From ludwig@sics.se Tue Jan 7 01:47:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C6F1ADFB2 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 01:47:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hueQLFkxri9y for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 01:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8001ADF8A for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 01:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s079lPk3005944 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 10:47:25 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1gxskdvb1v-1 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:47:25 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 37856400E2 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 10:47:25 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:47:24 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms080503020001050400060807" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-07_04:2014-01-07,2014-01-07,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401070019 Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 09:47:39 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080503020001050400060807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/25/2013 07:53 AM, Likepeng wrote: > Hello all, > > I received offline question about how this work (ACE) relates to DICE, > and how it's different. > > My answer is the following: > > DICE (DTLS In Constrained Environments) WG aims to define a DTLS profil= e > that is suitable for constrained environment, and define how DTLS recor= d > layer can be used to transmit multicast messages securely. The objectiv= e > is to secure message exchanges at the transport layer, and it does not > address the authenticated authorization issue. ACE aims to enable > authenticated communication between constrained devices, and enable > authorization verification to access specific resources. ACE will emplo= y > security properties of DTLS whenever possible. > > Does this address the question? > > Not quite, or rather it raises a new question for me: What do you mean with "the authenticated authorization issue"? Regards, Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms080503020001050400060807 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 1X16kPMKGvwps8F1oDhYn7jXIe46p1AuJMzLK0GIioE4JwxCFGdvpz7cg2xyTyrdBVUzSqez 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bp1yJTF0xJvH for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 03:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391771ADF7D for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 03:42:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s07BgDn3016784; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 12:42:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from dynamic-218-u.informatik.uni-bremen.de (dynamic-218-u.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32FC1F0F; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 12:42:13 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 12:42:12 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> To: Ludwig Seitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:42:26 -0000 > What do you mean with "the authenticated authorization issue=94? I=92m not Kepeng, but I read > it does not > address the authenticated authorization issue. as > it does not > address authenticated authorization beyond the authentication = functions that DTLS already provides. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From ludwig@sics.se Tue Jan 7 04:41:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3451AE009 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:41:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id esNeebzw6bkA for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590F91ADFFF for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s07CefKv002724 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:41:26 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1gxskdvcy4-1 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:41:26 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 668C8400E2 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:41:26 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:41:26 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030106000606030606070105" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-07_04:2014-01-07,2014-01-07,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401070050 Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 12:41:40 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030106000606030606070105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/07/2014 12:42 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> What do you mean with "the authenticated authorization issue=94? > > I=92m not Kepeng, but I read > >> it does not >> address the authenticated authorization issue. > > as > >> it does not >> address authenticated authorization beyond the authentication function= s that DTLS already provides. > > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > Thank you Carsten, I was trying to be short in detriment of clarity. The part on "beyond the authentication functions that DTLS already=20 provides" seems obvious (even to me ;-) ). However "authenticated authorization" is a somewhat odd term that can be = interpreted in various ways (and that is not common among IAM and access = control practitioners). So if we claim that ACE is going to address=20 this, we should define what it means (or rephrase it in terms that are=20 commonly understood by the relevant community). /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms030106000606030606070105 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QRA9LoVH2QdS for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5E51AE00F for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s07CeDWF002244 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:43:00 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1gxskdvcyr-1 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:43:00 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3FBE7400E2 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:43:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CBF654.80806@sics.se> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:43:00 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD78E8@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD78E8@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms010900000603020204050901" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-07_04:2014-01-07,2014-01-07,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401070050 Subject: Re: [Ace] BoF in London X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 12:43:11 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010900000603020204050901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/25/2013 07:18 AM, Likepeng wrote: > Hello all, > > Just FYI that Stefanie and I submitted a BoF request for London F2F mee= ting. > > The request can be found at: > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki# > > It is pending for approval by IESG and IAB joint meeting in January, 20= 14. > > Merry Christmas! J > > Thanks, > > Kind Regards > > Kepeng > > > Quick question: Why is the BoF listed under "Applications"? Shouldn't=20 that rather be in the Security area? /Ludwig SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms010900000603020204050901 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7rK8yHy7qDsk for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF841ADBD4 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 04:55:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s07CtSeX013490; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:55:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from eduroam-pool7-0210.wlan.uni-bremen.de (eduroam-pool7-0210.wlan.uni-bremen.de [134.102.112.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 36564FB1; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:55:28 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <52CBF654.80806@sics.se> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 13:55:27 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <40C9698F-FB2F-40A5-8607-64D262A941C0@tzi.org> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD78E8@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBF654.80806@sics.se> To: Ludwig Seitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] BoF in London X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 12:55:45 -0000 On 07 Jan 2014, at 13:43, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > Quick question: Why is the BoF listed under "Applications"? Shouldn't = that rather be in the Security area? Barry Leiba has volunteered to be the responsible AD for the BOF, which = makes this an APP area BOF. Any working group formed from this BOF doesn't have to be in the same = area. (BOFs are scheduled in such a way that cross-area attention is enabled. The BOF chairs will have to make sure to advertise the BOF enough in, = say, SAAG.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From gerdes@tzi.de Tue Jan 7 10:03:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DB1AE0EA for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 10:03:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5JCvA6QxNBF2 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 10:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D63D1AE0E9 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 10:03:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s07I3RZ9002289 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:03:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.102.218.230] (dynamic-218-c.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A4E2299 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:03:27 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 19:03:27 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 18:03:40 -0000 On 01/07/2014 01:41 PM, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > On 01/07/2014 12:42 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> What do you mean with "the authenticated authorization issue”? >> >> I’m not Kepeng, but I read >> >>> it does not >>> address the authenticated authorization issue. >> >> as >> >>> it does not >>> address authenticated authorization beyond the authentication >>> functions that DTLS already provides. >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ace mailing list >> Ace@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >> > > Thank you Carsten, I was trying to be short in detriment of clarity. > > The part on "beyond the authentication functions that DTLS already > provides" seems obvious (even to me ;-) ). > > However "authenticated authorization" is a somewhat odd term that can be > interpreted in various ways (and that is not common among IAM and access > control practitioners). So if we claim that ACE is going to address > this, we should define what it means (or rephrase it in terms that are > commonly understood by the relevant community). My understanding of the term is that the issuer of the authorization needs to be identifyable. An authorization is worthless without knowing who issued it (and if this entity is allowed to issue this authorization). Thus, the term "authenticated authorization" means that you know where the authorization came from. Beside authenticated authorization, it must also be clear for which entity the authorization is issued and who therefore is authorized to do something. If you want to give access permissions to an entity you have to be able to identify it first. And you have to be able to somehow map the authorization to the identified entity. This is a different problem, though. Maybe it helps if we rephrase this part to "The objective is to secure message exchanges at the transport layer, and it does not address authorization. ACE aims to enable authenticated authorization to access specific resources and thus enables constrained devices to verify the valdity of a given authorization. ACE will employ security properties of DTLS whenever possible." What do you think? Best regards, Steffi From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Jan 7 11:56:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764861AE174 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 11:56:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.009 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FMjt_K7JU-Ds for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 11:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9861AE154 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 11:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9032420047; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 16:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id B4A4764647; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B2763AD7; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:56:02 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Stefanie Gerdes In-Reply-To: <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 19:56:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stefanie Gerdes wrote: > My understanding of the term is that the issuer of the authorization > needs to be identifyable. An authorization is worthless without knowi= ng > who issued it (and if this entity is allowed to issue this > authorization). Thus, the term "authenticated authorization" means th= at > you know where the authorization came from. Well, I agree with everything you say, but it seems to obvious that I've never heard anyone say it. From=20rfc2692: The SPKI team directly addressed the issue of bindings and realized that such certificates are of extremely limited use for trust management. A keyholder's name is one attribute of the keyholder, but as can be seen in the list of needs in this document, a person's name is rarely of security interest. A user of a certificate needs to know whether a given keyholder has been granted some specific authorization. One of the key things that came out of SPKI was that the zeroth step is that verifiers trust authorizers. In the browser model, this is done by populating PKIX "root" keys into the browser trusted store. I am not interesting in naming motes. I just want to authorize them. So we will be writing authorization statements about raw public keys. Reading rfc2692/rfc2693 would be a good idea. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUsxb0IqHRg3pndX9AQJrYwQA3XBoo3WyXHxN+SCFy8OqSGZD4PpknPTD vy7FudQj5D4onkUTyPTYQR1HJsZ/Ti75nZk08ZrOw8tEYz3FoLSOI9Jtjxeqr9VC J0Xv962kV77ubMNpY54R/fc761FX9eMTWu1LcanWyo9E0mEc+ODC0db+yaDwnXzr bFaATqAsU+I= =Ljy2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From ludwig@sics.se Wed Jan 8 06:02:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877411AE3D1 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:02:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hi7Rit--WnVW for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9CF1AE3C1 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s08E0YHN008802 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:02:38 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1gxskdwc71-1 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2014 15:02:38 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 17848400E2 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:02:38 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CD5A7D.80008@sics.se> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 15:02:37 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <15941.1389124562@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <15941.1389124562@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030900030600070601080008" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-08_06:2014-01-07,2014-01-08,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401080060 Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:02:51 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030900030600070601080008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/07/2014 08:56 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > I am not interesting in naming motes. I just want to authorize them. > So we will be writing authorization statements about raw public keys. Assuming the motes are powerful enough to handle public key crypto I=20 fully agree with you, but is that always so? I'm guessing here, but wouldn't it be reasonable to assume a class of=20 devices that can handle symmetric key crypto, but not public key crypto? /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms030900030600070601080008 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mZ9r8701lwu5 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:19:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B381AE3C1 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:19:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s08EJScP028079; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:19:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from eduroam-pool7-0733.wlan.uni-bremen.de (eduroam-pool7-0733.wlan.uni-bremen.de [134.102.114.221]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 002387EA; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:19:27 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <52CD5A7D.80008@sics.se> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:19:24 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <52B9952C-E5F1-4778-9DED-43973DEFDA2A@tzi.org> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <15941.1389124562@sandelman.ca> <52CD5A7D.80008@sics.se> To: Ludwig Seitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:19:46 -0000 On 08 Jan 2014, at 15:02, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > On 01/07/2014 08:56 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 >> I am not interesting in naming motes. I just want to authorize them. >> So we will be writing authorization statements about raw public keys. Indeed. one important takeaway from the Paris workshop was that the = traditional concepts of identity may be taking more of a back seat in = the Internet of Things. > Assuming the motes are powerful enough to handle public key crypto I = fully agree with you, but is that always so? We could decide to limit ourselves to only systems that can do = asymmetric crypto, but I think this is not necessary, and we would shut = out the lower end of constrained devices. So I=92d say that I=92d prefer to extend what Michael said to the = exchange of authorization statements that involve keying material (both = about raw public keys and authenticated by symmetric keys). Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From thomas.fossati@alcatel-lucent.com Wed Jan 8 06:35:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7F91AE3DD for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:35:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IAOX0kboL-ab for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50021AE3DE for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s08EZ81D007298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 8 Jan 2014 08:35:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s08EZ5pd009030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:35:07 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA08.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.4.153]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 15:35:05 +0100 From: "FOSSATI, Thomas (Thomas)" To: Ludwig Seitz , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE Thread-Index: Ac8BPgK3+lKjWCqZQJiuZKIBQ1XXGQKRxMAAAAQCZAAAAhGXAAALPw2AAAPukwAAJfLQgAABIfqA Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 14:35:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <15941.1389124562@sandelman.ca> <52CD5A7D.80008@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <52CD5A7D.80008@sics.se> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:35:22 -0000 THVkd2lnLA0KDQpPbiAwOC8wMS8yMDE0IDE0OjAyLCAiTHVkd2lnIFNlaXR6IiA8bHVkd2lnQHNp Y3Muc2U+IHdyb3RlOg0KPkknbSBndWVzc2luZyBoZXJlLCBidXQgd291bGRuJ3QgaXQgYmUgcmVh c29uYWJsZSB0byBhc3N1bWUgYSBjbGFzcyBvZg0KPmRldmljZXMgdGhhdCBjYW4gaGFuZGxlIHN5 bW1ldHJpYyBrZXkgY3J5cHRvLCBidXQgbm90IHB1YmxpYyBrZXkgY3J5cHRvPw0KDQp5ZXMsIGl0 IHNlZW1zIHRvdGFsbHkgc2Vuc2libGUgdG8gbWUgdG8gZGVzaWduIGZvciBzY2VuYXJpb3Mgd2hl cmUNCmF1dGhvcmlzYXRpb24gYXNzZXJ0aW9ucyBhcmUgZG9uZSB1c2luZyBzeW1tZXRyaWMgY3J5 cHRvLg0KDQpFLmcuIGFsbG93aW5nIGEgdGlueSBtb3RlIHRvIHNlY3VyZWx5IGRlbGVnYXRlIHRo ZSBoYW5kbGluZyBvZiBpdHMNCnJlc291cmNlcyB0byBhbiBhbHdheXMtb24gZW5kcG9pbnQgb2Yg Y2hvaWNlIChwZXJoYXBzIHdoZW4gaXQgbmVlZHMgdG8NCnNsZWVwIHRvIHNhdmUgcG93ZXIpIHNo b3VsZCBiZSBmZWFzaWJsZSB3aXRob3V0Og0KYSkgZHJhaW5pbmcgYWxsIG9mIGl0cyBiYXR0ZXJ5 IHRvIGNvbXB1dGUvdmVyaWZ5IGEgc2lnbmF0dXJlLCBhbmQNCmIpIGNyYW1taW5nIGl0cyBST00g d2l0aCBCSUdOVU0gaGFuZGxpbmcgY29kZS4NCg0K From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Jan 8 13:59:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8401ACCDA for ; 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Wed, 8 Jan 2014 16:59:02 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Ludwig Seitz In-Reply-To: <52CD5A7D.80008@sics.se> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <15941.1389124562@sandelman.ca> <52CD5A7D.80008@sics.se> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 21:59:16 -0000 --=-=-= Ludwig Seitz wrote: >> I am not interesting in naming motes. I just want to authorize them. >> So we will be writing authorization statements about raw public keys. > Assuming the motes are powerful enough to handle public key crypto I > fully agree with you, but is that always so? I'm guessing here, but > wouldn't it be reasonable to assume a class of devices that can handle > symmetric key crypto, but not public key crypto? First, I have no interest in motes performing more than 1-2 public key operations in their *lifetime*. They should come up enough to identify themselves and create one or two TLS sessions (such as EAP-TLS sessions over PANA for layer-2, ZigbeeIP-style). Then a bunch of TLS resumption blogs (see rfc5077). All subsequent operations would use that. The thing is, the ACLs would still get written for public keys, it is just that we always make sure to provision shortcuts to those keys. My opinion is that motes that can not do even 1 public key operation probably can not run DTLS. Second, if we truly want to do symmetric key stuff (including the very first kinit), then we need to avoid re-inventing kerberos. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUs3KJIqHRg3pndX9AQL3LAQAu36mXgHhkx2QLIPD2jjdJN7nVS0be4kL D30wdl4k03WBOdYaHDpcN3aU+PWfKMpUX6kbwRdyx8QjzmJ9cWdQctwesKZzDEJ9 /I6SHD8OQGibpvp44xLDGV7K7xlTaKikFdzV/GJwvCMkEIO2EclYV1CXY+gC8shy 2l966a9nvnY= =Be8F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From likepeng@huawei.com Wed Jan 8 18:49:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399E21AE001 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:49:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1o75cOfadCyz for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3CD1AE012 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id AZT48870; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 02:49:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 02:48:38 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.40) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 02:49:04 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA408-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 10:49:01 +0800 From: Likepeng To: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE Thread-Index: AQHPC42EULipOXzP80e2f32iNtHTFJp4ncoAgAAQjQCAAFn4gIACqvMA Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 02:49:01 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 02:49:27 -0000 Pk1heWJlIGl0IGhlbHBzIGlmIHdlIHJlcGhyYXNlIHRoaXMgcGFydCB0byAiVGhlIG9iamVjdGl2 ZSBpcyB0byBzZWN1cmUgbWVzc2FnZSBleGNoYW5nZXMgYXQgdGhlIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBsYXllciwg YW5kIGl0IGRvZXMgbm90IGFkZHJlc3MgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbi4gQUNFIGFpbXMgdG8gZW5hYmxl IGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0ZWQgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiB0byBhY2Nlc3Mgc3BlY2lmaWMgcmVzb3VyY2Vz IGFuZCB0aHVzIGVuYWJsZXMgY29uc3RyYWluZWQgZGV2aWNlcyB0byB2ZXJpZnkgdGhlIHZhbGlk aXR5IG9mIGEgZ2l2ZW4gYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbi4gQUNFIHdpbGwgZW1wbG95IHNlY3VyaXR5IHBy b3BlcnRpZXMgb2YgRFRMUyB3aGVuZXZlciBwb3NzaWJsZS4iDQoNCisxLiANCg0KS2luZCBSZWdh cmRzDQpLZXBlbmcNCg0KLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBBY2UgW21h aWx0bzphY2UtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj6KGoIFN0ZWZhbmllIEdlcmRlcw0K5Y+R6YCB 5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE05bm0MeaciDjml6UgMjowMw0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBhY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4 u+mimDogUmU6IFtBY2VdIFJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcCBhbmQgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSB3aXRoIERJQ0UNCg0K T24gMDEvMDcvMjAxNCAwMTo0MSBQTSwgTHVkd2lnIFNlaXR6IHdyb3RlOg0KPiBPbiAwMS8wNy8y MDE0IDEyOjQyIFBNLCBDYXJzdGVuIEJvcm1hbm4gd3JvdGU6DQo+Pj4gV2hhdCBkbyB5b3UgbWVh biB3aXRoICJ0aGUgYXV0aGVudGljYXRlZCBhdXRob3JpemF0aW9uIGlzc3Vl4oCdPw0KPj4NCj4+ IEnigJltIG5vdCBLZXBlbmcsIGJ1dCBJIHJlYWQNCj4+DQo+Pj4gaXQgZG9lcyBub3QNCj4+PiBh ZGRyZXNzIHRoZSBhdXRoZW50aWNhdGVkIGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24gaXNzdWUuDQo+Pg0KPj4gYXMN Cj4+DQo+Pj4gaXQgZG9lcyBub3QNCj4+PiBhZGRyZXNzIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0ZWQgYXV0aG9yaXph dGlvbiBiZXlvbmQgdGhlIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uIA0KPj4+IGZ1bmN0aW9ucyB0aGF0IERUTFMg YWxyZWFkeSBwcm92aWRlcy4NCj4+DQo+PiBHcsO8w59lLCBDYXJzdGVuDQo+Pg0KPj4gX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+IEFjZSBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4+IEFjZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9hY2UNCj4+DQo+IA0KPiBUaGFuayB5b3UgQ2Fyc3RlbiwgSSB3YXMgdHJ5aW5nIHRv IGJlIHNob3J0IGluIGRldHJpbWVudCBvZiBjbGFyaXR5Lg0KPiANCj4gVGhlIHBhcnQgb24gImJl eW9uZCB0aGUgYXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24gZnVuY3Rpb25zIHRoYXQgRFRMUyBhbHJlYWR5IA0KPiBw cm92aWRlcyIgc2VlbXMgb2J2aW91cyAoZXZlbiB0byBtZSA7LSkgKS4NCj4gDQo+IEhvd2V2ZXIg ImF1dGhlbnRpY2F0ZWQgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiIgaXMgYSBzb21ld2hhdCBvZGQgdGVybSB0aGF0 IGNhbiANCj4gYmUgaW50ZXJwcmV0ZWQgaW4gdmFyaW91cyB3YXlzIChhbmQgdGhhdCBpcyBub3Qg Y29tbW9uIGFtb25nIElBTSBhbmQgDQo+IGFjY2VzcyBjb250cm9sIHByYWN0aXRpb25lcnMpLiBT byBpZiB3ZSBjbGFpbSB0aGF0IEFDRSBpcyBnb2luZyB0byANCj4gYWRkcmVzcyB0aGlzLCB3ZSBz aG91bGQgZGVmaW5lIHdoYXQgaXQgbWVhbnMgKG9yIHJlcGhyYXNlIGl0IGluIHRlcm1zIA0KPiB0 aGF0IGFyZSBjb21tb25seSB1bmRlcnN0b29kIGJ5IHRoZSByZWxldmFudCBjb21tdW5pdHkpLg0K DQpNeSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nIG9mIHRoZSB0ZXJtIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIGlzc3VlciBvZiB0aGUg YXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSBpZGVudGlmeWFibGUuIEFuIGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24g aXMgd29ydGhsZXNzIHdpdGhvdXQga25vd2luZyB3aG8gaXNzdWVkIGl0IChhbmQgaWYgdGhpcyBl bnRpdHkgaXMgYWxsb3dlZCB0byBpc3N1ZSB0aGlzIGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24pLiBUaHVzLCB0aGUg dGVybSAiYXV0aGVudGljYXRlZCBhdXRob3JpemF0aW9uIiBtZWFucyB0aGF0IHlvdSBrbm93IHdo ZXJlIHRoZSBhdXRob3JpemF0aW9uIGNhbWUgZnJvbS4NCg0KQmVzaWRlIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0ZWQg YXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiwgaXQgbXVzdCBhbHNvIGJlIGNsZWFyIGZvciB3aGljaCBlbnRpdHkgdGhl IGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24gaXMgaXNzdWVkIGFuZCB3aG8gdGhlcmVmb3JlIGlzIGF1dGhvcml6ZWQg dG8gZG8gc29tZXRoaW5nLiBJZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBnaXZlIGFjY2VzcyBwZXJtaXNzaW9ucyB0 byBhbiBlbnRpdHkgeW91IGhhdmUgdG8gYmUgYWJsZSB0byBpZGVudGlmeSBpdCBmaXJzdC4gQW5k IHlvdSBoYXZlIHRvIGJlIGFibGUgdG8gc29tZWhvdyBtYXAgdGhlIGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24gdG8g dGhlIGlkZW50aWZpZWQgZW50aXR5LiBUaGlzIGlzIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IHByb2JsZW0sIHRob3Vn aC4NCg0KTWF5YmUgaXQgaGVscHMgaWYgd2UgcmVwaHJhc2UgdGhpcyBwYXJ0IHRvICJUaGUgb2Jq ZWN0aXZlIGlzIHRvIHNlY3VyZSBtZXNzYWdlIGV4Y2hhbmdlcyBhdCB0aGUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGxh eWVyLCBhbmQgaXQgZG9lcyBub3QgYWRkcmVzcyBhdXRob3JpemF0aW9uLiBBQ0UgYWltcyB0byBl bmFibGUgYXV0aGVudGljYXRlZCBhdXRob3JpemF0aW9uIHRvIGFjY2VzcyBzcGVjaWZpYyByZXNv dXJjZXMgYW5kIHRodXMgZW5hYmxlcyBjb25zdHJhaW5lZCBkZXZpY2VzIHRvIHZlcmlmeSB0aGUg dmFsZGl0eSBvZiBhIGdpdmVuIGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24uIEFDRSB3aWxsIGVtcGxveSBzZWN1cml0 eSBwcm9wZXJ0aWVzIG9mIERUTFMgd2hlbmV2ZXIgcG9zc2libGUuIg0KDQpXaGF0IGRvIHlvdSB0 aGluaz8NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KU3RlZmZpDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KQWNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KQWNlQGlldGYub3JnDQpo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FjZQ0K From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Thu Jan 9 03:28:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E65E1AE10E for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 03:28:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9lOVb83gOlQG for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 03:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C441AE29C for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 03:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan ([172.19.170.141]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MK7RL-1W0OJA3Xdd-001UUV for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:28:33 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Jan 09 12:28:33 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: Likepeng Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 12:28:33 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de>, <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:HvhlOueeTTloVze4qHn6jfDWoXRHhXRb58N4w+IHGeH ZPdCszxxSNI9gEvxKi1lhECR4qLbhdBs4U8ocjsJdOiIB3etUp 84WNskRnn1TtQFmPYHDRKzcO3lG0BKp9ecnSvPM6tCYF+OJTZt QH9HW3fwrDxqm9tumfLxzBZ4ETIon0jgWQi2GNx+8VoM+oy/cS cKnzVNsYGM3GyPubhvs7d6PvkmT+NCbu3uZ3sUueyk9yvHn0QH n+dsuDv8WsVAifszIB0dJMrPXh9EdKHkAmiqu3TgOehTLHaua9 d5xwpM= Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:28:48 -0000
Hi Kepeng,&nb= sp;
 
the relationship between DICE and ACE is quite simple whe= n we look at the way how TLS/DTLS is designed. TLS/DTLS does not provi= de authorization within the protocol itself. Instead it outsources this fun= ction to the application layer. As an example, if you look at RFC 2818 http://www.rfc-editor.org= /rfc/rfc2818.txt or better at http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6125 then you will s= ee that different application layer protocols performed the authorization c= heck differently. 
 
RFC 2818 ("HTTP = over TLS") says: 
 
   If the hostname does not match the =
identity in the certificate, user
   oriented clients MUST either notify the user (clients MAY give the
   user the opportunity to continue with the connection in any case) or
   terminate the connection with a bad certificate error.
The document describes how the match between the certific= ate and the URL looks like. RFC 6125 goes into more details about how to pe= rform this match.  
 
This is the authorization check executed by the client. T= he authorization of the client (by the server) is not described in RFC 2818= and it is much more complex. Luckily, the ACE group does not need to = specify the authorization check executed by the client since it is already = defined in CoAP draft. Here is the relevant text: 
 
   When a new c=
onnection is formed, the certificate from the remote
   device needs to be verified. [....snip...] If the

   certificate =
contains a SubjectAltName, then the Authority Name MUST
   match at least one of the authority names of any CoAP URI found in a
   field of URI type in the SubjectAltName set.  If there is no
   SubjectAltName in the certificate, then the Authoritative Name MUST
   match the CN found in the certificate using the matching rules
   defined in [RFC2818] with the exception that certificates w=
ith
   wildcards are not allowed.
 
Of course, the work in ACE shouldn't only be applicab= le to CoAP but when you use HTTPS with a constrained device then RFC 2= 818 would kick in.
 
The focus of ACE is therefore on the authorization of the= client by the server. The server hosts the resource and so the access to t= he resource must be protected against unauthorized access. This does not ne= cessarily require the client to be authenticated to the server if you make = use of a trusted third party that mediates the exchange, as we see with a n= umber of protocol designs. Having read the input drafts for ACE I see this = observation being confirmed. There are obviously various possible solution = designs. For example, one can imagine to convey additional inform= ation in the DTLS exchange itself but it could also mean to carry informati= on at the application layer. This is largely a design decision a yet-to-be-= formed working group has to decide and I wouldn't write that into the c= harter text itself. I would go as far as saying that ACE might be independe= nt of DTLS; it might use DTLS as a building block (depending on the design of the solution). 
 
When folks work in DICE to create a profile of DTLS for u= se by constrained devices it makes sense to stick with the current model of= DTLS. As such, the authorization is not part of the actual DTLS protocol i= tself.
 
I hope my description makes some sense. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
PS: Btw, I would keep the main description of the ACE gro= up as simple as "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources by = constrained devices.". 
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. Ja= nuar 2014 um 02:49 Uhr
Von: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
An: "Stefanie Gerdes" <gerdes@tzi.de>, "a= ce@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE
>Maybe it helps if we rephrase this part t= o "The objective is to secure message exchanges at the transport layer= , and it does not address authorization. ACE aims to enable authenticated a= uthorization to access specific resources and thus enables constrained devi= ces to verify the validity of a given authorization. ACE will employ securi= ty properties of DTLS whenever possible."

+1.

Kind Regards
Kepeng

-----邮件原件-----
发件人: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] 代ඤ= 0; Stefanie Gerdes
发送时间: 2014年1月8日 2:03
收件人: ace@ietf.org
主题: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE

On 01/07/2014 01:41 PM, Ludwig Seitz wrote:
> On 01/07/2014 12:42 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> What do you mean with "the authenticated authorization i= ssue”?
>>
>> I’m not Kepeng, but I read
>>
>>> it does not
>>> address the authenticated authorization issue.
>>
>> as
>>
>>> it does not
>>> address authenticated authorization beyond the authentication=
>>> functions that DTLS already provides.
>>
>> Grüße, Carsten
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>
>
> Thank you Carsten, I was trying to be short in detriment of clarity.<= br/> >
> The part on "beyond the authentication functions that DTLS alrea= dy
> provides" seems obvious (even to me ;-) ).
>
> However "authenticated authorization" is a somewhat odd ter= m that can
> be interpreted in various ways (and that is not common among IAM and<= br/> > access control practitioners). So if we claim that ACE is going to > address this, we should define what it means (or rephrase it in terms=
> that are commonly understood by the relevant community).

My understanding of the term is that the issuer of the authorization needs= to be identifyable. An authorization is worthless without knowing who issu= ed it (and if this entity is allowed to issue this authorization). Thus, th= e term "authenticated authorization" means that you know where th= e authorization came from.

Beside authenticated authorization, it must also be clear for which entity= the authorization is issued and who therefore is authorized to do somethin= g. If you want to give access permissions to an entity you have to be able = to identify it first. And you have to be able to somehow map the authorizat= ion to the identified entity. This is a different problem, though.

Maybe it helps if we rephrase this part to "The objective is to secur= e message exchanges at the transport layer, and it does not address authori= zation. ACE aims to enable authenticated authorization to access specific r= esources and thus enables constrained devices to verify the valdity of a gi= ven authorization. ACE will employ security properties of DTLS whenever pos= sible."

What do you think?

Best regards,
Steffi
_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
From bergmann@tzi.org Thu Jan 9 04:19:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9001AE223 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:19:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FI11ntd6Z9JU for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 773671AE031 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:19:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s09CJO9E010502; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:19:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-l.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.211]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6B919E73; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:19:24 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: "Hannes Tschofenig" References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:19:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Hannes Tschofenig's message of "Thu, 9 Jan 2014 12:28:33 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: <87zjn5fiur.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:19:41 -0000 Hannes, "Hannes Tschofenig" writes: > =A0 > This is the authorization check executed by the client. The > authorization of the client (by the server) is not described in RFC > 2818 and it is much more complex. Luckily, the ACE group=A0does not need > to specify the authorization check executed by the client since it is > already defined in CoAP draft. Here is the relevant text:=A0 [...] You are citing section 9.1.3.3 of the draft coap-18 which is about Certificate mode. I presume that ACE will address RawPublicKey mode and PreSharedKey mode as well. Thus, there is obvously a need to define the authorization check executed by the client. > Of course, the work in ACE shouldn't only be applicable to CoAP=A0but > when you use HTTPS with a constrained device then RFC 2818 would kick > in. My understanding was that ACE targets at authorization for the constrained device space. It uses CoAP as its transfer protocol but needs to define interworking with other mechanisms (e.g. OAuth). > The focus of ACE is therefore on the authorization of the client by > the server. The server hosts the resource and so the access to the > resource must be protected against unauthorized access. This does not > necessarily require the client to be authenticated to the server if > you make use of a trusted third party that mediates the exchange, as > we see with a number of protocol designs. Having read the input drafts > for ACE I see this observation being confirmed. There are obviously > various possible solution designs.=A0For example, one can imagine to > convey=A0additional information in the DTLS exchange itself but it could > also mean to carry information at the application layer. This is > largely a design decision a yet-to-be-formed working group has to > decide and I wouldn't write that into the charter text itself. I would > go as far as saying that ACE might be independent of DTLS; it might > use DTLS as a building block=A0(depending on the design of the > solution).=A0 I think, your understanding is correct, with the exception that authorization of the server to the client also should be addressed. > PS: Btw, I would keep the main description of the ACE group as simple > as "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources by constrained > devices.".=A0 +1 Gruesse Olaf From thomas.fossati@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Jan 9 04:38:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619471AE1FE for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:38:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org 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with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:38:24 +0100 From: "FOSSATI, Thomas (Thomas)" To: Hannes Tschofenig , Likepeng , Olaf Bergmann Thread-Topic: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE Thread-Index: Ac8BPgK3+lKjWCqZQJiuZKIBQ1XXGQKRxMAAAAQCZAAAAhGXAAALPw2AAESliYAAEiT+gAACcDUA Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 12:38:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <958107F5FCC693459F4BD0BFAD7DC31D@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:38:49 -0000 T24gMDkvMDEvMjAxNCAxMToyOCwgIkhhbm5lcyBUc2Nob2ZlbmlnIiA8SGFubmVzLlRzY2hvZmVu aWdAZ214Lm5ldD4gd3JvdGU6DQo+VGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiBjaGVjayBleGVj dXRlZCBieSB0aGUgY2xpZW50LiBUaGUgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbg0KPm9mIHRoZSBjbGllbnQgKGJ5 IHRoZSBzZXJ2ZXIpIGlzIG5vdCBkZXNjcmliZWQgaW4gUkZDIDI4MTggYW5kIGl0IGlzIG11Y2gN Cj5tb3JlIGNvbXBsZXguIEx1Y2tpbHksDQo+IHRoZSBBQ0UgZ3JvdXAgZG9lcyBub3QgbmVlZCB0 byBzcGVjaWZ5IHRoZSBhdXRob3JpemF0aW9uIGNoZWNrIGV4ZWN1dGVkDQo+YnkgdGhlIGNsaWVu dCBzaW5jZSBpdCBpcyBhbHJlYWR5IGRlZmluZWQgaW4gQ29BUCBkcmFmdC4gSGVyZSBpcyB0aGUN Cj5yZWxldmFudCB0ZXh0OiANCj4gDQo+ICAgV2hlbiBhIG5ldyBjb25uZWN0aW9uIGlzIGZvcm1l ZCwgdGhlIGNlcnRpZmljYXRlIGZyb20gdGhlIHJlbW90ZQ0KPiAgIGRldmljZSBuZWVkcyB0byBi 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c2VjdGlvbiA5LjEuMy4zIG9mIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBjb2FwLTE4IHdoaWNoIGlzIGFib3V0DQo+IENl cnRpZmljYXRlIG1vZGUuIEkgcHJlc3VtZSB0aGF0IEFDRSB3aWxsIGFkZHJlc3MgUmF3UHVibGlj S2V5IG1vZGUgYW5kDQo+IFByZVNoYXJlZEtleSBtb2RlIGFzIHdlbGwuIFRodXMsIHRoZXJlIGlz IG9idm91c2x5IGEgbmVlZCB0byBkZWZpbmUgdGhlDQo+IGF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24gY2hlY2sgZXhl Y3V0ZWQgYnkgdGhlIGNsaWVudC4NCg0KKzEg4oCUIFdlIG5lZWQgbW9yZSB3b3JrIChpbiBDb1JF IEkgc3VwcG9zZSkgdG8gY292ZXIgdGhpcyBhcmVhLg0KDQo= From ludwig@sics.se Thu Jan 9 04:51:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AAD1AE271 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yg3N-O95qIyu for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26F91AE0F7 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 04:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s09CpjvJ002471 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:51:45 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1gxskdxd5s-1 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:51:44 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F1F83400E2 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:51:44 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CE9B60.8010001@sics.se> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:51:44 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de>, <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms010308080301010003010709" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-09_04:2014-01-08,2014-01-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401090041 Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:51:59 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010308080301010003010709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/09/2014 12:28 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > PS: Btw, I would keep the main description of the ACE group as simple a= s > "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources by constrained > devices.". +1 /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms010308080301010003010709 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature 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goran.selander@ericsson.com Thu Jan 9 05:01:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80121AE29B for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:01:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wC-pb8OAu9PI for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:01:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw7.ericsson.se (mailgw7.ericsson.se [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53381AE1C7 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:01:07 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-b7f228e000003e6c-57-52ce9d866896 Received: from 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user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CEF45B1C19A37goranselanderericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW7n3HNBBn13GS2+f+thtli68x6r A5PH4k372TyWLPnJFMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXxd0t0wWqJinWr3zI1MB4Q7WLk5JAQMJG4 87KdHcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DAIUaJ7TPuskI4ixklPu1cAlbFJuAqceDBOyYQW0QgSOLBlAtg cWEBC4lrZ34yQ8QtJX7ceAlVEyUx4egLsDiLgIrEsfd7WEFsXqD6FbsXQG37xCTx4+JNsEGc AhESHSfmgRUxAp30/dQasEHMAuISt57MZ4I4VUBiyZ7zzBC2qMTLx//A6kUF9CTuPZrLAhFX klix/RIjRG+sxJmmpYwQiwUlTs58wjKBUXQWkrGzkJTNQlIGEdeTuDF1ChuErS2xbOFrZghb V2LGv0NQNdYSs7f+Y0RWs4CRYxUje25iZk56ufkmRmC0Hdzy22AH46b7YocYpTlYlMR5P7x1 DhISSE8sSc1OTS1ILYovKs1JLT7EyMTBKdXAqLqf52LA0zvuJU/Tm60K9n8XcpkqH2v3SEKy iuXbjKU+ee+mG3NU5QrNUfrtOCnbl/vagf/Lt/Dmr0lLte2faPsjJ67rxZ+LX/kWXeg4MXOy xsGL0ouUj/76OnuzDG/B/6kmfOFGR78+eZEk9EddZ52BeUB+xvdlym1BFUkTFujzP1s0I23q byWW4oxEQy3mouJEABhaWIiEAgAA Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:01:10 -0000 --_000_CEF45B1C19A37goranselanderericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/09/2014 12:28 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: PS: Btw, I would keep the main description of the ACE group as simple as "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources by constrained devices.". I would say "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources on constrain= ed devices." The accessing device may be constrained or not. G=F6ran --_000_CEF45B1C19A37goranselanderericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <5887CFCC2CD36D4F8F3B9742E6529678@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 01/09/2014 12:28 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:

PS: Btw, I= would keep the main description of the ACE group as simple as
"ACE = aims to enable authorized access to resources by constrained
devices.&q= uot;.


I would say "ACE aims to enable authorize= d access to resources on constrained
devices.&q= uot; The accessing device may be constrained or not.

G=F6ran

--_000_CEF45B1C19A37goranselanderericssoncom_-- From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Thu Jan 9 05:17:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8411AE2C7 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:17:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BlTvJroE9Ext for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A851AE24D for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs04.server.lan ([172.19.170.53]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx002) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MVXXN-1VtL6m0OH1-00YxbZ for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:17:35 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs04.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Jan 09 14:17:35 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Olaf Bergmann" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 14:17:35 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87zjn5fiur.fsf@tzi.org> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> , <87zjn5fiur.fsf@tzi.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:pRIFPK03NU8lMbnX3laC+Tmaefr/ns0iJACV9vS/7nl ZEjAmBYo/WlF+S0OO/+LHvKL/TWmq5DtEZ7WT95ZZ4kKyFm0nA gXswrIf6+bLRI0J4oFPS9ZmCrj4sDlWJYiUv+Y1ql5FTIIKNzf mFDZzYRNY270KQ/T7SN6ZzeLUm/HFYdREEnbIsYnynEG/vs01s oHKXy3PAIL9uwSKFc1PxcDYP8dulFMKhTNoAqroJhd5nmei4e3 WqvMyASWyhgGZ2WejtRIypThsmzJeSCmM2mkH9b0Wdxhb0NJzU 4ZsiFs= Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:17:47 -0000
Hi Olaf, 
 
remarks inline: 
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. Januar 2014 um 12:19 Uhr
Von: "Olaf Bergmann" <bergmann@tzi.org>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE
Hannes,

"Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net> writes:

>  
> This is the authorization check executed by the client. The
> authorization of the client (by the server) is not described in RFC
> 2818 and it is much more complex. Luckily, the ACE group does not need
> to specify the authorization check executed by the client since it is
> already defined in CoAP draft. Here is the relevant text: 

[...]

You are citing section 9.1.3.3 of the draft coap-18 which is about
Certificate mode. I presume that ACE will address RawPublicKey mode and
PreSharedKey mode as well. Thus, there is obvously a need to define the
authorization check executed by the client.
 
[hannes] That's a good point. I think that this also has to be mentioned in the charter that different types of credentials have to be supported, namely shared secrets, raw public keys, and certificates, since it will impact the design of the protocol. 
Kerberos, for example, does not offer that level of flexiblity. 

> Of course, the work in ACE shouldn't only be applicable to CoAP but
> when you use HTTPS with a constrained device then RFC 2818 would kick
> in.

My understanding was that ACE targets at authorization for the
constrained device space. It uses CoAP as its transfer protocol but
needs to define interworking with other mechanisms (e.g. OAuth).
 
[hannes] This is an interesting scope question. Of course, you have various protocol interactions here, such as the client<->trusted third party as well as the client<->server. I could imagine that one would want to use CoAP on the former but would you mandate CoAP on the latter as well. 
Just to give you an example what I mean: In OAuth the client<->authorization server exchange uses HTTPS. There is a specification for an HTTPS-based exchange from the client<->resource server (the OAuth Bearer Token) but we have also worked on a mapping to SASL. As such, there is nothing in OAuth that prevents you from exchanging the access token also on other protocols. It would be nice to keep that flexiblity even though the first and main use case is for CoAP. What do you think? 


> The focus of ACE is therefore on the authorization of the client by
> the server. The server hosts the resource and so the access to the
> resource must be protected against unauthorized access. This does not
> necessarily require the client to be authenticated to the server if
> you make use of a trusted third party that mediates the exchange, as
> we see with a number of protocol designs. Having read the input drafts
> for ACE I see this observation being confirmed. There are obviously
> various possible solution designs. For example, one can imagine to
> convey additional information in the DTLS exchange itself but it could
> also mean to carry information at the application layer. This is
> largely a design decision a yet-to-be-formed working group has to
> decide and I wouldn't write that into the charter text itself. I would
> go as far as saying that ACE might be independent of DTLS; it might
> use DTLS as a building block (depending on the design of the
> solution). 

I think, your understanding is correct, with the exception that
authorization of the server to the client also should be addressed.
 
[hannes] I would say that this is already in the CoAP spec. Would you have to say more than that? 

> PS: Btw, I would keep the main description of the ACE group as simple
> as "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources by constrained
> devices.". 

+1

Gruesse
Olaf
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Thu Jan 9 05:21:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549B71AE2D9 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:21:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Y97qKaFauf0 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C141AE2CD for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs04.server.lan ([172.19.170.53]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LkDzQ-1VPAhk01xy-00cBrc for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:21:06 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs04.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Jan 09 14:21:06 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "FOSSATI, Thomas (Thomas)" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 14:21:05 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> , X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:F7klRxsbP7YBwLX1l4gleFWcqGZzG7fH7PVIu97Dooc VnJm6HvqFSG/yYy7aIY/UU7vX+qLt37yUz13kw2jnYYqPu0v7Y ovAsUPyLhl41wy3C0VsnbesDBQ+e+vW14JN1AbuLDUP8nTtMzn C7+R0Il6+mQd6w28Gyj4/urZRMX4jEwGmud69ozZcPi2XWZ7dR /Y7U5sGfuGfbIhF/WEJpu4mDq7jxHTnSWBu8LKTIiH+QCM0FrT ItQDUG4hqQZSBJTu3N4jsoNomAqxcqUZQYNiY1Bdy2BsPoKPXY 5n260s= Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Olaf Bergmann , Likepeng , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:21:17 -0000
Hi Thomas,
 
> BTW this still needs some more tweaking to work in non-DNS environments
(see http://tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/255).
 
Yes, the section would benefit from a bit more clarity in general. I noticed that it is hard to follow whether we are actually talking about the client or the server in various paragraphs since both sides can have certificates (or other credentials). 
I leave that to the core working group.
 
As a side remark: It would be interesting to find out how likely the use of DNS is going to be since it raises the question about DNSSEC and how it interacts with various other IoT specified security mechanisms. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Thu Jan 9 05:27:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B561AE2CD for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:27:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.414 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.414 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6vcKqNZ_KuTP for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956821AE2DD for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs04.server.lan ([172.19.170.53]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MWvJi-1Vvo800g3I-00Vuqu for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:27:16 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs04.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Jan 09 14:27:16 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: =?UTF-8?Q?=22G=C3=B6ran_Selander=22?= Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 14:27:16 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> , X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:kSNwly2UeS0YiT1mll4yxPj41ri2zJOhpkPi440RUjM WPmKr5SICZqMFpUkjmeBdCgV8b6l6Pbs20m3d9OVIpMv0Qxa95 bofWtslzeffqceD2M40O/uOMdyqHhAihl+Al6t0EszLbo5X6E1 LxyAH9rXzW/SEeQy05xBOFu6V0rQ99+HQveZxRR7JOA9TIULSF POxWYq7B/HXznt9a9s58cYmPduhKgsm3L1mc3yW1EbJEImf01P 2+d6wcABxaAA90bL7m2RYmTcf2BX2tNrq2oz6i1Ql6SyDdZe3q LafFCw= Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:27:28 -0000
You are certainly right that there are potential cases where the client asking for resources has no constraints. 
But equally likely it is that the device running the resource is not constrained but the client is. 
In the worst case both devices are constrained. 
 
From a protocol design point of view that's obviously a tricky situation. You can assume the worst case scenario or alternatively focus on specific scenarios only. 
That's where the requirements document would show some real value. 
 
I wonder what the views of others in the group are. 
 
At least I hope we do not assume that the trusted third party / authorization server is a constrained device....
 
Cio
Hannes
 
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. Januar 2014 um 13:00 Uhr
Von: "Göran Selander" <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE
 
On 01/09/2014 12:28 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
 
PS: Btw, I would keep the main description of the ACE group as simple as
"ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources by constrained
devices.".
 
 
I would say "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources on constrained
devices." The accessing device may be constrained or not.
 
Göran
 
_______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
From ludwig@sics.se Thu Jan 9 05:47:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E6B1AE2EB for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:47:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SYieDBfp24qu for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98641AE21A for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s09DkteJ010681 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 14:46:55 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1gxskdxfkg-1 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:46:55 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3B00240117 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 14:46:55 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52CEA84F.5020600@sics.se> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:46:55 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> , In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040904030000000409060400" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-09_04:2014-01-08,2014-01-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401090053 Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:47:07 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040904030000000409060400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/09/2014 02:27 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > You are certainly right that there are potential cases where the client= > asking for resources has no constraints. > But equally likely it is that the device running the resource is not > constrained but the client is. > In the worst case both devices are constrained. > From a protocol design point of view that's obviously a tricky > situation. You can assume the worst case scenario or alternatively focu= s > on specific scenarios only. > That's where the requirements document would show some real value. > I wonder what the views of others in the group are. In the use-case draft we assume that the server is constrained, and that = the client could be constrained (i.e. your worst case). I think we never had detailed considerations on the case where only the=20 client is constrained, although Stefanie Gerdes had it listed on a slide = at IETF 88. My hunch is that case is much easier than the reverse one. > At least I hope we do not assume that the trusted third party / > authorization server is a constrained device.... Nope, because then we would have to introduce a trusted fourth party ... /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms040904030000000409060400 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YFV-vWJSA5uw for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235B21AE07F for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:20:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s09EJmfc013106; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:19:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-l.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.211]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24E52FFA; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:19:48 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: "Hannes Tschofenig" References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD792B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBCD2C.8060808@sics.se> <7632E3D1-091D-42B8-985C-7EB52C248FCD@tzi.org> <52CBF5F6.2030605@sics.se> <52CC416F.9060507@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252ADB284@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87zjn5fiur.fsf@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 15:19:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Hannes Tschofenig's message of "Thu, 9 Jan 2014 14:17:35 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: <87lhypfda4.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:20:03 -0000 Hi Hannes, "Hannes Tschofenig" writes: > [hannes] This is an interesting scope question. Of course, you have > various protocol interactions here, such as the client<->trusted third > party as well as the client<->server. I could imagine that one would > want to use CoAP on the former but would you mandate CoAP on the > latter as well.=A0 The folks who were discussing the authorization topic during IETF-87 and 88 (including me) have started with the assumption that client<->server is CoAP while client<->trusted third party could be CoAP or something else (in draft-gerdes-core-dcaf, we have split this latter communication up into two parts where the first is most likely CoAP when the client is a constrained device, while the other could be something else, e.g. HTTPS). > Just to give you an example what I mean: In OAuth the > client<->authorization server exchange uses HTTPS. There is a > specification for an HTTPS-based exchange from the=A0client<->resource > server (the OAuth Bearer Token) but we have also worked on a mapping > to SASL. As such, there is nothing in OAuth that prevents you from > exchanging the access token also on other protocols. It would be nice > to keep that flexiblity even though the first and main use case is for > CoAP. What do you think?=A0 That's the reaason why draft-gerdes-core-dcaf use an architecture that allows for the not-constrained parties to use e.g. OAuth while the constrained devices need to handle nothing but some sort of bearer token (the draft talks about tickets as an analogy to real life where tickets are used e.g. as a proof that the holder is authorized to walk into a concert, while the doormen can check the ticket's authenticity by some hard-to-fake information printed on that ticket). Gruesse Olaf From thomas.fossati@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Jan 9 07:56:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A95A1AE38A for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:56:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z6V2v61rrf7B for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717D91AE412 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s09FtsOc005927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:55:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s09FtroB025481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:55:53 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA08.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.4.153]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:55:53 +0100 From: "FOSSATI, Thomas (Thomas)" To: Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: Aw: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE Thread-Index: AQHPDVNGKXcZQLcyyEij7GrnS0IWhQ== Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:55:52 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <08D07BF8A1F12D4D903ACEC495C88787@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Olaf Bergmann , Likepeng , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 15:56:19 -0000 SGkgSGFubmVzLA0KDQpPbiAwOS8wMS8yMDE0IDEzOjIxLCAiSGFubmVzIFRzY2hvZmVuaWciIDxI YW5uZXMuVHNjaG9mZW5pZ0BnbXgubmV0PiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+WWVzLCB0aGUgc2VjdGlvbiB3 b3VsZCBiZW5lZml0IGZyb20gYSBiaXQgbW9yZSBjbGFyaXR5IGluIGdlbmVyYWwuIEkNCj5ub3Rp Y2VkIHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgaGFyZCB0byBmb2xsb3cgd2hldGhlciB3ZSBhcmUgYWN0dWFsbHkgdGFs a2luZyBhYm91dA0KPnRoZSBjbGllbnQgb3IgdGhlIHNlcnZlciBpbiB2YXJpb3VzIHBhcmFncmFw aHMgc2luY2UgYm90aCBzaWRlcyBjYW4gaGF2ZQ0KPmNlcnRpZmljYXRlcyAob3Igb3RoZXIgY3Jl ZGVudGlhbHMpLg0KPkkgbGVhdmUgdGhhdCB0byB0aGUgY29yZSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwLg0KDQpU aGVyZeKAmXMgYSBkcmFmdCBpbiBteSBwZW5kaW5nIHF1ZXVlIGlmIHlvdSB3YW50IHRvIHNoYXJl IHRoZSBwYWluIDotKQ0KDQo+IA0KPkFzIGEgc2lkZSByZW1hcms6IEl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGludGVy ZXN0aW5nIHRvIGZpbmQgb3V0IGhvdyBsaWtlbHkgdGhlIHVzZQ0KPm9mIEROUyBpcyBnb2luZyB0 byBiZSBzaW5jZSBpdCByYWlzZXMgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGFib3V0IEROU1NFQyBhbmQgaG93DQo+ aXQgaW50ZXJhY3RzIHdpdGggdmFyaW91cyBvdGhlciBJb1Qgc3BlY2lmaWVkIHNlY3VyaXR5IG1l Y2hhbmlzbXMuDQoNClllcywgSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIHBvaW50IGlzIHZlcnkgaW1wb3J0YW50IOKA lCBpbiBmYWN0LCBub21pbmFsbHksIENvQVAgZG9lcw0Kbm90IG1ha2UgYW55IGFzc3VtcHRpb24g b24gRE5TLCB0aHVzIGhhdmluZyBtb3JlIGRhdGEgZnJvbSB0aGUgZmllbGQgd291bGQNCmhlbHAg dXMgc2hhcGluZyBkZXNpZ24gZGVjaXNpb25zLg0KDQpNb3JlIGdlbmVyYWxseSB0aGUgaXNzdWUg b2YgZ2l2aW5nIG5hbWVzIHRvIGFjdG9ycyAodmlhIENBLCBETlMsIFJELCBvcg0KYW55IG90aGVy IG1lYW5zKSwgYW5kIGhhbmRsaW5nIGF1dGhvcmlzYXRpb24gYXNzZXJ0aW9ucyB3aGVyZSB0aGVz ZSBuYW1lcw0KcmVwcmVzZW50IHRoZSBzdWJqZWN0cyBvciBvYmplY3RzIHRoZXJlb2YsIGlzIGF0 IHRoZSB2ZXJ5IGNvcmUgb2YgdGhlDQpwcm9ibGVtIHdlIGFyZSB0cnlpbmcgdG8gc29sdmUuICBJ IHRoaW5rIHdl4oCZbGwgbmVlZCB0byB3b3JrIHdpdGggQ29SRSB0bw0KbWFrZSB0aGlzIGEgbW9y ZSBzb2xpZCBncm91bmQgb24gd2hpY2ggdG8gYnVpbGQgQUNFPw0KDQo= From goran.selander@ericsson.com Fri Jan 10 00:03:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039531ADF95 for ; 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Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:03:18 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Hannes Tschofenig , Ludwig Seitz Thread-Topic: Aw: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE Thread-Index: AQHPDdprnaDHUV+LX0KNHp8kRiuOCA== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:03:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.18] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CEF564C319AC5goranselanderericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpkkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Rtdt5fkgg91/jCy+f+thtli68x6r xavWO8wOzB6LN+1n81iy5CeTR++x32wBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGTdb37IWTPSqOHdjDmsD 4w/7LkZODgkBE4ndp6ewQdhiEhfurQeyuTiEBE4wSjztesoE4SxhlFh49SA7SBWbgKvEgQfv mEBsEYEgif1HZoLFmQUUJdbN6QOLCws4SHw41cEMUeMo0XfqGiOErSdx4/RdVhCbRUBVYtX+ Y2CbeQUsJFZ2/gCrYQS64vupNUwQM8Ulbj2ZzwRxnYDEkj3nmSFsUYmXj/+BzREFmnnv0VwW iLiixMdX+xghemMlnvcuZoaYLyhxcuYTlgmMIrOQjJ2FpGwWkjKIONCpU6ewQdjaEssWvmaG sHUlZvw7BFVjLbFo8XcWZDULGDlWMUoWpxYX56YbGejlpueW6KUWZSYXF+fn6RWnbmIERuPB Lb+NdjCe3GN/iFGag0VJnPc6a02QkEB6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFpTmrxIUYmDk6pBsbep9F5r1I9 BFx3nuGQyai4rPI0o2CP8duNX46vNj9k9fxs98ai6j0uxjM1DY6WCt0VP3zxg1bCjf1Bk7U5 AoLe7zp9yfFuxfeEy0f+Pprnqbx7nsO2//xxv6O+XhVxKDjdvKI86OjiCtXgex32OVPnbDHY t20F1xTx7PNecpYh7LJhj396BfYqsRRnJBpqMRcVJwIA63fvQ5QCAAA= Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:03:32 -0000 --_000_CEF564C319AC5goranselanderericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/9/14 2:46 PM, "Ludwig Seitz" > w= rote: On 01/09/2014 02:27 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: You are certainly right that there are potential cases where the client asking for resources has no constraints. But equally likely it is that the device running the resource is not constrained but the client is. In the worst case both devices are constrained. From a protocol design point of view that's obviously a tricky situation. You can assume the worst case scenario or alternatively focus on specific scenarios only. That's where the requirements document would show some real value. I wonder what the views of others in the group are. In the use-case draft we assume that the server is constrained, and that the client could be constrained (i.e. your worst case). I think we never had detailed considerations on the case where only the client is constrained, although Stefanie Gerdes had it listed on a slide at IETF 88. My hunch is that case is much easier than the reverse one. I viewed the constrained client and unconstrained resource server as a case= which could be addressed with a proxy, reducing it to an unconstrained set= ting. The case of constrained resource server is more challenging. The (unc= onstrained) authorization server is introduced mainly because the resource = server cannot be assumed to perform the authorization decision. Still the d= ecision needs to be enforced in the resource server and moreover the decisi= on should allow to depend on local conditions in the resource server at the= time of executing the request. In any case, you are right that client and/or resource server may or may no= t be constrained, and this work must ensure the compatibility between the d= ifferent settings. G=F6ran Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. Januar 2014 um 13:00 Uhr Von: "G=F6ran Selander" > An: "Hannes Tschofenig" >, "ace@ietf.org" > Betreff: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE On 01/09/2014 12:28 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: PS: Btw, I would keep the main description of the ACE group as simple as "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources by constrained devices.". I would say "ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources on constrain= ed devices." The accessing device may be constrained or not. G=F6ran _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.o= rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace --_000_CEF564C319AC5goranselanderericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 1/9/14 2:46 PM, "Ludwig Seitz" <ludwig@sics.se> wrote:

On 01/09/2014 02:27 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
You are certainly right that there are potential cases where the clien= t
asking for resources has no constraints.
But equally likely it is that the device running the resource is not
constrained but the client is.
In the worst case both devices are constrained.
  From a protocol design point of view that's obviously a tr= icky
situation. You can assume the worst case scenario or alternatively foc= us
on specific scenarios only.
That's where the requirements document would show some real value.
I wonder what the views of others in the group are.

In the use-case draft we assume that the server is constrained, and th= at
the client could be constrained (i.e. your worst case).

I think we never had detailed considerations on the case where only th= e
client is constrained, although Stefanie Gerdes had it listed on a sli= de
at IETF 88. My hunch is that case is much easier than the reverse one.=

I viewed the constrained client and unconstrained resource server as a= case which could be addressed with a proxy, reducing it to an unconst= rained setting. The case of constrained resource server is more challenging= . The (unconstrained) authorization server is introduced mainly because the resource server cannot be assumed to perf= orm the authorization decision. Still the decision needs to be enforced in = the resource server and moreover the decision should allow to depend on loc= al conditions in the resource server at the time of executing the request.

In any case, you are right that client and/or resource server may or m= ay not be constrained, and this work must ensure the compatibility between = the different settings. 

G=F6ran
 
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. Jan= uar 2014 um 13:00 Uhr
Von: "G=F6ran Selander" <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] Relationship and difference with DICE
 
On 01/09/2014 12:28 PM, Hannes Tschof= enig wrote:
 
PS: Btw, I would keep the main description of the ACE group as simple = as
"ACE aims to enable authorized access to resources by constrained=
devices.".
 
 
I would say "ACE aims to en= able authorized access to resources on constrained
devices." The accessing device may be constrained or not.
 
G=F6ran
 
_______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
 --_000_CEF564C319AC5goranselanderericssoncom_-- From gerdes@tzi.de Tue Jan 14 00:35:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3CD1ACCE9 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:35:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D06eqKoH60A3 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FFB1AE222 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:35:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0E8Yu6M000901; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:34:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.146] (p508A76DE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.138.118.222]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7525550; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:34:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:34:53 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Bert Greevenbosch , =?UTF-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , Ludwig Seitz , Likepeng Subject: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:35:20 -0000 Hi everyone, We updated the draft charter according to helpful input from Ludwig Seitz and Göran Selander. I hope this improves the readability of the charter and clarifies the scope of ACE. We also added an item to the task list for documenting the applicability of various security mechanisms to address for example symmetric vs public key approaches. Please feel free to provide further comment. Best regards, Steffi Draft Charter V0.1- Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environment (ACE) The CoAP (Constrained Application Protocol) is a light-weight application layer protocol, especially suitable for applications such as smart energy, smart home, building automation, remote patient monitoring etc. Due to the nature of these applications, including a critical, unattended infrastructure and usage in the personal sphere, security and privacy protection are critical components. There are certain, necessary security functions that constrained devices cannot readily perform due to resource constraints. In particular, constrained devices often have no or very limited user interfaces. While authentication is well understood, at least for communication security, there are only unsufficient means for authenticated authorization. Especially cases where pre-provisioned ACLs scale badly or where more sophisticated identity and access management is needed are not covered. This includes the case where it is infeasible for a constrained server to perform the authorization decision and thus needs access to externally generated authorization information to be able to enforce the decision. Authentication is considered in this context as it is needed as a prerequisite to performing authorization, including the authorization to change the authorization state. The ACE WG aims to enable authorized access to resources in constrained environments, using CoAP and leveraging DTLS security where possible. Constrained devices will thus be enabled to authenticate operations from other (constrained or less-constrained) devices, to communicate securely with them and to verify their individual authorization to access specific resources. To achieve this, ACE will be able to employ additional less-constrained devices in order to relieve the constrained nodes from complex security related tasks (e.g. managing authorization policies and a large number of keys). The ACE WG has the following tasks: Document the use cases and high-level requirements for secured communication between constrained devices. (This task is pursued as a means to the other ends, not as an end in itself.) Flesh out profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization. Document the applicability of the various security mechanisms with respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, power consumption etc.). Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of authorization information suitable for constrained device to constrained device communication. Define formats for access tokens and for authorization information that are suitable for constrained devices. Define bootstrapping for authorization information using the Resource Directory (see ​ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-resource-directory). Existing work: Use Cases: ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-garcia-core-security ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-greevenbosch-core-authreq ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases Solutions: ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-kang-core-secure-reconfiguration ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-selander-core-access-control ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-zhu-core-groupauth ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-pporamba-dtls-certkey ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot ​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-seitz-core-security-modes ​http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sarikaya-ace-secure-bootstrapping From goran.selander@ericsson.com Tue Jan 14 05:16:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 863F81AE0CA for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:16:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.939 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.939 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k41IWJuHTqFq for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:16:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730581AE0D5 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:16:24 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f2b8e0000073bf-7f-52d5389dbb9a Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 07.C8.29631.D9835D25; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:16:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC012.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.54]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:15:36 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= To: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Charter Update Thread-Index: AQHPEQODYpam4LbFJUioLZLuB/tCYZqEM2aA Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:15:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.18] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CEFAE9D719DFCgoranselanderericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje5ci6tBBtObBCy+f+thtvj9ZAWr xcaLdxkt9hxuYrZ41XqH2YHVo+XIW1aPJUt+Mnn0HvvN5rHt7VfmAJYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsE roxJ3X1sBavfMlXMWdvC2sD45DFTFyMnh4SAicSvN8fYIGwxiQv31gPZXBxCAicYJZZfO8AI khASWMIoMX+6HYjNJuAi8aDhEViziICTRNeUbSwgNrNAucT6XdfA4sIC0hI9qzYC2RxANTIS y/qtIEwjiVWv/EEqWARUJT7vmMEOYvMKWEhc/v2MDaRECCi+fZ0ISJhTQE3i0qUGsOGMQJd9 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--_000_CEFAE9D719DFCgoranselanderericssoncom_-- From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Tue Jan 14 05:16:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7ED1AE0D9 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:16:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.454 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.454 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-WrsRxfz8ti for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFAF01AE0D4 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs15.server.lan ([172.19.170.67]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MNwO5-1W177I0JNz-007Xqk for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:16:19 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs15.server.lan with HTTP; Tue Jan 14 14:16:19 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Stefanie Gerdes" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:16:19 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:yY4IWO3DS1IxFJ1F5Cm0nsPiMl8bWnAD8anlYMyYfzN HN30HvIc2v0UmROMTiGcmZ+kRZ6GSR0L9aEUAIZpmeIzTv/kOQ WAo9HxIxfIQbHn3ItGliInmC09iAyrFvw06vp1WfjWYTea+0B6 UNj1Y/z8PZOfrgtJ+bxhi7zp7B7MCYbpqv+reF5c+LXHEYoW88 B/UA2GcF281P/dVa1DEJPiEC2a16QGun02u+8/MDcCrIIP6J+u vW3gQxVR0hcEKx87shs4/CbzbD+S4OPx/IUUOzZ4BKlxTu9YMB OtPnxc= Cc: Bert Greevenbosch , =?UTF-8?Q?=22G=C3=B6ran_Selander=22?= , Ludwig Seitz , Likepeng , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:16:34 -0000
Thanks for the update, Stefanie. 
 
One aspect I do not yet find covered in the document is about the assumptions that serve as a starting point, as I tried to explain in this email: 
 
#1) You already have a secret pre-provisioned on the device. You want to leverage that existing secret to access new services. 
 
#2) You have no secret pre-provisioned. The approaches here are sometimes referred as imprinting or pairing.
 
In the response to my mail Carsten said that both cases have to be covered in the scope of the group. I have not heard other folks providing their views but I was wondering whether this topic deserves to get mentioned. Currently, there is no solution draft for #2 (at least not that I can see it).  
 
Another important aspect that got mentioned in discussions and also in the drafts is that there is the desire to have an offline authorization operation. This has quite some implications for the protocol designs and rules out techniques likes AAA or some OAuth extensions. The resource server has to support an authorization mode where any request it receives can be processed locally without having to consult with an identity management server. I was not quite sure whether this is captured in the current text version (one of the paragraphs sounded a bit fuzzy to me). 
 
The text about authentication and authorization is still a bit confusing in the charter and so is the dependency on CoAP. 
For authentication there are actually several types of authentication, namely (a) from the device to the identity provider / authorization server and (b) authentication information about the device that is provided by the authorization server/ identity provider to the resource server / relying party. While the authentication of the device to the identity provider is needed authentication of the device to the resource server is not necessary (only key confirmation is). 
 
I actually believe that the charter text could be even more specific. For category #1 solutions I believe we are talking about applying existing solutions to the IoT environment. The only solutions that IMHO fit the requirements so far are Kerberos, OAuth, and (attribute) certificates. Why not to start the entire write-up with the though process some of us went through, namely 
 
a) There are existing federated authentication, authorization and key establishment protocols (Kerberos, OAuth, ...)
 
b) We want to apply those to the IoT environment but there are problems when meeting the constraint nature of these devices (no UI, no ability for the device to interact with an identity management server in real-time). 
 
c) We want to select a mechanism and profile it so that it can be used in the IoT context.  
 
What do you think? 
 
 
Ciao
Hannes
Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Januar 2014 um 08:34 Uhr
Von: "Stefanie Gerdes" <gerdes@tzi.de>
An: ace@ietf.org
Cc: "Bert Greevenbosch" <Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com>, "Göran Selander" <goran.selander@ericsson.com>, "Ludwig Seitz" <ludwig@sics.se>, Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
Betreff: [Ace] Charter Update
Hi everyone,

We updated the draft charter according to helpful input from Ludwig
Seitz and Göran Selander. I hope this improves the readability of the
charter and clarifies the scope of ACE.

We also added an item to the task list for documenting the applicability
of various security mechanisms to address for example symmetric vs
public key approaches.

Please feel free to provide further comment.

Best regards,
Steffi


Draft Charter V0.1- Authentication and Authorization for Constrained
Environment (ACE)

The CoAP (Constrained Application Protocol) is a light-weight
application layer protocol, especially suitable for applications such as
smart energy, smart home, building automation, remote patient monitoring
etc. Due to the nature of these applications, including a critical,
unattended infrastructure and usage in the personal sphere, security and
privacy protection are critical components.

There are certain, necessary security functions that constrained
devices cannot readily perform due to resource constraints. In
particular, constrained devices often have no or very limited user
interfaces. While authentication is well understood, at least for
communication security, there are only unsufficient means for
authenticated authorization. Especially cases where pre-provisioned
ACLs scale badly or where more sophisticated identity and access
management is needed are not covered. This includes the case where it
is infeasible for a constrained server to perform the authorization
decision and thus needs access to externally generated authorization
information to be able to enforce the decision. Authentication is
considered in this context as it is needed as a prerequisite to
performing authorization, including the authorization to change the
authorization state.

The ACE WG aims to enable authorized access to resources in constrained
environments, using CoAP and leveraging DTLS security where possible.
Constrained devices will thus be enabled to authenticate operations from
other (constrained or less-constrained) devices, to communicate securely
with them and to verify their individual authorization to access
specific resources. To achieve this, ACE will be able to employ
additional less-constrained devices in order to relieve the constrained
nodes from complex security related tasks (e.g. managing authorization
policies and a large number of keys).

The ACE WG has the following tasks:

Document the use cases and high-level requirements for secured
communication between constrained devices. (This task is pursued as a
means to the other ends, not as an end in itself.)
Flesh out profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization.
Document the applicability of the various security mechanisms with
respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, power consumption
etc.).
Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of
authorization information suitable for constrained device to constrained
device communication.
Define formats for access tokens and for authorization information
that are suitable for constrained devices.
Define bootstrapping for authorization information using the Resource
Directory (see ​
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-resource-directory).

Existing work:

Use Cases:

​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-garcia-core-security
​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-greevenbosch-core-authreq
​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases

Solutions:

​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize
​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-kang-core-secure-reconfiguration
​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-selander-core-access-control
​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-zhu-core-groupauth
​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-pporamba-dtls-certkey
​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot
​http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-seitz-core-security-modes
​http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sarikaya-ace-secure-bootstrapping

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From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Tue Jan 14 05:22:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1F11AE0CE for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:22:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rY0-MDETwPnA for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E051AE0C0 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs15.server.lan ([172.19.170.67]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MMIE7-1VzSu03mtZ-0086Jb for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:21:57 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs15.server.lan with HTTP; Tue Jan 14 14:21:57 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Carsten Bormann" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:21:57 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <40C9698F-FB2F-40A5-8607-64D262A941C0@tzi.org> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AD78E8@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52CBF654.80806@sics.se>, <40C9698F-FB2F-40A5-8607-64D262A941C0@tzi.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:dA3/YTGGPxk6suxWyO4MGiJ1KqcIrhK5qOteSenPiUY wpxk0m9IchW1AwixBHzyXCUmUUEHx8mL1jNn/wmOWDv7abHj/c CSHyXj+eY1gMPU3jFLliAFbWgZSigFbTXKDP/fcAUat85GT6wT kwJpIS+ppqj3sV8sJcKA+iIHGgYa/jRt3L4lGHpth+R/zhR3vw Qyk0NAv0sp9LGGiHRNl2siEQAEnYBB/1C7a4AkAW8PT9oczSH/ fIFCgmrWzzL3XpxG4HDt+S8wEPwx0d+qL7EHxHATCVBt8t+TRy WAx5tc= Cc: Ludwig Seitz , ace@ietf.org Subject: [Ace] BOF in APPS? Aw: Re: BoF in London X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:22:11 -0000
It is great that Barry volunteered to be the responsible AD it sounds a bit strange to have a group like this that is full of security to be in APPS IMHO. 
Of course the IESG should sort this out but it is still surprising. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 07. Januar 2014 um 12:55 Uhr
Von: "Carsten Bormann" <cabo@tzi.org>
An: "Ludwig Seitz" <ludwig@sics.se>
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [Ace] BoF in London
On 07 Jan 2014, at 13:43, Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se> wrote:

> Quick question: Why is the BoF listed under "Applications"? Shouldn't that rather be in the Security area?

Barry Leiba has volunteered to be the responsible AD for the BOF, which makes this an APP area BOF.
Any working group formed from this BOF doesn't have to be in the same area.
(BOFs are scheduled in such a way that cross-area attention is enabled.
The BOF chairs will have to make sure to advertise the BOF enough in, say, SAAG.)

Grüße, Carsten

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From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Tue Jan 14 05:34:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBF11AE0D6 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3JRwmMIHbXH6 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548591AE055 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs15.server.lan ([172.19.170.67]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx002) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LlKmm-1VTS8Z0w6g-00b59A for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:34:37 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs15.server.lan with HTTP; Tue Jan 14 14:34:37 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Ludwig Seitz" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:34:37 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <52B022AD.4040306@sics.se> References: <5CAF87B9-7312-4AB6-A7BE-E4C66ADEC2CA@tzi.org> <52AAC3DD.9030802@sics.se> <52AF6968.1050303@gmx.net>, <52B022AD.4040306@sics.se> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:aycBKgRduFQM6r3YU5XVkFyl4IPvfyMDhDlUn+bWwkM ejiS5cAvMy0nFWxOugdx2zzHc/8J2SN9WmCUCqZIT1lrRLSBVE 4z+NtDQ/PCjRw3bmAIw32CUr5ZLJGKDksDBxP2Gi0cssEeuBVb PmeuczSS/ggg5yS7USNzW67YWDb/zBpA0ulWqJuks7aF41+HZU +QiNLv0AsSR28Eki/fA9v8M03pKxQvxOW9jNQPGRJetp3VPhnM T0RydBPRpnVX7uCquVlWABcGoRrOPbDWfF55+/dlaMxWFWgx1E /xZZ58= Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Access Control Lists in CoAP X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:34:51 -0000
Hi Ludwig, 
 
I forgot to respond to this mail. 
 
The XACML statistics you see are mostly a marketing trick. What big companies selling identity management servers do is to bundle many of the protocols together (whether you need it or not). 
Then, these boxes may internally use something like XACML (like Nokia used the OMA SUPL protocol between their Nokia phones and their Nokia-operated location server). 
 
The question we have to deal with here is where is the need for interoperability. Do you get away without specifying a language that describes your access control decisions. FreeRADIUS also uses an access control policy language but it does not require interoperability. 
 
In fact it turns out that the security functionality is an important part of product stickiness and so there is little incentive for companies selling identity products to have individual parts exchangable. Therefore, they claim to be standards compliant but then they have all sorts of extensions that it does not work well in a real-world environment. 
 
Just search for "XACML is dead"  and you will see lots of discussions from last year about the "success' of XACML and how vendors and "independent" consultants react to those. 
 
In any case, what is important here for this group is not whether XACML is a good protocol or not. I think we all agree that it is completely unsuitable for the IoT context. 
In the discussions I have understood that some folks want to standardize the "offline case", as I call it, where a device wants to request resources on a server and the server does not, in real-time, reaches out to some backend database/policy decision point/etc. 
 
This unfortunately requires some form of policy to be conveyed. Whether the minimalistic approach of OAuth is the right way (with the scopes) or whether something like a KeyNote http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2704 or something else I don't really know. The group will have to figure it out based on some real-world use cases. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Dezember 2013 um 10:08 Uhr
Von: "Ludwig Seitz" <ludwig@sics.se>
An: Kein Empfänger
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [Ace] Access Control Lists in CoAP
On 12/16/2013 09:58 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Very good question, Paul.
>
> Historically, standardizing access control policies has not been very
> successful (neither in the IETF nor in other organizations).

Sorry, but this is just wrong.

Just have a look at XACML and the list of companies using it [1] (and
that list is hardly up to date).
There are several companies selling XACML products (including Oracle,
IBM, Quest, NextLabs, and Axiomatics).
If you look at e.g. the Axiomatics customer list [2] a lot of companies
are buying these products (e.g. Bank of America, PayPal, Bell
Helicopter, Boeing, the Swedish Public Employment Service, DATEV, Swiss Re).

Identity and Access Management is a very small market and it takes a lot
of convincing to make companies buy anything new in that sector (since
it doesn't affect sales immediately), but I'd claim that
XACML has been very successful as far as standardizing access control
policies goes.

/Ludwig


[1]
https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/42588/xacmlRefs-V1-85.html#Products

[2] https://axiomatics.com/customers.html

--
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelevägen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se

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From ludwig@sics.se Tue Jan 14 05:59:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2F71AE0CF for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:59:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kMgri39SMXxf for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624221ADFA7 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 05:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0EDtrug018976; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:58:47 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1h9yc6vf2u-1; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:58:47 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B513E400E2; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:58:47 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D54297.8060301@sics.se> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:58:47 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hannes Tschofenig References: <5CAF87B9-7312-4AB6-A7BE-E4C66ADEC2CA@tzi.org> <52AAC3DD.9030802@sics.se> <52AF6968.1050303@gmx.net>, <52B022AD.4040306@sics.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050905080807000208080301" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-14_04:2014-01-14,2014-01-14,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401140063 Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Access Control Lists in CoAP X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:59:05 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050905080807000208080301 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/14/2014 02:34 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Ludwig, > I forgot to respond to this mail. > The XACML statistics you see are mostly [...] vendors and > "independent" consultants react to those. I'll take that discussion another time and off-list, since this would be = off-topic here. > In any case, what is important here for this group is not whether XACML= > is a good protocol or not. I think we all agree that it is completely > unsuitable for the IoT context. It is clearly unsuitable to expect constrained devices to process XACML, = what the unconstrained back-end AAA-servers do is a completely different = question. I think you are mixing together two things here that should be separate: Access control policies and statements about authorization decisions. I'd go as far as saying that it's unrealistic to expect constrained=20 devices to evaluate _any_ access control policy that is more complex=20 than an ACL. Therefore, if the use case calls for something more=20 sophisticated than an ACL we should transfer authorization decisions=20 (made by unconstrained AAA servers) to the device and have them enforce=20 that decision instead of trying to send them access control policies. --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms050905080807000208080301 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh 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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06nT8m7xflMA for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23681AE1D9 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BCM59816; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:32:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:32:10 +0000 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X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:33:09 -0000 SGkgSGFubmVzLA0KDQpUaGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIHlvdXIgY29tbWVudHMsIGFuZCBzb3JyeSBmb3Ig bXkgbGF0ZSByZXNwb25zZS4NCg0KUGxlYXNlIGZpbmQgbXkgcmVwbGllcyBpbmxpbmUuDQoNCj4g WW91ciBmaXJzdCB1c2UgY2FzZSAoU2VjdGlvbiAzLjE7IG1heWJlIGFsc28gU2VjdGlvbiAzLjg/ KSB3aXRoIHRoZSB0aXRsZSDigJxhdXRob3JpemVkIGFuZCB1bmF1dGhvcml6ZWQgZGV2aWNlc+KA nSBtYWtlIGFuIGludGVyZXN0aW5nIGRpc3RpbmN0aW9uIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIHR3byB0eXBlcyBv ZiBkZXZpY2VzLiBZb3UgYmFzaWNhbGx5IGRyYXcgdGhlIGxpbmUgYmFzZWQgb24gd2hldGhlciB0 aGUgZGV2aWNlIHBhc3NlZCBjZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIHRlc3RpbmcgKG9yIG5vdCkuIER1cmluZyB0 aGUgcHJvdG9jb2wgZXhlY3V0aW9uIHlvdSBzZWVtIHRvIGFzc3VtZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBhdXRoZW50 aWNhdGlvbiBjcmVkZW50aWFscyByZXZlYWwgd2hldGhlciBhIGRldmljZSBwYXNzZWQgY2VydGlm 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([153.88.183.45]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 09:02:49 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= To: Hannes Tschofenig , Stefanie Gerdes Thread-Topic: Aw: [Ace] Charter Update Thread-Index: AQHPEcguQYpnU0W3mkenFYxtJ9lCUQ== Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:02:49 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.18] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CEFB9A6619EB5goranselanderericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Rnelw7Ugg6mXjS2+f+thtvj9ZAWr xcaLdxktlu68x2qx53ATs8Wr1jvMDmweizftZ/NoOfKW1WPJkp9MHr3HfrN5bHv7lTmANYrL JiU1J7MstUjfLoErY8eGo+wFf3cxVZxfxt7AeGcTUxcjJ4eEgIlE14YlbBC2mMSFe+vBbCGB Q4wSzy9wdzFyAdlLGCUW3DrHCpJgE3CReNDwCKxZRCBEYn3DNiaQImaBaYwSDf8bwYqEBVQl Jk25zwhRpCZx/MJd9i5GDiBbT+Lui2KQMAtQyberfWDLeAUsJNZdPAxmMwId8f3UGrD5zALi 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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L40OA3m_DszO for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96EA1AE021 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id AZZ40957; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:33:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 06:32:19 +0000 Received: from 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aWNlcyBhcmUgdG8gYWNjZXB0YWJsZSBjb3VsZCBkZXBlbmQgb24gbXVsdGlwbGUgZmFjdG9ycywg Ym90aCBjcnlwdG9ncmFwaGljIGFuZCBvdGhlciwgYW5kIG1heSBvciBtYXkgbm90IGludm9sdmUg dGhlIENBLg0KDQpDQXMgY2FuIGRlZmluZSBtaW5pbXVtIHNlY3VyaXR5IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBm b3IgZGV2aWNlcyBhcyBhIHByZXJlcXVpc2l0ZSB0byBpc3N1ZSBhIGNlcnRpZmljYXRlLiBFeGFt cGxlcyBhcmUgY2VydGlmaWNhdGVzIGZvciBEUk0gY2xpZW50cywgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyBhbiBhcHAt c3RvcmUsIHdoaWNoIGNhbiBkZWNpZGUgdG8gbm90IGNlcnRpZnkgY2VydGFpbiBhcHBzLg0KDQpJ IGFtIHN0aWxsIGZvY3VzaW5nIG9uIFguNTA5IGNlcnRpZmljYXRlcyBoZXJlLiBIb3dldmVyLCBJ IHRoaW5rIHRoZSBvdGhlciBzZWN1cml0eSBtb2Rlcywgc3VjaCBhcyBpbiBDb0FQIFJhdyBQdWJs aWMgS2V5IGFuZCBQcmUtU2hhcmVkIEtleSwgd291bGQgcmVxdWlyZSBzaW1pbGFyIGNvbnNpZGVy YXRpb25zLg0KDQpJIGhvcGUgdGhpcyBpcyBhIGJldHRlciByZXNwb25zZS4gOi0pDQoNCkJlc3Qg cmVnYXJkcywNCkJlcnQNCg== From bergmann@tzi.org Thu Jan 16 04:49:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8542D1AE337 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 04:49:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yl6N0MMdxiO4 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 04:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CFD1AE336 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 04:49:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0GCmeYw003608; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:48:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (unknown [134.102.117.184]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 90E208D1; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:48:40 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: "Hannes Tschofenig" In-Reply-To: (Hannes Tschofenig's message of "Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:16:19 +0100 (CET)") Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:40:56 +0100 References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) Message-ID: <877ga0t7mf.fsf@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Bert Greevenbosch , Likepeng , ace@ietf.org, Stefanie Gerdes , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , Ludwig Seitz Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 12:49:11 -0000 Hannes, "Hannes Tschofenig" writes: > Thanks for the update, Stefanie.=A0 > =A0 > One aspect I do not yet find covered in the document is about the > assumptions that serve as a starting point, as I tried to explain in > this email:=A0 > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00043.html > =A0 > #1) You already have a secret pre-provisioned on the device. You want > to leverage that existing secret to access new services.=A0 > =A0 > #2) You have no secret pre-provisioned. The approaches here are > sometimes referred as imprinting or pairing. > =A0 > In the response to my mail Carsten said that both cases have to be > covered in the scope of the group. I have not heard other folks > providing their views but I was wondering whether this topic deserves > to get mentioned. Currently, there is no solution draft for #2 (at > least not that I can see it).=A0=A0 we did write up a proposal for #2 some time ago, with a couple of proof-of-concept implementations. The corresponding I-D from Carsten has expired, meanwhile. For ACE, I would prefer the view that there is already a secret on the device, either pre=3Dprovisioned or generated by means of imprinting/pairing. I had the impression that this group has agreed on this as well (and leaving the "bootstrapping" of keying material to, e.g., solace. Do you think that ACE should address this instead? > Another important aspect that got mentioned in discussions and also in > the drafts is that there is the desire to have an offline > authorization operation. This has quite some implications for the > protocol designs and rules out techniques likes AAA or some OAuth > extensions. The=A0resource server has to support an authorization mode > where any request it receives can be processed locally without having > to consult with an identity management server. I was not quite sure > whether this is captured in the current text version (one of the > paragraphs sounded a bit fuzzy to me).=A0 At least there should be a sound default state so that the resource server can work properly in case its identity management server (I understand this as the entity that issues authorization tokens in this context, right?) is unreachable. Isn't this addressed implicitely by the usual goal of robust design? Gruesse Olaf From gerdes@tzi.de Thu Jan 16 07:27:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEEFF1AE377 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:27:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9dUwfNYdjmJc for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235571AE36D for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:27:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0GFR9RK023976 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:27:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.102.218.230] (dynamic-218-c.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30050A4C for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:27:09 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:27:08 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:27:32 -0000 Hi everybody, We have a lot of topics and proposed charter changes right now. To speed things up a little, I would like to summarize the main open issues. I hope that will make it easier to find consent about them and helps us to decide which topics should be in the scope of ACE. Of course it is difficult to decide what the main issues are. I tried to filter out topics concerning the comprehensibility at this point. We can get back to them later when we the general scope is clear. If I left out a very important topic please feel free to state your opinion (and maybe explain why you think this is significant for the scope of ACE) 1. No pre-provisioned keys. There was some discussion about the case where there is no pre-provisioned secret on the constrained device. Is this in the scope of ACE? I had the impression that more people think that it isn't? 2. Offline authorization (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). Does ACE want to cover the problem that a resource server might need to process requests without consulting some kind of identity management server? 3. Profiling existing authentication, authorization and key management protocols (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). a) Is it in the scope of ACE to profile protocols like Kerberos, OAuth etc. b) to which of the various steps during authorization (i.e. device<->identity manager, identity manager<->resource server, ...) do these profiles/protocols apply? 4. Security modes for CoAP (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? Please state your opinion on these topics. Best regards, Steffi From ludwig@sics.se Thu Jan 16 07:48:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2C31ADFE3 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:48:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EACdygX5MbhJ for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783031ADED7 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0GFj6mR002319 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:47:54 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1h9yc71shd-1 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:47:54 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0B59940116 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:47:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D7FF29.70103@sics.se> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:47:53 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070702020309040704070503" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-16_06:2014-01-15,2014-01-16,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401160086 Subject: Re: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:48:11 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070702020309040704070503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/16/2014 04:27 PM, Stefanie Gerdes wrote: > Hi everybody, > > We have a lot of topics and proposed charter changes right now. To spee= d > things up a little, I would like to summarize the main open issues. I > hope that will make it easier to find consent about them and helps us t= o > decide which topics should be in the scope of ACE. > > Of course it is difficult to decide what the main issues are. I tried t= o > filter out topics concerning the comprehensibility at this point. We ca= n > get back to them later when we the general scope is clear. If I left ou= t > a very important topic please feel free to state your opinion (and mayb= e > explain why you think this is significant for the scope of ACE) > > 1. No pre-provisioned keys. There was some discussion about the case > where there is no pre-provisioned secret on the constrained device. Is > this in the scope of ACE? I had the impression that more people think > that it isn't? > I think this is out of scope. > 2. Offline authorization > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). Does > ACE want to cover the problem that a resource server might need to > process requests without consulting some kind of identity management se= rver? > Yes this is exactly what we want to cover. That's why we are planning to = work on token formats in the solutions. Otherwise the resource server=20 needs to manage two connections at the same time (one with the client=20 and one with the IAM server), that doesn't seem realistic for many device= s. Do people think this should go into the charter though (it might also be = a result of the design criteria work)? > 3. Profiling existing authentication, authorization and key management > protocols > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). > a) Is it in the scope of ACE to profile protocols like Kerberos, OAuth = etc. We should at least look at them and clearly state why we are inventing=20 something different if we do. b) > to which of the various steps during authorization (i.e. > device<->identity manager, identity manager<->resource server, ...) do > these profiles/protocols apply? > All steps directly involving at least one constrained device. I'm not=20 interested in standardizing what the AS internally uses to make access=20 control decisions for example, but if the client is constrained, the=20 communication between AS and Client must be part of the standard. > 4. Security modes for CoAP > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it= > in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? I'm obviously biased here, since it's the title of my draft. My main=20 argument for including this is that the security modes are the first=20 authorization step. What you do is to authorize the client to establish=20 a DTLS connection in the first place. tl;dr 1.) Not in scope, 2.) In scope, 3.) Might be 4.) In scope. Regards, Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms070702020309040704070503 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 1X16kPMKGvwps8F1oDhYn7jXIe46p1AuJMzLK0GIioE4JwxCFGdvpz7cg2xyTyrdBVUzSqez 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from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fV1WVWEVKF52 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A211AE37E for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from authenticated sender schmitt by ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (postfix) with ESMTPSA id SA for <33D0976074>; ace@ietf.org Message-ID: <52D80396.9050806@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:06:46 +0100 From: Corinna Schmitt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> <52D7FF29.70103@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <52D7FF29.70103@sics.se> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040407040000060806080802" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at ladislav X-Virus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:07:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040407040000060806080802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HAllo Ludwig, good argumentation. I agree with your points. Regards, Corinna Am 16.01.14 16:47, schrieb Ludwig Seitz: > On 01/16/2014 04:27 PM, Stefanie Gerdes wrote: >> Hi everybody, >> >> We have a lot of topics and proposed charter changes right now. To speed >> things up a little, I would like to summarize the main open issues. I >> hope that will make it easier to find consent about them and helps us to >> decide which topics should be in the scope of ACE. >> >> Of course it is difficult to decide what the main issues are. I tried to >> filter out topics concerning the comprehensibility at this point. We can >> get back to them later when we the general scope is clear. If I left out >> a very important topic please feel free to state your opinion (and maybe >> explain why you think this is significant for the scope of ACE) >> >> 1. No pre-provisioned keys. There was some discussion about the case >> where there is no pre-provisioned secret on the constrained device. Is >> this in the scope of ACE? I had the impression that more people think >> that it isn't? >> > > I think this is out of scope. > > >> 2. Offline authorization >> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). Does >> ACE want to cover the problem that a resource server might need to >> process requests without consulting some kind of identity management >> server? >> > > Yes this is exactly what we want to cover. That's why we are planning > to work on token formats in the solutions. Otherwise the resource > server needs to manage two connections at the same time (one with the > client and one with the IAM server), that doesn't seem realistic for > many devices. > > Do people think this should go into the charter though (it might also > be a result of the design criteria work)? > >> 3. Profiling existing authentication, authorization and key management >> protocols >> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). > >> a) Is it in the scope of ACE to profile protocols like Kerberos, >> OAuth etc. > > We should at least look at them and clearly state why we are inventing > something different if we do. > > b) >> to which of the various steps during authorization (i.e. >> device<->identity manager, identity manager<->resource server, ...) do >> these profiles/protocols apply? >> > > All steps directly involving at least one constrained device. I'm not > interested in standardizing what the AS internally uses to make access > control decisions for example, but if the client is constrained, the > communication between AS and Client must be part of the standard. > > >> 4. Security modes for CoAP >> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it >> in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? > > I'm obviously biased here, since it's the title of my draft. My main > argument for including this is that the security modes are the first > authorization step. What you do is to authorize the client to > establish a DTLS connection in the first place. > > > tl;dr 1.) Not in scope, 2.) In scope, 3.) Might be 4.) In scope. > > Regards, > > Ludwig > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace -- --------------040407040000060806080802 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------020009050607080603030808" --------------020009050607080603030808 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
HAllo Ludwig,

good argumentation.
I agree with your points.

Regards,
Corinna

Am 16.01.14 16:47, schrieb Ludwig Seitz:
On 01/16/2014 04:27 PM, Stefanie Gerdes wrote:
Hi everybody,

We have a lot of topics and proposed charter changes right now. To speed
things up a little, I would like to summarize the main open issues. I
hope that will make it easier to find consent about them and helps us to
decide which topics should be in the scope of ACE.

Of course it is difficult to decide what the main issues are. I tried to
filter out topics concerning the comprehensibility at this point. We can
get back to them later when we the general scope is clear. If I left out
a very important topic please feel free to state your opinion (and maybe
explain why you think this is significant for the scope of ACE)

1. No pre-provisioned keys. There was some discussion about the case
where there is no pre-provisioned secret on the constrained device. Is
this in the scope of ACE? I had the impression that more people think
that it isn't?


I think this is out of scope.


2. Offline authorization
(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). Does
ACE want to cover the problem that a resource server might need to
process requests without consulting some kind of identity management server?


Yes this is exactly what we want to cover. That's why we are planning to work on token formats in the solutions. Otherwise the resource server needs to manage two connections at the same time (one with the client and one with the IAM server), that doesn't seem realistic for many devices.

Do people think this should go into the charter though (it might also be a result of the design criteria work)?

3. Profiling existing authentication, authorization and key management
protocols
(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html).

a) Is it in the scope of ACE to profile protocols like Kerberos, OAuth etc.

We should at least look at them and clearly state why we are inventing something different if we do.

b)
to which of the various steps during authorization (i.e.
device<->identity manager, identity manager<->resource server, ...) do
these profiles/protocols apply?


All steps directly involving at least one constrained device. I'm not interested in standardizing what the AS internally uses to make access control decisions for example, but if the client is constrained, the communication between AS and Client must be part of the standard.


4. Security modes for CoAP
(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it
in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP?

I'm obviously biased here, since it's the title of my draft. My main argument for including this is that the security modes are the first authorization step. What you do is to authorize the client to establish a DTLS connection in the first place.


tl;dr  1.) Not in scope, 2.) In scope, 3.) Might be 4.) In scope.

Regards,

Ludwig 



_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44921AE35F for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:24:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dhZEDz7icOMZ for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05831AE24D for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:24:23 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f2b8e0000073bf-59-52d807a914dd Received: from ESESSHC018.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F8.C3.29631.9A708D25; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:24:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC018.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.72]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:24:09 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Open Issues Thread-Index: AQHPEs90KKLZNSLAWkaCJ/RTtKV6zpqHiSqA Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:24:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje4q9htBBrs2cll8/9bDbLHx4l1G ByaPJUt+Mnlse/uVOYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSuj5dQ51oI/shXnJvk1MJ6W6GLk4JAQMJGY clGzi5ETyBSTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMAJRol7jTdZIJwljBI7Vi9kBaliE3CVOPDgHROILSLgJNE1 ZRsLiC0sICexcMZGZoi4vMSNWWvZIGwjieZjDUwgy1gEVCX67wiAhHkFLCQWtKxmB7GFBBQl ti/6B1bOKaAksWXfDrDxjEAHfT+1BsxmFhCXuPVkPhPEoQISS/acZ4awRSVePv4HdpqogJ7E vUdzWSDiihIfX+1jhOjVk7gxdQobhG0tMenVIqi4tsSyha+ZIe4RlDg58wnLBEbxWUjWzULS PgtJ+ywk7bOQtC9gZF3FKFmcWlycm25koJebnluil1qUmVxcnJ+nV5y6iREYcwe3/DbawXhy j/0hRmkOFiVx3uusNUFCAumJJanZqakFqUXxRaU5qcWHGJk4OKUaGDfuMWkVvOzOtqJsud3u 2owbBwVzbXdfueS6eSM3x4z6UIm5ZamnWMwYvm80uRv29pQ+5+XbYQfXKlp2/moXkLEV9Jqx qJLjUu7WSzwcds9P/91goPFghZMQ01WRHOYpN3NfTzATai3KCjqvk/OgMK6CKXi9QXWoJ2PZ iU1uZ54camiYGp96XYmlOCPRUIu5qDgRAAUYdxCHAgAA Subject: Re: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:24:25 -0000 Hi Steffi Comments inline. On 1/16/14 4:27 PM, "Stefanie Gerdes" wrote: >Hi everybody, > >We have a lot of topics and proposed charter changes right now. To speed >things up a little, I would like to summarize the main open issues. I >hope that will make it easier to find consent about them and helps us to >decide which topics should be in the scope of ACE. > >Of course it is difficult to decide what the main issues are. I tried to >filter out topics concerning the comprehensibility at this point. We can >get back to them later when we the general scope is clear. If I left out >a very important topic please feel free to state your opinion (and maybe >explain why you think this is significant for the scope of ACE) > >1. No pre-provisioned keys. There was some discussion about the case >where there is no pre-provisioned secret on the constrained device. Is >this in the scope of ACE? I had the impression that more people think >that it isn't? Correct, main case is shared keys *between resource server and authorization server*, e.g. secret key of authorization server provisioned to resource server. However, there need not be any a priori shared keys between client and resource server. > >2. Offline authorization >(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). Does >ACE want to cover the problem that a resource server might need to >process requests without consulting some kind of identity management >server? I think there may be a misunderstanding or unclear formulation (?). Do you mean "without consulting some kind of identity management server" *at all* or "without consulting some kind of identity management server" *as part of the resource request response procedure*. I think "offline" refers to the case that the resource server is not assumed to be able (for reasons of its constrained nature) to contact the authorization server for an authorization decision. This case is clearly covered in the proposed solutions and should be in scope. > >3. Profiling existing authentication, authorization and key management >protocols >(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). a) Is >it in the scope of ACE to profile protocols like Kerberos, OAuth etc. b) >to which of the various steps during authorization (i.e. >device<->identity manager, identity manager<->resource server, ...) do >these profiles/protocols apply? I think it is in scope of ACE of not re-inventing the wheel :-) Having said that it is clear that none of these protocols are optimized for constrained environments. And I believe it is not necessary to redesign an existing protocols for a task which it was not designed for, whatever the cost, just because the protocol exists. However in the case of OAuth, which is addressing a similar problem space, we should ensure that we don't prevent its use in some parts e.g. in acquisition of access token if the client is non-constrained, token formats, etc.; whereas other parts, e.g. the protocol between client and resource server may potentially need to be different compared to OAuth. > >4. Security modes for CoAP >(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it >in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? I am also biased when I say that this should be in scope. But this is not only about the "security modes" draft, the work item on "profiles for certificates" in the current charter draft (contributed by someone else), is also work on improving CoAP security modes. Best regards, G=F6ran > >Please state your opinion on these topics. > >Best regards, >Steffi > >_______________________________________________ >Ace mailing list >Ace@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From gerdes@tzi.de Thu Jan 16 08:48:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50AA21AE21D for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:48:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPbXD-7NnUax for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36CC1AE14D for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:48:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0GGm8Ar006880 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:48:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.102.218.230] (dynamic-218-c.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ABCAFB50 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:48:08 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D80D48.3090805@tzi.de> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:48:08 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> <52D7FF29.70103@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <52D7FF29.70103@sics.se> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:48:25 -0000 Hi Ludwig, On 01/16/2014 04:47 PM, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > On 01/16/2014 04:27 PM, Stefanie Gerdes wrote: > >> 4. Security modes for CoAP >> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it >> in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? > > I'm obviously biased here, since it's the title of my draft. My main > argument for including this is that the security modes are the first > authorization step. What you do is to authorize the client to establish > a DTLS connection in the first place. > I think it is interesting to think about the various possible solutions for authenticating the authorization information such as symmetric and asymmetric key approaches or even object security. I am not sure, however, if we need new security modes for CoAP for that. Don't we just need to define how we use the existing ones? Best regards, Steffi From Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com Thu Jan 16 21:43:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D48F1ADF72 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 21:43:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NUzYXpcY-HnX for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 21:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4941ADF70 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2014 21:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAA71009; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 05:42:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 05:41:53 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.34) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 05:42:51 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.206]) by SZXEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:42:45 +0800 From: Bert Greevenbosch To: "ace@ietf.org" , Stefanie Gerdes Thread-Topic: [Ace] Open Issues Thread-Index: AQHPEs91JAx6q+0dNUew1nGXbNR5KZqIPDVg Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 05:42:44 +0000 Message-ID: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3DDED6@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.162.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 05:43:10 -0000 Hi all, Herewith some of my comments: > 1. No pre-provisioned keys. There was some discussion about the case > where there is no pre-provisioned secret on the constrained device. Is > this in the scope of ACE? I had the impression that more people think > that it isn't? That may be difficult. In principle, you need at least something pre-provis= ioned to setup a secure connection, although it may not necessarily be secr= et (e.g. a public key of the trusted 3rd party). I think the pre-provisioning method of the initial cryptographic parameters= can be left out of scope though. Having a scenario without any pre-provisi= oned key should be out of scope. > 2. Offline authorization > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). Does > ACE want to cover the problem that a resource server might need to > process requests without consulting some kind of identity management > server? I think this is a reality. There could be scenarios where the server is too= constrained to contact the trusted 3d party by itself. There could e.g. be= scenarios where such information from the trusted 3rd party is forwarded b= y the client to the server. > 3. Profiling existing authentication, authorization and key management > protocols > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). a) > Is > it in the scope of ACE to profile protocols like Kerberos, OAuth etc. b) > to which of the various steps during authorization (i.e. > device<->identity manager, identity manager<->resource server, ...) do > these profiles/protocols apply? I think we should reuse existing technologies where appropriate, as it is a= lways good to use security mechanisms which already have proven their value= . This may include profiling. So this is in scope. > 4. Security modes for CoAP > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it > in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? >From the security modes draft, I have the impression that it mainly concern= s key management (KMS). Is that impression correct? Concerning the KMS, I think we should certainly investigate existing techno= logies as elaborated upon below comment 3. I think it will be hard to define a working system without paying attention= to the KMS. Best regards, Bert > -----Original Message----- > From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stefanie Gerdes > Sent: 16 January 2014 23:27 > To: ace@ietf.org > Subject: [Ace] Open Issues >=20 > Hi everybody, >=20 > We have a lot of topics and proposed charter changes right now. To > speed > things up a little, I would like to summarize the main open issues. I > hope that will make it easier to find consent about them and helps us > to > decide which topics should be in the scope of ACE. >=20 > Of course it is difficult to decide what the main issues are. I tried > to > filter out topics concerning the comprehensibility at this point. We > can > get back to them later when we the general scope is clear. If I left > out > a very important topic please feel free to state your opinion (and > maybe > explain why you think this is significant for the scope of ACE) >=20 > 1. No pre-provisioned keys. There was some discussion about the case > where there is no pre-provisioned secret on the constrained device. Is > this in the scope of ACE? I had the impression that more people think > that it isn't? >=20 > 2. Offline authorization > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). Does > ACE want to cover the problem that a resource server might need to > process requests without consulting some kind of identity management > server? >=20 > 3. Profiling existing authentication, authorization and key management > protocols > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html). a) > Is > it in the scope of ACE to profile protocols like Kerberos, OAuth etc. b) > to which of the various steps during authorization (i.e. > device<->identity manager, identity manager<->resource server, ...) do > these profiles/protocols apply? >=20 > 4. Security modes for CoAP > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it > in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? >=20 > Please state your opinion on these topics. >=20 > Best regards, > Steffi >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From goran.selander@ericsson.com Fri Jan 17 00:05:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09441ADFB3 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:05:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RdXxL7gj1T0l for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED071ADFAA for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:05:20 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f2c8e000006d25-4a-52d8e433847e Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 46.BA.27941.334E8D25; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:05:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC023.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.87]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:05:07 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Bert Greevenbosch , "ace@ietf.org" , Stefanie Gerdes Thread-Topic: [Ace] Open Issues Thread-Index: AQHPEs90KKLZNSLAWkaCJ/RTtKV6zpqIV4AAgAA4iwA= Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:05:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3DDED6@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3DDED6@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja7xkxtBBs/bVSy+f+thtvj9ZAWr xcaLdxkdmD1ajrxl9Viy5CeTx7a3X5kDmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mm5M38VeMI2rYtbqVewN jGs5uhg5OSQETCR2PDjDBGGLSVy4t56ti5GLQ0jgCKPE3vn/WSCcJYwSjV1HWUCq2ARcJQ48 eAfUwcEhIlAm8XmTL0hYWEBOYuGMjcwgtoiAvMSNWWvZIGwriR/r74DFWQRUJVrnPWYHsXkF LCQ6bzQxgthCArkSM1c/BYtzCoRJLD28A6yeEeig76fWgB3HLCAucevJfKhDBSSW7DnPDGGL Srx8/I8VxBYV0JO492guC0RcSWLt4e0sEL16EjemTmGDsK0lDrXcZ4WwtSWWLXzNDHGPoMTJ mU9YJjCKz0KybhaS9llI2mchaZ+FpH0BI+sqRo7i1OKk3HQjg02MwEg7uOW3xQ7Gy39tDjFK c7AoifN+fOscJCSQnliSmp2aWpBaFF9UmpNafIiRiYNTqoFRev7cTJW3Nl45kaaut1zZk79P WHG1cl+QUVR8Xti7Sz1iDPK1KvqFWxYf9Js3se+bvrjT3++fcm8aTVlc1u//yy9DYlNGu4Zx lQvvqmK5v4LFP1fOZ3tdyLb6l/BpNc8pM63mv77G2HIg+2KXzMXUJTc2hj7wCLyudWJZvkp5 1y7hhnXneXmVWIozEg21mIuKEwEaXgD3ggIAAA== Subject: Re: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:05:22 -0000 Hi Bert On 1/17/14 6:42 AM, "Bert Greevenbosch" wrote: > >> 4. Security modes for CoAP >> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is it >> in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? > >From the security modes draft, I have the impression that it mainly >concerns key management (KMS). Is that impression correct? > >Concerning the KMS, I think we should certainly investigate existing >technologies as elaborated upon below comment 3. > >I think it will be hard to define a working system without paying >attention to the KMS. You are right, this is about key management. CoAP security modes in general deals with what keys/credentials of involved parties that are required to be able to authorize the client to run DTLS. E.g. in certificate mode the client must have a X509 public key certificate and corresponding private key and the server must have a list of root trust anchors that can be used for validating certificates. Since certificate mode is very heavy-weight, we investigate in draft-seitz-core-security-modes more light-weight solutions based on the assumption that there is a secret key shared between an authorization server (acting trust anchor) and a resource server. G=F6ran From ludwig@sics.se Fri Jan 17 00:18:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576681ACCEE for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:18:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GQl_1T6-aaIk for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712D21A1F06 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:18:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0H8AN1O004816 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:18:21 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1h9yc72f91-1 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:18:20 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2433340117 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:18:21 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52D8E74C.5070709@sics.se> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:18:20 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> <52D7FF29.70103@sics.se> <52D80D48.3090805@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52D80D48.3090805@tzi.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060809050307060109050204" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-17_03:2014-01-16,2014-01-17,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401160266 Subject: Re: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:18:38 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060809050307060109050204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/16/2014 05:48 PM, Stefanie Gerdes wrote: > Hi Ludwig, > > On 01/16/2014 04:47 PM, Ludwig Seitz wrote: >> On 01/16/2014 04:27 PM, Stefanie Gerdes wrote: >> >>> 4. Security modes for CoAP >>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is = it >>> in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? >> >> I'm obviously biased here, since it's the title of my draft. My main >> argument for including this is that the security modes are the first >> authorization step. What you do is to authorize the client to establis= h >> a DTLS connection in the first place. >> > > I think it is interesting to think about the various possible solutions= > for authenticating the authorization information such as symmetric and > asymmetric key approaches or even object security. I am not sure, > however, if we need new security modes for CoAP for that. Don't we just= > need to define how we use the existing ones? Well in the introduction of my draft I argue why I don't think the=20 existing security modes are sufficient. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms060809050307060109050204 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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ZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNz IDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlhdGUgQ2xpZW50IENBAgMIkU4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAE ggEATPzvoqyHRIFb733d8Vey3ItTwOH0h08FcokvZk9Q++TqyJymLVEX2UhHSFELMhl7s53b ABI4SUSCYwxpRdmt92iU4bC/qM7t/2e+Ciu6r0ahOV3vI3w4jzq3p7Kld5C0ICPkVfe2/AES NpfQIXoFHGUO0MTPeNGHNTAraCrF6rPF6kCmAMr8VEiN4KBKvYruMuX8Bhjp+UR+fWi4k1ga JYdbw7za56/V0U9sOpvl3Ww0PgAZAcP2GpNXBs/BddJzX6SFf4bV23LYNXIPucZsfod6hSMO H9rm0TYVod79geJiv+taEqYC0l4aOl+fkzJ2LIMy/FgyASGBksULuMTt+QAAAAAAAA== --------------ms060809050307060109050204-- From cabo@tzi.org Fri Jan 17 00:48:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FDF1AD0EA for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:48:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zxux2eTK5cNI for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDDF1ACCFA for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:48:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0H8mgc5006460 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:48:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [172.20.10.3] (ip-109-47-3-18.web.vodafone.de [109.47.3.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE39FDC7; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:48:40 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <52D80D48.3090805@tzi.de> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:48:36 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> <52D7FF29.70103@sics.se> <52D80D48.3090805@tzi.de> To: Stefanie Gerdes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: [Ace] 4. Security modes (Re: Open Issues) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:48:58 -0000 On 16 Jan 2014, at 17:48, Stefanie Gerdes wrote: >>> 4. Security modes for CoAP >>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is = it >>> in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? >>=20 >> I'm obviously biased here, since it's the title of my draft. My main >> argument for including this is that the security modes are the first >> authorization step. What you do is to authorize the client to = establish >> a DTLS connection in the first place. >>=20 >=20 > I think it is interesting to think about the various possible = solutions > for authenticating the authorization information such as symmetric and > asymmetric key approaches or even object security. I am not sure, > however, if we need new security modes for CoAP for that. Don't we = just > need to define how we use the existing ones? I think that=92s mostly a matter of =93semantics=94 (understanding of = terms). Some people read the section 9 about security modes in the CoAP spec and = derive a very literal understanding of what these security modes are. = Some others read them as building blocks. The first group would think = they are defining new security modes when the second group thinks they = are applying the existing security modes in scenarios that are more = complex than those used to explain the modes in the spec. There is, of course, a big difference between NoSec and the other modes. = What the other modes materially differ in is what TLS cipher suite was = used to set up the DTLS connection and what the keying materials used = for setting them up can be used for. The two PK modes (RPK and cert) = also have a key that can be used as an identity of the server (the text = doesn=92t discuss whether you have to use the same kind in both = directions or you have to use a client key at all). Since a device can = have multiple such identities, CoAP suggests using SNI, so a device with = multiple public keys also needs a hostname-like name (or anything that = can be put in a RFC 6066 ServerName). The CoAP modes do not say what = the authorization implication of these keys/identities are or how they = are used in an authorization protocol. draft-seitz-core-security-modes = adds some ways to use them and calls them additional CoAP modes. This = terminology may confuse some who think we are extending TLS with = fundamentally new cipher suites. It may also be more useful to define = the entire authorization protocol instead of just the =93CoAP mode=94 = aspect of it. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From cabo@tzi.org Fri Jan 17 05:56:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD871AE0D1 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 05:56:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0vZol6rMSBjv for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 05:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776ED1AE0CF for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 05:56:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0HDuAZm023510 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 14:56:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (reingewinn.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.123]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 644D0AE; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 14:56:10 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 14:56:12 +0100 To: ace@ietf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Subject: [Ace] Authorization Information Format X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:56:30 -0000 Since there seemed to be some confusion on what an Authorization = Information Format could be, I wrote one up. Not with an intention to = nail one down at this point (that will be some more work), but rather to = illustrate the term Authorization Information Format as it is used in = the proposed charter. Enjoy at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-00 Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com Fri Jan 17 17:22:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E471D1ACCDF for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:22:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1mc0s3TWfZ5r for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E895C1ACC86 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 17:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAB58894; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 01:22:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 01:21:22 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.34) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 01:22:22 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.206]) by SZXEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 09:22:19 +0800 From: Bert Greevenbosch To: Carsten Bormann , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Authorization Information Format Thread-Index: AQHPE4voQAIife2wQEy1gioVd7I7OpqJnkBA Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 01:22:19 +0000 Message-ID: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3DF330@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.162.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] Authorization Information Format X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 01:22:41 -0000 Hi Carsten, Good start of such authorisation information format. I think the format is quite straight forward: for each URI, signal an integ= er which is an OR of 1 (for GET), 2 (for POST), 4 (for PUT) etc.; in genera= l 2^{CoAP method number}. Nice that in CoAP we only reserved 5 bits for the= method number, which allows signalling here in a max 32-bit integer. I like the CBOR encoding. I first thought, that it would be better to encode ["/s/light", 1] as a map= instead of an array. The structure seems quite fit for a map, as you can h= ave the URI as the key, and whatever information (in this case just the all= owed methods, but that may become more) as the value. However, that would a= dd the requirement to add an encapsulating array in the map in case we want= to signal more than just the supported methods. I wonder about the grouping of URIs. Section 2.1 points at RFC 6570 "URI te= mplates", but that may be a bit complex. We could e.g. allow wildcards like= "*" and "?", or if we changed the encoding to map allow an array with mult= iple URIs as the key. Which device classes do you have in mind to parse the authorisation informa= tion? Best regards, Bert > -----Original Message----- > From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann > Sent: 17 January 2014 21:56 > To: ace@ietf.org > Subject: [Ace] Authorization Information Format >=20 > Since there seemed to be some confusion on what an Authorization > Information Format could be, I wrote one up. Not with an intention to > nail one down at this point (that will be some more work), but rather > to illustrate the term Authorization Information Format as it is used > in the proposed charter. >=20 > Enjoy at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-00 >=20 > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From likepeng@huawei.com Fri Jan 17 18:27:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D2C1AD942 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:27:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.538, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PzW9wBzgS5R2 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0811AD791 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAB61336; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 02:27:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 02:26:18 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.33) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 02:27:08 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sat, 18 Jan 2014 10:27:03 +0800 From: Likepeng To: Carsten Bormann , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Authorization Information Format Thread-Index: AQHPE4vpgTT3MbgkW06z04bYsp+JEpqJv8aQ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 02:27:03 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE0589@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] Authorization Information Format X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 02:27:26 -0000 SGkgQ2Fyc3RlbiwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgZHJhZnQuDQoNCkkgYWRkZWQgaXQgaW4gdGhl IGRyYWZ0IGxpc3Q6DQpodHRwOi8vdHJhYy50b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9ib2YvdHJhYy93aWtpL1dp a2lTdGFydCMNCg0KQWxzbyBoZXJlOg0KaHR0cDovL3RyYWMudG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvd2cvY29y ZS90cmFjL3dpa2kvQUNFX2NoYXJ0ZXIjDQoNCktpbmQgUmVnYXJkcw0KS2VwZW5nDQoNCi0tLS0t 6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogQWNlIFttYWlsdG86YWNlLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0 Zi5vcmddIOS7o+ihqCBDYXJzdGVuIEJvcm1hbm4NCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxNOW5tDHmnIgx N+aXpSAyMTo1Ng0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBhY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4u+mimDogW0FjZV0gQXV0aG9y aXphdGlvbiBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBGb3JtYXQNCg0KU2luY2UgdGhlcmUgc2VlbWVkIHRvIGJlIHNv bWUgY29uZnVzaW9uIG9uIHdoYXQgYW4gQXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBGb3JtYXQg Y291bGQgYmUsIEkgd3JvdGUgb25lIHVwLiAgTm90IHdpdGggYW4gaW50ZW50aW9uIHRvIG5haWwg b25lIGRvd24gYXQgdGhpcyBwb2ludCAodGhhdCB3aWxsIGJlIHNvbWUgbW9yZSB3b3JrKSwgYnV0 IHJhdGhlciB0byBpbGx1c3RyYXRlIHRoZSB0ZXJtIEF1dGhvcml6YXRpb24gSW5mb3JtYXRpb24g Rm9ybWF0IGFzIGl0IGlzIHVzZWQgaW4gdGhlIHByb3Bvc2VkIGNoYXJ0ZXIuDQoNCkVuam95IGF0 Og0KaHR0cDovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtYm9ybWFubi1jb3JlLWFjZS1haWYt MDANCg0KR3LDvMOfZSwgQ2Fyc3Rlbg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KQWNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KQWNlQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FjZQ0K From ludwig@sics.se Mon Jan 20 07:09:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C301A0173 for ; 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Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:09:04 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DD3C0F.1030506@sics.se> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:09:03 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> <52D7FF29.70103@sics.se> <52D80D48.3090805@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000801020406020109040000" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-20_01:2014-01-20,2014-01-20,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401200080 Subject: Re: [Ace] 4. Security modes (Re: Open Issues) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:09:11 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000801020406020109040000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/17/2014 09:48 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 16 Jan 2014, at 17:48, Stefanie Gerdes wrote: > >>>> 4. Security modes for CoAP >>>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html). Is= it >>>> in the scope of ACE to define security modes for CoAP? >>> >>> I'm obviously biased here, since it's the title of my draft. My main >>> argument for including this is that the security modes are the first >>> authorization step. What you do is to authorize the client to establi= sh >>> a DTLS connection in the first place. >>> >> >> I think it is interesting to think about the various possible solution= s >> for authenticating the authorization information such as symmetric and= >> asymmetric key approaches or even object security. I am not sure, >> however, if we need new security modes for CoAP for that. Don't we jus= t >> need to define how we use the existing ones? > > I think that=92s mostly a matter of =93semantics=94 (understanding of t= erms). > > Some people read the section 9 about security modes in the CoAP spec an= d > derive a very literal understanding of what these security modes are. > Some others read them as building blocks. The first group would think= > they are defining new security modes when the second group thinks they= > are applying the existing security modes in scenarios that are more > complex than those used to explain the modes in the spec. >[...] draft-seitz-core-security-modes adds some ways to use them and > calls them additional CoAP modes. This terminology may confuse some > who think we are extending TLS with fundamentally new cipher suites. > It may also be more useful to define the entire authorization protocol= > instead of just the =93CoAP mode=94 aspect of it. Carsten, I am fine renaming the draft to something like "usage profile=20 for CoAP security modes" if you think that can help to avoid confusion.=20 The bigger question is: Is this work that people consider useful within=20 ACE (I'm obviously biased here)? I'm also all in favour of defining the entire authorization protocol,=20 but the question is: do we want to cram everything into one draft? The advantage I see with having draft-seitz-core-security-modes separate is that it allows you to implement a very coarse grain access control=20 (at the level of "who can initiate a DTLS connection with this=20 device?"). I suspect this would be enough for a relevant number of=20 applications, that don't need to implement more sophisticated access=20 control. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms000801020406020109040000 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IypNQgcNMY0P for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA0C1A019D for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:49:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0KFn3DO012446 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:49:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.102.218.230] (dynamic-218-c.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 142D4B86 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:49:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:49:02 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:49:12 -0000 Hi everybody, Due to several complaints about the readability of the proposed charter, we revised it and, with the assistance of Hannes, came up with a new proposal which provides some more motivation and background to our work. We hope that this version includes the relevant topics and reflects the previous discussion. Please let us know if something relevant is missing. In six weeks, at the IETF meeting, we should be able to present a readable charter that has wide consensus in the IETF. So this is a good time to check that we agree about the charter within the ACE community. Best regards, Kepeng and Steffi Draft Charter V0.3 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environment (ACE) New developments in the IETF include protocols with a specific focus on energy-efficiency to be used e.g. in environments where network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power-resources. It was observed that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In other cases, new protocols such as the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) have been defined to address the specific requirements of constrained devices and networks. Constrained devices raise authentication and authorization questions. For example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a digital key. Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked? These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained environment, constrained devices cannot readily handle these issues due to resource constraints. CoAP provides a DTLS binding for authentication but does not address authorization. The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve the same goal they offer quite different functions and utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by the main deployment use cases they were designed for. Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an identity management/authorization server in real-time with every access request. This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to resources in constrained environments, using CoAP and leveraging DTLS security where possible. Constrained devices will thus be enabled to authenticate requests for operations from other (constrained or less-constrained) devices, to communicate securely with them and to verify their individual authorization to access specific resources. To achieve this, ACE will be able to employ additional less-constrained devices in order to relieve the constrained nodes from complex security related tasks (e.g. managing authorization policies and a large number of keys). Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability, selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment of IoT devices offering increased security. To be successful this working group requires expertise in security, privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party offering application layer services is always the same party offering network access services. The ACE WG has the following tasks: Document the use cases and high-level requirements for secured communication between constrained devices. Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization. Document the applicability of the main authentication and key exchange protocols with respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, power consumption etc.) and their suitability for the use cases. Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of authorization information suitable for constrained device to constrained device communication. Define formats for access tokens and for authorization information that are suitable for constrained devices. Define bootstrapping for authorization information using the Resource Directory (see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-resource-directory). From ludwig@sics.se Wed Jan 22 04:30:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C6D71A00B1 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 04:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.215 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MANGLED_STOP=2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6UYdUA0gWxd9 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 04:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C95E1A009E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 04:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0MCUcd1010179 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:30:38 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh33257m1-1 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:30:38 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D8A640116 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:30:38 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DFB9EE.1060503@sics.se> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:30:38 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms010303050702050207030508" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-22_04:2014-01-22,2014-01-22,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=1 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401220055 Subject: [Ace] FYI: Other standardization efforts X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:30:43 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010303050702050207030508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.technologyreview.com/news/523531/securing-the-smart-home-from-= toasters-to-toilets/ Most of you have probably already heard the story of the hacked=20 refrigerator, but from an ACE perspective this might be an interesting=20 detail: "In the hopes of minimizing security risks posed by all this growth,=20 Rogers is developing a set of security standards that companies can=20 follow when developing connected products. He declines to get specific=20 about what the Internet of things standards could include, but says he=20 is leaning toward relying on =93the more mature standards for the=20 Internet=94 and is using the Open Web Application Security Project=92s =93= Top=20 10=94 security risks list as a guide, since it details many types of risk= s=20 that could affect all kinds of Internet-connected devices." It might just be marketing, but if they are serious about IoT security=20 standards there might be some commonalities. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms010303050702050207030508 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MANGLED_STOP=2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cI6M6XSRQcDW for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 04:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9F81A009E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 04:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0MCZ3HE013120 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:35:54 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh332589q-1 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:35:54 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F4F640116 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:35:54 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52DFBB29.7000801@sics.se> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:35:53 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52DFB9EE.1060503@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <52DFB9EE.1060503@sics.se> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms080001000005040501080002" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-22_04:2014-01-22,2014-01-22,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401220056 Subject: Re: [Ace] FYI: Other standardization efforts X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:35:59 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080001000005040501080002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/22/2014 01:30 PM, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > http://www.technologyreview.com/news/523531/securing-the-smart-home-fro= m-toasters-to-toilets/ > > > Most of you have probably already heard the story of the hacked > refrigerator, but from an ACE perspective this might be an interesting > detail: > > "In the hopes of minimizing security risks posed by all this growth, > Rogers is developing a set of security standards that companies can > follow when developing connected products. He declines to get specific > about what the Internet of things standards could include, but says he > is leaning toward relying on =93the more mature standards for the > Internet=94 and is using the Open Web Application Security Project=92s = =93Top > 10=94 security risks list as a guide, since it details many types of ri= sks > that could affect all kinds of Internet-connected devices." > > It might just be marketing, but if they are serious about IoT security > standards there might be some commonalities. > > /Ludwig > To be more specific about the possible ACE commonalities: Follow the=20 =93Top 10=94 security risks list link and have a look at "A7 Missing=20 Function Level Access Control". /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms080001000005040501080002 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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4q4kyQFGGUVyfcaWcMuATp4VMGgZjYEnZCLA+NwVRJBZyBYwY5ewGbMTAwAAAAAAAA== --------------ms080001000005040501080002-- From Akbar.Rahman@interdigital.com Wed Jan 22 08:34:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD3B1A0458 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:34:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oaoKt4zzeLBJ for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (smtp-in1.interdigital.com [64.208.228.133]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A681A0445 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:33:57 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1390408435-06daaa105f21b860001-Yzt3Th Received: from smtp-out1.interdigital.com (sahara.interdigital.com [10.0.128.27]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id R2Czxj2fBDYYVl6d for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:33:55 -0500 (EST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by smtp-out1.interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:34:28 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:34:27 -0500 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: Ac8V906Thbu3uaHVQ26JeL6bMjRqNABlymqQ References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "Stefanie Gerdes" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jan 2014 16:34:28.0651 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1E917B0:01CF178F] X-Barracuda-Connect: sahara.interdigital.com[10.0.128.27] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1390408435 X-Barracuda-URL: http://10.1.245.3:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.144364 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:34:01 -0000 Hi Stefanie, This updated version of the ACE charter looks very good. I wanted to get your opinion on a question that came up during some author discussions related to DICE. The question is: - Will ACE cover the transfer of authorization info to a CoAP forward proxy to send unicast/multicast DTLS messages on behalf of a Client? (Reference: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2 ) Best Regards, Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stefanie Gerdes Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 10:49 AM To: ace@ietf.org Subject: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Hi everybody, Due to several complaints about the readability of the proposed charter, we revised it and, with the assistance of Hannes, came up with a new proposal which provides some more motivation and background to our work. We hope that this version includes the relevant topics and reflects the previous discussion. Please let us know if something relevant is missing. In six weeks, at the IETF meeting, we should be able to present a readable charter that has wide consensus in the IETF. So this is a good time to check that we agree about the charter within the ACE community. Best regards, Kepeng and Steffi Draft Charter V0.3 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environment (ACE) New developments in the IETF include protocols with a specific focus on energy-efficiency to be used e.g. in environments where network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power-resources. It was observed that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In other cases, new protocols such as the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) have been defined to address the specific requirements of constrained devices and networks. Constrained devices raise authentication and authorization questions. For example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a digital key. Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked? These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained environment, constrained devices cannot readily handle these issues due to resource constraints. CoAP provides a DTLS binding for authentication but does not address authorization. The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve the same goal they offer quite different functions and utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by the main deployment use cases they were designed for. Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an identity management/authorization server in real-time with every access request. This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to resources in constrained environments, using CoAP and leveraging DTLS security where possible. Constrained devices will thus be enabled to authenticate requests for operations from other (constrained or less-constrained) devices, to communicate securely with them and to verify their individual authorization to access specific resources. To achieve this, ACE will be able to employ additional less-constrained devices in order to relieve the constrained nodes from complex security related tasks (e.g. managing authorization policies and a large number of keys). Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability, selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment of IoT devices offering increased security. To be successful this working group requires expertise in security, privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party offering application layer services is always the same party offering network access services. The ACE WG has the following tasks: Document the use cases and high-level requirements for secured communication between constrained devices. Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization. Document the applicability of the main authentication and key exchange protocols with respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, power consumption etc.) and their suitability for the use cases. Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of authorization information suitable for constrained device to constrained device communication. Define formats for access tokens and for authorization information that are suitable for constrained devices. Define bootstrapping for authorization information using the Resource Directory (see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-resource-directory). _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From likepeng@huawei.com Wed Jan 22 19:21:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E2F1A0220 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:21:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7dvasMHFcofP for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA00A1A01A6 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAI23297; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:21:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:21:10 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.34) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:21:23 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:21:20 +0800 From: Likepeng To: "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfcws6Jb64qr7EyB1+x3u+RdR5qRpsJA Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:21:19 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE21AD@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:21:29 -0000 PlJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBkZXJpdmVkIGZyb20gdXNlIGNhc2VzIGluZGljYXRlIHRoZSBzdWl0YWJp 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ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B751A033F for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 00:49:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqS6TPldAji1 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 00:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-x22a.google.com (mail-vb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c02::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826821A033D for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 00:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f42.google.com with SMTP id i3so884254vbh.1 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 00:48:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=uxNJ9848NxrREX1msK4bR4txm9oqeUvYu/GJXgRGvIg=; b=o447x1fVx7N8OMI4bLxOHshTLqtyI2zvpHpy1GX7VRufjs6FFBms6aWWv/ojwBxQjT xDBcBYLvReJvdb05a7YgohOEDQy9ACxZzyeqy3h95fDqcYapuJ0Yb75YhKRTeZK/F+KT Lq+W5/u9J7qfmSj2/utTRjnX/o4UhL0y4gnz5Q4Lj9G0lNGLllS2ynHd3h7PvHDecga4 AzP5m5NShpgAGmStsYrsb+iogueaudBVbLOWySZjddn7macm1Ffe9HPApEObXiKIQDCS QhH2YlFgdZTDldbGJzz4EKJ8PE/KDqn1q+QE6kD5IYombCPNUQvJ1VCsRUYd3Y08DLuO Q7PQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.109.1 with SMTP id h1mr3878633vcp.20.1390466938611; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 00:48:58 -0800 (PST) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.170.71 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 00:48:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:48:58 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EWxks7A--DObMPa5l-NCEuyLhdE Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: ace@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 08:49:00 -0000 Yesterday, the IESG approved the ACE BoF request for London. Hannes and Kepeng will chair it -- their goal will be to determine the level of interest in pursuing this work and forming a working group to take it on. I'll note that there was some concern about the slow progress of DICE, with some ADs wondering why this will move along better. I think the level of interest we've seen so far is a good answer to that, but keep that in mind as you proceed. If a working group is chartered for this, it might be in the App area, and it might be in the Sec area. The fact that the BoF is sponsored in App doesn't mean anything in particular. Barry, Applications AD From bergmann@tzi.org Thu Jan 23 01:00:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF6B1A02F5 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XHXfjjrYmrfi for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BED1A0282 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:00:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0N90Nhd020375; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:00:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (eduroam-pool7-0971.wlan.uni-bremen.de [134.102.115.203]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D9AB9F03; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:00:23 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Barry Leiba References: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:00:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Barry Leiba's message of "Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:48:58 -0500") Message-ID: <87bnz3hy3h.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:00:31 -0000 Barry, This is really good news. Big thanks especially to Steffi and Hannes, who have worked hard over the weekend to produce a useful and readable draft charter as input for the IESG. Gruesse Olaf From schmitt@ifi.uzh.ch Thu Jan 23 01:03:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E521A0344 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:03:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.187 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.187 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qfP_Kec3vtpW for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C3251A0341 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from authenticated sender schmitt by ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (postfix) with ESMTPSA id SA for <9D64076054>; ace@ietf.org Message-ID: <52E0DAD4.7000507@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:03:16 +0100 From: Corinna Schmitt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030809030604050406020207" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at ladislav X-Virus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:03:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030809030604050406020207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Barry, thanks for the update. Let`s see what happens in London. Special thanks also to Steffi for developing the agenda. Regards, Corinna Am 23.01.14 09:48, schrieb Barry Leiba: > Yesterday, the IESG approved the ACE BoF request for London. Hannes > and Kepeng will chair it -- their goal will be to determine the level > of interest in pursuing this work and forming a working group to take > it on. > > I'll note that there was some concern about the slow progress of DICE, > with some ADs wondering why this will move along better. I think the > level of interest we've seen so far is a good answer to that, but keep > that in mind as you proceed. > > If a working group is chartered for this, it might be in the App area, > and it might be in the Sec area. The fact that the BoF is sponsored > in App doesn't mean anything in particular. > > Barry, Applications AD > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > -- --------------030809030604050406020207 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------070505010308030801040803" --------------070505010308030801040803 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear Barry,

thanks for the update. Let`s see what happens in London.

Special thanks also to Steffi for developing the agenda.

Regards,
Corinna

Am 23.01.14 09:48, schrieb Barry Leiba:
Yesterday, the IESG approved the ACE BoF request for London.  Hannes
and Kepeng will chair it -- their goal will be to determine the level
of interest in pursuing this work and forming a working group to take
it on.

I'll note that there was some concern about the slow progress of DICE,
with some ADs wondering why this will move along better.  I think the
level of interest we've seen so far is a good answer to that, but keep
that in mind as you proceed.

If a working group is chartered for this, it might be in the App area,
and it might be in the Sec area.  The fact that the BoF is sponsored
in App doesn't mean anything in particular.

Barry, Applications AD
_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C7B1A033F for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:16:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.285 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.285 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZI4f1QCZL47D for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183251A033E for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAI50262; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:16:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:15:51 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.42) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:16:06 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA410-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:16:02 +0800 From: Likepeng To: Corinna Schmitt , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) Thread-Index: AQHPGBf9kzaxRtjuQU+xAwDS83cQN5qRfZsAgACHQcA= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:16:01 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE23A9@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52E0DAD4.7000507@ifi.uzh.ch> In-Reply-To: <52E0DAD4.7000507@ifi.uzh.ch> Accept-Language: zh-CN, 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Thanks to = Steffi for the BoF preparation and charter drafting.

 = ;

I will wor= k hard together with Hannes to make the London BoF to be successful.

 = ;

Thank you = all for your interest and contributions.

 = ;

Kind Regar= ds

Kepeng

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Corinna Schmitt
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA1=D4=C223=C8=D5 17:03
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ace@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89)<= /p>

 

Dear Barry,

thanks for the update. Let`s see what happens in London.

Special thanks also to Steffi for developing the agenda.

Regards,
Corinna

Am 23.01.14 09:48, schrieb Barry Leiba:

Yesterday, the IESG approved the ACE BoF request =
for London.  Hannes
and Kepeng will chair it -- their goal will be to=
 determine the level
of interest in pursuing this work and forming a w=
orking group to take
it on.
 
I'll note that there was some concern about the s=
low progress of DICE,
with some ADs wondering why this will move along =
better.  I think the
level of interest we've seen so far is a good ans=
wer to that, but keep
that in mind as you proceed.

 


If a working group is chartered for this, it migh=
t be in the App area,


and it might be in the Sec area.  The fact t=
hat the BoF is sponsored


in App doesn't mean anything in particular.<=
/o:p>


 


Barry, Applications AD


_______________________________________________


Ace mailing list


Ace@ietf.org<=
o:p>


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


 

=  

--

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--_004_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE23A9SZXEMA501MBSchi_-- From goran.selander@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 01:24:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2451A0347 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:24:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dPve3xyVnwQN for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8C51A0248 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:24:06 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-d1-52e0dfb5465f Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D2.1A.04853.5BFD0E25; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:24:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:24:05 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Stefanie Gerdes , Likepeng , "Hannes Tschofenig" Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) Thread-Index: AQHPGBf39VBBp08f+UOniF6LWGncsZqSCYiA Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:24:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7W+w+CDO5/MLD4/q2H2WLjxbuM Fkt33mO12HO4idmBxWPxpv1sHi1H3rJ6LFnyk8lj29uvzAEsUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZD049 ZSt4x1Xx5/J+1gbGqxxdjJwcEgImEju77rND2GISF+6tZ+ti5OIQEjjBKHHh3zpGCGcJo0Tn lMXMIFVsAq4SBx68YwKxRQTKJM4/+ccGYjMLKEqsm9MHFOfgEBawkDh8qwSixFJi6YsmVgjb SOLtoo9gNouAqsTsJZtYQMp5Bcwlps+RAQkLCQRIzFj1nhkkzCkQKDHrniRImBHotO+n1jBB LBKXuPVkPhPEyQISS/acZ4awRSVePv4HNl1UQE/i3qO5LBBxJYkV2y8xQvTqSdyYOoUNZDyz gLXEzKuGEGFtiWULX4ON4RUQlDg58wnLBEaJWUi2zULSPQuhexaS7llIuhcwsq5ilCxOLS7O TTcy0MtNzy3RSy3KTC4uzs/TK07dxAiM14NbfhvtYDy5x/4QozQHi5I473XWmiAhgfTEktTs 1NSC1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjDIvrotu/JP0YHZPukbpjXqLEwdOR/67KtF8tDx+xlv2/3wy 4acCkv64W23RZ236m8uhZV1ss0dv08eUsM+rHOa+Zr65afbjfeGmF9JmBN41srJe/+sE51PJ drsvD8MC3tyQPhs0g7OziWlTXaJ5XJ9O4eyFfb1ReebLVHznTHbXjZPe2VnrqMRSnJFoqMVc VJwIABrF5RilAgAA Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:24:11 -0000 Congratulations and good work on readability! Coming back to the details, there are two versions of the draft on the Wiki. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/wiki/ACE_charter Should we comment on v0.3 only, or are these two versions waiting to be merged? There are some comments made on previous versions of the draft which are still valid in v0.2 and v0.3, and left unanswered. Do you intend to come back to that or do you want a reminder? :-) G=F6ran On 23/01/14 09:48, "Barry Leiba" wrote: >Yesterday, the IESG approved the ACE BoF request for London. Hannes >and Kepeng will chair it -- their goal will be to determine the level >of interest in pursuing this work and forming a working group to take >it on. > >I'll note that there was some concern about the slow progress of DICE, >with some ADs wondering why this will move along better. I think the >level of interest we've seen so far is a good answer to that, but keep >that in mind as you proceed. > >If a working group is chartered for this, it might be in the App area, >and it might be in the Sec area. The fact that the BoF is sponsored >in App doesn't mean anything in particular. > >Barry, Applications AD >_______________________________________________ >Ace mailing list >Ace@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From ludwig@sics.se Thu Jan 23 01:44:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566491A037C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:44:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6jqTgznmqQF for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0793F1A03B8 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0N9e0Oh030359 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:44:46 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh3327j3n-1 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:44:46 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 00FF440117 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:44:45 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E0E48D.9090802@sics.se> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:44:45 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070707040604000802040900" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-22_08:2014-01-22,2014-01-22,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401230019 Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:44:52 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070707040604000802040900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's good news! Thanks to Steffi and Kepeng for all the preparation work. See you in Lond= on. H=E4lsningar, Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms070707040604000802040900 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 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SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:52:28 +0800 From: Likepeng To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "Stefanie Gerdes" , Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) Thread-Index: AQHPGBf9kzaxRtjuQU+xAwDS83cQN5qRg2sAgACKBkA= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:52:28 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE246D@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:53:03 -0000 PiBodHRwOi8vdHJhYy50b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy93Zy9jb3JlL3RyYWMvd2lraS9BQ0VfY2hhcnRl cg0KPiANCj4gU2hvdWxkIHdlIGNvbW1lbnQgb24gdjAuMyBvbmx5LCBvciBhcmUgdGhlc2UgdHdv IHZlcnNpb25zIHdhaXRpbmcgdG8gYmUNCj4gbWVyZ2VkPw0KDQpQbGVhc2UgY29tbWVudCBvbiB2 MC4zIG9ubHkuIFYwLjIgaXMganVzdCBmb3IgbG9nZ2luZyBhbmQgcmVmZXJlbmNlLg0KDQpXZSBo YXZlIGFscmVhZHkgbWVyZ2VkIHNvbWUgcG9pbnRzLiBGb3IgdGhlIG90aGVyIHBvaW50cywgd2Ug dGhpbmsgdGhleSBhcmUgZWl0aGVyIGNvdmVyZWQgYnkgdGhlIG5ldyB0ZXh0cyBvciByZW1vdmVk IGZvciByZWFkYWJpbGl0eSByZWFzb24uIA0KDQpCdXQgcGxlYXNlIHJhaXNlIGFueSBpc3N1ZXMg YWJvdXQgdGhlIG5ldyB0ZXh0cy4NCg0KPiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgc29tZSBjb21tZW50cyBtYWRlIG9u IHByZXZpb3VzIHZlcnNpb25zIG9mIHRoZSBkcmFmdCB3aGljaCBhcmUNCj4gc3RpbGwgdmFsaWQg aW4gdjAuMiBhbmQgdjAuMywgYW5kIGxlZnQgdW5hbnN3ZXJlZC4NCg0KV2UgdHJpZWQgb3VyIGJl c3QgdG8gaW5jb3Jwb3JhdGUgdGhlIHJlY2VpdmVkIGZlZWRiYWNrIGZyb20gdGhlIG1haWxpbmcg 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(8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0N9ruEs007253; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:53:56 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <201401230953.s0N9ruEs007253@informatik.uni-bremen.de> Received: from [2.200.206.55] (ip-2-200-206-55.web.vodafone.de [2.200.206.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5BAF5FAE; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:53:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:53:43 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Likepeng , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:54:14 -0000 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A211A0373 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:22:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1fvfvZ-LyXah for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408051A03CB for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:22:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0NAMA1x006036; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:22:10 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <201401231022.s0NAMA1x006036@informatik.uni-bremen.de> Received: from [2.200.206.55] (ip-2-200-206-55.web.vodafone.de [2.200.206.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D4682B; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:22:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:21:58 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes To: Barry Leiba MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:22:23 -0000 SGksCgp0aGlzIGlzIGdvb2QgbmV3cywgdGhhbmsgeW91LCBCYXJyeS4gQ29uZ3JhdHVsYXRpb25z 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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S4FBd_V209M8 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4096C1A0385 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BCV64049; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:59:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:58:46 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.35) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:59:01 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 18:58:53 +0800 From: Likepeng To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "Stefanie Gerdes" , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Charter Update Thread-Index: AQHPEQOJoLZZVMLmu0mdHgyBfloywpqDrUeAgA51YYA= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:58:53 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577SZXEMA501MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: Bert Greevenbosch , Ludwig Seitz Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:59:29 -0000 --_000_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577SZXEMA501MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgR29yYW4sDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIGZlZWRiYWNrLiBUaGV5IGFyZSB2ZXJ5IHVzZWZ1 bC4gUGxlYXNlIHNlZSBteSByZXNwb25zZXMuDQoNCj5JIGNhbid0IHNlZSB0aGF0IHRoaXMgcHJv cGVydHkgb2YgY29uc3RyYWluZWQgZGV2aWNlcyB0aGF0IHlvdSBzaW5nbGUgb3V0DQo+KGxpbWl0 ZWQgdXNlciBpbnRlcmZhY2UpIGlzIHNwZWNpZmljYWxseSByZWxldmFudCB0byB0aGUgd29yayBw cm9wb3NlZCBmb3IgQUNFLg0KPkhvdyBhYm91dCBpbnN0ZWFkIG1lbnRpb25pbmcgcHJvcGVydGll cyBsaWtlIGxpbWl0ZWQgcHJvY2Vzc2luZyBhbmQgcG93ZXINCj5jYXBhYmlsaXRpZXMgb3IganVz 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--_000_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577SZXEMA501MBSchi_-- From goran.selander@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 03:03:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675B11A0453 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:03:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.939 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.939 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WKb4A3IHBMtz for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C08901A0451 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:03:46 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x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CF06B53C694Egoranselanderericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrJIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja7g9wdBBj03WS2+f+thtvj9ZAWr xcaLdxkt9hxuYrZ41XqH2YHVo+XIW1aPJUt+Mnn0HvvN5rHt7VfmAJYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsE rozflycyFfQtYqt42H+PqYFxbS9bFyMnh4SAicT3h3uZIWwxiQv31gPFuTiEBE4wSqyespgd wlnCKHFjQwMLSBWbgIvEg4ZHTCC2iECKREfbRkYQm1kgVOJj60ywuLCAtETPqo1ANgdQjYzE sn4riHIniSU3e9lBbBYBVYmXTyaA2bwC5hIzL59nhti1gFFi5YwvYLs4BcIkXr5dD3YpI9B1 30+tYYLYJS5x68l8JoirBSSW7DkP9YGoxMvH/1hBbFEBPYl7j+ayQMSVJFZsvwR1Z4zEiZZz UIsFJU7OfMIygVFsFpKxs5CUzUJSNgvoHWYBTYn1u/QhShQlpnQ/ZIewNSRa58yFsq0ljk7f xoKsZgEjxypGyeLU4uLcdCMDvdz03BK91KLM5OLi/Dy94tRNjMDoPrjlt9EOxpN77A8xSnOw KInzXmetCRISSE8sSc1OTS1ILYovKs1JLT7EyMTBKdXAqDs/cLVL03EljUmf2uSry18+kVb6 +89I87+eBdfmELOl/9tkTc9670k2eHLu7ZeNnZGVd8tkBP6cl+eJlV23qdHznVzQ0YbH5lky +zezTtwcsNMsMG39xe+/Ch8F/dBulp9zbNf9NxdfrTmnlrpXleeJw6PLiqUZnXPPvjiq4pHb bmMY1baeX4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRAEFlKAi8AgAA Cc: Bert Greevenbosch , Ludwig Seitz Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:03:52 -0000 --_000_CF06B53C694Egoranselanderericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgS2VwZW5nLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIGxvb2tpbmcgYmFjayBhdCB0aGUgY29tbWVudHMgbWFk ZS4gTWVhbndoaWxlIEnigJl2ZSBiZWVuIHB1dHRpbmcgdGhlIHN0aWxsIHJlbGV2YW50IGNvbW1l bnRzIGluIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0IHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IGRyYWZ0IGNoYXJ0ZXIgc28gd2UgaGF2ZSBk b25lIHNvbWUgZG91YmxlIHdvcmsgaGVyZS4gSeKAmWxsIHBvc3QgdGhhdCBzb29uLg0KDQpHw7Zy YW4NCg0KRnJvbTogTGlrZXBlbmcgPGxpa2VwZW5nQGh1YXdlaS5jb208bWFpbHRvOmxpa2VwZW5n QGh1YXdlaS5jb20+Pg0KRGF0ZTogVGh1cnNkYXkgMjMgSmFudWFyeSAyMDE0IDExOjU4DQpUbzog 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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mrlGWXWWaWo for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:05:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF691A03E6 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAI61454; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:05:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:05:24 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA409-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.41) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:05:28 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA409-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 19:05:25 +0800 From: Likepeng To: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Open Issues Thread-Index: AQHPEs93yt7Vqcp/+EOd73+nrVhaLJqSHoNg Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:05:24 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE25AD@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52D7FA4C.701@tzi.de> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] Open Issues X-BeenThere: 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IGFwcGx5Pw0KPiANCj4gNC4gU2VjdXJpdHkgbW9kZXMgZm9yIENvQVANCj4gKGh0dHA6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbC1hcmNoaXZlL3dlYi9hY2UvY3VycmVudC9tc2cwMDEwNC5odG1sKS4gSXMg aXQgaW4NCj4gdGhlIHNjb3BlIG9mIEFDRSB0byBkZWZpbmUgc2VjdXJpdHkgbW9kZXMgZm9yIENv QVA/DQo+IA0KPiBQbGVhc2Ugc3RhdGUgeW91ciBvcGluaW9uIG9uIHRoZXNlIHRvcGljcy4NCj4g DQo+IEJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCj4gU3RlZmZpDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBBY2UgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEFjZUBpZXRm Lm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FjZQ0K From bergmann@tzi.org Thu Jan 23 03:21:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A3C1A03E6 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:21:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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From: Olaf Bergmann To: Likepeng References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:21:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> (likepeng@huawei.com's message of "Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:58:53 +0000") Message-ID: <87ob33gcza.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , Ludwig Seitz , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:21:58 -0000 Likepeng writes: > Hi Goran, [...] >>"Optimize existing and design new security modes for CoAP, e.g. > profiles=A0 > >>for X.509 certificates used in the CoAP/DTLS certificate security > mode" > > =A0 > > This is one of the open issues that sent out by Stefanie. Keep it open > for now. To my understanding, both, v0.2 and v0.3, cover this already ("Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization."). I do not see why X.509 is special here. During the core meeting in Vancouver, this topic has been discussed a lot, and there was at least some consent to address "the low hanging fruit", including X.509 profiling hence I suppose there will be no doubt that the cited task description includes the question on how X.509 certificates should be used. Gruesse Olaf From goran.selander@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 03:23:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8941E1A03E6 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:23:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggQNYwTsbP7p for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094CC1A039D for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:23:17 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-a0-52e0fba4936d Received: from ESESSHC017.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AD.11.10875.4ABF0E25; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:23:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC017.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.69]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:23:15 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfepatuQ7tby5kajZevRfLrVVJqSLxMA Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:23:16 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6S3w+CDE6+1LP4/q2H2YHRY8mS n0wBjFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGTPOuRY8tqmY1f6XqYHxmlEXIyeHhICJxLT1B1ggbDGJC/fW s3UxcnEICRxilPjxYS4LhLOEUWLG+zlsIFVsAq4SBx68Y+pi5OAQEVCUuP4oESQsLGAkse7I ZqiwscTeScwgYRGg8M11e8E6WQRUJd6u6gGL8wqYS7zeto0VxOYUUJN4fWUWWJwR6Ibvp9Yw gdjMAuISt57MZ4K4TUBiyZ7zzBC2qMTLx//AekUF9CTuPZoLdb+SROOSJ6wQvXoSN6ZOYYOw rSWmn5jKDGFrSyxb+BrqBkGJkzOfsExgFJuFZN0sJO2zkLTPQtI+C0n7AkbWVYzsuYmZOenl hpsYgTFycMtv3R2Mp86JHGKU5mBREuf98NY5SEggPbEkNTs1tSC1KL6oNCe1+BAjEwenVAOj nnTaQfMFNTMd/G0+c9Q3+rd0vcvtSotZt3H+qz1mf2sL6jZp3LISeT7jIt/ynEkZz152miy6 rrFU51Zt1xrPiOsNPzZ73HkaduGGm3/Imsuc+uwJ6rdt+C5Z3TIX5njXdSdy7nWpY9e0NLtP 8Pg6xnQvXHatgdnIV8L+VI9O3+2bPEHCUnZKLMUZiYZazEXFiQANrj7gXwIAAA== Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:23:21 -0000 I think the charter in its current version is setting the stage very well and provides a good motivation for the work needed. Some further comments inline. Some comments are partially answered by Kepeng in a recent email. (Thanks for considering some of my previous comments!) On 20/01/14 16:49, "Stefanie Gerdes" wrote: >Hi everybody, > >Due to several complaints about the readability of the proposed charter, >we revised it and, with the assistance of Hannes, came up with a new >proposal which provides some more motivation and background to our work. > >We hope that this version includes the relevant topics and reflects the >previous discussion. Please let us know if something relevant is missing. > >In six weeks, at the IETF meeting, we should be able to present a >readable charter that has wide consensus in the IETF. So this is a good >time to check that we agree about the charter within the ACE community. > >Best regards, >Kepeng and Steffi > >Draft Charter V0.3 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained >Environment (ACE) > >New developments in the IETF include protocols with a specific focus on >energy-efficiency to be used e.g. in environments where network nodes >are limited in CPU, memory, and power-resources. It was observed that >Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained environments, >often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In other cases, new >protocols such as the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) have been >defined to address the specific requirements of constrained devices and >networks. > >Constrained devices raise authentication and authorization questions. >For example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access >using a digital key. Where are the authorization decisions stored? How >does the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact >with an authorization server to obtain authorization information? How >can access be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be >revoked?=20 1. Yes this is good, and I think the issues around authorisation lifetime or revocation deserves should also be listed in the tasks below >These types of questions have been answered by existing >protocols for use cases outside the constrained environment. But in >constrained environment, constrained devices cannot readily handle these >issues due to resource constraints. 2. The weighing of different resource constraints against each other is a task for this work, see 3. below. >CoAP provides a DTLS binding for >authentication but does not address authorization. > > The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication >and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples >include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the >Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and >the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy >widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve >the same goal they offer quite different functions and utilize different >message exchanges. These differences are motivated by the main >deployment use cases they were designed for. > >Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already >existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained >environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for >constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken >into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the >consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an >identity management/authorization server in real-time with every access >request. > >This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for >authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to >resources in constrained environments, using CoAP and leveraging DTLS >security where possible. Constrained devices will thus be enabled to >authenticate requests for operations from other (constrained or >less-constrained) devices, to communicate securely with them and to >verify their individual authorization to access specific resources. To >achieve this, ACE will be able to employ additional less-constrained >devices in order to relieve the constrained nodes from complex security >related tasks (e.g. managing authorization policies and a large number >of keys). > >Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and >re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This >requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability, >selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the >specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in >existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be >standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group >benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and >deployment experience. 3. Here I=B9m missing the step that we need to agree on and specify design constraints when profiling existing protocols or designing new. There are trade-offs to make e.g. in terms of either doing crypto on a constrained device or instead communicating with supporting less-constrained device. >Moreover, a standardized solution for federated >authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment >of IoT devices offering increased security. > >To be successful this working group requires expertise in security, >privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained >environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party >offering application layer services is always the same party offering >network access services. > >The ACE WG has the following tasks: > > Document the use cases and high-level requirements for secured >communication between constrained devices. > > Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization. 4. This has been discussed before, e.g. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html - The term =B3authenticated authorization=B2 is not defined or referenced. - It sounds like it excludes things like Bearer Tokens (which may be OK, but that has not been discussed at all). - I=B9m fine with including this particular optimisation of DTLS handshake, but would like to get acknowledged that other work on optimisations of DTLS handshake in this context is also in scope, such as trusted third party assisted key management (e.g. draft-seitz-core-security-modes). Any work in this space is of course is conditional on what design constraints are relevant for this work. > > Document the applicability of the main authentication and key exchange >protocols with respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, >power consumption etc.) and their suitability for the use cases. 5. Referring to 3. above, it is in this context I see the need to specify design constraints, to be able to make a comparison and to decide what to standardise. G=F6ran > > Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of >authorization information suitable for constrained device to constrained >device communication. > > Define formats for access tokens and for authorization information that >are suitable for constrained devices. > > Define bootstrapping for authorization information using the Resource >Directory (see >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-resource-directory). > >_______________________________________________ >Ace mailing list >Ace@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From goran.selander@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 03:28:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AAB31A0425 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:28:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.939 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.939 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m05qIcQSYb88 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457DC1A034E for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:28:28 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-cc-52e0fcdad4ff Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 49.F1.04853.ADCF0E25; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:28:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC006.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.36]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:28:26 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= To: Likepeng , Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Charter Update Thread-Index: AQHPEQODYpam4LbFJUioLZLuB/tCYZqEM2aAgA3uBICAABkDAA== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:28:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CF06BA3E6983goranselanderericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrOIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7tPw+CDF7MZbb4/q2H2eL3kxWs Fhsv3mW02HO4idniVesdZgdWj5Yjb1k9liz5yeTRe+w3m8e2t1+ZA1iiuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0S uDJedv9iLNhnVHH2wib2BsZGwy5GTg4JAROJd3v2sUHYYhIX7q0Hsrk4hAROMEp0H9vHDOEs YZToe7qdFaSKTcBF4kHDIyYQW0QgRaKjbSMjiM0sECrxsXUmWFxYQFqiZ9VGIJsDqEZGYlm/ 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sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F2D1A03DF for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:40:45 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7fab8e00000490b-94-52e0ffbb39ed Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id CD.31.18699.BBFF0E25; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:40:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC022.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.84]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:40:43 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Olaf Bergmann , Likepeng Thread-Topic: [Ace] Charter Update Thread-Index: AQHPGC1OUVIkrkpysECVBvrXiblxNJqSL4kA Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:40:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87ob33gcza.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <87ob33gcza.fsf@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprCIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6e/w+CDJ495bL4/q2H2aJpcSOT xe8nK1gtNl68y2ix53ATs8Wr1jvMDmweLUfesnosWfKTyaP32G82j21vvzJ7TFuUGcAaxWWT kpqTWZZapG+XwJXxZU4DS8E9rormU/fZGxhPcHQxcnJICJhIvHsygwnCFpO4cG89WxcjF4eQ wBFGiRt/n7NAOEsYJVrOTGcHqWITcJU48OAdWIeIgIvE1av/WUGKmAWmM0pceXyKDSQhLKAo sXf6U6AGDqAiJYl/O1gg6o0k+tYfAetlEVCVOHXoLzOIzStgLrF80RmwViGB3YwSJ++AXccJ VPNq73WwvYxA130/tQasl1lAXOLWk/lQVwtILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfK4gtKqAnce/RXBaIuJLE iu2XGCF69SRuTJ3CBmFbS3zbsY4dwtaWWLbwNdQ9ghInZz5hmcAoMQvJullI2mchaZ+FpH0W kvYFjKyrGDmKU4uTctONDDYxAmP24JbfFjsYL/+1OcQozcGiJM778a1zkJBAemJJanZqakFq UXxRaU5q8SFGJg5OqQZG78pOd3Wf1SfnJvx759e4SDonzOnUL9OSH5bB8yMrnd9mpWzx/dNp nZp/8dQp2eefn0xdKX1/u/t9Q/bp0W/mLDGwD2BZFanxWcqPszNjzYeKffJcL+9/6V2VWXhJ +W9S1tpXqjsmJ8zmXf5kw97s5hbdy1kcjh4VW3gtQmS/NDqyrBZtfhWjxFKckWioxVxUnAgA meI24acCAAA= Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , Ludwig Seitz , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 11:40:47 -0000 Hi Olaf On 23/01/14 12:21, "Olaf Bergmann" wrote: >Likepeng writes: > >> Hi Goran, > >[...] > >>>"Optimize existing and design new security modes for CoAP, e.g. >> profiles=20 >> >>>for X.509 certificates used in the CoAP/DTLS certificate security >> mode" >> >> =20 >> >> This is one of the open issues that sent out by Stefanie. Keep it open >> for now. > >To my understanding, both, v0.2 and v0.3, cover this already ("Define >profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization."). I do >not see why X.509 is special here. > >During the core meeting in Vancouver, this topic has been discussed a >lot, and there was at least some consent to address "the low hanging >fruit", including X.509 profiling hence I suppose there will be no doubt >that the cited task description includes the question on how X.509 >certificates should be used. OK, thanks. The point I was trying to make is not about X.509 certificates, but that the charter v0.3 makes one single statement about making the DTLS handshake lighter: "Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorisation." I find that a well founded but still special case. And item 4 on the list of open issues is another. I would like to understand why item 4 would not be in scope if this is. G=F6ran From Akbar.Rahman@interdigital.com Thu Jan 23 04:10:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFF51A03E6 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:10:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xZERU4Lcdw-2 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (smtp-in1.interdigital.com [64.208.228.133]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F3B1A037B for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:10:09 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1390479007-06daaa105f228450001-Yzt3Th Received: from smtp-out1.interdigital.com (sahara.interdigital.com [10.0.128.27]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id CnEU40Tq7vcpGuu7 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:10:07 -0500 (EST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by smtp-out1.interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:10:40 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:10:28 -0500 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: Ac8V906Thbu3uaHVQ26JeL6bMjRqNABlymqQACldAmA= References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "Stefanie Gerdes" , "Likepeng" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2014 12:10:40.0613 (UTC) FILETIME=[2213E950:01CF1834] X-Barracuda-Connect: sahara.interdigital.com[10.0.128.27] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1390479007 X-Barracuda-URL: http://10.1.245.3:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.144393 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:10:14 -0000 Hi Stefanie/Likepeng, I didn't see the answer to my question, so I am just resending it. Thanks, Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rahman, Akbar Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:34 AM To: Stefanie Gerdes Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Hi Stefanie, This updated version of the ACE charter looks very good. I wanted to get your opinion on a question that came up during some author discussions related to DICE. The question is: - Will ACE cover the transfer of authorization info to a CoAP forward proxy to send unicast/multicast DTLS messages on behalf of a Client? (Reference: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2 ) Best Regards, Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stefanie Gerdes Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 10:49 AM To: ace@ietf.org Subject: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Hi everybody, Due to several complaints about the readability of the proposed charter, we revised it and, with the assistance of Hannes, came up with a new proposal which provides some more motivation and background to our work. We hope that this version includes the relevant topics and reflects the previous discussion. Please let us know if something relevant is missing. In six weeks, at the IETF meeting, we should be able to present a readable charter that has wide consensus in the IETF. So this is a good time to check that we agree about the charter within the ACE community. Best regards, Kepeng and Steffi Draft Charter V0.3 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environment (ACE) New developments in the IETF include protocols with a specific focus on energy-efficiency to be used e.g. in environments where network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power-resources. It was observed that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In other cases, new protocols such as the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) have been defined to address the specific requirements of constrained devices and networks. Constrained devices raise authentication and authorization questions. For example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a digital key. Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked? These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained environment, constrained devices cannot readily handle these issues due to resource constraints. CoAP provides a DTLS binding for authentication but does not address authorization. The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve the same goal they offer quite different functions and utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by the main deployment use cases they were designed for. Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an identity management/authorization server in real-time with every access request. This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to resources in constrained environments, using CoAP and leveraging DTLS security where possible. Constrained devices will thus be enabled to authenticate requests for operations from other (constrained or less-constrained) devices, to communicate securely with them and to verify their individual authorization to access specific resources. To achieve this, ACE will be able to employ additional less-constrained devices in order to relieve the constrained nodes from complex security related tasks (e.g. managing authorization policies and a large number of keys). Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability, selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment of IoT devices offering increased security. To be successful this working group requires expertise in security, privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party offering application layer services is always the same party offering network access services. The ACE WG has the following tasks: Document the use cases and high-level requirements for secured communication between constrained devices. Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization. Document the applicability of the main authentication and key exchange protocols with respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, power consumption etc.) and their suitability for the use cases. Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of authorization information suitable for constrained device to constrained device communication. Define formats for access tokens and for authorization information that are suitable for constrained devices. Define bootstrapping for authorization information using the Resource Directory (see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-resource-directory). _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Thu Jan 23 04:16:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8021A037B for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:16:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D16NbqBSlB48 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6F801A005B for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs41.server.lan ([172.19.170.93]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx002) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0M6PTB-1VMbbk0NQp-00yQTy for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:16:03 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs41.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Jan 23 13:16:03 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Barry Leiba" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:16:03 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:fme+eQkmYgwyUt1FYidfUpB6Z5r/RNoP5ToDONrGOKq K/YQEx3J04Y/nncOs+fg+6Er9YiwR2FrF6NIFalsthqRDitZ72 EqZNkGx7rfuSigZjOrLCjyGxaiKAolOEoprjf3y/xx5UujTvro dBjAW1o7Ha6YvNNPVXOA8/odkwA458W4s7pyvHs8vdxN6iOi7f aw6xPwElflwRPa+msSf3pG0yvUjU4blVDN5EmTY4fJWGsMCjqM uI1gPbSl/Sm0HyKmNTBHVKH4qZ6mFoPITB9UJZFAkNhPnYK71Z xRCyaE= Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:16:06 -0000 Hi Barry,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 thanks for your support during the BOF call and for your confidence in our= work.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 While we now have the BOF approved there is still a lot of work ahead of u= s. In addition to the open issues Steffie distributed in a recent mail, the= re are various other aspects to take into account for having a successful B= OF, as described in RFC=C2=A05434. =C2=A0 Ciao Hannes =C2=A0 Gesendet:=C2=A0Donnerstag, 23. Januar 2014 um 08:48 Uhr Von:=C2=A0"Barry Leiba" An:=C2=A0ace@ietf.org Betreff:=C2=A0[Ace] ACE BoF approved for London (IETF 89) Yesterday, the IESG approved the ACE BoF request for London. Hannes and Kepeng will chair it -- their goal will be to determine the level of interest in pursuing this work and forming a working group to take it on. I'll note that there was some concern about the slow progress of DICE, with some ADs wondering why this will move along better. I think the level of interest we've seen so far is a good answer to that, but keep that in mind as you proceed. If a working group is chartered for this, it might be in the App area, and it might be in the Sec area. The fact that the BoF is sponsored in App doesn't mean anything in particular. Barry, Applications AD _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From bergmann@tzi.org Thu Jan 23 04:22:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 613481A02C2 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:22:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iX4M5rb6AVjM for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926EF1A00B9 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:22:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0NCM0LI001521; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:22:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (eduroam-pool7-0971.wlan.uni-bremen.de [134.102.115.203]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC7CC189; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:21:59 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: "Rahman\, Akbar" References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:21:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Akbar Rahman's message of "Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:10:28 -0500") Message-ID: <87ha8uhorc.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Likepeng , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:22:19 -0000 "Rahman, Akbar" writes: > - Will ACE cover the transfer of authorization info to a CoAP forward > proxy to send unicast/multicast DTLS messages on behalf of a Client? > > (Reference: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2 ) The current discussions did not address this issue, and I think that this will not be a hot topic in the starting phase of a to-be-WG. But I agree that this kind of authorization transfer should be taken into consideration for solution design in the current drafts. Do you have a description of a usage scenario that could be incorporated with the use cases draft? Gruesse Olaf From ludwig@sics.se Thu Jan 23 04:36:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEEC1A0439 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:36:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QaikinpRoQIb for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA751A043A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 04:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0NCVIvj026856 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:36:22 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh3327pqw-1 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:36:22 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9110440118 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:36:22 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E10CC6.30407@sics.se> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:36:22 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> <87ha8uhorc.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <87ha8uhorc.fsf@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020701000507090602070804" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-23_04:2014-01-22,2014-01-23,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401230047 Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:36:28 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020701000507090602070804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/23/2014 01:21 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > "Rahman, Akbar" writes: > >> - Will ACE cover the transfer of authorization info to a CoAP forward >> proxy to send unicast/multicast DTLS messages on behalf of a Client? >> >> (Reference: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2 ) > > The current discussions did not address this issue, and I think that > this will not be a hot topic in the starting phase of a to-be-WG. > > But I agree that this kind of authorization transfer should be taken > into consideration for solution design in the current drafts. Do you > have a description of a usage scenario that could be incorporated with > the use cases draft? > Proxies are already mentioned in the use cases draft (section 2.5.1 and=20 requirement U5.3). Rahman, do you think that should be more specific? If so I'm happy to hear your suggestions. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms020701000507090602070804 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 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IDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlhdGUgQ2xpZW50IENBAgMIkU4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAE ggEAXIu2uXKA43/f79UdOZ8QuPumYBgdultYkqJ/tlxbSoHob7nwBVm7sVg4GwVOZZBhofaP xB+F4kdbkFQu8lJPdscMoy3JRK8s7QQGvwFCF3ZhnawjIAn3OPFSeHMbZxSt2RM6yPAUg+BP TZfiM9ngQc33LqpRVNiAA6090YgW8O7rlX/VzHZ5zSDpdBT/kxIuQ3wiJn0yY/bjfHK2yDzI ZsjASNwZ9aIUhx4+2wUSv2RBJdC4vH5pczz8l+39+Ha71lzzfNL2BJNRPp3IcOdGuAX9zbLD dffq3oMZabOy3XeXThAKa1fdhHNYEZOXhaMJXPYuspPlpoNMv8W0UmVMSQAAAAAAAA== --------------ms020701000507090602070804-- From bergmann@tzi.org Thu Jan 23 06:30:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C941A00DF for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:30:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8L_vGvN1TsQz for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3171A00CA for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 06:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0NEUUUP012583; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:30:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-h.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.207]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96A562CB; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:30:30 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87ob33gcza.fsf@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:30:30 +0100 Message-ID: <877g9qg48p.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , Ludwig Seitz , Likepeng , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:30:44 -0000 G=F6ran Selander writes: > > OK, thanks. The point I was trying to make is not about X.509 > certificates, but that the charter v0.3 makes one single statement about > making the DTLS handshake lighter: I'd be very careful saying "making theDTLS handshake lighter" because most people who read that will think of changing the DTLS handshake protocol. This is not what you propose here, I guess. > "Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorisation." > I find that a well founded but still special case. And item 4 on the list > of open issues is another. I would like to understand why item 4 would not > be in scope if this is. I don't say that item 4 is out of scope. In fact, I think it is not only in scope but it is already covered by the existing charter proposal. Gruesse Olaf From goran.selander@ericsson.com Thu Jan 23 07:13:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A576C1A001A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:13:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EcE2qdkk34q3 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8111A000E for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:13:08 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-78-52e13183c39f Received: from ESESSHC010.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 81.F3.23809.38131E25; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:13:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC010.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.48]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:13:06 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Olaf Bergmann Thread-Topic: [Ace] Charter Update Thread-Index: AQHPGC1OUVIkrkpysECVBvrXiblxNJqSL4kAgAAveemAAAvKAA== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:13:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE2577@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87ob33gcza.fsf@tzi.org> <877g9qg48p.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <877g9qg48p.fsf@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <92AF4F68AF90D14EA1DA58255A1912A7@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprCIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6z4cMggwPPhC2+f+thtmha3Mhk 8fvJClaLjRfvMlrsOdzEbPGq9Q6zA5tHy5G3rB5Llvxk8ug99pvNY9vbr8we0xZlBrBGcdmk pOZklqUW6dslcGW8mHaFteA+b8Wb2/9YGhh7ubsYOTkkBEwkDl7cygphi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI 4BCjxMM9O5khnCWMEmu/bQerYhNwlTjw4B0TiC0ioCKxofsZE0gRs8B2RonprTNZQBLCAooS e6c/Ze9i5AAqUpL4t4MFot5JomHfFTCbRUBV4s/Jg2BzeAXMJRa3fGaCWNbEJLHl516wBCdQ 0fEzvxhBbEag876fWgMWZxYQl7j1ZD4TxNkCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+B3aoqICexL1Hc1kg4koS jUuesEL06kncmDqFDcK2lpjx5T47hK0tsWzha2aIgwQlTs58wjKBUWIWknWzkLTPQtI+C0n7 LCTtCxhZVzGy5yZm5qSXG21iBMbswS2/VXcw3jkncohRmoNFSZz3w1vnICGB9MSS1OzU1ILU ovii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2MPju3/V3U139t1xWxKbWCPll+MTwft829+Sf266kfQkv31N7yDPP5 cISn4Qvjr7j3/o/LuNqszaW35ehUlWfOej7ph0fnDn2h6bdkL/lVNe08cuhn1rWXfqd9H9R0 yOsv3TA1Okm3fGJD1yLeXVPzrro35SXKcJlIXJOYfeuG6LoT7XfyDy3nUWIpzkg01GIuKk4E APmaIPSnAgAA Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , Ludwig Seitz , Likepeng , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 15:13:17 -0000 On 23/01/14 15:30, "Olaf Bergmann" wrote: >G=F6ran Selander writes: > >> >> OK, thanks. The point I was trying to make is not about X.509 >> certificates, but that the charter v0.3 makes one single statement about >> making the DTLS handshake lighter: > >I'd be very careful saying "making theDTLS handshake lighter" because >most people who read that will think of changing the DTLS handshake >protocol. This is not what you propose here, I guess. No. OK, let=B9s be more careful. This is about applying DTLS with certain keys, PSK identities, certificate formats etc. to reduce processing etc. in constrained devices. What shall we call that? =B3Profiling DTLS handshake=B2? > >> "Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorisation." > >> I find that a well founded but still special case. And item 4 on the >>list >> of open issues is another. I would like to understand why item 4 would >>not >> be in scope if this is. > >I don't say that item 4 is out of scope. In fact, I think it is not only >in scope but it is already covered by the existing charter proposal. I agree that it is covered in "Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability, selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be standardized.=B2 However, it is not explicit in any task, which I guess is why it is still considered an open issue. G=F6ran From Akbar.Rahman@interdigital.com Thu Jan 23 09:05:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70FB81A006C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:05:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4GPqE6SuKZrZ for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (smtp-in1.interdigital.com [64.208.228.133]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C4B1A0055 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:05:08 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1390496706-06daaa5b778f8a0001-Yzt3Th Received: from smtp-out1.interdigital.com (sahara.interdigital.com [10.0.128.27]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id FlaBEGmh99P7YKhh for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:05:06 -0500 (EST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by smtp-out1.interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:05:39 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:05:38 -0500 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Thread-Index: Ac8YW80xbpdhkB7+SVycPfSUxDQeiQ== From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "Ludwig Seitz" , "Olaf Bergmann" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2014 17:05:39.0691 (UTC) FILETIME=[578CE3B0:01CF185D] X-Barracuda-Connect: sahara.interdigital.com[10.0.128.27] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1390496706 X-Barracuda-URL: http://10.1.245.3:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.144400 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:05:13 -0000 (Note: Changing the subject line to a more descriptive one for the = topic) Hi Ludwig/Olaf, Thanks for your feedback. It is good that the use case already makes = mention of Proxies. What I was interested in was the following use = cases (and associated questions). Please tell me if it is already in = the scope of the current use case draft or if it should be added. 1) Proxy Unicast Use Case -------------------------------- A building automation case requires that low cost light fixtures = supporting CoAP be purchased off the shelf. Before they are installed, = the light fixtures are configured to send all their CoAP requests = through a CoAP Forward Proxy located in the building. From experience = the building owner sees that the great majority of light fixtures are = safe, but that some small percentage occasionally have malware = installed on them. References: - Forward-Proxies: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-5.7.2 - Security for Proxying: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2=20 Q1 -Should the Resource Server authentication and access control model = require it to know anything about the light fixtures, or should it just = consider that all requests as originating from just the Proxy? =20 Q2 -Can the Proxy enforce authentication and access control model on = behalf of the Resource Server? 2) Proxy Multicast Use Case ---------------------------------- As in (1) but with the extra complication that the Proxy may IP = multicast (i.e. fan out) the single CoAP request from the light fixture = to multiple Resource Servers. Reference: - Multicast Proxying: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-18#section-2.10=20 Q1 & Q2 as in (1) Q3 - Should the multiple Resource Servers have coordinated = authentication and access control models to handle the single multicast = request? Best Regards, Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ludwig Seitz Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 7:36 AM To: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter On 01/23/2014 01:21 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > "Rahman, Akbar" writes: > >> - Will ACE cover the transfer of authorization info to a CoAP forward = >> proxy to send unicast/multicast DTLS messages on behalf of a Client? >> >> (Reference: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2 ) > > The current discussions did not address this issue, and I think that=20 > this will not be a hot topic in the starting phase of a to-be-WG. > > But I agree that this kind of authorization transfer should be taken=20 > into consideration for solution design in the current drafts. Do you=20 > have a description of a usage scenario that could be incorporated with = > the use cases draft? > Proxies are already mentioned in the use cases draft (section 2.5.1 and = requirement U5.3). Rahman, do you think that should be more specific? If so I'm happy to hear your suggestions. /Ludwig -- Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se From ludwig@sics.se Fri Jan 24 01:08:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3CD1A0214 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 01:08:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SqbPl8HjGmd7 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 01:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769CA1A020D for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 01:08:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0O95bdh015966; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:08:21 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh3328n9p-1; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:08:21 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 065DF40117; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:08:20 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E22D7E.50309@sics.se> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:08:14 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rahman, Akbar" , Olaf Bergmann References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms080702040305060603020901" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-23_05:2014-01-23,2014-01-23,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401240011 Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:08:28 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080702040305060603020901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/23/2014 06:05 PM, Rahman, Akbar wrote: > (Note: Changing the subject line to a more descriptive one for the topi= c) > > > Hi Ludwig/Olaf, > > > Thanks for your feedback. It is good that the use case already makes m= ention of Proxies. > What I was interested in was the following use cases (and associated=20 questions). Please > tell me if it is already in the scope of the current use case draft=20 or if it should be added. > > > 1) Proxy Unicast Use Case > -------------------------------- > A building automation case requires that low cost light fixtures suppor= ting CoAP be purchased > off the shelf. Before they are installed, the light fixtures are=20 configured to send all their > CoAP requests through a CoAP Forward Proxy located in the building.=20 From experience the > building owner sees that the great majority of light fixtures are=20 safe, but that some small > percentage occasionally have malware installed on them. > > References: > - Forward-Proxies: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#s= ection-5.7.2 > - Security for Proxying: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coa= p-18#section-11.2 > > The use case document does not go into that level of detail. If you'd=20 like to write up a compelling use case for this, I'd be happy to=20 integrate it into the draft. You will also find some consideration on this question in=20 draft-selander-core-access-control (=20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-core-access-control#section-5.1= ). > Q1 -Should the Resource Server authentication and access control model = require it to know > anything about the light fixtures, or should it just consider that=20 all requests as originating > from just the Proxy? In the general case it depends on the severity of the threat (in your=20 specific use case I think it's not worth the extra effort for the latter = option). I'd say that both options must be possible to support with a=20 standardized solution. > Q2 -Can the Proxy enforce authentication and access control model on be= half of the Resource > Server? > In your case the proxy belongs to the same resource owner as the=20 servers, so obviously the answer is yes. Otherwise there is a trust=20 establishment issue that needs to be solved. > > > 2) Proxy Multicast Use Case > ---------------------------------- > As in (1) but with the extra complication that the Proxy may IP multica= st (i.e. fan out) > the single CoAP request from the light fixture to multiple Resource > Servers. > > > Reference: > - Multicast Proxying: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-groupc= omm-18#section-2.10 > > > Q1 & Q2 as in (1) > Q3 - Should the multiple Resource Servers have coordinated authenticati= on and access control models to handle the single multicast request? > Again this depends on who the resource owner(s) is/are. If all servers=20 belong to a single owner, obviously you'd want some coordination. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms080702040305060603020901 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 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SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA407-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:27:38 +0800 From: Likepeng To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfcws6Jb64qr7EyB1+x3u+RdR5qRqPoAgAHwUOA= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:27:37 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE3E36@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+QWNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K PiA+QWNlQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2FjZQ0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18NCj4gQWNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBBY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hY2UNCg== From goran.selander@ericsson.com Fri Jan 24 03:03:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AF21A01D8 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 03:03:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lwdVBvNqOqeK for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 03:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D2B1A0098 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 03:03:19 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-19-52e24875429a Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 82.F4.10875.57842E25; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 12:03:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.107]) by ESESSHC006.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.36]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 12:03:16 +0100 From: =?Windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Likepeng , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfepatuQ7tby5kajZevRfLrVVJqSLxMAgAFhRICAACuAgA== Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:03:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE3E36@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE3E36@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6px6MggxvNChbfv/UwW+w53MTs wOTRcuQtq8eSJT+ZApiiuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0SuDJ+XbjKXnCQreLQu9fsDYxrWbsYOTkkBEwk 2rYcZYewxSQu3FvP1sXIxSEkcIhRYta+FYwQzhJGiQ83jrOBVLEJuEs87tnIAmKLCDhK3P14 DqxbWMBIYt2RzUxdjBxAcWOJvZOYIUqcJL63LWIEsVkEVCWO/3gJVs4rYC5xYe5LVoj58xkl bi17DFbEKRAmce/oJyYQmxHoou+n1oDZzALiEreezGeCuFRAYsme88wQtqjEy8f/wL4RFdCT uPdoLgtEXFHi6vTlUL0GEu/PzWeGsK0lfm/exwZha0ssW/iaGeIgQYmTM5+wTGAUn4Vk3Swk 7bOQtM9C0j4LSfsCRtZVjOy5iZk56eWGmxiBUXVwy2/dHYynzokcYpTmYFES5/3w1jlISCA9 sSQ1OzW1ILUovqg0J7X4ECMTB6dUA6NYafEhdo8rwpPs9r5e12K5ZO2hrn/uS3OsONtDTvJu sLot+eZQu3ztpUsn/3+90HW36dxH/0U7efcztxusrSqKlPvfFsZ6+uh8hWvmjhV+zj3M2/yu +a0P38NsYv81Wkzuzzkp+U3tC2/ElBYYNNunSxoesms3Mbz6J/Bf+r+/76VuWJ9lFVRiKc5I NNRiLipOBACKf2HweAIAAA== Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:03:21 -0000 On 24/01/14 10:27, "Likepeng" wrote: >> I think the issues around authorisation lifetime or revocation deserves >>should also be listed in the tasks below > >Currently we have this task in the list: >=80Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of >authorization information suitable for constrained device to constrained >device communication. > >Do you have any proposal to merge the lifetime/revocation into the >sentence above?=20 > >Or have another general task? If we have a separate bullet just for >lifetime/revocation, that may be too emphasized. How about: Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of authorization information suitable for constrained environments, and taking into account expiry/revocation. Too short? G=F6ran From 1095318589@qq.com Fri Jan 24 06:25:39 2014 Return-Path: <1095318589@qq.com> X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CBB51A0254 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 06:25:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.984 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.984 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0vIG-xEYq3UF for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 06:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpbg64.qq.com (smtpbg62.qq.com [103.7.29.139]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 072EB1A0253 for ; 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Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:10:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2jVbhuUx4jk for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (smtp-in1.interdigital.com [64.208.228.133]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD051A0047 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:10:40 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1390590637-06daaa106123b930001-Yzt3Th Received: from smtp-out1.interdigital.com (sahara.interdigital.com [10.0.128.27]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id 2uKrHap4xIfduaPO for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 14:10:37 -0500 (EST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by smtp-out1.interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 14:11:11 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 14:11:10 -0500 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <52E22D7E.50309@sics.se> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Thread-Index: Ac8Y4/rcKdzDfzZkRK6UVgx7lm13dgAU3SxA References: <52E22D7E.50309@sics.se> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "Ludwig Seitz" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jan 2014 19:11:11.0340 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B2D12C0:01CF1938] X-Barracuda-Connect: sahara.interdigital.com[10.0.128.27] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1390590637 X-Barracuda-URL: http://10.1.245.3:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.144436 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header Cc: Olaf Bergmann , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 19:10:44 -0000 Thanks, Ludwig. It sounds like you are saying my concerns will be = naturally covered during the ACE requirements and protocol development. = So I will just keep an eye out as the ACE effort progresses and = contribute as required. Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Ludwig Seitz [mailto:ludwig@sics.se]=20 Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 4:08 AM To: Rahman, Akbar; Olaf Bergmann Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: Possible Proxy use cases for ACE On 01/23/2014 06:05 PM, Rahman, Akbar wrote: > (Note: Changing the subject line to a more descriptive one for the = topic) > > > Hi Ludwig/Olaf, > > > Thanks for your feedback. It is good that the use case already makes = mention of Proxies. > What I was interested in was the following use cases (and associated=20 questions). Please > tell me if it is already in the scope of the current use case draft=20 or if it should be added. > > > 1) Proxy Unicast Use Case > -------------------------------- > A building automation case requires that low cost light fixtures = supporting CoAP be purchased > off the shelf. Before they are installed, the light fixtures are=20 configured to send all their > CoAP requests through a CoAP Forward Proxy located in the building.=20 From experience the > building owner sees that the great majority of light fixtures are=20 safe, but that some small > percentage occasionally have malware installed on them. > > References: > - Forward-Proxies: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-5.7.2 > - Security for Proxying: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2 > > The use case document does not go into that level of detail. If you'd=20 like to write up a compelling use case for this, I'd be happy to=20 integrate it into the draft. You will also find some consideration on this question in=20 draft-selander-core-access-control (=20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-core-access-control#section-5.1= ). > Q1 -Should the Resource Server authentication and access control model = require it to know > anything about the light fixtures, or should it just consider that=20 all requests as originating > from just the Proxy? In the general case it depends on the severity of the threat (in your=20 specific use case I think it's not worth the extra effort for the latter = option). I'd say that both options must be possible to support with a=20 standardized solution. > Q2 -Can the Proxy enforce authentication and access control model on = behalf of the Resource > Server? > In your case the proxy belongs to the same resource owner as the=20 servers, so obviously the answer is yes. Otherwise there is a trust=20 establishment issue that needs to be solved. > > > 2) Proxy Multicast Use Case > ---------------------------------- > As in (1) but with the extra complication that the Proxy may IP = multicast (i.e. fan out) > the single CoAP request from the light fixture to multiple Resource > Servers. > > > Reference: > - Multicast Proxying: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-18#section-2.10 > > > Q1 & Q2 as in (1) > Q3 - Should the multiple Resource Servers have coordinated = authentication and access control models to handle the single multicast = request? > Again this depends on who the resource owner(s) is/are. If all servers=20 belong to a single owner, obviously you'd want some coordination. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se From likepeng@huawei.com Mon Jan 27 01:32:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95731A011B for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 01:32:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DwWFPq26f85L for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 01:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851E71A0163 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 01:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAL55807; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:32:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:31:18 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.38) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:31:33 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:31:29 +0800 From: Likepeng To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfcws6Jb64qr7EyB1+x3u+RdR5qRqPoAgAati6A= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:31:28 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE48A7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:32:13 -0000 PiA+IERvY3VtZW50IHRoZSBhcHBsaWNhYmlsaXR5IG9mIHRoZSBtYWluIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9u 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+QWNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KPiA+QWNlQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2FjZQ0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18NCj4gQWNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBBY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hY2UNCg== From goran.selander@ericsson.com Mon Jan 27 02:18:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6131A0186 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 02:18:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tGsOodkp9xTO for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 02:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75B61A011C for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 02:18:12 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f418e000001099-07-52e632612d2d Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C8.18.04249.16236E25; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:18:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.188]) by ESESSHC023.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.87]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:18:09 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Likepeng , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfepatuQ7tby5kajZevRfLrVVJqSLxMAgAYZVgCAAB3MgA== Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 10:18:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE48A7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE48A7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <60EA6BC7A6F5AB4CBB36D6327E24E146@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6i0bMgg1XfrS2+f+thtthzuInZ gcmj5chbVo8lS34yBTBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGX0fjzNXvCVreLjto+sDYxHWLsYOTkkBEwk Fi47zgJhi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI4AijxON181ggnCWMEn0LL4JVsQm4Shx48I4JxBYRcJS4+/Ec O4gtLGAkse7IZqA4B1DcWGLvJGaIEieJua2PGUHCLAKqEvPve4OEeQXMJd7tOwu1az6jxMLn 0xlBEpwCYRJfpq8GsxmBDvp+ag3YKmYBcYlbT+YzQRwqILFkz3lmCFtU4uXjf2DPiAroSdx7 NBfqGSWJFdsvMUL06kncmDqFDcK2lujb8R5qprbEsoWvmSEOEpQ4OfMJywRG8VlI1s1C0j4L SfssJO2zkLQvYGRdxchRnFqclJtuZLCJERhVB7f8ttjBePmvzSFGaQ4WJXHej2+dg4QE0hNL UrNTUwtSi+KLSnNSiw8xMnFwSjUwtl3LC/5fsCn4pXTTqp2Z5vy38m+yTP3LpyGv31a+87xS m5fN5ckHF9ZsPjlP0O3/6aTp0Qudu7SfWl44Z6W9581ZMWfP+T0Vdw9s+3Yo6IKOVN7s6tet St82yc6oTNH7/L5tT8/nBy8NTjorznTS1BFZtmvhRcaW6LS0n402Z5b9tPD5lVbzSImlOCPR UIu5qDgRAIqFDot4AgAA Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 10:18:14 -0000 Hi Kepeng On 27/01/14 10:31, "Likepeng" wrote: >> > Document the applicability of the main authentication and key exchange >> >protocols with respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, >> >power consumption etc.) and their suitability for the use cases. >>=20 >> 5. Referring to 3. above, it is in this context I see the need to >>specify design >> constraints, to be able to make a comparison and to decide what to >> standardise. > >According to the previous discussion, it seems that you propose to change >this bullet to: > >Document design criteria for the required security protocols with respect >to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, power consumption etc.). Yes, that is a good summary. G=F6ran > >Personally I am fine with either way. > >Let's see other's opinion. >Thanks, > >Kind Regards >Kepeng From gerdes@tzi.de Mon Jan 27 06:35:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 536031A021D for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:35:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iFlFqGPV7rhc for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AAAD1A013F for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:35:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0REZbGB007711 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:35:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.146] (p57A7D7C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.167.215.201]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0EFD3483 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:35:37 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E66EB8.9060606@tzi.de> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:35:36 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE48A7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 14:35:47 -0000 Hi Göran, On 01/27/2014 11:18 AM, Göran Selander wrote: > Hi Kepeng > > On 27/01/14 10:31, "Likepeng" wrote: > >>>> Document the applicability of the main authentication and key exchange >>>> protocols with respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, >>>> power consumption etc.) and their suitability for the use cases. >>> >>> 5. Referring to 3. above, it is in this context I see the need to >>> specify design >>> constraints, to be able to make a comparison and to decide what to >>> standardise. >> >> According to the previous discussion, it seems that you propose to change >> this bullet to: >> >> Document design criteria for the required security protocols with respect >> to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, power consumption etc.). > > Yes, that is a good summary. The task about the applicability of main authentication and key exchange protocols was added to the list of tasks because we need to make sure that we don't reinvent the wheel (open issue 3). I am not quite sure what you are aiming at with documenting the design criteria. I can't really picture what a practical work item would be for that task. Can you explain that in more detail? Best regards, Steffi From gerdes@tzi.de Mon Jan 27 07:49:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F071A0228 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:49:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C7AvOJ28LCLv for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469311A021B for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:49:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0RFndmv003096; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:49:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.146] (p57A7D7C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.167.215.201]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 09B7C51D; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:49:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:49:38 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:49:48 -0000 Hi Göran, On 01/23/2014 12:23 PM, Göran Selander wrote: >> >> Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization. > > > 4. This has been discussed before, e.g. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html > > - The term ³authenticated authorization² is not defined or referenced. I am not really sure if we need a definition for that. As I stated before (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00084.html), authenticated authorization means that you know who issued the authorization. That is pretty straight-forward, I think. And I think it is really important to point out that we want to be able to do this. Maybe the problem is a misunderstanding about the terms. In http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html you are citing http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg05132.html which stated that authorization doesn't require authentication because you don't in all cases need an identity. Authentication is not necessarily about verifying an identity, though (I stated that later in the thread, too: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg05136.html). It means that it is possible to verify a certain attribute of a subject, e.g. if it has a certain key. In the case of authorization we want to make sure that the authorization is in the resource owner's interest and we have to make sure that we can verify that. Best regards, Steffi From gerdes@tzi.de Mon Jan 27 08:13:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C4131A02B2 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 08:13:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7rN6sxzVXH7j for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 08:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224811A0231 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 08:13:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0RGD6O1021164; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:13:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.146] (p57A7D7C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.167.215.201]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65CAA549; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:13:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E68591.7010602@tzi.de> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:13:05 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Bert Greevenbosch , Ludwig Seitz , Likepeng Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:13:41 -0000 Hi Göran, On 01/14/2014 02:15 PM, Göran Selander wrote: > > In a recent ACE thread, we discussed the option of either client or server > being non-constrained. How about replacing "constrained device to constrained > device communication" with "constrained environments"? There was some discussion about this in Vancouver and we came to the conclusion that although we want to cover cases where one of the devices is unconstrained, the most interesting case is where both devices are constrained and we want to be able to support this case. This is why we emphasized this point. Best regards, Steffi From Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com Mon Jan 27 16:47:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7071A02DA for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:47:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bojEbyzQcaM5 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C181A008F for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAM63178; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:46:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:46:35 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.38) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:46:50 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.206]) by SZXEMA406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:46:46 +0800 From: Bert Greevenbosch To: Stefanie Gerdes , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfcxHT4Xwiq9DU6bS1MjemHvdZqRqPoAgAaTvwCAARalgA== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:46:45 +0000 Message-ID: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.162.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:47:09 -0000 Hi Steffi, G=F6ran, I agree about the need for "authenticated authorisation", with authenticati= on in the sense that it should be possible to bind authorisation securely t= o the authorised party. This could be done by e.g. a signature or a secret = only known by to parties involved in this particular authorisation process. For example, if the authorisation server can authenticate the client, then = it can provide the client with a secret known to itself and the resource se= rver. In this way, the resource server can verify that the client was authe= nticated by the authorisation server. Another solution would be a signature= /mac from the authorisation server over the public key of the client in the= authorisation information. Perhaps the technical details should be part of a later discussion, but for= now I just want to indicate my interpretation of "authorised authenticatio= n". Best regards, Bert > -----Original Message----- > From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stefanie Gerdes > Sent: 27 January 2014 23:50 > To: G=F6ran Selander; ace@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter >=20 > Hi G=F6ran, >=20 > On 01/23/2014 12:23 PM, G=F6ran Selander wrote: > >> > >> Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated > authorization. > > > > > > 4. This has been discussed before, e.g. > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html > > > > - The term =B3authenticated authorization=B2 is not defined or referenc= ed. >=20 > I am not really sure if we need a definition for that. As I stated > before (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00084.html), > authenticated authorization means that you know who issued the > authorization. That is pretty straight-forward, I think. And I think it > is really important to point out that we want to be able to do this. >=20 > Maybe the problem is a misunderstanding about the terms. In > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00104.html you are > citing http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg05132.html > which stated that authorization doesn't require authentication because > you don't in all cases need an identity. Authentication is not > necessarily about verifying an identity, though (I stated that later in > the thread, too: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/core/current/msg05136.html). It > means that it is possible to verify a certain attribute of a subject, > e.g. if it has a certain key. In the case of authorization we want to > make sure that the authorization is in the resource owner's interest > and > we have to make sure that we can verify that. >=20 > Best regards, > Steffi >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From bergmann@tzi.org Tue Jan 28 00:07:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D781A0271 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:07:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CBdu-0SQjRlT for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EED7C1A022D for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:07:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0S86gaB009876; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:06:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (p57A7D98D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.167.217.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7894787; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:06:42 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Bert Greevenbosch References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:06:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> (Bert Greevenbosch's message of "Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:46:45 +0000") Message-ID: <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:07:05 -0000 Hi, I agree completely with Bert's interpretation of the term -- possibly with the addition that it should be mutual (i.e. not only the resource server relies on the client to be authenticated by the authorization server but also the client can be sure that the authorization only works with the right resource server). To me, the term "authenticated authorization" seems pretty intuitive as others already said. I do not see the need for explicitly defining it in the charter text. Best regards Olaf Bert Greevenbosch writes: > Hi Steffi, G=F6ran, > > I agree about the need for "authenticated authorisation", with > authentication in the sense that it should be possible to bind > authorisation securely to the authorised party. This could be done by > e.g. a signature or a secret only known by to parties involved in this > particular authorisation process. > > For example, if the authorisation server can authenticate the client, > then it can provide the client with a secret known to itself and the > resource server. In this way, the resource server can verify that the > client was authenticated by the authorisation server. Another solution > would be a signature/mac from the authorisation server over the public > key of the client in the authorisation information. > > Perhaps the technical details should be part of a later discussion, > but for now I just want to indicate my interpretation of "authorised > authentication". > > Best regards, > Bert From goran.selander@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 00:54:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1705F1A0367 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:54:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BzV4fd8ck1U4 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2592A1A003E for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:54:23 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-2d-52e7703c3443 Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 93.19.04853.C3077E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:54:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.188]) by ESESSHC002.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.24]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:54:20 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Olaf Bergmann , Bert Greevenbosch Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPG//gatuQ7tby5kajZevRfLrVVJqZ1Q4A Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:54:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <44B4B750BFD0914385FC5B52503B149B@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprCIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja5twfMgg45tTBbfv/UwWzQtbmSy +P1kBavFxot3GR1YPFqOvGX1WLLkJ5PHtrdfmT2mLcoMYInisklJzcksSy3St0vgyujf+JOl 4Ih8xb+9F1kaGPdIdjFyckgImEi8fTiJHcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DACUaJqRuuMkE4SxglOg8v ZQapYhNwlTjw4B0TiC0iECHRe/IIUJyDg1nASaLluxRIWFjASGLdkc1MIGERAWOJvZOYIUwj iSMn7EAqWARUJX5uesEIYvMKmEss7v7BCrFpF6PEtAtLWUASnEBFTy6sBitiBLrt+6k1YFuZ BcQlbj2ZzwRxs4DEkj3nmSFsUYmXj/+xgtiiAnoS9x7NZYGIK0msPbydBaJXT+LG1ClsELa1 xLOmJ1C2tsSyha+ZIQ4SlDg58wnLBEaJWUjWzULSPgtJ+ywk7bOQtC9gZF3FKFmcWlycm25k oJebnluil1qUmVxcnJ+nV5y6iREYswe3/DbawXhyj/0hRmkOFiVx3uusNUFCAumJJanZqakF qUXxRaU5qcWHGJk4OKUaGEWu6qs7TZt5IdNeXHTnPBcW8aWPD+7V3tCRd7T6fXFryb8Ne14G OrFd27I54Jlj+r8SyR/H14nda3GSY+KIEJFfxqxunLeV3eLozHUJ7vutVn0WNjQ8l57TJu+i 7XE8Zd2enLp1DdkcteEb81rcsg88nP29SfGs7NLVETNsivbz6SuwrX6wSImlOCPRUIu5qDgR ACuhIR6nAgAA Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:54:26 -0000 Hi Steffi, Bert, Olaf, If I understand right it seems to me that just in is short mail thread there are three different interpretations of this term. Let me try to reformulate your definitions in my own words, please correct me if I=B9m wrong: 1. Authentication of authorisation server (and/or verification of integrity of token) by the resource server (Steffi) "authenticated authorization means that you know who issued the authorization." 'the term "authenticated authorization" means that you know where the authorization came from.' 2. Authentication of authorised client (and/or key confirmation) by the resource server (Bert) "it should be possible to bind authorisation securely to the authorised party" "For example, if the authorisation server can authenticate the client, then it can provide the client with a secret known to itself and the resource server. In this way, the resource server can verify that the client was authenticated by the authorisation server." 3. Mutual authentication of (and/or key confirmation by) authorised client and authorised resource server (Olaf) "it should be mutual (i.e. not only the resource server relies on the client to be authenticated by the authorization server but also the client can be sure that the authorization only works with the right resource server)" Maybe I=B9ve misunderstood something, but if not - aren=B9t these differenc= es slightly to big to say that this term is well defined? Now, does it have to be well defined? The current charter includes the following task: "Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorisation" With the range of definitions above I can read in several interpretations of this task, for example: 1. Define profiles of authorisation server certificates used for authenticating the authorisation server by the resource server 2. Define profiles of client certificates used for authenticating the authorised client to the resource server 3. Define profiles of client and server certificates for mutually authenticating authorised client and authorised resource server. Maybe this is the devil reading the bible. But I find it slightly disturbing that I don=B9t really understand what is proposed. And I=B9d rat= her discuss content than terminology :-) G=F6ran On 28/01/14 09:06, "Olaf Bergmann" wrote: >Hi, > >I agree completely with Bert's interpretation of the term -- possibly >with the addition that it should be mutual (i.e. not only the resource >server relies on the client to be authenticated by the authorization >server but also the client can be sure that the authorization only works >with the right resource server). > >To me, the term "authenticated authorization" seems pretty intuitive as >others already said. I do not see the need for explicitly defining it in >the charter text. > >Best regards >Olaf > >Bert Greevenbosch writes: > >> Hi Steffi, G=F6ran, >> >> I agree about the need for "authenticated authorisation", with >> authentication in the sense that it should be possible to bind >> authorisation securely to the authorised party. This could be done by >> e.g. a signature or a secret only known by to parties involved in this >> particular authorisation process. >> >> For example, if the authorisation server can authenticate the client, >> then it can provide the client with a secret known to itself and the >> resource server. In this way, the resource server can verify that the >> client was authenticated by the authorisation server. Another solution >> would be a signature/mac from the authorisation server over the public >> key of the client in the authorisation information. >> >> Perhaps the technical details should be part of a later discussion, >> but for now I just want to indicate my interpretation of "authorised >> authentication". >> >> Best regards, >> Bert From goran.selander@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 01:02:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16DFE1A02D0 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:02:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id omFMO1GhTVc4 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg20.ericsson.net (sesbmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EEDA1A026A for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:02:28 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb38-b7f418e000001099-b1-52e772215688 Received: from ESESSHC013.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 63.F9.04249.12277E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:02:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.188]) by ESESSHC013.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.57]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:02:25 +0100 From: =?Windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfepatuQ7tby5kajZevRfLrVVJqSLxMAgAYZVgCAAB3MgIAANy0AgAFF/4A= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:02:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE48A7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52E66EB8.9060606@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52E66EB8.9060606@tzi.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja5i0fMggy/T5Cy+f+thtth48S6j A5PHkiU/mTy2vf3KHMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJWx+8d+toIZ4hWPW2eyNTC+F+pi5OSQEDCR eLdwAjOELSZx4d56ti5GLg4hgSOMEk3fbjJDOEsYJQ52bmAHqWITcJd43LORBcQWEXCS6Jqy DcwWFjCSWHdkM1MXIwdQ3Fhi7yRmiBI/idlLvjOC2CwCqhL3Z3SD2bwC5hK3nt+Dmv+cUWLv g0OsIAlOATWJlxcmgdmMQBd9P7WGCcRmFhCXuPVkPhPEpQISS/ach7paVOLl439g9aICehL3 Hs1lgYgrSSy6/Rmq10Di/bn5zBC2tcS1Dz+gbG2JZQtfM0McJChxcuYTlgmM4rOQrJuFpH0W kvZZSNpnIWlfwMi6ipGjOLU4KTfdyGATIzCuDm75bbGD8fJfm0OM0hwsSuK8H986BwkJpCeW pGanphakFsUXleakFh9iZOLglGpgrPDO5DnvkfxcI6Vdv3rd/KvXb67JW3MzVvjFT2adaa+N Q0X+hjjf3Ky1eA1nsFn5H2XtJo4VG2ZPVdlqkpeuGxDdeWa9z/XlkSeWSjAFFu3VLGNi3aVk v5Y59FSh9EK9A8+s57Raz9j8UWDlJZ3nZ3LnRHxNYi9eNOHwEycT+UhBgT2Kd3cxKLEUZyQa ajEXFScCAMRsLk95AgAA Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:02:30 -0000 Hi Steffi On 27/01/14 15:35, "Stefanie Gerdes" wrote: >Hi G=F6ran, > >On 01/27/2014 11:18 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote: >> Hi Kepeng >>=20 >> On 27/01/14 10:31, "Likepeng" wrote: >>=20 >>>>> Document the applicability of the main authentication and key >>>>>exchange >>>>> protocols with respect to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, >>>>> power consumption etc.) and their suitability for the use cases. >>>> >>>> 5. Referring to 3. above, it is in this context I see the need to >>>> specify design >>>> constraints, to be able to make a comparison and to decide what to >>>> standardise. >>> >>> According to the previous discussion, it seems that you propose to >>>change >>> this bullet to: >>> >>> Document design criteria for the required security protocols with >>>respect >>> to resource usage (RAM, message round trips, power consumption etc.). >>=20 >> Yes, that is a good summary. > >The task about the applicability of main authentication and key exchange >protocols was added to the list of tasks because we need to make sure >that we don't reinvent the wheel (open issue 3). > >I am not quite sure what you are aiming at with documenting the design >criteria. I can't really picture what a practical work item would be for >that task. Can you explain that in more detail? I=B9ll try :-) I did not want to put =B3document design criteria" against =B3document applicability=B2. In fact I think they are complementing each other: How do you determine =B3applicability=B2? For this you need an understanding and/= or make certain assumptions of the various =8Ccosts' in constrained devices associated to certain security protocol constructions. The intention with =B3document design criteria=B2 is to describe some of these aspects. In thi= s sense, deciding on relevant =B3design criteria=B2 is a pre-requisite to determine =B3applicability=B2. The former may also be useful in comparing different constructions. As a concrete example, let=B9s say that in one protocol you have reduced crypto in constrained device to a bare minimum, and in another protocol you instead reduce the number of round trips at the cost of performing a large amount of symmetric key crypto. Which protocol is preferred from the point of view of e.g. energy consumption in a wireless device? In some cases this may be easy to state, in other cases this may depend on certain conditions and you need to make assumptions. Another objective of this task could be to document such assumptions. The practical work would be to put together this kind of information regarding "costs=B2 in an informational document to be used as rationale when profiling an existing protocol or designing a new. I imagine this not so much new results as a compilation of knowledge in CoRE, LWIG, etc. set in the context of security protocols. Does that make more sense? G=F6ran From goran.selander@ericsson.com Tue Jan 28 01:32:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A0D1A008A for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:32:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YKkpH5x5mZMt for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906051A0018 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 01:32:46 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-d1-52e7793a0f32 Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 28.0F.04853.A3977E25; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:32:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.188]) by ESESSHC003.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.27]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:32:42 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Charter Update Thread-Index: AQHPEQODYpam4LbFJUioLZLuB/tCYZqEM2aAgBSPIYCAATM4AA== Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:32:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52D4F6AD.3060101@tzi.de> <52E68591.7010602@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: <52E68591.7010602@tzi.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja5V5fMgg0ftmhbfv/UwW/x+soLV YuPFu4wWew43MVu8ar3D7MDq0XLkLavHkiU/mTx6j/1m89j29itzAEsUl01Kak5mWWqRvl0C V8arhnVsBW84K/afPcPSwNjA0cXIySEhYCKx4sx6NghbTOLCPQhbSOAEo8TW89VdjFxA9hJG iWeL97CCJNgEXCUOPHjHBGKLCDhJdE3ZxtLFyMHBLFAqMXdCCUhYWEBRYu/0p+wgYREBJYl/ O1ggTCeJK3uyQSpYBFQlfkzvYgexeQXMJbYtPc8IsTVPYsOkjcwgNqeAmsTLu11gSxmBLvt+ ag3YUmYBcYlbT+YzQVwsILFkz3lmCFtU4uXjf2D1ogJ6EvcezWWBiCtJrNh+iRGiV0/ixtQp bBC2tcSTo0ehbG2JZQtfM0PcIyhxcuYTlgmMErOQrJuFpH0WkvZZSNpnIWlfwMi6ilGyOLW4 ODfdyEAvNz23RC+1KDO5uDg/T684dRMjMHYPbvlttIPx5B77Q4zSHCxK4rzXWWuChATSE0tS s1NTC1KL4otKc1KLDzEycXBKNTBW+cV0mxzfUXPibPqMDUdve3WGmgu0yrYsTTw6P2vxsk5r w9fH59s5xydpbVO+b8/UIqDFWD35/vfth5NrIzRnf1sdplnZ/fwZw5/VTgyL9nH3zDyj4ePX a+iotJrr2aouvzL7ZfN56y3tn9mu5fr8+qVy07ubNc26axkOaHL61lldvbRh92QlluKMREMt 5qLiRABhJBkmqwIAAA== Cc: Bert Greevenbosch , Ludwig Seitz , Likepeng Subject: Re: [Ace] Charter Update X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:32:48 -0000 Hi Steffi, On 27/01/14 17:13, "Stefanie Gerdes" wrote: >Hi G=F6ran, > >On 01/14/2014 02:15 PM, G=F6ran Selander wrote: > >>=20 >> In a recent ACE thread, we discussed the option of either client or >>server >> being non-constrained. How about replacing "constrained device to >>constrained >> device communication" with "constrained environments"? > >There was some discussion about this in Vancouver and we came to the >conclusion that although we want to cover cases where one of the devices >is unconstrained, the most interesting case is where both devices are >constrained and we want to be able to support this case. This is why we >emphasized this point. OK, thanks. I take it that is what you called "peer-to-peer authorisation=B2, right? Assuming that there are different mechanisms for transfer of authorisation information suitable depending on whether either client or resource server or both are constrained, I would like to make clear that this is all in scope.=20 How about: "Define a mechanism for authenticated and protected transfer of authorization information suitable for constrained environments, in particular=20 when both client and server are constrained.=B2 G=F6ran From bergmann@tzi.org Tue Jan 28 02:05:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDAB91A02D0 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 02:05:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id moxBdP2ELMcd for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 02:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2071A0258 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 02:05:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0SA5O9v006833; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:05:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (unknown [134.102.116.121]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 60B1B8EF; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:05:24 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:05:23 +0100 In-Reply-To: (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22G=F6ran?= Selander"'s message of "Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:54:19 +0000") Message-ID: <87d2jca0bg.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:05:42 -0000 G=F6ran, G=F6ran Selander writes: > Hi Steffi, Bert, Olaf, > > > If I understand right it seems to me that just in is short mail thread > there are three different interpretations of this term. Let me try to > reformulate your definitions in my own words, please correct me if I=B9m > wrong: This is not my understanding. I think that these three just highlight different aspects of the same thing (that is why I have explicitly said that I agree with Bert's statement and tried to add the missing point that came up in several discussions in Vancouver). > 1. Authentication of authorisation server (and/or verification of > integrity of token) by the resource server (Steffi) > > "authenticated authorization means that you know who issued the > authorization." > > 'the term "authenticated authorization" means that > you know where the authorization came from.' And these two statements fit into what Bert said. I do not get why this should be different -- to me, it sounds just like another technical detail of the same thing. Gruesse Olaf From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Tue Jan 28 03:31:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85BA91A01EC for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 03:31:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PGcWQcmCiRPE for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 03:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C1D1A038B for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 03:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs49.server.lan ([172.19.170.102]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx002) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0Le7u6-1VVUnb1Chg-00pwEg for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:30:55 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs49.server.lan with HTTP; Tue Jan 28 12:30:55 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:30:55 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:pXhHjTXnhDvpSPCvA8g81vKW6fJEm+INNrIBTIGZdgr dixOE/rfN2ENWHnsG/W+KLwc6MNo6r13EfungzyP0d5XbM1Vxp 3m2SmziWbwAZFJfxj7zzKZElUdjjItNBchcUQchqgSmWahFh9l gV075+g50DZZsXBE6tbGEURwzCCa03SJ/Cz7vefqGT6LLcQeoD v4bB4VoeoiFMRyFJxQhkp3n9oHpg3xbndDEeIcS8E46r8rgyuH thvqg6w5a4uJvYpT1qB8jeSnMrNvPTo4tEPjTP+l5nJW3v49Gf 5c7Wm4= Subject: [Ace] Charter Discussions X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:31:02 -0000 Hi all,=C2=A0 when I read through various comments then two observations come to my mind= : * Nitpicking, and=C2=A0 * "I want my draft covered in the charter" mentality.=C2=A0 Try to keep the bigger goal in mind but your most favorite optimization on= the side for the moment. I understand that everyone wants to have their dr= aft covered since this is the typical IETF style of working but also think = about the wider IoT ecosystem, who should benefit from this standardization= .=C2=A0 Here is what I believe we try to accomplish collectively (not only with th= is work but with the IoT standardization in the IETF in general).=C2=A0 For a long time we have been saying that Internet Protocols can be used in= constrained devices. This was the community reaction based on what we had = seen happening in the industry when everyone started to standardize and dev= elop their own new IoT architecture. I think we still believe in that overa= ll message.=C2=A0 Having said that there is of course room for profiling of existing protoco= ls to deal with the nature of IoT devices and different environments suffer= from different limitations. Sometimes we talk about a device that runs on = a battery, and sometimes we are facing devices with simplistic user interfa= ces. We have discussed these different constraints already in other groups = before and the constraints vary from deployment to deployment. =C2=A0 If we re-invent security protocols I believe we make a big mistake. It wil= l take a lot of work, and it will even take much, much longer to get the re= st of the industry convinced that they should be using it when the use of C= oAP already requires a fair amount of marketing and outreach. Also, I have = been observing that many of you do not know the state of the art as well as= I would have hoped. Do your home work first before you write your draft.= =C2=A0 I would suggest to avoid tailoring every sentence in the charter and inste= ad to focus on the bigger topics. There are a few technologies to look at that can be re-used (with a bit of= profiling, I have to admit): =C2=A0(1) Kerberos =C2=A0(2) OAuth=C2=A0 =C2=A0(3) Certificates For the BOF I would like to see the group having a better understanding of= how these technologies cover the use cases. I would also like to see more = discussions on the use cases since they drive the technology in the end. If= the use cases are wrong then the technology developed for them will very l= ikely be unsuccessful.=C2=A0 I will definitely challenge you guys whenever you come up with your own in= vention. Ciao Hannes From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Tue Jan 28 03:37:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3F91A0122 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 03:37:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LoLYup_10LD5 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 03:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC7B1A01D2 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 03:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs49.server.lan ([172.19.170.102]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MckDn-1VqJ9P3V7h-00Hv9N for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:37:38 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs49.server.lan with HTTP; Tue Jan 28 12:37:38 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:37:38 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:euT3IGaV/qY7jPjM/8DjljYGMyDHBFrOERviqgPdXUf YKoyai5MZsXwGAyz/JeeKtmBBzKeKzNoPf0IsqXNohOZUV9bDy GlthzSjz0cDYeVSs5eO7yB4lJbvC7RydJvCNNqKbalMRh4rsRz HODx/0BKkS8DxxgJ/GHL7K8xrltkQ6vLsMGRWNGBOU6tds7Y7h NT8PykzPreBqwMhfddoGh3oOxCx7FJvtY3NKjKYuqowRrmZ2C2 IzkIpxyR54CO6A7t0NgpORkrR2ZGHd4J2V7OFLO0clQh6G9wVX JzFqrU= Subject: [Ace] authenticated authorization X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:37:44 -0000
Hi all, 
 
I have seen these discussions about the term 'authenticated authorization' coming up again. 
 
I don't quite understand why some of you are so exciting about the term. 
 
The challenge is the following: We are talking about a multi-party protocol here. We have at least the following parties 
a) client seeking access to some resource/service
b) authorization server/trusted third party/key distribution server, and 
c) server / resource server
 
Obviously, there are various authentications taking place in such a multi-party protocol. For example, the client will authenticate to the authorization server and vice versa. 
The authorization server will have some relationship with the resource server, which might require the resource server to authenticate information provided by the authorization server. 
Then, you finally have the client talking to the resource server. There you might have some authentication taking place or maybe only key confirmation. 
 
Covering that complex interaction with a single term is a bit challenging.
 
The point of the charter is not to cover everything that may happen in the working group. The charter is marketing material to get others interested. When they read through the charter they should have a rough idea about what is going on.
When you look around different working groups then you will see that even hitting that bar is already a big obstacle for many. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
From cabo@tzi.org Tue Jan 28 04:08:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2A21A01EC for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:08:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.151 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.151 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6pdmcAEJwIWF for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A081A008A for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:08:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0SC8Q0c010192; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:08:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from eduroam-pool7-0813.wlan.uni-bremen.de (eduroam-pool7-0813.wlan.uni-bremen.de [134.102.115.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D5F5DA6A; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:08:25 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:08:24 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <49D77499-362F-48EF-AC80-E04D9B110C56@tzi.org> References: To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] authenticated authorization X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:08:37 -0000 On 28 Jan 2014, at 12:37, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: > I don't quite understand why some of you are so exciting about the = term.=20 It is a pretty good umbrella term for what ACE is doing. It is not supplying all those details (and it is not intended to). Trying to =93define=94 it (beyond what it obviously means) is unlikely = to be a useful exercise. Re the precision we can achieve: I haven=92t spent time to examine how security area charters look like; = I do believe we generally need to supply some guide rails for the WG and = the tasks it is supposed to do. (The other objectives you mention for the charter are also important.) Re doing our homework: Yes, please. However, the one item I don=92t want to have in the charter is a = multi-year effort to generate a consensus document examining all other = protocols out there and convincingly making a case why they all never = can be used for IoT. The ROLL working group was forced to do that, and it was a gigantic = waste of time (didn=92t even make it to RFC). We need to watch out that people who want to quash IETF work in this = space (for whatever reason) don=92t manage to get in such a requirement. = That would be worse than not getting chartered. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From ludwig@sics.se Tue Jan 28 04:13:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9BF1A039F for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:13:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9iiHsSA8X0GB for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63A01A0258 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s0SCA6Uu005179 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:13:17 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh332dfkf-1 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:13:17 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CA1E40116 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:13:17 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E79EDC.4000909@sics.se> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:13:16 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000209050608070008090405" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-01-28_05:2014-01-28,2014-01-28,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1401280036 Subject: Re: [Ace] authenticated authorization X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:13:24 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000209050608070008090405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/28/2014 12:37 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi all, > I have seen these discussions about the term 'authenticated > authorization' coming up again. > I don't quite understand why some of you are so exciting about the term= =2E [snip] >The charter is marketing material to get others > interested. When they read through the charter they should have a rough= > idea about what is going on. This is exactly the reason why I reacted to that term (though calling=20 that getting excited would be a stretch). It is not a term commonly used = by IAM practitioners and thus it doesn't give a rough idea about what is = going on. I can't really understand why we don't just spend a few more words to=20 clarify this up front instead of using a term that can easily be=20 misunderstood. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms000209050608070008090405 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UJFG8NBHHZvw for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9C61A01FE for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 04:37:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0SCbIiG007853; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:37:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from eduroam-pool7-0813.wlan.uni-bremen.de (eduroam-pool7-0813.wlan.uni-bremen.de [134.102.115.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ECE02AAA; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:37:17 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <52E79EDC.4000909@sics.se> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:37:11 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52E79EDC.4000909@sics.se> To: Ludwig Seitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] authenticated authorization X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:37:31 -0000 On 28 Jan 2014, at 13:13, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > It is not a term commonly used by IAM practitioners That may also be an advantage. Not having pre-conceived notions attached to a term is a good reason to = use it. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Tue Jan 28 05:48:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEEF1A03E0 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:48:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EbF49YsmcMd6 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECE41A03D9 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs39.server.lan ([172.19.170.91]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MOEAc-1WBQHl05bA-005dMG for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 14:48:25 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs39.server.lan with HTTP; Tue Jan 28 14:48:25 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Carsten Bormann" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 14:48:25 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <49D77499-362F-48EF-AC80-E04D9B110C56@tzi.org> References: , <49D77499-362F-48EF-AC80-E04D9B110C56@tzi.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:RmWk5P4LTmQkhiqXs8ONRYOEFYpdB+PKtpYtnNZ9prV CqyPNvVItMDJliquaZnorMYdjawP4BBEbaMjTUHjDgeScR/Y1v gXm2bHB70U8WidoqxQ3COJ5AQbua48hb2CwCDWkg2n3Z+ti2TE yhRCrJG26qNtDulQDlSRb+8wB24kMZTZOdWmwaYIbu2DNr1tUQ EIcZW/AVFuRfTCRMlBnu3Jbz1c0OIabqR4NFOhlvNFE+miRjxF UjyCbZQqrwdg7ghicIVqUr+y1NNOEc5+TbGnADCSlzD8c3VPNj vQBmac= Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] authenticated authorization X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:48:31 -0000
Hi Carsten, 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Januar 2014 um 12:08 Uhr
Von: "Carsten Bormann" <cabo@tzi.org>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
Cc: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] authenticated authorization
On 28 Jan 2014, at 12:37, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

> I don't quite understand why some of you are so exciting about the term.

It is a pretty good umbrella term for what ACE is doing.
 
[hannes] You may ask yourself the following question: Why do we need a new term for a problem that has been worked on for about 20 years? What is so special with IoT that nobody else had thought about this before? 
 

It is not supplying all those details (and it is not intended to).
Trying to “define” it (beyond what it obviously means) is unlikely to be a useful exercise.

Re the precision we can achieve:

I haven’t spent time to examine how security area charters look like; I do believe we generally need to supply some guide rails for the WG and the tasks it is supposed to do.
(The other objectives you mention for the charter are also important.)
 
Re doing our homework:

Yes, please.

However, the one item I don’t want to have in the charter is a multi-year effort to generate a consensus document examining all other protocols out there and convincingly making a case why they all never can be used for IoT.
 
[hannes] I also want to avoid a multi-year effort but I see various documents that pretty much re-invent what others had done before already. I have a hard time to complain about other efforts that re-invent the entire Internet from scratch when the folks around me do exactly the same. 
 

The ROLL working group was forced to do that, and it was a gigantic waste of time (didn’t even make it to RFC).
We need to watch out that people who want to quash IETF work in this space (for whatever reason) don’t manage to get in such a requirement. That would be worse than not getting chartered.
 
[hannes] The ROLL working group is an interesting case here and it would be interesting to hear about the deployment success. My impression (with my limited experience with ROLL) is that it aimed to solve a use case most people just don't care about. Hence, it does not really matter how long it took them to work on their documents. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
Grüße, Carsten
 
From Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com Tue Jan 28 16:58:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E2E1A0469 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:58:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B7SWYsh6cExL for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38AA1A043A for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDA63484; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:57:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:57:24 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.36) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:57:42 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.206]) by SZXEMA404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:57:38 +0800 From: Bert Greevenbosch To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "Olaf Bergmann" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPG//gHT4Xwiq9DU6bS1MjemHvdZqZTvOAgACn7lA= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:57:37 +0000 Message-ID: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.162.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:58:01 -0000 Hi G=F6ran, Olaf, Steffi, Indeed authorisation needs some credibility, and as such authorisation is g= ranted by the trusted authorisation server, there should be some proof of t= his. I don't think this means you need to authenticate the authorisation se= rver each time you receive an authorisation proof for a resource server / c= lient, you just need to verify that the authorisation was issued by a trust= ed authorisation server. Having said that, I wonder whether the possible broad interpretation of the= sentence "Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorisation" is really that troublesome. The sentence does however assume a certificate = based solution. That may be too early, as I could also imagine solutions wi= th some pre-shared secrets between AS and Resource Server/Client, and every= thing built on that. B.T.W., I'll be celebrating coming of the year of the horse starting tomorr= ow, so please forgive the delay of my future response(s). :-) Best regards, Bert > -----Original Message----- > From: G=F6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com] > Sent: 28 January 2014 16:54 > To: Olaf Bergmann; Bert Greevenbosch > Cc: Stefanie Gerdes; ace@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter >=20 > Hi Steffi, Bert, Olaf, >=20 >=20 > If I understand right it seems to me that just in is short mail thread > there are three different interpretations of this term. Let me try to > reformulate your definitions in my own words, please correct me if I=B9m > wrong: >=20 > 1. Authentication of authorisation server (and/or verification of > integrity of token) by the resource server (Steffi) >=20 > "authenticated authorization means that you know who issued the > authorization." >=20 > 'the term "authenticated authorization" means that > you know where the authorization came from.' >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > 2. Authentication of authorised client (and/or key confirmation) by the > resource server (Bert) >=20 > "it should be possible to bind > authorisation securely to the authorised party" >=20 >=20 > "For example, if the authorisation server can authenticate the client, > then it can provide the client with a secret known to itself and the > resource server. In this way, the resource server can verify that the > client was authenticated by the authorisation server." >=20 >=20 >=20 > 3. Mutual authentication of (and/or key confirmation by) authorised > client > and authorised resource server (Olaf) >=20 >=20 > "it should be mutual (i.e. not only the resource > server relies on the client to be authenticated by the authorization > server but also the client can be sure that the authorization only > works > with the right resource server)" >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Maybe I=B9ve misunderstood something, but if not - aren=B9t these > differences > slightly to big to say that this term is well defined? >=20 >=20 > Now, does it have to be well defined? The current charter includes the > following task: >=20 > "Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated > authorisation" >=20 >=20 > With the range of definitions above I can read in several > interpretations > of this task, for example: >=20 > 1. Define profiles of authorisation server certificates used for > authenticating the authorisation server by the resource server >=20 > 2. Define profiles of client certificates used for authenticating the > authorised client to the resource server >=20 > 3. Define profiles of client and server certificates for mutually > authenticating authorised client and authorised resource server. >=20 >=20 > Maybe this is the devil reading the bible. But I find it slightly > disturbing that I don=B9t really understand what is proposed. And I=B9d > rather > discuss content than terminology :-) >=20 >=20 > G=F6ran >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 28/01/14 09:06, "Olaf Bergmann" wrote: >=20 > >Hi, > > > >I agree completely with Bert's interpretation of the term -- possibly > >with the addition that it should be mutual (i.e. not only the resource > >server relies on the client to be authenticated by the authorization > >server but also the client can be sure that the authorization only > works > >with the right resource server). > > > >To me, the term "authenticated authorization" seems pretty intuitive > as > >others already said. I do not see the need for explicitly defining it > in > >the charter text. > > > >Best regards > >Olaf > > > >Bert Greevenbosch writes: > > > >> Hi Steffi, G=F6ran, > >> > >> I agree about the need for "authenticated authorisation", with > >> authentication in the sense that it should be possible to bind > >> authorisation securely to the authorised party. This could be done > by > >> e.g. a signature or a secret only known by to parties involved in > this > >> particular authorisation process. > >> > >> For example, if the authorisation server can authenticate the client, > >> then it can provide the client with a secret known to itself and the > >> resource server. In this way, the resource server can verify that > the > >> client was authenticated by the authorisation server. Another > solution > >> would be a signature/mac from the authorisation server over the > public > >> key of the client in the authorisation information. > >> > >> Perhaps the technical details should be part of a later discussion, > >> but for now I just want to indicate my interpretation of "authorised > >> authentication". > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Bert From gerdes@tzi.de Wed Jan 29 02:33:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 304971A014C for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 02:33:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O6fX-UC431wl for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 02:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6159E1A0229 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 02:33:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0TAWo3G002690; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:32:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.146] (p57A7DA48.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.167.218.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C01F4161; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:32:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:32:46 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bert Greevenbosch , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ran_Selander?= , Olaf Bergmann References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:33:07 -0000 Hi Bert, On 01/29/2014 01:57 AM, Bert Greevenbosch wrote: > Having said that, I wonder whether the possible broad interpretation of the sentence > > "Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorisation" > > is really that troublesome. The sentence does however assume a certificate based solution. That may be too early, as I could also imagine solutions with some pre-shared secrets between AS and Resource Server/Client, and everything built on that. Yes, I think we should consider both symmetric and asymmetric solutions. There was some discussion about this in Vancouver but we didn't come to an agreement. We favor a symmetric solution in DCAF but other people seem to assume that asymmetric crypto is better suited. Best regards, Steffi From paul@nymbus.net Wed Jan 29 08:20:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600B31A03DF for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:20:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S3RtAWYjUeuG for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:20:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-f179.google.com (mail-pd0-f179.google.com [209.85.192.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED401A0439 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f179.google.com with SMTP id q10so1874962pdj.10 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:20:07 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=Apfkml7/LbIzwz2lTegIBM9r2Xu4LYENBrvnoVMzsEg=; b=EFk6Nj4bjigTBegYNlSneUcIRhw6LwEh0QfnGNuxefk105owg51spqmRSC0XUsTGB8 zSSJjQ5DcVHu3rpCWjSztKNGjwQsLN7jZDwANsAAocpNrOiCBmppIlXP2l8uGSpHHwmW 6tkaZ9/JvzkFlZMinvUlZWo+pKZu7Q+ssyumhITf4khg9EbXgx8jLyptjdRuxwdOXnJr KXHIUPwwZX3H07wTDWHtKvK4ftomY6Spzk4a9x6Zs3sJ0O5umT8r7Va5/3dp8j4FMZn9 LLrNkpuwYObyXMsqRXvYBPsgEoIZSAhrVSsy+ry02Kwua7KwANemPPkxHA8gOXJsPS3k 7zZA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmz4/7ObrJnG4RAFM7cLifQX4hhUEyyJ907/SFNvmG+RSsAkfevd73sHMfKuUsRmKdk2fJW X-Received: by 10.68.171.99 with SMTP id at3mr8807076pbc.109.1391012407895; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nw11sm20045039pab.13.2014.01.29.08.20.06 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:20:07 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:20:06 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> To: Stefanie Gerdes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Bert Greevenbosch , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , Olaf Bergmann , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:20:16 -0000 On Jan 29, 2014, at 2:32 AM, Stefanie Gerdes wrote: > Hi Bert, >=20 > On 01/29/2014 01:57 AM, Bert Greevenbosch wrote: >> Having said that, I wonder whether the possible broad interpretation = of the sentence >>=20 >> "Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated = authorization" Certificates are unnecessary in constrained devices. Simple public key = authentication/establishment with ECDH or authentication with ECDSA do = not need third party certificates. >>=20 >> is really that troublesome. The sentence does however assume a = certificate based solution. That may be too early, as I could also = imagine solutions with some pre-shared secrets between AS and Resource = Server/Client, and everything built on that. >=20 > Yes, I think we should consider both symmetric and asymmetric = solutions. Symmetric solutions do not scale. =20 > There was some discussion about this in Vancouver but we didn't come = to > an agreement. We favor a symmetric solution in DCAF but other people > seem to assume that asymmetric crypto is better suited. Ubiquitous P2P authentication is not possible with symmetric keys alone. Paul >=20 > Best regards, > Steffi >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From bergmann@tzi.org Wed Jan 29 08:22:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FCF1A04D7 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:22:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F2DPdrCXRo87 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3221A04D4 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:22:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0TGM0PE009854; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:22:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-5.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1CA1F51F; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:22:00 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Paul Lambert References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:21:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Paul Lambert's message of "Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:20:06 -0800") Message-ID: <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:22:17 -0000 Paul Lambert writes: >> Yes, I think we should consider both symmetric and asymmetric solutions. > > Symmetric solutions do not scale. Why do you think that? Gruesse Olaf From cabo@tzi.org Wed Jan 29 10:37:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77CD1A02C0 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:37:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.051 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.051 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_ABOUTYOU=0.5, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9PyHANPpFOHK for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4CC1A00A5 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:37:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0TIbAoY002746; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 19:37:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.101] (p54890DDB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.13.219]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39D2B5D3; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 19:37:10 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 19:37:06 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <65AA41E3-518E-4500-BD0F-EBFF15C172CF@tzi.org> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> To: Paul Lambert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 18:37:16 -0000 On 29 Jan 2014, at 17:20, Paul Lambert wrote: >> Yes, I think we should consider both symmetric and asymmetric = solutions. >=20 > Symmetric solutions do not scale. =20 That depends on what kind of scalability you are after. For instance, they scale down really nicely. >> There was some discussion about this in Vancouver but we didn't come = to >> an agreement. We favor a symmetric solution in DCAF but other people >> seem to assume that asymmetric crypto is better suited. >=20 > Ubiquitous P2P authentication is not possible with symmetric keys = alone. Can you provide more details about your definition of "Ubiquitous P2P = authentication=94, and what you think the important objectives are here? (Interestingly, there are zero google hits for this combination of = words.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From georgehanes@hushmail.com Thu Jan 30 14:38:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EE21A04DA for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 14:38:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.323 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.323 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_HELO_NEUTRAL=0.112, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ncwOv21bv4l5 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 14:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.hushmail.com (smtp1a.hushmail.com [65.39.178.236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E6811A039C for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 14:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.hushmail.com (smtp1a.hushmail.com [65.39.178.236]) by smtp1.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E8E3402E6 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:03:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.hushmail.com (w8.hushmail.com [65.39.178.52]) by smtp1.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:03:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by smtp.hushmail.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 04D946018A; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:03:02 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 17:03:02 -0500 To: ace@ietf.org From: georgehanes@hushmail.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-Id: <20140130220303.04D946018A@smtp.hushmail.com> Subject: [Ace] Be cautious of this computer science conference X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:38:20 -0000 Be cautious of this computer science conference If you have any thought of attending the world’s biggest f-a-k-e conference in computer science http://www.world-academy-of-science.org you should visit any websites below https://sites.google.com/site/worlddump1 or https://sites.google.com/site/dumpconf https://sites.google.com/site/moneycomp1 https://sites.google.com/site/worlddump4 The organizer of this conference is H-amid A-rabnia http://www.cs.uga.edu/~hra a professor from University of Georgia, Athens, US. He already earned millions of dollars from the registration fee. He recently started a new conference CSCI due to his hunger for money http://www.americancse.org He did not reveal the reviews and reviewers' information for all the papers he received, despite repeated requests and challenges. The reason for his failure is there are no reviews and reviewers and he just cheated the research community for more than a decade by announcing that each draft paper is reviewed by two experts. We challenge him to publish these details at the conference website. Where are your experts? Where are your reviews? Soon he comes up with a story announcing that he lost all the information having reviews and reviewers because of computer crash or theft. DBLP stopped indexing these conferences since 2011 and displayed an explicit message; "The DBLP Advisory Board decided to discontinue indexing of this conference series". Visit http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/conf/biocomp/index.html as a sample. He was forced to remove his name, the university of Georgia name, and university of Georgia email address from the conference’s contact page because the University has banned him from doing that. Do not spoil your resume by publishing in this conference. Apologies for posting to multiple mailing lists. Spreading the news is the only way to stop this conference from harming innocent researchers. Respectfully, Many researchers cheated by these conferences From paul@nymbus.net Fri Jan 31 09:21:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86C21A0420 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:21:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YAiErbdKcXSz for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-f173.google.com (mail-pd0-f173.google.com [209.85.192.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325EC1A0416 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f173.google.com with SMTP id y10so4509689pdj.32 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:21:28 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=05BeWORKkPzgJbKfB1+GIadbenaMf/PM0mRfAvSdr08=; b=WciZ0CiYdlblT2hCjBvpSTRa10CssCA3N+BONt4v+OdhUAVsRIy85RFRwKJYZZdAjS rBeA4txDT3quLhECyxfk/d7hK31xOVfJzEoQ+CsmyFdwjAy/mqrUO2Wfh+VQiLfuDs4I XcTyI8+8NVWW0lpOGeiW1YeGUf5xBhPN/VxvnSTF65qjd4c+G0o4C43lkRGNqv/HZILJ ynp5911DYdaBk84tY4xfGwyw3Wqn15/XakQjQ4fuQJna1pIYw4WlOJZqYoBHeM5sVbHL f4CeH9vmNgxhvJcOcAVLA0sO2MTY6rWnoVohqby5cRRuPuRlq1Dym7oJUJA9yU7N8vnY vy8w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlFQdFCaLBBTFwxl61iaZdO0mkfMPDVWoxJiuOzmHtgTElZLqeOAA7UDS1qYqYjiUQhaX9a X-Received: by 10.66.27.72 with SMTP id r8mr21832156pag.62.1391188888640; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id om6sm29454924pbc.43.2014.01.31.09.21.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:21:26 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:45:11 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> To: Olaf Bergmann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , =?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 17:21:37 -0000 On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:21 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > Paul Lambert writes: >=20 >>> Yes, I think we should consider both symmetric and asymmetric = solutions. >>=20 >> Symmetric solutions do not scale. =20 Humm .. not quite accurate without qualification. Symmetric solutions do not scale easily in a distributed environment is = a more accurate statement. >=20 > Why do you think that? Clearly we have a cellular system based on authentication with secrets = that obviously scales. We have web based password authentication that = obviously scales. However, these always include central servers from = some provider of some variety that maintains the secret keys (often = password based).=20 Secure introduction in this context (one device to another) assumes some = common secret based intermediary. Secret based architectures tend to = assume an always-on Internet connection to get to secret based = authentication servers. Local symmetric key authentication is possible = with simple shared keys =85 (e.g. today=92s WPA2-Personal for APs). = This appears useful or small groups and home applications - but adds the = complexity of password based enrollment. Alternatives to password based = enrollment (WPS2, WPS3, etc) start to use public key exchanges to = improve the user experience. Simply starting with asymmetric based = identities in devices would greatly simplify the architecture allowing = better distributed/P2P interactions that are not dependant on server or = services. So I still hold to the original statement -> "Symmetric solutions do = not scale.=94 =85. but. =91scale=92 needs to be viewed in the context = of my view of the use cases. My requirements/use cases are for = ubiquitous P2P authentication/authorization. No authentication servers = can be involved. My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or = remote authentication server to read a new temperature sensor.=20 Paul >=20 > Gruesse > Olaf From paul@nymbus.net Fri Jan 31 21:06:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6B91A0530 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:06:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qq4GcxOnvq_y for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f47.google.com (mail-pa0-f47.google.com [209.85.220.47]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDA41A052F for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f47.google.com with SMTP id kp14so5176790pab.6 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:06:39 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=mtBozGI+QBy8tjJODy5Uu9RokMGOigMBAB4WZV5KhHY=; b=WNaaQm7i/Mh8+Ohpr06l5JRInGIkpqLwbmvZzvN2MxCABdSWdlGbtZRYREqPzX4rMs Al8k5fPe0uNh59EpEwEuy3hJzHr198EuGv4lS6AobtPlhtD5Y68TMcKjvdvzHE/So6FL ghWCxjUQIwjfuy6A4yWUGQmqHmOH82dVz29x7VdKA1TwwN8xSGlKn8AgG/WUSV4cpvu1 5NzZqpCwri2orsQpgumRf9qsWtLlL9763xh5ljpWL4ib6J5amVSIXqvTRx6VgaOBa1sk wC9vnrrmyMSR/fejH81ubII+hhlkKb4KEQxVXwYMJ7Yk+2i2NhcfuvJHggNP4g+H3vDo PkYA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmhzwRWEeRrXPlNlNhbQmlJSXY0kZ1kFAu4+6i446C8yPufoa/JGVN4YUWjlnIcKmrZB9dQ X-Received: by 10.67.3.68 with SMTP id bu4mr217675pad.144.1391231199004; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nu10sm33314358pbb.16.2014.01.31.21.06.38 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:06:38 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:06:37 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1AA762DA-8552-433F-B7D7-1E25102D8325@nymbus.net> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> To: Olaf Bergmann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , =?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 05:06:44 -0000 On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:21 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > Paul Lambert writes: >=20 >>> Yes, I think we should consider both symmetric and asymmetric = solutions. >>=20 >> Symmetric solutions do not scale. =20 Humm .. not quite accurate without qualification. Symmetric solutions do not scale easily in a distributed environment is = a more accurate statement. Clearly we have a cellular system based on authentication with secrets = that obviously scales. We have web based password authentication that = obviously scales. However, these always include central servers from = some provider of some variety that maintains the secret keys (often = password based).=20 Secure introduction in this context (one device to another) assumes some = common secret based intermediary. Secret based architectur tends to = assume an always-on Internet connection to get to secret based = authentication servers. =20 Management of =91secrets=92 is always=20 >=20 > Why do you think that? >=20 > Gruesse > Olaf From goran.selander@ericsson.com Fri Jan 31 23:22:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E76C1A0536 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 23:22:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YcTEXT5TIdn6 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 23:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F961A0534 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 23:22:51 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-dc-52eca0c746f3 Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D2.3B.23809.7C0ACE25; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 08:22:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.188]) by ESESSHC006.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.36]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 08:22:46 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Paul Lambert , Olaf Bergmann Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPHQ47atuQ7tby5kajZevRfLrVVJqb2BOAgAQqnAA= Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 07:22:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <41AA01370B20F44097D282EDB902660F@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupjkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Rvf4gjdBBseb5C2+f+thtmha3Mhk 8fvJClaLjRfvMlocft3G6MDq0XLkLavHkiU/mTymXbzM5rHt7Vdmj2mLMgNYo7hsUlJzMstS i/TtErgybk/+z1KwnrviV/Ny1gbGuZxdjJwcEgImEgc7JjFB2GISF+6tZ+ti5OIQEjjEKHHu wEYmCGcxo8Tk5TdZQKrYBFwlDjx4B9YhIuAicefbNjCbWaBMYv+Sn4wgtrCAkcS6I5uB4hxA NcYSeycxQ5RbSexe3A82hkVARWLziTNgcV4Bc4ndD05CLT7NLHHk9xZ2kASngJ3Erh0nweYz Al33/dQaqF3iEreezIe6WkBiyZ7zzBC2qMTLx/9YQWxRAT2Je4/mskDElSQalzxhhejVk7gx dQobhG0tcfr6YyhbW2LZwtdQBwlKnJz5hGUCo8QsJOtmIWmfhaR9FpL2WUjaFzCyrmJkz03M zEkvN9rECIzTg1t+q+5gvHNO5BCjNAeLkjjvh7fOQUIC6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFpTmpxYcYmTg4 pRoYnTP7cq1mCJg6neiv98nQWWBZwa/7bJ1nla3/HpmYbyYRy3tuHfzk4JUSsDZLLi5VMOBz 363gpB6dZglTP1d7EeM1Lcn9hf1WAnvyDD2mKCicuJ/rNy0q5FR4YFomw+GfQUUGB62KC/qm cx2aHLi4OidggXsJX/n2c5+s5iVIbarnbmq8osRSnJFoqMVcVJwIAPDApXShAgAA Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 07:22:54 -0000 Hi Paul On 29/01/14 17:45, "Paul Lambert" wrote: > My requirements/use cases are for ubiquitous P2P >authentication/authorization. No authentication servers can be involved. >My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote authentication >server to read a new temperature sensor. I=B9m interested in your use cases. - I assume only certain thermostats should have access to read the temperature sensor. Do you see any benefit in being able to later modify the access rights for who is able to request anything from the temperature sensor? (Do you ever want to do anything with the sensor expect ask having the same thermostats asking for temperature readings?) - Does your deployment phase allow the involvement of third node =B3establishing the ACL"? The scope of ACE is on a generic procedure for addressing access control in a potentially dynamic situation including e.g. changing of access rights, new clients of existing servers, authorisation of the action to change access rights, etc I believe it could potentially also include =B3provisioning of ACL=B2, i.e.= a procedure that can be deployed just once to define a static operational setting, in which case you don't need any subsequent involvement of a third node. Public keys can of course be very useful in a deployment setting but that doesn=B9t exclude the use of symmetric keys during an operational phase. G=F6ran