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15.00.1497.010; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:40:05 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] IETF 109 minutes + chair summary Thread-Index: AQHW++5SxQdoRdTwNUeYG8mfZnpw8A== Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:40:05 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.45.21011103 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <344568892542814F83291F8C68F19A1A@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.737 definitions=2021-02-05_10:2021-02-05, 2021-02-05 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=663 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X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 20:06:34 -0000 On 06-Feb-21 07:40, Salz, Rich wrote: > Thinking of your questions, does it make sense to charter a new WG as the home for all IETF policies and practices? Or do people think that will become too much? Veterans of poised, poised95, poisson, newtrk, pesci, iprwg (and others I have forgotten) might say: Good luck with that! I think a serious discussion with the incoming IETF Chair/General Area AD is needed. As the recent analysis of a subset of process documents over on rfced-future has shown, this is a very lively can of worms if you lift the lid off it. So will it become too much? Certainly. Should the IETF tackle it? Only if the IETF Chair and the IESG are really up for the effort involved. Brian From nobody Fri Feb 5 12:48:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D183A0813; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:48:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id js51zDif0HZz; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EAE63A0812; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id q72so4287477pjq.2; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 12:47:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=R5/ZXp/tvnjW5SiA7nymTFzyL7VdFrHsNqV+c6Hq4Ac=; b=smbX94er4s1uEeKLd9OIgCBbCyR+gDT9TjNRlCjcXiisMcw9aFPC5zA0DWpXvf5BFh Xv1rVm+IP0caQXuNEnloUl/KmXTKJXPlmO/RlBC0XyinHWJCLfqnGXEa72NeMuj7bLHF lHd7Y/AWN1Za3pkw4ePTgsX2PQ05K2E2dYuU4hVMVBdrVJLxaQqhbEIYleJ9xWGmTZxW rfiyo05z9Wu2tkLk7k9vzKRrwz0VnfB9N0nJQ9zMR5I/OHIiRFEZzVHqTgnjZ5b3LaQo LGO3CFLvtIK9t3yAcL1mT7bcGI7cRVutz7YkTnoui7ClQ1nwNV3sVMV9IdA/krLKtpi9 +yVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=R5/ZXp/tvnjW5SiA7nymTFzyL7VdFrHsNqV+c6Hq4Ac=; b=eKeYZ9WRtZunyKx+IqHqdPGoY2a2Gd2fHqYyPvACNVGS6pG87/S/5XacCN8WYdChNm 0zUHLIIFKx7LdznQrXa10FOyF3KDS1nVj0JIxfowL5XJx3dL1ve5EDFYHGrrr3JZnYe8 1N+XMrkTVt9WhEdwwXiA861JKkBXk/761+44/UKyhZ0YmLjqfa0EHZZZc9riE0e1DheD YR5lL9XcKOf7gYlooRZ39nramntGaGQJYt1T0XbSFbnhs99HMpikFZH4MbNh4iNDu4eq XvuKERODy/PydhUjO27SIl2N9dbFutHGu1YbQtRf4hDLI/THrsMKLjiVHrvn03HfYx5x cMvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532v0H8+8zGhASLk3q2UXCUyv5Y9w18ZT7eWt4+8C8LT+BDys/IE Nkow+i2AoWKtmObHNhdEI15LHS+GqA7kIg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxyA97FMhiNTw5kVqVb+UYJhu1PQwZADcdPAfnQoJF3Ob5+NtCgbHupygYk316KZho6GR/2bw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7007:b029:e2:b406:47a with SMTP id y7-20020a1709027007b02900e2b406047amr3828417plk.80.1612558077031; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 12:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f18sm1294063pjq.53.2021.02.05.12.47.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Feb 2021 12:47:56 -0800 (PST) To: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-ads@ietf.org" References: <8EF146BF-93BE-4066-B9B4-E5006F8AAF71@ericsson.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <88334d3a-c970-5927-f51f-22ff4239da39@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 09:47:51 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8EF146BF-93BE-4066-B9B4-E5006F8AAF71@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF 109 minutes + chair summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 20:48:00 -0000 > 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we work") I have some sympathy for this, BUT it seems to me that it is rather too late for that discussion, which should have applied when RFC7221 was under consideration. One could make a similar argument for RFC7282 ("On Consensus and Humming in the IETF") and probably some others. So a consistent proposal would be: a) identify all the RFCs of this type (not BCP rules, but friendly advice). b) review them all for errors & omissions c) make them all Historic RFCs d) add all the material either into the Tao or in How we Work. (Note for Greg: the Tao really should be cross-linked from How we Work.) So in answer to > QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating RFC 7221 with clarified text, would this be an acceptable alternative? Yes, as part of a wider initiative, because it isn't just this RFC. And I'd point at the EMO Directorate as the responsible body. If they won't take it on, I think it needs a dedicated mailing list as a focus (probably not a WG, but that's for the incoming General AD to decide). Regards Brian Carpenter On 06-Feb-21 04:41, Francesca Palombini wrote: > Hi all, > > Apologies for the delay getting this email out. > As you might have seen, the minutes from IETF 109 have been posted: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/minutes-109-gendispatch-00 If you have any corrections, please let me know. > > Here comes my personal summary of the discussion on draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis so far. Please note that this is my personal understanding, I haven't had the chance to get it approved by my co-chair, but didn't want to delay any longer. I am looking for answers to the questions below, as well as comments if you believe I missed or mischaracterized anything. > > --- > Firstly, there was rough consensus in the room that, as it stands now, the working group procedures in the IETF are not clearly described. This ambiguity is reflected in RFC 7221. It is hard to find information about the practical ways of working in IETF wgs, which is a problem especially for getting new people actively involved. > I understood from the discussion in the room that there was rough consensus that we need to do something about it. > > The authors of draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis have written an update to RFC 7221 (that would obsolete it) with the intent to clarify the existing information. If this document (7221bis) was to move forward, I heard most voices supporting this document being published want it to move forward as informational. A couple of people have expressed the need for a BCP, but from my understanding this draft would not be the start of such a BCP. > > Objections to this document being published as informational were raised, stating that too often informational RFCs are taken as rules. There was strong voices in the room in both directions about if any text would be helpful to clarify that this is a purely descriptive document, not to be taken as guidelines or rules. > > I want to note that this is a much bigger conversation than the draft that we are trying to dispatch, but we can't really recommend one outcome for this particular document without considering the bigger picture. As a result, my first recommendation would be to set up a mailing list to have a venue to continue this discussion on the content of 7221bis - clarifying IETF ways of working. > > Possible dispatching outcomes (in no particular order) that are, in my opinion, the most likely outcomes based on the discussion are described below. I added some questions, which are of course conditional on the outcome. > > 1) Publish the draft as informational > > - work on the text in the newly created list, but also get feedback from wg chairs list and ietf@ietf > QUESTION1: afaict this was not addressed during the meeting - does anybody feel like a wg should be created for this? (as opposed to AD sponsored, and advertised on the lists above) > > - be careful that the document is clearly descriptive and does NOT provide guidance > QUESTION2: I want to re-iterate the question to those who objected to this outcome - knowing that there is already a note in the introduction about it - is there any additional modifications that would make you comfortable with this outcome? > > - after publishing, point to it from the website, training etc. > > 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we work"). > > - the text still needs review. The newly created list could be used, plus updates could be made on the wg-chairs and ietf@ietf lists. > > - We would need to make sure duplicated info is not happening (7221 vs website) > * During the meeting the question came up if the IESG could mark RFC 7221 as historic (if we can do that for informational), possibly linking from the datatracker to the website. We could follow the example of RFC 6722 for the Tao, and obsolete RFC 7221 with such a document, while pointing to the webpage. > QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating RFC 7221 with clarified text, would this be an acceptable alternative? > > Additionally (and out of scope of our dispatching discussion) I wanted to note that it was brought up that there might be need to revise RFC 2418. This could be the BCP which was mentioned above. > --- > > Thanks, > Francesca > From nobody Fri Feb 5 12:52:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3203A084D for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:52:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hu44fkgOlIRm for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 264463A0855 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id q12so11705882lfo.12 for ; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 12:52:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=et05r8RVK3nV2P7zZHHuCW31cg6Eh9BhjW6fwUZ9wU8=; b=uduLsS/Qd6DVrLb1Dqu6Tb/r8Ah42gQRdpU84PhuNr7Kp++p8kQH5TE99dgPEsYPyG 1oMuhGzzHjJS6tuU1xiRa5tW+bhUepKdo3sAiAmbJig8AqwdKbdOVbfewTal8Ifj43vQ XjVmwPQNsaC52JRrSXSrhjF3J0ZyQ7mkWBDPYF1/h0CUWIYJjC9yHs2iwuZGiK9MftY2 HKg4LpcHBXQEbarrwxYz/s9kwIff2psqtWj2ZkFucLEKdf3vafC9TSycFxExlgZjQQx0 Yul72za+3nqMrKSKd4+avFpkcVcvyzfLKUAJET3nueYMtgoiDf42MbejNKkmsy4G1Zdl tCug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=et05r8RVK3nV2P7zZHHuCW31cg6Eh9BhjW6fwUZ9wU8=; b=W/UezE4ivm6EUP9POjyxsX2NmKisLZKGlwUdHfL1ha+vxpLdE9Al1I5qIcjS3oYjjX pb0nT20WeJ/ffgNeegjrY0tk5YcEltSnG0h/af1YGKsWX8eMdNwg5mXzcUSuGa9j77FP mer52mZcnxQW3Su2oFCdgxJXq+OVD/68dE7cLmFoV7NV9tG04FlnNuMrcGqIrgrjKFlP z8fItmrpMyVgDreOuV/T9aV7lmmpXLHoCavU5ajUL8fn0ZPEehaSRYdto8SAeETw4jxj Dk2xiViGt5AwTzcahLNcDNg/C6LXpWKN8oHbbgGLvvUnChe1w1U3Xqoo/OwkU3KDBNls dsZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530PlngT5OGb66++8FsJSdsr7Zsy2++S4ixx8kjgufTy6RI45523 P+ji0PzkcZGLqJ0TTRe8MVH7SnQv2dmUKyktcGLikywxzOkBgQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJySD2p8k/DAiD7fiaM7p9YZKRYiX2H88L0X/NTTNqD3xm5aw4kOuHqhY/Q9wQDcxRA4BGGQ6BITYljBIHgUXa0= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6410:: with SMTP id y16mr3479989lfb.113.1612558373324; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 12:52:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8EF146BF-93BE-4066-B9B4-E5006F8AAF71@ericsson.com> <88334d3a-c970-5927-f51f-22ff4239da39@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <88334d3a-c970-5927-f51f-22ff4239da39@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:52:17 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-ads@ietf.org" , "draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005a4a305ba9d01e1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF 109 minutes + chair summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 20:52:58 -0000 --00000000000005a4a305ba9d01e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:48 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the Tao, > publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we work") > > I have some sympathy for this, BUT it seems to me that it is rather too > late for that discussion, which should have applied when RFC7221 was under > consideration. One could make a similar argument for RFC7282 ("On Consensus > and Humming in the IETF") and probably some others. So a consistent > proposal would be: > a) identify all the RFCs of this type (not BCP rules, but friendly advice). > b) review them all for errors & omissions > c) make them all Historic RFCs > d) add all the material either into the Tao or in How we Work. > > (Note for Greg: the Tao really should be cross-linked from How we Work. > Brian, This sounds like generally a great way forward. One thing I would like to make sure is that we properly label these when we pull them into the Tao or the like. In particular, as I mentioned at the meeting, 7278 is explicitly framed as one opinion; as there are pieces of it that I disagree with I wouldn't want to see it accidentally turned into the IETF's opinion without the appropriate level of consensus determination. -Ekr So in answer to > > > QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating RFC 7221 with > clarified text, would this be an acceptable alternative? > > Yes, as part of a wider initiative, because it isn't just this RFC. And > I'd point at the EMO Directorate as the responsible body. If they won't > take it on, I think it needs a dedicated mailing list as a focus (probably > not a WG, but that's for the incoming General AD to decide). > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 06-Feb-21 04:41, Francesca Palombini wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Apologies for the delay getting this email out. > > As you might have seen, the minutes from IETF 109 have been posted: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/minutes-109-gendispatch-00 > If you have any corrections, please let me know. > > > > Here comes my personal summary of the discussion on > draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis so far. Please note that this is my > personal understanding, I haven't had the chance to get it approved by my > co-chair, but didn't want to delay any longer. I am looking for answers to > the questions below, as well as comments if you believe I missed or > mischaracterized anything. > > > > --- > > Firstly, there was rough consensus in the room that, as it stands now, > the working group procedures in the IETF are not clearly described. This > ambiguity is reflected in RFC 7221. It is hard to find information about > the practical ways of working in IETF wgs, which is a problem especially > for getting new people actively involved. > > I understood from the discussion in the room that there was rough > consensus that we need to do something about it. > > > > The authors of draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis have written an > update to RFC 7221 (that would obsolete it) with the intent to clarify the > existing information. If this document (7221bis) was to move forward, I > heard most voices supporting this document being published want it to move > forward as informational. A couple of people have expressed the need for a > BCP, but from my understanding this draft would not be the start of such a > BCP. > > > > Objections to this document being published as informational were > raised, stating that too often informational RFCs are taken as rules. There > was strong voices in the room in both directions about if any text would > be helpful to clarify that this is a purely descriptive document, not to be > taken as guidelines or rules. > > > > I want to note that this is a much bigger conversation than the draft > that we are trying to dispatch, but we can't really recommend one outcome > for this particular document without considering the bigger picture. As a > result, my first recommendation would be to set up a mailing list to have a > venue to continue this discussion on the content of 7221bis - clarifying > IETF ways of working. > > > > Possible dispatching outcomes (in no particular order) that are, in my > opinion, the most likely outcomes based on the discussion are described > below. I added some questions, which are of course conditional on the > outcome. > > > > 1) Publish the draft as informational > > > > - work on the text in the newly created list, but also get > feedback from wg chairs list and ietf@ietf > > QUESTION1: afaict this was not addressed during the meeting > - does anybody feel like a wg should be created for this? (as opposed to AD > sponsored, and advertised on the lists above) > > > > - be careful that the document is clearly descriptive and does NOT > provide guidance > > QUESTION2: I want to re-iterate the question to those who > objected to this outcome - knowing that there is already a note in the > introduction about it - is there any additional modifications that would > make you comfortable with this outcome? > > > > - after publishing, point to it from the website, training etc. > > > > 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the Tao, > publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we work"). > > > > - the text still needs review. The newly created list could be > used, plus updates could be made on the wg-chairs and ietf@ietf lists. > > > > - We would need to make sure duplicated info is not happening > (7221 vs website) > > * During the meeting the question came up if the IESG could > mark RFC 7221 as historic (if we can do that for informational), possibly > linking from the datatracker to the website. We could follow the example of > RFC 6722 for the Tao, and obsolete RFC 7221 with such a document, while > pointing to the webpage. > > QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating RFC > 7221 with clarified text, would this be an acceptable alternative? > > > > Additionally (and out of scope of our dispatching discussion) I wanted > to note that it was brought up that there might be need to revise RFC 2418. > This could be the BCP which was mentioned above. > > --- > > > > Thanks, > > Francesca > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000005a4a305ba9d01e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:48 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the tex= t like the Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we work"= ;)

I have some sympathy for this, BUT it seems to me that it is rather too lat= e for that discussion, which should have applied when RFC7221 was under con= sideration. One could make a similar argument for RFC7282 ("On Consens= us and Humming in the IETF") and probably some others. So a consistent= proposal would be:
a) identify all the RFCs of this type (not BCP rules, but friendly advice).=
b) review them all for errors & omissions
c) make them all Historic RFCs
d) add all the material either into the Tao or in How we Work.

(Note for Greg: the Tao really should be cross-linked from How we Work.
=

Brian,

This sound= s like generally a great way forward. One thing I would like to make sure i= s that we properly label these when we pull them into the Tao or the like. = In particular, as I mentioned at the meeting, 7278 is explicitly framed as = one opinion; as there are pieces of it that I disagree with I wouldn't = want to see it accidentally turned into the IETF's opinion without the = appropriate level of consensus determination.

= -Ekr

So in answer to

> QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating RFC 7221 with c= larified text, would this be an acceptable alternative?

Yes, as part of a wider initiative, because it isn't just this RFC. And= I'd point at the EMO Directorate as the responsible body. If they won&= #39;t take it on, I think it needs a dedicated mailing list as a focus (pro= bably not a WG, but that's for the incoming General AD to decide).

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter

On 06-Feb-21 04:41, Francesca Palombini wrote:
>=C2=A0 Hi all,
>
> Apologies for the delay getting this email out.
> As you might have seen, the minutes from IETF 109 have been posted: https://datatracker.ietf.= org/meeting/109/materials/minutes-109-gendispatch-00 If you have any co= rrections, please let me know.
>
> Here comes my personal summary of the discussion on draft-carpenter-ge= ndispatch-rfc7221bis so far. Please note that this is my personal understan= ding, I haven't had the chance to get it approved by my co-chair, but d= idn't want to delay any longer. I am looking for answers to the questio= ns below, as well as comments if you believe I missed or mischaracterized a= nything.
>
> ---
> Firstly, there was rough consensus in the room that, as it stands now,= the working group procedures in the IETF are not clearly described. This a= mbiguity is reflected in RFC 7221. It is hard to find information about the= practical ways of working in IETF wgs, which is a problem especially for g= etting new people actively involved.
> I understood from the discussion in the room that there was rough cons= ensus that we need to do something about it.
>
> The authors of draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis have written an = update to RFC 7221 (that would obsolete it) with the intent to clarify the = existing information. If this document (7221bis) was to move forward, I hea= rd most voices supporting this document being published want it to move for= ward as informational. A couple of people have expressed the need for a BCP= , but from my understanding this draft would not be the start of such a BCP= .
>
> Objections to this document being published as informational were rais= ed, stating that too often informational RFCs are taken as rules. There was= strong voices in the room in=C2=A0 both directions about if any text would= be helpful to clarify that this is a purely descriptive document, not to b= e taken as guidelines or rules.
>
> I want to note that this is a much bigger conversation than the draft = that we are trying to dispatch, but we can't really recommend one outco= me for this particular document without considering the bigger picture. As = a result, my first recommendation would be to set up a mailing list to have= a venue to continue this discussion on the content of 7221bis - clarifying= IETF ways of working.
>
> Possible dispatching outcomes (in no particular order) that are, in my= opinion, the most likely outcomes based on the discussion are described be= low. I added some questions, which are of course conditional on the outcome= .
>
> 1) Publish the draft as informational
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- work on the text in the newly created list= , but also get feedback from wg chairs list and ietf@ietf
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0QUESTION1: afaict this = was not addressed during the meeting - does anybody feel like a wg should b= e created for this? (as opposed to AD sponsored, and advertised on the list= s above)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- be careful that the document is clearly de= scriptive and does NOT provide guidance
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0QUESTION2: I want to re= -iterate the question to those who objected to this outcome - knowing that = there is already a note in the introduction about it - is there any additio= nal modifications that would make you comfortable with this outcome?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- after publishing, point to it from the web= site, training etc.
>
> 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the Tao, = publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we work").
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the text still needs review. The newly cre= ated list could be used, plus updates could be made on the wg-chairs and ie= tf@ietf lists.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- We would need to make sure duplicated info= is not happening (7221 vs website)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* During the meeting th= e question came up if the IESG could mark RFC 7221 as historic (if we can d= o that for informational), possibly linking from the datatracker to the web= site. We could follow the example of RFC 6722 for the Tao, and obsolete RFC= 7221 with such a document, while pointing to the webpage.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0QUESTION3: To authors a= nd those who preferred updating RFC 7221 with clarified text, would this be= an acceptable alternative?
>
> Additionally (and out of scope of our dispatching discussion) I wanted= to note that it was brought up that there might be need to revise RFC 2418= . This could be the BCP which was mentioned above.
> ---
>
> Thanks,
> Francesca
>

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
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Sat, 06 Feb 2021 13:16:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 9sm4087941pfw.48.2021.02.06.13.16.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 06 Feb 2021 13:16:19 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-ads@ietf.org" , "draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" References: <8EF146BF-93BE-4066-B9B4-E5006F8AAF71@ericsson.com> <88334d3a-c970-5927-f51f-22ff4239da39@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <28a8c71d-b794-f1bf-5c8a-e89f64485616@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 10:16:14 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF 109 minutes + chair summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 21:16:24 -0000 7278? I don't think so... We could at least build a list of this class of RFC to size the problem. Regards Brian On 06-Feb-21 09:52, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:48 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 > > 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the = Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we= work") >=20 > I have some sympathy for this, BUT it seems to me that it is rather= too late for that discussion, which should have applied when RFC7221 was= under consideration. One could make a similar argument for RFC7282 ("On = Consensus and Humming in the IETF") and probably some others. So a consis= tent proposal would be: > a) identify all the RFCs of this type (not BCP rules, but friendly = advice). > b) review them all for errors & omissions > c) make them all Historic RFCs > d) add all the material either into the Tao or in How we Work. >=20 > (Note for Greg: the Tao really should be cross-linked from How we W= ork. >=20 >=20 > Brian, >=20 > This sounds like generally a great way forward. One thing I would like = to make sure is that we properly label these when we pull them into the T= ao or the like. In particular, as I mentioned at the meeting, 7278 is exp= licitly framed as one opinion; as there are pieces of it that I disagree = with I wouldn't want to see it accidentally turned into the IETF's opinio= n without the appropriate level of consensus determination. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 > So in answer to >=20 > > QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating RFC 7221 w= ith clarified text, would this be an acceptable alternative? >=20 > Yes, as part of a wider initiative, because it isn't just this RFC.= And I'd point at the EMO Directorate as the responsible body. If they wo= n't take it on, I think it needs a dedicated mailing list as a focus (pro= bably not a WG, but that's for the incoming General AD to decide). >=20 > Regards > =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter >=20 > On 06-Feb-21 04:41, Francesca Palombini wrote: > >=C2=A0 Hi all, > > > > Apologies for the delay getting this email out. > > As you might have seen, the minutes from IETF 109 have been poste= d: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/minutes-109-gendisp= atch-00 If you have any corrections, please let me know. > > > > Here comes my personal summary of the discussion on draft-carpent= er-gendispatch-rfc7221bis so far. Please note that this is my personal un= derstanding, I haven't had the chance to get it approved by my co-chair, = but didn't want to delay any longer. I am looking for answers to the ques= tions below, as well as comments if you believe I missed or mischaracteri= zed anything. > > > > --- > > Firstly, there was rough consensus in the room that, as it stands= now, the working group procedures in the IETF are not clearly described.= This ambiguity is reflected in RFC 7221. It is hard to find information = about the practical ways of working in IETF wgs, which is a problem espec= ially for getting new people actively involved. > > I understood from the discussion in the room that there was rough= consensus that we need to do something about it. > > > > The authors of draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis have writte= n an update to RFC 7221 (that would obsolete it) with the intent to clari= fy the existing information. If this document (7221bis) was to move forwa= rd, I heard most voices supporting this document being published want it = to move forward as informational. A couple of people have expressed the n= eed for a BCP, but from my understanding this draft would not be the star= t of such a BCP. > > > > Objections to this document being published as informational were= raised, stating that too often informational RFCs are taken as rules. Th= ere was strong voices in the room in=C2=A0 both directions about if any t= ext would be helpful to clarify that this is a purely descriptive documen= t, not to be taken as guidelines or rules. > > > > I want to note that this is a much bigger conversation than the d= raft that we are trying to dispatch, but we can't really recommend one ou= tcome for this particular document without considering the bigger picture= =2E As a result, my first recommendation would be to set up a mailing lis= t to have a venue to continue this discussion on the content of 7221bis -= clarifying IETF ways of working. > > > > Possible dispatching outcomes (in no particular order) that are, = in my opinion, the most likely outcomes based on the discussion are descr= ibed below. I added some questions, which are of course conditional on th= e outcome. > > > > 1) Publish the draft as informational > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- work on the text in the newly created= list, but also get feedback from wg chairs list and ietf@ietf > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0QUESTION1: afaict = this was not addressed during the meeting - does anybody feel like a wg s= hould be created for this? (as opposed to AD sponsored, and advertised on= the lists above) > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- be careful that the document is clear= ly descriptive and does NOT provide guidance > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0QUESTION2: I want = to re-iterate the question to those who objected to this outcome - knowin= g that there is already a note in the introduction about it - is there an= y additional modifications that would make you comfortable with this outc= ome? > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- after publishing, point to it from th= e website, training etc. > > > > 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the = Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we= work"). > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the text still needs review. The newl= y created list could be used, plus updates could be made on the wg-chairs= and ietf@ietf lists. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- We would need to make sure duplicated= info is not happening (7221 vs website) > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* During the meeti= ng the question came up if the IESG could mark RFC 7221 as historic (if w= e can do that for informational), possibly linking from the datatracker t= o the website. We could follow the example of RFC 6722 for the Tao, and o= bsolete RFC 7221 with such a document, while pointing to the webpage. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0QUESTION3: To auth= ors and those who preferred updating RFC 7221 with clarified text, would = this be an acceptable alternative? > > > > Additionally (and out of scope of our dispatching discussion) I w= anted to note that it was brought up that there might be need to revise R= FC 2418. This could be the BCP which was mentioned above. > > --- > > > > Thanks, > > Francesca > > >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 From nobody Sat Feb 6 13:23:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D448D3A2C45 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 13:23:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HAPCE-ZJa5xK for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 13:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com (mail-lf1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FF763A2C40 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 13:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id b2so16082261lfq.0 for ; Sat, 06 Feb 2021 13:23:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uN/SQtXQGCe9ky4tyL3VRvGLmQuOBazizlblKSLnd6Y=; b=FZt9oBcjFqvUj/dfES0tOBDHAIGyheAsprJZPsC9X3pKMAOtjotDRyW+TzGWAPxGt/ 9nhSE2wSfCTryJwU3DB83APud2JM2+14g+1UUxrIHNQbhJoAkiJzao6cezjW6jVGN5vA OnSLF95sgL/HvnbYKQzma2cFpwmaeOgmd9rfDMTkiIbioRtdhKK1bEon99ewW8MsQYfX TWcGdaVNYpoL+IZJoLKdzJKlswYYrtuZm3yJUhKCgtJzII6Gvrt7eytOti43dq4WeMOo ynWcMuVfZ2GQRyNwUkkTdYKHIkCsCTJd9Q+HluFSySYOaknwWNQKY4TLBKf2mQ7uEP75 LHhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uN/SQtXQGCe9ky4tyL3VRvGLmQuOBazizlblKSLnd6Y=; b=mvU14W1IcsZ5vvaeUesQWlP2sKtKCb7YkMkVsgcfEU80ZdLDkf604NJyJXFYo2GID6 B6qezJHoZ2jFFEB1My+uwM3cNnVQQrQnW195MewsObga0XUrUgYLhxBttaJ8ugCio56r w0eh5gnX3ogse9/SlRaT+xUjMWCWvU8syIhfeJ/vNHd2syXy6bzalFb32aFbotJT3GMY CJJUV4GedaFuStL7iXv5kFkJvNOOMufWxh0oln9byPFokbnA70uUXi1seBCp0upRKhTR OqNNsHMPYdcYkjA2gyRLkOPtDU3piflfCCXS4oomGBlH3CueDaHNf4yh1af7KCUG1WSb 5EzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5328uoxqMYJKj+K4u57gNiiryWzX2pB/NeODffe5LyXFAjDpIk48 ypHBldVHCrt++DGivumnu/u80uNYC21Ka6Sj7ItBUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw2CnjdLomPJpxcTh20gokYZiemT5K9saVuYC7zyGC76/qzgAnus33LiQLrncR3Gnm2qajtXFxn+rn847JI8kc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c519:: with SMTP id w25mr6063698lfe.16.1612646605843; Sat, 06 Feb 2021 13:23:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8EF146BF-93BE-4066-B9B4-E5006F8AAF71@ericsson.com> <88334d3a-c970-5927-f51f-22ff4239da39@gmail.com> <28a8c71d-b794-f1bf-5c8a-e89f64485616@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <28a8c71d-b794-f1bf-5c8a-e89f64485616@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 13:22:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-ads@ietf.org" , "draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000017053405bab18c62" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF 109 minutes + chair summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 21:23:34 -0000 --00000000000017053405bab18c62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 1:16 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > 7278? I don't think so... > Sorry. 7282. -Ekr > We could at least build a list of this class of RFC to size the problem. > > Regards > Brian > > On 06-Feb-21 09:52, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:48 PM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the > Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we > work") > > > > I have some sympathy for this, BUT it seems to me that it is rather > too late for that discussion, which should have applied when RFC7221 was > under consideration. One could make a similar argument for RFC7282 ("On > Consensus and Humming in the IETF") and probably some others. So a > consistent proposal would be: > > a) identify all the RFCs of this type (not BCP rules, but friendly > advice). > > b) review them all for errors & omissions > > c) make them all Historic RFCs > > d) add all the material either into the Tao or in How we Work. > > > > (Note for Greg: the Tao really should be cross-linked from How we > Work. > > > > > > Brian, > > > > This sounds like generally a great way forward. One thing I would like > to make sure is that we properly label these when we pull them into the Tao > or the like. In particular, as I mentioned at the meeting, 7278 is > explicitly framed as one opinion; as there are pieces of it that I disagree > with I wouldn't want to see it accidentally turned into the IETF's opinion > without the appropriate level of consensus determination. > > > > -Ekr > > > > So in answer to > > > > > QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating RFC 7221 > with clarified text, would this be an acceptable alternative? > > > > Yes, as part of a wider initiative, because it isn't just this RFC. > And I'd point at the EMO Directorate as the responsible body. If they won't > take it on, I think it needs a dedicated mailing list as a focus (probably > not a WG, but that's for the incoming General AD to decide). > > > > Regards > > Brian Carpenter > > > > On 06-Feb-21 04:41, Francesca Palombini wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Apologies for the delay getting this email out. > > > As you might have seen, the minutes from IETF 109 have been > posted: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/minutes-109-gendispatch-00 > If you have any corrections, please let me know. > > > > > > Here comes my personal summary of the discussion on > draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis so far. Please note that this is my > personal understanding, I haven't had the chance to get it approved by my > co-chair, but didn't want to delay any longer. I am looking for answers to > the questions below, as well as comments if you believe I missed or > mischaracterized anything. > > > > > > --- > > > Firstly, there was rough consensus in the room that, as it stands > now, the working group procedures in the IETF are not clearly described. > This ambiguity is reflected in RFC 7221. It is hard to find information > about the practical ways of working in IETF wgs, which is a problem > especially for getting new people actively involved. > > > I understood from the discussion in the room that there was rough > consensus that we need to do something about it. > > > > > > The authors of draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis have written > an update to RFC 7221 (that would obsolete it) with the intent to clarify > the existing information. If this document (7221bis) was to move forward, I > heard most voices supporting this document being published want it to move > forward as informational. A couple of people have expressed the need for a > BCP, but from my understanding this draft would not be the start of such a > BCP. > > > > > > Objections to this document being published as informational were > raised, stating that too often informational RFCs are taken as rules. There > was strong voices in the room in both directions about if any text would > be helpful to clarify that this is a purely descriptive document, not to be > taken as guidelines or rules. > > > > > > I want to note that this is a much bigger conversation than the > draft that we are trying to dispatch, but we can't really recommend one > outcome for this particular document without considering the bigger > picture. As a result, my first recommendation would be to set up a mailing > list to have a venue to continue this discussion on the content of 7221bis > - clarifying IETF ways of working. > > > > > > Possible dispatching outcomes (in no particular order) that are, > in my opinion, the most likely outcomes based on the discussion are > described below. I added some questions, which are of course conditional on > the outcome. > > > > > > 1) Publish the draft as informational > > > > > > - work on the text in the newly created list, but also get > feedback from wg chairs list and ietf@ietf > > > QUESTION1: afaict this was not addressed during the > meeting - does anybody feel like a wg should be created for this? (as > opposed to AD sponsored, and advertised on the lists above) > > > > > > - be careful that the document is clearly descriptive and > does NOT provide guidance > > > QUESTION2: I want to re-iterate the question to those > who objected to this outcome - knowing that there is already a note in the > introduction about it - is there any additional modifications that would > make you comfortable with this outcome? > > > > > > - after publishing, point to it from the website, training > etc. > > > > > > 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat the text like the > Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org "how we > work"). > > > > > > - the text still needs review. The newly created list could > be used, plus updates could be made on the wg-chairs and ietf@ietf lists. > > > > > > - We would need to make sure duplicated info is not > happening (7221 vs website) > > > * During the meeting the question came up if the IESG > could mark RFC 7221 as historic (if we can do that for informational), > possibly linking from the datatracker to the website. We could follow the > example of RFC 6722 for the Tao, and obsolete RFC 7221 with such a > document, while pointing to the webpage. > > > QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating > RFC 7221 with clarified text, would this be an acceptable alternative? > > > > > > Additionally (and out of scope of our dispatching discussion) I > wanted to note that it was brought up that there might be need to revise > RFC 2418. This could be the BCP which was mentioned above. > > > --- > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Francesca > > > > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > --00000000000017053405bab18c62 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 1:16 PM Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
7278? I don't think so...

Sorry. 7282.

-Ekr


We could at least build a list of this class of RFC to size the problem.
Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

On 06-Feb-21 09:52, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:48 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co= m <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat= the text like the Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org <http://ietf.org&= gt; "how we work")
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have some sympathy for this, BUT it seems to me t= hat it is rather too late for that discussion, which should have applied wh= en RFC7221 was under consideration. One could make a similar argument for R= FC7282 ("On Consensus and Humming in the IETF") and probably some= others. So a consistent proposal would be:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a) identify all the RFCs of this type (not BCP rule= s, but friendly advice).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b) review them all for errors & omissions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c) make them all Historic RFCs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d) add all the material either into the Tao or in H= ow we Work.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Note for Greg: the Tao really should be cross-link= ed from How we Work.
>
>
> Brian,
>
> This sounds like generally a great way forward. One thing I would like= to make sure is that we properly label these when we pull them into the Ta= o or the like. In particular, as I mentioned at the meeting, 7278 is explic= itly framed as one opinion; as there are pieces of it that I disagree with = I wouldn't want to see it accidentally turned into the IETF's opini= on without the appropriate level of consensus determination.
>
> -Ekr
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So in answer to
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred = updating RFC 7221 with clarified text, would this be an acceptable alternat= ive?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes, as part of a wider initiative, because it isn&= #39;t just this RFC. And I'd point at the EMO Directorate as the respon= sible body. If they won't take it on, I think it needs a dedicated mail= ing list as a focus (probably not a WG, but that's for the incoming Gen= eral AD to decide).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Regards
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 06-Feb-21 04:41, Francesca Palombini wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 Hi all,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Apologies for the delay getting this email out= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> As you might have seen, the minutes from IETF = 109 have been posted: h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/minutes-109-gendispatch-0= 0 If you have any corrections, please let me know.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Here comes my personal summary of the discussi= on on draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis so far. Please note that this = is my personal understanding, I haven't had the chance to get it approv= ed by my co-chair, but didn't want to delay any longer. I am looking fo= r answers to the questions below, as well as comments if you believe I miss= ed or mischaracterized anything.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ---
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Firstly, there was rough consensus in the room= that, as it stands now, the working group procedures in the IETF are not c= learly described. This ambiguity is reflected in RFC 7221. It is hard to fi= nd information about the practical ways of working in IETF wgs, which is a = problem especially for getting new people actively involved.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I understood from the discussion in the room t= hat there was rough consensus that we need to do something about it.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The authors of draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc= 7221bis have written an update to RFC 7221 (that would obsolete it) with th= e intent to clarify the existing information. If this document (7221bis) wa= s to move forward, I heard most voices supporting this document being publi= shed want it to move forward as informational. A couple of people have expr= essed the need for a BCP, but from my understanding this draft would not be= the start of such a BCP.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Objections to this document being published as= informational were raised, stating that too often informational RFCs are t= aken as rules. There was strong voices in the room in=C2=A0 both directions= about if any text would be helpful to clarify that this is a purely descri= ptive document, not to be taken as guidelines or rules.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I want to note that this is a much bigger conv= ersation than the draft that we are trying to dispatch, but we can't re= ally recommend one outcome for this particular document without considering= the bigger picture. As a result, my first recommendation would be to set u= p a mailing list to have a venue to continue this discussion on the content= of 7221bis - clarifying IETF ways of working.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Possible dispatching outcomes (in no particula= r order) that are, in my opinion, the most likely outcomes based on the dis= cussion are described below. I added some questions, which are of course co= nditional on the outcome.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> 1) Publish the draft as informational
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- work on the text i= n the newly created list, but also get feedback from wg chairs list and iet= f@ietf
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0QUESTION1: afaict this was not addressed during the meeting - does anybo= dy feel like a wg should be created for this? (as opposed to AD sponsored, = and advertised on the lists above)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- be careful that th= e document is clearly descriptive and does NOT provide guidance
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0QUESTION2: I want to re-iterate the question to those who objected to th= is outcome - knowing that there is already a note in the introduction about= it - is there any additional modifications that would make you comfortable= with this outcome?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- after publishing, = point to it from the website, training etc.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> 2) Do not publish this draft, but rather treat= the text like the Tao, publish it on the website (for ex ietf.org <http://ietf.org&= gt; "how we work").
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the text still nee= ds review. The newly created list could be used, plus updates could be made= on the wg-chairs and ietf@ietf lists.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- We would need to m= ake sure duplicated info is not happening (7221 vs website)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0* During the meeting the question came up if the IESG could mark RFC 722= 1 as historic (if we can do that for informational), possibly linking from = the datatracker to the website. We could follow the example of RFC 6722 for= the Tao, and obsolete RFC 7221 with such a document, while pointing to the= webpage.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0QUESTION3: To authors and those who preferred updating RFC 7221 with cla= rified text, would this be an acceptable alternative?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Additionally (and out of scope of our dispatch= ing discussion) I wanted to note that it was brought up that there might be= need to revise RFC 2418. This could be the BCP which was mentioned above.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ---
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Francesca
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/gendispatch
>

--00000000000017053405bab18c62-- From nobody Sat Feb 6 14:21:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96533A2C9B; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:21:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oAYsi_Iqo7hZ; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:21:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E4913A2C34; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3815D38992; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 17:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 9p154qHfunlP; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 17:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C729038984; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 17:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 716A9585; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 17:20:58 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch\@ietf.org" , "draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis\@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-chairs\@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-ads\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <8EF146BF-93BE-4066-B9B4-E5006F8AAF71@ericsson.com> References: <8EF146BF-93BE-4066-B9B4-E5006F8AAF71@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF 109 minutes + chair summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 22:21:03 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Francesca Palombini wrote: > Objections to this document being published as informational were > raised, stating that too often informational RFCs are taken as > rules. There was strong voices in the room in both directions about if > any text would be helpful to clarify that this is a purely descriptive > document, not to be taken as guidelines or rules. I want to say that multiple people during the meeting were surprised that t= he "2-week WG Adoption call" was not, in fact, a rule. That is, ignorance of 7221 is rampant, and new participants, including many chairs, are simply unaware that there are options. Further, Bron brought up the view that he looks for a specific rule to foll= ow *IN ORDER* that his actions are not easily subject to appeal. As such, I think that we need a strong clarification of what is a rule, and what is not in fact, a rule. I think that process RFCs are regularly ignored regardless of their status. As 7221bis tries to clarify what are rules and what are not, it's entirely okay if it it's view of what are rules are in fact, perceived as rules. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmAfFkoACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWgxQf6AwAxbfvaTkSGEFB1AC4r06wyoBwXWv2m3DkOzBQqH8jFwOTEilz/+Owo bnrjqoQJAUCqzjOrHyJM6soX8wuJdiG06M6hHY2DZdzgSZA9dEKqsxaE8kTrjidR IjaVMVnavLVwgofB08U1phwV7L5Th118ONmzzrz4sQ8z+S5o9ypAOgb5sI++7KZt UEj5qnstE80Ew5k/hQfa7bk9t3EGv9/jTVY8fUfx7GkjwXPL+ujCYCuMSfhK0rkH vUv5CcqmMuIS6LMeZ2bGqU0Otu40Y2vLM6RKdnLaq8HCMNcS0qQ5CckzTdvw7gF3 arfdHUj3ICFci79gPDIrT3qFki2C7Q== =fYTp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Feb 11 12:39:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553C43A1929 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:39:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9sVO1RyA8Z1a for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf33.google.com (mail-qv1-xf33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAFC93A1928 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:39:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf33.google.com with SMTP id q8so309147qvx.11 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:39:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=5G/7C+/P39ge5DmXfQMSb07HGlC2rIaKPGxcy67nfbs=; b=SCrULll+4MvUiuVMQKL1HfulRuH781ZpqRI8uCw/EyzKiWX3OsN+XO9ojeaTpnKtf1 k7JVetauAwuXeIiFgEW/RUYlU5HTiw1X+kEn2UQ1sVHeMZ1LYcrVClW70CuWi9iLGRZ+ ranEWZybgYyR1lxCRWOnqqPpYcinje4kZUH1w= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=5G/7C+/P39ge5DmXfQMSb07HGlC2rIaKPGxcy67nfbs=; b=SerhS0mfaRoI1yZ/v44k9Jf6S7Sw1PO36emdtbwX+HnJdDVcJQc3s9rTVrzxn8b+SK yMWzdK1LKEiP9RY+8sQywALErZdSAa5PaAp8GQSZHdajS2HSX+Zh0e5Lgus9pCqqHf0R lZ1BJI21Ae+Sl8EjysPs5YXyES9L3LVkMTWyMEDfTHTRyohNi6n4nL0lK7bmSWf6ZuSt REz+COEXobJJndv2177lmNDJM8s37UXem58VLlBwlhUk59R1JPSJb6YuPDRW6k9dfMX+ Em/q1Ai5idAdkwS//2ygKAbh0LwC8mCtK6d8LiNletsoonNz06Yt4mtZwi70t93b71xV Oz0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5320d3h1bSSEFFxU1dfWnEL+dU8qyGqX9gmVDUQNVEqekbBAKwGf NKNXc+iXMRcemkViDOla8s2QKUpZRA04rq0J X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/SgtvzryGKQR697kc9zAnZFigy/WLV/90x4UVXIo+DAAKL36wkmFzqQvoprCG+iV/NKjAcA== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4634:: with SMTP id x20mr9760382qvv.33.1613075988605; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.152] (pool-108-31-39-252.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.39.252]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j124sm4627939qkf.113.2021.02.11.12.39.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:39:47 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 15:39:47 -0500 To: GENDISPATCH List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 20:39:51 -0000 Hi!, Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. Cheers, spt ---------- Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) ---- The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents.=20 The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF.=20 Milestones: July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations=20= From nobody Thu Feb 11 13:57:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680A13A0C98 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:57:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E09GzyvxPh4c for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A5653A0C77 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id a25so9263467ljn.0 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:57:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EfZv2CEOo+MpJXl1v3RvJneBWA8fGRGkZQy897W/aag=; b=eISnOlu0SAx7tFTcaTFJPcjP94EGsQCY9kQZeZ0EXTyzmgasIJibS06S9vvV30sOGf G7IumgQMLGPaTeBhXa/+Px9Cuu88GfSlHvEjcUaCpt/lkqxTC6lyVqbArRK6IVxmWv+e Y79QBLZcIj8Zr9H447Gy5z5jGLe22Tu9gDqd3gmgt81MoHQDStyfEWWg/O1ShQp7FaYO 1WijHTbKJRT/kY8fd8OpWJ5xgG2Jxcr9oFW7eodxvW45ch59MC08yJ3CLvuY/lfaiEKx DuiTQgGtamRnkmqyZx7acqwv5Mrn9pcH0uENDv+qq02LkkJAO58lWVwbwOhGhZskOsz+ olfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EfZv2CEOo+MpJXl1v3RvJneBWA8fGRGkZQy897W/aag=; b=r6F3/L4VqB/otUmJlBhtbvasRwC5G8h475jFAjz0MECIx4vj+0iNeEwvKl0GYOxec0 fkN2PXzBOydPCcmVAanyzhaZ1NPO3YhUrD1Mc7hPYas6ymJVxZWFRxZlmcXayGZfln8i nXqvAp27DGcmS0Is9Kqmxe2ukl08z/+XoBx/ZpEOqJuOX62A1+TLmySDsoPOidLTPH1L e4f19vMKVO177y8DPdFXl4bHlA4IoYYgW6eDmrmPJSzHjwc5no8o/tRFXmz2/T/jCXUk qLh25kD7RN4oKr48ptvv5Puys4snHca/OLuhZWcRFgVVqoAE/MxnwRGLlWvJvPht01bk PD5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5317UccPXV5UHaozDnI0L8dlUOP7M6qNWkM4820cXnR90KSL/Ndm tWJcRyshPPG9i4ophrm/0baBx1NNr1fRT3nCHfdTdaAFEwq/vg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwiY0LTcliT2SM3o7mswwhUj5jhwKvg36FIScmBd+lK4xS8pcOyvxAb+NgqjA9eSBKbCs/6fP/9zwxrodW6PaI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9cd5:: with SMTP id g21mr6073759ljj.383.1613080644469; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:57:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:56:48 -0800 Message-ID: To: Sean Turner Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ced77905bb169a8d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:57:28 -0000 --000000000000ced77905bb169a8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM Sean Turner wrote: > Hi!, > > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG. > > Cheers, > spt > This looks like a great start. A few small comments below. Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality= , > relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, a= nd > manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC > publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, > consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most > effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely > accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there ha= s > been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the > technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9Cmast= er/slave=E2=80=9D > and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in technical documentation and= whether those and > other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF > participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF > community would benefit from informational recommendations about using > effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational > RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work > produced by the IETF. > I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC might contain. Perhaps: These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of specific terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives. -Ekr > Milestones: > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendation= s > I almost never say this, but it seems to me that this milestone isn't aggressive enough. Also, shouldn't we have a "publish" milestone? -Ekr --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000ced77905bb169a8d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM Sean= Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:=
Hi!,

Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG.
Cheers,
spt

This looks like a great start. A fe= w small comments below.


Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM)
----

The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, = relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and= manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the = RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, c= onsistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most = effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely acce= ssible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures.

In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has = been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the t= echnology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9Cmaster/= slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in technical docu= mentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. Wh= ile opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is genera= l agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recomm= endations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents= .
The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational R= FC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produ= ced by the IETF.

I think it might be h= elpful to scope out a little more what this RFC might contain. Perhaps:

These recommendations will consist of (1) general pri= nciples for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of s= pecific terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives.

=
-Ekr


Milestones:

July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations =

I almost never say this, but it seems = to me that this milestone isn't aggressive enough. Also, shouldn't = we have a "publish" milestone?

--000000000000ced77905bb169a8d-- From nobody Thu Feb 11 16:26:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CDF3A0EC7 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:26:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qhUFwXiY7FFu for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E26353A0EC4 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOE0AY2G3VAA6@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:25:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOE00NEA3TPMM@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:25:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:25:54 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_G43Lh19MhLjgtJ6yHDpfvg)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210211] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:26:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_G43Lh19MhLjgtJ6yHDpfvg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT On 2/11/21 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM Sean Turner > wrote: > > Hi!, > > Here is some proposed charter text to address the > terminology-related WG. > > Cheers, > spt > > > This looks like a great start. A few small comments below. > > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high > quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way > people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, > "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce > documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably > uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they > use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to > readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, > there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards > organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of > certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) > in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have > effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF > participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the > IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations > about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an > Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use > in technical work produced by the IETF. > > > I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC > might contain. Perhaps: > > These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for > judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of specific > terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives.   I agree with (1), in fact I would like to see some principles for what defines "inclusive" and "exclusive". Right now it seems like how one defines pornography, i.e. "I know it when I see it". The problem with that is that we end up with some self-appointed New Moral Majority defining for everyone what "exclusive" or "inclusive" is, and I'm sorry but hell no. I'd rather add some new fangled version of the Parental Advisory Notice that the previous group of morality busybodies put on albums back in the 80s and 90s into the boilerplate of RFCs and I-Ds.   As far as (2) is concerned, you only call out for a list of terms to avoid and their replacement terms, which seems to play to the conspiracy that this whole thing is about policing speech-- "you can't say that." Is "inclusive" merely the alternative to the bad word that has been defined as "exclusive" or are there some words that would make RFCs be more clear, precise, and widely accessible that don't have a naughty synonym?   regards,   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_G43Lh19MhLjgtJ6yHDpfvg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

On 2/11/21 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
Hi!,

Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG.

Cheers,
spt

This looks like a great start. A few small comments below.


Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM)
----

The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures.

In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents.
The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF.

I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC might contain. Perhaps:

These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of specific terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives.

  I agree with (1), in fact I would like to see some principles for what defines "inclusive"
and "exclusive". Right now it seems like how one defines pornography, i.e. "I know it when
I see it". The problem with that is that we end up with some self-appointed New Moral Majority
defining for everyone what "exclusive" or "inclusive" is, and I'm sorry but hell no. I'd
rather add some new fangled version of the Parental Advisory Notice that the previous group
of morality busybodies put on albums back in the 80s and 90s into the boilerplate of RFCs
and I-Ds.

  As far as (2) is concerned, you only call out for a list of terms to avoid and their
replacement terms, which seems to play to the conspiracy that this whole thing is about
policing speech-- "you can't say that." Is "inclusive" merely the alternative to the bad
word that has been defined as "exclusive" or are there some words that would make RFCs be
more clear, precise, and widely accessible that don't have a naughty synonym?

  regards,

  Dan.
 
-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_G43Lh19MhLjgtJ6yHDpfvg)-- From nobody Thu Feb 11 16:49:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D743A0F49 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:49:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7UpnBFuj5zNj for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F22713A0F48 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE949BE79; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:58 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fSbw2jjTKck2; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 85F0EBE77; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:54 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1613090934; bh=EisWWxE7LWim8Gjb5JENplCKwIrDL09DbaZ2qCj18uA=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=F86XKUzk4UFxRS8pipfqRjC45s6N773t1vtZ0QiEJRuOL+MmqR580lUF2D4zIeMUP 8stugrGB35z2u4bFqzXgadCryaPp7uzT8vM9HGLarHrQwfvRVC6TRJj//UqopxLO6i GdbJfnCHjASSNleR3wIMST5OaS32Wh8GuUjwfTtE= To: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <3e265d14-9993-8922-3cc6-855609f61829@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:53 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="l2FmwQBYHDbKPfjvqVV0SkNNHdGZ2nhWG" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:49:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --l2FmwQBYHDbKPfjvqVV0SkNNHdGZ2nhWG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ynfETcd8W0XbPPRiPpATAK2ZQ414Te0ru"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <3e265d14-9993-8922-3cc6-855609f61829@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG References: In-Reply-To: --ynfETcd8W0XbPPRiPpATAK2ZQ414Te0ru Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6776D05D4FCBCA19D1EF08B9" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6776D05D4FCBCA19D1EF08B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dan, (Top quoting as this is just a question, but I know you care about this and have also been active in IEEE...) Via mail to new-work/secdir today, I see that IEEE 802 (and I've no idea if people are co-ordinating or not) seem to be starting a fairly similar acctivity. [1] My question is just: do you think the same about IEEE's efforts, or is there any interesting difference? Ta, S. [1] https://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2021/dr-PAR-0221-v01.pdf On 12/02/2021 00:25, Dan Harkins wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 2/11/21 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM Sean Turner > > wrote: >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi!, >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Here is some proposed charter text to address the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 terminology-related WG. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cheers, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 spt >> >> >> This looks like a great start. A few small comments below. >> >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ---- >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is t= o produce high >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 quality, relevant technical documents that influenc= e the way >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC= 7322 explains, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process i= s to produce >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and= reasonably >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effecti= ve when they >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely = accessible to >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In the years leading up to the chartering of this w= orking group, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 there has been discussion in the IETF, in other sta= ndards >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 organizations, and in the technology industry about= the use of >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 certain terms (such as =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D= and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in technical documentation and whether those and ot= her terms have >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among I= ETF >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 participants about this topic, there is general agr= eement that the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IETF community would benefit from informational rec= ommendations >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 about using effective and inclusive terminology in = IETF documents. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The TERM working group is therefore chartered to pr= oduce an >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Informational RFC containing recommendations on ter= minology to use >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in technical work produced by the IETF. >> >> >> I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC=20 >> might contain. Perhaps: >> >> These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for=20 >> judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of specific= =20 >> terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives. >=20 > =C2=A0 I agree with (1), in fact I would like to see some principles f= or=20 > what defines "inclusive" > and "exclusive". Right now it seems like how one defines pornography,=20 > i.e. "I know it when > I see it". The problem with that is that we end up with some=20 > self-appointed New Moral Majority > defining for everyone what "exclusive" or "inclusive" is, and I'm sorry= =20 > but hell no. I'd > rather add some new fangled version of the Parental Advisory Notice tha= t=20 > the previous group > of morality busybodies put on albums back in the 80s and 90s into the=20 > boilerplate of RFCs > and I-Ds. >=20 > =C2=A0 As far as (2) is concerned, you only call out for a list of ter= ms to=20 > avoid and their > replacement terms, which seems to play to the conspiracy that this whol= e=20 > thing is about > policing speech-- "you can't say that." Is "inclusive" merely the=20 > alternative to the bad > word that has been defined as "exclusive" or are there some words that = > would make RFCs be > more clear, precise, and widely accessible that don't have a naughty=20 > synonym? >=20 > =C2=A0 regards, >=20 > =C2=A0 Dan. >=20 >=20 --------------6776D05D4FCBCA19D1EF08B9 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 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charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT   Howdy Stephen, On 2/11/21 4:48 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi Dan, > > (Top quoting as this is just a question, but I know you care > about this and have also been active in IEEE...) > > Via mail to new-work/secdir today, I see that IEEE 802 (and > I've no idea if people are co-ordinating or not) seem to be > starting a fairly similar acctivity. [1]   I was not aware of this. Thanks for pointing it out. > My question is just: do you think the same about IEEE's > efforts, or is there any interesting difference?   Yes, I would like to see IEEE 802.1 define "non-inclusive" and "insensitive" before they go about requiring the replacement of terms. I will have to see about insisting on that.   There was a back channel effort by an IESG member to get IEEE 802.11 to change the term "master key" in their standard and I put the kibosh on it because that is just blind substitution of words without thinking. A "master key" is a term of art that derives from locksmithing. There is nothing insensitive about that term and it defies reason to say that some class of people have been excluded from locksmithing, and by inference will be excluded from wi-fi, because this term was used.   You seem to think I'm against these efforts. I'm not against making our documents more clear, more precise, and more accessible. I'm against blind word substitution and I'm against banning of certain words. And I think it is quite galling that affluent, credentialed, white people are at the forefront of this effort to define how groups of people who are not white, affluent, and credentialed behave when they read common terms of art. That's patronizing and it's offensive. So I'm against patronizing and offensive behavior, even if it's done with the best of intentions, but not necessarily against cleaning up our documents.   regards,   Dan. > Ta, > S. > > [1] https://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2021/dr-PAR-0221-v01.pdf > > On 12/02/2021 00:25, Dan Harkins wrote: >> >> >> On 2/11/21 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM Sean Turner >> > wrote: >>> >>>     Hi!, >>> >>>     Here is some proposed charter text to address the >>>     terminology-related WG. >>> >>>     Cheers, >>>     spt >>> >>> >>> This looks like a great start. A few small comments below. >>> >>> >>>     Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >>>     ---- >>> >>>     The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high >>>     quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way >>>     people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, >>>     "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce >>>     documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably >>>     uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they >>>     use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to >>>     readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >>> >>>     In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, >>>     there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards >>>     organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of >>>     certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) >>>     in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have >>>     effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF >>>     participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the >>>     IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations >>>     about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. >>>     The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an >>>     Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use >>>     in technical work produced by the IETF. >>> >>> >>> I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC >>> might contain. Perhaps: >>> >>> These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for >>> judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of >>> specific terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives. >> >>    I agree with (1), in fact I would like to see some principles for >> what defines "inclusive" >> and "exclusive". Right now it seems like how one defines pornography, >> i.e. "I know it when >> I see it". The problem with that is that we end up with some >> self-appointed New Moral Majority >> defining for everyone what "exclusive" or "inclusive" is, and I'm >> sorry but hell no. I'd >> rather add some new fangled version of the Parental Advisory Notice >> that the previous group >> of morality busybodies put on albums back in the 80s and 90s into the >> boilerplate of RFCs >> and I-Ds. >> >>    As far as (2) is concerned, you only call out for a list of terms >> to avoid and their >> replacement terms, which seems to play to the conspiracy that this >> whole thing is about >> policing speech-- "you can't say that." Is "inclusive" merely the >> alternative to the bad >> word that has been defined as "exclusive" or are there some words >> that would make RFCs be >> more clear, precise, and widely accessible that don't have a naughty >> synonym? >> >>    regards, >> >>    Dan. >> >> > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_DKJFRDqVhcFjCthS2N5X0w) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
  Howdy Stephen,
On 2/11/21 4:48 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:

Hi Dan,

(Top quoting as this is just a question, but I know you care
about this and have also been active in IEEE...)

Via mail to new-work/secdir today, I see that IEEE 802 (and
I've no idea if people are co-ordinating or not) seem to be
starting a fairly similar acctivity. [1]
 
  I was not aware of this. Thanks for pointing it out.
My question is just: do you think the same about IEEE's
efforts, or is there any interesting difference?

  Yes, I would like to see IEEE 802.1 define "non-inclusive" and "insensitive"
before they go about requiring the replacement of terms. I will have to see
about insisting on that.

  There was a back channel effort by an IESG member to get IEEE 802.11 to
change the term "master key" in their standard and I put the kibosh on it
because that is just blind substitution of words without thinking. A "master
key" is a term of art that derives from locksmithing. There is nothing
insensitive about that term and it defies reason to say that some class of
people have been excluded from locksmithing, and by inference will be excluded
from wi-fi, because this term was used.

  You seem to think I'm against these efforts. I'm not against making our
documents more clear, more precise, and more accessible. I'm against blind
word substitution and I'm against banning of certain words. And I think it
is quite galling that affluent, credentialed, white people are at the
forefront of this effort to define how groups of people who are not white,
affluent, and credentialed behave when they read common terms of art.
That's patronizing and it's offensive. So I'm against patronizing and
offensive behavior, even if it's done with the best of intentions, but
not necessarily against cleaning up our documents.

  regards,

  Dan.
 
Ta,
S.

[1] https://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2021/dr-PAR-0221-v01.pdf

On 12/02/2021 00:25, Dan Harkins wrote:


On 2/11/21 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com <mailto:sean@sn3rd.com>> wrote:

    Hi!,

    Here is some proposed charter text to address the
    terminology-related WG.

    Cheers,
    spt


This looks like a great start. A few small comments below.


    Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM)
    ----

    The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high
    quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way
    people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains,
    "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce
    documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably
    uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they
    use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to
    readers from varying backgrounds and cultures.

    In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group,
    there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards
    organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of
    certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”)
    in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have
    effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF
    participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the
    IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations
    about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents.
    The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an
    Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use
    in technical work produced by the IETF.


I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC might contain. Perhaps:

These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of specific terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives.

   I agree with (1), in fact I would like to see some principles for what defines "inclusive"
and "exclusive". Right now it seems like how one defines pornography, i.e. "I know it when
I see it". The problem with that is that we end up with some self-appointed New Moral Majority
defining for everyone what "exclusive" or "inclusive" is, and I'm sorry but hell no. I'd
rather add some new fangled version of the Parental Advisory Notice that the previous group
of morality busybodies put on albums back in the 80s and 90s into the boilerplate of RFCs
and I-Ds.

   As far as (2) is concerned, you only call out for a list of terms to avoid and their
replacement terms, which seems to play to the conspiracy that this whole thing is about
policing speech-- "you can't say that." Is "inclusive" merely the alternative to the bad
word that has been defined as "exclusive" or are there some words that would make RFCs be
more clear, precise, and widely accessible that don't have a naughty synonym?

   regards,

   Dan. 




-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_DKJFRDqVhcFjCthS2N5X0w)-- From nobody Thu Feb 11 17:43:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867B73A1045 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:43:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=gHEGBR9S; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=YUxUeP/U Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iceQ9clouvMt for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02A3D3A1047 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E7E5C00CA for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 20:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 11 Feb 2021 20:43:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=N2Z0DNf X67t+FaX23KKShxqqCzJIs11WYUPBdeamFYE=; b=gHEGBR9SNIRQBaiiCmoqgO6 iX6265qKSicoaLZxbwbtZLBsaMifm+OLccvM6kkwEw4piDw4wNPL6BADHkjNqt+4 E8ss+vmVjX3j11OvBN24/JzL9SY35FOxwtJ+VkCRjhdsCMGr5as5ldGxnvtKWNJy lbirD9sCHj+7/cFgwPDpV9XFFD985xCWaNLegQn3dhIDjk7VXnI+7MP+FjvF38uZ NGYhVlArPDa3WAuCGvmmsto47ZaP21almcXIDw2Ufqlp03nQtdbpAsEVqr1asJbp UIJWDQ4bepQjoH4Sl1Y/uI8bcvfu39h778f85pb+235e0Aw6v8Yzn67OoIH+iMw= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=N2Z0DN fX67t+FaX23KKShxqqCzJIs11WYUPBdeamFYE=; b=YUxUeP/Ul/WLneTbcHNbVq VTmSvjr4x8taLmXGvwnK1oiPOtPkYKMTADP2eLB4kYJ6AYI0mLwcO/fX0MzjIMS3 CwQRJmfjyWZULVj5wNWtiVIYKbuukdbO6TfEmNC4BCa6/BRqPMAbcOF1/g/01kZf 4ZdHVw0VZ05vkzpzQOojLAhaccKcSL/1eKa9Ru3Ktw0xar3oU5sw60TWDwhVqWj6 xfQY1C6j3DPTmnflaXqhLhzzOKnaDzL0npSCFspAgqGrqd19jSPSQ2jME0KwOscX FRQlI8PQnFU+ACJCkw2CUEv2JEnWMpEzVJT7ueSB9LIa3+iADOrL+fRsiCaoevrg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledriedtgdeflecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehf rghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnheptdehteegfeevte duffevteehfffghefhvdevkeeuhfehueetudehgfegieekjeetnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmhgrih hlthgvrghmrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2FFD3360062; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 20:43:21 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-141-gf094924a34-fm-20210210.001-gf094924a Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <566a9702-5ce9-448d-93b0-05a787978adc@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:43:00 +1100 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=195becab557f429aa9089c793409ef9d Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 01:43:25 -0000 --195becab557f429aa9089c793409ef9d Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote: > Hi!, >=20 > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >=20 Thanks, this looks really good. I gave some feedback on an earlier vers= ion of this, and it looks like every edit has improved it. > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qual= ity, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, = use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal o= f the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable,= clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts ar= e most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and w= idely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. This is fantastic. It's grounded in the underlying purpose of the IETF,= and it's clear about why this work is being undertaken. > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there= has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80= =9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in t= echnical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on= inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this top= ic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit fro= m informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive term= inology in IETF documents.=20 I hadn't suggested naming specific terms, but seeing them there I think = that having the examples improves this charter, because specific cases a= re always more useful than generic, all encompassing phrases ("certain t= erms") in isolation. > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informatio= nal RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical wo= rk produced by the IETF.=20 I was holding out for ETERM (not to be confused with the enlightenment t= erminal manager) :p Cheers, Bron. -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --195becab557f429aa9089c793409ef9d Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote:
Hi!,

Here is some proposed charter text to add= ress the terminology-related WG.


<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">Thanks, this looks really good.  I= gave some feedback on an earlier version of this, and it looks like eve= ry edit has improved it.

=
The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to prod= uce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way pe= ople design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ul= timate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that = are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Inter= net-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, p= recise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cu= ltures.

This is fantastic.  It's ground= ed in the underlying purpose of the IETF, and it's clear about why this = work is being undertaken.
In the years leading up to the chartering of this workin= g group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organ= izations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms = (such as =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist= =E2=80=9D) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms = have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants= about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community wo= uld benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and= inclusive terminology in IETF documents. 

I hadn't suggested naming specific terms, but seeing them there I th= ink that having the examples improves this charter, because specific cas= es are always more useful than generic, all encompassing phrases ("certa= in terms") in isolation.

=
The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce = an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in= technical work produced by the IETF. 

= I was holding out for ETERM (not to be confused with the enlightenment t= erminal manager) :p

Cheers,

Bron.

--
  Bron G= ondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  = brong@fastmailteam.com


--195becab557f429aa9089c793409ef9d-- From nobody Thu Feb 11 18:04:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F053A106D for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:04:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J6Mjd3ieUJGq for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6505A3A0EAD for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C519BEE9; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 02:04:05 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a2q0TdHy_3Ib; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 02:04:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5E798BEE5; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 02:04:02 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1613095442; bh=CK3UvkuDMj2jzrrbUasGrGow5niaqK2UiVkH+zyndpY=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=QHpAz6AygL7xLYv0nXDayAW7RgIBECf7d2psVZEg7Go4/Yrv6MiBXU0Q4l78/jLKW obb10/leLjls0sWLaUeqn9IOTLnm3I7JyfRQhpKiYc2yCJiCTUPuGbs+1Gzvhf5oTv M4PVLqiF7Ei9XmvBEgOXe58YJZyp89MYeu4UJmr8= To: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3e265d14-9993-8922-3cc6-855609f61829@cs.tcd.ie> <41eb17bd-8c51-9b89-7e0b-6686e9e1a90e@lounge.org> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <822a1f67-9c10-d043-74dd-5b966e00b3b7@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 02:04:01 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <41eb17bd-8c51-9b89-7e0b-6686e9e1a90e@lounge.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hFOHuKkTO4UxXKbw4lGPH5Bndg8RAhFrj" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 02:04:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --hFOHuKkTO4UxXKbw4lGPH5Bndg8RAhFrj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="KRww6DBBW33iG5MKo4ZyNlfFlluZ7ee6D"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <822a1f67-9c10-d043-74dd-5b966e00b3b7@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG References: <3e265d14-9993-8922-3cc6-855609f61829@cs.tcd.ie> <41eb17bd-8c51-9b89-7e0b-6686e9e1a90e@lounge.org> In-Reply-To: <41eb17bd-8c51-9b89-7e0b-6686e9e1a90e@lounge.org> --KRww6DBBW33iG5MKo4ZyNlfFlluZ7ee6D Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------43551CB218A233353844A424" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------43551CB218A233353844A424 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 12/02/2021 01:24, Dan Harkins wrote: >=20 > =C2=A0 Howdy Stephen, >=20 > On 2/11/21 4:48 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hi Dan, >> >> (Top quoting as this is just a question, but I know you care >> about this and have also been active in IEEE...) >> >> Via mail to new-work/secdir today, I see that IEEE 802 (and >> I've no idea if people are co-ordinating or not) seem to be >> starting a fairly similar acctivity. [1] >=20 > =C2=A0 I was not aware of this.=20 Me neither. Hence asking:-) > Thanks for pointing it out > >> My question is just: do you think the same about IEEE's >> efforts, or is there any interesting difference? >=20 > =C2=A0 Yes, I would like to see IEEE 802.1 define "non-inclusive" and = > "insensitive" > before they go about requiring the replacement of terms.=20 Ack, thanks. > I will have to see > about insisting on that. >=20 > =C2=A0 There was a back channel effort by an IESG member to get IEEE 8= 02.11 to > change the term "master key" in their standard and I put the kibosh on = it > because that is just blind substitution of words without thinking. A=20 > "master > key" is a term of art that derives from locksmithing. There is nothing > insensitive about that term and it defies reason to say that some class= of > people have been excluded from locksmithing, and by inference will be=20 > excluded > from wi-fi, because this term was used. >=20 > =C2=A0 You seem to think I'm against these efforts.=20 Well, I wasn't counting you as an enthusiast:-) As it happens I think being skeptical is entirely fine, whilst I personally think it's probably ok for us to do this. I'm unsure if looking for definitions is a good way to try constrain this or not. I suspect it's not, and that general guidance and a few example improvements might be better. > I'm not against making our > documents more clear, more precise, and more accessible.=20 Yep. I also think there are pretty clear improvements we can make. I guess s/blacklist/blocklist/g is the clearest in most cases I can think of, but there'll for sure be some cases that are tricky. I think that's ok if the guidance is well given. > I'm against blind > word substitution and I'm against banning of certain words.=20 I'm also against "banning." That's based on my background when as a youth I grew up in an environment where censorship, more of discussion topics than specific words, was common. So I'd hate to see us end up with a blocklist of bad strings. But I don't think that's where this is headed. Cheers, S. > And I think it > is quite galling that affluent, credentialed, white people are at the > forefront of this effort to define how groups of people who are not whi= te, > affluent, and credentialed behave when they read common terms of art. > That's patronizing and it's offensive. So I'm against patronizing and > offensive behavior, even if it's done with the best of intentions, but > not necessarily against cleaning up our documents. >=20 > =C2=A0 regards, >=20 > =C2=A0 Dan. >=20 >> Ta, >> S. >> >> [1] https://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2021/dr-PAR-0221-v01.pd= f >> >> On 12/02/2021 00:25, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 2/11/21 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM Sean Turner >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi!, >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Here is some proposed charter text to address the= >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 terminology-related WG. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cheers, >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 spt >>>> >>>> >>>> This looks like a great start. A few small comments below. >>>> >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ---- >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is= to produce high >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 quality, relevant technical documents that influe= nce the way >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 people design, use, and manage the Internet. As R= FC 7322 explains, >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process= is to produce >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 documents that are readable, clear, consistent, a= nd reasonably >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effec= tive when they >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 use terminology that is clear, precise, and widel= y accessible to >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In the years leading up to the chartering of this= working group, >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 there has been discussion in the IETF, in other s= tandards >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 organizations, and in the technology industry abo= ut the use of >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 certain terms (such as =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80= =9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in technical documentation and whether those and = other terms have >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among= IETF >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 participants about this topic, there is general a= greement that the >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IETF community would benefit from informational r= ecommendations >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 about using effective and inclusive terminology i= n IETF documents. >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The TERM working group is therefore chartered to = produce an >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Informational RFC containing recommendations on t= erminology to use >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in technical work produced by the IETF. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC= =20 >>>> might contain. Perhaps: >>>> >>>> These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for=20 >>>> judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of=20 >>>> specific terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives. >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 I agree with (1), in fact I would like to see some princ= iples for=20 >>> what defines "inclusive" >>> and "exclusive". Right now it seems like how one defines pornography,= =20 >>> i.e. "I know it when >>> I see it". The problem with that is that we end up with some=20 >>> self-appointed New Moral Majority >>> defining for everyone what "exclusive" or "inclusive" is, and I'm=20 >>> sorry but hell no. I'd >>> rather add some new fangled version of the Parental Advisory Notice=20 >>> that the previous group >>> of morality busybodies put on albums back in the 80s and 90s into the= =20 >>> boilerplate of RFCs >>> and I-Ds. >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 As far as (2) is concerned, you only call out for a list= of terms=20 >>> to avoid and their >>> replacement terms, which seems to play to the conspiracy that this=20 >>> whole thing is about >>> policing speech-- "you can't say that." Is "inclusive" merely the=20 >>> alternative to the bad >>> word that has been defined as "exclusive" or are there some words=20 >>> that would make RFCs be >>> more clear, precise, and widely accessible that don't have a naughty = >>> synonym? >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 regards, >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Dan. >>> >>> >> >=20 >=20 --------------43551CB218A233353844A424 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 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(1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4RVleTCpgmkq for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B0703A1432 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b862:7bcb:1e04:d495] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b862:7bcb:1e04:d495]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B6EDB6002D0; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:48:28 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1613119708; bh=IEQJQdJlsdqNs9/XBALN5vJ3ymqOjsSnacLzYhcK72o=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=BxoYnfCZ0wCiz4zooJI6DtulZzZPzNax0FtN/LNPIcB3mYKV1TMRB0GyojGPPPQnZ NK9aeCO04JIqv/wtPbHoIu83k5rxUU/QeYODRXknMznr96VpCPtc3PFgBQQocXKm7S MxKRKTnUskEf3KdsayX1U/GuLxt9ci5cp3LnnwKs= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <0DF991CD-127B-4257-8FB8-1E24BFC141FE@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_11827CB0-2919-4404-9A6D-A1D92A478259"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:48:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3e265d14-9993-8922-3cc6-855609f61829@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Stephen Farrell References: <3e265d14-9993-8922-3cc6-855609f61829@cs.tcd.ie> X-MailScanner-ID: B6EDB6002D0.A35ED X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 08:48:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_11827CB0-2919-4404-9A6D-A1D92A478259 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-2-12, at 2:48, Stephen Farrell = wrote: > Via mail to new-work/secdir today, I see that IEEE 802 (and > I've no idea if people are co-ordinating or not) seem to be > starting a fairly similar acctivity. [1] ... > [1] = https://www.ieee802.org/1/files/public/docs2021/dr-PAR-0221-v01.pdf FYI, there is also a recent LS from 3GPP informing us of a similar = activity over there: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1716/ Note that in that LS, 3GPP is asking the IEEE if they are considering = changing their terminology, which 3GPP is citing. In https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1717/, the IEEE responds to 3GPP = and informs them of an ongoing (and apparently longer-term) effort to = revise terminology. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_11827CB0-2919-4404-9A6D-A1D92A478259 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmAmQNwACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdgfhAAqYOF352XDj7akgZNx1AiUrh0uTsXLYbXmykL+IF5aW8vp6e4mULRXJSt d4/X2NUZHiUeiQzJFPROfbvkkgRZZqGrxCydFE/obloV1HvM0lVecVoLi1xu2DWb Fa3o8MLp/pOTKkw5EZ7W+LWQqMKDNwIS1d57y4ZKLW5VEHJHmkBm2xNQ11F4d+5u ccvT80O9rK5V5WpaH/qyAFaOF0mbpE9F7lDnqYn6NcdXnLjv+ha84r17cKMmgjZU GEU5GaOM4RjTNuWlz2ZZ7HjJ0gMgybeN+upVRc9i2YSkKksApQB+NaFbV+QA6H4U 9Bp9EV3M6ldVYNwlhOEsHqPNZXkEHNOsYTkROxh3ZP5J0RIQAr9MApJgcFu5d10T tddY5Cofn3NLBSQjD/RAPjh8upLOay3j6C6EMXfSJM/W54nnlWKS0f7DX6YuZulg ni7ktRIkV2GRZx8YZvfJdRx1moFet0FDKsO4Ys8T0RO5HKtD4tp0oJH3AxF1CfUd 9CNx4PcAaas+Sb2PgjoEH4ZeAL7gwsIb1gr/SzN5p6sAZPccFKsSaJHUEMUC3Ssu +Hmt/xQV5GOXB461jiRanrEVIHT+cb5c+gsMqlb+wjPfEFNNAzJXuZKrboUI9CHc q59gJi1JCiH75ib68nsjC/0V9Qw/4eArgmibMYP+JMMStd3TEzY= =Cty5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_11827CB0-2919-4404-9A6D-A1D92A478259-- From nobody Fri Feb 12 01:37:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C841A3A14AF for ; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 09:37:58 -0000 > Il 12/02/2021 03:04 Stephen Farrell ha scritto: > > I'm unsure if looking for definitions is a good way to try > constrain this or not. I suspect it's not, and that general > guidance and a few example improvements might be better. Agreed. > I'm also against "banning." That's based on my background > when as a youth I grew up in an environment where censorship, > more of discussion topics than specific words, was common. > So I'd hate to see us end up with a blocklist of bad strings. > But I don't think that's where this is headed. I think that it would be clearer to state this (the fact that producing a list of banned terms is not in scope) in the charter - as long as there is already agreement, of course. If not, part of the scope should be about deciding between the "hard" approach (these words are banned and no document will be allowed to use them) and the "soft" approach (just suggestions to the authors, perhaps with some kind of recourse mechanism for people that feel offended). However, what I really care about is that any effort to improve language inclusiveness is actually inclusive. Whenever this discussion comes up, it focuses regularly just on a handful of terms that are deemed offensive to one specific ethnicity in one specific country. While of course this is not the intention, this often feels exclusive to people from other countries and other ethnicities; this became apparent during some past discussions on the main IETF list. I would specify in the charter that the approach needs to be global and systematic, suggesting to authors that they should consider words that can be offensive to any social group from any part of the world, while at the same time acknowledging that no author can be aware of all the possible negative implications of every word they use, which in turn also change over time, and so this will necessarily be an effort made of repeated cycles and long term convergence; no bad intentions or indifference to the problem should ever be assumed in authors unless there is clear evidence in that direction. This is also why I would prefer that the charter did not include any specific terms, not even as examples. From one side, we all know what we are talking about, and from the other, any set of examples may sound exclusionary to someone. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Fri Feb 12 05:08:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B20463A1645 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:08:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BlZ7Cbc6fG2j for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 030B13A1644 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:08:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 11CD8bOv068704; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:08:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ietf@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from ietf@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 11CD8aCg068703; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ietf) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202102121308.11CD8aCg068703@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: To: Sean Turner Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:08:36 -0800 (PST) CC: GENDISPATCH List X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:08:43 -0000 Hello, I am glad to see this text and that this work is headed towards WG formation. We should focus here in GENDISP on the text of this charter, and NOT on the work that shall need to be done by the WG, which some of the other comments so far seem to be going off into. One comment inline below. Regards, Rod Grimes > Hi!, > > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG. > > Cheers, > spt > > ---------- > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as ?master/slave? and ?blacklist/whitelist?) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. Though examples are generally good this example could itself also be considered a sample of what we do not want in our documents and if we can I feel it would be better if we could remove it. I am confident the WG members would be aware of what some of the "certain terms" are. > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF. > > Milestones: > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Fri Feb 12 05:40:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F05C3A167F for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:40:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lYMu3b0k839w for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0434A3A167E for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:40:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id w19so8204982qki.13 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:40:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:content-language:to :references:from:subject:in-reply-to; bh=m8kSa79RTFoZ2ia2GuHESymmQe1wRYM3PjZogn1O5sY=; b=J68JJJWKFfpNiGNEBUbQ85AT1nZH2FuPI4Tq+GvfjNulafFu9B15UepyRVRq0ak+KA 2e23/sAuI28J/8QrZfc3f+8pEEtdIYgeZ1O5OeJzB78YPAGE5eHtnMqGxG5SStFhvVKd C9dQZt+F7IW9CqNVypAUByjryDhBNPym2cvz8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent :content-language:to:references:from:subject:in-reply-to; bh=m8kSa79RTFoZ2ia2GuHESymmQe1wRYM3PjZogn1O5sY=; b=iNAQdfQoiJYClDrIL3yA18cnGGHxayylanSsFsVzI7PVTsbOH4Y+N3SaYNFvCWnCXC u0uiNYhg6ETsm1KrhgmG3eGRB4lRmVd5jm/thDRstamb2BBdBRM3qHG/dGjc3tzhSf9q iVn1e0XH5279LaVLfvpt6rlobtKAc4b3okkUJ9JboLIhXS+ID8sim8FsZTxCse7Bfthw XyqPgFt9B/dyHI0RAx0IjA+YsNcNKhoYcX5OhKZPMhQR2FHEdTIxLtWKFqHlXEkYBOf3 pW35g+JoxdmRz7dQz374p4u05mmF8ZamiqVf0Ufg1DnIbnTbs69lOl9xHcGEcMBwbHgt iiQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530FK8v/1hhcLC0fKeuj3EoHsLaRJfYGuPBmQ37ZbIwUxYpMI6+T cCJr9pdpsyaabvAXmQCUWGZhpzV4bBLHI6bJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyLcg8p9K8VxiitEPaufB/y5HwRcW7Z+kTJ5dEDOJLaV4cGzT/kcSpzaRlLDPbZqfwCgpgAPQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:4749:: with SMTP id u70mr2543851qka.454.1613137229204; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local ([2601:5c2:3:7970:8190:4b0a:faf2:c2fe]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id j13sm5999096qkk.118.2021.02.12.05.40.28 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Feb 2021 05:40:28 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------SA0n0dacaVdk3VORUW0Ffuuo" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 08:40:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:86.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/86.0 Content-Language: en-US To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <566a9702-5ce9-448d-93b0-05a787978adc@beta.fastmail.com> From: Mallory Knodel In-Reply-To: <566a9702-5ce9-448d-93b0-05a787978adc@beta.fastmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:40:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------SA0n0dacaVdk3VORUW0Ffuuo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A big thank you to everyone who has worked on this! More: On 2/11/21 8:43 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote: > >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, >> there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards >> organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of >> certain terms (such as “master/slave” and >> “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether >> those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions >> vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general >> agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational >> recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in >> IETF documents. > > I hadn't suggested naming specific terms, but seeing them there I > think that having the examples improves this charter, because specific > cases are always more useful than generic, all encompassing phrases > ("certain terms") in isolation. > It risks meaninglessness to be totally generic and fully open to any and all interpretations of the words "inclusive" and "exclusive" as others (Dan, Vitorrio) have said. I think we should use the former for the group name-- Inclusive Terminology in IETF Documents. And I think that we should put in the charter that we will start with the specific issues related to race, as it is now. If you'd like a rundown of why that's important, please watch this from the W3C on essentially the very same approach: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Sep/0020.html BTW the W3C also put out a recent decision, too, on the same: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2021JanMar/0017.html -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --------------SA0n0dacaVdk3VORUW0Ffuuo Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A big thank you to everyone who has worked on this! More:

On 2/11/21 8:43 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote:

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote:

In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. 

I hadn't suggested naming specific terms, but seeing them there I think that having the examples improves this charter, because specific cases are always more useful than generic, all encompassing phrases ("certain terms") in isolation.

It risks meaninglessness to be totally generic and fully open to any and all interpretations of the words "inclusive" and "exclusive" as others (Dan, Vitorrio) have said.

I think we should use the former for the group name-- Inclusive Terminology in IETF Documents.

And I think that we should put in the charter that we will start with the specific issues related to race, as it is now. If you'd like a rundown of why that's important, please watch this from the W3C on essentially the very same approach: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Sep/0020.html

BTW the W3C also put out a recent decision, too, on the same: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2021JanMar/0017.html

-Mallory

-- 
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
--------------SA0n0dacaVdk3VORUW0Ffuuo-- From nobody Fri Feb 12 11:51:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E253A0D42 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:51:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4iGTj9_ZcXMs for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:50:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C2683A0D40 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:50:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id nm1so216135pjb.3 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:50:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mx1ppByrz3nEEEmTk1JirDW6Z3EEmS0btzVHTAYmJjw=; b=fU+ll6ijssIl25Rot4qnq8DkXkMr9+ubM+8MzPT8J+eqwcOltwhZHSgKxjBV3gISGo Q3jcyv4UOxFr1EWPMcWbUAoH0idgs2or3jFs9r6Ob+fAoeKKMWFbkLH1bn85ykpeH4IM IGzVJjIX4SBu27aGcCBUyyaMbOvWx5aJ88AbL5Ttsfuk/ZY0mtGkCq6aLFLNpKmI/ZjR 5obnTWd7fxmGknuO6mdHwwciaUa7b5T+oS5tTrCcb8S2U5pM/lL426lPqA/HA3kiWMcZ nVD9uOrXhMDrAXNjg1ihBG5TPuR2vahI0ggtvDvc6DViaoAJpRNTJlQ0juIEQMEwcCug f2zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mx1ppByrz3nEEEmTk1JirDW6Z3EEmS0btzVHTAYmJjw=; b=S3wQSII6HqVccVeWFMg9ugAQ3i2tztn5w/DX0JzxlDaKPfbJ5lfNJ2JYPMo8bBhtEX w13w/KqBoFjKy5+iUd3RmRKbxSms2n2gVyKP0K3JPM18A8piNT0mCW+7dfwdod+MnR4e Lhe774rOd46Uxc4gIJCtZ5wLC9cr3kFR+AIhUB88E8IO3aS5EMhuYvd9LAax73T3aExp PcAde5hSjufXbPUnmr20KvzWXfIdy9PpvqIIbHsh6fWFkT3+qmcHd5AH2I200taxQQjK VcJlRAIdPjgz/Zb22xtqXgCWJPH9Q0WH5tI5gI44ktmrO7h8LarA6XW27clKInud8hmu subg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XKIywf10r5NSe+vO0Wf5mxPDz4ENPanjZNd7UleGyLeuY1MNm lfw9IKPJl9ZYoRImEuSBYbcm6t5mxO4qcg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+VI/W+D/JKD6PcPCjzgepWEBmHSqmjPiTUFWo0bBn82sEgS0DouqvPYZHNd+xKaGhVtFJnQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8c91:b029:e3:d52:9402 with SMTP id t17-20020a1709028c91b02900e30d529402mr4172408plo.21.1613159455703; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h10sm9291754pfn.213.2021.02.12.11.50.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:50:54 -0800 (PST) To: Mallory Knodel , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <566a9702-5ce9-448d-93b0-05a787978adc@beta.fastmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <08433373-cdc7-53fd-2247-bc8104700988@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:50:50 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 19:51:00 -0000 Mallory, > And I think that we should put in the charter that we will start with t= he specific issues related to race, as it is now. Exclude ethnicity, gender and religion from initial consideration? I hope= not. Regards Brian Carpenter On 13-Feb-21 02:40, Mallory Knodel wrote: > A big thank you to everyone who has worked on this! More: >=20 > On 2/11/21 8:43 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: >=20 >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote: >> >>> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, ther= e has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80= =9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in te= chnical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on i= nclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic,= there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from in= formational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminolo= gy in IETF documents.=C2=A0 >> >> I hadn't suggested naming specific terms, but seeing them there I thin= k that having the examples improves this charter, because specific cases = are always more useful than generic, all encompassing phrases ("certain t= erms") in isolation. >> > It risks meaninglessness to be totally generic and fully open to any an= d all interpretations of the words "inclusive" and "exclusive" as others = (Dan, Vitorrio) have said. >=20 > I think we should use the former for the group name-- Inclusive Termino= logy in IETF Documents. >=20 > And I think that we should put in the charter that we will start with t= he specific issues related to race, as it is now. If you'd like a rundown= of why that's important, please watch this from the W3C on essentially t= he very same approach: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2= 020Sep/0020.html >=20 > BTW the W3C also put out a recent decision, too, on the same: https://l= ists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2021JanMar/0017.html >=20 > -Mallory >=20 > --=20 > Mallory Knodel > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 12 12:53:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5DE3A0E3C for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:53:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=CfaNjIh5; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=xMlMJ18+ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BN7p2pe1BmjE for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AED493A0E43 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 97260 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2021 20:53:51 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=17be6.6026eadf.k2102; bh=mSCj/KbVP03I84mRW4S+SVPUT2+xt3oPJjg8DvTm3jc=; b=CfaNjIh5E8q65DrgwIGeWsexxXgzW6eWG0e+WYzUJhadzSqyE05m4varZb60sryxPhNelOUK2U8twSl+nagm1xhcWl14wDQauZkL1PebmbIaagR3pN8L20rQlxv16F98CQsibuTycD/YIkzEi0u+7jHc0bXFrj1QAeOYVepgUT608eNBdaBcqWOCJwnnz+SsEWtVfWWF/kQXUE1VIfJLDZKiWAo833MA2Mp9TG9Rg2DM5VOU1QizOkc4b+2xJlN/ZwXeod4qLIOQC+EfE8CG0o8PTDuZ8BqhaysO7+bv7M8/MLIFO7Gv9mC4lL8iRRaprRVE5hDq8s89m0ouiMx6TQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=17be6.6026eadf.k2102; bh=mSCj/KbVP03I84mRW4S+SVPUT2+xt3oPJjg8DvTm3jc=; b=xMlMJ18++maTHMwR0ea7GiI1csh02elZ3TprP6ME9ZZVc38oaIUwThYs1CPUJ04kCmC9wBZ1EPnoHx34M2kwqHS5UTnxrrJK43T/ij69reTKcnnG7nCTIJkS7+x/bYZiy/y72ZFi9UQE/F7As9Cb3J9DAAmwU9tNpf8e8MrqB/OjZSRH6jWqJLc9gGAQViZdurSw+1UdkVWM8UY0kNWNTIpAzGyqNPDG6TryfYTGsbRKsnPm3ycn9UDpptxHZDaD1LQEt2hrbarc8cz8U+sI8MfPF85KZmL8qckvdDs82D3h97w+L+MB+6mf5kJmdr7NibA+F2tUzuE49cnVZ1OE8Q== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 12 Feb 2021 20:53:51 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 27E4B6DDB49D; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:53:50 -0500 (EST) Date: 12 Feb 2021 15:53:50 -0500 Message-Id: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com In-Reply-To: <968461968.13727.1613122672205@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:53:54 -0000 In article <968461968.13727.1613122672205@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> you write: >However, what I really care about is that any effort to improve language inclusiveness is actually inclusive. Whenever this >discussion comes up, it focuses regularly just on a handful of terms that are deemed offensive to one specific ethnicity in one >specific country. While of course this is not the intention, this often feels exclusive to people from other countries and other >ethnicities; this became apparent during some past discussions on the main IETF list. I share the concern that this is an exercise in which a bunch of mostly rich white people are trying to guess how people who are not rich and white might feel. While I agree it is an important topic to address, it is my strong impression that most of the obvious things one might do, e.g., making lists of words to avoid, are not actually productive. Also, wearing my sort-of-RSE hat, whatever we do has to be advice for document authors, editors, and shepherds. We cannot ask the production center to be our language police. R's, John From nobody Fri Feb 12 13:29:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190A53A0EEF; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:29:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ccD-8epCRuTX; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08CD53A0EEC; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22BB4283DC2; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:29:00 +0000 (UTC) To: John Levine , gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com, Keith Moore References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:24:01 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:29:15 -0000 On 12/2/21 17:53, John Levine wrote: > In article <968461968.13727.1613122672205@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> you write: >> However, what I really care about is that any effort to improve language inclusiveness is actually inclusive. Whenever this >> discussion comes up, it focuses regularly just on a handful of terms that are deemed offensive to one specific ethnicity in one >> specific country. While of course this is not the intention, this often feels exclusive to people from other countries and other >> ethnicities; this became apparent during some past discussions on the main IETF list. > > I share the concern that this is an exercise in which a bunch of > mostly rich white people are trying to guess how people who are not > rich and white might feel. I couldn't have phrased it better than that. (Would also argue that then said group would probably also later claim that the IETF cares about inclusiveness). > While I agree it is an important topic to > address, it is my strong impression that most of the obvious things > one might do, e.g., making lists of words to avoid, are not actually > productive. Well, paraphrasing Lewis Carrol, it all depends where one wants to go. :-) Focusing the effort of inclusiveness on terminology seems to be the sort of thing that essentially doesn't affect the status quo at all -- so that probably tells you how much it'll do for inclusiveness. Note: I don't mind it. However, pretending that one is really helping the situation by deprecating/banning a list of words, while well-intentioned, seems to me like really ignoring the problem. As a hint, this work: draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee does, IMO, more for many axis of inclusiveness than any specific recommnendation on language. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Fri Feb 12 13:29:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920B73A0EEC for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:29:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lHepTROA8FPc for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E2453A0EED for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AAE09283DA9; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:29:05 +0000 (UTC) To: Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List References: From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <900f3e1a-f8cc-8125-a17a-705c1f9fcf2b@gont.com.ar> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:28:46 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:29:17 -0000 Hi, Sean, I may have missed part of the discussion (apologies for that!). But my questions are: * Why would one create a WG on terminology, rather than one on diversity? * Is there a reason for which terminology is something that is deemed of utmost importance while there's no concrete effort to try to tackle many other aspect that affect diversity (in much more concrete ways)? Just one effort on terminology reads to me a lot like: "let's be more polite in or terminology, while we essentially prevents the IETF from becoming a more diverse environment". Thanks, Fernando On 11/2/21 17:39, Sean Turner wrote: > Hi!, > > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG. > > Cheers, > spt > > ---------- > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF. > > Milestones: > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations > -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Fri Feb 12 13:33:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A4713A0EF3 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:33:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jZ_m-9l5fdWf for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A707C3A0EF2 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 812E1283DA9; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:33:48 +0000 (UTC) To: Mallory Knodel , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <566a9702-5ce9-448d-93b0-05a787978adc@beta.fastmail.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <44860666-38eb-b612-6f37-2c30aba75f76@gont.com.ar> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:33:40 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:33:53 -0000 Hi, Mallory, On 12/2/21 10:40, Mallory Knodel wrote: > A big thank you to everyone who has worked on this! More: > [...] > > And I think that we should put in the charter that we will start with > the specific issues related to race, as it is now. If you'd like a > rundown of why that's important, please watch this from the W3C on > essentially the very same approach: > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Sep/0020.html This is exactly the reason for which I noted this on the ietf@ list recently: * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/ekD8cCcBqiKLHO9hnanRSgSp9A8/ * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/zjKlON-cgS4Y5vQtgFzrdzq1VVM/ Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Fri Feb 12 14:11:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173B53A0FEC for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:11:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4IGezX5HsQ3R for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:11:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9F183A0FEB for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:11:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87CFF5C003A for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:11:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=TBIJuqaVy0I3noQ0K3ziP36kbBBJud6Pmym+X+cKA qQ=; b=P8pJBsBIfSVO6mQGvh5MRYl+Xzvpm5TgM4MtlgGz6U7uBUefxmXeJaNOy ItlPFq04OjGeEhVBbqjJ0XN2t24zN0nmlVKoS3FJVxk2uhUfHmWBo0WDYALHBqr9 ZM8BcudoemjtCkYd2EingW+VrmvVeTn06nckajg+J4f6p2riW754tpkBiPnYuc8q xHv2HbKa3R91oLwsydn9ggjRDaaYTuaBvf2PtDwiwH7k8xwLOISgdcTdxvtvmSUn DaaCdQg7Jj2gdEcLSuYUzqex3aRFD9CKhUCFTLe/BffZeewuBHh1BACTkdokyXNS LePkbPfc6u1M5+TXABDs9pYP6Zylg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledriedugdduieduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 090011080059 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:11:00 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <566a9702-5ce9-448d-93b0-05a787978adc@beta.fastmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <8b93ed7a-6f53-1d48-9f37-b3c013d7ea61@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:11:00 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 22:11:08 -0000 On 2/12/21 8:40 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote: > And I think that we should put in the charter that we will start with > the specific issues related to race, as it is now. Emphatically  disagree.    I want IETF to be more inclusive because I think it results in better standards and better service to the Internet community.   But tuning for specific categories is just trying to replace one set of prejudices with another. From nobody Fri Feb 12 14:19:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1C63A0FF4 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:18:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NSL4oPYVETFV for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C147C3A0FF6 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14580283E19; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 22:18:54 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <566a9702-5ce9-448d-93b0-05a787978adc@beta.fastmail.com> <8b93ed7a-6f53-1d48-9f37-b3c013d7ea61@network-heretics.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 19:18:46 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8b93ed7a-6f53-1d48-9f37-b3c013d7ea61@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 22:19:00 -0000 On 12/2/21 19:11, Keith Moore wrote: > On 2/12/21 8:40 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote: > >> And I think that we should put in the charter that we will start with >> the specific issues related to race, as it is now. > > Emphatically  disagree. Same here. As noted, I'd also like to know why terminology is deemed of particular importance when it comes to diversity. I'm not arguing that it doesn't matter. But I *am* arguing that the IETF should really try to analyze the diversity problem, and actually do something concrete about it -- rather than simply have something useful for a "diversity" checkbox. There are many more concrete aspects that affect diversity. So it is quite puzzling that the one the IETF seems to agree to work on is probably the only one that, for the most part, doesn't affect the status quo. There's probably a message in there. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Feb 12 16:36:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A539E3A11C4; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:33:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: alissa@cooperw.in, gendispatch@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <161317640765.31337.9706574012543619579@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:33:27 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] gendispatch - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 110 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:33:36 -0000 Dear Francesca Palombini, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. gendispatch Session 1 (2:00 requested) Tuesday, 9 March 2021, Session III 1700-1900 Room Name: Room 2 size: 502 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/sessions/gendispatch.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Francesca Palombini Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: artarea cbor ace core lake quic dprive anima opsawg spring tls wpack webtrans raw secdispatch emailcore Technology Overlap: genarea People who must be present: Alissa Cooper Francesca Palombini Pete Resnick Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 12 16:58:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C8443A2415 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:58:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bh8djOfPTbR9 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3044B3A1BD3 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FBA8BFA8; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:53:59 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JACSl3jwOs_7; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:53:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 16762BFA0; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:53:57 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1613177637; bh=TW/sMAbmXKLFRiwDdH89eeOR3mzLXFNu6IMENySe+Qg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=abQZQReP0psaSYzd8xzBNl1QbKvg6fCxpVGmc9sFvKTqRueFSlEAVYthQhWX2/3aR MTyVQ31jMojULreqPY8Jki7OD13eXH8F4A3dr5MqAbgsHL5zABaDhSuhg5yq6YT52e VsTev53snih1Whw6A+dGZoFXBZbEZ/pFpdhon8xk= To: Fernando Gont , John Levine , gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com, Keith Moore References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:53:56 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JMvDLP9wU24kYy2lJsIWbZ7yFMeOzUPID" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:58:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --JMvDLP9wU24kYy2lJsIWbZ7yFMeOzUPID Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="TQ06wqf2qw3QTNmiWVsgHL5vY79iBnHD4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Fernando Gont , John Levine , gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com, Keith Moore Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> --TQ06wqf2qw3QTNmiWVsgHL5vY79iBnHD4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E22E73CE061283475E0CAC89" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E22E73CE061283475E0CAC89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Fernando is spot on here: On 12/02/2021 21:24, Fernando Gont wrote: > As a hint, this work: draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee does, IMO, more= =20 > for many axis of inclusiveness than any specific recommnendation on=20 > language. It's always seemed to me that the main unfair advantage we who can choose to engage with the IETF enjoy is the time and money to spend the money and time required to meaningfully participate. I don't know how to fix that but I do think that draft from Mirja, Jon and Rich comes the closest I've seen to attempting to address that usefully. More of the same would be great. 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Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD85B3A11ED for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:08:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6UnFUYTxRLtz for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No 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multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e82dee05bb2e38be" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 02:08:05 -0000 --000000000000e82dee05bb2e38be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can=E2=80=99t cho= ose to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity, just because we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this carefully crafted and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on inclusive terminology). I=E2=80=99m here=E2=80=94 and many of us are ready=E2=80=94 to support all = of these other ideas, too. -M On Friday, February 12, 2021, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > I think Fernando is spot on here: > > On 12/02/2021 21:24, Fernando Gont wrote: > >> As a hint, this work: draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee does, IMO, more >> for many axis of inclusiveness than any specific recommnendation on >> language. >> > > It's always seemed to me that the main unfair advantage we > who can choose to engage with the IETF enjoy is the time and > money to spend the money and time required to meaningfully > participate. I don't know how to fix that but I do think that > draft from Mirja, Jon and Rich comes the closest I've seen to > attempting to address that usefully. > > More of the same would be great. > > Cheers, > S. > > > > --=20 Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --000000000000e82dee05bb2e38be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can=E2=80=99t cho= ose to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity, just becau= se we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this carefully crafte= d and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on inclusive terminology).<= div>
I=E2=80=99m here=E2=80=94 and many of us are ready=E2=80= =94 to support all of these other ideas, too.

-M


On Friday, February 12, 2021, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> w= rote:

I think Fernando is spot on here:

On 12/02/2021 21:24, Fernando Gont wrote:
As a hint, this work: draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee does, IMO, mor= e for many axis of inclusiveness than any specific recommnendation on langu= age.

It's always seemed to me that the main unfair advantage we
who can choose to engage with the IETF enjoy is the time and
money to spend the money and time required to meaningfully
participate. I don't know how to fix that but I do think that
draft from Mirja, Jon and Rich comes the closest I've seen to
attempting to address that usefully.

More of the same would be great.

Cheers,
S.





--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Techn= ology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C= 780


--000000000000e82dee05bb2e38be-- From nobody Fri Feb 12 18:13:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74A63A1205 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:13:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lda_hKFFtKLu for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B332E3A1204 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0A95C0189; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:13:04 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=UkCnA3tK0iPsTc6Czc6rdkK7YnJ8vBKvuhwVW9dDn to=; b=hL6DZsh7UytGIcjA/z5hf0csvvaE02C3ogTqYZGGuCpnf1btMK2OL4y51 N3osYzyu+Bw/eDZNyoxwNekhduelMHcgUTnMw7jUqtKB+q8x8tKOveTduqAROFNk W9k41LogW1CuEstPMAytmmBIlW2exnnXq/R1Y+s4TDy3Dzg0ovuPHAOp6piyWuJb EI9Bl8fOK0dVpGRmbQuRBn8giffmA5/TYJu+cYjD/4d4as72YS3p7laUv4pTqxth epvzUygpZtd4PH/+err4SmLNUKxnspjlCLJ/GDc4mGxBZl8J8HaLZSgjswWppVYe 2eYs9WFuNioomoOdVXVtR/K5tgzLA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledriedvgdeggecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhh ucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfefgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeel leeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EB4CC1080059; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:13:02 -0500 (EST) To: Mallory Knodel , Stephen Farrell Cc: Fernando Gont , John Levine , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <67054da1-8d13-2c01-9a18-4f46ca45e0b5@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:13:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 02:13:08 -0000 On 2/12/21 9:08 PM, Mallory Knodel wrote: > Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can’t choose > to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity, just > because we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this > carefully crafted and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on > inclusive terminology). A strange assumption would be that there aren't limitations to our resources - e.g. that active working groups don't take time and energy away from other potential working groups. There's nothing wrong with focusing on the most significant problems first. Keith From nobody Fri Feb 12 18:21:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507BD3A1214 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:21:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSXP2G7wpZRq for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C84D3A1213 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0A88D283E19; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 02:20:53 +0000 (UTC) To: Stephen Farrell , Fernando Gont , John Levine , gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com, Keith Moore References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 23:01:04 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 02:21:04 -0000 On 12/2/21 21:53, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > I think Fernando is spot on here: > > On 12/02/2021 21:24, Fernando Gont wrote: >> As a hint, this work: draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee does, IMO, >> more for many axis of inclusiveness than any specific recommnendation >> on language. > > It's always seemed to me that the main unfair advantage we > who can choose to engage with the IETF enjoy is the time and > money to spend the money and time required to meaningfully > participate. That is, indeed, probably the biggest part of it. At times there are other things more or less related with that: e.g., from a practical point of view, the experience you get when participating may depend a lot on your affiliation -- for numerous reasons. Also, the ability to spend time and money tends to also have an effect on your opportunities to socialize your work and socialize yourself. -- this means that different folks, with the same skills and abilities, might be able to get different things from the time they invest. The ability to e.g. regularly participate in person may e.g. at times somehow (and somewhat) mitigate the drawbacks of participating from under-represented organizations. > I don't know how to fix that but I do think that > draft from Mirja, Jon and Rich comes the closest I've seen to > attempting to address that usefully. Fully agreed. Ironically, the pandemic, together with the availability of a fee waiver (kudos to whoever was involved in such decision), probably made much more for participation fairness than most discussions we have had on the topic. In that respect, I applaud the effort pursued in draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee. It would seem to me that the same idea could be extrapolated to in-person meetings, and that the Internet Society could be of help here (if there's a will to do so). (There used to be an "IETF fellowship" program run by the Internet Society, which IMO was rather flawed in how it was run. However, my understanding is that rather than fixing it, it was discontinued). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Feb 12 18:47:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703D43A1261 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:47:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8e7DsIDIoYS2 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A1C13A1260 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B95B0283D3A; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 02:47:13 +0000 (UTC) To: Mallory Knodel , Stephen Farrell Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" , John Levine , Fernando Gont , Keith Moore References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 23:35:27 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 02:47:25 -0000 On 12/2/21 23:08, Mallory Knodel wrote: > Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can’t choose > to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity, just > because we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this > carefully crafted and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on > inclusive terminology). IMO, this boils down to: what is the problem that one is trying to solve? If the ultimate goal is that to make the IETF more inclusive, and foster diversity, then the question is: Do folks think that the high order bit of what prevents diversity and makes the IETF less-inclusive is language? And if so, how did they get to that conclusion? As noted in a previous email, there seem to be structural issues that have nothing to do with language, and that have a higher impact of fairness and inclusiveness than language itself. But none of them (other than draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee) are being addressed or discussed -- much less being considered to spin off a wg. At the end of the day, energy is a limited resource, and one should probably set the ultimate goal, and aim to achieve it with the things that have more concrete impact. (wrt terminology, as an author, I'd be fine with an online repo of words that I could/should try to avoid if possible -- and I guess a tool (such as spell-check) from the fine folks at tools.ietf.org that finds them and proposes alternatives would do the trick, without the need for a lot of process). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Feb 12 20:34:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E0D3A0D29 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:34:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5YMHIZkbW3tn for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3204D3A0D28 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.104.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 11D4XgK5012521 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:33:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1613190834; x=1613277234; i=@elandsys.com; bh=LOBtEClpFLddHqz/ABPGQoFoyGYt7hflPztC4HPyi68=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=LZ46DVnAblc0RtYdceokljZ2gFIf3/vg/np4LcObeNIcRoTdzeEUCRS9nrW9l7lKP RSFlydWtCN97x14f7pxBvggCrCiag0fDwoCPZTRQrqwCAqkGmm3X9lJeO+PVSzBhMD SPBQcuHqb+eYlQ0oUp0Qkl1zLKzrmN2sqXX8l/u4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210212202719.15940330@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 20:31:59 -0800 To: Sean Turner , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 04:34:06 -0000 Hi Sean, At 12:39 PM 11-02-2021, Sean Turner wrote: >--------- > >Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >---- > >The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high >quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people >design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The >ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents >that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs >and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology >that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from >varying backgrounds and cultures. RFC 7332 is a style guide for RFCs. Why are Internet-Drafts included in the above? Will the participants in the proposed working group be of varying backgrounds and culture? Regards, S. 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Sat, 13 Feb 2021 11:57:15 +0100 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 11:57:15 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Mallory Knodel Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1799272646.5561.1613213835213@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5559_1577116707.1613213835184" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:57:20 -0000 ------=_Part_5559_1577116707.1613213835184 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Il 13/02/2021 03:08 Mallory Knodel ha scritto: >=20 >=20 > Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can=E2=80= =99t choose to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity, ju= st because we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this carefull= y crafted and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on inclusive termin= ology). >=20 > I=E2=80=99m here=E2=80=94 and many of us are ready=E2=80=94 to suppor= t all of these other ideas, too. >=20 I share Fernando's view that language improvement is quite low in the scale= of priorities to make the IETF actually more inclusive, but at the same ti= me, I also agree with your point that we can do more than one thing at the = same time. I would however create a single WG that can deal with all divers= ity-related issues; there, people that want to work on a specific problem, = including language, can find a home for their drafts. I don't see why we sh= ould have one WG on language inclusiveness, another one on participation in= clusiveness etc., also given that SHMOO is chartered only to discuss the is= sues related to remote online participation and not those related to other = factors that make participation difficult. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com= =20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_5559_1577116707.1613213835184 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20

Il 13/02/2021 03:08 Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org> ha scritto:


Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can=E2= =80=99t choose to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity,= just because we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this caref= ully crafted and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on inclusive ter= minology).

I=E2=80=99m here=E2=80=94 and many of us are ready=E2=80=94 to support = all of these other ideas, too.
I share Fernando's view that language improvement is quite low in the sc= ale of priorities to make the IETF actually more inclusive, but at the same= time, I also agree with your point that we can do more than one thing at t= he same time. I would however create a single WG that can deal with all div= ersity-related issues; there, people that want to work on a specific proble= m, including language, can find a home for their drafts. I don't see why we= should have one WG on language inclusiveness, another one on participation= inclusiveness etc., also given that SHMOO is chartered only to discuss the= issues related to remote online participation and not those related to oth= er factors that make participation difficult.

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open=
-Xchange
vittorio.b=
ertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Ital=
y
------=_Part_5559_1577116707.1613213835184-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 03:05:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F92A3A0EDF for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 03:05:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hNC-lsj3lmiR for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 03:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 325853A0EDA for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 03:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DBDEF280205; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 11:04:57 +0000 (UTC) To: Vittorio Bertola , Mallory Knodel Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <1799272646.5561.1613213835213@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:00:55 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1799272646.5561.1613213835213@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 11:05:13 -0000 Hi, Vittorio, On 13/2/21 07:57, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 13/02/2021 03:08 Mallory Knodel ha scritto: >> >> >> Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can’t choose >> to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity, just >> because we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this >> carefully crafted and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on >> inclusive terminology). >> >> I’m here— and many of us are ready— to support all of these other >> ideas, too. > I share Fernando's view that language improvement is quite low in the > scale of priorities to make the IETF actually more inclusive, but at the > same time, I also agree with your point that we can do more than one > thing at the same time. I would however create a single WG that can deal > with all diversity-related issues; there, people that want to work on a > specific problem, including language, can find a home for their drafts. > I don't see why we should have one WG on language inclusiveness, another > one on participation inclusiveness etc., also given that SHMOO is > chartered only to discuss the issues related to remote online > participation and not those related to other factors that make > participation difficult. +1 Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Feb 13 08:49:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB3E3A0E2E for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:49:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8CU-PVCHCpU for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 899F53A0E2A for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCB5BF38; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:49:31 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HyiL60XK7JU; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:49:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F0A0BF37; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:49:29 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1613234969; bh=GWgeBgcicBsZug3okZPfqbCNNbL8pluWp07h7+tOhxs=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Xp0NivHdmofL5WhJ6XqARExfXq84rWwT75d1piSWEprLVscxpVeeg67qRPGQFNyso d42YiTODiMZNnjX60JLDUNSWH/jhuajqNBvSugn6M+mn8fKbkHrrtTQx+7JfigIdtX 9eR1Ey6sbvidLOb1vbNTZJOA2E5T7bQ70OVQbIEY= To: Vittorio Bertola , Mallory Knodel Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <1799272646.5561.1613213835213@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <6aaecc62-e892-af0a-aa5b-a5c436a0b9bc@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:49:28 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1799272646.5561.1613213835213@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VpvGk2ezr4pCaVIeae7QxAeXvvIxjWdoi" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:49:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --VpvGk2ezr4pCaVIeae7QxAeXvvIxjWdoi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="eQ0ERvUwrJaS9rtOEpp8INhbPO7euYdGW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio Bertola , Mallory Knodel Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <6aaecc62-e892-af0a-aa5b-a5c436a0b9bc@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <1799272646.5561.1613213835213@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1799272646.5561.1613213835213@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> --eQ0ERvUwrJaS9rtOEpp8INhbPO7euYdGW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AFF07C185C3F3E2EF9F8FA7B" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AFF07C185C3F3E2EF9F8FA7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13/02/2021 10:57, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > I would however create a single WG that can deal with all > diversity-related issues; there, people that want to work on a > specific problem, including language, can find a home for their > drafts.=20 -1 - I don't think that'd work for quite a few reasons. The IETF works better when we tackle more focussed problems. 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmAoAxgFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+o6 aBAAxxs4O+OW54ycdyqutjhWFRrBDNxW8sMmH5Lnvpbt+An8Mcw2K6zsq/LJnizU+yyvz6xEoOn4 hDum6/2yNlUnBFxw0VeJ+zc3/zAzBqohXl85CR52RO9wSky9mTmXVo7G9MRjWpf13hLjJd6HB5Ro De5YRiQgbzkQ8rdibKdh+9lllOo4xp8Mn7YYetRrK+V2Cv3mTH+D+9lI8ofSqvJnPutHOgdcrlGj fQoWl9JKv/wlD1/5qzDoVaPpsEebt2YImXcEkt+mJwDAkDLJgclZ7BHiwx7up0V2mgLohjU5c5PB sZJL7YRkZhd3bR7UdpV6tZqPC+TyIK3E1bkJq/1SgX8oFxmp0gF9dTEESzk2iOOkj2cmUvWVweLL 5HvpytqYXCYMPztSRiknhYiUs9nn9sOlMwVWQ+ZFdfgq1Skxc9v5ecaMv+vHG/M7uy/UyR3KYDNN W8DWIXhVUmzVnQ7X0xvmFK2jIqSHL7YjVt6ZyhP/sEAMHfpqwqxWZXPIwEXO8xWshzaHtJTPqQDa CoY1oJERpxGMPtTjtv3QXCvnXAaoNrhyxpF0sKCVad4WqGcTUd/OoItZNPMEkrUZP/F+NWMiJDM2 HCYgzOIDV28YTzlmygjsFOpMw82IC+QumDXx/3u4DEjSo2YOyLcuj/9UEFFe2zhLhnFrfXyfzEFQ X4g= =602y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VpvGk2ezr4pCaVIeae7QxAeXvvIxjWdoi-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 09:20:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5FD63A0E78 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:20:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dI3ZRq4F_k-A for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C7AD3A0E74 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BD6AE2801EF; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:20:31 +0000 (UTC) To: Stephen Farrell , Vittorio Bertola , Mallory Knodel Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <1799272646.5561.1613213835213@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6aaecc62-e892-af0a-aa5b-a5c436a0b9bc@cs.tcd.ie> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <6baef350-f929-bb92-0e30-892fc5d6b06e@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:19:15 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6aaecc62-e892-af0a-aa5b-a5c436a0b9bc@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:20:44 -0000 Hi, Stephen, On 13/2/21 13:49, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 13/02/2021 10:57, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> I would however create a single WG that can deal with all >> diversity-related issues; there, people that want to work on a >> specific problem, including language, can find a home for their >> drafts. > -1 - I don't think that'd work for quite a few reasons. > > The IETF works better when we tackle more focussed problems. Unless you expect a variety of documents on language (I'd expect at most one), I'm not sure why a specific w.g. would be needed to essentially publish a single document. And if the same logic is followed, then I guess we'd need: * wg chair diversity wg * IESG diversity WG * IAB diversity wg * Meeting fee diversity wg * Nomcom diversity wg * Venue diversity wg . . . And probably many others. All of which certainly would need some work, and have way more impact on diversity -- each of which we're most likely much more qualified to discuss than language... Seems like over-engineering a topic on which we're mostly second-guessing.... Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Feb 13 10:07:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8D93A08F4 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:07:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 702KHm0iM451 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BACB83A08ED for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:07:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1898; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1613239625; x=1614449225; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=YJm/yGM8pCsjzt5GWYdy9HZQmy6hFmLSXsREUDg0m60=; b=axjFneWe48r4yzVXjIYdz42iT5p6ikYZ5TNNKTPTeFtrAsqyn53H9IB0 31DJ/nM1c1nGd7nh2uHClW6b58npLye23tLzD8D6hegC+l68qh/1BRz89 J2dhDOl6F+xKuwCpVgb7Gmpb7+Q4UD9xWsUWaWedHgHAAwBrZufXWa8Jq c=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A2BAAwFChg/xbLJq1iHQEBAQEJARIBBQUBgg+DdwEnE?= =?us-ascii?q?oRyiQSIUZxHBAcBAQEKAwEBNAQBAYRNAoIIJjgTAgMBAQEDAgMBAQEBBQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QIBBgRxhW6GRQEEASNIDhALDjQCAlcGgwMBgmYgr1J2gTKFWIRwEIE4gVOLb?= =?us-ascii?q?0KCAoE4HIJXPodUNIIrBIMug0ePdIxdnEiDBIMqgTqXJgMfoy2ObaNVg3MCB?= =?us-ascii?q?AYFAhaBbCMqgS0zGggbFTsqAYI/PRIZDZxqQANmAgYBCQEBAwmMEwEB?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,176,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="31006204" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 13 Feb 2021 18:07:01 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp7259.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp7259.cisco.com [10.61.92.90]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11DI70GX009707 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:07:01 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CE2E8F5C-D43D-4029-94AF-EF75C440C34F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:06:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List To: Eric Rescorla References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.92.90, ams3-vpn-dhcp7259.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:07:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CE2E8F5C-D43D-4029-94AF-EF75C440C34F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, >=20 > I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC = might contain. Perhaps: >=20 > These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for = judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of specific = terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives. I believe that the (1) is a prerequisite for understanding (2). (1) is = not something that this organization has the critical mass of expertise = to develop.* Rather we must reference the work of others. Before we = charter a WG, I would like to understand from whence these principles or = their basis will come, and why those sources should be considered = authoritative. Otherwise we are setting ourselves up to have the same = arguments again and again and again. Let=E2=80=99s not do that. Eliot *And were it otherwise, perhaps we wouldn=E2=80=99t need such a working = group in the first place. --Apple-Mail=_CE2E8F5C-D43D-4029-94AF-EF75C440C34F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAoFUMACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejPaFQgAwygYqR7g8m3R3CdKNTY1CF7kJqMOLEq35452kvN71Oq+0IiqzwAxAlIW Bp2AzE8UYfuq0nqtLXzodyZGvl0TLeRboGZyZaD2B7iFYR7wzwEdaLKqycr3ll1B xzSPcgfxT2kd3ZDfW71sTPH5OYDfkIlNvKgruS2UmG0+fcbMbR6Wwm4CTB0iIvwx aG6rRqnxFen5CNvS7+pk8Tr2GxXxS/hJMSTSfMCmyLmPYvy/IVuzzCwWXLbY3OJV lt/ghnj52MctBmkrzNPvSblMX7qHz6CBLOWlfQE5BP9C0y9xE8/Z0NFlIthskFY5 bJZQ5gQJ7f3jyQmsl/ySf29aDV+Vug== =I4Yw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_CE2E8F5C-D43D-4029-94AF-EF75C440C34F-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 10:27:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E382E3A0990 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:27:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5oiFIfWLEfAw for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DC473A098D for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOH0AY6LCM7A6@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:27:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOH00JEYCKFEO@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:26:40 -0800 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:27:42 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_DLpV7QJxHVFymM1yLI7ZfQ)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210212b] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:27:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_DLpV7QJxHVFymM1yLI7ZfQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT   Hello again, On 2/13/21 10:06 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi, > >> I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC might contain. Perhaps: >> >> These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of specific terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives. > I believe that the (1) is a prerequisite for understanding (2). (1) is not something that this organization has the critical mass of expertise to develop.* Rather we must reference the work of others. Before we charter a WG, I would like to understand from whence these principles or their basis will come, and why those sources should be considered authoritative. Otherwise we are setting ourselves up to have the same arguments again and again and again. Let’s not do that.   I would posit that an authoritative source on (1) would be able to coherently explain the relationship between using specific language and diversity. There seems to be a kind of "underpants gnomes" [1] explanation that goes like this:   step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave"   step 2: ???   step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from step 1 to step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter.   regards,   Dan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomes_(South_Park) > Eliot > *And were it otherwise, perhaps we wouldn’t need such a working group in the first place. > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_DLpV7QJxHVFymM1yLI7ZfQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
  Hello again,

On 2/13/21 10:06 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Hi,


I think it might be helpful to scope out a little more what this RFC might contain. Perhaps:

These recommendations will consist of (1) general principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive (2) a list of specific terms to avoid and recommendations for alternatives.

I believe that the (1) is a prerequisite for understanding (2).   (1) is not something that this organization has the critical mass of expertise to develop.*  Rather we must reference the work of others.  Before we charter a WG, I would like to understand from whence these principles or their basis will come, and why those sources should be considered authoritative.  Otherwise we are setting ourselves up to have the same arguments again and again and again.  Let’s not do that.
 
  I would posit that an authoritative source on (1) would be able to coherently
explain the relationship between using specific language and diversity. There
seems to be a kind of "underpants gnomes" [1] explanation that goes like this:

  step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave"
  step 2: ???
  step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF

So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from step 1 to
step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter.

  regards,

  Dan.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomes_(South_Park)

 
Eliot
*And were it otherwise, perhaps we wouldn’t need such a working group in the first place.



-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_DLpV7QJxHVFymM1yLI7ZfQ)-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 12:19:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD933A0CD2 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:18:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id imfyC6axeikp for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 389653A0CE9 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 913B628028D; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:18:49 +0000 (UTC) To: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 15:38:37 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:19:06 -0000 On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote: [...] > >   step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave" >   step 2: ??? >   step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF > > So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from step 1 to > step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter. Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group should study what's the high-order bit to get there? This seems like arguing the other way around: "Tell me how inclusive language helps diversity and inclusiveness such that we can pursue it". Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Sat Feb 13 14:53:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D956A3A10C0 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:53:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=UtLYYxxP; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=GK/D4WhB Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id THkERTWmhSki for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F390E3A10BC for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E175C0081; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:53:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=v Aea8YliDjAt79NbNS6Naq7TDud2zS0JvuEi+DKFdW8=; b=UtLYYxxPREF9EfL30 mzSZTb7Z4hoECbK3aIOGCpxTCDFlQVKXeLt7XmXQ4fq7aErDd+pikCsSuyhBS7iW NIqfR2JSzsMMUzQ6k0DctW8RIsjVn7yIda9Ej6b2X7uwjeTDNsj7gFToxcU7D/IL 0CsU+niGmo7sAtGvEduZe1dObgKZ4WPI/Xw2Hph0X3Vpkg3ZpNVxTYuII/yDv9dI X/ZKEyX4O5JujKD10G4+RvFBIKppkIfPCWHIbfnOQC7+qIDvd7NyvcpvRLIXPbPv 9Huk+uSHlTD5m9rMzVu6vTqYofzmV0CbxG3yJhcL+Xg8qkYnOHrTcS9zPUhTBB0f YrsGA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=vAea8YliDjAt79NbNS6Naq7TDud2zS0JvuEi+DKFd W8=; b=GK/D4WhBpcxJwGyZ3v6Rgv/9yDWVX7iSPcg/HtrgPo39Y4rGx7hj5e8Qq OuIvTDqEYTiEV6Y1ux9eygNVTm+ACHyWUK74Nx5uMop2XZUhQvpSuyIVOi9GVqt1 ztpj1ae78XhoB8xBAAyMkQnCY+X41IMY2pEo2x5liBZpxp5lnAvB2r6/17w6I7ML IPlfXgKjCd6eYNZF+ae7zwdn/fogX2yHXGbXOHY7RHehndH/7RfzGgcoQgVNSYx0 WZ80KBxJd7BR9htia1hynskxnA5+tup4IDXmd3rq6jM6zMXPavVc6QC56b6w5ut0 meJJZqhLGOEtR34OtDIY98r6V69Eg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieeggddtudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepfeegvdfgjeegvdetuedukeevfefhheelieevjeejkefhffehkeejieekjedtheej necuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrd dujedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgr ihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AD61424005B; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:53:02 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:52:59 +1100 Cc: Mallory Knodel , Stephen Farrell , John Levine , "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont , Keith Moore Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 22:53:21 -0000 This issue is settled in much of tech, so we have strong cowpaths to = pave. As a result, the amount of energy that it will take to create = language guidelines is almost completely determined by how much energy = people put into trying to stop it.=20 If people have legitimate reasons as to why we shouldn't do this, that's = one thing; 'our energy is better spent elsewhere' is not one of them. No = where in the IETF is such an argument acceptable against a charter; we = routinely charter groups that many feel aren't worth the effort, but I = don't get to determine how people in the routing area (for example) = spend their time, as long as there's demonstrated support for it. If you have better ideas about how to improve inclusivity and diversity = in the IETF, suggest a (parallel) charter. This one will be judged based = upon the interest expressed in it and the legitimacy of any objections = against it -- just as with every other charter. OTOH if you're suggesting that the IETF introduce a metric for new = charters that considers priority between different possible efforts, I'm = all for it -- provided that the first item of business is reviewing ALL = current working groups on those criteria. Cheers, > On 13 Feb 2021, at 1:35 pm, Fernando Gont = wrote: >=20 > On 12/2/21 23:08, Mallory Knodel wrote: >> Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can=E2=80=99t= choose to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity, = just because we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this = carefully crafted and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on = inclusive terminology). >=20 > IMO, this boils down to: what is the problem that one is trying to = solve? >=20 > If the ultimate goal is that to make the IETF more inclusive, and = foster diversity, then the question is: >=20 > Do folks think that the high order bit of what prevents diversity = and > makes the IETF less-inclusive is language? And if so, how did they > get to that conclusion? >=20 > As noted in a previous email, there seem to be structural issues that = have nothing to do with language, and that have a higher impact of = fairness and inclusiveness than language itself. But none of them (other = than draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee) are being addressed or discussed = -- much less being considered to spin off a wg. >=20 > At the end of the day, energy is a limited resource, and one should = probably set the ultimate goal, and aim to achieve it with the things = that have more concrete impact. >=20 > (wrt terminology, as an author, I'd be fine with an online repo of = words that I could/should try to avoid if possible -- and I guess a tool = (such as spell-check) from the fine folks at tools.ietf.org that finds = them and proposes alternatives would do the trick, without the need for = a lot of process). >=20 > Thanks, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sat Feb 13 15:56:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345C53A1178 for ; 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Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:56:44 -0500 (EST) To: Mark Nottingham , Fernando Gont Cc: Mallory Knodel , Stephen Farrell , John Levine , "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:56:43 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 23:56:51 -0000 On 2/13/21 5:52 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > This issue is settled in much of tech, so we have strong cowpaths to pave. As a result, the amount of energy that it will take to create language guidelines is almost completely determined by how much energy people put into trying to stop it. > > If people have legitimate reasons as to why we shouldn't do this, that's one thing; 'our energy is better spent elsewhere' is not one of them. To me this proposal looks like a DoS attack against actually increasing inclusion in IETF.   Why actually do the hard work when we can fill in a check box and pretend we have virtue? If we want to publish a document that talks about exclusionary language, let's just Last Call what we have once or twice (but no more than that) and be done with it.   I don't think a WG is going to improve the document as much as community-wide Last Calls, and IMO a WG on this topic has a lot more potential to do harm than good. > No where in the IETF is such an argument acceptable against a charter; we routinely charter groups that many feel aren't worth the effort, but I don't get to determine how people in the routing area (for example) spend their time, as long as there's demonstrated support for it. We're not bound by stare decisis.   We shouldn't use poor past practice to justify poor present or future practice.   That's called propagation of error. It's one thing when a WG's topic area only affects people in a narrow area of interest.   If a WG isn't going to create problems for people outside that area of interest, a narrowly focused WG makes sense. But this is a topic that potentially affects everyone who writes RFCs.   Burying this discussion in a WG that most people probably don't want to fool with, seems likely to produce two results: (1) a document that doesn't earn community-wide consensus (but might end impairing our ability to write RFCs anyway), and/or (2) a lot of people's time spent arguing with people that will be attracted by this topic but who don't have a strong interest in IETF work outside of that topic. > If you have better ideas about how to improve inclusivity and diversity in the IETF, suggest a (parallel) charter. This one will be judged based upon the interest expressed in it and the legitimacy of any objections against it -- just as with every other charter. Maybe it's not the sort of problem that a working group can reliably solve?     Sometimes a working group is a way of avoiding a problem rather than solving one. > OTOH if you're suggesting that the IETF introduce a metric for new charters that considers priority between different possible efforts, I'm all for it -- provided that the first item of business is reviewing ALL current working groups on those criteria. Now there's an idea that might be worth discussion.   (Just please don't suggest a working group to review working groups. But a WG to sketch out nonbinding review criteria... maybe.) Keith From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:11:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E053A1193 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:11:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2-2kroXtrll2 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCE5C3A1191 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DdSMg58t0z1pH47; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:11:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1613261503; bh=MhFrTz1+NM+/NyFbdhuUIg8HbCVBwGOWHj2P8GOErd0=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EZVHBfkc1413HZF1f19BA0432IaMPaLupM+sOpARoLUhDyBJz8BaeKdQ9h6x8QSyu K0AidsISLZleLK3O+Enfaq7i98mYCX3teS5ySm+sFC/W2d1p4+ek+cn6VMvWNxR/hw ixuEYmeaUWRFkW54hUp8avGeOzRRIS3KmjRaJIEs= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DdSMf2nBxz1nvFl; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:11:42 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Nottingham , Fernando Gont Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:11:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:11:45 -0000 Watching this debate, I am hoping there is some way to thread this needle. On the one hand, there are a lot of external indications that language usage is causing a significant population problems. I would like to see the IETF as a community recognize that and write down suggestions on ways to improve it. At the same time, I grant that there are a number of other aspects of how we do business that create barriers in other ways. I have seen suggestion from various people that I think deserve evaluation. However, I am unable to construct a proposed charter that would provide any coherence and bounds to such efforts. And process improvements (which is the general category of the proposals I have seen) are hard enough even when tightly scoped. Chartering a new process WG without a clear goal is a recipe for wasting a lot of people's time without achieving any of the goals. What I am wondering is if any of the folks who are concerned abut issues outside of language selection can draft a charter. Then we, and the IETF, can decide (assuming we agree on the value of the proposal) if the two charters should be combined, if we should have two working groups, or if we should have only one (and which.) I don't think it is really fair to the proponents of this proposal to object on the grounds that we should do some unspecified different thing. Yours, Joel On 2/13/2021 6:56 PM, Keith Moore wrote: > On 2/13/21 5:52 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> This issue is settled in much of tech, so we have strong cowpaths to >> pave. As a result, the amount of energy that it will take to create >> language guidelines is almost completely determined by how much energy >> people put into trying to stop it. >> >> If people have legitimate reasons as to why we shouldn't do this, >> that's one thing; 'our energy is better spent elsewhere' is not one of >> them. > > To me this proposal looks like a DoS attack against actually increasing > inclusion in IETF.   Why actually do the hard work when we can fill in a > check box and pretend we have virtue? > > If we want to publish a document that talks about exclusionary language, > let's just Last Call what we have once or twice (but no more than that) > and be done with it.   I don't think a WG is going to improve the > document as much as community-wide Last Calls, and IMO a WG on this > topic has a lot more potential to do harm than good. > >> No where in the IETF is such an argument acceptable against a charter; >> we routinely charter groups that many feel aren't worth the effort, >> but I don't get to determine how people in the routing area (for >> example) spend their time, as long as there's demonstrated support for >> it. > We're not bound by stare decisis.   We shouldn't use poor past practice > to justify poor present or future practice.   That's called propagation > of error. > > It's one thing when a WG's topic area only affects people in a narrow > area of interest.   If a WG isn't going to create problems for people > outside that area of interest, a narrowly focused WG makes sense. > > But this is a topic that potentially affects everyone who writes RFCs. > Burying this discussion in a WG that most people probably don't want to > fool with, seems likely to produce two results: (1) a document that > doesn't earn community-wide consensus (but might end impairing our > ability to write RFCs anyway), and/or (2) a lot of people's time spent > arguing with people that will be attracted by this topic but who don't > have a strong interest in IETF work outside of that topic. > >> If you have better ideas about how to improve inclusivity and >> diversity in the IETF, suggest a (parallel) charter. This one will be >> judged based upon the interest expressed in it and the legitimacy of >> any objections against it -- just as with every other charter. > > Maybe it's not the sort of problem that a working group can reliably > solve?     Sometimes a working group is a way of avoiding a problem > rather than solving one. > >> OTOH if you're suggesting that the IETF introduce a metric for new >> charters that considers priority between different possible efforts, >> I'm all for it -- provided that the first item of business is >> reviewing ALL current working groups on those criteria. > > Now there's an idea that might be worth discussion.   (Just please don't > suggest a working group to review working groups. But a WG to sketch out > nonbinding review criteria... maybe.) > > Keith > > From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:12:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF7E3A1193 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:12:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=aFpUNy6v; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=HC2HVubo Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7CX4cOZ_6HSQ for ; 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Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:12:06 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 11:12:03 +1100 Cc: Fernando Gont , Mallory Knodel , Stephen Farrell , John Levine , "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7E75BBC0-3266-4980-9676-1384B7D0D565@mnot.net> References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> To: Keith Moore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:12:17 -0000 > On 14 Feb 2021, at 10:56 am, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > On 2/13/21 5:52 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 >> This issue is settled in much of tech, so we have strong cowpaths to = pave. As a result, the amount of energy that it will take to create = language guidelines is almost completely determined by how much energy = people put into trying to stop it. >>=20 >> If people have legitimate reasons as to why we shouldn't do this, = that's one thing; 'our energy is better spent elsewhere' is not one of = them. >=20 > To me this proposal looks like a DoS attack against actually = increasing inclusion in IETF. Why actually do the hard work when we = can fill in a check box and pretend we have virtue? >=20 > If we want to publish a document that talks about exclusionary = language, let's just Last Call what we have once or twice (but no more = than that) and be done with it. I don't think a WG is going to improve = the document as much as community-wide Last Calls, and IMO a WG on this = topic has a lot more potential to do harm than good. I think that would work if we didn't have a small group of people who = vocally and continually insert ever-shifting arguments against this. = Under those conditions, it's normal practice for a WG to be formed; = AD-sponsored is always tenuous, and not really built for contentious = issues. >> No where in the IETF is such an argument acceptable against a = charter; we routinely charter groups that many feel aren't worth the = effort, but I don't get to determine how people in the routing area (for = example) spend their time, as long as there's demonstrated support for = it. > We're not bound by stare decisis. We shouldn't use poor past = practice to justify poor present or future practice. That's called = propagation of error. This isn't a court, Kieth, and I'm not invoking some higher authority. = Since 'poor practice' here is subjective (and I suspect highly = contentious), labelling it as propagation of error is presumptuous on = your part.=20 But please, try the experiment: choose a random BoF and make the = argument that you don't think people should be spending their time that = way, and that you have better (yet currently vague) ideas -- see how it = goes for you and report back. > It's one thing when a WG's topic area only affects people in a narrow = area of interest. If a WG isn't going to create problems for people = outside that area of interest, a narrowly focused WG makes sense. >=20 > But this is a topic that potentially affects everyone who writes RFCs. = Burying this discussion in a WG that most people probably don't want = to fool with, seems likely to produce two results: (1) a document that = doesn't earn community-wide consensus (but might end impairing our = ability to write RFCs anyway), and/or (2) a lot of people's time spent = arguing with people that will be attracted by this topic but who don't = have a strong interest in IETF work outside of that topic. These arguments can be made about any WG -- and looking down the list of = current WGs, I see several that were successfully chartered despite = their applicability. So let's find out, shall we? -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:23:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700053A11A7 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WeZA58hBU1nU for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C76143A10D6 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C495C007D; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:23:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=YG43wtMPdyHj13tngt2kd0KHWeEgND0QE3pjNu6hP +c=; b=I0fOalXcSp4a59kVY5CnLDJDRDny+malkt3egjeddgrWYt+y7/CJMEQjO 61OE3Q6guRH/FSlifVXf5U+Yt/isxqbg/I55Ik9QFf+QMiLkujTdnimw4sB0kbJP b7KtgQ7XrYEBybBUzTvBHdCfmG6bIKOve4KzHJFmczoyC/2VwI8RR77Sao9MTMUV eN8eysnhmOOfTP9uledyBYlX+ato16HqfizBgqjhYut1KFSvGlQV3nE8Io5EUPQJ Dq6gXplJTNdyRn9bt8S/Wy7bw7vfS2LAes22aUjh/S2Kui7QEx5e4TZTzjCSzeAX +sdJqcIoFcwdBX3LAFQmyM2jPgYkQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieeggddulecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhh ucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfefgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeel leeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8ACE0108005C; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:23:25 -0500 (EST) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Fernando Gont , Mallory Knodel , Stephen Farrell , John Levine , "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <7E75BBC0-3266-4980-9676-1384B7D0D565@mnot.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <97810365-d6c5-d723-3592-dd81d3d4ce65@network-heretics.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:23:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7E75BBC0-3266-4980-9676-1384B7D0D565@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:23:29 -0000 On 2/13/21 7:12 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> To me this proposal looks like a DoS attack against actually increasing inclusion in IETF. Why actually do the hard work when we can fill in a check box and pretend we have virtue? >> >> If we want to publish a document that talks about exclusionary language, let's just Last Call what we have once or twice (but no more than that) and be done with it. I don't think a WG is going to improve the document as much as community-wide Last Calls, and IMO a WG on this topic has a lot more potential to do harm than good. > I think that would work if we didn't have a small group of people who vocally and continually insert ever-shifting arguments against this. Under those conditions, it's normal practice for a WG to be formed; AD-sponsored is always tenuous, and not really built for contentious issues. Just to clarify, I don't think the document is as contentious as the WG itself.   Or at least I think it's possible to produce a document that earns consensus within a couple of iterations, even if it doesn't say quite everything its authors might want it to say.   But there are compromises in any RFC. > This isn't a court, Kieth (Keith, please).   And I agree, it's not a court, which is why we're not bound by stare decisis. > Since 'poor practice' here is subjective (and I suspect highly contentious), labelling it as propagation of error is presumptuous on your part. I don't know of a better description of using past poor choices to justify present/future poor choices.   Propagation of error is a term that engineers hopefully understand. > But please, try the experiment: choose a random BoF and make the argument that you don't think people should be spending their time that way, and that you have better (yet currently vague) ideas -- see how it goes for you and report back. Those discussions happen in BoFs all the time.    A BoF is often the last best opportunity to try to talk the organization out of going down a particular path that seems likely to be harmful. Those arguments don't always hold sway, but sometimes they do and they're not out of order. >> It's one thing when a WG's topic area only affects people in a narrow area of interest. If a WG isn't going to create problems for people outside that area of interest, a narrowly focused WG makes sense. >> >> But this is a topic that potentially affects everyone who writes RFCs. Burying this discussion in a WG that most people probably don't want to fool with, seems likely to produce two results: (1) a document that doesn't earn community-wide consensus (but might end impairing our ability to write RFCs anyway), and/or (2) a lot of people's time spent arguing with people that will be attracted by this topic but who don't have a strong interest in IETF work outside of that topic. > These arguments can be made about any WG -- and looking down the list of current WGs, I see several that were successfully chartered despite their applicability. So let's find out, shall we? Sounds like the same propagation of error argument again.   I thin k we're looping. Keith From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:23:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA2C3A11AF for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vK4d-4cbvfA8 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D681E3A11AB for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id x1so3533573ljj.11 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+Et7oYpZOOs1X03irvcLE1hH3YQHHatHz+rvLEmBGVI=; b=NHPldz/jE4wHqTzSA+iqN7NTPBK6AqpWHSRR6RZ7aT8N8VIr4ACtzuSs48gaUZwakT T94EjHhfN8n+GM4oqAeXYOWZ+X5HxJEoo5S0QXCLiNbybMdEg7X9wRf67JPTTHvbZMAh zNIZPj1PzoqSjiJmA0/uYhQK3jaY04acNobu25zkd5utqpUFiv+K4C+anNbJUbFcz1MA ilCFbgZcuETrLeJVnnjTFxA3z36SlT8fkmjr7RKV928iMoarU7+uAKcd+uFRa1YpiLnI kVETjpMZFVgOIc0lsPXdSCa+PrpMnEXTO9x/eFe0El9uq/5oiBtEVnj9/slm+wzck3IR PWFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+Et7oYpZOOs1X03irvcLE1hH3YQHHatHz+rvLEmBGVI=; b=mipiX8SkXizR4gKnHlXnoJ53pdlnygb1ycLbOv51sMQn33eUozXRFbgFQ2XeXPje7S 3TxDZ1Q17Yt6xRWoqcViEiwUOZwumcFhkHolufnexze5dczQFQce7FKMg4Uw66cW8x4T iMVZvc1eJ9PkFcYFAIu6nwr5DH0nYirp2CBfkBgIJYKwg8+uV3HJ0i+VsE+7U+kkaStL TpeuP0Vt0C+3x9i2lL4/UzNsPgirTgnHcsi73Pz3LuIyP1wubZ1cg2DjUvCclo7GVT8i v6wPLGl7JaN99+kz1442gGaOkWDNe9yKCt33+qcdm2+rlC2RTjGpY+LRb6DVdkXiH5qT seOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530w5Slaox/fGIARYKCLeAoaiZmOQ4lfpZouwUagd8QjLSt9Cu5z RjGq5lunswTpYIvznbY41swaGqPqpRdBH9yvZw7N8w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwSVqg6JLKN2siKEkH4LES19ZPtg/h6Y5fKsoqmlQs3iw4JcM6vTBIiNIkj9Z3cEtQHyrVJcChXcvfIzTnCdgg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7f04:: with SMTP id a4mr5170357ljd.3.1613262217330; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <7E75BBC0-3266-4980-9676-1384B7D0D565@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <7E75BBC0-3266-4980-9676-1384B7D0D565@mnot.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:01 -0800 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Keith Moore , "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" , Mallory Knodel , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , John Levine , Fernando Gont , Fernando Gont , Stephen Farrell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064d5b905bb40e1b0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:23:43 -0000 --00000000000064d5b905bb40e1b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 4:12 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > > On 14 Feb 2021, at 10:56 am, Keith Moore > wrote: > > > > On 2/13/21 5:52 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > >> This issue is settled in much of tech, so we have strong cowpaths to > pave. As a result, the amount of energy that it will take to create > language guidelines is almost completely determined by how much energy > people put into trying to stop it. > >> > >> If people have legitimate reasons as to why we shouldn't do this, > that's one thing; 'our energy is better spent elsewhere' is not one of them. > > > > To me this proposal looks like a DoS attack against actually increasing > inclusion in IETF. Why actually do the hard work when we can fill in a > check box and pretend we have virtue? > > > > If we want to publish a document that talks about exclusionary language, > let's just Last Call what we have once or twice (but no more than that) and > be done with it. I don't think a WG is going to improve the document as > much as community-wide Last Calls, and IMO a WG on this topic has a lot > more potential to do harm than good. > > I think that would work if we didn't have a small group of people who > vocally and continually insert ever-shifting arguments against this. Under > those conditions, it's normal practice for a WG to be formed; AD-sponsored > is always tenuous, and not really built for contentious issues. > I concur with Mark. In addition, I note that many of the issues people are raising now werealso raised in the gendispatch discussion ( https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/6Od2aX-uiYGdYCKZqfvrOHHtY58/ ),so we're going over old ground. After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be better. Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within the meetings was to have a quick-spin WG. ... There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the terminology, but there were many concerns for how to structure such work in a WG and have it be successful. Several suggestions were made to have the IAB sponsor such work as part of their program on "Diversity, Inclusion, and Growth". The thought was that perhaps a discussion there could generate a path forward for IETF work. I think it's clear that a significant number of people [0] think it's useful to do some sort of WG to work on terminology, certainly enough to meet the threshold of interest for starting a WG. If people think that that's a bad idea, then that's certainly a reasonable objection to raise. OTOH, if people just think that there is something more important to do, then it seems to me that that shouldn't prevent WG formation. -Ekr [0] Full disclosure, I also believe we should do something here and that a WG is a reasonable approach. --00000000000064d5b905bb40e1b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 4:12 PM Mark = Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote= :


> On 14 Feb 2021, at 10:56 am, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> w= rote:
>
> On 2/13/21 5:52 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>
>> This issue is settled in much of tech, so we have strong cowpaths = to pave. As a result, the amount of energy that it will take to create lang= uage guidelines is almost completely determined by how much energy people p= ut into trying to stop it.
>>
>> If people have legitimate reasons as to why we shouldn't do th= is, that's one thing; 'our energy is better spent elsewhere' is= not one of them.
>
> To me this proposal looks like a DoS attack against actually increasin= g inclusion in IETF.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Why actually do the hard work when we can = fill in a check box and pretend we have virtue?
>
> If we want to publish a document that talks about exclusionary languag= e, let's just Last Call what we have once or twice (but no more than th= at) and be done with it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't think a WG is going to imp= rove the document as much as community-wide Last Calls, and IMO a WG on thi= s topic has a lot more potential to do harm than good.

I think that would work if we didn't have a small group of people who v= ocally and continually insert ever-shifting arguments against this. Under t= hose conditions, it's normal practice for a WG to be formed; AD-sponsor= ed is always tenuous, and not really built for contentious issues.

I concur with Mark. In addition, I note that many of= the issues people
are raising now werealso raised in the gendispatch di= scussion
(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispa= tch/6Od2aX-uiYGdYCKZqfvrOHHtY58/),so
we're going over old ground= .

=C2=A0 =C2=A0After extensive discussion, there were objections by = the end of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0first meeting to making the output of this w= ork AD-sponsored, with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a preference for a quick-spin-up WG.= In the second meeting, there
=C2=A0 =C2=A0was more ambivalence as to wh= ether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG
=C2=A0 =C2=A0would be better. Puttin= g this together, we think the rough
=C2=A0 =C2=A0consensus within the me= etings was to have a quick-spin WG.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0...

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader=C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0terminology, but there were many concerns for how to struct= ure such
=C2=A0 =C2=A0work in a WG and have it be successful. Several su= ggestions were
=C2=A0 =C2=A0made to have the IAB sponsor such work as pa= rt of their program on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Diversity, Inclusion, and Grow= th". The thought was that perhaps a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion there c= ould generate a path forward for IETF work.

I think it's clear t= hat a significant number of people [0] think it's
useful to do some = sort of WG to work on terminology, certainly enough
to meet the threshol= d of interest for starting a WG. If people think
that that's a bad i= dea, then that's certainly a reasonable objection
to raise. OTOH, if= people just think that there is something more
important to do, then it= seems to me that that shouldn't prevent
WG formation.

-Ekr

[0] Full disclosure, I also believe we should do something hereand that a WG is a reasonable approach.
--00000000000064d5b905bb40e1b0-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:23:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EFF3A11AB for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TcA8YljH0hhp for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 733393A11B0 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E881BF2E; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:23:39 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWSAPmLTBoeH; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:23:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41E2BBF2B; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:23:37 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1613262217; bh=nGjHXQuBXs09JoGrgUhCzpn3H55iRVWW73N0RXAR9m8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=v3N4FgVLYUMcP4/M9RTqStW4ET03S0gu79ibrnP0050aEtJ4C57P0tC4Q6N11eEDC 1kbB73oPxSHrqHc58TXPgMtQnKC+TbKH0hq1nz4k1d16ay4xMhwGIk3X0i/ufr06ww szWpSR4pk4h+KdJmO1cI1BCNJnNHrrxWchTCo8AQ= To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Mark Nottingham , Fernando Gont Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:23:36 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NU4o3bSwDpiFKP4DvELIsRIlwViUyrLLn" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:23:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --NU4o3bSwDpiFKP4DvELIsRIlwViUyrLLn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="CT6SZSgu20pWSQFJn0W5XAyO8HmwKz5kW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Mark Nottingham , Fernando Gont Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> --CT6SZSgu20pWSQFJn0W5XAyO8HmwKz5kW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------42B2E375F3F0A0036C02A7E7" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------42B2E375F3F0A0036C02A7E7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/02/2021 00:11, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I don't think it is really fair to the proponents of this proposal to > object on the grounds that we should do some unspecified different > thing. +1 & I'm sorry if I may have assisted/encouraged the inevitable digression:-) I do think much more broad consideration of ways to significantly improve how diverse voices get to affect IETF outcomes would be great but ought not stand in the way of this specific, though fairly modest, improvement. 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmAobYgFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+ob LhAAu1Zhlv2V803LG409Kp1S6wL1Fq6TlDlLPKd9XGW7xmXg/m5mz9VTP009pO9OymAFTw8aemWx +vxdAdNipxzPZaEesdFtLUBqHW7pcaCgpyPMDRsx5aQsZF0rBwTABtQsEUHexPsQEYCrc7xEUexn bsF2fWu3prF3lJYrZMkNcvdP39WJULVXFDUtuv5qLevjTZmSZH2HjQ+Vjwt3DOL/oe1fSxCLAt04 IihXMeBxCvqgYeA4+etp4CWDKmtU4dZtYxbH1MykLkAfPtkQLdx0IO1j435gsVxprlO8V1X4sywl zVLJFcfGNMB2wRFzJ9mOWXLscGxnxjnQBAS434Tjnr8HFZyWF01Cb5/nAQX+dGKNe6EXLA4hjPlr UETo4mIOEyXNDMpbTx7qxnE359rBe3kt8iGZ6pDR7XSf7UdffTAtxPXAwyP/GIDfxN2gTrvaFSoZ OR8ufElDI6i3ZMBHJSH3nXv9fNSBTMWCHEgP9XL7E9kILlX26HdOcgJaMHWAE7y2WkDFjYmopoIV By8hWSrYP04Wjb4CQ0jL/2gUo6Q4P5EzKYoJ1Lv+dGslvQ4gIT7pNTsBEdI7am9x8vStm9ERqPl/ EzgkitXlecRrbbxAUcA/ml3IrTniSaf2eqzhCu+caPr8zeYN4/LQN4NHHa19ylgmZbAG8EcyXPJL Sew= =y+9V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NU4o3bSwDpiFKP4DvELIsRIlwViUyrLLn-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:23:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C9A3A11DB for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BJzufJ0iyIkl for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 556753A11B7 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOH0AYCXT3LA6@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:23:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOH00H3GT1RMX@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:22:40 -0800 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:23:43 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210212b] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:23:48 -0000 On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: > On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote: > [...] >> >>    step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave" >>    step 2: ??? >>    step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF >> >> So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from >> step 1 to >> step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter. > > Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if > the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group should > study what's the high-order bit to get there?   That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue otherwise? > This seems like arguing the other way around: "Tell me how inclusive > language helps diversity and inclusiveness such that we can pursue it".   No, what I'm doing is asking people who are arguing that language can be "exclusive" to show their reasoning. What is the result of using "exclusive" language in an RFC? Well, an IETF that is not diverse and inclusive. I just want to see how that works.   We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How does replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at the IETF?   regards,   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:29:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D86D3A11C7 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:29:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fzh1xxiqAJAl for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB6453A11C3 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454225C0087 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:29:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:29:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=zlqdada1+iy5uGXHiw0gTJRHllO0DDviU3mXZ5hWB 8E=; b=URkgJ8673IG799Oovk2ld+jcJUiCDuxYej0nczPGGg6MF1/D7cfFyafIX qimRuBbDpBNea5YVDrhQsDTeGqh4XuQeaDfs/4188X1eGsw56RbbG+0h5vx221vb +VfdccO4itU6KbF1TORio+PkJ8lPHSpsbeP+HsBhL0Y3APRSnw7FUFxYkYpfhegv iWtkSp7fwZt/K2fVzK48D8A5Eua5WhmWVrJzcVpPCK6YyZGqjHj6d9oyiEDSrydy vFodx2WPG+QB9/TFq5KJmgefpmhslnmCqwhCCDc+kUvEbBPM1usTTUI3dM6C1Bn/ qU5qR44C07408W+edyzjSy9PpcAtQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieeggddvudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgf efgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 446D3108005C for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:29:51 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:29:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:29:54 -0000 On 2/13/21 7:11 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > What I am wondering is if any of the folks who are concerned abut > issues outside of language selection can draft a charter.  Then we, > and the IETF, can decide (assuming we agree on the value of the > proposal) if the two charters should be combined, if we should have > two working groups, or if we should have only one (and which.) > > I don't think it is really fair to the proponents of this proposal to > object on the grounds that we should do some unspecified different thing. It is if doing one of these things takes up energy that would otherwise be used to address the broader problem. But unlike publishing a document, diversity and inclusion isn't a check-off item.   It's not a problem that you can solve once and move on.   It's something that has to be built into community values and maintained indefinitely by the whole community (or most of it).   Simply publishing yet another RFC won't do that.     So we can't rely on our habits or familiar processes, we have to work through out to do it and make it part of our normal discussions. There used to be a lot of this value in IETF culture, and I think there's still some left.   How do we revive and expand it? Keith From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:31:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFFE3A11CC for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:31:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=pbTsvM/s; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=PDh6M5xo Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f84pEmi7QeC6 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:31:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82CA93A11CB for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:31:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08DE5C006D; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:31:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:31:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=5 uf2g5OW/Cc2noFEBILyT2ees+LTzykwdpDER9I1o4Q=; b=pbTsvM/sAb56IIJ+Y R8DnLuYRxjE/UzK5l5tCThtyN87y87vIy0IFWW9RCOYQF0vUTiKL3mB348elIbbw Uaunb9zpP5/c1qa0CPYL1DIlEQQPzFBxJf2xENJC8AkZdC+LiQUD3t6UDSQfixuj OTutXaCqVowpeR9DKBss3pJdPkQWnEjl7AqojHx3G3Fahb977IUdTmsMEogUhYAb onAmR2p5YfNxOLa4uBib81Txs/xnisZTY7lPtMQK3wnovtXuWCUz2qe9tRuF9MqT dAMaONU+xo78sE/4X2FwmFOsGAgXaU9Mo8gCTi0fCWEAlX+m25t1A9WtNstTsgs8 A/Vvw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=5uf2g5OW/Cc2noFEBILyT2ees+LTzykwdpDER9I1o 4Q=; b=PDh6M5xoLoXZmaPTLWPh/hqfjq9z1hUdz+BkOwFTl7wfKx6CIUrt8f+6/ QVGYAhqhMEf2rnCHfKv67nRFfs/FZuLt5aXrV25bT2DgfVZ5TIIScjKVSRtKm4Rr SiIa6D6XhI2LG8R93H9a0iYqkNH7g4BgASIWI8qRLayv48TdZRRfXa8lzDWBZzXm lqtTO1hOQwt36r20WdbBBg7Q/RM3u8Hndni3dSYEEstGNEQGeFsGfvNmxKSAYqfN X49NydevHD7xjGwEx05Xg3GCO8YEzyVRJ4+i5lIh7orjmEl21HpZ7u+j/Gkuo0VW XcRdYvJmffD5l6vM0iVr6oPeZl9cw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieeggddvudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepkeduvdeljeegtefhveekhfdtveekleevkeefgeeludeihfdugedvieeuffdttdfh necuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrd dujedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgr ihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5D2A524005B; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:31:27 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <97810365-d6c5-d723-3592-dd81d3d4ce65@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 11:31:25 +1100 Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <89F7DFAD-C92A-4CF6-9F9F-7A6997536AA5@mnot.net> References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <7E75BBC0-3266-4980-9676-1384B7D0D565@mnot.net> <97810365-d6c5-d723-3592-dd81d3d4ce65@network-heretics.com> To: Keith Moore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:31:32 -0000 > On 14 Feb 2021, at 11:23 am, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > On 2/13/21 7:12 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 >>> To me this proposal looks like a DoS attack against actually = increasing inclusion in IETF. Why actually do the hard work when we = can fill in a check box and pretend we have virtue? >>>=20 >>> If we want to publish a document that talks about exclusionary = language, let's just Last Call what we have once or twice (but no more = than that) and be done with it. I don't think a WG is going to improve = the document as much as community-wide Last Calls, and IMO a WG on this = topic has a lot more potential to do harm than good. >> I think that would work if we didn't have a small group of people who = vocally and continually insert ever-shifting arguments against this. = Under those conditions, it's normal practice for a WG to be formed; = AD-sponsored is always tenuous, and not really built for contentious = issues. > Just to clarify, I don't think the document is as contentious as the = WG itself. Or at least I think it's possible to produce a document = that earns consensus within a couple of iterations, even if it doesn't = say quite everything its authors might want it to say. But there are = compromises in any RFC. >> This isn't a court, Kieth > (Keith, please). =20 Apologies. > And I agree, it's not a court, which is why we're not bound by stare = decisis. >> Since 'poor practice' here is subjective (and I suspect highly = contentious), labelling it as propagation of error is presumptuous on = your part. > I don't know of a better description of using past poor choices to = justify present/future poor choices. Propagation of error is a term = that engineers hopefully understand. >> But please, try the experiment: choose a random BoF and make the = argument that you don't think people should be spending their time that = way, and that you have better (yet currently vague) ideas -- see how it = goes for you and report back. >=20 > Those discussions happen in BoFs all the time. A BoF is often the = last best opportunity to try to talk the organization out of going down = a particular path that seems likely to be harmful. Those arguments don't = always hold sway, but sometimes they do and they're not out of order. >=20 >>> It's one thing when a WG's topic area only affects people in a = narrow area of interest. If a WG isn't going to create problems for = people outside that area of interest, a narrowly focused WG makes sense. >>>=20 >>> But this is a topic that potentially affects everyone who writes = RFCs. Burying this discussion in a WG that most people probably don't = want to fool with, seems likely to produce two results: (1) a document = that doesn't earn community-wide consensus (but might end impairing our = ability to write RFCs anyway), and/or (2) a lot of people's time spent = arguing with people that will be attracted by this topic but who don't = have a strong interest in IETF work outside of that topic. >> These arguments can be made about any WG -- and looking down the list = of current WGs, I see several that were successfully chartered despite = their applicability. So let's find out, shall we? >=20 > Sounds like the same propagation of error argument again. I thin k = we're looping. >=20 > Keith >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:45:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A64553A11E5 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:45:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.25, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hQVhLr2SuhSD for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B8D83A11E2 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.34) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:45:35 -0000 PiAgICAgICBXZSBoYXZlIHNwZWNpZmljYWxseSB0YXJnZXRlZCB0aGUgd29yZHMgIm1hc3RlciIg YW5kICJzbGF2ZSIuIEhvdyBkb2VzDQogICAgcmVwbGFjaW5nIHRob3NlIHdvcmRzIHdpdGggb3Ro ZXJzIGFmZmVjdCBkaXZlcnNpdHkgYW5kIGluY2x1c2lvbiBhdCB0aGUgDQogICAgSUVURj8NCg0K V2hhdCBraW5kIG9mIG1ldHJpYyBkbyB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBzZWUsIERhbj8gIFlvdSB3YW50IHNv bWV0aGluZyBsaWtlICJ3ZSBnb3QgMTAlIG1vcmUgaGlzdG9yaWNhbGx5IHN1Ymp1Z2F0ZWQgbWlu b3JpdGllcyBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW5nIG5vdyIgPyAgSWYgbm90IHRoYXQsIHdoYXQ/DQoNCkFzIE1h cmMgcG9pbnRlZCBvdXQsIHRoZSBlbnRpcmUgdGVjaCBpbmR1c3RyeSBpcyBtb3ZpbmcgdGhpcyB3 YXksIHNvbWUgZnVydGhlciBhbG9uZyAob3IgZmFzdGVyKSB0aGFuIG90aGVycy4gRXZlbiBpZiB5 b3UgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyBpcyBqdXN0IHBlcmZvcm1hdGl2ZSAodGhlIGluY2x1c2lvbmFyeSB2ZXJz aW9uIG9mICJzZWN1cml0eSB0aGVhdGVyIiBpZiB5b3Ugd2lsbCksIHdoYXQgZG9lcyBpdCBzYXkg YWJvdXQgdGhlIElFVEYgaWYgd2UgYXJlIG5vdCBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoYXQgaW5kdXN0cnktd2lkZSBt b3ZlPw0KDQoNCg== From nobody Sat Feb 13 16:47:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F593A122D for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:47:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I2JYfaLpzNLx for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE5193A13B5 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse90.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.90] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx134.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lB5Yy-0005nt-MQ for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:47:03 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DdT8L1JY2zL65 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.12] (helo=xmail02.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lB5Yw-0007Tv-1j for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:46:58 -0800 Received: (qmail 6065 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2021 00:46:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.106]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.146]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail02.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 14 Feb 2021 00:46:56 -0000 To: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:46:56 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------101E6B1215EBF78B3FDA8858" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.90 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.11) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT8fvvSMxYDIYoTUlrfdx/fsPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiquwR2 aop815D3G5/2jMZ31Rbpf+lsdO0xOr/kv6UrD/K0SxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVdh3YTLaUf1T/vJjBHMeQhZotTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WWLIlhV wP2HQYvX8wxRXZtkkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkgOaZXY1D 3Tei6L4lTC3Kzv6blagzf/fouhj8KehojfmLb5mum9xAXSaS3KKPtTZXWZip9+GhedmPokL8D3vh veYLhIg92+wH02ylfDiSQ0sYFBl6VX84fRovDGikEvLu7vlxwPg5iSJU22qtYbc2zIvhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DCinc6hm4Yij/9/ori/8mFXv +3rvmHdrVKByzqxXUSO6iOcNRZvh4GNcqPLg8L6AKyXff8kj6gUf0g36VNvpM6BpY+esKrJvcnNx Lc87a6mTyaxfFQ1w34FqYc4W3dbMgAFVnde1UJCYLdcfX0Bx8d3wVfoL4qrk32h+8TUXcWjIrEy8 kFJLqq4bLnKmuYuL1oYor5SdynmA3L797+4N6MxBLNdYpdiez3XFrSovXe8jPAlbDjazCbhs7qBp ykynMkpi2lOq6+x0YKX77jMV3Q4dXMKsrHjCqH3bO4Vgo36lPatRkSuxMqynhAgxXYf9hc5cElVI v8mCHJmvLaFcYEAs0ueeSQv3iRNCdtD1uwyAifnL+9wgoTj4ygNPw1XfNxCNJEQIZ9k9IRQJCLK0 fpRdB/fjRpXoVzZ+xLJY1gUSMMhkxyAKDRV/o3FuwxpnROdjXZBNOJeqVzGgrKtR6HA= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:47:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------101E6B1215EBF78B3FDA8858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/13/2021 4:23 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: > > On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >> [...] >>> >>>    step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave" >>>    step 2: ??? >>>    step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF >>> >>> So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from >>> step 1 to >>> step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter. >> >> Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if >> the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group >> should study what's the high-order bit to get there? > >   That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue > otherwise? > >> This seems like arguing the other way around: "Tell me how inclusive >> language helps diversity and inclusiveness such that we can pursue it". > >   No, what I'm doing is asking people who are arguing that language > can be > "exclusive" to show their reasoning. What is the result of using > "exclusive" > language in an RFC? Well, an IETF that is not diverse and inclusive. I > just > want to see how that works. > >   We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How does > replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at > the IETF? Two reasons. First, the practice of slavery is now generally considered abhorrent. Yes, it was widely practiced through history, from the bronze age all the way to the XIXth century, with a large diversity of perpetrators and targets. Mostly, that has ceased, but history and legacy remains. A large part of the IETF activity happens in the US, and a significant fraction of the US population resent any kind of glorification of the past practices that enslaved their ancestors. So there is that, there definitely are people who are not happy about the imagery that such language evokes. Then, there is a broken glass effect. The relation between the legacy of slavery and the master-slave vocabulary has been exposed. Think of that as glass that was broken. Insisting on not replacing this vocabulary is not neutral. It amounts to repairing the broken glass and insisting on its continuous usage. That becomes an affirmative statement for dismissing any concerns about the legacy of slavery. That's definitely not the kind of statement that I would like to hear from the IETF. Let's charter this working group and be done with it. -- Christian Huitema --------------101E6B1215EBF78B3FDA8858 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 2/13/2021 4:23 PM, Dan Harkins wrote:


On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote:
On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote:
[...]

   step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave"
   step 2: ???
   step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF

So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from step 1 to
step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter.

Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group should study what's the high-order bit to get there?

  That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue otherwise?

This seems like arguing the other way around: "Tell me how inclusive language helps diversity and inclusiveness such that we can pursue it".

  No, what I'm doing is asking people who are arguing that language can be
"exclusive" to show their reasoning. What is the result of using "exclusive"
language in an RFC? Well, an IETF that is not diverse and inclusive. I just
want to see how that works.

  We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How does
replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at the IETF?

Two reasons. First, the practice of slavery is now generally considered abhorrent. Yes, it was widely practiced through history, from the bronze age all the way to the XIXth century, with a large diversity of perpetrators and targets. Mostly, that has ceased, but history and legacy remains. A large part of the IETF activity happens in the US, and a significant fraction of the US population resent any kind of glorification of the past practices that enslaved their ancestors. So there is that, there definitely are people who are not happy about the imagery that such language evokes.

Then, there is a broken glass effect. The relation between the legacy of slavery and the master-slave vocabulary has been exposed. Think of that as glass that was broken. Insisting on not replacing this vocabulary is not neutral. It amounts to repairing the broken glass and insisting on its continuous usage. That becomes an affirmative statement for dismissing any concerns about the legacy of slavery. That's definitely not the kind of statement that I would like to hear from the IETF.

Let's charter this working group and be done with it.

-- Christian Huitema


--------------101E6B1215EBF78B3FDA8858-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 17:53:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A001C3A12B5 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:53:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4GEN6VQzB4L for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98A203A12A7 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOH0AYEQX9QA6@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:53:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOH00H7EX7WMX@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:52:44 -0800 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:53:48 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <2c6714b9-b2b6-8852-8c53-ec24594f4194@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_2kiNzsXYhGOlNk0WdkgIrg)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210212b] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:53:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_2kiNzsXYhGOlNk0WdkgIrg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT On 2/13/21 4:46 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: > > On 2/13/2021 4:23 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: > >> >> On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >>> On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> [...] >>>> >>>>    step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave" >>>>    step 2: ??? >>>>    step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF >>>> >>>> So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from >>>> step 1 to >>>> step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter. >>> >>> Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if >>> the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group >>> should study what's the high-order bit to get there? >> >>   That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue >> otherwise? >> >>> This seems like arguing the other way around: "Tell me how inclusive >>> language helps diversity and inclusiveness such that we can pursue it". >> >>   No, what I'm doing is asking people who are arguing that language >> can be >> "exclusive" to show their reasoning. What is the result of using >> "exclusive" >> language in an RFC? Well, an IETF that is not diverse and inclusive. >> I just >> want to see how that works. >> >>   We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How does >> replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at >> the IETF? > > Two reasons. First, the practice of slavery is now generally > considered abhorrent. Yes, it was widely practiced through history, > from the bronze age all the way to the XIXth century, with a large > diversity of perpetrators and targets. >   Actually the last of Europe's slave markets closed in the early 20th century. And Arabia's slave markets continued until the early 1960s. > Mostly, that has ceased, but history and legacy remains. A large part > of the IETF activity happens in the US, and a significant fraction of > the US population resent any kind of glorification of the past > practices that enslaved their ancestors. So there is that, there > definitely are people who are not happy about the imagery that such > language evokes. >   You are claiming that using "master" and "slave" in a technical description is some kind of glorification of the past practice of human bondage? I'm sorry but that makes no sense. And it's kind of offensive because you're saying that anyone who has used those terms glorifies human bondage. Quite a blanket statement of slander.   Why does the US get a special consideration for claiming the mantle of resentment? The etymology of the word is from "Slav". One would think that if anyone would be in the front of the line for resenting the use of these terms in technical documents it would be Slavic people, mostly from the Balkans. Yet they're not. The front of the line is loud, affluent, white, academics from the US that are declaring their primary standing. And you're saying that these people that have nothing to do with slavery or its legacy in any part of the world are not happy about the imagery that is evoked! OK, so what?   If use of the word equates to glorification of past practices that enslaved people's ancestors then how do you feel about a given name Abdallah, the "slave of allah" or a family name of "Abdalkadir", the "slave of the most powerful"? Shall we politely, yet firmly, tell people with these names that they should refrain from attending IETFs due to the fact that people are not happy with the imagery that their name evokes? I certainly hope not but that seems to be where you're headed. > Then, there is a broken glass effect. The relation between the legacy > of slavery and the master-slave vocabulary has been exposed. Think of > that as glass that was broken. Insisting on not replacing this > vocabulary is not neutral. It amounts to repairing the broken glass > and insisting on its continuous usage. That becomes an affirmative > statement for dismissing any concerns about the legacy of slavery. > That's definitely not the kind of statement that I would like to hear > from the IETF. >   Can you explain this exposure? What's the relationship? And are you able to describe the elusive "step 2" that I referred to above? That is, how does stopping the use of these words make the IETF more inclusive and diverse?   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_2kiNzsXYhGOlNk0WdkgIrg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
On 2/13/21 4:46 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:

On 2/13/2021 4:23 PM, Dan Harkins wrote:


On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote:
On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote:
[...]

   step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave"
   step 2: ???
   step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF

So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from step 1 to
step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter.

Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group should study what's the high-order bit to get there?

  That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue otherwise?

This seems like arguing the other way around: "Tell me how inclusive language helps diversity and inclusiveness such that we can pursue it".

  No, what I'm doing is asking people who are arguing that language can be
"exclusive" to show their reasoning. What is the result of using "exclusive"
language in an RFC? Well, an IETF that is not diverse and inclusive. I just
want to see how that works.

  We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How does
replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at the IETF?

Two reasons. First, the practice of slavery is now generally considered abhorrent. Yes, it was widely practiced through history, from the bronze age all the way to the XIXth century, with a large diversity of perpetrators and targets.


  Actually the last of Europe's slave markets closed in the early 20th
century. And Arabia's slave markets continued until the early 1960s.

Mostly, that has ceased, but history and legacy remains. A large part of the IETF activity happens in the US, and a significant fraction of the US population resent any kind of glorification of the past practices that enslaved their ancestors. So there is that, there definitely are people who are not happy about the imagery that such language evokes.

 
  You are claiming that using "master" and "slave" in a technical description
is some kind of glorification of the past practice of human bondage? I'm sorry
but that makes no sense. And it's kind of offensive because you're saying
that anyone who has used those terms glorifies human bondage. Quite a blanket
statement of slander.

  Why does the US get a special consideration for claiming the mantle of
resentment? The etymology of the word is from "Slav". One would think that if
anyone would be in the front of the line for resenting the use of these terms
in technical documents it would be Slavic people, mostly from the Balkans. Yet
they're not. The front of the line is loud, affluent, white, academics from the
US that are declaring their primary standing. And you're saying that these
people that have nothing to do with slavery or its legacy in any part of the
world are not happy about the imagery that is evoked! OK, so what?

  If use of the word equates to glorification of past practices that enslaved
people's ancestors then how do you feel about a given name Abdallah, the "slave
of allah" or a family name of "Abdalkadir", the "slave of the most powerful"?
Shall we politely, yet firmly, tell people with these names that they should
refrain from attending IETFs due to the fact that people are not happy with the
imagery that their name evokes? I certainly hope not but that seems to be where
you're headed.

Then, there is a broken glass effect. The relation between the legacy of slavery and the master-slave vocabulary has been exposed. Think of that as glass that was broken. Insisting on not replacing this vocabulary is not neutral. It amounts to repairing the broken glass and insisting on its continuous usage. That becomes an affirmative statement for dismissing any concerns about the legacy of slavery. That's definitely not the kind of statement that I would like to hear from the IETF.

 
  Can you explain this exposure? What's the relationship? And are you able to
describe the elusive "step 2" that I referred to above? That is, how does
stopping the use of these words make the IETF more inclusive and diverse?

  Dan.
-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_2kiNzsXYhGOlNk0WdkgIrg)-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 18:09:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395543A1292 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:09:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id umN9G-syetWl for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FA183A12D1 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOH0AYFGXZNA6@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:09:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOH00MGLXXST0@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:08:17 -0800 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:09:20 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <368DD3CF-F704-4D4C-B0F8-4C0F07446D6A@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <368DD3CF-F704-4D4C-B0F8-4C0F07446D6A@akamai.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210212b] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 02:09:25 -0000 On 2/13/21 4:45 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How does > replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at the > IETF? > > What kind of metric do you want to see, Dan? You want something like "we got 10% more historically subjugated minorities participating now" ? If not that, what?   That would be great but I think that's a bit too much to ask. I would like there to be some connection between refraining from saying, say, "master key" in a security RFC and more inclusion and diversity in the IETF. Just an explanation of how the connection works, not a numerical benefit per excluded word. There's a whole bunch of hand waving right now. We are told that diversity and inclusion is a good thing and that we therefore need to stop saying "master key". Wait, what? How does that work? > As Marc pointed out, the entire tech industry is moving this way, some further along (or faster) than others. Even if you think this is just performative (the inclusionary version of "security theater" if you will), what does it say about the IETF if we are not part of that industry-wide move?   Uhm... that we're not lemmings and that we are rational? I mean, what you're saying is that there is this industry wide move to do something for which there is no evidence it has any practical effect? I refer to to my sig below.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Sat Feb 13 18:33:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8850C3A131F for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:33:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lkYsaDsXYe14 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BEBE3A131D for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse41.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.41] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx136.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lB7E4-000uBp-U1 for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 03:33:36 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DdWWD5zfcz29yM for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.16] (helo=xmail06.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lB7E0-0006SZ-NS for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:33:28 -0800 Received: (qmail 23004 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2021 02:33:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.106]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.146]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail06.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 14 Feb 2021 02:33:27 -0000 To: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <2c6714b9-b2b6-8852-8c53-ec24594f4194@lounge.org> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: <5ed1961d-93c6-74ef-4fbc-e06e7bf269e2@huitema.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:33:27 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2c6714b9-b2b6-8852-8c53-ec24594f4194@lounge.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------155006ED864A53BF9AB087F3" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.41 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiqu5Jm rQtsDjVbbrJuWV2M+6b2Is6/EtVcDwMurFp/hJfUSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVdh3YTLaUf1T/vJjBHMeQhZotTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WUhy/LP m2rFgOGYwKKX1POmkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkgOaZXY1D 3Tei6L4lTC3Kzv6blagzf/fouhj8KehojfmLb5mum9xAXSaS3KKPtTZXWZip9+GhedmPokL8D3vh veYLhIg92+wH02ylfDiSQ0sYFBl6VX84fRovDGikEvLu7vlxwPg5iSJU22qtYbc2zIvhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DCinc6hm4Yij/9/ori/8mFXt Xbhn+QJvOtYM6hvrMFBgCRPr+cjTIQio9BLSXYMGyZe1QNuNgbVWp1ROM8P5BohpY+esKrJvcnNx Lc87a6mTyaxfFQ1w34FqYc4W3dbMgAFVnde1UJCYLdcfX0Bx8d1jJhhDVWbOY0at+Sp/Evw1rEy8 kFJLqq4bLnKmuYuL1rVr61XMTP2oIAf6d43XR41kSUOabuz7C/RiZJwhnCK3PAlbDjazCbhs7qBp ykynMkpi2lOq6+x0YKX77jMV3Q4Xm+W9QssyXazYaq6FQrcaPatRkSuxMqynhAgxXYf9hc5cElVI v8mCHJmvLaFcYEAs0ueeSQv3iRNCdtD1uwyAifnL+9wgoTj4ygNPw1XfNxCNJEQIZ9k9IRQJCLK0 fpRdB/fjRpXoVzZ+xLJY1gUSMMhkxyAKDRV/o3FuwxpnROdjXZBNOJeqVzGgrKtR6HA= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 02:33:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------155006ED864A53BF9AB087F3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/13/2021 5:53 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: > > On 2/13/21 4:46 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: >> >> On 2/13/2021 4:23 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: >> >>> >>> On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >>>> On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>>    step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave" >>>>>    step 2: ??? >>>>>    step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF >>>>> >>>>> So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from >>>>> step 1 to >>>>> step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter. >>>> >>>> Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, >>>> if the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group >>>> should study what's the high-order bit to get there? >>> >>>   That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue >>> otherwise? >>> >>>> This seems like arguing the other way around: "Tell me how >>>> inclusive language helps diversity and inclusiveness such that we >>>> can pursue it". >>> >>>   No, what I'm doing is asking people who are arguing that language >>> can be >>> "exclusive" to show their reasoning. What is the result of using >>> "exclusive" >>> language in an RFC? Well, an IETF that is not diverse and inclusive. >>> I just >>> want to see how that works. >>> >>>   We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How >>> does >>> replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at >>> the IETF? >> >> Two reasons. First, the practice of slavery is now generally >> considered abhorrent. Yes, it was widely practiced through history, >> from the bronze age all the way to the XIXth century, with a large >> diversity of perpetrators and targets. >> > >   Actually the last of Europe's slave markets closed in the early 20th > century. And Arabia's slave markets continued until the early 1960s. > >> Mostly, that has ceased, but history and legacy remains. A large part >> of the IETF activity happens in the US, and a significant fraction of >> the US population resent any kind of glorification of the past >> practices that enslaved their ancestors. So there is that, there >> definitely are people who are not happy about the imagery that such >> language evokes. >> > >   You are claiming that using "master" and "slave" in a technical > description > is some kind of glorification of the past practice of human bondage? > I'm sorry > but that makes no sense. And it's kind of offensive because you're saying > that anyone who has used those terms glorifies human bondage. Quite a > blanket > statement of slander. Dan, this kind of discussions are more fun in a bar than via e-mail. If you read my message again, I never asserted that using "master" and "slave" in a technical description was some kind of glorification of the practice of human bondage. In the past, mostly it was not. It is more one of those things that a majority of people does without thinking about it. Yet a minority of people in attendance don't like it one bit. However, we are not in the past anymore. > >> Then, there is a broken glass effect. The relation between the legacy >> of slavery and the master-slave vocabulary has been exposed. Think of >> that as glass that was broken. Insisting on not replacing this >> vocabulary is not neutral. It amounts to repairing the broken glass >> and insisting on its continuous usage. That becomes an affirmative >> statement for dismissing any concerns about the legacy of slavery. >> That's definitely not the kind of statement that I would like to hear >> from the IETF. >> > >   Can you explain this exposure? What's the relationship? And are you > able to > describe the elusive "step 2" that I referred to above? That is, how does > stopping the use of these words make the IETF more inclusive and diverse? As I said, we are not in the past anymore. In the present, actively refusing to discard old-fashion language is not a neutral stance. It is an active statement. At best, it could be interpreted as a statement that the IETF dislike the activists who are pushing for change. At worse, it will be interpreted as a statement that yes, the IETF considers slavery a benign activity, so prevalent in the past that there is no possible harm in continued usage of such imagery. Which is more or less the same point that Mark has been making. Standing out from the whole industry would not be a passive stance. It would be actively harmful for the IETF. -- Christian Huitema --------------155006ED864A53BF9AB087F3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 2/13/2021 5:53 PM, Dan Harkins wrote:

On 2/13/21 4:46 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:

On 2/13/2021 4:23 PM, Dan Harkins wrote:


On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote:
On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote:
[...]

   step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave"
   step 2: ???
   step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF

So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from step 1 to
step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter.

Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group should study what's the high-order bit to get there?

  That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue otherwise?

This seems like arguing the other way around: "Tell me how inclusive language helps diversity and inclusiveness such that we can pursue it".

  No, what I'm doing is asking people who are arguing that language can be
"exclusive" to show their reasoning. What is the result of using "exclusive"
language in an RFC? Well, an IETF that is not diverse and inclusive. I just
want to see how that works.

  We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How does
replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at the IETF?

Two reasons. First, the practice of slavery is now generally considered abhorrent. Yes, it was widely practiced through history, from the bronze age all the way to the XIXth century, with a large diversity of perpetrators and targets.


  Actually the last of Europe's slave markets closed in the early 20th
century. And Arabia's slave markets continued until the early 1960s.

Mostly, that has ceased, but history and legacy remains. A large part of the IETF activity happens in the US, and a significant fraction of the US population resent any kind of glorification of the past practices that enslaved their ancestors. So there is that, there definitely are people who are not happy about the imagery that such language evokes.

 
  You are claiming that using "master" and "slave" in a technical description
is some kind of glorification of the past practice of human bondage? I'm sorry
but that makes no sense. And it's kind of offensive because you're saying
that anyone who has used those terms glorifies human bondage. Quite a blanket
statement of slander.

Dan, this kind of discussions are more fun in a bar than via e-mail. If you read my message again, I never asserted that using "master" and "slave" in a technical description
was some kind of glorification of the practice of human bondage. In the past, mostly it was not. It is more one of those things that a majority of people does without thinking about it. Yet a minority of people in attendance don't like it one bit. However, we are not in the past anymore.

Then, there is a broken glass effect. The relation between the legacy of slavery and the master-slave vocabulary has been exposed. Think of that as glass that was broken. Insisting on not replacing this vocabulary is not neutral. It amounts to repairing the broken glass and insisting on its continuous usage. That becomes an affirmative statement for dismissing any concerns about the legacy of slavery. That's definitely not the kind of statement that I would like to hear from the IETF.

 
  Can you explain this exposure? What's the relationship? And are you able to
describe the elusive "step 2" that I referred to above? That is, how does
stopping the use of these words make the IETF more inclusive and diverse?

As I said, we are not in the past anymore. In the present, actively refusing to discard old-fashion language is not a neutral stance. It is an active statement. At best, it could be interpreted as a statement that the IETF dislike the activists who are pushing for change. At worse, it will be interpreted as a statement that yes, the IETF considers slavery a benign activity, so prevalent in the past that there is no possible harm in continued usage of such imagery.

Which is more or less the same point that Mark has been making. Standing out from the whole industry would not be a passive stance. It would be actively harmful for the IETF.

-- Christian Huitema



--------------155006ED864A53BF9AB087F3-- From nobody Sat Feb 13 19:44:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDFFC3A13BE for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:44:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.05 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.05 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=lg21qELq; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=UJbAEEPs Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6LEMv2pXxcKM for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9B7B3A1397 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 19:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20281 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2021 03:43:56 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=4f36.60289c7c.k2102; bh=ZRknJOxy9FOqIDWL1XrtJ6LhYzyRJm9hOr5+kduJJ30=; b=lg21qELqxudXZhvgfz+YPhpD7BtmUjkXivzUYbCchU0Hy0sh56JeIQOQjYiZwnCF8pF8gQSKmb2w51o0EevEMhwqank8nUbPztB2ky/PqzD55z3gSnQkp8Mb+DqaIKQS60OanybLIxXxeO9DNGAfpYFRJBsWXc8jDv0N8PweytPI4khwqtPgVxdFegkEEyaQutqpKw7hHUzinZcv0CU8sH0KtxwwLM+GQi6JJuAZL8BtndwT3U5V6swRHSbQj34JiwfHyrL0aL22qpXHEbWPMPFwapEMCNPrLZ9ymNH74GHeNMJbR3aJjIesrthlUxuFostgsJ4oEX7s/eoeN8lW2g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=4f36.60289c7c.k2102; bh=ZRknJOxy9FOqIDWL1XrtJ6LhYzyRJm9hOr5+kduJJ30=; b=UJbAEEPspOVQG3Xo6W9T8jkrCIHMa5ay+zK2LFWCXp2vgpM8/HOWVCvp13EkDGTcYFk0uPafIhW+bFih5bjE/36nuy1K06kJubgzcALt3aYQkDQsdcPyUGduPj1sutNOv3t2Nz8cP+fPIrS8fmh7I47QaRazX9R7SPwDKEP/GMduylYehzroE0gHvGpjTd8Ul+f8+SOkoxPmzGRWz0lqliydw5FGYCpFa0bgCEgjxfym1sZWMDtHwCtcqFy9nblImYNjWsZmHlVGO0h260/R337gNwFqgO34fcACAuNCB8QQ//7kFw3wUTrehNVBPRq6GCCFXaht2R3/a3QtY5T7mg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 14 Feb 2021 03:43:55 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9E28B6DEC4D8; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 22:43:54 -0500 (EST) Date: 13 Feb 2021 22:43:54 -0500 Message-Id: <20210214034355.9E28B6DEC4D8@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: huitema@huitema.net In-Reply-To: <5ed1961d-93c6-74ef-4fbc-e06e7bf269e2@huitema.net> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 03:44:02 -0000 In article <5ed1961d-93c6-74ef-4fbc-e06e7bf269e2@huitema.net> you write: >As I said, we are not in the past anymore. In the present, actively >refusing to discard old-fashion language is not a neutral stance. It is >an active statement. At best, it could be interpreted as a statement >that the IETF dislike the activists who are pushing for change. At >worse, it will be interpreted as a statement that yes, the IETF >considers slavery a benign activity, so prevalent in the past that there >is no possible harm in continued usage of such imagery. > >Which is more or less the same point that Mark has been making. Standing >out from the whole industry would not be a passive stance. It would be >actively harmful for the IETF. I think we're making progress here, since we agree this is about virtue signalling. That's not necessarily bad, for the reasons you and Mark described. I don't think it would be hard for us to avoid master/slave and blacklist (because of its ugly political history), but I hope we also agree that it has essentially nothing to do with addressing the IETF's longstanding problems of involving and retaining people outside the narrow ethnic and cultural groups you and I and most other IETFers come from. R's, John From nobody Sat Feb 13 20:26:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2553A142D for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:26:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GLWyZKGDeK1q for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BDD23A142C for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF6ED280204; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:26:33 +0000 (UTC) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Mallory Knodel , Stephen Farrell , John Levine , "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont , Keith Moore References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <5e8001da-7acf-4677-7352-954b23122c79@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:25:48 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:26:49 -0000 Mark, The argument that some of us have made is that if the goal of the effort is improve inclusiveness and foster diversity, then *that* should be the charter of the working group. I could well be the case that language is considered important and it is the first product of the WG. But the ultimate goal is to foster diversity and improve inclusiveness, and not to produce language guidelines or a list of "banned" words per-se. The bottom-line is that if diversity is to be fostered, then it should be done with a serious and comprehensive analysis of the structural issues affecting it, and analyzing what needs to change to make a difference. FWIW, a lot of the discussion on terminology seems to, a large extent, very USA-centric, with the apparent assumption that events that have occurred/occur in the USA are necessarily applicable elsewhere -- and that the community at large needs to do react to that (and quickly!), to to send a political message (?) to the outside world, irrespective of how this is applicable at a global scale, or even irrespective of its impact on the population that it allegedly affects, or its impact on diversity and inclusiveness. It seems to me that things are put on the fast-track when (on only if) they affect a certain group of rather privileged people, or are of the interest of that group of people. And that is, ironically, at odds with fostering diversity and improving inclusiveness. (The only things that matters are those that are of interest to that specific group of people). FWIW, just to name one (of many): * On-line participation only became a first-class citizen with the pandemic, when everyone had to rely on it. -- some of us had relied on it "best effort" with varying results (which were mostly of interest to nobody). I applaud these advances... But I wonder if the pattern necessarily needs to be that things can only change when/if they affect (or are of interest to) the more privileged group of people. Going back to the issue at hand, I believe the problem the IETF should takcle is diversity, not language -- if anything, working on language would be a side-effect. And I would hope that the issue of diversity/inclusiveness is addressed in a comprehensive manner (because there are much more important issues, which are not even being discussed). Otherwise we'd seem to be following the same pattern I've mentioned above. P.S.: The above is not an argument against working on language issues, but rather about what the work should encompass, and how it should be structured. For instance, I'd certainly be happy to replace any possibly controversial terms in documents I co-author, regardless of whether such "recommendation" is a wiki, a github page, or an RFC. Thanks, Fernando On 13/2/21 19:52, Mark Nottingham wrote: > This issue is settled in much of tech, so we have strong cowpaths to pave. As a result, the amount of energy that it will take to create language guidelines is almost completely determined by how much energy people put into trying to stop it. > > If people have legitimate reasons as to why we shouldn't do this, that's one thing; 'our energy is better spent elsewhere' is not one of them. No where in the IETF is such an argument acceptable against a charter; we routinely charter groups that many feel aren't worth the effort, but I don't get to determine how people in the routing area (for example) spend their time, as long as there's demonstrated support for it. > > If you have better ideas about how to improve inclusivity and diversity in the IETF, suggest a (parallel) charter. This one will be judged based upon the interest expressed in it and the legitimacy of any objections against it -- just as with every other charter. > > OTOH if you're suggesting that the IETF introduce a metric for new charters that considers priority between different possible efforts, I'm all for it -- provided that the first item of business is reviewing ALL current working groups on those criteria. > > Cheers, > > >> On 13 Feb 2021, at 1:35 pm, Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> On 12/2/21 23:08, Mallory Knodel wrote: >>> Strange assumptions in this thread that as a community we can’t choose to do *all* of the things that would lead to more diversity, just because we are focussing on one, very achievable goal with this carefully crafted and thoroughly discussed action (eg the group on inclusive terminology). >> >> IMO, this boils down to: what is the problem that one is trying to solve? >> >> If the ultimate goal is that to make the IETF more inclusive, and foster diversity, then the question is: >> >> Do folks think that the high order bit of what prevents diversity and >> makes the IETF less-inclusive is language? And if so, how did they >> get to that conclusion? >> >> As noted in a previous email, there seem to be structural issues that have nothing to do with language, and that have a higher impact of fairness and inclusiveness than language itself. But none of them (other than draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-remote-fee) are being addressed or discussed -- much less being considered to spin off a wg. >> >> At the end of the day, energy is a limited resource, and one should probably set the ultimate goal, and aim to achieve it with the things that have more concrete impact. >> >> (wrt terminology, as an author, I'd be fine with an online repo of words that I could/should try to avoid if possible -- and I guess a tool (such as spell-check) from the fine folks at tools.ietf.org that finds them and proposes alternatives would do the trick, without the need for a lot of process). >> >> Thanks, >> -- >> Fernando Gont >> SI6 Networks >> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com >> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Feb 13 20:27:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14533A1431 for ; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.31) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:27:03 -0000 PiAgYnV0IEkgaG9wZSB3ZSBhbHNvDQogICAgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCBpdCBoYXMgZXNzZW50aWFsbHkg bm90aGluZyB0byBkbyB3aXRoIGFkZHJlc3NpbmcgdGhlIElFVEYncw0KICAgIGxvbmdzdGFuZGlu ZyBwcm9ibGVtcyBvZiBpbnZvbHZpbmcgYW5kIHJldGFpbmluZyBwZW9wbGUgb3V0c2lkZSB0aGUg bmFycm93DQogICAgZXRobmljIGFuZCBjdWx0dXJhbCBncm91cHMgeW91IGFuZCBJIGFuZCBtb3N0 IG90aGVyIElFVEZlcnMgY29tZSBmcm9tLg0KDQpUaGF0J3Mgbm90IGNsZWFyIHRvIG1lLiBUbyAq bm90KiBkbyBzb21ldGhpbmcgYXMgd2UgaGF2ZSBzYWlkLCBwcm9iYWJseSBkb2VzIG1ha2UgYSBz dGF0ZW1lbnQgYW5kIHdvdWxkIG1ha2UgdGhlIHByb2JsZW1zIHdvcnNlLg0KDQpTbyBJIGRpc2Fn cmVlIHdpdGggeW91Lg0KDQpUaGVyZSdzIHN0aWxsIG1vcmUgdG8gZG8sIGJ1dCB0byBub3QgZG8g dGhpcyBzZW5kcyBhIHJlYWxseSBiYWQgbWVzc2FnZS4gIEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIGl0IGFzIGxlbW1p bmdzLCBidXQgcmF0aGVyIGFzIGJlaW5nIGluIGFuZCBwYXJ0IG9mIG1vZGVybiB0ZWNobmljYWwg c29jaWV0eS4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Sat Feb 13 20:45:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F131F3A1461 for ; 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Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:45:40 +0000 (UTC) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Mark Nottingham Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:38:23 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:45:49 -0000 Hi, Joel, On 13/2/21 21:11, Joel M. Halpern wrote: [....] > > At the same time, I grant that there are a number of other aspects of > how we do business that create barriers in other ways.   I have seen > suggestion from various people that I think deserve evaluation. However, > I am unable to construct a proposed charter that would provide any > coherence and bounds to such efforts.  And process improvements (which > is the general category of the proposals I have seen) are hard enough > even when tightly scoped.  Chartering a new process WG without a clear > goal is a recipe for wasting a lot of people's time without achieving > any of the goals. > What I am wondering is if any of the folks who are concerned abut issues > outside of language selection can draft a charter. I can give that a try, if that's of use. [...] > I don't think it is really fair to the proponents of this proposal to > object on the grounds that we should do some unspecified different thing. FWIW, my objection was related to create a wg for the sole reason of discussing language, rather than with the progress of said document. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Feb 13 20:45:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4ED3A1464 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:45:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6XaIXbAXFNI7 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 584D73A1466 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDDB8280212; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:45:44 +0000 (UTC) To: Dan Harkins , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <267f8c93-e769-5ea4-f6b2-be32a4b70a5e@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:45:31 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:45:54 -0000 On 13/2/21 21:23, Dan Harkins wrote: > > On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >> [...] >>> >>>    step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave" >>>    step 2: ??? >>>    step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF >>> >>> So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from >>> step 1 to >>> step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter. >> >> Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if >> the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group should >> study what's the high-order bit to get there? > >   That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue > otherwise? Then my next question is: do people really think that what affects diversity the most is language? (FWIW, I don't) [...] >   We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How does > replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at the > IETF? FWIW, I personally think it will not make any practical difference at all. (I don't mind replacing some words from a list (would happily do it) --- But I don't think this would have any sort of effect on diversity). -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Feb 13 20:53:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EAF83A1476 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:53:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXT0AMOy1TmP for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6AE23A1474 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 20:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 667BB280212; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:53:19 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , Dan Harkins , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <368DD3CF-F704-4D4C-B0F8-4C0F07446D6A@akamai.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <8fc19eae-8a87-93a9-3aae-d7c101b770fb@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:53:13 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <368DD3CF-F704-4D4C-B0F8-4C0F07446D6A@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:53:24 -0000 On 13/2/21 21:45, Salz, Rich wrote: >> We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How >> does > replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at > the IETF? > > What kind of metric do you want to see, Dan? You want something like > "we got 10% more historically subjugated minorities participating > now" ? If not that, what? > > As Marc pointed out, the entire tech industry is moving this way, > some further along (or faster) than others. Please define "entire tech industry". There's lots of companies here that do e.g. software development, fintech, security research, consulting, etc, that do not even have this issue in the radar. > Even if you think this is just performative (the inclusionary version > of "security theater" if you will), what does it say about the IETF if > we are not part of that industry-wide move? I don't think that the events in one country (or set of countries) necessarily need to set the agenda of an otherwise global organization. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Feb 13 21:49:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8933A14F8 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:49:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4aLB5xdDUqYh for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 837873A14E0 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse467.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.213] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lBAHV-000X64-Aw for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 06:49:18 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Ddbs62zPCzQ07 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lBAHS-0006gl-93 for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:49:14 -0800 Received: (qmail 8100 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2021 05:49:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.106]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.146]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 14 Feb 2021 05:49:13 -0000 To: Fernando Gont , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <267f8c93-e769-5ea4-f6b2-be32a4b70a5e@si6networks.com> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:49:12 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <267f8c93-e769-5ea4-f6b2-be32a4b70a5e@si6networks.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------28A497F82BD48B919BA33F7F" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.213 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: ham X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.09) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT8Hkzvcsi7fVbzgKn6GVZx9PUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiqu+J4 rsjpbAhLNOVgSkZNngnrtcjzPLB8l26cZcetnKkDSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVdh3YTLaUf1T/vJjBHMeQhZotTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WX1KHe/ FVcvFYE7DSY4uAuvkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8Skyxe17QIfgTGOgXzm19 /3QDep61KNolF2DlH2a2LdpMMmtrv2iUsvl2CC901V0YBrviEnzvvDcGs5qmm9XDE2pdCBcXWVFz gdQ70iw+gN2P+1J2VTn3wfUg6mzE37UP1rXr4xH02iXtFm4w0sCOFbA4fwJOVDCkeSWm5+LqlnjK VS1bA59/1oAvzJQvjsHOZ54PX5E73H1QfrH/5kkrV/CrT/Uvv15oHViStz4PAGYtsRR9Ovbqz/k9 Jlx8RTZkJCspOMQJvQ/Ck3iiU+4DQAj366V+bW1tsfg2xPA2CLYwNyQnt+pTa4zJD+fMB+zzbmGY VJXDGnjZb4YPnojvCobsPWN/g/BGIUICg8PrKYNCSXHiWc3LT++RnJOLBrSY63obGKxULr7ex+oI pKCik3FpqOJStsA9qsUvMhhy7osI3pgn+NAz+31KXRj5A1Z2f9DFKU6YHAsoq5AGcl7xeKs16izp TU4kn+kEqRVKUWCpAaQElPJyNJdgFsJFEs/93MV9b//S2A+ndTiC/pYL1H7S5AnI+wExEi2ZXZcw Fmj/G7L97nvu/9UF3eGNbYE3zMW/zL5Sm+zgWxnLFuTTvON0cZH4I1J828LMkd2m+ZAO6xUo+ql2 ySTkvEFH/23XMwyhLJoDVPNCkw0HFsHtEuJgLLs3dEsb9guMWMSeF6E/xrNIzVbebDjVUqG21KSQ /TRRol0DVK/dVw9xTQBkpyJ5+MTObVKxHy/dols381l9rx2sb8VPrpKTFA/s0jyf320= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 05:49:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------28A497F82BD48B919BA33F7F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/13/2021 8:45 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > On 13/2/21 21:23, Dan Harkins wrote: >> >> On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >>> On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> [...] >>>> >>>>    step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave" >>>>    step 2: ??? >>>>    step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF >>>> >>>> So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from >>>> step 1 to >>>> step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter. >>> >>> Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if >>> the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group >>> should study what's the high-order bit to get there? >> >>    That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue >> otherwise? > > Then my next question is: do people really think that what affects > diversity the most is language? > > (FWIW, I don't) Fernando, if you believe that something else should be treated with high priority, why don't you make a proposal to deal with that other problem? Write a statement, maybe a draft. Convince people, gain support, etc. Having a separate working group working on terminology does not prevent you from doing that. -- Christian Huitema --------------28A497F82BD48B919BA33F7F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 2/13/2021 8:45 PM, Fernando Gont wrote:
On 13/2/21 21:23, Dan Harkins wrote:

On 2/13/21 10:38 AM, Fernando Gont wrote:
On 13/2/21 15:27, Dan Harkins wrote:
[...]

   step 1: stop using the words "master" and "slave"
   step 2: ???
   step 3: more diverse and inclusive IETF

So anyone who can explain step 2 in sufficient detail to get from step 1 to
step 3 would probably be an authority on the matter.

Shouldn't the first question be "where do you want to get?". And, if the answer is "more diverse and inclusive IETF", then the group should study what's the high-order bit to get there?

   That seems to already be the answer. Have you heard anyone argue otherwise?

Then my next question is: do people really think that what affects diversity the most is language?

(FWIW, I don't)

Fernando, if you believe that something else should be treated with high priority, why don't you make a proposal to deal with that other problem? Write a statement, maybe a draft. Convince people, gain support, etc. Having a separate working group working on terminology does not prevent you from doing that.

-- Christian Huitema


--------------28A497F82BD48B919BA33F7F-- From nobody Sun Feb 14 01:38:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDD73A0839 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:38:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hxf-_FPpHfRz for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07D633A0813 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4913B15 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:38:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=rLMbuCULZgrpNcLBtISHFgiP7HhlTwqwuRySAdVhK 8w=; b=DVyV/oC8+4zd6Ud5UvOib4cjhOz9rT8oqYIoH+gQW/DWNX/8BiK7Juhok MYGZLzmJPdsd0OR/ZK+3X/OXH2GZE2vLgS5YXZJQOlIyGfgRM2BVMkkQIrraXw1e G7ygmEprkxovqB3kibDchC8Vh+DC687TVQxePbov/aTCviwgOOiAKJqhhouJ6WPI Awx50o9IIAgleQtdd0ldXqKksrwG3QwV3/Q69dDZFd4UhD131VwwYehIeg+iNtRM SnisYob8X0ALyHv3v4OsdNDK5/fioeJgqRkrsRxqalGrlUD9RIytdbBlBp2/tLkc UAeWek4tka87q41c0KZLLRkrOc3dw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieehgddtiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgf efgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 21BFC1080059 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:38:34 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <267f8c93-e769-5ea4-f6b2-be32a4b70a5e@si6networks.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <0aca9dfb-01e9-ebb2-fba1-da5737847411@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 04:38:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:38:38 -0000 On 2/14/21 12:49 AM, Christian Huitema wrote: > Fernando, if you believe that something else should be treated with > high priority, why don't you make a proposal to deal with that other > problem? Write a statement, maybe a draft. Convince people, gain > support, etc. Having a separate working group working on terminology > does not prevent you from doing that. "It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a working group, to treat everything as if it were a protocol design problem." (Apologies to Abraham Maslow.) I am fairly convinced that a working group is the wrong solution to nearly every problem of lack of inclusion and diversity. Working groups exist to let a group of people with narrowly defined interests focus on a particular problem in relative isolation from the whole.   To be successful, inclusion efforts require broad participation and involvement from the entire breadth of the community. IETF has a longstanding and particularly bad habit of using working groups to bury uncomfortable discussions, to make them Somebody Else's Problem.   That's fine if the topic is really only about some narrow interest that most participants don't need to know or care about, and most of what IETF needs to do can reasonably be treated in that way.  But inclusion is not one of those topics. Keith From nobody Sun Feb 14 06:32:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482BB3A0D38 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 06:32:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.4, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bifxa2HJTAmz for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 06:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BCF43A0D37 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 06:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 11EEVuUO077251; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 06:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ietf@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from ietf@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 11EEVr5x077250; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 06:31:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ietf) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202102141431.11EEVr5x077250@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: To: Fernando Gont Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 06:31:53 -0800 (PST) CC: "Joel M. Halpern" , Mark Nottingham , "gendispatch@ietf.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:32:02 -0000 Hello Fernando, > Hi, Joel, > > On 13/2/21 21:11, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > [....] > > > > At the same time, I grant that there are a number of other aspects of > > how we do business that create barriers in other ways.?? I have seen > > suggestion from various people that I think deserve evaluation. However, > > I am unable to construct a proposed charter that would provide any > > coherence and bounds to such efforts.? And process improvements (which > > is the general category of the proposals I have seen) are hard enough > > even when tightly scoped.? Chartering a new process WG without a clear > > goal is a recipe for wasting a lot of people's time without achieving > > any of the goals. > > What I am wondering is if any of the folks who are concerned abut issues > > outside of language selection can draft a charter. > > I can give that a try, if that's of use. I would indeed like to see a broader charter than TERM as it is expressed today. I am of the position that language is such a tiny part of the larger problem that addressing only the language would actually be paying disrespect to the real problem, and those organizations that have done just that and moved on are no better for having done so, and those that have not are no worse off for having not done so. > [...] > > I don't think it is really fair to the proponents of this proposal to > > object on the grounds that we should do some unspecified different thing. > > FWIW, my objection was related to create a wg for the sole reason of > discussing language, rather than with the progress of said document. Could you please write a larger scope WG chater? Someone? I would like to see that. > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Sun Feb 14 08:32:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87D23A0ECB for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 08:32:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MDtPtSM3fuUX for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 08:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB353A0EC9 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 08:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.96.153]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 11EGW0bO002234 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 08:32:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1613320332; x=1613406732; i=@elandsys.com; bh=R+jBwrMdDiNaapP5cYWR+y0OZ/KxvukoNNykToxUXWU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=oEpfN9dYirH9ouAaSgE4iG6Kj9eYn5P7sB+dzfbRk3EsG9jAIJZUoXr9JlTa4ESDr drOcbfpul/1b/ux+/+n0xiImKEo2m6EUqcpIsfBi8VjT/8QkaKgYsrd7CA4TfZEnF/ sBGVuyZkfoTRJospL/0gtAB2XmBD14pPTiWpDX5A= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210214080408.0c4e2ae8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 08:31:42 -0800 To: "Joel M. Halpern" , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 16:32:26 -0000 Hi Joel, At 04:11 PM 13-02-2021, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >On the one hand, there are a lot of external indications that >language usage is causing a significant population problems. I >would like to see the IETF as a community recognize that and write >down suggestions on ways to improve it. The language usage is not even on the radar at my location. From what I have seen on the news, it is a problem in the United States. >At the same time, I grant that there are a number of other aspects >of how we do business that create barriers in other ways. I have >seen suggestion from various people that I think deserve evaluation. >However, I am unable to construct a proposed charter that would >provide any coherence and bounds to such efforts. And process >improvements (which is the general category of the proposals I have >seen) are hard enough even when tightly scoped. Chartering a new >process WG without a clear goal is a recipe for wasting a lot of >people's time without achieving any of the goals. An unbounded effort would lead to the same results as before, i.e. doing nothing and "IETF Management" pretending that the effort was a success. It is very difficult to gain agreement on a charter for a topic which could have a negative impact on current barriers. Regards, S. 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[24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c22sm22556386wrb.91.2021.02.14.09.46.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:46:50 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EBFA8199-B81D-4F13-BFFE-B584AF6C336B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:46:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> Cc: Bob Hinden , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Christian Huitema References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:46:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EBFA8199-B81D-4F13-BFFE-B584AF6C336B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Christian, > On Feb 13, 2021, at 4:46 PM, Christian Huitema = wrote: >=20 > On 2/13/2021 4:23 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> We have specifically targeted the words "master" and "slave". How = does >> replacing those words with others affect diversity and inclusion at = the IETF? > Two reasons. First, the practice of slavery is now generally = considered abhorrent. Yes, it was widely practiced through history, from = the bronze age all the way to the XIXth century, with a large diversity = of perpetrators and targets. Mostly, that has ceased, but history and = legacy remains. A large part of the IETF activity happens in the US, and = a significant fraction of the US population resent any kind of = glorification of the past practices that enslaved their ancestors. So = there is that, there definitely are people who are not happy about the = imagery that such language evokes. >=20 > Then, there is a broken glass effect. The relation between the legacy = of slavery and the master-slave vocabulary has been exposed. Think of = that as glass that was broken. Insisting on not replacing this = vocabulary is not neutral. It amounts to repairing the broken glass and = insisting on its continuous usage. That becomes an affirmative statement = for dismissing any concerns about the legacy of slavery. That's = definitely not the kind of statement that I would like to hear from the = IETF. >=20 > Let's charter this working group and be done with it. >=20 I agree. I also think that diversity in the IETF and language in RFCs are mostly = different topics. Diversity in the IETF is about who participates in the IETF, increasing = participation in the IETF, etc. RFCs are used by a much broader = Internet community that the folks who participate in the IETF. Bob --Apple-Mail=_EBFA8199-B81D-4F13-BFFE-B584AF6C336B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmApYgYACgkQrut0EXfn u6iAKggAjAn+HkUgtLW55ipDV23+gVRbOh3TChip0ABRvYoALGMe079i0HHHsz4I IKOLHuJHiGFXmP8E8vjwlxaByX+OvJwHlE/6uXz3QHlErK/pdcdriIeTiY/TxwnL DjaGjn/J3EDrH+Xkr2BsJdsGPcTvbxRKfP1Q1pTJ1duICNy/vmxp+DD4dW/yF1Nn Sy48ux5rnWrXsj0gXnmD4nWLuLI9NbhhPWKjX383GT49md7zkCAprTk33q53efg6 NsfxURLbyWBHQEi3RMdmZ4LUnBpkt0h3CyyR71B4sjNx0GjRHpGYzIbKrrn/vhRF KY/RgiL8/gObguczj6cucQgC1Ly6Rg== =lu03 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_EBFA8199-B81D-4F13-BFFE-B584AF6C336B-- From nobody Sun Feb 14 10:51:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34773A10F6 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:51:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oBfN-x-3TMyK for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 965B53A10F5 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8691B5C0068 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:51:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=hEEbzg0nbxFqBsArIZrGGbD2WrOO/RR7cGB77Ezw7 +8=; b=QdDWo/v2mXehbWVdxSoBhWXlMWo/Y7Ckqrf0rkmEupcWtUiukuRHWp3I1 knWugy1J5DGvNaWFN6FERogFzN40z0PRxK8TEujSWxJaVJNDFbtbrI2c9kwje8u8 FjGVtbr/Jy6wbhEpd2OxAG6nXelBqXu6snQrHv33HmdIESSWNYv+1z7m6/4S2568 CC+FLxaAFCNVN6fAamnrBPhmB/jFVk0+tPKOjCicS3GXGQCYCVXMV3gvXrpkfAcf XevZbMiE/PVO0QVSu9To1eWvEBVGdKjIUpLjWEOrq7bF5VXUoANi2DYkQ+pyXYxV 1C+lXnfvXd7ILhy2SeBguyDjKcf7Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieehgdduudekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeehnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehudfhleduge euteevvefhueejjeefffefteettddvleefgfekieekheejffdvffenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C2139108005C for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:51:52 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:51:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:51:56 -0000 On 2/14/21 12:46 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: > I also think that diversity in the IETF and language in RFCs are mostly different topics. > > Diversity in the IETF is about who participates in the IETF, increasing participation in the IETF, etc. RFCs are used by a much broader Internet community that the folks who participate in the IETF. +1. Very clear statement. Keith p.s. Still wish we'd just skip the WG and just last call the document. From nobody Sun Feb 14 12:22:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EC23A09D7 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:22:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VX8s28shgA-R for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F4A73A09CF for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA31128064B; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:22:01 +0000 (UTC) To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Mark Nottingham , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <202102141431.11EEVr5x077250@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <09083e69-3230-be19-7ce8-1e524fbd1520@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:21:49 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <202102141431.11EEVr5x077250@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:22:12 -0000 On 14/2/21 11:31, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: [...] > > I would indeed like to see a broader charter than TERM as it > is expressed today. I am of the position that language is > such a tiny part of the larger problem that addressing only > the language would actually be paying disrespect to the real > problem, and those organizations that have done just that > and moved on are no better for having done so, and those > that have not are no worse off for having not done so. Bravo! That's indeed how I feel about it. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Feb 14 12:24:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45EF93A09E9 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:24:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWL-ZTC6l_FY for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C920D3A09E8 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:24:13 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_04B8CFA2-34A9-4B33-AA0D-C72F00B314EA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:24:11 +1300 References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> Message-Id: <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:24:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_04B8CFA2-34A9-4B33-AA0D-C72F00B314EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Speaking as a non-white person with extensive personal experience of = racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to address: Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity = and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly = change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor disempowering, = but rather it is both heartening and solidarity building. The = alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not wishing to do = that makes me wary that either they are racist, or sympathise with = racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism. = To use modern terminology, the difference is between feeling "safe" and = "unsafe". This wariness directly affects participation - if there is a decision to = be made on where to direct resources then (on average) the "unsafe" = organisation loses out. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_04B8CFA2-34A9-4B33-AA0D-C72F00B314EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Speaking as a non-white person with extensive personal = experience of racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to = address:

Having = wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity and = inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly change = their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor disempowering, but = rather it is both heartening and solidarity building.  The = alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not wishing to do = that makes me wary that either they are racist, or sympathise with = racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism. =  To use modern terminology, the difference is between feeling = "safe" and "unsafe".

This wariness directly affects participation - if there is a = decision to be made on where to direct resources then (on average) the = "unsafe" organisation loses out.

Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_04B8CFA2-34A9-4B33-AA0D-C72F00B314EA-- From nobody Sun Feb 14 12:32:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734063A0A2B for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:32:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TfhdnPU9M5T9 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D65B33A09CD for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3ACCB28027F; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:32:32 +0000 (UTC) To: S Moonesamy , "Joel M. Halpern" , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <3535f045-f2cb-58bc-8e91-fd92c65b16fe@joelhalpern.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20210214080408.0c4e2ae8@elandnews.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <151b0531-edf4-f8a3-f25c-56bf707866bf@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:32:26 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20210214080408.0c4e2ae8@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:32:38 -0000 On 14/2/21 13:31, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Joel, > At 04:11 PM 13-02-2021, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> On the one hand, there are a lot of external indications that language >> usage is causing a significant population problems.  I would like to >> see the IETF as a community recognize that and write down suggestions >> on ways to improve it. > > The language usage is not even on the radar at my location.  From what I > have seen on the  news, it is a problem in the United States. That should ring the bell to those who knowing the IETF is a global organization, expect it to be run as a USA-centric organization. FWIW, some folks from some european countries made a similar comment recently, on the ietf@ list. The above sends a broad message that is orders of magnitude worse than the "problem" it aims to solve. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Feb 14 12:40:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE91C3A0A73 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:40:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pysV1SWFAMbr for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 643333A0A6F for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:40:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EDAF028027F; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:40:31 +0000 (UTC) To: Bob Hinden , Christian Huitema Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:40:25 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:40:37 -0000 On 14/2/21 14:46, Bob Hinden wrote: [...] > > I agree. > > I also think that diversity in the IETF and language in RFCs are mostly different topics. > > Diversity in the IETF is about who participates in the IETF, increasing participation in the IETF, etc. RFCs are used by a much broader Internet community that the folks who participate in the IETF. Focusing on this, while ignoring the rest, reads a lot like "let's be nice in our documents while we keep people excluded from participating" to me. I'm curious if I'm the only one that finds it awkward (?) that what seems to be a group of (probably 100%) privileged white people from developed countries think their are doing a favor to people of different skin color, with none from said community participating, and none of the things that probably caused said group to be under-represented are even in the agenda to be addressed? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Feb 14 12:46:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDFF3A0AA1; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:46:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BfwsFm-roegx; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A86A43A07E2; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 399CD280127; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:46:09 +0000 (UTC) To: Jay Daley , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:46:04 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:46:14 -0000 Hi, Jay, On 14/2/21 17:24, Jay Daley wrote: [...] > Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity > and inclusivity seriously enough Indeed, this is what I am *asking* the IETF to do. But this *is not* what is being done. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Feb 14 12:54:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569DD3A0ACB for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:54:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U8Epv5yxq9cW; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE1563A0AC5; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:54:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <3696A8F2-E006-4A93-85E9-8829EF30E8BD@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F783157F-3023-43F8-8AC8-C47AF1CC1D5C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:54:04 +1300 In-Reply-To: <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Fernando Gont References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:54:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F783157F-3023-43F8-8AC8-C47AF1CC1D5C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 15/02/2021, at 9:46 AM, Fernando Gont = wrote: >=20 > Hi, Jay, >=20 > On 14/2/21 17:24, Jay Daley wrote: > [...] >> Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of = diversity and inclusivity seriously enough=20 >=20 > Indeed, this is what I am *asking* the IETF to do. >=20 > But this *is not* what is being done. You selectively edited my message to remove "to try to explicitly and = publicly change their behaviours". By seeking to block people who wish = to explore a possible path you are doing quite the opposite. Jay >=20 > Thanks, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_F783157F-3023-43F8-8AC8-C47AF1CC1D5C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 15/02/2021, at 9:46 AM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:

Hi, = Jay,

On 14/2/21 17:24, Jay Daley wrote:
[...]
Having= wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity and = inclusivity seriously enough

Indeed, this is what I am *asking* the IETF to do.

But this *is not* what is being done.

You = selectively edited my message to remove "to try to explicitly and = publicly change their behaviours".  By seeking to block people who = wish to explore a possible path you are doing quite the = opposite.

Jay



Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: = fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 = 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492





-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_F783157F-3023-43F8-8AC8-C47AF1CC1D5C-- From nobody Sun Feb 14 13:12:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116E93A0B37 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:12:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yEVRtiiotCfZ for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FB5D3A0B29 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id cl8so2570453pjb.0 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:12:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RyVY3ugaM6HTiek7UTJhkCUIkpm+ayHsAlos63MJ+AA=; b=CSPpRD+xfe4y5vs2FkObXh9jOEUkYOZOWiEbJAKprbuWxLyrvPS2/QdMHuoHUQo2VS s5fAZlh59AtfvgOn9W9YPj8pqqF+txLBpIUNI/csv730j0IlIQDE+cphphOrqs+DXpnw tgwhm4SiZBob6NwV0H4CIwvEhoS+EuFUTTRqRL8iM6fNqZ/bPTAoTFeZdVhQQM65HoEz vjebvuyNXvUl/h2DNxQH3Aq0Fx8oj8QmdSGafrD51XBePirpdGPrZZD5pcjaJb83sJRe 9ryY2CZk92aGYQSbHyQbX9zM2aqKikQGTPHmDDQmhs8FCO3uUA0kfN1MyYVnjFXClkmb /snw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RyVY3ugaM6HTiek7UTJhkCUIkpm+ayHsAlos63MJ+AA=; b=XJeVBwXawnxVWuWBv3xjMJA4+enWUNsOiwSwDuw0lEKtCrJ2qUOHpjLu7DY0ze5l3Q KQFUZXXTSEUdk8WJyp3waB/bu1CjpWWMQ+nhtKUmBUlRzdeOcX/4eAZzE+o1SBfA7SNY 1l6cqJ2un+kdZopiGGTfWRd17nwnemRYypHyaU3YxVYGrARz/0thXBfSd7N4OY3ca9Ld DRLXFSu4GKV0TN49G4sEL+9z4/RqGRsM0q7UwMvlT3LBtn8BclgAfjbpLyMCTXfPcohf QpRFTzAOeysqz1D3UMD3fiR32vU7okVubCXTem0Rvafj6GIPnvulZfJgxuuMzXrOsIuT Xffw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530CkCre7etmts8e0VBhjh6OiX2iLrN3p2Jlv/Lhm+LSGDKju8S+ dbePyfsDBX7nY3sCXWOxDnRYixkmJLQuqw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxgUHzaqOH6/nYzeul/hr7AiII/UD4DMtQDkDInbG+QZn+wM8HTxBq9nWmrJtfZvwv0E/TKhA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:fe0b:b029:e1:54bc:a36a with SMTP id g11-20020a170902fe0bb02900e154bca36amr12405481plj.34.1613337168398; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q196sm16981415pfc.162.2021.02.14.13.12.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:12:47 -0800 (PST) To: Fernando Gont , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <5a15dfa3-394c-a1ad-d97e-0b3db7e6e27b@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:12:43 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:12:51 -0000 On 15-Feb-21 09:46, Fernando Gont wrote: > Hi, Jay, > > On 14/2/21 17:24, Jay Daley wrote: > [...] >> Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity >> and inclusivity seriously enough > > Indeed, this is what I am *asking* the IETF to do. > > But this *is not* what is being done. Sorry, but I think that's not quite fair. 1. There is a fairly simple problem to solve: use of language that some groups of readers find to be exclusionary or worse. We can solve that by a simple, focussed document that basically says "don't do that" and, going forward, as part of the normal document review and editing process. That's the goal of the proposed short-lived WG. 2. There is a much more complex and broader problem to solve: inclusiveness and diversity among IETF participants and leadership. I don't think we've even started the analysis of that problem in a serious way, let alone worked out the direction of possible solutions. That should be done, but glancing at my calendar, it seems like something that the new IETF Chair should put on their To Do list. A starting point could be draft-somebody-gendispatch-diversity-analysis. Whether it ends up with a WG charter or some other mechanism is still an open question IMHO. Regards Brian From nobody Sun Feb 14 13:30:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A613A126D for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:23:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EjVsIWPpLNa4 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 908A03A1252 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id d26so2003847pfn.5 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:23:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Di2qlqVIw2plpOEWJkWuBAu3Tzzl15bZBtabo9wDjsQ=; b=lkUBgZuHO0/ZOzmAhP+QMOs05vTpdjnhUJl9wkS2DFrnRZs3c17Bn6mfTESdBo8RKz jXXYmpUMMDT6zttGdseoSi1edWpdVfWRuoe9WmduYGKmicfWZZ5bi76gkX9jPgDrMVGC /jAYG1+3r2OkG/lSKACf+ShFhdlOxl+1GXdBLMjAwINme9XvtM0jVdikoeakP+KI6z7m ZePZ9NTPaAchBqy8SiH9vw9/Pysb9ZCRxIk0x2gsgiqTdLRwgfnzk2AzFYRf88JjOCat 5bgFC0+B1LjYjDLd0KWkWL0xZCbyUa8HsZ5HSHLzgV3qmNVq1yMg9nEugCo3plANzZdJ 1Wjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Di2qlqVIw2plpOEWJkWuBAu3Tzzl15bZBtabo9wDjsQ=; b=qQ0A8a5Mcem0G2HttCQMvkEOZ2gG+5wbbSqc7TJyEpyLjS3f/AYPD+vuLj04vF00li rEdb0zV853ELUllM7eGrvp/UD2vq285miCL/mZA8jlHVJl/OqsGTzre2FM9rQOMuNPhb ccUZQ/Zb+XhsKq7RBFfHFYSfZl2mBhZbbIIRHPIFQrj3J8mEdoVpsf5xUg6zjC32z4Sh wY+qL/vnIW7ADTnGfwsrZiIz6eQWelqv3kIcdRBVScHrWkjAU2DcmFZRh+h4bud/BZYP JE2GVr6GiEKJvfr9lF882JHGvqaK+oB99ceyDrMIySo6IRDWtuFOej7kkhrUi5ZAE9op g4Tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531YX9I2kvHizAnNei7rs5B2tGjwL/afpWBIBMd7iyJqtaOaZuZw fO+rXyCeRiOTvyHUSzWvRaE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbRUtNB5Xho15DFM/l8t1kSMl54/aeRf0oDtjA8Zr6KuFgTe+nGvcGAsRRQ3J6baGtjDTfwQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:3686:: with SMTP id d128mr9417897pga.240.1613265792551; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z12sm11798171pjz.16.2021.02.13.17.23.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:23:11 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla , Mark Nottingham Cc: "vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" , Keith Moore , Mallory Knodel , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , John Levine , Fernando Gont , Fernando Gont , Stephen Farrell References: <20210212205351.27E4B6DDB49D@ary.qy> <3b4ea13c-0743-c882-7fc0-1fe7288f6d07@gont.com.ar> <772fa23e-4170-82d2-8ee2-caececd83904@si6networks.com> <47ff90d4-b960-f159-c064-1f963c717c31@network-heretics.com> <7E75BBC0-3266-4980-9676-1384B7D0D565@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:23:04 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:29:59 -0800 Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 01:23:16 -0000 On 14-Feb-21 13:23, Eric Rescorla wrote: =2E.. >>> If we want to publish a document that talks about exclusionary langua= ge, let's just Last Call what we have once or twice (but no more than tha= t) and be done with it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't think a WG is going to improv= e the document as much as community-wide Last Calls, and IMO a WG on this= topic has a lot more potential to do harm than good. >>=20 >> I think that would work if we didn't have a small group of people who = vocally and continually insert ever-shifting arguments against this. Unde= r those conditions, it's normal practice for a WG to be formed; AD-sponso= red is always tenuous, and not really built for contentious issues. Yes. (For example, RFC8989 was just done *without* a WG, because although= the details caused quite some discussion, the basic concept was not sign= ificantly contentious.)=20 > I concur with Mark. In addition, I note that many of the issues people > are raising now werealso raised in the gendispatch discussion > (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/6Od2aX-uiYGdYCKZqfvr= OHHtY58/),so > we're going over old ground. >=20 > =C2=A0 =C2=A0After extensive discussion, there were objections by the e= nd of the > =C2=A0 =C2=A0first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsor= ed, with > =C2=A0 =C2=A0a preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting= , there > =C2=A0 =C2=A0was more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-s= pin WG > =C2=A0 =C2=A0would be better. Putting this together, we think the rough= > =C2=A0 =C2=A0consensus within the meetings was to have a quick-spin WG.= I agree. (And the spin-off from this discussion is that we also need a br= oader effort on diversity, but that is a *separate* discussion.) Brian From nobody Sun Feb 14 13:32:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1F73A0BD7; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:32:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ak6RpsV_7Y4W; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C6CD3A0BD4; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D103228064B; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:32:21 +0000 (UTC) To: Jay Daley Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> <3696A8F2-E006-4A93-85E9-8829EF30E8BD@ietf.org> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:20:56 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3696A8F2-E006-4A93-85E9-8829EF30E8BD@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:32:29 -0000 On 14/2/21 17:54, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> On 15/02/2021, at 9:46 AM, Fernando Gont > > wrote: >> >> Hi, Jay, >> >> On 14/2/21 17:24, Jay Daley wrote: >> [...] >>> Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of >>> diversity and inclusivity seriously enough >> >> Indeed, this is what I am *asking* the IETF to do. >> >> But this *is not* what is being done. > > You selectively edited my message to remove "to try to explicitly and > publicly change their behaviours". That doesn't change my comment in any way: the behaviors include all the structural issues that cause a lot of people and communities to be excluded from participating. > By seeking to block people who wish > to explore a possible path you are doing quite the opposite. Actually, I think no path is being explored to really address the problem. -- that's indeed wre I'm coming from. And either I not expressed my point of view or intention well, of you misunderstood it. But this one summarized it well enough: * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/mdvNlkBh4A_3_eOGKKFqM6oqvXA/ (I just realized that the other one was thinking of was sent off-list, to a subset of people) Not sure why you assume I intend to block anything.... Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Feb 14 13:46:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE293A0C17 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:46:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 563EDU9WTPoq for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F12283A0C0D for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA23928062A; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:46:43 +0000 (UTC) To: Brian E Carpenter , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> <5a15dfa3-394c-a1ad-d97e-0b3db7e6e27b@gmail.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <16802d72-4429-342b-d3d4-6e3acf8008ac@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:46:34 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5a15dfa3-394c-a1ad-d97e-0b3db7e6e27b@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:46:50 -0000 Hi, Brian, On 14/2/21 18:12, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 15-Feb-21 09:46, Fernando Gont wrote: >> Hi, Jay, >> >> On 14/2/21 17:24, Jay Daley wrote: [...] >>> Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of >>> diversity and inclusivity seriously enough >> >> Indeed, this is what I am *asking* the IETF to do. >> >> But this *is not* what is being done. > > Sorry, but I think that's not quite fair. > > 1. There is a fairly simple problem to solve: use of language that > some groups of readers find to be exclusionary or worse. We can > solve that by a simple, focussed document that basically says "don't > do that" and, going forward, as part of the normal document review > and editing process. That's the goal of the proposed short-lived WG. FWIW, I don't object to this document being progressed. As noted, I'm keen to do any language adjustments myself, even without RFC-status document. > 2. There is a much more complex and broader problem to solve: > inclusiveness and diversity among IETF participants and leadership. > I don't think we've even started the analysis of that problem in a > serious way, let alone worked out the direction of possible > solutions. This is indeed what I meant to say. And my question is/was: why is this always left out or postponed? Whenever something along this lines (albeit not as an I-D), the typical reaction has been "the IETF is only about getting work done" or the like. Suggestiond on the (now defunct?) diversity@ list were similarly shot-down. So I'm curious about the criteria for deciding what should be a concerned for the IETF, and what not. > That should be done, but glancing at my calendar, it seems like > something that the new IETF Chair should put on their To Do list. A > starting point could be draft-somebody-gendispatch-diversity-analysis. > Whether it ends up with a WG charter or some other mechanism is still > an open question IMHO. Fair enough. I will give that a try (wouldn't go as far as saying "diversity analysis", though) Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Feb 14 14:02:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6927B3A0C44 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:01:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=gahjtbym; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=bDNB/3ir Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sgZBkl5aCfwY for ; 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Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:01:54 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-141-gf094924a34-fm-20210210.001-gf094924a Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <215d78f0-81c0-4329-8619-4d11816ebd92@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:01:33 +1100 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=3ae80e1f932e4c9bacd60e351ef036d2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 22:01:59 -0000 --3ae80e1f932e4c9bacd60e351ef036d2 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ooh... look what just arrived in my mailbox this morning: The following draft will expire soon: Name: draft-gondwana-effective-terminology Title: Effective Terminology in IETF drafts State: I-D Exists Expires: 2021-02-26 (in 1 week, 4 days) I've been mostly following this thread, in between trying to live the re= st of my life (mostly, recovering from a rather brutal dental surgery fo= llowing an incomplete tooth removal back during the worst of lockdown an= d the subsequent infection, whee, but I digress) My memory of the discussions lo these many many months ago was that we h= ad reached a consensus within the discussions, and announced it to the g= endispatch list, that we would be forming a working group. It's been on= my personal checklist for some months to keep an eye out for when it ha= ppens, because I know that I've promised to help revise the draft, and t= hat's going to take both a lot of time and lot of emotional and mental e= nergy - "threading the needle" as it were. It's quite clear that the terms "master" / "slave" / "{50 shades of}list= " are all contentious and create a ton of heat. That's reasons enough t= o avoid them regardless of the expected outcome. *Even if not using tho= se terms makes our documents less clear*, the sad fact is that in CURREN= T_YEAR they are attractors for distraction. (not just those terms - if you want to see another attractor for distrac= tion at work, search "Kyiv" on the tz@iana list) My main concern is that we don't restrict our list to just the 2021 smal= l set of politically charged terms. An example that came up at IETF107 = was the term "folks" and how some feel degraded or dismissed by it, and = I think say "folks is informal and shouldn't be used in professional doc= uments" would be a fair treatment here if we are creating a list of term= s. To those who strongly oppose this charter and this working group - I wou= ld urge you to look at this as a circuit breaker to absorb some of this = energy and to make our documents more readable to those who care about s= uch things, rather than as a capitulation to all that is censorious in t= he world. Saying "these terms are heated and will distract your readers from the p= oint of your document" is on the face of it true, just by looking back a= t this thread and seeing how heated the responses have been. That is a = sufficient and complete justification for doing this work, and most impo= rtantly *does not require that this work make the IETF more inclusive in= any measurable or justifiable way.* **This is really important to me, because I don't believe that such meas= urement or proof is possible in a way that can get consensus, but I do t= hink that avoiding heated terms so we can get on with producing high qua= lity, readable technical documents can get consensus, so that's what I'm= trying to do. Regards, Bron. On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote: > Hi!, >=20 > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >=20 > Cheers, > spt >=20 > ---------- >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qual= ity, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, = use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal o= f the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable,= clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts ar= e most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and w= idely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there= has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80= =9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in t= echnical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on= inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this top= ic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit fro= m informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive term= inology in IETF documents.=20 >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informatio= nal RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical wo= rk produced by the IETF.=20 >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendat= ions=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --3ae80e1f932e4c9bacd60e351ef036d2 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ooh... look what just arrived in my mailbox this morn= ing:

The following draft will expire soon:

=

Name:     draft-gondwana-effective-termin=
ology
Title:    Effective Terminology in IE=
TF drafts
State:    I-D Exists
Expires:  2021-02-26 (in 1 week, 4 days)

I've been mostly following this thread, in between trying to live= the rest of my life (mostly, recovering from a rather brutal dental sur= gery following an incomplete tooth removal back during the worst of lock= down and the subsequent infection, whee, but I digress)

M= y memory of the discussions lo these many many months ago was that we ha= d reached a consensus within the discussions, and announced it to the ge= ndispatch list, that we would be forming a working group.  It's bee= n on my personal checklist for some months to keep an eye out for when i= t happens, because I know that I've promised to help revise the draft, a= nd that's going to take both a lot of time and lot of emotional and ment= al energy - "threading the needle" as it were.

It's quite= clear that the terms "master" / "slave" / "{50 shades of}list" are all = contentious and create a ton of heat.  That's reasons enough to avo= id them regardless of the expected outcome.  Even if not using t= hose terms makes our documents less clear, the sad fact is that in C= URRENT_YEAR they are attractors for distraction.

(not jus= t those terms - if you want to see another attractor for distraction at = work, search "Kyiv" on the tz@iana list)

My main concern = is that we don't restrict our list to just the 2021 small set of politic= ally charged terms.  An example that came up at IETF107 was the ter= m "folks" and how some feel degraded or dismissed by it, and I think say= "folks is informal and shouldn't be used in professional documents" wou= ld be a fair treatment here if we are creating a list of terms.

To those who strongly oppose this charter and this working group = - I would urge you to look at this as a circuit breaker to absorb some o= f this energy and to make our documents more readable to those who care = about such things, rather than as a capitulation to all that is censorio= us in the world.

Saying "these terms are heated and will = distract your readers from the point of your document" is on the face of= it true, just by looking back at this thread and seeing how heated the = responses have been.  That is a sufficient and complete justificati= on for doing this work, and most importantly does not require that th= is work make the IETF more inclusive in any measurable or justifiable wa= y.

This is really important to me, because I do= n't believe that such measurement or proof is possible in a way that can= get consensus, but I do think that avoiding heated terms so we can get = on with producing high quality, readable technical documents can get con= sensus, so that's what I'm trying to do.

Regards,

Bron.

= On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote:
Hi!= ,

Here is some proposed charter text to address the termi= nology-related WG.

=
Cheers,
spt

----------

Effective Term= inology in IETF Documents (TERM)
----

The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 i= s to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence t= he way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains= , "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce docume= nts that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs = and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is= clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgroun= ds and cultures.

In the years leading up to the charterin= g of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other= standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use o= f certain terms (such as =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cbla= cklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in technical documentation and whether those = and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among I= ETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the I= ETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about usi= ng effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. 

The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Infor= mational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technic= al work produced by the IETF. 

Milestones:
=

July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recomme= ndations 
-- 
Gendispatch mailing list
=
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com

--3ae80e1f932e4c9bacd60e351ef036d2-- From nobody Sun Feb 14 14:52:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD603A0CE1 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:52:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VeKmbv6uZwKj for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE9E23A0CDB for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27AAA5C0043 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:52:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=M9eIwsQWnQPqsKcY0S3RhdCFPLpg9mjya4E/D5o/q zc=; b=uiKcSFDV5Fleucntx3eIguGuII4MktOIJvt32djjhgJ/SucfRrNgmbNbA 7tBTaqbTfAP/gBnnNbW6zNi1aOnIaEf8B2bS6ujTAc9GuFi6DfRsLyHW+0/HAdAo Uc36Diw7o88L79wHnLHbUettzsTTgT/nk7tQDOvy+OjI4Nc5npnAWBl8/f2KduWV 7/lb7TAT20DXUnPXitz0sWpSqRxSzwpXUSJwfz6YX+mCzuq4Z5fxXPFDYxHUp2M2 BgJLtFMsfrqwSF8qr7ua519hoJFVxbiojh8mVXM+CXcQJ9IX6kzL242iKb4BljhR oaCoWy3TkST/0XFsGsKFMD8ppL5BQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieeigddtvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkedvgefgleeule ekuefhffehgefhhfekuedvudduiefhhedufefftdfgtdekfffgnecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 880481080059 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:52:23 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> <5a15dfa3-394c-a1ad-d97e-0b3db7e6e27b@gmail.com> <16802d72-4429-342b-d3d4-6e3acf8008ac@si6networks.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <466082e7-8a0c-9ee3-3ca7-c43ddba4f615@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:52:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16802d72-4429-342b-d3d4-6e3acf8008ac@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 22:52:28 -0000 On 2/14/21 4:46 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > And my question is/was: why is this always left out or postponed? Because some people are more concerned with appearance than reality, or more concerned with being able to pat themselves on the back than to actually make IETF more inclusive. From nobody Sun Feb 14 14:54:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3D23A0CE8 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:54:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.005 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.005 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITOTrCOgpMR7 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07F323A0CE7 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 14:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 775885C0083 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:54:34 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=EFAXYn mthnsainglxFMs/P2UKgvWOma3JtmQI3Cy10w=; b=e2p53qUsvDqAojeyTpJDv3 uPhYl89Uxo968k7mFTK5/ncftqavUEOMuwDWZl07PNOlcpeHzlnH8G+SMZddBGTK XFYUBTtQ5rnbxNcYggQwSmlOjibLQA31KY791e+bSjm/HGDSccpo/D1nLRnkMY9v BwIZ1l6WHT/92x4/1KsYPl4Q8JO0pDXcHUGic53gioGTOoTHBtLyUNBYJzpuyXh/ lHtErQI5HeknwCabUJHtW/nphAqNKkKwAX82QWBx92ZhMTPPtqcdDV+NNbQGxzhH I74EqdGybdPcDNqPiKfN2Sq6ZEqmjWgx8v0OunTpf8+KKtw2gpuUuljsNQSMZ0Gw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieeigddtfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtderre dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhr khdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevfeetudeigedtle dvvddtudefjeejffdvfeetjeeiueelgfdtgfegtdffkeetudenucfkphepuddtkedrvddv uddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E8A68108005B for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:54:33 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <215d78f0-81c0-4329-8619-4d11816ebd92@dogfood.fastmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <64b19dc3-b19a-0e5d-79fb-c9c442b56cb6@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:54:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <215d78f0-81c0-4329-8619-4d11816ebd92@dogfood.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4E7DA46455BDFE013BAB347B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 22:54:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4E7DA46455BDFE013BAB347B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/14/21 5:01 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > To those who strongly oppose this charter and this working group - I > would urge you to look at this as a circuit breaker to absorb some of > this energy and to make our documents more readable to those who care > about such things, rather than as a capitulation to all that is > censorious in the world. With respect, I think such a WG will do exactly the opposite - it will generate energy that harms IETF's ability to do its work. --------------4E7DA46455BDFE013BAB347B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 2/14/21 5:01 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote:

To those who strongly oppose this charter and this working group - I would urge you to look at this as a circuit breaker to absorb some of this energy and to make our documents more readable to those who care about such things, rather than as a capitulation to all that is censorious in the world.

With respect, I think such a WG will do exactly the opposite - it will generate energy that harms IETF's ability to do its work.


--------------4E7DA46455BDFE013BAB347B-- From nobody Sun Feb 14 15:01:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C89A3A0D08 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 15:01:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=CgDNEWE0; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Li4XEltD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id psuorVELjI0O for ; 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Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:00:57 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <466082e7-8a0c-9ee3-3ca7-c43ddba4f615@network-heretics.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:00:55 +1100 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7FB39CEF-EC79-4FB8-8DE2-E79ED39E6112@mnot.net> References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> <5a15dfa3-394c-a1ad-d97e-0b3db7e6e27b@gmail.com> <16802d72-4429-342b-d3d4-6e3acf8008ac@si6networks.com> <466082e7-8a0c-9ee3-3ca7-c43ddba4f615@network-heretics.com> To: Keith Moore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 23:01:02 -0000 Keith, > On 15 Feb 2021, at 9:52 am, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > On 2/14/21 4:46 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 >> And my question is/was: why is this always left out or postponed?=20 >=20 > Because some people are more concerned with appearance than reality, = or more concerned with being able to pat themselves on the back than to = actually make IETF more inclusive. You're ascribing motives to other people. Doing so destroys good faith = in the process here. Please stop. -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Feb 14 15:01:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A063A0D12 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 15:01:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UFr8HGwT-Zfc for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 15:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8550B3A0D07 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 15:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6245C008F; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:01:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=yrSNh1njmMD+PqmoqnnO+zjlwlFea2DkSwWqGrrg7 GI=; b=McwJE31BfCEwR0l3A4wZRRef5GkNtQHVI7ASPdH3XkIaS+ylBqtGDGY6l JO/g5x22S51tiPQYoaLeIv6RltvbboljBaeMtWctsETfL6F+L8rHafnqoOc5PCqz vedjiYV6DXAR6rR1epLBmb/UKdDV0rTE8+TvVOeVbVsHYhN7xjjUIZHbb7CrLkp2 gxPgUi7yTtxCifk55rVs5Tcg+KZ1N4cYjJp0gIhCb4S3YJTsoOTNHSHkCuySsZuw O7m4fWVOGNQAO3iIEO7qud/jIWr5cbXIesI8WwZ3hY9L1WWTGkLeS2D4/MWttZlY GgD92pLMaYrTb4rXTqNvuO+CG+L2g== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieeigddtgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhh ucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekvdeggfelueelkeeuhfffheeghffhkeeuvdduudeihfeh udefffdtgfdtkeffgfenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 68B8D1080059; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:01:45 -0500 (EST) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> <5a15dfa3-394c-a1ad-d97e-0b3db7e6e27b@gmail.com> <16802d72-4429-342b-d3d4-6e3acf8008ac@si6networks.com> <466082e7-8a0c-9ee3-3ca7-c43ddba4f615@network-heretics.com> <7FB39CEF-EC79-4FB8-8DE2-E79ED39E6112@mnot.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7b1e8123-8d21-6ff1-5116-680f4f5de99a@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:01:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7FB39CEF-EC79-4FB8-8DE2-E79ED39E6112@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 23:01:51 -0000 On 2/14/21 6:00 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Keith, > >> On 15 Feb 2021, at 9:52 am, Keith Moore wrote: >> >> On 2/14/21 4:46 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> >>> And my question is/was: why is this always left out or postponed? >> Because some people are more concerned with appearance than reality, or more concerned with being able to pat themselves on the back than to actually make IETF more inclusive. > You're ascribing motives to other people. Doing so destroys good faith in the process here. Please stop. Ok, fair. Keith From nobody Sun Feb 14 20:17:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221EB3A1209; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:17:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rTsAkXjaioBv; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4FB23A1208; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.96.153]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 11F4H91J012238 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:17:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1613362642; x=1613449042; i=@elandsys.com; bh=cexvLFFmUnHHpFqNOAiQ1f9k3HjD7px2lYAAjvoojuY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=KRl3jXt0dgczUu1B3apYJDB+kyC+7UQ7IY13s1bVbnqgH3bVb7/qylbAzR747/EKu 0z7G+fz1Ge1Pgc14n6afcVrmGsaDfowFGmp1cpjnP/IWy1BLE9T0XACFO6ssdWBeUh VGxnT+toqKieAa/5xh7iKXrgqevbrLQGyv8Justg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210214195141.1371a9d0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:15:00 -0800 To: Jay Daley , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 04:17:28 -0000 Dear Mr Daley, At 12:24 PM 14-02-2021, Jay Daley wrote: >Having wealthy, credentialed, [removed] people take the issue of >diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and >publicly change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor >disempowering, but rather it is both heartening and solidarity >building. The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, [removed] >people not wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are >racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore >the historic impact of racism. To use modern terminology, the >difference is between feeling "safe" and "unsafe". > >This wariness directly affects participation - if there is a >decision to be made on where to direct resources then (on average) >the "unsafe" organisation loses out. How does the wariness affect IETF participation? Is the (current) IETF viewed as an "unsafe" organisation? What is your opinion about https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/edu-team/aXsNAGUHJe_nPGKxebRS7GdCXzU/ Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Mon Feb 15 01:14:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F663A0F61 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:14:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QKnAIPF0k_gm for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:14:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D6E43A0F5E for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:14:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6888; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1613380447; x=1614590047; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=fctAPaHA6ZzmgVBQBF08LuywE9ezuLoAzeWxD/+ORJo=; b=YIdFyU85Fm6F0FnfF4YZUgm5P++PYTpK8z1I+3qZ3fYBkp9s/fy8CutO QOCWfD2WEiKUoAhTlq0ymgZbE2ih2D+9c4mA8s+xTpT8r9LfY7K8Qg3RS wrgNIG8tmQERXG3d7R7EqYhBJR65vYPq4udi7vPuVZOiCXeMTC51a0Ti/ k=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BkAACWOipgjBbLJq1iHQEBAQEJARIBBQUBgX0GAQsBg?= =?us-ascii?q?XWCAQEnEjGEQYkEiCklA4EFkyWGIYF8BAcBAQEKAwEBNAQBAYRNAoIIJjYHD?= =?us-ascii?q?gIDAQEBAwIDAQEBAQUBAQECAQYEFAEBAQGGR4ZEAQEBAwEjTggFCwsECgoqA?= =?us-ascii?q?gJXBhMUC4JRAYJmIK8GdoEyhViEZxCBOAGBUoUoAYZGFiyCAoERJwwQgVlJN?= =?us-ascii?q?T6EFYM/NIIrBIFlgQ86GxcRGRktfRElcpxRnEiDBIMqgTqXJgMfgzGKSIVGj?= =?us-ascii?q?26ObaJzYoNzAgQGBQIWgVwHKoFZMxoIGxU7KgGCPj4SGQ2OKw4JjihAAy83A?= =?us-ascii?q?gYBCQEBAwmJT4JEAQE?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,180,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="33464284" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 15 Feb 2021 09:14:02 +0000 Received: from [10.61.223.22] ([10.61.223.22]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11F9E2bK017135 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:14:02 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <39EC4FFE-98B5-4128-AAD0-EF6BE5E9A7EB@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A82B52F3-20C9-4826-8597-BBF546BE3B41"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:14:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7FB39CEF-EC79-4FB8-8DE2-E79ED39E6112@mnot.net> Cc: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Mark Nottingham References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6d506fc0-1437-fe12-f397-cf71e92da3b8@si6networks.com> <5a15dfa3-394c-a1ad-d97e-0b3db7e6e27b@gmail.com> <16802d72-4429-342b-d3d4-6e3acf8008ac@si6networks.com> <466082e7-8a0c-9ee3-3ca7-c43ddba4f615@network-heretics.com> <7FB39CEF-EC79-4FB8-8DE2-E79ED39E6112@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.223.22, [10.61.223.22] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:14:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A82B52F3-20C9-4826-8597-BBF546BE3B41 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_78D597ED-C06B-4E37-B3EA-1CFC2A473961" --Apple-Mail=_78D597ED-C06B-4E37-B3EA-1CFC2A473961 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 15 Feb 2021, at 00:00, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >>> And my question is/was: why is this always left out or postponed? >>=20 >> Because some people are more concerned with appearance than reality, = or more concerned with being able to pat themselves on the back than to = actually make IETF more inclusive. >=20 > You're ascribing motives to other people. Doing so destroys good faith = in the process here. Please stop. I fervently agree. I=E2=80=99ve seen no evidence that anyone in this = group or even throughout the IETF community is acting in any manner = other than what they perceive to be for the common good. People just = have different ideas on how to get there, and we=E2=80=99re all = passionate about our positions. That being said, there is a huge risk that this is exactly how this = effort those of others is being perceived by a great many people, when = the much harder work goes unaddressed. To that end, I think it would be = helpful for the IETF to at least acknowledge the harder work that both = has gone on and needs to continue. A great many people have worked to = make the IETF accessible to others. The IETF is perhaps the most = accessible standards body, when one considers our openness, mentoring = programs, past partnership with ISOC to bring in fellows, and regional = activities that have been supported by people like Fernando, Alvaro, and = Dhruv. But this is an uphill battle, and we must acknowledge that as = well. Having at least a shopping list of other things that could be = done to make matters a bit better would certainly not kill us. To that end, my suggestion is a slight shift in the charter, to permit = but not require, that such a shopping list be allowed to be developed in = the form of an informational draft. Some of the work that needs to = happen is beyond our scope of control. Saying that is also ok. Someone = (and this time it won=E2=80=99t be me) will need to take the pen on such = a draft. To Stephen, yes this is a minor increase in scope. But it is = very limited, and allows an opportunity for people to express in a = structured way what they see as more important issues that need to be = covered. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_78D597ED-C06B-4E37-B3EA-1CFC2A473961 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 15 Feb 2021, at 00:00, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> = wrote:

And my = question is/was: why is this always left out or postponed?

Because some people are more = concerned with appearance than reality, or more concerned with being = able to pat themselves on the back than to actually make IETF more = inclusive.

You're ascribing = motives to other people. Doing so destroys good faith in the process = here. Please stop.


I = fervently agree.  I=E2=80=99ve seen no evidence that anyone in this = group or even throughout the IETF community is acting in any manner = other than what they perceive to be for the common good.  People = just have different ideas on how to get there, and we=E2=80=99re all = passionate about our positions.

That being said, there is a huge risk = that this is exactly how this effort those of others is being perceived = by a great many people, when the much harder work goes unaddressed. =  To that end, I think it would be helpful for the IETF to at least = acknowledge the harder work that both has gone on and needs to = continue.  A great many people have worked to make the IETF = accessible to others.  The IETF is perhaps the most accessible standards body, when one = considers our openness, mentoring programs, past partnership = with ISOC to bring in fellows, and regional activities that have = been supported by people like Fernando, Alvaro, and Dhruv.  But = this is an uphill battle, and we must acknowledge that as well. =  Having at least a shopping list of other things that could be done = to make matters a bit better would certainly not kill us.

To that end, my = suggestion is a slight shift in the charter, to permit but not require, that such = a shopping list be allowed to be developed in the form of an = informational draft.   Some of the work that needs to happen is = beyond our scope of control.  Saying that is also ok.  Someone = (and this time it won=E2=80=99t be me) will need to take the pen on such = a draft.  To Stephen, yes this is a minor increase in scope. =  But it is very limited, and allows an opportunity for people to = express in a structured way what they see as more important issues that = need to be covered.

Eliot

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Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <39EC4FFE-98B5-4128-AAD0-EF6BE5E9A7EB@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A8B73D20B5298372F9A0046B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:06:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A8B73D20B5298372F9A0046B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/15/21 4:14 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > To that end, my suggestion is a slight shift in the charter, to > *permit* but not *require*, that such a shopping list be allowed to be > developed in the form of an informational draft. Please no.   There shouldn't even be a WG, it's just going to prolong an effort which is counterproductive to increasing inclusion in IETF. --------------A8B73D20B5298372F9A0046B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 2/15/21 4:14 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

To that end, my suggestion is a slight shift in the charter, to permit but not require, that such a shopping list be allowed to be developed in the form of an informational draft. 

Please no.   There shouldn't even be a WG, it's just going to prolong an effort which is counterproductive to increasing inclusion in IETF. 



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A few notes related to comments made = in the thread thus far: (1) There were several documents proposed on this topic last year and in = previous years. The GENDISPATCH process was run, including two virtual = interim meetings focused specifically on this topic, and the result of = that process was rough consensus to have a quick-spin WG to produce an = informational document on this topic [1]. Re-hashing the dispatch = discussion is not useful. Specific edits or suggestions about the = charter text are useful. Thanks to those who have already provided = suggestions. (2) Of note in [1] is Francesca and Pete=E2=80=99s observation about the = proposed WG deliverable that "there were concerns about describing = motivations in such a document for fear of =E2=80=98ratholing=E2=80=99.=E2= =80=9D Those concerns seem to apply equally to this charter discussion. = Since there was significant discussion about motivations during the = GENDISPATCH process last year, perhaps it would be better to avoid that = discussion to the extent possible in the chartering phase as well. (3) Regarding diversity and inclusion, there is so much more work to do, = and there are many places in the IETF constellation where components of = that work can be done: WGs, EMODIR, the NomCom, the LLC, the IAB. = Detailed proposals for specific pieces of work or new programs or ideas = targeting any or multiple of these bodies are welcome, and a = comprehensive analysis as a baseline is a great idea. It is = disheartening, though, to see claims that nothing has been been done to = increase diversity and inclusion in the IETF, because the many = volunteers and staff who have put time and energy into the existing = initiatives deserve credit for their work. The expanded and revamped = newcomers program, the consensus publication of RFC 8719 and RFC 7776, = the expansion of the systers networking events, the ANRP and ANRW, and a = couple of travel/attendance assistance programs that were in the works = for 2020 pre-pandemic are all examples of institution-level initiatives. = These complement many other individual initiatives: regional and local = mailing lists, remote hubs, selection of diverse WG chairs (which I have = tried to make a priority personally), training for NomCom members, etc. = Each of these on their own is small and together they do not amount to = nearly enough, but we should acknowledge that they exist. Thanks, Alissa [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/iHDh7KBVRvGB2EWKYYh11LjP= 95E/ > On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:39 PM, Sean Turner wrote: >=20 > Hi!, >=20 > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >=20 > Cheers, > spt >=20 > ---------- >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents.=20 >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF.=20 >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Mon Feb 15 07:22:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF2F33A0C56 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 07:22:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:35:23 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:35:23 -0500 References: <9ED61E90-CC72-431B-BB41-7801262A75AC@cooperw.in> To: GENDISPATCH List In-Reply-To: <9ED61E90-CC72-431B-BB41-7801262A75AC@cooperw.in> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:35:28 -0000 I forgot to mention that I added some recent references to = https://github.com/ietf/terminology/ =E2=80=94 3GPP, the IEEE 1588 PAR, = CNCF, Bluetooth SIG =E2=80=94 but there have likely been other = developments so please send PRs if you=E2=80=99re aware of others. Thanks, Alissa > On Feb 15, 2021, at 10:21 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >=20 > Hi Sean, all, >=20 > Thanks for proposing this charter. A few notes related to comments = made in the thread thus far: >=20 > (1) There were several documents proposed on this topic last year and = in previous years. The GENDISPATCH process was run, including two = virtual interim meetings focused specifically on this topic, and the = result of that process was rough consensus to have a quick-spin WG to = produce an informational document on this topic [1]. Re-hashing the = dispatch discussion is not useful. Specific edits or suggestions about = the charter text are useful. Thanks to those who have already provided = suggestions. >=20 > (2) Of note in [1] is Francesca and Pete=E2=80=99s observation about = the proposed WG deliverable that "there were concerns about describing = motivations in such a document for fear of =E2=80=98ratholing=E2=80=99.=E2= =80=9D Those concerns seem to apply equally to this charter discussion. = Since there was significant discussion about motivations during the = GENDISPATCH process last year, perhaps it would be better to avoid that = discussion to the extent possible in the chartering phase as well. >=20 > (3) Regarding diversity and inclusion, there is so much more work to = do, and there are many places in the IETF constellation where components = of that work can be done: WGs, EMODIR, the NomCom, the LLC, the IAB. = Detailed proposals for specific pieces of work or new programs or ideas = targeting any or multiple of these bodies are welcome, and a = comprehensive analysis as a baseline is a great idea. It is = disheartening, though, to see claims that nothing has been been done to = increase diversity and inclusion in the IETF, because the many = volunteers and staff who have put time and energy into the existing = initiatives deserve credit for their work. The expanded and revamped = newcomers program, the consensus publication of RFC 8719 and RFC 7776, = the expansion of the systers networking events, the ANRP and ANRW, and a = couple of travel/attendance assistance programs that were in the works = for 2020 pre-pandemic are all examples of institution-level initiatives. = These complement many other individual initiatives: regional and local = mailing lists, remote hubs, selection of diverse WG chairs (which I have = tried to make a priority personally), training for NomCom members, etc. = Each of these on their own is small and together they do not amount to = nearly enough, but we should acknowledge that they exist. >=20 > Thanks, > Alissa >=20 > [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/iHDh7KBVRvGB2EWKYYh11LjP= 95E/ >=20 >> On Feb 11, 2021, at 3:39 PM, Sean Turner wrote: >>=20 >> Hi!, >>=20 >> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> spt >>=20 >> ---------- >>=20 >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >>=20 >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. >>=20 >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, = there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, = and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents.=20 >>=20 >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF.=20 >>=20 >> Milestones: >>=20 >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations=20 >> --=20 >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Mon Feb 15 09:20:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0F43A0E05 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:20:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7DLa_A0yRph for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:20:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5993E3A0E02 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:20:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60116FB1 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:20:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=HSoE+E0wxKCteZW82bhwZI1CAo4Vc8Fb2syUKiGgV Pk=; b=k/okTndHNTgmujftmOnYtPkcY6wmoVC2m3tiHblYYceihuP/SC15y7Y8n lfTL8lpcQsT18XcuDXLsmDO12QyrTF1j81vqNan3VMbW0GJFQ0yKO4f23VicmrCs SiCNcQxJqr6q+XUV/DbedBMkeyZMdTtqRp0HGeiIaTP+M2xjiBRoWW54YF18M+0A I4BoASZHLh+qAuzmKesypzuj2Hfh56VYoq3AsRCh4FFzFPQXNoIOFRejwv5Y8bHD LgF9XTDVmTRUV+AFZmxqAxBeDoqD5YzJCHRs0HlR/cWb3Lh4XwUKw+3RJ/xzg1JB XNkF5dv0tEMjUalHWagG9nholc+aA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrieekgdelgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkedvgefgleeule ekuefhffehgefhhfekuedvudduiefhhedufefftdfgtdekfffgnecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1A90B240057 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:20:41 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <9ED61E90-CC72-431B-BB41-7801262A75AC@cooperw.in> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <120cbf69-f901-1ddc-1864-006b22fb9c81@network-heretics.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:20:39 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 17:20:44 -0000 On 2/15/21 10:35 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > (1) There were several documents proposed on this topic last year and in previous years. The GENDISPATCH process was run, including two virtual interim meetings focused specifically on this topic, and the result of that process was rough consensus to have a quick-spin WG to produce an informational document on this topic [1]. Re-hashing the dispatch discussion is not useful. Just for clarification, are you saying that this WG is a done deal and that the normal community review of a new WG will be skipped in this case? Keith From nobody Mon Feb 15 09:23:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08DE3A0E07 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:23:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.187 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.187 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nJxCL-KgMm8E for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FE063A0E06 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id r21so9829687wrr.9 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:23:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=fbb1Sxk59UrhbuVrwnhJucdw4vMdqyQa7KqaXlfsF/c=; b=KjsgpGthGfrrLAGJAh963nUUbtumU04G9pYkIpGRfnzMunUr15NivYPb6iPbfGaKVu J3k42hSmdJy9ZWhW64N0THVOZbIoKrk1i2TvDiERXmF6rY+9lMg03fueHtgxYEkdTm8O 2UTuu1FqNafzlnKR7l5vh9TEAg9OpxSurfrSed6NF1Iy/3+o/f3p0awkICgq/qSRl4hA dAsXvcMffUs05MJ2lSPGtHcbuAFitesXihwIL90e0MCLvhNWKq7nmdDhLSrNSbqxLIRW QKIHRj2eLyZYrCZ/NcTeQM/Sgi98z1afXhulDNEIVJXPmmZiZ0AOC3N+ycnYRCJW1mxa I57Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=fbb1Sxk59UrhbuVrwnhJucdw4vMdqyQa7KqaXlfsF/c=; b=p0n0HYA499m8ys7hGbCthyLGk04tA2GyTBA4B5V36Rr1NjpztlEeGGKUoDkNg2EYTg yljy/bghfDI93zLIo8P5vo0F0VvIAWR9mG95dZkZPgHHtqh1wvCZccWJnkP2+d34ITua qxCDEd+F1khlHSJz8FalQomZ+LHS7ekbnxBFf8DhKe6G0uQBm6Rq0gz0anDjgUpeFM1Z 6KKyJCoEQmDhS2eJWMWfbU9Sme9fV5wPh9JY65SEUia5FQIPAPbk2WyBsFESbc67LbLf NYdEsMM8I+xpafItOLra3ccZLS6PCG7bnf4+pzuUavXc71GstRff5zSBrdFLSd6zz3h8 296w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531g9Y0bupi5hq+bkYfMzVAWDaR6RoKe4FQ9/5sPXaqon/ENGmT5 4lclrnK/B+W4s0iZRMW5nr8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzUkEDhGI+a5B9OZi8W6tGcVE+QFx7nJq+C3MwN34qh9+DGaQYDDBQLwM+rxrBjCGouCxUEdg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:9504:: with SMTP id 4mr19493102wrs.306.1613409790997; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w25sm25492768wmc.42.2021.02.15.09.23.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:23:10 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0DBEAD51-3E52-490B-A6A4-7E0B0E70E5E7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:23:06 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Christian Huitema , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Fernando Gont References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 17:23:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0DBEAD51-3E52-490B-A6A4-7E0B0E70E5E7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Fernando, > On Feb 14, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Fernando Gont = wrote: >=20 > On 14/2/21 14:46, Bob Hinden wrote: > [...] >> I agree. >> I also think that diversity in the IETF and language in RFCs are = mostly different topics. >> Diversity in the IETF is about who participates in the IETF, = increasing participation in the IETF, etc. RFCs are used by a much = broader Internet community that the folks who participate in the IETF. >=20 >=20 > Focusing on this, while ignoring the rest, reads a lot like "let's be = nice in our documents while we keep people excluded from participating" = to me. No, not at all. I think I was clear to say they are different topics. = I did not say anything like you suggested, that is: "let's be nice in our documents while we keep people excluded from = participating" We should be working on both topics separately. Bob >=20 >=20 > I'm curious if I'm the only one that finds it awkward (?) that what = seems to be a group of (probably 100%) privileged white people from = developed countries think their are doing a favor to people of different = skin color, with none from said community participating, and none of the = things that probably caused said group to be under-represented are even = in the agenda to be addressed? >=20 > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_0DBEAD51-3E52-490B-A6A4-7E0B0E70E5E7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmAqrfsACgkQrut0EXfn u6giMAgAl38cOAwCc6uD3W+EgposFJb5W+TDhBNuHtETLMbGx/nDgj1AtD+J57gq 7nnx9k3mA/+EAFwGNLI88UWEmwtijkNC5RqCSrZUANNFB4niI3CiaMC2yd5H0qrp x5+sWhL/s+qNa+/a3SURygDACeiHyoCiXBYe+pDVRKHmRC0xSqVTH3D3S4WT3A3y +dwU9C3dL6BEEdN4T7KtQdvtE79XNU2umYKdvTKWYbRolSSzOq1Aga1iFo7Oyvlt cudl3nX2RMNx2QTej3V38EeNR1xU8YiLO9WNKnV99rYhC9k7OazXQhV2ISFJdCsm Skq3MkE6CS2U56sz0UH6cpBIKe1gFg== =HArP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0DBEAD51-3E52-490B-A6A4-7E0B0E70E5E7-- From nobody Mon Feb 15 10:13:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489313A0E93 for ; 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Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:13:37 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:13:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:13:41 -0000 [this is an actual review of the draft charter text] Please don't cite "master/slave" as an example that might have an effect on inclusivity, because at least "master" is extremely dubious.   (I don't object to using the world "slave" as an example.) "blacklist" might not be a great example either, especially given the historical association of that term with censorship and oppression of views in Hollywood and elsewhere.   Censoring the term blacklist in order to promote censorship would seem ironic at best. I don't think this WG should be trying to reinterpret existing words in its deliberations, because IETF participants are not language experts.    Instead, it should rely on well-accepted definitions by multiple lexicographers or other researchers who try to accurately document existing usage rather than change the meanings of terms to promote a political agenda.   But I do think it's okay to realize that times change and word preferences change with the times. I appreciate that the name and title of the WG don't mention inclusivity or diversity, so maybe there's less risk of this group being tagged as the "diversity" working group and having its agenda expanded far beyond the claimed focus of this effort. I would like to see a milestone for completion around October 2021. Keith On 2/11/21 3:39 PM, Sean Turner wrote: > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF. > > Milestones: > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations From nobody Mon Feb 15 10:44:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74CD83A0F46 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:44:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:44:05 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <120cbf69-f901-1ddc-1864-006b22fb9c81@network-heretics.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:44:04 -0500 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <616008F4-9030-442D-8BC4-8B829874983F@cooperw.in> References: <9ED61E90-CC72-431B-BB41-7801262A75AC@cooperw.in> <120cbf69-f901-1ddc-1864-006b22fb9c81@network-heretics.com> To: Keith Moore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:44:08 -0000 Hi Keith, > On Feb 15, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > On 2/15/21 10:35 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >=20 >> (1) There were several documents proposed on this topic last year and = in previous years. The GENDISPATCH process was run, including two = virtual interim meetings focused specifically on this topic, and the = result of that process was rough consensus to have a quick-spin WG to = produce an informational document on this topic [1]. Re-hashing the = dispatch discussion is not useful. >=20 > Just for clarification, are you saying that this WG is a done deal and = that the normal community review of a new WG will be skipped in this = case? No. Alissa >=20 > Keith >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Mon Feb 15 10:57:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837CC3A102E for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:57:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hd-S-K7gn5NR; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22B533A0FED; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:57:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <5D0D352B-AFD2-43FD-924B-60F80BE5F88D@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_699AC1EF-6807-4E71-B237-4B092B911BCF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 07:57:02 +1300 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20210214195141.1371a9d0@elandnews.com> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: S Moonesamy References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20210214195141.1371a9d0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:57:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_699AC1EF-6807-4E71-B237-4B092B911BCF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 15/02/2021, at 5:15 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: >=20 > Dear Mr Daley, > At 12:24 PM 14-02-2021, Jay Daley wrote: >> Having wealthy, credentialed, [removed] I notice that you=E2=80=99ve removed the word "white" without explaining = why and yet by doing so, implying that I used it inappropriately. You = should be aware that actions like that come across to me as a = manipulative trick and generally I would not respond to such a message. = However, as you may not be aware of that reaction, I will respond below. >> people take the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough = to try to explicitly and publicly change their behaviours is to me = neither patronising nor disempowering, but rather it is both heartening = and solidarity building. The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, = [removed] people not wishing to do that makes me wary that either they = are racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore = the historic impact of racism. To use modern terminology, the = difference is between feeling "safe" and "unsafe". >>=20 >> This wariness directly affects participation - if there is a decision = to be made on where to direct resources then (on average) the "unsafe" = organisation loses out. >=20 > How does the wariness affect IETF participation? As explained above - where a decision needs to be made on how to = allocate scarce resources, "unsafe" organisations lose out. >=20 > Is the (current) IETF viewed as an "unsafe" organisation? I don=E2=80=99t know. I also don=E2=80=99t know if anyone has conducted = the necessary level of outreach to answer that. >=20 > What is your opinion about = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/edu-team/aXsNAGUHJe_nPGKxebRS7GdCXzU= / Measurement and publication of data is an important mechanism in this = context. Jay >=20 > Regards, > S. Moonesamy=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_699AC1EF-6807-4E71-B237-4B092B911BCF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 15/02/2021, at 5:15 PM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:

Dear = Mr Daley,
At 12:24 PM 14-02-2021, Jay Daley wrote:
Having wealthy, = credentialed, [removed]

I notice that you=E2=80=99ve removed the word = "white" without explaining why and yet by doing so, implying that I used = it inappropriately.  You should be aware that actions like that = come across to me as a manipulative trick and generally I would not = respond to such a message.  However, as you may not be aware of = that reaction, I will respond below.

people take the issue of diversity and = inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly change = their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor disempowering, but = rather it is both heartening and solidarity building.  The = alternative of wealthy, credentialed, [removed] people not wishing to do = that makes me wary that either they are racist, or sympathise with = racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism. =  To use modern terminology, the difference is between feeling = "safe" and "unsafe".

This wariness directly = affects participation - if there is a decision to be made on where to = direct resources then (on average) the "unsafe" organisation loses = out.

How does the wariness = affect IETF participation?
As explained above - where a decision needs to be = made on how to allocate scarce resources, "unsafe" organisations lose = out.


Is the (current) IETF viewed = as an "unsafe" organisation?

I = don=E2=80=99t know.  I also don=E2=80=99t know if anyone has = conducted the necessary level of outreach to answer that.


What is your opinion about https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/edu-team/aXsNAGUHJe_nPGKx= ebRS7GdCXzU/

Measurement and publication of data is an = important mechanism in this context.

Jay


Regards,
S. Moonesamy
--
Gendispatch = mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_699AC1EF-6807-4E71-B237-4B092B911BCF-- From nobody Mon Feb 15 11:37:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8300C3A104A; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:37:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9iJkqmrgkfaT; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 380A63A1047; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOL0AYHM56RA6@wwwlocal.goatley.com>; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:37:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOL007JD54ON0@trixy.bergandi.net>; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:36:25 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:37:37 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210215] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 19:37:41 -0000 Jay, On 2/14/21 12:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > Speaking as a non-white person with extensive personal experience of > racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to address: > > Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity > and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly > change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor > disempowering, but rather it is both heartening and solidarity > building. The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not > wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are racist, or > sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic > impact of racism. You are ascribing motives and abhorrent beliefs to other people. Doing so destroys good faith in the process here. Please stop. Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Mon Feb 15 11:49:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8C23A106F for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:49:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d6YDikAGEUYb for ; 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Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:49:23 -0800 (PST) To: Alissa Cooper , Sean Turner Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <9ED61E90-CC72-431B-BB41-7801262A75AC@cooperw.in> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:49:19 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9ED61E90-CC72-431B-BB41-7801262A75AC@cooperw.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 19:49:26 -0000 QWxpc3NhLA0KT24gMTYtRmViLTIxIDA0OjIxLCBBbGlzc2EgQ29vcGVyIHdyb3RlOg0KLi4u PiAoMykgUmVnYXJkaW5nIGRpdmVyc2l0eSBhbmQgaW5jbHVzaW9uLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBzbyBt dWNoIG1vcmUgd29yayB0byBkbywgYW5kIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBtYW55IHBsYWNlcyBpbiB0aGUg SUVURiBjb25zdGVsbGF0aW9uIHdoZXJlIGNvbXBvbmVudHMgb2YgdGhhdCB3b3JrIGNhbiBi ZSBkb25lOiBXR3MsIEVNT0RJUiwgdGhlIE5vbUNvbSwgdGhlIExMQywgdGhlIElBQi4gRGV0 YWlsZWQgcHJvcG9zYWxzIGZvciBzcGVjaWZpYyBwaWVjZXMgb2Ygd29yayBvciBuZXcgcHJv Z3JhbXMgb3IgaWRlYXMgdGFyZ2V0aW5nIGFueSBvciBtdWx0aXBsZSBvZiB0aGVzZSBib2Rp ZXMgYXJlIHdlbGNvbWUsIGFuZCBhIGNvbXByZWhlbnNpdmUgYW5hbHlzaXMgYXMgYSBiYXNl bGluZSBpcyBhIGdyZWF0IGlkZWEuIEl0IGlzIGRpc2hlYXJ0ZW5pbmcsIHRob3VnaCwgdG8g c2VlIGNsYWltcyB0aGF0IG5vdGhpbmcgaGFzIGJlZW4gYmVlbiBkb25lIHRvIGluY3JlYXNl IGRpdmVyc2l0eSBhbmQgaW5jbHVzaW9uIGluIHRoZSBJRVRGLCBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZSBtYW55 IHZvbHVudGVlcnMgYW5kIHN0YWZmIHdobyBoYXZlIHB1dCB0aW1lIGFuZCBlbmVyZ3kgaW50 byB0aGUgZXhpc3RpbmcgaW5pdGlhdGl2ZXMgZGVzZXJ2ZSBjcmVkaXQgZm9yIHRoZWlyIHdv cmsuIFRoZSBleHBhbmRlZCBhbmQgcmV2YW1wZWQgbmV3Y29tZXJzIHByb2dyYW0sIHRoZSBj b25zZW5zdXMgcHVibGljYXRpb24gb2YgUkZDIDg3MTkgYW5kIFJGQyA3Nzc2LCB0aGUgZXhw YW5zaW9uIG9mIHRoZSBzeXN0ZXJzIG5ldHdvcmtpbmcgZXZlbnRzLCB0aGUgQU5SUCBhbmQg QU5SVywgYW5kIGEgY291cGxlIG9mIHRyYXZlbC9hdHRlbmRhbmNlIGFzc2lzdGFuY2UgcHJv Z3JhbXMgdGhhdCB3ZXJlIGluIHRoZSB3b3JrcyBmb3IgMjAyMCBwcmUtcGFuZGVtaWMgYXJl IGFsbCBleGFtcGxlcyBvZiBpbnN0aXR1dGlvbi1sZXZlbCBpbml0aWF0aXZlcy4gVGhlc2Ug Y29tcGxlbWVudCBtYW55IG90aGVyIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgaW5pdGlhdGl2ZXM6IHJlZ2lvbmFs IGFuZCBsb2NhbCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3RzLCByZW1vdGUgaHVicywgc2VsZWN0aW9uIG9mIGRp dmVyc2UgV0cgY2hhaXJzICh3aGljaCBJIGhhdmUgdHJpZWQgdG8gbWFrZSBhIHByaW9yaXR5 IHBlcnNvbmFsbHkpLCB0cmFpbmluZyBmb3IgTm9tQ29tIG1lbWJlcnMsIGV0Yy4gRWFjaCBv ZiB0aGVzZSBvbiB0aGVpciBvd24gaXMgc21hbGwgYW5kIHRvZ2V0aGVyIHRoZXkgZG8gbm90 IGFtb3VudCB0byBuZWFybHkgZW5vdWdoLCBidXQgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGFja25vd2xlZGdlIHRo YXQgdGhleSBleGlzdC4NCg0KWWVzLCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgYWJzb2x1dGVseSByaWdodCwg YnV0IGluIGEgc2Vuc2UgaXQncyBiZWVuIGFuIHVuYW5ub3VuY2VkIHByb2dyYW0sIGFuZCBp dCBzZWVtcyB0byBiZSB0aW1lIHRvIG1ha2UgaXQgZXhwbGljaXQuDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMNCiAg ICBCcmlhbg0K From nobody Mon Feb 15 13:01:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F9B3A1164; 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Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:01:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1613422881; x=1613509281; i=@elandsys.com; bh=MkN6W4GJMXrp+UyqWL5ZdmxjM/N9t0/j+/ICsNzlTD0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=mdmEor1Fw159iDeW7eLv7mBaiVuFy6T7B4x4+NVWzQoSqQimEeLbfbmKlkyU/lLcx 9Rc+WBY9E2mKVOYEXOM7mk1b8XmggdlnOaVtKQh5fEDrz1aCOxYL9kH86B4NRFddDS 0OFBpddTMSwr3fCJTxshpgylMi2jXLD1BwOECjzE= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210215115051.0ba48368@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:59:29 -0800 To: Jay Daley , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <5D0D352B-AFD2-43FD-924B-60F80BE5F88D@ietf.org> References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20210214195141.1371a9d0@elandnews.com> <5D0D352B-AFD2-43FD-924B-60F80BE5F88D@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:01:32 -0000 Dear Mr Daley, At 10:57 AM 15-02-2021, Jay Daley wrote: >I notice that you've removed the word "white" without explaining why >and yet by doing so, implying that I used it inappropriately. You >should be aware that actions like that come across to me as a >manipulative trick and generally I would not respond to such a >message. However, as you may not be aware of that reaction, I will >respond below. I received a comment about eliding a word in 2020. My response is at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/sEa3qmUdM6iRxFD7LLhB23SYQho/ I hope that the explanation is adequate. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Mon Feb 15 13:26:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1293A1193 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:25:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Su16tSztYDD0 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD1453A1190 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9EC2628027D; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:25:50 +0000 (UTC) To: Bob Hinden Cc: Christian Huitema , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <400022e5-ced5-37e0-2765-81ceb6def69c@si6networks.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:17:37 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:25:59 -0000 On 15/2/21 14:23, Bob Hinden wrote: > Fernando, > >> On Feb 14, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> On 14/2/21 14:46, Bob Hinden wrote: >> [...] >>> I agree. >>> I also think that diversity in the IETF and language in RFCs are mostly different topics. >>> Diversity in the IETF is about who participates in the IETF, increasing participation in the IETF, etc. RFCs are used by a much broader Internet community that the folks who participate in the IETF. >> >> >> Focusing on this, while ignoring the rest, reads a lot like "let's be nice in our documents while we keep people excluded from participating" to me. > > No, not at all. I think I was clear to say they are different topics. I did not say anything like you suggested, that is: > > "let's be nice in our documents while we keep people excluded from participating" Just for clarification: I didn't mean that *you* (or, for instance, anybody) were implying that. What I meant is that if the issue of language is associated with improving inclusiveness, and there's no comprehensive approach to try to tackle the problem, it comes across like that. As suggested by others, one possible way out is to remove any references to inclusiveness and diversity when pursuing such work, and simply pursue it as "tackling possibly-offensive language". Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Feb 15 13:26:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4063A11B8 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:26:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kJdqYUPmj1LO for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 139B63A1192 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:1c77:acfc:e6a8:1311]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01FFD280671; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:25:54 +0000 (UTC) To: Alissa Cooper , GENDISPATCH List References: <9ED61E90-CC72-431B-BB41-7801262A75AC@cooperw.in> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:22:34 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:26:04 -0000 Hi, Alissa, On 15/2/21 12:35, Alissa Cooper wrote: > I forgot to mention that I added some recent references to https://github.com/ietf/terminology/ — 3GPP, the IEEE 1588 PAR, CNCF, Bluetooth SIG — but there have likely been other developments so please send PRs if you’re aware of others. Is there some tool in the works (ala id-nits or spellcheck) to check for documents for these terms, and provide suggestions for authors? I might give a try to producing one, if none is already in the works. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Feb 15 13:41:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8491B3A11B8 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lM6tKNA61D4F for ; 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Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:48:27 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-141-gf094924a34-fm-20210210.001-gf094924a Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:48:08 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:48:30 -0000 On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote: > While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is > general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from > informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive > terminology in IETF documents. Hi Sean, Thanks for doing this. The above statement sums it up pretty well. My suggestion is that we go ahead with the work with the charter verbatim. There are a few people who would prefer to be obstructionist here, but our process recognizes the possibility of unresolved dissent and allows us to make resolutions over concerns that have been heard. Clearly people disagree on this topic, but their position has been addressed, if not to their personal satisfaction. Escalating volume and stridency won't change that. 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WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:48:48 -0000 On 16-Feb-21 08:37, Dan Harkins wrote: >=20 > =C2=A0 Jay, >=20 > On 2/14/21 12:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >> Speaking as a non-white person with extensive personal experience of=20 >> racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to address: >> >> Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity= =20 >> and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly=20 >> change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor=20 >> disempowering, but rather it is both heartening and solidarity=20 >> building. =C2=A0The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people= not=20 >> wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are racist, or=20 >> sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic=20 >> impact of racism. >=20 > =C2=A0 You are ascribing motives and abhorrent beliefs to other people= =2E=20 No he's not. He's saying he's *wary*, i.e. cautious and suspicious. Brian From nobody Mon Feb 15 14:49:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE823A1295; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:49:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fjmIlOagZ7cw; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B71A83A1290; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOL0AYK7E23A6@wwwlocal.goatley.com>; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:49:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOL00FLADZZ13@trixy.bergandi.net>; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:48:01 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:49:12 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210215] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 22:49:17 -0000 On 2/15/21 1:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 16-Feb-21 08:37, Dan Harkins wrote: >>   Jay, >> >> On 2/14/21 12:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>> Speaking as a non-white person with extensive personal experience of >>> racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to address: >>> >>> Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity >>> and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly >>> change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor >>> disempowering, but rather it is both heartening and solidarity >>> building.  The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not >>> wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are racist, or >>> sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic >>> impact of racism. >>   You are ascribing motives and abhorrent beliefs to other people. > No he's not. He's saying he's *wary*, i.e. cautious and suspicious.   He's cautious of some problem or potential danger. And what is that problem or potential danger he is wary of? It's people who "are racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism."   Now, Keith Moore got called out for ascribing motives to "some people" who are more concerned with appearance than reality. That vague statement which was hardly even a criticism received a clap back. What Jay did was even more egregious because he named exactly who he says the problems are. Namely, wealthy, credentialed, white people who do not mouth the particular platitudes he wants to hear from them. The alternative to not saying what he wants them to say is that he views them as a potential problem. What a sad, black-and-white world-- you're either with Jay or against Jay.   As a credentialed, white, and (relatively, of course) wealthy person who does not say the kinds of things that Jay is wishing to hear I feel like I can take issue with his statement. He's saying he views me as a potential problem. He's wary of me because the alternative, in his mind, to not repeating the approved platitudes is to be a racist or a racist sympathizer or a diminisher of "the historic impact of racism." Well nuts to that!   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Mon Feb 15 14:52:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B993A12DA for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:52:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XdpPt_vLNOgh for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FF7E3A12CA for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOL0AYKAE7IA6@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:52:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOL00KJRE5E6G@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:51:16 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:52:27 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210215] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 22:52:38 -0000 On 2/15/21 1:48 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote: >> While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is >> general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from >> informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive >> terminology in IETF documents. > Hi Sean, > > Thanks for doing this. The above statement sums it up pretty well. > > My suggestion is that we go ahead with the work with the charter verbatim. There are a few people who would prefer to be obstructionist here   You are ascribing motives to other people. Doing so destroys good faith in the process here. Please stop.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Mon Feb 15 14:58:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8944B3A12A5; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kzSiRhkhvx94; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.33) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint7 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 22:58:43 -0000 PiAgICAgICBBcyBhIGNyZWRlbnRpYWxlZCwgd2hpdGUsIGFuZCAocmVsYXRpdmVseSwgb2YgY291 cnNlKSB3ZWFsdGh5IHBlcnNvbiB3aG8NCiAgICBkb2VzIG5vdCBzYXkgdGhlIGtpbmRzIG9mIHRo aW5ncyB0aGF0IEpheSBpcyB3aXNoaW5nIHRvIGhlYXIgSSBmZWVsIGxpa2UgSQ0KICAgIGNhbiB0 YWtlIGlzc3VlIHdpdGggaGlzIHN0YXRlbWVudC4gSGUncyBzYXlpbmcgaGUgdmlld3MgbWUgYXMg YSBwb3RlbnRpYWwNCiAgICBwcm9ibGVtLiBIZSdzIHdhcnkgb2YgbWUgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGUgYWx0 ZXJuYXRpdmUsIGluIGhpcyBtaW5kLCB0byBub3QNCiAgICByZXBlYXRpbmcgdGhlIGFwcHJvdmVk IHBsYXRpdHVkZXMgaXMgdG8gYmUgYSByYWNpc3Qgb3IgYSByYWNpc3Qgc3ltcGF0aGl6ZXINCiAg ICBvciBhIGRpbWluaXNoZXIgb2YgInRoZSBoaXN0b3JpYyBpbXBhY3Qgb2YgcmFjaXNtLiIgV2Vs bCBudXRzIHRvIHRoYXQhDQoNCkkgYXNzdW1lIHlvdSBjYW4gYXBwcmVjaWF0ZSB0aGUgZGlmZmVy ZW5jZSBiZXR3ZWVuIGFuIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgYW5kIGFuIG9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbi4NCg0KRG8geW91 IHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgSmF5J3Mgbm90ZSBbMV0gd2FzIHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgaW5kaXZpZHVhbHMg b3IgYW4gb3JnYW5pemF0aW9uPw0KDQpbMV0gaHR0cHM6Ly9tYWlsYXJjaGl2ZS5pZXRmLm9yZy9h cmNoL21zZy9nZW5kaXNwYXRjaC9lTnp2TTVvNlF2VktIam1xa3lCTVlfQXh1YUEvDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Feb 15 15:07:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0DC3A12B6; 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Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:06:02 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:07:14 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210215] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:07:18 -0000 On 2/15/21 2:58 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> As a credentialed, white, and (relatively, of course) wealthy person who > does not say the kinds of things that Jay is wishing to hear I feel like I > can take issue with his statement. He's saying he views me as a potential > problem. He's wary of me because the alternative, in his mind, to not > repeating the approved platitudes is to be a racist or a racist sympathizer > or a diminisher of "the historic impact of racism." Well nuts to that! > > I assume you can appreciate the difference between an individual and an organization. > > Do you think that Jay's note [1] was talking about individuals or an organization? > > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/eNzvM5o6QvVKHjmqkyBMY_AxuaA/   The thing I take issue with was directed at "people", a collection of persons. And those persons can be thought of as individuals if you like. Now that group of persons can (partially) make up an organization but that's irrelevant to my beef with Jay's statement.   Why are you wading in to this Rich?   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Mon Feb 15 15:15:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E753A12D6 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:15:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F5Fki9W6Feri; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B54B53A1330; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:15:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7BF85CC2-372E-4587-BCC2-D1C346F42DAA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:15:39 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Dan Harkins References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:15:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7BF85CC2-372E-4587-BCC2-D1C346F42DAA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 16/02/2021, at 11:49 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 2/15/21 1:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 16-Feb-21 08:37, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> Jay, >>>=20 >>> On 2/14/21 12:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>>> Speaking as a non-white person with extensive personal experience = of >>>> racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to address: >>>>=20 >>>> Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of = diversity >>>> and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly >>>> change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor >>>> disempowering, but rather it is both heartening and solidarity >>>> building. The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people = not >>>> wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are racist, or >>>> sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic >>>> impact of racism. >>> You are ascribing motives and abhorrent beliefs to other people. >> No he's not. He's saying he's *wary*, i.e. cautious and suspicious. >=20 > He's cautious of some problem or potential danger. And what is that > problem or potential danger he is wary of? It's people who "are = racist, or > sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic = impact > of racism." >=20 > Now, Keith Moore got called out for ascribing motives to "some = people" > who are more concerned with appearance than reality. That vague = statement > which was hardly even a criticism received a clap back. What Jay did = was > even more egregious because he named exactly who he says the problems = are. > Namely, wealthy, credentialed, white people who do not mouth the = particular > platitudes he wants to hear from them. The alternative to not saying = what > he wants them to say is that he views them as a potential problem. = What a > sad, black-and-white world-- you're either with Jay or against Jay. >=20 > As a credentialed, white, and (relatively, of course) wealthy person = who > does not say the kinds of things that Jay is wishing to hear I feel = like I > can take issue with his statement. He's saying he views me as a = potential > problem. He's wary of me because the alternative, in his mind, to not > repeating the approved platitudes is to be a racist or a racist = sympathizer > or a diminisher of "the historic impact of racism." Well nuts to that! I understand that you might think I am demanding public fealty to a view = you don=E2=80=99t hold and that was not my intent, so let me restate the = second part of my response to the original strawmen in narrower terms: - The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people [a phrase taken = directly from one of the strawmen] obstructing or preventing others from = taking the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to = explicitly and publicly change their behaviours, makes me wary that = either they are racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish = or ignore the historic impact of racism. That should be much clearer. Jay >=20 > Dan. >=20 > --=20 > "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to > escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_7BF85CC2-372E-4587-BCC2-D1C346F42DAA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 16/02/2021, at 11:49 AM, Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>= wrote:


On 2/15/21 1:48 PM, Brian E = Carpenter wrote:
On 16-Feb-21 08:37, Dan Harkins = wrote:
   = Jay,

On 2/14/21 12:24 PM, Jay Daley = wrote:
Speaking as a = non-white person with extensive personal experience of
racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to = address:

Having wealthy, credentialed, = white people take the issue of diversity
and inclusivity = seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly
change = their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor
disempowering, but rather it is both heartening and = solidarity
building.  The alternative of wealthy, = credentialed, white people not
wishing to do that makes me = wary that either they are racist, or
sympathise with = racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic
impact = of racism.
   You are ascribing = motives and abhorrent beliefs to other people.
No he's not. He's saying he's *wary*, i.e. = cautious and suspicious.

  He's cautious of some = problem or potential danger. And what is that
problem or potential danger he = is wary of? It's people who "are racist, or
sympathise with racists, or seek = to diminish or ignore the historic impact
of racism."

  Now, Keith Moore got called out for ascribing motives = to "some people"
who are more concerned with appearance than reality. That = vague statement
which was hardly even a criticism received a clap back. What = Jay did was
even more = egregious because he named exactly who he says the problems = are.
Namely, = wealthy, credentialed, white people who do not mouth the = particular
platitudes he = wants to hear from them. The alternative to not saying what
he wants them to say is that he = views them as a potential problem. What a
sad, black-and-white world-- you're either with Jay or = against Jay.

  As a = credentialed, white, and (relatively, of course) wealthy person = who
does not say = the kinds of things that Jay is wishing to hear I feel like I
can take issue with his = statement. He's saying he views me as a potential
problem. He's wary of me because = the alternative, in his mind, to not
repeating the approved platitudes is to be a racist or a = racist sympathizer
or a diminisher of "the historic impact of racism." Well nuts = to that!

I = understand that you might think I am demanding public fealty to a view = you don=E2=80=99t hold and that was not my intent, so let me restate the = second part of my response to the original strawmen in narrower = terms:

- The alternative of wealthy, = credentialed, white people [a phrase taken directly from one of the = strawmen] obstructing or preventing others from taking the issue of = diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and = publicly change their behaviours, makes me wary that either they are = racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the = historic impact of racism.

That = should be much clearer.

Jay



  Dan.

-- 
"The object of life is not to be = on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus = Aurelius

-- 
Gendispatch mailing = list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:25:48 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 11FNJLUO006110; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:25:48 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.117]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com with ESMTP id 36pb03uujn-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:25:48 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.119) by ustx2ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.120) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 17:25:47 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.010; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 17:25:47 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Dan Harkins , "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG Thread-Index: AQHXALYQFcOGgPAZ3UOAyVBxUR4C1apT5MAAgALkdICAAAXJAIAAAw2AgABgbICAAAZ8AIABHPAAgAASMICAABnMgIABhVKAgAAknQCAABDqAP//rs2AgABWPQD//7FbgA== Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:25:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.46.21020701 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.33) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint7 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:25:51 -0000 PiAgICAgICBUaGUgdGhpbmcgSSB0YWtlIGlzc3VlIHdpdGggd2FzIGRpcmVjdGVkIGF0ICJwZW9w bGUiLCBhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gb2YgDQogICAgcGVyc29ucy4NCg0KU28geW91IHRvb2sgaXQgYXMg aW5kaXZpZHVhbHMsIGFuZCBJIHRvb2sgcGVvcGxlLCBlc3BlY2lhbGx5IGdpdmVuIHRoZSBzZWNv bmQgcGFyYWdyYXBoLCBhcyBtZW1iZXJzIG9mIGFuIG9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbiBhbmQgaGUgd2FzIHRh bGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgb3JnYW5pemF0aW9uYWwgc3RhdGVtZW50cy4NCg0KPiAgICAgICBXaHkgYXJl IHlvdSB3YWRpbmcgaW4gdG8gdGhpcyBSaWNoPw0KDQpCZWNhdXNlIEkgYW0gdHJ5aW5nIHRvIHVu ZGVyc3RhbmQgd2h5IHNvbWUgcGVvcGxlIGFyZSBzbyBvcHBvc2VkIHRvIHRoaXMuDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Feb 15 15:58:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60ED33A0786 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:58:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1EcfAEsrhMEa for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 367C13A0652 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOL0AYL7H8RA6@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 17:58:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOL00DEYH6OF0@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:56:48 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:58:01 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <7dc731ec-cc55-9231-c26f-ab0623bd138e@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210215] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:58:04 -0000 On 2/15/21 3:25 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> The thing I take issue with was directed at "people", a collection of > persons. > > So you took it as individuals, and I took people, especially given the second paragraph, as members of an organization and he was talking about organizational statements.   Well I actually said that those people can (partially) make up an organization so I don't think our statements are too far off. I just don't think that is terribly relevant. >> Why are you wading in to this Rich? > Because I am trying to understand why some people are so opposed to this.   Opposed to what?   To be perfectly honest, if Keith hadn't been admonished I wouldn't have said a thing. But if we're gonna have some rules here then I think it's important that everyone play by them. So if it's not OK to say that some people are more concerned with appearance than reality (and I guess it's not OK even if it's true) then it's not OK to say that people who don't mouth the platitudes that Jay wants to hear are racists, and it's not OK for Martin to say that a few people are obstructionists.   Of course I would be happy to allow all those statements to be freely expressed on the list but then I like free speech, even that which upsets others. Seems that is not a universal feeling here though.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Mon Feb 15 16:54:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063C93A0ABD; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:54:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ql_fsvWAiaU; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86FB63A0ABB; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOL0AYLTJUEA6@wwwlocal.goatley.com>; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:54:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOL00DGFJSAF0@trixy.bergandi.net>; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:52:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:54:11 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Jay Daley Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <3e3dc9dc-77f6-d554-6dbb-d34996971cbc@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_o60pQXF3ZheqtEiYoED4XQ)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210215] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 00:54:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_o60pQXF3ZheqtEiYoED4XQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT On 2/15/21 3:15 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >> On 16/02/2021, at 11:49 AM, Dan Harkins > > wrote: >> >> >> On 2/15/21 1:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 16-Feb-21 08:37, Dan Harkins wrote: >>>>    Jay, >>>> >>>> On 2/14/21 12:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>>>> Speaking as a non-white person with extensive personal experience of >>>>> racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to address: >>>>> >>>>> Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity >>>>> and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly >>>>> change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor >>>>> disempowering, but rather it is both heartening and solidarity >>>>> building.  The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not >>>>> wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are racist, or >>>>> sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic >>>>> impact of racism. >>>>    You are ascribing motives and abhorrent beliefs to other people. >>> No he's not. He's saying he's *wary*, i.e. cautious and suspicious. >> >>   He's cautious of some problem or potential danger. And what is that >> problem or potential danger he is wary of? It's people who "are >> racist, or >> sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic >> impact >> of racism." >> >>   Now, Keith Moore got called out for ascribing motives to "some people" >> who are more concerned with appearance than reality. That vague statement >> which was hardly even a criticism received a clap back. What Jay did was >> even more egregious because he named exactly who he says the problems >> are. >> Namely, wealthy, credentialed, white people who do not mouth the >> particular >> platitudes he wants to hear from them. The alternative to not saying what >> he wants them to say is that he views them as a potential problem. What a >> sad, black-and-white world-- you're either with Jay or against Jay. >> >>   As a credentialed, white, and (relatively, of course) wealthy >> person who >> does not say the kinds of things that Jay is wishing to hear I feel >> like I >> can take issue with his statement. He's saying he views me as a potential >> problem. He's wary of me because the alternative, in his mind, to not >> repeating the approved platitudes is to be a racist or a racist >> sympathizer >> or a diminisher of "the historic impact of racism." Well nuts to that! > > I understand that you might think I am demanding public fealty to a > view you don’t hold and that was not my intent, so let me restate the > second part of my response to the original strawmen in narrower terms: > > - The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people [a phrase > taken directly from one of the strawmen] obstructing or preventing > others from taking the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously > enough to try to explicitly and publicly change their behaviours, > makes me wary that either they are racist, or sympathise with racists, > or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism. > > That should be much clearer.   Actually it's less clear because before it was two separate sentences. Trying to cram it into one and saying "of" instead of "to" makes it less clear. But it's equally noxious.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_o60pQXF3ZheqtEiYoED4XQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

On 2/15/21 3:15 PM, Jay Daley wrote:
On 16/02/2021, at 11:49 AM, Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org> wrote:


On 2/15/21 1:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
On 16-Feb-21 08:37, Dan Harkins wrote:
   Jay,

On 2/14/21 12:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote:
Speaking as a non-white person with extensive personal experience of
racism there are a couple of strawmen I would like to address:

Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity
and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly
change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor
disempowering, but rather it is both heartening and solidarity
building.  The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not
wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are racist, or
sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic
impact of racism.
   You are ascribing motives and abhorrent beliefs to other people.
No he's not. He's saying he's *wary*, i.e. cautious and suspicious.

  He's cautious of some problem or potential danger. And what is that
problem or potential danger he is wary of? It's people who "are racist, or
sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact
of racism."

  Now, Keith Moore got called out for ascribing motives to "some people"
who are more concerned with appearance than reality. That vague statement
which was hardly even a criticism received a clap back. What Jay did was
even more egregious because he named exactly who he says the problems are.
Namely, wealthy, credentialed, white people who do not mouth the particular
platitudes he wants to hear from them. The alternative to not saying what
he wants them to say is that he views them as a potential problem. What a
sad, black-and-white world-- you're either with Jay or against Jay.

  As a credentialed, white, and (relatively, of course) wealthy person who
does not say the kinds of things that Jay is wishing to hear I feel like I
can take issue with his statement. He's saying he views me as a potential
problem. He's wary of me because the alternative, in his mind, to not
repeating the approved platitudes is to be a racist or a racist sympathizer
or a diminisher of "the historic impact of racism." Well nuts to that!

I understand that you might think I am demanding public fealty to a view you don’t hold and that was not my intent, so let me restate the second part of my response to the original strawmen in narrower terms:

- The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people [a phrase taken directly from one of the strawmen] obstructing or preventing others from taking the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly change their behaviours, makes me wary that either they are racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism.

That should be much clearer.
 
  Actually it's less clear because before it was two separate sentences.
Trying to cram it into one and saying "of" instead of "to" makes it less
clear. But it's equally noxious.

  Dan.

 
-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_o60pQXF3ZheqtEiYoED4XQ)-- From nobody Mon Feb 15 20:05:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BAF3A0CBE; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 20:05:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FejF9WjXFSWX; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 20:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E4293A0CBA; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 20:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:45cd:4b14:c31b:4847] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:45cd:4b14:c31b:4847]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2436C28027D; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:05:32 +0000 (UTC) To: Jay Daley , Dan Harkins Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <41cc0769-1dba-d1dc-fb38-e2b1a17578d3@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:23:29 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:05:52 -0000 On 15/2/21 20:15, Jay Daley wrote: [...] > > I understand that you might think I am demanding public fealty to a view > you don’t hold and that was not my intent, so let me restate the second > part of my response to the original strawmen in narrower terms: > > - The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people [a phrase taken > directly from one of the strawmen] obstructing or preventing others from > taking the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to > explicitly and publicly change their behaviours, makes me wary that > either they are racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish > or ignore the historic impact of racism. I think you've totally misunderstood the point that some of us have tried to make. My point has been that avoiding the use of possibly derogatory language should not be portrayed as "taking the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough". You're really underestimating the problem if you think that by avoiding a few dozen words you'll be making the IETF any (meaningfully) more inclusive and diverse. I'm all for not employing language that might be considered derogatory by some (or that is right away derogatory). That's, in my book, a matter of respect for other fellow human beings -- not something that fosters diversity or inclusiveness. Unfortunately, because of a number of structural issues, most of the people that would find a number of words particularly offensive won't participate in the mailing-lists or even read the documents we produce, because such structural issues prevent them from doing so. So my comments have been a plea to put the underlying issues on the agenda, such that rather than second-guessing how currently under-represented or excluded people feel, we do our best to give them the opportunity to speak for themselves. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Mon Feb 15 22:37:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2793A0E79 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 22:37:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AScRHASU4B97; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 22:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 240263A0E78; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 22:37:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-77312369-726B-41CD-A8F6-ADF768EAC37D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 19:37:49 +1300 Message-Id: <31EB30CA-7A31-4B02-B3CF-7ECBF7D4DB63@ietf.org> References: <41cc0769-1dba-d1dc-fb38-e2b1a17578d3@gont.com.ar> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <41cc0769-1dba-d1dc-fb38-e2b1a17578d3@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18C66) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:37:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail-77312369-726B-41CD-A8F6-ADF768EAC37D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 16/02/2021, at 5:05 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 15/2/21 20:15, Jay Daley wrote: > [...] >> I understand that you might think I am demanding public fealty to a view y= ou don=E2=80=99t hold and that was not my intent, so let me restate the seco= nd part of my response to the original strawmen in narrower terms: >> - The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people [a phrase taken d= irectly from one of the strawmen] obstructing or preventing others from taki= ng the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explici= tly and publicly change their behaviours, makes me wary that either they are= racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the histo= ric impact of racism. >=20 > I think you've totally misunderstood the point that some of us have tried t= o make. The points you are making below are quite different from the points others h= ave made that I was responding to above.=20 >=20 > My point has been that avoiding the use of possibly derogatory language sh= ould not be portrayed as "taking the issue of diversity and inclusivity seri= ously enough". >=20 > You're really underestimating the problem if you think that by avoiding a f= ew dozen words you'll be making the IETF any (meaningfully) more inclusive a= nd diverse. Those are two separate things: - Yes I believe that avoiding a few words will make the IETF meaningfully mo= re inclusive and diverse. A consensus public statement would have widesprea= d impact=20 - No I do not believe this is all that it takes. There are indeed many other= components to diversity and inclusivity and some are far harder to solve an= d will have a far greater impact when solved.=20 > I'm all for not employing language that might be considered derogatory by s= ome (or that is right away derogatory). That's, in my book, a matter of resp= ect for other fellow human beings -- not something that fosters diversity or= inclusiveness. It surprises me that you do not think increased respect leads to increased d= iversity and inclusivity. Do you primarily view diversity and inclusivity f= rom more practical dimensions, such as country of residence or type of emplo= yer? >=20 > Unfortunately, because of a number of structural issues, most of the peopl= e that would find a number of words particularly offensive won't participate= in the mailing-lists or even read the documents we produce, because such st= ructural issues prevent them from doing so. >=20 > So my comments have been a plea to put the underlying issues on the agenda= , such that rather than second-guessing how currently under-represented or e= xcluded people feel, we do our best to give them the opportunity to speak fo= r themselves. I was.=20 Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director >=20 > Thanks, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-77312369-726B-41CD-A8F6-ADF768EAC37D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 16/02/2021, at 5:05 PM, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>= wrote:

=EF=BB=BFOn 15/2/21 20:15, Jay Daley wrote:
[...]
I understand that you might think I a= m demanding public fealty to a view you don=E2=80=99t hold and that was not m= y intent, so let me restate the second part of my response to the original s= trawmen in narrower terms:
= - The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people [a phrase tak= en directly from one of the strawmen] obstructing or preventing others from t= aking the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to expl= icitly and publicly change their behaviours, makes me wary that either they a= re racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the his= toric impact of racism.

I thin= k you've totally misunderstood the point that some of us have tried to make.=

The points you are making below= are quite different from the points others have made that I was responding t= o above. 
My point has been that avoiding the use of possibly derogatory langu= age should not be portrayed as "taking the issue of diversity and inclusivit= y seriously enough".

You're really underest= imating the problem if you think that by avoiding a few dozen words you'll b= e making the IETF any (meaningfully) more inclusive and diverse.
<= /div>

Those are two separate things:
- Yes I b= elieve that avoiding a few words will make the IETF meaningfully more inclus= ive and diverse.  A consensus public statement would have widespread im= pact 
- No I do not believe this is all that it takes. There a= re indeed many other components to diversity and inclusivity and some are fa= r harder to solve and will have a far greater impact when solved. 

I'm a= ll for not employing language that might be considered derogatory by some (o= r that is right away derogatory). That's, in my book, a matter of respect fo= r other fellow human beings -- not something that fosters diversity or inclu= siveness.

It surprises me that you d= o not think increased respect leads to increased diversity and inclusivity. &= nbsp;Do you primarily view diversity and inclusivity from more practical dim= ensions, such as country of residence or type of employer?

Unfortunately, because o= f a number of structural issues, most of the people that would find a number= of words particularly offensive won't participate in the mailing-lists or e= ven read the documents we produce, because such structural issues prevent th= em from doing so.

So my comments have been a= plea to put the underlying issues on the agenda, such that rather than seco= nd-guessing how currently under-represented or excluded people feel, we do o= ur best to give them the opportunity to speak for themselves.

I was. 

Jay
<= div>
-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director

Thanks,<= /span>
--
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fe= rnando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint:= 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1


= --Apple-Mail-77312369-726B-41CD-A8F6-ADF768EAC37D-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 00:37:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F6E3A107E; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 00:37:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nT_2aIUYxhZ7; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 00:37:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7CCD3A1079; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 00:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:45cd:4b14:c31b:4847] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:45cd:4b14:c31b:4847]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B81292801EF; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:37:04 +0000 (UTC) To: Jay Daley , Fernando Gont Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <41cc0769-1dba-d1dc-fb38-e2b1a17578d3@gont.com.ar> <31EB30CA-7A31-4B02-B3CF-7ECBF7D4DB63@ietf.org> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <9a63fd67-e8e0-a46e-47a7-5ecb4a8ae1b6@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:36:52 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31EB30CA-7A31-4B02-B3CF-7ECBF7D4DB63@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:37:18 -0000 Hello, Jay, On 16/2/21 03:37, Jay Daley wrote: [...] >> >> I think you've totally misunderstood the point that some of us have >> tried to make. > > The points you are making below are quite different from the points > others have made that I was responding to above. Fair enough. >> My point has been that avoiding the use of possibly derogatory >> language should not be portrayed as "taking the issue of diversity and >> inclusivity seriously enough". >> >> You're really underestimating the problem if you think that by >> avoiding a few dozen words you'll be making the IETF any >> (meaningfully) more inclusive and diverse. > > Those are two separate things: > - Yes I believe that avoiding a few words will make the IETF > meaningfully more inclusive and diverse.  A consensus public statement > would have widespread impact Could you please elaborate on why you think so? As a matter of personal anecdote, I've experienced people refer to countries like mine (Argentina) as "third-world countries". Certainly derogative and a product of ignorance. And I certainly did not enjoy it. But if I had to think of the things that make participation from my region challenging, unfortunately such language is probably not even in the top 10 of issues. The same seems to be the case for other colleagues I have happened to discuss this issue. > - No I do not believe this is all that it takes. There are indeed many > other components to diversity and inclusivity and some are far harder to > solve and will have a far greater impact when solved. Is it too much to expect that they become part of our agenda, rather than "left out for some possible future work"? -- That's essentially what I've asked. >> I'm all for not employing language that might be considered derogatory >> by some (or that is right away derogatory). That's, in my book, a >> matter of respect for other fellow human beings -- not something that >> fosters diversity or inclusiveness. > > It surprises me that you do not think increased respect leads to > increased diversity and inclusivity. Yes. I don't think it necessarily leads to increased diversity and inclusiveness. However, increased respect is something that one should expect and actively encourage, even if it were irrelevant to diversity and inclusiveness. That's why I noted that I'm keen to try to adjust my language as necessary, even if the IETF doesn't have consensus on the topic. I don't think it needs a lot of rationale to encourage that people be kind and respectful to one another (seems common sense). > Do you primarily view diversity > and inclusivity from more practical dimensions, such as country of > residence or type of employer? Increased respect probably means that people will not walk away when they make their first experience participating in the IETF. Of course, that's the least one can expect -- and I wouldn't even call that "inclusiveness", but rather basic respect among human beings. OTOH, fostering diversity and inclusiveness means that you probably have to change structural issues such that a more diverse community actually has opportunities in the first place. You can't walk away from somewhere you've never been to. Put another way, there's a whole range of people that won't be affected by any language adjustments because they are already too much excluded by the system to be able to benefit from or even experience such adjustments. OTOH, our processes can be rather exclusive while not relying on derogatory language. For example, arbitrary or discretionary decisions, failure to follow due processes, requests being completely ignored, being requested to step down from the nomcom for not having secured funding to attend f2f meetings, etc., probably have a much more negative impact on diversity and inclusiveness than language. I know of quite a few colleagues (both from my region and from other regions) that have walked away from the IETF for exactly those reasons. For instance, do you think it's "inclusive" and fosters diversity to have a discussion on diversity and have people imply that what happens in the USA (or some reduce subset of countries) speaks for what happens in the whole world? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Feb 16 00:47:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5573A10B0 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 00:47:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DmeYUTSZdwdv for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 00:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24D9A3A10AC for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 00:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:e437:e43d:7072:b449] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:e437:e43d:7072:b449]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 792876002FE; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:46:50 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1613465210; bh=/U/Slw51pYGU+AYdujpmQxciuZATz1pVfwn91adYIvk=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=YCnqgG2o1c8dO5CPg55MAq5KEtWJmCpZqAl4QVTidKq2nLJlVpL9KxBdPIsoe1EEY ztKueHpgXcLlXeHIUO9mGmcvWlebj9ZPqLcMZWFZs9fkz5P/ThPYbcFzVqIKtX9Wfa R3tsoM3+cIy3bcbitdWTVyvSnywQeLuODNnpUmSU= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_620E3B40-F4BD-44BF-8D00-3D64DDA21EA9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:46:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Martin Thomson References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 792876002FE.AFB7D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:47:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_620E3B40-F4BD-44BF-8D00-3D64DDA21EA9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-2-15, at 23:48, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote: >> While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there = is >> general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from >> informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive >> terminology in IETF documents. >=20 > Hi Sean, >=20 > Thanks for doing this. The above statement sums it up pretty well. agreed. > My suggestion is that we go ahead with the work with the charter = verbatim. Again, agreed. There are certainly several other ways in which we can attempt to = increase inclusivity and diversity of the IETF, and we should also come = to consensus on starting some of those. But those discussions need not = delay us from formally starting this effort. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_620E3B40-F4BD-44BF-8D00-3D64DDA21EA9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmArhnYACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcrBhAAsBbCCihs+AQSY5MriutnjzwIsPaCYcjafiZlVMMkJAefiPt2s7CNUbjz 13SwPqJGP8KWUJ3VpE9uKRmvx182tCgcwd5Iag2JhuUFvQAAtsRv5yftf5LfE/te jFNNcgqQcyiq/kMt7S2YXVfFAge6HT6zSFF8whow0m1E8wFYSsMweDGpkBYpdEKn GrWmPWhHW47pjrQlLx0qNW05EW8p2OvdoHXRWgBbOwNh0dH+JVnBr6f5ymw6bAsG r0lpuiaXZMFVEnjFnjOr8KwEXNQMPriRh/LsA71Hp1e0EdSfKnfFZkuf5jBrsVlc v3vcFhgpRkaYYt7CEOfj9vRGOA/PYoEHadmoJXtTfOug/WbF4GYZg04tjPULUvoY dGibc/wx3BQ+ZMOjQgw6fNtK5ViSu8PJ1UpvSc8l//qfLym50F5DYq846MrL9LNR w6nb26w3DcDjxaYie1VQ/48azgAoPxk1oakTpZUJzWASMpKJkEs0T8+U9XremcNF ZdZOBSRcMWkdFWKNgWJ8FOXrhQL8clKkyigAsrqivnFLqkZZ9Geddj7Ktqvlcqap 28bXkuSQynKzRYepWEemAp2BbiQ/i9awxA3Ek0kFcOP7SqS7jn98CNXTNTgvnOJg nksvwAkDP4gW6xDjRWQUiBxBZDrTqMz/4+fRYDZx7ZX44yZvRxA= =gUU/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_620E3B40-F4BD-44BF-8D00-3D64DDA21EA9-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 04:59:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB813A0BC2 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:59:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aIi4u-oimrrG for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E18EF3A0BB8 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:59:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3181; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1613480361; x=1614689961; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=7zS2fnJnSGLWRyQyBjQvdR2h7Ej3sYIwJyd/U70f2DQ=; b=m1+QSsnxRF4HPSYR6R9PHGpkjfRO0kF8IH1ucym1FM/e3Krm9es1JM2t WTRxmEJjguAOCfxAethosieDnBZ/wS58CO3H08JDgXWxBpb1+GryhXGNJ AgUkjHPQcp4wNvQF3qCjht5W17E0arYjUfK3kVauB1wlo1rqnObWN622P s=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BDAAASwStgjBbLJq1iHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQGBf?= =?us-ascii?q?QUBAQsBg3YBJxIxhEGJBIhPA5pLgXwEBwEBAQoDAQE0BAEBhE0CggomNgcOA?= =?us-ascii?q?gMBAQEDAgMBAQEBBQEBAQIBBgQUAQEBAYZHhkQBAQEDASNWBQsLGCoCAlcGE?= =?us-ascii?q?xSCXAGCZiCsTHaBMoVYhG8QgTgBgVKLb0KCAoE4HIJXPodUNIIrBIFVEAGBR?= =?us-ascii?q?AEDAy8qFwKCUpJ/iVKcSYMEgyuBOpcmAx+DMYpIlTSObqJzYoNzAgQGBQIWg?= =?us-ascii?q?VwLJoFZMxoIGxVlAYI+PhIZDY4rDgmOKEADLzcCBgEJAQEDCYwTAQE?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,183,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="33490864" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 16 Feb 2021 12:59:16 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp722.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp722.cisco.com [10.61.66.210]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11GCxGjB021064 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:59:16 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BA0FB5C0-4A33-4AA7-B004-DEE6C0417772"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 13:59:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Lars Eggert References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.66.210, ams3-vpn-dhcp722.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:59:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BA0FB5C0-4A33-4AA7-B004-DEE6C0417772 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Lars and Martin, May we please have these two issues resolved first? The first issue is the point that Fernando has raised. What he has = said, something with which I agree, is that there are many other issues = to address. Having a catalog of these issues, and where they need to be = sorted, would be useful. If, Lars, you would agree to AD sponsor such = a doc, that would also be fine with me. If you think it=E2=80=99s a or = a standing document that is NOT an RFC, that is ALSO fine with me. But = some approach going forward is necessary. Simply saying, =E2=80=9CGo = form your own working group=E2=80=9D is not. THAT would be = obstructionist. Second, EKR raised a point that it would be =E2=80=9Chelpful=E2=80=9D to = speak of the principles that guide the work. Here I go further and say = that it is more than just helpful, but necessary. Again, that hasn=E2=80=99= t really been addressed. That=E2=80=99s important because otherwise = we=E2=80=99ll end up arguing incessantly in every working group about = which words are and are not offensive, and what this issue has shown is = that such arguments themselves are counterproductive. Eliot > On 16 Feb 2021, at 09:46, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Hi, >=20 > On 2021-2-15, at 23:48, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 07:39, Sean Turner wrote: >>> While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there = is >>> general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from >>> informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive >>> terminology in IETF documents. >>=20 >> Hi Sean, >>=20 >> Thanks for doing this. The above statement sums it up pretty well. >=20 > agreed. >=20 >> My suggestion is that we go ahead with the work with the charter = verbatim. >=20 > Again, agreed. >=20 > There are certainly several other ways in which we can attempt to = increase inclusivity and diversity of the IETF, and we should also come = to consensus on starting some of those. But those discussions need not = delay us from formally starting this effort. >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_BA0FB5C0-4A33-4AA7-B004-DEE6C0417772 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmArwaIACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMPIAf/baNM/psyCuoESOs2sGlt1VAg4ig8P0UYW/1nHJhV3hG9wd6hVP4unogP GqeFafDcAj/vCjuDCNuzhbRVULVV55j/QgbQzH8yvgRjNBRER79zM53eqe9nW5YI ppRSBCMyp7oeHPJ2P/2S3NhtDweskVrJLtWgBJh/vh43G7ZzHVFcUMxYZr7h2HMd 3PYV9MlYgGYcd90XkOcyMUWq6D103lGhn7XSKrVX/NORG0WRLHkzoju9/SlCf34s c9EsS2RxFcCsN88BYx6MjVBNc5gqHUICZBdQyRoRwcRtVKS0WuaZv8b/AfvNQ4mq O5reqGik9q7VzMWX6Xekr1dceyE70Q== =+o8T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BA0FB5C0-4A33-4AA7-B004-DEE6C0417772-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 06:05:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276013A0CF2 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:05:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fbXVXfrP9i2O for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90D3D3A0CF1 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:e437:e43d:7072:b449] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:e437:e43d:7072:b449]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B44E56002FE; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:05:27 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1613484327; bh=OYAvjcOXpBx2bhNfuYYjyAJLK4Xhz65k45cqdjPeGWs=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=PLJCnm6YpFqns4MG/nlYs6pNE12xFPJHe+AsCRJQjTLnrPcuXHA7FK7Vlw/I64XRI ketXM4lvjYGMWvtAgrFsV+axgKmxthb08sYdvAasp+QkYZTdygxByLclJK1UE1jL3E IWgqvvw+v1fSHXClAMwyDg0O/1fhUj1KXyKLE1rk= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C8905C26-1B57-4867-BD07-6645FDCB816A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:05:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> Cc: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Eliot Lear References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> X-MailScanner-ID: B44E56002FE.A4CCE X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:05:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C8905C26-1B57-4867-BD07-6645FDCB816A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, On 2021-2-16, at 14:59, Eliot Lear wrote: > May we please have these two issues resolved first? I'll comment on the issues below, but could you try and explain why they = need to be resolved first, i.e., before this chartering can go forward? > The first issue is the point that Fernando has raised. What he has = said, something with which I agree, is that there are many other issues = to address. Having a catalog of these issues, and where they need to be = sorted, would be useful. I agree that it would be useful. > If, Lars, you would agree to AD sponsor such a doc, that would also = be fine with me. If you think it=E2=80=99s a or a standing document = that is NOT an RFC, that is ALSO fine with me. But some approach going = forward is necessary. I would like to wait until there is at least a rough draft of what such = a list or document would look like before trying to determine if and how = it should get published. > Simply saying, =E2=80=9CGo form your own working group=E2=80=9D is = not. THAT would be obstructionist. I don't agree. After a lengthy discussion and some interims, we now have = a narrowly-scoped charter proposal that attempts to make progress in one = particular direction that seems reasonably well understood and aligned = with efforts in the broader tech community. As many others have already said, that doesn't mean that this effort = should or will be the only thing we'll do towards increasing = inclusivity. I fully expect that we'll discuss objectives and proposals = for other activities in the future, possibly based on the catalog you = mention above. But I see no reason to postpone the start of this = particular activity until we know what else we might want to do? > Second, EKR raised a point that it would be =E2=80=9Chelpful=E2=80=9D = to speak of the principles that guide the work. Here I go further and = say that it is more than just helpful, but necessary. Again, that = hasn=E2=80=99t really been addressed. That=E2=80=99s important because = otherwise we=E2=80=99ll end up arguing incessantly in every working = group about which words are and are not offensive, and what this issue = has shown is that such arguments themselves are counterproductive. I read Ekr's email as suggestion for a charter text clarification about = the planned content of the deliverables, not as prerequisite to = chartering it. Thanks, Lars; --Apple-Mail=_C8905C26-1B57-4867-BD07-6645FDCB816A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmAr0SQACgkQVLXDCb9w wVe1ghAAy13vyOprAaPp+RP9kJopazJTZextMiMEifKXDL+4DifYsPzbqypyg+vt +hHQA2VsvGDIvjbP7SmQNJZiybZVlFWfqySh9ZPQqO+KJoXY6nt1xwI0fRvtj52S tlkMcNXrpIegPMs2NMgoZteP9NIA3nTz+k8/kbSu+9vmq+JcMXbyhUyUiZHRw4cB Sb7FEYZVNG7fe7OMs3M3g6T0/+9V6tuIrYV0pPPPitgmYb48eNPhKa+BH3XsT7g6 dFVDiLlLi84rbZT2lmjmg9yxALqnvI4czh58b/+u3j1JxT4oRjiwLoep4objtTde 4LOEJ60gosRqZTmdGdQEk3p+GifQvEhlQ6bZN85FpkNGr0itYB7Ecl4zVKVCW1sG GXn4ZTIk4ECRiqCckavR7qYFob7b6bzKPUoYNz1qeb1+16JfDu4xg2MydH4Qe9Nx G1u4YqXO/ZEP6MUe4yh9H60Zj1+0mhahWWWVuQAcMkAtVMnuaZTeBUKZstsDv0ni 5P37Mz8/O5BkWuywRhsJvmYf9IxCtC0paB6VQ/4pm1xuqQ+29LLNd+fKGtFai3wo aTtZO2JUhKKOjQOo3h3XPOe1zOAyS/4wogHcCjDDO6ANsItnxeIF/BK9DbDU75EZ Lv7M7yJsiKLPUuN6TGlhjuC4TFRkumbShWV3gQMoN7ZuoEaNph0= =cSxU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C8905C26-1B57-4867-BD07-6645FDCB816A-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 06:06:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D453A0D03 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:06:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3195Pahcyvod for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 816A63A0CFA for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id t62so9425874qke.7 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:06:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5HH3RRPLU73hIphz0tLe9E/c8DMF2X1CgEWorbdstbQ=; b=f6lL4NFHc9JvJbh4dZE3SHRa1/xBprrBL99TTfLvHD924j+DmUWMY0jeSXEr2kwnLb kqYOB6KoKw+GY+5LCvrgymbufTIaYUDD6KkIRkJeOMuyTIJSszrD3T/WBa/7z0g3Gl/n GT6aJOT3b7Vr/xhZ2TCOi/Qw6Kmofa5Hjog5M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5HH3RRPLU73hIphz0tLe9E/c8DMF2X1CgEWorbdstbQ=; b=BLA6a3Yc4QTEGs82H5TWekm7N8wBBUvM0ZJNnRhHLrONNblKxCqIfw+KN3O5eEt/Yc Bmvyi1OdW4CqCLNuLWZl8HKTbC8X31JDpWYvXAciF6Ie7WUrymCyliZiPhVvlqcTOI3E fNXDhinacB4jImkPDvZiCmvsqaNG4pvo3zauzmtCtg6xx3sGvt0itiob/ygd1p47PLI5 X1iSIUG+hYKpWMLxFuq58JWPwHzqqNZH5UdKrRD5Gdbhx6GiW3Eh4yWSx1IGvCYbc5JL M1dOJ5tawAGEevyZL7GWo3Swh1bVGootUvCKqCT0R+2N2Yp/JmCelMsv8qgzHoKuvuhN RJFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533RJqB4OWbb8whRrZYN7gKiJVoIUabzi7mvDyQByMBcFjcmhFR2 yZoZbUs3pw+sVdlpdiOI4eff3AIbj2GD4u9L X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNzV4LCxkJqYS9qXM9ETyWIcyLyZj/JePYOIJlvCpfv94Ed3ieh0qx9pNLAg+dl4P1ZvJ3Bw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:6d0:: with SMTP id 16mr19294169qky.335.1613484393295; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:06:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id f8sm13134725qtp.32.2021.02.16.06.06.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:06:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <44798841-0073-f8bf-f095-3ea68ace04c8@cdt.org> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:06:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:86.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/86.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "Salz, Rich" , Fernando Gont , Alissa Cooper , GENDISPATCH List References: <9ED61E90-CC72-431B-BB41-7801262A75AC@cooperw.in> <14A022AD-356A-4500-8DA7-D4BE9612CAF2@akamai.com> From: Mallory Knodel In-Reply-To: <14A022AD-356A-4500-8DA7-D4BE9612CAF2@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:06:36 -0000 On 2/15/21 4:41 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Is there some tool in the works (ala id-nits or spellcheck) to check for > documents for these terms, and provide suggestions for authors? > > There are various efforts around the Internet, I don't know of specifics. One place that I know that is interested in tooling is the inclusive-naming initiative. An implementer of the draft-knodel-terminology is called https://github.com/codespell-project/codespell -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Tue Feb 16 07:08:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84AC63A0E98; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 07:08:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Fj5TuOPulKO; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 07:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8ACC3A0E96; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 07:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:08:17 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.117]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com with ESMTP id 36pb04hgm1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:08:17 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.119) by ustx2ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.120) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:08:16 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.010; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:08:16 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Jay Daley , Fernando Gont CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG Thread-Index: AQHXALYQFcOGgPAZ3UOAyVBxUR4C1apT5MAAgALkdICAAAXJAIAAAw2AgABgbICAAAZ8AIABHPAAgAASMICAABnMgIABhVKAgAAknQCAABDqAIAAB2SAgAA0e4CAAEcPgIAAOsuA Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:08:16 +0000 Message-ID: <185CDCB5-B8D5-4DD8-8F41-4D508B4B4586@akamai.com> References: <41cc0769-1dba-d1dc-fb38-e2b1a17578d3@gont.com.ar> <31EB30CA-7A31-4B02-B3CF-7ECBF7D4DB63@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <31EB30CA-7A31-4B02-B3CF-7ECBF7D4DB63@ietf.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.46.21020701 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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16 Feb 2021 15:22:29 +0000 Received: from [10.61.221.98] ([10.61.221.98]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11GFMSYN014517 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:22:29 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_52524DB8-14BE-449F-903A-B4A8740B9DD8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:22:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Lars Eggert References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.221.98, [10.61.221.98] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:22:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_52524DB8-14BE-449F-903A-B4A8740B9DD8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Lars, > On 16 Feb 2021, at 15:05, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On 2021-2-16, at 14:59, Eliot Lear wrote: >> May we please have these two issues resolved first? >=20 > I'll comment on the issues below, but could you try and explain why = they need to be resolved first, i.e., before this chartering can go = forward? Because having a venue for discussion of the things that can make far = more of a difference to inclusivity and having principles behind our = policies will demonstrate to our peers and our own community and others = that we are not simply paying lip service. And just on this: >=20 > As many others have already said, that doesn't mean that this effort = should or will be the only thing we'll do towards increasing = inclusivity. I fully expect that we'll discuss objectives and proposals = for other activities in the future, possibly based on the catalog you = mention above. But I see no reason to postpone the start of this = particular activity until we know what else we might want to do? I have not suggested that. I suggested that we allow a specific = optional work item to be discussed in the new WG. What I don=E2=80=99t = understand is the argument opposing. But sure. We could come back = here, and have the argument to dispatch=E2=80=A6 again. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_52524DB8-14BE-449F-903A-B4A8740B9DD8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAr4zQACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMT+Qf+OAPjWT9p+VFSfpwVpnrVXjl0pr8lOHqPo01lQT+Ri+5sNab5kqrH830r 7zPvTcPRFL2tMe43yHQYGjhsXITjo6sNKWMgPJ+M4oeET1qEWggCNm4a2Iici/04 zrm0spAYuy4vBcfAyk5TVGIzCoP799tvMWgDql/tWEdkwgMv7x+qrXRd8855d+qz /OGDec/BTKt6bFVdbx6DwzaPC4TuJWFxYrB7Qv2P39Kyjyh4khb7/1omHHSnpqO6 hGIgk15zHXi4/kZF+kuBIqq6AFyOYGVYvyY/0sGvXHcq/jJCXVgRPDl816kxuJ+Z +qWV7oI8nsL+vtY6cGPgAi+PF5cK7g== =XG2k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_52524DB8-14BE-449F-903A-B4A8740B9DD8-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 08:32:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56A33A0B08 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:31:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gi4oLqb_QoPC for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B70E93A0B01 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187585C0199 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:31:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=ztqWlOfGGjp+F0Lk8dF2ujlpku3jIUqVpw3Ogwy6I Cs=; b=DEX0LpQIA4ewtAHqYxS7hU1boK4j2KNfX8DOIH9GWGLPd6Kb6o9pt1OF0 bl2lBqYeIdjz5/vrXVjX0mg36A2lAzFnTjp+9tctTrjEffEPPbuYUC6DIpO5GcW5 cWZXJ45rPRpGucl5tQyIuLD+DoCa1bOUBfruGfbVJ/JPn6fX0zuDMo6v5IT1AlN6 H1/Tapzg4bdbxtWAkDWDhUIR/szyRKy348g1wliRD6SSbf4ZkmlYN1VWsONaDKR4 f3zFwVMLKzDNNZy9zOBWSFDOW7ZcKHfgt29cYBJY2/kLEdcRrKTfkBagZw0fiN7u S1EO0t4e5FH8Miy/pgJHhBCu396XQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrjedtgdeltdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgf efgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B3A6624005C for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:31:55 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <41cc0769-1dba-d1dc-fb38-e2b1a17578d3@gont.com.ar> <31EB30CA-7A31-4B02-B3CF-7ECBF7D4DB63@ietf.org> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:31:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31EB30CA-7A31-4B02-B3CF-7ECBF7D4DB63@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:31:59 -0000 On 2/16/21 1:37 AM, Jay Daley wrote: > - Yes I believe that avoiding a few words will make the IETF > meaningfully more inclusive and diverse. IMO there's nothing wrong with do so - we should absolutely do that.   But it's a drop in the ocean, not a reason to pat ourselves on the back, and not something that should be seen as a "first step" that might actually delay progress on far more important aspects of the problem, ESPECIALLY if that first step is to be undertaken by a working group that will take far longer than necessary. But let me try to be even clearer - trying to define inclusion and diversity only along very narrow pigeonholing lines is harmful to inclusion and diversity. 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aW5nIG9uZXNlbGYgaW4gdGhlIHJhbmtzIG9mIHRoZSBpbnNhbmUuIiAtLSBNYXJjdXMgQXVyZWxp dXMNCg0KICAgIC0tIA0KICAgIEdlbmRpc3BhdGNoIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIEdlbmRpc3Bh dGNoQGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9n ZW5kaXNwYXRjaA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Feb 16 08:55:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0BC3A17A8 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:55:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) 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:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=NvWwkQRDauS006BM7oHUvrrO7c/Hb/8VtDi1ueT/e Dw=; b=VysJh7itqHs3PikNmhRcaYGv7hpArpvbY7PHvtBHIeStT/8QglGUfDT9m WrlMARN3GM0VIrX/tmPD3UGVJwZeet00/1JENvomcHTSGS/ZcccIV+46DFHzX7jw oIJLlfPO03V2o6Sh/zTQyh4ghJLy9XSBsq2UwEOYOKsBRRRfWw/rt6ybnxs4ujJn jCkFisUv2uhB6XZGujHZkv40jOQmL+Mfk+e9va2oPmmd0Frm1j+47YRU5UrjD/me eGITyIReU6YRvuWKN6uPAgb5+xij2YP2PNTEhxUlXg1kSvTHbW7sHCxoL2oT4eKk aC+RWWIZ5WWZAtH0jJkDl8//af9MA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrjedtgdelgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkedvgefgleeule ekuefhffehgefhhfekuedvudduiefhhedufefftdfgtdekfffgnecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5C040240062 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:53:38 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> <7dc731ec-cc55-9231-c26f-ab0623bd138e@lounge.org> <67286F24-5D16-4341-885B-1005A8170B0C@ericsson.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <18fd06a0-dc58-b185-66e9-ac60b8e249ac@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:53:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <67286F24-5D16-4341-885B-1005A8170B0C@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:55:22 -0000 On 2/16/21 11:49 AM, Francesca Palombini wrote: > I trust you can make your point and state your opinion without being purposely inflammatory. As always, although it is ok to disagree, it is not ok and does not lead to a productive discussion to put down other people's opinions in this way. I must emphatically disagree with your characterization, and I believe you owe Dan an apology. Keith From nobody Tue Feb 16 08:58:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F12B53A0BFA for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:58:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yqcyD_4EYf6b for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F4003A1277 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id v24so16918184lfr.7 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:55:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OBRfbXitfq8cN2U+o+SiHf+v72wBoaLxrzVoOXrlX3s=; b=z+Z66I5WXlN8CvLC7Q5dfYFF/m0SQBcyh8HE1o9bFKCeHHU0D304YreoirYu9K0n/2 2z3MJLyIACtjUqbkzXPbxqBWqLLxa6gBziFX5vOksJUbh+6AYDW668QuPzfFnIq7Es3C Dl+mI06LF04YNToJ5fpc10xdsnwOn68nhR2qNbcHlewkE0GxVKWdaWi7Hg9ZAJiyBBZM ZuwYoBia50eW7AnfZ09yhHe3W0H81gVE8lBS/i8WHb5KTIXIPiPN/cYcKIU5lY2V9MNk oCjCkMhTgSkW+9eZugtKPHV5dFb5zsu41Zzvxlwt3GqTJs4g8WqrYGIU1xyL+knJ2DkI iGqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OBRfbXitfq8cN2U+o+SiHf+v72wBoaLxrzVoOXrlX3s=; b=bof6zdk8EW0venWdFTInnIAc69k95uIdU66wTZ4LxMuY/Lyk4EZkbchsgYnenkVa60 mdeyCLtrrs35A7BwiHFdgGWhINZVO3SvrvMTVlyAbEvGBMFXPou5cpqmGsbQ10da62JX hV9YFonnr2fJgPFgo6SmsWzp8xwRkjFW7KApkxZtAnPgT2mHI3TTRxQ2rdKQ0ihBg6dl UaRTnJg+60NFWecIimQGgcrOfoTQdwJbOsEbJU2qczDFu134iTBaLjWafYZUpwPnYyRd 8FErxOa8ofZsamvbod0OZ1vADKTJxWN+tuRZLfZ6/Y4Mv1vIV71GpmoKSZU8Q3aiKICY aCeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531n3vTzf+bRXfDe72cw3XzpLQATqZ5htMzQZ2IJPVEflWMuKVeR wTexC3vgLkui2aA9Gq7qi2D0aeApFJD1OHZv+AZk/A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx/lfcAa0GOToA9ZWcYx4CCOd42uxyQI3DGVfqzlZXVhkw064PRXIaL5CAahZHpzSDS0+fUUEzaxP8QkHHVP1I= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4111:: with SMTP id b17mr12098735lfi.132.1613494515747; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:55:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:54:39 -0800 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Eliot Lear , GENDISPATCH List , Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007562a105bb76f7d9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:58:52 -0000 --0000000000007562a105bb76f7d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 6:05 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-2-16, at 14:59, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Second, EKR raised a point that it would be =E2=80=9Chelpful=E2=80=9D t= o speak of the > principles that guide the work. Here I go further and say that it is mor= e > than just helpful, but necessary. Again, that hasn=E2=80=99t really been > addressed. That=E2=80=99s important because otherwise we=E2=80=99ll end = up arguing > incessantly in every working group about which words are and are not > offensive, and what this issue has shown is that such arguments themselve= s > are counterproductive. > > I read Ekr's email as suggestion for a charter text clarification about > the planned content of the deliverables, not as prerequisite to charterin= g > it. > Yes, my intent was that the WG eventually produce a list of principles and that the charter list that as a work item. -Ekr --0000000000007562a105bb76f7d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 6:05 AM Lars = Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote= :
Hi,

On 2021-2-16, at 14:59, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
> Second, EKR raised a point that it would be =E2=80=9Chelpful=E2=80=9D = to speak of the principles that guide the work.=C2=A0 Here I go further and= say that it is more than just helpful, but necessary.=C2=A0 Again, that ha= sn=E2=80=99t really been addressed.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s important because = otherwise we=E2=80=99ll end up arguing incessantly in every working group a= bout which words are and are not offensive, and what this issue has shown i= s that such arguments themselves are counterproductive.

I read Ekr's email as suggestion for a charter text clarification about= the planned content of the deliverables, not as prerequisite to chartering= it.

Yes, my intent was that the WG eve= ntually produce a list of principles and that the charter list that as a wo= rk item.

-Ekr

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Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:58:45 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG Thread-Index: AQHXALYUGBH/ec26fk+DjjoVskXkm6pTgCsAgALkc4CAAAXKAIAAAw2AgABga4CAAAZ9AIABHPAAgAASL4CAABnNgIABhVKAgAAknQCAABDqAIAAB2SAgAA0eoCAAEcQgIAApfwAgAAYRIA= Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:58:45 +0000 Message-ID: <4DFB40C5-EC03-4C84-98A1-D3204600FC8E@ericsson.com> References: <41cc0769-1dba-d1dc-fb38-e2b1a17578d3@gont.com.ar> <31EB30CA-7A31-4B02-B3CF-7ECBF7D4DB63@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_307810b4-63de-473e-97d4-e5a3a1d799aa_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_307810b4-63de-473e-97d4-e5a3a1d799aa_Name=Test Sensitivity only; MSIP_Label_307810b4-63de-473e-97d4-e5a3a1d799aa_SetDate=2021-02-16T16:51:15Z; MSIP_Label_307810b4-63de-473e-97d4-e5a3a1d799aa_SiteId=92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f; MSIP_Label_307810b4-63de-473e-97d4-e5a3a1d799aa_Enabled=true; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB4477.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 266acb12-da80-45cf-ce05-08d8d29c1f6c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Feb 2021 16:58:45.6186 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /4tLYIFJF7cartLine4+jFExg+QK/dI/rTEU/ROK+R0xJYyt2CAlxqYMno2WMumuG9Kgnzue4LQa3LLQ87VUfg4LHJM/zQL0sVXWrXvPXtycNfg09R85hy6ORsc2aUYa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB3949 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:59:54 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQooSnVzdCB0b3AgcG9zdGluZyBvbiBLZWl0aCdzIGVtYWlsIGJ1dCBub3QgYSBk aXJlY3QgYW5zd2VyIHRvIGhpbSkuIA0KDQpKdXN0IHdhbnRlZCB0byByZW1pbmQgdGhhdCBhcyBh IGNvbmNsdXNpb24gb2Ygb3VyIHNldmVyYWwgbWVldGluZ3Mgb24gdGhpcyB0b3BpYywgd2UgaGFk IHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgYXMgd2VsbCBbMV06IA0KDQpUaGVyZSB3YXMgcm91Z2ggc3VwcG9ydCBp biBib3RoIG1lZXRpbmdzIGZvciByZWNvbW1lbmRpbmcgYSBicm9hZGVyIA0KICAgIGRpc2N1c3Np b24gYW5kIHJlc3VsdGluZyBkb2N1bWVudCBvbiBpbmNsdXNpdml0eSBiZXlvbmQgdGhlIHRlcm1p bm9sb2d5LCANCiAgICBidXQgdGhlcmUgd2VyZSBtYW55IGNvbmNlcm5zIGZvciBob3cgdG8gc3Ry dWN0dXJlIHN1Y2ggd29yayBpbiBhIFdHIGFuZCANCiAgICBoYXZlIGl0IGJlIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWwu IFNldmVyYWwgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgd2VyZSBtYWRlIHRvIGhhdmUgdGhlIElBQiANCiAgICBzcG9u c29yIHN1Y2ggd29yayBhcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZWlyIHByb2dyYW0gb24gIkRpdmVyc2l0eSwgSW5j bHVzaW9uLCBhbmQgDQogICAgR3Jvd3RoIi4gVGhlIHRob3VnaHQgd2FzIHRoYXQgcGVyaGFwcyBh IGRpc2N1c3Npb24gdGhlcmUgY291bGQgZ2VuZXJhdGUgDQogICAgYSBwYXRoIGZvcndhcmQgZm9y IElFVEYgd29yay4NCg0KVGhpcyBpcyBhIHBhcmFsbGVsIHdvcmsgZnJvbSB0aGUgb25lIGRpc2N1 c3NlZCBpbiB0aGlzIHRocmVhZCwgd2hpY2ggaXMgYWJvdXQgY29tbWVudHMgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGNo YXJ0ZXIgZm9yIHRoZSB3ZyBvbiB0ZXJtaW5vbG9neSwgYnV0IEkganVzdCB3YW50ZWQgdG8gbWFr ZSBzdXJlIHRoYXQgZXZlcnlib2R5IHdhcyBhd2FyZSB0aGF0IHRoaXMgd2FzIHBhcnQgb2Ygb3Vy IGNvbmNsdXNpb24uDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCkZyYW5jZXNjYQ0KDQpbMV0gaHR0cHM6Ly9tYWlsYXJj aGl2ZS5pZXRmLm9yZy9hcmNoL21zZy9nZW5kaXNwYXRjaC9pSERoN0tCVlJ2R0IyRVdLWVloMTFM alA5NUUvIA0KDQrvu79PbiAxNi8wMi8yMDIxLCAxNzozMiwgIkdlbmRpc3BhdGNoIG9uIGJlaGFs ZiBvZiBLZWl0aCBNb29yZSIgPGdlbmRpc3BhdGNoLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxm IG9mIG1vb3JlQG5ldHdvcmstaGVyZXRpY3MuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIE9uIDIvMTYvMjEg MTozNyBBTSwgSmF5IERhbGV5IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgPiAtIFllcyBJIGJlbGlldmUgdGhhdCBh dm9pZGluZyBhIGZldyB3b3JkcyB3aWxsIG1ha2UgdGhlIElFVEYgDQogICAgPiBtZWFuaW5nZnVs bHkgbW9yZSBpbmNsdXNpdmUgYW5kIGRpdmVyc2UuIA0KDQogICAgSU1PIHRoZXJlJ3Mgbm90aGlu ZyB3cm9uZyB3aXRoIGRvIHNvIC0gd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGFic29sdXRlbHkgZG8gdGhhdC4gICANCiAg ICBCdXQgaXQncyBhIGRyb3AgaW4gdGhlIG9jZWFuLCBub3QgYSByZWFzb24gdG8gcGF0IG91cnNl bHZlcyBvbiB0aGUgYmFjaywgDQogICAgYW5kIG5vdCBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBzaG91bGQgYmUg c2VlbiBhcyBhICJmaXJzdCBzdGVwIiB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0IA0KICAgIGFjdHVhbGx5IGRlbGF5IHBy b2dyZXNzIG9uIGZhciBtb3JlIGltcG9ydGFudCBhc3BlY3RzIG9mIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtLCANCiAg ICBFU1BFQ0lBTExZIGlmIHRoYXQgZmlyc3Qgc3RlcCBpcyB0byBiZSB1bmRlcnRha2VuIGJ5IGEg d29ya2luZyBncm91cCANCiAgICB0aGF0IHdpbGwgdGFrZSBmYXIgbG9uZ2VyIHRoYW4gbmVjZXNz YXJ5Lg0KDQogICAgQnV0IGxldCBtZSB0cnkgdG8gYmUgZXZlbiBjbGVhcmVyIC0gdHJ5aW5nIHRv IGRlZmluZSBpbmNsdXNpb24gYW5kIA0KICAgIGRpdmVyc2l0eSBvbmx5IGFsb25nIHZlcnkgbmFy cm93IHBpZ2VvbmhvbGluZyBsaW5lcyBpcyBoYXJtZnVsIHRvIA0KICAgIGluY2x1c2lvbiBhbmQg ZGl2ZXJzaXR5Lg0KDQogICAgS2VpdGgNCg0KDQogICAgLS0gDQogICAgR2VuZGlzcGF0Y2ggbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgR2VuZGlzcGF0Y2hAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2dlbmRpc3BhdGNoDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Feb 16 09:16:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F333A0C6A for ; 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Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:15:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.16.1.16] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08498D63402D; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:15:18 -0600 (CST) From: Pete Resnick To: Keith Moore Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:15:17 -0600 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5769) Message-ID: <1B1E435D-B36F-4F18-B875-ED348D734A8F@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <18fd06a0-dc58-b185-66e9-ac60b8e249ac@network-heretics.com> References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> <7dc731ec-cc55-9231-c26f-ab0623bd138e@lounge.org> <67286F24-5D16-4341-885B-1005A8170B0C@ericsson.com> <18fd06a0-dc58-b185-66e9-ac60b8e249ac@network-heretics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:16:45 -0000 On 16 Feb 2021, at 10:53, Keith Moore wrote: > On 2/16/21 11:49 AM, Francesca Palombini wrote: > >> I trust you can make your point and state your opinion without being >> purposely inflammatory. As always, although it is ok to disagree, it >> is not ok and does not lead to a productive discussion to put down >> other people's opinions in this way. > > I must emphatically disagree with your characterization, and I believe > you owe Dan an apology. If so, please take that discussion offline to Francesca privately. Feel free to Cc me if you like. If there is output from that discussion, we can bring it back to the list, but it will not in any way be productive to have this discussion on the list. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Tue Feb 16 09:25:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28CEA3A0C9E for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:25:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IOlRq3TOtkCw for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8099F3A0C94 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOM1I106TPCKR@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:24:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOM001D4TN5YN@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:23:30 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:24:46 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <67286F24-5D16-4341-885B-1005A8170B0C@ericsson.com> To: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> <7dc731ec-cc55-9231-c26f-ab0623bd138e@lounge.org> <67286F24-5D16-4341-885B-1005A8170B0C@ericsson.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210215] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:25:50 -0000   Wow!   Hi Francesca, On 2/16/21 8:49 AM, Francesca Palombini wrote: > Dan, > > I trust you can make your point and state your opinion without being purposely inflammatory. As always, although it is ok to disagree, it is not ok and does not lead to a productive discussion to put down other people's opinions in this way. > > [1] I do not find Jay's mail to be ascribing motives to specific people, he is comparing two different situations.   No, he's comparing two different groups of people. In fact, he specifically says "people". I'm not sure how you can say he's comparing situations when he specifically says "people"!   Let me quote him for you: "Having wealthy, credentialed, white people take the issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to explicitly and publicly change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor disempowering.... The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not wishing to do that makes me wary that either they are racist, or sympathise with racists, or seek to diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism."   Notice how he's not talking about situations. He's talking about people. And he's talking specifically about a certain class of people. And if that certain class of people doesn't take his issue "seriously enough" then he fears that they are racists or people who sympathize with racists or people who wish to "diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism".   Situations? I'm sorry but no. Read his email again. > Also please do not refer to Jay's opinions as "platitudes" - I believe you can pass the message you want to pass without the denigratory characterization.   I did not say that Jay's opinions were platitudes. What I said was that the statements of the "wealthy, credentialed, white people" were platitudes. I said that they needed to say the platitudes that Jay wanted to hear (otherwise he would assume his alternative that they're racists). Big difference. > [2] I do not think Martin's characterization of "obstructionist" is anything else than a statement that people don't want this wg to be created. I do not find the term offensive, but that might be because of the fact that I am not a native speaker.   I don't find Martin's statement offensive either. I responded to Martin simply because what he said was pretty much exactly what Keith said.   What's interesting is that you are responding to my statement to Martin and Jay but you are silent on Mark's response to Keith. What's your take on Mark's rebuke of Keith for saying "some people are more concerned with appearance than reality"? That's as inoffensive as Martin saying that some people are obstructionists here. Yet you don't feel compelled to tell Mark your feelings about his email!   If you want to be the cop here then I think you need to walk your beat in a much less biased way. > If you find any email in the mailing list personally offensive, please reach out to the chairs and do not escalate. Because of the high volume and timezone difference there might be a delay dealing with it, but we are here for that.   I'm not personally offended but I do think that your email is offensive in its selective target.   Dan. > Thanks, > Francesca > > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/zNoAGb6-GAFRS-8YLCV_PsFc_2I/ > [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/bRuBH1Xe_UaMg385w4-pY7cbUz0/ > > On 16/02/2021, 00:58, "Gendispatch on behalf of Dan Harkins" wrote: > > > > On 2/15/21 3:25 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > >> The thing I take issue with was directed at "people", a collection of > > persons. > > > > So you took it as individuals, and I took people, especially given the second paragraph, as members of an organization and he was talking about organizational statements. > > Well I actually said that those people can (partially) make up an > organization so I don't think our statements are too far off. I just > don't think that is terribly relevant. > > >> Why are you wading in to this Rich? > > Because I am trying to understand why some people are so opposed to this. > > Opposed to what? > > To be perfectly honest, if Keith hadn't been admonished I wouldn't have > said a thing. But if we're gonna have some rules here then I think it's > important that everyone play by them. So if it's not OK to say that some > people are more concerned with appearance than reality (and I guess it's > not OK even if it's true) then it's not OK to say that people who don't > mouth the platitudes that Jay wants to hear are racists, and it's not OK > for Martin to say that a few people are obstructionists. > > Of course I would be happy to allow all those statements to be freely > expressed on the list but then I like free speech, even that which upsets > others. Seems that is not a universal feeling here though. > > Dan. > > -- > "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to > escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Tue Feb 16 10:35:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE973A0E04 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:35:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, 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2021 18:34:07 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG Thread-Index: AQHXALYUGBH/ec26fk+DjjoVskXkm6pTgCsAgALkc4CAAAXKAIAAAw2AgABga4CAAAZ9AIABHPAAgAASL4CAABnNgIABhVKAgAAknQCAABDqAIAAAqGAgAACaQCAAAUsgIAACQSAgAErPQD///k4AIAAJCMA Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 18:34:07 +0000 Message-ID: <9C79484A-E931-43D7-860C-B85C59248445@ericsson.com> References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> <7dc731ec-cc55-9231-c26f-ab0623bd138e@lounge.org> <67286F24-5D16-4341-885B-1005A8170B0C@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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dG8gYmUgb24gdGhlIHNpZGUgb2YgdGhlIG1ham9yaXR5LCBidXQgdG8NCiAgICBlc2NhcGUgZmlu ZGluZyBvbmVzZWxmIGluIHRoZSByYW5rcyBvZiB0aGUgaW5zYW5lLiIgLS0gTWFyY3VzIEF1cmVs aXVzDQoNCg0K From nobody Tue Feb 16 10:52:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905903A0E37 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:52:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8SeougEKhjMV for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D99563A0E32 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A2DD63888E; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:52:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0OSExOt4FIF7; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:52:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.16.1.16] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BAC32D638885; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:52:32 -0600 (CST) From: Pete Resnick To: Francesca Palombini Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:52:32 -0600 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5769) Message-ID: <6BE2FE63-68C3-4058-8A08-967C1F61A086@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <9C79484A-E931-43D7-860C-B85C59248445@ericsson.com> References: <31dc343f-8e73-6afd-1fca-c68fb5b47bd0@lounge.org> <8a9633db-ecd3-7ec7-e2a6-77088e68b184@huitema.net> <121a9c85-139a-50ec-81a0-1c1c56744d83@network-heretics.com> <31A5A4B7-CDB3-477B-AD7F-ABA42B9A3852@ietf.org> <09a31e49-8d3f-4876-679f-02e673fa0497@lounge.org> <0a28cadc-52bf-282b-8d1a-099de86ca07f@gmail.com> <4732EB01-0D2A-4C6E-B58D-489EBF570864@akamai.com> <7dc731ec-cc55-9231-c26f-ab0623bd138e@lounge.org> <67286F24-5D16-4341-885B-1005A8170B0C@ericsson.com> <9C79484A-E931-43D7-860C-B85C59248445@ericsson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 18:52:39 -0000 To add: If you feel someone has crossed the line, better to drop a note to the chairs rather than try to deal with it yourself on the list. We will have discussions with folks offline and address the issues as appropriate. pr On 16 Feb 2021, at 12:34, Francesca Palombini wrote: > All, > > I have started a thread mail with Dan offline, and this is not a reply > to him, but a note to the whole working group. > > I wanted to ask everybody to please keep the conversation productive > in talking about the charter, and ways of improving it. Emotions and > frustrations are getting in the way of having a constructive > discussion, so please keep the conversation respectful. There has been > several messages in the mailing list that were, if not out of line, on > the line. I do not intend to be policing this mailing list, but I ask > you to please keep the conversation respectful. > > Thanks, > Francesca > > On 16/02/2021, 18:26, "Dan Harkins" wrote: > > > Wow! > > Hi Francesca, > > On 2/16/21 8:49 AM, Francesca Palombini wrote: > > Dan, > > > > I trust you can make your point and state your opinion without > being purposely inflammatory. As always, although it is ok to > disagree, it is not ok and does not lead to a productive discussion to > put down other people's opinions in this way. > > > > [1] I do not find Jay's mail to be ascribing motives to specific > people, he is comparing two different situations. > > No, he's comparing two different groups of people. In fact, he > specifically > says "people". I'm not sure how you can say he's comparing > situations when > he specifically says "people"! > > Let me quote him for you: "Having wealthy, credentialed, white > people > take the > issue of diversity and inclusivity seriously enough to try to > explicitly and > publicly change their behaviours is to me neither patronising nor > disempowering.... > The alternative of wealthy, credentialed, white people not wishing > to do > that > makes me wary that either they are racist, or sympathise with > racists, > or seek to > diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism." > > Notice how he's not talking about situations. He's talking > about > people. And > he's talking specifically about a certain class of people. And if > that > certain > class of people doesn't take his issue "seriously enough" then he > fears that > they are racists or people who sympathize with racists or people > who wish to > "diminish or ignore the historic impact of racism". > > Situations? I'm sorry but no. Read his email again. > > > Also please do not refer to Jay's opinions as "platitudes" - I > believe you can pass the message you want to pass without the > denigratory characterization. > > I did not say that Jay's opinions were platitudes. What I said > was that > the statements of the "wealthy, credentialed, white people" were > platitudes. > I said that they needed to say the platitudes that Jay wanted to > hear > (otherwise > he would assume his alternative that they're racists). Big > difference. > > > [2] I do not think Martin's characterization of "obstructionist" > is anything else than a statement that people don't want this wg to be > created. I do not find the term offensive, but that might be because > of the fact that I am not a native speaker. > > I don't find Martin's statement offensive either. I responded > to Martin > simply because what he said was pretty much exactly what Keith > said. > > What's interesting is that you are responding to my statement > to Martin > and Jay but you are silent on Mark's response to Keith. What's > your take > on Mark's rebuke of Keith for saying "some people are more > concerned with > appearance than reality"? That's as inoffensive as Martin saying > that some > people are obstructionists here. Yet you don't feel compelled to > tell Mark > your feelings about his email! > > If you want to be the cop here then I think you need to walk > your beat > in a much less biased way. > > > If you find any email in the mailing list personally offensive, > please reach out to the chairs and do not escalate. Because of the > high volume and timezone difference there might be a delay dealing > with it, but we are here for that. > > I'm not personally offended but I do think that your email is > offensive in > its selective target. > > Dan. > > > Thanks, > > Francesca > > > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/zNoAGb6-GAFRS-8YLCV_PsFc_2I/ > > [2] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/bRuBH1Xe_UaMg385w4-pY7cbUz0/ > > > > On 16/02/2021, 00:58, "Gendispatch on behalf of Dan Harkins" > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 2/15/21 3:25 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > >> The thing I take issue with was directed at > "people", a collection of > > > persons. > > > > > > So you took it as individuals, and I took people, > especially given the second paragraph, as members of an organization > and he was talking about organizational statements. > > > > Well I actually said that those people can (partially) > make up an > > organization so I don't think our statements are too far > off. I just > > don't think that is terribly relevant. > > > > >> Why are you wading in to this Rich? > > > Because I am trying to understand why some people are so > opposed to this. > > > > Opposed to what? > > > > To be perfectly honest, if Keith hadn't been admonished > I wouldn't have > > said a thing. But if we're gonna have some rules here then > I think it's > > important that everyone play by them. So if it's not OK to > say that some > > people are more concerned with appearance than reality (and > I guess it's > > not OK even if it's true) then it's not OK to say that > people who don't > > mouth the platitudes that Jay wants to hear are racists, > and it's not OK > > for Martin to say that a few people are obstructionists. > > > > Of course I would be happy to allow all those statements > to be freely > > expressed on the list but then I like free speech, even > that which upsets > > others. Seems that is not a universal feeling here though. > > > > Dan. > > > > -- > > "The object of life is not to be on the side of the > majority, but to > > escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- > Marcus Aurelius > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > -- > "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but > to > escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus > Aurelius From nobody Tue Feb 16 11:20:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4963A0EB3 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:20:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TypvbMwShOed for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:20:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A2E23A0EAF for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:20:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:e437:e43d:7072:b449] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:e437:e43d:7072:b449]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9F4356002FE; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 21:19:58 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1613503198; bh=W53808KSR5DWAndXrnM94Rf9BoYrNfQhECgRPaEeC68=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=DNVz4mY8pBDYP4PYtWYRrGbEd5Xx57+r3J8GWuYOHkIAkmC9Vk51p0c7U/TPurprQ iQxJX7jJCCcPGCsHZj773rogm+VP+qSjP/tXy3ciMmzFHrC+ORVAfdQoz7ebI76EkD zZnPpstfPVls+YmAjpp7FJlmJgkkstw/s5FX96HU= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_16511CA8-E8F5-42B2-9B42-D3BFC0C1B963"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 21:19:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, Martin Thomson To: Eliot Lear References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 9F4356002FE.A1DA5 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 19:20:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_16511CA8-E8F5-42B2-9B42-D3BFC0C1B963 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, On 2021-2-16, at 17:22, Eliot Lear = wrote: >> On 16 Feb 2021, at 15:05, Lars Eggert wrote: >> On 2021-2-16, at 14:59, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> May we please have these two issues resolved first? >>=20 >> I'll comment on the issues below, but could you try and explain why = they need to be resolved first, i.e., before this chartering can go = forward? >=20 > Because having a venue for discussion of the things that can make far = more of a difference to inclusivity and having principles behind our = policies will demonstrate to our peers and our own community and others = that we are not simply paying lip service. I fail to understand how chartering this WG prevents discussion of and = work on other initiatives that can make far more of a difference in = terms of inclusivity. I see this as starting a particular effort that we've discussed for a = long time and have at least some consensus on. This is a beginning, not = an end? > And just on this: >=20 >> As many others have already said, that doesn't mean that this effort = should or will be the only thing we'll do towards increasing = inclusivity. I fully expect that we'll discuss objectives and proposals = for other activities in the future, possibly based on the catalog you = mention above. But I see no reason to postpone the start of this = particular activity until we know what else we might want to do? >=20 > I have not suggested that. I suggested that we allow a specific = optional work item to be discussed in the new WG. What I don=E2=80=99t = understand is the argument opposing. But sure. We could come back = here, and have the argument to dispatch=E2=80=A6 again. Is the specific optional work item you are referring to the "catalog of = diversity issues"? (Please correct me if I misunderstood and/or = summarized incorrectly.) If so, I see that as a useful activity, but one = that is outside the narrow charter of this proposed WG. We should absolutely come up with other initiatives to increase = inclusivity and charter or otherwise realize them. But I see no good = reason to delay the start of this particular initiative until we're = ready to also start others. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_16511CA8-E8F5-42B2-9B42-D3BFC0C1B963 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmAsGtwACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeDzg/+LS+SuH/rw3SKbYzlJrsH4stFKD1tK18mgovqCKUIdGS9HtiVTqMPB0+e HkY2hDcLkrWI8itGIPuKBxYRS6LLnVEtGZ9IB/7rBpJCZqFaYUSzeAI2MZvyiC7J EafnSj5gudZ6WNICz96mg+qxgRwsz18n7yts/dR9u4hxoBs/7uDkBstcTiDsCM/X IoXQ6Cmh4QXR4IcpJCPqWOxS44iQQ5wbfM8+JR3Iwh0kUWffhZ7zdsZvw03zLElZ XdoaZxsI5YdjbAz1/mgFW+iNhIHs2leqUqf3+YxQEXMXHGgAw2/gEmnXuwJqsuO0 1nX/SVX/fgchH6fDWA0F7dLJJ0eeW0Y9Bi2gNI88gWfs+REHRam51u6oDrIldWzW s22/4FZQG44M0JEz12TBhxVSa1vnr4628q2z0E2W/bUwAIDJgRlsjknwO05h7mTu GIT0+N31j90968KvyYKu/Ev8GgRCxPkmJwKfQJ+/jcs2T8s1i1OnZGGyivxm4joC Zm9PsJSTI020HuWzUtH+z+Zon4gErC1pxoNbA+931gCYZFOHnVR/LRAtYk/8wbO5 JJYXUxdZf6CCxgjix9EF3Nv/89uUx+h3xwTXXf5KLoamu1zSJ29raiQ0Y1G8QYlK CiPUkVwSVmoamDNHueZWX6lm7c9Y/g4QKlnPvSzQBIHFYmo9GlU= =/hSc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_16511CA8-E8F5-42B2-9B42-D3BFC0C1B963-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 12:02:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747133A1044 for ; 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16 Feb 2021 20:01:50 +0000 Received: from [10.61.174.100] ([10.61.174.100]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11GK1n8c016402 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 20:01:50 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <0C7B8766-E58A-4F66-9B07-AA1ACB750871@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_01AE3189-CD50-4AED-979F-B8E9DC787C75"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 21:01:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Martin Thomson To: Lars Eggert References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.174.100, [10.61.174.100] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 20:02:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_01AE3189-CD50-4AED-979F-B8E9DC787C75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 16 Feb 2021, at 20:19, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > I fail to understand how chartering this WG prevents discussion of and = work on other initiatives that can make far more of a difference in = terms of inclusivity. The difference is talking about doing and just getting on with the job. >=20 > I see this as starting a particular effort that we've discussed for a = long time and have at least some consensus on. This is a beginning, not = an end? I should hope. >=20 >> And just on this: >>=20 >>> As many others have already said, that doesn't mean that this effort = should or will be the only thing we'll do towards increasing = inclusivity. I fully expect that we'll discuss objectives and proposals = for other activities in the future, possibly based on the catalog you = mention above. But I see no reason to postpone the start of this = particular activity until we know what else we might want to do? >>=20 >> I have not suggested that. I suggested that we allow a specific = optional work item to be discussed in the new WG. What I don=E2=80=99t = understand is the argument opposing. But sure. We could come back = here, and have the argument to dispatch=E2=80=A6 again. >=20 > Is the specific optional work item you are referring to the "catalog = of diversity issues"? (Please correct me if I misunderstood and/or = summarized incorrectly.) If so, I see that as a useful activity, but one = that is outside the narrow charter of this proposed WG. >=20 > We should absolutely come up with other initiatives to increase = inclusivity and charter or otherwise realize them. But I see no good = reason to delay the start of this particular initiative until we're = ready to also start others. >=20 Do we lack consensus on the one narrow point I mentioned? If so, I=E2=80=99= m just saying let=E2=80=99s get on with it. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_01AE3189-CD50-4AED-979F-B8E9DC787C75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAsJK0ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejNKdggAnZT7hwNZMrb4WN1FFyZ6A5NKjmA3bElzQeXHOTN+gWZWjQUUyLf+6O7F 5NiNG4xiPc85d8QSSBAblhJx0ozITLkHsEvlWnfteA6E7Xtl0X+JwxhBXybrEj26 xtNv+IFD/kXXEB6DmRGc4EleAAoKaJP8Id513j1Bw6QEbpTv1fkgdyqZTOKwbtbj aCHgnaxqu3goLt283CUqf769kTNJ3fuakEWx6HPEOzB+ZraLkyOiQ7p4CzrGgAWd 7kGOjpPhOmrpM5u89UW2sfCqJ5ZNnv2rEWreBXZpl5u9NNSWJwpKv9gdvfVsl1dY lGt4x+DWXShICdHBaOuI86mN501Tmg== =v/PE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_01AE3189-CD50-4AED-979F-B8E9DC787C75-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 12:29:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEEB3A10A7 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:29:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asJPPD0JwhVq for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B7273A10A3 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8573D5C019D for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:29:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=SFc6S7EkV5hIlBbnjzT4sxED+7yboZiDPoTLsACZy Gc=; b=t9DThYbOxc0+rjUYUyF0SWhBFMimjQIj8KnqKWVqKDOfztZvpgGcyjO1U tPh2YJr0EfCB70E+YKPvVqDKp19UGGyResYcfwgyzMsW10wY57Jum1rPLQjWYK7t umMdnQdA45VdMwDb98OVONkti23jKiY6kB4cWiD1iL6hAmgVXhxBxreYPw9MhS8Y +M8q/BRpySlXDl/lvGrb/VEjYiu9Ybw6MGyyJIyjyhxD4rgydCBSzYmCrAVR8Tir H4XM04XjZGi/lALCEvY4A/5YndxIJwg+MQJDXEx80IVDSL1Ol2wLoGNY5MKK69H0 IOjiIKMQP8Wmk6JwIDU4EbACDPiJA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrjedtgddufeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 00C23240057 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:29:49 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <935bf3ac-d2e0-596d-39d7-426489b01803@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:29:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 20:29:53 -0000 On 2/16/21 2:19 PM, Lars Eggert wrote: > I fail to understand how chartering this WG prevents discussion of and work on other initiatives that can make far more of a difference in terms of inclusivity. I think the problem is that some people see this as a first step.   Others see it as a distraction at best, maybe a step in the wrong direction, and potentially an excuse to allow the organization to avoid addressing what seems like the much larger part of the problem, when actually the problem already seems decades overdue. The latter perception might be reinforced because it's been months since the initial charter discussion, nothing has happened in the interim to help get the document out the door, and we're still stuck on this really narrow discussion as if somehow it is _the_ problem.   It doesn't help that people keep characterizing anything that doesn't fit their narrow agenda as "not helpful" or "obstructionist". Another aspect is that different people define inclusivity in very different ways, and sometimes those result in conflicting goals.   Just an example, I don't personally believe that pigeonholing people makes things more inclusive at all; I think it's exactly the opposite.   Other people, as best as I can tell, seem to think it's exactly what is needed.   So there's an inherent conflict. I hope that everyone can acknowledge that this is an unusually divisive topic, which increases the potential for ratholing and heated discussions.   I also hope that everyone can see that there's more than one view on this topic that has merit.   The challenge is to see merit in others' views even when they disagree with us. > I see this as starting a particular effort that we've discussed for a long time and have at least some consensus on. This is a beginning, not an end? If "this" is an effort to police language in IETF, I hope it ends quickly, because I think that even though we should update our language, the discussion is almost inherently toxic.   Part of the reason is that people want to fight their (often region-specific) political battles on IETF's territory, and the most IETF can gain from such battles is to be collateral damage. If "this" is an effort to make IETF more inclusive, the sooner we move off of the topic of policing people's language, and to addressing the larger barriers to effective participation, the better.   Even if we still come back to the topic of language, if we do it in a broader context of other discussions about inclusion, I suspect those language discussions will be more productive. Keith From nobody Tue Feb 16 22:32:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DA93A1585 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 22:32:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=EW4gAMkh; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=VHiedbAA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j-0Lem66eepZ for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 22:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC5683A1583 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 22:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7C05C00D4 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2021 01:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Feb 2021 01:32:47 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=pOI29pd o9gCe4W5F7vxwj33Sq9WZsXjXHjDwsr93CCk=; b=EW4gAMkhpmX2ZRvy5ZE5uFL esmsvCVpcvm9O3WGsDiheQVTKQQh8elh4MZyFLdxxu5kSb7Su8pYiYuLQLKA/xSF zMWMiPfTEuSJ/4jMHJlKi6WcJgSBbuWpADPWv/0BsTxMyVsI9kMlR2s/V2DJMYis MD8jOpWdcM8rh2M28KwR4kaGyKcvgXZLklICj3R3NddABwwCRXJ2lPR/eTpgDm6z KVeDGOrLNGu125nvx+LyjsqJj3cxTWR6uCE0Ou7xVnCsnXW0hxWI7/S1XXZrInP0 MsVmJStGxkjq/Dm3GK5sh1JeJ2RDp8PDJKC9T97jf2CVPNtCuu+h8swMJAXdm9g= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=pOI29p do9gCe4W5F7vxwj33Sq9WZsXjXHjDwsr93CCk=; b=VHiedbAAed74m4hHdJbGUk TdiKOt0rzxY0AnNriU1WRh27Ej31MmnFOFykFc5UlT/TdHeP0cW8yacZybTLi2zd kUV5z1Fy9BohJ2lzky8Bdsh+tAfz+fOzXBO5DHhO5j/vqktRtx88cgOO/bNkoxzp q8Ea6owQkMgrQRH9UQYfv12mHJNqAunGiK6Aw2iM9XqhZtJ9rpSh0rjbUB1W/mDg VxQqsU2jm7Gli6wFmFa6ftJ5RW5VmWt12BRUijt7al12WvP4gPX9StWLuu4unwEy hm24mH/80QbB1gB9TlYGgOwWcdpptXta4SgSOx5q3JhOxMu7QWR69k6VUGFv3fog == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrjedugdelgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehf rghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvdduueeihefgvd ehueeujeejuedugfeigfevteefleetfeffgfdtjeejgfeuuddvnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmhgrih hlthgvrghmrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 419F936005C; Wed, 17 Feb 2021 01:32:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-141-gf094924a34-fm-20210210.001-gf094924a Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <095da011-cf21-473f-8798-7bebb13d041e@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <935bf3ac-d2e0-596d-39d7-426489b01803@network-heretics.com> References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> <935bf3ac-d2e0-596d-39d7-426489b01803@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 17:32:24 +1100 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=652426acebb0455e9c2d760fa577b6bd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 06:32:51 -0000 --652426acebb0455e9c2d760fa577b6bd Content-Type: text/plain On Wed, Feb 17, 2021, at 07:29, Keith Moore wrote: > If "this" is an effort to make IETF more inclusive, the sooner we move > off of the topic of policing people's language, and to addressing the > larger barriers to effective participation, the better. In the immortal words of a great philosopher "the sooner we get there, the sooner we can leave". So let's get this thing chartered, get a document out the door along the lines of what everyone seems to agree on, i.e. "controversial terms considered harmful" and get back to solving the larger barriers. Cheers, Bron. -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --652426acebb0455e9c2d760fa577b6bd Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=353d6b83a2e44cc3b1aef86c4cda9759 --353d6b83a2e44cc3b1aef86c4cda9759 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Feb 17, 2021, at 07:29, Keith Moore wrote:
If "this" is an effort to make IETF more inclusive, the soone= r we move 
off of the to= pic of policing people's language, and to addressing the 
=
larger barriers to effective participa= tion, the better. 

In the immortal word= s of a great philosopher "the sooner we get there, the sooner we can lea= ve".
So let's get this thing chartered, get a document o= ut the door along the lines of what everyone seems to agree on, i.e. "co= ntroversial terms considered harmful" and get back to solving the larger= barriers.

Cheers,

Bron.

--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com

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<21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> <935bf3ac-d2e0-596d-39d7-426489b01803@network-heretics.com> <095da011-cf21-473f-8798-7bebb13d041e@dogfood.fastmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <52bb3032-3885-f01a-2518-1fa7fdcb4d7b@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 21:08:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <095da011-cf21-473f-8798-7bebb13d041e@dogfood.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5D9072F80774FED1E7D4DA3A" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 02:09:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5D9072F80774FED1E7D4DA3A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/17/21 1:32 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2021, at 07:29, Keith Moore wrote: >> If "this" is an effort to make IETF more inclusive, the sooner we move >> off of the topic of policing people's language, and to addressing the >> larger barriers to effective participation, the better. > > In the immortal words of a great philosopher "the sooner we get there, > the sooner we can leave". I think it's rather, the sooner we stop spending time on peripheral issues, the sooner we can tackle the difficult/important/central issues. Keith --------------5D9072F80774FED1E7D4DA3A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 2/17/21 1:32 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote:

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021, at 07:29, Keith Moore wrote:
If "this" is an effort to make IETF more inclusive, the sooner we move 
off of the topic of policing people's language, and to addressing the 
larger barriers to effective participation, the better. 

In the immortal words of a great philosopher "the sooner we get there, the sooner we can leave".

I think it's rather, the sooner we stop spending time on peripheral issues, the sooner we can tackle the difficult/important/central issues.

Keith

--------------5D9072F80774FED1E7D4DA3A-- From nobody Thu Feb 18 02:51:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DBAF3A1045 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 02:51:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SG23pZiqfAeP for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 02:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72C983A102B for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 02:51:30 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> <935bf3ac-d2e0-596d-39d7-426489b01803@network-heretics.com> <095da011-cf21-473f-8798-7bebb13d041e@dogfood.fastmail.com> <52bb3032-3885-f01a-2518-1fa7fdcb4d7b@network-heretics.com> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <54d6d2c0-70b6-a855-5a62-35d860b8e716@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 11:51:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <52bb3032-3885-f01a-2518-1fa7fdcb4d7b@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.greenhost.nl X-Scan-Signature: 76f3589a93270604ea078d468a2051b3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 10:51:38 -0000 On 18-02-2021 03:08, Keith Moore wrote: > On 2/17/21 1:32 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > >> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021, at 07:29, Keith Moore wrote: >>> If "this" is an effort to make IETF more inclusive, the sooner we move  >>> off of the topic of policing people's language, and to addressing the  >>> larger barriers to effective participation, the better.  >> >> In the immortal words of a great philosopher "the sooner we get there, the sooner we can leave". > > I think it's rather, the sooner we stop spending time on peripheral issues, the sooner we can tackle the difficult/important/central issues. > Dear Keith, Could you make perhaps make a list or even and Internet-Draft of the 'difficult/important/central issues' you would like to discuss so we can open a separate thread and work on those? Others can then continue this work. We can do both things in parallel so we don't waste any time and make a lot of progress on an issue we clearly all care very much about. Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever, PhD Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf From nobody Thu Feb 18 02:52:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F26B3A1036 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 02:52:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fq3_GiOU41Jz for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 02:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EC603A1031 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 02:52:34 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <8f72384f-e494-f3df-60d9-1d10ecb30bd6@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 11:52:27 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.greenhost.nl X-Scan-Signature: 1fac81774939798d1cdb19633eb460de Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 10:52:37 -0000 On 11-02-2021 21:39, Sean Turner wrote: > Hi!, > > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG. > > Cheers, > spt > > ---------- > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF. > > Milestones: > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations > I support the adoption of this charter and look forward to contributing to the work. Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever, PhD Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf From nobody Thu Feb 18 03:34:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D6F3A10C0 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 03:34:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LT1QQunBg7OG for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 03:34:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75B0F3A10BF for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 03:34:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797B49DD for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 06:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 18 Feb 2021 06:34:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=k96GwdURQWeJRhN0GLdyFo+R8dpy6151Vcg0Z59j7 uM=; b=mbXpSHfnH1PcMvH3oS1hGNoz0I2JjJky15KiS2+SLl5lOdFTGufB4zmkn wl0x5rwH1kkRo1bXNvd1+0Ja50C6EjpTW4NsDUu94mnBshMMLczWXp8MTSev6c9a UBXcFZ4fWaLxcOJ9LdUh4X7D19xJi5ltK0ybJz8TAO2X5tyJgKDpgUyzdBNPtFC9 nDenIQtxb/UzKtnbdeTKheA1bFC+iLH+Ucsi/MawkUg4Rn3Cu6SQTiqA8j3ooasa gm6jvhLoaNtYJs9WtuSrIkqCxcZEsiSkzKeDg7yALVaxNp3y8u/FmCuQ0RLx+ILk jgkJlBn8bV+IVuAr7cHsH8DlWpspA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrjeeggddvjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkedvgefgleeule ekuefhffehgefhhfekuedvudduiefhhedufefftdfgtdekfffgnecukfhppedujedvrdeh kedriedtrdduieeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [172.20.10.5] (unknown [172.58.60.166]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 46E2C240068 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 06:34:26 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> <935bf3ac-d2e0-596d-39d7-426489b01803@network-heretics.com> <095da011-cf21-473f-8798-7bebb13d041e@dogfood.fastmail.com> <52bb3032-3885-f01a-2518-1fa7fdcb4d7b@network-heretics.com> <54d6d2c0-70b6-a855-5a62-35d860b8e716@digitaldissidents.org> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 06:34:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <54d6d2c0-70b6-a855-5a62-35d860b8e716@digitaldissidents.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 11:34:30 -0000 On 2/18/21 5:51 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Could you make perhaps make a list or even and Internet-Draft of the 'difficult/important/central issues' you would like to discuss so we can open a separate thread and work on those? Others can then continue this work. Already working on it, and I'm looking for collaborators. Keith From nobody Thu Feb 18 03:51:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5615F3A10FA for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 03:51:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OnTpF_tBrOaE for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 03:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A39433A10F6 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 03:51:16 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> <935bf3ac-d2e0-596d-39d7-426489b01803@network-heretics.com> <095da011-cf21-473f-8798-7bebb13d041e@dogfood.fastmail.com> <52bb3032-3885-f01a-2518-1fa7fdcb4d7b@network-heretics.com> <54d6d2c0-70b6-a855-5a62-35d860b8e716@digitaldissidents.org> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:51:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.greenhost.nl X-Scan-Signature: 919fae14bc17c74543a025539baad412 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 11:51:18 -0000 On 18-02-2021 12:34, Keith Moore wrote: > On 2/18/21 5:51 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: > >> Could you make perhaps make a list or even and Internet-Draft of the 'difficult/important/central issues' you would like to discuss so we can open a separate thread and work on those? Others can then continue this work. > > Already working on it, and I'm looking for collaborators. > Great, looking forward to it! Always happy to discuss! Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever, PhD Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf From nobody Thu Feb 18 04:44:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DF73A11A0 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 04:44:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="33483361" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 18 Feb 2021 12:44:32 +0000 Received: from [10.61.226.106] ([10.61.226.106]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11ICiWUx030097 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:44:32 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <8DF358F9-D331-4980-A97C-0F87192CCCA6@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F26B9788-1166-46C7-82C3-5545F7095C1C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:44:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <54d6d2c0-70b6-a855-5a62-35d860b8e716@digitaldissidents.org> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Niels ten Oever References: <681a1e99-68a3-4079-b5fb-37d015c3722c@www.fastmail.com> <21B2B2C6-5F2A-47C4-92BC-F184D93AAC40@cisco.com> <935bf3ac-d2e0-596d-39d7-426489b01803@network-heretics.com> <095da011-cf21-473f-8798-7bebb13d041e@dogfood.fastmail.com> <52bb3032-3885-f01a-2518-1fa7fdcb4d7b@network-heretics.com> <54d6d2c0-70b6-a855-5a62-35d860b8e716@digitaldissidents.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.226.106, [10.61.226.106] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft charter text: terminology-related WG X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:44:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F26B9788-1166-46C7-82C3-5545F7095C1C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_53834B7D-AE06-405F-8C6F-9556BBA65B4B" --Apple-Mail=_53834B7D-AE06-405F-8C6F-9556BBA65B4B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 +1 > On 18 Feb 2021, at 11:51, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 18-02-2021 03:08, Keith Moore wrote: >> On 2/17/21 1:32 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote: >>=20 >>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021, at 07:29, Keith Moore wrote: >>>> If "this" is an effort to make IETF more inclusive, the sooner we = move >>>> off of the topic of policing people's language, and to addressing = the >>>> larger barriers to effective participation, the better. >>>=20 >>> In the immortal words of a great philosopher "the sooner we get = there, the sooner we can leave". >>=20 >> I think it's rather, the sooner we stop spending time on peripheral = issues, the sooner we can tackle the difficult/important/central issues. >>=20 >=20 > Dear Keith, >=20 > Could you make perhaps make a list or even and Internet-Draft of the = 'difficult/important/central issues' you would like to discuss so we can = open a separate thread and work on those? Others can then continue this = work. >=20 > We can do both things in parallel so we don't waste any time and make = a lot of progress on an issue we clearly all care very much about. >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 > -- > Niels ten Oever, PhD > Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of = Amsterdam > Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European = University Viadrina > Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Funda=C3=A7=C3=A3= o Get=C3=BAlio Vargas >=20 > W: https://nielstenoever.net > E: mail@nielstenoever.net > T: @nielstenoever > P/S/WA: +31629051853 > PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >=20 > Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: = https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf = >=20 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch = --Apple-Mail=_53834B7D-AE06-405F-8C6F-9556BBA65B4B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +1

On 18 Feb 2021, at 11:51, Niels ten Oever <lists@digitaldissidents.org> wrote:



On 18-02-2021 03:08, Keith Moore wrote:
On = 2/17/21 1:32 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote:

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021, at = 07:29, Keith Moore wrote:
If "this" is an effort to make IETF more inclusive, the = sooner we move 
off of the topic of policing people's = language, and to addressing the 
larger barriers to = effective participation, the better. 

In the immortal words of a great philosopher "the sooner we = get there, the sooner we can leave".

I think it's rather, the sooner we stop spending time on = peripheral issues, the sooner we can tackle the = difficult/important/central issues.


Dear Keith,

Could you make perhaps make a list or even and Internet-Draft = of the 'difficult/important/central issues' you would like to discuss so = we can open a separate thread and work on those? Others can then = continue this work. 

We can do both things in = parallel so we don't waste any time and make a lot of progress on an = issue we clearly all care very much about. 

Best,

Niels


-- 
Niels ten Oever, PhD
Postdoctoral Researcher - Media = Studies Department - University of Amsterdam
Research Fellow - Centre for = Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina
Associated Scholar - Centro de = Tecnologia e Sociedade - Funda=C3=A7=C3=A3o Get=C3=BAlio = Vargas

W: https://nielstenoever.net
E: mail@nielstenoever.net
T: @nielstenoever
P/S/WA: +31629051853
PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 = 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3

Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf

-- 
Gendispatch mailing = list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

= --Apple-Mail=_53834B7D-AE06-405F-8C6F-9556BBA65B4B-- --Apple-Mail=_F26B9788-1166-46C7-82C3-5545F7095C1C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAuYS4ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOD3wgA0GzDLYYF+/29wAQPdoq90U9iQmJ0fkthbDCiujwq9I7vi9qqXNzUuuZ8 XigBLt57Ubu9kjPjPchfm7UQ2a2J9BzVVPyk58hPcPSWMPKY3Od7+PZpTaGwhca3 zOKX4Bi5LuflyaXtASdUrhdKlroqwDSK8kgbzXxVvr986urZZlqb2sW2FhqvbnjN rBR+TM6B2q5iSITuHup5oVgiHJPJ5dNZD1EwGvpPHe4YQjXanRUF33sQim9TCMyX P5KGL+PhwRYowovAzA/bZjN/jpZ0ExVyCeiocCTN49xaqCePUrYl3JPDUisiq7DK jWMQPsa/rsaU87o1lou+hfNAJxJ/pQ== =CkWD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F26B9788-1166-46C7-82C3-5545F7095C1C-- From nobody Sat Feb 20 18:17:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4902A3A1260 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 18:17:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SYZ87ar_ZibL for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 18:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pch.net (keriomail.pch.net [206.220.231.84]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A29263A125F for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 18:17:46 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: cGNoLm5ldA== Received: from [10.19.48.6] ([69.166.14.2]) by mail.pch.net (Kerio Connect 9.2.7 patch 3) with ESMTPS (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits)) for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 18:17:44 -0800 From: Bill Woodcock Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D284BD6E-8DDD-4CB8-8633-57CDEA918CA7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 03:17:40 +0100 To: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] draft-knodel-terminology-04 expires next Thursday. X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 02:17:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D284BD6E-8DDD-4CB8-8633-57CDEA918CA7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I note that the excellent draft-knodel-terminology-04 is currently set = to expire this upcoming Thursday. The draft has my full support, and I hope we can move forward with it, = whether individually or by merging with = draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and/or = draft-moore-exclusionary-language. Where are we at on all that? Anything I can do to be helpful? -Bill --Apple-Mail=_D284BD6E-8DDD-4CB8-8633-57CDEA918CA7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEm6XJ0FdpKWJHso4lb6RwSyiLf4cFAmAxwsUACgkQb6RwSyiL f4cEzw//fgrqvKJKDfs+nEYU1GEC/2veTy+dqX1/N9sovqvh2HEBVGkj2/rVp5ZE p2zACq6d8dmc8VrXkuZ972Lzl7rL3BmBQu1zKiMrckyx7IKoVvGcLKfJq0WmqilG roPlv0Q5FWp2pJM5orzgeI0KLmJY0cxfHRUOJrjAKEqaHsf1n1yKa+D+5ImA0G1w 0vglCyc4n3+WoLKJr/vz75MZfuQnBVX5nGIACt9t51kZSSzRB+CZjukCdI+Bdk0k /mYnI5lrqE3S/Ayqb3Lhr/fTrBVTUxOKyN201I2eXGmVRktylC+BgcwdFzp5Zoau uIa1VbCjx3HEG13jhRpqx3bcCjFzeVv9crOnrhn+G8DhJuaVlZo480Q4N9JT9aJ1 S5dL25NQ1rpZ1RwXqbh3o0ehV3IuP4PG0E47eei4Mr37gvUyjr4GkKO0B35yoC03 hkM/LvDmuw2YoqzdkWu0rAOe7EgV2WVaO0Y/xeloH1IzPwtC1u/CG5ebJ9Iyoj/N sqxRdI3MSbvX5OupdWZoZ8lQQ1PFsS2y64CQOZoRVOkoYyHPugCst7yatIWtrXBC uaQF1znlg7mbP4owURfkooDy/LRn7zCS7C2+JJfKuSFTqLqhMREAXDg1plHmYSBz sXQHuFvJk9iQAwgkHqTG4yMDRU31eH42HaKK3S8oL3Mha5wCVfI= =tzax -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D284BD6E-8DDD-4CB8-8633-57CDEA918CA7-- From nobody Sun Feb 21 13:29:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF203A11A3 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:29:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G3Sm0rUkoL2g for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EAEC3A11A2 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF68D72F6B3; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:29:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sIMAq9_WQ9qe; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:29:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.16.1.27] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 85AB4D72F69C; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:29:30 -0600 (CST) From: Pete Resnick To: Bill Woodcock Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:29:29 -0600 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5769) Message-ID: <7009ED87-1A6C-4CF1-A432-9E4AB78D8938@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft-knodel-terminology-04 expires next Thursday. X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 21:29:39 -0000 On 20 Feb 2021, at 20:17, Bill Woodcock wrote: > I note that the excellent draft-knodel-terminology-04 is currently set > to expire this upcoming Thursday. > > The draft has my full support, and I hope we can move forward with it, > whether individually or by merging with > draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and/or > draft-moore-exclusionary-language. > > Where are we at on all that? Anything I can do to be helpful? Hi Bill, As per the summary of the two virtual interim meetings that took place post-IETF-108 (see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/6Od2aX-uiYGdYCKZqfvrOHHtY58), it was the rough consensus of GENDISPATCH that a "quick-spin" WG be formed to take on these issues and that draft-gondwana (rather than draft-knodel) would be a reasonable starting point for that WG's work. A draft charter started floating around last week, and we expect work to take place there if the WG is chartered. I'm sure the AD and the proponents of the WG would appreciate your comments on the proposed charter (see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/Zm8vtslsgMO-PbIEujvtZodVJBg). Until the official WG Review announcement goes out, it appears that this list is being used for discussion of the charter. In my opinion, if the WG gets chartered, it is almost certain that some of the ideas in draft-knodel will be merged into the WG's document(s). Cheers, pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Mon Feb 22 05:29:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88563A09BB; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 05:29:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X2noJeYhjtEC; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 05:29:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db8eur05on2051.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.20.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A51293A09B5; 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[108.31.39.252]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l137sm12845088qke.6.2021.02.22.07.59.08 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 07:59:08 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:59:07 -0500 References: To: GENDISPATCH List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:59:13 -0000 Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the = penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph = is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and = "blacklist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this = suggestion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I = thought, leaving them in gives context for external readers. (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see much = support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. (3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9CInclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some = people want to spend time defining inclusive first. Cheers, spt -------- Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) ---- The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents.=20 The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general = principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will = also point out potentially problematic terms and potential alternatives, = or link to an updateable resource containing such information. The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single = deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering = inclusivity in the IETF. Milestones: July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations=20 > On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >=20 > Hi!, >=20 > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >=20 > Cheers, > spt >=20 > ---------- >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents.=20 >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF.=20 >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations From nobody Mon Feb 22 08:21:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49DE83A1D8F for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:20:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qw2yeKspJPx9 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E760D3A1D62 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DknVG4btQz1nsyb; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:20:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1614010854; bh=wsXzXpjPDd4JwRYT2f+VtFiEDqgVuJYr2ZMWqxfzGjg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=b4Cp3CvJTv0ZDjG6lAsyykBQFH7FrcJ0kF5FH8KLNOlfm4dHmCYEz9PTACnD0UwVf iM6yyB/B92FAu9zAO91XFm1VQfX+IgVJgjQR3BKpk7YVD8dlR0rh1UvpoRzEY5Gbn7 ERI2QbueaJ30moyAIuUB0DkVZ5qF//pIGYpilkZM= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DknVG0n5Bz1nsx9; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:20:53 -0800 (PST) To: Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <411bfb92-49a3-e96a-f34b-18b49d83ac00@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:20:52 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:20:56 -0000 Looks good to me. Thanks Sean. Joel On 2/22/2021 10:59 AM, Sean Turner wrote: > Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: > > (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and "blacklist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this suggestion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought, leaving them in gives context for external readers. > > (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see much support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. > > (3) recommendation to replace “Effective” with “Inclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people want to spend time defining inclusive first. > > Cheers, > spt > > -------- > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will also point out potentially problematic terms and potential alternatives, or link to an updateable resource containing such information. > > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering inclusivity in the IETF. > > Milestones: > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations > >> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >> >> Hi!, >> >> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG. >> >> Cheers, >> spt >> >> ---------- >> >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >> >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >> >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. >> >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF. >> >> Milestones: >> >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations > From nobody Mon Feb 22 08:21:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698C93A1D62 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:21:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o2iMvGDbOI8y for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D24833A1D90 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id y7so57455361lji.7 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:21:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d+JUyObdGTT3fbt6HwREGgKKra9+YG0elzT4dNjeHiE=; b=mPlcwxRyfpG0XtyU2jRsQczNIfsQ7jdGfL1qsTR5LU7BqtB9bQo/7lLupAR85qAOd7 cJ4u4DaJo37fBeh23TOQcxhkohgJTziugKA+Fm6LL1rfY47K9HM73QNjk/vkcuG8bg/Z bqDB79v6D40HxO6J/0BeBa21+t1D4eDHoZPGpSQ8khcR4OJBbPngUeBKhvaBz74bhmg2 ixXS6HlxRiwWZ66STuQkFyyxvo8Yn2lnNDyz4Ql/0XcSuQtrPWEnc3IZuxt8aMUwj3HO QRsNoKc6dTFrnM0Xn2mectPmbZmAxNAfHG0tifWkrhmZ9oXdKguc3wD9uxdxR8sDjhzK GMuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d+JUyObdGTT3fbt6HwREGgKKra9+YG0elzT4dNjeHiE=; b=Bd0a96Hoh/z5hUeQwLsl8WIsDt/ZJsFQjcdvZJqPAEOHeC7FVBjeAKci7GWUnm9yuj aCpY0Rx2OoUOgKt6xEFNQz9w8aoTyrkb7Yje7yU76b+GQNd2ZheAT9EIMOjCFCHj/Mi4 I2hOkRGBl8BD1pRjVPtPyjyApvWvlIb3Kuiu0pKwW2vXAi7//yMSDRxtJhVhtxZG7mcK gKekHM2eInQmqoBIojZRMjgfIxMT4yyVA5ts3FsCQ65TQb4dFrqYtMnvnBjl/vC9i2ec 0aLEx8CMos1l+2hKc69LXSvTL+Nv/fmBr7hGYXFWbw+Eo+v9gTdgye73p0/sr/Fpa0mX qyeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531RMcbYiqBXLnrLqALoJ73U9euSsJFEOO+rlk++o4PEuisRR9tM gOF1C9bG8E4g0mpdi0GmNsiTNcl7aljo4M0YtmeNdA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbPPUmCg160adIJU/mBbhgXkCjHkfyLPYoIXtwPKQO33FOTGxYgQt/qsNyeArkxuAuSyql0Yqn6P4PtT95gnY= X-Received: by 2002:a19:e91:: with SMTP id 139mr4610876lfo.132.1614010870890; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:21:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:20:35 -0800 Message-ID: To: Sean Turner Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009f966805bbef30c2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:21:15 -0000 --0000000000009f966805bbef30c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LGTM. Ship it. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 7:59 AM Sean Turner wrote: > Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the > penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph = is > new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: > > (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and > "blacklist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this > suggestion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought, > leaving them in gives context for external readers. > > (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see much > support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. > > (3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9CI= nclusive" in the WG name. > I didn't see much support and some people want to spend time defining > inclusive first. > > Cheers, > spt > > -------- > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality= , > relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, a= nd > manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC > publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, > consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most > effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely > accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there ha= s > been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the > technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9Cmast= er/slave=E2=80=9D > and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in technical documentation and= whether those and > other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF > participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF > community would benefit from informational recommendations about using > effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational > RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work > produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general principles for judging > when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will also point out potential= ly > problematic terms and potential alternatives, or link to an updateable > resource containing such information. > > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single > deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering > inclusivity in the IETF. > > Milestones: > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendation= s > > > On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: > > > > Hi!, > > > > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related W= G. > > > > Cheers, > > spt > > > > ---------- > > > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > > ---- > > > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high > quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people desig= n, > use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of > the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, > clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are > most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and wide= ly > accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there > has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in > the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as > =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D)= in technical documentation and > whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions > vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement > that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations > about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > > > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an > Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in > technical work produced by the IETF. > > > > Milestones: > > > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology > recommendations > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --0000000000009f966805bbef30c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
LGTM. Ship it.

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 7:59 AM Sean Tur= ner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
=
Here is some revise= d draft charter text.=C2=A0 There are some edits in the penultimate paragra= ph to address comments on list and the last paragraph is new. There were al= so three suggestions I did not address:

(3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and &qu= ot;blacklist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on thi= s suggestion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought,= leaving them in gives context for external readers.

(2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see much= support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome.

(3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9CInc= lusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people = want to spend time defining inclusive first.

Cheers,
spt

--------

Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM)
----

The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, = relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and= manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the = RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, c= onsistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most = effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely acce= ssible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures.

In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has = been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the t= echnology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9Cmaster/= slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in technical docu= mentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. Wh= ile opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is genera= l agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recomm= endations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents= .

The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational R= FC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produ= ced by the IETF. The RFC will express general principles for judging when l= anguage is inclusive or exclusive. It will also point out potentially probl= ematic terms and potential alternatives, or link to an updateable resource = containing such information.

The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single delive= rable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering inclusivity = in the IETF.

Milestones:

July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations =

> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
>
> Hi!,
>
> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG.
>
> Cheers,
> spt
>
> ----------
>
> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM)
> ----
>
> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qual= ity, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use= , and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of= the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, cle= ar, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are = most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely= accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures.
>
> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there= has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in = the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9Cma= ster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in technical= documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivit= y. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is g= eneral agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational r= ecommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF docu= ments.
>
> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informatio= nal RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work = produced by the IETF.
>
> Milestones:
>
> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendat= ions

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[66.232.219.23]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id r15sm3737420otq.77.2021.02.22.08.21.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:21:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:21:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:86.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/86.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <411bfb92-49a3-e96a-f34b-18b49d83ac00@joelhalpern.com> From: Mallory Knodel In-Reply-To: <411bfb92-49a3-e96a-f34b-18b49d83ac00@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:21:34 -0000 Thanks, Sean. I support this charter text. -M On 2/22/21 11:20 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Looks good to me.  Thanks Sean. > Joel > > On 2/22/2021 10:59 AM, Sean Turner wrote: >> Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the >> penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last >> paragraph is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: >> >> (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and >> "blacklist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this >> suggestion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I >> thought, leaving them in gives context for external readers. >> >> (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see >> much support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. >> >> (3) recommendation to replace “Effective” with “Inclusive" in >> the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people want to spend >> time defining inclusive first. >> >> Cheers, >> spt >> >> -------- >> >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >> >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high >> quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people >> design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The >> ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents >> that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs >> and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that >> is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying >> backgrounds and cultures. >> >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, >> there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards >> organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of >> certain terms (such as “master/slave” and >> “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether >> those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions >> vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general >> agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational >> recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in >> IETF documents. >> >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an >> Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in >> technical work produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general >> principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive. It >> will also point out potentially problematic terms and potential >> alternatives, or link to an updateable resource containing such >> information. >> >> The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single >> deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering >> inclusivity in the IETF. >> >> Milestones: >> >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology >> recommendations >> >>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >>> >>> Hi!, >>> >>> Here is some proposed charter text to address the >>> terminology-related WG. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> spt >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >>> ---- >>> >>> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high >>> quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people >>> design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The >>> ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents >>> that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs >>> and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology >>> that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from >>> varying backgrounds and cultures. >>> >>> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, >>> there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards >>> organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of >>> certain terms (such as “master/slave” and >>> “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether >>> those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions >>> vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general >>> agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational >>> recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in >>> IETF documents. >>> >>> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an >>> Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use >>> in technical work produced by the IETF. >>> >>> Milestones: >>> >>> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology >>> recommendations >> > -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Mon Feb 22 08:40:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5213A09DE for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 08:40:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com 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N3FHRllLR0pnJA0KDQo= From nobody Mon Feb 22 11:37:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29F43A1F89 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:36:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3NbR1i436f3Q for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 133083A1F56 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76F4BE47; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:36:51 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fblvKbPItAbt; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:36:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 88399BE2F; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:36:49 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1614022609; bh=jfISZ4129WCck4W/xrOsQK6T8vzGTGiJ4EfBMxPU/0Y=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=evNSPitZsMpKc0bk2ROBNsgGK4a00vT4LaAalsXqXHsboXrzN6SjrixDohcyU9vmT e3VLqzIZEtRjmY7xLK2eg3wWED5XszmZRCjVxwhbVvXq/haAmr+yZpa7AZ7dTcGyOP IXZLleOt76gM44OJNavbjD/kZg1YtPJ1ysxGzL7A= To: Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <1dc43479-60d5-11c1-ebad-3a83f6511019@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:36:48 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Y6pMdOlzUUoYQqXl0B7X741Ir0Xq7HFED" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:37:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Y6pMdOlzUUoYQqXl0B7X741Ir0Xq7HFED Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="C4ebVD0RsZovb9DweoYke7W8OMtllL0sF"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: <1dc43479-60d5-11c1-ebad-3a83f6511019@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> --C4ebVD0RsZovb9DweoYke7W8OMtllL0sF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7836AB8E921C9EC9D9F530A1" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7836AB8E921C9EC9D9F530A1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm also fine with that fwiw, Cheers, S. On 22/02/2021 15:59, Sean Turner wrote: > Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the p= enultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph i= s new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: >=20 > (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and "blacklis= t/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this suggestion a= nd the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought, leaving the= m in gives context for external readers. >=20 > (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see much= support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. >=20 > (3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9C= Inclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people want= to spend time defining inclusive first. >=20 > Cheers, > spt >=20 > -------- >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quali= ty, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, us= e, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of t= he RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, cle= ar, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are mos= t effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely = accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in= the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9C= master/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in techn= ical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on incl= usivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, th= ere is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from infor= mational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology = in IETF documents. >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Information= al RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work= produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general principles for judgin= g when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will also point out potenti= ally problematic terms and potential alternatives, or link to an updateab= le resource containing such information. >=20 > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single de= liverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering inclus= ivity in the IETF. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendati= ons >=20 >> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >> >> Hi!, >> >> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >> >> Cheers, >> spt >> >> ---------- >> >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >> >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qual= ity, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, u= se, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of = the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, cl= ear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are mo= st effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely= accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >> >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there= has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and i= n the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9C= master/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in techn= ical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on incl= usivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, th= ere is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from infor= mational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology = in IETF documents. >> >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informatio= nal RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical wor= k produced by the IETF. >> >> Milestones: >> >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendat= ions >=20 --------------7836AB8E921C9EC9D9F530A1 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 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<50b72d89-ccbe-ad96-4724-c629ef2756ad@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:47:30 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:47:39 -0000 This version looks good to me. Regards Brian On 23-Feb-21 04:59, Sean Turner wrote: > Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the p= enultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph i= s new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: >=20 > (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and "blacklis= t/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this suggestion a= nd the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought, leaving the= m in gives context for external readers. >=20 > (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see much= support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. >=20 > (3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9C= Inclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people want= to spend time defining inclusive first. >=20 > Cheers, > spt >=20 > -------- >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quali= ty, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, us= e, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of t= he RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, cle= ar, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are mos= t effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely = accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in= the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9C= master/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in techn= ical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on incl= usivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, th= ere is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from infor= mational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology = in IETF documents.=20 >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Information= al RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work= produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general principles for judgin= g when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will also point out potenti= ally problematic terms and potential alternatives, or link to an updateab= le resource containing such information. >=20 > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single de= liverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering inclus= ivity in the IETF. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendati= ons=20 >=20 >> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >> >> Hi!, >> >> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >> >> Cheers, >> spt >> >> ---------- >> >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >> >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qual= ity, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, u= se, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of = the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, cl= ear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are mo= st effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely= accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >> >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there= has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and i= n the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9C= master/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in techn= ical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on incl= usivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, th= ere is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from infor= mational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology = in IETF documents.=20 >> >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informatio= nal RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical wor= k produced by the IETF.=20 >> >> Milestones: >> >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendat= ions >=20 From nobody Mon Feb 22 14:10:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7BC3A2101 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:10:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wD-rM3SBRkhe for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pch.net (keriomail.pch.net [206.220.231.84]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 271523A20E5 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:10:42 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: cGNoLm5ldA== Received: from [10.19.48.6] ([69.166.14.2]) by mail.pch.net (Kerio Connect 9.2.7 patch 3) with ESMTPS (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits)); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:10:38 -0800 From: Bill Woodcock Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_531700C6-471E-40D4-84BE-F4D015400DB4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:10:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> Cc: GENDISPATCH List To: Sean Turner References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:10:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_531700C6-471E-40D4-84BE-F4D015400DB4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Looks good to me. I support moving forward without further changes. > On Feb 22, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Sean Turner wrote: >=20 > Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the = penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph = is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: >=20 > (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and = "blacklist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this = suggestion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I = thought, leaving them in gives context for external readers. >=20 > (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see = much support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. >=20 > (3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9CInclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some = people want to spend time defining inclusive first. >=20 > Cheers, > spt >=20 > -------- >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general = principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will = also point out potentially problematic terms and potential alternatives, = or link to an updateable resource containing such information. >=20 > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single = deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering = inclusivity in the IETF. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations >=20 >> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >>=20 >> Hi!, >>=20 >> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> spt >>=20 >> ---------- >>=20 >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >>=20 >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. >>=20 >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, = there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, = and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. >>=20 >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF. >>=20 >> Milestones: >>=20 >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations >=20 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -Bill --Apple-Mail=_531700C6-471E-40D4-84BE-F4D015400DB4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEm6XJ0FdpKWJHso4lb6RwSyiLf4cFAmA0K8UACgkQb6RwSyiL f4fbZBAAmuhy50Q38Xr0As7iOJoOtZGHHbAuhZC1IfOw8wa0aOHnnxSEenv3rc5q 12wS+V6TYQCK32kzL5tskTIFVpExBdann3cBQziSW52ws61PZ/bfpqeeHZX9MAAY mZdne7uHEENrgbEa4wNtGGDeCZE6iDd4XT16tnHFkLLTxo/9ZP4xZkEwV18zRxD4 o1+0wh+haWha2yhIFUH3aI8+40EIuHjStNKLJFiNGytx1jI+/xkuiJ3Y0J8Mymt1 yk/rxlzwQ+x9dyQVsn4d+WwmpaI4zQEVKpAWxUEktoO4MwPmSBJKRA6RMCiWZjiS nK6cNXCJxmZE9ZXqP52CUYa2oVz+nOwSi0pX4y3Iysld9HLnA3U7M9y1Vw+dUkY5 M2ln6swkgw0gXE76+48Aez4fbpg0aGCfbBTNHPj6dNRw+9xyjNQuyIuzHsmXxoHq Lj5NSSfz+G/OC98Nf5Awmajp946CdZ/uIWJAGcvyRcuF4pChH3PZ3z47QH2t/tU8 0sz/jn62C/vZBKUnBl/UZ8h3MfwBYGDDWjATYpihGKIEZcdHDK5JAwNYW0B2Sc35 b6BDOmfLldH/QSAGphEwdBXCh72/z9lMyW10xFCEldWawpDOupc3aEhXEU9lr4gv WPRZ0aP/t9NxNqoh5Kyl84CxOwJ3nwK5Tutxqyhvn1XdwXqr9aY= =3e9W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_531700C6-471E-40D4-84BE-F4D015400DB4-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 16:08:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D80C3A2187; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:08:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pgrtcHIcFOgT; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E63963A2195; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B9789280483; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:07:26 +0000 (UTC) To: "'ietf@ietf.org'" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:07:19 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:08:35 -0000 Folks, We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF". The I-D is available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it where necessary/applicable/desired. As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. Thanks! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Feb 22 16:46:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27AC33A2243 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:46:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WEPyNpyOjMG4 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 896813A223C for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFFBC2800B4; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:46:41 +0000 (UTC) To: Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:29:49 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:46:54 -0000 Hello, Sean, On 22/2/21 12:59, Sean Turner wrote: [...] > > (3) recommendation to replace “Effective” with “Inclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people want to spend time defining inclusive first. As someone that has asked a few times what people mean when they talk about diversity and inclusiveness, let me just say that I don't and didn't "want to spend time in defining 'inclusive' first". I was simply concerned about this effort pretending to do something that it wouldn't necessarily do. I believe we are all in agreement that terms that can come across as derogatory should be avoided (if at all employed). However, avoiding derogatory terms does not imply being more inclusive. Coming up with a definition of what we mean by diversity or inclusiveness is not something that requires a lot of time -- it simply requires that we acknowledge what we have in mind, and that we accept that the topic has multiple axes. FWIW, we spent less than 10 minutes in coming with this text as part of draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00: ---- cut here ---- 3. Terminology Throughout this document, whenever we refer to "diversity" or "inclusiveness" we imply including or involving people of: o a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds o different genders o different sexual orientations o different countries and regions o different types of organizations (companies, non-profits, etc.) The above list is non-exhaustive, but should make it evident that "diversity" has multiple axes, and this document does not limit its discussion of diversity to any particular sub-set of them. ---- cut here ---- i.e., diversity encompasses more than one or two axes. So some of us simply wanted that to be acknowledged if any claims on "diversity" were going to be made, or to simply acknowledge that this effort was about tackling derogatory language (as important as that may be). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Feb 22 16:47:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8502B3A2244; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:46:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d9qQiL7ICI8f; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0415C3A223D; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DCE7528012C; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:46:48 +0000 (UTC) To: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" References: <22F034CC-E569-40BE-8BBC-C73A8C3CCF36@ericsson.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <89702217-9b4e-0f56-1ab1-6b5cb1fd8dd5@si6networks.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:38:29 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <22F034CC-E569-40BE-8BBC-C73A8C3CCF36@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Call for agenda items Gendispatch IETF 110 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:46:57 -0000 Hello, Francesca, On 22/2/21 10:29, Francesca Palombini wrote: > Hi all, > > Gendispatch has been scheduled to have an all virtual meeting on Tuesday, 9 March 2021, 1700-1900 (UTC +1). > > The session will happen over Meetecho, and you will need to register to IETF to participate. For more information on how to participate: https://ietf.org/how/meetings/110/session-participant-guide/ > > We are looking for agenda items for this session. If you would like time on the agenda, send your request to the mailing list. Helpful items to include in your request (if known/applicable) are: > > (1) pointers to a draft(s) > (2) pointers to ongoing/prior discussions > (3) pointers to any other background materials > (4) desired next steps > (5) desired time for discussion We'd like to present this document: Title: "Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF" Filename: draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt Presenter(s): Fernando Gont and/or Keith Moore Desired time: 30' (if possible.. otherwise we can adapt) Desired next steps: This may need WG discussion (e.g. document adoption or creation of new wg) Pointers to discussion: Discussion on this topic has taken place on this list, while discussing the TERM wg charter. Thanks! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Feb 22 19:30:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04E83A251D for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:30:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id knur6T8XmwqF for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C48B03A251C for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862E25C01E4 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:30:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=bHooXe5BYMV3B9oapUlRWe0c37jayEySQyLcXBKxS JU=; b=t5KX/s8TplaLP70g/aUByoVZLJGoPUzChhGXpQ1N5PRyfBAO8+KkvNqKL 4Ua+7tAz1hrEtY/Kw7Fqymz4mtimX//NLorJBRKBwRMBV+F/BOlppGjXKturqwpN kXrifEjYudeYhA2mECLkix/nAw/zK67DmJ6NsK6GMnYZuOEI2ml3+CCGDMe1J4Kp YtuGBQn8H4bUUZ9IMuBs1V0P3qqNm3RGmjfn1Tvvse8cKUoKk+xgp/EfSUYOPmKD fokTiC2VV1nsrkqBq0VoV+Pk3qJLAa9A4d9viE0HxHSDEZPdATJGU75lRakq6ox2 Mv8enPnGqX6SeoFsTLtG29DeeJhNA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrkeeggdeitdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgf efgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DD9A91080057 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:30:07 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:30:07 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 03:30:11 -0000 On 2/22/21 7:29 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > Coming up with a definition of what we mean by diversity or > inclusiveness is not something that requires a lot of time -- it > simply requires that we acknowledge what we have in mind, and that we > accept that the topic has multiple axes. I guess I would also say that it's not necessary to argue about or reach consensus on a definition of "inclusiveness" or "diversity", in order to recognize the various kinds of barriers that deter participation in IETF, and to discuss potential ways of addressing some of those barriers.    Let's not get hung up on the meanings of words; let's instead discuss the actual issues. Keith From nobody Mon Feb 22 20:28:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EC13A25BC for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:28:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=D/DXmAkH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Zvh6gllm Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2cP0lwght4wK for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3CF13A25BB for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA785C020F for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:28:40 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=vB4QQ4I gC//ItfMHK8cbgPzl+x6VhlY9/pgvXV+fwwU=; b=D/DXmAkH+aUDClVgxVJIbjm RgrnMGEfZh8gZ2tu8rq+IejkoI0OdH/k2J8UR94NmYw4OmxMsDdSug/+/MRghU98 A2LJqE4veWbrBjdzJFI1vJoBwoQZOU7N4OWJ7G2U3sQ77EimuhiMB0cS5uqXchRN +nCOV8mZyRqxecGB1P2STMMf0aV7jVtVQiuyj99hJaidKUFwgFINX8sdq/P+q0I1 i39jnNsGmurissnhEUDr0IaPLP4r+iGbffKf/q/bFkaf5ihwukV71OIBBNHU2MqW yp7C2cLPZ4BkJoJ3cGdZGsUI8oqmsfziKl60C6qx5tN4kXstMIsSN3hU+Zw65QA= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=vB4QQ4 IgC//ItfMHK8cbgPzl+x6VhlY9/pgvXV+fwwU=; b=Zvh6gllmi/GpLpif04IBgz GuqiLQrsIWhSWfiDvAr6DEmatlCp4CFraTGQBWi9TSYkLmsX3oEB5e85vAoHdRz5 x2OtzT1CZwl3V1aoNAGODmswRw/S0IOCpCdQWNpu8czBYA3UViywMEFYEhaZaNuu nLyArCoNS2mJiWmtMqseSWX/p0+X+tb+cmc0Y8Hu2k9YmawlMmbUe09UCz+/PwD9 FM94Z6m8kezQ96RWRQrH5k/xTsa42FdYtoAXjPROqp09GD033GkQf1fusHGIP2Ja tniiRIOMsGNAyP6j3zng5gN1EVMzmS4xV8CN5u2CyGLZgp0UqOWCda9MJx0QUkBA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrkeeggdejudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehf rghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffdvkeefgeelie eutedttdffheevvefffeekuddvtddtkeeigfejuddvhfdvudelnecuffhomhgrihhnpehi vghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpegsrhhonhhgsehfrghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id EB70D3604EB; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:28:39 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-141-gf094924a34-fm-20210210.001-gf094924a Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:28:19 +1100 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=7455a9b6574e4fdeba363823586c06de Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?revised_=28was=3A_Re=3A_draft_charter_te?= =?utf-8?q?xt=3A_terminology-related_WG=29?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 04:28:46 -0000 --7455a9b6574e4fdeba363823586c06de Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll pop my +1 on this too. Cheers, Bron. On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, at 02:59, Sean Turner wrote: > Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the = penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph= is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: >=20 > (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and "blackli= st/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this suggestion= and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought, leaving = them in gives context for external readers. >=20 > (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see muc= h support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. >=20 > (3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9C= Inclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people wan= t to spend time defining inclusive first. >=20 > Cheers, > spt >=20 > -------- >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qual= ity, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, = use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal o= f the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable,= clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts ar= e most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and w= idely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there= has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80= =9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in t= echnical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on= inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this top= ic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit fro= m informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive term= inology in IETF documents.=20 >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informatio= nal RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical wo= rk produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general principles for jud= ging when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will also point out pot= entially problematic terms and potential alternatives, or link to an upd= ateable resource containing such information. >=20 > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single d= eliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering incl= usivity in the IETF. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendat= ions=20 >=20 > > On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: > >=20 > > Hi!, > >=20 > > Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-relate= d WG. > >=20 > > Cheers, > > spt > >=20 > > ---------- > >=20 > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > > ---- > >=20 > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qu= ality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design= , use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal= of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readabl= e, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts = are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and= widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > >=20 > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, the= re has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, an= d in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2= =80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) i= n technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects= on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this = topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit = from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive t= erminology in IETF documents.=20 > >=20 > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informat= ional RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical = work produced by the IETF.=20 > >=20 > > Milestones: > >=20 > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommend= ations >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --7455a9b6574e4fdeba363823586c06de Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'll pop my +1 on this too.

Cheers,

Bron.

= On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, at 02:59, Sean Turner wrote:
Her= e is some revised draft charter text.  There are some edits in the = penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph= is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address:
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">
(3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and "blac= klist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this suggest= ion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought, leavi= ng them in gives context for external readers.

(2) recomm= endation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see much support an= d it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome.

(3) = recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9CIncl= usive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people want to= spend time defining inclusive first.

Cheers,
spt




The TERM working group is therefore chartered to= produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology = to use in technical work produced by the IETF. The RFC will express gene= ral principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive. It w= ill also point out potentially problematic terms and potential alternati= ves, or link to an updateable resource containing such information.
<= /div>

The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a= single deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at foste= ring inclusivity in the IETF.

Milestones:

= July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendatio= ns 

> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner <= sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi!,
&g= t; 
> Here is some pr= oposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG.
> 
> Cheers,
>= spt
> 
> ----------
> 
&= gt; Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM)
> ----
> 
> The mission= of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant= technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and mana= ge the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC pub= lication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consi= stent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effect= ive when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessi= ble to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures.
> 
> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working gr= oup, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizat= ions, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (suc= h as =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80= =9D) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have e= ffects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about= this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would be= nefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclu= sive terminology in IETF documents. 
> 
> = The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informationa= l RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work= produced by the IETF. 
= > 
> Milestones:
> 
> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informatio= nal terminology recommendations

-- 
Gendispatch mailing list
=

--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com


--7455a9b6574e4fdeba363823586c06de-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 21:28:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815FB3A2660 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:28:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f2su8rzmmlQK for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D15503A265E for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:28:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22EAB28012C; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:28:12 +0000 (UTC) To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <91a88d0f-7ec3-0b14-558a-cb761cff33bc@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:51:39 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:28:38 -0000 On 23/2/21 00:30, Keith Moore wrote: > On 2/22/21 7:29 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > >> Coming up with a definition of what we mean by diversity or >> inclusiveness is not something that requires a lot of time -- it >> simply requires that we acknowledge what we have in mind, and that we >> accept that the topic has multiple axes. > > I guess I would also say that it's not necessary to argue about or reach > consensus on a definition of "inclusiveness" or "diversity", in order to > recognize the various kinds of barriers that deter participation in > IETF, and to discuss potential ways of addressing some of those > barriers. Indeed. For the most part, I just didn't want the work on one very specific issue to be portrayed as work on the larger picture. > Let's not get hung up on the meanings of words; let's > instead discuss the actual issues. Agreed. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Feb 23 00:18:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2717F3A284D for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:18:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dI0Pzg0tQDiu for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B0043A284F for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id u4so16576489lja.3 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:18:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=k1WKrGrJbb+vHM9fdfAJo+BsU0HXIm9lBsxH/bibns0=; b=FCl6M8lqOFara+LP1iVNj/LPVnJCdXC8nkmh/1yq3iyVBVIdnU9Dw+mG769xtRGgsW qEBNu9erNyvTrNRmUdpJaKKbTI8zK388DA/Yod8NHRVrM5n0K8nuHmQ0wjunsC//rQqS IGmOida9uJ5pDADVKlEAl1BLNtIzMqJpteepT1T6bYiDeaqiJSvkGO1gqvH0u9YMeL+l hjKVxMz7mgVWUJMECQTypbDmGk5sZDMf02LSwOU8PR8ZVxMsEhS8pIFJzsuyoBrAMPuV kbgxB5IZuaJU342rXCyE+1L/klWTQFJ2EXcHT4sMpIhrfJyv0togYDKRgB8joVZjdPHD zwag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=k1WKrGrJbb+vHM9fdfAJo+BsU0HXIm9lBsxH/bibns0=; b=sfDP9gepVj2p8KcWONanaytwswzfcONeIPWJQE8x0Tt+prHrE8RRZsurLCb8tHAEUM ggCwSAgcW1SpskUXv/wMYtbLY1lZ5bVc1pOzVAAtZP7cXkoM1rWJjJHDqCU8GvGAq5Qi rNQoL/8j11XXPH1e0JS1J6WV0ij2C6M+NjRYf/tLo2blQwY6bZ85WTPZRUUNIhgW62hH Usa0ketU31375bPA4OsG8JAdAQpwz6tWuLxnt8pgnSC+9fLR1xzRnn4AePSQA5EfjUOR Az4qT9eVkHpTZjAxHFmc0pGlr2ojRDpFvP/4/WllyecbRHQhXwZc7lx+gEK66hNC2ZcA 5nig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531nK/gGrlAsqTST7Mq8iOjhD7Pbjm1tcZsa+13jrhWnFwgtT+gA lB1+HQPtda60ZfpXtu3lRoViZQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1+xfjjcPN0poJ0Qz2R5Soo5k/AUHbmROIq6/MO9QUy+jXrTiTWGjPB9J36M5JAFXXTiug7g== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9a52:: with SMTP id k18mr10592056ljj.413.1614068298234; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.6.3.49] ([37.120.203.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h11sm2443985lfd.243.2021.02.23.00.18.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:18:17 -0800 (PST) From: Dominique Lazanski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7565D659-47AB-4F2E-AFEB-B22466A26156" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:18:16 +0100 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> To: Bron Gondwana , ietf@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> Message-Id: <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:18:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7565D659-47AB-4F2E-AFEB-B22466A26156 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I would support Bron=E2=80=99s experience and also say that there are = several other barriers to entry that I=E2=80=99ve found. One is = different approaches to topics than the mainstream IETF approach held by = most IETF attendees. I am thinking about privacy/encryption, for = example. But the other big barrier to entry is the draft upload tools. = For a new person attending for the first time the tools are a relic of = 1990 of thereabouts and can be confusing and difficult. In any case, I shall join the gendispatch group to discuss further! Dominique > On 23 Feb 2021, at 05:19, Bron Gondwana = wrote: >=20 > Thanks Fernando, >=20 > I would add to this document something about inertia, backwards = compatibility and existing dysfunction. >=20 > Many ideas are shut down because they aren't in the right place, or = don't fit comfortably into the existing corpus of IETF documents. >=20 > When we brought JMAP to the IETF it was after a long process of = socialisation, and still there was significant work in the first couple = of meetings just to convince people that "this is worth doing, the = existing work the IETF has done in this neighborhood is not sufficient". >=20 > JMAP also had an authentication scheme in it originally. It was a = good authentication scheme, but applications don't do authentication = schemes, that's the bailiwick of OAUTH, where ideas go to die (in my = experience, that working group has been dysfunctional for my entire time = at IETF - exhibit 'A' being the "Milestones" section of the about page, = which lists 6 items all due in 2017) >=20 > So we just removed all mention of authentication method and handwaved = "the connection will be authenticated", because we wanted to publish = something during the decade with years starting '201'. >=20 > ... all that to say. One of the biggest barriers to entry in the IETF = is stumbling across an area in which no work is able to progress due to = entrenched issues within that area. >=20 > And I'm not arguing for "no barriers to entry", because there needs to = be a sanity check that we're actually producing high quality = specifications, and that our specifications are compatible with each = other so the entirety of the IETF's work product is a coherent whole. = But it's hard to get started if you don't already have the connections = to have your work sponsored by somebody who already knows their way = around the IETF's idiosyncrasies. I'm doing some of that sponsoring = myself now for the people from tc39 who are trying to get the IETF to = look at defining an extended datetime format. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Bron. >=20 > On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, at 11:07, Fernando Gont wrote: >> Folks, >>=20 >> We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in=20= >> the IETF". >>=20 >> The I-D is available at:=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt = >>=20 >> We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg=20 >> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/ = ). But given the=20 >> breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it >> where necessary/applicable/desired. >>=20 >> As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the=20 >> surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good=20= >> start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Regards, >> --=20 >> Fernando Gont >> SI6 Networks >> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com >> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > -- > Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd > brong@fastmailteam.com --Apple-Mail=_7565D659-47AB-4F2E-AFEB-B22466A26156 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = would support Bron=E2=80=99s experience and also say that there are = several other barriers to entry that I=E2=80=99ve found. One is = different approaches to topics than the mainstream IETF approach held by = most IETF attendees. I am thinking about privacy/encryption, for = example. But the other big barrier to entry is the draft upload tools. = For a new person attending for the first time the tools are a relic of = 1990 of thereabouts and can be confusing and difficult.
In any case, I shall join the gendispatch = group to discuss further!

Dominique


On 23 Feb 2021, at 05:19, Bron = Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote:

Thanks Fernando,

I would add to this document = something about inertia, backwards compatibility and existing = dysfunction.

Many ideas are = shut down because they aren't in the right place, or don't fit = comfortably into the existing corpus of IETF documents.

When we brought JMAP to the IETF = it was after a long process of socialisation, and still there was = significant work in the first couple of meetings just to convince people = that "this is worth doing, the existing work the IETF has done in this = neighborhood is not sufficient".

JMAP also had an authentication scheme in it = originally.  It was a good authentication scheme, but applications = don't do authentication schemes, that's the bailiwick of OAUTH, where = ideas go to die (in my experience, that working group has been = dysfunctional for my entire time at IETF - exhibit 'A' being the = "Milestones" section of the about page, which lists 6 items all due in = 2017)

So we just removed all mention of = authentication method and handwaved "the connection will be = authenticated", because we wanted to publish something during the decade = with years starting '201'.

... all that to say.  One of the biggest = barriers to entry in the IETF is stumbling across an area in which no = work is able to progress due to entrenched issues within that area.

And I'm = not arguing for "no barriers to entry", because there needs to be a = sanity check that we're actually producing high quality specifications, = and that our specifications are compatible with each other so the = entirety of the IETF's work product is a coherent whole.  But it's = hard to get started if you don't already have the connections to have = your work sponsored by somebody who already knows their way around the = IETF's idiosyncrasies.  I'm doing some of that sponsoring myself = now for the people from tc39 who are trying to get the IETF to look at = defining an extended datetime format.

Cheers,

Bron.

On = Tue, Feb 23, 2021, at 11:07, Fernando Gont wrote:
Folks,

We have submitted a new I-D, = entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in 
the IETF".

The I-D = is available at: 
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-0= 0.txt

We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch = wg 
breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to = discuss it
where necessary/applicable/desired.

As explicitly noted in our I-D, = we're probably only scratching the 
surface here -- but we believe = that our document is probably a good 
start to discuss many aspects = of diversity that deserve discussion.

Thanks!

Regards,
-- 
Fernando = Gont
SI6= Networks
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 = 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492






--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com
=
= --Apple-Mail=_7565D659-47AB-4F2E-AFEB-B22466A26156-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 00:41:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81603A28EC; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:41:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kHk3yc4lJ1Ah; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C89873A28A2; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:41:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4897:2501:35bb:1428]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AD4F2280627; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:41:29 +0000 (UTC) To: Dominique Lazanski , Bron Gondwana , ietf@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:40:23 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:41:47 -0000 Hello, Dominique, On 23/2/21 05:18, Dominique Lazanski wrote: > I would support Bron’s experience and also say that there are several > other barriers to entry that I’ve found. One is different approaches to > topics than the mainstream IETF approach held by most IETF attendees. I > am thinking about privacy/encryption, for example. Could you elaborate a bit more on this one? e.g., some example (so that we can understand better what you mean)... and if you can think of anything that might be done to improve things in this respect, that would also be nice. > But the other big > barrier to entry is the draft upload tools. For a new person attending > for the first time the tools are a relic of 1990 of thereabouts and can > be confusing and difficult. FWIW, we have already started to work on a revision of the draft (working copy at: https://github.com/fgont/diversity/blob/main/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-01.txt), and this is what we currently have in the Section 8.2 of the upcoming rev: ---- cut here ---- 8.2. Difficulty in Authoring and Submitting Internet-Drafts There are so many formatting rules that an Internet-Draft (and eventually an RFC) needs to comply to, that in practice the only reasonable way create and submit an Internet-Draft is via the set of tools available at: https://tools.ietf.org/ . Tools such as xml2rfc are of a lot of help to produce documents that comply with the Internet-Draft formatting rules -- but its error messages might result cryptic to the unexperienced user. The number of tools has expanded so much that they probably deserve their own guidelines. And existing guidelines such as [ID-Guidelines] should probably be updated with the assumption that Internet-Drafts will be produced with the set of available tools. This means that e.g. it becomes less important to the Internet- Draft author what formatting rules a document needs to comply to, since the existing tools will guarantee such compliance. On the other hand, an author may benefit from guidelines on how to use the set of available tools. ---- cut here ---- Is there anything you'd suggest adding to it? > In any case, I shall join the gendispatch group to discuss further! Please do, but also feel free to discuss it here if you wish, too. Thanks a lot! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Feb 23 00:50:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B079F3A28B3 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DJFLo7sW46yy for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDA433A0E34 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id q23so2205201lji.8 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lastpresslabel-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=WJHpUoP20Emfsn7RmHLV6CQq9AzQGefhZekvDsEVJKg=; b=IenIPCype7fB+FwKMKvd8HOcUnSCJerkMKw/mpnFq+Ej+spFdUZhIM8UzPS24lwlb+ jEdZlE3S3JZnE0CGO2FxMFbkmmnuyKSVoGIoufQt7b8gUo/P28QX4hBdHbiD2DqVy5mV jLW/mpMFHSnBSV8JvEJUj724HHTluQ1G2duPsx6THx/MLg4kH1QBgKdPIBYn0Y5sx1Em eAjPs2VwkZth7rTYTdUrlyMLUf1UCJ+aJzW9ZCUnKV5zR3dod5cHZdLkFggkXuAnHDmk VqOcHj+FvNdPq07xepE4hZalKB4tue2yLx58FKcEJXnrANKiBCVDV/VT+m456RI13LgS ezhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=WJHpUoP20Emfsn7RmHLV6CQq9AzQGefhZekvDsEVJKg=; b=IPeNfGHE1V6HughPIvLjMR223ujf9RkR+Ebw5rZ7FKg1PJog2SFyZGWXUriP/xyo5F IY1HmejJlT0KJOk3UmHFUPsKOEttiio3141IEYOUXZG4LZpCn0hcfxbFwDAfDAj+mENT J5RlZImEUoIwxYKh6Tjqqpn+CbB8bOroVm6rm5NjC1zOBXJBvI1fj1tS8EZPlI8IK1uw gPxJmmo390d7yLnic1uXnQdEEtqoaR7DMYPnkSfwkQmxKOVo1vkBr7bBTDetvOZIykoa FCF6mBzN3dKuY5adbXrJq7AAjwRd9XDj6QmeeZLBUpKT9kc/JWOYEho3qawBNpgt4BfZ aAgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533PJUiyYVSfNWhMiLVQqeNXnFDEyglUkAZYn7SCaR7ZhWOBhYdy xRas9lw/Oim5d6SRKDwLB2/uxg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxFMrkQ6t5Ktsg8Gp7DzxC8pbQBHW58ukNgd83Gnz++ImayRQZh6FiWXfTYCCgxHlqJ0BD5Hg== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:90cf:: with SMTP id o15mr5449400ljg.218.1614070207780; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.6.3.49] ([37.120.203.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i8sm1880561lfe.158.2021.02.23.00.50.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:50:07 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Dominique Lazanski In-Reply-To: <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:50:06 +0100 Cc: Bron Gondwana , ietf@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <79DF709C-61B9-4828-852C-76F8DFB0BAB5@lastpresslabel.com> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:50:12 -0000 > On 23 Feb 2021, at 09:40, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 > Hello, Dominique, >=20 > On 23/2/21 05:18, Dominique Lazanski wrote: >> I would support Bron=E2=80=99s experience and also say that there are = several other barriers to entry that I=E2=80=99ve found. One is = different approaches to topics than the mainstream IETF approach held by = most IETF attendees. I am thinking about privacy/encryption, for = example. >=20 > Could you elaborate a bit more on this one? e.g., some example (so = that we can understand better what you mean)... and if you can think of = anything that might be done to improve things in this respect, that = would also be nice. >=20 Sure! This is purely my experience, but I have found it challenging (and = hostile) to engage in controversial topics which don=E2=80=99t have = consensus. I think encryption is the most obvious one and consolidation = another. I don=E2=80=99t want to dwell on the issues, but would rather = suggest solutions. I think it would be great to organise open sessions = of an hour just on these topics focused specifically on having difficult = and challenging conversations only about one topic. Obviously we have = open IAB, plenary and etc, but a focused, short meeting would be one = idea. >=20 >> But the other big barrier to entry is the draft upload tools. For a = new person attending for the first time the tools are a relic of 1990 of = thereabouts and can be confusing and difficult. >=20 > FWIW, we have already started to work on a revision of the draft = (working copy at: = https://github.com/fgont/diversity/blob/main/draft-gont-diversity-analysis= -01.txt), and this is what we currently have in the Section 8.2 of the = upcoming rev: >=20 > ---- cut here ---- > 8.2. Difficulty in Authoring and Submitting Internet-Drafts >=20 > There are so many formatting rules that an Internet-Draft (and > eventually an RFC) needs to comply to, that in practice the only > reasonable way create and submit an Internet-Draft is via the set of > tools available at: https://tools.ietf.org/ . Tools such as xml2rfc > are of a lot of help to produce documents that comply with the > Internet-Draft formatting rules -- but its error messages might > result cryptic to the unexperienced user. >=20 > The number of tools has expanded so much that they probably deserve > their own guidelines. And existing guidelines such as > [ID-Guidelines] should probably be updated with the assumption that > Internet-Drafts will be produced with the set of available tools. >=20 > This means that e.g. it becomes less important to the Internet- > Draft author what formatting rules a document needs to comply to, > since the existing tools will guarantee such compliance. On the > other hand, an author may benefit from guidelines on how to use > the set of available tools. > ---- cut here ---- >=20 > Is there anything you'd suggest adding to it? This is great news! I will definitely go to git and add a few things. >=20 >=20 >> In any case, I shall join the gendispatch group to discuss further! >=20 > Please do, but also feel free to discuss it here if you wish, too. >=20 > Thanks a lot! >=20 > Regards, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >=20 Dominique=20= From nobody Tue Feb 23 01:51:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21463A296C; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 01:51:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.099 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RAND_MKTG_HEADER=2.999, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0802MB2334 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:02:12 -0000 --_000_AM0PR08MB37162B554F6E9E2F8A7A0F54FA809AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RG9taW5pcXVlLCBjb3VsZCB5b3UgZXhwYW5kIG9uIHlvdXIgcHJpdmFjeS9lbmNyeXB0aW9uIGV4 cGVyaWVuY2UgYSBsaXR0bGUgYml0Pw0KDQpDaWFvDQpIYW5uZXMNCg0KRnJvbTogaWV0ZiA8aWV0 Zi1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPiBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgRG9taW5pcXVlIExhemFuc2tpDQpTZW50 OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBGZWJydWFyeSAyMywgMjAyMSA5OjE4IEFNDQpUbzogQnJvbiBHb25kd2FuYSA8 YnJvbmdAZmFzdG1haWx0ZWFtLmNvbT47IGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGdlbmRpc3BhdGNoQGlldGYu 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localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E871EBE24; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:37:12 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ftHWQzZceuiC; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:37:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.242] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3436FBE1C; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:37:11 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1614087431; bh=yK/SJeaQbejHpoFDYHwVSU4MtRsaKqs6PGgE8Yd2snU=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EaeznEgoV5xMPHI91qM16X4BDr99Le39mGPOsGYUj7KCu0Aj68wt5nnxuXl+kESMd SENgO4/9IW/Fedln++vchnW+lAL0iMothAP8rnbhfMAuuVIZ2GOa7P0AfkeY0H8UaS HVpe91lL4D+BpHLiRV+CNdo6Qcs9zevASebmmq+o= To: Dominique Lazanski , Bron Gondwana , ietf@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <5d660988-09ef-66c0-0d30-08a119e663ed@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:37:10 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GKeh0DyWoXEr8tpichLsYpjtFNyiJQBdx" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:37:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --GKeh0DyWoXEr8tpichLsYpjtFNyiJQBdx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AGqqk5V4cdTKKrknhu5ybPvR6UifDH1p6"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Dominique Lazanski , Bron Gondwana , ietf@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <5d660988-09ef-66c0-0d30-08a119e663ed@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> In-Reply-To: <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> --AGqqk5V4cdTKKrknhu5ybPvR6UifDH1p6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D56F8A3AEE025E2234460381" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D56F8A3AEE025E2234460381 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 23/02/2021 08:18, Dominique Lazanski wrote: > One is different approaches to topics than the mainstream IETF > approach held by most IETF attendees.=20 > I am thinking about privacy/encryption... That topic differs from others in this discussion in that the IETF has repeatedly debated it in lots of detail, and with many different opinions being factored in, and over decades, and has established a set of rough consensus positions after significant informed debate on a topic where IETF participants are pretty well qualified to claim expertise. Other aspects of this discussion relate to things where we've not really noticed that we even have a position, e.g. the use of terms that were considered ok in the past, but aren't today, or where we're not at all expert, e.g. handling our own biases. I think our approach to handling claims that we'd be better to change should validly differ in the above two cases - it is *much* harder to bring really new information in the former case than in the latter for example. 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmA1BQYFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qg UQ//Qz0pvfP9w6+NBI7v5ylRAZYOjSW92AdEFcxzgB90AsTKHEM6EaPaL1VR8rmgBGsLhCR0WqYF aSDEMaai4G/ycx73BQyeoWiKiStyvdvd5jDTs+PYUTE/JjA+iwh01nb1I7RI5m34EScsf0BdJGKl eEqtdjEEBb2/FUZUZfy2rzUjU/uR0yMfjuIVfs/lHqHOfrgbdIhcIpfudsnKVOhnIMsaWir5OEBS KZ0c9fse4tNI1y/B/RUx5WCtGsMKtGU+HglgyPUKZmlJYrzk5x94Otd6ggtuVR7pMYWi18O3kg7l StyayYTJzvDk+GOFjQrZMuMwveTSAJztVwqM4PQzBYw0Bb4ZwnT4p1Jb/U3Ksf6M03AJiMmhvXZL ZhlbYP1XSHEFlw99XpMfoi0bRWKXyAzkwon1GS3QB5veRh27NzRL2SVcmmr+ug3Jg90FVJRU70K8 ulib7w/qrfBmyB4zwrhxabXDmSXaJ3RdOzdb8DDoMtc31Ktd1CeXV6DFofAr/3XEhwVn+xO+yxxa /h3nxWona7KLEwnmnePDpFK9GJBvHwg8Cg7b1CJqIMOCcOlsq8Yr9mA5F1fP6ipJPgLtedSRcOA0 OHOV/vQXW8R7c3zR+Uy2AMRKuoRRxkK+jR+SUl9BqkkjvuGWR2+qBM2w82nN9/ut/XFfYceYbbi8 w3k= =p4kt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GKeh0DyWoXEr8tpichLsYpjtFNyiJQBdx-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 05:44:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com 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fjughrpefhtgfgggfukfffvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhishhsrgcu vehoohhpvghruceorghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnheptedvueetvdeukedukeevgfdtveehheelkeehhfdvvedvtdevueeivdffudffvdeu necuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepudejfedrfeekrdduudejrdekhe enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrlhhi shhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhn X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro2.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.85]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9A71E24005B; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:44:13 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:44:12 -0500 Cc: Lars Eggert To: IETF , GENDISPATCH List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Call for volunteers: GENDISPATCH co-chair X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:44:18 -0000 Hi all, I'm looking for volunteers to co-chair the GENDISPATCH working group = . Francesca = Palombini and Pete Resnick have been co-chairing the group since it was = formed in September 2019. Francesca will be stepping down as she is = joining the IESG as ART area director. Pete will be continuing as = co-chair.=20 If you=E2=80=99d like to volunteer, please send email to Lars Eggert = and myself explaining your interest, preferably by = Thursday, March 4, 2021. We=E2=80=99re looking to have a diverse = co-chair pair lead the group. Thanks, Alissa= From nobody Tue Feb 23 05:45:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3441E3A2C06 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:45:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h564hfX7xd8L for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 938713A2BCA for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOZ07RDPI70Y5@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:45:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOZ00H3QI3WEE@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:43:08 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:44:58 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210219] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:45:13 -0000   Hi Fernando, On 2/22/21 4:29 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > Hello, Sean, > > On 22/2/21 12:59, Sean Turner wrote: > [...] >> >> (3) recommendation to replace “Effective” with “Inclusive" in the WG >> name. I didn't see much support and some people want to spend time >> defining inclusive first. > > As someone that has asked a few times what people mean when they talk > about diversity and inclusiveness, let me just say that I don't and > didn't "want to spend time in defining 'inclusive' first". > > I was simply concerned about this effort pretending to do something > that it wouldn't necessarily do. > > I believe we are all in agreement that terms that can come across as > derogatory should be avoided (if at all employed). However, avoiding > derogatory terms does not imply being more inclusive. > > > Coming up with a definition of what we mean by diversity or > inclusiveness is not something that requires a lot of time -- it > simply requires that we acknowledge what we have in mind, and that we > accept that the topic has multiple axes.   This is extremely important and something I think the group needs to arrive at some consensus over. There seems to be a desire to have the group focus (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which to discuss diversity and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very divisive and destructive. If we want to address diversity at the IETF and foster inclusiveness then we need to look at the issue on multiple axes. There might be something we could do that would increase diversity and inclusiveness if we avoid wrapping ourselves around one particular divisive axle.   regards,   Dan. [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/VknAFJsjSCtKNiHHUFKpX_kj608/ > FWIW, we spent less than 10 minutes in coming with this text as part > of draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00: > > ---- cut here ---- > 3.  Terminology > >    Throughout this document, whenever we refer to "diversity" or >    "inclusiveness" we imply including or involving people of: > >    o  a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds > >    o  different genders > >    o  different sexual orientations > >    o  different countries and regions > >    o  different types of organizations (companies, non-profits, etc.) > >    The above list is non-exhaustive, but should make it evident that >    "diversity" has multiple axes, and this document does not limit its >    discussion of diversity to any particular sub-set of them. > ---- cut here ---- > > i.e., diversity encompasses more than one or two axes. So some of us > simply wanted that to be acknowledged if any claims on "diversity" > were going to be made, or to simply acknowledge that this effort was > about tackling derogatory language (as important as that may be). > > Thanks, -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Tue Feb 23 06:21:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9672F3A2BC8; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:21:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a--2RCDJXS81; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDFD93A2BC6; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOZ07REEJVPY5@wwwlocal.goatley.com>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:21:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOZ00GMKJSLVN@trixy.bergandi.net>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:19:33 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:21:23 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Hannes Tschofenig , Fernando Gont , "'ietf@ietf.org'" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210219] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:21:28 -0000   Hi Hannes, On 2/23/21 1:51 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number of participants who are not interested to write any code*.   That's a great point! One of the attractions (to me, at least) of the IETF was that it wasn't some guy with some slides and a story. It was someone with an idea, a reference implementation of the idea, and results of (partially) deploying the code and seeing what it did. That was very compelling. We learned things from the running code that actually helped improve the specification. We were doing engineering!   When I think back on it, such a demand to have running code must've been quite a barrier to inclusiveness (which might've had an impact on some axes of diversity) for some. But isn't that a good thing? Doesn't a certain amount of exclusivity, or demand for some standard for participation, result in better product? I think it does. We should be engineering the Internet. I hope we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater when we get so focused on diversity and inclusion.   Yes, there has been less and less a demand on running code (sadface emoji) and I share your worry. Not only are some participants not interested in writing any code, we are also coming up with work that does not require any code at all. Look at the WG that people want to charter here! There is no demand for any code whatsoever. And there is even a reluctance to state a linkage between proposal and desired result, the basis of our engineering-- "how we get there with this idea" is not to be discussed. This is all very worrying.   regards,   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Tue Feb 23 07:07:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515283A2C3D for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:07:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T9l68-njTxxF for ; 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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:07:28 +0100 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:07:28 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Fernando Gont , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore Message-ID: <1743187634.63488.1614092848261@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:07:34 -0000 > Il 23/02/2021 01:07 Fernando Gont ha scritto: > > > Folks, > > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in > the IETF". Thanks for starting this. I also wanted to write something, but could not find the time. I wanted to work on a description of factors and dimensions that could make people feel out of place in an organization, both in professional and social terms, or make it harder to participate. I think that the right approach is first to document all the potential issues, and then to discuss whether each of them can and should be addressed (in some cases, there might even be groups that you do not want to include, but that's a separate discussion from documenting that they exist). I only got as far as writing down a bullet list of points, so I'm sharing it - you covered part of it already, not everything. I'll be happy to contribute text if I have time, but in the meantime, here it is: open prejudice - harassing behaviour towards specific groups - harassing behaviour in interpersonal terms (rudeness etc) style of participation - tone and attitude of conversations (aggressiveness, lack of willingness to listen and compromise, etc) - need to "speak up" (often in public at a microphone) to get heard - disagreement can only be expressed by blocking consensus - availability of time to follow and show up at the right moment direct lack of diversity - gender, ethnicity, geography, age, social and professional background, type of employer - lack of "people like me", difficulty in "belonging" during meetings - diversity in values and views of the world language - languages (not) spoken, no translations - general american english jargon - technical jargon - offputting words fees - general vs per group/per number of events - cost of travel to physical meetings - cost of instruments for virtual meetings timezones, locations club for regulars - learning curve on how to behave - access to documents and archives - lack of transparency on who people are, "insider only" conversations referring to old events not documented - facilitations only for old timers / privileges by "how much you have contributed" industry/stakeholder dominance - considering viewpoints from specific industry sectors more/less important than others - considering viewpoints from specific stakeholder groups more/less important than others - big companies vs SMEs vs community projects - proprietary/patent-oriented vs open source - implementation-first vs specification-first -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Feb 23 07:12:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CABA3A281C for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:12:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sROBlkN47oVO for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7DC43A0A02 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.33) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint7 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:12:48 -0000 PiAgVGhlcmUgc2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgYSBkZXNpcmUgdG8gaGF2ZSB0aGUgZ3JvdXAgZm9jdXMNCiAg ICAoZmlyc3QvcHJpbWFyaWx5Pykgb24gcmFjZSBhcyB0aGUgc2luZ2xlIGF4aXMgaW4gd2hpY2gg dG8gZGlzY3VzcyBkaXZlcnNpdHkNCiAgICBhbmQgaW5jbHVzaXZlbmVzcywgZS5nLiBbMV0tLSBh bmQgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSB2ZXJ5IGRpdmlzaXZlIGFuZCANCiAgICBkZXN0cnVjdGl2ZS4NCg0K DQpXaHkgZG8geW91IHRoaW5rIGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGRlc3RydWN0aXZlLCBhcyBvcHBvc2VkIHRv IGEgZmlyc3Qgc3RlcCBiZWNhdXNlIHNvbWUgdGhpbmsgaXQgaXMgZWFzaWVyIHRvIGhhbmRsZT8N Cg0KLS0NCiJZb3UgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSB0byB0dXJuIHRoaXMgaW50byBzb21ldGhpbmcuIEl0IGRv ZXNuJ3QgaGF2ZSB0byB1cHNldCB5b3UuIiBNYXJjdXMgQXVyZWxpdXMNCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Feb 23 07:18:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A37E3A2C4A for ; 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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:18:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1743187634.63488.1614092848261@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1743187634.63488.1614092848261@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Kyle Rose Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:18:13 -0500 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Fernando Gont , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000006ef2605bc026edc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:18:28 -0000 --00000000000006ef2605bc026edc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Good list. I think one thing to keep in mind is that not all of these have solutions, and in some cases are zero-sum. IMO, we should be careful to limit the scope to identifying the obstacles to inclusion, and leave solutions to later steps. direct lack of diversity > - gender, ethnicity, geography, age, social and professional background, > type of employer > - lack of "people like me", difficulty in "belonging" during meetings > - diversity in values and views of the world > One big problem in this category that should be called out explicitly is underrepresentation from areas of the world with networks that look entirely unlike what we have in the West. Africa, in particular, has very little wired coverage. > - cost of travel to physical meetings > This is a big one. I wouldn't put it under "fees", but rather "cost of involvement". If time were the only factor, remote participation would be doable; but the hallway conversations at thrice-yearly meetings have no effective substitute. (This IMO is an argument in favor of reducing in-person meetings to 1x/year, and to help subsidize the cost of travel and lodging for folks whose needs are underrepresented in the IETF... but now I'm getting into potential solutions.) Kyle --00000000000006ef2605bc026edc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good list. I think one thing to keep in mind is that not all = of these have solutions, and in some cases are zero-sum. IMO, we should be = careful to limit the scope to identifying the obstacles to inclusion, and l= eave solutions to later steps.

direct lack of diversity
- gender, ethnicity, geography, age, social and professional background, ty= pe of employer
- lack of "people like me", difficulty in "belonging" d= uring meetings
- diversity in values and views of the world

One big problem in= this category that should be called out explicitly is underrepresentation = from areas of the world with networks that look entirely unlike what we hav= e in the West. Africa, in particular, has very little wired coverage.
- cost of travel to physical meetings

<= div style=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">This is a big one. I = wouldn't put it under "fees", but rather "cost of involv= ement". If time were the only factor, remote participation would be do= able; but the hallway conversations at thrice-yearly meetings have no effec= tive substitute. (This IMO is an argument in favor of reducing in-person me= etings to 1x/year, and to help subsidize the cost of travel and lodging for= folks whose needs are underrepresented in the IETF... but now I'm gett= ing into potential solutions.)

Kyle

--00000000000006ef2605bc026edc-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 07:48:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7A33A2C92; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:48:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2-ACm2uPYP5; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:48:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C81233A2951; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:8c90:e3df:68bf:9f07] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:8c90:e3df:68bf:9f07]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 28FDB28014B; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:48:12 +0000 (UTC) To: Hannes Tschofenig , "'ietf@ietf.org'" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3eb70c22-cf12-0bd5-19d7-6ec84f8cfe4a@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:20:59 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:48:23 -0000 On 23/2/21 06:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that > increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing > number of participants who are not interested to write any code*. It could be the case that people are not interested, or that they don't have the time, or that they are not familiar with an open source project to contribute code. It could be any of them, and it's probably difficult to tell. In some cases, whether a WG gives value to an implementation might encourage or discourage work on an implementation. And then there are other things, such as: * Each open source project has it's own culture. * Some are very welcoming. Others not so much. * Some will help for you to implement things, others (usually smaller) projects might try or want to implement stuff themselves. And, as with other things, whether somebody has support from his/her employer will also have an effect -- e.g., if you have a pay job and do IETF stuff independently, then you probably won't have enough time to work on a draft and participating in the discussions, let alone implementing it. Then there are other things. e.g., I once did multiple implementations fo a document I had co-authored, and provided pointers to the implementations in an appendix. One IETF participant took the time to ask each project to back out the commits "because the document had not yet become an RFC". > I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when > talking about the new leadership election cycles. Could you elaborate a bit more on this one? And what you'd like to see? > Participating in some working groups I more and more get the > impression to sit in a document writing class rather than in an > Internet engineering organization. One possible explanation is that energy is a finite resource: the more bureaucracy and politics involved, the lesser the time to commit to other things. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Feb 23 08:29:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933E13A0942 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:29:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0GbheEdEWTmk for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA0303A0930 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:28:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id f137so3030066wmf.3 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:28:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=TJ6iDeT2DNJp0bZBxI2LdXaoW5NWSfL/KZKK1Rbmd8U=; b=fRNykAd3IM/qT+z4925tK/pHhjCS3998J+Cmrqy1kVjNtiK2ePSNerAVJBeoRTW0jW 8T6WARD6Pwgm0nkH2ncO9Gp1dBorNxmySfRKp/ar+/hlJgjhGlvL5CXsNMpbAD4ilh6V 9C8r81Epcm6+iaI3iTPct2bijx4N+d1yllehvBTXniqZyrAkCgrDzRA/kXXNYTcKz2ue wqDRebkkoId5v6J0h4A5fXejTb3tpZIJ8FWb3k+BXHSvMsjxbpl+NmSpAWiY9srezAhH xXhoax0CTcYOpOo+QjnfDcWj1TQbb/gdEfjbiO4mSK0PxzF/5oAXWobtlDR0s7Yl8ccu 5JOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=TJ6iDeT2DNJp0bZBxI2LdXaoW5NWSfL/KZKK1Rbmd8U=; b=llJu+ozo1PFK9idXQ7tHz+aJ8ikxvO5RNNgbjiDyqlii5ar2xZWn1pzcXTZOFwHaQN ziCZ+/iuExNS3vUH2zI9KrF34FdjkQoYWNctGBf9LqN2iocsXGUN1uZ5c9+jGwf8MDgQ HEbHWX80TDtsEXn8FNeGhSHTNEoSF+dnueiJBwVek66YSoJ+Npa4xxgFTCbN1u/Tw10V zxC4e6cAQix7SlpfdYUNdjR+qDfCyrdsvT5oTrr/VMODlxtHSfQJlb/Qu0FA2qR56NEZ +MDyxYUcieVb72gnG+vHomjd3wd4CPWmRoKJdPEHrmtQBg/PlpfHdvZfjhROL89pdzDA 2LTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533+2PhJWf3Ca6ekBrYayAHZ/tvNe6DEbB5UwLH86rHBBZGv32OT u0wQa1pKpWeccPiM3zv8gfMpqwwHZgo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyVK8DGMcgqtpiKSQO+wxK8DykRFiX7V2+l5/DGxbuvTAOMG6iMVW/UE306Xpr/OlQmstfaLw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:204a:: with SMTP id p10mr12068612wmg.178.1614097737191; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g1sm32549246wrq.30.2021.02.23.08.28.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:28:56 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_37BF170A-B54F-412F-BF31-46B3C631334E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:28:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , GENDISPATCH List To: Sean Turner References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:29:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_37BF170A-B54F-412F-BF31-46B3C631334E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I am fine with this text and support the creation of the w.g. Bob > On Feb 22, 2021, at 7:59 AM, Sean Turner wrote: >=20 > Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the = penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph = is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: >=20 > (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and = "blacklist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this = suggestion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I = thought, leaving them in gives context for external readers. >=20 > (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see = much support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. >=20 > (3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9CInclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some = people want to spend time defining inclusive first. >=20 > Cheers, > spt >=20 > -------- >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general = principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will = also point out potentially problematic terms and potential alternatives, = or link to an updateable resource containing such information. >=20 > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single = deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering = inclusivity in the IETF. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations >=20 >> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >>=20 >> Hi!, >>=20 >> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related = WG. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> spt >>=20 >> ---------- >>=20 >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >>=20 >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people = design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The = ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents = that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and = Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is = clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and cultures. >>=20 >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, = there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, = and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as = =E2=80=9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) = in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have = effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants = about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community = would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective = and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. >>=20 >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work produced by the IETF. >>=20 >> Milestones: >>=20 >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations >=20 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_37BF170A-B54F-412F-BF31-46B3C631334E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmA1LUUACgkQrut0EXfn u6hV9ggAjKDQdQzTcS+hsREuui1G19eMqeUwk/FAMtooJxeDr+Dbd2QD+0HtLk4l w7NH3hjvEnr1J8g8kpPWA9v6vvv63WUdTt71Rev+LdFU9GByyADtOi7xncVOdFm0 utQexfxSgmIaeAe22JN4HO4tWxsqF71XrqTS9Bm6/elu5DMGmQpik7xozOT1eUXx PN75vvk9AuQyfiZuJOvINqh/d/7rGwizV2T+WnTQftos89XtTD0hOlwMJdB035YF D2+LvhOL95OqQ5KZ1Ij8r4LFWx3rg/DwYmX8zciCe7BmPNje4SKrLkgh+k0f63g+ 0zZUNASIo/8qd6Xc/WXsq+VGrQmnWw== =Gyem -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_37BF170A-B54F-412F-BF31-46B3C631334E-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 09:00:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE043A0A3B for ; 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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:00:31 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> From: Juliana Guerra Message-ID: <2b9ed952-a255-72a2-6a83-46a8eed46f96@derechosdigitales.org> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:00:30 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:00:36 -0000 Hi Fernando, thanks for this important document. Some comments: - This sentence "Lack of diversity in IETF groups and leadership roles has a direct effect on IETF participation, as a result of" is confusing, and is only followed by a description in detail of "lack of diversity." - For language inclusiveness, I recommend to replace "his" with "their" or "his or her" in cases such as "WG chair leaves his role" - With regard to Section 11.2, I think it's necessary to say something more about the "bit of an art to using [email] efectively". Maybe describing some specific IETF lists dynamics. - In section 11.3 Comfort Zone, I missed at least a comment about the difficulties and necessary compromises to deal with disagreement and difference. I think it would be useful to mention RFC 7154 and RFC 7776, and consider the list Vittorio B shared before. And two comments following the conversation here: - I agree that it would be better for the draft to focus on identifying obstacles to inclusion. - I think the "mostly running code" issue is out of scope in this draft. Regards! Juliana G On 22/02/21 19:07, Fernando Gont wrote: > Folks, > > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in > the IETF". > > The I-D is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt > > We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the > breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it > where necessary/applicable/desired. > > As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the > surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good > start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. > > Thanks! > > Regards, From nobody Tue Feb 23 09:01:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687743A09EA for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:01:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dYZMc8yd1_qJ for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CA8B3A0A2E for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QOZ07RHGRAJY5@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:01:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QOZ00H9OR7EDI@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:59:39 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:01:29 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210219] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:01:33 -0000 On 2/23/21 7:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> There seems to be a desire to have the group focus > (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which to discuss diversity > and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very divisive and > destructive. > > > Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first step because some think it is easier to handle?   Because it ends up defining people and their behavior and motives based on immutable features of their birth. It treats people as if they are members of an identity group and not individuals.   You say "as opposed to a first step". Why don't you think a "first step" can be divisive and destructive? History is littered with such things. > -- > "You don't have to turn this into something. It doesn't have to upset you." Marcus Aurelius   Really Rich? My sig bothers you so much you have to ridicule it? And what a tell! "It doesn't have to upset you"... but it does because it has reduced you to this.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Tue Feb 23 09:13:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872CD3A0B72; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q96G1Eu8g4dv; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86C1C3A0B83; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DlQcb5HDmzyY6; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:13:35 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3eb70c22-cf12-0bd5-19d7-6ec84f8cfe4a@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:13:35 +0100 Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" , GENDISPATCH List X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635793215.2317621-b4e26960341fce9e83cd26a2a89ce8fa Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <360CBC85-E91F-46A9-BF73-DB72BD7B7C95@tzi.org> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3eb70c22-cf12-0bd5-19d7-6ec84f8cfe4a@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:13:44 -0000 On 2021-02-23, at 16:20, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 > In some cases, whether a WG gives value to an implementation might = encourage or discourage work on an implementation. Not an unimportant point. If the perception of people bringing work is that acceptance in the IETF = is mostly aleatoric, they=E2=80=99ll think twice before investing in an = implementation before significant advancement. This is particularly true if they already have a proprietary = implementation that will need significant work before it makes all of = IETF=E2=80=99s checkmarks. I=E2=80=99m not saying anything of this is wrong or actually fixable. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Feb 23 09:21:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C283A0BF8 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:21:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LzM883SJ2VqS for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 045873A0BF9 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251675C00D5 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:21:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=RNu0kg fc2a+A3snChaTh5e9lB0DDR2Hhup4As5YqpFE=; b=MX0YpuYl3Z5FDmHGkTwer8 a7n8SS5tFPkHgFfs7m7/+82aaeK+2xoyskqxnZKuUMGp/Thgrri7cu5x9KXTr3xL 1AvmOxmprvgfzQSZ8ESIGOc6Mf4vZ+IzV/BfinHlC6BeeOa9JNP1crkky/D6V35w y/UwC3cMQcsGeIgCOitlDKxnDPQEcFJFvvux5PH+PtfoT78M0DzXRgOKdqrR06cg 2BqnMp16dOTK1kPaaTmyiwNH9l0Igy1eR8Qcmb1jt0RMUBuNoefi8KU5ElCceEmR cf9dAz60OKlcKegekft8Y0oUIv5KcvyXx7kJWy/+nvU5RvRmB7LpEVgRgJbesqXA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrkeehgdellecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtderre dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhr khdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevfeetudeigedtle dvvddtudefjeejffdvfeetjeeiueelgfdtgfegtdffkeetudenucfkphepuddtkedrvddv uddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 720E5108005F for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:21:36 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:21:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4C617C381A53FA08F56EF391" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:21:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4C617C381A53FA08F56EF391 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/23/21 12:01 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: >> Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first step >> because some think it is easier to handle? > >   Because it ends up defining people and their behavior and motives based > on immutable features of their birth. It treats people as if they are > members of an identity group and not individuals. precisely.    And IMO this is a particularly ugly form of prejudice that is especially toxic in a consensus-making body like IETF. Keith --------------4C617C381A53FA08F56EF391 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 2/23/21 12:01 PM, Dan Harkins wrote:

Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first step because some think it is easier to handle?

  Because it ends up defining people and their behavior and motives based
on immutable features of their birth. It treats people as if they are
members of an identity group and not individuals.

precisely.    And IMO this is a particularly ugly form of prejudice that is especially toxic in a consensus-making body like IETF.

Keith


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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:18:02 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:19:53 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <7E22BA1B-7AB9-4127-B2D1-B3CD19A52FEB@akamai.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <2f0fc8e8-ebee-4747-87d1-343df17853a1@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_jOLTZZr6FA8n929VZ/rprw)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> <7E22BA1B-7AB9-4127-B2D1-B3CD19A52FEB@akamai.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210223a] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 19:19:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_jOLTZZr6FA8n929VZ/rprw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT On 2/23/21 10:34 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > *>* Because it ends up defining people and their behavior and > motives based > on immutable features of their birth. It treats people as if they are > members of an identity group and not individuals. > > I don’t look at it that way. I see it as the organization recognizing > that it has had some blind spots and is working to address them, so > that more traditionally-under-represented people participate. (Once > they participate, of course, they should get treated the same as > everyone else. I hope that goes without saying.) >   You don't actually address my statement, you just bring up a vaguery ("blind spots") and state your aspirational goals ("so that more traditionally-under-represented people participate").   Can you, perhaps, connect the dots? You know, explain how focusing on race initially, and to the exclusion of every other aspect of diversity, will end up with more traditionally-under-represented people participating. If not, then what is so compelling to you about considering race first and foremost? > I am also concerned because the attitude quoted above has often been > used as stop-energy to prevent any work from being done. That may not > be the case here and I am heartened to see Keith’s draft. >   Stop-energy, eh? Well consider that work should be prevented if it requires valuing people based on the color of their skin and not the content of their character.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_jOLTZZr6FA8n929VZ/rprw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
On 2/23/21 10:34 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:

>  Because it ends up defining people and their behavior and motives based
on immutable features of their birth. It treats people as if they are
members of an identity group and not individuals.

 

I don’t look at it that way. I see it as the organization recognizing that it has had some blind spots and is working to address them, so that more traditionally-under-represented people participate. (Once they participate, of course, they should get treated the same as everyone else. I hope that goes without saying.)


  You don't actually address my statement, you just bring up a vaguery
("blind spots") and state your aspirational goals ("so that more
traditionally-under-represented people participate").

  Can you, perhaps, connect the dots? You know, explain how focusing on race
initially, and to the exclusion of every other aspect of diversity, will end
up with more traditionally-under-represented people participating. If not,
then what is so compelling to you about considering race first and foremost?

I am also concerned because the attitude quoted above has often been used as stop-energy to prevent any work from being done. That may not be the case here and I am heartened to see Keith’s draft.

 
  Stop-energy, eh? Well consider that work should be prevented if it requires
valuing people based on the color of their skin and not the content of their
character. 

  Dan.
 
-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_jOLTZZr6FA8n929VZ/rprw)-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 12:16:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE16D3A0912 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:16:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DMzTr5bw4fTh; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A2F73A0906; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:16:02 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 09:16:00 +1300 Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:16:05 -0000 Thanks for attempting a comprehensive overview. Some things jumped out at me: 1. At times the draft appears to conflate issues of = 'diversity/inclusion=E2=80=99 with issues of =E2=80=98participation=E2=80=99= in general. In case the difference is not clear - an issue with = participation only becomes an issue with diversity/inclusion when one = specific group of people is disproportionately affected. Specific = examples of where it does that are sections 7 (Processes), 8 = (Difficulties in joining the IETF), 11.2 (Using email effectively) and = 11.3 (Comfort zone), all of which are general issues with participation. = =20 2. At times the draft also appears to conflate issues of = 'diversity/inclusion' with issues of 'conflict of interest', where that = conflict of interest comes from multiple people having the same = employer. For example: - =46rom section 6 Process fairness by having a very small number of interests judging WG consensus, community consensus, and appeals. Leadership selection fairness by having a limited number of interests participating in the NOMCOM and IAB. Jay > On 23/02/2021, at 1:08 PM, Fernando Gont = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFFolks, >=20 > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in = the IETF". >=20 > The I-D is available at: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt >=20 > We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg = (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the = breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it > where necessary/applicable/desired. >=20 > As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the = surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good = start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Regards, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director= From nobody Tue Feb 23 12:44:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA553A099F for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:44:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.668 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.668 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h5zj4J0WZnBt for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBE153A0839 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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(prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 11NKXuXA024755; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:44:21 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.117]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 36txn54uka-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:44:21 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.119) by ustx2ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.120) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:44:20 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.010; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:44:20 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Dan Harkins , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] revised Thread-Index: AQHXCX1nmxtwuF+QWE2w+oZQpaX5qapmJcAA///ErwCAAHI5gIAABZ6A///AhwCAAGCGgP//w8aA Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:44:20 +0000 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I9JSJTr3Zx2m for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C38D33A083E for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 12:55:53 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 21:55:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.greenhost.nl X-Scan-Signature: 22b714be0c51703cd3047a81d17f7b3c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:55:57 -0000 Hiya, Thanks for this. I will have a better look later, but a couple things stood out from an initial cursory read: - A reference to the observations and conclusions from RFC7704 might be useful Under 3. Terminology: - I would suggest changing 'ethnic' to 'cultural' - Consider replacing: o a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds with: o different socioeconomic and sociocultural backgrounds - Consider adding: o different physical and neurophysical abilities - Consider replacing: "diversity" has multiple axes with: "diversity" has many different aspects Under 4. Perceived Return of Investment (ROI) - I am a bit confused by this argument, not sure I fully follow it. Apart from maybe having some comprehension or consistency issues, it has the risk of economic reductionism. I think the rewards from different members of the community are different and not necessarily tied to financial gains. - Consider changing: developing countries with: low- and middle-income countries 5. Effects of Current Participation - This section would definitely benefit from a link to RFC7704 as well as RFC8719 8. Difficulty in Joining the IETF Would benefit from a mention of the Tao and the EDU-TEAM - 9. Economic Constraints - Could benefit from mentioning time constraints. 11.3 Comfort zone - This individualizes a problem that might not be individual but a function of the organization or group of people acting in it. Another point might be the appreciation (or lack thereof) of different kinds of knowledge and expertise. Best, Niels On 23-02-2021 01:07, Fernando Gont wrote: > Folks, > > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF". > > The I-D is available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt > > We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it > where necessary/applicable/desired. > > As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. > > Thanks! > > Regards, -- Niels ten Oever, PhD Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf From nobody Tue Feb 23 13:02:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C033A0906 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:02:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9RkHkZFdAC1d for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 042543A0905 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:02:22 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 22:02:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.greenhost.nl X-Scan-Signature: a6d9551f4f6a9cf0aa9f9bf7e32696d9 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised (was: Re: draft charter text: terminology-related WG) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 21:02:25 -0000 Thanks a lot for this - also my +1. Looking forward to working on text. Best, Niels On 22-02-2021 16:59, Sean Turner wrote: > Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: > > (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and "blacklist/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this suggestion and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought, leaving them in gives context for external readers. > > (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see much support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. > > (3) recommendation to replace “Effective” with “Inclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people want to spend time defining inclusive first. > > Cheers, > spt > > -------- > > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) > ---- > > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. > > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. > > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general principles for judging when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will also point out potentially problematic terms and potential alternatives, or link to an updateable resource containing such information. > > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering inclusivity in the IETF. > > Milestones: > > July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations > >> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >> >> Hi!, >> >> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related WG. >> >> Cheers, >> spt >> >> ---------- >> >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >> >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, clear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are most effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >> >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as “master/slave” and “blacklist/whitelist”) in technical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on inclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from informational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology in IETF documents. >> >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work produced by the IETF. >> >> Milestones: >> >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendations > -- Niels ten Oever, PhD Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf From nobody Tue Feb 23 13:26:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0B13A0C49 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:26:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qt4XZ5g7PsgV for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F7C73A0C3B for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QP00AF4M3JJXX@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:26:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QP00044X3GE83@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:24:14 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:26:05 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-id: <07fa3936-f119-bae2-11bb-1755c8a24c9a@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_99I2bF/QBaU3uuAU28IbcQ)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com> <7E22BA1B-7AB9-4127-B2D1-B3CD19A52FEB@akamai.com> <2f0fc8e8-ebee-4747-87d1-343df17853a1@lounge.org> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210223a] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 21:26:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_99I2bF/QBaU3uuAU28IbcQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT On 2/23/21 12:44 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > * I don’t look at it that way. I see it as the organization > recognizing that it has had some blind spots and is working to > address them, so that more traditionally-under-represented > people participate. (Once they participate, of course, they > should get treated the same as everyone else. I hope that goes > without saying.) > > >   You don't actually address my statement, you just bring up a vaguery > ("blind spots") and state your aspirational goals ("so that more > traditionally-under-represented people participate"). > > I was trying to say that my view was focused on the organization > correcting things it thought were wrong, whereas your view seems to be > focused on how individuals are treated. >   It's important to remember the things that get snipped out in replies like this. The issue under discussion is whether race should be the sole factor to consider (initially).   Can you make the case for race being the primary factor to consider?   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_99I2bF/QBaU3uuAU28IbcQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

On 2/23/21 12:44 PM, Salz, Rich wrote:
  • I don’t look at it that way. I see it as the organization recognizing that it has had some blind spots and is working to address them, so that more traditionally-under-represented people participate. (Once they participate, of course, they should get treated the same as everyone else. I hope that goes without saying.)


  You don't actually address my statement, you just bring up a vaguery
("blind spots") and state your aspirational goals ("so that more
traditionally-under-represented people participate").

I was trying to say that my view was focused on the organization correcting things it thought were wrong, whereas your view seems to be focused on how individuals are treated.


  It's important to remember the things that get snipped out
in replies like this. The issue under discussion is whether race
should be the sole factor to consider (initially).

  Can you make the case for race being the primary factor to
consider?

  Dan.

-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_99I2bF/QBaU3uuAU28IbcQ)-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 13:50:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120413A0CE7; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zy6JrVOAZfbq; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C83B3A0CE2; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id c11so9681513pfp.10; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h958QFpW4MFBOtTRW+xnHuTpoXsrVltYcbDBYVIFnXI=; b=cVGHlgjboreOI1f5pEEDs8YLRbzWWm6UpKM1vE4ckNvDqFSIRgxEbvvFNG/QigDvmB bucJ2vBpzhbqvv/AiliWBRZZQTuxWkHu5jo/kC+KsQWHPgySVjpajGtUG9yQsyzi+MfZ +g5ATf9KboNz+kjWD98K2Cfzcz6iv+MYzmOA93GycdafFSi3k5W0UW0sLacLXKhw6byi 7dcYMdybZfH/dXoP9i8ZFIfVeDPghYlTxDctquwpo9u5yQJLStQOanjQ1/oYS9oD65OB SxZda3lTy5RTFX8JGj3VKhxtqpBB2OhPtQMz6Ivitcw4taKlPKR60jv80Dj9NHo3y+f/ FlJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h958QFpW4MFBOtTRW+xnHuTpoXsrVltYcbDBYVIFnXI=; b=bc6lnhoPF0WoZ02EAqrqwRKOWkVvDivpfwCQjHnjQE36kwJsx3kGe81agmzuPK25U3 aY7egbUs9e3DQUuaG5rdpwDBdoIYrCZybYD5sONRJxZihAXVZZWVKN4qmcydyceCIxuw iSMcUUvT/hfsFuK4Yshk5h1/ozVEWWYRr8pjTyeU7Oc9H+DTksRd+JIUYzFQ6GIZm9tx PFqGTSw1txkMU+TANqz8ZtK+vV2hOkez9z4cximWgi0MabH/n6eEiGfSAEHJ8xsSYWDA KPyjjIIFRqxMVyjZoGBAsiymM4/UaV3RKU4VLjPAK640CK5LQaFoFxMYo1SBUgV54DBW 6IDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531QCmdg5xrr6SiN7KWIGjzNSaKW2492SxBmQcZKiyo1vywxFDJp LlpTpoRBNEuba2Y05D5Yb/4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzSmlgHi8ZcdnzjzQQoQ55OQNPwaBxGG/7sVuuFMNTKkYeXLI+wM3NfyBhSNjMkKWuId036fQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:794:: with SMTP id 142mr25805385pgh.323.1614117033431; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s138sm136490pfc.135.2021.02.23.13.50.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:50:32 -0800 (PST) To: Hannes Tschofenig , Fernando Gont , "'ietf@ietf.org'" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:50:28 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 21:50:36 -0000 Hannes, On 23-Feb-21 22:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number of participants who are not interested to write any code*. Can you justify "increasing number"? I don't mean compared to 1986, but compared (for example) to 2011? As long as I can remember, people have been concerned about participants who are "goers" rather than "doers" at meetings, and you seem to be adding a further concern, "doers" whose action is to write text rather than write code. Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at all but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another category of "doers". I'd like to see some actual facts about these various categories of "doers". What % were they 10 or 20 years ago, and what % are they now? Has the hackathon changed the numbers? Etc. > I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when talking about the new leadership election cycles. Yes, it should be on NomCom's radar. The need for enough ops people has long been understood, but recent development experience is also relevant. > Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impression to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering organization. Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I think there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/BCP205 back to the WG. > Ciao > Hannes > > *: I am also including authors of protocol specifications that do not implement their own specifications. That's a bit cruel. In larger organisations, it might be totally infeasible. But again, RFC7942 is our friend. Regards Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf On Behalf Of Fernando Gont > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 1:07 AM > To: 'ietf@ietf.org' ; GENDISPATCH List ; Keith Moore > Subject: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF > > Folks, > > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF". > > The I-D is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt > > We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it where necessary/applicable/desired. > > As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. > > Thanks! > > Regards, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. > From nobody Tue Feb 23 14:26:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A853A0DB3; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DBobCDo9WQnA; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4C263A0DAE; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id f33so231814otf.11; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ch2DrHMcAg5akAhD0speoqVuBLxiBxq3bq57z5llML4=; b=sD81D5XzjCdlMHT+eX+r0yGOYQyaxVrLmKJczrxQUJJRTn9gxoYQGjLd3wd0KPw162 F9TAgtmjVnG3LYocT/WzxWErgXB1yprrCwb+x3U2YGh3U0xYZORtYJL1u09nRBdZiTQz kHJwklW+1khLHghsBaMUuBohz0WxWZtyQc3Ztq68+EpST502lrRk5jx6SqwJooQFyt53 TPsAD2xq8fD0t5QQiql6mYX8YoHTFkL8Xlc0ZiFNFzHa57MTbr7cgfnc1fkuAq6CxwMh Ht793WvpSS13DonmO3GsC028cmeG3UWgKDuG4uOxGdgpAFjmxZaNzGrTCuKJCUxm3uEy PVQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ch2DrHMcAg5akAhD0speoqVuBLxiBxq3bq57z5llML4=; b=XwQsHUb11Mad1Z2Ffv3cHsGE6j6emloSgvdaP7QXBYH4S4FqLD7bpbiCMc6N9pPkKs 6VRWeL79APU+3FN2isDNUCAFzNdeUDQZ/lLu4EaCRILp7cpAYQtDylXeVfUg0Io7lzvQ XLCgX92Kd2oWF5ylVkAo7rqHjMCvctXE/Q2mlYaFNKddss4u8P+ZfB83a0aZT2BbIx2u M9HbQ5XmOD0GrtxgseIyJ4/hv1VEzk/ynEE7GxHi1HHGCWU+XWwLM79YVYhs61+KqxNk OiyI+rclLgyuMtP5k1v0aSp7MRlU1zhdOzI260AoOR8yQn2kFFpPssWWSC31DaPrDzU7 70zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530vhMojLyKALWX3T+9XuyOgdI6ZnzdeV1OL/eSp3FJCmD0OQlIv 8uBrW4kz2WpjINZVBtNbKrZU1xT9xU3RNikwJzE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzQa1aXjE6f2EqlWLKFokO+E00ryyfj/e52MS92M7jHQn2htvQF6b0Xooi+CFJv/0lTL0WC6U+q+4dJftLmBNc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:4a1:: with SMTP id l1mr3264716otd.137.1614119188181; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> From: Mary Barnes Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:26:16 -0600 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d6350405bc086838" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 22:26:31 -0000 --000000000000d6350405bc086838 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hannes, Ditto to what Brian said. I no longer write code although I have written LOTS of code for lots of systems for nearly 20 years that have run in the real world for decades (there's still Nortel DMS cranking away out there). And, while I write specs, I do work very closely with those implementing the specs and I don't write specs for things that aren't being considered as potential products/real systems. I ask lots of questions when I'm working with those coding, so I'm confident folks do understand what it is they're implementing. I worked with contractors implementing ACME for one company a few years back and I knew they didn't understand because I could see the questions they were asking in the open forums and I knew they were misinterpreting those responses. I found the place in the Let's Encrypt code where they needed to hook in the new code and I was almost at the point of writing the code myself over a weekend with my son, but it was their job. There's far more value in my being able to educate the folks coding, provide architectural feedback, talk to vendors to ensure that what they are providing meets the requirements (security in particular) as well as testing the system after it's been coded and providing feedback. And, in my experience, the coding is the easy part. When I was a developer, that was the fun part - the reward after you got all the required documentation written. And, I always develop specs from the perspective that a developer needs to use that as the basis for writing code, so I know how I would want things written to facilitate that process. So, your point about people writing specs not being the ones writing code is a little judgemental. I would say "elitist" and that's how it comes off, but I don't consider those that write code necessarily to be the elite. But, it is this notion that there are certain types of people at IETF that are amongst the elite that is one of the issues around inclusion. Regards, Mary. On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 3:51 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hannes, > > On 23-Feb-21 22:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > Hi Fernando, > > > > I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that > increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number > of participants who are not interested to write any code*. > > Can you justify "increasing number"? I don't mean compared to 1986, but > compared (for example) to 2011? As long as I can remember, people have been > concerned about participants who are "goers" rather than "doers" at > meetings, and you seem to be adding a further concern, "doers" whose action > is to write text rather than write code. > > Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at all > but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another category > of "doers". > > I'd like to see some actual facts about these various categories of > "doers". What % were they 10 or 20 years ago, and what % are they now? Has > the hackathon changed the numbers? Etc. > > > I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when talking > about the new leadership election cycles. > > Yes, it should be on NomCom's radar. The need for enough ops people has > long been understood, but recent development experience is also relevant. > > > Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impression > to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering > organization. > > Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I think > there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/BCP205 > back to the WG. > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > > *: I am also including authors of protocol specifications that do not > implement their own specifications. > > That's a bit cruel. In larger organisations, it might be totally > infeasible. But again, RFC7942 is our friend. > > Regards > Brian > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ietf On Behalf Of Fernando Gont > > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 1:07 AM > > To: 'ietf@ietf.org' ; GENDISPATCH List < > gendispatch@ietf.org>; Keith Moore > > Subject: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF > > > > Folks, > > > > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in > the IETF". > > > > The I-D is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt > > > > We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the > breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it where > necessary/applicable/desired. > > > > As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the > surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start > to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Regards, > > -- > > Fernando Gont > > SI6 Networks > > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > > > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000d6350405bc086838 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hannes,

Ditto to what Brian said.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0

I no longer write code although I have wri= tten LOTS of code for lots of systems for nearly 20 years that have run in = the real world for decades (there's still Nortel DMS cranking away out = there).=C2=A0 =C2=A0And, while I write specs, I do work very closely with t= hose implementing the specs and I don't write specs for things that are= n't being considered as potential products/real systems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I= ask lots of questions when I'm working with those coding, so I'm c= onfident folks do understand what it is they're implementing.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0I worked with=C2=A0 contractors implementing ACME for one company a few = years back and I knew they didn't understand because I could see the qu= estions they=C2=A0were asking in the open forums and I knew they were misin= terpreting those responses.=C2=A0 I found the place in the Let's Encryp= t code where they needed to hook in the new code and I was almost at the po= int of writing the code myself over a weekend with my=C2=A0son, but it was = their job.=C2=A0=C2=A0

There's far more value = in my being able to educate the folks coding, provide architectural feedbac= k, talk to vendors to ensure that what they are providing meets the require= ments (security in particular) as well as testing the system after it's= been coded and providing feedback.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And, in my experience, the = coding is the easy part. When I was a developer, that was the fun part - th= e reward after you got all the required documentation written.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= And, I always develop specs from the perspective that a developer needs to = use that as the basis for writing code, so I know how I would want things w= ritten to facilitate that process.=C2=A0=C2=A0

So,= your point about people writing specs not being the ones writing code is a= little judgemental.=C2=A0 I would say "elitist" and that's h= ow it comes off, but I don't consider those that write code necessarily= to be the elite.=C2=A0 But, it is this notion that there are certain types= of people at IETF that are amongst the elite that is one of the issues aro= und inclusion.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Regards,
Mary= .=C2=A0

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 3:51 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>= wrote:
Hannes,<= br>
On 23-Feb-21 22:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Fernando,
>
> I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that i= ncreasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number of= participants who are not interested to write any code*.

Can you justify "increasing number"? I don't mean compared to= 1986, but compared (for example) to 2011? As long as I can remember, peopl= e have been concerned about participants who are "goers" rather t= han "doers" at meetings, and you seem to be adding a further conc= ern, "doers" whose action is to write text rather than write code= .

Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at a= ll but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another c= ategory of "doers".

I'd like to see some actual facts about these various categories of &qu= ot;doers". What % were they 10 or 20 years ago, and what % are they no= w? Has the hackathon changed the numbers? Etc.

> I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when talking= about the new leadership election cycles.

Yes, it should be on NomCom's radar. The need for enough ops people has= long been understood, but recent development experience is also relevant.<= br>
> Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impressio= n to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering= organization.

Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I thi= nk there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/= BCP205 back to the WG.

> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> *: I am also including authors of protocol specifications that do not = implement their own specifications.

That's a bit cruel. In larger organisations, it might be totally infeas= ible. But again, RFC7942 is our friend.

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 1:07 AM
> To: 'ietf@ietf.= org' <ietf@ie= tf.org>; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Keith Moore <moore@network-here= tics.com>
> Subject: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
>
> Folks,
>
> We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusivenes= s in the IETF".
>
> The I-D is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/archiv= e/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt
>
> We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/).= But given the breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad t= o discuss it where necessary/applicable/desired.
>
> As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the= surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start = to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Regards,
> --
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail: fgo= nt@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
>
>
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are c= onfidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipie= nt, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents t= o any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the informatio= n in any medium. Thank you.
>

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000d6350405bc086838-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 14:27:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7C13A0E94; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wfsKSVnZSKG2; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pch.net (keriomail.pch.net [206.220.231.84]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 569A13A0E12; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:55 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: cGNoLm5ldA== Received: from [10.19.48.6] ([69.166.14.2]) by mail.pch.net (Kerio Connect 9.2.7 patch 3) with ESMTPS (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits)); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:26:48 -0800 From: Bill Woodcock Message-Id: <0D1E168A-5FF3-4B49-918F-4A38868DAC5C@pch.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4325FAAC-7ED1-4D98-9CC8-1F6A2AA5A18A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 23:26:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore To: Brian E Carpenter References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 22:27:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4325FAAC-7ED1-4D98-9CC8-1F6A2AA5A18A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 23, 2021, at 10:50 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at = all but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another = category of "doers". Yep. PCH has been an active participant in the IETF for some 28 years, and = we=E2=80=99re not a code-writing shop, we=E2=80=99re an operator. We = have very strong feelings about what=E2=80=99s needed, and we also know = that we aren=E2=80=99t going to be the ones writing that code, we=E2=80=99= re going to be the ones fielding it and trying to make it scale. So, = yes, we care about the success of the IETF and the open standards = process and multistakeholderism, because it=E2=80=99s all vital to our = being able to hold up our end of things. Writing code is one critical aspect of the IETF. Writing specifications = is another critical aspect of the IETF. Testing interoperability is yet = another. None of these stand alone, and none work without the others. -Bill --Apple-Mail=_4325FAAC-7ED1-4D98-9CC8-1F6A2AA5A18A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEm6XJ0FdpKWJHso4lb6RwSyiLf4cFAmA1gR0ACgkQb6RwSyiL f4c0ERAAtp6noMvVS5bXGxPFNGQPi/AyJRHEkQXPcgCrk0LPP9piKBlETMbl4nEn 8H2RkG6ddaveJcEBUixQL/jRlBf51KGW6/QQi5GfbKlHSnD5Cv3kT+jy9ynKHcMO 3e5hSX5dTgDkk8xmr32AEmIzV9pSI+1rm4M5rhbdaFM2aixJ/M/srvmoaXUB22gR Eq5+x8xpRY2UgljcoAmeL1bH2wZ+ktXuzVij3m8NkqKUqrxKUhnk40PQFuzelHe/ XxQOXP2iqxiNLTImaBGv3UIvHAB4aLTFxekF3NdYFtatsr1Csv+/2Be88rMl6nrS QIjiEIxSB7VfojRUT0chzcYGyykiFwYhdmtz5PgOJFcQx5qO37uyHS5ATbaM69Vu vvXoG0wrQWnY3vlqFv96SX+Ourrdl7dNGKznx0yE+9TYUVWRVxtztMK+/oARedqX RiLX+pWFAF8/az2+tKjldW3110RkXMav6gUrhGdThijeLrU4UQ9uBlWnwqcXGBno 7dkx3IBkbH2lhyFHr9K/tMY4qTvXoBpJMHjyV5VDTlvA9If/gK6FSkhk3MjV+G0N XX6uZ/JhUnYc324m6QIPxvRXy1dXboYpUKY15spZLYe3rTIS94TGUHIJRA1g1S7K P1K6ulOMyGiQTpEE+4H7qHEJkur8RCOOKJ5ptZpTiuTlTEsTstI= =qzWF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4325FAAC-7ED1-4D98-9CC8-1F6A2AA5A18A-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 18:06:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611753A1379; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:06:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BYflDYRQg_Ch; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A67573A1378; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:8c90:e3df:68bf:9f07] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:8c90:e3df:68bf:9f07]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B376A2804DE; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 02:06:30 +0000 (UTC) To: Jay Daley Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 23:06:15 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 02:06:45 -0000 Hello, Jay, Thanks so much for your comments! In-line.... On 23/2/21 17:16, Jay Daley wrote: > Thanks for attempting a comprehensive overview. > > Some things jumped out at me: > > 1. At times the draft appears to conflate issues of > 'diversity/inclusion’ with issues of ‘participation’ in general. In > case the difference is not clear - an issue with participation only > becomes an issue with diversity/inclusion when one specific group of > people is disproportionately affected. The two are indeed related: the more "expensive" (in multiple axes) it is to participate, the more the system benefits those with more resources. e.g., if you need four full working-days to effectively participate in the IETF, you'll only be able to participate if somehow you can make a living out of participation. > Specific examples of where it does that are sections 7 (Processes), The more something is loosely specified, the more discretionary actions are possible, (as noted, in *some* cases might indeed beneficial). That means that a newcomer is at the will of such discretionary actions. And since the process is biased in favor of a sub-set of individuals and organizations, and that same group generally runs the process, then discretionary actions would not be unlikely to reflect the interests of said group. THere is the saying that "the law is there to protect the weaker, because the strong probably don't need protection". > 8 (Difficulties in joining the > IETF), 11.2 (Using email effectively) and 11.3 (Comfort zone), all of > which are general issues with participation. They are general issues which do not affect all people the same. For example, a rude environment can be seen as "a general issue with participation". However, a rude environment will not affect all participants in the same way. Some will walk away, others will nevertheless stay. > 2. At times the draft also appears to conflate issues of > 'diversity/inclusion' with issues of 'conflict of interest', where > that conflict of interest comes from multiple people having the same > employer. For example: > > - From section 6 > > Process fairness by having a very small number of interests judging > WG consensus, community consensus, and appeals. > > Leadership selection fairness by having a limited number of interests > participating in the NOMCOM and IAB. And the two are indeed related. When conflicts of interest systematically affect an organization, there's a whole range of peo people that will walk away. e.g., if contributions are treated/processed differently depending on the affiliation of the author, that certainly results in diversity and inclusivity issues. One way or another, if the same company funds people that submits proposals, and also fund the people that judge such proposals, there is going to be an obvious conflict of interest. Diversity in IETF roles, nomcom, etc., would mean that such conflicts of interest can be reduced to a minimum. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Feb 23 20:16:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD2C3A0C04 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:16:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6hjCGpoJax5 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327E93A0C03 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.185.46]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 11O4GHph022607 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:16:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1614140189; x=1614226589; i=@elandsys.com; bh=7vnol+9NP0XPSGcemnkg0E9QWl86HAKtzodCtFiLoW4=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=TIJJzdvA6lq2t7YhJ4ys4laJB0WHWIcB2bsC0ic5Tjt6Iq+6KTW9F8tccBAPQ2Tbw WlaeL2MWucPFN9ePd/7KIUWF362XPqJCcuKuqcF8dt5l33GBh8nqIx0rmyziYFO5CU vN+DDXLp5AkFQPEwew2sMDdvYITaxJB2FdyXOyUg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210223201214.15b20660@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:15:34 -0800 To: Juliana Guerra , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <2b9ed952-a255-72a2-6a83-46a8eed46f96@derechosdigitales.org > References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <2b9ed952-a255-72a2-6a83-46a8eed46f96@derechosdigitales.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 04:16:46 -0000 Hi Juliana, At 09:00 AM 23-02-2021, Juliana Guerra wrote: >- In section 11.3 Comfort Zone, I missed at least a comment about the >difficulties and necessary compromises to deal with disagreement and >difference. I think it would be useful to mention RFC 7154 and RFC 7776, >and consider the list Vittorio B shared before. My experience of RFC 7776 is that it does not work. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Tue Feb 23 20:21:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46CB3A0C3D for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:21:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e_WOZmKCpyl1 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A07D3A0C38 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id c19so465484pjq.3 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:21:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mGEMv5XFKEwVpQKFTPwjd63UfeUou4XBWeftG7xF6ws=; b=d4MyYj0+CKD+dZl3tXFBrC3Ym5jHoj2vavU+9OoFcxVh0kTpWVQ5SWwP82ntpNe0mc N9OXF24oubTgeSfkBZiPAVYRlMuB8WMNN5cm8hs5O2DjRL/OFopkBWw5jSVEa0GWt82l HnLkeFuAXY+c9gxoXmLE3nLpMY77Bae/Qd5i4CTsZQAwBvCQvQvLILJLyZO1Mjh5x4DS m7YVojw9DWDXS3rmFp8koZEk4Cv1PeIyPM9p8g3OgaRLI+rt0BJipeb889DXyl21acbE FOlhqnx8oYM4wqxDLXSPRILchH1em70Yeb23NUP4hPGCVDRowK4UN5d4/u/LfiqoECNN SgLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mGEMv5XFKEwVpQKFTPwjd63UfeUou4XBWeftG7xF6ws=; b=lyZkRRPsqao8RJCFrwxof2zOyyniBpMriroq6aHLbDJVbRZAyCXgKo4PbDhIkTHg0u 8BOt7KQh68L/48pGwfFuI49MF8yebajLYVXpdx1nxOwDmVDcr1smmpVYfri9hJp/tC2V mvAVbPG/m9+7WNiJyZFCxDyknMdlhLAHqzy0a2HMrth1LD7Vn4dnN5pZzLIsa9SSuCeM IIXOXhNdfvySk/nSMqi4YnUmAnMocL6PK+3FLeyoxnT7mOmfD7YG8sdzBpQ3gOZGSJql MSMlstzMPMGKUa5fix+aAPzeS6nHt1q4bZ01BIbE238iFcJmE8dUCSWCQN/holYrFnFl 22Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530170YLsmZA5ovViRxWJioG5Tl4tjOnHin65j0XGqxz9LiZdhws tjL2VAA+mYTKbxwtSNVqvoI/4X+splvUxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwMl+lwDCsMALt/ig3PV62E+wcn9XgQ9WvUXsMr45aJXzzVWwsFOLa/JxyCTTYUJ5KSuunIDQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3783:: with SMTP id mz3mr954135pjb.88.1614140501471; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 72sm764693pfv.5.2021.02.23.20.21.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:21:40 -0800 (PST) To: S Moonesamy , Juliana Guerra , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <2b9ed952-a255-72a2-6a83-46a8eed46f96@derechosdigitales.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20210223201214.15b20660@elandnews.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <578155df-2940-381a-dfed-ec07251e0106@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:21:36 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20210223201214.15b20660@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 04:21:44 -0000 On 24-Feb-21 17:15, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Juliana, > At 09:00 AM 23-02-2021, Juliana Guerra wrote: >> - In section 11.3 Comfort Zone, I missed at least a comment about the >> difficulties and necessary compromises to deal with disagreement and >> difference. I think it would be useful to mention RFC 7154 and RFC 7776, >> and consider the list Vittorio B shared before. > > My experience of RFC 7776 is that it does not work. Can you please provide some more details of that assertion, suitably anonymized? Regards Brian From nobody Tue Feb 23 20:42:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98D03A0CDC for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g1dPpDs7Kg0S for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFEF3A0CD9 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.185.46]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 11O4fbIM007858 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:41:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1614141710; x=1614228110; i=@elandsys.com; bh=ugrzVODKQ0teMocHWe1f/Gs+EkBgtu2XrfY2UKdQafo=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=kgAgJBW9VOstcdc+Kuwj82gcPUZKrHiRwqcgEMDJgr18d1Z82qXJmataAqelWWqBu SuqIM75xgOflTxg0nRMCZb88l82o0OaWPcB2Lv370NTqmqnmNh+QWtmgMc3NpV8PL0 1rw0n8kD6sALx3/kyrlkyVFLazX6OTkvEC4MCdCA= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210223203840.0d18c8b0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:41:12 -0800 To: Brian E Carpenter , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy Cc: Juliana Guerra In-Reply-To: <578155df-2940-381a-dfed-ec07251e0106@gmail.com> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <2b9ed952-a255-72a2-6a83-46a8eed46f96@derechosdigitales.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20210223201214.15b20660@elandnews.com> <578155df-2940-381a-dfed-ec07251e0106@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 04:42:04 -0000 Hi Brian, At 08:21 PM 23-02-2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >Can you please provide some more details of that assertion, suitably >anonymized? There was a report which was filed in August 2020. Regards, S. 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Wed, 24 Feb 2021 07:22:24 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: Mary Barnes , Brian E Carpenter CC: Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Thread-Index: AQHXCXgbtlRdrPa6OEShU5hVFqdRTqplfalggADLMgCAAAoBAIAAjKiQ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 07:22:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: 694785FC37987542B39E55E7753B6C7B.0 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=arm.com; x-originating-ip: [80.92.115.86] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 3882aacf-b3cb-4380-ee6a-08d8d894f2bd x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR08MB4977 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 07:22:56 -0000 --_000_AM0PR08MB37163BD6FC65DBF03D1ABC05FA9F9AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFyeSwNCg0KSXQgaXMgZ3JlYXQgdG8gaGVhciB0aGF0IHlvdSBhbHNvIGNvbnNpZGVyIGNv ZGluZyB0aGUgZnVuIHBhcnQuDQoNCk5vdGUgdGhhdCBJIGFtIG5vdCBzYXlpbmcgdGhhdCB0aG9z ZSB3aG8gZG8gbm90IHdyaXRlIGNvZGUgYXJlIG5vdCBhbGxvd2VkIHRvIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRlIGlu IHRoZSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwLiBGYXIgZnJvbSB0aGUgdHJ1dGguIElmIHlvdSBoYXZlIHJlYWQg 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DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1614159584; bh=Rlh+bdDsqgCpPRZPojaABXGBgJHbXAoTJgX04WgJcNc=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=SWFayiYpMkQ8ztx1hdjz+m2ZjuSiJvww/3hJ4qLbNwN60wSMcDutxesSPEEanbVEn q9nQDYw18Wr963npuuqFDxGsOhQocUUCiYsivJK0l9plksBJPCNukfL9NMt+H3aCi0 krQzSLGaBOznk3sq5qIm4JJzQlC7FAETj400tbG/FqoCR9JF4Y12Qx348hEfzebrDM MZglPAh2lX64ZxyDsIVIi3DdcLo3k7eN5aMXc5gzl6BVzeeO6+3EY9mbQ7u7hlkI40 QJn4hLZ4fH70Bf9Vk+pPEruDSUDwO44wGvdNPxf17Mw2+iknPT4FpHbtX6D5zpDvGJ +ChW1CyZ3G7fw== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com ([10.20.28.81]) by imap.open-xchange.com with ESMTPSA id FSW1HeAeNmBaDAAA3c6Kzw (envelope-from ); Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:39:44 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:39:44 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_69379_745955489.1614159584417" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 09:40:01 -0000 ------=_Part_69379_745955489.1614159584417 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 24/02/2021 08:22 Hannes Tschofenig ha scritto: > > > The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a responsibility of the document authors. It is a culture that has to cut across the organization, from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, there are disincentives to work on code as a document author. > > I want people with hands-on experience in the leadership of an engineering organization. For me this is a form of diversity. > The question is whether you *only* (mostly) want coders in the leadership, or whether you *also* want coders in the leadership. This makes a lot of difference in evaluating your position. Coming from my own IETF experience, which of course is just about a small subset of everything that is happening here, I'd say that the IETF has the opposite problem - the IETF does not seem to have a way, or even the desire, to acquire non-technical perspectives on what it is doing, so whenever a new protocol ends up prompting significant regulatory, business or social changes, they seem to come unexpectedly; the non-technical stakeholders that were not involved in the design phase get mad at the IETF, and the people at the IETF are surprised (sometimes even offended) by that reaction. And then you get a debate on whether code is law or not and whether the socio-economic implications of new technologies have to be considered by the technologists, which I thought we had closed forever at the turn of the century. (But sorry, possibly this is not a discussion in topic for gendispatch - it is more for a new WG on diversity and inclusiveness ;-) ) -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_69379_745955489.1614159584417 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 24/02/2021 08:22 Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@arm.com> ha scritto:

The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a responsibility of the document authors. It is a culture that has to cut across the organization, from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, there are disincentives to work on code as a document author.

I want people with hands-on experience in the leadership of an engineering organization. For me this is a form of diversity.

The question is whether you *only* (mostly) want coders in the leadership, or whether you *also* want coders in the leadership. This makes a lot of difference in evaluating your position.

Coming from my own IETF experience, which of course is just about a small subset of everything that is happening here, I'd say that the IETF has the opposite problem - the IETF does not seem to have a way, or even the desire, to acquire non-technical perspectives on what it is doing, so whenever a new protocol ends up prompting significant regulatory, business or social changes, they seem to come unexpectedly; the non-technical stakeholders that were not involved in the design phase get mad at the IETF, and the people at the IETF are surprised (sometimes even offended) by that reaction. And then you get a debate on whether code is law or not and whether the socio-economic implications of new technologies have to be considered by the technologists, which I thought we had closed forever at the turn of the century.

(But sorry, possibly this is not a discussion in topic for gendispatch - it is more for a new WG on diversity and inclusiveness ;-) )

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 24 Feb 2021 15:43:04 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-98-184.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-98-184.cisco.com [10.61.98.184]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11OFh39l025795 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:43:04 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <233D58BF-EDC4-4C9C-80DF-7859BFF2D36E@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5CE5C1BD-50E0-4DB4-83DA-0A9255153231"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:43:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <27444663-f39a-4a05-8e5d-074ccb0ab2b1@www.fastmail.com> Cc: GENDISPATCH List To: Bron Gondwana References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <27444663-f39a-4a05-8e5d-074ccb0ab2b1@www.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.98.184, dhcp-10-61-98-184.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:43:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5CE5C1BD-50E0-4DB4-83DA-0A9255153231 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Meanwhile=E2=80=A6 =E2=80=A6 I think the draft that Keith and Fernando wrote is a good = start. The organization might need a bit of work, but I like the idea of having = a menu from which we can pick in order to address some, but perhaps not = all, of the issues. Also, first, it would be good to quantify the situation. In what = dimensions are we diverse and in what dimensions are we not? Second, = for each dimension in which we are not, some discussion as to which of = the issues raised hits which dimension. That is, draw out the possible = causalities. It could be that some logic is wrong. What are the questions that need = to be asked and answered to validate the assertions being made, and = which parties are in a good position to ask, and which are in a good = position to answer? This sets up an opportunity to see that any changes we make will likely = have some effect. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_5CE5C1BD-50E0-4DB4-83DA-0A9255153231 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmA2dAcACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejNlmQf/T0X30i7LA7/zBlqF18N7IJfSIj6WbGChudpx2VsFCUwOiO1ghttslRTf v04Ec8ofSdudQpGfD6Ai5aTRABodHGYJ4d4R/9rtXf+LkIAkAtA1NI3WrCpSFXJY rrmggt35gUlGP9SnErpVv5EZncJM/8gak8fxDnfm3W5TNFsvSRdEh8s0pKbqpyu7 F4y8FTvDH/Wh4DqhrVXfhkLgcXBjknpeUvfR9nGARl4vcoXy+dtNtywgAgoNNQpF 8W1VZ6pArWGYcDSPlwb5H1mUZvlfjhiMCNHtnC2U6L6kasY9aNSw+yqbDGz/4LyX kYcNFgE9hGzF8S7smKgs1vNP4auDug== =B/uo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5CE5C1BD-50E0-4DB4-83DA-0A9255153231-- From nobody Wed Feb 24 08:00:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF28D3A1772 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:00:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BxSGzEnAOMzR for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F33F3A175B for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 07:59:36 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <27444663-f39a-4a05-8e5d-074ccb0ab2b1@www.fastmail.com> <233D58BF-EDC4-4C9C-80DF-7859BFF2D36E@cisco.com> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <0108a2a2-844a-28fc-ca13-2745abed826a@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:59:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <233D58BF-EDC4-4C9C-80DF-7859BFF2D36E@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.greenhost.nl X-Scan-Signature: 71684ae416b12bc74806129cb02de027 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:00:19 -0000 On 24-02-2021 16:43, Eliot Lear wrote: > Also, first, it would be good to quantify the situation. In what dimensions are we diverse and in what dimensions are we not? Second, for each dimension in which we are not, some discussion as to which of the issues raised hits which dimension. That is, draw out the possible causalities. I understand the interest in quantification, and it might be useful in some cases, but I would like to underline that not everything is quantifiable in a meaningful way. See for instance: https://hbr.org/2011/05/the-risks-of-quantification Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever, PhD Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf From nobody Wed Feb 24 08:17:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586EE3A177D; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:17:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RnqW_7WJt5uS; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:17:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 099183A178C; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id l133so2940358oib.4; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:17:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SoVA/cCgXtg4kzxoVKTTmLwDujbyC9P/Oc1VgZhxsm4=; b=jlzXHwk3Sgh2vTWJomMv4UVSq61mzTZKCgay6gsEbJ87sy7S3OFkgeDRIXTFjnMP1L ZYh3C8/w2pBvfqOFv2Edv8yajH5FwjIs/IHotcHL45WY/un60FwL4spnaYHMd9/AzjSe kFYnziPcit2vPapje4JouRReHNvvCeulMRJIpmu7mzN5qTuFRKdENwn7vaTIxpSGPTeG NUvk773ZrPsFQq8aGqn1W7kMvdKC2TONU7MyBTrh7/ASRNzOOySEN2G29R6Xh89VrkIH pE/z+Ep/r6uvjLi7V7fnj9GEbV7bUC8nRmlYNPVt296Uhp8ctVeQ7dz7eeHcwG7QToD/ +abw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SoVA/cCgXtg4kzxoVKTTmLwDujbyC9P/Oc1VgZhxsm4=; b=KbwflinW31H8sPqMsAIMaAslqpFrE4aN9X6JPuUQy6dofvEaGQAVIqRs4rdTeftQVC 1KK5k1LB9VSdLZLcOXuJV6OGxD+oLatSTweLyefH0FYmbwCw06ZcNVRwB2rlvYIP5Gz0 i4P6zyxjbIJ07mlkZxsDyjWL1Svx0EYiyANF8H7BxH9kEFzjLSW5bw+wpqnc7nPDWprO D8Rogbwvk+41FzAYywMAKXgF2bdeHCCbssm9YR7oS/cY8KsjoRWEwa3gAZPiTcjDJfm8 QihvBKwAacc7PfSDO25g7P3902FS2gL1gI6P3xoE8O9h/50v3UXCxfS6vA37iv/ZHeDW QyqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531++0LdSEL3QKLyOSwl86lHTIlzGMs5w9JCKLtVVJkafskX6Kq2 VVrCgKPlTr82d2mI9xS0qOTmHg8vEgSFL/suI8g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwt0PnfM57N4nXWbzl+il7i+Onh8BBPuxz4arzo4D9SKEnltmP6fdofoCpuDFUNEfy7qPDNY3IkkKfc/B5aobw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d883:: with SMTP id p125mr3303602oig.114.1614183466078; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:17:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mary Barnes Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:17:34 -0600 Message-ID: To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019189105bc1760a4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:17:50 -0000 --00000000000019189105bc1760a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 1:22 AM Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Mary, > > > > It is great to hear that you also consider coding the fun part. > > > > Note that I am not saying that those who do not write code are not allowed > to participate in the working group. Far from the truth. If you have read > through the OAuth discussion you may have noticed that I am a big advocate > of involving an wide range of expertise. > > > > To the point: IMHO there has to be a difference between the document > author and other participants, most of which are passive. I see the role of > a document author being more than just the person writing the text. > Hopefully that person cares enough about the work he or she proposes to go > the extra mile. If a document author does not care about implementing his > or her protocol then we have a problem. > > > > Implementations, even if they are just prototypes, provide valuable > feedback during the work on a specification. Someone has to do this work. > Writing an implementation of a protocol can easily be several times the > effort of writing a specification. > > I doubt it is a good approach to just wait till someone does the work for > you. > > > > I am seeing this happening today in the IETF in many working groups. > > > > Do you agree that > > - Implementations provide valuable feedback during the standardization > work, > > [MB] I totally agree. [/MB] > > - > - Someone has to do the implementation work, > > [MB] Definitely. And, per the point brought up about operators, they generally aren't the ones writing the code, their vendors are. [/MB] > > - > - Implementations are time consuming (even if they are fun for many to > write)? > > [MB] They can be very time consuming and in my experience the issue is more that folks are often busy working other products out while I might be working on specs, so they often don't have the time to dedicate while specs are being written. And, in the places I've worked unless there's a spec in place, folks aren't going to be implementing something. That wasn't the case in one of the groups I was with in Nortel way back when, but it has been in recent years (partly because I fell back in time to the more traditional telecom world where that is the standard development process). [/MB] > > - > > > > The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a responsibility of the > document authors. It is a culture that has to cut across the organization, > from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, there are disincentives > to work on code as a document author. > [MB] I see disincentives in that some companies have people in roles where they wouldn't have time to code because they're doing work well beyond IETF and within their organization, they are just not viewed as part of the group that codes. You get into corporate politics and people not wanting people in other groups to do work that they view as the purview of their group. I can't tell you how much of that I've dealt with. [/MB] > > > I want people with hands-on experience in the leadership of an engineering > organization. For me this is a form of diversity. > [MB] The hands-on experience is great and certainly brings significant value. But, there's also diversity in terms of industries that use the output of IETF and the sort of work they need IETF to do. Certainly, I think the majority of the work is about people contributing to and reviewing specs from the perspective of whether it's good enough that you could write working, interoperable code based on the spec. But, having people that will be deploying products that are based on those specs involved, is also extremely important. And, having people that understand real user experience (and not how things work from an engineer's view) is also important. And, of course, the work I do is generally at a higher layer than your own, so that is why my view is slightly different than yours. And, honestly, I think appreciating that there can be two different views of a situation, with both being equally valid, that is not something IETFers do very well at all. [/MB] > > > I hope this clarifies my point and convinces you that this is not about an > elitist view. > > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > > > > > > *From:* Mary Barnes > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 23, 2021 11:26 PM > *To:* Brian E Carpenter > *Cc:* Hannes Tschofenig ; Fernando Gont < > fgont@si6networks.com>; ietf@ietf.org; GENDISPATCH List < > gendispatch@ietf.org>; Keith Moore > *Subject:* Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF > > > > Hannes, > > > > Ditto to what Brian said. > > > > I no longer write code although I have written LOTS of code for lots of > systems for nearly 20 years that have run in the real world for decades > (there's still Nortel DMS cranking away out there). And, while I write > specs, I do work very closely with those implementing the specs and I don't > write specs for things that aren't being considered as potential > products/real systems. I ask lots of questions when I'm working with > those coding, so I'm confident folks do understand what it is they're > implementing. I worked with contractors implementing ACME for one > company a few years back and I knew they didn't understand because I could > see the questions they were asking in the open forums and I knew they were > misinterpreting those responses. I found the place in the Let's Encrypt > code where they needed to hook in the new code and I was almost at the > point of writing the code myself over a weekend with my son, but it was > their job. > > > > There's far more value in my being able to educate the folks coding, > provide architectural feedback, talk to vendors to ensure that what they > are providing meets the requirements (security in particular) as well as > testing the system after it's been coded and providing feedback. And, in > my experience, the coding is the easy part. When I was a developer, that > was the fun part - the reward after you got all the required documentation > written. And, I always develop specs from the perspective that a > developer needs to use that as the basis for writing code, so I know how I > would want things written to facilitate that process. > > > > So, your point about people writing specs not being the ones writing code > is a little judgemental. I would say "elitist" and that's how it comes > off, but I don't consider those that write code necessarily to be the > elite. But, it is this notion that there are certain types of people at > IETF that are amongst the elite that is one of the issues around > inclusion. > > > > Regards, > > Mary. > > > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 3:51 PM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hannes, > > On 23-Feb-21 22:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > Hi Fernando, > > > > I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that > increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number > of participants who are not interested to write any code*. > > Can you justify "increasing number"? I don't mean compared to 1986, but > compared (for example) to 2011? As long as I can remember, people have been > concerned about participants who are "goers" rather than "doers" at > meetings, and you seem to be adding a further concern, "doers" whose action > is to write text rather than write code. > > Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at all > but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another category > of "doers". > > I'd like to see some actual facts about these various categories of > "doers". What % were they 10 or 20 years ago, and what % are they now? Has > the hackathon changed the numbers? Etc. > > > I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when talking > about the new leadership election cycles. > > Yes, it should be on NomCom's radar. The need for enough ops people has > long been understood, but recent development experience is also relevant. > > > Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impression > to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering > organization. > > Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I think > there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/BCP205 > back to the WG. > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > > *: I am also including authors of protocol specifications that do not > implement their own specifications. > > That's a bit cruel. In larger organisations, it might be totally > infeasible. But again, RFC7942 is our friend. > > Regards > Brian > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ietf On Behalf Of Fernando Gont > > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 1:07 AM > > To: 'ietf@ietf.org' ; GENDISPATCH List < > gendispatch@ietf.org>; Keith Moore > > Subject: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF > > > > Folks, > > > > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in > the IETF". > > > > The I-D is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt > > > > We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the > breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it where > necessary/applicable/desired. > > > > As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the > surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start > to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Regards, > > -- > > Fernando Gont > > SI6 Networks > > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > > > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > --00000000000019189105bc1760a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 1:22 AM Hanne= s Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschof= enig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Mary,

=C2=A0

It is great to hear that you also consider coding th= e fun part.

=C2=A0

Note that I am not saying that those who do not writ= e code are not allowed to participate in the working group. Far from the tr= uth. If you have read through the OAuth discussion you may have noticed tha= t I am a big advocate of involving an wide range of expertise.

=C2=A0

To the point: IMHO there has to be a difference betw= een the document author and other participants, most of which are passive. = I see the role of a document author being more than just the person writing= the text. Hopefully that person cares enough about the work he or she proposes to go the extra mile. If a docume= nt author does not care about implementing his or her protocol then we have= a problem.

=C2=A0

Implementations, even if they are just prototypes, p= rovide valuable feedback during the work on a specification. Someone has to= do this work. Writing an implementation of a protocol can easily be severa= l times the effort of writing a specification.

I doubt it is a good approach to just wait till some= one does the work for you.

=C2=A0

I am seeing this happening today in the IETF in many= working groups.

=C2=A0

Do you agree that

  • Implementations provide valuable feedback during the standardizati= on work,
[MB] I totally agree. [/MB]= =C2=A0
  • Someone has to do the implementation work,
    • =
[MB] Definitely.=C2=A0 And, per the poin= t brought up about operators, they generally aren't the ones writing th= e code, their vendors are. [/MB]=C2=A0
  • Implementations are time consuming (even if the= y are fun for many to write)?
[MB]= =C2=A0 They can be very time consuming and in my experience the issue is mo= re that folks are often busy working other products out while I might be wo= rking on specs, so they often don't have the time to dedicate while spe= cs are being written.=C2=A0 And, in the places I've worked unless there= 's a spec in place, folks aren't going to be implementing something= .=C2=A0 That wasn't the case in one of the groups I was with in Nortel = way back when, but it has been in recent years (partly because I fell back = in time to the more traditional telecom world where that is the standard de= velopment process).=C2=A0 [/MB]=C2=A0
=

=C2=A0

The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a= responsibility of the document authors. It is a culture that has to cut ac= ross the organization, from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, th= ere are disincentives to work on code as a document author.

[MB] I see disincen= tives in that some companies have people in roles where they wouldn't h= ave time to code because they're doing work well beyond IETF and within= their organization, they are just not viewed as part of the group that cod= es.=C2=A0 You get into corporate politics and people not wanting people in = other groups to do work that they view as the purview of their group.=C2=A0= I can't tell you how much of that I've dealt with.=C2=A0 =C2=A0[/M= B]

=C2=A0

I want people with hands-on experience in the leader= ship of an engineering organization. For me this is a form of diversity.

[MB] The hands-on experience is great and ce= rtainly brings significant=C2=A0value.=C2=A0 But, there's also diversit= y in terms of industries that use the output of IETF and the sort of work t= hey need IETF to do.=C2=A0 Certainly, I think the majority of the work is a= bout people contributing to and reviewing specs from the perspective of whe= ther it's good enough that you could write working, interoperable code = based on the spec.=C2=A0 But, having people that will be deploying products= that are based on those specs involved, is also extremely important.=C2=A0= =C2=A0And, having people that understand real user experience (and not how= things work from an engineer's view) is also important.=C2=A0 And, of = course, the work I do is generally at a higher layer than your own, so that= is why my view is slightly different than yours.=C2=A0 And, honestly, I th= ink appreciating that there can be two different views of a situation, with= both being equally valid, that is not something IETFers do very well at al= l.=C2=A0 =C2=A0[/MB]

=

=C2=A0

I hope this clarifies my point and convinces you tha= t this is not about an elitist view.

=C2=A0

Ciao

Hannes

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>=
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 11:26 PM
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Fernando Gont <<= a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com" target=3D"_blank">fgont@si6networks= .com>; ietf@ietf.= org; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com<= /a>>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF

=C2=A0

Hannes,

=C2=A0

Ditto to what Brian said.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=

=C2=A0

I no longer write code although I have written LOTS = of code for lots of systems for nearly 20 years that have run in the real w= orld for decades (there's still Nortel DMS cranking away out there).=C2= =A0 =C2=A0And, while I write specs, I do work very closely with those implementing the specs and I don't write specs for = things that aren't being considered as potential products/real systems.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I ask lots of questions when I'm working with those codin= g, so I'm confident folks do understand what it is they're implementing.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I worked with=C2=A0 contractors implementing ACM= E for one company a few years back and I knew they didn't understand be= cause I could see the questions they=C2=A0were asking in the open forums an= d I knew they were misinterpreting those responses.=C2=A0 I found the place in the Let's Encrypt code where they needed to hook in the n= ew code and I was almost at the point of writing the code myself over a wee= kend with my=C2=A0son, but it was their job.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

There's far more value in my being able to educa= te the folks coding, provide architectural feedback, talk to vendors to ens= ure that what they are providing meets the requirements (security in partic= ular) as well as testing the system after it's been coded and providing feedback.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And, in my experie= nce, the coding is the easy part. When I was a developer, that was the fun = part - the reward after you got all the required documentation written.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0And, I always develop specs from the perspective that a developer needs to use that as the basis for writing code, so I kno= w how I would want things written to facilitate that process.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So, your point about people writing specs not being = the ones writing code is a little judgemental.=C2=A0 I would say "elit= ist" and that's how it comes off, but I don't consider those t= hat write code necessarily to be the elite.=C2=A0 But, it is this notion that there are certain types of people at IETF that are amongst the= elite that is one of the issues around inclusion.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

Mary.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hannes,

On 23-Feb-21 22:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Fernando,
>
> I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that i= ncreasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number of= participants who are not interested to write any code*.

Can you justify "increasing number"? I don't mean compared to= 1986, but compared (for example) to 2011? As long as I can remember, peopl= e have been concerned about participants who are "goers" rather t= han "doers" at meetings, and you seem to be adding a further concern, "doers" whose action is to write text rather than write= code.

Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at a= ll but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another c= ategory of "doers".

I'd like to see some actual facts about these various categories of &qu= ot;doers". What % were they 10 or 20 years ago, and what % are they no= w? Has the hackathon changed the numbers? Etc.

> I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when talking= about the new leadership election cycles.

Yes, it should be on NomCom's radar. The need for enough ops people has= long been understood, but recent development experience is also relevant.<= br>
> Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impressio= n to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering= organization.

Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I thi= nk there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/= BCP205 back to the WG.

> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> *: I am also including authors of protocol specifications that do not = implement their own specifications.

That's a bit cruel. In larger organisations, it might be totally infeas= ible. But again, RFC7942 is our friend.

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 1:07 AM
> To: 'ietf@ietf.= org' <ietf@ie= tf.org>; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Keith Moore <moore@network-here= tics.com>
> Subject: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
>
> Folks,
>
> We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusivenes= s in the IETF".
>
> The I-D is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt >
> We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg (= https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the brea= dth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it where necessary/applicable/desired.
>
> As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the= surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start = to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Regards,
> --
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail: fgo= nt@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
>
>
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are c= onfidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipie= nt, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents t= o any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>

--
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IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id heIn9wZYmbn8 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7ACB3A17C3 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse94.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.94] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx134.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lExAQ-000aS6-Vk for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:37:41 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Dm1mb57Vqz2tV for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lExAN-0004Lg-JM for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:37:35 -0800 Received: (qmail 27146 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2021 16:37:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.106]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.109]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 24 Feb 2021 16:37:34 -0000 To: Vittorio Bertola , Hannes Tschofenig Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:37:34 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E8F173C446F9EC02C21384A9" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.94 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiqu1p3 cR9WW3gnzaZbpH3P2L/KLMyCg2dNZJAK3gbNiIydSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVQr9pO7va7XoFGKcupVzHRZotTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WWLIlhV wP2HQYvX8wxRXZtkkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn 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X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:37:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E8F173C446F9EC02C21384A9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/24/2021 1:39 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 24/02/2021 08:22 Hannes Tschofenig ha >> scritto: >> >> The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a responsibility >> of the document authors. It is a culture that has to cut across the >> organization, from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, there >> are disincentives to work on code as a document author. >> >> I want people with hands-on experience in the leadership of an >> engineering organization. For me this is a form of diversity. >> > The question is whether you *only* (mostly) want coders in the > leadership, or whether you *also* want coders in the leadership. This > makes a lot of difference in evaluating your position. Vittorio, The word "coder" is a somewhat insulting way to refer to software developers. Please stop. This vocabulary implies a hierarchy in which the specifications are developed by superior specification writers, then handed down to subservient "coders" who merely translate it into computer code. This is a very reductive way of considering software development. For example, it completely discards the interaction between implementation, deployment, testing, and user feedback. In the IETF, the writing of good specifications has always benefited from such interactions, and we want that to continue. -- Christian Huitema --------------E8F173C446F9EC02C21384A9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On 2/24/2021 1:39 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

Il 24/02/2021 08:22 Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@arm.com> ha scritto:

The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a responsibility of the document authors. It is a culture that has to cut across the organization, from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, there are disincentives to work on code as a document author.

I want people with hands-on experience in the leadership of an engineering organization. For me this is a form of diversity.

The question is whether you *only* (mostly) want coders in the leadership, or whether you *also* want coders in the leadership. This makes a lot of difference in evaluating your position.

Vittorio,

The word "coder" is a somewhat insulting way to refer to software developers. Please stop. This vocabulary implies a hierarchy in which the specifications are developed by superior specification writers, then handed down to subservient "coders" who merely translate it into computer code. This is a very reductive way of considering software development. For example, it completely discards the interaction between implementation, deployment, testing, and user feedback. In the IETF, the writing of good specifications has always benefited from such interactions, and we want that to continue.

-- Christian Huitema

--------------E8F173C446F9EC02C21384A9-- From nobody Wed Feb 24 08:39:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E993A17D0 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:39:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JHSYIVJOabjA for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 733143A17C6 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D6090280192; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:38:52 +0000 (UTC) To: Vittorio Bertola , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1743187634.63488.1614092848261@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:38:39 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1743187634.63488.1614092848261@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:39:35 -0000 Hello, Vittorio, Thanks a lot for your comments! In-line... On 23/2/21 12:07, Vittorio Bertola wrote: [,,,] > > Thanks for starting this. I also wanted to write something, but could > not find the time. I wanted to work on a description of factors and > dimensions that could make people feel out of place in an > organization, both in professional and social terms, or make it > harder to participate. I think that the right approach is first to > document all the potential issues, and then to discuss whether each > of them can and should be addressed (in some cases, there might even > be groups that you do not want to include, but that's a separate > discussion from documenting that they exist). Agreed. While our document has some side-note possible suggestions (i.e., "this is very doable"), the focus of the document -- at least so far -- is in the problem statement, rather than solutions. SOlutions would most likely require their own documents. [....] > I only got as far as writing down a bullet list of points, so I'm > sharing it - you covered part of it already, not everything. I'll be > happy to contribute text if I have time, but in the meantime, here it > is: [...] The list you've provided is really good. Thanks! We'll start incorporating all the items you've suggested such that they make it into -01. If you have further thoughts or text, they will be very welcome. And, in any case, we'll send a heads-up to the up-coming rev (before posting) such that you can verify if there's anything we've misunderstood or got wrong. Thanks a lot! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 24 09:14:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7C93A09ED; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 09:14:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sut0KQ4jjnvT; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 09:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-f182.google.com (mail-yb1-f182.google.com [209.85.219.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD1A13A09F5; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 09:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f182.google.com with SMTP id l8so2528470ybe.12; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 09:14:17 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=c/xHVhZ9eONT5mqzjiQ05t1DXUo3wdHfu7RqCs/Y0sA=; b=iA7zqUYNJZdY/+HvjFdKCIH2mKF0wjekrm+YVRyO92CeiQbGWaNpfYYy2ZA0LP4oE7 Eys5RYjupPm6rDn/U2isCu6ifuebB7p26rQAcIe9pfl1v8K2tNeff3JcU4PQNynkQoeP luT3BS4wa3H/AKPwfOn1REjuzpHTmj1jmsbg5aZtTjKsHW9mu3deK/c6EvC4kwCDAQxN OQtZgovrBRAeU2qYjsNrjZdRJG6/3BjMzp3idgefw96d3UqHNFeCwjP7mwcJ0c+P/kfs PJVFd6IxnYIaeU00jg+GtNsv893HAcVYCCs46/oWmg7sxPMkDnzeVwR4BPsMFhFf0JFN uigw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Mkcoh6UImR/Pbh3PBU4ABstRF8vDRU9ze5DZ+gvAQORuTMDqZ qTZhxRKn5QLPODH2mSLfMV60eOG2b5yLc9T8s1y4E+KrXys= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxUlaYxaNjzRUEyQjpcWD8AJBBEeDmAfsf7fo0715GQhFpevCjIn9cgqroyQBB8KH1vvHuotnBsweMvT/BdVDI= X-Received: by 2002:a25:aa6d:: with SMTP id s100mr52243508ybi.523.1614186856907; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 09:14:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 12:14:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: Christian Huitema Cc: Vittorio Bertola , Hannes Tschofenig , GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000035052605bc182a6f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:14:19 -0000 --00000000000035052605bc182a6f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 11:37 AM Christian Huitema wrote: > > On 2/24/2021 1:39 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > Il 24/02/2021 08:22 Hannes Tschofenig > ha scritto: > > The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a responsibility of the > document authors. It is a culture that has to cut across the organization, > from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, there are disincentives > to work on code as a document author. > > I want people with hands-on experience in the leadership of an engineering > organization. For me this is a form of diversity. > > The question is whether you *only* (mostly) want coders in the leadership, > or whether you *also* want coders in the leadership. This makes a lot of > difference in evaluating your position. > > Vittorio, > > The word "coder" is a somewhat insulting way to refer to software > developers. Please stop. This vocabulary implies a hierarchy in which the > specifications are developed by superior specification writers, then handed > down to subservient "coders" who merely translate it into computer code. > This is a very reductive way of considering software development. For > example, it completely discards the interaction between implementation, > deployment, testing, and user feedback. In the IETF, the writing of good > specifications has always benefited from such interactions, and we want > that to continue. > +1 I don't write much protocol code, I write synthesizers that write the code for me. I try to work at the highest level of abstraction possible. --00000000000035052605bc182a6f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 11:37 AM Christian Huitema = <huitema@huitema.net> wrot= e:
=20 =20 =20


On 2/24/2021 1:39 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

Il 24/02/2021 08:22 Hannes Tschofenig &l= t;hannes.tschofenig@arm.com> ha scritto:

The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a responsibility of the document authors. It is a culture that has to cut across the organization, from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, there are disincentives to work on code as a document author.

I want people with hands-on experience in the leadership of an engineering organization. For me this is a form of diversity.

The question is whether you *only* (mostly) want coders in the leadership, or whether you *also* want coders in the leadership. This makes a lot of difference in evaluating your position.

Vittorio,

The word "coder" is a somewhat insulting way to refer to s= oftware developers. Please stop. This vocabulary implies a hierarchy in which the specifications are developed by superior specification writers, then handed down to subservient "coders" who merel= y translate it into computer code. This is a very reductive way of considering software development. For example, it completely discards the interaction between implementation, deployment, testing, and user feedback. In the IETF, the writing of good specifications has always benefited from such interactions, and we want that to continue.

+1

I don't write much protocol=C2=A0code, I write synthesize= rs that write the code for me. I try to work at the highest level of abstra= ction possible.

=C2=A0
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Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:47:18 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:47:18 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Christian Huitema Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1370422257.75123.1614188838826@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_75121_2014605270.1614188838799" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:47:25 -0000 ------=_Part_75121_2014605270.1614188838799 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 24/02/2021 17:37 Christian Huitema ha scritto: > > Vittorio, > > The word "coder" is a somewhat insulting way to refer to software developers. Please stop. This vocabulary implies a hierarchy in which the specifications are developed by superior specification writers, then handed down to subservient "coders" who merely translate it into computer code. This is a very reductive way of considering software development. For example, it completely discards the interaction between implementation, deployment, testing, and user feedback. In the IETF, the writing of good specifications has always benefited from such interactions, and we want that to continue. > Of course (originally being a software writer myself, and still doing it as a hobby) this was not my intention, and personally I never heard any software developer complaining that "coder" is an insulting term. But if it is, I apologize for using it, and we should just add it to the list of problematic words, so that everyone is aware that it should not be used at the IETF. Then, I also suggest that the list is handed out to every new subscriber of any IETF mailing list, because this is not the first time that I use a perfectly normal term in my native language / environment and I find someone jumping up and taking the issue as an offense (the last time was with the term "militant", when chatting on this same issue). As a result, I am feeling like I should just stop participating in these discussions for fear of using the wrong choice of language and getting publicly shamed (and in my own culture, like in the Far East, in Arab cultures and elsewhere, "saving your face" in public is paramount). So, ironically, language correctness leads to self-censorship and exclusion. Now, while we are at it, I also note that sometimes there are extremely offensive terms in my culture that are being commonly used in this discussion. The main example is "race"; in Italy, in Germany(*) and in other European cultures, using the term "race" to refer to a subset of mankind, implying that more than one "human race" exists, or suggesting that there are "race issues" and "race diversities" to be considered, is considered outright racism. I was shocked the first time I saw the term used as a category, but then I realized that there was no intention to offend - just a different linguistic background - and I moved on. But if the principle is that nobody's sensitivity has to be offended, I think that we should definitely stop using the term "race" in this conversation or anywhere at the IETF. (*) e.g. see https://www.dw.com/en/dont-use-the-term-race-german-scientists-urge/a-50390582 -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_75121_2014605270.1614188838799 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 24/02/2021 17:37 Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> ha scritto:

Vittorio,

The word "coder" is a somewhat insulting way to refer to software developers. Please stop. This vocabulary implies a hierarchy in which the specifications are developed by superior specification writers, then handed down to subservient "coders" who merely translate it into computer code. This is a very reductive way of considering software development. For example, it completely discards the interaction between implementation, deployment, testing, and user feedback. In the IETF, the writing of good specifications has always benefited from such interactions, and we want that to continue.

Of course (originally being a software writer myself, and still doing it as a hobby) this was not my intention, and personally I never heard any software developer complaining that "coder" is an insulting term. But if it is, I apologize for using it, and we should just add it to the list of problematic words, so that everyone is aware that it should not be used at the IETF.

Then, I also suggest that the list is handed out to every new subscriber of any IETF mailing list, because this is not the first time that I use a perfectly normal term in my native language / environment and I find someone jumping up and taking the issue as an offense (the last time was with the term "militant", when chatting on this same issue).

As a result, I am feeling like I should just stop participating in these discussions for fear of using the wrong choice of language and getting publicly shamed (and in my own culture, like in the Far East, in Arab cultures and elsewhere, "saving your face" in public is paramount). So, ironically, language correctness leads to self-censorship and exclusion.

Now, while we are at it, I also note that sometimes there are extremely offensive terms in my culture that are being commonly used in this discussion. The main example is "race"; in Italy, in Germany(*) and in other European cultures, using the term "race" to refer to a subset of mankind, implying that more than one "human race" exists, or suggesting that there are "race issues" and "race diversities" to be considered, is considered outright racism. I was shocked the first time I saw the term used as a category, but then I realized that there was no intention to offend - just a different linguistic background - and I moved on.

But if the principle is that nobody's sensitivity has to be offended, I think that we should definitely stop using the term "race" in this conversation or anywhere at the IETF.


(*) e.g. see https://www.dw.com/en/dont-use-the-term-race-german-scientists-urge/a-50390582

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_75121_2014605270.1614188838799-- From nobody Wed Feb 24 10:07:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6E23A18DB; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:07:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ym5d828hr_39; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50A3B3A18D9; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1994728014B; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:07:06 +0000 (UTC) To: Vittorio Bertola , Christian Huitema Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <1370422257.75123.1614188838826@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:05:48 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1370422257.75123.1614188838826@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:07:17 -0000 On 24/2/21 14:47, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 24/02/2021 17:37 Christian Huitema ha scritto: >> >> Vittorio, >> >> The word "coder" is a somewhat insulting way to refer to software >> developers. Please stop. This vocabulary implies a hierarchy in which >> the specifications are developed by superior specification writers, >> then handed down to subservient "coders" who merely translate it into >> computer code. This is a very reductive way of considering software >> development. For example, it completely discards the interaction >> between implementation, deployment, testing, and user feedback. In the >> IETF, the writing of good specifications has always benefited from >> such interactions, and we want that to continue. >> > Of course (originally being a software writer myself, and still doing it > as a hobby) this was not my intention, and personally I never heard any > software developer complaining that "coder" is an insulting term. But if > it is, I apologize for using it, and we should just add it to the list > of problematic words, so that everyone is aware that it should not be > used at the IETF. I'd ask that participants be aware that a number of us speak English as a second language. So, while at times we might be aware that for some there might be differences (at times subtle) in the meaning of such words, other times we're not simply aware about them, or may overlook them (since English is not our native language). For instance, the word "coder" has no equivalent in Spanish (the equivalent would be "codificador", but you'd never use that for coder or programmer). So it shouldn't come as a surprise that a Spanish-speaking person uses "programmer" to refer to "coder", "software developer" or "programmer" (itself), or that somehow mixes up these words. The same probably applies to other languages. I guess following Postel's advice might be of use here. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 24 10:24:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921003A1927; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:24:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J630voGbgXoH; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71B513A1928; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9424E280145; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:24:01 +0000 (UTC) To: Vittorio Bertola , Christian Huitema Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <1370422257.75123.1614188838826@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <4cbaeed9-5691-04a6-5de2-d91769163e54@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:23:42 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1370422257.75123.1614188838826@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:24:13 -0000 Hello, Vittorio, On 24/2/21 14:47, Vittorio Bertola wrote: [....] > Then, I also suggest that the list is handed out to every new subscriber > of any IETF mailing list, because this is not the first time that I use > a perfectly normal term in my native language / environment and I find > someone jumping up and taking the issue as an offense (the last time was > with the term "militant", when chatting on this same issue). I couldn't agree more with you. Just to provide yet another example, last year it was argued on this list what greeting with "cheers" (as o¡in "bye") could also result offensive -- when I had always assumed that it was simply an informal and polite way of saying "bye". > As a result, I am feeling like I should just stop participating in these > discussions for fear of using the wrong choice of language and getting > publicly shamed (and in my own culture, like in the Far East, in Arab > cultures and elsewhere, "saving your face" in public is paramount). So, > ironically, language correctness leads to self-censorship and exclusion. Isn't there an implicit irony in expecting people from completely different cultures and origins, who do not speak the language natively, to speak their one's own language in a flawless manner, in the name of inclusiveness and diversity? The fact that people pick one language (out of many, regardless of how prominent or widespread it may be), remove a few words, and dare to call it "inclusive language", in a way, still amuses me. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 24 10:51:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8355F3A1958; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:51:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DMS3LKX9tj4M; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B1D63A19B3; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F2E6280192; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:51:34 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: Vittorio Bertola , Christian Huitema Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <1370422257.75123.1614188838826@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Message-ID: <99cb0ca8-ede1-5932-3944-9d7ce8ecc08d@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:51:23 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1370422257.75123.1614188838826@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:51:52 -0000 On 24/2/21 14:47, Vittorio Bertola wrote: [...] > > Now, while we are at it, I also note that sometimes there are extremely > offensive terms in my culture that are being commonly used in this > discussion. The main example is "race"; in Italy, in Germany(*) and in > other European cultures, using the term "race" to refer to a subset of > mankind, implying that more than one "human race" exists, or suggesting > that there are "race issues" and "race diversities" to be considered, is > considered outright racism. I was shocked the first time I saw the term > used as a category, but then I realized that there was no intention to > offend - just a different linguistic background - and I moved on. > > But if the principle is that nobody's sensitivity has to be offended, I > think that we should definitely stop using the term "race" in this > conversation or anywhere at the IETF. As noted, it seems to me that a lot of the discussion around language is how a specific group feels about a specific set of words, because of their own historical background...where the rest needs to learn about those cultural issues and adapt accordingly (probably without the same policy necessarily applying the other way around). I should also note that, if people are also concerned about historical background of words, I'm sure they should also be concerned about anything that contains a national symbol/flag or religious symbol (*). And in that light, there should also be a recommendation in that respect. (*) e.g., a simple rosary would be deemed as completely harmless in my place (I do wear one, although it's not visible), but it may certainly come across quite differently to e.g. people in some parts of Bosnia or Belfast (for obvious reasons... which I do understand... and which you don't need to go back a long time in history to understand). Inclusiveness and diversity seem to be way more complex than what some seem to imply, and it implies a lot more than cherry-picking on specific items that would make a group look "nice and following the trend". Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 24 13:29:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041ED3A1BDE; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:29:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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<27444663-f39a-4a05-8e5d-074ccb0ab2b1@www.fastmail.com> <233D58BF-EDC4-4C9C-80DF-7859BFF2D36E@cisco.com> <0108a2a2-844a-28fc-ca13-2745abed826a@digitaldissidents.org> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <6452d171-8a96-5ee8-5fbd-4ab9419b9573@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:05:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0108a2a2-844a-28fc-ca13-2745abed826a@digitaldissidents.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 01:05:30 -0000 On 2/24/21 10:59 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: > I understand the interest in quantification, and it might be useful in some cases, but I would like to underline that not everything is quantifiable in a meaningful way. +1.  thanks. From nobody Wed Feb 24 19:20:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE1D3A0DC6; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 66lkbNSGjy2l; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A9543A0DD4; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id m144so4427406qke.10; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/T17he2JsypbXDX+7bYW8XGdySQ22tYK3WjZsh5Avog=; b=EmZhrX/vszOMmn7M50h2RxT1NJgCxk83NoMc1oMQgn6l8L8kFLi+GpQkxb8yLcsNJf ZElN0RWLSc6+D2+yA7DKRw5O/9b4XYJGDn3ddmYl5660cKdIYMpRRTYIHrNrLpFG66tW gel479OAyC0iSdJEkoIs1g0tLSLbKwIrxqSoVxaemBDSTml8CEpOdPvI3KHHEilgUiV5 Wk4IhZwGIXMOYZ0UVil2WKGhIhWAg5xNePXzsVF2/4Y7MyP2qmKp9vhhWxKsMmFDvWVG E4YRCv7e8eN+dU8ZZC2VfYv6ScMs7qG+VqJg3Wzw/KTr+HopVJoSDs6IkOYArAt3B2QO QNJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/T17he2JsypbXDX+7bYW8XGdySQ22tYK3WjZsh5Avog=; b=ILp1NgVkq4ruD9VJGe3C0AJUqFLwmO+1R7yIwuyRTdBllTJp8s/ZIZxaT41/7EKA46 nkpVITeocSXHjnK1eQXHde16cJ5eJ6mr6tZrubJI3P4A0c10KnAzgYRyfjbgPRcTk29r XMy1Iv0wKLO9Teq8ab11bp95eTdQChuwXP+HCbp5+VY9o+w6+UVa4tBhzN3kPgt/LZif FnvtBXiS6JH8wOVBJyPHqhMa4hh3fwj2eOaQ5xsSDgIlpsJwffE4Nt9vcnUnzcZLyVRI 3RoBLggDlO6+d0mq089h+9HWMVTv9ilyRmH9g8Jc+8jer0YOn5oUFYTTWxu43z90/gUp RWjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530UcBicUHbiSqAfFBw8B/RegmWCIzL9HTVRODPgUsG5SJ4EtKAN 6Q/J4OH2j24K3KLOesOt1wJYbWjc+WeODQm970w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxiGZ+ZKT+1hulaF1pgcDUGREk69/8yNtFb+e0yE/D0XqQb9mafH+CDGMVkhHKi0BUPDMoxMETgJ9pEtWZ5+B4= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a183:: with SMTP id k125mr1067978qke.332.1614223231330; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:20:19 +1100 Message-ID: To: Dan Harkins Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 03:20:34 -0000 On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 1:22 AM Dan Harkins wrote: > > I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number of participants who are not interested to write any code*. > > That's a great point! One of the attractions (to me, at least) of the > IETF was > that it wasn't some guy with some slides and a story. It was someone > with an idea, > a reference implementation of the idea, and results of (partially) > deploying the > code and seeing what it did. That was very compelling. We learned things > from the > running code that actually helped improve the specification. We were doing > engineering! It's a very interesting comment, about 'not enough people writing the code'. Since I've joined the IETF I've been hearing people complaining about 'not enough operators here, where are they?' I'm a network engineer who has to deal with routers and switches running vendor's code and with endpoints running various OSes. So while I have some ideas of what improvements I need from a given protocol, I'd not be writing actual implementations, because I have no places to actually run it in the production. I'd rather collaborate with people who can write that code much faster and better than I would ever be able so I can run their code in production and provide some feedback from my operational experience. > Yes, there has been less and less a demand on running code (sadface > emoji) and > I share your worry. Not only are some participants not interested in > writing any > code, we are also coming up with work that does not require any code at all. Well, plenty of work in the Ops area is like that but I do not think it's a bad thing necessary. Are you saying we shouldn't be documenting best (and worst) practices? -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Feb 24 20:00:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D6F3A0F00; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:00:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=tenghardt.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KS2c30dXgZ6S; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hemio.de (mail.hemio.de [136.243.12.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 713DC3A0F35; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from user.client.invalid (localhost [136.243.12.180]) by mail.hemio.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0120AA; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 05:00:02 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=tenghardt.net; s=20170414; t=1614225605; bh=CC40o7Pyllzxm1fcVQ2TO1Qm5aS/pNR43L2Zymzpsg8=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DVca39dNe8HjDZ57oGz+yP1Y0A3E3DgEGqFFxKOrKWpEzfn83nwA+kY+Hsu9bGf6Y uJ5ApmB2KiGogMZNw4n5z/n/lde3tRtXD2Qld+UoX3u0qZRL75Jni4qG28uH6S8MnV 7zNBin8Mvj6zKaQISEx/UD5qu9kBN96MmeDg0k4/WZC1N9AIt2IP42QfgJvM/LgJaB LvWXx4095S4JytXrkmIbmIJhFvhNRrsTOrCwYDUekI4tT4RI5egqp80Pio/m5PkUlq gA2cKbG/I2iyioTbLwCD+CnVL4EqnU86WbUmKwh47LTdFGc2wVtJqJVbTEkVDCMDzq 7OryEM69kp0fw== To: Fernando Gont , Keith Moore References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> Cc: "'ietf@ietf.org'" , GENDISPATCH List From: Theresa Enghardt Message-ID: <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:59:59 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 04:00:10 -0000 Hi Fernando, Keith, On 2/22/21 4:07 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in > the IETF". > > The I-D is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt Thank you for this document. One perspective that I missed in this document is academia, as I have participated in the IETF as an academic for a few years. The document mentions "Universities" as an example of organizations for which IETF participation might not [be] attractive or feasible. I'm not sure I agree. Some benefits of participating in the IETF for researchers, PhD students, etc, potentially to be added to Section 4 as a separate group, include: - Getting feedback on your work, e.g., assumptions you may be making, things you may have overlooked, direction for future work - Input for your own teaching (learning about the IETF and its processes has very much enhanced discussions with my students) - Making industry connections, e.g., for joint projects - Professional networking, career advancement When it comes to attending IETF meetings, I think it's worth mentioning that they are sometimes co-located with ANRW, an academic workshop, and that a lot of IRTF meetings are taking place during the same week. Also, there are efforts in the IRTF, such as the IRTF research prize, which may help PhD students get an ROI for their IETF-related work, feedback, and the opportunity to attend an IETF meeting. Of course, a lot of the same structural problems that the draft mentions still apply to academics, and not all universities are "equal" (e.g., big/famous ones probably often have an easier time sending people than smaller ones). One specific example would be Economic Constraints, Section 9: Universities usually have a travel budget and they may also have rules on how much a hotel is allowed to cost per night. IETF hotels are usually, if not always, outside of that budget, and overflow hotels are, too. I've usually managed to find something in adequate distance, but it did feel a bit strange to be basically excluded from the "official" hotels. That's just my initial thoughts, and feel free to include them in the draft. Best, Theresa From nobody Wed Feb 24 20:27:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D043A10D6 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:27:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g5tSh_6gDt0H for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 592443A10D4 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id gm18so2740717pjb.1 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:27:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jjfYDejk3HIuUqBy9BolNBOmIvrDpifklDc/I0l05Os=; b=h3RNr+KMJh2og/snsgcafwqfn2u1hiW4j7C9EpGfh42/vca+djY+OyK2MX4lBidbpv P7AdM9vsehjv5Wq0XOuYAFqf+E3oYdOzDY01qasFor/OdbVMZuEG49wYZ6xL+gAOhcPT 7PIevrO3TA4ZX2w/Uuic2Khg8NiDdlNjqRx0AtLi4jDawpY4LwNiSGrKd9x5nh81saXL SCPVMdHffkr5v/ppQlu3PtjLtDd7bl6XLMXbU7kgqlVyGTwei237RqW1vziEbOe5rR8K 8R7Yd75Xlo9htN3eTvt4N0mTsTc/0fYiuy1YUAUbm7H945dYWJjCw9QAL1of0Tz0wBQz N+zQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jjfYDejk3HIuUqBy9BolNBOmIvrDpifklDc/I0l05Os=; b=lwWEz7tP3avep7K+TERP/0Ahm6OKSkjv5iDCPjy/27hzqTNWqNlcyzJwLfzuiL630K UiwIOLXNikoV5/o7C5hKdFyS0ZWqganGe4G7F41y7ywbuwP+EjUxzW4YOCTJ73agzmWz 1mTEwN1dIMb/kOpzUpKVWh9EWnv/OfGBcGjhl6XDHt8tqgHPHumZBRFT0LiL9Uqiq8/L wyQWRRmnA8JMQkb7aKO+NW+SILBjfNOlv/ROkXVkgz6vLvjor0kMd0zLIiP0B7gCMBqk LIrbi9j8MWYTYBNUdiKkFsx4vWCHJ4g4AQaDQ42NLthjNcen1UZGSmZBvY8rIIxN9+2x xiiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530n6fadp5FWPDSGmiCMEoQm5ylc4yy5p+6awJIItg//0Q2624ko aPcTQZ5wUYJ+16adQ70hCs9Lyog2eL3pFA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxsVbBewntHTPaMVZuLn2Nk1eZbQDK2GV+l9W5EAp7AJL9C/tw/vcxEdMpWfbO8AbE4VuGiDA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b292:: with SMTP id c18mr1357182pjr.134.1614227237224; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i8sm4343282pgn.94.2021.02.24.20.27.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:27:16 -0800 (PST) To: Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <50b72d89-ccbe-ad96-4724-c629ef2756ad@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:27:12 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50b72d89-ccbe-ad96-4724-c629ef2756ad@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 04:27:20 -0000 Incidentally, it would be very handy to have the TERM mailing list set up= soon, so that we have a well-defined discussion venue regardless of WG s= tatus. Regards Brian Carpenter On 23-Feb-21 08:47, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > This version looks good to me. >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 23-Feb-21 04:59, Sean Turner wrote: >> Here is some revised draft charter text. There are some edits in the = penultimate paragraph to address comments on list and the last paragraph = is new. There were also three suggestions I did not address: >> >> (3) comments about whether to leave in the "master/slave" and "blackli= st/whitelist" examples. Opinions, to me, seemed mixed on this suggestion = and the charter text is otherwise very abstract so, I thought, leaving th= em in gives context for external readers. >> >> (2) recommendation for a second deliverable -- I didn't really see muc= h support and it is not consistent with the gendispatch outcome. >> >> (3) recommendation to replace =E2=80=9CEffective=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9C= Inclusive" in the WG name. I didn't see much support and some people want= to spend time defining inclusive first. >> >> Cheers, >> spt >> >> -------- >> >> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >> ---- >> >> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qual= ity, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, u= se, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of = the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, cl= ear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are mo= st effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widely= accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >> >> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there= has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and i= n the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80=9C= master/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in techn= ical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on incl= usivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, th= ere is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from infor= mational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminology = in IETF documents.=20 >> >> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informatio= nal RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical wor= k produced by the IETF. The RFC will express general principles for judgi= ng when language is inclusive or exclusive. It will also point out potent= ially problematic terms and potential alternatives, or link to an updatea= ble resource containing such information. >> >> The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single d= eliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering inclu= sivity in the IETF. >> >> Milestones: >> >> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommendat= ions=20 >> >>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 15:39, Sean Turner wrote: >>> >>> Hi!, >>> >>> Here is some proposed charter text to address the terminology-related= WG. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> spt >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (TERM) >>> ---- >>> >>> The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high qua= lity, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, = use, and manage the Internet. As RFC 7322 explains, "The ultimate goal of= the RFC publication process is to produce documents that are readable, c= lear, consistent, and reasonably uniform." RFCs and Internet-drafts are m= ost effective when they use terminology that is clear, precise, and widel= y accessible to readers from varying backgrounds and cultures. >>> >>> In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, ther= e has been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and = in the technology industry about the use of certain terms (such as =E2=80= =9Cmaster/slave=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cblacklist/whitelist=E2=80=9D) in te= chnical documentation and whether those and other terms have effects on i= nclusivity. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic,= there is general agreement that the IETF community would benefit from in= formational recommendations about using effective and inclusive terminolo= gy in IETF documents.=20 >>> >>> The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informati= onal RFC containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical wo= rk produced by the IETF.=20 >>> >>> Milestones: >>> >>> July 2021: Adopt draft providing informational terminology recommenda= tions >> >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 24 20:36:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D143A1173; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:36:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6D9MPEIotoDg; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A4723A1172; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F396280170; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 04:36:27 +0000 (UTC) To: Theresa Enghardt , Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "'ietf@ietf.org'" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 01:35:51 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 04:36:45 -0000 Hello, Theresa, Thanks a lot for your comments! In-line... On 25/2/21 00:59, Theresa Enghardt wrote: [....] > > One perspective that I missed in this document is academia, as I have > participated in the IETF as an academic for a few years. > > The document mentions "Universities" as an example of organizations for > which IETF participation might not [be] attractive or feasible. I'm not > sure I agree. > > Some benefits of participating in the IETF for researchers, PhD > students, etc, potentially to be added to Section 4 as a separate group, > include: > > - Getting feedback on your work, e.g., assumptions you may be making, > things you may have overlooked, direction for future work > - Input for your own teaching (learning about the IETF and its processes > has very much enhanced discussions with my students) > - Making industry connections, e.g., for joint projects > - Professional networking, career advancement Probably part of the issue here is that our I-D talks about "participation", where we probably meant something along the lines of "active participation" or "making contributions to the IETF" -- e.g., reviewing documents, submitting Internet-Drafts, etc. What you describe does indeed seem beneficial, but in principle doesn't seem to necessarily contribute to the work of the IETF. -- but please do correct me if I'm missing something or miss-interpreting what you're saying... > When it comes to attending IETF meetings, I think it's worth mentioning > that they are sometimes co-located with ANRW, an academic workshop, and > that a lot of IRTF meetings are taking place during the same week. Also, > there are efforts in the IRTF, such as the IRTF research prize, which > may help PhD students get an ROI for their IETF-related work, feedback, > and the opportunity to attend an IETF meeting. We should certainly incorporate something along these lines -- I'll come back to you once we have crafted text along this lines. (of course, if you have specific text that you'd like to suggest, please do let us know!) FWIW, what you note is one of the motivations/arguments for e.g. introducing f2f meeting fee waivers -- since in such cases there could be people that might be able to attend the meeting (space/time-wise), but might not be able to do it as a result of the meeting fees. IIRC, netdev was also hosted next to the IETF meeting in the past. [...] > > One specific example would be Economic Constraints, Section 9: > Universities usually have a travel budget and they may also have rules > on how much a hotel is allowed to cost per night. IETF hotels are > usually, if not always, outside of that budget, and overflow hotels are, > too. I couldn't agree more. In fact, from our perspective this was actually assumed (!)... but we should definitely spell this out. (the same probably also applies to the list of "recommended restaurants" that somehow circulate in the attendee mailing-lists, as well as some interesting 90USD+/meal dinners that get organized during the week). > I've usually managed to find something in adequate distance, but it > did feel a bit strange to be basically excluded from the "official" hotels. Believe me that I know exactly what you mean. :-) Thanks a lot! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 24 21:23:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA06A3A12A4; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:23:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vClRL_55r8Ft; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:22:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77A363A129E; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:22:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QP2001ILKA77V@wwwlocal.goatley.com>; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 23:22:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QP2003NTK6VAP@trixy.bergandi.net>; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:20:56 -0800 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:22:53 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Jen Linkova Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210224] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 05:23:02 -0000 On 2/24/21 7:20 PM, Jen Linkova wrote: > Are you saying we shouldn't be documenting best (and worst) practices?   Huh?   I don't believe I have ever said that and I don't believe I have ever said anything even close to that.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Wed Feb 24 21:56:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B763A1390; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:56:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=tenghardt.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OWyPcX-79e7Y; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:56:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hemio.de (mail.hemio.de [136.243.12.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D6A23A138F; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:56:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from user.client.invalid (localhost [136.243.12.180]) by mail.hemio.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F0EBAA; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 06:56:32 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=tenghardt.net; s=20170414; t=1614232593; bh=IRK8wxGEDWnCEy9RY5Km9YnX+axO13Tzd327/GSiSW0=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=MYlO6LG4NJOmrRyBBjgnFZIvOxt2rYAOA2PUjmgOd5Lcv6qMBUNv5u7IxM0zrLpWL gJlVUwdZ4IjtTGSXgis6cPVu9unc22jcJ65N8IGW2JiGzRsPw+SmYNNgEwOW/gyF1r 3eKLVRynjBscsT95k2oN9sLMO8EHon8Q1j3tPIWe87jm8JLmAYNrzeYdi+qwwmTVSF cIF1afRTi44dDHHuPj0ZHSAYsEiNe4URxkGs04RizeJ7/iEhUGYA5pnZDM4TowXRyT qzMNERjN7+M0DJCzmQcHNBGVcGWoKMJ/WNXc7qFmi2aVKPAEBN9/pn2JByOmuoFvnm EA8DUOfuunWag== To: Fernando Gont , Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "'ietf@ietf.org'" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> From: Theresa Enghardt Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:56:30 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 05:56:40 -0000 Hi Fernando, See inline: On 24.02.21 20:35, Fernando Gont wrote: > On 25/2/21 00:59, Theresa Enghardt wrote: >> […] >> Some benefits of participating in the IETF for researchers, PhD >> students, etc, potentially to be added to Section 4 as a separate >> group, include: >> >> - Getting feedback on your work, e.g., assumptions you may be making, >> things you may have overlooked, direction for future work >> - Input for your own teaching (learning about the IETF and its >> processes has very much enhanced discussions with my students) >> - Making industry connections, e.g., for joint projects >> - Professional networking, career advancement > > Probably part of the issue here is that our I-D talks about > "participation", where we probably meant something along the lines of > "active participation" or "making contributions to the IETF" -- e.g., > reviewing documents, submitting Internet-Drafts, etc. > > What you describe does indeed seem beneficial, but in principle > doesn't seem to necessarily contribute to the work of the IETF. > >   -- but please do correct me if I'm missing something or > miss-interpreting what you're saying... I was talking about active participation, too. For example, if a researcher goes and presents their work at an IETF Working Group meeting, I would consider that an IETF contribution, e.g., that the Working Group can get ideas from. For instance, a few years ago, we have had several academics present their work in TAPS, and that was definitely a lot of helpful input. Not sure how common this style of contribution is, but I think it does happen especially when a smaller WG is in an "early stage" where they benefit from a lot of input and ideas. (Of course, a lot of work that is relevant to IETF Working Groups is getting presented at IRTF sessions, e.g., MAPRG, IRTF Open, or at ANRW. But I can understand if you consider these out of scope for your document.) Another way for academics to contribute is to implement (part of) a draft as an academic exercise, or have a student implement it as a project, and then give feedback to the Working Group. We have had multiple such implementations in TAPS. Even if the implementation is most likely not going to be widely deployed, and even if development may not continue beyond the duration of a project, it is still helpful input for the Working Group. And for the academic, it gives the implementer a relevant and interesting project to work on, the implementer gets some experience with IETF technology, and they get to make professional connections, which can result in further collaboration. Definitely a win-win, and something that I've seen happen at IETF hackathons. Moreover, academics may submit an idea as an Internet Draft just to get feedback on it. Even if maybe the draft will not make it all the way to an RFC, or some parts of the original draft may be taken out and become part of a different draft, etc, it can be a very valuable perspective for the academic. Again, I have seen this happen in TAPS. Finally, I liked reviewing drafts even as an academic, because it helped me understand current work better, which, again, may provide context and input for future research. Perhaps as an additional perspective, at ANRW 2018, Sharon Goldberg gave a brief presentation on why and how academics may want to participate in the IETF, see the first 10-15 minutes of this recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvZcMAcC_0 > […] > FWIW, what you note is one of the motivations/arguments for e.g. > introducing f2f meeting fee waivers -- since in such cases there could > be people that might be able to attend the meeting (space/time-wise), > but might not be able to do it as a result of the meeting fees. IIRC, > netdev was also hosted next to the IETF meeting in the past. Yes, definitely. Now maybe it would also be interesting to consider if the demographics of participants in the IRTF or in Netdev are substantially different from the participants in the IETF. > [...] >> >> One specific example would be Economic Constraints, Section 9: >> Universities usually have a travel budget and they may also have >> rules on how much a hotel is allowed to cost per night. IETF hotels >> are usually, if not always, outside of that budget, and overflow >> hotels are, too. > > I couldn't agree more. In fact, from our perspective this was actually > assumed (!)... but we should definitely spell this out.  (the same > probably also applies to the list of "recommended restaurants" that > somehow circulate in the attendee mailing-lists, as well as some > interesting 90USD+/meal dinners that get organized during the week). Agreed. I think it's a good idea to mention that the meeting fee is not the only economic barrier to participation, but often, flight and hotel are much more expensive. (Especially for students, for whom the meeting fee is reduced.) Best, Theresa From nobody Wed Feb 24 22:02:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A0C3A13D6 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:02:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ob4fzpXyZjp2 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1D233A13C8 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse507.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.253] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lF9ip-000fWG-ED for gendispatch@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 07:02:17 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DmMcc4pJRzLtB for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lF9ii-0007pU-HT for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:01:52 -0800 Received: (qmail 32667 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2021 06:01:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.106]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.109]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 25 Feb 2021 06:01:51 -0000 To: Theresa Enghardt , Fernando Gont , Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "'ietf@ietf.org'" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:01:50 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.253 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiqu3QJ fwT+oDPOBMB1nQQ3VodwGYjbvhzWX8Co+5c+eruaSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVQr9pO7va7XoFGKcupVzHRZotTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WX1KHe/ FVcvFYE7DSY4uAuvkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dj1kvSgT4G6Wgcnfwvu7dYrO Rw7UOyml+bil/3yy76oDb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKVv0wNAmy0z4NCWU5AbBg6tDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAljK9wargZFV6FsGq/UAbhti3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdla1uNT yinK8Rd71iIUbwCRGg0T8YvanGKUeRnNVGdg5OJRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5Z6hqASwOfbRziKDBc OzJKsxxHx5OlXOwSpUqAHfd6HCyN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 06:02:27 -0000 On 2/24/2021 9:56 PM, Theresa Enghardt wrote: > Another way for academics to contribute is to implement (part of) a > draft as an academic exercise, or have a student implement it as a > project, and then give feedback to the Working Group. We have had > multiple such implementations in TAPS. Even if the implementation is > most likely not going to be widely deployed, and even if development may > not continue beyond the duration of a project, it is still helpful input > for the Working Group. And for the academic, it gives the implementer a > relevant and interesting project to work on, the implementer gets some > experience with IETF technology, and they get to make professional > connections, which can result in further collaboration. Definitely a > win-win, and something that I've seen happen at IETF hackathons. Yes, there are many ways academics can contribute. Look for example at the work Robin Marx did on structured QUIC logs formats and visualization tools. Part of his PhD, but also a very valuable contribution to the working group, with many implementation standardizing on the log format that he proposed and running his tools. That was great. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Wed Feb 24 22:17:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7493A13D4; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:17:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MYkuX8O-N5D8; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D86B3A13D2; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23608280194; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 06:17:33 +0000 (UTC) To: Theresa Enghardt , Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "'ietf@ietf.org'" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 03:13:19 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 06:17:43 -0000 Hi, Theresa, On 25/2/21 02:56, Theresa Enghardt wrote: [...] >> >>   -- but please do correct me if I'm missing something or >> miss-interpreting what you're saying... > > I was talking about active participation, too. Oops, my bad. Thanks for the clarification! > For example, if a researcher goes and presents their work at an IETF > Working Group meeting, I would consider that an IETF contribution, e.g., Indeed it is. I thought you were implying meeting attendance, without necessarily contributing. -- my bad. > that the Working Group can get ideas from. For instance, a few years > ago, we have had several academics present their work in TAPS, and that > was definitely a lot of helpful input. Not sure how common this style of > contribution is, but I think it does happen especially when a smaller WG > is in an "early stage" where they benefit from a lot of input and ideas. > (Of course, a lot of work that is relevant to IETF Working Groups is > getting presented at IRTF sessions, e.g., MAPRG, IRTF Open, or at ANRW. > But I can understand if you consider these out of scope for your document.) I think what you describe is definitely within scope. That said, in my experienve, in many cases groups seem to receive points for peer-reviewed conference papers, but not for IRTF/IETF-style of participation, unfortunately. So making it to the IETF will typically be harder (in terms of funding) than e.g. attending to an IEEE or ACM conference. > Another way for academics to contribute is to implement (part of) a > draft as an academic exercise, or have a student implement it as a > project, and then give feedback to the Working Group. We have had > multiple such implementations in TAPS. Even if the implementation is > most likely not going to be widely deployed, and even if development may > not continue beyond the duration of a project, it is still helpful input > for the Working Group. And for the academic, it gives the implementer a > relevant and interesting project to work on, the implementer gets some > experience with IETF technology, and they get to make professional > connections, which can result in further collaboration. Definitely a > win-win, and something that I've seen happen at IETF hackathons. [...] This is all indeed very valid. I'll do my best to come up with text to incorporate this into our document (thanks, btw!). [....] >> […] >> FWIW, what you note is one of the motivations/arguments for e.g. >> introducing f2f meeting fee waivers -- since in such cases there could >> be people that might be able to attend the meeting (space/time-wise), >> but might not be able to do it as a result of the meeting fees. IIRC, >> netdev was also hosted next to the IETF meeting in the past. > > Yes, definitely. Now maybe it would also be interesting to consider if > the demographics of participants in the IRTF or in Netdev are > substantially different from the participants in the IETF. I'll check to see if there are any stats available for those. >> [...] >>> >>> One specific example would be Economic Constraints, Section 9: >>> Universities usually have a travel budget and they may also have >>> rules on how much a hotel is allowed to cost per night. IETF hotels >>> are usually, if not always, outside of that budget, and overflow >>> hotels are, too. >> >> I couldn't agree more. In fact, from our perspective this was actually >> assumed (!)... but we should definitely spell this out.  (the same >> probably also applies to the list of "recommended restaurants" that >> somehow circulate in the attendee mailing-lists, as well as some >> interesting 90USD+/meal dinners that get organized during the week). > > Agreed. I think it's a good idea to mention that the meeting fee is not > the only economic barrier to participation, but often, flight and hotel > are much more expensive. (Especially for students, for whom the meeting > fee is reduced.) Will try to spell these things out more clearly in the next rev. Thanks a lot for your comments! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 24 22:17:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC613A13D2; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:17:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZmJGa-BIr049; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 937FD3A13D3; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:f0e0:52b6:fa0e:8799]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 604572803C8; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 06:17:38 +0000 (UTC) To: Christian Huitema , Theresa Enghardt , Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "'ietf@ietf.org'" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3f234f25-0461-8192-9be9-35e13ebd4967@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 03:17:05 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 06:17:45 -0000 Hi, Christian, On 25/2/21 03:01, Christian Huitema wrote: > On 2/24/2021 9:56 PM, Theresa Enghardt wrote: > >> Another way for academics to contribute is to implement (part of) a >> draft as an academic exercise, or have a student implement it as a >> project, and then give feedback to the Working Group. We have had >> multiple such implementations in TAPS. Even if the implementation is >> most likely not going to be widely deployed, and even if development may >> not continue beyond the duration of a project, it is still helpful input >> for the Working Group. And for the academic, it gives the implementer a >> relevant and interesting project to work on, the implementer gets some >> experience with IETF technology, and they get to make professional >> connections, which can result in further collaboration. Definitely a >> win-win, and something that I've seen happen at IETF hackathons. > > Yes, there are many ways academics can contribute. Look for example at > the work Robin Marx did on structured QUIC logs formats and > visualization tools. Part of his PhD, but also a very valuable > contribution to the working group, with many implementation > standardizing on the log format that he proposed and running his tools. > That was great. FWIW, for the most part we were implying the extent to which Academia might e.g. fund participation. We'll certainly expand on this topic, since the discussion regarding Academia is certainly incomplete/inaccurate. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 00:15:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E58E3A14C8; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 00:15:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.1 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RAND_MKTG_HEADER=2.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=44BBsFzb; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=44BBsFzb Received: 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE963A1BC5; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 08:16:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=tenghardt.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sIyg09ujqUJM; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 08:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hemio.de (mail.hemio.de [136.243.12.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EFAD3A1BC4; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 08:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from user.client.invalid (localhost [136.243.12.180]) by mail.hemio.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6ACEAA; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:16:20 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=tenghardt.net; s=20170414; t=1614269782; bh=ntq3v2BcXq7AdjCszY9Xi/ZdXJu2i3Ukcvn8QcBkDHQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=fdZOpmoV0K1riVaIBIF0KvIsdHjhGbYz9RbNPQGD9cl8UUwj/lGAGgH3ARrVLbFhR vHUJg0kfIidPBcrs3kabv64c+XPAHoKW97YVkFyoRTeIXoUF2kV5OZy+n5Lc18yp1E lvb8DGAr+yeZSzpqTmAhEcgPsARA+MOmPg2I5fLnUOVNn/j+8b9Hg528ED4San+HCf oP/dBJiG6HPhRkcNgWcpUFEnprHk2vik985wnitTM32Fe78DmDP9zMeXwAzKRIkbpJ Z3O+mdzXMj6f6VjpGsoGvo2Juvjg+N1xhd1yntK2K6Ipx9sBJHY9OauqILos94SNRH boFEZiku2J6kA== To: Fernando Gont , Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List , "'ietf@ietf.org'" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> From: Theresa Enghardt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 08:16:16 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:16:26 -0000 Hi Fernando, On 2/24/21 10:13 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > […] > >> that the Working Group can get ideas from. For instance, a few years >> ago, we have had several academics present their work in TAPS, and that >> was definitely a lot of helpful input. Not sure how common this style of >> contribution is, but I think it does happen especially when a smaller WG >> is in an "early stage" where they benefit from a lot of input and ideas. >> (Of course, a lot of work that is relevant to IETF Working Groups is >> getting presented at IRTF sessions, e.g., MAPRG, IRTF Open, or at ANRW. >> But I can understand if you consider these out of scope for your >> document.) > > I think what you describe is definitely within scope. > > That said, in my experienve, in many cases groups seem to receive > points for peer-reviewed conference papers, but not for > IRTF/IETF-style of participation, unfortunately. So making it to the > IETF will typically be harder (in terms of funding) than e.g. > attending to an IEEE or ACM conference. That is true. With ANRW, you at least get to present a short paper or poster at a workshop, so that's a step in the right direction. Good point about publications. RFCs are publications, too, so there is definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. However, usually the entire process takes much longer than writing academic papers. And I'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to papers, but at least in the part that I know, I would say they're valued. I think some academic institutions explicitly value it if researchers give "input to practice", demonstrate the applicability of their work, etc. So that could be used as a reason for presenting at IETF meetings, too, though most academic institutions would not understand the difference between IETF and IRTF sessions. You're welcome and good luck with the next revision! 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c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1614274189; bh=rJSq5HqV9pCbUiSHkK/WVSZqW4hqCWgGK0RwRGZegkg=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=0Dg0oBJMOrDxeUQvKonzZkakGHYSZ+cmsEOnRU1NhF8GrLvuRyBbMRLhDK3VJI2F7 OV+MFbcFL+MrWIFpBwA2V5vyZtMr1TsePL08fvp740Grm1AW/LQcaHjcpoN80JLpZJ D0OGAAWz+49cxTIXa9WNFUnzkTKLBrOMb54Vs+XE= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D1086A70-8696-4EB5-8207-782F1185602D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:29:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Fernando Gont , Keith Moore , GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" To: Theresa Enghardt References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 520D56002CB.A232D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:30:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D1086A70-8696-4EB5-8207-782F1185602D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-2-25, at 18:16, Theresa Enghardt wrote: > That is true. With ANRW, you at least get to present a short paper or = poster at a workshop, so that's a step in the right direction. that was actually the main motivation for collocating ANRW always with = the IETF - typically, academics can justify conference and workshop = travel much more easily than standards travel. > Good point about publications. RFCs are publications, too, so there is = definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. However, = usually the entire process takes much longer than writing academic = papers. And I'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to = papers, but at least in the part that I know, I would say they're = valued. One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to = assign them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a = prerequisite to even recognizing RFCs as academic output. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_D1086A70-8696-4EB5-8207-782F1185602D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmA33owACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdpSw/9GD5SVPN7ZlVz+Ay5WMo+4rFcxftss/6yXFeAMansGfdMU6z88TYacl8i NBiwdJVemCJEFnKxwNceMBX+TTM3DED7+Faqv3WzDcBvVgO7HAVTGpPKOCETRi5Q TrzZTX88uBP6m0Eo97Pc0mAnaOK2nwk9xvQQi3fdBkoL4n1iW/J4gPdbMHLhZUS1 usjAgmKCvrwo8kba9uLAi3AUEQxQyZpWElInPS8KrCs3ST5o5jU/wAmasKJsid11 3xM7RaqBqs9FtNH/nfPoCNLPQYhYGhOnewgaLHo4e7mWMpDR0Wtm8oG3PK3SCpFP FMAnmMWcn7cJNufi8Fo4SrwAmp17mnrIuiiGjnbpZ9IU/DzHLv49ahnhUyy7icbK aQwHAd1sIZjw566sKfl+HNdjKkYrxadUDvbkKGA9mO+apfz2CPdty/K01cJiwXJG hKeZqd9lxQxWMRosiA7XAW74G1nSMV0tKtvc8ULVHdS48sNqPdbrdgM/kYH6nAMt gQLFX6NQxyUcl+HHQWdXL7Zw+usp5ArcmODXqM+wseI5/NxjzVWCbSgN6FG0Ufu7 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definitions=main-2102250137 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:59:12 -0000 PiA+IFRoZSB3b3JkICJjb2RlciIgaXMgYSBzb21ld2hhdCBpbnN1bHRpbmcgd2F5IHRvIHJlZmVy IHRvIHNvZnR3YXJlIGRldmVsb3BlcnMuIFBsZWFzZSBzdG9wLiBUaGlzIHZvY2FidWxhcnkgaW1w bGllcyBhIGhpZXJhcmNoeSBpbiB3aGljaCB0aGUgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbnMgYXJlIGRldmVsb3Bl ZCBieSBzdXBlcmlvciBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIHdyaXRlcnMsIHRoZW4gaGFuZGVkIGRvd24gdG8g c3Vic2VydmllbnQgImNvZGVycyIgd2hvIG1lcmVseSB0cmFuc2xhdGUgaXQgaW50byBjb21wdXRl ciBjb2RlLiBUaGlzIGlzIGEgdmVyeSByZWR1Y3RpdmUgd2F5IG9mIGNvbnNpZGVyaW5nIHNvZnR3 YXJlIGRldmVsb3BtZW50LiBGb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgaXQgY29tcGxldGVseSBkaXNjYXJkcyB0aGUg aW50ZXJhY3Rpb24gYmV0d2VlbiBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiwgZGVwbG95bWVudCwgdGVzdGluZywg 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_571CE875-6B1A-4D0C-84CC-1D43C0C52C6B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <546225FC-6698-4536-950A-BBBED5AF33C6@cooperw.in> References: <161427378193.24379.13303025567490566787@ietfa.amsl.com> To: GENDISPATCH List Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:15:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Fwd: Request to Charter a New Working Group: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:15:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_571CE875-6B1A-4D0C-84CC-1D43C0C52C6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FYI. The charter text in the datatracker matches the last version Sean = circulated on the list. Alissa > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: IESG Secretary > Subject: Request to Charter a New Working Group: Effective Terminology = in IETF Documents (term) > Date: February 25, 2021 at 12:23:02 PM EST > To: "IETF Announcement List" > Cc: terminology@ietf.org > Reply-To: iesg@ietf.org >=20 > The IESG has received a request to charter a new working group,=20 > "Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term)." The proposed = charter,=20 > which is a work in progress, can be found here: >=20 > >=20 > The charter will be discussed on the mailing=20 > list, which can be subscribed to here: >=20 > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --Apple-Mail=_571CE875-6B1A-4D0C-84CC-1D43C0C52C6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii FYI. = The charter text in the datatracker matches the last version Sean = circulated on the list.

Alissa

Begin forwarded = message:

From: = IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: = Request to = Charter a New Working Group: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents = (term)
Date: = February 25, 2021 at 12:23:02 = PM EST
To: = "IETF Announcement List" <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: terminology@ietf.org
Reply-To: = iesg@ietf.org

The IESG has received a = request to charter a new working group,
"Effective = Terminology in IETF Documents (term)." The proposed charter,
which is a work in progress, can be found here:

<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/>

The charter will be discussed on the <terminology@ietf.org> mailing
list, = which can be subscribed to here:

<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology>

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YHT2MZF52unb for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8BA43A1D84 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7DED7F154D; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:37:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2UEB70VNKryp; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:36:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.16.1.27] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E422D7F14BF; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:36:43 -0600 (CST) From: Pete Resnick To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Sean Turner , GENDISPATCH List Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:36:41 -0600 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5769) Message-ID: <2197229E-B6E7-4194-9BCF-0077E8855456@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: References: <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <50b72d89-ccbe-ad96-4724-c629ef2756ad@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] New List (Was: revised) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:37:11 -0000 On 24 Feb 2021, at 22:27, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Incidentally, it would be very handy to have the TERM mailing list set > up soon, so that we have a well-defined discussion venue regardless of > WG status. The list is set up and functioning: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology See Alissa's announcement: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/WJb7Uv8XWa8BNQOFPOQzLlltO1g pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Thu Feb 25 11:14:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBC93A1F1F; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:14:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ar3xbPvoX-D; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 558093A1EDB; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7739728049A; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:13:58 +0000 (UTC) To: Andrew Campling , Dominique Lazanski , Bron Gondwana , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:54:32 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:14:22 -0000 On 25/2/21 14:39, Andrew Campling wrote: [...] > >> FWIW, we have already started to work on a revision of the draft >> (working copy at: > https://github.com/fgont/diversity/blob/main/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-01.txt), > [....] > > > This made me smile as GitHub is itself an excellent example of a > tool being a barrier to entry for new participants. Note: I'm using github just as a file repository. I don't request or expect people to create an account, or send pull requests. And where certainly *not* using github as an issue tracker. > I've been using word processors since the early '80s (WordStar back in > the day), don't understand why anyone would opt to use a different > tool to write a document. I know that this point of view will not be > accepted by many current IETF participants but it seems particularly > perverse to use a software development tool to write documents when > there are many widely available options that are far better suited to > the task (many of which support collaborative writing). FWIW, we're editing the xml source with simple text editors (Linux gedit in my case), and then processing it with the xml2rfc tool. So far, we're bouncing the text among co-authors, changes are applied, and then git is essentially used as a simple e.g. ftp alternative -- that's it. And, since you've raised it: I personally agree that requiring the use of git/github does represent yet another barrier. > If the intent is to broaden participation by people from different > disciplines then I'd urge the use of more commonly used tools > wherever possible. I might as well upload the document via ftp/sftp, and subsequently provide an URL. git/gihub was simply easier. But in no way we require or even expect the reader to use git/github. (I do understand that other folks or wgs do... but that's not the case for this document). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 11:14:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7743A1F45; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:14:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NpJDiFdQnVXD; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DA0B3A1EEF; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:14:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 31CCB28062B; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:14:02 +0000 (UTC) To: Lars Eggert , Theresa Enghardt Cc: Keith Moore , GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <6006aa81-613d-04ea-4666-c7f3eaa4f63b@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:00:42 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:14:27 -0000 On 25/2/21 14:29, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-2-25, at 18:16, Theresa Enghardt wrote: >> That is true. With ANRW, you at least get to present a short paper or poster at a workshop, so that's a step in the right direction. > > that was actually the main motivation for collocating ANRW always with the IETF - typically, academics can justify conference and workshop travel much more easily than standards travel. That's certainly interesting. We'll add a note about this along with Theresa's other comments. >> Good point about publications. RFCs are publications, too, so there is definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. However, usually the entire process takes much longer than writing academic papers. And I'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to papers, but at least in the part that I know, I would say they're valued. > > One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to assign them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a prerequisite to even recognizing RFCs as academic output. Was the rationale documented anywhere? (since this might be of value to note/reference, along with your other note above). Thanks! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 11:24:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630353A1ED5; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:24:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9WAwrp0gedbj; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 415B13A1E98; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.32) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:24:58 -0000 PiAgICBBbmQsIHNpbmNlIHlvdSd2ZSByYWlzZWQgaXQ6IEkgcGVyc29uYWxseSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0 IHJlcXVpcmluZyB0aGUgdXNlIA0KICAgIG9mIGdpdC9naXRodWIgZG9lcyByZXByZXNlbnQgeWV0 IGFub3RoZXIgYmFycmllci4NCg0KTm90aGluZyByZXF1aXJlcyBhbnlvbmUgdG8gdXNlIEdpdCBv ciBHaXRIdWIuDQoNCk9uIHRoZSBvdGhlciBoYW5kLCBtYW55IChtaWxsaW9ucykgb2YgcGVvcGxl IGRvLCBwZW9wbGUgd2hvIG9mdGVuIHdyaXRlIG9wZW4gc291cmNlIGNvZGUsIGFuZCB3ZSB3YW50 IHRvIGVuZ2FnZSB3aXRoIHRoYXQgY29tbXVuaXR5LiBBcyBzZWVtcyBjb21tb24gZm9yIHRoZSBJ RVRGLCBpdCdzIHVwIHRvIHRoZSBXRyB0byBkZWNpZGUuDQoNCiANCg0K From nobody Thu Feb 25 11:32:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A574F3A1EE0 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:32:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lqkk_43WGCDk for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB37E3A1EE5 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:32:41 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> <6006aa81-613d-04ea-4666-c7f3eaa4f63b@si6networks.com> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <2371ddc4-51d0-523c-9fea-d98e9dd0df7a@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:32:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6006aa81-613d-04ea-4666-c7f3eaa4f63b@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.greenhost.nl X-Scan-Signature: ba572e8a3bde05b4b19613c12a9e49fc Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:32:45 -0000 On 25-02-2021 19:00, Fernando Gont wrote: > On 25/2/21 14:29, Lars Eggert wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On 2021-2-25, at 18:16, Theresa Enghardt wrote: >>> That is true. With ANRW, you at least get to present a short paper or poster at a workshop, so that's a step in the right direction. >> >> that was actually the main motivation for collocating ANRW always with the IETF - typically, academics can justify conference and workshop travel much more easily than standards travel. > > That's certainly interesting. We'll add a note about this along with Theresa's other comments. > > > > >>> Good point about publications. RFCs are publications, too, so there is definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. However, usually the entire process takes much longer than writing academic papers. And I'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to papers, but at least in the part that I know, I would say they're valued. >> >> One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to assign them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a prerequisite to even recognizing RFCs as academic output. > > Was the rationale documented anywhere?  (since this might be of value to note/reference, along with your other note above). This piece is also relevant in this discussion: http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2010/January/1672308-1672315.pdf Best, Niels > > Thanks! > > Regards, -- Niels ten Oever, PhD Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of Amsterdam Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 Read my dissertation 'Wired Norms' here: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/50781961/Thesis.pdf From nobody Thu Feb 25 11:37:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87283A1EFD; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:37:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E6tYh0n0Ha0C; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DEB23A1EFC; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C291528049A; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:37:41 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , Andrew Campling , Dominique Lazanski , Bron Gondwana , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:34:41 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:37:50 -0000 On 25/2/21 16:24, Salz, Rich wrote: >> And, since you've raised it: I personally agree that requiring the >> use > of git/github does represent yet another barrier. > > Nothing requires anyone to use Git or GitHub. If a WG somewhat requires use of github, then the barrier is there. > On the other hand, many (millions) of people do, people who often > write open source code, and we want to engage with that community. My take is that engaging the open source community has more to do with lowering the barrier (including the economic barrier), and taking their input seriously, than with crafting documents with the tools said community usually employs when crafting code. Similarly, to the extent that has been possible, I've tried to engage them asking for specific questions or trying to produce patches for their projects -- which tends to work better in terms of engaging them than "please look at my draft/spec... it's on gihub, btw". Just my two cents, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 11:38:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8253C3A1F02 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:38:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aRpAFIVMEByZ for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE36D3A1EFF for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6CED7F37E0 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:38:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bts1ORcjv0Q6 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:38:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.16.1.27] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E04ADD7F37C6 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:38:44 -0600 (CST) From: Pete Resnick To: GENDISPATCH List Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:38:44 -0600 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5769) Message-ID: <4C07C2F8-F12A-4F2D-84D8-23B202AF042B@episteme.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Please take terminology discussion to newly created list X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:38:50 -0000 Greetings all, As you saw from Alissa's announcement, the new terminology list is set up and ready to go: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology Please move all terminology-related discussions (on the proposed charter, on the assorted documents currently out there, on general issues regarding terminology) over to that list. We understand that some of the issues are intertwined with Fernando and Keith's proposal that is going to be discussed at IETF 110, so we expect there might be some cross-over discussions, but please try to fix your To and Cc fields as appropriate when replying to messages. 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Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:48:54 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 11PJZBxw016372; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:48:53 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.118]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com with ESMTP id 36txn4r9q9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:48:53 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.119) by ustx2ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.124) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:48:52 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.010; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:48:52 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Thread-Index: AQHXCXgXoQVfadhZ+E21nk+elDffBqplh9IAgABCsgCAAAYtgIADu0gAgAAENgD//8VnAIAAVpSA//+wJQA= Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:48:52 +0000 Message-ID: <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.46.21021202 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.33) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint7 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:48:56 -0000 PiAgICBJZiBhIFdHIHNvbWV3aGF0IHJlcXVpcmVzIHVzZSBvZiBnaXRodWIsIHRoZW4gdGhlIGJh cnJpZXIgaXMgdGhlcmUuDQoNClNpbmNlIG5vIHBlcnNvbiwgb3Igbm8gV0csIGhhcyBpbmZpbml0 ZSByZXNvdXJjZXMsIGFsbW9zdCBhbnkgYXR0ZW1wdHMgdG8gZW5nYWdlIHNvbWUgcGVvcGxlIG1l YW4gdGhhdCBzb21lIG90aGVycyBmZWVsIGxlZnQgb3V0LiAgKE5vdGUgdGhlIGFsbW9zdCkNCg0K VGhlIElFVEYgc3RpbGwgbWFpbnRhaW5zIHRoYXQgbm8gbWF0dGVyIGhvdyBnaXQvR2l0SHViIGFy ZSB1c2VkLCB0aGUgY2xhc3NpYyBtZWNoYW5pc21zIG9mIGVtYWlsLCBldGMuLCBzdGlsbCBtdXN0 IGJlIHVzZWQuIERvZXMgdGhhdCBtZWFuIHNvbWUgY29udmVyc2F0aW9ucyBhcmVuJ3QgZnVsbHkg ZGlzY3Vzc2VkIG9uIHRoZSBlbWFpbCwgYW5kIHNvbWUgcGVvcGxlIGZlZWwgbGVmdCBvdXQ/IFll cy4gIFNvbWUgcGVvcGxlIGFsc28gZGlzbGlrZSBNSU1FIGVtYWlsLCBhbmQgdGhlIG1vdmluZyBh d2F5IGZyb20gSVB2NCBhbmQgRlRQLiAgVGhpbmdzIGNoYW5nZS4gIEZvciBteXNlbGYsIEkgYW0g anVzdCBnbGFkIHRoYXQgd2UncmUgbm90IGNvbW1lbnRpbmcgb24gdGhpbmdzIHZpYSBTTVMuICBJ IGFtIHRlbXB0ZWQgdG8gY3JlYXRlIGFuIE9ubHlGYW5zIGFjY291bnQgZm9yIEFDTUUgb3IgSFRU UEFQSSwgdGhvLiA6KQ0KDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Feb 25 12:12:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59F73A1FAD; 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Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:12:25 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:09:43 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:12:43 -0000 On 25/2/21 16:48, Salz, Rich wrote: >> If a WG somewhat requires use of github, then the barrier is >> there. > > Since no person, or no WG, has infinite resources, almost any > attempts to engage some people mean that some others feel left out. > (Note the almost) Why do you think git/github will engage somebody that would otherwise not be engaged? > The IETF still maintains that no matter how git/GitHub are used, the > classic mechanisms of email, etc., still must be used. When discussions end up spread over gihub and email lists, that's not a nice feature, IMO. > Does that mean > some conversations aren't fully discussed on the email, and some > people feel left out? Yes. Some people also dislike MIME email, I use the least common denominator: plain text email. Still most email clients will mangle patches sent via email -- which happens to be the normal workflow some projects such as the linux kernel and openbsd -- so at least for those things you'll probably resort to mutt or the like. > and > the moving away from IPv4 and FTP. Things change. For myself, I am > just glad that we're not commenting on things via SMS. I am tempted > to create an OnlyFans account for ACME or HTTPAPI, tho. :) My take is: if the tool improves your workflow, go for it. If it will get in the way, don't. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 12:18:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D843A1F61; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:18:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RR5RNkWy-Rxi; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30CB83A1F5B; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:17:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.31) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:18:01 -0000 PiAgICBXaHkgZG8geW91IHRoaW5rIGdpdC9naXRodWIgd2lsbCBlbmdhZ2Ugc29tZWJvZHkgdGhh dCB3b3VsZCBvdGhlcndpc2UgDQogICAgbm90IGJlIGVuZ2FnZWQ/DQoNCkRvbid0IGtub3cgZm9y IHN1cmUuICBIYXZlIHNvbWUgZ3Vlc3Nlcy4gIEJ1dCB0aGF0IGRvZXNuJ3Qgc2VlbSBwcm9kdWN0 aXZlIChsaWtlIHRoZSBPQVVUSCB0aHJlYWRzKS4NCg0KPiAgICBNeSB0YWtlIGlzOiBpZiB0aGUg dG9vbCBpbXByb3ZlcyB5b3VyIHdvcmtmbG93LCBnbyBmb3IgaXQuIElmIGl0IHdpbGwgDQogICAg Z2V0IGluIHRoZSB3YXksIGRvbid0Lg0KDQpBbmQgbXkgcG9pbnQgaXMgdGhhdCBpbXByb3ZlbWVu dCBmb3Igc29tZSBpcyBiYWQgZm9yIG90aGVycyBhbmQgdGhhdCdzIHRoZSB3YXkgdGhpbmdzIGFy ZS4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Feb 25 12:27:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922B73A05AC; 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Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:26:46 +0100 (CET) To: "Salz, Rich" , Fernando Gont , Andrew Campling , Dominique Lazanski , Bron Gondwana , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: <4abd6b0f-80e9-594f-242b-59f018a041ab@petit-huguenin.org> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:26:44 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:26:53 -0000 On 2/25/21 11:24 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> And, since you've raised it: I personally agree that requiring the use > of git/github does represent yet another barrier. > > Nothing requires anyone to use Git or GitHub. > > On the other hand, many (millions) of people do, people who often write open source code, and we want to engage with that community. As seems common for the IETF, it's up to the WG to decide. Really, we engaged with the open source community by starting using GitHub? What I saw is the opposite: Open source developers were already working with the IETF, and some of them shoved GitHub down our throats. This is not the IETF trying to be inclusive, this is developers trying to tell us how to do our job. And yes, I am a coder and git and vim is where I spend most of my professional time. -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Thu Feb 25 12:31:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030063A0597; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:31:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CJRQ8t_ikSKe; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4442E3A07EB; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6F9AA28062B; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:31:09 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:30:55 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:31:19 -0000 On 25/2/21 17:17, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Why do you think git/github will engage somebody that would otherwise > not be engaged? > > Don't know for sure. Have some guesses. This is not the first "proposal" associated with diversity (in this case, engagin open source developers) with not much of a rationale behind it :-) , so to speak... -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 12:40:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA3A3A089C; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:40:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJWc7Y-sYHO8; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3AAC3A0888; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.32) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:40:26 -0000 PiAgICBUaGlzIGlzIG5vdCB0aGUgZmlyc3QgInByb3Bvc2FsIiBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIHdpdGggZGl2 ZXJzaXR5IChpbiB0aGlzIA0KICAgIGNhc2UsIGVuZ2FnaW4gb3BlbiBzb3VyY2UgZGV2ZWxvcGVy cykgd2l0aCBub3QgbXVjaCBvZiBhIHJhdGlvbmFsZSANCiAgICBiZWhpbmQgaXQgOi0pICwgc28g dG8gc3BlYWsuLi4NCg0KVGhlIHJhdGlvbmFsZSBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBtaWxsaW9ucyBv ZiBwZW9wbGUgdXNpbmcgR2l0SHViLCBhbmQgaWYgZG8gZG9jdW1lbnRzIHdpdGggdGhlaXIgdG9v bGNoYWluLCB3ZSB3aWxsIGdldCBtb3JlIGZlZWRiYWNrIGZyb20gZGV2ZWxvcGVycyB0aGFuIGlm IHdlIHRyaWVkIHRvIGRyYXcgdGhlbSBpbnRvIG91ciB0b29sY2hhaW4uICBJIGRpZG4ndCByZWFs aXplIHRoYXQgd2FzIHdoYXQgeW91IHdlcmUgYXNraW5nIG1lLiAgVGhpcyByYXRpb25hbGUgd2Fz IHN0YXRlZCBtdWx0aXBsZSB0aW1lcyBpbiB0aGUgR0lUIFdHLg0KDQpNYXJjOg0KPiBXaGF0IEkg c2F3IGlzIHRoZSBvcHBvc2l0ZTogIE9wZW4gc291cmNlIGRldmVsb3BlcnMgd2VyZSBhbHJlYWR5 IHdvcmtpbmcgd2l0aCB0aGUgSUVURiwgYW5kIHNvbWUgb2YgdGhlbSBzaG92ZWQgR2l0SHViIGRv d24gb3VyIHRocm9hdHMuIA0KDQpJbnRlcmVzdGluZyB2aWV3cG9pbnQuICBEaWQgeW91IGF0dGVu ZCBhbnkgb2YgdGhlIFdHIG1lZXRpbmdzPyAgSSBkaWRuJ3Qgc2VlIHlvdXIgbmFtZSBpbiB0aGUg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IGFyY2hpdmVzLg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Feb 25 12:45:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774BE3A08B0; 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Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:45:44 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: "Salz, Rich" , Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> Message-ID: <5d0ac43c-44a1-34be-6808-2cef26d271d4@petit-huguenin.org> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:45:43 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:45:56 -0000 On 2/25/21 12:40 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> This is not the first "proposal" associated with diversity (in this > case, engagin open source developers) with not much of a rationale > behind it :-) , so to speak... > > The rationale is that there are millions of people using GitHub, and if do documents with their toolchain, we will get more feedback from developers than if we tried to draw them into our toolchain. I didn't realize that was what you were asking me. This rationale was stated multiple times in the GIT WG. > > Marc: >> What I saw is the opposite: Open source developers were already working with the IETF, and some of them shoved GitHub down our throats. > > Interesting viewpoint. Did you attend any of the WG meetings? I didn't see your name in the mailing list archives. Of the gendispatch WG meetings? No. I was responding to the email in ietf@ -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Thu Feb 25 12:50:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A5F3A0934 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZPfDjUJWd4KZ for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F05953A0928 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id d3so10584860lfg.10 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:50:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oxX9z1vqIApr8uY9vV/RfbvNQpaEwSG/IGeec36Lz+s=; b=pMpovS9LXTQKSZRdi+SSzXQiK4Kz3N12V592DCQwK/EEHf3tKP5sSLdmfVk5cCmq78 o0+mQR2DClJCXvSsRaOY/uWU+12Og1aGzPkaL65dC0G6nCfy1bCwyED2NnpoXHUtnoap 4hWYdQhUjCOoGR7wPd0+r3abAaBK9Hp5/6AcfRsbGbLxAAYQosyrCJiIImt6Q6gcAYcB aJkRXxqKrK9NcwEn8UDLXCgrgqCeR0jVzaU6UV1vK/YinOQ3Dd5VmWpiZM5f/Bt6gBvc vi0JEagYw6TD4Jaodnq9QFsVU1h4DT2wCq3tuedBYBmehmCgRny1xoQBkxsCqUnM7/cQ bmnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oxX9z1vqIApr8uY9vV/RfbvNQpaEwSG/IGeec36Lz+s=; b=GvjdNUFYwATsjWIKKGYXR+IUrfq3i+/lM9HRXWQH3GmBRnES5dRe3FDV4c03GMohBL F5YChG2D0054fx81yXMl8VQFfpzUFiHPxipxtImW9ZT3Qy4c/PlIh393dLuJ2/patYXe 7zrz9hpNGc+quHRzSyJyRczhu6gk/y+BpsCTPd1ZCY3cG6tLuqe+6qL5xyTgIeEToxz7 ytDpH73C6CluoqPBQ/w0B/MgPpHO/aoTeyYKYu15uXoo5BiVljK8aQ6dpO8yu7c6amo7 NcGxBDIHLg+Xw0RygKmYtXfxnfZdsvZ+NZuFqg5P0m0vD6ThrrfSRutx4FVpeBVwchzV 2neQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530PKjvUsQFmGgqyyoup9RphwiXmy++ZW9D3AqJy8yV5lBMNjnZo 2iIN4xgzBUNAVYUd1bcrVNOSQWSgQntt0688EJQn0A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz3HK8N3/2fAdILUQrEk2O7yx2J9BIX2PRgOmEKQBtzDIhGSEwhApkEy83E7kL28LAz79BTS/SWiByPzyRLrHE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:36c1:: with SMTP id e1mr2742837lfs.132.1614286225734; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:50:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:49:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Marc Petit-Huguenin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d0e3105bc2f4d22" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:50:31 -0000 --0000000000000d0e3105bc2f4d22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 12:40 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > > This is not the first "proposal" associated with diversity (in this > case, engagin open source developers) with not much of a rationale > behind it :-) , so to speak... > > The rationale is that there are millions of people using GitHub, and if do > documents with their toolchain, we will get more feedback from developers > than if we tried to draw them into our toolchain. I didn't realize that > was what you were asking me. This rationale was stated multiple times in > the GIT WG. > FWIW, my impression of the situation is the same as Rich's. I can say with confidence that when TLS decided to adopt Github it was because we had seen that it worked well in H2. With that said, I do think it made it easier for people to get involved, in part because it was easy to offer small changes without subscribing to a list, etc. It certainly made it easier to accept such contributions. -Ekr > Marc: > > What I saw is the opposite: Open source developers were already working > with the IETF, and some of them shoved GitHub down our throats. > > Interesting viewpoint. Did you attend any of the WG meetings? I didn't > see your name in the mailing list archives. > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --0000000000000d0e3105bc2f4d22 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 12:40 PM Salz= , Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.= com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is not the first "proposal&qu= ot; associated with diversity (in this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case, engagin open source developers) with not much of a rati= onale
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 behind it :-) , so to speak...

The rationale is that there are millions of people using GitHub, and if do = documents with their toolchain, we will get more feedback from developers t= han if we tried to draw them into our toolchain.=C2=A0 I didn't realize= that was what you were asking me.=C2=A0 This rationale was stated multiple= times in the GIT WG.

FWIW, my impressi= on of the situation is the same as Rich's. I can say with confidence th= at when TLS decided to adopt Github it was because we had seen that it work= ed well in H2. With that said, I do think it made it easier for people to g= et involved, in part because it was easy to offer small changes without sub= scribing to a list, etc. It certainly made it easier to accept such contrib= utions.

-Ekr


Marc:
> What I saw is the opposite:=C2=A0 Open source developers were already = working with the IETF, and some of them shoved GitHub down our throats.
Interesting viewpoint.=C2=A0 Did you attend any of the WG meetings?=C2=A0 I= didn't see your name in the mailing list archives.


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--0000000000000d0e3105bc2f4d22-- From nobody Thu Feb 25 13:06:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5903A0C46 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:06:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KL18iL0jMQcI for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01F463A0BFF for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA3B5C0098 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:06:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=oUVn5JQwG0i4diAQrEPcqOzmK9yj29KEq966r8ilh TQ=; b=okJsNcMAdmlJSpEjAP/IX6Rj6qpw2T19g+1PPiO9xl/TbfHsHu87yYgD2 iO7JEHP3jv0BUzjwrnUuE/4zKh750ZUPf5+MEgoP7DAQk24YJ6WJqQRDPsHXmSw9 xQU0zseCmBnDlyU4ypph7meOkAPba3tE6spGopCAtuOv+fr3a5PXeJPIPupuB2T3 +KChj1rHPe+85qh0IPWsTIqapBdYi0Sh4XfV7/J37tIhMVAOBgantFqNQrDz8hkk ie3aEV0Us8bUv1kjOo19D3nj5vOtBchT7VYiOhBEOaxTC/WHPDUEd89vaSWzRbJo 7RIBhwtEc9B1St2wsOIlQ8GZ7gI2A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrkeelgddugeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AD3301080054 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:06:06 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7925867d-a496-ce25-7138-f8918f7d145c@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:06:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:06:18 -0000 On 2/25/21 12:58 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > The main problem that I, personally, see driving a need for the TERM WG is that many companies (mostly from one region) have told their employees not to use certain terms in any document or code they are associated with. Given the momentum of this movement and speed at which it is spreading to many of the companies employing IETF participants, if IETF does not address the problem ASAP, this could make it difficult for employees of these companies to actively participate. This will primarily impact a specific region/country and people employed by large companies in that region and would be independent of the race, culture, or gender of the participants. I'm not following this.   Are you saying that IETF will be expected to bring its notion of acceptable vocabulary in line with those of some large companies that are mostly from one region so that those companies' employees are not at risk of violating their employers' policies if they participate in IETF?   Or are you saying that document authors/editors who work for such companies will be constrained by IETF to violate their employers' policies if IETF doesn't adopt its own policy (which might be different from the policies of those companies)? Given that we're all supposed to be participating in IETF as individuals, do those companies also constrain what their employees can write on their own time? I guess I don't see a TERM document forcing anyone to use any particular terminology (at least, I hope it doesn't) so much as saying "try to avoid these specific terms unless there's a good reason to do so".   And that seems Mostly Harmless to me and may create some good will.   But if  IETF has to align its rules with those of Big Companies Mostly From One Region, I consider that extremely problematic. Keith From nobody Thu Feb 25 13:18:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708AA3A0B1D; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:17:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rBeV-hbv7ljA; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C75513A0B13; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42C2F280A0D; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:17:51 +0000 (UTC) To: Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Marc Petit-Huguenin References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:16:44 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:18:00 -0000 On 25/2/21 17:49, Eric Rescorla wrote: [...] > The rationale is that there are millions of people using GitHub, and > if do documents with their toolchain, we will get more feedback from > developers than if we tried to draw them into our toolchain.  I > didn't realize that was what you were asking me.  This rationale was > stated multiple times in the GIT WG. > > FWIW, my impression of the situation is the same as Rich's. Using the same toolchain, per se, doesn't seem like a rationale (note, I'm *not* challenging whether it was effective in your experience, but why rather why it was expected ot make a difference). > I can say > with confidence that when TLS decided to adopt Github it was because we > had seen that it worked well in H2. With that said, I do think it made > it easier for people to get involved, in part because it was easy to > offer small changes without subscribing to a list, etc. Ok, so this seems to imply that part of the thing is that subcribing to the mailing-lists is seen as part of the problem. What about e.g. the archives for the discussions, for future reference? Is github.com expected to take on that role? > It certainly made it easier to accept such contributions. Certainly this kind of think may make the life of some easier, and the life of others more painful. But there *is* an implied tradeoff here. It's not a win-win thing. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 13:21:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087263A0B41; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:21:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X_6EbqEfuEG2; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6173E3A0B21; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id l2so4694382pgb.1; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:21:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rkXsX1VGNMXN/SgYaF5u3AEv/BbE/KUTvGAuR8C1jI4=; b=tEqkhz8CX+Kpqyhqz49fsqDArbKR+lYF0Sm/3kAqFJQXrUAQQ1v/11B+lEFxfW+Q55 O/VZF1/sdM/B6PvAkx1xtWvE/ill/bG8HxRki0Uy3hmF7X9FbOz/miz1kei+krvyyGc2 OEPgx+u5M7ZUirZt6SyduwftzMai2iaJhXBjnCINixqLSxKxrMvkDS6XUUlw28WZvJIe Ucc1+YrKidtz07etc7QMQ0zTFIEzBQwFSfit6mpsKMKNqbjSrLMjsCsOMpOazUPZWOF7 3y8wS9W0SC2NRhrArVxkbtyB8kfd8gro+8DdKgZ7aoMxKQkjoajjWu1r1fZ1uip64xNL Up2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rkXsX1VGNMXN/SgYaF5u3AEv/BbE/KUTvGAuR8C1jI4=; b=c9/nxWFlIrIE65EwxZW//yD8odUCLBfshQMQ0g+yCoW9IEjMCrxiup/ZzBTzFEQky7 0uuWXM5Xz1DHb52qhbJtyFaXjbQU5votG9nMbc3dLFuwR92CmL8tH100MFdu808Sz8QE m+YKcECVwtzOFHrlFLOPGyVkrgjQUvKcddkw7wMZI/2Ww0qhcaCWvZ2qy6BARVg9kMKr i+l2KMVMyfwdSMLyjp873tjvRw7BulpDSyP++D/12Gan80k6/9WsPI0UYjevCe38+D51 ThuAIyuVfWgTlmGuH1cqANK2N8G/r3RU3RtINzDq6K9WvmTvf4I74UpI1HPUnkFBkI5w lc/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5317VZQ72v4XnA8/164O/NFuLz/Uqo3of6xfVSsPvlGSRTI1Hz8r Zz4wAMo7CNKWWtxN2O27kKOVgLeUxBQyOw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwDsFa0Jryu+dEXn5mS2h5pLgjqeL15R384WTtIlLlLY1WD+D98WfP78QQA5ZcSU5dLBCpVbA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5a0c:: with SMTP id o12mr4763127pgb.76.1614288065490; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g6sm7239293pfi.15.2021.02.25.13.21.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:21:05 -0800 (PST) To: Lars Eggert , Theresa Enghardt Cc: Fernando Gont , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:21:00 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:21:08 -0000 On 26-Feb-21 06:29, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-2-25, at 18:16, Theresa Enghardt wrote: >> That is true. With ANRW, you at least get to present a short paper or poster at a workshop, so that's a step in the right direction. > > that was actually the main motivation for collocating ANRW always with the IETF - typically, academics can justify conference and workshop travel much more easily than standards travel. > >> Good point about publications. RFCs are publications, too, so there is definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. However, usually the entire process takes much longer than writing academic papers. And I'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to papers, but at least in the part that I know, I would say they're valued. > > One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to assign them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a prerequisite to even recognizing RFCs as academic output. Nevertheless, it is in general hard to get RFCs recognised as valuable for tenure and promotion purposes, compared to more traditional publication streams such as highly-rated journals. That's one reason we did https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1672308.1672315 but I'm not sure it has had much impact. Brian From nobody Thu Feb 25 13:26:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACE03A0B70; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:26:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8kUwuuns6i1s; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14A313A0B55; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8D55C0058; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:25:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=aYN/yc8Ej/nSIQ+4uEoQ10oCCca7/zS0RBaiY+dyC cw=; b=A40H5FI+KF5X31oLSXhc0Svu6Ho7S525eohk3Gvn6XJd1rTl4q8aid6L/ ZtoOUXRy4dPM2JQe7HqblWE9Nn8v+lqlyJDKUyFPEfRf4WYIdnwo6jPWBX3FVhFI PYunupWRKeP6oZTHHpxSpiiGVGs4rrzGs+my82jEDoAGuUHWg3bYl1hKwPW1V/cF ZsYw1lu+ESSjBuvQDuuL/Txd5JhaabdOAI6fW5th1iU8iNVthbf4zJ+FCyapJW80 gLPRKbV69lp1JH3dOsZLamHbLxQYYT2gkqa1Gc8+XMK12eIgqVxc+9jFtNIx0HJu Zikzk5SNEyEZp4LleID7gNtSzUt2g== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrkeelgdduhedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfehheehjedtfeetffeikeduieelgefhueeiteevueeu keejhedtteektdeltdfgnecuffhomhgrihhnpegrtghmrdhorhhgnecukfhppedutdekrd dvvddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgr ihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A4BD91080057; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:25:56 -0500 (EST) To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Fernando Gont , GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <8f4cbf58-979c-48cf-422c-a46e40b9e067@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:25:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:26:01 -0000 [private reply] On 2/25/21 4:21 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Nevertheless, it is in general hard to get RFCs recognised as valuable for tenure and promotion purposes, compared to more traditional publication streams such as highly-rated journals. That's one reason we didhttps://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1672308.1672315 but I'm not sure it has had much impact. Back when I was a university researcher, one of my rejected grant proposals got returned with a note from a reviewer that said "you're spending time at the wrong conferences and citing the wrong kinds of references".   (Referring to IETF conferences and RFCs.) From nobody Thu Feb 25 13:35:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD853A0BD5 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:35:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2TF7RLo3fi0m for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C7653A0BD3 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5132B28062B; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:35:11 +0000 (UTC) To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <7925867d-a496-ce25-7138-f8918f7d145c@network-heretics.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <63cfebbd-08e9-5fb1-a89a-9021020afad5@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:22:09 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7925867d-a496-ce25-7138-f8918f7d145c@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:35:17 -0000 On 25/2/21 18:06, Keith Moore wrote: > On 2/25/21 12:58 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > >> The main problem that I, personally, see driving a need for the TERM >> WG is that many companies (mostly from one region) have told their >> employees not to use certain terms in any document or code they are >> associated with. Given the momentum of this movement and speed at >> which it is spreading to many of the companies employing IETF >> participants, if IETF does not address the problem ASAP, this could >> make it difficult for employees of these companies to actively >> participate. This will primarily impact a specific region/country and >> people employed by large companies in that region and would be >> independent of the race, culture, or gender of the participants. > > I'm not following this.   Are you saying that IETF will be expected to > bring its notion of acceptable vocabulary in line with those of some > large companies that are mostly from one region so that those companies' > employees are not at risk of violating their employers' policies if they > participate in IETF?   Or are you saying that document authors/editors > who work for such companies will be constrained by IETF to violate their > employers' policies if IETF doesn't adopt its own policy (which might be > different from the policies of those companies)? My next question would be: if folks from X country require e.g. that people dress in a certain way (for religious purposes, or whatever), since otherwise they wouldn't be able to contribute... what would be the IETFs take on this? Or, let me ask a different question: is the IETF to be taken as a global organization? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 13:36:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC4B3A0BDA for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:36:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Smsy4zWfl9jo for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E09DE3A0BD5 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id u4so10820321lfs.0 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:36:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EFTIt8ee4MLU5E7eYQPjw0IeB/FIZqEpEDiMJI9kijo=; b=rtbZY3qFoBCC0OZ9x5SJzwF81CrsiI4PjXggGtXT9NgY+VR0jsVtIx21adgrKXLKN2 Di8lBG97hcUJ7VPZLXJlPGTkzBxbZNjMVb+qZVEQKb5fhmsgYtcZRwdMjBf262jYGIKx k+sgp5bby0onXhUW1pISc7yWEkA+ZhIZ3X69n7YFzKebKgEZV7ORJmCHJIi4f9iPu38q +lAL2onR/X/N/oVQrIgIZubg0Mxyyk7OmptMVtTl3q3ywdaeAfXoEF142mOBBd7u1Qgf u9n3Fda7PQAGhYFxbk2SpBWbWn26BeANPE4IKHOJVfVpZgwbZ85NsGu/n/coMuE9X6LY 4ADw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EFTIt8ee4MLU5E7eYQPjw0IeB/FIZqEpEDiMJI9kijo=; b=Hvpx383XJD+9KWaptT6Lxz3RjqIGneUv5BcHYQqn9nPTab+amx0jXhivDamzhQZ2JV 92rwLaAHk069dS4dRdbyvPSJHYSPU/ijIpNpNNdZUR8BOxOLAoJ8l+icDpd5jKMndNAK dGkfWDSInRQmrjK0FonHmy17EHkbczHsczAU482SdvsXzc4IyfRFXG4q5ePpqFq1ocIl n34YODmaHFIxNAB4zlXYAn792kxQYUTvJcbetb40v60iVy/0bSrDag4f5wxWhvMhBTOy HJBj8vr5UOf1plgJun+EDfJUjIahUD29CERHI2eAoIHEFl6v77/tOpHQ5lQfVIPnOEFq fZBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532CCzfHuaBPGG9ayaJekD3fCa/4tP3fZlofDEpXoHInAofzG733 k5lPMnHPEKUWIdbiPdpl95Y1639jjX7ayDtKWsC1eQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzXMAFuKt937tMDlAD/klQwTljwTeAOGzNbIfMjZEBs9rvUJldGsmbfbgBx91mX7evBJgvtto/TXapY4NALoyU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3607:: with SMTP id f7mr2825332lfs.245.1614288966194; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:36:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:35:30 -0800 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Marc Petit-Huguenin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000652a0405bc2ff0b7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:36:10 -0000 --000000000000652a0405bc2ff0b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 1:17 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > On 25/2/21 17:49, Eric Rescorla wrote: > [...] > > The rationale is that there are millions of people using GitHub, and > > if do documents with their toolchain, we will get more feedback from > > developers than if we tried to draw them into our toolchain. I > > didn't realize that was what you were asking me. This rationale was > > stated multiple times in the GIT WG. > > > > FWIW, my impression of the situation is the same as Rich's. > > Using the same toolchain, per se, doesn't seem like a rationale (note, > I'm *not* challenging whether it was effective in your experience, but > why rather why it was expected ot make a difference). > Well, as I said below, for TLS and QUIC we had the experience of HTTP to draw on, so our expectations were mostly "this will be similar to HTTP". I can't speak for what caused the HTTP chairs to decide to use GitHub. Perhaps experience in WHATWG? > > > > I can say > > with confidence that when TLS decided to adopt Github it was because we > > had seen that it worked well in H2. With that said, I do think it made > > it easier for people to get involved, in part because it was easy to > > offer small changes without subscribing to a list, etc. > > Ok, so this seems to imply that part of the thing is that subcribing to > the mailing-lists is seen as part of the problem. > > What about e.g. the archives for the discussions, for future reference? > Is github.com expected to take on that role? > Generally yes, though it's of course possible to archive this separately. Obviously, there are pluses and minuses here, but in my experience GitHub makes doing the archaeology on what resulted in a given decision quite a bit easier because you can use 'git blame' and the commit history to find when the change was introduced and through that the discussion (i.e., issue/PR) that lead to it. > It certainly made it easier to accept such contributions. > > Certainly this kind of think may make the life of some easier, and the > life of others more painful. But there *is* an implied tradeoff here. > It's not a win-win thing. > It's very rare to find a change that doesn't inconvenience someone, and given that we had a whole WG on this topic, I don't think it's that useful to relitigate the relative pluses and minuses of Github usage. -Ekr > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > --000000000000652a0405bc2ff0b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 1:17 PM Ferna= ndo Gont <fgont@si6networks.com= > wrote:
= On 25/2/21 17:49, Eric Rescorla wrote:
[...]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The rationale is that there are millions of people = using GitHub, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if do documents with their toolchain, we will get m= ore feedback from
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0developers than if we tried to draw them into our t= oolchain.=C2=A0 I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0didn't realize that was what you were asking me= .=C2=A0 This rationale was
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stated multiple times in the GIT WG.
>
> FWIW, my impression of the situation is the same as Rich's.

Using the same toolchain, per se, doesn't seem like a rationale (note, =
I'm *not* challenging whether it was effective in your experience, but =
why rather why it was expected ot make a difference).
=
Well, as I said below, for TLS and QUIC we had the experienc= e of HTTP
to draw on, so our expectations were mostly "this = will be similar to HTTP".
I can't speak for what caused = the HTTP chairs to decide to use GitHub.
Perhaps experience in WH= ATWG?
=C2=A0


> I can say
> with confidence that when TLS decided to adopt Github it was because w= e
> had seen that it worked well in H2. With that said, I do think it made=
> it easier for people to get involved, in part because it was easy to <= br> > offer small changes without subscribing to a list, etc.

Ok, so this seems to imply that part of the thing is that subcribing to the mailing-lists is seen as part of the problem.

What about e.g. the archives for the discussions, for future reference? Is githu= b.com expected to take on that role?

Generally yes, though it's of course possible to archive this separat= ely.
Obviously, there are pluses and minuses here, but in my expe= rience
GitHub makes doing the archaeology on what resulted in a g= iven
decision quite a bit easier because you can use 'git bla= me' and the
commit history to find when the change was introd= uced and through
that the discussion (i.e., issue/PR) that lead t= o it.


> It certainly made it easier to accept such contributions.

Certainly this kind of think may make the life of some easier, and the
life of others more painful. But there *is* an implied tradeoff here.
It's not a win-win thing.

It's = very rare to find a change that doesn't inconvenience someone, and
given that we had a whole WG on this topic, I don't think it'= s that useful
to relitigate the relative pluses and minuses of Gi= thub usage.

-Ekr


Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si= 6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492




--000000000000652a0405bc2ff0b7-- From nobody Thu Feb 25 13:42:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0CC3A0BF7; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:42:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xv5_7UuHIrJe; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DCE63A0BF3; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B1910280155; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:41:51 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Marc Petit-Huguenin References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <848db3b1-1423-e08f-d529-32924286241e@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:41:45 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:42:02 -0000 On 25/2/21 17:40, Salz, Rich wrote: > On 25/2/21 17:26, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: [...] >> What I saw is the opposite: Open source developers were already working with the IETF, and some of them shoved GitHub down our throats. > > Interesting viewpoint. Did you attend any of the WG meetings? I didn't see your name in the mailing list archives. Well, as per this discussion, it seems that mailing-lists and mailing-lists archives don't really matter much, anyway ? -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 14:06:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4E43A0CBA; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:06:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uELUw-C7wmec; 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Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:06:42 -0800 (PST) To: Fernando Gont , "Salz, Rich" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Marc Petit-Huguenin References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <848db3b1-1423-e08f-d529-32924286241e@si6networks.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8156d278-b53e-bd66-f061-67261c43b215@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:06:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <848db3b1-1423-e08f-d529-32924286241e@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 22:06:45 -0000 On 26-Feb-21 10:41, Fernando Gont wrote: > On 25/2/21 17:40, Salz, Rich wrote: > > On 25/2/21 17:26, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > [...] >>> What I saw is the opposite: Open source developers were already working with the IETF, and some of them shoved GitHub down our throats. >> >> Interesting viewpoint. Did you attend any of the WG meetings? I didn't see your name in the mailing list archives. > > Well, as per this discussion, it seems that mailing-lists and > mailing-lists archives don't really matter much, anyway ? Not so; have you read RFC8874? What happens in GitHub stays in GitHub. As far as IETF consensus goes, RFC2148 remains determinant. 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.34) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 22:25:32 -0000 PiAgICBVc2luZyB0aGUgc2FtZSB0b29sY2hhaW4sIHBlciBzZSwgZG9lc24ndCBzZWVtIGxpa2Ug YSByYXRpb25hbGUNCg0KUmVkdWNpbmcgYSBiYXJyaWVyIHRvIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGUgaXMgd29ydGh3 aGlsZS4gIEp1c3QgYXMgc29tZSBhcmUgYWR2b2NhdGluZyBiZWluZyBhYmxlIHRvIHN1Ym1pdCBh IGRyYWZ0IGluIGFueSBmb3JtYXQgdGhleSBoYXZlIG9uLWhhbmQuDQoNCj4gICAgT2ssIHNvIHRo aXMgc2VlbXMgdG8gaW1wbHkgdGhhdCBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSB0aGluZyBpcyB0aGF0IHN1YmNyaWJp bmcgdG8gDQogICAgdGhlIG1haWxpbmctbGlzdHMgaXMgc2VlbiBhcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBwcm9i bGVtLg0KDQpOby4gIFBhcnRpY2lwYXRpbmcgaW4gYSBoaWdoLXZvbHVtZSBsaXN0IHdpdGggbm8g cHJhY3RpY2FsIGFiaWxpdHkgdG8gZmlsdGVyIHRoaW5ncyBvdXQgdG8ganVzdCB0aGUgb25lIHNl Y3Rpb24gb2YgYSBkcmFmdCwgZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUuDQoNCj4gICAgV2hhdCBhYm91dCBlLmcuIHRo ZSBhcmNoaXZlcyBmb3IgdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zLCBmb3IgZnV0dXJlIHJlZmVyZW5jZT8gDQog ICAgSXMgZ2l0aHViLmNvbSBleHBlY3RlZCB0byB0YWtlIG9uIHRoYXQgcm9sZT8NCg0KSXQgaXMg cG9zc2libGUuICBNYXJ0aW4ncyB0b29scyBhbHJlYWR5IGFyY2hpdmUgYWxsIGlzc3VlcyBhbmQg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMsIGFuZCB0aGUgSUVURiBpcyBhbHJlYWR5IG1ha2luZyBjb3BpZXMgb2YgdGhv c2UgcmVwb3NpdG9yaWVzIG1lbnRpb25lZCBpbiB0aGUgZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuDQoNCj4gICAgQ2Vy dGFpbmx5IHRoaXMga2luZCBvZiB0aGluayBtYXkgbWFrZSB0aGUgbGlmZSBvZiBzb21lIGVhc2ll ciwgYW5kIHRoZSANCiAgICBsaWZlIG9mIG90aGVycyBtb3JlIHBhaW5mdWwuIEJ1dCB0aGVyZSAq aXMqIGFuIGltcGxpZWQgdHJhZGVvZmYgaGVyZS4gDQogICAgSXQncyBub3QgYSB3aW4td2luIHRo aW5nLg0KDQpJbiBteSBleHBlcmllbmNlLCB2ZXJ5IGZldyB0aGluZ3MgYXJlIHdpbi13aW4uDQoN Ckl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIG5pY2UgaWYgYWxsIHBvdGVudGlhbCBJRVRGIHBhcnRpY2lwYW50cyB3ZXJl IGJvcm4gaW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgZXJhIGFuZCB1c2VkIHRvIHRoZSBzYW1lIHRvb2xzLCBJIHN1cHBv c2UuICBCdXQgaXQgd291bGQgYWxzbyBiZSB2ZXJ5IGJvcmluZy4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Feb 25 15:00:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7AC3A0EF3; 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Thu, 25 Feb 2021 22:59:51 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" Cc: Marc Petit-Huguenin , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <8B649927-DC39-4E59-95F9-A83C3CD8F494@akamai.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3c5b4c2a-e770-6809-5649-76adf15c67ba@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 19:33:24 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8B649927-DC39-4E59-95F9-A83C3CD8F494@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:00:02 -0000 On 25/2/21 19:25, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Using the same toolchain, per se, doesn't seem like a rationale > > Reducing a barrier to contribute is worthwhile. When you're changing the way of contributing, you're not universally "reducing the barrier". -- certainly not for somebody that does't do git. > Just as some are advocating being able to submit a draft in any format they have on-hand. > >> Ok, so this seems to imply that part of the thing is that subcribing to > the mailing-lists is seen as part of the problem. > > No. Participating in a high-volume list with no practical ability to filter things out to just the one section of a draft, for example. Point taken. So... mailing list are seen as a problematic mechanism to carry our work? [...] F is already making copies of those repositories mentioned in the datatracker. > >> Certainly this kind of think may make the life of some easier, and the > life of others more painful. But there *is* an implied tradeoff here. > It's not a win-win thing. > > In my experience, very few things are win-win. Indeed. That's why claiming that the barriers are lowered is a dificult claim. > It would be nice if all potential IETF participants were born in the same era and used to the same tools, I suppose. But it would also be very boring. It's probably also boring that we all use IP.... -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 15:49:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96AD3A11E2; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:49:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Rz9aXezsjKZ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:49:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 098DB3A11E0; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 72.247.45.32) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:49:43 -0000 PiAgICBXaGVuIHlvdSdyZSBjaGFuZ2luZyB0aGUgd2F5IG9mIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGluZywgeW91J3Jl IG5vdCB1bml2ZXJzYWxseSANCiAgICAicmVkdWNpbmcgdGhlIGJhcnJpZXIiLiAtLSBjZXJ0YWlu bHkgbm90IGZvciBzb21lYm9keSB0aGF0IGRvZXMndCBkbyBnaXQuDQoNClRoZSBJRVRGIGhhcyBu b3QgY2hhbmdlZCB0aGUgd2F5IHBlb3BsZSBjb250cmlidXRlLiAgRHJhZnRzIGFyZSBzdGlsbCBw b3N0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3RzIHN0aWxsIGV4aXN0IGZvciBm ZWVkYmFjayBhbmQgY29tbWVudCAoYW5kIG11c3QgYmUgdXNlZCBmb3IgY29uZmlybWluZyBjb25z ZW5zdXMsIGV0YykuICBKdXN0IGJlY2F1c2UgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG1vcmUgcGF0aHMgaW50byB0aGUg ZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIgbm93LiAgSSBtZWFuLCBwcm9iYWJseSBhcm91bmQgMTk4NS0xOTk1IHdlIGFs bCBqdXN0IEZUUCdkIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudHMgd2Ugd2FudGVkIHRvIHJlYWQuICBJcyBhbnlvbmUg Z29pbmcgdG8gYXJndWUgdGhhdCBpdCdzIG5vdCBlYXNpZXIgbm93Pw0KDQo+ICAgIFBvaW50IHRh a2VuLiBTby4uLiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QgYXJlIHNlZW4gYXMgYSBwcm9ibGVtYXRpYyBtZWNoYW5p c20gdG8gDQogICAgY2Fycnkgb3VyIHdvcms/DQoNCkZvciBzb21lIHBlb3BsZSBJIHRoaW5rIHRo ZSBhbnN3ZXIgaXMgeWVzLiAgSXQgc2VlbXMgdGhhdCBvdmVyYWxsIHVzZSBvZiBlbWFpbCBpcyBk ZWNsaW5pbmcsIGJ1dCBpdCdzIGhhcmQgdG8gZ2V0IHJlYWwgbnVtYmVycyB3aXRob3V0IGdldHRp bmcgdGFuZ2xlZCB1cCBpbiBlbWFpbCBtYXJrZXRpbmcgbmV3c2xldHRlciBidXNpbmVzcy4gIEJ1 dCBJIGZlZWwgbGlrZSB5b3Uga2VlcCB0cnlpbmcgdG8gaGF2ZSBtZSBtYWtlIGJsYW5rZXQgYXNz ZXJ0aW9ucyBhbmQgSSBkb24ndCB3YW50IHRvIGRvIHRoYXQuDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Feb 25 20:30:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7209E3A0AB8; 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Fri, 26 Feb 2021 04:30:17 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <8B649927-DC39-4E59-95F9-A83C3CD8F494@akamai.com> <3c5b4c2a-e770-6809-5649-76adf15c67ba@si6networks.com> <7E0F4F4E-8BD2-4D1A-B998-2F4B09DA1DF4@akamai.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <939c6505-e2c5-6bfb-ab5c-ec6274738338@si6networks.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:29:56 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7E0F4F4E-8BD2-4D1A-B998-2F4B09DA1DF4@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 04:30:57 -0000 Hi, Rich, On 25/2/21 20:49, Salz, Rich wrote: >> When you're changing the way of contributing, you're not >> universally > "reducing the barrier". -- certainly not for somebody that does't do > git. > > The IETF has not changed the way people contribute. Drafts are still > posted to the datatracker, mailing lists still exist for feedback and > comment (and must be used for confirming consensus, etc). Just > because there are more paths into the datatracker now. I mean, > probably around 1985-1995 we all just FTP'd the documents we wanted > to read. Is anyone going to argue that it's not easier now? Based on some comments it seems that in some cases a significant fraction of the discussion moved to github. Hence my question. In such a case, participants are kind of required to participate in github. I didn't participate much (if at all) in the recommendations regarding the use of github in the ietf. And my assumtion was that for the most part it was more of a "use it if deemed useful", but was assuming the discussions that would lead to changes to remain in the mailing-lists. > >> Point taken. So... mailing list are seen as a problematic mechanism >> to > carry our work? > > For some people I think the answer is yes. It seems that overall use > of email is declining, but it's hard to get real numbers without > getting tangled up in email marketing newsletter business. But I > feel like you keep trying to have me make blanket assertions and I > don't want to do that. No, no. It was a honest question. Me I wasn't aware about some of the assumptions that were mentioned in the thread... hence my questions. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 25 23:50:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8AA3A09A5; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:50:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZhQdfztrNQ6R; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF1903A099F; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A4CA60030F; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:50:44 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1614325844; bh=LcB/W3B3K+pw0CbPnUgolcLtfaXmftetEsm+CKmf9Ks=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=wwSgdQlALKPkh/EH4zPDSwZROA05sCOseYfyA29p5DHgoFY/40oU9vCZn1T1iaWBR haekpqixzujsn05gV8rtoKPMdeHcygRP9h2I4Jjie9eVrt/fe5ugk3X9fhp99tnGwH x5P0pPdrwmScqKCifByGoF0YIUTIZ8Ls2vf03dPY= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <48880C2B-E8E6-4AD7-BC02-D1507996F813@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5DE9D16D-4996-4355-8B50-EA1588969F32"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:50:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6006aa81-613d-04ea-4666-c7f3eaa4f63b@si6networks.com> Cc: Theresa Enghardt , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore , "ietf@ietf.org" To: Fernando Gont References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> <6006aa81-613d-04ea-4666-c7f3eaa4f63b@si6networks.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 5A4CA60030F.A2623 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 07:50:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5DE9D16D-4996-4355-8B50-EA1588969F32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-2-25, at 20:00, Fernando Gont wrote: > On 25/2/21 14:29, Lars Eggert wrote: >> One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to = assign them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a = prerequisite to even recognizing RFCs as academic output. >=20 > Was the rationale documented anywhere? (since this might be of value = to note/reference, along with your other note above). not as far as I know. This was discussed a bunch of times at various = IRSG meetings ~5 years ago. (As as the decision on how to schedule the = ANRW.) Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_5DE9D16D-4996-4355-8B50-EA1588969F32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmA4qFMACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcARQ//ZRmKsd5DMPbkTcuUAhrYFbkLv/lEBqZRxAF8dw0D9KldnL7e4ii/DOCZ AvGQJGuIMGj/ecVBNoS0nZ/SywfFvWJxaC9JcC+pYK99QYKjloR+9KBg0SNpNO6r 4NVZ2ruk70RRsR4KAoGaN58xjbOt6RLcKSuwoP++acLMinkWZoAyagw/sOF2MURy lFssujruY6w91JsgmhtLEbjhiSauZugWJSJwkpFCwPi9kjJYQ7unx/UmTMgtmABR lfX1egABzm482VjGqJYwfAac/PglX8o1DAaFQW0OFQ1djaCrduR6QTqDHVjIwxgv s5dBeG3zv/qENUgUDSiGh9cJak1syahJQ5Pr8DlHTB+8Ue7nxXBVkmhvNTwujItc ksTAUtirkOASylX6jbHL3IbrZYFlTDI1Y2jLIa4Hqm9PeDFQRsF88L/gnYjAJWvF kuI6rkomN6cMZBCREoZ8QfDDymkgZr87W5/X+HA7xHn7/J50Ex+CGSMciOPxr7ke n4iI7IODsfyas5KttFJavWHGr8wk0upNtjtRSkzyfun2OBUrZbRd0/Wwy9F71o5G 2CVY/xsBPiSunidGtihwkoK4EU2r9YVANCd/y804luWj1ehEUyKuWkOpixI0m7lH 7d127VywHXAmVGlfRLAFJ/XmWm3lordReNPhL0uQQ86+/mJwfvg= =+yDw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5DE9D16D-4996-4355-8B50-EA1588969F32-- From nobody Thu Feb 25 23:55:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92EA13A09B9; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:55:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lgDTGXmwoKx5; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C6A03A09B5; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 730D960030F; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:54:50 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1614326090; bh=zijAXMro91KAdyBFJ++SnB0STbkr5uOj8IuZ/QWH1QI=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=xCyG9AWD3Y40lO3bqnt3pMtPrkgYOJTMIGuZffqC70lW17Hi8zGqKioYIoyZeoSK4 boXs/ryT9ajpzBvK9TAOJaT1YoJE0Tx4XXYnRZU3HOMWeuZxX9l8XVIMm4W/lO3M+l Oy8iVb5FCLQTwrwrqunGadVsnLojBClTqaYbN3is= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7A3C4686-BEC1-43EE-9C4C-3BBC056713FD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:54:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> Cc: Theresa Enghardt , Fernando Gont , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore , "ietf@ietf.org" To: Brian E Carpenter References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 730D960030F.A196D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 07:55:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7A3C4686-BEC1-43EE-9C4C-3BBC056713FD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-2-25, at 23:21, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > On 26-Feb-21 06:29, Lars Eggert wrote: >> One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to = assign them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a = prerequisite to even recognizing RFCs as academic output. >=20 > Nevertheless, it is in general hard to get RFCs recognised as valuable = for tenure and promotion purposes, compared to more traditional = publication streams such as highly-rated journals. completely agreed. DOIs don't fully solve the problem, they are a first = required step. Some tenure committees operate under rules that don't = makes it difficult to consider evaluating something that doesn't have a = DOI. > That's one reason we did = https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1672308.1672315 but I'm not sure it has = had much impact. Yes, that is an invaluable document when RFCs are able to be considered = for evaluation. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_7A3C4686-BEC1-43EE-9C4C-3BBC056713FD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmA4qUkACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdg+Q/8CmDxQkSxs17juCj1ZLrieM/kcVzOQMdVUBqeq4R+GPuPWh4UFl4eqEAg 1OLVE0q8g9gUbq8k2b18DcKIRSxrvFknc7QojQ1UTywEqCdScpk24/CJsVVNMRLi EF7MbRa3eaAeMRZk9epJZue8U/K/JMHUkeEJOOrdRkg9mnrGZQgCHsyzbGLPHTPT mLjlOOaaQYzJpxIHPde2VACtcCp/+yOGWIZvogJ8MQ4yMiAGEFORQMvWXOU/Arg7 rjXXyg9V5f8gClnttwv3hCcuaE/fLgJ4yEOvWUz+g8tfhi3fSYDDB3pwkH50R6NY Ttrfc/yAhVQtwRZ1akHIzc1KDEr7JwDqeGS96BoW+zH+fRPtdkR1AX7dKVm2mK2z 2CzZxM72mU5nM5+srzfCzwO0vNCS7OFHpnfErabDYm6tTdTBVQEovm3bjMQ2vOSM 8q61yaunfFPBAwKYRYzJ431foPlcIDKSoOa0mRnAe8qQR+EDLv+TW9geJDbdp95O BMt9hNkXXdWnIN7CXVXWVFq9DP7XozwkldqyLcRy0cHho4kGxSKGO9DwkqvOk/du VDxd2pMqKnBKwniSShsOpUFB9JL9lsgxqXuv9DRtTAzlouRsl615dkC18gD/M8aY /Wrw6jpD8tiuDa44+mdfOfw0RvX8OqLgIpf9jwc283kx1sWm8Sg= =oQFP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7A3C4686-BEC1-43EE-9C4C-3BBC056713FD-- From nobody Fri Feb 26 00:34:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B28A3A0BFA; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 00:34:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DGbLnikbPbDj; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 00:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23B3E3A0BF9; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 00:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 40C5860004C; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:34:33 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1614328473; bh=BBT/gE8Qwv4k25deOIDSX8uvAqXYJsL05DFYUEpv1eU=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=0oO7XpXJF+FpVWv2ERuxSSqYoSjuJF5NAFsuEboDt/oQ2FsSXkIyrnbKGZcpZdMmm miuxzOO1V8dL4fVfDyWzUL1HLxzUFPx5RiwfiXNHct9TfiFGOSbeEOylouU3CYc0GB JjiXI2IG+UMcBWz7yXWriXV3qNhgLvV61Druv9tU= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <37B1C77B-2CCF-4D70-9332-BF4F6CBE7C22@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_860C18F7-E372-44D2-9554-BE4FFE193379"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:34:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Andrew Campling , Dominique Lazanski , Bron Gondwana , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Fernando Gont References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 40C5860004C.A08D7 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:34:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_860C18F7-E372-44D2-9554-BE4FFE193379 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2021-2-25, at 21:34, Fernando Gont wrote: > On 25/2/21 16:24, Salz, Rich wrote: >> of git/github does represent yet another barrier. >> Nothing requires anyone to use Git or GitHub. >=20 > If a WG somewhat requires use of github, then the barrier is there. It may be a barrier to some. It may also *lower* the barrier for others. = It's a tradeoff. For example: The QUIC WG uses GitHub extensively. That has made it very = easy for the engineers that are implementing QUIC stacks at various = organizations to participate in the WG, because much of that development = already happens on GitHub and so the WG process is more approachable. = For many of these engineers, QUIC is their first involvement in the = IETF, and using tools and workflows that are familiar hence lowers the = bar for their participation. On the flip side, several longtime IETF = participants were not very familiar with GitHub and its workflows, and = the WG's heavy use of them required some adjustment, making it a bit = more challenging for them for a while. Personally, I believe this was a = worthwhile tradeoff to make, given that we needed to manage the design = of a very complex protocol, but YMMV. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_860C18F7-E372-44D2-9554-BE4FFE193379 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmA4spgACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcLAQ/9F1cXmWDuv15wWVd3JxkxcsOnOqIJlrLh9EHAWkZMev23u8rzcbEsa1Td qXDWzaxqylGk5xfODRl8YV1vjAHZ5puCgCY4nrZzecYzpglz5RavEECz7G9HMsQN h+KkuHYfTyHHCzjMfQXWIGQ/ZOucvA13c/JTeOzq7WnCWzY4Ide6ptwl+7mz4gjU f5hjjhzXAyhVpv7PDF+S4pZDJ9xQJmAdjIGouTnZSFZlYhZTgq6EFs25HRXFTXlZ UVUej+sLKyfdIqpiEY6TjnBEx5RUa/5XsmvAKiPiDWB2naDYZhd5EW8qJuIBJE28 PRidbhHKF50m4Q5p1196tC8hYVPtfPC+2MkI2843YlmTrShei/V/2XpgXb5p2TlB +4GLLb734DbaGG+a4mPO0Xq0AU3C1fadEmXZvRjGVD3JieZkEQkF7kic+8U0qmHu +aDCOa8FupKwbZUX00xQz6azZXS/fROYGXWjjeA/cCvGGs3YeIB8TuTBICAGKQoY gA40tfZxrlrc4OuCPGyDxl+iwdkOo8QmjwwzCQ2jw1Ayq06IMAYd01SWMYXIC8+Q AbjDmBz3ZX48BlGE4bSWSM3cqbR9zjSCc8KdP52tb4Wxcmij2X4h28IEvobo5B6k nBP03DxMF+pua/7QsJFxOSVNbQ9fqqTreudybfqneO9bBQ2QoHc= =z34e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_860C18F7-E372-44D2-9554-BE4FFE193379-- From nobody Fri Feb 26 00:38:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA693A0C20; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 00:38:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ll3JUeLvSbiH; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 00:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDF8C3A0C1E; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 00:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE98360004C; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:38:25 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1614328706; bh=/8D8/WdfzMyEBA+eo55cRQvPlFGq2cAfMJwOgrTIC2M=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=t+aKIL3vWjq/LGkHM1Q8Ci1rm08Ddrpng9xRzwFbsOZfaS5QC7WCMEbzoVmUOQIiu ndgDo4DHf6f+hEZ0hqYk8jLgQXZV4Im0A0wfGt2zeqXV9xjEn4vkJnOZZqbXNcrSXJ 38muAC65VS92HRQ3LR8uLkMbpoiH0KAhvbYN6/qY= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <1DAB9964-59A9-49A7-BF3A-201A0D7A56CE@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9E06C2CD-0934-4C97-9FBD-7E4CC3747A5A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:38:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Fernando Gont References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> X-MailScanner-ID: EE98360004C.A15CB X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 08:38:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9E06C2CD-0934-4C97-9FBD-7E4CC3747A5A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2021-2-25, at 22:09, Fernando Gont wrote: > When discussions end up spread over gihub and email lists, that's not = a nice feature, IMO. It is possible to configure GitHub so that issue discussion is reflected = onto a mailing list, and email responses get reflected into the web = issue system. QUIC uses the quic-issues@ mailing list for that. That = mailing list is an IETF list, searchable and archived. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_9E06C2CD-0934-4C97-9FBD-7E4CC3747A5A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmA4s4EACgkQVLXDCb9w wVckTA/9E8FhixBm67NStcpMJplwuD79BhasMfx3IomTrkCcmWOUqkGX28NPeQ4t Bytg8A4eEOD4WbYCMBwO2zImBX956ZvI/0x2I9HTQJtOQBf52v8FzCOR2YV59Sqz cIRooYWLAEMJ9cluf7l0qrDkZ9LOjdBpAucyDEFPeAJfjH4zBUAlhH0XBju4Xfiy R0g5J3XedZaWjIcPUzEEVIcJmoTCdYLxi81ERxvxKESjK7J8PK0YPLcu5OCy2RQI V/XwrnRSlAMjmohPk4L7PeN7CNKmxTQQRs1NZWtpItks9+SVK89eAhBxXCSbiaju yTDgy8OUDHJToUWCEE734Y6TNi8+zszaRA04aaVrEDy9VHGyueW8ULHc+XupkOsh cRUUdY1r9OBJbmOXMiTuNuUNgbCn6vhuvB83lbn3h0PSscJYKU1VLWtHRAVLZ/vy gnFGBMgZ0L5lYnxswVTmrVeZlnjpU1agJdl8tyN0zL7bAzUUKRZeZ0qMzUv58ypT 9VNgcKm5zpfOKjcHHu1TtEX03PY0AS8EWpvngZVKWyjDQDS4NcYGiBRRxJ/NiyvT HNsAF02UMXN1uS+qroBr1WqvAeMhuJJLcveeb5alZykVDu9SlqoCi5HXtXd75MsH IGhkFOzi+00X0QoPuOPXrW9Spf9kk4l6rwOgfyEN2MS7hKRxbbE= =BVPF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9E06C2CD-0934-4C97-9FBD-7E4CC3747A5A-- From nobody Fri Feb 26 01:11:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3962F3A0D31; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:11:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gqX2QLSRhmEG; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:11:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5C9C3A0D38; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:a449:5f08:346f:44bd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E07BF280797; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:10:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: Lars Eggert Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Andrew Campling , Dominique Lazanski , Bron Gondwana , "ietf@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <37B1C77B-2CCF-4D70-9332-BF4F6CBE7C22@eggert.org> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 06:09:56 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37B1C77B-2CCF-4D70-9332-BF4F6CBE7C22@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:11:10 -0000 Hi, Lars, On 26/2/21 05:34, Lars Eggert wrote: > On 2021-2-25, at 21:34, Fernando Gont wrote: >> On 25/2/21 16:24, Salz, Rich wrote: >>> of git/github does represent yet another barrier. >>> Nothing requires anyone to use Git or GitHub. >> >> If a WG somewhat requires use of github, then the barrier is there. > > It may be a barrier to some. It may also *lower* the barrier for others. It's a tradeoff. That's essentially what I tried to note. FWIW, I only had one experience of github usage in an IETF wg, and the result wasn't probably the best -- discussion split in to different places, some huge monolithic pull requests, and other things. -- of course, this doesn't talk about the tool, but rather about how it was used. -- Glad it worked differently for QUIC! Out of curiosity: has the experience been documented such that e.g. other groups could learn/reproduce the adjustments you referred to? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Feb 26 01:17:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D0C3A0D50; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:17:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNpNovsBZq9y; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 748C33A0D4E; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b9:15ed:9bd5:c92f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA6E160004C; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:17:12 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1614331032; bh=Zq65ff/v8c5dG7LRocilCHQSjdsWZ8rrEPgln8WdRBc=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=RlmFROOWljK1oAIQAGf/7yDmGztDAxysQrq8ggTbUvItHzjXonyKDSoK33YKNyZUc riylRgaUBK3Rm4cgvr/3D56mczN0hZae1Vp8LAaZdBQemMt6j6VQICDW6vAazsthr7 +GGqEL63dXIY6mgZCKZHjzbU4Ew+hRM45rfYZLws= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <8CA4D602-70BE-4D57-A0B7-3D242730E02A@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1F290C86-14BB-4544-82CA-BB58737211D7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:17:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Andrew Campling , Dominique Lazanski , "ietf@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Bron Gondwana To: Fernando Gont References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <37B1C77B-2CCF-4D70-9332-BF4F6CBE7C22@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: CA6E160004C.A1DD6 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:17:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1F290C86-14BB-4544-82CA-BB58737211D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2021-2-26, at 11:09, Fernando Gont wrote: > Out of curiosity: has the experience been documented such that e.g. = other groups could learn/reproduce the adjustments you referred to? I think RFC8874/8875 capture what we did. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_1F290C86-14BB-4544-82CA-BB58737211D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmA4vJYACgkQVLXDCb9w wVevxQ/9G2ou+fL02V+Nb4H0hSv/lFEmo4vHLPI64DhqP0+NDgEeVWk3u/BiZxYH q37DG0R/MD3V3qorCYrO9QqQRyu1B8DXRb4O8Vfwrt55+rL7mSw1NvL4G/VrFV2U LlWLJlnhPdIlBJNUospLxhzVzmBqOeYpy9khy2JtjQOPZzzFTMfRf8pfby8P1U9v qxTM228SyzBKBQjAEW7jg9fnVsbXiECQ2V0wUNI4+hGOn0wOsQ3FdAutK+dfZjZW 3QsE3TN48GxgfRfbs48jvpzBSpqw/eiTkaJEySsB+Mt718rTsNRV6s0q5fd8iZxo g+INhCyBot2sfWRCTn05p+Cn5ZFBE0d65GssptnBhTRiHy7wbXJYPcg4Qlu7cOwO XLnfIpAUCrzP2PPf2L8Aj/J+SPl1+2U+GMNSjwBW5WUIfqjFRpOr9VqlLNq30q0A NPAQlGkh5/bsTdeZgyP9E6TUNL/YnbMOxACkgMQoU2b+z9X0uCFO/h+oDXSDwz/q huaKme01jgtrikUO3OZblrpJOjpAIEZ3cVyJa/J1c252LCJXIfL9xfj4tWWpgWGT MclL67A4kv8vCCav4vqxGh4LrWumQbT1L6zyVS1oBfJtiHgxWpYJuI6PJGhkMQ6V q2WTV22ZEz2G5qxM3FxL/T/fvJbq5QiIESbwHRWrFrusa01FQRw= =+38g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1F290C86-14BB-4544-82CA-BB58737211D7-- From nobody Fri Feb 26 02:31:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C2C3A11CB for ; 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Fri, 26 Feb 2021 05:30:55 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-179-g81f7aba968-fm-20210222.002-g81f7aba9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3c6af809-977f-47fd-9e3b-7e098621cb54@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <939c6505-e2c5-6bfb-ab5c-ec6274738338@si6networks.com> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <8B649927-DC39-4E59-95F9-A83C3CD8F494@akamai.com> <3c5b4c2a-e770-6809-5649-76adf15c67ba@si6networks.com> <7E0F4F4E-8BD2-4D1A-B998-2F4B09DA1DF4@akamai.com> <939c6505-e2c5-6bfb-ab5c-ec6274738338@si6networks.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 21:30:36 +1100 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=1c287fcdd7f4453190a7eb2ebd155165 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:31:00 -0000 --1c287fcdd7f4453190a7eb2ebd155165 Content-Type: text/plain My experience is that a significant fraction of the discussion happens in hallways and bars, some of which I have been at, some not. The final decisions have always been made on the mailing list though. Bron On Fri, Feb 26, 2021, at 15:29, Fernando Gont wrote: > Hi, Rich, > > On 25/2/21 20:49, Salz, Rich wrote: > >> When you're changing the way of contributing, you're not > >> universally > > "reducing the barrier". -- certainly not for somebody that does't do > > git. > > > > The IETF has not changed the way people contribute. Drafts are still > > posted to the datatracker, mailing lists still exist for feedback and > > comment (and must be used for confirming consensus, etc). Just > > because there are more paths into the datatracker now. I mean, > > probably around 1985-1995 we all just FTP'd the documents we wanted > > to read. Is anyone going to argue that it's not easier now? > > Based on some comments it seems that in some cases a significant > fraction of the discussion moved to github. Hence my question. > In such a case, participants are kind of required to participate in github. > > I didn't participate much (if at all) in the recommendations regarding > the use of github in the ietf. And my assumtion was that for the most > part it was more of a "use it if deemed useful", but was assuming the > discussions that would lead to changes to remain in the mailing-lists. > > > > > >> Point taken. So... mailing list are seen as a problematic mechanism > >> to > > carry our work? > > > > For some people I think the answer is yes. It seems that overall use > > of email is declining, but it's hard to get real numbers without > > getting tangled up in email marketing newsletter business. But I > > feel like you keep trying to have me make blanket assertions and I > > don't want to do that. > > No, no. It was a honest question. Me I wasn't aware about some of the > assumptions that were mentioned in the thread... hence my questions. > > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --1c287fcdd7f4453190a7eb2ebd155165 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My experience is that a significant fraction of the discus= sion happens in hallways and bars, some of which I have been at, some no= t.

The final decisions have always been made on the maili= ng list though.

Bron

On Fri, Feb 26, 2021, at 15:29, Fernando Gont wrote:
Hi, Rich,
On 25/2/21 20:49, Salz, Rich w= rote:
>> When you're ch= anging the way of contributing, you're not
>> universally
> "reducing the barrier". -- certainly not for somebody that do= es't do
> git.
> 
> The IETF has not changed the way people contribute.&n= bsp; Drafts are still
> po= sted to the datatracker, mailing lists still exist for feedback and
<= /div>
> comment (and must be used fo= r confirming consensus, etc).  Just
> because there are more paths into the datatracker now.&= nbsp; I mean,
> probably a= round 1985-1995 we all just FTP'd the documents we wanted
> to read.  Is anyone going to argu= e that it's not easier now?
<= br>
Based on some comments it see= ms that in some cases a significant 
fraction of the discussion moved to github. Hence my questi= on.
In such a case, participa= nts are kind of required to participate in github.

I didn'= t participate much (if at all) in the recommendations regarding 
the use of github in the ietf. = And my assumtion was that for the most 
part it was more of a "use it if deemed useful", but was= assuming the 
discussio= ns that would lead to changes to remain in the mailing-lists.
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">

> 
>> Point taken. So... mailing list = are seen as a problematic mechanism
>> to
> carry= our work?
> 
> For some people I think the ans= wer is yes.  It seems that overall use
> of email is declining, but it's hard to get real num= bers without
> getting tan= gled up in email marketing newsletter business.  But I
> feel like you keep trying to have me= make blanket assertions and I
> don't want to do that.

No, no. It was a honest que= stion. Me I wasn't aware about some of the 
assumptions that were mentioned in the thread... hen= ce my questions.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando = Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E= 7492



--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, = Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmail= team.com

--1c287fcdd7f4453190a7eb2ebd155165-- From nobody Fri Feb 26 03:03:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DDB3A130F; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 03:03:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b0ia4iFomy-2; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 03:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 139A73A130E; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 03:03:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=lhozMePljKGi8wR6xJTqAj6zBHG9P0rIx2AAsKRm84w=; b=DtzsYFLPpzctVDB2SNqnJdgIZE JDSyqeksL2MZRUu9B6Mpct3ae0/vmfdQoa9h1hCRokCdzSx0udjI4uIWXoISozsFf6xZ+khkmi3z0 3HBNK7BYkV9JUmGYA4obzfhuufJnC/1Cda9P54SjmIm/31mJ7iD+LeUqUK67mqtAOBK+vr6W660qD 6Pcs63UU99X+H32d5NEnjpdtHa9eHrGOXMT2CCh8V4KjNmxl9b1ut2MWiwIE/9ArsRMMuLT+RHppM +nP8k2rGQmCmdJred9ptsK2ybf5YiHIZv/J8FBlg3vP7QaSL2o7GjgDUpyYKCPBeP625Wep2mespe GQD3nV2Q==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=47300 helo=[192.168.0.69]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1lFats-0000Py-A7; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:03:12 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:03:07 +0000 Cc: Fernando Gont , GENDISPATCH List , "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <16404602-982E-41D1-97B4-64A3A2944E4A@csperkins.org> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> To: Theresa Enghardt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:03:18 -0000 > On 25 Feb 2021, at 16:16, Theresa Enghardt wrote: >=20 > Hi Fernando, >=20 > On 2/24/21 10:13 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> [=E2=80=A6] >>=20 >>> that the Working Group can get ideas from. For instance, a few years >>> ago, we have had several academics present their work in TAPS, and = that >>> was definitely a lot of helpful input. Not sure how common this = style of >>> contribution is, but I think it does happen especially when a = smaller WG >>> is in an "early stage" where they benefit from a lot of input and = ideas. >>> (Of course, a lot of work that is relevant to IETF Working Groups is >>> getting presented at IRTF sessions, e.g., MAPRG, IRTF Open, or at = ANRW. >>> But I can understand if you consider these out of scope for your = document.) >>=20 >> I think what you describe is definitely within scope. >>=20 >> That said, in my experienve, in many cases groups seem to receive = points for peer-reviewed conference papers, but not for IRTF/IETF-style = of participation, unfortunately. So making it to the IETF will typically = be harder (in terms of funding) than e.g. attending to an IEEE or ACM = conference. >=20 > That is true. With ANRW, you at least get to present a short paper or = poster at a workshop, so that's a step in the right direction. >=20 > Good point about publications. RFCs are publications, too, so there is = definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. However, = usually the entire process takes much longer than writing academic = papers. And I'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to = papers, but at least in the part that I know, I would say they're = valued. I think this is very much country dependent. The UK government, for = example, explicitly evaluates impact beyond academia when assessing = university research, so promotion committees generally value standards = work, but that=E2=80=99s certainly not true everywhere. Colin > I think some academic institutions explicitly value it if researchers = give "input to practice", demonstrate the applicability of their work, = etc. So that could be used as a reason for presenting at IETF meetings, = too, though most academic institutions would not understand the = difference between IETF and IRTF sessions. >=20 > You're welcome and good luck with the next revision! >=20 > Best, > Theresa >=20 --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Fri Feb 26 03:56:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ADB13A13F2; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 03:56:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Fri, 26 Feb 2021 12:56:27 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 12:56:27 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1409084122.91528.1614340587436@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_91526_437098220.1614340587423" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:56:33 -0000 ------=_Part_91526_437098220.1614340587423 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 25/02/2021 21:49 Eric Rescorla ha scritto: > > I do think it made it easier for people to get involved, in part because it was easy to offer small changes without subscribing to a list, etc. It certainly made it easier to accept such contributions. > My experience is the exact opposite - there were a number of times in which I wanted to propose text for a document, but then I was pointed at Github, and I am not at ease with it and did not have a lot of time for it. So I gave up or, rather than working on actual text, I just replied on the mailing list making my points and suggestions in a more general way. Unfortunately, this makes your points less likely to be included, since the authors would have to make the effort to write the text for you, or, even if you provide text on the mailing list, the effort to copy and turn it into a pull request. Some do, some don't; and even if they do, you are placed in the difficult position to ask someone else to do "your" job. Even admitting that you may need help with the tools, in this environment, is a bit scary - it's like admitting in public that you are not "good enough" to participate in the IETF. This gets even worse if you know that your contribution is "diverse" enough for you to expect that some of the regular participants will not receive it well. In the end, as Lars correctly pointed out, this is a tradeoff. There are instruments that are easier to use for some groups but harder for others. There are instruments that work better with certain types of contributions, and other instruments that work better with other types. So, the choice of instruments is not neutral - it can tilt the balance in participation. It may indeed be that Github is optimal, maximizing contributions from the people that have more to say. It may also be that it is functional to the preservation of the current leadership and culture of the organization, making it difficult for people with other backgrounds to participate effectively. I do not feel expert enough in the IETF to make a judgement on this, but the issue is clearly there. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_91526_437098220.1614340587423 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 25/02/2021 21:49 Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> ha scritto:

I do think it made it easier for people to get involved, in part because it was easy to offer small changes without subscribing to a list, etc. It certainly made it easier to accept such contributions.
My experience is the exact opposite - there were a number of times in which I wanted to propose text for a document, but then I was pointed at Github, and I am not at ease with it and did not have a lot of time for it. So I gave up or, rather than working on actual text, I just replied on the mailing list making my points and suggestions in a more general way. Unfortunately, this makes your points less likely to be included, since the authors would have to make the effort to write the text for you, or, even if you provide text on the mailing list, the effort to copy and turn it into a pull request.

Some do, some don't; and even if they do, you are placed in the difficult position to ask someone else to do "your" job. Even admitting that you may need help with the tools, in this environment, is a bit scary - it's like admitting in public that you are not "good enough" to participate in the IETF. This gets even worse if you know that your contribution is "diverse" enough for you to expect that some of the regular participants will not receive it well.

In the end, as Lars correctly pointed out, this is a tradeoff. There are instruments that are easier to use for some groups but harder for others. There are instruments that work better with certain types of contributions, and other instruments that work better with other types. So, the choice of instruments is not neutral - it can tilt the balance in participation.

It may indeed be that Github is optimal, maximizing contributions from the people that have more to say. It may also be that it is functional to the preservation of the current leadership and culture of the organization, making it difficult for people with other backgrounds to participate effectively. I do not feel expert enough in the IETF to make a judgement on this, but the issue is clearly there.

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_91526_437098220.1614340587423-- From nobody Fri Feb 26 04:05:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57793A1410; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 04:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BO0W86vbh1LZ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 04:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pch.net (keriomail.pch.net [206.220.231.84]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5056D3A1411; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 04:04:59 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: cGNoLm5ldA== Received: from [10.19.48.6] ([69.166.14.2]) by mail.pch.net (Kerio Connect 9.2.7 patch 3) with ESMTPS (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits)); Fri, 26 Feb 2021 04:04:56 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0B451486-62AC-4EC5-81F0-7D99FA8D9793"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Bill Woodcock X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <1409084122.91528.1614340587436@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 13:04:54 +0100 Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-Id: <1316D089-20B0-4A4E-9DD5-24E0243D1DC2@pch.net> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <1409084122.91528.1614340587436@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> To: Vittorio Bertola X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 12:05:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0B451486-62AC-4EC5-81F0-7D99FA8D9793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 26, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Vittorio Bertola = wrote: > There were a number of times in which I wanted to propose text for a = document, but then I was pointed at Github Eh, don=E2=80=99t let the code-monkeys get you down. If they knew what = they were talking about, they=E2=80=99d say it in IRR poem records. :-) > I just replied on the mailing list making my points and suggestions. This is the way. -Bill --Apple-Mail=_0B451486-62AC-4EC5-81F0-7D99FA8D9793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEm6XJ0FdpKWJHso4lb6RwSyiLf4cFAmA44+YACgkQb6RwSyiL f4e7ERAAnQ/8yEvhPJkyoYL7wVn6MqX2AJqA3pg0CknpfTNUSGo7EkO0g48RpRlG cxCVaI//cZsiGrC7BDYf39RqZXM6QG+ZE7h74x9NZ7yen7wkGe9Jl4dDAM+19GE1 fVU5F+wvYEm+EUT4mzU0QulPHuDVLZiCjyE4j8NSDTyGFm9ckTGHwg5fenDyaha0 c7lndqIyVL77d2hcb2+3p7hoKgUxfzRhoKO45pJAo1AyxJFVZfS0rU03uoeTWpaW naIn5tZT8HbCFLQuWJzjbCeMHn8tGSd84NqAcUryfM9oQAXmjGo6dUd9owW0GLQO 7MuBCetLA4VHAIIFrLSRwX/cO2adUwKaTuubu26Npq4CLDCe+5J1job272RPflNs 87Y+QzBAIHqRmsQsZnlXl3xHf0LdrZ006SBzhaqZJnqVrmJfDIPTf2oBl/tu7Ip3 UAksMXKnSAcAuBUamDOVk2qq9mGbWYyU1XOiPG7dBo3OZeQKhrQD45MXSsA2CZD0 raK0jFu5qDKkMo6TVVE0mJGklHysDk+B37BXmTxHbb/TELQhuWgpA0777MLC9Nve JUC1JHn8OTGZe4kGk4qCTlYwf7MkmwRdqtHbeAdtq0+NkTgwgRTufDmiZooBa4LY ++hWQo1I+TBEoyCYW2DYR9x0cZp4k8KzQGXI2j+Db0pvyTCMZ6U= =Pyl9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0B451486-62AC-4EC5-81F0-7D99FA8D9793-- From nobody Sat Feb 27 03:01:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344423A1694 for ; 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Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:01:02 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-141-gf094924a34-fm-20210210.001-gf094924a Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <452dc779-fc96-40f1-8193-6a562b5e4107@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1409084122.91528.1614340587436@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <1409084122.91528.1614340587436@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:00:00 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:01:05 -0000 On Fri, Feb 26, 2021, at 22:56, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > My experience is the exact opposite - there were a number of times in > which I wanted to propose text for a document, but then I was pointed > at Github, and I am not at ease with it and did not have a lot of time > for it. So I gave up or, So anyone who asked you to submit an issue or write a pull request should be aware that sometimes they too need to make some effort. As a request, asking someone to contribute on GitHub is fine. It isn't mandatory though. If you are able to, or you plan to contribute often, taking the effort makes it a lot harder for editors to take your input, track it, and integrate changes. However, if you don't, then it is best for all involved if the editors do the work of opening issues and writing pull requests (if that is how they manage the document). We did that for the IESG with QUIC, and for those who were unfamiliar with the process. The goal should be always to take good input when it is offered. However, it always pays to make your input easier to act on. Clear, actionable input is more likely to result in actions, human nature being what it is. It is meeting in the middle. Editors are volunteering their effort too. What we have found is that the discussion is sometimes more work to manage, for both editors and those involved, particularly when it comes to negotiating specific text. But generally the results are far superior. To take an example, there was a discussion about the operational implications of path MTU discovery in QUIC. The initial issue was not especially clear to everyone involved, and the proposed text was not perfect either, but the resulting discussion clarified everything and the final text is crisp, precise, broadly acceptable, and - from my perspective - excellent. I have seen that work on a mailing list before and frankly, it is not so different in the end. Both methods can produce these good outcomes. I find the mailing list version quite a bit less efficient, that is all. What really differs is that on the mailing list, you won't get that sort of engagement on every change. With QUIC, we had that level of engagement on every sentence that was added. So yeah, it cost more, in several ways. One way being that it was not suitable for casual engagement, something that I think needs work, as not every document needs that same level of intensity. I am happy with the results and would recommend the process. Understanding its limitations is important though. We are still learning as a community, even if some of us are very familiar with it. Collectively knowing what is possible, what works, what to avoid, and when, will take some time. I can't, however, accept any of the arguments presented so far that imply that this is bad enough to stop. And the suggestion that this is, or even might be, inherently exclusionary is one I just don't see. Our goal has always been to offer more ways to engage. At worst, I would suggest that your experiences are part of us all learning together. From nobody Sat Feb 27 06:54:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E06D3A0935 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:54:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n_zCCQ5KoLCJ for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90E713A0927 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6322DBE24; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:53:56 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jl_P7SXfKIwX; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:53:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8CC62BE1C; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:53:54 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1614437634; bh=9qWM8nzAZxyuV6teyHxdZt3eegjRFHfpVbHenGi+Mlc=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=pacyCxZjDfNzJtHo7tLo1woqvJmVKIKgksGnMaWS2z7aVndVbW0lQu7zg+CD7+ma8 E1rT6Ri4BriqIsfxQ65THEKaelIA/ejUaNKugzqMi/y7u16f2GRQk/ne854zni/Ttk gQK9dGGRjG14l1MHLzU/QNIB/2KnzjijSb85P/2Q= To: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <1409084122.91528.1614340587436@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <452dc779-fc96-40f1-8193-6a562b5e4107@beta.fastmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:53:52 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <452dc779-fc96-40f1-8193-6a562b5e4107@beta.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0WP8SMYKQLVN48frTdvQ9tkbhjn21IKec" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:54:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0WP8SMYKQLVN48frTdvQ9tkbhjn21IKec Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="SxeSGlBW6SX46me2zhG5WSiIiOOcSzozO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <1409084122.91528.1614340587436@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <452dc779-fc96-40f1-8193-6a562b5e4107@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <452dc779-fc96-40f1-8193-6a562b5e4107@beta.fastmail.com> --SxeSGlBW6SX46me2zhG5WSiIiOOcSzozO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------70A81DAEF7C35849C48149D9" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------70A81DAEF7C35849C48149D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I'm generally fine with use of github, and agree with Martin that we're learning and need to learn more how to handle that better, esp. wrt managing discussion on mailing lists vs. in github issues. One point though... On 27/02/2021 11:00, Martin Thomson wrote: > And the suggestion that this is, or even might be, inherently > exclusionary is one I just don't see. I think it can be exclusionary but I'd not say "inherently" though. If one has a bunch of people in similar TZs who are all happy working via github issues then that can very easily exclude participants who prefer working via the mailing list who are not in a close enough TZ. I've experienced that when it results in dozens of github notification emails only a few of which are human readable, the net result of which is that the discussion has moved on before excluded participants had a chance to contribute and/or where it's too much work to try extract the real discussion from the notification chaff. I'd say it'd be good to try experiment with ways to bring the mailing list back into discussion in such situations whenever there's an "interesting" flurry of github exchanges that seems to come to resolution amongst those active on github. It's probably unrealistic for WG chairs to spot all such events, so would depend on participants themselves who want to be inclusive like that. Cheers, S. --------------70A81DAEF7C35849C48149D9 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmA6XQAFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+rn 5w/+OhzA29vuF55GffaC6F1H7gULmWsHE28YZLFRh8RZEc46c5VPxJd3+JwN7c2ZlyrKI0RGciF3 64sTwMNubLI2cGKR6U0zCySiV1Y++kDiMreSmnoKDKlTXkFmlJC7PNSwANsx0PALIKS62GLQ5eq1 uKKTdBadAhGEabeUP22Xq0PcVP+v64KRjRWI/PMlntUxN8Ai2ewH+naOGpiYnUCvbNyPMMqakIeB NIzozjQAat/GGyaA3pmAnfY8MfSl0klm0X+6NM06s2pq91rUipaGPWzIiE+g1BlfS9NswSRIF9ph Ctfd1oNl1WYsMeItkKeaHFhVoC33j/Z//hxIiNTf1rU6f716cEHPduny3ehmvbbSquH4M5rK8BRb uXLcl64XtmUwMWwa3ddZIsqMeo2O/Y4uTcNUUA7Xo+/j+xm1VoE7+QanmP0AgQObW0Azny/ReuGE LUMAu/UytPRhGcUcsER79ZR5p34V8WfhRt153ZQ1E/U8Hp9cVD65XjMc+f6PCfZP5pQsvLPysN8A ENDu64Zi3nAbZFP7sJwKzIEoDiroj4Z5JjJgN8Ce3Y4BYtNYBH7LUpY4u6WK0353T+H33vVcQOwL pDXc1ViZgpponvwAcJA50oPClEecltPikcuzm8cGJ3zjcR9ztxWORxeYEA1GKTmIM7FYy/Fu8leJ K84= =2ga3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0WP8SMYKQLVN48frTdvQ9tkbhjn21IKec-- From nobody Sat Feb 27 09:15:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC283A0E83 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DZbsvEH9GLin for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-f178.google.com (mail-yb1-f178.google.com [209.85.219.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C538E3A0E82 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f178.google.com with SMTP id l8so12268337ybe.12 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:15:24 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PAgCytnLmvepx02yhs+Th95PyoNkybkuDigzV/Whe9M=; b=e2a6JLEoqNOY3VymgSgIgG2QUFVRkccmpMBrU7+fg/GOgrkJBwdxRZmngLS9mjvcn+ 2UTwiF2UW3umT0VjXDsi3CTTaBAA920EQRBlEQcnhVriCFYQD7SUUwNpXUkp/Cc4nt4P aU7wzPrUfrW9JWlfJeYwP6N0bNLWqdCHVMIBZz6WWjWJofOcW9VF1IeCZWVnH5i4aIb7 0rxJ50PGzgsTXMKhjLP1+vhA2uQReX3JkBl1RVUpBasHsHtidjWGktzaciJqfbRXA2fw +NKos+mRDcWBmZ6bi7nWYpFMyxgeQXPQpP5nXdrGSbfitBCxki3S4gZnBHwR8AwnEBgL 5m6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530DgrEYbtvqP6RZbkv5pSHpHBK5LWFp6zbc47d+oghp/z34L6AT cI3bBvQ/A/3kdoY+nznBj+0x+y0GdCLJbuSRPbPw/Sicq3w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqQk3/qedGnXxjCciag0srGKbJofcNgRrUe2+e186NZU2A+KOUwkaYKbcQYzLM7ayPdkuyYH38r7SW13VfpYw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:50d8:: with SMTP id e207mr11435872ybb.56.1614446123789; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:15:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:15:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Cc: Andrew Campling , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b7b0be05bc548782" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:15:26 -0000 --000000000000b7b0be05bc548782 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Barbara's thoughts got me thinking about how the experience of creating EV certs is relevant to TERM. Being the person who sent out the invites to the meeting that led to the creation of EV, I think I know what they were originally supposed to be about which was essentially a way to stop the 'race to the bottom' in certificate validation by establishing an industry-wide minimum validation criteria establishing accountability that was essentially VeriSign Class 3. Going in, we expected that there would of course have to be changes that forced us to do stuff differently as well because thats part of the game. But we expected EV would be essentially OV and so did everyone else. After we got started, we suddenly realized that nothing of the sort was possible and the rules were going to have to be much more restrictive for one simple reason: When we wrote the VeriSign Class 3 policy and practices we were writing rules for ourselves to avoid US screwing up. We weren't trying to stop ourselves finding loopholes. When we started writing EV, we had to write rules that nobody could then do an end run around. And the result was a lot less friendly to customers and to CAs. TERM is in a similar situation. We are going to need to deal with a lot of cross cultural issues and even within the Anglosphere. Take the OK hand gesture. Until a few years ago it had no facsist associations whatsoever. Then a group of racists on 4-Chan decided to start using the gesture 'pretending' it to be a racist gang sign. And of course the minute that racists started flashing it as a gang sign, it became a racist gang sign. And of course, deliberately insulting people and then telling them they must treat it as a joke or they will 'look stupid', is simply a way to double down on the insult. Bully, bully. swagger, swagger, sneer, sneer, oh why are we being cancelled? Meaning is determined by usage. Who is using the term, why they are using it, matter. And yes, there is a partisan political dimension to this. I didn't remove the terms 'master' etc.' from the Mesh specifications because I was concerned they might cause offense. I removed them because I want to make absolutely clear that I oppose the fascist seditionists who stormed the US Capitol on January 6th. When a bully appears and attempts to appropriate the US flag as his own personal banner, there has to be resistance. Defining the exact means by which the US flag is to be worshiped by taking away the career of the man who defied him was a way of claiming sole ownership of the interpretation of the nation's symbols. Which was of course the reason we needed to demolish the monuments to their ideology. The IETF has made its political position on censorship and privacy clear. And now a very large number of US corporations are making their political position opposing racism clear. --000000000000b7b0be05bc548782 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bar= bara's thoughts=C2=A0got me thinking about how the experience of creati= ng EV certs is relevant to TERM.

Being the person who sent out the invites to the meeting that led t= o the creation of EV, I think I know what they were originally supposed to = be about which was essentially a way to stop the 'race to the bottom= 9; in certificate validation by establishing an industry-wide minimum valid= ation criteria establishing accountability that was essentially VeriSign Cl= ass 3.

Going in, we expec= ted that there would of course have to be changes that forced us to do stuf= f differently as well because thats=C2=A0part of the game. But we expected= =C2=A0EV would be essentially OV and so did everyone=C2=A0else.


After we got started, we suddenly realized tha= t nothing of the sort was possible and the rules were going to have to be m= uch more restrictive for one simple reason: When we wrote the VeriSign Clas= s 3 policy and practices we were writing rules for ourselves to avoid US sc= rewing up. We weren't trying to stop ourselves finding loopholes. When = we started writing EV, we had to write rules that nobody could then do an e= nd run around. And the result was a lot less friendly to customers and to C= As.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">TERM is in a similar = situation. We are going to need to deal with a lot of cross cultural issues= and even within the Anglosphere.

Take the OK hand gesture. Until a few years ago it had no facsis= t associations whatsoever. Then a group of racists on 4-Chan decided to sta= rt using the gesture 'pretending' it to be a racist gang sign. And = of course the minute that racists started flashing it as a gang sign, it be= came a racist gang sign. And of course, deliberately insulting people and t= hen telling them they must treat it as a joke or they will 'look stupid= ', is simply a way to double down on the insult. Bully, bully. swagger,= swagger, sneer, sneer, oh why are we being cancelled?


Meaning is determined by usage. Who is using the term,= why they are using it, matter.

And yes, there is a partisan political dimension to this. I didn'= ;t remove the terms 'master' etc.' from the Mesh specifications= because I was concerned they might cause offense. I removed them because I= want to make absolutely clear that I oppose the fascist seditionists who s= tormed the US Capitol on January 6th.

When a bully appears and attempts to appropriate=C2=A0the US f= lag as his own personal banner, there has to be resistance. Defining the ex= act means by which the US flag is to be worshiped by taking away the career= of the man who defied him was a way of claiming sole ownership of the inte= rpretation of the nation's symbols. Which was of course the reason we n= eeded to demolish the monuments to their ideology.

The IETF has made its political position on censo= rship and privacy clear. And now a very large number of US corporations are= making their political position opposing racism clear.
--000000000000b7b0be05bc548782-- From nobody Sat Feb 27 19:01:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2057E3A0927 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:01:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tPYwVp-HMSUi for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D1463A095F for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:104b:2ea2:8c42:2915] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:104b:2ea2:8c42:2915]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5307280598; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 03:00:48 +0000 (UTC) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , "STARK, BARBARA H" Cc: Andrew Campling , GENDISPATCH List References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 00:00:34 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 03:01:17 -0000 Hello , Phillip, On 27/2/21 14:15, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: [....] > > TERM is in a similar situation. We are going to need to deal with a lot > of cross cultural issues and even within the Anglosphere. > > Take the OK hand gesture. Until a few years ago it had no facsist > associations whatsoever. Then a group of racists on 4-Chan decided to > start using the gesture 'pretending' it to be a racist gang sign. And of > course the minute that racists started flashing it as a gang sign, it > became a racist gang sign. And of course, deliberately insulting people > and then telling them they must treat it as a joke or they will 'look > stupid', is simply a way to double down on the insult. Bully, bully. > swagger, swagger, sneer, sneer, oh why are we being cancelled? > > > Meaning is determined by usage. Who is using the term, why they are > using it, matter. I'm not sure what this means. That said, given the number of countries and cultures on this globe, I doubt anyone could really expect that people should be aware about stuff like the stuff you're referencing. For instance, I don't know what's 4-chan (some online forum?), or even what you call the "ok sign" -- here we probably have at least to different signs for it. In a multi-cultural environment, you probably *need* to apply Postel's principle. > And yes, there is a partisan political dimension to this. I didn't > remove the terms 'master' etc.' from the Mesh specifications because I > was concerned they might cause offense. I removed them because I want to > make absolutely clear that I oppose the fascist seditionists who stormed > the US Capitol on January 6th. I believe that our ability to do useful work may be endangered if our documents are going to become "political statements". (quite the contrary, there reason for which I'd be keen to avoid specific terms is for the possibility that might offend e.g. a fellow colleague) > When a bully appears and attempts to appropriate the US flag as his own > personal banner, there has to be resistance. Defining the exact means by > which the US flag is to be worshiped by taking away the career of the > man who defied him was a way of claiming sole ownership of the > interpretation of the nation's symbols. Which was of course the reason > we needed to demolish the monuments to their ideology. This thread was started in the hopes of fostering diversity and inclusiveness in the IETF. I don't think discussion of USA internal political affairs is of use for such purpose. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Sat Feb 27 19:07:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F4363A0994 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:07:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mYl-P6IUEFae for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 939673A0990 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:104b:2ea2:8c42:2915] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:104b:2ea2:8c42:2915]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20588280791; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 03:07:45 +0000 (UTC) To: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <446A8D6B-E624-49E0-B67E-D1F8AFC794E2@lastpresslabel.com> <28ac1e86-f641-b9e8-0f61-6ff442feaa90@si6networks.com> <25E1B1D5-E8F1-4053-A1E0-6B2948577E84@akamai.com> <3a8dca6d-0aca-d578-0f7a-3f68e2811bad@si6networks.com> <9FBF7792-8507-45F2-B06C-2173BCDF7D4C@akamai.com> <4fc62af0-cbf0-c923-5e24-fc0dfc1de996@si6networks.com> <1409084122.91528.1614340587436@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <452dc779-fc96-40f1-8193-6a562b5e4107@beta.fastmail.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3bdd39ea-4384-af5f-e3fc-5a58f8113e71@gont.com.ar> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 00:07:35 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <452dc779-fc96-40f1-8193-6a562b5e4107@beta.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 03:07:51 -0000 On 27/2/21 08:00, Martin Thomson wrote: [...] > > The goal should be always to take good input when it is offered. However, it always pays to make your input easier to act on. Probably the key issue is discussion vs pull requests. Pull-requests are certainly very actionable and nice (assumming a documents is being managed with github). OTOH, it would be nice if the discussion that lead to the pull request involves the broader audience. If mailing-lists are supposed to be required for consensus, then it would seem that a reasonable expectation is that discussions take place on the mailing-lists -- this doesn't preclude pull requests to eventually apply changes to a document. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Sat Feb 27 19:53:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A550F3A0ACB for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:53:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SlzG-buRFcjh for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-f182.google.com (mail-yb1-f182.google.com [209.85.219.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C15F03A0AC5 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f182.google.com with SMTP id c131so13271370ybf.7 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:53:55 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AeYdd4ebC+PA3z65fgvEMnysweKPO9CVVXN3rYCkl/E=; b=akgsDBeZ00gYnBI79tqXazgzlx9oukJwVca16V6538s8zyY4ea/6ZBs7YfJfGOSSBV /4sChcieXCIWJI3m6wWIRQX4iBCBONi09LZlX3GRoWA2CqLhnCKPpglCmOjA6T9+hg29 /6cmYtcoVKKHo3yyovWFmyKmZM/ayT40kQX8QQbQhZgx25702os5njDRbS4XfDNuSIy6 fZ87qPFxYNtL2/plu/+N/66BbxXYGdOhrDBjIpv+JlZlH8GXiMl+1YoNKJJCYRxkhLcC K3sMKUPWh31NzkOWFP8uK1ZaSINO12G370TrjHe7NyHBY5Ud9M/U+WKkF4L81Ncx8Of0 jefQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334uf4PYaTAPoE+DN0EtBXYPhTQ5VBIbj1Lhk1+89Bw3k3WCQV5 xGC34D0Gwy5S8fJl7RiijDijQZHy1MBVKqZYugg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyMiZ8FGcL2RN6KzuswRvyfO39cY7mSP4uASIknec607YIQ/oKHRqdMDjS18RbX8MHzJg60DHlps6y/H7/6+Fw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:ad67:: with SMTP id l39mr15220892ybe.172.1614484433638; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:53:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:53:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" , Andrew Campling , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000299b9a05bc5d7357" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 03:53:58 -0000 --000000000000299b9a05bc5d7357 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 10:01 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > Hello , Phillip, > > On 27/2/21 14:15, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > [....] > > > > TERM is in a similar situation. We are going to need to deal with a lot > > of cross cultural issues and even within the Anglosphere. > > > > Take the OK hand gesture. Until a few years ago it had no facsist > > associations whatsoever. Then a group of racists on 4-Chan decided to > > start using the gesture 'pretending' it to be a racist gang sign. And of > > course the minute that racists started flashing it as a gang sign, it > > became a racist gang sign. And of course, deliberately insulting people > > and then telling them they must treat it as a joke or they will 'look > > stupid', is simply a way to double down on the insult. Bully, bully. > > swagger, swagger, sneer, sneer, oh why are we being cancelled? > > > > > > Meaning is determined by usage. Who is using the term, why they are > > using it, matter. > > I'm not sure what this means. That said, given the number of countries > and cultures on this globe, I doubt anyone could really expect that > people should be aware about stuff like the stuff you're referencing. > Oh I am pretty sure most people understood the point. > For instance, I don't know what's 4-chan (some online forum?), or even > what you call the "ok sign" -- here we probably have at least to > different signs for it. > Again, you seem to have got my point. And none of that changes Wittgenstein's point that meaning is usage and the reason certain symbols become offensive is that some groups decide to use them for the purpose of giving offense. There was nothing offensive about the penitents robes of the la Borriquita brotherhood until Hollywood decided to adopt them as the uniform of the Klu Klux Klan which at the time had been extinct for decades. Today, they are almost universally understood as a hate symbol. > And yes, there is a partisan political dimension to this. I didn't > > remove the terms 'master' etc.' from the Mesh specifications because I > > was concerned they might cause offense. I removed them because I want to > > make absolutely clear that I oppose the fascist seditionists who stormed > > the US Capitol on January 6th. > > I believe that our ability to do useful work may be endangered if our > documents are going to become "political statements". > That is inescapable in an environment where people have been told they must take sides. (quite the contrary, there reason for which I'd be keen to avoid > specific terms is for the possibility that might offend e.g. a fellow > colleague) > It is not about merely giving offense. This is about the use of words to tell people that they are less important than others. > > When a bully appears and attempts to appropriate the US flag as his own > > personal banner, there has to be resistance. Defining the exact means by > > which the US flag is to be worshiped by taking away the career of the > > man who defied him was a way of claiming sole ownership of the > > interpretation of the nation's symbols. Which was of course the reason > > we needed to demolish the monuments to their ideology. > > This thread was started in the hopes of fostering diversity and > inclusiveness in the IETF. > > I don't think discussion of USA internal political affairs is of use for > such purpose. > The rise of populist authoritarianism was hardly limited to one country. And while the role of the Internet and social media were rather different to that being asserted by some, we certainly played a role The reason I am bringing up the political context directly is that is the only thing that makes these proposals important. We would not be making expensive changes to APIs if this was merely about offense. The reason that we are getting rid of terms like 'master' and 'slave' in protocol specifications is not some urge to follow some abstract left wing fashion. The reason we are eliminating 'master' and 'slave' is because there has been a resurgence of support for the racism and last month a white supremacist carried the banner of the slaver confederacy through the US capitol. --000000000000299b9a05bc5d7357 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Feb 27, 2= 021 at 10:01 PM Fernando Gont <f= ernando@gont.com.ar> wrote:
Hello , Phillip,

On 27/2/21 14:15, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
[....]
>
> TERM is in a similar situation. We are going to need to deal with a lo= t
> of cross cultural issues and even within the Anglosphere.
>
> Take the OK hand gesture. Until a few years ago it had no facsist
> associations whatsoever. Then a group of racists on 4-Chan decided to =
> start using the gesture 'pretending' it to be a racist gang si= gn. And of
> course the minute that racists started flashing it as a gang sign, it =
> became a racist gang sign. And of course, deliberately insulting peopl= e
> and then telling them they must treat it as a joke or they will 'l= ook
> stupid', is simply a way to double down on the insult. Bully, bull= y.
> swagger, swagger, sneer, sneer, oh why are we being cancelled?
>
>
> Meaning is determined by usage. Who is using the term, why they are > using it, matter.

I'm not sure what this means.=C2=A0 That said, given the number of coun= tries
and cultures on this globe, I doubt anyone could really expect that
people should be aware about stuff like the stuff you're referencing.

Oh I am pretty sure most people understood the point.
<= /div>

=C2=A0
For instance, I don't know what's 4-chan (some online forum?), or e= ven
what you call the "ok sign" -- here we probably have at least to =
different signs for it.

Again, you seem to have got my poin= t.

And none of that changes Wittgenstein's point that= meaning is usage and the reason certain symbols become offensive is that s= ome groups decide to use them for the purpose of giving offense. There was = nothing offensive about the penitents=C2=A0robes of the=C2=A0la Borr= iquita brotherhood until Hollywood decided to adopt them as the uniform of = the Klu Klux Klan which at the time had been extinct for decades. Today, th= ey are almost universally understood as a hate symbol.

=

> And yes, there is a partisan political dimension to this. I didn't=
> remove the terms 'master' etc.' from the Mesh specificatio= ns because I
> was concerned they might cause offense. I removed them because I want = to
> make absolutely clear that I oppose the fascist seditionists who storm= ed
> the US Capitol on January 6th.

I believe that our ability to do useful work may be endangered if our
documents are going to become "political statements".

That is inescapable in an environment where people have been told they= must take sides.


(quite the contrary, there reason for which I'd be keen to avoid
specific terms is for the possibility that might offend e.g. a fellow
colleague)

It is not about merely giving offense. This is a= bout the use of words to tell people that they are less important than othe= rs.

=C2=A0
> When a bully appears and attempts to appropriate=C2=A0the US flag as h= is own
> personal banner, there has to be resistance. Defining the exact means = by
> which the US flag is to be worshiped by taking away the career of the =
> man who defied him was a way of claiming sole ownership of the
> interpretation of the nation's symbols. Which was of course the re= ason
> we needed to demolish the monuments to their ideology.

This thread was started in the hopes of fostering diversity and
inclusiveness in the IETF.

I don't think discussion of USA internal political affairs is of use fo= r
such purpose.

The rise of populist authoritarianism was hardly l= imited to one country. And while the role of the Internet and social media = were rather different to that being asserted by some, we certainly played a= role

The reason I am bri= nging up the political context directly is that is the only thing that make= s these proposals important. We would not be making expensive changes to AP= Is if this was merely about offense. The reason that we are getting rid of = terms like 'master' and 'slave' in protocol specifications = is not some urge to follow some abstract left wing fashion. The reason we a= re eliminating 'master' and 'slave' is because there has be= en a resurgence of support for the racism and last month a white supremacis= t carried the banner of the slaver confederacy through the US capitol.
--000000000000299b9a05bc5d7357-- From nobody Sat Feb 27 19:58:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6D83A0B01 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:58:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RwwcmFEck8XC for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 131443A0AE1 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 19:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7547437 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:58:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=q/DqzYgmEj9sDL72DgD18wGq7iw0d6APEyS0VJ022 jg=; b=iSaSoAe89lpFypfY8bEOb57iQ3UqCna+TEkLEPz3gOfQqXrgl3cf9PtWo AGLYyhqesJyivNsLHp6g5YZd9NokhrvyL88tcg2MDCAzfxKxQDSaKWUd1SpZt0cb OpuwVDA7T54Gp2MFgOn/HwcTG+6qjxVla9yZmMrkxQhqZvVvxgPQ3lxrfO61Sg0n +IFEZSlVRUPan/hL56bIJyY65bcbYco7gGyOjxLCEfaS0AXsAbQBQl+/GLZmH8tZ FC0SLwaNQtxTO49cridcFwjQk3bbk/6WAXyEddD+HnYWJXRe22okLPoOY+TlqICj sP2nnO/JGW9TOvN8LsqN0vuUa8aHA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrleeggdeigecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkedvgefgleeule ekuefhffehgefhhfekuedvudduiefhhedufefftdfgtdekfffgnecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D48AF240057 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:58:42 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7686ed02-e6fd-78ae-4a81-b3394def5ab9@network-heretics.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:58:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 03:58:46 -0000 On 2/27/21 10:53 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > The reason I am bringing up the political context directly is that is > the only thing that makes these proposals important. We would not be > making expensive changes to APIs if this was merely about offense. The > reason that we are getting rid of terms like 'master' and 'slave' in > protocol specifications is not some urge to follow some abstract left > wing fashion. The reason we are eliminating 'master' and 'slave' is > because there has been a resurgence of support for the racism and last > month a white supremacist carried the banner of the slaver confederacy > through the US capitol. Not that I disagree entirely (and I'm as livid about the coup attempt as anyone), but I do think it's problematic if a global organization is expected to cater to conventions of US society and bend to US cultural baggage. Keith From nobody Sat Feb 27 20:12:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776F73A0B63 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:12:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ew1B82qEEEF5 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-f175.google.com (mail-yb1-f175.google.com [209.85.219.175]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 751B73A0B60 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f175.google.com with SMTP id m9so13317456ybk.8 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:12:40 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XI3sEJLMsSZ2CZIqqUpcUh1j3Jm1C5RygjoZD6Ou3aU=; b=uDE1byj6xj94J+wrGFDrEYeS8h8P/z04EupKN/ANU/K6Y4Qz3iPAMNDpJ8VjSbFieE C/LWXYha9eqwEXHMdCOWAUxEx9z3ewJ1DJ/kKLEDP/WAUQ8VSpoX0MYDC2TENwZ6o2m8 DbkK2fRtlZgNHNec8cHIDY8iP05jb91MkNpfnn+pfzGUfMjSb2np4c4wwGNeRdSvo/FR hLDSBOkikro+68dUHX4OYu4nLLshfIdRAyCij3EqFIRffTQe4g7HaGkIcHNJ43MJwgxG tpYIgHgoH0MzFiep7GBPJ8AJ0LZPP4Sh6PPR58ALOtGy4Hs5fzLUI8KfkeslMBNQFwEY kqWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533sS7p3jfTkQam7FbC87YvcC6TQuo3eAL8EFbvta5H/d4KfsLuZ PeFTclxSB8id/PK/1StvwPA6AOBdUCoyFFoVhyWMD+I2pCk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyFXuLX+w35RZGRv6Pntjf6Cg2Qw9pp+JotKptCI9UTJqXn7FBKy9JLAOxRVbQM5XDQ+AlLQZJrT3k2rZxaOg8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2ac3:: with SMTP id q186mr15442652ybq.213.1614485559668; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:12:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <7686ed02-e6fd-78ae-4a81-b3394def5ab9@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <7686ed02-e6fd-78ae-4a81-b3394def5ab9@network-heretics.com> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 23:12:28 -0500 Message-ID: To: Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000047735905bc5db6df" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 04:12:43 -0000 --00000000000047735905bc5db6df Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 10:58 PM Keith Moore wrote: > On 2/27/21 10:53 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > The reason I am bringing up the political context directly is that is > > the only thing that makes these proposals important. We would not be > > making expensive changes to APIs if this was merely about offense. The > > reason that we are getting rid of terms like 'master' and 'slave' in > > protocol specifications is not some urge to follow some abstract left > > wing fashion. The reason we are eliminating 'master' and 'slave' is > > because there has been a resurgence of support for the racism and last > > month a white supremacist carried the banner of the slaver confederacy > > through the US capitol. > > Not that I disagree entirely (and I'm as livid about the coup attempt as > anyone), but I do think it's problematic if a global organization is > expected to cater to conventions of US society and bend to US cultural > baggage. > Yes and no. It really depends on the issue. The reason this has particular valency at this particular time is peculiar to the US. The principle is universal. Most often its other countries that prod us to take sides... Like we have on censorship and privacy. But lets take an older example. Back in 500BCE, infant sacrifices were pretty much universal among the cultures bordering the mediteranean. These were disrupted somewhat by Alexander's conquests which didn't get as far as Carthage because he died. One side effect of this was that by the time Rome and Carthage came into conflict, while both cities practiced human sacrifice it was on a vastly greater scale in Carthage, a fact that Rome quickly seized on as a propaganda weapon. And once it is decided to make use of the fact that the enemy engages in some perfidious practice, well you really have to stop doing it at home. So by the time Hannibal's elephants are marching through the alps, Rome has completely stopped with the human sacrifice thing. Human sacrifice is the worst possible thing ever and the fact children were being sacrificed to Saturn only a few generations earlier is forgotten. Oh and those gladiator contests... well just don't call them human sacrifices. Point is that powerful cultural taboos don't have to be recreated in every country. Once established in one place, doing the right thing can spread quickly. --00000000000047735905bc5db6df Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 10:58 PM Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com&= gt; wrote:
On 2/= 27/21 10:53 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

> The reason I am bringing up the political context directly is that is =
> the only thing that makes these proposals important. We would not be <= br> > making expensive changes to APIs if this was merely about offense. The=
> reason that we are getting rid of terms like 'master' and '= ;slave' in
> protocol specifications is not some urge to follow some abstract left =
> wing fashion. The reason we are eliminating 'master' and '= slave' is
> because there has been a resurgence of support for the racism and last=
> month a white supremacist carried the banner of the slaver confederacy=
> through the US capitol.

Not that I disagree entirely (and I'm as livid about the coup attempt a= s
anyone), but I do think it's problematic if a global organization is expected to cater to conventions of US society and bend to US cultural
baggage.

Yes and no. It really depends on the issue. The re= ason this has particular valency at this particular time is peculiar to the= US. The principle is universal.

Most often its other countries that prod us to take sides... Like w= e have on censorship and privacy.


But lets take an older example. Back in 500BCE, infant sacrifices were pre= tty much universal among the cultures bordering the mediteranean. These wer= e disrupted somewhat by Alexander's conquests which didn't get as f= ar as Carthage because he died.

One side effect of this was that by the time Rome and Carthage came = into conflict, while both cities practiced human sacrifice it was on a vast= ly greater scale in Carthage, a fact that Rome quickly seized on as a propa= ganda weapon.
<= br>
And once it= is decided to make use of the fact that the enemy engages in some perfidio= us practice, well you really have to stop doing it at home. So by the time = Hannibal's elephants are marching through the alps, Rome has completely= stopped with the human sacrifice thing. Human sacrifice is the worst possi= ble thing ever and the fact children were being sacrificed to Saturn only a= few generations earlier is forgotten. Oh and those gladiator contests... w= ell just don't call them human sacrifices.=C2=A0

Point is that powerful cultural taboos don'= t have to be recreated in every country. Once established in one place, doi= ng the right thing can spread quickly.



=C2=A0
--00000000000047735905bc5db6df-- From nobody Sat Feb 27 20:40:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EF53A0C77 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:40:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6VPAxwJH4se2 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E5673A0C6D for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:104b:2ea2:8c42:2915] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:104b:2ea2:8c42:2915]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E2CE28076B; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 04:40:25 +0000 (UTC) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , Fernando Gont Cc: Andrew Campling , GENDISPATCH List , "STARK, BARBARA H" References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <00653a09-ece4-2e66-973e-98784bc5b191@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 01:40:10 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 04:40:36 -0000 Hello, Phillip, On 28/2/21 00:53, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 10:01 PM Fernando Gont > wrote: > > Hello , Phillip, > > On 27/2/21 14:15, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > [....] > > > > TERM is in a similar situation. We are going to need to deal with > a lot > > of cross cultural issues and even within the Anglosphere. > > > > Take the OK hand gesture. Until a few years ago it had no facsist > > associations whatsoever. Then a group of racists on 4-Chan > decided to > > start using the gesture 'pretending' it to be a racist gang sign. > And of > > course the minute that racists started flashing it as a gang > sign, it > > became a racist gang sign. And of course, deliberately insulting > people > > and then telling them they must treat it as a joke or they will > 'look > > stupid', is simply a way to double down on the insult. Bully, bully. > > swagger, swagger, sneer, sneer, oh why are we being cancelled? > > > > > > Meaning is determined by usage. Who is using the term, why they are > > using it, matter. > > I'm not sure what this means.  That said, given the number of countries > and cultures on this globe, I doubt anyone could really expect that > people should be aware about stuff like the stuff you're referencing. > > > Oh I am pretty sure most people understood the point. I was noting that *I* wasn't sure what that meant. > > For instance, I don't know what's 4-chan (some online forum?), or even > what you call the "ok sign" -- here we probably have at least to > different signs for it. > > > Again, you seem to have got my point. > > And none of that changes Wittgenstein's point that meaning is usage and > the reason certain symbols become offensive is that some groups decide > to use them for the purpose of giving offense. Symbols become offensive for what people associate with them, based on their background and personal history. If you plan to get rid of e.g. "signs" for how they may have been used by some, I bet you'd also propose to get rid of religious symbols, and national symbols such as flags -- because in the vast majority of such cases, at one point or another they have been associated with (and actually involved in) terrible things. > There was nothing > offensive about the penitents robes of the la Borriquita brotherhood > until Hollywood decided to adopt them as the uniform of the Klu Klux > Klan which at the time had been extinct for decades. Today, they are > almost universally understood as a hate symbol. Not really. A lot of people over here wouldn't associate those with the kkk. > > And yes, there is a partisan political dimension to this. I didn't > > remove the terms 'master' etc.' from the Mesh specifications > because I > > was concerned they might cause offense. I removed them because I > want to > > make absolutely clear that I oppose the fascist seditionists who > stormed > > the US Capitol on January 6th. > > I believe that our ability to do useful work may be endangered if our > documents are going to become "political statements". > > That is inescapable in an environment where people have been told they > must take sides. That doesn't make it right, or even appropriate. (Also, in the words of Wittgenstein "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent") > (quite the contrary, there reason for which I'd be keen to avoid > specific terms is for the possibility that might offend e.g. a fellow > colleague) > > It is not about merely giving offense. This is about the use of words to > tell people that they are less important than others. You are implying *intent*. In many cases (or in some places), it might be the case. In others, it might not. (see e.g. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210115-cavani-s-racism-ban-an-attack-on-a-culture or https://www.batimes.com.ar/news/sports/uruguayan-players-union-slams-english-fa-for-cavani-racism-ban.phtml ) > > When a bully appears and attempts to appropriate the US flag as > his own > > personal banner, there has to be resistance. Defining the exact > means by > > which the US flag is to be worshiped by taking away the career of > the > > man who defied him was a way of claiming sole ownership of the > > interpretation of the nation's symbols. Which was of course the > reason > > we needed to demolish the monuments to their ideology. > > This thread was started in the hopes of fostering diversity and > inclusiveness in the IETF. > > I don't think discussion of USA internal political affairs is of use > for > such purpose. > > > The rise of populist authoritarianism was hardly limited to one country. You imply that certain events are of utmost concern to the global community. Please let me note that for some of us in such global community, a large number of other events (including former presidents commonly portrayed as "patriots") have been a much larger concern. -- Please do check e.g. USA foreign policy of at least the last 50 years. > And while the role of the Internet and social media were rather > different to that being asserted by some, we certainly played a role > > The reason I am bringing up the political context directly is that is > the only thing that makes these proposals important. We would not be > making expensive changes to APIs if this was merely about offense. The > reason that we are getting rid of terms like 'master' and 'slave' in > protocol specifications is not some urge to follow some abstract left > wing fashion. The reason we are eliminating 'master' and 'slave' is > because there has been a resurgence of support for the racism and last > month a white supremacist carried the banner of the slaver confederacy > through the US capitol. I'll unfortunately repeat myself here: IETF is supposed to be a global organization. Please don't expect the global community to discuss (or even be aware of) USA domestic affairs. It's kind of ironic that in an email thread about diversity and inclusiveness in a global organization, participants are expected to discuss the domestic affairs of one -- no matter how prominent -- of the many countries where participants come from. 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Mon, 1 Mar 2021 03:37:28 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: John Wroclawski In-Reply-To: <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 22:37:25 -0500 Cc: Lars Eggert , Theresa Enghardt , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore , "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-Originating-IP: [65.96.111.179] X-ClientProxiedBy: BL0PR02CA0098.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:51::39) To DM6PR16MB3163.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:194::12) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from jmp.cambridge.schlepp.org (65.96.111.179) by BL0PR02CA0098.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:51::39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3890.20 via Frontend Transport; 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RFCs are publications, too, so there is = definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. However, usual= ly the entire process takes much longer than writing academic papers. And I= 'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to papers, but at le= ast in the part that I know, I would say they're valued. >>=20 >> One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to assig= n them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a prerequisite= to even recognizing RFCs as academic output. >=20 > Nevertheless, it is in general hard to get RFCs recognised as valuable fo= r tenure and promotion purposes, compared to more traditional publication s= treams such as highly-rated journals. That's one reason we did https://dl.a= cm.org/doi/10.1145/1672308.1672315 but I'm not sure it has had much impact. Seconding Brian=E2=80=99s comment (and Keith=E2=80=99s in the next msg), th= e DOI effort and CCR articles were excellent, necessary first steps, but by= themselves they=E2=80=99re not likely to change the landscape very much, I= think. The issue is more fundamental. Academia wishes to claim that its highest va= lue publications are =E2=80=9Coriginal research=E2=80=9D, and consensus-dri= ven standards with the stated goal of codifying existing or emerging practi= ce don=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Clook=E2=80=9D like that. My weasel words are beca= use both sides of this stereotype are sometimes truly true and sometimes, w= ell, not. But it's the perception, and it=E2=80=99ll be really hard to get = the academic publication world to weigh RFCs heavily without changing it in= some way. Which, I think, might possibly be doable. Academia does have other values -= you can get brownie points for a good survey paper, for example, because y= ou=E2=80=99re "systematizing knowledge" - and increasingly (although not as= much as one might hope) work that validates research results by showing th= e they=E2=80=99re repeatable is seen as publishable. But the trick here is = to frame this as a case that RFCs and IETF participation advance some subst= antive academic value - not just to argue that they follow the =E2=80=9Cfor= m=E2=80=9D of academic publication by being peer-reviewed and having DOIs. = I=E2=80=99m not sure if anyone=E2=80=99s every quite tried to do this, but = it seems at least potentially possible. =E2=80=94john=