "><font face=3D"Tahoma" s= ize=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:</b> rbridge-bounces@post= el.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [z= hai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]<br> <b>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:</b> 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C227=C8=D5 19:18<br> <b>=B5=BD:</b> Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<br> <b>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org;= hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn<br> <b>=D6=F7=CC=E2:</b> Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft<br> </font><br> </div> <div></div> <div><br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Hi Tissa</font> <br> <br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">In your CMT draft, if one old RBridge = is momitored not supporting affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbal= e in all the TRILL campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for </font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">backward compati= bility</font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"> in CMT. So CMT can not w= ork until all the RBridges support affinitive-TLV.</font> <br> <br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">However, in the PN draft, there is no = such backward compatibiltiy. PN draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the ps= eudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and = the members are configured statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between the members of= a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN draft can also wo= rk</font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri"> for the scena= rio described in your CMT</font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"> draft.</font> <br> <br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br> Thanks,<br> Zhai Hongjun<br> """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""<br> Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation<br= > No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012<br> <br> Zhai Hongjun<br> <br> Tel: +86-25-52877345<br> Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn<br> """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&qu= ot;""""""""<br> <br> </font><br> <br> <br> <table width=3D"100%"> <tbody> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td width=3D"36%"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><b>"Tissa Senev= irathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com></b> </font><br> <font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</font> <p><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">2012-03-27 18:12</font> </p> </td> <td width=3D"63%"> <table width=3D"100%"> <tbody> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB</font></div> </td> <td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, &qu= ot;Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com></font> </td> </tr> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=B3=AD=CB=CD</fon= t></div> </td> <td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">rbridge@postel.org, rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</font> </td> </tr> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=D6=F7=CC=E2</fon= t></div> </td> <td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa= -trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</font></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <br> <table> <tbody> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td></td> <td></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <br> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <br> <br> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">Hi Hu</font> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri"> </font> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">CMT draft discuss about= backward compatibility  and your assessment of RPF failure when older= RBridges present is incorrect.</font> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri"> </font> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">Additionally I am not c= lear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario described in the CMT. Per th= e discussion we have in Taipie, most Data Centers and Enterprise have multi= home devices connected to the TRILL edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the LAG bundli= ng at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the draft. Hence = CMT draft address very crucial deployment scenario.</font> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri"> </font> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">Thanks</font> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">Tissa</font> <br> <font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri"> </font> <br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>From:</b> rbridge-bounces@postel.org [m= ailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn<b><br> Sent:</b> Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM<b><br> To:</b> Donald Eastlake<b><br> Cc:</b> rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org<b><br> Subject:</b> Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</f= ont> <br> <font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"> </font> <br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><br> Hi,all</font><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"> <br> </font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><br> We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if a= ll the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the CMT = can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual RBridg= e nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that = CMT try to solve is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT shoul= d be a optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wo= nder whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back compatibility issue.</font><font size=3D"3" f= ace=3D"sans-serif"> <br> </font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><br> There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I su= ggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the two sol= utions</font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Times New Roman">.</font><font size= =3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"> <br> </font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><br> Thanks</font><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"><br> <br> </font> <p> <table width=3D"100%"> <tbody> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td width=3D"43%"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial"><b>Donald Eastlake <</= b></font><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><font size= =3D"1" color=3D"blue" face=3D"Arial"><b><u>d3e3e3@gmail.com</u></b></font><= /a><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial"><b>></b> </font><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><br> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</font><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial">:  </font><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org" target=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"= 1" color=3D"blue" face=3D"Arial"><u>rbridge-bounces@postel.org</u></font></= a><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"> </font> <p><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial">2012-03-27 06:38</font><font size=3D"3" = face=3D"sans-serif"> </font></p> </td> <td width=3D"56%"><br> <table width=3D"100%"> <tbody> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td width=3D"11%"> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB</font></div> </td> <td width=3D"88%"><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org" target=3D"_blank"><= font size=3D"1" color=3D"blue" face=3D"Arial"><u>rbridge@postel.org</u></fo= nt></a><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=B3=AD=CB=CD</fon= t></div> </td> <td></td> </tr> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td> <div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=D6=F7=CC=E2</fon= t></div> </td> <td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial">[rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cm= t-00 to WG draft</font></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <br> <font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"> </font> <p><br> <table width=3D"100%"> <tbody> <tr valign=3D"top"> <td width=3D"50%"></td> <td width=3D"50%"></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <br> </p> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <br> <font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"><br> <br> <br> During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the<br> room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a<br> call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to<br> respond, please do so by April 10th.<br> <br> Thanks,<br> Donald<br> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D<br> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br> 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA<br> </font><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"= 3" color=3D"blue" face=3D"sans-serif"><u>d3e3e3@gmail.com</u></font></a><fo= nt size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif"><br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> rbridge mailing list</font><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue" face=3D"sans-ser= if"><u><br> </u></font><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org" target=3D"_blank"><font si= ze=3D"3" color=3D"blue" face=3D"sans-serif"><u>rbridge@postel.org</u></font= ></a><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue" face=3D"sans-serif"><u><br> </u></font><a href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge" t= arget=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue" face=3D"sans-serif"><u>htt= p://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</u></font></a><font size=3D= "3" face=3D"sans-serif"><br> </font><tt><font size=3D"2">_______________________________________________= <br> rbridge mailing list<br> rbridge@postel.org<br> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge<br> </font></tt><br> <br> </p> <pre>--------------------------------------------------------=0A= ZTE Information Security Notice: The information&n= bsp;contained in this mail is solely property=  of the sender's organization. This mail = ;communication is confidential. Recipients named a= bove are obligated to maintain secrecy and&nb= sp;are not permitted to disclose the contents=  of this communication to others.=0A= This email and any files transmitted with&nbs= p;it are confidential and intended solely for=  the use of the individual or entity&nbs= p;to whom they are addressed. If you hav= e received this email in error please no= tify the originator of the message. Any = views expressed in this message are those&nbs= p;of the individual sender.=0A= This message has been scanned for viruses&nbs= p;and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system.=0A= </pre> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> --Boundary_(ID_dBFckqwQYD36xMRW2sFuCQ)-- --===============1702817475== Content-Type: text/plain; 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X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiAFABBDck+rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABCA4JGgnqqLAGIeIEHggkBAQEEAQEBDwEJARADFycbAgEGAhEEAQELBhABBgEEAgEgBh8JCAIEEwgTB4dnAQubC40CCINojhOJcXaCf4INOWMEiFiOGooggxSBaIMHgTw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,659,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="34818826" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Mar 2012 22:50:25 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2RMoPZp017947 for <rbridge@postel.org>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:50:25 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:50:24 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:50:21 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0A= References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <OFB0DE3615.39F65513-ON482579CE.003C2CB1-482579CE.003E7761@zte.com.cn> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> To: <rbridge@postel.org> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2012 22:50:24.0759 (UTC) FILETIME=[FF488870:01CD0C6B] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0198336137==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0198336137== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C6B.FF366F61" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C6B.FF366F61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mingui =20 We have had these discussions before and to recapping below for the = benefit of the WG mailist: =20 1. Multi topology is a complex solution that involve lot more than = a single TLV. Using multi-topology to solve this is like taking canon to = kill a mosquito 2. TRILL deployments are in it=A1=AFs infancy (to the point = nonexistent in deployments) and these backward compatibility issues = you are talking is simply academic at this time. Bringing multi topology = to Just to solve that academic scenario is making it more complex than = what is required. (Note: we do have backward compatibility mode) 3. What we need right now is a simpler solution to support = active-active edge 4. Lastly not all people need active-active deployments may *not* = even want to run multi-topology. So tying active-active to = multi-topology is saying everyone must deploy multi-topology if and when = they need active-active solution. Which is non starter in most = deployments. =20 In summary: If you have great ideas on how to use multi-topology to = implement active-active edge then that should be followed up as part of = the multi-topology. What we need now is a simplified approach that can = be present in all deployments. Hence CMT draft can move forward = independently. =20 =20 From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 2:11 PM To: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 Yes, CMT is incapable to be incrementally deployed in an RBridges = campus. It requires that all RBridges in one campus to be updated to = support the Affinity TLV. =20 Actually, the capability that Multi-Topology TRILL can physically = segregate data traffic can be used to solve the same RPFC problem in the = active-active multi-homing. And, it can be designed to be well = "incrementally deploy-able".=20 =20 Best regards, Mingui =20 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn = [zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C227=C8=D5 19:18 =B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Tissa=20 In your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for backward compatibility in = CMT. So CMT can not work until all the RBridges support affinitive-TLV.=20 However, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN = draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of = a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work for the scenario described in your CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 2012-03-27 18:12=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com>=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD rbridge@postel.org, rbridge-bounces@postel.org=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =09 Hi Hu=20 =20 CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility and your assessment of = RPF failure when older RBridges present is incorrect.=20 =20 Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment scenario.=20 =20 Thanks=20 Tissa=20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM To: Donald Eastlake Cc: rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 =20 Hi,all=20 We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only = if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, = the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the = virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC = check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve = is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a = optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder = whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back = compatibility issue.=20 There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.=20 Thanks Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 2012-03-27 06:38=20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> =20 =B3=AD=CB=CD =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =09 During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to respond, please do so by April 10th. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com>=20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org>=20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>=20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C6B.FF366F61 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dgb2312"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><!--[if = !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:SimSun; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Consolas; panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"\@SimSun"; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} pre {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char"; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} tt {mso-style-priority:99; font-family:SimSun;} p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char"; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:8.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph {mso-style-priority:34; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:.5in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} span.HTMLPreformattedChar {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted"; font-family:Consolas;} span.EmailStyle21 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} span.BalloonTextChar {mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Balloon Text"; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:788478581; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-1117503776 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 = 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Mingui<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>We have had these discussions before and to recapping below for the = benefit of the WG mailist:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if = !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'>       = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Multi topology is a complex solution that involve lot more than a = single TLV. Using multi-topology to solve this is like taking canon to = kill a mosquito<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if = !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'>       = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>TRILL deployments are in it=A1=AFs infancy (to the point nonexistent = in  deployments)  and these backward compatibility issues you = are talking is simply academic at this time. Bringing multi topology to = Just to solve that academic scenario is making it more complex than what = is required. (Note: we do have backward compatibility = mode)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if = !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'>       = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>What we need right now is a simpler solution to support active-active = edge<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if = !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'>       = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Lastly not all people need active-active deployments may *<b>not</b>* = even want to run multi-topology. So tying active-active to = multi-topology is saying everyone must deploy multi-topology if and when = they need active-active solution. Which is non starter in most = deployments.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>In summary: If you have great ideas on how to use multi-topology to = implement active-active edge then that should be followed up as part of = the multi-topology. What we need now is a simplified approach that can = be present in all deployments. Hence CMT draft can move forward = independently.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, = March 27, 2012 2:11 PM<br><b>To:</b> zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn; Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)<br><b>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; = rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn<br><b>Subject:</b> </span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=B4=F0=B8=B4</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= Yes, CMT is incapable to be incrementally deployed in an = RBridges campus. It requires that all RBridges in one campus to be = updated to support the Affinity TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= <o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= Actually, the capability that Multi-Topology TRILL can physically = segregate data traffic can be used to solve the same RPFC problem in the = active-active multi-homing. And, it can be designed to be well = "incrementally = deploy-able". <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= <o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= Mingui<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= <o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span = style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black'><hr size=3D2 = width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></span></div><div id=3DdivRpF596248><p = class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span></b><b><s= pan = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= :</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] </span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=B4=FA=B1=ED</span><span = lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= <a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a> = [zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]<br></span><b><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4</span></b= ><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= :</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= 2012</span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=C4=EA</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= 3</span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=D4=C2</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= 27</span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=C8=D5</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= 19:18<br></span><b><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=B5=BD</span></b><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= :</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<br><b>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>; <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= ; <a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a><br></span= ><b><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span></b><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= :</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>H= i Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I= n your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>backward compatibility</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> = in CMT. So CMT can not work until all the RBridges support = affinitive-TLV.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>H= owever, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN = draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of = a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> for the scenario described in your CMT</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> = draft.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><= br>Thanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: <a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a><br>&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""<br><br></span= ><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"36%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:36.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <<a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com">tsenevir@cisco.com</a>></span></b><= span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><br><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>:  <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= </span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 18:12</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"63%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:63.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><<a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>>, = "Donald Eastlake" <<a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>></span> = <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>, <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= </span> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><br><br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Hi Hu</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility  and your = assessment of RPF failure when older RBridges present is = incorrect.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment = scenario.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Thanks</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= From:</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= [<a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.= org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a><b><br>Sen= t:</b> Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM<b><br>To:</b> Donald = Eastlake<b><br>Cc:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>; <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= <b><br>Subject:</b> Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to = WG draft</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span= style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><= br>Hi,all</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><= br>We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. = Only if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity = sub-tlv, the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't = announce the virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there = may exist RPC check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT = try to solve is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should = be a optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I = wonder whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back = compatibility issue.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><= br>There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same = issue. I suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare = with the two solutions</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'>.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><= br>Thanks</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"43%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:43.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" = target=3D"_blank"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org" = target=3D"_blank"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 06:38</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"56%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:56.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"11%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:11.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"88%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:88.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org" = target=3D"_blank"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span = lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>[rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br><br><br>During= the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the<br>room = to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a<br>call = on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish = to<br>respond, please do so by April = 10th.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>Donald E. Eastlake = 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA = 01757 USA<br></span><span style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" = target=3D"_blank"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</span></a></s= pan><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br><br>__________= _____________________________________<br>rbridge mailing = list</span><u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><spa= n style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black'><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org" target=3D"_blank"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel.org</span></a><= /span><u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><spa= n style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black'><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge" = target=3D"_blank"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://mailman.postel.org/mail= man/listinfo/rbridge</span></a></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br></span><tt><sp= an = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>__________________________________= _____________</span></tt><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br><tt>rbridge mailing = list</tt><br><tt><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a></tt><br><tt><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge">http://mailma= n.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</a></tt><br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span = style=3D'color:black'>---------------------------------------------------= -----<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span = style=3D'color:black'>ZTE Information Security Notice:&nbs= p;The information contained in this mail is=  solely property of the sender's organizati= on. This mail communication is confidential.&nbs= p;Recipients named above are obligated to m= aintain secrecy and are not permitted to&nb= sp;disclose the contents of this communication&n= bsp;to others.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span = style=3D'color:black'>This email and any files t= ransmitted with it are confidential and int= ended solely for the use of the indivi= dual or entity to whom they are addres= sed. If you have received this email i= n error please notify the originator of&nbs= p;the message. Any views expressed in this&= nbsp;message are those of the individual se= nder.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span = style=3D'color:black'>This message has been scanned&n= bsp;for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam&n= bsp;system.<o:p></o:p></span></pre></div></div></div></div></body></html> ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0C6B.FF366F61-- --===============0198336137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0198336137==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 22:10:08 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A489821E808B for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:10:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.308 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.290, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9u3LsZZIUk+5 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; 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Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.34.78 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:52:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <OFB0DE3615.39F65513-ON482579CE.003C2CB1-482579CE.003E7761@zte.com.cn> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:52:28 -0700 Message-ID: <CAFOuuo79GLE1QQ3MEn=Wx0z-eY8Vsnscy-bVw_8dmKSw8Efe_Q@mail.gmail.com> From: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com> To: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: radiaperlman@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1477198217==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1477198217== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec52be6a1dce93f04bc465fa9 --bcaec52be6a1dce93f04bc465fa9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It is my understanding that a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link Of course, no solution is ideal. It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's still worth doing. So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link: First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode nickname when encapsulating unicast. Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems. However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees, here were some of the proposed solutions. So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame: 1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus. Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible. Con: more hops, might be difficult in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet. 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible. Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast, or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame from S). ------ There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to work. Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I can live with it. Radia --bcaec52be6a1dce93f04bc465fa9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div>It is my understanding that</div> <div>a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus</div> <div>b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are active/ac= tive RBs on any link</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>Of course, no solution is ideal.=A0 It might have been nice to write u= p all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's</div> <div>still worth doing.</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be act= ive/active/active on a link:</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree,= unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode</div> <div>nickname when encapsulating unicast.</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use= the pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating</div> <div>multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work witho= ut any problems.</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees,</div= > <div>here were some of the proposed solutions.=A0 So, let's say that R1= and R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's= </div> <div>port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsula= te a multidestination frame:</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the pack= et (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus.</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backw= ards compatible.=A0 Con: more hops, might be difficult</div> <div>in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be diffi= cult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet.</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in= this case</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backw= ards compatible.=A0 Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have</div> <div>frequent learning changes of the source MAC S=A0between being on the p= seudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast,</div> <div>or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsu= late a multidestination frame from S).</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>------</div> <div>There might have been some other proposals, but they wound=A0up not to= work.</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvan= tages I mentioned above, but I can live with it.</div> <div>=A0</div> <div>Radia=A0<br></div> --bcaec52be6a1dce93f04bc465fa9-- --===============1477198217== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1477198217==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 23:14:45 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6AB21F8627 for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:14:45 -0700 (PDT) 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(mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2S5qFFS004195; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.100] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 621292371461274; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:52:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.21] by [192.168.168.16] with StormMail ESMTP id 93082.4530088284; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:51:53 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse02.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id q2S5pt4B030130; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:51:56 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD471144127C@EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com> To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: B570DC1A:1354C7D4-482579CF:00046499; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: <OFB570DC1A.1354C7D4-ON482579CF.00046499-482579CF.00208A19@zte.com.cn> From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:51:54 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.1FP4|July 25, 2010) at 2012-03-28 13:51:58, Serialize complete at 2012-03-28 13:51:58 X-MAIL: mse02.zte.com.cn q2S5pt4B030130 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" <rbridge-bounces@postel.org>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============2054394965==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Tue Mar 27 23:51:52 2012 Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC4921E814C for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:51:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.823 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.823 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.825, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, WEIRD_QUOTING=1.396] 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To: "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn" <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:57:02 +0530 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: Ac0Mpu2ejDl5KrkPRLmR5Ag4TcCG4gABFLoQ Message-ID: <CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD47114412BE@EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com> References: <CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD471144127C@EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com> <OFB570DC1A.1354C7D4-ON482579CF.00046499-482579CF.00208A19@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <OFB570DC1A.1354C7D4-ON482579CF.00046499-482579CF.00208A19@zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jana@force10networks.com Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" <rbridge-bounces@postel.org>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1470970363==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1470970363== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD47114412BEEXCHCLUSTER11_" 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Preformatted"; font-family:Consolas;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli= nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f= ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Zhai,<= o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><s= pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:= 12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";co= lor:#1F497D'> I think the other point in the pN draft is<o:p></o:p></span><= /p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-= size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> The requiremen= t in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with the PN node as the roo= t of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for e.g. 10, than we would n= eed 10 trees where each tree has the corresponding PN as the root of the tr= ee.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt= '><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1= F497D'>  A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier,= but since this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt tha= t the requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be possible= .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>= <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F4= 97D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-botto= m:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";= color:#1F497D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ma= rgin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sa= ns-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jana<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal sty= le=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso= Normal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-= family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The main difference between PN draft and CMT d= raft as follows:</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"'>1) In PN draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to c= arry pseudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge group,</span> <br><sp= an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2) While in = CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry pseudo-nickname and the want= ed DTrees by a member RBridge.</span> <br><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0= pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>> 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, = the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their links to RB1, </span><br><span style=3D= 'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>> RB2=A1=AD RBk as a= LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello frame on this link towards CE1,</spa= n> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&g= t; this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Henc= e the concept</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial= ","sans-serif"'>> of AF will not be applicable in this scenario</span> <= br><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In= PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to negotia= te the pseudo-nickname of a virtual </span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.= 0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RBridge group. For a virtual RBridge = group, if its member RBridges and pseudo-nickname are configured statically= </span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif= "'>by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are not requisite in PN draft. = Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft, </span><br><span style=3D'font-si= ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname = to an RBriges Group and using pseudo-LSP to carry information of this RBrid= ge group, </span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"'>is also applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CM= T draft). </span><br><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial= ","sans-serif"'>Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can av= oid the backward compatibility issue.</span> <br><br><br><span style=3D'fon= t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>> 2) In the PN draft, on= ly the AF will forward all traffic into and out of this network, </span><br= ><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>> and= this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft the link= s are </span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-= serif"'>> all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) = is sent to only one of </span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami= ly:"Arial","sans-serif"'>> the RB1 and not to all of them.</span> <br><b= r><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Althoug= h the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly based on Ethe= rnet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname </span><br><span style=3D'font-size:= 10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>and employing pseudo-LSP to carry = RB Group info is also applicable in other scenario, such as LAGs and multi-= homing. </span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","san= s-serif"'>Whether using one member RB or all member RBs to forward traffic = for an end system, it depends on in which scenario the </span><br><span sty= le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>pseudo-nickname is= used, but not the different ways to implement the pseudo-nickname function= between PN draft and CMT draft.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt= ;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Thanks,<br>Zhai Hongjun<br>"= ;""""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""&q= uot;""""""<br>Protocol Development Dept.VI, C= entral R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuat= ai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: +86= -25-52877345<br>Email: <a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hong= jun@zte.com.cn</a><br>"""""""""= ;""""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""<b= r><br></span><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D= 0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"36= %" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:36.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p cl= ass=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans= -serif"'>Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <<a href=3D"mailto:jana@force10= networks.com">jana@force10networks.com</a>></span></b><span style=3D'fon= t-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><s= pan style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 0= 0:09</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"63%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'wid= th:63.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table class=3DMsoNormalTable bor= der=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valig= n=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal alig= n=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:= 7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style= =3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo= nt-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"<a href=3D"mailto:zha= i.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a>" <<a href=3D"mail= to:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a>>, "Tissa Se= nevirathne (tsenevir)" <<a href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com">tsene= vir@cisco.com</a>></span> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Drigh= t style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>= =B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.7= 5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;= font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald Eastlake <<a href=3D"mailto:d3e= 3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@po= stel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel= .org">rbridge@postel.org</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@p= ostel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>>, "<a href=3D= "mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>" <<a href= =3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>></span> <o:p= ></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75p= t .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><spa= n lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p>= </td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3D= MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>= RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><o:p></o:= p></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table cl= ass=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style= =3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding= :.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=3DMs= oNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><span style=3D'font-size= :10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Zhai,</span> <= br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color= :#1F497D'> </span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Few points:</span> <br><span style=3D'fo= nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </sp= an> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";= color:#1F497D'>1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. tre= at their links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL h= ello frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by any of th= e other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be applicabl= e in this scenario</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <br><span style=3D'font-= size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>2)  In t= he PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out of this netw= ork, and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft = the links are all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1)= is sent to only one of the RB1 and not to all of them.</span> <br><span st= yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&= nbsp;</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san= s-serif";color:#1F497D'>  So I think the problem space that these two = drafts are discussing are different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be = applicable to the LAG active-active load balancing scenarios described in t= he CMT draft.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calib= ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:= 10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks</span> <br>= <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1= F497D'>Jana</span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri= ","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <br><span style=3D'font-size:10= .0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <br><b= ><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</= span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'= > <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org<= /a> [<a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">mailto:rbridge-bounces@p= ostel.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.c= n">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a><b><br>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:49= PM<b><br>To:</b> Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<b><br>Cc:</b> Donald Eastla= ke; <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>; <a href= =3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>; <a h= ref=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a><b><br>Subjec= t:</b> Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span> <= br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <br><span= style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi Tissa</= span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span sty= le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>In your CMT dr= aft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting affinitive-TLV, the CMT= function will be disbale in all the TRILL campus. In my mind, that's your = discussion for </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>backward compatibility</span><span style=3D'fo= nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> in CMT. So CMT can not wo= rk until all the RBridges support affinitive-TLV.</span><span style=3D'font= -family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;f= ont-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>However, in the PN draft, there is no = such backward compatibiltiy. PN draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the ps= eudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and = the members are configured statically by network administors, no hello PDUs= are necessary between the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP= method given in PN draft can also work</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0= pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> for the scenario desc= ribed in your CMT</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial"= ,"sans-serif"'> draft.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif= "'> <br></span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-se= rif"'><br><br>Thanks,<br>Zhai Hongjun<br>"""""&quo= t;""""""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""&= quot;"<br>Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE= Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.Chi= na, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span= ><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt= ;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>""= ;""""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""&q= uot;""""""<br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><tabl= e class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D= 'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"45%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:45.0%;padd= ing:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-si= ze:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tissa Senevirathne (tsenev= ir)" <</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><b><span sty= le=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco.com<= /span></b></a><b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-s= erif"'>></span></b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"'> <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2= =BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans= -serif"'>:  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span= style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounces= @postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </s= pan><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"'>2012-03-27 18:12</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans= -serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"54%" valign=3Dtop style= =3D'width:54.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>=  </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 wi= dth=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"8%" valign=3Dtop style= =3D'width:8.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align= =3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7= .5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"91%" valign= =3Dtop style=3D'width:91.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMso= Normal><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><= ;</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span style=3D'font-size:7= .5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</span></a><spa= n style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, "Do= nald Eastlake" <</span><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span st= yle=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</= span></a><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&= gt;</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o= :p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .7= 5pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span la= ng=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td= ><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoN= ormal><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;= font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel.org</span></a><span style= =3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>, </span><a href=3D"m= ailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-famil= y:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D= 'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td= valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNorma= l align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font= -size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style= =3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo= nt-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [rbridge] Call for draf= t-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbs= p;</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTa= ble border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><t= d width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt= .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.7= 5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><br><span sty= le=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br></span><span style=3D'font-= size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Hi Hu</sp= an><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span style=3D'= font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></sp= an><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span styl= e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br= >CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility  and your assessment o= f RPF failure when older RBridges present is incorrect.</span><span style= =3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0= pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><span style= =3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span style=3D'font-size= :10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Additionally = I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario described in the C= MT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data Centers and Enterprise = have multi home devices connected to the TRILL edge. They will not let LAN = Hello to pass through them because of the LAG bundling at the edge. Please = refer to the reference topology in the draft. Hence CMT draft address very = crucial deployment scenario.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans= -serif"'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san= s-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans= -serif"'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"= ,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Thanks</span><span style=3D'font-family:"A= rial","sans-serif"'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-fami= ly:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil= y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><span style=3D'font-fami= ly:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo= nt-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-si= ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbri= dge-bounces@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= ","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-si= ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbr= idge-bounces@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahom= a","sans-serif"'>mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D= 'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>= </span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span style=3D'font-size:10= .0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</span></a><b>= <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Sent= :</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-seri= f"'> Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM<b><br>To:</b> Donald Eastlake<b><br>Cc:= </b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:= 10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel.org</span></a><spa= n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;= font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><b>= <span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subj= ect:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-s= erif"'> Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><= span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br> </span><span sty= le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi,all</sp= an><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span style=3D'= font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>We have discusse= d that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if all the member RB= ridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the CMT can work correct= ly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual RBridge nickname and t= he Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check failure for the virtual RBri= dge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not an essential and key issue for = trill, and CMT should be a optional solution. Some RBridges may not impleme= nt the feature. I wonder whether the CMT will does work actually because of= the back compatibility issue.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sa= ns-serif"'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","san= s-serif"'><br><br>There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves th= e same issue. I suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compar= e with the two solutions</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:= "Times New Roman","serif"'>.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans= -serif"'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-= serif"'><br><br>Thanks</span> <o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td wi= dth=3D"43%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:43.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75= pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Ari= al","sans-serif"'>Donald Eastlake <</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@g= mail.com"><b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif= "'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</span></b></a><b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-fa= mily:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;fo= nt-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'fon= t-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-= family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>:  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounc= es@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-ser= if"'>rbridge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial= ","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;fo= nt-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 06:38</span><span style=3D'font-= family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"56%" = valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:56.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class= =3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span>= <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable borde= r=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width= =3D"11%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:11.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'= ><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang= =3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p>= </td><td width=3D"88%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:88.0%;padding:.75pt .75p= t .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><= span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@pos= tel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span>= <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'>= <span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p>= </p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></= tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class= =3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN st= yle=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign= =3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span= style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>[rbridge] Call = for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></t= able><p><br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br> </sp= an> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbs= p;</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTa= ble border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><t= d width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt= .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.7= 5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p style=3D'marg= in-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>= <br><br>During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in t= he<br>room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a= <br>call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to<b= r>respond, please do so by April 10th.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D<br>Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>155 Beave= r Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA<u><span style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u= ></span><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span style=3D'font-family:"Ari= al","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Ar= ial","sans-serif"'><br><br>_______________________________________________<= br>rbridge mailing list<u><span style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u></span>= <a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif"'>rbridge@postel.org</span></a><u><span style=3D'font-family:"Ari= al","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a href=3D"http://mailman.poste= l.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-se= rif"'>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</span></a><span st= yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>_____________= __________________________________<br>rbridge mailing list<u><span style=3D= 'color:blue'><br></span></u></span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><s= pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@pos= tel.org</span></a><u><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s= ans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/= mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aria= l","sans-serif"'>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</span><= /a><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></= span><br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <br= ><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-------------------------= -------------------------------</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Aria= l","sans-serif"'>ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained= in this mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail co= mmunication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to mainta= in secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communica= tion to others.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'= >This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended= solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.= If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of t= he message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual= sender.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This m= essage has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system.</span= > <o:p></o:p></p><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-------------------------= -------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ZTE Information&n= bsp;Security Notice: The information contained in&= nbsp;this mail is solely property of the = ;sender's organization. This mail communication is=  confidential. Recipients named above are obl= igated to maintain secrecy and are not p= ermitted to disclose the contents of this&nbs= p;communication to others.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>This email&n= bsp;and any files transmitted with it are&nbs= p;confidential and intended solely for the us= e of the individual or entity to whom&nb= sp;they are addressed. If you have received&n= bsp;this email in error please notify the&nbs= p;originator of the message. Any views expres= 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from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2S72lgL015156; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.100] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 621292371461274; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:00:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.20] by [192.168.168.16] with StormMail ESMTP id 93082.4530088284; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:02:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id q2S72YKi015533; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:02:34 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD47114412BE@EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com> To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: A3B5E752:729E0E6A-482579CF:002363DE; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: <OFA3B5E752.729E0E6A-ON482579CF.002363DE-482579CF.00270135@zte.com.cn> From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:02:31 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.1FP4|July 25, 2010) at 2012-03-28 15:02:35, Serialize complete at 2012-03-28 15:02:35 X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn q2S72YKi015533 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" <rbridge-bounces@postel.org>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0072703439==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0072703439== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00270133482579CF_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00270133482579CF_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSmFuYaOsDQoNCkluIFBOIGRyYWZ0LCBpdCBpcyBvcHRpb25hbCBidXQgbm90IG5lY2Vzc2Fy eSB0byB1c2UgUE4gbm9kZSBhcyByb290IHRvIA0KZm9ybSBhIERUcmVlLiBXaGVuIHdlIHdyb3Rl IHRoZSAwMiB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIFBOIGRyYWZ0LCB3ZSBoYWQgY29uc2lkZXJlZCANCnVzaW5nIFBO IG5vZGUgYXMgcm9vdCB0byBmb3JtIHRyZWVzLCBidXQgd2UgZm91bmQgdGhlcmUgd291bGQgbm90 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<OFA3B5E752.729E0E6A-ON482579CF.002363DE-482579CF.00270135@zte.com.cn> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: Ac0MsNJ8CywoLQkgT9m/uULaKjZyEwAAaOXQ References: <CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD47114412BE@EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com> <OFA3B5E752.729E0E6A-ON482579CF.002363DE-482579CF.00270135@zte.com.cn> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> To: <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>, "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <jana@force10networks.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 07:24:01.0191 (UTC) FILETIME=[BF4EE370:01CD0CB3] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, rbridge@postel.org, rbridge-bounces@postel.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0154262625==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0154262625== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CB3.BEC8F575" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CB3.BEC8F575 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See in-line =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; rbridge@postel.org; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 Hi Jana=A3=AC=20 In PN draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to = form a DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had = considered using PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would = not be as many trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node = as root is only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in = PN draft, which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree.=20 In the later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a virtual = RBridge Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any formed = DTree. If this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward (or = tunnel) the received native traffic to another member RBridge that = directly attaches to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later = RBridge ingresses the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF = check on a remote RBridge.=20 [Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other. Hence each one of them = form a separate PN. Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel = traffic. It does not matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid = this. Tunneling Traffic is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and = this cannot be considered as the standard solution.=20 1. Use of PN as the root is non scalable 2. Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane behavior Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft can = not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges. I have no problem = with your draft to be discussed as a potential way for LAN. But it is = not the solution for multi-homed active-active edge. Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com>=20 2012-03-28 14:27=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn" <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" = <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "rbridge@postel.org" <rbridge@postel.org>, = "rbridge-bounces@postel.org" <rbridge-bounces@postel.org>, "Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 =20 I think the other point in the pN draft is=20 The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with the = PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.=20 A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, but = since this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt that = the requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be = possible.=20 =20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 =20 The main difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:=20 1) In PN draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry = pseudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge group,=20 2) While in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry = pseudo-nickname and the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.=20 > 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1,=20 > RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello frame on this = link towards CE1,=20 > this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept=20 > of AF will not be applicable in this scenario=20 In PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual=20 RBridge group. For a virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and = pseudo-nickname are configured statically=20 by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are not requisite in PN draft. = Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft,=20 i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using pseudo-LSP = to carry information of this RBridge group,=20 is also applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). = Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid the = backward compatibility issue.=20 > 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network,=20 > and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft = the links are=20 > all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent = to only one of=20 > the RB1 and not to all of them.=20 Although the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly = based on Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname=20 and employing pseudo-LSP to carry RB Group info is also applicable in = other scenario, such as LAGs and multi-homing.=20 Whether using one member RB or all member RBs to forward traffic for an = end system, it depends on in which scenario the=20 pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement the = pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com = <mailto:jana@force10networks.com> >=20 2012-03-28 00:09=20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> " = <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> >, "Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> = >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >, = "rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> " <rbridge@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> " <rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> >, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> " <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 =20 Few points:=20 =20 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello = frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by any of the = other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be = applicable in this scenario=20 =20 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network, and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in = the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. = broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 and not to all of = them.=20 =20 So I think the problem space that these two drafts are discussing are = different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be applicable to the LAG = active-active load balancing scenarios described in the CMT draft.=20 =20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 =20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ] = On Behalf Of zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:49 PM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>=20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 =20 Hi Tissa=20 In your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for backward compatibility in = CMT. So CMT can not work until all the RBridges support affinitive-TLV.=20 However, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN = draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of = a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work for the scenario described in your CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com = <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 2012-03-27 18:12=20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >, "Donald = Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> , = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Hu=20 CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility and your assessment of = RPF failure when older RBridges present is incorrect.=20 Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment scenario.=20 Thanks=20 Tissa=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ] = On Behalf Of hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>=20 Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM To: Donald Eastlake Cc: rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org>=20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi,all=20 We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only = if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, = the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the = virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC = check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve = is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a = optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder = whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back = compatibility issue.=20 There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.=20 Thanks=20 Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 2012-03-27 06:38=20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> =20 =B3=AD=CB=CD =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to respond, please do so by April 10th. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com>=20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org>=20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>=20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org>=20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CB3.BEC8F575 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dgb2312"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:SimSun; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Consolas; panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"\@SimSun"; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} pre {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char"; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph {mso-style-priority:34; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:.5in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} span.HTMLPreformattedChar {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted"; font-family:Consolas;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:569728238; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-1294968110 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 = 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>See in-line<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn] = <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan<br><b>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org; = Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi = Jana</span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A3=AC</span><span lang=3DZH-CN> = </span><br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In PN draft, = it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to form a DTree. = When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had considered using PN = node as root to form trees, but we found there would not be as many = trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node as root is = only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in PN draft, = which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree. = </span><br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In the later = approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a virtual RBridge Group are = not attached directly to the PN node in any formed DTree. If this = happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward (or tunnel) the = received native traffic to another member RBridge that directly attaches = to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later RBridge ingresses = the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF check on a remote = RBridge.</span> <span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>[Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other.  Hence each one of = them form a separate PN. Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel = traffic. It does not matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid = this. Tunneling Traffic is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and = this cannot be considered as the standard solution. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'>       = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Use of PN as the root is non scalable<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'>       = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane behavior<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft can = not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges. I have no problem = with your draft to be discussed as a potential way for LAN. But it is = not the solution for multi-homed active-active = edge.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Thank= s,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: <a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a><br>&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""<br><br></span= ><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"36%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:36.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <<a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com">jana@force10networks.com</a>>= </span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 14:27</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"63%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:63.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"<a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a>"= <<a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a>></= span> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <<a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>>, "<a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>" = <<a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>>, = "<a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>" = <<a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>>, = "<a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= " <<a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= >, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <<a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com">tsenevir@cisco.com</a>></span> = <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Hi Zhai,</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= > </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= >I think the other point in the pN draft is</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= >The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with the = PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= >  A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, = but since this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt = that the requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be = possible.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= > </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= >Thanks</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= >Jana</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= > </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The main = difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>1) In PN = draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry pseudo-nickname and = members of a virtual RBridge group,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>2) While = in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry pseudo-nickname and = the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> 1) = In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their links = to RB1, <br>> RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL = hello frame on this link towards CE1,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> = this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> of = AF will not be applicable in this scenario</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>In PN = draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual <br>RBridge group. For a = virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and pseudo-nickname are = configured statically <br>by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are = not requisite in PN draft. Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft, = <br>i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using = pseudo-LSP to carry information of this RBridge group, <br>is also = applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). = </span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Furthermo= re, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid the backward = compatibility issue.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> 2) = In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out of = this network, <br>> and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. = But in the CMT draft the links are <br>> all LAGs, and hence the = traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of <br>> = the RB1 and not to all of them.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Although = the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly based on = Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname <br>and employing pseudo-LSP = to carry RB Group info is also applicable in other scenario, such as = LAGs and multi-homing. <br>Whether using one member RB or all member RBs = to forward traffic for an end system, it depends on in which scenario = the <br>pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement = the pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""<br><br></span><o:p><= /o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 = width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"28%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:28.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>jana@force10ne= tworks.com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 00:09</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"71%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:71.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"3%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"96%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:96.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"</span><= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Hi Zhai,</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Few points:</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat = their links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL = hello frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by any = of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be = applicable in this scenario</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>2)  In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic = into and out of this network, and this is because it is regular Ethernet = link. But in the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence the traffic = (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 and not to = all of them.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br> So I think the problem space that these two drafts are = discussing are different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be = applicable to the LAG active-active load balancing scenarios described = in the CMT draft.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Thanks</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Jana</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On = Behalf Of </b></span><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Sent:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Tuesday, = March 27, 2012 4:49 PM<b><br>To:</b> Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)<b><br>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge@post= el.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:= </span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi = Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>In = your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>backward compatibility</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> in CMT. So = CMT can not work until all the RBridges support = affinitive-TLV.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Howev= er, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN draft = employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of a = virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> for the scenario described in your CMT</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = draft.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""</span><o:p></o:p></p= ><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"45%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:45.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 18:12</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"54%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:54.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"8%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:8.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"91%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:91.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><</span><a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Donald Eastlake" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>, </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Hi Hu</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility  and your = assessment of RPF failure when older RBridges present is = incorrect.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the = scenario described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, = most Data Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to = the TRILL edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because = of the LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology = in the draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment = scenario.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Thanks</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On = Behalf Of </b></span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Sent:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Monday, = March 26, 2012 9:41 PM<b><br>To:</b> Donald Eastlake<b><br>Cc:</b> = </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge@post= el.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:= </span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi,al= l</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>We = have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if = all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the = CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual = RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check = failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not = an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a optional = solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder whether = the CMT will does work actually because of the back compatibility = issue.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>There= is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times = New Roman","serif"'>.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Thank= s</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"43%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:43.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 06:38</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"56%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:56.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"11%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:11.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"88%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:88.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span = lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>[rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br><br>During the = TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the<br>room to = make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a<br>call on = the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish = to<br>respond, please do so by April = 10th.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>Donald E. Eastlake = 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA = 01757 USA<u><span style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u></span><a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</span></a><sp= an = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>______________________= _________________________<br>rbridge mailing list<u><span = style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u></span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel.org</span></a><= u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://mailman.postel.org/mail= man/listinfo/rbridge</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>_________= ______________________________________<br>rbridge mailing = list</span><u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@poste= l.org</span></a><u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://mailma= n.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</span></a><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br> <br>------------= -------------------------------------------- <br>ZTE Information = Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely = property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is = confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy = and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to = others. <br>This email and any files transmitted with it are = confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity = to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error = please notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed in this = message are those of the individual sender. <br>This message has been = scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. </span><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>------------------------------= --------------------------</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>ZTE Information Security = Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the = sender's organization. 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from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:33:15 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:33:12 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA06F7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <OF0DCB966F.D983EBC9-ON482579CF.002A2BDC-482579CF.002D995E@zte.com.cn> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: Ac0MutpqaSj6KTK6R2SYNYa6rahmXgAAcmaA References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA06F1@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <OF0DCB966F.D983EBC9-ON482579CF.002A2BDC-482579CF.002D995E@zte.com.cn> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> To: <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 08:33:15.0505 (UTC) FILETIME=[6B78E610:01CD0CBD] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, rbridge@postel.org, Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com>, rbridge-bounces@postel.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1551999349==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1551999349== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CBD.6B2AFF9D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CBD.6B2AFF9D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You quoted =A1=B0No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. = Only one Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The = pseudo-nickname and all the members of this group will be carried in = this LSP.=A1=B1 =20 Normally PN-LSP is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot see LAN = hellos how does the DRB get elected ? =20 =20 =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:15 AM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft =20 See in-line, pls.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>=20 2012-03-28 15:23=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>, "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" = <jana@force10networks.com>=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, = <rbridge@postel.org>, <rbridge-bounces@postel.org>=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =09 See in-line=20 =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; rbridge@postel.org; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 =20 Hi Jana=A3=AC=20 In PN draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to = form a DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had = considered using PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would = not be as many trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node = as root is only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in = PN draft, which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree.=20 In the later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a virtual = RBridge Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any formed = DTree. If this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward (or = tunnel) the received native traffic to another member RBridge that = directly attaches to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later = RBridge ingresses the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF = check on a remote RBridge.=20 [Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other. =20 -------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 I don't think Hellos are necessary for PN draft. Hellos are used to find = member Rbridges and nogotiate psuedu-nickname in a virtual Rbridge = group. In LAG scenario, pseudo-nickname and members for a virtual = RBridge group should be configured statically by a network = administrator. Based on static configuration, each member Rbdiges in = this group will know this nickname and all other paterners, therefore = Hellos are not required.=20 --------=20 Hence each one of them form a separate PN.=20 -------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this LSP.=20 ----------=20 Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel traffic. It does not = matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid this. Tunneling Traffic = is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and this cannot be = considered as the standard solution.=20 ------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 If the number trees is less than the mumber of members in a RB group, = and all the member s are active, tunneling traffic can not be avoided in = your CMT and my PN draft.=20 --------=20 1. Use of PN as the root is non scalable=20 ------ [by Zhai Hongjun]=20 PN draft dosen't require PN node as root for forming DTrees. PN node as = root is only an optional approach. So the scalabity for this point does = not exist.=20 -------=20 2. Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane behavior=20 --------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 see the above answer.=20 --------=20 Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft can = not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges.=20 ------- [by Zhai Hongjun]=20 I don't think so.=20 --------=20 I have no problem with your draft to be discussed as a potential way = for LAN. But it is not the solution for multi-homed active-active edge.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com = <mailto:jana@force10networks.com> >=20 2012-03-28 14:27=20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> " = <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >, = "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> " = <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >, = "rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> " <rbridge@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> " <rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> >, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" = <tsenevir@cisco.com <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 =20 I think the other point in the pN draft is=20 The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with the = PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.=20 A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, but since = this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt that the = requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be possible.=20 =20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 =20 The main difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:=20 1) In PN draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry = pseudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge group,=20 2) While in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry = pseudo-nickname and the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.=20 > 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1,=20 > RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello frame on this = link towards CE1,=20 > this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept=20 > of AF will not be applicable in this scenario=20 In PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual=20 RBridge group. For a virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and = pseudo-nickname are configured statically=20 by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are not requisite in PN draft. = Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft,=20 i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using pseudo-LSP = to carry information of this RBridge group,=20 is also applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). = Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid the = backward compatibility issue.=20 > 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network,=20 > and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft = the links are=20 > all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent = to only one of=20 > the RB1 and not to all of them.=20 Although the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly = based on Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname=20 and employing pseudo-LSP to carry RB Group info is also applicable in = other scenario, such as LAGs and multi-homing.=20 Whether using one member RB or all member RBs to forward traffic for an = end system, it depends on in which scenario the=20 pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement the = pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com = <mailto:jana@force10networks.com> >=20 2012-03-28 00:09=20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> " = <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> >, "Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> = >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >, = "rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> " <rbridge@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> " <rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> >, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> " <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 Few points:=20 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello = frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by any of the = other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be = applicable in this scenario=20 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network, and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in = the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. = broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 and not to all of = them.=20 So I think the problem space that these two drafts are discussing are = different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be applicable to the LAG = active-active load balancing scenarios described in the CMT draft.=20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ] = On Behalf Of zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:49 PM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>=20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi Tissa=20 In your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for backward compatibility in = CMT. So CMT can not work until all the RBridges support affinitive-TLV.=20 However, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN = draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of = a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work for the scenario described in your CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=20 "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com = <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 2012-03-27 18:12=20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >, "Donald = Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> , = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Hu=20 CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility and your assessment of = RPF failure when older RBridges present is incorrect.=20 Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment scenario.=20 Thanks=20 Tissa=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ] = On Behalf Of hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>=20 Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM To: Donald Eastlake Cc: rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org>=20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi,all=20 We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only = if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, = the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the = virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC = check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve = is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a = optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder = whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back = compatibility issue.=20 There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.=20 Thanks=20 Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 2012-03-27 06:38=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> =20 =B3=AD=CB=CD =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to respond, please do so by April 10th. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com>=20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org>=20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>=20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org>=20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>=20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CBD.6B2AFF9D Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dgb2312"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:SimSun; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Consolas; panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"\@SimSun"; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} pre {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char"; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} span.HTMLPreformattedChar {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted"; font-family:Consolas;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>You quoted =A1=B0</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this = LSP.=A1=B1<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Normally PN-LSP  is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot = see LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn] = <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:15 AM<br><b>To:</b> Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)<br><b>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; = rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org<br><b>Subject:</b> = </span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=B4=F0=B8=B4</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>See = in-line, pls.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: <a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a><br>&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""<br><br></span= ><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"36%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:36.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <<a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com">tsenevir@cisco.com</a>></span></b><= span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 15:23</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"63%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:63.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><<a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a>>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <<a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com">jana@force10networks.com</a>>= </span> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Donald = Eastlake" <<a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>>, <<a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>>, = <<a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>>, = <<a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= ></span> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>See in-line</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span> <br><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = <a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a> = [<a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a= >] <b><br>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM<b><br>To:</b> = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan<b><br>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; <a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>; <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>; <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= ; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<b><br>Subject:</b> RE: [rbridge] Call = for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi = Jana</span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A3=AC</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>In PN = draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to form a = DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had considered using = PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would not be as many = trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node as root is = only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in PN draft, = which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree. </span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>In the = later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a virtual RBridge = Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any formed DTree. If = this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward (or tunnel) the = received native traffic to another member RBridge that directly attaches = to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later RBridge ingresses = the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF check on a remote = RBridge.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>[Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other.  </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>-------[by Zhai Hongjun]</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>I don't think Hellos are necessary for PN draft. Hellos are used to = find member Rbridges and nogotiate psuedu-nickname in a virtual Rbridge = group.  In LAG scenario, pseudo-nickname and members for a virtual = RBridge group should be configured statically by a network = administrator. Based on static configuration,   each member Rbdiges = in this group will know this nickname and all other paterners, therefore =  Hellos are not required.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>--------</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Hence each one of them form a separate PN.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>-------[by Zhai Hongjun]</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this LSP.</span> = <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>----------</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel traffic. It does not = matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid this. Tunneling Traffic = is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and this cannot be = considered as the standard solution. </span><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>------[by Zhai Hongjun]</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>If the number trees is less than the mumber of members in a RB group, = and all the member s are active, tunneling traffic can not be avoided in = your CMT and my PN draft.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>--------</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>1.       Use of PN as the root is non scalable</span> = <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>------ [by Zhai Hongjun]</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>PN draft dosen't require PN node as root for forming DTrees. PN node = as root is only an optional approach.  So the scalabity for this = point does not exist.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>-------</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>2.       Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane = behavior</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>--------[by Zhai Hongjun]</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>see the above answer.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>--------</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft can = not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>------- [by Zhai Hongjun]</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>I don't think so.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>--------</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> I have no problem with your draft to be discussed as a = potential way for LAN. But it is not the solution for multi-homed = active-active edge.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Thank= s,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""<br><br></span><o:p><= /o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 = width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"25%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:25.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>jana@force10ne= tworks.com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 14:27</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"74%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:74.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"2%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:2.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"97%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:97.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"</span><= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Hi Zhai,</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>I think the other point in the pN draft is</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with = the PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br> A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, = but since this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt = that the requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be = possible.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>Thanks</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>Jana</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>The main = difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>1) In PN = draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry pseudo-nickname and = members of a virtual RBridge group,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>2) While = in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry pseudo-nickname and = the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>> = 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1, <br>> RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a = TRILL hello frame on this link towards CE1,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> = this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> of = AF will not be applicable in this scenario</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>In = PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual <br>RBridge group. For a = virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and pseudo-nickname are = configured statically <br>by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are = not requisite in PN draft. Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft, = <br>i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using = pseudo-LSP to carry information of this RBridge group, <br>is also = applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). = <br><br>Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid = the backward compatibility issue.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>> = 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out of = this network, <br>> and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. = But in the CMT draft the links are <br>> all LAGs, and hence the = traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of <br>> = the RB1 and not to all of them.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Altho= ugh the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly based on = Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname <br>and employing pseudo-LSP = to carry RB Group info is also applicable in other scenario, such as = LAGs and multi-homing. <br>Whether using one member RB or all member RBs = to forward traffic for an end system, it depends on in which scenario = the <br>pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement = the pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""</span><o:p></o:p></p= ><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"28%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:28.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>jana@force10ne= tworks.com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 00:09</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"71%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:71.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"3%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"96%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:96.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"</span><= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Hi Zhai,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Few points:</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat = their links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL = hello frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by any = of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be = applicable in this scenario</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>2)  In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic = into and out of this network, and this is because it is regular Ethernet = link. But in the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence the traffic = (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 and not to = all of them.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>So I think the problem space that these two drafts are discussing = are different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be applicable to the = LAG active-active load balancing scenarios described in the CMT = draft.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Thanks</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Jana</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br><br></span><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On = Behalf Of </b></span><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Sent:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Tuesday, = March 27, 2012 4:49 PM<b><br>To:</b> Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)<b><br>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge@post= el.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:= </span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi = Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>In = your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>backward compatibility</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> in CMT. So = CMT can not work until all the RBridges support = affinitive-TLV.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Howev= er, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN draft = employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of a = virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> for the scenario described in your CMT</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = draft.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""</span> = <o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 = width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"45%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:45.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 18:12</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"54%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:54.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"8%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:8.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"91%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:91.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><</span><a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Donald Eastlake" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>, </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br><br>Hi Hu</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility  and your = assessment of RPF failure when older RBridges present is = incorrect.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the = scenario described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, = most Data Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to = the TRILL edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because = of the LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology = in the draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment = scenario.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Thanks</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>From= :</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On = Behalf Of </b></span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Sent:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Monday, = March 26, 2012 9:41 PM<b><br>To:</b> Donald Eastlake<b><br>Cc:</b> = </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge@post= el.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:= </span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>H= i,all</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>We = have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if = all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the = CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual = RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check = failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not = an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a optional = solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder whether = the CMT will does work actually because of the back compatibility = issue.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>There= is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times = New Roman","serif"'>.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Thank= s</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"43%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:43.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 06:38</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"56%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:56.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"11%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:11.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"88%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:88.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span = lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>[rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br><br>During the = TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the<br>room to = make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a<br>call on = the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish = to<br>respond, please do so by April = 10th.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>Donald E. Eastlake = 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA = 01757 USA<u><span style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u></span><a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</span></a><sp= an = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>______________________= _________________________<br>rbridge mailing list<u><span = style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u></span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel.org</span></a><= u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://mailman.postel.org/mail= man/listinfo/rbridge</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>_________= ______________________________________<br>rbridge mailing = list</span><u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@poste= l.org</span></a><u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://mailma= n.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</span></a><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>------------------= -------------------------------------- <br>ZTE Information Security = Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the = sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. = Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and are not = permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others. = <br>This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. <br>This message has been scanned for viruses = and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. = <br> <br>-------------------------------------------------------- = <br>ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this = mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail = communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to = maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. <br>This email and any files transmitted with = it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or = entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in = error please notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed = in this message are those of the individual sender. <br>This message has = been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. = </span><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>------------------------------= --------------------------</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>ZTE Information Security = Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the = sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. = Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and are not = permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to = others.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This = email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended = solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. 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<mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1420984710==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1420984710== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0030933E482579CF_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0030933E482579CF_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiAgTm9ybWFsbHkgUE4tTFNQICBpcyBhbm5vdW5jZWQgYnkgdGhlIERSQiwgc2luY2UgUkJSaWRn ZXMgY2Fubm90IHNlZSBMQU4gDQpoZWxsb3MgaG93IGRvZXMgdGhlIERSQiBnZXQgZWxlY3RlZCA/ DQoNCkkgdGhpbmssIERSQiBjYW4gYmUgY29uZmlndXJlZCBieSBhZGltaW5zdHJhdG9yIGluIExB RyBzY2VuYXJpby4gQW5kICANCmFub3RoZXIgbWVtYmVyICBpcyB1c2VkIHRvIGRldGVjdCB0aGUg 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Return-Path: <rbridge-bounces@postel.org> X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC4221F896E for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 02:36:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.447 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.399, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j3H3ypikyJ-G for <ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 02:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu 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<OF950E12BE.9EA90DCD-ON482579CF.002F29AD-482579CF.0030934C@zte.com.cn> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: Ac0Mv2Ru5XSpVfeESfuOZsgxaw8LTwAABUxA References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA06F7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <OF950E12BE.9EA90DCD-ON482579CF.002F29AD-482579CF.0030934C@zte.com.cn> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> To: <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 09:03:14.0466 (UTC) FILETIME=[9BBC9020:01CD0CC1] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, rbridge@postel.org, Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com>, rbridge-bounces@postel.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1647927282==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1647927282== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CC1.9B7840A5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CC1.9B7840A5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The static configuration required is only the virtual RB nickname. =20 We discussed earlier in your proposal, to overcome RPF issues we need to = either =20 1. Have tree rooted on each edge RBridge OR 2. Tunnel #1 does not scale #2 a non standard behavior.=20 =20 In the CMT if the number of tree are less we can either make a link = passive or optionally use tunneling.=20 =20 Lets assume we have 200 such virtual RBridges with dual homing in each = virtual RBRidge (i.e two RBridges in the block). In the CMT we just need = two trees to perform active-active forwarding. =20 In your case either we need 400 trees (i.e. 2*200) or dataplane upgrade = to do tunneling. Both of them in my mind is not going to help. =20 Additionally Affinity TLV enable so many different other applications = beyond active-active forwarding, =20 If you are still in Paris maybe we can meetup and go over some of the = issues. =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:47 AM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 > Normally PN-LSP is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot see = LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ?=20 I think, DRB can be configured by adiminstrator in LAG scenario. And = another member is used to detect the failure of this "DRB". If finding = DRB failed, the detecting member RB becomes DRB and annouce new = PN-LSPs.=20 I think, static configurations are required in LAG scenario both in your = CMT draft and my PN draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>=20 2012-03-28 16:33=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <jana@force10networks.com>, = <rbridge@postel.org>, <rbridge-bounces@postel.org>=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =09 You quoted =A1=B0No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. = Only one Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The = pseudo-nickname and all the members of this group will be carried in = this LSP.=A1=B1=20 =20 Normally PN-LSP is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot see LAN = hellos how does the DRB get elected ?=20 =20 =20 =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:15 AM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft=20 =20 See in-line, pls.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com = <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> >=20 2012-03-28 15:23=20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> >, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <jana@force10networks.com = <mailto:jana@force10networks.com> >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >, = <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >, = <rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> >, = <rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =09 See in-line=20 =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> = [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> ]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> ; rbridge@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> ; rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 =20 Hi Jana=A3=AC=20 In PN draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to = form a DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had = considered using PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would = not be as many trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node = as root is only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in = PN draft, which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree.=20 In the later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a virtual = RBridge Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any formed = DTree. If this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward (or = tunnel) the received native traffic to another member RBridge that = directly attaches to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later = RBridge ingresses the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF = check on a remote RBridge.=20 [Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other. =20 -------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 I don't think Hellos are necessary for PN draft. Hellos are used to find = member Rbridges and nogotiate psuedu-nickname in a virtual Rbridge = group. In LAG scenario, pseudo-nickname and members for a virtual = RBridge group should be configured statically by a network = administrator. Based on static configuration, each member Rbdiges in = this group will know this nickname and all other paterners, therefore = Hellos are not required.=20 --------=20 Hence each one of them form a separate PN.=20 -------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this LSP.=20 ----------=20 Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel traffic. It does not = matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid this. Tunneling Traffic = is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and this cannot be = considered as the standard solution.=20 ------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 If the number trees is less than the mumber of members in a RB group, = and all the member s are active, tunneling traffic can not be avoided in = your CMT and my PN draft.=20 --------=20 1. Use of PN as the root is non scalable=20 ------ [by Zhai Hongjun]=20 PN draft dosen't require PN node as root for forming DTrees. PN node as = root is only an optional approach. So the scalabity for this point does = not exist.=20 -------=20 2. Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane behavior=20 --------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 see the above answer.=20 --------=20 Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft can = not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges.=20 ------- [by Zhai Hongjun]=20 I don't think so.=20 --------=20 I have no problem with your draft to be discussed as a potential way for = LAN. But it is not the solution for multi-homed active-active edge.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com = <mailto:jana@force10networks.com> >=20 2012-03-28 14:27=20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> " = <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >, = "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> " = <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >, = "rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> " <rbridge@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> " <rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> >, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" = <tsenevir@cisco.com <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 I think the other point in the pN draft is=20 The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with the = PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.=20 A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, but since = this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt that the = requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be possible.=20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 The main difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:=20 1) In PN draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry = pseudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge group,=20 2) While in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry = pseudo-nickname and the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.=20 > 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1,=20 > RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello frame on this = link towards CE1,=20 > this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept=20 > of AF will not be applicable in this scenario=20 In PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual=20 RBridge group. For a virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and = pseudo-nickname are configured statically=20 by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are not requisite in PN draft. = Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft,=20 i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using pseudo-LSP = to carry information of this RBridge group,=20 is also applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). = Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid the = backward compatibility issue.=20 > 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network,=20 > and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft = the links are=20 > all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent = to only one of=20 > the RB1 and not to all of them.=20 Although the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly = based on Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname=20 and employing pseudo-LSP to carry RB Group info is also applicable in = other scenario, such as LAGs and multi-homing.=20 Whether using one member RB or all member RBs to forward traffic for an = end system, it depends on in which scenario the=20 pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement the = pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=20 Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10networks.com = <mailto:jana@force10networks.com> >=20 2012-03-28 00:09=20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> " = <zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn> >, "Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> = >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >, = "rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> " <rbridge@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> " <rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> >, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> " <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 Few points:=20 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello = frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by any of the = other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be = applicable in this scenario=20 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network, and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in = the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. = broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 and not to all of = them.=20 So I think the problem space that these two drafts are discussing are = different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be applicable to the LAG = active-active load balancing scenarios described in the CMT draft.=20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ] = On Behalf Of zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:49 PM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>=20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi Tissa=20 In your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for backward compatibility in = CMT. So CMT can not work until all the RBridges support affinitive-TLV.=20 However, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN = draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of = a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work for the scenario described in your CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>=20 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=20 "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com = <mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com> >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 2012-03-27 18:12=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> >, "Donald = Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> , = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Hu=20 CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility and your assessment of = RPF failure when older RBridges present is incorrect.=20 Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment scenario.=20 Thanks=20 Tissa=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> ] = On Behalf Of hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn <mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>=20 Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM To: Donald Eastlake Cc: rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org>=20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi,all=20 We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only = if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, = the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the = virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC = check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve = is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a = optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder = whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back = compatibility issue.=20 There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.=20 Thanks=20 Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com> >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = <mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org> =20 2012-03-27 06:38=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> =20 =B3=AD=CB=CD =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to respond, please do so by April 10th. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com>=20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org>=20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>=20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org <mailto:rbridge@postel.org>=20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>=20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CC1.9B7840A5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dgb2312"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:SimSun; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Consolas; panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"\@SimSun"; panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} pre {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char"; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph {mso-style-priority:34; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:.5in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:SimSun;} span.HTMLPreformattedChar {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted"; font-family:Consolas;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:591477549; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:273612684 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 = 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>The static configuration required is only the virtual RB = nickname.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>We discussed earlier in your proposal, to overcome RPF issues we need = to either<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if = !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'>       = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Have tree rooted on each edge RBridge OR<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'>       = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Tunnel<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>#1 does not scale #2 a non standard behavior. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>In the CMT if the number of tree are less we can either make a link = passive or optionally use tunneling. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Lets assume we have 200 such virtual RBridges with dual homing in = each virtual RBRidge (i.e two RBridges in the block). In the CMT we just = need two trees to perform active-active = forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>In your case either we need 400 trees (i.e. 2*200) or dataplane = upgrade to do tunneling. Both of them in my mind is not going to = help.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Additionally Affinity TLV enable so many different other applications = beyond active-active forwarding,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>If you are still in Paris maybe we can meetup and go over some of the = issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn] = <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:47 AM<br><b>To:</b> Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)<br><b>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; = rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org<br><b>Subject:</b> = </span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=B4=F0=B8=B4</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>>  Normally PN-LSP  is announced by the DRB, since = RBRidges cannot see LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ?</span> = <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>I think, DRB can be configured by adiminstrator in LAG scenario. And =  another member  is used to detect the failure of this = "DRB". If finding DRB failed,  the detecting member RB = becomes DRB and annouce new PN-LSPs.</span> <br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>I think, static configurations are required in LAG scenario both in = your CMT draft and my PN draft.</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: <a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a><br>&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""<br><br></span= ><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"36%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:36.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <<a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com">tsenevir@cisco.com</a>></span></b><= span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 16:33</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"63%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:63.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><<a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a>></= span> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Donald = Eastlake" <<a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>>, <<a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <<a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com">jana@force10networks.com</a>>= , <<a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>>, = <<a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= ></span> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>You quoted =A1=B0No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate = PN. Only one Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The = pseudo-nickname and all the members of this group will be carried in = this LSP.=A1=B1</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Normally PN-LSP  is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot = see LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ?</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> </span> <br><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = <a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a> = [<a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a= >] <b><br>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:15 AM<b><br>To:</b> = Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<b><br>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; <a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>; = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org">rbridge@postel.org</a>; <a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org">rbridge-bounces@postel.org</a>= <b><br>Subject:</b> </span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=B4=F0=B8=B4</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>See = in-line, pls.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br><= br>Thanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""<br><br></span><o:p><= /o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 = width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"32%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:32.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 15:23</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"67%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:67.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"5%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:5.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"94%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:94.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><</span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>jana@force10ne= tworks.com</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Donald = Eastlake" <</span><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p = class=3DMsoNormal><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>See in-line</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:zhai.= hongjun@zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] = <b><br>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM<b><br>To:</b> = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan<b><br>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge@post= el.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)<b><br>Subject:</b> RE: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi = Jana</span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A3=AC</span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>In = PN draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to = form a DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had = considered using PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would = not be as many trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node = as root is only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in = PN draft, which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree. = <br><br>In the later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a = virtual RBridge Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any = formed DTree. If this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward = (or tunnel) the received native traffic to another member RBridge that = directly attaches to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later = RBridge ingresses the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF = check on a remote RBridge.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>[Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other.  </span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>-------[by Zhai Hongjun]</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>I don't think Hellos are necessary for PN draft. Hellos are used = to find member Rbridges and nogotiate psuedu-nickname in a virtual = Rbridge group.  In LAG scenario, pseudo-nickname and members for a = virtual RBridge group should be configured statically by a network = administrator. Based on static configuration,   each member Rbdiges = in this group will know this nickname and all other paterners, therefore =  Hellos are not required.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>--------</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Hence each one of them form a separate PN.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>-------[by Zhai Hongjun]</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this = LSP.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>----------</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel traffic. It does = not matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid this. Tunneling = Traffic is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and this cannot be = considered as the standard solution. <br>------[by Zhai = Hongjun]</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>If the number trees is less than the mumber of members in a RB = group, and all the member s are active, tunneling traffic can not be = avoided in your CMT and my PN draft.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>--------</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>1.       Use of PN as the root is non = scalable</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>------ [by Zhai Hongjun]</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>PN draft dosen't require PN node as root for forming DTrees. PN = node as root is only an optional approach.  So the scalabity for = this point does not exist.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>-------</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>2.       Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane = behavior</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>--------[by Zhai Hongjun]</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>see the above answer.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>--------</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft = can not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>------- [by Zhai Hongjun]</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>I don't think so.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>--------</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>I have no problem with your draft to be discussed as a potential = way for LAN. But it is not the solution for multi-homed active-active = edge.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""</span><o:p></o:p></p= ><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"25%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:25.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>jana@force10ne= tworks.com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 14:27</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"74%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:74.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"2%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:2.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"97%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:97.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"</span><= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Hi Zhai,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>I think the other point in the pN draft is</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with = the PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, but = since this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt that = the requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be = possible.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>Thanks</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'= ><br>Jana</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>The main = difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>1) In PN = draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry pseudo-nickname and = members of a virtual RBridge group,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>2) While = in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry pseudo-nickname and = the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>> = 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1, <br>> RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a = TRILL hello frame on this link towards CE1,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> = this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> of = AF will not be applicable in this scenario</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>In = PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual <br>RBridge group. For a = virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and pseudo-nickname are = configured statically <br>by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are = not requisite in PN draft. Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft, = <br>i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using = pseudo-LSP to carry information of this RBridge group, <br>is also = applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). = <br><br>Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid = the backward compatibility issue.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>&= gt; 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and = out of this network, <br>> and this is because it is regular Ethernet = link. But in the CMT draft the links are <br>> all LAGs, and hence = the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of = <br>> the RB1 and not to all of them.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Altho= ugh the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly based on = Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname <br>and employing pseudo-LSP = to carry RB Group info is also applicable in other scenario, such as = LAGs and multi-homing. <br>Whether using one member RB or all member RBs = to forward traffic for an end system, it depends on in which scenario = the <br>pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement = the pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""</span> = <o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 = width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"28%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:28.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:jana@force10networks.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>jana@force10ne= tworks.com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-28 = 00:09</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"71%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:71.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"3%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"96%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:96.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"</span><= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>" = <</span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br><br>Hi Zhai,</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Few points:</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. = treat their links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a = TRILL hello frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by = any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not = be applicable in this scenario</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>2)  In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all = traffic into and out of this network, and this is because it is regular = Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence = the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 = and not to all of them.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>So I think the problem space that these two drafts are = discussing are different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be = applicable to the LAG active-active load balancing scenarios described = in the CMT draft.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Thanks</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Jana</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>From= :</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On = Behalf Of </b></span><a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Sent:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Tuesday, = March 27, 2012 4:49 PM<b><br>To:</b> Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)<b><br>Cc:</b> Donald Eastlake; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge@post= el.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:= </span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>H= i Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>In = your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>backward compatibility</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> in CMT. So = CMT can not work until all the RBridges support = affinitive-TLV.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Howev= er, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN draft = employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of a = virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'> for the scenario described in your CMT</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = draft.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>T= hanks,<br>Zhai = Hongjun<br>""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""<br>Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation<br>No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012<br><br>Zhai Hongjun<br><br>Tel: = +86-25-52877345<br>Email: </span><a = href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" = style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"45%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:45.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <</span></b><a = href=3D"mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>tsenevir@cisco= .com</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 18:12</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"54%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:54.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"8%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:8.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"91%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:91.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><</span><a = href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>>, = "Donald Eastlake" <</span><a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span><sp= an style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>, </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br><br><br>Hi Hu</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility  and your = assessment of RPF failure when older RBridges present is = incorrect.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the = scenario described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, = most Data Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to = the TRILL edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because = of the LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology = in the draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment = scenario.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br><br>Thanks</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><br>Tissa</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>From= :</span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On = Behalf Of </b></span><a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Sent:</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Monday, = March 26, 2012 9:41 PM<b><br>To:</b> Donald Eastlake<b><br>Cc:</b> = </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge@post= el.org</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org</span></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:= </span></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>H= i,all</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>We = have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if = all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the = CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual = RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check = failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not = an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a optional = solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder whether = the CMT will does work actually because of the back compatibility = issue.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>There= is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times = New Roman","serif"'>.</span><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Thank= s</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"43%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:43.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donald = Eastlake <</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.c= om</span></b></a><b><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>></span></b= ><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = <br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =  </span><a href=3D"mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012-03-27 = 06:38</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"56%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:56.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"11%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:11.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><t= d width=3D"88%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:88.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel= .org</span></a><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop = style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=B3=AD=CB=CD</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span = lang=3DZH-CN = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'>=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>[rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>  = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> = <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable = border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td = width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt = .75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt = .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br><br>During the = TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the<br>room to = make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a<br>call on = the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish = to<br>respond, please do so by April = 10th.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>Donald E. Eastlake = 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA = 01757 USA<u><span style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u></span><a = href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d3e3e3@gmail.com</span></a><sp= an = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>______________________= _________________________<br>rbridge mailing list<u><span = style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u></span><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@postel.org</span></a><= u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://mailman.postel.org/mail= man/listinfo/rbridge</span></a><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>_________= ______________________________________<br>rbridge mailing = list</span><u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>rbridge@poste= l.org</span></a><u><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br></span></u><a = href=3D"http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://mailma= n.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge</span></a><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>------------------= -------------------------------------- <br>ZTE Information Security = Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the = sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. = Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and are not = permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others. = <br>This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. <br>This message has been scanned for viruses = and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. = <br><br>-------------------------------------------------------- <br>ZTE = Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is = solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is = confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy = and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to = others. <br>This email and any files transmitted with it are = confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity = to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error = please notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed in this = message are those of the individual sender. <br>This message has been = scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. = <br> <br>-------------------------------------------------------- = <br>ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this = mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail = communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to = maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. <br>This email and any files transmitted with = it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or = entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in = error please notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed = in this message are those of the individual sender. <br>This message has = been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. = </span><br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>------------------------------= --------------------------</span> <br><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>ZTE Information Security = Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the = sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. = Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and are not = permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to = others.</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This = email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended = solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. 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SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:22:49 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:22:46 -0700 Message-ID: <CD31C838133B34469D6E01406350E68C0EA39F2F@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfA= References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com><OFB0DE3615.39F65513-ON482579CE.003C2CB1-482579CE.003E7761@zte.com.cn><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com><CAFOuuo79GLE1QQ3MEn=Wx0z-eY8Vsnscy-bVw_8dmKSw8Efe_Q@mail.gmail.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" <rwatve@cisco.com> To: "Mingui Zhang" <zhangmingui@huawei.com>, "Radia Perlman" <radiaperlman@gmail.com>, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 10:22:49.0116 (UTC) FILETIME=[B9A655C0:01CD0CCC] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: rwatve@cisco.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." <rbridge.postel.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/rbridge> List-Post: <mailto:rbridge@postel.org> List-Help: <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge>, <mailto:rbridge-request@postel.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0955314640==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0955314640== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CCC.B96D40B1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CCC.B96D40B1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mingui, 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES. CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity = tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv. Also, consider adding following to the comparison table Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity) PN: 3 CMT: 1 MTRA: multiple Thanks Rohit -----Original Message----- From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Radia, It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are = three candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions. 1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able. PN: YES. CMT: NO. MTRA: YES. 2. Use only existing silicons.=20 PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop. CMT: YES. MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it = is a "YES". 3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES.=20 The following table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also = attached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our = follow-up.=20 +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= |Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast = Converge| +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |PN |YES |NO |NO |NO |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |CMT |NO |YES |YES |YES |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |MTRA |YES |YES(will) |YES |YES |YES = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= Thanks, Mingui =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52 =B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft It is my understanding that a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are = active/active RBs on any link =20 Of course, no solution is ideal. It might have been nice to write up = all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's still worth doing. =20 So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link: =20 First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, = unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode nickname when encapsulating unicast. =20 Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the = pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without = any problems. =20 However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees, here were some of the proposed solutions. So, let's say that R1 and = R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate = a multidestination frame: =20 1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet = (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus. =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: more hops, might be difficult in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be = difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet. =20 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in = this case =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the = pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast, or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to = encapsulate a multidestination frame from S). =20 ------ There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work. =20 Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages = I mentioned above, but I can live with it. =20 Radia=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CCC.B96D40B1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dgb2312"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 6.5.7655.10"> <TITLE>RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi = Mingui,

5. Fast = convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the = two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The = new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A = overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: = YES.

CMT does not need reconfiguration. If = one Rbridge = advertizing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at = the other Egress Rbridge = ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding following to the comparison = table

Number of New TLVs (and resulting = complexity)

PN: = 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.= org] On Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi = Radia,

It is a good = idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three = candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions.

1. Whether the = solution is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: = YES.

CMT: = NO.

MTRA: = YES.

2. Use only = existing silicons.

PN: NO. New = silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a = "YES".

3. Multi-cast = traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: = NO.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = YES.

4. Multi-cast = traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: = NO.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = YES.

5. Fast = convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the = two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The = new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A = overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES. =

The following = table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just = in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up. =

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB = Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|PN      = |YES         = |NO         = |NO        = |NO          = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|CMT     = |NO          = |YES        = |YES       = |YES         = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|MTRA    = |YES         |YES(will)  = |YES       = |YES         = |YES          = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui




=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: = rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft









It is my = understanding that

a) CMT does = require changing all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT = requires there be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs = on any link

 

Of course, no = solution is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the = proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth = doing.

 

So from = memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link:

 

First note: = regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast = works, and they can use the pseudonode

nickname when = encapsulating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's = port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode = nickname for that link when encapsulating

multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check = will work without any problems.

 

However, if = Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees,

here were some = of the proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to = the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the = link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a = multidestination frame:

 

1) R3 could = tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with = pseudonode nickname) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't = affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible.  Con: more hops, might be difficult

in some = implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for = R2 to accept a tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could = use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this = case

 

Pro: Doesn't = affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible.  Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will = have

frequent = learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode = nickname (whenever S sends unicast,

or multicast = through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a = multidestination frame from S).

 

------

There might = have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work.

 

Personally, I = don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned = above, but I can live with it.

 

Radia =





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http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0774385375==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 04:20:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDE521E80CB for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:20:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.056 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.056 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.262, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JDj5HrFjpnz for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by 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ZXkgd291bmQgdXAgbm90IHRvIHdvcmsuDQoNCg0KDQpQZXJzb25hbGx5LCBJIGRvbid0IGxvdmUg dGhlIENNVCB0aGluZyBiZWNhdXNlIG9mIHRoZSB0d28gZGlzYWR2YW50YWdlcyBJIG1lbnRpb25l ZCBhYm92ZSwgYnV0IEkgY2FuIGxpdmUgd2l0aCBpdC4NCg0KDQoNClJhZGlhDQoNCg0KDQo= --_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD4711441353EXCHCLUSTER11_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tril= l-cmt-00 to WG draft= --_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD4711441389EXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============0851667632== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0851667632==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 15:12:05 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A5B21E80E9 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.321, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QTUylAnQ5meD for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14BA21E80BB for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SM1LfW006327; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e8.ny.us.ibm.com (e8.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.138]) by 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Violators will be prosecuted; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:00:47 -0400 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FE438C8052 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (d03av06.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.245]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2SM0jjJ208990 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:00:45 -0400 Received: from d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2SM18r3005242 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:01:08 -0600 Received: from d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.18]) by d03av06.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2SM18s6005237 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:01:08 -0600 To: rbridge@postel.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 71D13FAE:515DCA1B-872579CF:0065A890; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: From: Santosh Rajagopalan Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:00:55 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM127/03/M/IBM(Release 8.5.1FP2|March 17, 2010) at 03/28/2012 16:00:43, Serialize complete at 03/28/2012 16:00:43 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12032822-9360-0000-0000-000004F38917 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com Subject: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0976922719==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0976922719== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0079023D882579CF_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0079023D882579CF_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" This is a clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology constraints in the proposal: 1) It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy gets sent to each of CE1..CEn). Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" tree labels and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the edge of the trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a loop. In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict with RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be isolated here. 2) Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 ("The Spanning Tree Solution") to break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill cloud on that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and "The Spanning Tree Solution" will not work here. 3) In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in the draft. Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tree that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations in the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, it will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through another CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above). This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for) At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network. 4) Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center. Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above. Thoughts? -- Sunny Rajagopalan --=_alternative 0079023D882579CF_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" This is a clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology constraints in the proposal:

1) It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy gets sent to each of CE1..CEn).

Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" tree labels and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the edge of the trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a loop.

In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict with  RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be isolated here.

2) Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 ("The Spanning Tree Solution") to  break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill cloud on that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and "The Spanning Tree Solution" will not work here.

3) In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in the draft.

Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tree that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations in the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, it will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through another CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above).

This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for)

At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network.

4) Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center.

Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above.

Thoughts?

--
Sunny Rajagopalan

--=_alternative 0079023D882579CF_=-- --===============0976922719== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0976922719==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 15:27:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B5B521E8127 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:27:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.773 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.773 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.226, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IwZbuLSe9FeF for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FE121E80B3 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SM2HcV006399; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SM1hbx006342 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:01:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=40376; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332972113; x=1334181713; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to:cc; bh=DyQUZGyT5pwxXeV8nx7W3QSqAJNp8HelbwSe2RV5Zmc=; b=Lown+0vfyPm3m5PRmxARSRC1mwHIERymUo2/HZhuOO9YlEq3L2cGyvTt zOdXrlfl85XEKRz7KXRDU1IUAWYIAp3nI97ETPNk68xKNoqibJeH9os2X L3amG1wZmteLZiqjnZzgfEwzjYQszvlIcNyh/XNnDuUi/15/Qrtt8lKd9 E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgIFANWIc0+Q/khL/2dsb2JhbABFgkaCerMugQeCCQEBAQQSAQkBEAM1CAwMBAIBBgIRBAEBCwYQAQYBBAIBICUJCAIEARIIEweHZwGbWY0CCJIbigCFdjljBIhYmDqDFIFogwc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,665,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="133654091" Received: from ams-core-2.cisco.com ([144.254.72.75]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2012 22:01:42 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by ams-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2SM1eZ8016705; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:01:41 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:01:40 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:01:38 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA09A3@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE201@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAAAhXb4AAu9fg References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE201@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: "Mingui Zhang" , "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" , "Radia Perlman" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 22:01:40.0581 (UTC) FILETIME=[5AC02150:01CD0D2E] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1536680450==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1536680450== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0D2E.5A8760E5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0D2E.5A8760E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mingui =20 Assuming everyone who need active-active forwarding will and willing to = run multi-topology is like assuming all of us engineers are owning BMWs. =20 Joking aside what we need is a simple solution that works without = intricacies of multi-topology. So your argument that we should drop CMT = and just use multi-topology is very academic and will have some = detrimental effect on adaptation of TRILL. =20 I rest my arguments with this. =20 Thanks Tissa =20 From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:35 AM To: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 Hi Rohit=A3=AC =20 Thanks for offering the complementary dimension. Yes, I agree that = MT-TRILL requires new TLVs. But in case that MT is already supported by = TRILL, this is not a Cons of MTRA any more. =20 For the Fast Converge dimension. CMT does need to "perform distribution = tree assignment algorithm specified in section 5.1" to change the = assignment of affinities of aggregated members when there is a failure.=20 =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rohit Watve (rwatve) [rwatve@cisco.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 18:22 =B5=BD: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Mingui, 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES. CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity = tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv. Also, consider adding following to the comparison table Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity) PN: 3 CMT: 1 MTRA: multiple Thanks Rohit -----Original Message----- From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Radia, It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are = three candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions. 1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able. PN: YES. CMT: NO. MTRA: YES. 2. Use only existing silicons.=20 PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop. CMT: YES. MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it = is a "YES". 3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES.=20 The following table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also = attached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our = follow-up.=20 +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= |Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast = Converge| +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |PN |YES |NO |NO |NO |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |CMT |NO |YES |YES |YES |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |MTRA |YES |YES(will) |YES |YES |YES = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= Thanks, Mingui =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52 =B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft It is my understanding that a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are = active/active RBs on any link =20 Of course, no solution is ideal. It might have been nice to write up = all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's still worth doing. =20 So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link: =20 First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, = unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode nickname when encapsulating unicast. =20 Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the = pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without = any problems. =20 However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees, here were some of the proposed solutions. So, let's say that R1 and = R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate = a multidestination frame: =20 1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet = (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus. =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: more hops, might be difficult in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be = difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet. =20 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in = this case =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the = pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast, or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to = encapsulate a multidestination frame from S). =20 ------ There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work. =20 Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages = I mentioned above, but I can live with it. =20 Radia=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0D2E.5A8760E5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mingui

 

Assuming everyone who need active-active forwarding will and willing = to run multi-topology is like assuming all of us engineers are owning = BMWs.

 

Joking aside what we need is a simple solution that works without = intricacies of multi-topology. So your argument that we should drop CMT = and just use multi-topology is very academic and will have some = detrimental effect on adaptation of TRILL.

 

I rest my arguments with this.

 

Thanks

Tissa

 

From:= = Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = March 28, 2012 6:35 AM
To: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Radia = Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: = rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 

= Hi Rohit=A3=AC=

=  

= Thanks for offering the complementary dimension. Yes, I agree that = MT-TRILL requires new TLVs. But in case that MT is already supported by = TRILL, this is not a Cons of MTRA any = more.

=  

= For the Fast Converge dimension. CMT does need to "perform = distribution tree assignment algorithm specified in section 5.1" to = change the assignment of affinities of aggregated members when there is = a failure. 

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Rohit Watve (rwatve) [rwatve@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 28=C8=D5= 18:22
=B5=BD= := Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on = failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main = purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether = the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a = failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution = tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall = re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need = reconfiguration. If = one = Rbridge = advertizing affinity tlv goes down, = the = tree can be = rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding = following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (and = resulting complexity)

PN: = 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original = Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org= [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of = Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia = Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to list the = Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions for = the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for = RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following = dimensions.

1. Whether the solution is = incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing = silicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is = necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may = flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But after = multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a = "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic up from = RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic down to = RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on = failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main = purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether = the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a = failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution = tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall = re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lists all = above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). MTRA = is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old = Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|PN    &nb= sp; |YES         = |NO         = |NO        = |NO          = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|CMT     = |NO          = |YES        = |YES       = |YES         = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA    = |YES         |YES(will)  = |YES       = |YES         = |YES          |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui



=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org= [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft








It is my = understanding that

a) CMT does require changing = all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there be at = least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any = link

 

Of course, no solution is = ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed = solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth = doing.

 

So from memory...other = proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a = link:

 

First note: regardless of = whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can = use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsulating = unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to the = link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for = that link when encapsulating

multidestination frames for = ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port to the = link is not in any of the trees,

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the = shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the link is not in = any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination = frame:

 

1) R3 could tunnel it to one = of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nickname) = into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs = other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: more = hops, might be difficult

in some implementations for = R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a = tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its own = nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs = other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC = learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of = the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S = sends unicast,

or multicast through R1 or = R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame = from S).

 

------

There might have been some = other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't love the = CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I can = live with it.

 

Radia




------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0D2E.5A8760E5-- --===============1536680450== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1536680450==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 16:29:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D5721F85ED for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:29:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.324, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z1c-EsMWNecw for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEC321F85EE for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SNIF5a017983; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SNHVMK017935 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=15678; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332976660; x=1334186260; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to; bh=lTc0xsI65tbe53UekcHJD3fEK5yaTGS/IlAIicCmf+w=; b=VN04ryIaApzisLnptRQcLgBMbRJhsTMpmLW8CPgbkkPoNg0QeEZsp0du wJM0Njmduf9GrA4yFoMyp3Ffdg92NCD0T30eYy7aD/r2vbjca+koXsDZZ 28UhcVELgmVGGmQEAAuybKTDe/hPnijvabaTQDBj7i/SKj27vd3iF+k8D 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiEFAIubc0+rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABFgkatMgGIdYEHggkBAQEEEgEJEQNZAgEIDgMEAQELBhcBBgFFCQgBAQQBEggTB4dnAQubPJ8ckDZjBIhYjhqNNIFogwc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,665,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="38109269" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2012 23:17:31 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2SNHVSE011398; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 23:17:31 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:17:31 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:17:29 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0A14@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 Thread-Index: Ac0NMFjjCbvJq2I9TSWBdmMoqMoYYgAB6UsA References: From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: "Santosh Rajagopalan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 23:17:31.0211 (UTC) FILETIME=[F32329B0:01CD0D38] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1056122817==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1056122817== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0D38.F2F3D565" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0D38.F2F3D565 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The key application of this draft is for multi-homed devices that are servicing as end stations, e.g. servers on data centers. Please see Reference topology 2 and it was discussed in Taipei and stated in the draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active edge. =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:01 PM To: rbridge@postel.org Subject: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 =20 This is a clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology constraints in the proposal:=20 1) It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy gets sent to each of CE1..CEn).=20 Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" tree labels and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the edge of the trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a loop.=20 In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict with RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be isolated here.=20 2) Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 ("The Spanning Tree Solution ") to break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill cloud on that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and "The Spanning Tree Solution " will not work here.=20 3) In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in the draft. Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tree that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations in the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, it will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through another CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above).=20 This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for)=20 At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network.=20 4) Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center.=20 Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above.=20 Thoughts?=20 --=20 Sunny Rajagopalan=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0D38.F2F3D565 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The key application of this draft is for multi-homed devices that are = servicing as end stations, e.g. servers on data centers. Please see = Reference topology 2 and it was discussed in Taipei and stated in the = draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active = edge.

 

From:= = rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, = 2012 3:01 PM
To: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: = [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00

 

This is a = clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology = constraints in the proposal:

1)= It = looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are *not* = interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This is = because sending packets into the CE network strips off information = needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the = draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on = tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it = decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy = gets sent to each of CE1..CEn).

Let's assume = that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, instead of = the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is reasonable, because = it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the aggregation layer for = end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This means that a broadcast = packet would be replicated by the CE network to each of its switches, = including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their first duplicate. Each of = these switches looks at the attached rbridges as edge ports, so it sends = them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each label the ingressing packet = with their respective "affinity" tree labels and sends them = into the TRILL network, where it gets to the edge of the trill network, = and the cycle repeats. You now have a loop.

In addition, = if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the edge = rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will = result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not = encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict = with  RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be isolated = here.

2)= = Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 = ("The = Spanning Tree Solution") to =  break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, = because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In = figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has = an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill cloud on = that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked = B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of = interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and = "The = Spanning Tree Solution" will = not work here.

3)= In = addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be connected = to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links going down = are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG each to each = CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire CE network = has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in the draft. =

Let's say a = packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tree that = it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the = packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations = in the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch = which isn't connected to this rbridge, it will not get the packet (the = packet can't get to the CE switch through another CE switch, because of = the constraint in 1) above).

This means = that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE switch, and = b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for each = rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on the = number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks = this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one = of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will = get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream = rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of = reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for) =

At the very = least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to = "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, = and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other = rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its = CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that = rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network. =

4)= = Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two = trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need = to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan = to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a = fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center.

Note that = the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on = interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above. =

Thoughts?

-- =
Sunny = Rajagopalan

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0D38.F2F3D565-- --===============1056122817== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1056122817==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 22:16:04 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E4521E8042 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:16:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.172 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.172 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.379, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100, WEIRD_QUOTING=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vI-Yg8sSso5H for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F9A21E802D for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2T4ssXQ006717; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2T4sCQS006688; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.100] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 621292371461274; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:50:30 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.20] by [192.168.168.16] with StormMail ESMTP id 57866.7594739865; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:53:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id q2T4rush022198; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:53:56 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Subject: =?GB2312?B?tPC4tDogUmU6IFtyYnJpZGdlXSBDYWxsIGZvciBkcmFmdC10aXNzYS0=?= =?GB2312?B?dHJpbGwtY210LTAwIHRvIFdHIGRyYWZ0?= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: BC3B8928:B8FF124C-482579D0:001A795C; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:53:54 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.1FP4|July 25, 2010) at 2012-03-29 12:53:57, Serialize complete at 2012-03-29 12:53:57 X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn q2T4rush022198 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , Radia Perlman , Mingui Zhang , rbridge-bounces@postel.org, "Rohit Watve \(rwatve\)" X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Mar 29 04:07:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8ABC21F86BA for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:07:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.362 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.362 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.413, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5RuYhiOFzhrJ for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 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(MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHW44275; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:50:51 +0800 Received: from SZXEML421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.160) by szxeml213-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:50:43 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by szxeml421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.160]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:50:44 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:50:44 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIENhbGwgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXRpc3NhLXRyaWxsLWNt?= =?gb2312?Q?t-00_to_WG_draft?= In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.45] To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-index: 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Hi Jana, <= span style=3D"font-size: 15px;">

>In section 4.1, could you please explain how the= frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?&n= bsp;

Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intr= a-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by= RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.

Thanks,
Mingui
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi= Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not giv= e backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames = will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the extern= al node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be class= ified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also c= ause frequent MAC flip flops etc.

 

In section 4.1, could y= ou please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is = received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui= Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4= =F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer yo= ur question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft&= nbsp;http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-= topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on= the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5= =BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology c= ase I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that = all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like t= his will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since a= ll the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explai= n how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need re= configuration. If one Rbridge advertiz= ing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be root= ed at the other Egress Rbr= idge ID advertizing affinity tlv.=

Also, consider addin= g following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (= and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-= ----
From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to l= ist the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions= for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBri= dge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solutio= n is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing s= ilicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is= necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-= flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. Bu= t after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic = up from RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic = down to RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table li= sts all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). M= TRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

|Solution|Incre-Deploy= |Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|PN   &= nbsp;  |YES         |NO &= nbsp;       |NO     =    |NO          |NO&= nbsp;          |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT   =   |NO          |YES =        |YES     &nbs= p; |YES         |NO  &nbs= p;        |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|MTRA   = ; |YES         |YES(will)  |YE= S       |YES     &nb= sp;   |YES          = |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2= =BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft







It is my understanding= that

a) CMT does require ch= anging all the RBs in the campus<= /p>

b) CMT requires there = be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link=

 

Of course, no solution= is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solut= ions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other= proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link= :

 

First note: regardless= of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they ca= n use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsul= ating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to = the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for th= at link when encapsulating

multidestination frame= s for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port = to the link is not in any of the trees,<= /span>

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared= link is in at least one tree, and R3's<= /span>

port to the link is no= t in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame= :

 

1) R3 could tunnel it = to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nicknam= e) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: mor= e hops, might be difficult

in some implementation= s for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tun= neled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its ow= n nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC= learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning chan= ges of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever = S sends unicast,

or multicast through R= 1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination fra= me from S).

 

------

There might have been = some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't lo= ve the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I = can live with it.

 

Radia



--Boundary_(ID_XE9arNL2Y6gNQTRS/8n5jA)-- --===============0917873028== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0917873028==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 29 05:05:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7F121F880B for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 05:05:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.317, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wx9XfTOqLYzw for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A7921F88BD for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TBh9AW008870; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TBgcFC008794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:42:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=10467; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1333021367; x=1334230967; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:from:to; bh=ycmm9KP2Zag1Yoa0T4PXuhIziGchagLT2mQhkVJ/OuA=; b=fhoTBG9BDbZghHttnbY3pg1m5C6Nsx7ckyaxdWVT1SAwYiFqWebuuxOa I780vVcx8P3Z9i8Y76CkOoHLm05ssPu0Q/6nOBh7vz3qkah6Zmkm/RbRM sn91eeyfn3AUtaHLHzS8g3rwCLzTEfoj4ynBwQpHM+DXAj5z/+IRWDK1t c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAEZKdE+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABEgka2SYEHggsBBBIBCREDPh0BKgYYB1cBBBsah2cBmlGBJ58hjXuCQWMEiFibToFogwc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,667,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="38191462" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Mar 2012 11:42:37 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2TBgbYJ017343 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:42:37 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:42:37 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:42:36 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0B13@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: scope of draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 Thread-Index: Ac0NoQlb3vYCCwhIQcW5scLQYIs34w== From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2012 11:42:37.0497 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A290A90:01CD0DA1] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: [rbridge] scope of draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1502501925==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1502501925== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DA1.09FFAEC5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DA1.09FFAEC5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is considerable discussion going on in the mailing list, it appears may be the scope of the work in the draft need bit more explanation. Hence, thought to give a background and scope of the draft and exact problem that we are solving =20 1. This draft is only focusing on how to solve RPF issue on the multi-homed edge that use pt-pt links. 2. This draft does not discuss how multi-homed edge should be implemented, it is work of future drafts. =20 Below is an example on how this problem can occur. =20 Assume there is dual homed pt-pt Edge and edge is represented by virtual nickname Assume there are two multi-destination trees. Consider the following cases =20 case 1: Both trees are rooted on the same RBRidge RBx Case 2 Two trees are rooted on different RBridges RBx and RBy =20 Consider the topology below. In an scenario like below, virtual RB will always be connected to the two trees through RB1, hence RB2 is unable to associate Virtual RB to a tree.=20 =20 The CMT draft provide flexible framework to associate virtual RB to multi-destination trees through a parent of choice. Case 1: =20 Rbx | \ (10) (1)| \--------- | | =20 RB1 ----(1)---- RB2 +---------------+ | Virtual RB | =20 =20 Case 2: Rbx Rby (1) | | (1) +----------------------+ | TRILL Campus | +----------------------+ | \ (10) (1)| \--------- | | =20 RB1 ---(1)------ RB2 +---------------+ | Virtuak RB| =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DA1.09FFAEC5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is = considerable discussion going on in the mailing list, it appears may be = the scope of the work in the draft need bit more explanation. Hence, = thought to give a background and scope of the draft and exact problem = that we are solving

 

1.       = This draft is only focusing on how to solve RPF = issue on the multi-homed edge that use pt-pt links.

2.       = This draft does not discuss how multi-homed edge = should be implemented, it is work of future drafts.

 

Below is an = example on how this problem can occur.

 

Assume there = is dual homed pt-pt Edge and edge is represented by virtual = nickname

Assume there are two = multi-destination trees.

Consider the = following cases

 

case 1: =  Both trees are rooted on the same RBRidge RBx

Case 2  Two trees are rooted on different = RBridges RBx and RBy

 

Consider the = topology below. In an scenario like below, virtual RB will always be = connected to the two trees through RB1, hence RB2 is unable to associate = Virtual RB to a tree.

 

The CMT = draft provide flexible framework to associate virtual RB to = multi-destination trees through a parent of choice.


Case 1:

 

         &= nbsp;        Rbx

         &= nbsp;         = |     \  (10)

         &= nbsp;     (1)|       = \---------

         &= nbsp;         = |       =             = |     

         &= nbsp;       RB1 ----(1)---- = RB2

         &= nbsp;          = +---------------+

         &= nbsp;          = | Virtual RB |

 

 

Case = 2:

         &= nbsp;        = Rbx          = Rby

         &= nbsp;   (1)   = |            =   | (1)

         &= nbsp;    +----------------------+

         &= nbsp;    |   TRILL Campus |

         &= nbsp;    +----------------------+

         &= nbsp;         = |     \  (10)

         &= nbsp;     (1)|       = \---------

         &= nbsp;         = |       =             = |     

         &= nbsp;       RB1 ---(1)------ = RB2

         &= nbsp;          = +---------------+

         &= nbsp;          = | Virtuak RB|

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DA1.09FFAEC5-- --===============1502501925== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1502501925==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 29 08:13:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF6121E813F for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:13:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.15 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.15 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.099, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GDAGXBZiU1Li for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC26B21E809C for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TEoq9A009614; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 07:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [58.251.152.66]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TEo4Ld009517 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 07:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1N005GQIEJZ1@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:47:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1N00BVOIE7GX@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:47:07 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml213-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHW63672; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:47:07 +0800 Received: from SZXEML434-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.72.61.62) by szxeml213-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:46:48 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by szxeml434-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.72.61.62]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:46:56 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 14:46:55 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIENhbGwgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXRpc3NhLXRyaWxsLWNt?= =?gb2312?Q?t-00_to_WG_draft?= In-reply-to: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.46] To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81c X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Jana, 

For the intra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear i= n a specific topology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA R= Bridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA= can work very well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exist in the same camp= us. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be deployed incrementa= lly. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

For the inter-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk = with MT unaware RBridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do w= ant to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they wil= l accept the requirement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the possible MAC flip-f= lop. 

Thanks,
Mingui
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@post= el.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@= huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5=BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt= -00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

>In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame t= hat is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx? 

Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intr= a-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by= RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.

Thanks,
Mingui
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Na= rasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not giv= e backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames = will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the extern= al node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be class= ified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also c= ause frequent MAC flip flops etc.

 

In section 4.1, could y= ou please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is = received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui= Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4= =F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer yo= ur question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft&= nbsp;http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-= topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on= the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5= =BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology c= ase I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that = all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like t= his will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since a= ll the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explai= n how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need re= configuration. If one Rbridge advertiz= ing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be root= ed at the other Egress Rbr= idge ID advertizing affinity tlv.=

Also, consider addin= g following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (= and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-= ----
From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to l= ist the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions= for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBri= dge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solutio= n is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing s= ilicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is= necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-= flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. Bu= t after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic = up from RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic = down to RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table li= sts all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). M= TRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

|Solution|Incre-Deploy= |Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|PN   &= nbsp;  |YES         |NO &= nbsp;       |NO     =    |NO          |NO&= nbsp;          |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT   =   |NO          |YES =        |YES     &nbs= p; |YES         |NO  &nbs= p;        |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|MTRA   = ; |YES         |YES(will)  |YE= S       |YES     &nb= sp;   |YES          = |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2= =BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft







It is my understanding= that

a) CMT does require ch= anging all the RBs in the campus<= /p>

b) CMT requires there = be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link=

 

Of course, no solution= is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solut= ions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other= proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link= :

 

First note: regardless= of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they ca= n use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsul= ating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to = the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for th= at link when encapsulating

multidestination frame= s for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port = to the link is not in any of the trees,<= /span>

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared= link is in at least one tree, and R3's<= /span>

port to the link is no= t in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame= :

 

1) R3 could tunnel it = to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nicknam= e) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: mor= e hops, might be difficult

in some implementation= s for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tun= neled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its ow= n nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC= learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning chan= ges of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever = S sends unicast,

or multicast through R= 1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination fra= me from S).

 

------

There might have been = some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't lo= ve the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I = can live with it.

 

Radia



--Boundary_(ID_8h/eDwxHiqxBIp7gYXPTyQ)-- --===============1569715958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1569715958==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 29 10:16:13 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A9F21E8130 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.981 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.981 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.187, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uqFVFqyoWTTj for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5A721F8A0A for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TGkOTJ029320; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.force10networks.com (maa.force10networks.com [59.163.202.254]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TGjdne029229 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com ([10.16.127.21]) by exch7-maa-fe.force10networks.com ([10.16.126.10]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:15:35 +0530 From: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan To: Mingui Zhang Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:19:25 +0530 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaA= Message-ID: References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jana@force10networks.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Mingui= ,

 =

I am slightly confused. =

 

For the intra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBr= idges will not appear in a specific topology other than the based topology.= In other words, MTRA RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since th= ey all support MT, MTRA can work very well among them. In this scenario, MT= RA RBridges and old RBridges co-exist in the same campus. Therefore, this i= s a solid example that MTRA can be deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT do= es not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us= assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connec= ted to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are co= nverted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBridg= es which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes co= nnected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

For the inter-topology scenario, we a= ssume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware RBridges (This is a rigoro= us assumption.) If operators do want to realize such kind of connection, it= is reasonable to assume they will accept the requirement that they need to= configure their hashing function to remove the possible MAC flip-flop.&nbs= p;

 

I am not sure if that is practi= cal, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also what co= ntrols are available on them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

Thanks,

M= ingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<= /span>: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'> Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5=BD<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'>: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-c= mt-00 to WG draftHi Jana, 

&= nbsp;

>In section= 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 throu= gh RBv001 is received at RBx? 

<= div>

 

Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 talks a= bout the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so it is u= nreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan P= athangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
<= span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=B5=BD<= b>: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<= /span>

Hi Mingui,

&= nbsp;

Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in= section 4.2 multi destination frames will be ingressed with two different = bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing fu= nctions at the external node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure t= hat this can be classified as backward compatible since it is not a full so= lution and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops etc.

 

In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingress= ed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?

 

Than= ks

Jana

 

 

Fro= m: Mingui Zhang [m= ailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 201= 2 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: = =B4=F0=B8= =B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Jana,

 

I thin= k I should answer your question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please= refer to the draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draf= t-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you = are interested. As a starter draft on the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will= be happy to receive your comments.=

 

Thanks,

Mingui

<= div id=3DdivRpF449102>

<= b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana= @force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4= =EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5=BD: = Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsen= evir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [r= bridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 <= /span>

In the Multi-topology case I am not s= ure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that all the RBridg= es in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which partici= pate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like this will cause MAC flip flop on= the other RBridges and other issues since all the other RBridges do not un= derstand MT.

 <= /span>

Could you please explain how MT can w= ork in such scenarios?=


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org<= /a> [mailto= :rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang= ; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subj= ect: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience = is one of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension = discusses whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery whe= n there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is neces= sary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity tlv goes down,<= /span> the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding following to the comparison table<= /span>

Number of New TLVs (and resulting comple= xity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: mu= ltiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridg= e-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, Mar= ch 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
= Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are t= hree candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi= -Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the follow= ing dimensions.

= 1. Whether the solution is= incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA:= YES.

2. Use only existing silicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support &q= uot;tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently = NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES"= .

3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be= load-balanced.

= PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-b= alanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

<= p>MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that r= esilience is one of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This = dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure re= covery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomp= uted.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration = is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lists all above comparisons (A jpg ver= sion is also attached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserv= es our follow-up.

=

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Co= nverge|

+--------+------------+-----------= +----------+------------+-------------|<= o:p>

|P= N      |YES      &nb= sp;  |NO         |NO &nbs= p;      |NO      &nb= sp;   |NO         &n= bsp; |

+--------+------------+-----------+= ----------+------------+-------------|

|CM= T     |NO       &nbs= p;  |YES        |YES  &nb= sp;    |YES         = |NO           |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+-----= -------+-------------|=

|MTRA  &n= bsp; |YES         |YES(will)  = |YES       |YES     =     |YES        &nbs= p; |

+--------+------------+-----------+--= --------+------------+-------------+

Thank= s,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED<= span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black'> Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmai= l.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4: 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Sene= virathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to W= G draft





It is my understanding that=

a= ) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are ac= tive/active RBs on any link

 <= span style=3D'color:black'>

Of course, no solution is ideal.  It might h= ave been nice to write up all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons.= Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 <= /span>

So from memor= y...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active = on a link:

 

First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a t= ree, unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsulating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to the link= is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for that link = when encapsulating

=

multidestination frames= for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 <= /span>

However, if R= i's port to the link is not in any of the trees,

here were some of the proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R= 1 and R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's=

port to the link is not in any of the trees, and= R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame:

 

= 1) R3 could tunnel it to o= ne of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nickname) i= nto the campus.

=  

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link= ; backwards compatible.  Con: more hops, might be difficult

in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneli= ng, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could use it= s own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't a= ffect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  = Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the pseudon= ode nickname (whenever S sends unicast,<= o:p>

or= multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a = multidestination frame from S).

 

------

There= might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 <= /o:p>

Persona= lly, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentione= d above, but I can live with it.

 

Radia

 

= --_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD47114414C4EXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============0284209965== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0284209965==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 29 10:34:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D82921E80F0 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:34:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.317 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.317 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.281, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tPAHhwhu4QMr for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA43221F881F for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2THHKbe004784; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com (e32.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.150]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2THGQrl004670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e32.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:16:20 -0600 Received: from d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.107]) by d03dlp01.boulder.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754FAC40002 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:16:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by d03relay05.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id q2THFOHh090690 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:15:35 -0600 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id q2THFJks029858 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:15:19 -0600 Received: from d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm127.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.18]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id q2THFIE5029741 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:15:18 -0600 In-Reply-To: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0A14@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0A14@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> To: rbridge@postel.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: C560EF73:ECE32753-872579CF:0082C392; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1FP5 SHF29 November 12, 2010 Message-ID: From: Santosh Rajagopalan Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:15:29 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM127/03/M/IBM(Release 8.5.1FP2|March 17, 2010) at 03/29/2012 11:15:17, Serialize complete at 03/29/2012 11:15:17 X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 12032917-3270-0000-0000-0000052AB88C X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1083261060==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1083261060== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 005EE091882579D0_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 005EE091882579D0_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Tissa, Are you saying that the solution is only applicable to multi-homed hosts or that it's also applicable to edge switches? (the draft says the example is valid for "either End Stations and/or Legacy bridges")? If you're expanding the scope to include the latter, then the inability to interconnect them is a serious deficiency, as are the other points listed below. Anyway if the solution if being proposed only for a narrow case, it should be mentioned clearly in the draft - it's not enough for it to be "discussed in Taipei". The draft talks about a "typical deployment scenario" without stating that this is the only possible deployment scenario. Even if you narrow the scope considerably, you still need to address the issue of LAG link failure - (see point # 3) below. In this draft, a single link failure leads to us bringing down all southbound ports on the upstream device, which is quite drastic. This draft needs to address this issue for it to be workable. -- Sunny Rajagopalan From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, Date: 03/28/2012 04:17 PM Subject: RE: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 The key application of this draft is for multi-homed devices that are servicing as end stations, e.g. servers on data centers. Please see Reference topology 2 and it was discussed in Taipei and stated in the draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active edge. From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:01 PM To: rbridge@postel.org Subject: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 This is a clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology constraints in the proposal: 1) It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy gets sent to each of CE1..CEn). Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" tree labels and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the edge of the trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a loop. In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict with RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be isolated here. 2) Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 ("The Spanning Tree Solution") to break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill cloud on that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and "The Spanning Tree Solution" will not work here. 3) In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in the draft. Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tree that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations in the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, it will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through another CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above). This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for) At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network. 4) Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center. Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above. Thoughts? -- Sunny Rajagopalan --=_alternative 005EE091882579D0_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Tissa,
Are you saying that the solution is only applicable to multi-homed hosts or that it's also applicable to edge switches? (the draft says the example is valid for "either End Stations and/or Legacy bridges")? If you're expanding the scope to include the latter, then the inability to interconnect them  is a serious deficiency, as are the other points listed below. Anyway if the solution if being proposed only for a narrow case, it should be mentioned clearly in the draft - it's not enough for it to be "discussed in Taipei". The draft talks about a "typical deployment scenario" without stating that this is the only possible deployment scenario.

Even if you narrow the scope considerably, you still need to address the issue of LAG link failure - (see point # 3) below. In this draft, a single link failure leads to us bringing down all southbound ports on the upstream device, which is quite drastic. This draft needs to address this issue for it to be workable.

--
Sunny Rajagopalan



From:        "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>
To:        Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <rbridge@postel.org>
Date:        03/28/2012 04:17 PM
Subject:        RE: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00



The key application of this draft is for multi-homed devices that are servicing as end stations, e.g. servers on data centers. Please see Reference topology 2 and it was discussed in Taipei and stated in the draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active edge.
 
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:01 PM
To: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00
 
This is a clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology constraints in the proposal:

1) It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy gets sent to each of CE1..CEn).

Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" tree labels and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the edge of the trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a loop.

In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict with  RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be isolated here.

2) Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 ("The Spanning Tree Solution") to  break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill cloud on that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and "The Spanning Tree Solution" will not work here.

3) In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in the draft.

Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tree that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations in the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, it will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through another CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above).

This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for)

At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network.

4) Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center.

Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above.

Thoughts?

--
Sunny Rajagopalan
--=_alternative 005EE091882579D0_=-- --===============1083261060== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1083261060==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 29 11:09:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0059721F8800 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.311, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WTX1kyqmYpnx for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9864A21F87FE for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2THlF4w009867; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-3.cisco.com (mtv-iport-3.cisco.com [173.36.130.14]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2THkZVa009788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:46:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=22424; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1333043205; x=1334252805; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to; bh=zKcVcIbvqv4g+IwUWdLWS2Tpqc8FteYtx2jQ4xoGp3A=; b=fNr4d3vqF1UMJuYVeeMeb90VOFsg7KWvMGOgWX2/z246yrnZ10CTkkbV BxZwlq69dxg/yVXhOmnakZOp/OAOW5bkBxU6mngxceGNEaBUc6SOF71qV 8EPslHfLhObwRtIWSE89lbNDJz5vBRJUjkwJkpictTqUW44dy99dvrEyA A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlUFAKufdE+rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABDgk+tXAGIcIEHggkBAQEEEgEJEQNZAgEIDgMDAQEBCwYXAQYBRQkIAQEEARIIEweHZwELn1GXRpA8YwSIWI4ajTWBaIMHgTw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,669,1330905600"; d="scan'208,217";a="35664868" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Mar 2012 17:46:17 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2THkHwc013156; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:46:17 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:46:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:46:15 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0C3C@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] network topology constraints indraft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 Thread-Index: Ac0N0guxW096rsY7RTeE7AEwlCO1uQAAWAXQ References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0A14@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: "Santosh Rajagopalan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2012 17:46:17.0596 (UTC) FILETIME=[D7F3EBC0:01CD0DD3] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] network topology constraints indraft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0099136118==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0099136118== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DD3.D7C2E7FD" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DD3.D7C2E7FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunny =20 Please see my other email to the list on the scope of this draft. This draft is focusing only on RPF issue at the edge of the reference scenario. How all the other operations are handles such as devices not fully connected to all RBridges is separate work.=20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 10:15 AM To: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] network topology constraints indraft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 =20 Tissa,=20 Are you saying that the solution is only applicable to multi-homed hosts or that it's also applicable to edge switches? (the draft says the example is valid for "either End Stations and/or Legacy bridges")? If you're expanding the scope to include the latter, then the inability to interconnect them is a serious deficiency, as are the other points listed below. Anyway if the solution if being proposed only for a narrow case, it should be mentioned clearly in the draft - it's not enough for it to be "discussed in Taipei". The draft talks about a "typical deployment scenario" without stating that this is the only possible deployment scenario.=20 Even if you narrow the scope considerably, you still need to address the issue of LAG link failure - (see point # 3) below. In this draft, a single link failure leads to us bringing down all southbound ports on the upstream device, which is quite drastic. This draft needs to address this issue for it to be workable.=20 --=20 Sunny Rajagopalan=20 From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" =20 To: Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, =20 Date: 03/28/2012 04:17 PM=20 Subject: RE: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00=20 ________________________________ The key application of this draft is for multi-homed devices that are servicing as end stations, e.g. servers on data centers. Please see Reference topology 2 and it was discussed in Taipei and stated in the draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active edge.=20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org ] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:01 PM To: rbridge@postel.org Subject: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00=20 =20 This is a clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology constraints in the proposal:=20 1) It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy gets sent to each of CE1..CEn).=20 Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" tree labels and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the edge of the trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a loop.=20 In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict with RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be isolated here.=20 2) Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 ("The Spanning Tree Solution ") to break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill cloud on that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and "The Spanning Tree Solution " will not work here.=20 3) In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in the draft. Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tree that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations in the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, it will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through another CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above).=20 This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for)=20 At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network.=20 4) Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center.=20 Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above.=20 Thoughts?=20 --=20 Sunny Rajagopalan=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DD3.D7C2E7FD Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sunny

 

Please see my other email to the list on the scope of this draft. = This draft is focusing only on RPF issue at the edge of the reference = scenario. How all the other operations are handles such as devices not = fully connected to all RBridges is separate work. =

 

From:= = rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan
Sent: Thursday, March 29, = 2012 10:15 AM
To: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: Re: = [rbridge] network topology constraints = indraft-tissa-trill-cmt-00

 

Tissa,=
Are you = saying that the solution is only applicable to multi-homed hosts or that = it's also applicable to edge switches? (the draft says the example is = valid for "either End Stations and/or Legacy = bridges")? If = you're expanding the scope to include the latter, then the inability to = interconnect them  is a serious deficiency, as are the other points = listed below. Anyway if the solution if being proposed only for a narrow = case, it should be mentioned clearly in the draft - it's not enough for = it to be "discussed in Taipei". The draft talks about a = "typical deployment scenario" without stating that this is the = only possible deployment scenario.

Even if you = narrow the scope considerably, you still need to address the issue of = LAG link failure - (see point # 3) below. In this draft, a single link = failure leads to us bringing down all southbound ports on the upstream = device, which is quite drastic. This draft needs to address this issue = for it to be workable.

-- =
Sunny = Rajagopalan



= From:        "Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> =
= To:        Santosh = Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <rbridge@postel.org> =
= Date:        03/28/2012 = 04:17 PM
= Subject:        RE: [rbridge] = network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 =




The key application of this draft is for multi-homed devices that are = servicing as end stations, e.g. servers on data centers. Please see = Reference topology 2 and it was discussed in Taipei and stated in the = draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active = edge.
 
From:= = rbridge-bounces@postel.org= [mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, = 2012 3:01 PM
To: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:<= /b> [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00
 
This is a = clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology = constraints in the proposal:

1)= = It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are = *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This = is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information = needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the = draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on = tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it = decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy = gets sent to each of CE1..CEn).

Let's = assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, = instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is = reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the = aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This = means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to = each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their = first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges = as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each = label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" = tree labels and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the = edge of the trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a = loop.

In = addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the = edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will = result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not = encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict = with  RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be isolated = here.

2)= = Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 = ("The Spanning Tree = Solution") to =  break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, = because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In = figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has = an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill cloud on = that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked = B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of = interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and = "The Spanning Tree = Solution" will = not work here.

3)= = In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be = connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links = going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG = each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire = CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in = the draft.

Let's = say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tree = that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the = packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations = in the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch = which isn't connected to this rbridge, it will not get the packet (the = packet can't get to the CE switch through another CE switch, because of = the constraint in 1) above).

This = means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE = switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for = each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on = the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks = this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one = of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will = get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream = rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of = reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for) =

At the = very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to = "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, = and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other = rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its = CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that = rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network.

4)= = Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two = trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need = to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan = to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a = fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center.

Note = that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on = interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above. =

Thoughts?=

--=
Sunny = Rajagopalan

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DD3.D7C2E7FD-- --===============0099136118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0099136118==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 29 12:24:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE8621F87B3 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.13 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.13 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.079, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u6l-JawQEXs5 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498B221F87B4 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TIvPtf022129; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [58.251.152.66]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TIujaG022067 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1N009N3TYK3V@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:56:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1N0008DTYKNE@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:56:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml211-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHW72427; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:56:43 +0800 Received: from SZXEML416-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.155) by szxeml211-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.182) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:56:35 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by szxeml416-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.155]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:56:37 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:56:36 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIENhbGwgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXRpc3NhLXRyaWxsLWNt?= =?gb2312?Q?t-00_to_WG_draft?= In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.68] To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3A== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Jana,

Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end sys= tems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of = them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean = that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes connected to these vir= tual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

ZMG> Although physical reachability can be all to all, it does not = mean than the end systems will really communicate in an all to all manner. = It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you a= n example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured a= s the VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Computer Science while the access= ports of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the= Dept of Literature. End systems from the same department can talk with each other. But end systems from tw= o different departments will not talk with each other.

I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on them

ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a gro= up of RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need = enter the console window to input the command line to configure parameters = and start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used for hashing.

Thanks,
Mingui



=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi= Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.

 

For the intra-topology sce= nario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific topology other tha= n the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work ve= ry well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exi= st in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be = deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I ha= ve 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and al= l of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBr= idges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes= connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

For the inter-topology sce= nario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware RBridges (This = is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the r= equirement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the= possible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sure if that i= s practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also= what controls are available on them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.co= m]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5= =BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0= =B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tri= ll-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 

>In section 4.1, cou= ld you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001= is received at RBx? 

 

Two scenarios are given in= Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx = is not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not giv= e backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames = will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the extern= al node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be class= ified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also c= ause frequent MAC flip flops etc.=

 

In section 4.1, could y= ou please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is = received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer yo= ur question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft&= nbsp;http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-= topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on= the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5= =BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology c= ase I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that = all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like t= his will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since a= ll the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explai= n how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need re= configuration. If one Rbridge advertiz= ing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be root= ed at the other Egress Rbr= idge ID advertizing affinity tlv.=

Also, consider addin= g following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (= and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-= ----
From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to l= ist the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions= for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBri= dge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solutio= n is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing s= ilicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is= necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-= flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. Bu= t after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic = up from RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic = down to RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table li= sts all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). M= TRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

|Solution|Incre-Deploy= |Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|PN   &= nbsp;  |YES         |NO &= nbsp;       |NO     =    |NO          |NO&= nbsp;          |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT   =   |NO          |YES =        |YES     &nbs= p; |YES         |NO  &nbs= p;        |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|MTRA   = ; |YES         |YES(will)  |YE= S       |YES     &nb= sp;   |YES          = |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2= =BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [rad= iaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft






It is my understanding= that

a) CMT does require ch= anging all the RBs in the campus<= /p>

b) CMT requires there = be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link=

 

Of course, no solution= is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solut= ions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other= proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link= :

 

First note: regardless= of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they ca= n use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsul= ating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to = the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for th= at link when encapsulating

multidestination frame= s for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port = to the link is not in any of the trees,<= /span>

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared= link is in at least one tree, and R3's<= /span>

port to the link is no= t in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame= :

 

1) R3 could tunnel it = to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nicknam= e) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: mor= e hops, might be difficult

in some implementation= s for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tun= neled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its ow= n nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC= learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning chan= ges of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever = S sends unicast,

or multicast through R= 1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination fra= me from S).

 

------

There might have been = some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't lo= ve the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I = can live with it.

 

Radia

 

--Boundary_(ID_t1nhw0XObq3MY4F8X6xXWw)-- --===============1106212999== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1106212999==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 29 13:57:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D4021F84A6 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.78 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.78 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.230, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Myah6NLii+Xz for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0757921F84A5 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TKbwDB007641; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2TKbYT7007604 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1N0074YYMLMP@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 04:37:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1N00IWQYMLIT@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 04:37:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml213-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHW74530; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 04:37:32 +0800 Received: from SZXEML422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.161) by szxeml213-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 04:37:23 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by szxeml422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.161]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 04:37:31 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:37:30 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIG5ldHdvcmsgdG9wb2xvZ3kgY29uc3RyYWludHMg?= =?gb2312?Q?in=09draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00?= In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.68] To: Santosh Rajagopalan , "rbridge@postel.org" Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0A31@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 Thread-index: AQHNDTp5ySLxeto+ZUm+nl6F5ko6IZaA/oKAgAC6yvE= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0A14@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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AgcFAILMdE+rRDoH/2dsb2JhbABCglOCf6peAYhwgQeCCQEBAQQSAQkRA1kCAQYCEQMBAQELBhABBgEEAgFFCQgCBAESCBMHh2cBC59MjQIIijaPcTljBIhYjhqNNYFogwc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,669,1330905600"; d="scan'208,217";a="38272208" Received: from mtv-core-2.cisco.com ([171.68.58.7]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Mar 2012 20:57:57 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2TKvvFH000364; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:57:57 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:57 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:54 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0D5D@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0A31@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 Thread-Index: AQHNDTp5ySLxeto+ZUm+nl6F5ko6IZaA/oKAgAC6yvGAAAf1UA== References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0A14@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0A31@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: "Mingui Zhang" , "Santosh Rajagopalan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2012 20:57:57.0001 (UTC) FILETIME=[9E21DF90:01CD0DEE] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0263727747==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0263727747== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DEE.9DE756B5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DEE.9DE756B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When an RBrdige goes down, based on different scenarios today all of the = RBridges in the network recalculate the SPF. We are not optimizing = IS-IS protocol calculation methods and there can be many different way = to optimize such things, that is not the intention of a base draft. =20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:38 PM To: Santosh Rajagopalan; rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 =20 Hi Sunny,=20 =20 I agree with your judgement about the LAG link failure.=20 =20 I have another concern with 5.6.1. Edge RBridge RBk failure. I think = that CMT should have the chance to offer an incremental recalculation of = distributions trees under nodal failures. In other words, a nodal = failure should affect only one distribution tree while others should = remain unchanged. But paragraph 3 of this section makes me believe that = there is an overall recalculation.=20 =20 Thanks, Mingui =20 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Santosh Rajagopalan = [sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 1:15 =B5=BD: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 Tissa,=20 Are you saying that the solution is only applicable to multi-homed hosts = or that it's also applicable to edge switches? (the draft says the = example is valid for "either End Stations and/or Legacy bridges")? If = you're expanding the scope to include the latter, then the inability to = interconnect them is a serious deficiency, as are the other points = listed below. Anyway if the solution if being proposed only for a narrow = case, it should be mentioned clearly in the draft - it's not enough for = it to be "discussed in Taipei". The draft talks about a "typical = deployment scenario" without stating that this is the only possible = deployment scenario.=20 Even if you narrow the scope considerably, you still need to address the = issue of LAG link failure - (see point # 3) below. In this draft, a = single link failure leads to us bringing down all southbound ports on = the upstream device, which is quite drastic. This draft needs to address = this issue for it to be workable.=20 --=20 Sunny Rajagopalan=20 From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" =20 To: Santosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, = =20 Date: 03/28/2012 04:17 PM=20 Subject: RE: [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00=20 ________________________________ The key application of this draft is for multi-homed devices that are = servicing as end stations, e.g. servers on data centers. Please see = Reference topology 2 and it was discussed in Taipei and stated in the = draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active = edge.=20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org = ] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:01 PM To: rbridge@postel.org Subject: [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00=20 =20 This is a clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology = constraints in the proposal:=20 1) It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are = *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This = is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information = needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the = draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on = tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it decaps it and = send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy gets sent to each = of CE1..CEn).=20 Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, = instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is = reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the = aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This = means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to = each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their = first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges = as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each = label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" tree labels = and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the edge of the = trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a loop.=20 In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then = the edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which = will result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then = not encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would = conflict with RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be = isolated here.=20 2) Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 = ("The Spanning Tree Solution = ") to break the = connectivity between the CE switches won't work here, because this will = render certain switches unreachable on some trees. In figure 13 ("wiring = closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then = packets coming in from the trill cloud on that tree will need to get to = B2 through RB1, but since STP has blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This = just reiterates that no form of interconnect whatsoever between the CE = switches is permissible, and "The Spanning Tree Solution = " will not work = here.=20 3) In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be = connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links = going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG = each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire = CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in the draft. = Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a = tree that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by = decapsulating the packet and sending it to each of the attached CE = links, all the stations in the CE network will get the packet. So if = there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, it = will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through = another CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above).=20 This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE = switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for = each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on = the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks = this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem if one = of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch will = get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the upstream = rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of = reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity for)=20 At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to = "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, and a way = those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other rbridges. In = addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its CE-facing links = down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that rbridge to inject = packets into the TRILL network.=20 4) Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two = trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need = to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan = to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a = fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center.=20 Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on = interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above.=20 Thoughts?=20 --=20 Sunny Rajagopalan=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DEE.9DE756B5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When an RBrdige goes down, based on different scenarios today all of = the RBridges in the network recalculate the SPF.   We are not = optimizing IS-IS protocol calculation methods and there can be many = different way to optimize such things, that is not the intention of a = base draft.

 

 

From:= = rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:38 = PM
To: Santosh Rajagopalan; = rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] = network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00

 

= Hi Sunny,

=  

= I agree with your judgement about the LAG link = failure. 

=  

= I have another concern with 5.6.1. Edge RBridge RBk failure. = I think that CMT should have the chance to offer an incremental = recalculation of distributions trees under nodal failures. In other = words, a nodal failure should affect only one distribution tree while = others should remain unchanged. But paragraph 3 of this section makes me = believe that there is an overall = recalculation. 

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=  

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := rbridge-bounces@postel.org= [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED= Santosh Rajagopalan [sunny.rajagopalan@us.ibm.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 30=C8=D5= 1:15
=B5=BD= := rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := Re: [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00

T= issa,
A= re you saying that the solution is only applicable to multi-homed hosts = or that it's also applicable to edge switches? (the draft says the = example is valid for "either = End Stations and/or Legacy bridges&= quot;)? If you're expanding the scope to include the latter, then the = inability to interconnect them  is a serious deficiency, as are the = other points listed below. Anyway if the solution if being proposed only = for a narrow case, it should be mentioned clearly in the draft - it's = not enough for it to be "discussed in Taipei". The draft talks = about a "typical deployment scenario" without stating that = this is the only possible deployment scenario. =

E= ven if you narrow the scope considerably, you still need to address the = issue of LAG link failure - (see point # 3) below. In this draft, a = single link failure leads to us bringing down all southbound ports on = the upstream device, which is quite drastic. This draft needs to address = this issue for it to be workable. =

-= -
S= unny Rajagopalan



= From:        &q= uot;Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com> =
= To:        Sa= ntosh Rajagopalan/Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <rbridge@postel.org> =
= Date:        03= /28/2012 04:17 PM
= Subject:        RE= : [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00




The key application of this draft is for multi-homed devices that are = servicing as end stations, e.g. servers on data centers. Please see = Reference topology 2 and it was discussed in Taipei and stated in the = draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active = edge.
 
= From:= rbridge-bounces@postel.org= [mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org= ] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan
Sent: Wednesday, = March 28, 2012 3:01 PM
To: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:<= /b> [rbridge] network topology constraints in = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00
 
T= his is a clever draft, but I wanted to point out some network topology = constraints in the proposal:
<= br>1) = It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are = *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This = is because sending packets into the CE network strips off information = needed to prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the = draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet from the trill campus on = tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for that tree. So it = decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basically, a copy = gets sent to each of CE1..CEn).
<= br>Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected = switches, instead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is = reasonable, because it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the = aggregation layer for end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This = means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE network to = each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got their = first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridges = as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each = label the ingressing packet with their respective "affinity" = tree labels and sends them into the TRILL network, where it gets to the = edge of the trill network, and the cycle repeats. You now have a = loop.
<= br>In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, = then the edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, = which will result in one of them being elected the AF. The others will = then not encap or decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would = conflict with  RFC 6325. All in all, we need the CE switches to be = isolated here.
<= br>2) = Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 = ("The = Spanning Tree Solution&= quot;) to  break the connectivity between the CE switches won't = work here, because this will render certain switches unreachable on some = trees. In figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if = RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the trill = cloud on that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP has = blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of = interconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and = "The = Spanning Tree Solution&= quot; will not work here.
<= br>3) = In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be = connected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links = going down are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG = each to each CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire = CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-rbridge (RBv) in = the draft.
<= br>Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge = on a tree that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by = decapsulating the packet and sending it to each of the attached CE = links, all the stations in the CE network will get the packet. So if = there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, it = will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through = another CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above). =
<= br>This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each = CE switch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one = for each rbridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints = on the number of LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small = networks this may not be a problem, however, this may still be a problem = if one of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case, that CE switch = will get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentially, the = upstream rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way = of reaching the CE switch on the x trees it has an affinity = for)
<= br>At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to = "relinquish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, = and a way those trees to either be retired or be picked up by other = rbridges. In addition, the rbridge will need to bring all of its = CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that = rbridge to inject packets into the TRILL network. =
<= br>4) = Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two = trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need = to be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan = to incrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a = fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center. =
<= br>Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints = on interconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described = above.
<= br>Thoughts?
<= br>-- <= br>Sunny Rajagopalan =

------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0DEE.9DE756B5-- --===============0263727747== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0263727747==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Thu Mar 29 22:51:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E3F21F86D6 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:51:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.958 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.958 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.164, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 71AsXQ5I9Pgl for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E7E21F86D1 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U5QW51024749; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.force10networks.com (maa.force10networks.com [59.163.202.254]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U5Q60d024662 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 22:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com ([10.16.127.21]) by exch7-maa-fe.force10networks.com ([10.16.126.10]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:55:56 +0530 From: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan To: Mingui Zhang Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:59:47 +0530 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNg Message-ID: References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jana@force10networks.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Mingui= ,

 =

With MT approach, when two RBridges which = had stations talking to each other and one of them is converted to MT, then= the communication is broken. So it does not have backward computability. <= o:p>

 

Thanks

Jana

 = ;

 

<= div>

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huaw= ei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To: Jana= rdhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:= =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbr= idge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

&n= bsp;

Let us assume= that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to = it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted= to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBridges whic= h are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes connected= to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

ZMG> Although physical reachability can b= e all to all, it does not mean than the end systems will really communicate= in an all to all manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the= campus. Let me give you an example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to a= ll connection. The access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as the VLAN f= or end systems of the Dept of Computer Science while the access ports of RB= 2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Lit= erature. End systems from the same department can talk with each other. But= end systems from two different departments will not talk with each other.<= o:p>

 <= /o:p>

I am not sure if t= hat is practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and= also what controls are available on them

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected = to a group of RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. = He need enter the console window to input the command line to configure par= ameters and start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used for has= hing.

 <= /o:p>

Thanks,

Mingui

 

 

 

=B7= =A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Nara= simhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: = rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbri= dge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

= I am slightly confused.

 

For the in= tra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific to= pology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only ta= lks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work very = well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exist = in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be dep= loyed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.<= /span>

 

Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campu= s which have end systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reacha= ble. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-a= ctive, does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be a= ble to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I m= issing something here?=

 

For the int= er-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware = RBridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize s= uch kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the req= uirement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the p= ossible MAC flip-flop. <= /span>

 

I am not su= re if that is practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connec= ted and also what controls are available on them

 

T= hanks

Jana

 =

Thanks,

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'>Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-b= ounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Mingui Zha= ng [zhangmingui@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5=BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tril= l-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 =

>In section 4.1, could you please explain how the f= rame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?=  

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

Two scenarios are given in = Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx i= s not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any for= warding path to RBx.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'> 22:52
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: <= a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org" target=3D"_blank">rbridge@postel.org
= =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft= -tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,<= span style=3D'color:black'>

 

Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.= g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames will be ingressed with two diffe= rent bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashi= ng functions at the external node may or may not be acceptable . I am not s= ure that this can be classified as backward compatible since it is not a fu= ll solution and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops etc.

&nbs= p;

In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is = ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?

 =

Thanks

Jana

 =

 

<= b>From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Nar= asimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call = for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Jana= ,

 

I think I should answer your question= . I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-0= 0. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter dr= aft on the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comme= nts.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'> 19:14
=B5=BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui= Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
= =D6=F7= =CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa= -trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

&nbs= p;

In the Multi-topology case I am not sure what is meant by incre= mentally deployable. Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus do not un= derstand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodg= e, it looks like this will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and ot= her issues since all the other RBridges do not understand MT.

&nbs= p;

Could you please explain how MT can work in such scenarios?

<= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F= 497D'>
Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org= ] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, M= arch 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Sene= virathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call= for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergen= ce on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purp= oses of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solut= ion offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an = aggregated RBridge or link. <= /span>

PN: NO. The n= ew distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need r= econfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity tlv goes down, the<= span style=3D'color:black'> tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge= ID advertizing affinity tlv.=

Also, cons= ider adding following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity)

PN: 3=

CMT:= 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit<= /span>

-----Original= Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Ra= dia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge]= Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

<= span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black'>It is a good idea to list t= he Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions for = the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge A= ggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.=

C= MT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing silicons.

= PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else M= AC addresses may flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology i= s supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. = Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

=

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast con= vergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two mai= n purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the= solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure = of an aggregated RBridge or link. <= /o:p>

PN: NO.= The new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following = table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in c= ase.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+--------= ----+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy= |Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+------= -------|

|PN     = |YES         |NO   =       |NO       = ; |NO          |NO  =          |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------= ------|

|CMT     |NO&n= bsp;         |YES   =      |YES       |YES = ;        |NO    &nbs= p;      |<= /o:p>

+------= --+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA    |YES   &nbs= p;     |YES(will)  |YES    &nb= sp;  |YES         |YES &n= bsp;        |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+---------= ----+

Thanks,

Mingui

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [r= bridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft





<= /p>

It is my understandi= ng that

a) CMT does require changing all t= he RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there= be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link

 <= /o:p>

Of cour= se, no solution is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the= proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other proposals for allowing = R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link:

 

<= p>First note: regardless o= f whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can = use the pseudonode

=

nickname when encapsula= ting unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can = use the pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating

multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check w= ill work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port to the link is not in an= y of the trees,

= here were some of the prop= osed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared lin= k is in at least one tree, and R3's=

port t= o the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multid= estination frame:

<= p> 

1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inje= ct the packet (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus.

 =

Pro: Doesn't affect= any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: = more hops, might be difficult=

in some impl= ementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to ac= cept a tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseud= onode nickname in this case

 <= span style=3D'color:black'>

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones o= n the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC learning in distant RBs wi= ll have

frequent learning changes of the s= ource MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unic= ast,

or multicast through R1 or R2), or be= ing on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame from S).

 

-----= -

There might have been some other proposa= ls, but they wound up not to work.<= /o:p>

 <= /span>

Personally, I don't love the CMT thing bec= ause of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I can live with it.

 

Radi= a

 =

= = --_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD4711441520EXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============0755940541== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0755940541==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 00:09:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5393321F8707 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:09:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.117 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.117 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KBPiGd2I0oR7 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE0E21F8704 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U6m3wc006860; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 23:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [58.251.152.64]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U6lNxb006815 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2012 23:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1O00223QRKNE@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:45:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1O00B3PQRK2D@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:45:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHX19312; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:45:19 +0800 Received: from SZXEML425-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.72.61.33) by szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:45:12 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by szxeml425-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.72.61.33]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:45:15 +0800 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 06:45:14 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIENhbGwgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXRpc3NhLXRyaWxsLWNt?= =?gb2312?Q?t-00_to_WG_draft?= In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.45] To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNggAAT3tA= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Jana,

All RBridges in the campus are in the base topology. MT RBridges can w= ell communicate with non-MT RBridges using the base topology. 

I feel that you are arguing that MT-TRILL is not backward compati= ble. That is a incorrect judgement.

Thanks,
Mingui
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10n= etworks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 13:29
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

 

With MT approach, when = two RBridges which had stations talking to each other and one of them is co= nverted to MT, then the communication is broken. So it does not have backward computability.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui= Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4= =F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

Let us assume that I have = 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and all o= f them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBridges whic= h are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes connected= to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

ZMG> Although physical = reachability can be all to all, it does not mean than the end systems will = really communicate in an all to all manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you an example, RB1, = RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The access ports of RB1 and= RB3 are configured as the VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Computer Sci= ence while the access ports of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Lite= rature. End systems from the same department can talk with each other. But = end systems from two different departments will not talk with each other.

 

I am not sure if that is p= ractical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also wh= at controls are available on them

 

ZMG> Think about it. Wh= en an operator have a LAG connected to a group of RBridges, he has to decid= e which port to plug the cables in. He need enter the console window to input the command line to configure parameters and start the LAG= . He also need to configure the tuple used for hashing.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.

 

For the intra-topology sce= nario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific topology other tha= n the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work ve= ry well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exi= st in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be = deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I ha= ve 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and al= l of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBr= idges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes= connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

For the inter-topology sce= nario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware RBridges (This = is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the r= equirement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the= possible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sure if that i= s practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also= what controls are available on them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.co= m]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5= =BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0= =B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tri= ll-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 

>In section 4.1, cou= ld you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001= is received at RBx? 

 

Two scenarios are given in= Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx = is not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.<= /span>

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not giv= e backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames = will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the extern= al node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be class= ified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also c= ause frequent MAC flip flops etc.=

 

In section 4.1, could y= ou please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is = received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer yo= ur question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft&= nbsp;http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-= topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on= the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5= =BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology c= ase I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that = all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like t= his will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since a= ll the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explai= n how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need re= configuration. If one Rbridge advertiz= ing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be root= ed at the other Egress Rbr= idge ID advertizing affinity tlv.=

Also, consider addin= g following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (= and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-= ----
From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to l= ist the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions= for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBri= dge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solutio= n is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing s= ilicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is= necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-= flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. Bu= t after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic = up from RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic = down to RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table li= sts all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). M= TRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

|Solution|Incre-Deploy= |Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|PN   &= nbsp;  |YES         |NO &= nbsp;       |NO     =    |NO          |NO&= nbsp;          |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT   =   |NO          |YES =        |YES     &nbs= p; |YES         |NO  &nbs= p;        |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|MTRA   = ; |YES         |YES(will)  |YE= S       |YES     &nb= sp;   |YES          = |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2= =BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft





It is my understanding= that

a) CMT does require ch= anging all the RBs in the campus<= /p>

b) CMT requires there = be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link=

 

Of course, no solution= is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solut= ions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other= proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link= :

 

First note: regardless= of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they ca= n use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsul= ating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to = the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for th= at link when encapsulating

multidestination frame= s for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port = to the link is not in any of the trees,<= /span>

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared= link is in at least one tree, and R3's<= /span>

port to the link is no= t in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame= :

 

1) R3 could tunnel it = to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nicknam= e) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: mor= e hops, might be difficult

in some implementation= s for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tun= neled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its ow= n nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC= learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning chan= ges of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever = S sends unicast,

or multicast through R= 1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination fra= me from S).

 

------

There might have been = some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't lo= ve the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I = can live with it.

 

Radia

 

--Boundary_(ID_xsvssTTaQ08ylNk62etEbg)-- --===============0844463201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0844463201==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 00:49:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077E521F87D3 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:49:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.146, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DBk4fyrSnBFw for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876CF21F87DD for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U7R3Rs012875; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.force10networks.com (maa.force10networks.com [59.163.202.254]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U7QbOT012841 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com ([10.16.127.21]) by exch7-maa-fe.force10networks.com ([10.16.126.10]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:56:29 +0530 From: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan To: Mingui Zhang Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:00:19 +0530 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNggAAT3tCAAA2IQA== Message-ID: References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jana@force10networks.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Mingui=

 <= /p>

  When you realize active-active, you a= re asking for the active-active to be setup in a new topology and not the b= ase topology. So these nodes which need to talk to the other nodes which ar= e behind non-MT RBridges cannot do so any more.

 

  Specifically for MT to be backward compatible, you need all node= s which want to talk to each other part of the base topology. If you do tha= t you cannot realize active-active. If you put the active-active in a new t= opology, than they can no longer talk to nodes on the base topology of non-= MT RBridges.

 

So yes, MT-TRILL is backward co= mpatible for base topology, but the realization of active-active with MT = =A8C TRILL is not backward compatible. That was the point I was bringing up= .

 =

Thanks

Jana

&nb= sp;

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@hu= awei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM
To: Ja= nardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subjec= t: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [r= bridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

=

 

Hi Jana,

=  

All RBridges in = the campus are in the base topology. MT RBridges can well communicate with = non-MT RBridges using the base topology. 

<= div>

 

I feel that you are arguing that MT-TRILL is not backward=  compatible. That is a incorrect judgement.

=

 

Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7= =A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Nara= simhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 13:29
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [r= bridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

=

Hi Mingui,

 

With MT approach, when two RBridges which had stations talking to each= other and one of them is converted to MT, then the communication is broken= . So it does not have backward computability.

 

Tha= nks

Jana

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

 

Fr= om: Mingui Zhang [= mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 = 12:27 AM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: <= /span>=B4=F0=B8= =B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Jana,

 

L= et us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems c= onnected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them a= re converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that R= Bridges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nod= es connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

ZMG> Although physical reachabilit= y can be all to all, it does not mean than the end systems will really comm= unicate in an all to all manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration= of the campus. Let me give you an example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an a= ll to all connection. The access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as the= VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Computer Science while the access port= s of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept= of Literature. End systems from the same department can talk with each oth= er. But end systems from two different departments will not talk with each = other.

=

 

I am not sure if= that is practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected a= nd also what controls are available on them

 <= span style=3D'color:black'>

ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to = a group of RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He = need enter the console window to input the command line to configure parame= ters and start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used for hashin= g.

 

Thanks,

Mingui=

 

 

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janard= hanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= : RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00= to WG draft

=

Hi Mingui,

 

I= am slightly confused.

 

For the int= ra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific top= ology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only tal= ks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work very w= ell among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exist i= n the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be depl= oyed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus= which have end systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachab= le. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-ac= tive, does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be ab= le to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I mi= ssing something here?<= /p>

 

For the inte= r-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware R= Bridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize su= ch kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the requ= irement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the po= ssible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sur= e if that is practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connect= ed and also what controls are available on them

 

Th= anks

Jana

=

 <= /o:p>

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Mingui Zhang [z= hangmingui@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4= =EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5=BD: = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'>: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt= -00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 

>In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame = that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx? = ;

 

Two scenarios are given in Secti= on 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not= in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwardi= ng path to RBx.

 <= o:p>

Thanks,

Mingui

=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
<= span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52=
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC= =E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tr= ill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

Hi Mingui,

 <= /span>

Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in secti= on 4.2 multi destination frames will be ingressed with two different bridge= ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing function= s at the external node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that th= is can be classified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution= and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops etc.

 

I= n section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by = RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx? <= o:p>

 

Thanks

Jana

 <= /span>

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday,= March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@po= stel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tis= sa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 = ;

Hi Jana,

&= nbsp;

I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Z= hang.

Please refer to the draft ht= tp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Section = 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on the RPFC= using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

=

Thanks,

Mingui<= span style=3D'color:black'>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janard= hanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5=BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Per= lman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG= draft

<= div>

Hi Zhai,=

 

In the M= ulti-topology case I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable.= Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except f= or the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like thi= s will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since all= the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could yo= u please explain how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

<= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F= 497D'>Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf= Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53= PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir= )
Cc: rbr= idge@postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-t= rill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi M= ingui,

5. Fast convergence on failure reco= very. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of "aggr= egation". This dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way t= o do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge= or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution tr= ee need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overa= ll re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YE= S.

CMT does not need reconfiguration.<= /span> If one Rbridge adver= tizing affinity tlv goes down, the tree= can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID advertizing= affinity tlv.

<= span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Also, consider adding fol= lowing to the comparison table

Number of= New TLVs (and resulting complexity)

PN:= 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Than= ks
Rohit

-----Original Message-----
= From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-t= issa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons = of each solution. There are three candidate solutions for the same RPFC pro= blem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let = me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.=

2. Use= only existing silicons.

PN: NO. New sili= con is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may= flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by T= RILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-ca= st traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.=

4. Multi-cast traff= ic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: N= O.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on fa= ilure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of = "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution offe= rs a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregat= ed RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distr= ibution tree need to be recomputed.=

CMT: N= O. A overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lists al= l above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). MTRA is= always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+---------= ----+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|L= B Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+---= -----+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|PN      |YES &nb= sp;       |NO     &n= bsp;   |NO        |NO &nb= sp;        |NO    &n= bsp;      |

+----= ----+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT     |NO  &nbs= p;       |YES     &n= bsp;  |YES       |YES   &= nbsp;     |NO       =     |

+--------+-----------= -+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA    |YES      =    |YES(will)  |YES       |YES=          |YES   &nbs= p;      |<= /o:p>

+------= --+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : rbridge-b= ounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]=

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228= =C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbrid= ge@postel.org

<= p>=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call f= or draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<= o:p>




It is my understanding that

a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the cam= pus

b) CMT requires there be at least as = many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link

 

=

Of course, no solution = is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed soluti= ons to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

stil= l worth doing.

<= span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black'> 

So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 t= o be active/active/active on a link:

 = ;

First note: regardless of whether their = port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can use the pseudono= de

nickname when encapsulating unicast.<= /span>

 <= o:p>

Al= so, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudo= node nickname for that link when encapsulating

multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work witho= ut any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the tree= s,

here were some of the proposed soluti= ons.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared link is in at = least one tree, and R3's

port to the link = is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination = frame:

 

1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the pack= et (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs ot= her than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: more hops, = might be difficult

=

in some implementations= for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tunn= eled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickn= ame in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link= ; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of the source MAC = S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast,

or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 = (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame from S).

 

------

There might have been some other proposals, but th= ey wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of th= e two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I can live with it.

 

Radia <= span style=3D'color:black'>

 

= --_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD4711441577EXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============0513325992== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0513325992==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 01:22:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7153A21F849A for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.059 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.059 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.992, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ORBeyNowt43R for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E160321F8474 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U7iBal015541; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U7hevB015144 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1O00LUDTGRY7@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:43:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1O00EIATGRV3@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:43:39 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml212-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHX28391; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:43:38 +0800 Received: from SZXEML432-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.72.61.60) by szxeml212-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.181) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:43:30 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by SZXEML432-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.72.61.60]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:43:33 +0800 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:43:32 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIENhbGwgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXRpc3NhLXRyaWxsLWNt?= =?gb2312?Q?t-00_to_WG_draft?= In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.68] To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B7F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNggAAT3tCAAA2IQIAAAkK2 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Jana,

Have you forgotten the tunneling approach? In order to enable the comm= unication between MTRA RBridges and non-MT RBridges, we can always resort t= o the tunneling approach to redirect the aggregated traffic to the only par= ent of RBv on the distribution tree of the base topology for delivery. 

I did not mention tunneling since I like simple solutions. I think Sec= tion 4.2 of my draft did offer another simpler solution to allow us to enab= le the communication between MRTA RBridges and non-MT RBridges. I insist on= this solution until operators tell me it is not workable.

So, of course MRTA is backward compatible. 

Thanks,
Mingui
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi= Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 15:30
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui

 

  When you realize= active-active, you are asking for the active-active to be setup in a new t= opology and not the base topology. So these nodes which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind non-MT RBridges cannot do so a= ny more.

 

  Specifically for= MT to be backward compatible, you need all nodes which want to talk to eac= h other part of the base topology. If you do that you cannot realize active-active. If you put the active-active in a new topology, tha= n they can no longer talk to nodes on the base topology of non-MT RBridges.=

 

So yes, MT-TRILL is bac= kward compatible for base topology, but the realization of active-active wi= th MT =A8C TRILL is not backward compatible. That was the point I was bringing up.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui= Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4= =F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

All RBridges in the campus= are in the base topology. MT RBridges can well communicate with non-MT RBr= idges using the base topology. 

 

I feel that you are arguin= g that MT-TRILL is not backward compatible. That is a incorrect judgem= ent.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 13:29
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

With MT approach, when = two RBridges which had stations talking to each other and one of them is co= nverted to MT, then the communication is broken. So it does not have backward computability.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

Let us assume that I have = 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and all o= f them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBridges whic= h are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes connected= to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

ZMG> Although physical = reachability can be all to all, it does not mean than the end systems will = really communicate in an all to all manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you an example, RB1, = RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The access ports of RB1 and= RB3 are configured as the VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Computer Sci= ence while the access ports of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Lite= rature. End systems from the same department can talk with each other. But = end systems from two different departments will not talk with each other.

 

I am not sure if that is p= ractical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also wh= at controls are available on them=

 

ZMG> Think about it. Wh= en an operator have a LAG connected to a group of RBridges, he has to decid= e which port to plug the cables in. He need enter the console window to input the command line to configure parameters and start the LAG= . He also need to configure the tuple used for hashing.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.

 

For the intra-topology sce= nario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific topology other tha= n the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work ve= ry well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exi= st in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be = deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I ha= ve 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and al= l of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBr= idges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes= connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

For the inter-topology sce= nario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware RBridges (This = is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the r= equirement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the= possible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sure if that i= s practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also= what controls are available on them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.co= m]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5= =BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0= =B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tri= ll-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 

>In section 4.1, cou= ld you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001= is received at RBx? 

 

Two scenarios are given in= Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx = is not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.<= /span>

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not giv= e backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames = will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the extern= al node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be class= ified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also c= ause frequent MAC flip flops etc.=

 

In section 4.1, could y= ou please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is = received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer yo= ur question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft&= nbsp;http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-= topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on= the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5= =BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology c= ase I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that = all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like t= his will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since a= ll the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explai= n how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need re= configuration. If one Rbridge advertiz= ing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be root= ed at the other Egress Rbr= idge ID advertizing affinity tlv.=

Also, consider addin= g following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (= and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-= ----
From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to l= ist the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions= for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBri= dge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solutio= n is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing s= ilicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is= necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-= flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. Bu= t after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic = up from RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic = down to RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table li= sts all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). M= TRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

|Solution|Incre-Deploy= |Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|PN   &= nbsp;  |YES         |NO &= nbsp;       |NO     =    |NO          |NO&= nbsp;          |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT   =   |NO          |YES =        |YES     &nbs= p; |YES         |NO  &nbs= p;        |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|MTRA   = ; |YES         |YES(will)  |YE= S       |YES     &nb= sp;   |YES          = |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2= =BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft




It is my understanding= that

a) CMT does require ch= anging all the RBs in the campus<= /p>

b) CMT requires there = be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link=

 

Of course, no solution= is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solut= ions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other= proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link= :

 

First note: regardless= of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they ca= n use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsul= ating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to = the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for th= at link when encapsulating

multidestination frame= s for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port = to the link is not in any of the trees,<= /span>

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared= link is in at least one tree, and R3's<= /span>

port to the link is no= t in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame= :

 

1) R3 could tunnel it = to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nicknam= e) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: mor= e hops, might be difficult

in some implementation= s for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tun= neled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its ow= n nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC= learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning chan= ges of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever = S sends unicast,

or multicast through R= 1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination fra= me from S).

 

------

There might have been = some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't lo= ve the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I = can live with it.

 

Radia

 

--Boundary_(ID_tuJMg+uMeqJIqs3zLahBVw)-- --===============1613914508== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1613914508==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 01:25:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10AE521F883C for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:25:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.925 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.925 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.131, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYZw4ukqJJU0 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF5121F882F for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U7joVs015716; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.force10networks.com (maa.force10networks.com [59.163.202.254]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U7j4Qh015602 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com ([10.16.127.21]) by exch7-maa-fe.force10networks.com ([10.16.126.10]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:15:00 +0530 From: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan To: Mingui Zhang Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:18:51 +0530 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNggAAT3tCAAA2IQIAAAkK2gAADovA= Message-ID: References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B7F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B7F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jana@force10networks.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Minghi= ,

 =

With tunneling all approaches are backward= compatible, including CMT.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From:= Mingui = Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 20= 12 1:14 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbri= dge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

Have you forgotten the tunneling approach? In order to enable th= e communication between MTRA RBridges and non-MT RBridges, we can always re= sort to the tunneling approach to redirect the aggregated traffic to the on= ly parent of RBv on the distribution tree of the base topology for delivery= . 

 = ;

I did not mention tun= neling since I like simple solutions. I think Section 4.2 of my draft did o= ffer another simpler solution to allow us to enable the communication betwe= en MRTA RBridges and non-MT RBridges. I insist on this solution until opera= tors tell me it is not workable.

 

So, of course MRTA is backward compatible. 

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=

= =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi N= arasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 15:30
=B5=BD:<= /span> Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui

 

  When you realize active-active, you are asking for the activ= e-active to be setup in a new topology and not the base topology. So these = nodes which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind non-MT RBridge= s cannot do so any more.

 

  Specifically for = MT to be backward compatible, you need all nodes which want to talk to each= other part of the base topology. If you do that you cannot realize active-= active. If you put the active-active in a new topology, than they can no lo= nger talk to nodes on the base topology of non-MT RBridges.

&nbs= p;

So yes, MT-TRILL is backward compatible for base topology, but = the realization of active-active with MT =A8C TRILL is not backward compati= ble. That was the point I was bringing up.

 

Thanks<= /span>

Jana

 =

 

From:<= /span> Mingui Zhang [mail= to:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:1= 5 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

All RBridges = in the campus are in the base topology. MT RBridges can well communicate wi= th non-MT RBridges using the base topology. 

 <= /span>

I feel that you are arguing that MT-TRILL is not backward&= nbsp;compatible. That is a incorrect judgement.

 

Thanks,

Mingui<= o:p>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana= @force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4= =EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 13:29
=B5=BD: = Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: R= E: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 =

With MT approach, when two RBr= idges which had stations talking to each other and one of them is converted= to MT, then the communication is broken. So it does not have backward comp= utability.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingu= i@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: = =B4=F0=B8= =B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Jana,

 

L= et us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems c= onnected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them a= re converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that R= Bridges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nod= es connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

ZMG> Although physical reachabilit= y can be all to all, it does not mean than the end systems will really comm= unicate in an all to all manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration= of the campus. Let me give you an example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an a= ll to all connection. The access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as the= VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Computer Science while the access port= s of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept= of Literature. End systems from the same department can talk with each oth= er. But end systems from two different departments will not talk with each = other.

=

 

I am not sure if= that is practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected a= nd also what controls are available on them

 <= span style=3D'color:black'>

ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to = a group of RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He = need enter the console window to input the command line to configure parame= ters and start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used for hashin= g.

 

Thanks,

Mingui=

 

 

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janard= hanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= : RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00= to WG draft

=

Hi Mingui,

 

I= am slightly confused.

 

For the int= ra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific top= ology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only tal= ks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work very w= ell among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exist i= n the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be depl= oyed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus= which have end systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachab= le. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-ac= tive, does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be ab= le to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I mi= ssing something here?<= /p>

 

For the inte= r-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware R= Bridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize su= ch kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the requ= irement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the po= ssible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sur= e if that is practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connect= ed and also what controls are available on them

 

Th= anks

Jana

=

 <= /o:p>

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Mingui Zhang [z= hangmingui@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4= =EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5=BD: = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'>: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt= -00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 

>In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame = that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx? = ;

 

Two scenarios are given in Secti= on 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not= in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwardi= ng path to RBx.

 <= o:p>

Thanks,

Mingui

=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
<= span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52=
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC= =E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tr= ill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

Hi Mingui,

 <= /span>

Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in secti= on 4.2 multi destination frames will be ingressed with two different bridge= ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing function= s at the external node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that th= is can be classified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution= and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops etc.

 

I= n section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by = RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx? <= o:p>

 

Thanks

Jana

 <= /span>

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday,= March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@po= stel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tis= sa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 = ;

Hi Jana,

&= nbsp;

I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Z= hang.

Please refer to the draft ht= tp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Section = 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on the RPFC= using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

=

Thanks,

Mingui<= span style=3D'color:black'>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janard= hanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5=BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Per= lman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG= draft

<= div>

Hi Zhai,=

 

In the M= ulti-topology case I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable.= Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except f= or the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like thi= s will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since all= the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could yo= u please explain how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

<= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F= 497D'>Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf= Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53= PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir= )
Cc: rbr= idge@postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-t= rill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi M= ingui,

5. Fast convergence on failure reco= very. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of "aggr= egation". This dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way t= o do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge= or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution tr= ee need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overa= ll re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YE= S.

CMT does not need reconfiguration.<= /span> If one Rbridge adver= tizing affinity tlv goes down, the tree= can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID advertizing= affinity tlv.

<= span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Also, consider adding fol= lowing to the comparison table

Number of= New TLVs (and resulting complexity)

PN:= 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Than= ks
Rohit

-----Original Message-----
= From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-t= issa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons = of each solution. There are three candidate solutions for the same RPFC pro= blem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let = me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.=

2. Use= only existing silicons.

PN: NO. New sili= con is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may= flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by T= RILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-ca= st traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.=

4. Multi-cast traff= ic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: N= O.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on fa= ilure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of = "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution offe= rs a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregat= ed RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distr= ibution tree need to be recomputed.=

CMT: N= O. A overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lists al= l above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). MTRA is= always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+---------= ----+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|L= B Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+---= -----+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|PN      |YES &nb= sp;       |NO     &n= bsp;   |NO        |NO &nb= sp;        |NO    &n= bsp;      |

+----= ----+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT     |NO  &nbs= p;       |YES     &n= bsp;  |YES       |YES   &= nbsp;     |NO       =     |

+--------+-----------= -+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA    |YES      =    |YES(will)  |YES       |YES=          |YES   &nbs= p;      |<= /o:p>

+------= --+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : rbridge-b= ounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]=

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228= =C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbrid= ge@postel.org

<= p>=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call f= or draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<= o:p>



It is my understanding that

a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there be at least as many t= rees as there are active/active RBs on any link

 

Of course, no solution is ide= al.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solutions to= this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still wort= h doing.

 

So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be a= ctive/active/active on a link:

 

First note: regardless of whether their port t= o the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsulating unicast.

 

Also, if R= i's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nic= kname for that link when encapsulating

mul= tidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any p= roblems.

 

However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees,=

here were some of the proposed solutions.  = So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared link is in at least one t= ree, and R3's

port to the link is not in a= ny of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame:

 =

1) R3 = could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with ps= eudonode nickname) into the campus.=

 =

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than th= e ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: more hops, might be di= fficult

in some implementations for R3 to = forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet= .

 

= 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this= case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible.  Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between be= ing on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast,

or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has= to encapsulate a multidestination frame from S).

 

<= span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black'>------

There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up = not to work.

 

Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadv= antages I mentioned above, but I can live with it.

 

= Radia

 

=
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Hi Jana,

The beauty of MTRA is that aggregated members can determine themselves= whether to use tunneling or not according to the egress RBridges. For MT e= gress RBridges, they need not do tunneling.

As long as there is only one old RBridge in the campus, CMT does not w= ork. In order to be backward compatible using tunneling, CMT just simply di= sappears totally. There is no CMT anymore. 

Thanks,
Mingui
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi= Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 15:48
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Minghi,

 

With tunneling all appr= oaches are backward compatible, including CMT.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui= Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:14 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4= =F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

Have you forgotten the tun= neling approach? In order to enable the communication between MTRA RBridges= and non-MT RBridges, we can always resort to the tunneling approach to redirect the aggregated traffic to the only parent of RBv on t= he distribution tree of the base topology for delivery. 

 

I did not mention tunnelin= g since I like simple solutions. I think Section 4.2 of my draft did offer = another simpler solution to allow us to enable the communication between MRTA RBridges and non-MT RBridges. I insist on this solution until= operators tell me it is not workable.

 

So, of course MRTA is back= ward compatible. 

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 15:30
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui

 

  When you realize= active-active, you are asking for the active-active to be setup in a new t= opology and not the base topology. So these nodes which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind non-MT RBridges cannot do so a= ny more.

 

  Specifically for= MT to be backward compatible, you need all nodes which want to talk to eac= h other part of the base topology. If you do that you cannot realize active-active. If you put the active-active in a new topology, tha= n they can no longer talk to nodes on the base topology of non-MT RBridges.=

 

So yes, MT-TRILL is bac= kward compatible for base topology, but the realization of active-active wi= th MT =A8C TRILL is not backward compatible. That was the point I was bringing up.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

All RBridges in the campus= are in the base topology. MT RBridges can well communicate with non-MT RBr= idges using the base topology. 

 

I feel that you are arguin= g that MT-TRILL is not backward compatible. That is a incorrect judgem= ent.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 13:29
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

With MT approach, when = two RBridges which had stations talking to each other and one of them is co= nverted to MT, then the communication is broken. So it does not have backward computability.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

Let us assume that I have = 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and all o= f them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBridges whic= h are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes connected= to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

ZMG> Although physical = reachability can be all to all, it does not mean than the end systems will = really communicate in an all to all manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you an example, RB1, = RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The access ports of RB1 and= RB3 are configured as the VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Computer Sci= ence while the access ports of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Lite= rature. End systems from the same department can talk with each other. But = end systems from two different departments will not talk with each other.

 

I am not sure if that is p= ractical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also wh= at controls are available on them=

 

ZMG> Think about it. Wh= en an operator have a LAG connected to a group of RBridges, he has to decid= e which port to plug the cables in. He need enter the console window to input the command line to configure parameters and start the LAG= . He also need to configure the tuple used for hashing.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.

 

For the intra-topology sce= nario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific topology other tha= n the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work ve= ry well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exi= st in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be = deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I ha= ve 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and al= l of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBr= idges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes= connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

For the inter-topology sce= nario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware RBridges (This = is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the r= equirement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the= possible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sure if that i= s practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also= what controls are available on them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.co= m]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5= =BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0= =B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tri= ll-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 

>In section 4.1, cou= ld you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001= is received at RBx? 

 

Two scenarios are given in= Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx = is not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.<= /span>

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not giv= e backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames = will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the extern= al node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be class= ified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also c= ause frequent MAC flip flops etc.=

 

In section 4.1, could y= ou please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is = received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer yo= ur question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft&= nbsp;http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-= topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on= the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5= =BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology c= ase I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that = all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like t= his will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since a= ll the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explai= n how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need re= configuration. If one Rbridge advertiz= ing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be root= ed at the other Egress Rbr= idge ID advertizing affinity tlv.=

Also, consider addin= g following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (= and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-= ----
From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to l= ist the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions= for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBri= dge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solutio= n is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing s= ilicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is= necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-= flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. Bu= t after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic = up from RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic = down to RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table li= sts all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). M= TRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

|Solution|Incre-Deploy= |Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|PN   &= nbsp;  |YES         |NO &= nbsp;       |NO     =    |NO          |NO&= nbsp;          |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT   =   |NO          |YES =        |YES     &nbs= p; |YES         |NO  &nbs= p;        |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|MTRA   = ; |YES         |YES(will)  |YE= S       |YES     &nb= sp;   |YES          = |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2= =BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft



It is my understanding= that

a) CMT does require ch= anging all the RBs in the campus<= /p>

b) CMT requires there = be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link=

 

Of course, no solution= is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solut= ions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other= proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link= :

 

First note: regardless= of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they ca= n use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsul= ating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to = the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for th= at link when encapsulating

multidestination frame= s for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port = to the link is not in any of the trees,<= /span>

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared= link is in at least one tree, and R3's<= /span>

port to the link is no= t in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame= :

 

1) R3 could tunnel it = to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nicknam= e) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: mor= e hops, might be difficult

in some implementation= s for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tun= neled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its ow= n nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC= learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning chan= ges of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever = S sends unicast,

or multicast through R= 1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination fra= me from S).

 

------

There might have been = some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't lo= ve the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I = can live with it.

 

Radia

 

--Boundary_(ID_SsqJiljH2sBc8PVHDmd5Zg)-- --===============1786340599== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1786340599==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 01:53:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3478C21F88AD for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:53:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.203, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2xxfkY9RmMpO for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8399D21F88A6 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U8PZMf021713; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U8P8FW021675 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:25:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=80375; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1333095916; x=1334305516; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to:cc; bh=QRFIB+9Yu9wUzWcNBsxgX62cRbkY3917zkwrdn3AMDI=; b=LWbQSShCgCdAoGDhlC36dyaM9l/35NVOKwaQ2cwTh/wTLiAaeUuJWcEJ qeULv+wAc+s13N+GKI2q+87yaZTPTeecXbYvvarQvZ4jMs7uYSVChpzth A3RGp+LcMRGiSdi+1y6fFm0yy8izrafJ3aVbq+hEYK+EMohvcMfAeWMLl E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkUFAIBtdU+rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABEgkaDAKoxAYhvgQeCCQEBAQQSAQcCARADNQgMDAQCAQYCEQQBAQsGEAEGAQQCASAlCQgCBAESCBMHh2cBC5tqjQIIkg+KB4VtOWMEiFiOGoohgxSBaIMH X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,342,1330905600"; d="scan'208,217";a="35225458" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Mar 2012 08:25:07 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2U8P6Rx026065; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:25:06 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:25:06 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:25:03 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0EDA@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNggAAT3tCAAA2IQIAADzCA References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325! E728CB099 E@SZXEML507- MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" , "Mingui Zhang" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2012 08:25:06.0372 (UTC) FILETIME=[9CC0A040:01CD0E4E] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1017900570==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1017900570== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0E4E.9C64988D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0E4E.9C64988D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jana is absolutely correct in the observation on below. =20 One more point to add, as have indicated earlier =20 1. Not all customer will run multi-topology 2. You cannot force customers to run multi-topology when they need = active-active forwarding 3. What is your solution for customers who want to run = multi-topology ? =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:30 AM To: Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 Hi Mingui =20 When you realize active-active, you are asking for the active-active = to be setup in a new topology and not the base topology. So these nodes = which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind non-MT RBridges = cannot do so any more.=20 =20 Specifically for MT to be backward compatible, you need all nodes = which want to talk to each other part of the base topology. If you do = that you cannot realize active-active. If you put the active-active in a = new topology, than they can no longer talk to nodes on the base topology = of non-MT RBridges. =20 So yes, MT-TRILL is backward compatible for base topology, but the = realization of active-active with MT =A8C TRILL is not backward = compatible. That was the point I was bringing up. =20 Thanks Jana =20 =20 From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 Hi Jana,=20 =20 All RBridges in the campus are in the base topology. MT RBridges can = well communicate with non-MT RBridges using the base topology.=20 =20 I feel that you are arguing that MT-TRILL is not backward compatible. = That is a incorrect judgement. =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 13:29 =B5=BD: Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Mingui, =20 With MT approach, when two RBridges which had stations talking to each = other and one of them is converted to MT, then the communication is = broken. So it does not have backward computability.=20 =20 Thanks Jana =20 =20 From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 Hi Jana,=20 =20 Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end = systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a = few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, = does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able = to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I = missing something here? =20 ZMG> Although physical reachability can be all to all, it does not mean = than the end systems will really communicate in an all to all manner. It = is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you = an example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The = access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as the VLAN for end systems = of the Dept of Computer Science while the access ports of RB2 and RB4 = are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept of = Literature. End systems from the same department can talk with each = other. But end systems from two different departments will not talk with = each other. =20 I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on them =20 ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a group of = RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need = enter the console window to input the command line to configure = parameters and start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used = for hashing. =20 Thanks, Mingui =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49 =B5=BD: Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Mingui, =20 I am slightly confused.=20 =20 For the intra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in = a specific topology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA = RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, = MTRA can work very well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and = old RBridges co-exist in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid = example that MTRA can be deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not = allow such kind of deployment. =20 Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end = systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a = few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, = does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able = to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I = missing something here? =20 For the inter-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk = with MT unaware RBridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators = do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume = they will accept the requirement that they need to configure their = hashing function to remove the possible MAC flip-flop.=20 =20 I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on them =20 Thanks Jana =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Mingui Zhang = [zhangmingui@huawei.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50 =B5=BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft Hi Jana,=20 =20 >In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is = ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?=20 =20 Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the = intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so it is = unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx. =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52 =B5=BD: Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Mingui, =20 Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 = multi destination frames will be ingressed with two different bridge ID = causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions = at the external node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that = this can be classified as backward compatible since it is not a full = solution and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops etc. =20 In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingressed = by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?=20 =20 Thanks Jana =20 =20 From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 Hi Jana,=20 =20 I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Zhang. Please refer to the draft = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Section = 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on the = RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments. =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14 =B5=BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Zhai, =20 In the Multi-topology case I am not sure what is meant by incrementally = deployable. Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus do not = understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual = RBrodge, it looks like this will cause MAC flip flop on the other = RBridges and other issues since all the other RBridges do not understand = MT. =20 Could you please explain how MT can work in such scenarios? Thanks Jana =20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve) Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 Hi Mingui, 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES. CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity = tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv. Also, consider adding following to the comparison table Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity) PN: 3 CMT: 1 MTRA: multiple Thanks Rohit -----Original Message----- From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Radia, It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are = three candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions. 1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able. PN: YES. CMT: NO. MTRA: YES. 2. Use only existing silicons.=20 PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop. CMT: YES. MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it = is a "YES". 3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES.=20 The following table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also = attached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our = follow-up.=20 +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= |Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast = Converge| +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |PN |YES |NO |NO |NO |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |CMT |NO |YES |YES |YES |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |MTRA |YES |YES(will) |YES |YES |YES = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= Thanks, Mingui =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52 =B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft It is my understanding that a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are = active/active RBs on any link =20 Of course, no solution is ideal. It might have been nice to write up = all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's still worth doing. =20 So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link: =20 First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, = unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode nickname when encapsulating unicast. =20 Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the = pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without = any problems. =20 However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees, here were some of the proposed solutions. So, let's say that R1 and = R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate = a multidestination frame: =20 1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet = (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus. =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: more hops, might be difficult in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be = difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet. =20 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in = this case =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the = pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast, or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to = encapsulate a multidestination frame from S). =20 ------ There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work. =20 Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages = I mentioned above, but I can live with it. =20 Radia=20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0E4E.9C64988D Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jana is absolutely correct in the observation on = below.

 

One more point to add, as have indicated = earlier

 

1.       = Not all customer will run multi-topology

2.       = You cannot force customers to run multi-topology when they need = active-active forwarding

3.       = What is your solution for customers who want to run multi-topology = ?

 

From:= = rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Sent: Friday, = March 30, 2012 12:30 AM
To: Mingui Zhang
Cc: = rbridge@postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Mingui

 

  When you realize active-active, you are asking for the = active-active to be setup in a new topology and not the base topology. = So these nodes which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind = non-MT RBridges cannot do so any more.

 

  Specifically for MT to be backward compatible, you need all = nodes which want to talk to each other part of the base topology. If you = do that you cannot realize active-active. If you put the active-active = in a new topology, than they can no longer talk to nodes on the base = topology of non-MT RBridges.

 

So yes, MT-TRILL is backward compatible for base topology, but the = realization of active-active with MT =A8C TRILL is not backward = compatible. That was the point I was bringing = up.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From:= = Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM
To: = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:<= /b> =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 

= Hi Jana,

=  

= All RBridges in the campus are in the base topology. MT RBridges can = well communicate with non-MT RBridges using the base = topology. 

=  

= I feel that you are arguing that MT-TRILL is not = backward compatible. That is a incorrect = judgement.

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 30=C8=D5= 13:29
=B5=BD= := Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

 

With MT approach, when two RBridges which had stations talking to = each other and one of them is converted to MT, then the communication is = broken. So it does not have backward computability.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

= From:= Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To: = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:<= /b> =B4=F0=B8=B4= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

= Hi Jana,

=  

= Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end = systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a = few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, = does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able = to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I = missing something here?

=  

= ZMG> Although physical reachability can be all to all, it does not = mean than the end systems will really communicate in an all to all = manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me = give you an example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all = connection. The access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as the VLAN = for end systems of the Dept of Computer Science while the access ports = of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the = Dept of Literature. End systems from the same department can talk with = each other. But end systems from two different departments will not talk = with each other.

=  

= I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on = them

=  

= ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a group = of RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need = enter the console window to input the command line to configure = parameters and start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used = for hashing.

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=  

=  

=  

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 30=C8=D5= 0:49
=B5=BD= := Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.

=  

= For the intra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in = a specific topology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA = RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, = MTRA can work very well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and = old RBridges co-exist in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid = example that MTRA can be deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not = allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end = systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a = few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, = does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able = to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I = missing something here?

=  

= For the inter-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk = with MT unaware RBridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators = do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume = they will accept the requirement that they need to configure their = hashing function to remove the possible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on = them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED= Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 29=C8=D5= 18:50
=B5=BD= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := =B4=F0=B8=B4= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

= Hi Jana, 

=  

>In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is = ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?=  

=  

= Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the = intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so it is = unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to = RBx.

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 28=C8=D5= 22:52
=B5=BD= := Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in section = 4.2 multi destination frames will be ingressed with two different bridge = ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing = functions at the external node may or may not be acceptable . I am not = sure that this can be classified as backward compatible since it is not = a full solution and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops = etc.

 

In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is = ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

= From:= Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: = Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

= Hi Jana,

=  

= I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Zhang.

= Please refer to the draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo= -rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a = starter draft on the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to = receive your comments.

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 28=C8=D5= 19:14
=B5=BD= := Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology case I am not sure what is meant by = incrementally deployable. Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus = do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the = Virtual RBrodge, it looks like this will cause MAC flip flop on the = other RBridges and other issues since all the other RBridges do not = understand MT.

 

Could you please explain how MT can work in such = scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

= From:= rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of = Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 = PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on = failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main = purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether = the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a = failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution = tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall = re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need = reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing = affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at = the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding = following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (and = resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original = Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of = Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia = Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to list the = Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions for = the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for = RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following = dimensions.

1. Whether the solution is = incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing = silicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is = necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may = flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But after = multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a = "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic up from = RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic down to = RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on = failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main = purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether = the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a = failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution = tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall = re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lists all = above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). MTRA = is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old = Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|PN    &nb= sp; |YES         = |NO         = |NO        = |NO          = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|CMT     = |NO          = |YES        = |YES       = |YES         = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA    = |YES         |YES(will)  = |YES       = |YES         = |YES          |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft



It is my understanding = that

a) CMT does require changing = all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there be at = least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any = link

 

Of course, no solution is = ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed = solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth = doing.

 

So from memory...other = proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a = link:

 

First note: regardless of = whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can = use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsulating = unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to the = link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for = that link when encapsulating

multidestination frames for = ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port to the = link is not in any of the trees,

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the = shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the link is not in = any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination = frame:

 

1) R3 could tunnel it to one = of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nickname) = into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs = other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: more = hops, might be difficult

in some implementations for = R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a = tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its own = nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs = other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC = learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of = the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S = sends unicast,

or multicast through R1 or = R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame = from S).

 

------

There might have been some = other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't love the = CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I can = live with it.

 

Radia

 

=
------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0E4E.9C64988D-- --===============1017900570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1017900570==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 02:03:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B4021F878E for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:03:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.181, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bHXiFfve3kju for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1649521F8786 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U8bi40023754; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U8b0AS023667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:37:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=82966; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1333096629; x=1334306229; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:references:from:to: cc; bh=CJlgNycoeD+5ei1rAGt5umIIsZeoNUpPO5nNAlfROss=; b=Uk6kT0PrP08ye2PV2Hrsktv/9wkEMg/k8AlwimMxtqGsQQHb/o6D+pz4 v+DsCdvthRtHzQfq9t6dMosryfW6bRNaR5xn3c8TNcGkzTN32DW1XDEcz 8oXgYF3Q72OfhdIfmlUZSyCcpZnPwbeqj2iRF0ARWmgxDq56CusqYUaK4 I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkUFAJhvdU+rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABEgkaDAKomAYhvgQeCCQEBAQQSAQcCARADNQgMDAQCAQYCEQQBAQsGEAEGAQQCASAlCQgCBAESCBMHh2cBC5tnjQIIkg+KB4VtOWMEiFiOGoohgxSBaIMH X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,342,1330905600"; d="scan'208,217";a="38342425" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Mar 2012 08:37:00 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2U8axW0022689; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:36:59 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:36:59 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:36:56 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0EDD@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNggAAT3tCAAA2IQIAADzCAgAAD9EA= References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325! E728CB099 E@SZXEML507- MBS.china.huawei.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" , "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" , "Mingui Zhang" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2012 08:36:59.0707 (UTC) FILETIME=[45EEE8B0:01CD0E50] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0781788948==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0781788948== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0E50.45AAA98D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0E50.45AAA98D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Small typo correction=20 =20 From: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=20 Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:25 AM To: 'Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan'; Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 Jana is absolutely correct on the observation below. =20 One more point to add, as have indicated earlier =20 1. Not all customer will run multi-topology 2. You cannot force customers to run multi-topology when they need = active-active forwarding 3. What is your solution for customers who *do NOT* want to run = multi-topology ? =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:30 AM To: Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 Hi Mingui =20 When you realize active-active, you are asking for the active-active = to be setup in a new topology and not the base topology. So these nodes = which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind non-MT RBridges = cannot do so any more.=20 =20 Specifically for MT to be backward compatible, you need all nodes = which want to talk to each other part of the base topology. If you do = that you cannot realize active-active. If you put the active-active in a = new topology, than they can no longer talk to nodes on the base topology = of non-MT RBridges. =20 So yes, MT-TRILL is backward compatible for base topology, but the = realization of active-active with MT =A8C TRILL is not backward = compatible. That was the point I was bringing up. =20 Thanks Jana =20 =20 From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 Hi Jana,=20 =20 All RBridges in the campus are in the base topology. MT RBridges can = well communicate with non-MT RBridges using the base topology.=20 =20 I feel that you are arguing that MT-TRILL is not backward compatible. = That is a incorrect judgement. =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 13:29 =B5=BD: Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Mingui, =20 With MT approach, when two RBridges which had stations talking to each = other and one of them is converted to MT, then the communication is = broken. So it does not have backward computability.=20 =20 Thanks Jana =20 =20 From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 Hi Jana,=20 =20 Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end = systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a = few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, = does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able = to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I = missing something here? =20 ZMG> Although physical reachability can be all to all, it does not mean = than the end systems will really communicate in an all to all manner. It = is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you = an example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The = access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as the VLAN for end systems = of the Dept of Computer Science while the access ports of RB2 and RB4 = are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept of = Literature. End systems from the same department can talk with each = other. But end systems from two different departments will not talk with = each other. =20 I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on them =20 ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a group of = RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need = enter the console window to input the command line to configure = parameters and start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used = for hashing. =20 Thanks, Mingui =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49 =B5=BD: Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Mingui, =20 I am slightly confused.=20 =20 For the intra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in = a specific topology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA = RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, = MTRA can work very well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and = old RBridges co-exist in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid = example that MTRA can be deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not = allow such kind of deployment. =20 Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end = systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a = few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, = does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able = to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I = missing something here? =20 For the inter-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk = with MT unaware RBridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators = do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume = they will accept the requirement that they need to configure their = hashing function to remove the possible MAC flip-flop.=20 =20 I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on them =20 Thanks Jana =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Mingui Zhang = [zhangmingui@huawei.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50 =B5=BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft Hi Jana,=20 =20 >In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is = ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?=20 =20 Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the = intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so it is = unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx. =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52 =B5=BD: Mingui Zhang Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Mingui, =20 Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 = multi destination frames will be ingressed with two different bridge ID = causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions = at the external node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that = this can be classified as backward compatible since it is not a full = solution and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops etc. =20 In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingressed = by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?=20 =20 Thanks Jana =20 =20 From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 Hi Jana,=20 =20 I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Zhang. Please refer to the draft = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Section = 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on the = RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments. =20 Thanks, Mingui ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14 =B5=BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Zhai, =20 In the Multi-topology case I am not sure what is meant by incrementally = deployable. Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus do not = understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual = RBrodge, it looks like this will cause MAC flip flop on the other = RBridges and other issues since all the other RBridges do not understand = MT. =20 Could you please explain how MT can work in such scenarios? Thanks Jana =20 =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve) Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 Hi Mingui, 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES. CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity = tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv. Also, consider adding following to the comparison table Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity) PN: 3 CMT: 1 MTRA: multiple Thanks Rohit -----Original Message----- From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Radia, It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are = three candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions. 1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able. PN: YES. CMT: NO. MTRA: YES. 2. Use only existing silicons.=20 PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop. CMT: YES. MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it = is a "YES". 3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES.=20 The following table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also = attached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our = follow-up.=20 +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= |Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast = Converge| +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |PN |YES |NO |NO |NO |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |CMT |NO |YES |YES |YES |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |MTRA |YES |YES(will) |YES |YES |YES = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= Thanks, Mingui =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52 =B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 It is my understanding that a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are = active/active RBs on any link =20 Of course, no solution is ideal. It might have been nice to write up = all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's still worth doing. =20 So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link: =20 First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, = unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode nickname when encapsulating unicast. =20 Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the = pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without = any problems. =20 However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees, here were some of the proposed solutions. So, let's say that R1 and = R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate = a multidestination frame: =20 1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet = (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus. =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: more hops, might be difficult in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be = difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet. =20 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in = this case =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the = pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast, or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to = encapsulate a multidestination frame from S). =20 ------ There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work. =20 Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages = I mentioned above, but I can live with it. =20 Radia=20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0E50.45AAA98D Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Small typo correction

 

From:= = Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 = 1:25 AM
To: 'Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan'; Mingui = Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 

Jana is absolutely correct on the observation below.

 

One more point to add, as have indicated = earlier

 

1.       = Not all customer will run multi-topology

2.       = You cannot force customers to run multi-topology when they need = active-active forwarding

3.       = What is your solution for customers who *do NOT* want to run multi-topology ?

 

From:= = rbridge-bounces@postel.org= [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.= org] On Behalf Of Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:30 AM
To: = Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:<= /b> Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 

Hi Mingui

 

  When you realize active-active, you are asking for the = active-active to be setup in a new topology and not the base topology. = So these nodes which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind = non-MT RBridges cannot do so any more.

 

  Specifically for MT to be backward compatible, you need all = nodes which want to talk to each other part of the base topology. If you = do that you cannot realize active-active. If you put the active-active = in a new topology, than they can no longer talk to nodes on the base = topology of non-MT RBridges.

 

So yes, MT-TRILL is backward compatible for base topology, but the = realization of active-active with MT =A8C TRILL is not backward = compatible. That was the point I was bringing = up.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From:= = Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM
To: = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:<= /b> =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 

= Hi Jana,

=  

= All RBridges in the campus are in the base topology. MT RBridges can = well communicate with non-MT RBridges using the base = topology. 

=  

= I feel that you are arguing that MT-TRILL is not = backward compatible. That is a incorrect = judgement.

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 30=C8=D5= 13:29
=B5=BD= := Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

 

With MT approach, when two RBridges which had stations talking to = each other and one of them is converted to MT, then the communication is = broken. So it does not have backward computability.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

= From:= Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To: = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:<= /b> =B4=F0=B8=B4= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

= Hi Jana,

=  

= Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end = systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a = few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, = does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able = to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I = missing something here?

=  

= ZMG> Although physical reachability can be all to all, it does not = mean than the end systems will really communicate in an all to all = manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me = give you an example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all = connection. The access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as the VLAN = for end systems of the Dept of Computer Science while the access ports = of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the = Dept of Literature. End systems from the same department can talk with = each other. But end systems from two different departments will not talk = with each other.

=  

= I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on = them

=  

= ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a group = of RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need = enter the console window to input the command line to configure = parameters and start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used = for hashing.

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=  

=  

=  

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 30=C8=D5= 0:49
=B5=BD= := Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.

=  

= For the intra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in = a specific topology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA = RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, = MTRA can work very well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and = old RBridges co-exist in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid = example that MTRA can be deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not = allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end = systems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a = few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, = does it mean that RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able = to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I = missing something here?

=  

= For the inter-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk = with MT unaware RBridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators = do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume = they will accept the requirement that they need to configure their = hashing function to remove the possible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on = the nodes connected and also what controls are available on = them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED= Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 29=C8=D5= 18:50
=B5=BD= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := =B4=F0=B8=B4= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

= Hi Jana, 

=  

>In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is = ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?=  

=  

= Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the = intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so it is = unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to = RBx.

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 28=C8=D5= 22:52
=B5=BD= := Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in section = 4.2 multi destination frames will be ingressed with two different bridge = ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing = functions at the external node may or may not be acceptable . I am not = sure that this can be classified as backward compatible since it is not = a full solution and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops = etc.

 

In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is = ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

= From:= Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: = Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

= Hi Jana,

=  

= I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Zhang.

= Please refer to the draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo= -rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a = starter draft on the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to = receive your comments.

=  

= Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= := Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan = [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= := 2012=C4=EA= 3=D4=C2= 28=C8=D5= 19:14
=B5=BD= := Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2= := RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology case I am not sure what is meant by = incrementally deployable. Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus = do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the = Virtual RBrodge, it looks like this will cause MAC flip flop on the = other RBridges and other issues since all the other RBridges do not = understand MT.

 

Could you please explain how MT can work in such = scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

= From:= rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of = Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 = PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on = failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main = purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether = the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a = failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution = tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall = re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need = reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing = affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at = the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding = following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (and = resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original = Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of = Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia = Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to list the = Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions for = the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for = RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following = dimensions.

1. Whether the solution is = incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing = silicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is = necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may = flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But after = multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a = "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic up from = RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic down to = RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on = failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main = purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether = the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a = failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution = tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall = re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lists all = above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). MTRA = is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old = Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|PN    &nb= sp; |YES         = |NO         = |NO        = |NO          = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|CMT     = |NO          = |YES        = |YES       = |YES         = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA    = |YES         |YES(will)  = |YES       = |YES         = |YES          |

+--------+------------+-------= ----+----------+------------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

It is my understanding = that

a) CMT does require changing = all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there be at = least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any = link

 

Of course, no solution is = ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed = solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth = doing.

 

So from memory...other = proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a = link:

 

First note: regardless of = whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can = use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsulating = unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to the = link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for = that link when encapsulating

multidestination frames for = ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port to the = link is not in any of the trees,

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the = shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the link is not in = any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination = frame:

 

1) R3 could tunnel it to one = of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nickname) = into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs = other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: more = hops, might be difficult

in some implementations for = R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a = tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its own = nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs = other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC = learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of = the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S = sends unicast,

or multicast through R1 or = R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame = from S).

 

------

There might have been some = other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't love the = CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I can = live with it.

 

Radia

 

=
------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0E50.45AAA98D-- --===============0781788948== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0781788948==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 03:10:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D81C21F8698 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 03:10:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.913 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.913 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.119, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ed2AzEpi4w2F for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 03:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392F521F8697 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 03:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U9XoL0002536; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.force10networks.com (maa.force10networks.com [59.163.202.254]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U9XE0n002177 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com ([10.16.127.21]) by exch7-maa-fe.force10networks.com ([10.16.126.10]) with mapi; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:03:07 +0530 From: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan To: Mingui Zhang Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:06:57 +0530 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNggAAT3tCAAA2IQIAAAkK2gAADovD///9TQYAAHoYg Message-ID: References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B7F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B9C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B9C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jana@force10networks.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Mingui= ,

 =

The tunneling is only for multi-destinatio= n frames and not for unicast frames. Hence not sure what you are referring = to here as tunneling based on egress RBridge.

 

When you say CMT disappears, I am assuming you mean that we will have to = do tunneling for all multi-destination frames. Much the same as what we wou= ld have to do with MT when one non-MT RBridge exists.

=

 

Thanks

Jana<= /o:p>

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent:<= /b> Friday, March 30, 2012 1:26 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Naras= imhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-t= issa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

The beauty of MTRA is that agg= regated members can determine themselves whether to use tunneling or not ac= cording to the egress RBridges. For MT egress RBridges, they need not do tu= nneling.

&n= bsp;

As long as there i= s only one old RBridge in the campus, CMT does not work. In order to be bac= kward compatible using tunneling, CMT just simply disappears totally. There= is no CMT anymore. 

 

Tha= nks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks= .com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8= =D5 15:48
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
<= b>Cc: rbridge@postel.org
<= /span>=D6=F7= =CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa= -trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Minghi,

 =

With tunneling all approa= ches are backward compatible, including CMT.

 

Than= ks

Jana

 

 

Fro= m: Mingui Zhang [m= ailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1= :14 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Jana, <= /span>

 

Have you fo= rgotten the tunneling approach? In order to enable the communication betwee= n MTRA RBridges and non-MT RBridges, we can always resort to the tunneling = approach to redirect the aggregated traffic to the only parent of RBv on th= e distribution tree of the base topology for delivery. 

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'> 

I did not mention tunneling since I like simple = solutions. I think Section 4.2 of my draft did offer another simpler soluti= on to allow us to enable the communication between MRTA RBridges and non-MT= RBridges. I insist on this solution until operators tell me it is not work= able.

 =

So, of course MRTA is backwa= rd compatible. 

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'> 15:30
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: <= a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org" target=3D"_blank">rbridge@postel.org
= =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft= -tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui

 

  When you realize active-active, you are asking for = the active-active to be setup in a new topology and not the base topology. = So these nodes which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind non-M= T RBridges cannot do so any more. <= /o:p>

 

  Specific= ally for MT to be backward compatible, you need all nodes which want to tal= k to each other part of the base topology. If you do that you cannot realiz= e active-active. If you put the active-active in a new topology, than they = can no longer talk to nodes on the base topology of non-MT RBridges.=

 

So yes, MT-TRILL is backward compatible for base topolo= gy, but the realization of active-active with MT =A8C TRILL is not backward= compatible. That was the point I was bringing up.

 

Thanks

Jana<= /p>

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: F= riday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimha= n
Cc: rbr= idge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for dr= aft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<= /o:p>

 

Hi Jana,

 

=

All RBridges in the campus are in the base to= pology. MT RBridges can well communicate with non-MT RBridges using the bas= e topology. 

<= /div>

 

I feel that you = are arguing that MT-TRILL is not backward compatible. That is a incorr= ect judgement.

 

Thanks,

= Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'> 13:29
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: <= a href=3D"mailto:rbridge@postel.org" target=3D"_blank">rbridge@postel.org
= =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft= -tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,<= span style=3D'color:black'>

 

With MT approach, when two RBridges which had stations = talking to each other and one of them is converted to MT, then the communic= ation is broken. So it does not have backward computability.

&nbs= p;

Thanks

=

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
= Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To: Janardhanan Pathang= i Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi J= ana,

 

Let us assume that I have 20 = RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and all of t= hem need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridge= s to support active-active, does it mean that RBridges which are not yet co= nverted will not be able to anymore see the nodes connected to these virtua= l RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 <= span style=3D'color:black'>

ZMG> Although physical reachability can be all to all, it does= not mean than the end systems will really communicate in an all to all man= ner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give = you an example, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The ac= cess ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as the VLAN for end systems of the= Dept of Computer Science while the access ports of RB2 and RB4 are configu= red as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Literature. End systems = from the same department can talk with each other. But end systems from two= different departments will not talk with each other.

 

I am not sure if that is practical, and alwa= ys possible may depend on the nodes connected and also what controls are av= ailable on them

 <= o:p>

ZMG> Think abou= t it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a group of RBridges, he has = to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need enter the console windo= w to input the command line to configure parameters and start the LAG. He a= lso need to configure the tuple used for hashing.

 <= /span>

Thanks,

Mingui

 <= /span>

 

 

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan= [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.=

 

For the intra-topology scenario, = MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific topology other than the b= ased topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBri= dges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work very well among them. In thi= s scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exist in the same campus. The= refore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be deployed incrementally. Re= member, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 <= span style=3D'color:black'>

Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end system= s connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of the= m are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean tha= t RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the = nodes connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?<= /span>

 

For the inter-topology scenario, w= e assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware RBridges (This is a rig= orous assumption.) If operators do want to realize such kind of connection,= it is reasonable to assume they will accept the requirement that they need= to configure their hashing function to remove the possible MAC flip-flop.&= nbsp;

 

I am not sure if that is practical= , and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also what contr= ols are available on them

 

Thanks

Jana

<= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F= 497D'> 

=

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7= =A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbri= dge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.com]=
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5<= /span> 18:50
=B5=BD: Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0=B8=B4<= /span>: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<= span style=3D'color:black'>

Hi Jana, 

 

>= In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by= RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx? 

=  

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 t= alks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so i= t is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Patha= ngi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
=B5=BD<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'>: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'>: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG d= raft

Hi Mingui,=

 

Section = 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi dest= ination frames will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC m= ove, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the external= node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be classif= ied as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also cau= se frequent MAC flip flops etc.

 

In section 4.1, co= uld you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv00= 1 is received at RBx? =

 

Thanks

Jana=

 

 

From: Ming= ui Zhang [mailt= o:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:= 15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
= Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft

<= /div>

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft http://tools.ietf.= org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for t= he topic you are interested. As a starter draft on the RPFC using Multi-top= ology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

&nbs= p;

Thanks,

Mingui

<= /span>

= =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi N= arasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5=BD:<= /span> Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Sen= evirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology ca= se I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that a= ll the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges = which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like this will cause MAC= flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since all the other RBrid= ges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explain= how MT can work in such scenarios?=


Thanks

Jana

<= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F= 497D'> 

 <= /span>

From: rbridge-bounc= es@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Wa= tve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: = rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to W= G draft

 <= /p>

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know th= at resilience is one of the two main purposes of "aggregation". T= his dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way to do fast failur= e recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be re= computed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configurat= ion is necessary.

<= p>MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity tl= v goes down, the tree can be rooted at = the other Egress Rbridge ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding following to the comp= arison table

Number of New TLVs (and res= ulting complexity)

=

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple<= /p>

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@poste= l.org [= mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
Sent: W= ednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (= tsenevir)
Cc: rb= ridge@postel.org
Subject: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-0= 0 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solutio= n. There are three candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT a= nd MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them= in the following dimensions.=

1. Whether t= he solution is incrementally deploy-able.

= PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing s= ilicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is necessary= to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTR= A: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a &q= uot;YES".

<= span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black'>3. Multi-cast traffic up fr= om RBv can be load-balanced.<= /span>

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA= : YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv c= an be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.=

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We= know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of "aggregation&= quot;. This dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way to do fas= t failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link= .

PN: NO. The new distribution tree nee= d to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lists all above comparis= ons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I t= hink it deserves our follow-up.

+--------= +------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Dow= nwards|Fast Converge|<= /p>

+--------+----------= --+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|PN      |YES    &= nbsp;    |NO        = |NO        |NO    &= nbsp;     |NO       =     |

+--------+-----------= -+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|CMT     |NO     &n= bsp;    |YES        |YES&= nbsp;      |YES      = ;   |NO         &nbs= p; |

+--------+------------+-----------+--= --------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA=     |YES         |YE= S(will)  |YES       |YES  &nbs= p;      |YES      &n= bsp;   |

=

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui

 

= =B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel= .org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4= =FA=B1=ED Radia Per= lman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]=

= =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C2<= /span>28=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

= Cc: rbridge@postel.= org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-t= issa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

It is my understanding that

a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as the= re are active/active RBs on any link

 = ;

Of course, no solution is ideal.  I= t might have been nice to write up all the proposed solutions to this and p= ros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So f= rom memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/activ= e/active on a link:

 

First note: regardless of whether their port to the link = is in a tree, unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsulating unicast.

 =

Also, if Ri's port = to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for= that link when encapsulating=

multidestina= tion frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.<= /span>

 <= o:p>

Ho= wever, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees,

here were some of the proposed solutions.  So, let's= say that R1 and R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and = R3's

port to the link is not in any of the= trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame:

 

1) R3 could tun= nel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode = nickname) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on= the link; backwards compatible.  Con: more hops, might be difficult

in some implementations for R3 to forward b= y tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet.<= span style=3D'color:black'>

 

2) R3 cou= ld use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: = Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatibl= e.  Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on th= e pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast,

or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encap= sulate a multidestination frame from S).=

&= nbsp;

------

There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to wo= rk.

 

Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages = I mentioned above, but I can live with it.

 

Radia

 

<= /div>
<= /div>
= --_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD47114415B3EXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============0114660630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0114660630==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 03:12:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8E121F86B2 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 03:12:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.101 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jj-gQFL53pNr for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 03:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B81D21F856F for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 03:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U9kNGk004351; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [58.251.152.64]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2U9jTDW004219 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1O00D0DYZT6F@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:43:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1O00FAGYZKCT@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:43:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml211-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHX48156; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:43:04 +0800 Received: from SZXEML415-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.154) by szxeml211-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.182) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:42:54 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by szxeml415-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.154]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:43:00 +0800 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 09:42:59 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIENhbGwgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXRpc3NhLXRyaWxsLWNt?= =?gb2312?Q?t-00_to_WG_draft?= In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.67] To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0D09@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3CAAUvIPoAAP81cgAAoPaCAACBD3IAAtGNggAAT3tCAAA2IQIAAAkK2gAADovD///9TQYAAHoYggAAAUQQ= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B20@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B7F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB0B9C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Jana,

When you say CMT disappears, I am assuming you mean = that we will have to do tunneling for all multi-destination frames. Much th= e same as what we would have to do with MT when one non-MT RBridge exists. 

ZMG> Not exactly. In CMT, even you do not need to communicate with = non-CMT RBridges, the CMT cannot be used if non-CMT RBridges exist in the c= ampus. Non-CMT RBridges even cannot appear as transit RBridges. As you know= , the trees will not be calculated according to the affinity TLV by these RBridges. 

Thanks,
Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi= Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 17:36
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

 

The tunneling is only f= or multi-destination frames and not for unicast frames. Hence not sure what= you are referring to here as tunneling based on egress RBridge.

 

When you say CMT disapp= ears, I am assuming you mean that we will have to do tunneling for all mult= i-destination frames. Much the same as what we would have to do with MT when one non-MT RBridge exists.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui= Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:26 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4= =F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

The beauty of MTRA is that= aggregated members can determine themselves whether to use tunneling or no= t according to the egress RBridges. For MT egress RBridges, they need not do tunneling.

 

As long as there is only o= ne old RBridge in the campus, CMT does not work. In order to be backward co= mpatible using tunneling, CMT just simply disappears totally. There is no CMT anymore. 

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 15:48
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Minghi,

 

With tunneling all appr= oaches are backward compatible, including CMT.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:14 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

Have you forgotten the tun= neling approach? In order to enable the communication between MTRA RBridges= and non-MT RBridges, we can always resort to the tunneling approach to redirect the aggregated traffic to the only parent of RBv on t= he distribution tree of the base topology for delivery. 

 

I did not mention tunnelin= g since I like simple solutions. I think Section 4.2 of my draft did offer = another simpler solution to allow us to enable the communication between MRTA RBridges and non-MT RBridges. I insist on this solution until= operators tell me it is not workable.

 

So, of course MRTA is back= ward compatible. 

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 15:30
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui

 

  When you realize= active-active, you are asking for the active-active to be setup in a new t= opology and not the base topology. So these nodes which need to talk to the other nodes which are behind non-MT RBridges cannot do so a= ny more.

 

  Specifically for= MT to be backward compatible, you need all nodes which want to talk to eac= h other part of the base topology. If you do that you cannot realize active-active. If you put the active-active in a new topology, tha= n they can no longer talk to nodes on the base topology of non-MT RBridges.=

 

So yes, MT-TRILL is bac= kward compatible for base topology, but the realization of active-active wi= th MT =A8C TRILL is not backward compatible. That was the point I was bringing up.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

All RBridges in the campus= are in the base topology. MT RBridges can well communicate with non-MT RBr= idges using the base topology. 

 

I feel that you are arguin= g that MT-TRILL is not backward compatible. That is a incorrect judgem= ent.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 13:29
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

With MT approach, when = two RBridges which had stations talking to each other and one of them is co= nverted to MT, then the communication is broken. So it does not have backward computability.

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 12:27 AM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

Let us assume that I have = 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and all o= f them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBridges whic= h are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes connected= to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

ZMG> Although physical = reachability can be all to all, it does not mean than the end systems will = really communicate in an all to all manner. It is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you an example, RB1, = RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The access ports of RB1 and= RB3 are configured as the VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Computer Sci= ence while the access ports of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Lite= rature. End systems from the same department can talk with each other. But = end systems from two different departments will not talk with each other.

 

I am not sure if that is p= ractical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also wh= at controls are available on them=

 

ZMG> Think about it. Wh= en an operator have a LAG connected to a group of RBridges, he has to decid= e which port to plug the cables in. He need enter the console window to input the command line to configure parameters and start the LAG= . He also need to configure the tuple used for hashing.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 0:49
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.

 

For the intra-topology sce= nario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific topology other tha= n the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work ve= ry well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exi= st in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be = deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I ha= ve 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and al= l of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBr= idges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes= connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

For the inter-topology sce= nario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware RBridges (This = is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the r= equirement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the= possible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sure if that i= s practical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also= what controls are available on them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.co= m]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C229=C8=D5 18:50
=B5= =BD: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0= =B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tri= ll-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 

>In section 4.1, cou= ld you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001= is received at RBx? 

 

Two scenarios are given in= Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx = is not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.<= /span>

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 22:52
=B5= =BD: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not giv= e backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames = will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the extern= al node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be class= ified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also c= ause frequent MAC flip flops etc.=

 

In section 4.1, could y= ou please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is = received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer yo= ur question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft&= nbsp;http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-= topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on= the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5= =BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
=D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology c= ase I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that = all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like t= his will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since a= ll the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explai= n how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@= postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need re= configuration. If one Rbridge advertiz= ing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be root= ed at the other Egress Rbr= idge ID advertizing affinity tlv.=

Also, consider addin= g following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (= and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-= ----
From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to l= ist the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions= for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBri= dge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solutio= n is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing s= ilicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is= necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-= flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. Bu= t after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic = up from RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic = down to RBv can be load-balanced.=

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on= failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes = of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution o= ffers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distri= bution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-= configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table li= sts all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). M= TRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

|Solution|Incre-Deploy= |Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|PN   &= nbsp;  |YES         |NO &= nbsp;       |NO     =    |NO          |NO&= nbsp;          |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|CMT   =   |NO          |YES =        |YES     &nbs= p; |YES         |NO  &nbs= p;        |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|=

|MTRA   = ; |YES         |YES(will)  |YE= S       |YES     &nb= sp;   |YES          = |

+--------+----= --------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------&= #43;

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=B7=A2= =BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= : 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tiss= a Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re= : [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

It is my understanding= that

a) CMT does require ch= anging all the RBs in the campus<= /p>

b) CMT requires there = be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link=

 

Of course, no solution= is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solut= ions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other= proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link= :

 

First note: regardless= of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they ca= n use the pseudonode

nickname when encapsul= ating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to = the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for th= at link when encapsulating

multidestination frame= s for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port = to the link is not in any of the trees,<= /span>

here were some of the = proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared= link is in at least one tree, and R3's<= /span>

port to the link is no= t in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame= :

 

1) R3 could tunnel it = to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nicknam= e) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: mor= e hops, might be difficult

in some implementation= s for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tun= neled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its ow= n nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect an= y RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC= learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning chan= ges of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever = S sends unicast,

or multicast through R= 1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination fra= me from S).

 

------

There might have been = some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't lo= ve the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I = can live with it.

 

Radia

 

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(HELO ?130.129.22.61?) (pbs:robert@raszuk.net@130.129.22.61) by mail1310.opentransfer.com with ESMTPM; 30 Mar 2012 10:26:05 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 130.129.22.61 Message-ID: <4F758A41.5050108@raszuk.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:26:09 +0200 From: Robert Raszuk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312 Thunderbird/11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rbridge@postel.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: robert@raszuk.net Subject: [rbridge] TRILL to TRILL connectivity X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert@raszuk.net List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Hi, IMHO both below draft is in this group charter. Perhaps it's name should be changed to satisfy some comments during WG meeting. 10 min. TRILL Data Center Interconnect, Sam Aldrin draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect-00.txt Reg point of charter ... First sentence says: "The TRILL WG has specified a solution for shortest-path frame routing in multi-hop IEEE 802.1-compliant Ethernet networks with arbitrary topologies, using an existing link-state routing protocol technology and encapsulation with a hop count." My definition of "arbitrary topology" does not exclude data center topologies. What is so special of data center network from any other type of network TRILL is "authorized" to run on ? Regards, R. _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 12:15:13 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB0F21F86D6 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:15:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.377 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.377 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Eiw7FJdLece1 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA8121F86C5 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2UInoaY028874; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2UInBKj028787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so2123334obb.39 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:49:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=zCgwT12Vs1IBSd9VFiqZ8h/3i49c8xenidhG9hNI/oo=; b=e3b/p1b8fAqj0VVLpHI3aHWtzUVgikTvKm0Pq38zseqwexGcLd+2gZKoKICCe7zIPx VOTCxkTbTJGIamR12slPooaSoFwEfD3WsqemlPcmTmH0yq0wMqXMwgc57kUmOC1pmPR1 Ms6IrKyvvqouDQE5m+duyKwbae36yHHMAxU/pyfkl35W1uYT00DT0U4lF6pstb7J7d1Y rq1sR+Bj/aCWWbINOOFQxMZ6iFzLG3vMt8HyMJ8L+iaAY7c97UzFYNfO06IVR9HswFTv RAhQ2DtPqGkSb25rL1P0oPaNGG2DOGlJVh3FOuCwxxnJ6dcBVYTj2crRE+3Vni2U8Ljt AOMQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.89.36 with SMTP id bl4mr4351393obb.33.1333133349785; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.134.73 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:49:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4F758A41.5050108@raszuk.net> References: <4F758A41.5050108@raszuk.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:49:09 -0700 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: robert@raszuk.net X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] TRILL to TRILL connectivity X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1963480137==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1963480137== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5555120c090d804bc7a4b35 --bcaec5555120c090d804bc7a4b35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Robert, Arbitrary topology includes all topologies but is not limited to the 2-tier/ 3-tier topology as defined for Data Centers. The differences in DC topology is because of a symmetric nature of the topology - notice various proposals where we can do DC routing without actually using a routing protocol (by using assumptions of topology like a Fat tree etc). >From our perspective DC interconnect is different in cases because we do not consolidate everything to one DC for Disaster Recovery. So the interconnect needs to have a way to isolate faults in one DC from another. For some purposes it could very well mean, using a different instance of the protocol for interconnect versus another. It is for that purpose we have defined a draft that leaves the options out, but allows the encapsulation of TRILL packets over Layer-3. Have a look at our draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xl-trill-over-wan-00 This is of course the first cut and we want to build it from here. Thanks, Vishwas On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 3:26 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi, > > IMHO both below draft is in this group charter. Perhaps it's name should > be changed to satisfy some comments during WG meeting. > > 10 min. TRILL Data Center Interconnect, Sam Aldrin > draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect-00.txt > > Reg point of charter ... > > First sentence says: > > "The TRILL WG has specified a solution for shortest-path frame > routing in multi-hop IEEE 802.1-compliant Ethernet networks with > arbitrary topologies, using an existing link-state routing protocol > technology and encapsulation with a hop count." > > My definition of "arbitrary topology" does not exclude data center > topologies. What is so special of data center network from any other > type of network TRILL is "authorized" to run on ? > > Regards, > R. > > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > --bcaec5555120c090d804bc7a4b35 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert,

Arbitrary topology includes all topologies but is not lim= ited to the 2-tier/ 3-tier topology as defined for Data Centers. The differ= ences in DC topology is because of a symmetric nature of the topology - not= ice various proposals where we can do DC routing without actually using a r= outing protocol (by using assumptions of topology like a Fat tree etc).

From our perspective DC interconnect is different in cases because we d= o not consolidate everything to one DC for Disaster Recovery. So the interc= onnect needs to have a way to isolate faults in one DC from another. For so= me purposes it could very well mean, using a different instance of the prot= ocol for interconnect versus another. It is for that purpose we have define= d a draft that leaves the options out, but allows the encapsulation of TRIL= L packets over Layer-3.

Have a look at our draft:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xl-trill-over-wan-= 00

This is of course the first cut and we want to build it from = here.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 30, 20= 12 at 3:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi,

IMHO both below draft is in this group charter. Perhaps it's name shoul= d
be changed to satisfy some comments during WG meeting.

10 min. =A0TRILL Data Center Interconnect, Sam Aldrin
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0draft-aldrin-trill-data-center-interconnect-00.txt

Reg point of charter ...

First sentence says:

"The TRILL WG has specified a solution for shortest-path frame
routing in multi-hop IEEE 802.1-compliant Ethernet networks with
arbitrary topologies, using an existing link-state routing protocol
technology and encapsulation with a hop count."

My definition of "arbitrary topology" does not exclude data cente= r
topologies. What is so special of data center network from any other
type of network TRILL is "authorized" to run on ?

Regards,
R.



_______________________________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

--bcaec5555120c090d804bc7a4b35-- --===============1963480137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1963480137==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Fri Mar 30 14:33:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A7921F8650 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.143 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.143 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.069, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PseqKFBrQin6 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40D621F864F for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2UL5UdY019654; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f180.google.com (mail-yx0-f180.google.com [209.85.213.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2UL4uuS019588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenl4 with SMTP id l4so917003yen.39 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:04:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:references:from:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :in-reply-to:message-id:date:cc:to:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=tvXitxZ06budh8fWCUdAeOW+xvyaKvxFapHIQ2NZF8w=; b=iY188m7TD5tD8xk7uyq0yEYn0Ka7y/XmymghLBSKW8rPoxfn8GML/Cf5IWGJCqeZ4k u3qxM3MOnqqJnI0tTvPtLz+2Rtqh4/JJ6ESLfMgXi1fZ7FPEofGcf2aQXy/J6SFlj/Ap 9fGOzzmJy+9KDH27f1d8vW3dc3hS+jCZtDw0qkAqIMNhJPrTd91N4Ujy+l+szyNeXDQt 5eXjDrAa9MRciwGP9GNGeGkvcV7CM7feOWrQBoTN6ceHSOq8phCvOtPnNzxxQglwEdDl /nv8IYpQjEY//9C2q5JdAh/ztDlfRn6ObO6sbgDzYORG0lwq8ETokJp66357P9jXyjxY Qy6A== Received: by 10.68.195.169 with SMTP id if9mr536783pbc.68.1333141495457; Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.17.99.24] ([166.205.137.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y8sm8114408pbg.43.2012.03.30.14.04.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D:_[rbridge]_Call_for_draft-tissa?= =?utf-8?Q?-trill-cmt-00_to_WG_draft?= References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE77F@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB086C@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: Jon Hudson In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CB099E@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> Message-Id: <0AA2AFF7-87AE-4300-9DC2-784A22C628DC@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:56:03 +0200 To: Mingui Zhang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B176) X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jon.hudson@gmail.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" , Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0478304954==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0478304954== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9575E064-0CAB-4DD9-8AEA-236A2E6B43EE --Apple-Mail-9575E064-0CAB-4DD9-8AEA-236A2E6B43EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 If I may make one minor point, the last statement is not correct.=20 > ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a group of R= Bridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need enter th= e console window to input the command line to configure parameters and start= the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used for hashing. I know of two solutions (one shipping) where default hash parameters are set= and where any two cables plugged into the same two RBridges will auto creat= e a LAG. Not directly pertinent to the conversation at hand, but manual input is not a= given. Zero-config is the goal for many of us. Just a side note. Jon On Mar 29, 2012, at 8:56 PM, Mingui Zhang wrote: > Hi Jana, >=20 > Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems= connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them a= re converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RB= ridges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes= connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here? >=20 > ZMG> Although physical reachability can be all to all, it does not mean th= an the end systems will really communicate in an all to all manner. It is re= stricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you an example= , RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The access ports of R= B1 and RB3 are configured as the VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Compute= r Science while the access ports of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VL= AN for end systems of the Dept of Literature. End systems from the same depa= rtment can talk with each other. But end systems from two different departme= nts will not talk with each other. >=20 > I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on the n= odes connected and also what controls are available on them >=20 > ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a group of R= Bridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need enter th= e console window to input the command line to configure parameters and start= the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used for hashing. >=20 > Thanks, > Mingui >=20 >=20 >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10= networks.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8830=E6=97=A5 0= :49 > =E5=88=B0: Mingui Zhang > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG d= raft >=20 > Hi Mingui, > =20 > I am slightly confused. > =20 > For the intra-topology scenario, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a s= pecific topology other than the based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridge= s only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can wo= rk very well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co= -exist in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can b= e deployed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployme= nt. > =20 > Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems= connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of them a= re converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RB= ridges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes= connected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here? > =20 > For the inter-topology scenario, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with= MT unaware RBridges (This is a rigorous assumption.) If operators do want t= o realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will acc= ept the requirement that they need to configure their hashing function to re= move the possible MAC flip-flop.=20 > =20 > I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on the n= odes connected and also what controls are available on them > =20 > Thanks > Jana > =20 > Thanks, > Mingui > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@p= ostel.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 1= 8:50 > =E5=88=B0: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tri= ll-cmt-00 to WG draft >=20 > Hi Jana,=20 > =20 > >In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingressed b= y RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?=20 > =20 > Two scenarios are given in Section 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-to= pology scenario. Here, RBx is not in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1.= It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx. > =20 > Thanks, > Mingui > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10= networks.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 2= 2:52 > =E5=88=B0: Mingui Zhang > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG d= raft >=20 > Hi Mingui, > =20 > Section 4, does not give backward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 m= ulti destination frames will be ingressed with two different bridge ID causi= ng MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the e= xternal node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be c= lassified as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can als= o cause frequent MAC flip flops etc. > =20 > In section 4.1, could you please explain how the frame that is ingressed b= y RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx? > =20 > Thanks > Jana > =20 > =20 > From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM > To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 t= o WG draft > =20 > Hi Jana, > =20 > I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Zhang. > Please refer to the draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-mul= ti-topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a s= tarter draft on the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive yo= ur comments. > =20 > Thanks, > Mingui > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10= networks.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 1= 9:14 > =E5=88=B0: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevi= rathne (tsenevir) > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG d= raft >=20 > Hi Zhai, > =20 > In the Multi-topology case I am not sure what is meant by incrementally de= ployable. Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT e= xcept for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks li= ke this will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues sinc= e all the other RBridges do not understand MT. > =20 > Could you please explain how MT can work in such scenarios? >=20 > Thanks > Jana > =20 > =20 > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Be= half Of Rohit Watve (rwatve) > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM > To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft > =20 > Hi Mingui, >=20 > 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of= the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether th= e solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure o= f an aggregated RBridge or link. >=20 > PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. >=20 > CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. >=20 > MTRA: YES. >=20 > CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity tlv= goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID advertizin= g affinity tlv. >=20 > Also, consider adding following to the comparison table >=20 > Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity) >=20 > PN: 3 >=20 > CMT: 1 >=20 > MTRA: multiple >=20 > Thanks > Rohit >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Be= half Of Mingui Zhang > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM > To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) > Cc: rbridge@postel.org > Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 t= o WG draft >=20 > Hi Radia, >=20 > It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are th= ree candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-T= opology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following= dimensions. >=20 > 1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able. >=20 > PN: YES. >=20 > CMT: NO. >=20 > MTRA: YES. >=20 > 2. Use only existing silicons. >=20 > PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addres= ses may flip-flop. >=20 > CMT: YES. >=20 > MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a= "YES". >=20 > 3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced. >=20 > PN: NO. >=20 > CMT: YES. >=20 > MTRA: YES. >=20 > 4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced. >=20 > PN: NO. >=20 > CMT: YES. >=20 > MTRA: YES. >=20 > 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of= the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether th= e solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure o= f an aggregated RBridge or link. >=20 > PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. >=20 > CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. >=20 > MTRA: YES. >=20 > The following table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also att= ached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.= >=20 > +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+ >=20 > |Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge| >=20 > +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------| >=20 > |PN |YES |NO |NO |NO |NO | >=20 > +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------| >=20 > |CMT |NO |YES |YES |YES |NO | >=20 > +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------| >=20 > |MTRA |YES |YES(will) |YES |YES |YES | >=20 > +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+ >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Mingui >=20 > =20 >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@p= ostel.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com] >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 1= 2:52 >=20 > =E5=88=B0: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) >=20 > Cc: rbridge@postel.org >=20 > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG d= raft >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > It is my understanding that >=20 > a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus >=20 > b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are active/active= RBs on any link >=20 > =20 >=20 > Of course, no solution is ideal. It might have been nice to write up all t= he proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's >=20 > still worth doing. >=20 > =20 >=20 > So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/= active/active on a link: >=20 > =20 >=20 > First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, uni= cast works, and they can use the pseudonode >=20 > nickname when encapsulating unicast. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pse= udonode nickname for that link when encapsulating >=20 > multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without a= ny problems. >=20 > =20 >=20 > However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees, >=20 > here were some of the proposed solutions. So, let's say that R1 and R2's p= ort to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's >=20 > port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a= multidestination frame: >=20 > =20 >=20 > 1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (= with pseudonode nickname) into the campus. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards com= patible. Con: more hops, might be difficult >=20 > in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult= for R2 to accept a tunneled packet. >=20 > =20 >=20 > 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in thi= s case >=20 > =20 >=20 > Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards com= patible. Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have >=20 > frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the pseudon= ode nickname (whenever S sends unicast, >=20 > or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate= a multidestination frame from S). >=20 > =20 >=20 > ------ >=20 > There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.= >=20 > =20 >=20 > Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I m= entioned above, but I can live with it. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Radia >=20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --Apple-Mail-9575E064-0CAB-4DD9-8AEA-236A2E6B43EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
If I may make one minor po= int, the last statement is not correct. 

ZMG> Think about it. Whe= n an operator have a LAG connected to a group of RBridges, he has to decide w= hich port to plug the cables in. He need enter the console window to input t= he command line to configure parameters and start the LAG. He also need to c= onfigure the tuple used for hashing.

I know of two solutions (one shipping) where default= hash parameters are set and where any two cables plugged into the same two R= Bridges will auto create a LAG.

Not dir= ectly pertinent to the conversation at hand, but manual input is not a given= . Zero-config is the goal for many of us.

Just a side note.

Jon

On Mar 29, 2012, at 8:56 PM, Mingui Zhang <zhangmingui@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Jana,

Let us assume that I have 20 RBridges in the campus which have end syst= ems connected to it, and all of them need to be reachable. So if a few of th= em are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean tha= t RBridges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes connected to these virt= ual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

ZMG> Although physical reachability can be all to all, it does not m= ean than the end systems will really communicate in an all to all manner. It= is restricted by the VLAN configuration of the campus. Let me give you an e= xample, RB1, RB2, RB3 and RB4 have an all to all connection. The access ports of RB1 and RB3 are configured as= the VLAN for end systems of the Dept of Computer Science while the access p= orts of RB2 and RB4 are configured as another VLAN for end systems of the De= pt of Literature. End systems from the same department can talk with each other. But end systems from two= different departments will not talk with each other.

I am not sure if that is practical, and always possible may depend on t= he nodes connected and also what controls are available on them

ZMG> Think about it. When an operator have a LAG connected to a grou= p of RBridges, he has to decide which port to plug the cables in. He need en= ter the console window to input the command line to configure parameters and= start the LAG. He also need to configure the tuple used for hashing.

Thanks,
Mingui



=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Janardhanan P= athangi Narasimhan [jana@force10= networks.com]
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8830=E6=97= =A5 0:49
=E5=88=B0: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 t= o WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

I am slightly confused.

 

For the intra-topology scena= rio, MT unaware RBridges will not appear in a specific topology other than t= he based topology. In other words, MTRA RBridges only talks only with MTRA RBridges. Since they all support MT, MTRA can work ver= y well among them. In this scenario, MTRA RBridges and old RBridges co-exist= in the same campus. Therefore, this is a solid example that MTRA can be dep= loyed incrementally. Remember, CMT does not allow such kind of deployment.

 

Let us assume that I have= 20 RBridges in the campus which have end systems connected to it, and all o= f them need to be reachable. So if a few of them are converted to MTRA RBridges to support active-active, does it mean that RBri= dges which are not yet converted will not be able to anymore see the nodes c= onnected to these virtual RBridges? Or am I missing something here?

 

For the inter-topology scena= rio, we assume MTRA RBridges have to talk with MT unaware RBridges (This is a= rigorous assumption.) If operators do want to realize such kind of connection, it is reasonable to assume they will accept the re= quirement that they need to configure their hashing function to remove the p= ossible MAC flip-flop. 

 

I am not sure if that is p= ractical, and always possible may depend on the nodes connected and also wha= t controls are available on them

 

Thanks

Jana

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= : rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org [rbridge-bo= unces@postel.org] =E4=BB=A3= =E8=A1=A8 Mingui Zhang [zhangmingui@huawei.com]
=E5=8F= =91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">=E6=9C=88= 29=E6=97=A5 18:50
=E5=88= =B0: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@p= ostel.org
=E4=B8= =BB=E9=A2=98: =E7=AD=94= =E5=A4=8D: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-tr= ill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Jana, 

 

>In section 4.1, could= you please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is= received at RBx? 

 

Two scenarios are given in S= ection 4. Section 4.1 talks about the intra-topology scenario. Here, RBx is n= ot in topology 1 so it is unreachable by RB1. It need not set up any forwarding path to RBx.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=E5=8F= =91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">=E6=9C=88= 28=E6=97=A5 22:52
=E5=88= =B0: Mingui Zhang
Cc: rbridge@p= ostel.org
=E4=B8= =BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Mingui,

 

Section 4, does not give b= ackward compatibility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames will= be ingressed with two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrictions on hashing functions at the externa= l node may or may not be acceptable . I am not sure that this can be classif= ied as backward compatible since it is not a full solution and can also caus= e frequent MAC flip flops etc.

=

 

In section 4.1, could you= please explain how the frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is rec= eived at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@p= ostel.org
Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [rbridge] Call f= or draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Jana,

 

I think I should answer your= question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft&nb= sp;http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo= -rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are interested. As a starter draft on t= he RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= : Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=E5=8F= =91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">=E6=9C=88= 28=E6=97=A5 19:14
=E5=88= =B0: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<= br> Cc: rbridge@p= ostel.org
=E4=B8= =BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology cas= e I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that all= the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like th= is will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since all= the other RBridges do not understand MT.=

 

Could you please explain h= ow MT can work in such scenarios?<= /p>


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@p= ostel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<= /span>

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on f= ailure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of "= aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way to d= o fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distrib= ution tree need to be recomputed.<= /p>

CMT: NO. A overall re-c= onfiguration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need rec= onfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizi= ng affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be roote= d at the other Egress Rbri= dge ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding= following to the comparison table=

Number of New TLVs (a= nd resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple=

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message--= ---
From: rbridg= e-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui Zha= ng
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.o= rg
Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to li= st the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions f= or the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge= Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solution= is incrementally deploy-able.

=

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing si= licons.

PN: NO. New silicon is n= ecessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-flop.<= span style=3D"color:black">

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But= after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic u= p from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic d= own to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on f= ailure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of "= aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way to d= o fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distrib= ution tree need to be recomputed.<= /p>

CMT: NO. A overall re-c= onfiguration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lis= ts all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). MTR= A is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|= Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|PN   &n= bsp;  |YES         |NO &nb= sp;       |NO     &nb= sp;  |NO          |NO = ;          |

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|CMT   &= nbsp; |NO          |YES &n= bsp;      |YES       |= YES         |NO   &nb= sp;       |=

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA   = |YES         |YES(will)  |YES&= nbsp;      |YES      =    |YES          |

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui

 

=E5=8F=91= =E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:= rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org [rbridge-bo= unces@postel.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=E5=8F=91= =E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2012=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 12:52

=E5=88=B0: Tis= sa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:= Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft






It is my understanding t= hat

a) CMT does require cha= nging all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there b= e at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link

 

Of course, no solution i= s ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solution= s to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other p= roposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link:

 

First note: regardless o= f whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can u= se the pseudonode

nickname when encapsula= ting unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to t= he link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for that= link when encapsulating

multidestination frames= for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port t= o the link is not in any of the trees,

here were some of the p= roposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared l= ink is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the link is not= in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame:<= /span>

 

1) R3 could tunnel it t= o one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nickname)= into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any= RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: more h= ops, might be difficult

in some implementations= for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tunne= led packet.

 

2) R3 could use its own= nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any= RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC l= earning in distant RBs will have

frequent learning chang= es of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S s= ends unicast,

or multicast through R1= or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame= from S).

 

------

There might have been s= ome other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't lov= e the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I ca= n live with it.

 

Radia

 

____________________= ___________________________
rbridge mailing list
<= span>rbridge@postel.org
= http://= mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge
= --Apple-Mail-9575E064-0CAB-4DD9-8AEA-236A2E6B43EE-- --===============0478304954== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0478304954==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 31 03:30:50 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D35F21F870F for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:30:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.682 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.682 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.916, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CaDYIDXfb5XK for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C090D21F86F2 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VA6IMH001232; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VA5kN9001182 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so2865995lah.39 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:05:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=HMoJOki4NxBYfMrvB6MetgmGjCNbtwOdNjqX8cdFyOw=; b=vyN5HZK+yikokrUN0fWX2aqwo5TGA9In03knWdHYcHeS4n0tKf7bGAd0V3TJ9EFkR1 +kjTvLlmj9gq/7pYYZIBNGzgvQ+JniPG6UwnGKA1NjAtJDrhJ7/473uYvAkXleLWhaIe Df2NCGXIP7xfY36/X4MRsHy8alyydvQiKu+ICJnF7Ajmvczrh4tMoq904ar1/xoVT3Tu 1f/x4BlfLtYSRPGzra1xuvijtwyqc5DWUAcNiNz29U2GYLJ6LD44L0uYcXWUA+XVZy4Y 3gYkCb65Bp/degC/6wxCvtrkakPlWonITfJMpxYk6wL0JsH/6ZfoHWuHNLdkAL1nEn2m 9BfA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.147.100 with SMTP id tj4mr656538lab.39.1333188345228; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.130.197 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:05:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7A958C02-3E5F-4F18-8BCB-3A63F76D8E18@gmail.com> References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5AD91C2@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <7A958C02-3E5F-4F18-8BCB-3A63F76D8E18@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 03:05:45 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jon Hudson To: Sam Aldrin , "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jon.hudson@gmail.com Cc: Vishwas Manral , "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] draft-tissa-trill-oam-03 : ICMP vs RFC 4379 message channel X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2039775657==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============2039775657== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f22bd89bc6bad04bc87197b --e89a8f22bd89bc6bad04bc87197b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP is that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is used. On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin wrote: > Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a > programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will > be klugy, and have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: > had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible > hardware in the network. > Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will help > immensely in adopting the standard. > > Cheers > Sam > > Sent from my iPad > > On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral > wrote: > > Hi Tissa, > > I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS > OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. > > On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing > real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels > should be good too. > > My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats > when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason > that BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) > irrespective of the lower layer protocol. > > Thanks, > Vishwas > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) < > tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote: > >> Dear All**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC 4884. >> I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel defined >> in RFC 4379.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework >> and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to >> define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should >> use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP >> port.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that >> is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 >> extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual >> submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the >> other ?**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Thanks**** >> >> Tissa**** >> >> > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge > > -- "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." --e89a8f22bd89bc6bad04bc87197b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP = is that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this = is the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is= used.=A0

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin = <aldrin.ietf@= gmail.com> wrote:
Do not have much preference of reusing the sa= me port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it'= s implementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when process is/was imp= lemented in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd,= due to incompatible hardware in the network.
Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will = help immensely in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br>
Hi Tissa,

I am no= t sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and = UDP based TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testin= g real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels = should be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats= when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason th= at BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irre= spective of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 201= 2 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com>= wrote:

Dear All

=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions = defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messag= ing channel defined in RFC 4379.

=A0

Advantag= e of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM ch= allenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sa= me wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.

=A0

Advantag= e of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is common= ly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-= traceroute-ping-ext-04.

=A0

Would li= ke to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

=A0

Thanks

Tissa



=
_______________________________________________
= rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

______________________________________= _________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do= not lie. And do not do what you hate."

--e89a8f22bd89bc6bad04bc87197b-- --===============2039775657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============2039775657==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 31 12:14:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7E921F86F2 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:14:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.196, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SFQt4st2jxUh for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B8021F86F1 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VInGw3008427; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VImWvG008084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so3702653obb.39 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:48:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=abCx4R2JFxeLHkYdRBA/UGKBzxHb+PWcFKtEOkMhEnA=; b=EFYrkzvllzLp3lAEG9OyPAxb5C4OTBN94Ex38vZDZanC+IJPesGCoOFbo70Ot5pidS A1m9HgnPkkQPCUUcTCrd5JZWgLJh9LHyDlzxuUFBdu5jSzk2xmEDvV8fQNvguymbmOa3 TuCq1UBsk/jU+X8TnNKeXrK9NIH9HAcjh4uSVjbJ/7fu6HtwDhaZF6C50c4NbXJT27KO qja+YU1CDZ18RmJzHkxTm3OHr4D6AKxPNGnC3ZvIDqxGzsAmw8Gu7EZsx6DdcQk57S0Q BvoAS/qIn493WrQePOPvzg3G1HK/3f7y48Xbj+4hTz9gGD98lkD189ytQ1pEpxVjLwJV j7Sw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.4.162 with SMTP id l2mr4014622oel.3.1333219711826; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.134.73 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:48:31 -0700 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: Jon Hudson X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: Sam Aldrin , "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: [rbridge] OAM direction X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0187405496==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0187405496== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1c5ae54bc6904bc8e6700 --e89a8ff1c5ae54bc6904bc8e6700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Jon, Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM design: 1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be independent of the lower layer. 2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a TRILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent IP/ ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to similar data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic is able to monitor traffic directly over Ethernet. 3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute. Do let me know if this sounds reasonable? Thanks, Vishwas On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson wrote: > > The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP is that it can > be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is the same for > ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is used. > > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin wrote: > >> Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a >> programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will >> be klugy, and have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: >> had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible >> hardware in the network. >> Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will >> help immensely in adopting the standard. >> >> Cheers >> Sam >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral >> wrote: >> >> Hi Tissa, >> >> I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS >> OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. >> >> On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing >> real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels >> should be good too. >> >> My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats >> when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason >> that BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) >> irrespective of the lower layer protocol. >> >> Thanks, >> Vishwas >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) < >> tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear All**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC >>> 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel >>> defined in RFC 4379.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework >>> and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to >>> define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should >>> use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP >>> port.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure >>> that is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 >>> extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual >>> submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the >>> other ?**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Thanks**** >>> >>> Tissa**** >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >> >> > > > -- > "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." > > --e89a8ff1c5ae54bc6904bc8e6700 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jon,

Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM desi= gn:

1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be in= dependent of the lower layer.

2. As we know we already run OAM over= all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP or any thing else, so as to be able to = replicate real world traffic.In a TRILL network, we can already run traffic= / OAM end to end. So if we sent IP/ ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to= -end, it would work similar to similar data traffic already. What is most r= equired is how the OAM traffic is able to monitor traffic directly over Eth= ernet.

3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets i= n the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute= .

Do let me know if this sounds reasonable?

Thanks,
Vishw= as

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson = <jon.hudson@gm= ail.com> wrote:

The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP = is that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this = is the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is= used.=A0


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin = <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Do not have much preference of reusing the sa= me port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it'= s implementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when process is/was imp= lemented in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd,= due to incompatible hardware in the network.
Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will = help immensely in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br>
Hi Tissa,

I am no= t sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and = UDP based TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testin= g real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels = should be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats= when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason th= at BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irre= spective of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 201= 2 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com>= wrote:

Dear All

=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions = defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messag= ing channel defined in RFC 4379.

=A0

Advantag= e of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM ch= allenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sa= me wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.

=A0

Advantag= e of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is common= ly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-= traceroute-ping-ext-04.

=A0

Would li= ke to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

=A0

Thanks

Tissa



__= _____________________________________________
rbridge maili= ng list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

______________________________________= _________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do not lie. And do= not do what you hate."


--e89a8ff1c5ae54bc6904bc8e6700-- --===============0187405496== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0187405496==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 31 13:19:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A738021F86F7 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:19:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AgUo3BdnW0nl for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF4A21F86F1 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VJxuQp017256; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com (mail-wi0-f180.google.com [209.85.212.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VJxG3t017186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhm17 with SMTP id hm17so1351075wib.3 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:59:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=tTH5KBz3KtM5ERaglt5TmsXOiB92yoW2DIiy/ldepK8=; b=bKKfLEIlEBe5BUBQGWVwVcQWXwcBa+KfPGk7Lp5+ySE7zUJsEX82qwKcCrYSHDe0eb WEWs0MZ4wQAimxjAnTTFGU2qVmq1L4thnSvjV9Uu0rWooyfW5sr8YI7ZD0BAaN2OS41h gk5p8wRgLvg+gQYDNnkAqWBptL0DbHYfPdRyVMtoYDVhdoy/56Y3eePJULzLlCaitjAn iLb+IXlCyYYCCnX6hali8xIxf7q36z9rkxoh3dl+A0STx/uBirH7K0aQIpCPu6zt+H7v LIeGUXV1Uq3YzvoBClFna4Ps56ABV4r8fvpCAODo/JM90Ush3wxTNEu+SGa3b3EhDGj5 B9Tw== Received: by 10.180.103.35 with SMTP id ft3mr8963801wib.0.1333223955339; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.216.6.209] ([93.158.47.252]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n15sm18886874wiw.6.2012.03.31.12.59.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:59:13 -0700 (PDT) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B176) From: Sam Aldrin Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:59:10 +0200 To: Vishwas Manral X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , "rbridge@postel.org" , Jon Hudson Subject: Re: [rbridge] OAM direction X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0005579190==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0005579190== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-0E8BC973-CC56-4437-8B1B-8D5796AEB327 --Apple-Mail-0E8BC973-CC56-4437-8B1B-8D5796AEB327 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All, Whatever tools one implements is left to ones choice. Be it ping or somethin= g else. I don't think we are disagreeing on that front at all. The effort we= put in here should make sure the framework supports all Oam aspects in Tril= l. Discussions we had focused on that aspects and resolved many issues, and c= larified why we do not have one, at present. Hopefully we put to rest, the c= onfusion, once we publish framework/requirements doc. Cheers Sam Sent from my iPhone On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > Hi Jon, >=20 > Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM design: >=20 > 1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be independent o= f the lower layer.=20 >=20 > 2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP o= r any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a TRIL= L network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent IP/ ICM= P ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to similar d= ata traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic is able to= monitor traffic directly over Ethernet. >=20 > 3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in t= he same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute.=20= >=20 > Do let me know if this sounds reasonable? >=20 > Thanks, > Vishwas >=20 > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson wrote: >=20 > The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP is that it can= be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is the same for= ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is used.=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin wrote:= > Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a progra= mmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will be klugy= , and have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: had issue w= ith vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible hardware in the n= etwork. > Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will help= immensely in adopting the standard. >=20 > Cheers > Sam >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral wrote= : >=20 >> Hi Tissa, >>=20 >> I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS= OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. >>=20 >> On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing r= eal application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels shou= ld be good too.=20 >>=20 >> My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats w= hen the application works over different layers. It is for that reason that B= FD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irrespect= ive of the lower layer protocol. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Vishwas >>=20 >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) wrote: >> Dear All >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC 4884.= I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel defined i= n RFC 4379. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework a= nd OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to d= efine new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use= the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.= >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that= is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 exten= sions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission dra= ft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the o= ther ? >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Thanks >>=20 >> Tissa >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rbridge mailing list > rbridge@postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-0E8BC973-CC56-4437-8B1B-8D5796AEB327 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi All,

Whatever tools one implements is left to ones choice. Be it ping or s= omething else. I don't think we are disagreeing on that front at all. The ef= fort we put in here should make sure the framework supports all Oam aspects i= n Trill. Discussions we had focused on that aspects and resolved many issues= , and clarified why we do not have one, at present. Hopefully we put to rest= , the confusion, once we publish framework/requirements doc.

<= /div>
Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPhone<= /div>

On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon,

Here are a few p= oints we need to take care for good OAM design:

1. The OAM packets sh= ould be defined as far as possible to be independent of the lower layer.
2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ I= P or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a T= RILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent IP/ I= CMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to similar= data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic is able t= o monitor traffic directly over Ethernet.

3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in= the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute. <= br>
Do let me know if this sounds reasonable?

Thanks,
Vishwas
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson <= span dir=3D"ltr"><jon.hudson@gmai= l.com> wrote:

The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP i= s that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is= the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is us= ed. 


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin <= span dir=3D"ltr"><aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Do not have much preference of reusing the sam= e port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's impl= ementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when process is/was implemente= d in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to i= ncompatible hardware in the network.
Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will h= elp immensely in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tissa,

I am not s= ure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and UDP b= ased TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing= real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels sh= ould be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats w= hen the application works over different layers. It is for that reason that B= FD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irrespect= ive of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012= at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote:

Dear All

 

=

Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions d= efined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messagin= g channel defined in RFC 4379.

 

Advant= age of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM c= hallenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sam= e wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.<= u>

 

Advant= age of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is commo= nly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-t= raceroute-ping-ext-04.

 

Would l= ike to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

 

Thanks

Tissa

=


___= ____________________________________________
rbridge mailing= list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

___________________________________________= ____
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do not lie. And do not do= what you hate."


= --Apple-Mail-0E8BC973-CC56-4437-8B1B-8D5796AEB327-- --===============0005579190== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0005579190==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 31 15:33:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C0721F877C for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:33:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.752 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.752 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.846, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R30lC8+joh-T for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4080121F8726 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VMEYMY003025; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VME8SX002983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi5 with SMTP id i5so3507605lah.39 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:14:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=kVNJcYbyCAwja2qrrtQz84hm6Tv/IZ3TBBQocgvKNvI=; b=O8Gpud4sGj6fRR0FYlMz+HgbSLe56nYpUsa0w9cWkVSj/O66nQSKJdq8PJ/y54OLya WDGpGvweSoTTA4VuBQ+pogSCd55eM1AUIWtLGuSEUF4CpLdNztVT98hQVDaX3RAorV37 miCS/X1cSbEUUx8MAca/KLNHM9vnc5gyztduoo525LzH14ie0oSQ7kHiFWbIg/kcrwW8 8hB9YhyFGTAZHVexahbfJChWzS9fuCQXpH0t7G07B8ch/3fpNrge0npB4j8ypCl70FCq Lk+DbqLSKD3Vv7dqwx6g1mhh2ZtseH6K74IDY8QaGNddDfdl/vdvC+mekOlgzfq/LUkO jE3w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.145.131 with SMTP id su3mr3575583lab.46.1333232047533; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.130.197 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:14:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:14:07 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jon Hudson To: Vishwas Manral X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jon.hudson@gmail.com Cc: Sam Aldrin , "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] OAM direction X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1587925050==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1587925050== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f234ab598af1e04bc91460f --e89a8f234ab598af1e04bc91460f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That's an interesting point Vishwas. I think I was too sleepy when I first read this. To be able to choose to run OAM over whatever layer I choose in TRILL would be highly desirable. So then what you are saying is that while the end goal is to support multiple options for OAM transport, for the sake of moving forward the goal should be to choose a simple direct example for the draft so that we have an example of ping and traceroute. Then the end goal would be the ability to perform OAM function over whatever transport was being tested in that case. Is that correct? On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM design: > > 1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be independent > of the lower layer. > > 2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP > or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a > TRILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent > IP/ ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to > similar data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic > is able to monitor traffic directly over Ethernet. > > 3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in > the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute. > > Do let me know if this sounds reasonable? > > Thanks, > Vishwas > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson wrote: > >> >> The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP is that it >> can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is the same >> for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is used. >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin wrote: >> >>> Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a >>> programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will >>> be klugy, and have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: >>> had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible >>> hardware in the network. >>> Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will >>> help immensely in adopting the standard. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Sam >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tissa, >>> >>> I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing >>> MPLS OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. >>> >>> On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing >>> real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels >>> should be good too. >>> >>> My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats >>> when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason >>> that BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) >>> irrespective of the lower layer protocol. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Vishwas >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) < >>> tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear All**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC >>>> 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel >>>> defined in RFC 4379.**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same >>>> framework and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, >>>> we need to define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether >>>> we should use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a >>>> different UDP port.**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure >>>> that is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 >>>> extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual >>>> submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over >>>> the other ?**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Thanks**** >>>> >>>> Tissa**** >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." >> >> > -- "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." --e89a8f234ab598af1e04bc91460f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That's an interesting point Vishwas. I think I was too s= leepy when I first read this. To be able to choose to run OAM over whatever= layer I choose in TRILL would be highly desirable.=A0

So then what you are saying is that while the end goal is to support multip= le options for OAM transport, for the sake of moving forward the goal shoul= d be to choose a simple direct example for the draft so that we have an exa= mple of ping and traceroute.=A0

Then the end goal would be the ability to perform OAM f= unction over whatever transport was being tested in that case.=A0

Is that correct?=A0

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>= wrote:
Hi Jon,

Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM desi= gn:

1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be in= dependent of the lower layer.

2. As we know we already run OAM over= all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP or any thing else, so as to be able to = replicate real world traffic.In a TRILL network, we can already run traffic= / OAM end to end. So if we sent IP/ ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to= -end, it would work similar to similar data traffic already. What is most r= equired is how the OAM traffic is able to monitor traffic directly over Eth= ernet.

3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets i= n the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute= .

Do let me know if this sounds reasonable?

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson = <jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP = is that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this = is the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is= used.=A0


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin = <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Do not have much preference of reusing the sa= me port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it'= s implementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when process is/was imp= lemented in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd,= due to incompatible hardware in the network.
Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will = help immensely in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br>
Hi Tissa,

I am no= t sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and = UDP based TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testin= g real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels = should be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats= when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason th= at BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irre= spective of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 201= 2 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com>= wrote:

Dear All

=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions = defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messag= ing channel defined in RFC 4379.

=A0

Advantag= e of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM ch= allenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sa= me wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.

=A0

Advantag= e of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is common= ly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-= traceroute-ping-ext-04.

=A0

Would li= ke to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

=A0

Thanks

Tissa



__= _____________________________________________
rbridge maili= ng list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

______________________________________= _________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do= not lie. And do not do what you hate."





--
"Do not= lie. And do not do what you hate."

--e89a8f234ab598af1e04bc91460f-- --===============1587925050== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1587925050==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 31 15:47:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B4021F8609 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:47:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.427 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.427 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.171, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NuTr-VM-Z+Xo for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A3121F85F6 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VMPCVk004244; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VMOWwK004179 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so3894887obb.39 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:24:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Q0Aik8jgQAH6k3OL/UDg+YTnjkDb1bNqQF/UWW6X9qA=; b=qa1vfKx3z4chULcZHFwhtpGLHCruP0jd13/Woc39mVzR9EkPgEThqmEcnE2AhelUmi 4AqY+ayD8O1LRfb3/eBk4D+EEF6AvjW1ojcTLjxsuTujRYVy3Np0AXInWezizf3dmbnn pysDoHuLeqQxhwqC4cYIVPp5oce7WFeuw7EoW5gO+AWuy+2ZdPEmt5LdkyTTfCp3WZnz g918y5kZ53NHIUozNUfNKsczByecEiuQn7+wtAzR2oCC/m+ZYwjvQ3w5UxfSIxojI79e uYEY2U8pBwc80uSy9NAKz7WxHwaSOU+udjwpER+LlsvjxyqA2yYUzlR8JO3RGXf53zWL OhXQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.136.104 with SMTP id pz8mr4435561obb.3.1333232672163; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.134.73 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:24:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:24:32 -0700 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: Sam Aldrin X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , "rbridge@postel.org" , Jon Hudson Subject: Re: [rbridge] OAM direction X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0500500692==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0500500692== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f643ce6d3c78004bc916b41 --e89a8f643ce6d3c78004bc916b41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Sam, I guess we agree. All I am saying is, it is good to get the solution out. If you want to do the framework in parallel as a guiding principal that's good enough. However we should not wait for any framework etc to be finalized before we get the OAM solution work going. Infact I think with the way we are, we need to proceed with the solution, as we have an idea of the framework in place too. Thanks, Vishwas On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Sam Aldrin wrote: > Hi All, > > Whatever tools one implements is left to ones choice. Be it ping or > something else. I don't think we are disagreeing on that front at all. The > effort we put in here should make sure the framework supports all Oam > aspects in Trill. Discussions we had focused on that aspects and resolved > many issues, and clarified why we do not have one, at present. Hopefully we > put to rest, the confusion, once we publish framework/requirements doc. > > Cheers > Sam > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Vishwas Manral > wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM design: > > 1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be independent > of the lower layer. > > 2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP > or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a > TRILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent > IP/ ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to > similar data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic > is able to monitor traffic directly over Ethernet. > > 3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in > the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute. > > Do let me know if this sounds reasonable? > > Thanks, > Vishwas > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson wrote: > >> >> The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP is that it >> can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is the same >> for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is used. >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin wrote: >> >>> Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a >>> programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will >>> be klugy, and have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: >>> had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible >>> hardware in the network. >>> Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will >>> help immensely in adopting the standard. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Sam >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tissa, >>> >>> I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing >>> MPLS OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. >>> >>> On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing >>> real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels >>> should be good too. >>> >>> My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats >>> when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason >>> that BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) >>> irrespective of the lower layer protocol. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Vishwas >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) < >>> tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear All**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC >>>> 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel >>>> defined in RFC 4379.**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same >>>> framework and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, >>>> we need to define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether >>>> we should use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a >>>> different UDP port.**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure >>>> that is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 >>>> extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual >>>> submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over >>>> the other ?**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Thanks**** >>>> >>>> Tissa**** >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." >> >> > --e89a8f643ce6d3c78004bc916b41 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sam,

I guess we agree.

All I am saying is, it is good to g= et the solution out. If you want to do the framework in parallel as a guidi= ng principal that's good enough. However we should not wait for any fra= mework etc to be finalized before we get the OAM solution work going. Infac= t I think with the way we are, we need to proceed with the solution, as we = have an idea of the framework in place too.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 20= 12 at 12:59 PM, Sam Aldrin <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All,

Whatever too= ls one implements is left to ones choice. Be it ping or something else. I d= on't think we are disagreeing on that front at all. The effort we put i= n here should make sure the framework supports all Oam aspects in Trill. Di= scussions we had focused on that aspects and resolved many issues, and clar= ified why we do not have one, at present. Hopefully we put to rest, the con= fusion, once we publish framework/requirements doc.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from= my iPhone

On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 PM= , Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon,

Here are= a few points we need to take care for good OAM design:

1. The OAM p= ackets should be defined as far as possible to be independent of the lower = layer.

2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ I= P or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a = TRILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent IP= / ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to sim= ilar data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic is = able to monitor traffic directly over Ethernet.

3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets i= n the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute= .

Do let me know if this sounds reasonable?

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson = <jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP = is that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this = is the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is= used.=A0


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin = <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Do not have much preference of reusing the sa= me port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it'= s implementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when process is/was imp= lemented in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd,= due to incompatible hardware in the network.
Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will = help immensely in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br>
Hi Tissa,

I am no= t sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and = UDP based TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testin= g real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels = should be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats= when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason th= at BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irre= spective of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 201= 2 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com>= wrote:

Dear All

=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions = defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messag= ing channel defined in RFC 4379.

=A0

Advantag= e of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM ch= allenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sa= me wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.

=A0

Advantag= e of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is common= ly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-= traceroute-ping-ext-04.

=A0

Would li= ke to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

=A0

Thanks

Tissa



__= _____________________________________________
rbridge maili= ng list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

______________________________________= _________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do not lie. And do not do what you = hate."



--e89a8f643ce6d3c78004bc916b41-- --===============0500500692== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0500500692==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 31 16:04:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268CA21F87CC for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SIZdW3MUrjpx for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E486121F87B0 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VMSTrc004448; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VMS5Zh004407 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so3897434obb.39 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:28:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=XZtRqKHZQ3UfegzVf62ndo5ezrq+aReSgzQPBfT+sZI=; b=L9ZNUmY8eBuqZd1SLUuKcYcs4W9kIBBNGafC1VzX8bP7/fY3OLAeizVuA91/frz0X7 FHHbXq/zOwQbUcU88mVx4/oj6fsPt2zLEMAKgydKsfT2FFpfQ+xw4ObhKqWHr84KbAR8 ThIgT9+6HmWSQitEfZeRVSLDan/sIfOWEbXB9EjnXtFgADh0rrEuq0V9G4PWcqrp6+Br s5oUVpUVlsr3tjdd/y0kD0TeGeYwmuE8oHdGUFXHIcaqVfxlYpQ0PU2zq1tG6DLMN35n 1oehAo3x0vbcK6OfNBL0ucO2OCKZNGXL3gZcN9wUjVHhP+GQzD5MuXTN5jp3mOQ9jNRD Q8Tw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.4.162 with SMTP id l2mr4609362oel.3.1333232885174; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.134.73 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:28:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:28:05 -0700 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: Jon Hudson X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: Sam Aldrin , "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] OAM direction X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1425931180==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1425931180== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1c5ae86132a04bc917846 --e89a8ff1c5ae86132a04bc917846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Jon, I am saying one OAM mechanism, which can allow us to run over multiple layers, With a particular layer binding done to start off. The mechanism should be independent of the lower layer and that should allow it to be extensible for the future. If you see we can already do reach ability tests from server to server (so ICMP Ping), as it traverses a TRILL network, or even a Server to Router test. Let me know if I am missing the point altogether? Thanks, Vishwas On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Jon Hudson wrote: > > That's an interesting point Vishwas. I think I was too sleepy when I first > read this. To be able to choose to run OAM over whatever layer I choose in > TRILL would be highly desirable. > > So then what you are saying is that while the end goal is to support > multiple options for OAM transport, for the sake of moving forward the goal > should be to choose a simple direct example for the draft so that we have > an example of ping and traceroute. > > Then the end goal would be the ability to perform OAM function over > whatever transport was being tested in that case. > > Is that correct? > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > >> Hi Jon, >> >> Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM design: >> >> 1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be independent >> of the lower layer. >> >> 2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP >> or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a >> TRILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent >> IP/ ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to >> similar data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic >> is able to monitor traffic directly over Ethernet. >> >> 3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in >> the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute. >> >> Do let me know if this sounds reasonable? >> >> Thanks, >> Vishwas >> >> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson wrote: >> >>> >>> The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP is that it >>> can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is the same >>> for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is used. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin wrote: >>> >>>> Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a >>>> programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will >>>> be klugy, and have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: >>>> had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible >>>> hardware in the network. >>>> Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will >>>> help immensely in adopting the standard. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Tissa, >>>> >>>> I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing >>>> MPLS OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. >>>> >>>> On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for >>>> testing real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based >>>> channels should be good too. >>>> >>>> My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats >>>> when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason >>>> that BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) >>>> irrespective of the lower layer protocol. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Vishwas >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) < >>>> tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear All**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC >>>>> 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel >>>>> defined in RFC 4379.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same >>>>> framework and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, >>>>> we need to define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether >>>>> we should use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a >>>>> different UDP port.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure >>>>> that is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 >>>>> extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual >>>>> submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over >>>>> the other ?**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Thanks**** >>>>> >>>>> Tissa**** >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." >>> >>> >> > > > -- > "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." > > --e89a8ff1c5ae86132a04bc917846 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jon,

I am saying one OAM mechanism, which can allow us to run ove= r multiple layers, With a particular layer binding done to start off. The m= echanism should be independent of the lower layer and that should allow it = to be extensible for the future.

If you see we can already do reach ability tests from server to server = (so ICMP Ping), as it traverses a TRILL network, or even a Server to Router= test.

Let me know if I am missing the point altogether?

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 a= t 3:14 PM, Jon Hudson <jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

That's an interesting point Vishwas. I think I was too s= leepy when I first read this. To be able to choose to run OAM over whatever= layer I choose in TRILL would be highly desirable.=A0

So then what you are saying is that while the end goal is to support multip= le options for OAM transport, for the sake of moving forward the goal shoul= d be to choose a simple direct example for the draft so that we have an exa= mple of ping and traceroute.=A0

Then the end goal would be the ability to perform OAM f= unction over whatever transport was being tested in that case.=A0

Is that correct?=A0

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.= com> wrote:
Hi Jon,

Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM desi= gn:

1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be in= dependent of the lower layer.

2. As we know we already run OAM over= all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP or any thing else, so as to be able to = replicate real world traffic.In a TRILL network, we can already run traffic= / OAM end to end. So if we sent IP/ ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to= -end, it would work similar to similar data traffic already. What is most r= equired is how the OAM traffic is able to monitor traffic directly over Eth= ernet.

3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets i= n the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute= .

Do let me know if this sounds reasonable?

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson = <jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP = is that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this = is the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is= used.=A0


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin = <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Do not have much preference of reusing the sa= me port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it'= s implementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when process is/was imp= lemented in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd,= due to incompatible hardware in the network.
Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will = help immensely in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br>
Hi Tissa,

I am no= t sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and = UDP based TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testin= g real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels = should be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats= when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason th= at BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irre= spective of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 201= 2 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com>= wrote:

Dear All

=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions = defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messag= ing channel defined in RFC 4379.

=A0

Advantag= e of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM ch= allenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sa= me wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.

=A0

Advantag= e of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is common= ly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-= traceroute-ping-ext-04.

=A0

Would li= ke to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

=A0

Thanks

Tissa



__= _____________________________________________
rbridge maili= ng list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

______________________________________= _________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge



=

--
"Do not lie. And do not do what you h= ate."





--
"Do not= lie. And do not do what you hate."


--e89a8ff1c5ae86132a04bc917846-- --===============1425931180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1425931180==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 31 16:14:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F236F21F87E9 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I32rnGUuDktp for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A926021F87E8 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VMXUtH005053; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f52.google.com (mail-wg0-f52.google.com [74.125.82.52]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2VMWpYc005000 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgbgn7 with SMTP id gn7so1475040wgb.21 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:32:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=BToYba5o/yxzsSHZCMQ+xQdPYfJDFjwXKWhdxAvY5WM=; b=QzWAgpM985Xb5ohzigI8Dx0groUg0Szzg9VZWuevIrtoLqnUwNu3IUWiYcoKI0tHih oq/vUsBq6CfZ9drsBxSXMEIlcYUGloLhczJfx0S7+Pr7WqNCgkmOg6hq/oP/NcP9YFpl he/SaN+NpceoaLxnFeEIdUp9HrSGtpwZNm39I3LTROF8ZnQe4q9rB+F17uKmrbO3QTCs 9BAdTN8VOTLN/IZ0kFpCZ7EdSo6stSVSxE+d1nwVSE84m6M02ej8sRiHTd6WU8XJJ4Ii 7mX0jUT+Gdr5dsNTUM3Osys6DoUElG/r6c7m1Tj44DRWYF3Q2z0mTDrc6GQHFO9dVbxR IjYA== Received: by 10.180.89.9 with SMTP id bk9mr9751666wib.11.1333233170608; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.216.6.63] ([93.158.40.168]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n8sm31565950wix.10.2012.03.31.15.32.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:32:49 -0700 (PDT) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <0795C9F0-C344-4C39-9913-E5F550E77A24@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B176) From: Sam Aldrin Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:32:50 -0700 To: Vishwas Manral X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , "rbridge@postel.org" , Jon Hudson Subject: Re: [rbridge] OAM direction X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1569231456==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============1569231456== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-129B40E7-2DC3-4F25-87D2-C38A53CEBD5E --Apple-Mail-129B40E7-2DC3-4F25-87D2-C38A53CEBD5E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Vishwas, I will let Tissa to fill you in with details. But we had lengthy discussions about the same here at IETF and the conclusio= n was opposite to what you have eluded to. We had laid out bare all the vari= ous proposals, I believe it is 3, on the table and had all the stake holders= involved. The conclusion was that, we had to formalize the requirements fir= st and ensure all the identified requirements to be met by the proposed solu= tion/framework. On top of it, we were advised to ensure to check with other S= DO's, in order to ensure the parity and no re-invention of the wheel. HTH, Sam Sent from my iPad On Mar 31, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > Hi Sam, >=20 > I guess we agree. >=20 > All I am saying is, it is good to get the solution out. If you want to do t= he framework in parallel as a guiding principal that's good enough. However w= e should not wait for any framework etc to be finalized before we get the OA= M solution work going. Infact I think with the way we are, we need to procee= d with the solution, as we have an idea of the framework in place too.=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Vishwas >=20 > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Sam Aldrin wrote= : > Hi All, >=20 > Whatever tools one implements is left to ones choice. Be it ping or someth= ing else. I don't think we are disagreeing on that front at all. The effort w= e put in here should make sure the framework supports all Oam aspects in Tri= ll. Discussions we had focused on that aspects and resolved many issues, and= clarified why we do not have one, at present. Hopefully we put to rest, the= confusion, once we publish framework/requirements doc. >=20 > Cheers > Sam >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote= : >=20 >> Hi Jon, >>=20 >> Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM design: >>=20 >> 1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be independent= of the lower layer.=20 >>=20 >> 2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP o= r any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a TRIL= L network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent IP/ ICM= P ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to similar d= ata traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic is able to= monitor traffic directly over Ethernet. >>=20 >> 3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in t= he same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute.=20= >>=20 >> Do let me know if this sounds reasonable? >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Vishwas >>=20 >> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson wrote:= >>=20 >> The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP is that it ca= n be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is the same fo= r ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is used.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin wrote= : >> Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a progr= ammer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will be klug= y, and have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: had issue= with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible hardware in th= e network. >> Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will hel= p immensely in adopting the standard. >>=20 >> Cheers >> Sam >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral wrot= e: >>=20 >>> Hi Tissa, >>>=20 >>> I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPL= S OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. >>>=20 >>> On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing= real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels sh= ould be good too.=20 >>>=20 >>> My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats w= hen the application works over different layers. It is for that reason that B= FD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irrespect= ive of the lower layer protocol. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Vishwas >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) wrote: >>> Dear All >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC 4884= . I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel defined i= n RFC 4379. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework= and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to= define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should u= se the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP por= t. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure tha= t is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 exte= nsions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission dr= aft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the= other ? >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks >>>=20 >>> Tissa >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rbridge mailing list >>> rbridge@postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rbridge mailing list >> rbridge@postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-129B40E7-2DC3-4F25-87D2-C38A53CEBD5E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi Vishwas,

=
I will let Tissa to fill you in with details.

But we had lengthy discussions about the same here at IETF and the con= clusion was opposite to what you have eluded to. We had laid out bare all th= e various proposals, I believe it is 3, on the table and had all the stake h= olders involved. The conclusion was that, we had to formalize the requiremen= ts first and ensure all the identified requirements to be met by the propose= d solution/framework. On top of it, we were advised to ensure to check with o= ther SDO's, in order to ensure the parity and no re-invention of the wheel.<= /div>

HTH,
Sam

Sent from my iPad<= /div>

On Mar 31, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sam,

I guess we agree= .

All I am saying is, it is good to get the solution out. If you want= to do the framework in parallel as a guiding principal that's good enough. H= owever we should not wait for any framework etc to be finalized before we ge= t the OAM solution work going. Infact I think with the way we are, we need t= o proceed with the solution, as we have an idea of the framework in place to= o.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 201= 2 at 12:59 PM, Sam Aldrin <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All,

Whatever tool= s one implements is left to ones choice. Be it ping or something else. I don= 't think we are disagreeing on that front at all. The effort we put in here s= hould make sure the framework supports all Oam aspects in Trill. Discussions= we had focused on that aspects and resolved many issues, and clarified why w= e do not have one, at present. Hopefully we put to rest, the confusion, once= we publish framework/requirements doc.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from m= y iPhone

On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 PM, V= ishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon,

Here are a= few points we need to take care for good OAM design:

1. The OAM pack= ets should be defined as far as possible to be independent of the lower laye= r.

2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP= or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a TR= ILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent IP/ I= CMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to similar= data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic is able t= o monitor traffic directly over Ethernet.

3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in= the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute. <= br>
Do let me know if this sounds reasonable?

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson <= span dir=3D"ltr"><jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP i= s that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is= the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is us= ed. 


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin <= span dir=3D"ltr"><aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Do not have much preference of reusing the sam= e port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's impl= ementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when process is/was implemente= d in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to i= ncompatible hardware in the network.
Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will h= elp immensely in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tissa,

I am not s= ure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and UDP b= ased TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testing= real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels sh= ould be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats w= hen the application works over different layers. It is for that reason that B= FD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irrespect= ive of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012= at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote:

Dear All

 

=

Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions d= efined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messagin= g channel defined in RFC 4379.

 

Advant= age of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM c= hallenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sam= e wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.<= u>

 

Advant= age of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is commo= nly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-t= raceroute-ping-ext-04.

 

Would l= ike to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

 

Thanks

Tissa

=


___= ____________________________________________
rbridge mailing= list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

___________________________________________= ____
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do not lie. And do not do what you hate."<= br>


= --Apple-Mail-129B40E7-2DC3-4F25-87D2-C38A53CEBD5E-- --===============1569231456== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1569231456==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Sat Mar 31 17:57:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B9E21F879B for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:57:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.473 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.473 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gbhLA-CDZczy for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3569421F879A for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q310Z3YH020533; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q310YkXL020521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so3995968obb.39 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:34:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=XgtSjz+54ix36KPtfHdWmx87wGPaKVcfXPEXsBh145Q=; b=Z6/0A1YOkpuI2wPgt+L47pxI+lrHD+su84ZhxHhAnUMpefu1g0MkJ+1VfsyycjYN2q 1r8VT9kBK41H4tPQdxA7moFvOf8j3pORna664mxgV5Y1GQpFcU8DcZIIW8uywUkFS9qv RkYlAJqAK8lkWjmeezXExYdJrgD6avP2ds3LPVjUB7vVbOrC6QWAK/i/K1d3V26xUhar BFOGmoPi260SJeNS8upeo68XBujPyjlDB3EnQmfUbQ+b0YYqpVT9puTc0Q+V5R8NICaB NCkRUZyNXAJomVL0etKcw+vxga7xrDCzussbDSPCzLzStWoNFC14GJXelfadGIVbewc/ bHVA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.0.48 with SMTP id 16mr4845564obb.23.1333240486226; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.134.73 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:34:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0795C9F0-C344-4C39-9913-E5F550E77A24@gmail.com> References: <0795C9F0-C344-4C39-9913-E5F550E77A24@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:34:46 -0700 Message-ID: From: Vishwas Manral To: Sam Aldrin X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com Cc: "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" , "rbridge@postel.org" , Jon Hudson Subject: Re: [rbridge] OAM direction X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0144583921==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org --===============0144583921== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043893ff94eaca04bc933d52 --f46d043893ff94eaca04bc933d52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks Sam. Sounds great to me. -Vishwas On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Sam Aldrin wrote: > Hi Vishwas, > > I will let Tissa to fill you in with details. > > But we had lengthy discussions about the same here at IETF and the > conclusion was opposite to what you have eluded to. We had laid out bare > all the various proposals, I believe it is 3, on the table and had all the > stake holders involved. The conclusion was that, we had to formalize the > requirements first and ensure all the identified requirements to be met by > the proposed solution/framework. On top of it, we were advised to ensure to > check with other SDO's, in order to ensure the parity and no re-invention > of the wheel. > > HTH, > Sam > > Sent from my iPad > > On Mar 31, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Vishwas Manral > wrote: > > Hi Sam, > > I guess we agree. > > All I am saying is, it is good to get the solution out. If you want to do > the framework in parallel as a guiding principal that's good enough. > However we should not wait for any framework etc to be finalized before we > get the OAM solution work going. Infact I think with the way we are, we > need to proceed with the solution, as we have an idea of the framework in > place too. > > Thanks, > Vishwas > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Sam Aldrin wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Whatever tools one implements is left to ones choice. Be it ping or >> something else. I don't think we are disagreeing on that front at all. The >> effort we put in here should make sure the framework supports all Oam >> aspects in Trill. Discussions we had focused on that aspects and resolved >> many issues, and clarified why we do not have one, at present. Hopefully we >> put to rest, the confusion, once we publish framework/requirements doc. >> >> Cheers >> Sam >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Vishwas Manral >> wrote: >> >> Hi Jon, >> >> Here are a few points we need to take care for good OAM design: >> >> 1. The OAM packets should be defined as far as possible to be independent >> of the lower layer. >> >> 2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ IP >> or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a >> TRILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent >> IP/ ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to >> similar data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic >> is able to monitor traffic directly over Ethernet. >> >> 3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets in >> the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute. >> >> Do let me know if this sounds reasonable? >> >> Thanks, >> Vishwas >> >> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson wrote: >> >>> >>> The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP is that it >>> can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this is the same >>> for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is used. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin wrote: >>> >>>> Do not have much preference of reusing the same port or not. With a >>>> programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it's implementation, it will >>>> be klugy, and have issues when process is/was implemented in h.w. For ex: >>>> had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd, due to incompatible >>>> hardware in the network. >>>> Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will >>>> help immensely in adopting the standard. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Tissa, >>>> >>>> I am not sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing >>>> MPLS OAM and UDP based TRILL OAM packets. >>>> >>>> On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for >>>> testing real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based >>>> channels should be good too. >>>> >>>> My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats >>>> when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason >>>> that BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) >>>> irrespective of the lower layer protocol. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Vishwas >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) < >>>> tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear All**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions defined in RFC >>>>> 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messaging channel >>>>> defined in RFC 4379.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Advantage of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same >>>>> framework and OAM challenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, >>>>> we need to define new TLV series and message types. Question arise whether >>>>> we should use the same wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a >>>>> different UDP port.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Advantage of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure >>>>> that is commonly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 >>>>> extensions and it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual >>>>> submission draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Would like to see the preference from the WG on specific method over >>>>> the other ?**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Thanks**** >>>>> >>>>> Tissa**** >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rbridge mailing list >>>> rbridge@postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "Do not lie. And do not do what you hate." >>> >>> >> > --f46d043893ff94eaca04bc933d52 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Sam. Sounds great to me.

-Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Sam Aldrin <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com>= wrote:
Hi Vishwas,

I will let Tissa to fill you in with details.
<= div>
But we had lengthy discussions about the same here at IETF a= nd the conclusion was opposite to what you have eluded to. We had laid out = bare all the various proposals, I believe it is 3, on the table and had all= the stake holders involved. The conclusion was that, we had to formalize t= he requirements first and ensure all the identified requirements to be met = by the proposed solution/framework. On top of it, we were advised to ensure= to check with other SDO's, in order to ensure the parity and no re-inv= ention of the wheel.

HTH,
Sam

Sent= from my iPad

On Mar 31, 2012, a= t 3:24 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sam,

I guess = we agree.

All I am saying is, it is good to get the solution out. If= you want to do the framework in parallel as a guiding principal that's= good enough. However we should not wait for any framework etc to be finali= zed before we get the OAM solution work going. Infact I think with the way = we are, we need to proceed with the solution, as we have an idea of the fra= mework in place too.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 20= 12 at 12:59 PM, Sam Aldrin <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote= :
Hi All,

Whatever too= ls one implements is left to ones choice. Be it ping or something else. I d= on't think we are disagreeing on that front at all. The effort we put i= n here should make sure the framework supports all Oam aspects in Trill. Di= scussions we had focused on that aspects and resolved many issues, and clar= ified why we do not have one, at present. Hopefully we put to rest, the con= fusion, once we publish framework/requirements doc.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from= my iPhone

On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Vishwas Man= ral <vishwas= .ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jon,

Here are= a few points we need to take care for good OAM design:

1. The OAM p= ackets should be defined as far as possible to be independent of the lower = layer.

2. As we know we already run OAM over all layers like TCP/ ICMP/ UDP/ I= P or any thing else, so as to be able to replicate real world traffic.In a = TRILL network, we can already run traffic/ OAM end to end. So if we sent IP= / ICMP ping over the TRILL network end-to-end, it would work similar to sim= ilar data traffic already. What is most required is how the OAM traffic is = able to monitor traffic directly over Ethernet.

3. We do not need to define every possible combination of OAM packets i= n the same draft. We first need a simple set of ping and unicast traceroute= .

Do let me know if this sounds reasonable?

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Jon Hudson = <jon.hudson@gmail.com> wrote:

The number one concern I hear from Users about anything UDP = is that it can be dropped and is stateless. (big issue with VXLAN) As this = is the same for ICMP I see no practical difference to the User which one is= used.=A0


On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Sam Aldrin = <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Do not have much preference of reusing the sa= me port or not. With a programmer hat on, who developed rfc4379 and it'= s implementation, it will be klugy, and have issues when process is/was imp= lemented in h.w. For ex: had issue with vccv when used by lsp ping and bfd,= due to incompatible hardware in the network.
Having said that, idea is to use similar message or tlv formats, will = help immensely in adopting the standard.

Cheers
Sam

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br>
Hi Tissa,

I am no= t sure we would want to use the same port for de-multiplexing MPLS OAM and = UDP based TRILL OAM packets.

On another note, I do know that folks use different channels for testin= g real application behavior in current networks. So yes UDP based channels = should be good too.

My biggest concern is that we should not have different message formats= when the application works over different layers. It is for that reason th= at BFD has been so successful (the same message format/ state machine) irre= spective of the lower layer protocol.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Fri, Mar 2, 201= 2 at 8:08 AM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) <tsenevir@cisco.com>= wrote:

Dear All

=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Current draft-tissa-till-oam utilize ICMP extensions = defined in RFC 4884. I have also heard preference of using UDP based messag= ing channel defined in RFC 4379.

=A0

Advantag= e of using RFC 4379 methods is we can utilize the same framework and OAM ch= allenges in TRILL and MPLS world are similar. However, we need to define ne= w TLV series and message types. Question arise whether we should use the sa= me wellknown UDP port used in MPLS OAM or a use a different UDP port.

=A0

Advantag= e of ICMP method is we are utilizing the ICMP infrastructure that is common= ly utilized in IP world. However, we need to define RFC 4884 extensions and= it also heavily depends on acceptance of individual submission draft-shen-= traceroute-ping-ext-04.

=A0

Would li= ke to see the preference from the WG on specific method over the other ?=

=A0

Thanks

Tissa



__= _____________________________________________
rbridge maili= ng list
rbridge@postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge

______________________________________= _________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= /a>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge




--
"Do not lie. And do not do what you = hate."




--f46d043893ff94eaca04bc933d52-- --===============0144583921== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0144583921==--
Hi Sunny,

I agree with your judgement about the LAG link failure. 

I have another concern with 5.6.1. Edge RBridge RBk failure. I think that CMT should have the chance to offer an incremental recalcul= ation of distributions trees under nodal failures. In other words, a nodal = failure should affect only one distribution tree while others should remain unchanged. But paragraph 3 of this section= makes me believe that there is an overall recalculation. 

Thanks,
Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@post= el.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Santosh Rajagopalan [sunny= .rajagopalan@us.ibm.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C230=C8=D5 1:15
=B5=BD: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-ti= ssa-trill-cmt-00

Tissa,
Are you saying that the solution is on= ly applicable to multi-homed hosts or that it's also applicable to edge swi= tches? (the draft says the example is valid for "either End Stations and/or Legacy bridges")? If you're expanding the scope to include the latter, then the inability to= interconnect them  is a serious deficiency, as are the other points l= isted below. Anyway if the solution if being proposed only for a narrow cas= e, it should be mentioned clearly in the draft - it's not enough for it to be "discussed in Taipei". = The draft talks about a "typical deployment scenario" without sta= ting that this is the only possible deployment scenario.

Even if you narrow the scope considera= bly, you still need to address the issue of LAG link failure - (see point #= 3) below. In this draft, a single link failure leads to us bringing down a= ll southbound ports on the upstream device, which is quite drastic. This draft needs to address this issue for= it to be workable.

--
Sunny Rajagopalan



From:     =    "Tissa Senevi= rathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>
To:     &n= bsp;  Santosh Rajagopalan/= Santa Clara/IBM@IBMUS, <rbridge@postel.org>
Date:     =    03/28/2012 04:17 P= M
Subject:   &nbs= p;    RE: [rbridge] n= etwork topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00



The key application of = this draft is for multi-homed devices that are servicing as end stations, e= .g. servers on data centers. Please see Reference topology 2 and it was dis= cussed in Taipei and stated in the draft that this solution is applicable to multi-homed active-active edge.=
 
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [<= /font>mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Santosh Rajagopalan
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:01 PM
To: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: [rbridge] network topology constraints in draft-tissa-trill-cm= t-00
 
This is a clever draft, but I wanted to poi= nt out some network topology constraints in the proposal:

1) It looks like you can only use this proposal if the CE switches are = *not* interconnected in any fashion outside of the trill network. This is b= ecause sending packets into the CE network strips off information needed to= prevent loops. Let me illustrate using the example from the draft: RB1 receives a multidestination packet f= rom the trill campus on tree 1, and it also has an "affinity" for= that tree. So it decaps it and send the packet into the CE network (basica= lly, a copy gets sent to each of CE1..CEn).

Let's assume that the CE network is composed of interconnected switches, in= stead of the isolated switches shown in the picture. This is reasonable, be= cause it avoids needing to take the extra hop to the aggregation layer for = end-systems on the same chassis or rack. This means that a broadcast packet would be replicated by the CE = network to each of its switches, including CE1...CEn. So CE1..CEn just got = their first duplicate. Each of these switches looks at the attached rbridge= s as edge ports, so it sends them a copy. Now, rbridges RB1..RBk each label the ingressing packet with their= respective "affinity" tree labels and sends them into the TRILL = network, where it gets to the edge of the trill network, and the cycle repe= ats. You now have a loop.

In addition, if you had interconnectivity between the CE switches, then the= edge rbridges would be able to exchange LSPs with each other, which will r= esult in one of them being elected the AF. The others will then not encap o= r decap CE packets. So the affinity based approach would conflict with  RFC 6325. All in all, we need the= CE switches to be isolated here.

2) Applying an STP-based solution like the one described in RFC 6325 (<= /font>"The Spanning Tree Solution&= quot;) to  break the connectivity between the CE switches won't work h= ere, because this will render certain switches unreachable on some trees. I= n figure 13 ("wiring closet topology") in rfc 6325, if RB1 has an affinity for tree k, then packets coming in from the t= rill cloud on that tree will need to get to B2 through RB1, but since STP h= as blocked B1-B2 this won't happen. This just reiterates that no form of in= terconnect whatsoever between the CE switches is permissible, and "The Spanning Tree Solution" will not work here.

3) In addition to the above constraint, each CE switch needs to be conn= ected to every rbridge, and the consequence of any of the LAG links going d= own are catastrophic. Also, each rbridge needs to have a vLAG each to each = CE switch in the LAN. This is necessary because the entire CE network has been "emulated" by the pseudo-= rbridge (RBv) in the draft.

Let's say a packet arrives from the trill core at a certain rbridge on a tr= ee that it has an affinity for. The assumption is that by decapsulating the= packet and sending it to each of the attached CE links, all the stations i= n the CE network will get the packet. So if there's a certain CE switch which isn't connected to this rbridge, i= t will not get the packet (the packet can't get to the CE switch through an= other CE switch, because of the constraint in 1) above).

This means that a) each rbridge needs to have n vLAGs, one for each CE swit= ch, and b) each CE switch needs to have k ports in its LAG, one for each rb= ridge. Note that most switches have scalability constraints on the number o= f LAG members and on the number of VLAGs. For small networks this may not be a problem, however, this may = still be a problem if one of your links on the LAG goes down. In that case,= that CE switch will get permanently blackholed for some trees. (Essentiall= y, the upstream rbridge on the other end of the down link no longer has any way of reaching the CE switch on th= e x trees it has an affinity for)

At the very least, this proposal needs a way for an rbridge to "relinq= uish" its affinity trees when any VLAG link goes down, and a way those= trees to either be retired or be picked up by other rbridges. In addition,= the rbridge will need to bring all of its CE-facing links down, so that the CE bridges don't try to use that rbridge= to inject packets into the TRILL network.

4) Because of the constraint imposed by 1), you cannot interconnect two= trill clouds using an intermediate CE cloud - the trill clouds will need t= o be merged using p2p trill links. This could be a problem if you plan to i= ncrementally upgrade your switches to trill, as opposed to a fork-lift upgrade of your whole data center.

Note that the existing version of RFC 6325 does not have constraints on int= erconnectivity of CE switches or rbridges as described above.

Thoughts?

--
Sunny Rajagopalan <= br>

Hi Zhai,<= o:p>

 

In the Multi-topology case I am not sure wha= t is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that all the RBridges in t= he campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in= the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like this will cause MAC flip flop on the ot= her RBridges and other issues since all the other RBridges do not understan= d MT.

 

Could you please explain how MT can wo= rk in such scenarios?


= Thanks

Jana

 

 

F= rom: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] O= n Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2= 012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (= tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge]= Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

<= /div>

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience i= s one of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension d= iscusses whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when= there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution tree = need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need r= econfiguration. I= f one Rbridge advertizing affinity= tlv goes down, t= he tree can be ro= oted at the other= Egress Rbridge ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding followin= g to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity)

PN:= 3

CMT: 1<= o:p>

MTRA: m= ultiple

Thanks=
Rohit

----= -Original Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
S= ent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevira= thne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel= .org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to l= ist the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions= for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBri= dge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solutio= n is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing silicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tu= nneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-flop.

= CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topolo= gy is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

= 3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can = be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CM= T: YES.

MTRA: = YES.

4. Multi-= cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that r= esilience is one of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This = dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure re= covery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distrib= ution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES. <= o:p>

The following table l= ists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). = MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+----------= -+----------+------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB= Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+----= ---------|

|PN=       |YES      &nbs= p;  |NO         |NO  = ;      |NO      &nbs= p;   |NO         &nb= sp; |

+-------= -+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|CMT   &= nbsp; |NO          |YES &= nbsp;      |YES      = ; |YES         |NO   = ;        |

+--------+------------+-----------+--------= --+------------+-------------|

|MTRA    |YES     =     |YES(will)  |YES      = ; |YES         |YES  &nbs= p;       |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+--= ----------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui



=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: = rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Ra= dia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (ts= enevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7<= span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-family:MingLiU'>=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to= WG draft








It is my understanding that

a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in t= he campus

b) C= MT requires there be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs = on any link

&n= bsp;

Of course= , no solution is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the p= roposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.<= /p>

 

<= span style=3D'font-family:Consolas'>So from memory...other proposals for al= lowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link:

 

<= p>First note: regardless of whether th= eir port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can use the pseu= donode

nicknam= e when encapsulating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use= the pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating=

multidestination frames for ing= ress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port to the link is not= in any of the trees,

here were some of the proposed solutions.  So, let's say that = R1 and R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the link is= not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination fr= ame:

 

1) R3 could tunn= el it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode n= ickname) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards= compatible.  Con: more hops, might be difficult

=

in some implementations for R3 to f= orward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet.=

 =

2) R3 could use its = own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

=

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other t= han the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC learning in = distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the = pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast,

or multicast through R1 or R2), or being o= n R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame from S).

 

------

<= p>There might have been some other pro= posals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the tw= o disadvantages I mentioned above, but I can live with it.

 

Radia




= --_000_CE35792847FBE84687FF9117132C8EFD4711441353EXCHCLUSTER11_-- --===============1825391528== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1825391528==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 04:44:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF1721F8964 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:44:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.515 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.515 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.764, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, WEIRD_QUOTING=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPCuErckg78W for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F3B21F8961 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SB3qax026201; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SB3Abf025789 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:03:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=106488; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332932598; x=1334142198; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:references:from:to: cc; bh=D7owfe/5aZvhZ7E/7r+JcdLFjY40CcW7uuaOA18aTos=; b=fGVl4/EpXfLXViuDt5fxiAm2lNMsdZ2KmG3s2eIwNlWVLNOOz6LpSqhi 6wTTXKcbrAooYMGLDSkmi0r8jMuzhuqeGo+SCtbdu3sbkkPqzuphEpHS0 YQlfufCBqlTw2RqSLRrnQk6X7CLndIrrKT1T+T/K5PblQCfsVAVqfMHfq o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjwFAB3vck+rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABCA4JGgnqqNgGIdoEHggkBAQEDAQEBAQ8BBwEBARADFyAHCwULAgEGAhEEAQELBhABBgEEAgEgBh8JCAEBBAESCBMHh2MEDJtRjQIIg2iOKYoAd4Jygg05YwSIWI4aiiCDFIFogweBPA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,661,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="37916967" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2012 11:03:09 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2SB38bj002402; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:03:09 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:03:08 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:03:08 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA06FF@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: Ac0Mv2Ru5XSpVfeESfuOZsgxaw8LTwAABUxAAAFhAwA= References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA06F7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 11:03:08.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[5BE67DB0:01CD0CD2] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: Donald Eastlake , rbridge@postel.org, Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan , rbridge-bounces@postel.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0907740509==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0907740509== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD2.5B80DD75" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD2.5B80DD75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hongjun =20 Few more points, if you use Affinity TLV in your draft you can address = #1 and #2 and we all will be happy family. =20 We do not need to think too much of backward compatibility, such does = not exist. We have more TRILL drafts than actual TRILL RBridges out = there, I guess that summarize how important is to discuss backward = compatibility. =20 Thanks Tissa =20 From: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:03 AM To: 'zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn' Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: RE: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft =20 The static configuration required is only the virtual RB nickname. =20 We discussed earlier in your proposal, to overcome RPF issues we need to = either =20 1. Have tree rooted on each edge RBridge OR 2. Tunnel #1 does not scale #2 a non standard behavior.=20 =20 In the CMT if the number of tree are less we can either make a link = passive or optionally use tunneling.=20 =20 Lets assume we have 200 such virtual RBridges with dual homing in each = virtual RBRidge (i.e two RBridges in the block). In the CMT we just need = two trees to perform active-active forwarding. =20 In your case either we need 400 trees (i.e. 2*200) or dataplane upgrade = to do tunneling. Both of them in my mind is not going to help. =20 Additionally Affinity TLV enable so many different other applications = beyond active-active forwarding, =20 If you are still in Paris maybe we can meetup and go over some of the = issues. =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:47 AM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 > Normally PN-LSP is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot see = LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ?=20 I think, DRB can be configured by adiminstrator in LAG scenario. And = another member is used to detect the failure of this "DRB". If finding = DRB failed, the detecting member RB becomes DRB and annouce new = PN-LSPs.=20 I think, static configurations are required in LAG scenario both in your = CMT draft and my PN draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" =20 2012-03-28 16:33=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB =20 =B3=AD=CB=CD "Donald Eastlake" , , = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" , = , =20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =09 You quoted =A1=B0No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. = Only one Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The = pseudo-nickname and all the members of this group will be carried in = this LSP.=A1=B1=20 =20 Normally PN-LSP is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot see LAN = hellos how does the DRB get elected ?=20 =20 =20 =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:15 AM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft=20 =20 See in-line, pls.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" >=20 2012-03-28 15:23=20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB >, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD "Donald Eastlake" >, = >, = >, = >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =09 See in-line=20 =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn = [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn ]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = ; rbridge@postel.org = ; rbridge-bounces@postel.org = ; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 =20 Hi Jana=A3=AC=20 In PN draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to = form a DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had = considered using PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would = not be as many trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node = as root is only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in = PN draft, which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree.=20 In the later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a virtual = RBridge Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any formed = DTree. If this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward (or = tunnel) the received native traffic to another member RBridge that = directly attaches to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later = RBridge ingresses the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF = check on a remote RBridge.=20 [Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other. =20 -------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 I don't think Hellos are necessary for PN draft. Hellos are used to find = member Rbridges and nogotiate psuedu-nickname in a virtual Rbridge = group. In LAG scenario, pseudo-nickname and members for a virtual = RBridge group should be configured statically by a network = administrator. Based on static configuration, each member Rbdiges in = this group will know this nickname and all other paterners, therefore = Hellos are not required.=20 --------=20 Hence each one of them form a separate PN.=20 -------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this LSP.=20 ----------=20 Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel traffic. It does not = matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid this. Tunneling Traffic = is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and this cannot be = considered as the standard solution.=20 ------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 If the number trees is less than the mumber of members in a RB group, = and all the member s are active, tunneling traffic can not be avoided in = your CMT and my PN draft.=20 --------=20 1. Use of PN as the root is non scalable=20 ------ [by Zhai Hongjun]=20 PN draft dosen't require PN node as root for forming DTrees. PN node as = root is only an optional approach. So the scalabity for this point does = not exist.=20 -------=20 2. Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane behavior=20 --------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 see the above answer.=20 --------=20 Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft can = not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges.=20 ------- [by Zhai Hongjun]=20 I don't think so.=20 --------=20 I have no problem with your draft to be discussed as a potential way for = LAN. But it is not the solution for multi-homed active-active edge.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan >=20 2012-03-28 14:27=20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn " = >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake >, = "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn " = >, = "rbridge@postel.org " >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = " >, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" = >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 I think the other point in the pN draft is=20 The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with the = PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.=20 A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, but since = this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt that the = requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be possible.=20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 The main difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:=20 1) In PN draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry = pseudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge group,=20 2) While in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry = pseudo-nickname and the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.=20 > 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1,=20 > RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello frame on this = link towards CE1,=20 > this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept=20 > of AF will not be applicable in this scenario=20 In PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual=20 RBridge group. For a virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and = pseudo-nickname are configured statically=20 by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are not requisite in PN draft. = Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft,=20 i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using pseudo-LSP = to carry information of this RBridge group,=20 is also applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). = Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid the = backward compatibility issue.=20 > 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network,=20 > and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft = the links are=20 > all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent = to only one of=20 > the RB1 and not to all of them.=20 Although the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly = based on Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname=20 and employing pseudo-LSP to carry RB Group info is also applicable in = other scenario, such as LAGs and multi-homing.=20 Whether using one member RB or all member RBs to forward traffic for an = end system, it depends on in which scenario the=20 pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement the = pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=20 Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan >=20 2012-03-28 00:09=20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn " = >, "Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" = >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake >, = "rbridge@postel.org " >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = " >, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = " >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 Few points:=20 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello = frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by any of the = other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be = applicable in this scenario=20 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network, and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in = the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. = broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 and not to all of = them.=20 So I think the problem space that these two drafts are discussing are = different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be applicable to the LAG = active-active load balancing scenarios described in the CMT draft.=20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org ] = On Behalf Of zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:49 PM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org ; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn =20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi Tissa=20 In your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for backward compatibility in = CMT. So CMT can not work until all the RBridges support affinitive-TLV.=20 However, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN = draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of = a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work for the scenario described in your CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=20 "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = =20 2012-03-27 18:12=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB >, "Donald = Eastlake" >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD rbridge@postel.org , = rbridge-bounces@postel.org =20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Hu=20 CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility and your assessment of = RPF failure when older RBridges present is incorrect.=20 Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment scenario.=20 Thanks=20 Tissa=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org ] = On Behalf Of hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn =20 Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM To: Donald Eastlake Cc: rbridge@postel.org ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org =20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi,all=20 We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only = if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, = the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the = virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC = check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve = is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a = optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder = whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back = compatibility issue.=20 There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.=20 Thanks=20 Donald Eastlake >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = =20 2012-03-27 06:38=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB rbridge@postel.org =20 =B3=AD=CB=CD =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to respond, please do so by April 10th. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com =20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org =20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = =20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org =20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. 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Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. 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Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD2.5B80DD75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hongjun

 

Few more points, if you use Affinity TLV in your draft you can = address #1 and #2 and we all will be happy = family.

 

We do not need to think too much of backward compatibility, such does = not exist. We have more TRILL drafts than actual TRILL RBridges out = there, I guess that summarize how important is to discuss backward = compatibility.

 

Thanks

Tissa

 

From:= = Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 = 2:03 AM
To: 'zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn'
Cc: Donald = Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; = rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org
Subject: RE: = RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 

The static configuration required is only the virtual RB = nickname.

 

We discussed earlier in your proposal, to overcome RPF issues we need = to either

 

1.       = Have tree rooted on each edge RBridge OR

2.       = Tunnel

#1 does not scale #2 a non standard behavior. =

 

In the CMT if the number of tree are less we can either make a link = passive or optionally use tunneling.

 

Lets assume we have 200 such virtual RBridges with dual homing in = each virtual RBRidge (i.e two RBridges in the block). In the CMT we just = need two trees to perform active-active = forwarding.

 

In your case either we need 400 trees (i.e. 2*200) or dataplane = upgrade to do tunneling. Both of them in my mind is not going to = help.

 

Additionally Affinity TLV enable so many different other applications = beyond active-active forwarding,

 

If you are still in Paris maybe we can meetup and go over some of the = issues.

 

From:= = zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn = [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:47 AM
To: = Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org=
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 


>  Normally PN-LSP  is announced by the DRB, since = RBRidges cannot see LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ? =

I think, DRB can be configured by adiminstrator in LAG scenario. And =  another member  is used to detect the failure of this = "DRB". If finding DRB failed,  the detecting member RB = becomes DRB and annouce new PN-LSPs.

I think, static configurations are required in LAG scenario both in = your CMT draft and my PN draft.



T= hanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn
&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""


"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com><= span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =

2012-03-28 = 16:33

<zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

"Donald = Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <jana@force10networks.com>= , <rbridge@postel.org>, = <rbridge-bounces@postel.org= >

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 




You quoted =A1=B0No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate = PN. Only one Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The = pseudo-nickname and all the members of this group will be carried in = this LSP.=A1=B1
 
Normally PN-LSP  is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot = see LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ?
 
 
 
From:= = zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn = [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:15 AM
To: = Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org=
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft
 

See = in-line, pls. =


<= br>Thanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""

"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =

2012-03-28 = 15:23 =

 

<zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <jana@force10ne= tworks.com> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

"Donald = Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om>, = <hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn>, = <rbridge@postel= .org>, = <rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org> =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft


  =

 





See in-line
 
From: zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.= hongjun@zte.com.cn] =
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM
To: = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn; rbridge@post= el.org; rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org; Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft
 

Hi = Jana=A3=AC

In = PN draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to = form a DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had = considered using PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would = not be as many trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node = as root is only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in = PN draft, which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree. =

In the later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a = virtual RBridge Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any = formed DTree. If this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward = (or tunnel) the received native traffic to another member RBridge that = directly attaches to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later = RBridge ingresses the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF = check on a remote RBridge.
[Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other.  
-------[by Zhai Hongjun]
I don't think Hellos are necessary for PN draft. Hellos are used = to find member Rbridges and nogotiate psuedu-nickname in a virtual = Rbridge group.  In LAG scenario, pseudo-nickname and members for a = virtual RBridge group should be configured statically by a network = administrator. Based on static configuration,   each member Rbdiges = in this group will know this nickname and all other paterners, therefore =  Hellos are not required.
-------- =

Hence each one of them form a separate PN.
-------[by Zhai Hongjun]
No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this = LSP. =
----------

Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel traffic. It does = not matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid this. Tunneling = Traffic is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and this cannot be = considered as the standard solution.
------[by Zhai = Hongjun] =
If the number trees is less than the mumber of members in a RB = group, and all the member s are active, tunneling traffic can not be = avoided in your CMT and my PN draft.
-------- =

1.       Use of PN as the root is non = scalable =
------ [by Zhai Hongjun]
PN draft dosen't require PN node as root for forming DTrees. PN = node as root is only an optional approach.  So the scalabity for = this point does not exist.
------- =

2.       Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane = behavior =
--------[by Zhai Hongjun]
see the above answer.
-------- =

Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft = can not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges.
------- [by Zhai Hongjun]
I don't think so.
-------- =

I have no problem with your draft to be discussed as a potential = way for LAN. But it is not the solution for multi-homed active-active = edge. =


T= hanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""

Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10ne= tworks.com> =

2012-03-28 = 14:27 =

  =

 

"<= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn" = <zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

Donald = Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om>, = "hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn" = <hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn>, = "rbridge@postel= .org" = <rbridge@postel= .org>, = "rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org" = <rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

 





Hi Zhai,

I think the other point in the pN draft is
The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with = the PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.
A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, but = since this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt that = the requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be = possible. =

Thanks =
Jana =

The main = difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:
1) In PN = draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry pseudo-nickname and = members of a virtual RBridge group,
2) While = in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry pseudo-nickname and = the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.

> = 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1,
> RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a = TRILL hello frame on this link towards CE1,
> = this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept
> of = AF will not be applicable in this scenario

In = PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual
RBridge group. For a = virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and pseudo-nickname are = configured statically
by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are = not requisite in PN draft. Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft, =
i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using = pseudo-LSP to carry information of this RBridge group,
is also = applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). =

Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid = the backward compatibility issue.


&= gt; 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and = out of this network,
> and this is because it is regular Ethernet = link. But in the CMT draft the links are
> all LAGs, and hence = the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of =
> the RB1 and not to all of them.

Altho= ugh the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly based on = Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname
and employing pseudo-LSP = to carry RB Group info is also applicable in other scenario, such as = LAGs and multi-homing.
Whether using one member RB or all member RBs = to forward traffic for an end system, it depends on in which scenario = the
pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement = the pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.


T= hanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""" =

Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10ne= tworks.com> =

2012-03-28 = 00:09 =

  =

  =

 

"<= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn" = <zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

Donald = Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om>, = "rbridge@postel= .org" = <rbridge@postel= .org>, = "rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org" = <rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org>, = "hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn" = <hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn> =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

  =

 





Hi Zhai,

Few points:

1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. = treat their links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a = TRILL hello frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by = any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not = be applicable in this scenario

2)  In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all = traffic into and out of this network, and this is because it is regular = Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence = the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 = and not to all of them.

So I think the problem space that these two drafts are = discussing are different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be = applicable to the LAG active-active load balancing scenarios described = in the CMT draft.

Thanks
Jana =


From= : rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org [mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn
Sent: Tuesday, = March 27, 2012 4:49 PM
To: Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@post= el.org; rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org; hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn
Subject:= Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft


H= i Tissa =

In = your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for backward compatibility in CMT. So = CMT can not work until all the RBridges support = affinitive-TLV. =

Howev= er, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN draft = employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of a = virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work for the scenario described in your CMT = draft. =


T= hanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""

"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =  rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org =

2012-03-27 = 18:12 =

  =

  =

  =

 

<hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn>, = "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

rbridge@postel= .org, rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

Re: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

  =

  =

 





Hi Hu

CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility  and your = assessment of RPF failure when older RBridges present is = incorrect. =

Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the = scenario described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, = most Data Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to = the TRILL edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because = of the LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology = in the draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment = scenario. =

Thanks
Tissa =

From= : rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org [mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn
Sent: Monday, = March 26, 2012 9:41 PM
To: Donald Eastlake
Cc: = rbridge@post= el.org; rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org
Subject:= Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft


H= i,all =

We = have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if = all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the = CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual = RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check = failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not = an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a optional = solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder whether = the CMT will does work actually because of the back compatibility = issue. =

There= is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.

Thank= s =

Donald = Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om> =
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =  rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org =

2012-03-27 = 06:38 =

  =

  =

  =

  =

 

rbridge@postel= .org =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

=D6=F7=CC=E2

[rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

  =

  =

  =

 





During the = TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the
room to = make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a
call on = the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish = to
respond, please do so by April = 10th.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Donald E. Eastlake = 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA = 01757 USA
d3e3e3@gmail.com

______________________= _________________________
rbridge mailing list
rbridge@postel.org<= u>
http://mailman.postel.org/mail= man/listinfo/rbridge
_________= ______________________________________
rbridge mailing = list
rbridge@poste= l.org
http://mailma= n.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge


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------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD2.5B80DD75-- --===============0907740509== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0907740509==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 05:07:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA27821E8189 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:07:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.877 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.326, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, WEIRD_QUOTING=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7j3UpaHq7xQk for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B5A21E8182 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SBFUOL028112; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SBEMRs027930 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:14:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=118530; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332933271; x=1334142871; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to:cc; bh=sJUXphAFkarbp1SqJ4zWOtrGTu8DJN0yZ96dORp84rE=; b=OB1ZnSI3jTEQ/5g//xJprXoPaPWeRwqnKCV9tcjLunM6dxTDc5JUJgRr D5d9Vc5vz5ADwL2SY5dRSqC9zsw8mBi7olapNtX2oDBVImJe6BitD5JPm eN2/uHYHWn1l1HAl7/nzThZHvxeV+baQvctjfQ5tNBknjIWnInFo6wEc1 E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjwFALjxck+rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABCA4JGgnqqNgGIdoEHggkBAQEDAQEBAQ8BBwEBARADFyAHCwULAgEGAhEEAQELBhABBgEEAgEgBh8JCAEBBBMIEweHYwQBC5tXjQIIg2iOKIoAd4Jygg05YwSIWI4aiiCDFIFogweBPA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,661,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="34892876" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2012 11:14:21 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2SBELts006877; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:14:21 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:14:21 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:14:15 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0700@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RE: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: Ac0M0m2uj29h2SXwQxyP9/c8SStmiAAAE/Xw References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA06FB@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 11:14:21.0498 (UTC) FILETIME=[ECDA61A0:01CD0CD3] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: Donald Eastlake , rbridge@postel.org, Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan , rbridge-bounces@postel.org, hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0923978012==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0923978012== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD3.EC99AA15" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD3.EC99AA15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hongjun =20 I do not agree with your below statement that having two trees will = solve RPF issue in your case, based on various topology configurations, = you will end-up PN nickname having connected to both trees through the = same physical RBridge. This was the fundamental reason that Affinity TLV = was introduced in the first place. =20 Like I suggested in my other email probably it would be good if you can = consider affinity TLV in your solution so you can have flexibility to = apply your framework for both LAN and point-point multi-homed edge. =20 Thanks Tissa =20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:50 AM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org; Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan; rbridge-bounces@postel.org; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 See in-line, pls.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" =20 2012-03-28 17:03=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB =20 =B3=AD=CB=CD "Donald Eastlake" , , = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" , = , =20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =09 The static configuration required is only the virtual RB nickname.=20 ----[by Zhai]Besides the pseu-nickname, maybe which ports belonging to = current virtual group on a memnber RB are also required to be configured = in CMT draft.=20 =20 We discussed earlier in your proposal, to overcome RPF issues we need to = either=20 =20 1. Have tree rooted on each edge RBridge OR=20 2. Tunnel=20 #1 does not scale #2 a non standard behavior.=20 ----[by Zhai] PN draft doesn't not require DTree rooted on member RB or = PN node. The choice of campus-wide DTree roots can be as same as the = mechanism given in RFC6325.=20 So the #1 your given does not exist in PN draft. As for the #2 point, I = think it is the same to CMT draft and PN draft.=20 In the CMT if the number of tree are less we can either make a link = passive or optionally use tunneling.=20 -----[by Zhai] I think, for the issue that mumber of DTree are less = than member RB in a group, PN draft can use the same methods as CMT = draft to process this issue in the LAG scenario has no difference in = nature, i.e., making a link passive or using tunnel. In my mind, these = methods have been discussed in Radia's previous emails.=20 Lets assume we have 200 such virtual RBridges with dual homing in each = virtual RBRidge (i.e two RBridges in the block). In the CMT we just need = two trees to perform active-active forwarding.=20 =20 In your case either we need 400 trees (i.e. 2*200) or dataplane upgrade = to do tunneling. Both of them in my mind is not going to help.=20 -----[by Zhai] Since using PN node as root to form DTree is only = optional approch in PN draft, I don't think PN draft has special = requirements for the selection of DTree roots. Therefore, in your given = case, PN draft doesn't need so may trees. only two trees are or one = tree(if the two member RB in a given RB group are connected directly to = a DTree) is required to perform active-active forwarding.=20 =20 Additionally Affinity TLV enable so many different other applications = beyond active-active forwarding,=20 -----[by Zhai] Without backward compatibility issue, Affinity TLV maybe = is a good approach.=20 If you are still in Paris maybe we can meetup and go over some of the = issues.=20 ---- [by Zhai] I'd like to talk with you about this issue face to face, = but I do not attend this IETF meeting.=20 =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:47 AM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 =20 > Normally PN-LSP is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot see = LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ?=20 I think, DRB can be configured by adiminstrator in LAG scenario. And = another member is used to detect the failure of this "DRB". If finding = DRB failed, the detecting member RB becomes DRB and annouce new = PN-LSPs.=20 I think, static configurations are required in LAG scenario both in your = CMT draft and my PN draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" >=20 2012-03-28 16:33=20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD "Donald Eastlake" >, = >, "Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan" >, >, >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =09 You quoted =A1=B0No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. = Only one Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The = pseudo-nickname and all the members of this group will be carried in = this LSP.=A1=B1=20 =20 Normally PN-LSP is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges cannot see LAN = hellos how does the DRB get elected ?=20 =20 =20 =20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn = [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn ]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:15 AM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = ; Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; = rbridge@postel.org ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org =20 Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 = to WG draft=20 =20 See in-line, pls.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" >=20 2012-03-28 15:23=20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB >, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD "Donald Eastlake" >, = >, = >, = >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =09 See in-line=20 From: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn = [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn ]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM To: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = ; rbridge@postel.org = ; rbridge-bounces@postel.org = ; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi Jana=A3=AC=20 In PN draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to = form a DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had = considered using PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would = not be as many trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node = as root is only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in = PN draft, which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree.=20 In the later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a virtual = RBridge Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any formed = DTree. If this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward (or = tunnel) the received native traffic to another member RBridge that = directly attaches to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later = RBridge ingresses the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF = check on a remote RBridge.=20 [Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other. =20 -------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 I don't think Hellos are necessary for PN draft. Hellos are used to find = member Rbridges and nogotiate psuedu-nickname in a virtual Rbridge = group. In LAG scenario, pseudo-nickname and members for a virtual = RBridge group should be configured statically by a network = administrator. Based on static configuration, each member Rbdiges in = this group will know this nickname and all other paterners, therefore = Hellos are not required.=20 --------=20 Hence each one of them form a separate PN.=20 -------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this LSP.=20 ----------=20 Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel traffic. It does not = matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid this. Tunneling Traffic = is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and this cannot be = considered as the standard solution.=20 ------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 If the number trees is less than the mumber of members in a RB group, = and all the member s are active, tunneling traffic can not be avoided in = your CMT and my PN draft.=20 --------=20 1. Use of PN as the root is non scalable=20 ------ [by Zhai Hongjun]=20 PN draft dosen't require PN node as root for forming DTrees. PN node as = root is only an optional approach. So the scalabity for this point does = not exist.=20 -------=20 2. Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane behavior=20 --------[by Zhai Hongjun]=20 see the above answer.=20 --------=20 Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your draft can = not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt edges.=20 ------- [by Zhai Hongjun]=20 I don't think so.=20 --------=20 I have no problem with your draft to be discussed as a potential way for = LAN. But it is not the solution for multi-homed active-active edge.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=20 Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan >=20 2012-03-28 14:27=20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn " = >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake >, = "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn " = >, = "rbridge@postel.org " >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = " >, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" = >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 I think the other point in the pN draft is=20 The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with the = PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.=20 A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, but since = this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt that the = requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be possible.=20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 The main difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:=20 1) In PN draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry = pseudo-nickname and members of a virtual RBridge group,=20 2) While in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry = pseudo-nickname and the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.=20 > 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1,=20 > RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello frame on this = link towards CE1,=20 > this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept=20 > of AF will not be applicable in this scenario=20 In PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual=20 RBridge group. For a virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and = pseudo-nickname are configured statically=20 by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are not requisite in PN draft. = Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft,=20 i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using pseudo-LSP = to carry information of this RBridge group,=20 is also applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). = Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid the = backward compatibility issue.=20 > 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network,=20 > and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft = the links are=20 > all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent = to only one of=20 > the RB1 and not to all of them.=20 Although the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly = based on Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname=20 and employing pseudo-LSP to carry RB Group info is also applicable in = other scenario, such as LAGs and multi-homing.=20 Whether using one member RB or all member RBs to forward traffic for an = end system, it depends on in which scenario the=20 pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement the = pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=20 Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan >=20 2012-03-28 00:09=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn " = >, "Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" = >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD Donald Eastlake >, = "rbridge@postel.org " >, "rbridge-bounces@postel.org = " >, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn = " >=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Zhai,=20 Few points:=20 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a TRILL hello = frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by any of the = other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not be = applicable in this scenario=20 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and out = of this network, and this is because it is regular Ethernet link. But in = the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence the traffic (for e.g. = broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 and not to all of = them.=20 So I think the problem space that these two drafts are discussing are = different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be applicable to the LAG = active-active load balancing scenarios described in the CMT draft.=20 Thanks=20 Jana=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org ] = On Behalf Of zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:49 PM To: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org ; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn =20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi Tissa=20 In your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for backward compatibility in = CMT. So CMT can not work until all the RBridges support affinitive-TLV.=20 However, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN = draft employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of = a virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work for the scenario described in your CMT draft.=20 Thanks, Zhai Hongjun """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012 Zhai Hongjun Tel: +86-25-52877345 Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn =20 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=20 "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = =20 2012-03-27 18:12=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB >, "Donald = Eastlake" >=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD rbridge@postel.org , = rbridge-bounces@postel.org =20 =D6=F7=CC=E2 Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 Hi Hu=20 CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility and your assessment of = RPF failure when older RBridges present is incorrect.=20 Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the scenario = described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, most Data = Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to the TRILL = edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because of the = LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology in the = draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment scenario.=20 Thanks=20 Tissa=20 From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org ] = On Behalf Of hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn =20 Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:41 PM To: Donald Eastlake Cc: rbridge@postel.org ; = rbridge-bounces@postel.org =20 Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=20 Hi,all=20 We have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only = if all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, = the CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the = virtual RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC = check failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve = is not an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a = optional solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder = whether the CMT will does work actually because of the back = compatibility issue.=20 There is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.=20 Thanks=20 Donald Eastlake >=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = =20 2012-03-27 06:38=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB rbridge@postel.org =20 =B3=AD=CB=CD =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 During the TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the room to make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a call on the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish to respond, please do so by April 10th. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com =20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org =20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = =20 _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org =20 http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge = =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others.=20 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender.=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication = is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD3.EC99AA15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Hongjun

 

I do not agree with your below statement that having two trees will = solve RPF issue in your case, based on various topology configurations, = you will end-up PN nickname having connected to both trees through the = same physical RBridge. This was the fundamental reason that Affinity TLV = was introduced in the first place.

 

Like I suggested in my other email probably it would be good if you = can consider affinity TLV in your solution so you can have flexibility = to apply your  framework for both LAN and point-point multi-homed = edge.

 

Thanks

Tissa

 

From:= = rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn
Sent: Wednesday, March = 28, 2012 2:50 AM
To: Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@postel.org; = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; rbridge-bounces@postel.org; = hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: RE: = RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 


See in-line, = pls.



T= hanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn
&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""



"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com><= span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =

2012-03-28 = 17:03

<zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn>

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

"Donald = Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <jana@force10networks.com>= , <rbridge@postel.org>, = <rbridge-bounces@postel.org= >

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: RE: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

 




The static configuration required is only the virtual RB = nickname.
----[by Zhai]Besides the pseu-nickname, maybe which ports belonging = to current virtual group on a memnber RB are also required to be = configured in CMT draft.
 
We discussed earlier in your proposal, to overcome RPF issues we need = to either
 
1.       Have tree rooted on each edge RBridge = OR
2.       Tunnel
#1 does not scale #2 a non standard behavior.
 ----[by Zhai] PN draft doesn't not require DTree rooted on = member RB or PN node. The choice of campus-wide DTree roots can be as = same as the mechanism given in RFC6325.
So the #1 your given does not exist in PN draft. As for the #2 point, = I think it is the same to CMT draft and PN draft.

In the CMT if the number of tree are less we can either make a link = passive or optionally use tunneling.
-----[by Zhai]  I think, for the issue that  mumber of = DTree are less than member RB in a group,  PN draft can use the = same  methods as CMT draft to process  this issue in the LAG = scenario has no difference in nature, i.e., making a link passive or = using tunnel. In my mind, these methods have been discussed in Radia's = previous emails.

Lets assume we have 200 such virtual RBridges with dual homing in = each virtual RBRidge (i.e two RBridges in the block). In the CMT we just = need two trees to perform active-active forwarding.
 
In your case either we need 400 trees (i.e. 2*200) or dataplane = upgrade to do tunneling. Both of them in my mind is not going to = help.
-----[by Zhai] Since using PN node as root to form DTree is only = optional approch in PN draft, I don't think PN draft has  special = requirements for the selection of DTree roots. Therefore, in your given = case, PN draft doesn't need so may trees. only two trees are or one = tree(if the two member RB in a given RB group are connected directly to = a DTree) is required to perform active-active forwarding. =
 
Additionally Affinity TLV enable so many different other applications = beyond active-active forwarding,
 -----[by Zhai] Without backward compatibility issue, Affinity TLV maybe is a good approach.

If you are still in Paris maybe we can meetup and go over some of the = issues.
---- [by Zhai] I'd like to talk with you about this issue face to = face, but  I do not attend this IETF meeting.
 
From:= = zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn = [mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:47 AM
To: = Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn; = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; rbridge@postel.org; rbridge-bounces@postel.org=
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft
 

>  Normally PN-LSP  is announced by the DRB, since = RBRidges cannot see LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected = ? =

I think, DRB can be configured by adiminstrator in LAG scenario. = And  another member  is used to detect the failure of this = "DRB". If finding DRB failed,  the detecting member RB = becomes DRB and annouce new PN-LSPs.

I think, static configurations are required in LAG scenario both = in your CMT draft and my PN draft.


<= br>Thanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""

<= /o:p>

"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =

2012-03-28 = 16:33 =

 

<zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

"Donald = Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om>, = <hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <jana@force10ne= tworks.com>, = <rbridge@postel= .org>, = <rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org> =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft


  =

 





You quoted =A1=B0No, not each one member RB needs to form a = separate PN. Only one Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge = Group. The pseudo-nickname and all the members of this group will be = carried in this LSP.=A1=B1
 
Normally PN-LSP  is announced by the DRB, since RBRidges = cannot see LAN hellos how does the DRB get elected ?
 
 
 
From: zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.= hongjun@zte.com.cn] =
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:15 AM
To: Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn; = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan; rbridge@post= el.org; rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org
Subject:= = =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft
 

See= in-line, pls. =


<= br>Thanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""

"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =

2012-03-28 = 15:23 =

  =

 

<zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn>, = "Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan" <jana@force10ne= tworks.com> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

"Donald = Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om>, = <hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn>, = <rbridge@postel= .org>, = <rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org> =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

 





See in-line

From: zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn [mailto:zhai.= hongjun@zte.com.cn] =
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:03 AM
To: = Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: Donald Eastlake; hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn; rbridge@post= el.org; rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org; Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft


Hi = Jana=A3=AC

In = PN draft, it is optional but not necessary to use PN node as root to = form a DTree. When we wrote the 02 version of PN draft, we had = considered using PN node as root to form trees, but we found there would = not be as many trees as PN nodes (or virtual RBridge Groups). So PN node = as root is only an optional approach. Then another approach is given in = PN draft, which using PN node as an ordinary node in forming a DTree. =

In the later approach, maybe some the member RBridges of a = virtual RBridge Group are not attached directly to the PN node in any = formed DTree. If this happens, we propose such an RBridge should forward = (or tunnel) the received native traffic to another member RBridge that = directly attaches to the PN node at least in one DTree. Then the later = RBridge ingresses the traffic into TRILL campus to avoid failure of RPF = check on a remote RBridge.
[Answer] Here is the problem: when edge device is multi-homed to = multiple RBrdiges using pt-pt links and end device is deploying LAG; = RBridges can not see LAN Hellos of each other.  
-------[by Zhai Hongjun]
I don't think Hellos are necessary for PN draft. Hellos are used = to find member Rbridges and nogotiate psuedu-nickname in a virtual = Rbridge group.  In LAG scenario, pseudo-nickname and members for a = virtual RBridge group should be configured statically by a network = administrator. Based on static configuration,   each member Rbdiges = in this group will know this nickname and all other paterners, therefore =  Hellos are not required.
-------- =

Hence each one of them form a separate PN.
-------[by Zhai Hongjun]
No, not each one member RB needs to form a separate PN. Only one = Pseudo-LSP is required for a virtual Rbridge Group. The pseudo-nickname = and all the members of this group will be carried in this = LSP. =
----------

Now to avoid RPF violation you have to tunnel traffic. It = does not matter how many trees you have, you cannot avoid this. = Tunneling Traffic is not RFC 6325 defined data plane behavior and this = cannot be considered as the standard solution.
------[by Zhai = Hongjun] =
If the number trees is less than the mumber of members in a RB = group, and all the member s are active, tunneling traffic can not be = avoided in your CMT and my PN draft.
-------- =

1.       Use of PN as the root is non = scalable =
------ [by Zhai Hongjun]
PN draft dosen't require PN node as root for forming DTrees. PN = node as root is only an optional approach.  So the scalabity for = this point does not exist.
------- =

2.       Tunneling is non RFC 6325 dataplane = behavior =
--------[by Zhai Hongjun]
see the above answer.
-------- =

Hence, whatever the path you take solution proposed in your = draft can not be applied to larger deployments with Pt-pt = edges. =
------- [by Zhai Hongjun]
I don't think so.
-------- =

I have no problem with your draft to be discussed as a = potential way for LAN. But it is not the solution for multi-homed = active-active edge.


T= hanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""" =

Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10ne= tworks.com> =

2012-03-28 = 14:27 =

  =

  =

 

"<= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn" = <zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

Donald = Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om>, = "hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn" = <hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn>, = "rbridge@postel= .org" = <rbridge@postel= .org>, = "rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org" = <rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

  =

 





Hi Zhai,

I think the other point in the pN draft is
The requirement in the PN draft is that we should form a tree with = the PN node as the root of the tree. In case we have many LAN links, for = e.g. 10, than we would need 10 trees where each tree has the = corresponding PN as the root of the tree.
A similar approach was one of the options considered earlier, but = since this would not sale in terms of number of trees, it was felt that = the requirement that the PN be the root of the tree would not be = possible. =

Thanks =
Jana =

The = main difference between PN draft and CMT draft as follows:
1) In PN = draft, a member RBridge employs pseudo-LSP to carry pseudo-nickname and = members of a virtual RBridge group,
2) While = in CMT draft, Affinity TLV is introduced to carry pseudo-nickname and = the wanted DTrees by a member RBridge.

> = 1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. treat their = links to RB1,
> RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a = TRILL hello frame on this link towards CE1,
> = this will not be received by any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. = Hence the concept
> of = AF will not be applicable in this scenario

In = PN draft, TRILL hello is mainly used to find member RBridge and to = negotiate the pseudo-nickname of a virtual
RBridge group. For a = virtual RBridge group, if its member RBridges and pseudo-nickname are = configured statically
by a network administrator, TRILL hellos are = not requisite in PN draft. Therefore, the idea proposed in PN draft, =
i.e., giving a pseudo-nickname to an RBriges Group and using = pseudo-LSP to carry information of this RBridge group,
is also = applicable in the CMT scenario (given in figure 2 of CMT draft). =

Furthermore, using pseudo-LSP, instead of a new TLV, can avoid = the backward compatibility issue.


&= gt; 2) In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all traffic into and = out of this network,
> and this is because it is regular Ethernet = link. But in the CMT draft the links are
> all LAGs, and hence = the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of =
> the RB1 and not to all of them.

Altho= ugh the PN draft discusses the issues of pseudo-nickname mainly based on = Ethernet link, the idea of pseudo-nickname
and employing pseudo-LSP = to carry RB Group info is also applicable in other scenario, such as = LAGs and multi-homing.
Whether using one member RB or all member RBs = to forward traffic for an end system, it depends on in which scenario = the
pseudo-nickname is used, but not the different ways to implement = the pseudo-nickname function between PN draft and CMT draft.


T= hanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""

Janardhanan = Pathangi Narasimhan <jana@force10ne= tworks.com> =

2012-03-28 = 00:09 =

  =

  =

  =

 

"<= a href=3D"mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn" = <zhai.hongjun@z= te.com.cn>, = "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

Donald = Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om>, = "rbridge@postel= .org" = <rbridge@postel= .org>, = "rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org" = <rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org>, = "hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn" = <hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn> =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

  =

  =

 





Hi Zhai,

Few points:

1) In figure 2 of the CMT draft, the nodes CE1, CE2 etc. = treat their links to RB1, RB2=A1=AD RBk as a LAG. Hence if RB1 sends a = TRILL hello frame on this link towards CE1, this will not be received by = any of the other RBridges RB2, .. RB4. Hence the concept of AF will not = be applicable in this scenario

2)  In the PN draft, only the AF will forward all = traffic into and out of this network, and this is because it is regular = Ethernet link. But in the CMT draft the links are all LAGs, and hence = the traffic (for e.g. broadcast from CE1) is sent to only one of the RB1 = and not to all of them.

So I think the problem space that these two drafts are = discussing are different, and the Pseudo Node draft will not be = applicable to the LAG active-active load balancing scenarios described = in the CMT draft.

Thanks
Jana =


= From: rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org [mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of zhai.hongjun= @zte.com.cn
Sent: Tuesday, = March 27, 2012 4:49 PM
To: Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: Donald Eastlake; rbridge@post= el.org; rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org; hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn
Subject:= Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft


H= i Tissa =

In = your CMT draft, if one old RBridge is momitored not supporting = affinitive-TLV, the CMT function will be disbale in all the TRILL = campus. In my mind, that's your discussion for backward compatibility in CMT. So = CMT can not work until all the RBridges support = affinitive-TLV. =

Howev= er, in the PN draft, there is no such backward compatibiltiy. PN draft = employs pseudo-LSP to announce the pseudo-nickname and members of a = virtual RBridge. If the pseudo-nickname and the members are configured = statically by network administors, no hello PDUs are necessary between = the members of a virtual RB group. So the pseudo-LSP method given in PN = draft can also work for the scenario described in your CMT = draft. =


T= hanks,
Zhai = Hongjun
""""""""""&q= uot;"""""""""""&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """""""""""
Pro= tocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE = Corporation
No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, = P.R.China, 210012

Zhai Hongjun

Tel: = +86-25-52877345
Email: zhai.hongjun@= zte.com.cn
"&qu= ot;"""""""""""&quo= t;""""""""""""= ;""""""""""""= """"""""""""&= quot;"""""""""""&q= uot;""""""""

"Tissa = Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco= .com> =
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =  rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org =

2012-03-27 = 18:12 =

  =

  =

  =

  =

 

<hu.fangwei@zte= .com.cn>, = "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om> =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

rbridge@postel= .org, rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org =

=D6=F7=CC=E2

Re: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

  =

  =

  =

 





Hi Hu

CMT draft discuss about backward compatibility  and your = assessment of RPF failure when older RBridges present is = incorrect. =

Additionally I am not clear PN draft can be utilized for the = scenario described in the CMT. Per the discussion we have in Taipie, = most Data Centers and Enterprise have multi home devices connected to = the TRILL edge. They will not let LAN Hello to pass through them because = of the LAG bundling at the edge. Please refer to the reference topology = in the draft. Hence CMT draft address very crucial deployment = scenario. =

Thanks
Tissa =

From= : rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org [mailto:rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn
Sent: Monday, = March 26, 2012 9:41 PM
To: Donald Eastlake
Cc: = rbridge@post= el.org; rbridge-boun= ces@postel.org
Subject:= Re: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft


H= i,all =

We = have discussed that there is back compatibility issue for CMT. Only if = all the member RBridge of a virtual group support Affinity sub-tlv, the = CMT can work correctly. If one of the member does't announce the virtual = RBridge nickname and the Affinity sub-tlv, there may exist RPC check = failure for the virtual RBridge. The issue that CMT try to solve is not = an essential and key issue for trill, and CMT should be a optional = solution. Some RBridges may not implement the feature. I wonder whether = the CMT will does work actually because of the back compatibility = issue. =

There= is another solution (pseudonode nickname) solves the same issue. I = suggest we should do further discussion with CMT and compare with the = two solutions.

Thank= s =

Donald = Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.c= om> =
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =  rbridge-bounce= s@postel.org =

2012-03-27 = 06:38 =

  =

  =

  =

  =

  =

 

rbridge@postel= .org =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

=B3=AD=CB=CD

=D6=F7=CC=E2

[rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft



  =

  =

  =

  =

  =

  =

 





During the = TRILL session today, there was a consensus of those in the
room to = make draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00.txt a TRILL WG draft. This is a
call on = the WG mailing list to confirm that consensus. If you wish = to
respond, please do so by April = 10th.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Donald E. Eastlake = 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA = 01757 USA
d3e3e3@gmail.com

______________________= _________________________
rbridge mailing list
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http://mailman.postel.org/mail= man/listinfo/rbridge
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http://mailma= n.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge


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------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD3.EC99AA15-- --===============0923978012== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0923978012==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 05:11:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA28F21E8097 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:11:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.826 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.826 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.279, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OPUm5osQAbXO for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F96C21E8194 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SBh24X002501; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SBgJFr002381 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:42:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=28209; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332934948; x=1334144548; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:from:to:cc; bh=+NzXIxHTXG57ZBUSuuoxJnSaWbVrCvt0FZx7IsGaeaI=; b=gv84ahUlWkY6VcioS4z0vCzcq1/eryw4573+gIwqA40QacjC4HLixkPH C09NP80EvpWdy8fvPmvGWicXF/QyI6CfEES/QS+kPjQVwMey8R8qGmiZQ tws+yTLIAXdR81NxOxOIIgZRmNXS+kIC94y91GYjNE1L9AtioIqFGxe/r Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAD/4ck+tJV2b/2dsb2JhbABFhUCzLYEHggkBAQEEEgEJARADNQgMDAQCAQYCEQQBAQsGEAcBBAIBICUJCAIEARIIEweHZwGbY40CCJIRigCFdjljBIhYmDqDFIFogwc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,661,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="70050123" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2012 11:42:18 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2SBgI5q009364; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:42:18 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:42:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:42:15 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0705@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABe1QA== References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" , "Mingui Zhang" , "Radia Perlman" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 11:42:17.0790 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4003DE0:01CD0CD7] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1021528031==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1021528031== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD7.D3C687FD" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD7.D3C687FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One more point; if we are listing Pros and Cons, then we also need to = associate a priority.=20 e.g. control plane backward compatibility is a lower priority while = control plane backward compatibility is a higher priority. To recap: we have more TRILL drafts than actual TRILL RBridges out there = in deployments so backward compatibility of control plane is a mere = academic thought. _____________________________________________ From: Rohit Watve (rwatve)=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:23 AM To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Hi Mingui, 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES. CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity = tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv. Also, consider adding following to the comparison table Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity) PN: 3 CMT: 1 MTRA: multiple Thanks Rohit -----Original Message----- From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Radia, It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are = three candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions. 1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able. PN: YES. CMT: NO. MTRA: YES. 2. Use only existing silicons.=20 PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop. CMT: YES. MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it = is a "YES". 3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES.=20 The following table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also = attached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our = follow-up.=20 +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= |Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast = Converge| +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |PN |YES |NO |NO |NO |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |CMT |NO |YES |YES |YES |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |MTRA |YES |YES(will) |YES |YES |YES = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= Thanks, Mingui =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52 =B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft It is my understanding that a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are = active/active RBs on any link =20 Of course, no solution is ideal. It might have been nice to write up = all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's still worth doing. =20 So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link: =20 First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, = unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode nickname when encapsulating unicast. =20 Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the = pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without = any problems. =20 However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees, here were some of the proposed solutions. So, let's say that R1 and = R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate = a multidestination frame: =20 1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet = (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus. =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: more hops, might be difficult in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be = difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet. =20 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in = this case =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the = pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast, or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to = encapsulate a multidestination frame from S). =20 ------ There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work. =20 Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages = I mentioned above, but I can live with it. =20 Radia=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD7.D3C687FD Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

One more point; if we are = listing Pros and Cons, then we also need to = associate a priority.

e.g. control plane = backward compatibility is a lower priority while control plane backward compatibility is a higher = priority.

To recap: we have more TRILL drafts than actual TRILL = RBridges = out there in deployments so = backward compatibility of control plane is a mere academic thought.

_____________________________________________
From: Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 = 3:23 AM
To: Mingui Zhang; = Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast = convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the = two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The = new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A = overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: = YES.

CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge = advertizing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other = Egress Rbridge ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding following to the comparison = table

Number of New TLVs (and resulting = complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit


-----Original Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi = Radia,

It is a good = idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three = candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions.

1. Whether the = solution is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: = YES.

CMT: = NO.

MTRA: = YES.

2. Use only = existing silicons.

PN: NO. New = silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a = "YES".

3. Multi-cast = traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: = NO.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = YES.

4. Multi-cast = traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: = NO.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = YES.

5. Fast = convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the = two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The = new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A = overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES. =

The following = table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just = in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up. =

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB = Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|PN      = |YES         = |NO         = |NO        = |NO          = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|CMT     = |NO          = |YES        = |YES       = |YES         = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|MTRA    = |YES         |YES(will)  = |YES       = |YES         = |YES          = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui




=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft









It is my = understanding that

a) CMT does = require changing all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT = requires there be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs = on any link

 

Of course, no = solution is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the = proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth = doing.

 

So from = memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link:

 

First note: = regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast = works, and they can use the pseudonode

nickname when = encapsulating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's = port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode = nickname for that link when encapsulating

multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check = will work without any problems.

 

However, if = Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees,

here were some = of the proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to = the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the = link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a = multidestination frame:

 

1) R3 could = tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with = pseudonode nickname) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't = affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible.  Con: more hops, might be difficult

in some = implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for = R2 to accept a tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could = use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this = case

 

Pro: Doesn't = affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible.  Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will = have

frequent = learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode = nickname (whenever S sends unicast,

or multicast = through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a = multidestination frame from S).

 

------

There might = have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work.

 

Personally, I = don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned = above, but I can live with it.

 

Radia =




------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD7.D3C687FD-- --===============1021528031== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1021528031==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 05:32:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F97021E81C5 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:32:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.252, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5nK3RFX4HbYA for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C5321E81A9 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SBquI8004173; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SBqEj7004072 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=tsenevir@cisco.com; l=31022; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1332935543; x=1334145143; h=mime-version:subject:date:message-id:references:from:to; bh=MV0dhBsX+bzIpvK1EGsf5noy6EYtht+Fones3AnEMAc=; b=AkdQ3/XYdiE40556g69kQBYXCFTmPyr6tDdvfopt/7W586qhYbE5xoKF u2P92OtWp7HUTDDFJxbluyLwjq476vPWpJjPrf+fTiIyREH8Pyt2JG77a qN1YMr2q+KhAJAx33yeJvDghTcKQoWiSrNH7dWBIMwKUqai890D5SPcxW I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFANb6ck+rRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABFhUCzLYEHggkBAQEEEgEJARADNQgYBAIBBgIRBAEBCwYQAQYBBAIBICUJCAIEEwgTB4dnAZtnjQIIkhKKAIV2OWMEiFiYOoMUgWiDBw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,661,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="38012474" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2012 11:52:14 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2SBqE3p002488 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:52:14 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.145]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:52:14 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:52:11 -0700 Message-ID: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA070B@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABe1QIAAAxvg References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com><4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com><344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2012 11:52:14.0250 (UTC) FILETIME=[3784D0A0:01CD0CD9] X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: tsenevir@cisco.com Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1868005744==" Sender: rbridge-bounces@postel.org Errors-To: rbridge-bounces@postel.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1868005744== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD9.3773CE25" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD9.3773CE25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just want to correct a typo: Control plane backward compatibility is a lower priority and dataplane = backward compatibility is a higher priority. _____________________________________________ From: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:42 AM To: Rohit Watve (rwatve); 'Mingui Zhang'; 'Radia Perlman' Cc: 'rbridge@postel.org' Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft One more point; if we are listing Pros and Cons, then we also need to = associate a priority.=20 e.g. control plane backward compatibility is a lower priority while = control plane backward compatibility is a higher priority. To recap: we have more TRILL drafts than actual TRILL RBridges out there = in deployments so backward compatibility of control plane is a mere = academic thought. _____________________________________________ From: Rohit Watve (rwatve)=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:23 AM To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Hi Mingui, 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES. CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity = tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID = advertizing affinity tlv. Also, consider adding following to the comparison table Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity) PN: 3 CMT: 1 MTRA: multiple Thanks Rohit -----Original Message----- From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On = Behalf Of Mingui Zhang Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft Hi Radia, It is a good idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are = three candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions. 1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-able. PN: YES. CMT: NO. MTRA: YES. 2. Use only existing silicons.=20 PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop. CMT: YES. MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it = is a "YES". 3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced. PN: NO. CMT: YES. MTRA: YES. 5. Fast convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one = of the two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.=20 PN: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed. CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary. MTRA: YES.=20 The following table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also = attached just in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our = follow-up.=20 +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= |Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast = Converge| +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |PN |YES |NO |NO |NO |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |CMT |NO |YES |YES |YES |NO = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|= |MTRA |YES |YES(will) |YES |YES |YES = | +--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------+= Thanks, Mingui =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52 =B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft It is my understanding that a) CMT does require changing all the RBs in the campus b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are = active/active RBs on any link =20 Of course, no solution is ideal. It might have been nice to write up = all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's still worth doing. =20 So from memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link: =20 First note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, = unicast works, and they can use the pseudonode nickname when encapsulating unicast. =20 Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the = pseudonode nickname for that link when encapsulating multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without = any problems. =20 However, if Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees, here were some of the proposed solutions. So, let's say that R1 and = R2's port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate = a multidestination frame: =20 1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet = (with pseudonode nickname) into the campus. =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: more hops, might be difficult in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be = difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet. =20 2) R3 could use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in = this case =20 Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible. Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will have frequent learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the = pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unicast, or multicast through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to = encapsulate a multidestination frame from S). =20 ------ There might have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work. =20 Personally, I don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages = I mentioned above, but I can live with it. =20 Radia=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD9.3773CE25 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Just want to correct a = typo:

Control plane backward compatibility is a lower priority and dataplane backward compatibility is a higher = priority.

_____________________________________________
From: Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 = 4:42 AM
To: Rohit Watve (rwatve); 'Mingui Zhang'; 'Radia = Perlman'
Cc: 'rbridge@postel.org'
Subject: RE: [rbridge] = Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

One more point; if we are listing Pros and Cons, then = we also need to associate a priority.

e.g. control plane backward compatibility is a lower = priority while control plane backward compatibility is a higher = priority.

To recap: we have more TRILL drafts than actual TRILL = RBridges out there in deployments so backward compatibility of control = plane is a mere academic thought.

_____________________________________________
From: Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 = 3:23 AM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne = (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast = convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the = two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The = new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A = overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: = YES.

CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge = advertizing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other = Egress Rbridge ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding following to the comparison = table

Number of New TLVs (and resulting = complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit


-----Original Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: = [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi = Radia,

It is a good = idea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three = candidate solutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA = (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in = the following dimensions.

1. Whether the = solution is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: = YES.

CMT: = NO.

MTRA: = YES.

2. Use only = existing silicons.

PN: NO. New = silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC = addresses may flip-flop.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = Currently NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a = "YES".

3. Multi-cast = traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: = NO.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = YES.

4. Multi-cast = traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: = NO.

CMT: = YES.

MTRA: = YES.

5. Fast = convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the = two main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses = whether the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there = is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The = new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A = overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES. =

The following = table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just = in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up. =

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB = Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|PN      = |YES         = |NO         = |NO        = |NO          = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|CMT     = |NO          = |YES        = |YES       = |YES         = |NO           = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------|

|MTRA    = |YES         |YES(will)  = |YES       = |YES         = |YES          = |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+---------= ---+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui




=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org = [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman = [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for = draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft









It is my = understanding that

a) CMT does = require changing all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT = requires there be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs = on any link

 

Of course, no = solution is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the = proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth = doing.

 

So from = memory...other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be = active/active/active on a link:

 

First note: = regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast = works, and they can use the pseudonode

nickname when = encapsulating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's = port to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode = nickname for that link when encapsulating

multidestination frames for ingress, and the RPF check = will work without any problems.

 

However, if = Ri's port to the link is not in any of the trees,

here were some = of the proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to = the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the = link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a = multidestination frame:

 

1) R3 could = tunnel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with = pseudonode nickname) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't = affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible.  Con: more hops, might be difficult

in some = implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for = R2 to accept a tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could = use its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this = case

 

Pro: Doesn't = affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible.  Con: MAC learning in distant RBs will = have

frequent = learning changes of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode = nickname (whenever S sends unicast,

or multicast = through R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a = multidestination frame from S).

 

------

There might = have been some other proposals, but they wound up not to = work.

 

Personally, I = don't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned = above, but I can live with it.

 

Radia =




------_=_NextPart_001_01CD0CD9.3773CE25-- --===============1868005744== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============1868005744==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 07:10:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BE921E824E for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:10:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.249 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.198, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w-9bk317glMn for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397AE21E8190 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SDdJ4A006025; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [58.251.152.66]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SDcH5L005543 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1L00BP2KEW36@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:35:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0M1L00F41KEWZX@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for rbridge@postel.org; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:35:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml209-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AHV39896; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:35:20 +0800 Received: from SZXEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.93) by szxeml209-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.184) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:35:12 +0800 Received: from SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.100]) by szxeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.93]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:35:19 +0800 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:35:18 +0000 From: Mingui Zhang Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW3JicmlkZ2VdIENhbGwgZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXRpc3NhLXRyaWxsLWNt?= =?gb2312?Q?t-00_to_WG_draft?= In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [172.24.1.70] To: "Rohit Watve (rwatve)" , Radia Perlman , "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" Message-id: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE201@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAAAhXbw== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: zhangmingui@huawei.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Rohit=A3=AC

Thanks for offering the complementary dimen= sion. Yes, I agree that MT-TRILL requires new TLVs. But in case that MT is = already supported by TRILL, this is not a Cons of MTRA any more.

For the Fast Converge dimension. CMT does n= eed to "perform distribution tree assignment algorithm specified in se= ction 5.1" to change the assignment of affinities of aggregated member= s when there is a failure. 

Thanks,
Mingui
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rohit Watve (rwatve) [r= watve@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 18:22
=B5=BD: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast converg= ence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main pu= rposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the sol= ution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new= distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A over= all re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID<= /span> adver= tizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider adding following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of = Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft= -tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good id= ea to list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate so= lutions for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL f= or RBridge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the = solution is incrementally deploy-able.

PN: YES.=

CMT: NO.=

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only exi= sting silicons.

PN: NO. New sil= icon is necessary to support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses ma= y flip-flop.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently= NO. But after multi-topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES"= ;.

3. Multi-cast t= raffic up from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.<= /span>

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast t= raffic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.<= /span>

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast converg= ence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two main pu= rposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether the sol= ution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new= distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A over= all re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following t= able lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in ca= se.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------&#= 43;------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------= ------+

|Solution|Incre= -Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------&#= 43;------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------= ------|

|PN  =     |YES         |NO=          |NO    = ;    |NO        &nbs= p; |NO           |=

+--------&#= 43;------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------= ------|

|CMT  = ;   |NO          |YE= S        |YES    &nb= sp;  |YES         |NO &nb= sp;         |

+--------&#= 43;------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------= ------|

|MTRA &nbs= p;  |YES         |YES(will)&nb= sp; |YES       |YES    &n= bsp;    |YES        =   |

+--------&#= 43;------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------= ------+

Thanks,<= /span>

Mingui




=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]<= /p>

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)

Cc: rbridge@pos= tel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2= : Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft









It is my unders= tanding that

a) CMT does req= uire changing all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires= there be at least as many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link=

 

Of course, no s= olution is ideal.  It might have been nice to write up all the propose= d solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doi= ng.

 

So from memory.= ..other proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on= a link:

 

First note: reg= ardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and = they can use the pseudonode

nickname when e= ncapsulating unicast.

 

Also, if Ri's p= ort to the link is in at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname= for that link when encapsulating

multidestinatio= n frames for ingress, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri'= s port to the link is not in any of the trees,

here were some = of the proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the= shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the lin= k is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestinatio= n frame:

 

1) R3 could tun= nel it to one of {R1, R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode = nickname) into the campus.

 

Pro: Doesn't af= fect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  C= on: more hops, might be difficult

in some impleme= ntations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accep= t a tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could use= its own nickname instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't af= fect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  C= on: MAC learning in distant RBs will have

frequent learni= ng changes of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (wh= enever S sends unicast,

or multicast th= rough R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestinat= ion frame from S).

 

------

There might hav= e been some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I d= on't love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above,= but I can live with it.

 

Radia





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Hi Jana,

I think I should answer your question. I am Mingui Zhang.
Please refer to the draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang= -trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topic you are int= erested. As a starter draft on the RPFC using Multi-topology. I will be happy to receive your comments.

Thanks,
Mingui
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi= Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5=BD: Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Sen= evirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG = draft

Hi Zhai,

 

In the Multi-topology c= ase I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deployable. Assuming that = all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT except for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like t= his will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since a= ll the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Could you please explai= n how MT can work in such scenarios?


Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: rbridg= e-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft=

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast convergence on failure reco= very. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of "aggr= egation". This dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way t= o do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution tree n= eed to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration= is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

CMT does not need re= configuration. If one Rbridge adve= rtizing affinity tlv goes down, the tree can be rooted at the other Egress Rbridge ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Also, consider addin= g following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (= and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit

-----Original Message-----
From: rbrid= ge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui = Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.= org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to list the Pros = and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solutions for the same= RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBridge Aggregati= on). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.

1. Whether the solution is incremen= tally deploy-able.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing silicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to= support "tunneling" or else MAC addresses may flip-flop.<= /p>

CMT: YES.

MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi= -topology is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv c= an be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv c= an be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.

MTRA: YES.

5. Fast convergence on failure reco= very. We know that resilience is one of the two main purposes of "aggr= egation". This dimension discusses whether the solution offers a way t= o do fast failure recovery when there is a failure of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: NO. The new distribution tree n= eed to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration= is necessary.

MTRA: YES.

The following table lists all above= comparisons (A jpg version is also attached just in case.). MTRA is always= YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incre-Deploy|Old Silicon|= LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|PN      |= YES         |NO   &n= bsp;     |NO        = |NO          |NO  &n= bsp;        |

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|CMT     |NO&nb= sp;         |YES   &= nbsp;    |YES       |YES =         |NO     = ;      |

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------|

|MTRA    |YES &= nbsp;       |YES(will)  |YES  =      |YES       &nbs= p; |YES          |

+--------+------------+= -----------+----------+------------+-------------+

Thanks,

Mingui



=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org] =B4=FA=B1= =ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman= @gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C22= 8= =C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD<= /span>: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)<= /span>

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7<= /span>=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-= cmt-00 to WG draft








It is my understanding that<= /p>

a) CMT does require changing all th= e RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there be at least a= s many trees as there are active/active RBs on any link

 

Of course, no solution is ideal.&nb= sp; It might have been nice to write up all the proposed solutions to this = and pros/cons. Maybe it's

still worth doing.

 

So from memory...other proposals fo= r allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link:

 

First note: regardless of whether t= heir port to the link is in a tree, unicast works, and they can use the pse= udonode

nickname when encapsulating unicast= .

 

Also, if Ri's port to the link is i= n at least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for that link when = encapsulating

multidestination frames for ingress= , and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

However, if Ri's port to the link i= s not in any of the trees,

here were some of the proposed solu= tions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's port to the shared link is in a= t least one tree, and R3's

port to the link is not in any of t= he trees, and R3 needs to encapsulate a multidestination frame:

 

1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1= , R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nickname) into the c= ampus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other t= han the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: more hops, might= be difficult

in some implementations for R3 to f= orward by tunneling, might be difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet.=

 

2) R3 could use its own nickname in= stead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other t= han the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC learning in = distant RBs will have

frequent learning changes of the so= urce MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname (whenever S sends unica= st,

or multicast through R1 or R2), or = being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestination frame from S).

 

------

There might have been some other pr= oposals, but they wound up not to work.

 

Personally, I don't love the CMT th= ing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but I can live with= it.

 

Radia




--Boundary_(ID_t+qqt68HIuUWcFtX/By9Sg)-- --===============0205666885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ rbridge mailing list rbridge@postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/rbridge --===============0205666885==-- From rbridge-bounces@postel.org Wed Mar 28 08:12:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-trill-archive-Osh9cae4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4EB21E829F for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.218, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GdDNsQYs2HhV for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E15D21E81AD for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SEn4c5019592; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.force10networks.com (maa.force10networks.com [59.163.202.254]) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q2SEmTJ4019229 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCH-CLUSTER-11.force10networks.com ([10.16.127.21]) by exch7-maa-fe.force10networks.com ([10.16.126.10]) with mapi; Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:18:18 +0530 From: Janardhanan Pathangi Narasimhan To: Mingui Zhang Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:22:07 +0530 Thread-Topic: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft Thread-Index: AQHNC6M4X8TnOZ/31Umc7no1WTsFHJZ9Cj0AgABclICAABKNgIABKjzxgAAYT0D//+PaAIAAy5WsgAAUHfCAABB74IAAKcBDgAASQ3A= Message-ID: References: <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA0303@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAD030@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <344037D7CFEFE84E97E9CC1F56C5F4A5DA05D7@xmb-sjc-214.amer.cisco.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE193@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E728CAE2F1@SZXEML507-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jana@force10networks.com Cc: "rbridge@postel.org" Subject: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft X-BeenThere: rbridge@postel.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developing a hybrid router/bridge." 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Hi Mingui= ,

 =

Section 4, does not give backward compatib= ility. For e.g. in section 4.2 multi destination frames will be ingressed w= ith two different bridge ID causing MAC move, and having to impose restrict= ions on hashing functions at the external node may or may not be acceptable= . I am not sure that this can be classified as backward compatible since i= t is not a full solution and can also cause frequent MAC flip flops etc.

 

=

In section 4.1, could you please explain how th= e frame that is ingressed by RB1 through RBv001 is received at RBx?

 

Thanks

Jana

 

 

From: Mingui Zhang [mailto:zhangmingui@huawei.com= ]
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:15 PM
To: Janardha= nan Pathangi Narasimhan
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject:= =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rbridge= ] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

=

 

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac= k'>Hi Jana,

 =

I think I should answe= r your question. I am Mingui Zhang.

Please refer to the draft http://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/draft-zhang-trill-multi-topo-rpfc-00. Section 4 is right for the topi= c you are interested. As a starter draft on the RPFC using Multi-topology. = I will be happy to receive your comments.

<= div>

 

Thanks,

Mingui

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Janardhanan Pathangi = Narasimhan [jana@force10networks.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 19:14
=B5=BD:<= /span> Rohit Watve (rwatve); Mingui Zhang; Radia Perlman; Tissa Sen= evirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rb= ridge@postel.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [rbridg= e] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

<= div>

Hi Zhai,

 

In t= he Multi-topology case I am not sure what is meant by incrementally deploya= ble. Assuming that all the RBridges in the campus do not understand MT exce= pt for the RBridges which participate in the Virtual RBrodge, it looks like= this will cause MAC flip flop on the other RBridges and other issues since= all the other RBridges do not understand MT.

 

Coul= d you please explain how MT can work in such scenarios?


Than= ks

Jana

 

 

Fro= m: rbridge-bou= nces@postel.org [mailto:r= bridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Rohit Watve (rwatve)
= Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:53 PM
To: Mingui Zhang; = Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: Re: [rbridg= e] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

 

Hi Mingui,

5. Fast c= onvergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the two m= ain purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses whether t= he solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a failur= e of an aggregated RBridge or link.

PN: N= O. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES.<= /span>

CMT does no= t need reconfiguration. If one Rbridge advertizing affinity tlv goes down, the= tree can be rooted at the other Egress= Rbridge ID advertizing affinity tlv.

Al= so, consider adding following to the comparison table

Number of New TLVs (and resulting complexity)

PN: 3

CMT: 1

MTRA: multiple

Thanks
Rohit<= /o:p>

-----Or= iginal Message-----
From: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [mailto:rbridge-bounces@postel.org] On Behalf Of Mingui Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:10 AM
= To: Radia Perlman; Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
Cc: rbridge@postel.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [rb= ridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft

Hi Radia,

It is a good idea to = list the Pros and Cons of each solution. There are three candidate solution= s for the same RPFC problem: PN, CMT and MTRA (Multi-Topology TRILL for RBr= idge Aggregation). Let me compare them in the following dimensions.<= span style=3D'color:black'>

1. Whether the solution is incrementally deploy-a= ble.

PN: YES.

CMT: NO.

MTRA: YES.

2. Use only existing silicons.

PN: NO. New silicon is necessary to support "tunneling" or = else MAC addresses may flip-flop.

CMT: YES= .

MTRA: Currently NO. But after multi-topo= logy is supported by TRILL, it is a "YES".

3. Multi-cast traffic up from RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.=

MTRA: YES.

4. Multi-cast traffic down to RBv can be load-balanced.

PN: NO.

CMT: YES.<= span style=3D'color:black'>

MTRA: YES.

5. Fa= st convergence on failure recovery. We know that resilience is one of the t= wo main purposes of "aggregation". This dimension discusses wheth= er the solution offers a way to do fast failure recovery when there is a fa= ilure of an aggregated RBridge or link. =

P= N: NO. The new distribution tree need to be recomputed.

CMT: NO. A overall re-configuration is necessary.

MTRA: YES. =

The fo= llowing table lists all above comparisons (A jpg version is also attached j= ust in case.). MTRA is always YES. I think it deserves our follow-up.

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+= ------------+-------------+

|Solution|Incr= e-Deploy|Old Silicon|LB Upwards|LB Downwards|Fast Converge|

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+-----------= -+-------------|

|PN   &nbs= p;  |YES         |NO &nbs= p;       |NO     &nb= sp;  |NO          |NO&nbs= p;          |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------= +-------------|

= |CMT   &nbs= p; |NO          |YES &nbs= p;      |YES       |= YES         |NO   &n= bsp;       |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+-------------|<= /span>

|MTRA    |YES  &n= bsp;      |YES(will)  |YES   &= nbsp;   |YES         |YES=           |

+--------+------------+-----------+----------+------------+= -------------+

<= span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black'>Thanks,

Mingui=

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rbridge-bounces@postel.org [rbridge-bounces@postel.org]= =B4=FA=B1=ED Radia Perlman [radiaperlman@gmail.com]

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA3=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:52

=B5=BD: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevi= r)

Cc: rbridge@postel.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rbridge] Call for draft-tissa-trill-cmt-00 to WG draft<= span style=3D'color:black'>






<= br>

It is my understanding that=

a) CMT does = require changing all the RBs in the campus

b) CMT requires there be at least as many trees as there are active/active= RBs on any link

 

Of course, no solution is ideal.  It might have been n= ice to write up all the proposed solutions to this and pros/cons. Maybe it'= s

still worth doing.

 

=

So from memory...other = proposals for allowing R1, R2, and R3 to be active/active/active on a link:=

 =

F= irst note: regardless of whether their port to the link is in a tree, unica= st works, and they can use the pseudonode

= nickname when encapsulating unicast.

 = ;

Also, if Ri's port to the link is in at = least one tree, Ri can use the pseudonode nickname for that link when encap= sulating

multidestination frames for ingre= ss, and the RPF check will work without any problems.

 

=

However, if Ri's port t= o the link is not in any of the trees,

her= e were some of the proposed solutions.  So, let's say that R1 and R2's= port to the shared link is in at least one tree, and R3's

port to the link is not in any of the trees, and R3 needs = to encapsulate a multidestination frame:=

&= nbsp;

1) R3 could tunnel it to one of {R1,= R2}, and let them inject the packet (with pseudonode nickname) into the ca= mpus.

 

Pro: Doesn't affect any RBs other than the ones on the link; backwards = compatible.  Con: more hops, might be difficult

in some implementations for R3 to forward by tunneling, might be= difficult for R2 to accept a tunneled packet.

 

2) R3 could use its own nickna= me instead of the pseudonode nickname in this case

 

= Pro: Doesn't affect any RB= s other than the ones on the link; backwards compatible.  Con: MAC lea= rning in distant RBs will have

frequent le= arning changes of the source MAC S between being on the pseudonode nickname= (whenever S sends unicast,

or multicast t= hrough R1 or R2), or being on R3 (when R3 has to encapsulate a multidestina= tion frame from S).

 

------

There might have = been some other proposals, but they wound up not to work.

 =

Personally, I don't= love the CMT thing because of the two disadvantages I mentioned above, but= I can live with it.

 

Radia