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From: "Samer Salam (ssalam)" <ssalam@cisco.com>
To: "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: TRILL OAM Framework
Thread-Index: AQHNWLU4Y56Vxpdf4UaUM/9CKstBUw==
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 00:46:02 +0000
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Cc: "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>, Sam Aldrin <sam.aldrin@gmail.com>
Subject: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
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Hi,
We have published=20
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-salam-trill-oam-framework which
describes a proposed reference framework for TRILL OAM. The framework
leverages concepts widely adopted in 802.1ag, RFC6136, RFC6371, etc...

We invite and welcome your feedback on the initial draft.

Thanks
Samer=20


From dromasca@avaya.com  Tue Jul  3 03:25:44 2012
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Thread-Topic: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
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References: <CC178ED8.796F%ssalam@cisco.com>
From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Samer Salam (ssalam)" <ssalam@cisco.com>, <trill@ietf.org>
Cc: "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>, Sam Aldrin <sam.aldrin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
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Hi,

I have two basic comments to start:=20

- The use of the OAM acronym conflicts with the recommendations in RFC
6291 / BCP 161 which recommends the OAM expansion in the IETF documents
to be Operations, Administration, and Maintenance
- 'OAM, in general, covers multiple areas, including: ...' - and then
FCAPS are listed. This is wrong. These are actually not 'aspects of OAM'
but the five functional areas in the OSI model for Network Management
defined in the 80s (ISO/IEC 7498-4).=20

I do not know if this confusion between OAM and network management is
intentional or not, but it's a confusion. OAM and Network Management are
different things, there are areas of interaction and relations between
the two, but they need to be kept distinct and such confusions need to
be avoided. =20

Regards,

Dan


> -----Original Message-----
> From: trill-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Samer Salam (ssalam)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 3:46 AM
> To: trill@ietf.org
> Cc: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir); Sam Aldrin
> Subject: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
>=20
> Hi,
> We have published
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-salam-trill-oam-framework which
> describes a proposed reference framework for TRILL OAM. The framework
> leverages concepts widely adopted in 802.1ag, RFC6136, RFC6371, etc...
>=20
> We invite and welcome your feedback on the initial draft.
>=20
> Thanks
> Samer
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill

From somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 05:36:40 2012
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From: somnath chatterjee <somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com>
To: trill@ietf.org
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Subject: [trill] [rbridge] Queries on draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00
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Hi Authors,

I have few queries regarding ESADI protocol as per
draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00, base RFC 6325 and RFC 6165.

1>In base RFC 6325 Section 4.2.4.4  (5.4)

"In addition, the LSP contains the following information on a per- VLAN basis:
      5.4. Per-VLAN ESADI protocol participation flag, priority, and
holding time.  If this flag is one, it indicates that the RBridge
wishes to receive such TRILL ESADI frames"

The per vlan ESADI protocol participation flag is send via "Interested
VLANs and Spanning Tree Roots Sub-TLV" in TRILL LSP.The per vlan ESADI
priority is send via "ESADI Parameter APPsub-TLV" in ESADI LSP 0. Is
the "holding time" same as "CSNP time" field in "ESADI Parameter
APPsub-TLV"?

2>The Inner.VLAN tag for ESADI LSP indicates the  VLAN to which the
ESADI-LSP applies, the vlan in MAC-Reachability TLV is unused.Why do
not we use the MAC-Reachability TLV's vlan field ? If we use
MAC-Reachability TLV's vlan field we can merge multiple ESADI-LSPs to
one ESADI LSP and reduce number of ESADI LSPs. Currently if we have 4k
VLANs enabled on an ESADI RBridge it has to send 4k ESADI LSPs. This
can be reduced using the MAC-Reachability TLV's vlan field.

3> What should be the deciding factor behind unicast-ing a ESADI LSP
and sending it on a DTree? Should it be the number of ESADI RBridges
in the campus?

4> If DTrees are already pruned, it would be good to send ESADI LSPs
on vlan pruned Dtree. Can we further prune these vlan pruned DTrees
based on the RBridges participating in ESADI for a particular vlan.

Thank you,
Regards,
Somnath

From tsenevir@cisco.com  Tue Jul  3 08:20:06 2012
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From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>
To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "Samer Salam (ssalam)" <ssalam@cisco.com>, "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
Thread-Index: AQHNWLU4Y56Vxpdf4UaUM/9CKstBU5cXVutQgABQLEA=
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 15:20:07 +0000
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References: <CC178ED8.796F%ssalam@cisco.com> <EDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A0407C4C62C@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com>
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Cc: Sam Aldrin <sam.aldrin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
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Dan

Thanks for the comments please see in-line.

-----Original Message-----
From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 3:26 AM
To: Samer Salam (ssalam); trill@ietf.org
Cc: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir); Sam Aldrin
Subject: RE: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework

Hi,

I have two basic comments to start:=20

- The use of the OAM acronym conflicts with the recommendations in RFC
6291 / BCP 161 which recommends the OAM expansion in the IETF documents to =
be Operations, Administration, and Maintenance

[Answer] According to RFC 6291, Operations (O of OAM) refers to activities =
related to  keep network up and running. Those includes finding problems be=
fore users are affected. These are the faults and performance issues.  It i=
s  very similar to RFC 6371, where it says "... OAM  procedures that fulfil=
l the MPLS-TP OAM requirements for fault, performance, and Protection-switc=
hing management ... ". So to our best of knowledge we believe it is in line=
 with 6291 and follow the other established RFC such as RFC 6371. However, =
 appreciate if you could specifically point out the conflicts and we are mo=
re than happy to correct/update/stream-line.  Are you referring to the same=
 usage case below ?

- 'OAM, in general, covers multiple areas, including: ...' - and then FCAPS=
 are listed. This is wrong. These are actually not 'aspects of OAM'
but the five functional areas in the OSI model for Network Management defin=
ed in the 80s (ISO/IEC 7498-4).=20

[Answer] If the reference is to what is listed towards end of the Introduct=
ion then we can fix the usage .

Reference Text cut and pasted below from Introduction..

   OAM, in general, covers multiple areas, including:
   - Fault Management
   - Performance Management
   - Configuration
   - Accounting
   - Security


I do not know if this confusion between OAM and network management is inten=
tional or not, but it's a confusion. OAM and Network Management are differe=
nt things, there are areas of interaction and relations between the two, bu=
t they need to be kept distinct and such confusions need to be avoided. =20

Regards,

Dan


> -----Original Message-----
> From: trill-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Samer Salam (ssalam)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 3:46 AM
> To: trill@ietf.org
> Cc: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir); Sam Aldrin
> Subject: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
>=20
> Hi,
> We have published
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-salam-trill-oam-framework which=20
> describes a proposed reference framework for TRILL OAM. The framework=20
> leverages concepts widely adopted in 802.1ag, RFC6136, RFC6371, etc...
>=20
> We invite and welcome your feedback on the initial draft.
>=20
> Thanks
> Samer
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill

From dromasca@avaya.com  Tue Jul  3 08:30:08 2012
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Thread-Topic: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
Thread-Index: AQHNWLU4Y56Vxpdf4UaUM/9CKstBU5cXVutQgABQLECAAAcAYA==
References: <CC178ED8.796F%ssalam@cisco.com> <EDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A0407C4C62C@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com> <FBEA3E19AA24F847BA3AE74E2FE19356017FEE@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com>
From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>, "Samer Salam (ssalam)" <ssalam@cisco.com>, <trill@ietf.org>
Cc: Sam Aldrin <sam.aldrin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
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Hi Tissa,

See in-line.=20

Regards,

Dan




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) [mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 6:20 PM
> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Samer Salam (ssalam); trill@ietf.org
> Cc: Sam Aldrin
> Subject: RE: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
>=20
> Dan
>=20
> Thanks for the comments please see in-line.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 3:26 AM
> To: Samer Salam (ssalam); trill@ietf.org
> Cc: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir); Sam Aldrin
> Subject: RE: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I have two basic comments to start:
>=20
> - The use of the OAM acronym conflicts with the recommendations in RFC
> 6291 / BCP 161 which recommends the OAM expansion in the IETF
documents
> to be Operations, Administration, and Maintenance
>=20
> [Answer] According to RFC 6291, Operations (O of OAM) refers to
> activities related to  keep network up and running. Those includes
> finding problems before users are affected. These are the faults and
> performance issues.  It is  very similar to RFC 6371, where it says
"...
> OAM  procedures that fulfill the MPLS-TP OAM requirements for fault,
> performance, and Protection-switching management ... ". So to our best
> of knowledge we believe it is in line with 6291 and follow the other
> established RFC such as RFC 6371. However,  appreciate if you could
> specifically point out the conflicts and we are more than happy to
> correct/update/stream-line.  Are you referring to the same usage case
> below ?


[[DR]] According to RFC 6291 M is for Maintenance.

>=20
> - 'OAM, in general, covers multiple areas, including: ...' - and then
> FCAPS are listed. This is wrong. These are actually not 'aspects of
OAM'
> but the five functional areas in the OSI model for Network Management
> defined in the 80s (ISO/IEC 7498-4).
>=20
> [Answer] If the reference is to what is listed towards end of the
> Introduction then we can fix the usage .
>=20
[[DR]] It's wrong IMO to claim that FCAPS is about OAM. FCAPS is about
Network Management. It does not cover accounting, and seldom carries
security information for example. The paragraph about 'multiple areas'
should be taken out completely. You do not need it, just say that you
focus on carrying faults and performance functionality.=20




> Reference Text cut and pasted below from Introduction..
>=20
>    OAM, in general, covers multiple areas, including:
>    - Fault Management
>    - Performance Management
>    - Configuration
>    - Accounting
>    - Security
>=20
>=20
> I do not know if this confusion between OAM and network management is
> intentional or not, but it's a confusion. OAM and Network Management
are
> different things, there are areas of interaction and relations between
> the two, but they need to be kept distinct and such confusions need to
> be avoided.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Dan
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: trill-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf
> > Of Samer Salam (ssalam)
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 3:46 AM
> > To: trill@ietf.org
> > Cc: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir); Sam Aldrin
> > Subject: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
> >
> > Hi,
> > We have published
> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-salam-trill-oam-framework
which
> > describes a proposed reference framework for TRILL OAM. The
framework
> > leverages concepts widely adopted in 802.1ag, RFC6136, RFC6371,
etc...
> >
> > We invite and welcome your feedback on the initial draft.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Samer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > trill mailing list
> > trill@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill

From ssalam@cisco.com  Tue Jul  3 10:23:56 2012
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From: "Samer Salam (ssalam)" <ssalam@cisco.com>
To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>, "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
Thread-Index: AQHNWLU4Y56Vxpdf4UaUM/9CKstBU5cXVutQgABQLECAAAcAYIAAADwA
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 17:24:01 +0000
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Hi Dan,

Thanks for your comments. We will incorporate in the next revision.

Regarding FCAPS, will clarify that these are Management Functional Areas
(MFAs) per ITU-T M3010, X.700 and X.701.

Regards,
Samer



On 12-07-03 8:30 AM, "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com> wrote:

>Hi Tissa,
>
>See in-line.=20
>
>Regards,
>
>Dan
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir) [mailto:tsenevir@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 6:20 PM
>> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Samer Salam (ssalam); trill@ietf.org
>> Cc: Sam Aldrin
>> Subject: RE: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
>>=20
>> Dan
>>=20
>> Thanks for the comments please see in-line.
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 3:26 AM
>> To: Samer Salam (ssalam); trill@ietf.org
>> Cc: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir); Sam Aldrin
>> Subject: RE: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> I have two basic comments to start:
>>=20
>> - The use of the OAM acronym conflicts with the recommendations in RFC
>> 6291 / BCP 161 which recommends the OAM expansion in the IETF
>documents
>> to be Operations, Administration, and Maintenance
>>=20
>> [Answer] According to RFC 6291, Operations (O of OAM) refers to
>> activities related to  keep network up and running. Those includes
>> finding problems before users are affected. These are the faults and
>> performance issues.  It is  very similar to RFC 6371, where it says
>"...
>> OAM  procedures that fulfill the MPLS-TP OAM requirements for fault,
>> performance, and Protection-switching management ... ". So to our best
>> of knowledge we believe it is in line with 6291 and follow the other
>> established RFC such as RFC 6371. However,  appreciate if you could
>> specifically point out the conflicts and we are more than happy to
>> correct/update/stream-line.  Are you referring to the same usage case
>> below ?
>
>
>[[DR]] According to RFC 6291 M is for Maintenance.
>
>>=20
>> - 'OAM, in general, covers multiple areas, including: ...' - and then
>> FCAPS are listed. This is wrong. These are actually not 'aspects of
>OAM'
>> but the five functional areas in the OSI model for Network Management
>> defined in the 80s (ISO/IEC 7498-4).
>>=20
>> [Answer] If the reference is to what is listed towards end of the
>> Introduction then we can fix the usage .
>>=20
>[[DR]] It's wrong IMO to claim that FCAPS is about OAM. FCAPS is about
>Network Management. It does not cover accounting, and seldom carries
>security information for example. The paragraph about 'multiple areas'
>should be taken out completely. You do not need it, just say that you
>focus on carrying faults and performance functionality.
>
>
>
>
>> Reference Text cut and pasted below from Introduction..
>>=20
>>    OAM, in general, covers multiple areas, including:
>>    - Fault Management
>>    - Performance Management
>>    - Configuration
>>    - Accounting
>>    - Security
>>=20
>>=20
>> I do not know if this confusion between OAM and network management is
>> intentional or not, but it's a confusion. OAM and Network Management
>are
>> different things, there are areas of interaction and relations between
>> the two, but they need to be kept distinct and such confusions need to
>> be avoided.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Dan
>>=20
>>=20
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: trill-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org] On
>Behalf
>> > Of Samer Salam (ssalam)
>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 3:46 AM
>> > To: trill@ietf.org
>> > Cc: Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir); Sam Aldrin
>> > Subject: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> > We have published
>> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-salam-trill-oam-framework
>which
>> > describes a proposed reference framework for TRILL OAM. The
>framework
>> > leverages concepts widely adopted in 802.1ag, RFC6136, RFC6371,
>etc...
>> >
>> > We invite and welcome your feedback on the initial draft.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Samer
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > trill mailing list
>> > trill@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill


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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 15:53:00 -0400
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To: somnath chatterjee <somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com>
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Cc: trill@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [trill] [rbridge] Queries on draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00
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Hi Somnath,

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 8:36 AM, somnath chatterjee
<somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Authors,
>
> I have few queries regarding ESADI protocol as per
> draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00, base RFC 6325 and RFC 6165.
>
> 1>In base RFC 6325 Section 4.2.4.4  (5.4)
>
> "In addition, the LSP contains the following information on a per- VLAN basis:
>       5.4. Per-VLAN ESADI protocol participation flag, priority, and
> holding time.  If this flag is one, it indicates that the RBridge
> wishes to receive such TRILL ESADI frames"
>
> The per vlan ESADI protocol participation flag is send via "Interested
> VLANs and Spanning Tree Roots Sub-TLV" in TRILL LSP.The per vlan ESADI
> priority is send via "ESADI Parameter APPsub-TLV" in ESADI LSP 0. Is
> the "holding time" same as "CSNP time" field in "ESADI Parameter
> APPsub-TLV"?

Yes, that is the intent. This draft proposes changes to ESADI from the
specification in RFC 6325.

> 2>The Inner.VLAN tag for ESADI LSP indicates the  VLAN to which the
> ESADI-LSP applies, the vlan in MAC-Reachability TLV is unused.Why do
> not we use the MAC-Reachability TLV's vlan field ? If we use
> MAC-Reachability TLV's vlan field we can merge multiple ESADI-LSPs to
> one ESADI LSP and reduce number of ESADI LSPs. Currently if we have 4k
> VLANs enabled on an ESADI RBridge it has to send 4k ESADI LSPs. This
> can be reduced using the MAC-Reachability TLV's vlan field.

That's only true if the ESADI RBridge is participating in ESADI for
all of those VLANs. And there are two reasons (1)
draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-vlan-mapping, and (2) if there were
information in an ESADI-LSP PDU for  say, two different VLANs, only
one of these could appear at the VLAN ID in the Inner.VLAN so there is
no way to guarantee that the PDU would get to RBridges participating
in ESADI only for the other VLAN due to distribution tree pruning (see
your question 4 below).

> 3> What should be the deciding factor behind unicast-ing a ESADI LSP
> and sending it on a DTree? Should it be the number of ESADI RBridges
> in the campus?

The text related to this aspect of the current ESADI draft could
probably do with review and clarification. Obviously, all the
destination ESADI RBridges have to indicate that they support unicast
receipt. I would say that, to a first approximation, it is best to use
unicast if their is one intended recipient and a distribution tree if
there are multiple recipients. There being only one intended recipient
for a particular ESADI-LSP does not imply that there are only two
ESADI RBridges for that VLAN.

> 4> If DTrees are already pruned, it would be good to send ESADI LSPs
> on vlan pruned Dtree. Can we further prune these vlan pruned DTrees
> based on the RBridges participating in ESADI for a particular clan.

Since ESADI--LSP PDUs are treated by transit RBridges like any other
multi-destination TRILL Data packet, they will automatically use any
distribution tree VLAN pruning available. Further pruning those trees
based on ESADI participation is an obvious improvement that will work
fine whether it is implemented for all or some of the RBridges in a
campus. But this wasn't included in the TRILL specifications because
it did not, at the time, seem worth the additional complexity. It
seemed like that in a well configured network, either none of the
RBridges interested in a particular VLAN would be ESADI participants
for that VLAN or all or almost all of them would be. Pruning on ESADI
participation does no good in the none or all cases and probably helps
most somewhere in the middle.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Thank you,
> Regards,
> Somnath

From dromasca@avaya.com  Wed Jul  4 09:56:00 2012
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Thread-Topic: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Samer Salam (ssalam)" <ssalam@cisco.com>, "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>, <trill@ietf.org>
Cc: Sam Aldrin <sam.aldrin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Samer Salam (ssalam) [mailto:ssalam@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 8:24 PM
> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir);
trill@ietf.org
> Cc: Sam Aldrin
> Subject: Re: [trill] TRILL OAM Framework
>=20
> Hi Dan,
>=20
> Thanks for your comments. We will incorporate in the next revision.
>=20
> Regarding FCAPS, will clarify that these are Management Functional
Areas
> (MFAs) per ITU-T M3010, X.700 and X.701.
>=20

Hi Samer,

This would work for me, but I think that the original definition of
FCAPS is the one in the OSI standard that I mentioned, first issued in
the mid 80s, and the ITU-T (and other) standards refer it.=20

Thanks for addressing my comments.=20

Regards,

Dan


From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 16:30:28 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
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Subject: [trill] Congestion Considerations for draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel
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--14dae93412413b516f04c4096b49
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In order to resolve a blocking AD comment, we probably need to add a
Congestion Considerations section to the draft. Attached is a draft of
such a section that we have come up with, starting from text in RFC
5085. Comments welcome.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

--14dae93412413b516f04c4096b49
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From: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [trill] Congestion Considerations for draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel
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Hi Donald,

This looks great to me. The only comment I have is the do we need to put in
a number like 5% into the document. I however agree it is to align with
RFC5085, so I understand the rationale.

I guess the guidance would be the same as it would be for say UDP or
applications running over IP.

-Vishwas


On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:

> In order to resolve a blocking AD comment, we probably need to add a
> Congestion Considerations section to the draft. Attached is a draft of
> such a section that we have come up with, starting from text in RFC
> 5085. Comments welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =============================
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>
>

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Hi Donald,<br><br>This looks great to me. The only comment I have is the do=
 we need to put in a number like 5% into the document. I however agree it i=
s to align with RFC5085, so I understand the rationale.<br><br>I guess the =
guidance would be the same as it would be for say UDP or applications runni=
ng over IP.<br>

<br>-Vishwas<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4=
:30 PM, Donald Eastlake <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">
In order to resolve a blocking AD comment, we probably need to add a<br>
Congestion Considerations section to the draft. Attached is a draft of<br>
such a section that we have come up with, starting from text in RFC<br>
5085. Comments welcome.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Donald<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =A0 <a href=3D"tel:%2B1-508-333-2270" value=3D"+1=
5083332270">+1-508-333-2270</a> (cell)<br>
=A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA<br>
=A0<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
trill mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:trill@ietf.org">trill@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--e89a8f2344759bb4a304c41578bc--

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Subject: Re: [trill] 802.1ag based messaging for TRILL OAM
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Hi Tissa & all
The proposed 802.1ag-based frame format seems to be at odds with some of 
the stated objectives in the OAM requirements doc. 
The requirements doc says that the solution needs to be able to discover 
the various components of an ecmp for traceroute, loopback/ping etc. 
However, 802.1ag was developed for an environment that wasn't ecmp 
capable, so the frame format doesn't lend itself naturally for performing 
ecmp discovery. In particular, consider this:

a) The proposed method for OAM packet identification, which for IP is by 
matching on a src IP (plus rbridge in the case of unicast IP), will make 
the OAM packet take a different route than that taken by the flow you're 
trying to debug. Note that this was not an issue for an 802.1ag based CE 
environment because as long as you get the vlan right, data packets and 
OAM packets will follow the same (only available) path.

b) Further in the doc, (section 5:Loopback Message) seems to imply that 
the selection of the ecmp path would be signalled from the ingress 
somehow. Let's say that your network looks like this:
A-B-C-D, where B is connected to C by 3 paths and C is connected to D, 
also by 3 paths. Let's say you want to send a loopback message from A to 
D. How does A signal that B needs to pick the "first link in the ecmp" and 
C needs to pick the "third link"? The writeup seems to imply this 
information is somehow embedded in the loopback OAM TLVs. If it is, are 
the authors proposing that existing TRILL hardware change to be able to 
parse these TLVs?

Or is the intent is for the TLVs to be parsed and acted upon by software 
on intermediate switches? If yes, it would limit the usefulness of these 
OAM tools. These OAM tools (traceroute/ping etc) need to allow us to 
verify the state of programmed hardware, not the software state in 
intermediate switches. 

Essentially, we need to either drop the ECMP discovery requirement in the 
requirements doc or come up with a messaging format that satisfies it 
using the normal hardware forwarding path. A framework that relies on 
software forwarding only verifies that the network can deal with OAM 
packets correctly. It says nothing about the fate of non-OAM packets which 
go through hardware without getting trapped to the software stack.

--
Sunny Rajagopalan






From:   "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>
To:     "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Date:   06/25/2012 08:53 PM
Subject:        [trill] 802.1ag based messaging for TRILL OAM
Sent by:        trill-bounces@ietf.org



Dear All
 
We have published draft-tissa-trill-8021ag, which presents use of 802.1ag 
messaging as a common framework between different technologies. We also 
have discussed the related TRILL OAM model.
 
This is the -00 version and would like to welcome your comments
 
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tissa-trill-8021ag
 
Thanks
Tissa_______________________________________________
trill mailing list
trill@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill


--=_alternative 0068FAE988257A32_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

<font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi Tissa &amp; all</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The proposed 802.1ag-based frame format
seems to be at odds with some of the stated objectives in the OAM requirements
doc. </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The requirements doc says that the solution
needs to be able to discover the various components of an ecmp for traceroute,
loopback/ping etc. However, 802.1ag was developed for an environment that
wasn't ecmp capable, so the frame format doesn't lend itself naturally
for performing ecmp discovery. In particular, consider this:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">a) The proposed method for OAM packet
identification, which for IP is by matching on a src IP (plus rbridge in
the case of unicast IP), will make the OAM packet take a different route
than that taken by the flow you're trying to debug. Note that this was
not an issue for an 802.1ag based CE environment because as long as you
get the vlan right, data packets and OAM packets will follow the same (only
available) path.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">b) Further in the doc, (section 5:Loopback
Message) seems to imply that the selection of the ecmp path would be signalled
from the ingress somehow. Let's say that your network looks like this:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A-B-C-D, where B is connected to C by
3 paths and C is connected to D, also by 3 paths. Let's say you want to
send a loopback message from A to D. How does A signal that B needs to
pick the &quot;first link in the ecmp&quot; and C needs to pick the &quot;third
link&quot;? The writeup seems to imply this information is somehow embedded
in the loopback OAM TLVs. If it is, are the authors proposing that existing
TRILL hardware change to be able to parse these TLVs?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Or is the intent is for the TLVs to
be parsed and acted upon by software on intermediate switches? If yes,
it would limit the usefulness of these OAM tools. These OAM tools (traceroute/ping
etc) need to allow us to verify the state of programmed hardware, not the
software state in intermediate switches. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Essentially, we need to either drop
the ECMP discovery requirement in the requirements doc or come up with
a messaging format that satisfies it using the normal hardware forwarding
path. A framework that relies on software forwarding only verifies that
the network can deal with OAM packets correctly. It says nothing about
the fate of non-OAM packets which go through hardware without getting trapped
to the software stack.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">--</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Sunny Rajagopalan</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&quot;Tissa Senevirathne
(tsenevir)&quot; &lt;tsenevir@cisco.com&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&quot;trill@ietf.org&quot;
&lt;trill@ietf.org&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">06/25/2012 08:53 PM</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[trill] 802.1ag
based messaging for TRILL OAM</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by: &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">trill-bounces@ietf.org</font>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">Dear All</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">We have published draft-tissa-trill-8021ag,
which presents use of 802.1ag messaging as a common framework between different
technologies. We also have discussed the related TRILL OAM model.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">This is the -00 version and would like
to welcome your comments</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font>
<br><a href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tissa-trill-8021ag"><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tissa-trill-8021ag</u></font></a>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">Thanks</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Calibri">Tissa</font><tt><font size=2>_______________________________________________<br>
trill mailing list<br>
trill@ietf.org<br>
</font></tt><a href=https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill><tt><font size=2>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
</font></tt>
<br>
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From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Thu Jul  5 18:26:16 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:26:09 -0400
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Subject: Re: [trill] TRILL OAM Requirements to WG draft
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There having been no objections, this draft is now a Working Group draft.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 5:56 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
> We will move draft-tissa-trill-oam-req to WG draft in a couple of weeks
> unless there are significant objections.
>
> Thanks,
> Donald
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =============================
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com

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To: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
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Cc: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, trill@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [trill] Congestion Considerations for draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel
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--0016e6d4f598e667fa04c4232b58
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This looks good to me as well.

Thanks,
Ayan


On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Donald,
>
> This looks great to me. The only comment I have is the do we need to put
> in a number like 5% into the document. I however agree it is to align with
> RFC5085, so I understand the rationale.
>
> I guess the guidance would be the same as it would be for say UDP or
> applications running over IP.
>
> -Vishwas
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In order to resolve a blocking AD comment, we probably need to add a
>> Congestion Considerations section to the draft. Attached is a draft of
>> such a section that we have come up with, starting from text in RFC
>> 5085. Comments welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =============================
>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> trill mailing list
>> trill@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>
>

--0016e6d4f598e667fa04c4232b58
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This looks good to me as well. <br><br>Thanks,<br>Ayan<br><br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Vishwas Manral <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vishwas.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">vi=
shwas.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Donald,<br><br>This looks great to me. Th=
e only comment I have is the do we need to put in a number like 5% into the=
 document. I however agree it is to align with RFC5085, so I understand the=
 rationale.<br>
<br>I guess the guidance would be the same as it would be for say UDP or ap=
plications running over IP.<br>

<br>-Vishwas<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">O=
n Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Donald Eastlake <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5">
In order to resolve a blocking AD comment, we probably need to add a<br>
Congestion Considerations section to the draft. Attached is a draft of<br>
such a section that we have come up with, starting from text in RFC<br>
5085. Comments welcome.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Donald<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =A0 <a href=3D"tel:%2B1-508-333-2270" value=3D"+1=
5083332270" target=3D"_blank">+1-508-333-2270</a> (cell)<br>
=A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA<br>
=A0<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.com</=
a><br>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
trill mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:trill@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">trill@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
trill mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:trill@ietf.org">trill@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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From liyizhou@huawei.com  Thu Jul  5 23:36:04 2012
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Subject: [trill] updated version of VLAN based trill selection
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Hi,

 

We have updated VLAN based tree selection draft
(http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yizhou-trill-tree-selection/) to
incorporate comments received.  Mainly on tree root failure handling.

We would like to invite your feedback and comments.

 

Thanks.

 

Yizhou 


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xmlns:mver=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006=
" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns:mrels=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/relationshi=
ps" xmlns:spwp=3D"http://microsoft.com/sharepoint/webpartpages" =
xmlns:ex12t=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/types"=
 =
xmlns:ex12m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/messag=
es" =
xmlns:pptsl=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/SlideLibrary/=
" =
xmlns:spsl=3D"http://microsoft.com/webservices/SharePointPortalServer/Pub=
lishedLinksService" xmlns:Z=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" =
xmlns:st=3D"&#1;" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 =
(filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
	{font-family:SimSun;
	panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
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	{font-family:"Cambria Math";
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/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0cm;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	color:purple;
	text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
	{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
	color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
	{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page WordSection1
	{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
	margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
	{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We have =
updated VLAN based tree selection draft (<a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yizhou-trill-tree-selection=
/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yizhou-trill-tree-selection/</a>=
) to incorporate comments received. &nbsp;Mainly on tree root failure =
handling.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We would like to invite =
your feedback and comments.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yizhou =
<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_050F_01CD5B84.A58993C0--

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Sat Jul  7 09:44:09 2012
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Subject: [trill] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-oam-req-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Li=
nks Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Requirements for Operations, Administration and Maintena=
nce (OAM) in TRILL
	Author(s)       : Tissa Senevirathne
                          David Bond
                          Sam Aldrin
                          Yizhou Li
                          Rohit Watve
                          Anoop Ghanwani
                          Naveen Nimmu
                          Radia Perlman
                          Tal Mizrahi
	Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-oam-req-00.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2012-07-07

Abstract:
   OAM (Operations, Administration and Maintenance) is a general term
   used to identify functions and toolsets to troubleshoot and monitor
   networks. This document presents, OAM Requirements applicable to
   TRILL. Also presented in this document is the proposed frame
   structure for TRILL OAM messages.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-oam-req

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-oam-req-00


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 14:52:56 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 17:52:54 -0400
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To: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>
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Cc: Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>, "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [trill] Should we adopt draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge-05.txt as a WG document?
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Hi Tissa,

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)
<tsenevir@cisco.com> wrote:
> Dear All
>
> I have some clarifications and suggestions.
>
> 1. Currently TRILL charter says the following
> "2) Development, within the TRILL protocol context, of requirements
> and specifications for broadcast/multicast (multi-destination) frame
> reduction; e.g., ARP/ND (Neighbor Discovery) reduction through use
> of the TRILL ESADI protocol."

ARP/ND is just an example of one type of multi-destination traffic and
ESADI is one mechanism that could help with ARP/ND reduction.

> I would like to propose to make this framework document a more
> generic document that address framework for "broadcast/multicast
> reduction in TRILL" and make ESADI and Directory assisted as part of
> that and also explain how they fit in to the overall framework.
> Otherwise it is kind of odd to have a framework for just one
> approach and not the other.

This document is the framework for directory assisted edge. Besides
that technique and ESADI, there is also multi-destination frame
reduction material in draft-perlman-trill-rbridge-multilevel-04.txt
Section 4.2. If someone wants to do a draft talking about the general
problems of broadcast domain scaling, multi-destination frames, and
the like, that would be fine, but that doesn't seem like this draft.

> 2. Based on the TRILL WG web page this draft has a related IPR. If
> we are proposing to move this as a framework document to the WG
> status, it is important to clarify how the IPR applies to solutions
> coming from the framework. In general sense it may not be a good
> idea to have a framework document that has IPR restrictions. Because
> framework documents are too broad in scope.

<Comments As An Individual>
I don't see how much clarification could be done without an
undersireable amount of patent discussion. Anyone who wants to can go
look at the disclosure and the international patent application and
its initial rejection by the selected international search agency, all
of which are, I believe, a matter of public record.

Some people tell me that filing a disclosure against a framework
document just "isn't done" and you should only file against more
technical documents. I have looked at RFC 3979 and don't see any basis
forthat. If you have IPR that covers any part of the ideas in a draft,
even if it is a framework draft, it looks to me like your are required
to file. As the sole inventor and personal owner of the cited
international patent application and a co-author of the draft and a
holder of the office of WG Co-Chair, it seems to me that I should be
particularly careful to file disclosures, even in cases were where it
may not be so clear I am required to.
</Comments As An Individual>

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Thanks
> Tissa
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trill-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Nordmark
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:48 AM
> To: trill@ietf.org
> Subject: [trill] Should we adopt draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge-05.txt as a WG document?
>
>
> <http://http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge-05>
>
> We've discussed earlier versions of this document in the WG in the past, and it seems like useful information for a technique that helps with ARP and ND scaling. It does not include any protocol changes or extensions.
>
> The document is intended as an informational document (it says "Intended
> status: Standard Track" but that is incorrect) explaining how directories can fit into TRILL.
>
> Note that there is claimed IPR associated with the draft:
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1788/>
>
> Please send comments to the TRILL list before June 27.
>
> Thanks,
>    Erik

From nordmark@acm.org  Sun Jul  8 06:24:38 2012
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Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 06:24:48 -0700
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Subject: [trill] draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge-05.txt as a WG document
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Based on the discussion on the list, there is consensus to adopt this as 
an informational framework document.

The authors should make it more clear in the draft that this is the 
problem statement and the framework.

    Erik

On 6/14/12 11:48 AM, Erik Nordmark wrote:
>
> <http://http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge-05>
>
>
> We've discussed earlier versions of this document in the WG in the past,
> and it seems like useful information for a technique that helps with ARP
> and ND scaling. It does not include any protocol changes or extensions.
>
> The document is intended as an informational document (it says "Intended
> status: Standard Track" but that is incorrect) explaining how
> directories can fit into TRILL.
>
> Note that there is claimed IPR associated with the draft:
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1788/>
>
> Please send comments to the TRILL list before June 27.
>
> Thanks,
>     Erik
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>



From nordmark@acm.org  Sun Jul  8 07:26:55 2012
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Subject: [trill] Agenda items for Vancouver?
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Please send any requests for agenda time to Donald and me.

    Erik

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jul  9 10:44:23 2012
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Li=
nks Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : TRILL Edge Directory Assistance Framework
	Author(s)       : Linda Dunbar
                          Donald Eastlake
                          Intel Labs
                          Igor Gashinsky
	Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-directory-framework-00.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2012-07-09

Abstract:
   Edge RBridges currently learn the mapping between MAC addresses and
   their egress RBridges by observing the data packets traversed
   through. When ingress RBridge receives a data frame with its
   destination address (MAC&VLAN) unknown, the data frame is flooded
   across the TRILL campus. When there are more than one RBridge ports
   connected to one bridged LAN, only one of them can be designated as
   AF port for forwarding/receiving traffic for each LAN, the rest have
   to be blocked for that LAN.

   This draft describes the framework for using directory service to
   assist edge RBridges to improve TRILL network scalability in data
   center environment.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-directory-framework

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-directory-framework-00


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From touch@isi.edu  Mon Jul  9 10:50:56 2012
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Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 10:50:58 -0700
From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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The evolution of TRILL towards LISP continues, I see...

Joe

On 7/9/2012 10:44 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>   This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links Working Group of the IETF.
>
> 	Title           : TRILL Edge Directory Assistance Framework
> 	Author(s)       : Linda Dunbar
>                            Donald Eastlake
>                            Intel Labs
>                            Igor Gashinsky
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-directory-framework-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 14
> 	Date            : 2012-07-09
>
> Abstract:
>     Edge RBridges currently learn the mapping between MAC addresses and
>     their egress RBridges by observing the data packets traversed
>     through. When ingress RBridge receives a data frame with its
>     destination address (MAC&VLAN) unknown, the data frame is flooded
>     across the TRILL campus. When there are more than one RBridge ports
>     connected to one bridged LAN, only one of them can be designated as
>     AF port for forwarding/receiving traffic for each LAN, the rest have
>     to be blocked for that LAN.
>
>     This draft describes the framework for using directory service to
>     assist edge RBridges to improve TRILL network scalability in data
>     center environment.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-directory-framework
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-directory-framework-00
>
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>


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From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
To: "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Question of TRILL header definition in "draft-ietf-fine-labeling-01"
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Donald,

The Figure 2  in RFC 6325 shows that "TRILL Header" and "Inner Ethernet Hea=
der" are two separate fields. The Figure 5 of RFC6325 continues the view wi=
th "TRILL Header"  only including the fields of:
[cid:image001.png@01CD5EA9.A7202C80]

But on page 5 of  "draft-ietf-fine-labeling-01", the TRILL frame figure imp=
lies that TRILL Header includes the "Inner.MacDA" and "Inner.MacSA".

[cid:image002.png@01CD5EA9.A7202C80]


does the "Native Payload" in this figure include "Inner MAC-DA" and "inner =
MAC-SA"?

Thanks,
Linda Dunbar

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Donald, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The Figure 2 &nbsp;in RFC 6325 shows that &#8220;TRI=
LL Header&#8221; and &#8220;Inner Ethernet Header&#8221; are two separate f=
ields. The Figure 5 of RFC6325 continues the view with &#8220;TRILL Header&=
#8221;&nbsp; only including the fields of:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><img width=3D"466" height=3D"94" id=3D"Picture_x0020=
_1" src=3D"cid:image001.png@01CD5EA9.A7202C80"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But on page 5 of &nbsp;&#8220;draft-ietf-fine-labeli=
ng-01&#8221;, the TRILL frame figure implies that TRILL Header includes the=
 &#8220;Inner.MacDA&#8221; and &#8220;Inner.MacSA&#8221;.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">does the &#8220;Native Payload&#8221; in this figure=
 include &#8220;Inner MAC-DA&#8221; and &#8220;inner MAC-SA&#8221;?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Linda Dunbar<o:p></o:p></p>
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From linda.dunbar@huawei.com  Tue Jul 10 16:05:04 2012
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From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: more questions on "draft-ietf-trill-fine-labeling-01"
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 23:01:52 +0000
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Donald, et al,


-        Section 3 (page 7) 3rd paragraph:

"Ethernet links between FGL TRILL switches still have only C-VLAN tagging o=
n them"

When you talk about Ethernet Links between FGL TRILL switches, the VID is t=
he outer Ethernet header above the TRILL header. Is it always "C-VLAN"? Why=
 have this restriction?


-         Section 5.1: Can FGL RBridge also do VL RBridge function? For exa=
mple, when the C-VLAN of the incoming frame is the VL specifiable data labe=
l, the FGL RBridge just simply performs the VL RBridge function. Is it poss=
ible?

-         Same goes with Section 5.3: when X is VL specifiable only, why ca=
n't the FGL RBridge simply decapsulates the frame as regular VL RBridge?

Thanks, Linda







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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Donald, et al, <o:p></o:p></p>
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nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Section 3 (page 7) 3<sup>rd</sup> paragraph:<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><span=
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quot;;color:black">When you talk about Ethernet Links between FGL TRILL swi=
tches, the VID is the outer Ethernet header above the TRILL
 header. Is it always &quot;C-VLAN&quot;? Why have this restriction? <o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-li=
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</span></span></span><![endif]>Section 5.1: Can FGL RBridge also do VL RBri=
dge function? For example, when the C-VLAN of the incoming frame is the VL =
specifiable data label, the FGL RBridge just simply performs the VL RBridge=
 function. Is it possible?
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
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<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-li=
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</span></span></span><![endif]>Same goes with Section 5.3: when X is VL spe=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, Linda<o:p></o:p></p>
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From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 16:59:16 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:59:24 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEFm2ydFhPoRb05DFqBVbnbU5981ghgx=OeA_SsD8T7ZRA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [trill] more questions on "draft-ietf-trill-fine-labeling-01"
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Hi Linda,

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wro=
te:
> Donald, et al,
>
>
> -        Section 3 (page 7) 3rd paragraph:
>
> =93Ethernet links between FGL TRILL switches still have only C-VLAN taggi=
ng on
> them=94
>
> When you talk about Ethernet Links between FGL TRILL switches, the VID is
> the outer Ethernet header above the TRILL header. Is it always "C-VLAN"? =
Why
> have this restriction?

Perhaps the wording can be improved. The point is that an RBridge
never send a frame on an Ethernet link with an outer FGL. FGL can only
appear inside. Since RBridges are currently specified as customer
devices, if an RBridge sends a frame on an Ethernet link and the
RBridge port is configured to send tagged frames, the frame will have
an outer C-VLAN tag. However, as it says here and there, use of S-VLAN
tags is an obvious extension.

> -         Section 5.1: Can FGL RBridge also do VL RBridge function? For
> example, when the C-VLAN of the incoming frame is the VL specifiable data
> label, the FGL RBridge just simply performs the VL RBridge function. Is i=
t
> possible?

Yes, I believe the draft requires an FGL RBridge to be able to do VL.
Section 5.1 says that a port may be configured to do FGL ingress
process implying that by default it does VL ingress processing that
Section 5.1 says in unchanged.

> -         Same goes with Section 5.3: when X is VL specifiable only, why
> can=92t the FGL RBridge simply decapsulates the frame as regular VL RBrid=
ge?

I believe it can and must. The wording in Section 5.3 is less clear
than 5.1 and should probably state this more explicitly.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Thanks, Linda

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 18:44:01 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:44:07 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEFDsF6AjZ3GOKCgYDyB6CejLmDHyUYLUR7+uSDy+qScxg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
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Cc: "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [trill] Question of TRILL header definition in "draft-ietf-fine-labeling-01"
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Hi Linda,

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>wrot=
e:

>  Donald, ****
>
> ** **
>
> The Figure 2  in RFC 6325 shows that =93TRILL Header=94 and =93Inner Ethe=
rnet
> Header=94 are two separate fields. The Figure 5 of RFC6325 continues the =
view
> with =93TRILL Header=94  only including the fields of:****
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> But on page 5 of  =93draft-ietf-fine-labeling-01=94, the TRILL frame figu=
re
> implies that TRILL Header includes the =93Inner.MacDA=94 and =93Inner.Mac=
SA=94. **
> **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> does the =93Native Payload=94 in this figure include =93Inner MAC-DA=94 a=
nd =93inner
> MAC-SA=94?
>

No.

RFC 6325, the current IETF base protocol standard takes an IETF
"encapsulation" point of view. The current fine grained labeling draft
takes a more "sequence of tags" point of view. However, there is no
difference in the bits on the wire or behavior between the two. Just a
mental move of the end of the TRILL Header.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


> Thanks, ****
>
> Linda Dunbar****
>

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Hi Linda,<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:38 P=
M, Linda Dunbar <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:linda.dunbar@huawei=
.com" target=3D"_blank">linda.dunbar@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Donald, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The Figure 2 =A0in RFC 6325 shows that =93TRILL Head=
er=94 and =93Inner Ethernet Header=94 are two separate fields. The Figure 5=
 of RFC6325 continues the view with =93TRILL Header=94=A0 only including th=
e fields of:<u></u><u></u></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><img width=3D"466" height=3D"94" src=3D"cid:image001=
.png@01CD5EA9.A7202C80"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But on page 5 of =A0=93draft-ietf-fine-labeling-01=
=94, the TRILL frame figure implies that TRILL Header includes the =93Inner=
.MacDA=94 and =93Inner.MacSA=94.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><img width=3D"370" height=3D"311" src=3D"cid:image00=
2.png@01CD5EA9.A7202C80"></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">does the =93Native Payload=94 in this figure include=
 =93Inner MAC-DA=94 and =93inner MAC-SA=94?</p></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">No.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

RFC 6325, the current IETF base protocol standard takes an IETF &quot;encap=
sulation&quot; point of view. The current fine grained labeling draft takes=
 a more &quot;sequence of tags&quot; point of view. However, there is no di=
fference in the bits on the wire or behavior between the two. Just a mental=
 move of the end of the TRILL Header.</div>

<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;color:rg=
b(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br clear=3D"all">=
Thanks,<br>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0=A0<a h=
ref=3D"tel:%2B1-508-333-2270" value=3D"+15083332270" target=3D"_blank" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)">+1-508-333-2270</a>=A0(cell)<br>

=A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA<br>=A0<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e=
3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)">d3e3e3@gmail.=
com</a><br></span><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">Thanks, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Linda Dunbar<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 05:31:45 2012
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From: somnath chatterjee <somnath.chatterjee01@gmail.com>
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Subject: [trill] [rbridge] Query on draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00
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Hi Authors,

I have few comments and a query about  draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.

1> Section 4.2 Receipt of ESADI PDUs

   "Because all ESADI instance for VLAN-x are adjacent, when RB1
receives an ESADI-CSNP from RB2 and detects that it has ESADI-LSPs
that RB1 is missing, it sets the transmission flag only for its own
ESADI-LSPs that RB1 is missing. Missing ESADI-LSPs originated by other
ESADI instances will be detected by those other instances."

   I am not able to understand the quoted sentences.Could you please clarify?

2> The figure 2 and 3 in Section 2. ESADI Protocol Overview have the
Inner MAC DA as "Next Hop Dest. Address"   which should be
"All-Egress-RBridges" (formerly called "All-ESADI-RBridges")

3> In Section 6. ESADI-LSP Contents
   "ESADI-LSP number zero MUST NOT exceed 1470 minus 24 bytes in
length (1446 bytes) but if received longer, it is still processed
normally."

   should be changed to

   "The ESADI payload for ESADI-LSP number zero MUST NOT exceed 1470
minus 24 bytes in length  (1446 bytes) but if received longer, it is
still processed normally."
Also should it be 1470-24 or Sz-24 ? Sz being the campus wide MTU.

Thank you,
Regards,
Somnath

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 08:26:20 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:26:25 -0400
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Subject: Re: [trill] FW: New Version Notification for draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01.txt
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A few comments:

It seems to me that the top level difficulty with this draft is that
it assumes that TRILL is an Ethernet protocol. But it isn't. Where do
these tags go in the TRILL Data frame on a PPP link [RFC6361] or in
the possible IPv4/6 link format in draft-mrw-trill-over-ip or in the
possible MPLS TRILL Data format in draft-ietf-l2vpn-trill-evpn? You
could put new tags after the Inner.VLAN or you could expand the TRILL
Header but trying to put new tags in front of the TRILL Header seems
problematic and also guarantees that only new hardware can process the
frame at all.

Ignoring the above problem and commenting on the multi-topology and
nickname expansion aspects of the draft:

I'm not sure why the topology ID tag has 16 bits of topology when all
the other IS-IS related topology things I know about have 12 bits of
topology ID and, in the real world, I understand it is very rare to
use more than around 8 topologies. Also, the interesting alternative
of encoding the topology in the Outer.VLAN tag, which only works on
Ethernet links, would tend to use the 12-bit VLAN ID for topology
although I suppose, depending on how big a change you are making in
the port silicon, you could repurpose the priority and DEI bits...
Anyway, having a few reserved flag bits sometimes turns out to be
extremely useful so I'm thinking that sticking with 12 bits would be
better. And, in any case, redefining the content of the VLAN tag while
continuing to use the C-VLAN Ethertype would be viewed as a problem by
some.

I'm not sure why there has to be an MT Capability bit. Wouldn't just
not including the MT TLV be a good enough indication if you required
even an MT capable RBridge only participating in base topology zero to
include the MT TLV?

If you are going to expand the nickname space, I don't quite see why
you only add 8 bits and why, it appears, you are going for a larger
flat nickname space. There is power in hierarchy. Perhaps you mean for
the 8 bits to be used somewhat hierarchically for naming areas in
multi-level or the like but it doesn't sound like that. Going to a
flat 24-bit nickname seems like it, in general, requires new silicon
and biases the design towards high end switches with bigger tables,
etc. If you need new silicon anyway, I think that adding 16-bits with
a fixed hierarchy split of the upper and lower 16-bit parts and using
something like the "swap nickname" logic suggest in
draft-perlman-trill-rbridge-mulilevel-04.txt would enable forwarding
tables to remain small and better support a wider range of switches.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Naveen Nimmu <naveen@broadcom.com> wrote:
> A new version of this draft is posted. This version adds  proposed  extensions to support TRILL nickname space from 16bits to 24 bits.
> Please review and provide feedback.
> Thanks
> \naveen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 8:13 AM
> To: tsenevir@cisco.com
> Cc: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com; ginsberg@cisco.com; Naveen Nimmu; ayabaner@gmail.com
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tissa Senevirathne and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Filename:        draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode
> Revision:        01
> Title:           Multi Topology Encoding within TRILL data frames
> Creation date:   2012-06-17
> WG ID:           Individual Submission
> Number of pages: 12
> URL:             http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01.txt
> Status:          http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode
> Htmlized:        http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01
> Diff:            http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01
>
> Abstract:
>    Two alternate methods of encoding Multi Topology Identifier within
>    the TRILL data frames are presented. Methods proposed herein do not
>    require overloading TRILL RBridge nickname to encode Multi Topology
>    Identifier. A method that expands TRILL nickname space from 16bits
>    to 24 bits is also presented in this draft.
>
>
>
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill

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From: "Tissa Senevirathne (tsenevir)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>
To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, Naveen Nimmu <naveen@broadcom.com>
Thread-Topic: [trill] FW: New Version Notification for draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01.txt
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Hi Donald

Please see my comments in-line

-----Original Message-----
From: trill-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of D=
onald Eastlake
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 8:26 AM
To: Naveen Nimmu
Cc: trill@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [trill] FW: New Version Notification for draft-tissa-trill-mt-=
encode-01.txt

A few comments:

It seems to me that the top level difficulty with this draft is that it ass=
umes that TRILL is an Ethernet protocol. But it isn't. Where do these tags =
go in the TRILL Data frame on a PPP link [RFC6361] or in the possible IPv4/=
6 link format in draft-mrw-trill-over-ip or in the possible MPLS TRILL Data=
 format in draft-ietf-l2vpn-trill-evpn? You could put new tags after the In=
ner.VLAN or you could expand the TRILL Header but trying to put new tags in=
 front of the TRILL Header seems problematic and also guarantees that only =
new hardware can process the frame at all.

[Answer] These are encoded hop-by-hop. Superior RBridge do not include when=
 interfacing with older RBridges.

Ignoring the above problem and commenting on the multi-topology and nicknam=
e expansion aspects of the draft:

I'm not sure why the topology ID tag has 16 bits of topology when all the o=
ther IS-IS related topology things I know about have 12 bits of topology ID=
 and, in the real world, I understand it is very rare to use more than arou=
nd 8 topologies. Also, the interesting alternative of encoding the topology=
 in the Outer.VLAN tag, which only works on Ethernet links, would tend to u=
se the 12-bit VLAN ID for topology although I suppose, depending on how big=
 a change you are making in the port silicon, you could repurpose the prior=
ity and DEI bits...
Anyway, having a few reserved flag bits sometimes turns out to be extremely=
 useful so I'm thinking that sticking with 12 bits would be better. And, in=
 any case, redefining the content of the VLAN tag while continuing to use t=
he C-VLAN Ethertype would be viewed as a problem by some.

[Answer] Point taken. It was made 16 bit aligned. But next rev we can carve=
 out the upper 4-bits as reserved bits.

I'm not sure why there has to be an MT Capability bit. Wouldn't just not in=
cluding the MT TLV be a good enough indication if you required even an MT c=
apable RBridge only participating in base topology zero to include the MT T=
LV?

[Answer] MT capability bit was added to identify the MT capability in the H=
ello message itself. However, we can discuss the use of the MT TLV for the =
purpose. I did not quite understand the inclusion of MT TLV in base topolog=
y question.

If you are going to expand the nickname space, I don't quite see why you on=
ly add 8 bits and why, it appears, you are going for a larger flat nickname=
 space. There is power in hierarchy. Perhaps you mean for the 8 bits to be =
used somewhat hierarchically for naming areas in multi-level or the like bu=
t it doesn't sound like that. Going to a flat 24-bit nickname seems like it=
, in general, requires new silicon and biases the design towards high end s=
witches with bigger tables, etc. If you need new silicon anyway, I think th=
at adding 16-bits with a fixed hierarchy split of the upper and lower 16-bi=
t parts and using something like the "swap nickname" logic suggest in draft=
-perlman-trill-rbridge-mulilevel-04.txt would enable forwarding tables to r=
emain small and better support a wider range of switches.

[Answer] How upper 8 bits be used to construct the 24 bit address is an adm=
inistrative manner. We did not want to go 32 bit address space, then we are=
 facing the question why TRILL lets use IP in place TRILL.=20

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA  d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Naveen Nimmu <naveen@broadcom.com> wrote:
> A new version of this draft is posted. This version adds  proposed  exten=
sions to support TRILL nickname space from 16bits to 24 bits.
> Please review and provide feedback.
> Thanks
> \naveen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 8:13 AM
> To: tsenevir@cisco.com
> Cc: aldrin.ietf@gmail.com; ginsberg@cisco.com; Naveen Nimmu;=20
> ayabaner@gmail.com
> Subject: New Version Notification for=20
> draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tissa Senevirathne and posted to=20
> the IETF repository.
>
> Filename:        draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode
> Revision:        01
> Title:           Multi Topology Encoding within TRILL data frames
> Creation date:   2012-06-17
> WG ID:           Individual Submission
> Number of pages: 12
> URL:             http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tissa-trill-mt=
-encode-01.txt
> Status:          http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tissa-trill-mt-enc=
ode
> Htmlized:        http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tissa-trill-mt-encode-0=
1
> Diff:            http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tissa-trill-m=
t-encode-01
>
> Abstract:
>    Two alternate methods of encoding Multi Topology Identifier within
>    the TRILL data frames are presented. Methods proposed herein do not
>    require overloading TRILL RBridge nickname to encode Multi Topology
>    Identifier. A method that expands TRILL nickname space from 16bits
>    to 24 bits is also presented in this draft.
>
>
>
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
_______________________________________________
trill mailing list
trill@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill

From nitks.abhinav@gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 02:51:20 2012
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Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:21:54 +0530
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From: Abhinav Bhatia <nitks.abhinav@gmail.com>
To: trill@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c35fab3671504c4b3074f
Subject: [trill]  [rbridge] Query on draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00
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--0015174c35fab3671504c4b3074f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Authors,



I have query regarding  =93The ESADI (End Station Address Distribution
Information) Protocol=94 as per  =93draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00=94



According to draft in Section
5.2<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00#section-5.2>Forget=
ting
End Station Addresses



   If RBridge RBn participating in the TRILL ESADI protocol for VLAN-x

   is no longer appointed forwarder for VLAN-x on any port where it is

   providing end station service, it ceases to participate in ESADI

   after sending a final ESADI-LSP nulling out its ESADI-LSP

   information.



Above will remove/flush the learned L2 entries for that ESADI Rbridge for
that vlan and also remove the neighbor ESADI instance entry.



Q) What does =93nulling out=94 its ESADI-LSP information mean? Does it mean=
s
removing the macs and sending an empty MAC Reachability TLV or does it mean
that the ESADI LSP

     wont contain any MAC Reachability TLV at all?



Q) In case if ESADI rbridge is AF for a vlan-x and  the only  End Station
which was connected earlier, is removed now, then what will be sent in
ESADI-LSP to flush L2 entries for that

    vlan-x, will it be without MAC Reachability TLV? Please bear in mind
that the RBridge has not lost AF for that particular vlan, but has no End
Station to send in MAC Reachability

    TLV.



    Please let me know for an ESADI RBridge  how to distinguish between

1>     when to remove learned L2 entries and

2>     when to remove ESADI instance neighbor on receiving ESADI-LSP?

Thanks,

Abhinav

--0015174c35fab3671504c4b3074f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Authors,</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">I have query regarding=
 =A0=93<span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
he ESADI (End
Station Address Distribution Information) Protocol</span>=94 as per =A0=93d=
raft-ietf-trill-esadi-00=94</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">According to draft in =
Section <a style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" name=3D"section-5.2"></a><a style=
=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tril=
l-esadi-00#section-5.2"><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">5.2</span></a>
Forgetting End Station Addresses</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0=A0If RBridge RB=
n
participating in the TRILL ESADI protocol for VLAN-x</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0 is no longer
appointed forwarder for VLAN-x on any port where it is</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0 providing end
station service, it ceases to participate in ESADI</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0 after sending a
final ESADI-LSP nulling out its ESADI-LSP</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0 information.</p=
>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">Above will remove/flus=
h the
learned L2 entries for that ESADI Rbridge for that vlan and also remove the
neighbor ESADI instance entry.</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">Q) What does =93nullin=
g out=94 its ESADI-LSP
information mean? Does it means removing the macs and sending an empty MAC =
Reachability
TLV or does
it mean that the ESADI LSP=A0 <br></p><p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0=A0=A0 wont contain any MAC Reachability TLV at all?<=
/p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0 </p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">Q) In case if ESADI rb=
ridge is
AF for a vlan-x and =A0the only
=A0End Station which was connected earlier, is removed now, then
what will be sent in ESADI-LSP to flush L2 entries for that=A0=A0 </p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0=A0 vlan-x,
will it be without MAC Reachability TLV? Please bear in mind that the RBrid=
ge has not lost AF for that
particular vlan, but has no End Station to send in MAC Reachability=A0 <br>=
</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0=A0 TLV.</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=A0=A0 Please
let me know for an ESADI RBridge =A0how to distinguish between
</p>

<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:38.25pt;color:rgb(51,51,=
51)"><span style>1&gt;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span>when to remove learned L2 entries and </p>

<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:38.25pt;color:rgb(51,51,=
51)"><span style>2&gt;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span>when to remove ESADI
instance neighbor on receiving ESADI-LSP?</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>

<p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)" class=3D"MsoNormal">Abhinav</p>


--0015174c35fab3671504c4b3074f--

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Sat Jul 14 14:56:51 2012
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Subject: [trill] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Li=
nks Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : TRILL: RBridge Channel Support
	Author(s)       : Donald Eastlake
                          Vishwas Manral
                          Yizhou Li
                          Sam Aldrin
                          Dave Ward
	Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08.txt
	Pages           : 29
	Date            : 2012-07-14

Abstract:
   This document specifies a general channel mechanism for sending
   messages, such as BFD (Bidirectional Forwarding Detection) messages,
   between RBridges (Routing Bridges) and between RBridges and end
   stations in an RBridge campus through extensions to the TRILL
   (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links) protocol.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08

A diff from previous version is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:58:42 -0400
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This version contains the Congestion Considerations section that was
review by the WG.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 5:56 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08.txt
To: d3e3e3@gmail.com
Cc: vishwas.manral@hp.com, sam.aldrin@huawei.com, dward@cisco.com,
liyizhou@huawei.com



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08.txt
has been successfully submitted by Donald Eastlake and posted to the
IETF repository.

Filename:        draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel
Revision:        08
Title:           TRILL: RBridge Channel Support
Creation date:   2012-07-13
WG ID:           trill
Number of pages: 29
URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08.txt
Status:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel
Htmlized:        http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08
Diff:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel-08

Abstract:
   This document specifies a general channel mechanism for sending
   messages, such as BFD (Bidirectional Forwarding Detection) messages,
   between RBridges (Routing Bridges) and between RBridges and end
   stations in an RBridge campus through extensions to the TRILL
   (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links) protocol.




The IETF Secretariat

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From david.black@emc.com  Mon Jul 16 10:50:06 2012
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From: <david.black@emc.com>
To: <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, <trill@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:50:29 -0400
Thread-Topic: [trill] Congestion Considerations for draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel
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Subject: Re: [trill] Congestion Considerations for	draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel
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Minor nit, which idnits will turn up - RFC 3448 has been obsoleted by RFC 5=
348.

Thanks,
--David


> -----Original Message-----
> From: trill-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Donald Eastlake
> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 7:30 PM
> To: trill@ietf.org
> Subject: [trill] Congestion Considerations for draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-
> channel
>=20
> In order to resolve a blocking AD comment, we probably need to add a
> Congestion Considerations section to the draft. Attached is a draft of
> such a section that we have come up with, starting from text in RFC
> 5085. Comments welcome.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 11:03:18 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:03:42 -0400
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Subject: Re: [trill] Congestion Considerations for draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-channel
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Thanks. That's actually fixed in the revised draft I posted but only
because I ran the nits checker which pointed this out to me :-)

Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 1:50 PM,  <david.black@emc.com> wrote:
> Minor nit, which idnits will turn up - RFC 3448 has been obsoleted by RFC 5348.
>
> Thanks,
> --David
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: trill-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Donald Eastlake
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 7:30 PM
>> To: trill@ietf.org
>> Subject: [trill] Congestion Considerations for draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-
>> channel
>>
>> In order to resolve a blocking AD comment, we probably need to add a
>> Congestion Considerations section to the draft. Attached is a draft of
>> such a section that we have come up with, starting from text in RFC
>> 5085. Comments welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =============================
>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jul 16 15:13:26 2012
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Subject: [trill] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Li=
nks Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : TRILL (Transparent Interconnetion of Lots of Links): Bid=
irectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) Support
	Author(s)       : Vishwas Manral
                          Donald Eastlake
                          Dave Ward
                          Ayan Banerjee
	Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-07.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2012-07-16

Abstract:
   This document specifies use of the BFD (Bidirectional Forwarding
   Detection) protocol in RBridge campuses based on the Rbridge Channel
   extension to the the TRILL (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of
   Links) protocol.

   BFD is a widely deployed OAM (Operations, Administration, and
   Maintenance) mechanism in IP and MPLS (Multi Protocol Label
   Switching) networks, using UDP and ACH (Associated Channel Header)
   encapsulation respectively.  This document specifies the BFD
   encapsulation over TRILL.





The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-07

A diff from previous version is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-07


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: [trill] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Li=
nks Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : TRILL: Clarifications, Corrections, and Updates
	Author(s)       : Donald Eastlake
                          Mingui Zhang
                          Anoop Ghanwani
                          Vishwas Manral
                          Ayan Banerjee
	Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05.txt
	Pages           : 30
	Date            : 2012-07-16

Abstract:
   The IETF TRILL (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links)
   protocol provides least cost pair-wise data forwarding without
   configuration in multi-hop networks with arbitrary topology and link
   technology, safe forwarding even during periods of temporary loops,
   and support for multipathing of both unicast and multicast traffic.
   TRILL accomplishes this by using IS-IS (Intermediate System to
   Intermediate System) link state routing and by encapsulating traffic
   using a header that includes a hop count. Since the TRILL base
   protocol was approved in March 2010, active development of TRILL has
   revealed errata in the original RFC 6325 and some cases that could
   use clarifications or updates.

   RFC 6327 and RFC 6439 provide clarifications and updates with respect
   to Adjacency and Appointed Forwarders. This document provides other
   known clarifications, corrections, and updates to RFC 6325, RFC 6327,
   and RFC 6439.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05

A diff from previous version is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 18:08:48 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:09:13 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEHb6KYM9HBGQX1OaeKH9j33zRwMffzkME-_HSSPCYULiQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: trill@ietf.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: [trill] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-07.txt
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Hi,

This draft has a number of changes to response to Area Director and
Directorate review. See page 18 for a list of changes. Please review
these and see if you have any problem with them.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 6:13 PM,  <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links Working Group of the IETF.
>
>         Title           : TRILL (Transparent Interconnetion of Lots of Links): Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) Support
>         Author(s)       : Vishwas Manral
>                           Donald Eastlake
>                           Dave Ward
>                           Ayan Banerjee
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-07.txt
>         Pages           : 20
>         Date            : 2012-07-16
>
> Abstract:
>    This document specifies use of the BFD (Bidirectional Forwarding
>    Detection) protocol in RBridge campuses based on the Rbridge Channel
>    extension to the the TRILL (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of
>    Links) protocol.
>
>    BFD is a widely deployed OAM (Operations, Administration, and
>    Maintenance) mechanism in IP and MPLS (Multi Protocol Label
>    Switching) networks, using UDP and ACH (Associated Channel Header)
>    encapsulation respectively.  This document specifies the BFD
>    encapsulation over TRILL.
>
>
>
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-07
>
> A diff from previous version is available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-trill-rbridge-bfd-07
>
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 18:12:15 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:12:39 -0400
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To: trill@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [trill] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05.txt
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Hi,

This draft has relatively small changes that are responding to a
Routing Directorate review. The most significant of these is that it
clarifies that packets are not forwarded through overloaded RBridges.
If you have a problem with any of these changes, please tell me or
post to the list.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:10 PM,  <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links Working Group of the IETF.
>
>         Title           : TRILL: Clarifications, Corrections, and Updates
>         Author(s)       : Donald Eastlake
>                           Mingui Zhang
>                           Anoop Ghanwani
>                           Vishwas Manral
>                           Ayan Banerjee
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05.txt
>         Pages           : 30
>         Date            : 2012-07-16
>
> Abstract:
>    The IETF TRILL (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links)
>    protocol provides least cost pair-wise data forwarding without
>    configuration in multi-hop networks with arbitrary topology and link
>    technology, safe forwarding even during periods of temporary loops,
>    and support for multipathing of both unicast and multicast traffic.
>    TRILL accomplishes this by using IS-IS (Intermediate System to
>    Intermediate System) link state routing and by encapsulating traffic
>    using a header that includes a hop count. Since the TRILL base
>    protocol was approved in March 2010, active development of TRILL has
>    revealed errata in the original RFC 6325 and some cases that could
>    use clarifications or updates.
>
>    RFC 6327 and RFC 6439 provide clarifications and updates with respect
>    to Adjacency and Appointed Forwarders. This document provides other
>    known clarifications, corrections, and updates to RFC 6325, RFC 6327,
>    and RFC 6439.
>
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05
>
> A diff from previous version is available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05
>
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill

From swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com  Tue Jul 17 02:58:51 2012
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From: Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com>
To: "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:59:34 +0000
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Subject: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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--_000_06379F8DF406F04189CAE40F1A8FB12501D602BEBL2PRD0510MB351_
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Hi Authors,

I am not able to understand the meaning of the following line in this draft=
: http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf

"For robustness, if an ESADI instance has two or more ESADI neighbors
   and is not DRB and it receives no ESADI-CSNP PDUs for at least the
   CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY transmit an ESADI-
   CSNP."

This line is a part of section 4.1 (Sending of ESADI PDUs) on page number 1=
2.
Please explain me what this line tries to convey.

Regards,
Swet

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osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:=
//www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am not able to understand the meaning of the follo=
wing line in this draft:
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf">http://=
tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;For robustness, if an ESADI instance has two =
or more ESADI neighbors<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; and is not DRB and it receives no ESADI=
-CSNP PDUs for at least the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB,=
 it MAY transmit an ESADI-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; CSNP.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This line is a part of section 4.1 (Sending of ESADI=
 PDUs) on page number 12.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please explain me what this line tries to convey.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Swet<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_06379F8DF406F04189CAE40F1A8FB12501D602BEBL2PRD0510MB351_--

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 12:26:49 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:27:16 -0400
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Subject: Re: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Hi Swet,

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com> wro=
te:
> Hi Authors,
>
>
> I am not able to understand the meaning of the following line in this dra=
ft:
> http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf

Thanks for reviewing this document. It was just recently posted as a
WG document and I think it does need some more work.

> =93For robustness, if an ESADI instance has two or more ESADI neighbors
>
>    and is not DRB and it receives no ESADI-CSNP PDUs for at least the
>
>    CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY transmit an ESADI-
>
>    CSNP.=94

Do you really no understand what the sentence says? Or is it that you
don't understand what the reason is for this behavior?

The idea is that if the DRB on an ESADI virtual link is being flakey
or the virtual link is broken then, to maintain LSP synchronization,
it would be good for some other TRILL switch on that ESADI virtual
link to occasionally send a CSNP. The multi-hop ESADI pseudo-link is
inherently somewhat less reliable that a link between adjacent TRILL
switches. (You might think this could result in a flurry of CSNPs but
note that, due to the jitter in the IS-IS reliable flooding mechanism,
if there were several non-DRB TRILL switches on the link, as soon as
one sends a CSNP it will inhibit the others for a while.)

Anyway, although it doesn't make much difference. It should probably
say "one" instead of "two" in the text and it should not just be that
it has not received a CSNP but that it has not received or sent a
CSNP. So, I think the wording should be changes to:

   "For robustness, if an ESADI instance has one or more ESADI neighbors
   and is not DRB and it does not receive or send an ESADI-CSNP PDU
   for at least the CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY
   transmit an ESADI-CSNP."

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> This line is a part of section 4.1 (Sending of ESADI PDUs) on page number
> 12.
>
> Please explain me what this line tries to convey.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Swet

From narten@us.ibm.com  Wed Jul 18 11:14:37 2012
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Comments: In-reply-to Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> message dated "Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:27:16 -0400."
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:15:11 -0400
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Subject: Re: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Seems to me that the MAY sentence all by itself is not helpful.

If sending occasionaly ESADI-CSNPs increases robustness, IMO, the spec
should say that and explain which scenarios its useful in. And then,
MAY doens't seem right either. SHOULD would seem to make more sense...

The RFC 2119 defintion of MAY says:

5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
   truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
   particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
   it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
   An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
   prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
   include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
   same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
   MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
   does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
   option provides.)

which doesn't seem to match the explanation for why the MAY sentence
is in the document.

Thomas

Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> writes:


> Hi Swet,

> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com> wrote:
> > Hi Authors,
> >
> >
> > I am not able to understand the meaning of the following line in this draft:
> > http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf

> Thanks for reviewing this document. It was just recently posted as a
> WG document and I think it does need some more work.

> > 聯For robustness, if an ESADI instance has two or more ESADI neighbors
> >
> >    and is not DRB and it receives no ESADI-CSNP PDUs for at least the
> >
> >    CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY transmit an ESADI-
> >
> >    CSNP.聰

> Do you really no understand what the sentence says? Or is it that you
> don't understand what the reason is for this behavior?

> The idea is that if the DRB on an ESADI virtual link is being flakey
> or the virtual link is broken then, to maintain LSP synchronization,
> it would be good for some other TRILL switch on that ESADI virtual
> link to occasionally send a CSNP. The multi-hop ESADI pseudo-link is
> inherently somewhat less reliable that a link between adjacent TRILL
> switches. (You might think this could result in a flurry of CSNPs but
> note that, due to the jitter in the IS-IS reliable flooding mechanism,
> if there were several non-DRB TRILL switches on the link, as soon as
> one sends a CSNP it will inhibit the others for a while.)

> Anyway, although it doesn't make much difference. It should probably
> say "one" instead of "two" in the text and it should not just be that
> it has not received a CSNP but that it has not received or sent a
> CSNP. So, I think the wording should be changes to:

>    "For robustness, if an ESADI instance has one or more ESADI neighbors
>    and is not DRB and it does not receive or send an ESADI-CSNP PDU
>    for at least the CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY
>    transmit an ESADI-CSNP."

> Thanks,
> Donald
> =============================
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com

> > This line is a part of section 4.1 (Sending of ESADI PDUs) on page number
> > 12.
> >
> > Please explain me what this line tries to convey.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Swet
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill


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Hi Donald.

> This draft has relatively small changes that are responding to a
> Routing Directorate review. The most significant of these is that it
> clarifies that packets are not forwarded through overloaded RBridges.
> If you have a problem with any of these changes, please tell me or
> post to the list.

I took the above as an opportunity to review what the various TRILL
specs say about handling "overload" situations.

I gather that an overloaded RB sets the overload bit in its IS-IS
advertisement to indicate "I have problems and may not work right".

OK. But what exactly are other RBs supposed to do with this info?

I would assume that for correctness/consistency, the safest thing to
do is simply remove the RB from the topology and pretend it doesn't
exist. i.e, stop using it or trying to forward traffic through
it. Yes, this may result in suboptimal routes (or worse), but at least
you'll get consistent behavior. If TRILL continues to forward traffic
through RBs that aren't working right, you'll likely see more
random/intermittent problems that are hard to debug/diagnose.

That said, the clear-correct draft does say if the AF is the only RB
connected to a particular VLAN at an edge, if you remove that RB from
TRILL, the VLAN becomes unreachable. So it says don't do that.

But going through the various spec, the published RFCs don't seem to
say anything about the overload bit. (I didn't do an exhaustive
search, but searching for the string "overload" in the RFCs shows
almost nothing.)

Where is the TRILL behavior wrt to using the overload flag documented?

Thomas


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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:12:52 -0700
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From: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Actually, perhaps ESADI shouldn't bother with CSNPs at all.  If each
RB participating in the ESADI instance included the sequence number of
its own LSP in its Hello for that ESADI instance, wouldn't that work?
We need to have each RB (in the ESADI instance) send Hellos
periodically anyway.

Radia

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> Seems to me that the MAY sentence all by itself is not helpful.
>
> If sending occasionaly ESADI-CSNPs increases robustness, IMO, the spec
> should say that and explain which scenarios its useful in. And then,
> MAY doens't seem right either. SHOULD would seem to make more sense...
>
> The RFC 2119 defintion of MAY says:
>
> 5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
>    truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
>    particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
>    it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
>    An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
>    prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
>    include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
>    same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
>    MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
>    does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
>    option provides.)
>
> which doesn't seem to match the explanation for why the MAY sentence
> is in the document.
>
> Thomas
>
> Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>> Hi Swet,
>
>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com> =
wrote:
>> > Hi Authors,
>> >
>> >
>> > I am not able to understand the meaning of the following line in this =
draft:
>> > http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf
>
>> Thanks for reviewing this document. It was just recently posted as a
>> WG document and I think it does need some more work.
>
>> > =93For robustness, if an ESADI instance has two or more ESADI neighbor=
s
>> >
>> >    and is not DRB and it receives no ESADI-CSNP PDUs for at least the
>> >
>> >    CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY transmit an ESADI-
>> >
>> >    CSNP.=94
>
>> Do you really no understand what the sentence says? Or is it that you
>> don't understand what the reason is for this behavior?
>
>> The idea is that if the DRB on an ESADI virtual link is being flakey
>> or the virtual link is broken then, to maintain LSP synchronization,
>> it would be good for some other TRILL switch on that ESADI virtual
>> link to occasionally send a CSNP. The multi-hop ESADI pseudo-link is
>> inherently somewhat less reliable that a link between adjacent TRILL
>> switches. (You might think this could result in a flurry of CSNPs but
>> note that, due to the jitter in the IS-IS reliable flooding mechanism,
>> if there were several non-DRB TRILL switches on the link, as soon as
>> one sends a CSNP it will inhibit the others for a while.)
>
>> Anyway, although it doesn't make much difference. It should probably
>> say "one" instead of "two" in the text and it should not just be that
>> it has not received a CSNP but that it has not received or sent a
>> CSNP. So, I think the wording should be changes to:
>
>>    "For robustness, if an ESADI instance has one or more ESADI neighbors
>>    and is not DRB and it does not receive or send an ESADI-CSNP PDU
>>    for at least the CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY
>>    transmit an ESADI-CSNP."
>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>> > This line is a part of section 4.1 (Sending of ESADI PDUs) on page num=
ber
>> > 12.
>> >
>> > Please explain me what this line tries to convey.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Swet
>> _______________________________________________
>> trill mailing list
>> trill@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 12:23:12 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 15:23:36 -0400
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To: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Currently there are no Hellos in ESADI. Participation is determined
from the core IS-IS link state database.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com> wro=
te:
> Actually, perhaps ESADI shouldn't bother with CSNPs at all.  If each
> RB participating in the ESADI instance included the sequence number of
> its own LSP in its Hello for that ESADI instance, wouldn't that work?
> We need to have each RB (in the ESADI instance) send Hellos
> periodically anyway.
>
> Radia
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote=
:
>> Seems to me that the MAY sentence all by itself is not helpful.
>>
>> If sending occasionaly ESADI-CSNPs increases robustness, IMO, the spec
>> should say that and explain which scenarios its useful in. And then,
>> MAY doens't seem right either. SHOULD would seem to make more sense...
>>
>> The RFC 2119 defintion of MAY says:
>>
>> 5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
>>    truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
>>    particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
>>    it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
>>    An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
>>    prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
>>    include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
>>    same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
>>    MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
>>    does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
>>    option provides.)
>>
>> which doesn't seem to match the explanation for why the MAY sentence
>> is in the document.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>> Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>> Hi Swet,
>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com>=
 wrote:
>>> > Hi Authors,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I am not able to understand the meaning of the following line in this=
 draft:
>>> > http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf
>>
>>> Thanks for reviewing this document. It was just recently posted as a
>>> WG document and I think it does need some more work.
>>
>>> > =93For robustness, if an ESADI instance has two or more ESADI neighbo=
rs
>>> >
>>> >    and is not DRB and it receives no ESADI-CSNP PDUs for at least the
>>> >
>>> >    CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY transmit an ESADI-
>>> >
>>> >    CSNP.=94
>>
>>> Do you really no understand what the sentence says? Or is it that you
>>> don't understand what the reason is for this behavior?
>>
>>> The idea is that if the DRB on an ESADI virtual link is being flakey
>>> or the virtual link is broken then, to maintain LSP synchronization,
>>> it would be good for some other TRILL switch on that ESADI virtual
>>> link to occasionally send a CSNP. The multi-hop ESADI pseudo-link is
>>> inherently somewhat less reliable that a link between adjacent TRILL
>>> switches. (You might think this could result in a flurry of CSNPs but
>>> note that, due to the jitter in the IS-IS reliable flooding mechanism,
>>> if there were several non-DRB TRILL switches on the link, as soon as
>>> one sends a CSNP it will inhibit the others for a while.)
>>
>>> Anyway, although it doesn't make much difference. It should probably
>>> say "one" instead of "two" in the text and it should not just be that
>>> it has not received a CSNP but that it has not received or sent a
>>> CSNP. So, I think the wording should be changes to:
>>
>>>    "For robustness, if an ESADI instance has one or more ESADI neighbor=
s
>>>    and is not DRB and it does not receive or send an ESADI-CSNP PDU
>>>    for at least the CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY
>>>    transmit an ESADI-CSNP."
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Donald
>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>
>>> > This line is a part of section 4.1 (Sending of ESADI PDUs) on page nu=
mber
>>> > 12.
>>> >
>>> > Please explain me what this line tries to convey.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> > Swet
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> trill mailing list
>>> trill@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> trill mailing list
>> trill@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>>

From radiaperlman@gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 12:25:04 2012
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From: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>
To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Oh right!  You just learn of your ESADI neighbors based on the core
instance LSPs.  Sorry about the confusion.

Radia

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
> Currently there are no Hellos in ESADI. Participation is determined
> from the core IS-IS link state database.
>
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>> Actually, perhaps ESADI shouldn't bother with CSNPs at all.  If each
>> RB participating in the ESADI instance included the sequence number of
>> its own LSP in its Hello for that ESADI instance, wouldn't that work?
>> We need to have each RB (in the ESADI instance) send Hellos
>> periodically anyway.
>>
>> Radia
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrot=
e:
>>> Seems to me that the MAY sentence all by itself is not helpful.
>>>
>>> If sending occasionaly ESADI-CSNPs increases robustness, IMO, the spec
>>> should say that and explain which scenarios its useful in. And then,
>>> MAY doens't seem right either. SHOULD would seem to make more sense...
>>>
>>> The RFC 2119 defintion of MAY says:
>>>
>>> 5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
>>>    truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
>>>    particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
>>>    it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
>>>    An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
>>>    prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
>>>    include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In th=
e
>>>    same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
>>>    MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
>>>    does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
>>>    option provides.)
>>>
>>> which doesn't seem to match the explanation for why the MAY sentence
>>> is in the document.
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Swet,
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com=
> wrote:
>>>> > Hi Authors,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I am not able to understand the meaning of the following line in thi=
s draft:
>>>> > http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf
>>>
>>>> Thanks for reviewing this document. It was just recently posted as a
>>>> WG document and I think it does need some more work.
>>>
>>>> > =93For robustness, if an ESADI instance has two or more ESADI neighb=
ors
>>>> >
>>>> >    and is not DRB and it receives no ESADI-CSNP PDUs for at least th=
e
>>>> >
>>>> >    CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY transmit an ESADI-
>>>> >
>>>> >    CSNP.=94
>>>
>>>> Do you really no understand what the sentence says? Or is it that you
>>>> don't understand what the reason is for this behavior?
>>>
>>>> The idea is that if the DRB on an ESADI virtual link is being flakey
>>>> or the virtual link is broken then, to maintain LSP synchronization,
>>>> it would be good for some other TRILL switch on that ESADI virtual
>>>> link to occasionally send a CSNP. The multi-hop ESADI pseudo-link is
>>>> inherently somewhat less reliable that a link between adjacent TRILL
>>>> switches. (You might think this could result in a flurry of CSNPs but
>>>> note that, due to the jitter in the IS-IS reliable flooding mechanism,
>>>> if there were several non-DRB TRILL switches on the link, as soon as
>>>> one sends a CSNP it will inhibit the others for a while.)
>>>
>>>> Anyway, although it doesn't make much difference. It should probably
>>>> say "one" instead of "two" in the text and it should not just be that
>>>> it has not received a CSNP but that it has not received or sent a
>>>> CSNP. So, I think the wording should be changes to:
>>>
>>>>    "For robustness, if an ESADI instance has one or more ESADI neighbo=
rs
>>>>    and is not DRB and it does not receive or send an ESADI-CSNP PDU
>>>>    for at least the CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY
>>>>    transmit an ESADI-CSNP."
>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Donald
>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>>
>>>> > This line is a part of section 4.1 (Sending of ESADI PDUs) on page n=
umber
>>>> > 12.
>>>> >
>>>> > Please explain me what this line tries to convey.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > Swet
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> trill mailing list
>>>> trill@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> trill mailing list
>>> trill@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>>>

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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:57:40 -0400
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To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Subject: Re: [trill] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-05.txt
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Hi Thomas,

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> Hi Donald.
>
>> This draft has relatively small changes that are responding to a
>> Routing Directorate review. The most significant of these is that it
>> clarifies that packets are not forwarded through overloaded RBridges.
>> If you have a problem with any of these changes, please tell me or
>> post to the list.
>
> I took the above as an opportunity to review what the various TRILL
> specs say about handling "overload" situations.
>
> I gather that an overloaded RB sets the overload bit in its IS-IS
> advertisement to indicate "I have problems and may not work right".

Well, it really just means that the link state database has
overflowed. Thus the RBridge can't hold it all and anything that it
would calculate from that database, such as least cost paths, could be
wrong.

> OK. But what exactly are other RBs supposed to do with this info?

Except as specified in this draft, they should do what ISO/IEC
10589:2002 (the base IS-IS standard) says. ISO 10589 only talks about
unicast data but has appropriate provisions so that if there are only
scattered Intermediate Systems in overload, those ISs can still
originate and terminate packets but can't act as transit nodes.

> I would assume that for correctness/consistency, the safest thing to
> do is simply remove the RB from the topology and pretend it doesn't
> exist. i.e, stop using it or trying to forward traffic through
> it. Yes, this may result in suboptimal routes (or worse), but at least
> you'll get consistent behavior. If TRILL continues to forward traffic
> through RBs that aren't working right, you'll likely see more
> random/intermittent problems that are hard to debug/diagnose.

If you remove it from the topology, then no packets can reach and
possibly none can be originated by it. This makes maintenance (like
logging into it and re-booting it) harder. So it stays in the topology
and frames can be routed to it, but least cost paths are not allowed
that would go through it. (As I say, this only works for scattered
overloaded ISs. If you had a dense cluster of them, those on the
inside of the cluster, at least, would be unable to communicate.)

> That said, the clear-correct draft does say if the AF is the only RB
> connected to a particular VLAN at an edge, if you remove that RB from
> TRILL, the VLAN becomes unreachable. So it says don't do that.
>
> But going through the various spec, the published RFCs don't seem to
> say anything about the overload bit. (I didn't do an exhaustive
> search, but searching for the string "overload" in the RFCs shows
> almost nothing.)
>
> Where is the TRILL behavior wrt to using the overload flag documented?

As I say, the base behavior is the ISO standard. The Clarifications
and Corrections draft extends that  to cover multi-destination frames,
for example.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Thomas

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 23:25:03 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 02:25:33 -0400
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Cc: Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com>, "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Hi Thomas,

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> Seems to me that the MAY sentence all by itself is not helpful.
>
> If sending occasionaly ESADI-CSNPs increases robustness, IMO, the spec
> should say that and explain which scenarios its useful in. And then,
> MAY doens't seem right either. SHOULD would seem to make more sense...

I'm fine with SHOULD and including a sentence or two of justfication.
But it isn't actually occasionally at random, it is under specific
circumstances that indicate something is wrong and CSNPs are not being
received from the DRB.

> The RFC 2119 defintion of MAY says:
>
> 5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
>    truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
>    particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
>    it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
>    An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
>    prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
>    include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
>    same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
>    MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
>    does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
>    option provides.)
>
> which doesn't seem to match the explanation for why the MAY sentence
> is in the document.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Thomas
>
> Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>> Hi Swet,
>
>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com> =
wrote:
>> > Hi Authors,
>> >
>> >
>> > I am not able to understand the meaning of the following line in this =
draft:
>> > http://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00.pdf
>
>> Thanks for reviewing this document. It was just recently posted as a
>> WG document and I think it does need some more work.
>
>> > =93For robustness, if an ESADI instance has two or more ESADI neighbor=
s
>> >
>> >    and is not DRB and it receives no ESADI-CSNP PDUs for at least the
>> >
>> >    CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY transmit an ESADI-
>> >
>> >    CSNP.=94
>
>> Do you really no understand what the sentence says? Or is it that you
>> don't understand what the reason is for this behavior?
>
>> The idea is that if the DRB on an ESADI virtual link is being flakey
>> or the virtual link is broken then, to maintain LSP synchronization,
>> it would be good for some other TRILL switch on that ESADI virtual
>> link to occasionally send a CSNP. The multi-hop ESADI pseudo-link is
>> inherently somewhat less reliable that a link between adjacent TRILL
>> switches. (You might think this could result in a flurry of CSNPs but
>> note that, due to the jitter in the IS-IS reliable flooding mechanism,
>> if there were several non-DRB TRILL switches on the link, as soon as
>> one sends a CSNP it will inhibit the others for a while.)
>
>> Anyway, although it doesn't make much difference. It should probably
>> say "one" instead of "two" in the text and it should not just be that
>> it has not received a CSNP but that it has not received or sent a
>> CSNP. So, I think the wording should be changes to:
>
>>    "For robustness, if an ESADI instance has one or more ESADI neighbors
>>    and is not DRB and it does not receive or send an ESADI-CSNP PDU
>>    for at least the CSNP Time (see Section 6.1) of the DRB, it MAY
>>    transmit an ESADI-CSNP."
>
>> Thanks,
>> Donald
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>> > This line is a part of section 4.1 (Sending of ESADI PDUs) on page num=
ber
>> > 12.
>> >
>> > Please explain me what this line tries to convey.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Swet
>> _______________________________________________
>> trill mailing list
>> trill@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>

From narten@us.ibm.com  Thu Jul 19 03:44:33 2012
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To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
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Comments: In-reply-to Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> message dated "Thu, 19 Jul 2012 02:25:33 -0400."
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From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Cc: Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com>, "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Thomas,

> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> > Seems to me that the MAY sentence all by itself is not helpful.
> >
> > If sending occasionaly ESADI-CSNPs increases robustness, IMO, the spec
> > should say that and explain which scenarios its useful in. And then,
> > MAY doens't seem right either. SHOULD would seem to make more sense...

> I'm fine with SHOULD and including a sentence or two of justfication.
> But it isn't actually occasionally at random, it is under specific
> circumstances that indicate something is wrong and CSNPs are not being
> received from the DRB.

Then by all means please have the spec say that. The whole point of a
standard is to provide useful guidance to an implementor on whether
and when something should be implemented. Many (most?) implementors
will not be familiar with TRILL and its long WG history and will just
be going by what the spec says. 

Thomas


From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Sat Jul 21 20:32:16 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:32:55 -0400
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Subject: [trill] Draft TRILL Agenda for Vancouver
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Hi,

A draft agenda for the TRILL WG meeting at the upcoming IETF meeting
in Vancouver has been uploaded to the meeting materials site.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

From sujay.ietf@gmail.com  Sun Jul 22 18:34:11 2012
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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:04:01 +0530
From: Sujay Gupta <sujay.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [trill] ESADI draft change suggestion
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Hi,

1)

The ESADI protocol objectives as stated in the draft-04, IMO needs added 
statements.
Section 1: "Introduction"
 >>

The ESADI
    protocol's potential advantages over data plane learning include the
    following:

    1. Security advantages:..
    2. Fast update advantages:..
<<

w.r.t to Security advantages, albeit ESADI can make a authenticated entries an insecure ESADI increases
the security vulnerability then without it. My recommendation is to recommend a SHOULD clause to implement
security features. A secured deployment of TRILL may choose to live with a unsecured ESADI ( & therefore
possibly a more efficient/lighter ESADI); whilst a TRILL plane bridging 3rd party aggregation and application
layers may choose for trusted/secured model.

2)

This is w.r.t to learning of ESADI entries and timing them out. As per RFC 6325, the entries are expected
to be removed only by the originating RBridge.
>>
Section 4.8.3
"The situation is different for end-station address information acquired via the TRILL ESADI protocol.
It is up to the originating RBridge to decide when to remove such information from its ESADI LSPs
(or up to ESADI protocol timeouts if the originating RBridge becomes inaccessible)."
<<
  For robust behavior it would be better to timeout the entries without depending on ESADI, the reason
is a (wrong)ESADI directed forwarding can cause persistent traffic loss, unlike a best effort flood everywhere
situation. Therefore my recommendation is the specs should not 'mandate' the timing out behavior.

Best Regards,
-Sujay







--------------060808050000040506040300
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Hi,<br>
    <br>
    1)<br>
    <br>
    The ESADI protocol objectives as stated in the draft-04, IMO needs
    added statements.<br>
    Section 1: "Introduction"<br>
    &gt;&gt;<br>
    <pre class="newpage">The ESADI
   protocol's potential advantages over data plane learning include the
   following:

   1. Security advantages:..
   2. Fast update advantages:..
&lt;&lt;

w.r.t to Security advantages, albeit ESADI can make a authenticated entries an insecure ESADI increases
the security vulnerability then without it. My recommendation is to recommend a SHOULD clause to implement
security features. A secured deployment of TRILL may choose to live with a unsecured ESADI ( &amp; therefore
possibly a more efficient/lighter ESADI); whilst a TRILL plane bridging 3rd party aggregation and application
layers may choose for trusted/secured model.
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"></pre>
    <small><small><small><small></small></small></small></small>2)<br>
    <pre class="newpage">This is w.r.t to learning of ESADI entries and timing them out. As per RFC 6325, the entries are expected
to be removed only by the originating RBridge.
&gt;&gt;
Section 4.8.3
&#8220;The situation is different for end-station address information acquired via the TRILL ESADI protocol. 
It is up to the originating RBridge to decide when to remove such information from its ESADI LSPs 
(or up to ESADI protocol timeouts if the originating RBridge becomes inaccessible).&#8221;
&lt;&lt;
&nbsp;For robust behavior it would be better to timeout the entries without depending on ESADI, the reason 
is a (wrong)ESADI directed forwarding can cause persistent traffic loss, unlike a best effort flood everywhere 
situation. Therefore my recommendation is the specs should not 'mandate' the timing out behavior.

Best Regards,
-Sujay




</pre>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------060808050000040506040300--

From ssalam@cisco.com  Mon Jul 23 19:05:27 2012
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From: "Samer Salam (ssalam)" <ssalam@cisco.com>
To: "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Updated TRILL OAM Framework
Thread-Index: AQHNWLU4Y56Vxpdf4UaUM/9CKstBU5c3rp+A
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 02:05:25 +0000
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Cc: "Tissa Senevirathne \(tsenevir\)" <tsenevir@cisco.com>, "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, Sam Aldrin <sam.aldrin@gmail.com>
Subject: [trill] Updated TRILL OAM Framework
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Hi,

An updated version of the document has been uploaded, which incorporates
comments from Dan and others.

Feedback/comments appreciated.

Thanks
Samer

On 12-07-02 5:46 PM, "Samer Salam (ssalam)" <ssalam@cisco.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>We have published=20
>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-salam-trill-oam-framework which
>describes a proposed reference framework for TRILL OAM. The framework
>leverages concepts widely adopted in 802.1ag, RFC6136, RFC6371, etc...
>
>We invite and welcome your feedback on the initial draft.
>
>Thanks
>Samer=20
>
>_______________________________________________
>trill mailing list
>trill@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill


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From sujay.ietf@gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 03:19:46 2012
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Message-ID: <500FC839.1000509@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:49:37 +0530
From: Sujay Gupta <sujay.ietf@gmail.com>
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Cc: trill-bounces@ietf.org, trill@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [trill] ESADI draft change suggestion
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Hi,

Thanks for the response.

1.) The unsecured ESADI's, potential security issue, could be documented
in the "Security Considerations" section.
2.) The ESADI learned entry behavior,I agree with you explanation;
however the base RFC 6325 is not exactly worded so.
I would recommend if the correction can be added in the next RFC update
or clear-correct changes.
"

   For end-station address information locally learned from frames
   received, the time out from the last time a native frame was received
   or decapsulated with the information conforms to the recommendations
   of [802.1D <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#ref-802.1D>].  It is referred to as the "Ageing Time" and is
   configurable per RBridge with a range of from 10 seconds to 1,000,000
   seconds and a default value of 300 seconds.

   The situation is different for end-station address information
   acquired via the TRILL ESADI protocol.  It is up to the originating
   RBridge to decide when to remove such information from its ESADI LSPs
   (or up to ESADI protocol timeouts if the originating RBridge becomes
   inaccessible).

"

Best Regards,
-Sujay


On 25-07-2012 12:25, zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
> Hi Sujay，
>
> Sorry for delaying reponse. Thanks for the suggestion, please see
> in-line.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Zhai Hongjun
> """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
> Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&D Institute, ZTE Corporation
> No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China, 210012
>
> Zhai Hongjun
>
> Tel: +86-25-52877345
> Email: zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn
> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
>
>
>
>
> *Sujay Gupta <sujay.ietf@gmail.com>*
> 发件人: trill-bounces@ietf.org
>
> 2012-07-23 09:34
>
> 	
> 收件人
> 	trill@ietf.org
> 抄送
> 	
> 主题
> 	[trill] ESADI draft change suggestion
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> 1)
>
> The ESADI protocol objectives as stated in the draft-04, IMO needs
> added statements.
> Section 1: "Introduction"
> >>
> The ESADI
> protocol's potential advantages over data plane learning include the
> following:
>
> 1. Security advantages:..
> 2. Fast update advantages:..
> <<
>
> w.r.t to Security advantages, albeit ESADI can make a authenticated
> entries an insecure ESADI increases
> the security vulnerability then without it. My recommendation is to
> recommend a SHOULD clause to implement
> security features. A secured deployment of TRILL may choose to live
> with a unsecured ESADI ( & therefore
> possibly a more efficient/lighter ESADI); whilst a TRILL plane
> bridging 3rd party aggregation and application
> layers may choose for trusted/secured model.
>
> [Hongjun] Although security is one of ESADI's potential advantanges,
> but it is not a focal point in that draft. ESADI draft focuses on the
> general mechanism of ESADI protocol, then an ESADI instance can find
> its neighbors, exchange end station addresses and keep link state
> database synchronization with its neighbors. How an ESADI obtains its
> security features is out of the scope of that spec. Since there will
> be much work to do if we consider the security features, I think it is
> more suitable to discuss those features in a new draft than that spec.
> Therefore, I do not think such a "SHOULD clause" is suitable in that spec.
>
> 2)
> This is w.r.t to learning of ESADI entries and timing them out. As per
> RFC 6325, the entries are expected
> to be removed only by the originating RBridge.
> >>
> Section 4.8.3
> “The situation is different for end-station address information
> acquired via the TRILL ESADI protocol.
> It is up to the originating RBridge to decide when to remove such
> information from its ESADI LSPs
> (or up to ESADI protocol timeouts if the originating RBridge becomes
> inaccessible).”
> <<
> For robust behavior it would be better to timeout the entries without
> depending on ESADI, the reason
> is a (wrong)ESADI directed forwarding can cause persistent traffic
> loss, unlike a best effort flood everywhere
> situation. Therefore my recommendation is the specs should not
> 'mandate' the timing out behavior.
>
> [Hongjun] The spec gives two most common conditions under which an
> ESADI to time out some MAC addresses learned via ESADI (i.e., being
> told to do so by the originating RBridge or finding the originating
> RBridge inaccessible). But it does not mandate or imply that an ESADI
> can forget the learned MACs via ESADI only under the two conditions.
> Besides the two conditions, an ESADI can also decide to forget some
> learned MACs via ESADI based on local configured polices, for example,
> configured by administrator not to learn MACs from a specific ESADI
> RBridge.
>
>
> Best Regards,
> -Sujay
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> trill mailing list
> trill@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill
>


--------------020104080405010101060203
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<html>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=GB2312" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi,<br>
      <br>
      Thanks for the response.<br>
      <br>
      1.) The unsecured ESADI's, potential security issue, could be
      documented in the "Security Considerations" section.<br>
      2.) The ESADI learned entry behavior,I agree with you explanation;
      however the base RFC 6325 is not exactly worded so.<br>
      I would recommend if the correction can be added in the next RFC
      update or clear-correct changes.<br>
      "<br>
      <pre class="newpage">   For end-station address information locally learned from frames
   received, the time out from the last time a native frame was received
   or decapsulated with the information conforms to the recommendations
   of [<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6325#ref-802.1D" title="&quot;IEEE Standard for Local and metropolitan area networks / Media Access Control (MAC) Bridges&quot;">802.1D</a>].  It is referred to as the "Ageing Time" and is
   configurable per RBridge with a range of from 10 seconds to 1,000,000
   seconds and a default value of 300 seconds.

   The situation is different for end-station address information
   acquired via the TRILL ESADI protocol.  It is up to the originating
   RBridge to decide when to remove such information from its ESADI LSPs
   (or up to ESADI protocol timeouts if the originating RBridge becomes
   inaccessible).</pre>
      "<br>
      <br>
      Best Regards,<br>
      -Sujay<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 25-07-2012 12:25, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:OFC6602D69.6F6D8C4D-ON48257A46.0025E6D5-48257A46.00263B7E@zte.com.cn"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <font face="sans-serif" size="2">Hi Sujay，</font>
      <br>
      <br>
      <font face="sans-serif" size="2">Sorry for delaying reponse. </font><tt><font
          size="2">Thanks
          for the suggestion, please see in-line</font></tt><font
        face="sans-serif" size="2">.</font>
      <br>
      <font face="sans-serif" size="2"><br>
        <br>
        <br>
        Thanks,<br>
        Zhai Hongjun<br>
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""<br>
        Protocol Development Dept.VI, Central R&amp;D Institute, ZTE
        Corporation<br>
        No. 68, Zijinghua Road, Yuhuatai District, Nanjing, P.R.China,
        210012<br>
        <br>
        Zhai Hongjun<br>
        <br>
        Tel: +86-25-52877345<br>
        Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn">zhai.hongjun@zte.com.cn</a><br>
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""<br>
        <br>
      </font>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <table width="100%">
        <tbody>
          <tr valign="top">
            <td width="36%"><font face="sans-serif" size="1"><b>Sujay
                  Gupta <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sujay.ietf@gmail.com">&lt;sujay.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a></b>
              </font>
              <br>
              <font face="sans-serif" size="1">发件人:
                &nbsp;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:trill-bounces@ietf.org">trill-bounces@ietf.org</a></font>
              <p><font face="sans-serif" size="1">2012-07-23 09:34</font>
              </p>
            </td>
            <td width="63%">
              <table width="100%">
                <tbody>
                  <tr valign="top">
                    <td>
                      <div align="right"><font face="sans-serif"
                          size="1">收件人</font></div>
                    </td>
                    <td><font face="sans-serif" size="1"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:trill@ietf.org">trill@ietf.org</a></font>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr valign="top">
                    <td>
                      <div align="right"><font face="sans-serif"
                          size="1">抄送</font></div>
                    </td>
                    <td>
                      <br>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr valign="top">
                    <td>
                      <div align="right"><font face="sans-serif"
                          size="1">主题</font></div>
                    </td>
                    <td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">[trill] ESADI
                        draft change suggestion</font></td>
                  </tr>
                </tbody>
              </table>
              <br>
              <table>
                <tbody>
                  <tr valign="top">
                    <td>
                      <br>
                    </td>
                    <td><br>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                </tbody>
              </table>
              <br>
            </td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <font size="3">Hi,<br>
        <br>
        1)<br>
        <br>
        The ESADI protocol objectives as stated in the draft-04, IMO
        needs added
        statements.<br>
        Section 1: "Introduction"<br>
        &gt;&gt;</font>
      <br>
      <tt><font size="3">The ESADI<br>
          &nbsp; protocol's potential advantages over data plane learning
          include
          the<br>
          &nbsp; following:<br>
          <br>
          &nbsp; 1. Security advantages:..<br>
          &nbsp; 2. Fast update advantages:..<br>
          &lt;&lt;<br>
          <br>
          w.r.t to Security advantages, albeit ESADI can make a
          authenticated entries
          an insecure ESADI increases<br>
          the security vulnerability then without it. My recommendation
          is to recommend
          a SHOULD clause to implement<br>
          security features. A secured deployment of TRILL may choose to
          live with
          a unsecured ESADI ( &amp; therefore<br>
          possibly a more efficient/lighter ESADI); whilst a TRILL plane
          bridging
          3rd party aggregation and application<br>
          layers may choose for trusted/secured model.</font></tt>
      <br>
      <br>
      <tt><font color="#0082bf" size="3">[Hongjun] Although security is
          one of
          ESADI's potential advantanges, but it is not a focal point in
          that draft.
          ESADI draft focuses on the general mechanism of ESADI
          protocol, then an
          ESADI instance can find its neighbors, exchange end station
          addresses and
          keep link state database synchronization with its neighbors.
          How an ESADI
          obtains its security features is out of the scope of that
          spec. Since there
          will be much work to do if we consider the security features,
          I think it
          is more suitable to discuss those features in a new draft than
        </font></tt><tt><font color="#0080ff" size="3">that
          spec. Therefore, I do not think such a "SHOULD clause" is
          suitable
          in that spec.</font></tt><tt><font size="3"><br>
        </font></tt>
      <br>
      <font size="3">2)</font>
      <br>
      <tt><font size="3">This is w.r.t to learning of ESADI entries and
          timing
          them out. As per RFC 6325, the entries are expected<br>
          to be removed only by the originating RBridge.<br>
          &gt;&gt;<br>
          Section 4.8.3<br>
          “The situation is different for end-station address
          information acquired
          via the TRILL ESADI protocol. <br>
          It is up to the originating RBridge to decide when to remove
          such information
          from its ESADI LSPs <br>
          (or up to ESADI protocol timeouts if the originating RBridge
          becomes inaccessible).”<br>
          &lt;&lt;<br>
          For robust behavior it would be better to timeout the entries
          without
          depending on ESADI, the reason <br>
          is a (wrong)ESADI directed forwarding can cause persistent
          traffic loss,
          unlike a best effort flood everywhere <br>
          situation. Therefore my recommendation is the specs should not
          'mandate'
          the timing out behavior.</font></tt>
      <br>
      <br>
      <tt><font color="#0082bf" size="3">[Hongjun] The spec gives two
          most common
          conditions under which an ESADI to time out some MAC addresses
          learned
          via ESADI (i.e., being told to do so by the originating
          RBridge or finding
          the originating RBridge inaccessible). But it does not mandate
          or imply
          that an ESADI can forget the learned MACs via ESADI only under
          the two
          conditions. Besides the two conditions, an ESADI can also
          decide to forget
          some learned MACs via ESADI based on local configured polices,
          for example,
          configured by administrator not to learn MACs from a specific
          ESADI RBridge.<br>
        </font></tt><tt><font size="3"><br>
          <br>
          Best Regards,<br>
          -Sujay<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
        </font></tt>
      <br>
      <font size="3"><br>
      </font><tt><font size="2">_______________________________________________<br>
          trill mailing list<br>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:trill@ietf.org">trill@ietf.org</a><br>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trill</a><br>
        </font></tt>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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--------------020104080405010101060203--

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From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 08:24:03 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 11:23:40 -0400
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Subject: Re: [trill] ESADI draft change suggestion
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Hi,

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 9:34 PM, Sujay Gupta <sujay.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> 1)
> The ESADI protocol objectives as stated in the draft-04, IMO needs added
> statements.
> Section 1: "Introduction"
>>>
>
> The ESADI
>    protocol's potential advantages over data plane learning include the
>    following:
>
>    1. Security advantages:..
>    2. Fast update advantages:..
> <<
>
> w.r.t to Security advantages, albeit ESADI can make a authenticated entri=
es
> an insecure ESADI increases
> the security vulnerability then without it. My recommendation is to

I don't see why that would be true. If you are just learning from the
data plane, a forged multi-destination broadcast frame, either native
or TRILL Data, can cause bad MAC learning entries pretty easily
throughout the VLAN of the frame. Even an insecure ESADI is a little
better. To forge an ESADI frame that would be accepted, an adversary
would have to participate in the ESADI instance, create an acceptable
ESADI-LSP, make sure it didn't get back to the claimed originator so
the claimed originator does not send out a new one with incremented
sequence number to overwrite the forged ESADI information, etc. Of
course, I'm not claiming that "insecure ESADI" is secure; I'm just
saying it seems to me to be a little harder for an adversary to cause
bad MAC learning with ESADI than with data plane learning.

> recommend a SHOULD clause to implement
> security features. A secured deployment of TRILL may choose to live with =
a

Given that, as far as I can recall, there is no "SHOULD" in TRILL to
use any IS-IS authentication, although it is mentioned as a facility
available as a countermeasure against some threats, I don't see how it
makes sense to just put in a "SHOULD" for ESADI authentication. On the
other hand, it might make sense to say that if IS-IS authentication is
in use for IS-IS LSPs, then the default would be to use authentication
for ESADI. This would be similar to the provisions in the BFD over
TRILL draft.

> unsecured ESADI ( & therefore
> possibly a more efficient/lighter ESADI); whilst a TRILL plane bridging 3=
rd
> party aggregation and application
> layers may choose for trusted/secured model.
>
> 2)
>
> This is w.r.t to learning of ESADI entries and timing them out. As per RF=
C
> 6325, the entries are expected
> to be removed only by the originating RBridge.
>>>
> Section 4.8.3
> =93The situation is different for end-station address information acquire=
d via
> the TRILL ESADI protocol.
> It is up to the originating RBridge to decide when to remove such
> information from its ESADI LSPs
> (or up to ESADI protocol timeouts if the originating RBridge becomes
> inaccessible).=94
> <<
>  For robust behavior it would be better to timeout the entries without
> depending on ESADI, the reason
> is a (wrong)ESADI directed forwarding can cause persistent traffic loss,
> unlike a best effort flood everywhere
> situation. Therefore my recommendation is the specs should not 'mandate' =
the
> timing out behavior.

That's not how link state works. In general, you have to retain the
link state information from a remote router until you get an update or
until that remote router leaves the topology. And in the later case,
you still generally want to keep it around for a while (but not
actually use it) to minimize the effort to get the link state
synchronized if the remote router re-joins the topology.

Assume, for example, you have disabled data plane learning and are
depending on ESADI. How does it make any sense to "timeout" ESADI data
from a remote RBridge and suddenly have to send as unknown location
unicast the frames destined for MAC addresses attached to that remote
RBridge, which you had been informed about through ESADI?

Perhaps the wording could be clarified, but I don't see how it makes
any sense to "timeout" ESADI state from a remove RBridge as long as
that RBridge is still reachable and participating in ESADI, etc. And I
don't see how it makes any sense, assuming you are retaining the ESADI
state from such a remote RBridge, to "timeout" making use of that
state.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Best Regards,
> -Sujay

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 08:26:10 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 11:25:48 -0400
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To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Cc: Swet kumar <swet.kumar@ipinfusion.com>, "trill@ietf.org" <trill@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [trill] seeking help to understand a line from TRILL-ESADI draft
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Hi Thomas,

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:45 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hi Thomas,
>
>> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>> > Seems to me that the MAY sentence all by itself is not helpful.
>> >
>> > If sending occasionaly ESADI-CSNPs increases robustness, IMO, the spec
>> > should say that and explain which scenarios its useful in. And then,
>> > MAY doens't seem right either. SHOULD would seem to make more sense...
>
>> I'm fine with SHOULD and including a sentence or two of justfication.
>> But it isn't actually occasionally at random, it is under specific
>> circumstances that indicate something is wrong and CSNPs are not being
>> received from the DRB.
>
> Then by all means please have the spec say that. The whole point of a
> standard is to provide useful guidance to an implementor on whether
> and when something should be implemented. Many (most?) implementors
> will not be familiar with TRILL and its long WG history and will just
> be going by what the spec says.

OK, that can be included in the next revision.

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Thomas
>

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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 11:51:46 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEF6wSgOYpAUdf9j6=q+Jx8EyVJXFH4hL8M3sH4tzH_hUA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Abhinav Bhatia <nitks.abhinav@gmail.com>
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Cc: trill@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [trill] [rbridge] Query on draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00
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Hi,

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 5:51 AM, Abhinav Bhatia <nitks.abhinav@gmail.com> w=
rote:
> Hi Authors,
>
>
> I have query regarding  =93The ESADI (End Station Address Distribution
> Information) Protocol=94 as per  =93draft-ietf-trill-esadi-00=94
>
>
> According to draft in Section 5.2 Forgetting End Station Addresses
>
>
>    If RBridge RBn participating in the TRILL ESADI protocol for VLAN-x
>    is no longer appointed forwarder for VLAN-x on any port where it is
>    providing end station service, it ceases to participate in ESADI
>    after sending a final ESADI-LSP nulling out its ESADI-LSP
>    information.
>
>
> Above will remove/flush the learned L2 entries for that ESADI Rbridge for
> that vlan and also remove the neighbor ESADI instance entry.
>
>
> Q) What does =93nulling out=94 its ESADI-LSP information mean? Does it me=
ans
> removing the macs and sending an empty MAC Reachability TLV or does it me=
an
> that the ESADI LSP
>      wont contain any MAC Reachability TLV at all?

I don't see how it makes any difference. Since the RBridge doing this
is going to drop out of the ESADI instance anyway, the MAC
Reachability information it was originating is going to be ignored or
discarded soon anyway. I think sending out this final "empty" LSP
information just gets the word out a little faster.

> Q) In case if ESADI rbridge is AF for a vlan-x and  the only  End Station
> which was connected earlier, is removed now, then what will be sent in
> ESADI-LSP to flush L2 entries for that
>     vlan-x, will it be without MAC Reachability TLV? Please bear in mind
> that the RBridge has not lost AF for that particular vlan, but has no End
> Station to send in MAC Reachability
>     TLV.

Again, I don't see how it makes any difference whether it sends an
empty MAC Reachability TLV or send no MAC Reacability TLVs. Why can't
implementations do whichever is most convenient? (I suppose not
sending any MAC Reachability TLVs saves a tiny number of bytes...)

>     Please let me know for an ESADI RBridge  how to distinguish between
>
> 1>     when to remove learned L2 entries and

The way I look at it, an RBridge has number of sources of "MAC&VLAN ->
egress nickname" mapping entries. There are entries it has learned
from the data plane (possibly empty if data plane learning has been
disabled) or from Layer 2 registration protocols. There may be entries
in its ESADI state for various VLANs if it is participating in ESADI.
There can be manually configured mappings.

When any of these sources of mapping change, the RBridge makes the
appropriate change in its forwarding tables. You "remove learned L2
entries" on a different basis for different sources. For data plane
learning, it is timeout. For ESADI, it is state flooding. Etc.

> 2>     when to remove ESADI instance neighbor on receiving ESADI-LSP?

I think the mechanisms for recognizing ESADI instance neighbors in the
current draft are too complicated and can probably be simplified as
well as clarified.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Thanks,
> Abhinav

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jul 30 12:02:19 2012
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:02:17 -0700
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Subject: [trill] I-D Action: draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Li=
nks Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : TRILL: Clarifications, Corrections, and Updates
	Author(s)       : Donald Eastlake
                          Mingui Zhang
                          Anoop Ghanwani
                          Vishwas Manral
                          Ayan Banerjee
	Filename        : draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-06.txt
	Pages           : 31
	Date            : 2012-07-30

Abstract:
   The IETF TRILL (TRansparent Interconnection of Lots of Links)
   protocol provides least cost pair-wise data forwarding without
   configuration in multi-hop networks with arbitrary topology and link
   technology, safe forwarding even during periods of temporary loops,
   and support for multipathing of both unicast and multicast traffic.
   TRILL accomplishes this by using IS-IS (Intermediate System to
   Intermediate System) link state routing and by encapsulating traffic
   using a header that includes a hop count. Since the TRILL base
   protocol was approved in March 2010, active development of TRILL has
   revealed errata in the original RFC 6325 and some cases that could
   use clarifications or updates.

   RFC 6327 and RFC 6439 provide clarifications and updates with respect
   to Adjacency and Appointed Forwarders. This document provides other
   known clarifications, corrections, and updates to RFC 6325, RFC 6327,
   and RFC 6439.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-06

A diff from previous version is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-trill-clear-correct-06


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

