From nobody Wed Jul 8 01:21:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 6tisch-security@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 6tisch-security@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CBE1A00BC; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:37:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4yS-IzfZ-aLD; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5012F1A0098; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.50.155] ([95.0.221.3]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0M8gZ3-1YpR5B13ml-00wGEP; Tue, 07 Jul 2015 14:36:23 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Alper Yegin In-Reply-To: <54EE8F2C.2030301@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:36:59 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <83C3F119-0C39-444E-AD32-81F083D13F3F@yegin.org> References: <77FA386512F0D748BC7C02C36EB1106D921776@szxeml557-mbs.china.huawei.com> <6426.1422664463@sandelman.ca> <77FA386512F0D748BC7C02C36EB1106D92CC62@szxeml557-mbs.china.huawei.com> <54E7219B.6040006@gridmerge.com> <54E72846.20807@gmx.net> <54E7824A.4040906@gmail.com> <54E86F9A.8020104@gmx.net> <54E8D442.6020909@gmail.com> <54EB4F24.7030609@gmx.net> <54EE6E31.8030609@gmail.com> <92A14CCB-ABBB-4C80-B3FA-AF21F398EA7A@gmail.com> <54EE8F2C.2030301@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:uHSwSGTQ7iy0ErhEVtlXn9Kv0vyc39tpcYAxuoDTgB/GdkdbdU3 pkTuZYpHte/OGr8PlX8tBmLHYEpJaYbhbUNlCdB9ObGAGAg+6aFShi+xiMqTVKcUQB5d8S/ XtAqeCkU6cQSo7Lvpk+DuvRO1IdwbZD/JX6ezbvacwv6UQz0ZQ3sh7Qb6ZUYHePPmjPNM/x bMT7OhFUlWdxFe0u5EOAQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:udXjHjlwXC0=:tM3MOs0bixx0M915nHQ3mR on4KF265YvgGizJJV/Ax2J9s4Wkl1CjIbotPikqMYxlRwi+UisqLlV5Pk/OoMetB2uXr+Stqv O01o3z3xu4n6JxC06sndd+AFQFj72SkB8R1ilfVJrGzKfPRufeg8UG/qyylF5XSKz70AWtk4J A/BlRGcOOQ6yURQ6TobfN11ohGZuLE9hytE6CKlt4WStNmCyeUzMpzx+n0fzM5swI43MGS6+z KOxoU5OTLzdU7l0KoGWpbJ+Atrs9iPXL7jKbzHrq3S+tn8d9NxoDdf7bVKaM/RcNAkZS38lB8 iw7fQDU4X4WVM64miaPJG9/zJr+6S+HywysB2fYz4Za7+jc9iYo2fKriqasRGAgv5kANijq7C r9v8FYr8Sj6pc3nFxloTd8vgAeUQ/6xWDCk6yer6m9suVBwhkNvljUfDlQj6/cyoY5oHBIQE1 U/FDvgsFrxqNVjvuoHjPqcmZEZyTfyyQemD6YMzgSmlFxcGDeGtI6zIBR5tGV8E19ENH8U/tu cjWYevTjf2nRdCUpf/C/cxAw02q7y1QfTnufKWn8sTFpANVE1yYsH3emZ6ZkjHc5agFRSP9oy jP32fKyvzeHo7RAgzMbARik/y2qVOKr50hAMIRqjQYqdchOLAZ4Wr7F32u8iQwjOLsttKzp5w 0VW5oBw3fKcx7Wx0wjEgU1U0J8i3hP6Z6OaxE8xmMpQ+WrA== Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Jul 2015 01:21:38 -0700 Cc: consultancy@vanderstok.org, 6tisch-security <6tisch-security@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson , "Hedanping \(Ana\)" , Robert Cragie , sarikaya@ieee.org, Ralph Droms , "6lo@ietf.org" <6lo@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig , "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [6tisch-security] [Anima] [6lo] Thread [Comments needed for Security Bootstrapping of IEEE 802.15.4 based Internet of Things] X-BeenThere: 6tisch-security@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Extended Design Team for 6TiSCH security architecture <6tisch-security.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 12:37:19 -0000 There are other relevant forums as well, such as OIC, AllSeen Alliance, = IIC, where IETF protocols are used. On Feb 26, 2015, at 5:12 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi Ralph, > On 26/02/2015 14:44, Ralph Droms wrote: >>=20 >>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 4:52 PM 2/25/15, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 26/02/2015 10:25, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: >>>=20 >>> ... >>>>>> I know nothing about Thread, whatever and whoever it is. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Here is an intro document: >>>>> http://threadgroup.org/Portals/0/documents/events/ThreadIntro.pdf >>>=20 >>> Thanks for that. It seems to have all the downsides of secretive ad = hoc >>> membership-based consortia, except for the upside of a RAND-RF IPR >>> policy. >>>=20 >>>> I think we need to clarify here that Thread Group is formed to deal >>>> with home environments. >>>>=20 >>>> Enterprise or industrial environments seem to be excluded. >>>=20 >>> So far. The boundary between this and larger building services >>> networks is pretty fuzzy, isn't it? >>>=20 >>> In any case, should we (the WGs on copy, and perhaps some others) >>> be asking the IAB to arrange a meaningful liaison with Thread? >>=20 >> What would we want to get from a liaison arrangement with Thread? >=20 > I think the main thing is to have a chance to review their specs = before > finalization. They seem to touch numerous IETF WGs directly or > indirectly (at least homenet, anima, 6lo, 6tisch and probably > 6man indirectly). Both sides have everything to gain by detecting > misfits and overlaps ASAP. >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> We had a liaison with ZigBee Alliance but let it lapse as ZA appears = to have finished its work on Z-IP. >>=20 >> We might also consider a liaison arrangement with Wi-SUN Alliance = because of the Wi-SUN FAN spec. >>=20 >> As I seem to sit at an intersection of WG chairs and IAB, I can bring = up the issue if we think there is reason to move forward. >>=20 >> - Ralph >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Back at Hannes: is there a spec for their approach to security >>> enrollment? >>>=20 >>> Brian >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 6lo mailing list >>> 6lo@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Wed Jul 8 01:21:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 6tisch-security@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 6tisch-security@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA511A1BC0; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 07:06:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mkvOLXuqYint; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 07:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D1F51A1B87; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 07:05:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t67E5GCO026849; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 16:05:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alma.local (p5DCCC755.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.199.85]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3mQls80kRQz3GWq; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 16:05:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <559BDC9A.2020604@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 16:05:14 +0200 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.1 (Macintosh/20150514) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alper Yegin References: <77FA386512F0D748BC7C02C36EB1106D921776@szxeml557-mbs.china.huawei.com> <6426.1422664463@sandelman.ca> <77FA386512F0D748BC7C02C36EB1106D92CC62@szxeml557-mbs.china.huawei.com> <54E7219B.6040006@gridmerge.com> <54E72846.20807@gmx.net> <54E7824A.4040906@gmail.com> <54E86F9A.8020104@gmx.net> <54E8D442.6020909@gmail.com> <54EB4F24.7030609@gmx.net> <54EE6E31.8030609@gmail.com> <92A14CCB-ABBB-4C80-B3FA-AF21F398EA7A@gmail.com> <54EE8F2C.2030301@gmail.com> <83C3F119-0C39-444E-AD32-81F083D13F3F@yegin.org> In-Reply-To: <83C3F119-0C39-444E-AD32-81F083D13F3F@yegin.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Jul 2015 01:21:36 -0700 Cc: consultancy@vanderstok.org, 6tisch-security <6tisch-security@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson , "Hedanping \(Ana\)" , Robert Cragie , sarikaya@ieee.org, Ralph Droms , "6lo@ietf.org" <6lo@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig , Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [6tisch-security] [Anima] [6lo] Thread [Comments needed for Security Bootstrapping of IEEE 802.15.4 based Internet of Things] X-BeenThere: 6tisch-security@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Extended Design Team for 6TiSCH security architecture <6tisch-security.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 14:06:00 -0000 Alper Yegin wrote: > There are other relevant forums as well, such as OIC, AllSeen Alliance, IIC, where IETF protocols are used. Yes, and some of them are making the same mistake of developing protocols under covers without the benefits of the expertise of a larger community. Not good. I think the rationale is that having public discussions is going to slow things down. Unfortunately, designing broken protocols is going to slow things down as well. Grüße, Carsten From nobody Wed Jul 8 01:21:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 6tisch-security@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 6tisch-security@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506A41AC3B9; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:12:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id USOTp7FewgDg; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.stillroot.org (mail.stillroot.org [176.9.132.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC0D1A009E; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.stillroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F97F413A9; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 14:12:55 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at ba.stillroot.org Received: from mail.stillroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.stillroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rakHp7gujNg3; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 14:12:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hobbykeller.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:638:80a:105:baca:3aff:fe9b:6ced]) by mail.stillroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 319A0413A1; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 14:12:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 14:12:45 +0200 From: Oliver Hahm To: Hannes Tschofenig Message-ID: <20150707121244.GE2208@hobbykeller.org> References: <54E72846.20807@gmx.net> <54E7824A.4040906@gmail.com> <54E86F9A.8020104@gmx.net> <54E8D442.6020909@gmail.com> <54EB4F24.7030609@gmx.net> <54EE6E31.8030609@gmail.com> <54F5E2FF.4040205@gmx.net> <54F6BC4B.2020101@gmx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+SfteS7bOf3dGlBC" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <54F6BC4B.2020101@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23+89 (0255b37be491) (2014-03-12) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Jul 2015 01:21:54 -0700 Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , 6tisch-security <6tisch-security@ietf.org>, "6lo@ietf.org" <6lo@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [6tisch-security] [6lo] [Anima] Thread [Comments needed for Security Bootstrapping of IEEE 802.15.4 based Internet of Things] X-BeenThere: 6tisch-security@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Extended Design Team for 6TiSCH security architecture <6tisch-security.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 12:12:58 -0000 --+SfteS7bOf3dGlBC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hannes! Am Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 09:03:23AM +0100 schrieb Hannes Tschofenig: > I was corrected after I sent the mail below to the list and learned > something new (after consulting with my co-worker Robert). >=20 > The specifications are not yet available to all members but only to a > core group of member companies. They will be made available to the them > probably in June. >=20 > If the specs become available publically I will post a link to the list. Any news on this? Cheers, Oleg --+SfteS7bOf3dGlBC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJVm8IqAAoJEItjklUqsoG25akP/0BXgG2ri9avDOBW54orHbvT qHkz0/Xsrr0En7LmuHi7bS5oIxR4OWXd+QFvm1c1ByooGSreZtx6nWsZe0TTG/G1 fFjbkeWe/pGyTqjTW3XEA8jbYJTvpnFPPG9c+h/L+5QL1uh57teVZh4aPxp+Nvcs weqo6v0Xrn1m6xa2nllVm4FX+KlBYCcYr/PRNrfx5GzRyBn6NMM3Fk3u+zFC4bFU NEHvsLJwcqES9wwzXH3HTuclu74gBIOmGsghta6Ee4Lixj6zQJbipy5fLgPVPLLA 59YQPiGF2WVTAr12J9q1S8usBqcZoMj2lPmyQFRgnh/iU1+O/+7yrv4alMJEDkvc ZIqTKR8183BPHYDpZQ/fYv0242gCU5D4SQDSFHYh73f4/ucoeGfmEb4O/ttQULnM N0vTVLS6msD8wdqH3ID4XXLLTHiPYAsPgh+0GzoDS8Hw0PJjsKIFJXWChMOgQA6N oZDDobIZNYtpdG99u6kLK/MvjbXtbfnu30BkO6MiOuWVciADejE2KJ2LF4/Bskys gdzXH4bIqa5IWKMOnobeMLiqmODr/j4mLmKec+W/YXpYDBryp1IBI5B3qZbkjrXI 0N+0t7pzZ/WWuTUhMHqvox+d2pQw6nV9MH2xmbC5qtgWGMQdbQ0YRiUl1syD/14O ci4328sB0vgBTksozkbM =TGue -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+SfteS7bOf3dGlBC--