From cabo@tzi.org Sat Feb 1 01:34:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62391A1F66; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 01:34:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0OxaZxLu9Ss; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 01:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897381A04CD; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 01:34:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s119YR2S000249; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 10:34:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p54892C3C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.44.60]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93FC156B; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 10:34:26 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 10:34:24 +0100 To: dtls-iot@ietf.org, core , ace@ietf.org, "6lo@ietf.org WG" <6lo@ietf.org>, roll WG , lwip@ietf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Subject: [Ace] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF89, early draft version X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 09:34:36 -0000 A first draft version of the IETF88 agenda is out. ** THIS IS GOING TO CHANGE ** for conflict resolution,=20 so please don't make travel arrangements based on it. Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda built from that. =20 All times are UTC (UTC-0000). The Constrained Node/Network group meetings are nicely spread out over = the week. As usual, we have one conflict with oauth (on Tuesday); since much of = the CoRE security work is moving over to ACE this is survivable (we'll = do any remaining security-related CoRE work on Friday then). Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten MONDAY, March 3, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Buckingham APP appsawg Applications Area Working Group WG - = Combined with APPAREA 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Blenheim APP httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis WG Sovereign INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG 1520-1620 Afternoon Session II Viscount OPS eman Energy Management WG Sovereign SEC *** dice DTLS In Constrained Environments WG Palace C SEC httpauth Hypertext Transfer Protocol = Authentication WG 1630-1730 Afternoon Session III Palace C SEC httpauth Hypertext Transfer Protocol = Authentication WG TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Park Suite APP *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Sovereign INT homenet Home Networking WG Palace C SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG 1300-1400 Afternoon Session I Viscount INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG 1600-1830 Afternoon Session III Viscount INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Balmoral SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Sovereign TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG WEDNESDAY, March 5, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Balmoral APP *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments BOF Sovereign OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Blenheim APP httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis WG Viscount TSV taps Transport Services BOF 1520-1620 Afternoon Session II Balmoral INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Buckingham RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting Blenheim TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1630-1730 Afternoon Session III Balmoral INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Buckingham RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting THURSDAY, March 6, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Viscount TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Buckingham INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Sovereign OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Viscount SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Viscount RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG 1700-1830 Afternoon Session III Balmoral INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG Blenheim SEC jose Javascript Object Signing and Encryption = WG FRIDAY, March 7, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Richmond/Chelsea/Tower APP uta Using TLS in Applications WG Buckingham TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1150-1320 Afternoon Session 1 Buckingham APP *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Balmoral APP json JavaScript Object Notation WG From cabo@tzi.org Sat Feb 1 02:10:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66DA1A0532; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 02:10:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u5t_BoqUYC9Z; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 02:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE5C1A04CD; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 02:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s11AAdwS011188; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 11:10:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p54892C3C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.44.60]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8032C582; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 11:10:38 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 11:10:36 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: dtls-iot@ietf.org, core , ace@ietf.org, "6lo@ietf.org WG" <6lo@ietf.org>, roll WG , lwip@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Subject: Re: [Ace] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF89, early draft version X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2014 10:10:48 -0000 On 01 Feb 2014, at 10:34, Carsten Bormann wrote: > so please don't make travel arrangements based on it. ... and it is probably worth pointing out that right after the IETF on = Friday, there will be a plugtest close to the IETF hotel. If you are = interested in the constrained node/network space, have a look and = register soon (registration is free of charge). http://www.etsi.org/news-events/events/741-plugtests-2014-coap4 (The title focuses on CoAP, but there will be some 6LoWPAN = interoperability testing as well. Pick and choose.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten (PS.: The 6tisch people run their own interop specifically for 6tisch = during the IETF week, but everyone involved in 6tisch already knows = that.) From bergmann@tzi.org Mon Feb 3 05:49:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DC91A021F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 05:49:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9xyfXu7_MRjm for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 05:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCA751A035A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 02:52:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s13Aqe0g003180; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 11:52:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-5.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12EBDAE4; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 11:52:40 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Paul Lambert References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 11:52:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Paul Lambert's message of "Wed, 29 Jan 2014 08:45:11 -0800") Message-ID: <87mwi8v56w.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 13:49:37 -0000 Paul Lambert writes: > Secure introduction in this context (one device to another) assumes > some common secret based intermediary. Secret based architectures > tend to assume an always-on Internet connection to get to secret based > authentication servers. Local symmetric key authentication is > possible with simple shared keys =A1=AD (e.g. today=A1=AFs WPA2-Personal = for > APs). This appears useful or small groups and home applications - but > adds the complexity of password based enrollment. Alternatives to > password based enrollment (WPS2, WPS3, etc) start to use public key > exchanges to improve the user experience. Simply starting with > asymmetric based identities in devices would greatly simplify the > architecture allowing better distributed/P2P interactions that are not > dependant on server or services. > > So I still hold to the original statement -> "Symmetric solutions do > not scale.=A1=B1 =A1=AD. but. =A1=AEscale=A1=AF needs to be viewed in th= e context of my > view of the use cases. My requirements/use cases are for ubiquitous > P2P authentication/authorization. No authentication servers can be > involved. My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote > authentication server to read a new temperature sensor. Fair enough. This sounds like a reasonable use-case that should be looked at in this working group. Gruesse Olaf From ludwig@sics.se Mon Feb 3 05:58:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FDF1A0215 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 05:58:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TOWJr5szxcbr for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 05:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635F91A021A for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 05:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s13DoJts024476 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 14:57:56 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh332gr4j-1 for ; Mon, 03 Feb 2014 14:57:56 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6949140117 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 14:57:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52EFA064.2040802@sics.se> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 14:57:56 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87mwi8v56w.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <87mwi8v56w.fsf@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040903000705030308090901" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-03_01:2014-01-31,2014-02-03,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402030056 Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 13:58:34 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040903000705030308090901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/03/2014 11:52 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > Paul Lambert writes: > >> Secure introduction in this context (one device to another) assumes >> some common secret based intermediary. Secret based architectures >> tend to assume an always-on Internet connection to get to secret based= >> authentication servers. Local symmetric key authentication is >> possible with simple shared keys =E2=80=A6 (e.g. today=E2=80=99s WPA2-= Personal for >> APs). This appears useful or small groups and home applications - but= >> adds the complexity of password based enrollment. Alternatives to >> password based enrollment (WPS2, WPS3, etc) start to use public key >> exchanges to improve the user experience. Simply starting with >> asymmetric based identities in devices would greatly simplify the >> architecture allowing better distributed/P2P interactions that are not= >> dependant on server or services. >> >> So I still hold to the original statement -> "Symmetric solutions do >> not scale.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6. but. =E2=80=98scale=E2=80=99 needs to = be viewed in the context of my >> view of the use cases. My requirements/use cases are for ubiquitous >> P2P authentication/authorization. No authentication servers can be >> involved. My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote >> authentication server to read a new temperature sensor. > > Fair enough. This sounds like a reasonable use-case that should be > looked at in this working group. Just a few questions so I understand more of this case: Couldn't that be solved by provisioning static ACLs to the new=20 temperature sensors? If so I don't think ACE should spend time duplicating work done in OMA=20 LW M2M. Further: do you expect that the thermostat would be able to perform=20 asymmetric crypto operations? Seems rather heavy to me for a tiny little = mote. A temperature sensor would most likely be a class 0 device (by=20 lwig terminology). /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms040903000705030308090901 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fg4e85xpbx83 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 06:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296C61A05BB for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 04:32:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s13CW9c4017550; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 13:32:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-5.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC438C44; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 13:32:09 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Paul Lambert References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 13:32:09 +0100 Message-ID: <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 14:00:59 -0000 Paul Lambert writes: > Clearly we have a cellular system based on authentication with secrets > that obviously scales. We have web based password authentication that > obviously scales. However, these always include central servers from > some provider of some variety that maintains the secret keys (often > password based). > > Secure introduction in this context (one device to another) assumes > some common secret based intermediary. Secret based architectures > tend to assume an always-on Internet connection to get to secret based > authentication servers. Local symmetric key authentication is > possible with simple shared keys =A1=AD (e.g. today=A1=AFs WPA2-Personal = for > APs). This appears useful or small groups and home applications - but > adds the complexity of password based enrollment. Alternatives to > password based enrollment (WPS2, WPS3, etc) start to use public key > exchanges to improve the user experience. Simply starting with > asymmetric based identities in devices would greatly simplify the > architecture allowing better distributed/P2P interactions that are not > dependant on server or services. > > So I still hold to the original statement -> "Symmetric solutions do > not scale.=A1=B1 =A1=AD. but. =A1=AEscale=A1=AF needs to be viewed in th= e context of my > view of the use cases. My requirements/use cases are for ubiquitous > P2P authentication/authorization. No authentication servers can be > involved. My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote > authentication server to read a new temperature sensor. Fair enough. This sounds like a reasonable use-case that should be looked at in this working group. Gruesse Olaf From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Feb 3 09:27:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CBC71A017E for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 09:27:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.009 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rNd1GihXEY_6 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 09:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F9B1A0162 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 09:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id F13F52002F for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 13:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 80872647C9; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 12:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2A3647C8 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 12:27:49 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ace@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 17:27:57 -0000 <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign> hello BOF chairs, In discussions in 6tisch, we have come to the conclusion that we will want to leverage the ACE work. To that end, we would like to speak a bit about our specific requirements. I will be preparing two slides, which I will send prior to Feb 14. The written details of the requirements will find their way into draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture-01 (not yet posted) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works From paul@nymbus.net Mon Feb 3 10:10:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B381A01D7 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 10:10:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nNNA2-f2aTZ8 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 10:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f41.google.com (mail-pa0-f41.google.com [209.85.220.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1DD1A01C9 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 10:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id fa1so7418464pad.0 for ; Mon, 03 Feb 2014 10:10:28 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=ooAdioAI8XMKiO0joavYX/T9XAvSQghjWv3Ut4EsBpc=; b=bYwtFGlDspbA6jJ/n/IcJVjTey2HPfnty2UKK/ZPA1RgDPhwgIVcRF5ZxfLcuPGh2q ry0Z1IJl8zH/36ynwIkjyh1uHO7bNd+VAjDUhlbSh+4SGKwY3Y8YJHlTuoLr4iQ6OQpr qkWUZ4O7LtYayFgwpvYvpz0HdJnL21o9z+AlA7nvF7buGhYc6lh+ELROLM06HFjjfwFP Jz7xKf1HNxmM+oCWHjAspsV/YuiLEQrJNFvU52lSOe4DXBnuzOrKqLR9L3veORdP8x0+ MS9ZBM7QY1kcAtoAeGGGkZPh38OVw17VeHW9vQZTg65IuCpxq+GgViwVl+aAYZ7NGQZR 3dZw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlBUfOcFHLrRJZX7055sk5oJaV5ix0iozcDj4pRJUtkWtIzuvWdDOOvOemNqTl5aXt2ntqc X-Received: by 10.66.142.170 with SMTP id rx10mr39127169pab.117.1391451028188; Mon, 03 Feb 2014 10:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id un5sm150350347pab.3.2014.02.03.10.10.26 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Feb 2014 10:10:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <52EFA064.2040802@sics.se> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 10:10:27 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <94527E72-A911-4522-9A41-2EF080A8CBCD@nymbus.net> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87mwi8v56w.fsf@tzi.org> <52EFA064.2040802@sics.se> To: Ludwig Seitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 18:10:31 -0000 On Feb 3, 2014, at 5:57 AM, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > On 02/03/2014 11:52 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: >> Paul Lambert writes: >>=20 >>> Secure introduction in this context (one device to another) assumes >>> some common secret based intermediary. Secret based architectures >>> tend to assume an always-on Internet connection to get to secret = based >>> authentication servers. Local symmetric key authentication is >>> possible with simple shared keys =85 (e.g. today=92s WPA2-Personal = for >>> APs). This appears useful or small groups and home applications - = but >>> adds the complexity of password based enrollment. Alternatives to >>> password based enrollment (WPS2, WPS3, etc) start to use public key >>> exchanges to improve the user experience. Simply starting with >>> asymmetric based identities in devices would greatly simplify the >>> architecture allowing better distributed/P2P interactions that are = not >>> dependant on server or services. >>>=20 >>> So I still hold to the original statement -> "Symmetric solutions do >>> not scale.=94 =85. but. =91scale=92 needs to be viewed in the = context of my >>> view of the use cases. My requirements/use cases are for ubiquitous >>> P2P authentication/authorization. No authentication servers can be >>> involved. My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote >>> authentication server to read a new temperature sensor. >>=20 >> Fair enough. This sounds like a reasonable use-case that should be >> looked at in this working group. >=20 >=20 > Just a few questions so I understand more of this case: >=20 > Couldn't that be solved by provisioning static ACLs to the new = temperature sensors? Not sure while an ACL goes in the temperature sensor. > If so I don't think ACE should spend time duplicating work done in OMA = LW M2M. I do not see this specifciation in the open OMA documents - do you have = a pointer? If OMA is the solution, why bother with working in the IETF =85 :-) More seriously - I=92m only pointing out the mistake of continuing to = mandate authentication systems based on shared secrets when we should be = using public keys. Any data schemas from OMA would be orthogonal. >=20 > Further: do you expect that the thermostat would be able to perform = asymmetric crypto operations? Yes. > Seems rather heavy to me for a tiny little mote. No. ECC is already in smart cards. =20 > A temperature sensor would most likely be a class 0 device (by lwig = terminology). Yes - totally feasible to use asymmetric crypto in class 0 devices. = Actually makes such products easier to use. Paul >=20 > /Ludwig >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Ludwig Seitz, PhD > SICS Swedish ICT AB > Ideon Science Park > Building Beta 2 > Scheelev=E4gen 17 > SE-223 70 Lund >=20 > Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 > http://www.sics.se >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From ludwig@sics.se Tue Feb 4 00:22:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6281A0200 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 00:22:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GYPVibKJ6k-t for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 00:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290D31A018E for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 00:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1489K7b015580 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 09:22:13 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh332h1w6-1 for ; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 09:22:12 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BD99040116 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 09:22:12 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F0A334.4050306@sics.se> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 09:22:12 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms080400010005010600060902" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-04_02:2014-02-03,2014-02-04,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402030256 Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 08:22:20 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080400010005010600060902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/03/2014 06:27 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > <#secure method=3Dpgpmime mode=3Dsign> > > hello BOF chairs, > > In discussions in 6tisch, we have come to the conclusion that we will w= ant to > leverage the ACE work. To that end, we would like to speak a bit abou= t our > specific requirements. > > I will be preparing two slides, which I will send prior to Feb 14. > > The written details of the requirements will find their way into > draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture-01 > (not yet posted) > I'd be very happy to hear about your usecases and requirements. If you want I can try to integrate them into a future version of=20 draft-seitz-core-aa-usecases (soon to become something like=20 draft-seitz-ace-usecases). /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms080400010005010600060902 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wsqFDXv--hXY for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 03:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F371A00F3 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 03:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs10.server.lan ([172.19.170.61]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx002) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MEHXK-1W00cX45gO-00FVIo for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 12:57:01 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs10.server.lan with HTTP; Wed Feb 05 12:57:01 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Olaf Bergmann" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 12:57:01 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> , <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:VMU/mkEknpPZbcXSxrib3DXHMOaT6d65c9a/+jGhBiy alSKlgjtC27nhG5G1qAkQHzzrpGcubg+G9gr+i+Nt+F5krUnbt KQ7EjhFK3WvL5U2ERHl3MiLkIQFCRYakteTqVecZm0hmyH//vR xdHii6YcOBDnYZQkpL/UKnMUew3MIuoBG4CAdXaScA0vzm+8Id iBOxxYYdDfPAmn26CmLOBc1+D2Zs0t/DZr0GqaZtU4SuRJqr1d 4mb5Ec/7N1UavmzpyfYDCtsw2FQE/yDA7QWiLS0OPX1usDJn5S p+DtzY= Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , =?UTF-8?Q?=22G=C3=B6ran_Selander=22?= , Paul Lambert , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 11:57:05 -0000 I think we should avoid statements like "Symmetric keys don't scale" since = they are obviously wrong, as noted in the email further below. What you want to say is that you don't like some of the properties of symm= etric keys for your use case, for example the use of a trusted third party.= That's a completely different story.=20 Note, however, that all solutions submitted to the group I have seen so fa= r require a trusted third party (TTP) in some form. The difference is only = how often they have to contact that TTP.=20 You write: "My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote authen= tication server to read a new temperature sensor." If you allow everyone t= o read the temperature then that might be fine but you may want to =20 a) get a certificate (or symmetric key) at some point in time to the therm= ostat so that it can interact with the other devices,=20 b) you might want to have a story for revoking the key,=20 c) you might also want to have access control policies configured that tel= l you which device is allowed to access which resources,=20 d) you may not want to use the same keying material forever (for many reas= ons, including privacy, and performance). Hence, there is the question why the thermostat shouldn't talk to a truste= d third party. That party might even be in your local network, or in the sa= me administrative domain (e.g., enterprise network); it does not need to be= in the "cloud".=20 Furthermore, one should also think about how many solution variants this g= roup wants to develop. More variants means less interoperability and more c= omplexity.=20 Imagine if you have a version that uses symmetric cryptography and another= one that uses asymmetric cryptography. Obviously, a device implementing th= e symmetric variant will not be able to talk to a device that uses the asym= metric variant (unless that device implements both variants).=20 Ciao Hannes Gesendet: Montag, 03. Februar 2014 um 12:32 Uhr Von: "Olaf Bergmann" An: "Paul Lambert" Cc: "Stefanie Gerdes" , "Bert Greevenbosch" , "G=C3=B6ran Selander" , "ace@= ietf.org" Betreff: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Paul Lambert writes: > Clearly we have a cellular system based on authentication with secrets > that obviously scales. We have web based password authentication that > obviously scales. However, these always include central servers from > some provider of some variety that maintains the secret keys (often > password based). > > Secure introduction in this context (one device to another) assumes > some common secret based intermediary. Secret based architectures > tend to assume an always-on Internet connection to get to secret based > authentication servers. Local symmetric key authentication is > possible with simple shared keys =E2=80=A6 (e.g. today=E2=80=99s WPA2-Pe= rsonal for > APs). This appears useful or small groups and home applications - but > adds the complexity of password based enrollment. Alternatives to > password based enrollment (WPS2, WPS3, etc) start to use public key > exchanges to improve the user experience. Simply starting with > asymmetric based identities in devices would greatly simplify the > architecture allowing better distributed/P2P interactions that are not > dependant on server or services. > > So I still hold to the original statement -> "Symmetric solutions do > not scale.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6. but. =E2=80=98scale=E2=80=99 needs to be = viewed in the context of my > view of the use cases. My requirements/use cases are for ubiquitous > P2P authentication/authorization. No authentication servers can be > involved. My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote > authentication server to read a new temperature sensor. Fair enough. This sounds like a reasonable use-case that should be looked at in this working group. Gruesse Olaf _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Wed Feb 5 04:57:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF4C1A00FE for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 04:57:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z8OUIIYA1Yic for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 04:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E40C1A00DD for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 04:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan ([172.19.170.141]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx002) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0Lm9rr-1VcFJc1Yzx-00ZiS1 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:57:01 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan with HTTP; Wed Feb 05 13:57:01 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Michael Richardson" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 13:57:01 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:BTQEf9TpmCEnWCCpt21yjbURJhEdZWzioKOxtQRXXUN BhQSi/C21CqvwUUOg/yuxpjakoKmwmzQq0joRQjjt57WJTfZPK GMsqBzEKgy0GmmiwWFoCWn/I4DRCE9nAMgk0WXs3aCTVCxXEWP wp9MxSD7ewuG5UO3IKLrEV4hZsfjdgAaU6Fyzi0yzojM+SHWJ4 uUMZdPQ11a0csD4m9YP+17kJtt4JlRM3Iv30w6z5OzEKecU2YR yv94Whvmvk5ReIZqxK/m3SGm1oJ5ZoCI+z8971JyiJld4E3TpC q2rBv8= Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 12:57:04 -0000 Hi Michael,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 thanks for the note.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have not been following 6tisch nor have I looked at the=C2=A0802.15.4e s= pecification.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems, however, very useful to decouple the physical layer / link layer= from the higher layers.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The security architecture document =C2=A0 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture-0= 0 currently doesn't contain a lot of information.=20 Where are use cases document that are used to derive the requirements?=20 Ciao Hannes =C2=A0 Gesendet:=C2=A0Montag, 03. Februar 2014 um 17:27 Uhr Von:=C2=A0"Michael Richardson" An:=C2=A0ace@ietf.org Betreff:=C2=A0[Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF <#secure method=3Dpgpmime mode=3Dsign> hello BOF chairs, In discussions in 6tisch, we have come to the conclusion that we will want= to leverage the ACE work. To that end, we would like to speak a bit about our specific requirements. I will be preparing two slides, which I will send prior to Feb 14. The written details of the requirements will find their way into draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture-01 (not yet posted) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Wed Feb 5 05:36:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED74A1A012D for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 05:35:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NJvzT2nXX0ME for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 05:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBC21A0139 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 05:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan ([172.19.170.141]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx002) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKfbV-1WBrSM1A3j-0022EG for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:35:57 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan with HTTP; Wed Feb 05 14:35:57 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:35:57 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:qpiSVA86hWzeNOnMhxxHOLhnVOG0uZj0pL1wz0sYUn2 fTuEB15f1oAwCsD1Mi6iw77gXFcrnjeZOL43Y6ACHhIro+y5Wq QKD7ERvQnTPEz/RdRdLwtcFGDjkEVWTdHllrZ+ubL6r/nOwcsG UA8sxLZ92O5yBKI0C6vXFQrom5BDcUDIzjzJTEutBAtSC28iy3 U9uTllCslP8URgXPw1ev22qVhHijEqfd6sbS2qByNuvyg1d/t+ y90PcVMOWUwxjIFIEYuAvIN08YLhI9rBXv25zAKPqASjopCgyg nkoogg= Subject: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:36:00 -0000
Hi all,
 
I think that draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases is (from my reading) the most suitable document for the BOF discussions related to the use cases. 
 
Hence, I was wondering whether it would make sense to update draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases to update the document to 
 
a)  update the existing use cases and to add more use cases, 
b) change the abstract, title and the introduction (*)
c) submit the document as draft-seitz-ace-use-cases-00 to associate it to this effort. 
 
(*): The use cases do not have anything to do with CoAP as well. Even without CoAP the use cases should still be valid. There is no need to mention CORE (the working group) nor the CoAP protocol anywhere. 
I would also remove the references to DTLS, and the JOSE work since they are misplaced in a use case/requirements document. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
From cabo@tzi.org Wed Feb 5 06:01:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56DE11A0147 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 06:01:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M6RsT2VFjudf for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 06:01:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5BD1A0134 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 06:01:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s15E1WCg010904; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:01:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.101] (p54893DF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.61.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C3CC0C45; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:01:31 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:01:30 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:01:37 -0000 On 05 Feb 2014, at 14:35, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: > (*): The use cases do not have anything to do with CoAP as well. Even = without CoAP the use cases should still be valid. There is no need to = mention CORE (the working group) nor the CoAP protocol anywhere.=20 > I would also remove the references to DTLS, and the JOSE work since = they are misplaced in a use case/requirements document.=20 I would like to offer my strong opposition to widening the scope of ACE = uncontrollably. ACE is about CoRE. (Two protocols CoRE uses are CoAP and DTLS.) Trying to redact this from the use cases document doesn=92t do any good. Rather, I=92d try to anchor the use cases (and in particular any = technical requirements we derive from them) even more explicitly in what = we are trying to achieve here. For instance, it is rather important to = think about which parts of the use cases already are covered by e.g. = today=92s protocols for the Browser web and which actually do need ACE = work. Those that do should use what we have and not independently = invent another parallel world just to be =93orthogonal". Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Wed Feb 5 06:59:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC111A0189 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 06:59:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JMLktJ2ETFyE for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 06:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094841A0176 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 06:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan ([172.19.170.141]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MAAjv-1W4mQ020kL-00BIHu for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:59:49 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan with HTTP; Wed Feb 05 15:59:49 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:59:49 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:CzYlDvekQn9/S280Kyen8GZiwTfqg3vd60uGs2TBqRY n/ojDsUFVcd2VYKvtho8Le70Q3kMxRWze2KUfiwfcldzj8wVvW zDbsj38lJewTwxiBLivXqdugmhQCbjORVZWQrEEJhVTn193orV JFZNR7Cq8OHJgIG4+Mof0I6Idu4jWmanbLdlJms12/mkoqasyv NsXNV+Wf5jFEO8tad4sr+4V7AfaPy2Z0cDEe16+aupZ50VMUs3 LNSJSiZxLsCcxgjTw0O/+mFUOzvsF6nLSbOH4QZa8L4IZMzNRL EWqjr8= Subject: [Ace] Tutorials X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:59:52 -0000
Hi all, 
 
you may have noticed that I see value in re-using existing IETF work (or to at least see whether prior work can be re-used). 
I thought that we could try something new and therefore I approached a few folks and asked them whether they are willing to give a tutorial to the folks in the group. 
In particular, I have asked the following persons: 
* Thomas Hardjono: Kerberos
* Justin Richer: OAuth
* Eve Maler: UMA
* Sean Turner: PKI/certificates 
 
There will also be two tutorials on the Sunday before the IETF meeting, namely one about the AAA architecture, and another one about engineering privacy into protocols. The AAA tutorial will be given by Lionel Morand, and I do the privacy tutorial. 
 
I will send information about these tutorials to the list ASAP. Note that I will have to take the availability of the speakers into account (as you can imagine). 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
From ludwig@sics.se Wed Feb 5 08:51:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BCF01A0128 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 08:51:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ksUxBXOcddhq for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 08:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767091A014E for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 08:51:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s15GnbOp020910 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 17:51:47 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh332k75b-1 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:51:46 +0100 Received: from [192.168.30.62] (outeduroam.fbk.eu [217.77.82.132]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 646E840116 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 17:51:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F26C1B.4020201@sics.se> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:51:39 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000904090007060500020500" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-05_06:2014-02-05,2014-02-05,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402050082 Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:51:51 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000904090007060500020500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/05/2014 02:35 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi all, > I think that draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases is (from my reading) the mos= t > suitable document for the BOF discussions related to the use cases. > Hence, I was wondering whether it would make sense to > update draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases to update the document to > a) update the existing use cases and to add more use cases, > b) change the abstract, title and the introduction (*) > c) submit the document as draft-seitz-ace-use-cases-00 to associate it > to this effort. > (*): The use cases do not have anything to do with CoAP as well. Even > without CoAP the use cases should still be valid. There is no need to > mention CORE (the working group) nor the CoAP protocol anywhere. > I would also remove the references to DTLS, and the JOSE work since the= y > are misplaced in a use case/requirements document. > Ciao > Hannes Hannes, I'm in process of updating the draft, a.) I have solicited use cases from various persons in order to get=20 closer to the industry needs, but I haven't got a lot of input yet.=20 Hint, hint ... b.) I think it should be adapted to ACE, I do agree with Carsten that we = shouldn't move the focus too much away from CoAP (although I'd=20 personally like to talk about object security as an alternative to DTLS, = if there are any buyers) c.) I'll try to get it ready before the cutoff date, I take it that it's = ok to submit drafts linked to efforts that are at BoF stage. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms000904090007060500020500 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8WbGnGCtU5LD for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC381A018E for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737D520033 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 13:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 3DAB4647C9; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 12:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2676163B88 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 12:04:58 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "ace\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> , <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:05:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > You write: "My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote > authentication server to read a new temperature sensor." If you allow > everyone to read the temperature then that might be fine but you may > want to=20=20=20 I just want to remind that "scaling" is often confused with "can grow reall= y big". when really, it means that a service/protocol/etc. can be sized for both small and big deployments. Certificate Authorities do not scale. They are good for medium to very lar= ge entities, but fail to accomodate the "small", and concern about this failure is what people are reacting to. (It's not strictly a protocol problem, so much as an implementation failure. There are significant market issues here as well) > d) you may not want to use the same keying material forever (for many > reasons, including privacy, and performance).=20 I actually think that this is perhaps the only useful concern. And when you write "rekeying", you actually need to think: "I just bought a house. I need to change the keys". Most people think about the meatspace keys, but we wi= ll need to think about the other keys too. > Hence, there is the question why the thermostat shouldn't talk to a > trusted third party. That party might even be in your local network, = or > in the same administrative domain (e.g., enterprise network); it does > not need to be in the "cloud".=20=20 The question is: what is the market for this device. Who is going to sell, maintain, and profit from it? While this is slightly outside the IETF mandate, it is important to ask: are the people who are going to make that device present in this BOF/WG list? We ask that question before we begin standardizing routing protocols.... > Imagine if you have a version that uses symmetric cryptography and > another one that uses asymmetric cryptography. Obviously, a device > implementing the symmetric variant will not be able to talk to a devi= ce > that uses the asymmetric variant (unless that device implements both > variants).=20=20 We do have some protocols (IKEv2 comes to mind) where the authentication in each direction does not have to be the same. While I know that TLS can for= go client authentication, I'm unclear if it can authenticate using a different mechanism than the server. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUvJvOYqHRg3pndX9AQJ7aAP/V7w6KuXwgCQEBxgv2ql+7/LTwKbatcz8 iuaJ9jIbLjYOMiCw9sFDyD4KYmJ0Z0l9oZm6QRK4gfdU17V4QUdldK9SAcGB6vfa LPr6FGJ24G/m5PuaN1CNK7YOpr0swYXtrwMa4H+LHwzFgAeaoKte22shjTIoinhg AIS+Y/qon8s= =2kP8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Wed Feb 5 09:05:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F9B1A01CF for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:05:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zwunfkJPldUV for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925111A01CB for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan ([172.19.170.141]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx002) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MaXUl-1VvtLF1Nvd-00K7a4 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 18:05:04 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs57.server.lan with HTTP; Wed Feb 05 18:05:04 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Ludwig Seitz" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:05:04 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <52F26C1B.4020201@sics.se> References: , <52F26C1B.4020201@sics.se> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:SSCP1eGzmNE1NQIfeUN8uFp1mpZhTwyi6lo0r5yiNTA sUws4JpLS4g9Q6hDPF0lpxyKv6bMZEZBjN11WHPwN1gHXkgn+n gRmgWjgtda8zIZ+q59K0K0IDRpGAP+jkn7a1dsL7/cmS/THMcs 7g7hStmWIg6sRbuN6SN1iGUXMP+OUWlrUKk0JSSWpjMykNkV6h +CcKCDLm2sJmdUVyfTyMQOruExF8QQRWPOoZYxTXr/A5y30aHW qXWcujr9cHC+NCYhrj+G5AP3HHZQwlGgsuJRkXhasyLraA8AfE Dz2fq0= Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:05:07 -0000
Hi Ludwig, 
 
comments below.  
 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 05. Februar 2014 um 16:51 Uhr
Von: "Ludwig Seitz" <ludwig@sics.se>
An: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases
On 02/05/2014 02:35 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi all,
> I think that draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases is (from my reading) the most
> suitable document for the BOF discussions related to the use cases.
> Hence, I was wondering whether it would make sense to
> update draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases to update the document to
> a) update the existing use cases and to add more use cases,
> b) change the abstract, title and the introduction (*)
> c) submit the document as draft-seitz-ace-use-cases-00 to associate it
> to this effort.
> (*): The use cases do not have anything to do with CoAP as well. Even
> without CoAP the use cases should still be valid. There is no need to
> mention CORE (the working group) nor the CoAP protocol anywhere.
> I would also remove the references to DTLS, and the JOSE work since they
> are misplaced in a use case/requirements document.
> Ciao
> Hannes


Hannes,

I'm in process of updating the draft,

a.) I have solicited use cases from various persons in order to get
closer to the industry needs, but I haven't got a lot of input yet.
Hint, hint ...
 
[hannes] Well. You are one of the document authors and so it is always challenging to expect others to do the work ....
;-)


b.) I think it should be adapted to ACE, I do agree with Carsten that we
shouldn't move the focus too much away from CoAP (although I'd
personally like to talk about object security as an alternative to DTLS,
if there are any buyers)
[hannes] This work is not a competitor to DTLS. It does something different. You also need to explain me why the use cases depend on CoAP. I don't get it. 

c.) I'll try to get it ready before the cutoff date, I take it that it's
ok to submit drafts linked to efforts that are at BoF stage.
 
[hannes] Thanks. Get it submitted ASAP. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
/Ludwig


--
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
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From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Feb 5 09:12:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085451A00B6 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:12:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.009 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FoLsws4venSl for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8441A004B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B19A20033 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 13:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id F0AD2647C9; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 12:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D730A63B88 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 12:11:58 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ace@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:12:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > I have not been following 6tisch nor have I looked at the=C2=A0802.15= .4e specification.=C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > It seems, however, very useful to decouple the physical layer / link = layer from the higher layers.=C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > The security architecture document =C2=A0 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architect= ure-00 > currently doesn't contain a lot of information.=20 No, that's just an empty document at present. The summary of use cases: 1) authorization for a mote to join the network 2) authorization for a PCE to program a time slot schedule into the mote One thing we have discussed, and which has precedence from ISA100/WirelessHart is that the credentials to join the network are provided as a part of the mote being programmed. That is, the detailed security credentials are just yet another detail that a central authority (like the = "PCE")=20 is going to program into the device. We would like to be able to either create a single (D)TLS session (with a saved rfc5077 ticket), and keep that around for further updates to both L2 and L3 configuration. (Likely using COAP/BSON or some such) =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUvJw3oqHRg3pndX9AQLcUQP6AlQO6BgaWceQ1a+xGh8ZFByLUm+KdyaD vqOzRGeKyb/Un6UNtQLpii0Y+iNostqDIAp3sxz0plvZGL3N/DdLhbl+C4BE00av e2mJRJB1ybpt7Gc/9765nj1VYtV/PFLSIKIta2ycTgN4nzmvL9SNFDpp2a0N/eqr lHL0/BiPaII= =+/7H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From cabo@tzi.org Wed Feb 5 09:18:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56901A014B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UuTvoUEGWrG5 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF511A00F7 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:18:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s15HIdQB006780; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:18:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.101] (p54893DF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.61.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 31BF0E0A; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:18:39 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <52F26C1B.4020201@sics.se> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:18:37 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <414AB3D6-9A5D-4BDA-A5AA-D2E9AE8E3C36@tzi.org> References: <52F26C1B.4020201@sics.se> To: Ludwig Seitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:18:44 -0000 On 05 Feb 2014, at 17:51, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > I'd personally like to talk about object security as an alternative to = DTLS, if there are any buyers) Clearly, we have several use cases that need security beyond CoAP = proxies. In recent discussions here, components we might use came to mind = including: =97 tunnel a TLS handshake through the proxies. Since we are already = examining carrying elements of the DTLS handshake in CoAP transactions = for performance reasons in direct DTLS connections, that mode comes as = a surprisingly cheap way to get keys. =97 use OAuth constructions to carry keying material down from the = Browser web. =97 use JOSE to package objects, either as-is (JSON) or in a CBOR = variant. I haven=92t made up my mind what the role of ACE would be in all this. But it should be thought through. Does this need to be in the initial charter? Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From ludwig@sics.se Wed Feb 5 22:27:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737FB1A02B2 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 22:27:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KLP2n64lEp7B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 22:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCC11A037B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 22:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s166ROdf032281; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 07:27:24 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh332khp0-1; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 07:27:23 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.89] (unknown [95.171.61.21]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4316D40116; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 07:27:23 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F32B3D.7060009@sics.se> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 07:27:09 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hannes Tschofenig References: , <52F26C1B.4020201@sics.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050102020709090502090409" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-06_02:2014-02-06,2014-02-06,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402050224 Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 06:27:31 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050102020709090502090409 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/05/2014 06:05 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: [snip] > > Hannes, > > I'm in process of updating the draft, > > a.) I have solicited use cases from various persons in order to get > closer to the industry needs, but I haven't got a lot of input yet. > Hint, hint ... > [hannes] Well. You are one of the document authors and so it is always > challenging to expect others to do the work .... > ;-) > Why do you interpret this in the least favorable way, is that an old=20 hands IETF experience? ;-) Allow me to clarify: I'm offering people with a good industry use case=20 to write it into the draft for them, if they provide me with enough=20 detail. I'm also willing to let them do the work themselves if they insis= t. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms050102020709090502090409 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UTTV2e4rLN3h for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 23:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9491A0083 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 23:55:11 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-88-52f33fde63be Received: from ESESSHC017.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 8E.17.23809.EDF33F25; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:55:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.188]) by ESESSHC017.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.69]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:55:09 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Michael Richardson , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF Thread-Index: AQHPIQVJQ46p4PCU6kaJA6OW6o3r2JqmkLeAgABHOwCAAQeFAA== Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 07:55:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <19A9BEC090B9294CA9AB4F1D49C0A7C9@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje49+89BBocblCy+f+thtug51M/u wOSxZMlPJo+WOXuYA5iiuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0SuDIWLlrNVnCBv2LvtU3MDYw7eLoYOTkkBEwk vu48wgRhi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI4BCjxLMLsxghnMWMEmtvLGIDqWITcJU48OAdWIeIgK/EgrO7 GUFsYQEjia6NCxgh4sYSZ69PZYOwnSSmfj8MFOfgYBFQkWhZZARi8gqYS7y6UQUxfjajxIdL C1lAyjkFdCQun+gBG8MIdND3U2vAVjELiEvcejIf6lABiSV7zjND2KISLx//YwWxRQX0JO49 mssCEVeSWLH9EiNEr57EjalT2CBsa4mGeZ3MELa2xLKFr8FsXgFBiZMzn7BMYBSfhWTdLCTt s5C0z0LSPgtJ+wJG1lWM7LmJmTnp5UabGIExdXDLb9UdjHfOiRxilOZgURLn/fDWOUhIID2x JDU7NbUgtSi+qDQntfgQIxMHp1QD40xmdf+eeotZdZpieXUWDNyxvzsU10mHnIzU2Soqfs46 wv9ehL1e1/8Hl59NOVB95NX/NAUphsg1NV1Zmicj2XYbTdie5ZxfYfdA7InZac+p184c35V4 VG3mVba2mClenU7z8n/+/Ohya3Pk28LVhR5LZpW1CsuInBDS+FJ5Q+LowWe6HcIHlViKMxIN tZiLihMBoo8y+HcCAAA= Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 07:55:14 -0000 Hi Michael, I=B9m not familiar with the setting, a few questions below On 05/02/14 18:11, "Michael Richardson" wrote: > >Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > I have not been following 6tisch nor have I looked at the 802.15.4e >specification.=20 > > =20 > > It seems, however, very useful to decouple the physical layer / >link layer from the higher layers. > > =20 > > The security architecture document > >=20 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture-0 >0 > > currently doesn't contain a lot of information. > >No, that's just an empty document at present. > >The summary of use cases: > 1) authorization for a mote to join the network What credentials, if any, are assumed in the mote at the time of enforcing the authorisation decision? > 2) authorization for a PCE to program a time slot schedule into the >mote Is this PCE fixed, or is there any change of PCE or other node that needs to be authorised to access the mote during its lifetime? > >One thing we have discussed, and which has precedence from >ISA100/WirelessHart is that the credentials to join the network are >provided >as a part of the mote being programmed. That is, the detailed security >credentials are just yet another detail that a central authority (like >the "PCE")=20 >is going to program into the device. Relating to the question above, what credentials, if any, are assumed before the programming of the mote? Does the use case match one of the assumptions in=20 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00105.html ? G=F6ran > >We would like to be able to either create a single (D)TLS session (with a >saved rfc5077 ticket), and keep that around for further updates to both L2 >and L3 configuration. (Likely using COAP/BSON or some such) > >--=20 >Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > > > From dromasca@avaya.com Thu Feb 6 01:14:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C571A0083 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:14:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.434 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.434 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aH5navjYoEAQ for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com (p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com [135.11.29.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5B11A022D for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:14:28 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aq4NAKVR81KHCzI1/2dsb2JhbABZgkgjIThXgwGlYJYPGG8WdIIlAQEBAQMSEQpHFQIBBgINBAEDAQELCxIDAgICMBQDBggCBAESCAEZh2MBDJEekTqKQ6EiF45JNwEKgmU1gRQEnxuLMYMtgio X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,792,1384318800"; d="scan'208,217";a="48381011" Received: from unknown (HELO p-us1-erheast.us1.avaya.com) ([135.11.50.53]) by p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 06 Feb 2014 04:14:26 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO AZ-FFEXHC04.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.58.14]) by p-us1-erheast-out.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 06 Feb 2014 04:01:47 -0500 Received: from AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com ([fe80::6db7:b0af:8480:c126]) by AZ-FFEXHC04.global.avaya.com ([135.64.58.14]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 10:14:25 +0100 From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: Hannes Tschofenig , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Tutorials Thread-Index: AQHPIoLvKpUEp4sKyECNq6unfsiZlpqn8ltg Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 09:14:24 +0000 Message-ID: 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01:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D9B1A0083 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan ([172.19.170.94]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LpAT4-1VYxui1Jx6-00esbg for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 10:16:44 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Feb 06 10:16:44 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 10:16:44 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA2E3EEE4D@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> References: , <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA2E3EEE4D@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:702hJX310MtLEJ14phE9Lw/VIypTORecl+1tTLXXcSa LeHqCXNumwpiNJ/UWuQ/QTcPG4NIx837Wb7Qgv6QAi9j7yYgqB 7vMtAU4dcoZS9oLF/KdtmigsaY6dGSiCSY9VdbvyAtDTWIoDVp ClpVx89SG/NBvgzJHW4QaKYv550Ly8iFXefWDf0Vl44ZT93K20 hvZ2M/+3/kCgSvRYn2NwMzKC0GXFvwxT/qTOPeP6bbHfhFB5k/ 04CVm+dwF9IW8ULBl3QO0ZBdBKarc6bOED/lP8+5/2fxOq8KxE 9nNrfM= Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Tutorials X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 09:16:48 -0000
Hi Dan, 
 
yes, that's unfortunate but maybe we can create a recording of them. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 06. Februar 2014 um 09:14 Uhr
Von: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: RE: [Ace] Tutorials

Unfortunately the privacy and AAA tutorials are scheduled one against the other according to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/89/tutorials.html. I am not sure if anything can be done about this at this stage.

 

Regards,

 

Dan

 

 

From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: יום ד 05 פברואר 2014 17:00
To: ace@ietf.org
Subject: [Ace] Tutorials

 

Hi all, 

 

you may have noticed that I see value in re-using existing IETF work (or to at least see whether prior work can be re-used). 

I thought that we could try something new and therefore I approached a few folks and asked them whether they are willing to give a tutorial to the folks in the group. 

In particular, I have asked the following persons: 

* Thomas Hardjono: Kerberos

* Justin Richer: OAuth

* Eve Maler: UMA

* Sean Turner: PKI/certificates 

 

There will also be two tutorials on the Sunday before the IETF meeting, namely one about the AAA architecture, and another one about engineering privacy into protocols. The AAA tutorial will be given by Lionel Morand, and I do the privacy tutorial. 

 

I will send information about these tutorials to the list ASAP. Note that I will have to take the availability of the speakers into account (as you can imagine). 

 

Ciao
Hannes

 

From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Thu Feb 6 01:44:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61781A036C for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:44:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AuDTwPIklqGo for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F301A00A9 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan ([172.19.170.94]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LtTty-1VCxPr2mc0-010vo6 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 10:44:27 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Feb 06 10:44:27 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Carsten Bormann" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 10:44:27 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <414AB3D6-9A5D-4BDA-A5AA-D2E9AE8E3C36@tzi.org> References: <52F26C1B.4020201@sics.se>, <414AB3D6-9A5D-4BDA-A5AA-D2E9AE8E3C36@tzi.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:VY00ycEy9u4zodEqkZjbmBR7rlqp06VR4XLD58gMyh/ RoGauzlrs0n2BnpqGgcklVMEOsHWMilCanSZyVZZ3TJR0T4Elr 9vVbUMnM8NfZU+euxZsWjmErtn7PTFl7ccxGseio+6gVtMfPUr +9BqWK25ZDp41K1sAHQ6vUuuoQc4lawP33KRNx9VQ90Y8Y3KWs V3JlWQps1Wx9ImknffbMZpbFM0QouMr3Z4MwBP5MDc98MeyIGO 37kaTKCXs+KSFIA2dnjLTOBcC6Kkkx1PrmZ7cmAXIhu4BXWE/X uhWmuc= Cc: Ludwig Seitz , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 09:44:31 -0000
I think it is a good question for a potential working group to think about the layer at which security is provided. 
In OAuth, for example, we have initially focused very much on re-using transport layer security since otherwise you replicate the functionality again at the high layer. 
Kerberos, as another example, does not follow that design. 
 
We would have to make a decision about this fairly early on because it has substantial implications. 
 
I will add it to the open issue list. 
 
I am not sure I would add these type of things into the charter. The charter is supposed to tell on a high level what the groups is trying to do; it is a sort of marketing material but not a design document. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 05. Februar 2014 um 17:18 Uhr
Von: "Carsten Bormann" <cabo@tzi.org>
An: "Ludwig Seitz" <ludwig@sics.se>
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases
On 05 Feb 2014, at 17:51, Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se> wrote:

> I'd personally like to talk about object security as an alternative to DTLS, if there are any buyers)

Clearly, we have several use cases that need security beyond CoAP proxies.

In recent discussions here, components we might use came to mind including:

— tunnel a TLS handshake through the proxies. Since we are already examining carrying elements of the DTLS handshake in CoAP transactions for performance reasons in direct DTLS connections, that mode comes as a surprisingly cheap way to get keys.
— use OAuth constructions to carry keying material down from the Browser web.
— use JOSE to package objects, either as-is (JSON) or in a CBOR variant.

I haven’t made up my mind what the role of ACE would be in all this.
But it should be thought through.

Does this need to be in the initial charter?

Grüße, Carsten

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From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Thu Feb 6 01:50:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF981A0385 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:50:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i7nepiKR6mGu for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FD41A022D for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan ([172.19.170.94]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0Me6KG-1Vs0Qe3V8A-00Pscu for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 10:50:02 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Feb 06 10:50:02 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Carsten Bormann" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 10:50:02 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: , X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:wGoYlFX8KSZbqE3b4LCI1Pm5IqC/mSqZYf7ZDtKiSg7 2tT94Pq1fef6In6Wp5707/1IHEuaE/M4HBQ6o8LrmTr4J3m2Bo VQ51g5qhyeptqr8BKWgY9w7f929Ne/donp+ftZyWAJKN4EQh1C TOnrVRJrzim6Da/XQRMlaTBcQI42yUSNp7O7d7sob3aJx6cJ1h zurdA4RpjKyLyQCYObA8YdXFg8nnxfc/PJNcFuBF2J/Qc48cfH iemWPFw3dUwmUzffuiStMRSTxB5YSH0TLZHYbPtVaBKG0XEOeo p6HkEM= Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 09:50:06 -0000
Hi Carsten, 
 
I appreciate your excitment about CoAP but if you read through the document then you will see that it is 
a) is a use case and requirements document, and 
b) stays at a much higher level: E.g., John uses a heart rate monitor and wants to give access to the data to a medical team but not to an insurance company. Jane delegates access to her house to Jeffrey temporarily. 
 
The CORE and CoAP relationship is only of historical relevance. 
 
I suggest not to confuse the reader. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 05. Februar 2014 um 14:01 Uhr
Von: "Carsten Bormann" <cabo@tzi.org>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
Cc: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases
On 05 Feb 2014, at 14:35, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

> (*): The use cases do not have anything to do with CoAP as well. Even without CoAP the use cases should still be valid. There is no need to mention CORE (the working group) nor the CoAP protocol anywhere.
> I would also remove the references to DTLS, and the JOSE work since they are misplaced in a use case/requirements document.

I would like to offer my strong opposition to widening the scope of ACE uncontrollably.

ACE is about CoRE.

(Two protocols CoRE uses are CoAP and DTLS.)

Trying to redact this from the use cases document doesn’t do any good.

Rather, I’d try to anchor the use cases (and in particular any technical requirements we derive from them) even more explicitly in what we are trying to achieve here. For instance, it is rather important to think about which parts of the use cases already are covered by e.g. today’s protocols for the Browser web and which actually do need ACE work. Those that do should use what we have and not independently invent another parallel world just to be “orthogonal".

Grüße, Carsten
 
From cabo@tzi.org Thu Feb 6 02:03:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17311A0200 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 02:03:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nFSad2sxvFDn for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 02:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470561A00B0 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 02:03:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s16A3DAD009298; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 11:03:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p54890856.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.8.86]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A89615E; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 11:03:13 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 11:03:11 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: , To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 10:03:23 -0000 On 06 Feb 2014, at 10:50, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: > a) is a use case and requirements document, and=20 Of course, but requirements for what? Use cases should focus on those that make use of communicating = constrained devices. Any technical requirements derived from those use cases should be based = on the assumption that we will be able to make use of components such as = IP, CoAP, and DTLS. The IP part may seem obvious here because this is the IETF. I just want = to make sure it=92s as obvious, from reading the document, that we = assume the presence of CoAP and DTLS. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net Thu Feb 6 03:08:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E964C1A02F6 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:08:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 457otPbaAVCr for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E461A00C4 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan ([172.19.170.94]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0LbOHk-1VV7JM0BMg-00ktym for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:07:58 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Feb 06 12:07:58 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 12:07:58 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:FyL0Xjj+gRDff/rRjUVmgcWDpUAbcaKG03IfQf46kLS lnFZM5NWW/Vv/9ZBC2FaIXt+lovyfgOyQybklZLyP5dzMOMesv o1LhJ6iyhyvz0zbilAtEVHGzGS4WEWR7IfmlY4Jay1/z+M3FpY 8ai4wuaD4bmfFkL+QksFn5UWKa6l8B4L0S1fnkOmkMIFYcWtZT ZlEDTHnhozYznL8JzI3o728eCoIrOyYvItkbXhWGK1ZmQimJ58 UlIBMSSGZmss2ivPWNWUQs4OFrMKvOm4j42hL+mnxrh9n+D8eY I9cvjI= Subject: [Ace] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 11:08:02 -0000 Hi all,=C2=A0 Kepeng and I have been working on an initial version of the agenda and we = wanted to see your reaction.=20 ------------------------------------------------- Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments BOF=20 WEDNESDAY, March 5, 2014 0900-1130 GMT=20 Room: Balmoral BOF Chairs: Kepeng Li and Hannes Tschofenig Agenda:=20 1. Use Cases and Requirements - 30 min http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases-00 Presenter: one of the draft authors 2. 6tisch Use Case and Requirements - 15 min [No new version available yet.] Presenter: Michael Richardson 3. Architectural Design Choices - 30 min [No document available.] Presenter: TBD. 4. Gap Analysis (TBD) - 30 min [No document available yet.] Presenter: TBD.=20 5. Charter Discussion (Chairs) - 45 min Earlier version at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg001= 26.html Presenter: TBD.=20 ------------------------------------------------- As you can see, most of the presenters are still TBD. We will be working o= n that. For the use cases we thought it would be good to have someone from = the author team to talk about selected use cases that raise new and interes= ting requirements.=20 It is obvious what the 6tisch requirements/use case presentation is about.= I hope that Michael has some more details ready for the group before or at= the document submission deadline to judge whether there is some new stuff = in there that isn't already covered right now.=20 For the architectural design choices talk we are thinking about raising qu= estions regarding the high level interaction, such as symmetric key vs. asy= mmetric keys, the role of the trust third party, implementation of some of = the requirements (like the offline use case), at which layer to apply secur= ity, interoperability requirements for an authorization policy language, et= c.=20 The gap analysis talk explains what is available today and why it is insuf= ficient. Finally, we will look at the charter and discuss it.=20 Ciao Hannes & Kepeng From ludwig@sics.se Thu Feb 6 03:11:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12AD61A0368 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:11:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wuUv6pzYjQjM for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 711B51A02F6 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s16BAqRw012545 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 12:11:39 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh332kn9f-1 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:11:39 +0100 Received: from [192.168.38.167] (outwfguestp.fbk.eu [217.77.82.138]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F98640117 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 12:11:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F36DDE.1060207@sics.se> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:11:26 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050803080008030806020609" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-06_04:2014-02-06,2014-02-06,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402060030 Subject: Re: [Ace] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 11:11:45 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050803080008030806020609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/06/2014 12:07 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi all, > > Kepeng and I have been working on an initial version of the agenda and = we wanted to see your reaction. > > ------------------------------------------------- > Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments BOF > > WEDNESDAY, March 5, 2014 > 0900-1130 GMT > > Room: Balmoral > > BOF Chairs: Kepeng Li and Hannes Tschofenig > > Agenda: > =2E.. > 3. Architectural Design Choices - 30 min > [No document available.] > > Presenter: TBD. > G=C3=B6ran and I are working on a draft on that topic. It should be in be= fore=20 the 14th. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms050803080008030806020609 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E8RI7_aDq-03 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E5C1A0398 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan ([172.19.170.94]) by mrigmx.server.lan (mrigmx001) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0M0vtR-1VN8Cq3iXv-00v4a6 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:31:39 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs42.server.lan with HTTP; Thu Feb 06 12:31:39 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 12:31:39 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:s1PkxO/2P9qxoex024cvKFvMgcyMln93NszJ0Rtk0kw cgwXX9HTJpm+nbcbmFT0cdxPoqYUTz4i8B11O+1oIJ/wyM08b/ IVTwRzpHfZIBfiWFjDJvRURLNOlw1/dswKa5e39/7LGJHPqnkD MHLuKWJj+l0uPl9f3+DSEiGqk3YlDbDCCW/g5vTTWdqV/PAlQe mSnbynKjvYH/7ToyzP9RHrj0azuAB+jvbOs8buidGDPWyqmxPF /dVP9VccayuWFgh136Po2F4uHgveCNZvjr+QarYQ0OKdWUPbVR 8vChk4= Cc: Likepeng Subject: [Ace] Face-to-Face Socializing Event @ London IETF Meeting X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 11:31:43 -0000
Hi all, 
 
Kepeng and I were wondering whether there is an interest to get together for an informal chat (e.g., dinner or drinks) on the Sunday after the welcome reception.
We would meet at 7:30pm at the IETF registration desk. 
 
This would give us some time to prepare for the BOF during the week. 
 
Please drop us a mail (off-list) if you are interested. 
 
Ciao
Hannes & Kepeng
 
From schmitt@ifi.uzh.ch Thu Feb 6 03:55:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97461A037C for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:55:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.674 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.674 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.059, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R5h71LTcJQlU for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B0C1A00E0 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from authenticated sender schmitt by ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (postfix) with ESMTPSA id SA for <3BC197605C>; ace@ietf.org Message-ID: <52F37837.3060503@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:55:35 +0100 From: Corinna Schmitt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070504070305060908030601" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at ladislav X-Virus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: [Ace] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 11:55:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070504070305060908030601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo together Am 06.02.14 12:07, schrieb Hannes Tschofenig: > > 3. Architectural Design Choices - 30 min > [No document available.] > > Presenter: TBD. > > I am currently working on my draft update. It will include some architectural design issues and requirements. Hope to send it in next week. Regards, Corinna -- --------------070504070305060908030601 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------000701000009090302080302" --------------000701000009090302080302 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hallo together

Am 06.02.14 12:07, schrieb Hannes Tschofenig:

3. Architectural Design Choices - 30 min
[No document available.]

Presenter: TBD.
I am currently working on my draft update. It will include some architectural design issues and requirements.
Hope to send it in next week.

Regards,
Corinna


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Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EFD1A0385 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:56:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.187 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.187 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bTgiVdO_ihn7 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233F41A00E6 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 03:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from authenticated sender schmitt by ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (postfix) with ESMTPSA id SA; <725927605C> Message-ID: <52F3787A.2020201@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:56:42 +0100 From: Corinna Schmitt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hannes Tschofenig , "ace@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070201040002020606070401" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at ladislav X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Likepeng Subject: Re: [Ace] Face-to-Face Socializing Event @ London IETF Meeting X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 11:56:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070201040002020606070401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo Hannes, I will join. I think table reservation would be good. Regards, Corinna Am 06.02.14 12:31, schrieb Hannes Tschofenig: > Hi all, > Kepeng and I were wondering whether there is an interest to get > together for an informal chat (e.g., dinner or drinks) on the Sunday > after the welcome reception. > We would meet at 7:30pm at the IETF registration desk. > This would give us some time to prepare for the BOF during the week. > Please drop us a mail (off-list) if you are interested. > Ciao > Hannes & Kepeng > > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace -- --------------070201040002020606070401 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------080708000506030606060805" --------------080708000506030606060805 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hallo Hannes,

I will join. I think table reservation would be good.

Regards,
Corinna

Am 06.02.14 12:31, schrieb Hannes Tschofenig:
Hi all, 
 
Kepeng and I were wondering whether there is an interest to get together for an informal chat (e.g., dinner or drinks) on the Sunday after the welcome reception.
We would meet at 7:30pm at the IETF registration desk. 
 
This would give us some time to prepare for the BOF during the week. 
 
Please drop us a mail (off-list) if you are interested. 
 
Ciao
Hannes & Kepeng
 


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ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748CF1A0511 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:24:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fcNwmghWWFZo for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f49.google.com (mail-pa0-f49.google.com [209.85.220.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4559E1A0426 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id hz1so2333608pad.8 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 15:24:05 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:content-type:from 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From: Paul Lambert X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:24:03 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> , <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , Olaf Bergmann , "ace@ietf.org" , =?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 23:24:08 -0000 On Feb 5, 2014, at 3:57 AM, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: > I think we should avoid statements like "Symmetric keys don't scale" = since they are obviously wrong, as noted in the email further below. Yes. My mistake not being very clear in the statement =85 as previously = expanded =85 I will continue to try and clarify: Symmetry keys do not scale for interesting use cases that should be = considered. Scaling is not just =91size=92 in terms of the number of = devices within a single network. Scaling should also consider the = issues of many management entities (like in a home environment). = Symmetric keys used for authentication introduce considerable complexity = when the authentication/identification/authorization must be shared = between multiple systems. >=20 > What you want to say is that you don't like some of the properties of = symmetric keys for your use case, for example the use of a trusted third = party. That's a completely different story.=20 Yes. The properties of managing secrets as the primary means of = authentication adds considerable complexity to complex environments = where more than one system manages the identities and authorization. For example =85 if we all use Facebook, there is a single management = entity and all systems can use the password based (shared secret) = authentication of the system for identification/authentication. Where smaller devices or communities are possible that do not directly = delegate identity to a single third party the use of public keys as the = primary method of identification/authentication simplifies the overall = architecture. =20 >=20 > Note, however, that all solutions submitted to the group I have seen = so far require a trusted third party (TTP) in some form. The difference = is only how often they have to contact that TTP.=20 >=20 > You write: "My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote = authentication server to read a new temperature sensor." If you allow = everyone to read the temperature then that might be fine but you may = want to =20 > a) get a certificate (or symmetric key) at some point in time to the = thermostat so that it can interact with the other devices,=20 yes., devices must maintain a list of other trusted devices and what = the devices are trusted to perform. For a Thermostat it could be - read local temp: any - set temp: *alice # where *alice would be the identity of the = authorized peer more likely groups would be used ... > b) you might want to have a story for revoking the key,=20 yes. > c) you might also want to have access control policies configured that = tell you which device is allowed to access which resources,=20 yes. > d) you may not want to use the same keying material forever (for many = reasons, including privacy, and performance). yes. >=20 > Hence, there is the question why the thermostat shouldn't talk to a = trusted third party. It might on occasion. Real-time connectivity to a single TTP for the = purposes of authentication or authorization is not acceptable for mobile = environments (e.g. cell phones indoors talking to things) One or more TTP is always required in use cases to support user = convienent management > That party might even be in your local network, or in the same = administrative domain (e.g., enterprise network); it does not need to be = in the "cloud=94.=20 Yes. Likely it will be an application on one or more cell phones. >=20 > Furthermore, one should also think about how many solution variants = this group wants to develop. More variants means less interoperability = and more complexity.=20 > Imagine if you have a version that uses symmetric cryptography and = another one that uses asymmetric cryptography. Obviously, a device = implementing the symmetric variant will not be able to talk to a device = that uses the asymmetric variant (unless that device implements both = variants).=20 Yes =85 hence the reason I jumped in the discussion with the position = that symmetric secret based identities should be avoided. =20 Identity should be based on the demonstrated ownership of a public keys. Paul >=20 > Ciao > Hannes >=20 > Gesendet: Montag, 03. Februar 2014 um 12:32 Uhr > Von: "Olaf Bergmann" > An: "Paul Lambert" > Cc: "Stefanie Gerdes" , "Bert Greevenbosch" = , "G=F6ran Selander" = , "ace@ietf.org" > Betreff: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter > Paul Lambert writes: >=20 >> Clearly we have a cellular system based on authentication with = secrets >> that obviously scales. We have web based password authentication that >> obviously scales. However, these always include central servers from >> some provider of some variety that maintains the secret keys (often >> password based). >>=20 >> Secure introduction in this context (one device to another) assumes >> some common secret based intermediary. Secret based architectures >> tend to assume an always-on Internet connection to get to secret = based >> authentication servers. Local symmetric key authentication is >> possible with simple shared keys =85 (e.g. today=92s WPA2-Personal = for >> APs). This appears useful or small groups and home applications - but >> adds the complexity of password based enrollment. Alternatives to >> password based enrollment (WPS2, WPS3, etc) start to use public key >> exchanges to improve the user experience. Simply starting with >> asymmetric based identities in devices would greatly simplify the >> architecture allowing better distributed/P2P interactions that are = not >> dependant on server or services. >>=20 >> So I still hold to the original statement -> "Symmetric solutions do >> not scale.=94 =85. but. =91scale=92 needs to be viewed in the context = of my >> view of the use cases. My requirements/use cases are for ubiquitous >> P2P authentication/authorization. No authentication servers can be >> involved. My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote >> authentication server to read a new temperature sensor. >=20 > Fair enough. This sounds like a reasonable use-case that should be > looked at in this working group. >=20 > Gruesse > Olaf > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From paul@nymbus.net Thu Feb 6 15:28:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00321A0511 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:28:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RZi5z3DX48X8 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f50.google.com (mail-pa0-f50.google.com [209.85.220.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D451A04C8 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id kp14so2373280pab.9 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 15:28:12 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=bXpotAGyrQ06FPDU//Flj3Ls98Cf0jwm1wjnlrQfaIc=; b=HtjB6Iow2WHtk3Fh3xze9XGGIcgeQOTAckzjm2defDwpJYRnZh2l+QMoFyoFZA/4gx jODcf5KiCaPvMBFzC/MnO32XPzz3y1sInObWf+HuLi2JB+sC1uUtAhYc5bgcEDdsnmyj hLwTlUPnjQXrRbMeQai1klu125PLW0PiInIiu1Sa7P8oWKyEUib9N034WpoTafIEzzI1 zvhTFiV7kiAL8byyQe9sg+HaQPmS79X8mdbVoRBEqM77QqlO9M5TRyBD3zhZQsTU5wlN mFJZFTKec+On7oeuBxv1kb+AAVaxmRzRGqHPkupd4OTZRuoa9BLar1ansf7SVgrcj9wA +j/A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmjD3BO61qPZeVn4z3c0in2+kBpJwCGs8Ybp2OF0fFrVwwiBBnefNfZaompnR2tD25227hM X-Received: by 10.68.249.100 with SMTP id yt4mr15436985pbc.165.1391729291943; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.255.243.195] ([192.5.67.11]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id de1sm7291677pbc.7.2014.02.06.15.28.11 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Feb 2014 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <30735.1391619898@sandelman.ca> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:28:09 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <51E60356-DD3F-45B6-AF9B-9BF06A266D59@nymbus.net> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> , <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <30735.1391619898@sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 23:28:15 -0000 On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Hannes Tschofenig wrote: >> You write: "My thermostat should not have to talk to a CA or remote >> authentication server to read a new temperature sensor." If you = allow >> everyone to read the temperature then that might be fine but you may >> want to =20 >=20 > I just want to remind that "scaling" is often confused with "can grow = really big". > when really, it means that a service/protocol/etc. can be sized for = both > small and big deployments. Yes! >=20 > Certificate Authorities do not scale. They are good for medium to = very large > entities, but fail to accomodate the "small", and concern about this = failure > is what people are reacting to. (It's not strictly a protocol problem, = so > much as an implementation failure. There are significant market issues = here > as well) Yes, but ... X.509 Certificate Authorities do not scale =85 for environments that = need to support many naming domains and many possible types of = authorization attributes. The failure of X.509 Certificates to scale in a manner to support more = complex naming and authorization models should not be a deterrent to the = use of public keys for identity/authentication. Do note that I=92m advocating =91public keys=92 not =91PKI=92. Paul >=20 >> d) you may not want to use the same keying material forever (for many >> reasons, including privacy, and performance).=20 >=20 > I actually think that this is perhaps the only useful concern. And = when you > write "rekeying", you actually need to think: "I just bought a house. = I need > to change the keys". Most people think about the meatspace keys, but = we will > need to think about the other keys too. >=20 >> Hence, there is the question why the thermostat shouldn't talk to a >> trusted third party. That party might even be in your local network, = or >> in the same administrative domain (e.g., enterprise network); it does >> not need to be in the "cloud". =20 >=20 > The question is: what is the market for this device. Who is going to = sell, > maintain, and profit from it? While this is slightly outside the = IETF > mandate, it is important to ask: are the people who are going to make = that > device present in this BOF/WG list? We ask that question before we = begin > standardizing routing protocols.... >=20 >> Imagine if you have a version that uses symmetric cryptography and >> another one that uses asymmetric cryptography. Obviously, a device >> implementing the symmetric variant will not be able to talk to a = device >> that uses the asymmetric variant (unless that device implements both >> variants). =20 >=20 > We do have some protocols (IKEv2 comes to mind) where the = authentication in > each direction does not have to be the same. While I know that TLS = can forgo > client authentication, I'm unclear if it can authenticate using a = different > mechanism than the server. >=20 > --=20 > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From likepeng@huawei.com Thu Feb 6 23:57:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05171A027D for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 23:57:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yVVnbxFFxau3 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 23:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03041A007F for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 23:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAW47362; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 07:57:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:56:54 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.40) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:57:53 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA408-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:57:47 +0800 From: Likepeng To: Paul Lambert , Ludwig Seitz Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfcws6Jb64qr7EyB1+x3u+RdR5qRqPoAgAaTvwCAAJYSgIABATfZ//+HAoCAAQ0lgIAAoLIAgABhCwCAAIb8dv//gAaAgAgwxwT//3wnAAAI0bKAAMQE2dA= Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:57:46 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE83E6@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87mwi8v56w.fsf@tzi.org> <52EFA064.2040802@sics.se> <94527E72-A911-4522-9A41-2EF080A8CBCD@nymbus.net> In-Reply-To: <94527E72-A911-4522-9A41-2EF080A8CBCD@nymbus.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 07:57:59 -0000 PiBJIGRvIG5vdCBzZWUgdGhpcyBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIGluIHRoZSBvcGVuIE9NQSBkb2N1bWVu dHMgLSBkbyB5b3UgaGF2ZSBhIHBvaW50ZXI/DQoNCkhlcmUgaXQgaXM6DQpodHRwOi8vdGVjaG5p Y2FsLm9wZW5tb2JpbGVhbGxpYW5jZS5vcmcvVGVjaG5pY2FsL3JlbGVhc2VfcHJvZ3JhbS9saWdo dHdlaWdodE0yTV92MV8wLmFzcHgNCg0KVGhlIG1vc3QgcmVsZXZhbnQgZG9jdW1lbnQgaXM6IE9N QS1UUy1MaWdodHdlaWdodE0yTS1WMV8wLTIwMTMxMjEwLUMucGRmLg0KDQpPTUEgTHdNMk0gbWFp bmx5IGRlZmluZXMgdGhlIEFjY2VzcyBDb250cm9sIExpc3QgZGF0YSBvYmplY3QsIGFuZCB0aGUg QUNMIGRhdGEgb2JqZWN0IGRlZmluZXMgd2hpY2ggb3BlcmF0aW9ucyBvbiBhIGdpdmVuIHJlc291 cmNlIGFyZSBhbGxvd2VkIGZvciB3aGljaCByZXF1ZXN0b3IocykuDQoNCkFDTCBkYXRhIG9iamVj 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ESMTP id BAW48933; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:15:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:14:45 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA409-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.41) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:15:44 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA409-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 16:15:41 +0800 From: Likepeng To: =?utf-8?B?6bmP56iL5LiH6YeM?= <1095318589@qq.com>, =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfcws6Jb64qr7EyB1+x3u+RdR5qRqPoAgAHwUOD//5xuAIAAOHwAgBYeBcA= Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:15:41 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE847A@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE3E36@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE847ASZXEMA501MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:15:51 -0000 --_000_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE847ASZXEMA501MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gYWxsLA0KDQpSZWNlaXZpbmcgbm8gZnVydGhlciBmZWVkYmFjaywgSSBhc3N1bWUgdGhh 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RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S0F2HGfqgLK5 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 00:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77A01A0058 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 00:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAW49621; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:23:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:23:07 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.40) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:23:51 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA408-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 16:23:48 +0800 From: Likepeng To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "Stefanie Gerdes" , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPFfcws6Jb64qr7EyB1+x3u+RdR5qRqPoAgAati6D//4mWAIAAR+8AgAE1PQCAEDBnoA== Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:23:47 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE849B@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52DD456E.7010501@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE48A7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52E66EB8.9060606@tzi.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org 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with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MHdb8-1WCmdE1C7o-003PtR for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 09:56:44 +0100 Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs36.server.lan with HTTP; Fri Feb 07 09:56:44 CET 2014 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Rahman, Akbar" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 09:56:44 +0100 (CET) Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:OMfC6cSeHUO0mh0z76/Bp/G+9p3KgAq/i1JGdAckHJc l07GFXmkUedCs/yL0Xv23KGee2auvli7GjE3aI4FkSij9btOmF WBZkmutdlFmu3qYZVaaMJgsUz+fXCVo6pNcJ107n51pynLGjRA 73/DquuRd1EfIx93uL/cLjVc98QM9RoWOBalF0/7yjx4xbwWV8 /wUga0fazJN7VY1BP7/qxHvbVrEd5aqxz4H7jvzHHvNwOi0P4Y vF6HNaDLdXjResbMxCmZY/9/YmUw1KwgB9DmsOy7d06DTuFqas Jlejj4= Cc: Olaf Bergmann , Ludwig Seitz , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:56:49 -0000
Hi Akbar, 
 
when I looked at the use cases again I ran into your mail below. 
 
What I would like to see is a use case description that describes the user experience rather than a description that talks about the solution. Forget the solution for a moment and try to explain the scenario in a Alice and Bob notation style. 
For example, Bob may be the building owner and he installed some lights in the building. Once finished he then rented it to Alice for a month and delegated access to Alice for use of the lights for that month or so. 
Just making the case up here since I don't really know what use case you have in mind. Have a look at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases/ since it does a very good job in the use case descriptions. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Januar 2014 um 17:05 Uhr
Von: "Rahman, Akbar" <Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com>
An: "Ludwig Seitz" <ludwig@sics.se>, "Olaf Bergmann" <bergmann@tzi.org>
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE
(Note: Changing the subject line to a more descriptive one for the topic)


Hi Ludwig/Olaf,


Thanks for your feedback. It is good that the use case already makes mention of Proxies. What I was interested in was the following use cases (and associated questions). Please tell me if it is already in the scope of the current use case draft or if it should be added.


1) Proxy Unicast Use Case
--------------------------------
A building automation case requires that low cost light fixtures supporting CoAP be purchased off the shelf. Before they are installed, the light fixtures are configured to send all their CoAP requests through a CoAP Forward Proxy located in the building. From experience the building owner sees that the great majority of light fixtures are safe, but that some small percentage occasionally have malware installed on them.

References:
- Forward-Proxies: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-5.7.2
- Security for Proxying: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2


Q1 -Should the Resource Server authentication and access control model require it to know anything about the light fixtures, or should it just consider that all requests as originating from just the Proxy?
Q2 -Can the Proxy enforce authentication and access control model on behalf of the Resource Server?



2) Proxy Multicast Use Case
----------------------------------
As in (1) but with the extra complication that the Proxy may IP multicast (i.e. fan out) the single CoAP request from the light fixture to multiple Resource Servers.


Reference:
- Multicast Proxying: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-18#section-2.10


Q1 & Q2 as in (1)
Q3 - Should the multiple Resource Servers have coordinated authentication and access control models to handle the single multicast request?




Best Regards,


Akbar


-----Original Message-----
From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ludwig Seitz
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 7:36 AM
To: ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter

On 01/23/2014 01:21 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
> "Rahman, Akbar" <Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com> writes:
>
>> - Will ACE cover the transfer of authorization info to a CoAP forward
>> proxy to send unicast/multicast DTLS messages on behalf of a Client?
>>
>> (Reference:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2 )
>
> The current discussions did not address this issue, and I think that
> this will not be a hot topic in the starting phase of a to-be-WG.
>
> But I agree that this kind of authorization transfer should be taken
> into consideration for solution design in the current drafts. Do you
> have a description of a usage scenario that could be incorporated with
> the use cases draft?
>

Proxies are already mentioned in the use cases draft (section 2.5.1 and requirement U5.3). Rahman, do you think that should be more specific?
If so I'm happy to hear your suggestions.

/Ludwig


--
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelevägen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se

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From bergmann@tzi.org Fri Feb 7 03:38:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FBE1A0604 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 03:38:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1wjwaUjOaiT5 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 03:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F2F1A0603 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 03:38:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s17BcZG8024932; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:38:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-5.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 385CC961; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:38:35 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Likepeng References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE84FB@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 12:38:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE84FB@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> (likepeng@huawei.com's message of "Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:41:27 +0000") Message-ID: <87y51ntao5.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:38:51 -0000 Hi, Likepeng writes: > This is about our task list item 2 in the charter: Define profiles for > certificates used for authenticated authorization. > > We have two open issues: one is about the wording "authenticated > authorization", another is about asymmetric key vs. symmetric key. The main text now has some explanatory language how authorization relies on authentication. Isn't this sufficient for an intuitive understanding of that abbreviated term in the task list? I do not see any need to make the task description unreadable by trying to define that term or provide a longis description. > Previously Goran proposed to change it to: > Optimize existing and design new security modes for CoAP, > e.g. profiles for X.509 certificates used in the CoAP/DTLS certificate > security mode. This is a very deep dive into solution space. In particular, I have advoceted for not narrowing the focus specifically to X.509 usage with CoAP/DTLS. Especially if the references to CoAP and DTLS would be removed from the main charter text as Hannes has suggested. We also had a discussion about the semantics of the term "design new security modes" and found that although it has the intended meaning, it is misleading because it looks like we wanted to change CoAP itself. The same holds for "Otimize existing". In my opinion, the existing text ("Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization.") perfectly describes the outstanding task without suggesting a particular technical solution. (And I do not think this rules out symmetric keys because it is just one task among many others.) Gruesse Olaf From bergmann@tzi.org Fri Feb 7 03:56:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443E51A05FE for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 03:56:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BEe8E7HQlBTO for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 03:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E301A00ED for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 03:56:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s17Bufgn001181; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:56:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-5.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 361AA996; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:56:41 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Paul Lambert References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 12:56:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> (Paul Lambert's message of "Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:24:03 -0800") Message-ID: <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , Hannes Tschofenig , "ace@ietf.org" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:56:59 -0000 Paul, Paul Lambert writes: > Identity should be based on the demonstrated ownership of a public keys. I think this is an important point in your arguing for public keys. You want them as identifier used in authentication. First of all, as was discussed before, we should take into consideration that the devices' identities are given by a set of attributes. This may be a set of just one element, including the public key as its value, in some scenarios but this is not always the case. For example, a second element in this list may be the device group identifier. And, given that a device has some initial keying material (this is a precondition for ace but how this happens is out of scope), I do not see why there is any difference between symmetric and asymmetric keys (except for the additional contribution to global warming of the latter option.) -- I completely understand the business model for chip manufacturers and equipment vendors behind using asymmetric keys. And I understand why these are useful when certificates and PKIX are used. But in a distributed environment without a central authentication and authorization server, what is their benefit? Gruesse Olaf From Akbar.Rahman@interdigital.com Fri Feb 7 04:31:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D401A03BF for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 04:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.434 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.434 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lK4e_NoaH-rj for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 04:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (smtp-in1.interdigital.com [64.208.228.133]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9771A03AA for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 04:31:46 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1391776304-06daaa7ce95eb10001-Yzt3Th Received: from smtp-out1.interdigital.com (sahara.interdigital.com [10.0.128.27]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id jO2T1QXxs4F2mRmf for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 07:31:44 -0500 (EST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by smtp-out1.interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:32:20 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CF2400.A4C7FA24" Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:32:19 -0500 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Thread-Index: Ac8j4qpm2s6ni9E8Ru+qnwImJzquBQAHbpog References: From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "Hannes Tschofenig" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2014 12:32:20.0916 (UTC) FILETIME=[A550A740:01CF2400] X-Barracuda-Connect: sahara.interdigital.com[10.0.128.27] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1391776304 X-Barracuda-URL: http://10.1.245.3:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO, HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.144915 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message Cc: Olaf Bergmann , Ludwig Seitz , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516171A03A8 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 05:00:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rlL4Q_Va6xt4 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 05:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7282C1A03A6 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 05:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s17CtKqh004347 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 14:00:17 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hh332m762-1 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:00:17 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4504440117 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 14:00:17 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F4D8E1.9010605@sics.se> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:00:17 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE84FB@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87y51ntao5.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <87y51ntao5.fsf@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms080902000103050902090008" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-07_04:2014-02-07,2014-02-07,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402070044 Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 13:00:21 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080902000103050902090008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/07/2014 12:38 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > > In my opinion, the existing text ("Define profiles for certificates use= d > for authenticated authorization.") perfectly describes the outstanding > task without suggesting a particular technical solution. (And I do not > think this rules out symmetric keys because it is just one task among > many others.) > Certificates are very commonly associated with PKI, so this text does=20 indeed suggest a specific technical solution, and I don't think it should= =2E /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms080902000103050902090008 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh 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[99.231.3.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id y9sm10984568igl.0.2014.02.07.08.08.18 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:08:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52F504EB.5000208@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:08:11 -0500 From: Rene Struik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olaf Bergmann , Paul Lambert References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , Hannes Tschofenig , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: [Ace] quiz question on energy cost of public key computations (was: Re: Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter) X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 16:08:23 -0000 Dear Olaf: I have a quiz question for you all: What is the estimated *total* energy cost of carrying out 30 billion elliptic curve scalar multiplications on RFID-style devices using a best-of-breed hardware only implementation. For simplicity, let us consider 163-bit binary curves. We will ignore any other aspects. Answer options: a) 1 kWh; {10c} b) 1 thousand kWh; c) 1 million kWh; d) 1 billion kWh. There are no prizes. However, I hope this puts the contribution that best-of-breed crypto computations make to global warming (vs. the contribution hereto of email traffic regarding the ACE charter and activities) into perspective. Note: This question was triggered by Cisco's and Intel's forecast that by 2020 there would be 30 billion interconnected objects swarming the planet. Best regards, Rene [excerpt of your email as of February 7, 2014] I do not see why there is any difference between symmetric and asymmetric keys (except for the additional contribution to global warming of the latter option.) On 2/7/2014 6:56 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > Paul, > > Paul Lambert writes: > >> Identity should be based on the demonstrated ownership of a public keys. > I think this is an important point in your arguing for public keys. You > want them as identifier used in authentication. > > First of all, as was discussed before, we should take into consideration > that the devices' identities are given by a set of attributes. This may > be a set of just one element, including the public key as its value, in > some scenarios but this is not always the case. For example, a second > element in this list may be the device group identifier. > > And, given that a device has some initial keying material (this is a > precondition for ace but how this happens is out of scope), I do not see > why there is any difference between symmetric and asymmetric keys > (except for the additional contribution to global warming of the latter > option.) -- I completely understand the business model for chip > manufacturers and equipment vendors behind using asymmetric keys. And I > understand why these are useful when certificates and PKIX are used. But > in a distributed environment without a central authentication and > authorization server, what is their benefit? > > Gruesse > Olaf > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 From bergmann@tzi.org Fri Feb 7 08:24:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178181A01AF for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:24:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7n_fIaYiYETg for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47F51A01B7 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:24:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s17GO6Qw027825; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 17:24:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-5.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87E63C0D; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 17:24:06 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Rene Struik References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> <52F504EB.5000208@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:24:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: <52F504EB.5000208@gmail.com> (Rene Struik's message of "Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:08:11 -0500") Message-ID: <8761oquc0p.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , Bert Greevenbosch , Paul Lambert , "ace@ietf.org" , Stefanie Gerdes , Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [Ace] quiz question on energy cost of public key computations X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 16:24:34 -0000 Rene, Rene Struik writes: > What is the estimated *total* energy cost of carrying out 30 billion > elliptic curve scalar multiplications on RFID-style devices using a > best-of-breed hardware only implementation. For simplicity, let us > consider 163-bit binary curves. We will ignore any other aspects. my apologies for the polemic remark. What I am more interested in is the difference in battery lifetime for a single device. Gruesse Olaf From rstruik.ext@gmail.com Fri Feb 7 08:41:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FD71A01B9 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:41:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N0nAanKbJcPG for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x231.google.com (mail-ig0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0131A0143 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f177.google.com with SMTP id k19so2179506igc.4 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=e5P2NeE6nFXOjfUGViVWCN52Um9IkbSZXFH0CX5bdM4=; b=ZjfUCfaeGoAyi41Ff1+/EMMFEerYQaaHK7l47PcEhKcHieLNasi3sHPtb8eLZpVIoe HAuZiY+wp2TJJ4URiEmzl965rXdyHwoUz4HaeHbbDpDyAkOGacqS7fh3HByjnTHBjA31 11FbtJq7/rSACdkC0wH4GjdKzgCRp8rZ+0VJgYPmXOmsNQIqu1D644oU0wd2BT2DKkGG Kku+CjmoYOL+16rs7fyMWsHqKL5S97I1ROByT8K4eY3H5ebt9XNK0eo/JzBR9ujrrsHP 5Et5luiqwkhc0HekB+MJ9FJ4V/D6G/XbQ19Kj3j0XqHU3ICYN6Ofgp0wzeKgB2u+fI/2 LB3A== X-Received: by 10.42.47.201 with SMTP id p9mr8117348icf.4.1391791276197; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (CPE0013100e2c51-CM001cea35caa6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [99.231.3.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id y9sm11252127igl.0.2014.02.07.08.41.14 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:41:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52F50CA4.4070107@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:41:08 -0500 From: Rene Struik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olaf Bergmann References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> <52F504EB.5000208@gmail.com> <8761oquc0p.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <8761oquc0p.fsf@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , Bert Greevenbosch , Paul Lambert , "ace@ietf.org" , Stefanie Gerdes , Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [Ace] quiz question on energy cost of public key computations X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 16:41:18 -0000 Hi Olaf: In that case, the same quiz question still stands, but one now divides the answer by 30 billion. I would encourage all to answer my computational energy consumption cost quiz question, but also answer the related quiz question re communication energy cost. For simplicity, let us consider an 802.15.4 device, with power consumption of 10 mW and 250kbps raw data rate, where the listening time is 200 us and a single packet/frame is 128 bytes. Once you do this homework exercise, you will get an idea of how to answer your question below. Rene [excerpt of your email below] my apologies for the polemic remark. What I am more interested in is the difference in battery lifetime for a single device. On 2/7/2014 11:24 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > Rene, > > Rene Struik writes: > >> What is the estimated *total* energy cost of carrying out 30 billion >> elliptic curve scalar multiplications on RFID-style devices using a >> best-of-breed hardware only implementation. For simplicity, let us >> consider 163-bit binary curves. We will ignore any other aspects. > my apologies for the polemic remark. What I am more interested in is the > difference in battery lifetime for a single device. > > Gruesse > Olaf -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 From cabo@tzi.org Fri Feb 7 15:08:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A24F1AD73E; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:08:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JF3_k9F2H1dD; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0B21A0444; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:08:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s17N8fN3014186; Sat, 8 Feb 2014 00:08:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p54893711.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.55.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8EE04CF1; Sat, 8 Feb 2014 00:08:40 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 00:08:38 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0E66B5C7-0323-48D6-86A1-950CA260B475@tzi.org> References: To: dtls-iot@ietf.org, core , ace@ietf.org, "6lo@ietf.org WG" <6lo@ietf.org>, roll WG , lwip@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Subject: [Ace] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF89, "final" version X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 23:08:46 -0000 On 01 Feb 2014, at 10:34, Carsten Bormann wrote: > A first draft version of the IETF88 agenda is out. > ** THIS IS GOING TO CHANGE ** for conflict resolution,=20 > so please don't make travel arrangements based on it. >=20 > Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda built from that. =20 > All times are UTC (UTC-0000). > The Constrained Node/Network group meetings are nicely spread out over = the week. Here is an update with the =93final=94 agenda (caveat viator). Nothing of substance has changed, a couple of room assignments (and a = longer break on Tuesday). Just making sure you don=92t turn up in the wrong room... Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten MONDAY, March 3, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Buckingham APP appsawg Applications Area Working Group WG - = Combined with APPAREA 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Blenheim APP httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis WG Sovereign INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG 1520-1620 Afternoon Session II Viscount OPS eman Energy Management WG Sovereign SEC *** dice DTLS In Constrained Environments WG Palace C SEC httpauth Hypertext Transfer Protocol = Authentication WG 1630-1730 Afternoon Session III Palace C SEC httpauth Hypertext Transfer Protocol = Authentication WG TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Park Suite APP *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Sovereign INT homenet Home Networking WG Palace C SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG 1300-1400 Afternoon Session I Viscount INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG 1610-1840 Afternoon Session III Viscount INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Balmoral SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Sovereign TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG WEDNESDAY, March 5, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Balmoral APP *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments BOF Sovereign OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Blenheim APP httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis WG Viscount TSV taps Transport Services BOF 1520-1620 Afternoon Session II Balmoral INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Buckingham RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting Viscount TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1630-1730 Afternoon Session III Balmoral INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Buckingham RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting THURSDAY, March 6, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Viscount TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Buckingham INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Sovereign OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Viscount SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Viscount RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG 1700-1830 Afternoon Session III Balmoral INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG Blenheim SEC jose Javascript Object Signing and Encryption = WG FRIDAY, March 7, 2014 0900-1130 Morning Session I Richm_Chl_Tow APP uta Using TLS in Applications WG Buckingham TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1150-1320 Afternoon Session 1 Viscount APP *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Balmoral APP json JavaScript Object Notation WG From likepeng@huawei.com Fri Feb 7 19:03:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 248F01ADBCC for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 19:03:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lK_eiPbl3TJa for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 19:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBFF1AD945 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 19:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAX15878; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 03:03:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 8 Feb 2014 03:02:32 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.40) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 8 Feb 2014 03:03:18 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA408-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sat, 8 Feb 2014 11:03:15 +0800 From: Likepeng To: Ludwig Seitz , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPI/khs6Jb64qr7EyB1+x3u+RdR5qpOwqAgAFw5kA= Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 03:03:14 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE8A07@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE84FB@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87y51ntao5.fsf@tzi.org> <52F4D8E1.9010605@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <52F4D8E1.9010605@sics.se> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.46.8.37] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 03:03:23 -0000 SGkgTHVkd2lnLA0KDQo+c28gdGhpcyB0ZXh0IGRvZXMgaW5kZWVkIHN1Z2dlc3QgYSBzcGVjaWZp YyB0ZWNobmljYWwgc29sdXRpb24sIGFuZCBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIGl0IHNob3VsZC4NCg0KQ2Fu IHlvdSBwcm92aWRlIGFuIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlIHdvcmRpbmc/DQoNClRoYW5rcywNCktpbmQgUmVn YXJkcw0KS2VwZW5nDQoNCi0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogQWNlIFtt YWlsdG86YWNlLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIOS7o+ihqCBMdWR3aWcgU2VpdHoNCuWPkemAgeaX tumXtDogMjAxNOW5tDLmnIg35pelIDIxOjAwDQrmlLbku7bkuro6IGFjZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K5Li7 6aKYOiBSZTogW0FjZV0gTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gb2YgUHJvcG9zZWQgQ2hhcnRlcg0KDQpPbiAwMi8w Ny8yMDE0IDEyOjM4IFBNLCBPbGFmIEJlcmdtYW5uIHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+DQo+IEluIG15IG9waW5p b24sIHRoZSBleGlzdGluZyB0ZXh0ICgiRGVmaW5lIHByb2ZpbGVzIGZvciBjZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZXMg DQo+IHVzZWQgZm9yIGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0ZWQgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbi4iKSBwZXJmZWN0bHkgZGVz Y3JpYmVzIHRoZSANCj4gb3V0c3RhbmRpbmcgdGFzayB3aXRob3V0IHN1Z2dlc3RpbmcgYSBwYXJ0 aWN1bGFyIHRlY2huaWNhbCBzb2x1dGlvbi4gDQo+IChBbmQgSSBkbyBub3QgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyBy dWxlcyBvdXQgc3ltbWV0cmljIGtleXMgYmVjYXVzZSBpdCBpcyBqdXN0IA0KPiBvbmUgdGFzayBh bW9uZyBtYW55IG90aGVycy4pDQo+DQoNCkNlcnRpZmljYXRlcyBhcmUgdmVyeSBjb21tb25seSBh c3NvY2lhdGVkIHdpdGggUEtJLCBzbyB0aGlzIHRleHQgZG9lcyBpbmRlZWQgc3VnZ2VzdCBhIHNw ZWNpZmljIHRlY2huaWNhbCBzb2x1dGlvbiwgYW5kIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgaXQgc2hvdWxkLg0K DQovTHVkd2lnDQoNCg0KDQotLQ0KTHVkd2lnIFNlaXR6LCBQaEQNClNJQ1MgU3dlZGlzaCBJQ1Qg QUINCklkZW9uIFNjaWVuY2UgUGFyaw0KQnVpbGRpbmcgQmV0YSAyDQpTY2hlZWxldsOkZ2VuIDE3 DQpTRS0yMjMgNzAgTHVuZA0KDQpQaG9uZSArNDYoMCk3MC0zNDkgOTIgNTENCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cu c2ljcy5zZQ0KDQo= From paul@nymbus.net Sat Feb 8 17:29:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C341A066A for ; 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Sat, 08 Feb 2014 17:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ve15sm72166241pab.8.2014.02.08.17.29.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Feb 2014 17:29:22 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 17:29:20 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> To: Olaf Bergmann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Bert Greevenbosch , Hannes Tschofenig , =?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 01:29:25 -0000 On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:56 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > Paul, >=20 > Paul Lambert writes: >=20 >> Identity should be based on the demonstrated ownership of a public = keys. >=20 > I think this is an important point in your arguing for public keys. = You > want them as identifier used in authentication. Yes. >=20 > First of all, as was discussed before, we should take into = consideration > that the devices' identities are given by a set of attributes. Perhaps =85 this is a view. =20 Another model would be to consider that an =91identity=92 at it=92s = basis is the set of information that can be cryptographically proven to be owned by only the =91speaking=92 device. This cryptographically=20 should be a public key.=20 Public keys may be then associated with attributes that might include names, addresses, group membership, device=20 descriptions etc. Each type of attrbiute associated with a public key could have have a different name space and trust hierarchy. =20 So, this a is more key centric view where the public is the identity and attributes may subsequently be assocaited with the identity. The binding of attributes to a key might be by: - other keys signing a statement that assigns an attribute (e.g. a certificate like structure) - obtained from a trusted server=20 - obtained through a cryptographically authenticated tunnel - other out-of-band assignment > This may > be a set of just one element, including the public key as its value, = in > some scenarios but this is not always the case. For example, a second > element in this list may be the device group identifier. I=92m arguing for the inverting your object hierarchy to start with the = key. >=20 > And, given that a device has some initial keying material (this is a > precondition for ace but how this happens is out of scope), I do not = see > why there is any difference between symmetric and asymmetric keys Huge difference. In a truly distributed environment symmetric keys are very hard to manage and distribute. > (except for the additional contribution to global warming of the = latter > option.) No. Public key cryptography should not be rejected for processing = power. > -- I completely understand the business model for chip > manufacturers and equipment vendors behind using asymmetric keys. ? =20 > And I > understand why these are useful when certificates and PKIX are used. = But > in a distributed environment without a central authentication and > authorization server, what is their benefit? Public key authentication makes for simpler architectures and protocols. Public keys do not need a central server =85. not sure what yur point is = here. Paul >=20 > Gruesse > Olaf > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com Sun Feb 9 17:01:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F021A0641 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:01:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JX0pY5i4MF6m for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72EDE1A063F for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDK37052; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:01:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 00:59:52 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA407-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.39) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:00:59 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.206]) by SZXEMA407-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 09:00:55 +0800 From: Bert Greevenbosch To: Paul Lambert , Olaf Bergmann Thread-Topic: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPJTZiqsNqH/q9Q0mjhqRoF/6DB5qtq6JA Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:00:54 +0000 Message-ID: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3F4EA0@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.162.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , Hannes Tschofenig , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:01:18 -0000 Hi Paul, Olaf, all, Thanks for the interesting discussion. I agree, that if there was a public key, that public key could be used as a= n identity. A public key infrastructure indeed may be achieved without a central server= . PGP is a good example of such a de-centralised PKI. Nevertheless, I think we should not forget that also in PGP there are third= parties guaranteeing public keys, and thus the associated identities. So a= lthough PGP is de-centralised, it does not omit the need for a third party. I just want to make sure we don't get into a trap thinking that the public = key as an identity would be enough - we would have to do more. After all, a= nyone can generate a public key; without guarantee such public key / identi= ty binding is useless. Maybe a bit of an open door, but I just wanted to remind us of this. :-) Best regards, Bert > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Lambert [mailto:paul@nymbus.net] > Sent: 09 February 2014 09:29 > To: Olaf Bergmann > Cc: Stefanie Gerdes; Bert Greevenbosch; Hannes Tschofenig; ace@ietf.org; > G=F6ran Selander > Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New > Version of Proposed Charter >=20 >=20 > On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:56 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: >=20 > > Paul, > > > > Paul Lambert writes: > > > >> Identity should be based on the demonstrated ownership of a public > keys. > > > > I think this is an important point in your arguing for public keys. > You > > want them as identifier used in authentication. > Yes. > > > > First of all, as was discussed before, we should take into > consideration > > that the devices' identities are given by a set of attributes. > Perhaps . this is a view. >=20 > Another model would be to consider that an 'identity' at it's basis > is the set of information that can be cryptographically proven to be > owned by only the 'speaking' device. This cryptographically > should be a public key. >=20 > Public keys may be then associated with attributes that might > include names, addresses, group membership, device > descriptions etc. >=20 > Each type of attrbiute associated with a public key could have > have a different name space and trust hierarchy. >=20 > So, this a is more key centric view where the public is the identity > and attributes may subsequently be assocaited with the identity. > The binding of attributes to a key might be by: > - other keys signing a statement that assigns an attribute > (e.g. a certificate like structure) > - obtained from a trusted server > - obtained through a cryptographically authenticated tunnel > - other out-of-band assignment >=20 > > This may > > be a set of just one element, including the public key as its value, > in > > some scenarios but this is not always the case. For example, a second > > element in this list may be the device group identifier. > I'm arguing for the inverting your object hierarchy to start with the > key. >=20 > > > > And, given that a device has some initial keying material (this is a > > precondition for ace but how this happens is out of scope), I do not > see > > why there is any difference between symmetric and asymmetric keys > Huge difference. In a truly distributed environment symmetric keys are > very hard to manage and distribute. >=20 > > (except for the additional contribution to global warming of the > latter > > option.) > No. Public key cryptography should not be rejected for processing > power. >=20 > > -- I completely understand the business model for chip > > manufacturers and equipment vendors behind using asymmetric keys. > ? >=20 > > And I > > understand why these are useful when certificates and PKIX are used. > But > > in a distributed environment without a central authentication and > > authorization server, what is their benefit? > Public key authentication makes for simpler architectures and protocols. >=20 > Public keys do not need a central server .. not sure what yur point is > here. >=20 > Paul >=20 >=20 > > > > Gruesse > > Olaf > > _______________________________________________ > > Ace mailing list > > Ace@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From ludwig@sics.se Sun Feb 9 23:48:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8571A07C1 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:48:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QST5n_gbPfgf for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193421A07BE for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1A7mhYq008718 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:48:43 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hw0g95rjq-1 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:48:42 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC30540116 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:48:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F88451.4060002@sics.se> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:48:33 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE84FB@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87y51ntao5.fsf@tzi.org> <52F4D8E1.9010605@sics.se> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE8A07@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE8A07@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060604020206060900070907" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-10_01:2014-02-10,2014-02-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402090277 Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 07:48:48 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060604020206060900070907 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/08/2014 04:03 AM, Likepeng wrote: > Hi Ludwig, > >> so this text does indeed suggest a specific technical solution, and I = don't think it should. > > Can you provide an alternative wording? > > Thanks, > Kind Regards > Kepeng > How about "Define profiles for encoding authentication and authorization = data" ? That way we don't only cover certificates, but also assertions, (OAuth)=20 tokens, raw public keys, (Kerberos) tickets and whatever else could be=20 profiled to restrict it to some compact representation. /Ludwig > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3= =E8=A1=A8 Ludwig Seitz > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2014=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=887=E6=97=A5= 21:00 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ace@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter > > On 02/07/2014 12:38 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > >> >> In my opinion, the existing text ("Define profiles for certificates >> used for authenticated authorization.") perfectly describes the >> outstanding task without suggesting a particular technical solution. >> (And I do not think this rules out symmetric keys because it is just >> one task among many others.) --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 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localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IBvKEUZng3bO for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-x231.google.com (mail-qa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E071A009A for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id w8so8928866qac.36 for ; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 23:51:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=eV+p9jap0XO6uLB46h0A/pq5INTMoTtAiYUVYss/tc8=; b=aG44BIBls+6O0pJcGbT7wlCHoOFmTGijeiai+8NeprRFHh/HguH+HyK10oXkdWt1QJ KPPeQnvu9h+ZN0REb6qnxPJj3OFn40G9xp4WIohtcToqIt+12dZU5tQOnKdqG6X8Jb8+ b6fyLXJmLqw5FFte+ueKulpNFaOErW2taNYmhS5IaXiah4+USmx9nEhKXgLAoKd/0pra KmVbfyVkbbmeStB4ah5Xp2AMiPp6TQWXukiJzXfgyAHva7IiUDAFH/pbYMf34cCCxG+D VDQuXKp7YL2doqxQQggQ9Rl7RcUqbZo3BBl/XhDyflDkUbsGhm73zxybx6g3VC4yTdae aghg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.28.197 with SMTP id n5mr45420882qac.43.1392018704557; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 23:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.146.100 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:51:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52F88451.4060002@sics.se> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE84FB@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87y51ntao5.fsf@tzi.org> <52F4D8E1.9010605@sics.se> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE8A07@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52F88451.4060002@sics.se> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:51:44 +0800 Message-ID: From: ma yc To: Ludwig Seitz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1db6c67eb6a04f2089cff Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 07:51:47 -0000 --001a11c1db6c67eb6a04f2089cff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support, the scope should not be restricted to certificates only. Regards Yuanchen 2014-02-10 Ludwig Seitz : > On 02/08/2014 04:03 AM, Likepeng wrote: > >> Hi Ludwig, >> >> so this text does indeed suggest a specific technical solution, and I >>> don't think it should. >>> >> >> Can you provide an alternative wording? >> >> Thanks, >> Kind Regards >> Kepeng >> >> > > How about "Define profiles for encoding authentication and authorization > data" ? > > That way we don't only cover certificates, but also assertions, (OAuth) > tokens, raw public keys, (Kerberos) tickets and whatever else could be > profiled to restrict it to some compact representation. > > /Ludwig > > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- >> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3= =E8=A1=A8 Ludwig Seitz >> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2014=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=887=E6=97=A5 = 21:00 >> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ace@ietf.org >> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter >> >> On 02/07/2014 12:38 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: >> >> >>> In my opinion, the existing text ("Define profiles for certificates >>> used for authenticated authorization.") perfectly describes the >>> outstanding task without suggesting a particular technical solution. >>> (And I do not think this rules out symmetric keys because it is just >>> one task among many others.) >>> >> > > -- > Ludwig Seitz, PhD > SICS Swedish ICT AB > Ideon Science Park > Building Beta 2 > Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17 > SE-223 70 Lund > > Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 > http://www.sics.se > > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > > --001a11c1db6c67eb6a04f2089cff Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Support, the scope should not be restricted to certificate= s only.

Regards
Yuanchen


2014-02-10 Ludwig Seitz= <= ludwig@sics.se>:
On 02/08/2014 04:03 AM, Li= kepeng wrote:
Hi Ludwig,

so this text does indeed suggest a specific technical solution, and I don&#= 39;t think it should.

Can you provide an alternative wording?

Thanks,
Kind Regards
Kepeng



How about "Define profiles for encoding authentication and authorizati= on data" =C2=A0?

That way we don't only cover certificates, but also assertions, (OAuth)= tokens, raw public keys, (Kerberos) tickets and whatever else could be pro= filed to restrict it to some compact representation.=

/Ludwig


-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Ludwig= Seitz
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2014=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=887=E6=97=A5 21:= 00
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ace@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter

On 02/07/2014 12:38 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote:


In my opinion, the existing text ("Define profiles for certificates used for authenticated authorization.") perfectly describes the
outstanding task without suggesting a particular technical solution.
(And I do not think this rules out symmetric keys because it is just
one task among many others.)


--
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--001a11c1db6c67eb6a04f2089cff-- From qiminpeng@chinamobile.com Sun Feb 9 23:58:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6D11A0185 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:58:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.721 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_FUTURE_06_12=1.947, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLiFKFHmpFVM for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.176.64.232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8CA8D1A009A for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 23:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.20.21]) by rmmx-oa_allagent01-12001 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee152f8862861d-4261d; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:56:24 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee152f8862861d-4261d Received: from [10.2.50.180] (unknown[10.2.50.180]) by rmsmtp-oa_rmapp03-12003 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee352f886282ef-379f8; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:56:24 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee352f886282ef-379f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Ron Puzzle In-Reply-To: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3F4EA0@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:59:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3F4EA0@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> To: Bert Greevenbosch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= , Olaf Bergmann , Paul Lambert , "ace@ietf.org" , Stefanie Gerdes , Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 07:58:47 -0000 Hi Paul, Olaf, Bert and all Please forgive my jumping in.=20 I have similar considerations with Bert. The only public key used as = identity may have some problems. I agree that public key can make the user/devices/etc to make them = distinguish with others. However, It would difficult to make the = users/devices/etc. to be accepted by others. When Alice announce its = public key to others, how they trust that is the right public key for = Alice? BRs, Minpeng=20 =E5=9C=A8 2014=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8810=E6=97=A5=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=881:0= 0=EF=BC=8CBert Greevenbosch =E5=86=99=E9=81= =93=EF=BC=9A > Hi Paul, Olaf, all, >=20 > Thanks for the interesting discussion. >=20 > I agree, that if there was a public key, that public key could be used = as an identity. >=20 > A public key infrastructure indeed may be achieved without a central = server. PGP is a good example of such a de-centralised PKI. >=20 > Nevertheless, I think we should not forget that also in PGP there are = third parties guaranteeing public keys, and thus the associated = identities. So although PGP is de-centralised, it does not omit the need = for a third party. >=20 > I just want to make sure we don't get into a trap thinking that the = public key as an identity would be enough - we would have to do more. = After all, anyone can generate a public key; without guarantee such = public key / identity binding is useless. >=20 > Maybe a bit of an open door, but I just wanted to remind us of this. = :-) >=20 > Best regards, > Bert >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Paul Lambert [mailto:paul@nymbus.net] >> Sent: 09 February 2014 09:29 >> To: Olaf Bergmann >> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes; Bert Greevenbosch; Hannes Tschofenig; = ace@ietf.org; >> G=C3=B6ran Selander >> Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New >> Version of Proposed Charter >>=20 >>=20 >> On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:56 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: >>=20 >>> Paul, >>>=20 >>> Paul Lambert writes: >>>=20 >>>> Identity should be based on the demonstrated ownership of a public >> keys. >>>=20 >>> I think this is an important point in your arguing for public keys. >> You >>> want them as identifier used in authentication. >> Yes. >>>=20 >>> First of all, as was discussed before, we should take into >> consideration >>> that the devices' identities are given by a set of attributes. >> Perhaps . this is a view. >>=20 >> Another model would be to consider that an 'identity' at it's basis >> is the set of information that can be cryptographically proven to be >> owned by only the 'speaking' device. This cryptographically >> should be a public key. >>=20 >> Public keys may be then associated with attributes that might >> include names, addresses, group membership, device >> descriptions etc. >>=20 >> Each type of attrbiute associated with a public key could have >> have a different name space and trust hierarchy. >>=20 >> So, this a is more key centric view where the public is the identity >> and attributes may subsequently be assocaited with the identity. >> The binding of attributes to a key might be by: >> - other keys signing a statement that assigns an attribute >> (e.g. a certificate like structure) >> - obtained from a trusted server >> - obtained through a cryptographically authenticated tunnel >> - other out-of-band assignment >>=20 >>> This may >>> be a set of just one element, including the public key as its value, >> in >>> some scenarios but this is not always the case. For example, a = second >>> element in this list may be the device group identifier. >> I'm arguing for the inverting your object hierarchy to start with the >> key. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> And, given that a device has some initial keying material (this is a >>> precondition for ace but how this happens is out of scope), I do not >> see >>> why there is any difference between symmetric and asymmetric keys >> Huge difference. In a truly distributed environment symmetric keys = are >> very hard to manage and distribute. >>=20 >>> (except for the additional contribution to global warming of the >> latter >>> option.) >> No. Public key cryptography should not be rejected for processing >> power. >>=20 >>> -- I completely understand the business model for chip >>> manufacturers and equipment vendors behind using asymmetric keys. >> ? >>=20 >>> And I >>> understand why these are useful when certificates and PKIX are used. >> But >>> in a distributed environment without a central authentication and >>> authorization server, what is their benefit? >> Public key authentication makes for simpler architectures and = protocols. >>=20 >> Public keys do not need a central server .. not sure what yur point = is >> here. >>=20 >> Paul >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Gruesse >>> Olaf >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ace mailing list >>> Ace@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >=20 From Akbar.Rahman@interdigital.com Mon Feb 10 22:56:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81EA1A069A for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 22:56:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6e38MpYE5uy5 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 22:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (smtp-in1.interdigital.com [64.208.228.133]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5201A0798 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 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Seitz" , "Hannes Tschofenig" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2014 06:56:32.0528 (UTC) FILETIME=[6597A100:01CF26F6] X-Barracuda-Connect: sahara.interdigital.com[10.0.128.27] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1392101755 X-Barracuda-URL: http://10.1.245.3:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO, HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.145019 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and 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QGlldGYub3JnPC9hPjxicj48YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2FjZSIgdGFyZ2V0PSJfYmxhbmsiPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vYWNlPC9hPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48 L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2JvZHk+PC9odG1sPg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01CF26F6.652DB52B-- From bergmann@tzi.org Tue Feb 11 01:32:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285261A091B for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:32:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id excPxGtx3jFZ for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111A21A0918 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:32:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1B9WYSk024114; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:32:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (p54BC4845.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.188.72.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3D49D991; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:32:34 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: "Rahman\, Akbar" References: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:32:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Akbar Rahman's message of "Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:56:30 -0500") Message-ID: <874n46c7v2.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Ludwig Seitz , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:32:40 -0000 Hi Akbar, "Rahman, Akbar" writes: > Bob and the =A0Bank lights Thanks for writing this up. Indeed, there are some commonalities with the contents of the use-case document. What makes your use-case different is that you describe access control on the network level (the router/switch rejects forwarding of excess traffic). Usually, this would be part of the forwarding node's filtering policy. Is this something that could be handled by the "ACE framework" as well? Gruesse Olaf From Akbar.Rahman@interdigital.com Tue Feb 11 04:32:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909FB1A01DA for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0aYMV_JxFT2 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (smtp-in1.interdigital.com [64.208.228.133]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4A21A0144 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:32:15 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1392121934-06daaa7cea92f00001-Yzt3Th Received: from smtp-out1.interdigital.com (sahara.interdigital.com [10.0.128.27]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id vlfc5Uz0NrWBbGHJ for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:32:14 -0500 (EST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.12]) by smtp-out1.interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:32:51 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:32:50 -0500 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <874n46c7v2.fsf@tzi.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Thread-Index: Ac8nDFWx4pjLhnHVT4WWKPsV/fJpNAAF4P7g References: <874n46c7v2.fsf@tzi.org> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: "Olaf Bergmann" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2014 12:32:51.0875 (UTC) FILETIME=[616B9F30:01CF2725] X-Barracuda-Connect: sahara.interdigital.com[10.0.128.27] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1392121934 X-Barracuda-URL: http://10.1.245.3:8000/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests=BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.2.145024 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 BSF_SC0_MISMATCH_TO Envelope rcpt doesn't match header Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Ludwig Seitz , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 12:32:18 -0000 Hi Olaf, Yes, this is exactly the issue that I wanted to raise. I imagine that a = network element which I term the Proxy (but which can be called = relay/router/etc) will have to be part of the authorization framework = and in some cases this Proxy will have to be the one rejecting traffic. = The reason that I bring this up in the ACE framework is because of my = previous references to key parts of the existing CoAP specs: 1) Proxy Unicast Use Case -------------------------------- References: - Forward-Proxies: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-5.7.2 - Security for Proxying: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2 Q1 -Should the Resource Server authentication and access control model = require it to know anything about the light fixtures, or should it just = consider that all requests as originating from just the Proxy? =20 Q2 -Can the Proxy enforce authentication and access control model on = behalf of the Resource Server? 2) Proxy Multicast Use Case ---------------------------------- As in (1) but with the extra complication that the Proxy may IP = multicast (i.e. fan out) the single CoAP request from the light fixture = to multiple Resource Servers. Reference: - Multicast Proxying: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-18#section-2.10 Q1 & Q2 as in (1) Q3 - Should the multiple Resource Servers have coordinated = authentication and access control models to handle the single multicast = request? Best Regards, Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Olaf Bergmann [mailto:bergmann@tzi.org]=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 4:33 AM To: Rahman, Akbar Cc: Ludwig Seitz; Hannes Tschofenig; ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] Possible Proxy use cases for ACE Hi Akbar, "Rahman, Akbar" writes: > Bob and the =A0Bank lights Thanks for writing this up. Indeed, there are some commonalities with = the contents of the use-case document. What makes your use-case = different is that you describe access control on the network level (the = router/switch rejects forwarding of excess traffic). Usually, this would = be part of the forwarding node's filtering policy. Is this something = that could be handled by the "ACE framework" as well? Gruesse Olaf From schmitt@ifi.uzh.ch Tue Feb 11 05:22:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07D31A0144 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:22:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e8yZxpje6i4B for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5796D1A02C6 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from authenticated sender schmitt by ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (postfix) with ESMTPSA id SA; Message-ID: <52FA2402.5070307@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:22:10 +0100 From: Corinna Schmitt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ace@ietf.org" References: <52FA1EE8.8090106@ifi.uzh.ch> In-Reply-To: <52FA1EE8.8090106@ifi.uzh.ch> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020804060809070306000805" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at ladislav X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Burkhard Stiller Subject: Re: [Ace] Draft update draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot-02 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:22:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020804060809070306000805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo fellows, we updated our document draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot-02 based on the discussions and feedback in Vancouver. Current version is available under http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot-02. Important updates are included in the following sections: 4 . Two-way authentication handshake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5 4.1 . DTLS Standard -RFC 6347 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6 4.2 . A Standard Based End-to-End Security Architecture . . . .6 4.2.1 . Handshake description . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8 4.2.2 . Certificate creation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8 5 . Architecture Description . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9 5.1 . Use-cases . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 5.2 . Requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11 5.3 . Data Access Procedure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12 See you all in London, Corinna -- --------------020804060809070306000805 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------040301050600000806030205" --------------040301050600000806030205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo fellows,

we updated our document draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot-02 based on the discussions and feedback in Vancouver.
Current version is available under http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot-02.

Important updates are included in the following sections:
   4.  Two-way authentication handshake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  5
     4.1.  DTLS Standard - RFC 6347 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  6
     4.2.  A Standard Based End-to-End Security Architecture  . . . .  6
       4.2.1.  Handshake description  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  8
       4.2.2.  Certificate creation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  8

   5.  Architecture Description . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  9
     5.1.  Use-cases  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
     5.2.  Requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
     5.3.  Data Access Procedure  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12

See you all in London,
Corinna

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ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0351A0545 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:24:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id adtqD1UxUWn1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42C81A0502 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1BFEv8S029034 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:23:54 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hw0g98k68-1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:23:54 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA7E940117 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:23:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52FA4089.3000506@sics.se> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:23:53 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ace@ietf.org" References: <20140211151932.6371.64090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140211151932.6371.64090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140211151932.6371.64090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms010304040608010305040200" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-11_04:2014-02-11,2014-02-11,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402110057 Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:24:00 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010304040608010305040200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, as suggested by Hannes, I have updated and uploaded a new version of=20 what was previously draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases-00. Many thanks to all = that have contributed to this document. Obviously I will continue to update this as the discussion develops. /Ludwig -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00.txt Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:19:32 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Goeran Selander , "Ludwig Seitz"=20 , "Goran Selander" ,=20 "Stefanie Gerdes" , Stefanie Gerdes ,=20 Ludwig Seitz A new version of I-D, draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Ludwig Seitz and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-seitz-ace-usecases Revision: 00 Title: ACE use cases Document date: 2014-02-10 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 19 URL:=20 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-usecases= / Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00 Abstract: This document presents use cases for authentication and access control in scenarios involving constrained RESTful devices. Where specific details are relevant, it is assumed that the devices use CoAP as communication protocol, however most conclusions apply generally. A number of security requirements are derived from the use cases, which are intended as a guideline for developing a comprehensive authentication and access control approach for this class of scenarios. =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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/bd54K0IXnXh0hF7Dm1iSnRCZAYBcsNihztlHHKmukNswsnUX78aF9pY2HPsGwAlRhgHc1UO RL5W0dubI+Dx+xoL7zw4aYXwmiq6ZH9/NSiCOZLXW77Inxof2/Xq4Xw6dmD14LauyzaN7diR WBJhkI13eOWhpjrlcYowKOGenmTIC+uj6Yaf4ET1AN7lVnEIxwusvFt/7AAAAAAAAA== --------------ms010304040608010305040200-- From likepeng@huawei.com Wed Feb 12 01:18:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DE31A08BA for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:18:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id abMgrIRoRv9m for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:18:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7928B1A08AB for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDM83842; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:18:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:17:03 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.37) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:18:00 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 17:17:56 +0800 From: Likepeng To: Ludwig Seitz , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter Thread-Index: AQHPI/khs6Jb64qr7EyB1+x3u+RdR5qpOwqAgAFw5kCAAu7/gIADws2g Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:17:55 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE9DE6@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE84FB@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <87y51ntao5.fsf@tzi.org> <52F4D8E1.9010605@sics.se> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AE8A07@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <52F88451.4060002@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <52F88451.4060002@sics.se> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.71.203] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:18:11 -0000 PkhvdyBhYm91dCAiRGVmaW5lIHByb2ZpbGVzIGZvciBlbmNvZGluZyBhdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBh bmQgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiBkYXRhIiAgPw0KDQpGaW5lIHdpdGggbWUuDQoNCkFueSBvdGhlciBm ZWVkYmFjaz8NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KS2luZCBSZWdhcmRzDQpLZXBlbmcNCg0KLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bl jp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBBY2UgW21haWx0bzphY2UtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g 5Luj6KGoIEx1ZHdpZyBTZWl0eg0K5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE05bm0MuaciDEw5pelIDg6NDkN CuaUtuS7tuS6ujogYWNlQGlldGYub3JnDQrkuLvpopg6IFJlOiBbQWNlXSBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBv ZiBQcm9wb3NlZCBDaGFydGVyDQoNCk9uIDAyLzA4LzIwMTQgMDQ6MDMgQU0sIExpa2VwZW5nIHdy b3RlOg0KPiBIaSBMdWR3aWcsDQo+DQo+PiBzbyB0aGlzIHRleHQgZG9lcyBpbmRlZWQgc3VnZ2Vz dCBhIHNwZWNpZmljIHRlY2huaWNhbCBzb2x1dGlvbiwgYW5kIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgaXQgc2hv 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smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C69F79F3; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 07:26:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 07:26:42 +0100 From: Olaf Bergmann To: Likepeng MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: Ludwig Seitz , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 06:27:05 -0000 Ck9uIEZlYiAxMiwgMjAxNCAxMDoxNyBBTSwgTGlrZXBlbmcgPGxpa2VwZW5nQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+ IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4gPkhvdyBhYm91dCAiRGVmaW5lIHByb2ZpbGVzIGZvciBlbmNvZGluZyBhdXRo ZW50aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgYXV0aG9yaXphdGlvbiBkYXRhIsKgID8gCj4KPiBGaW5lIHdpdGggbWUu IAo+Cj4gQW55IG90aGVyIGZlZWRiYWNrPwoKQWdyZWUKCkdydWVzc2UKT2xhZgoKPiBUaGFua3Ms 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dWxkIGJlIHByb2ZpbGVkIHRvIHJlc3RyaWN0IGl0IHRvIHNvbWUgY29tcGFjdCByZXByZXNlbnRh dGlvbi4gCj4KPiAvTHVkd2lnIAo= From mcr@sandelman.ca Thu Feb 13 05:53:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BBC1A0269 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:53:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_MIME_NO_TEXT=0.01, T_TVD_MIME_NO_HEADERS=0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jyhLn60GahwR for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629331A0276 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B10E62003B for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:10:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 184E5647C9; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 08:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0911E63AB2 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 08:53:15 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ace X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:53:23 -0000 --=-=-= I have just read draft-selander-core-access-control-01 and draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-01. (I think that I read them because they were mentioned as background for ace, but my reading list doesn't actually record why I'm suppposed to read drafts...) Question 1 are these competing proposals, or is X more of a requirements, and Y more of a protocol? Question 2: in dcaf-01, section 4, Face and Ticket. It seems like the Face should go to the Client, and Ticket should go to the RS. The text implies the opposite, or at least is perhaps written from the point of view of the node which verifies things. If it is correctly written, then it seems that the RS has to keep track of all the clients, and the clients just need to keep track of a single DTLS PSK. Comment on dcaf-01: I think that there may be too many MAYs that will affect interoperability. I noticed this first in section 4.1 about timestamps. Section 5, says the AI definition is out of scope. Where will it be *in* scope? It seems to be a URLish kind of thing in one example, and a json object in another. I like section 8. thank you for including section 10. this is a very mature document. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUvzOSoqHRg3pndX9AQIZhgQA4sXMDH/3k3nAOx5iCYaPibXkHjzp/9Q7 xnFrac6a74fpmpHp9OlWS1IuPSj93jBc+qBwqNpOLW8MwmkcALkkx6QpUahs2Qzi hQuXph7bFy+77l1zhiF2fiKKeyD72/fyOVyrQ3bZFW+/PPBVEi5NmtdF9l89L/tz hgDS3BufVwU= =Kn5d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From ludwig@sics.se Thu Feb 13 06:14:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE061A02A5 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 06:14:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rEpuwG9T4HEl for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 06:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 065171A0273 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 06:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1DEADeO018918 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:14:09 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1hw0g9g4wj-1 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:14:09 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C4F4B40116 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:14:09 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52FCD331.7080509@sics.se> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:14:09 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070705060304050109060007" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-13_04:2014-02-13,2014-02-13,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402130057 Subject: Re: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:14:15 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070705060304050109060007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/13/2014 02:53 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > I have just read draft-selander-core-access-control-01 and > draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-01. > > (I think that I read them because they were mentioned as background for= ace, > but my reading list doesn't actually record why I'm suppposed to read > drafts...) > > Question 1 are these competing proposals, or is X more of a requirement= s, and > Y more of a protocol? > My personal take as a co-author is this: Originally you could call them competing proposals (draft versions 00),=20 but we decided to try and align them as far as possible, where=20 draft-selander is supposed present the high level concepts and=20 rationales (as informational draft) and dcaf would be one proposal of=20 how to implement these. I daresay we agree on the general principles but our opinions diverge in = some of the details. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms070705060304050109060007 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zkdbd4KKQhJ1 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 06:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755EB1A02A4 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 06:40:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1DEeZXQ011605; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:40:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.101] (p548904E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.4.224]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E5F7BE18; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:40:34 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:40:32 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <354BB6EC-E38A-45D1-8454-96B214AED7DF@tzi.org> References: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: ace Subject: Re: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:46 -0000 On 13 Feb 2014, at 14:53, Michael Richardson = wrote: > Section 5, says the AI definition is out of scope. Where will it be = *in* > scope? It seems to be a URLish kind of thing in one example, and a = json > object in another. We were trying for a separation of concerns here. A strawman AIF is in draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-00.txt We hope this can evolve on a separate timeline from DCAF itself, and = stay pluggable for more complex requirements. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From gerdes@tzi.de Thu Feb 13 08:34:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46ED1A0333 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 08:34:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sHNSJ2ro_CQ1 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 08:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A191A0330 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 08:34:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1DGYnPH000869; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:34:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.146] (p54BC4859.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.188.72.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 17A2AF09; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:34:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52FCF428.8080002@tzi.de> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:34:48 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson , ace References: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:35:00 -0000 On 02/13/2014 02:53 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Question 2: in dcaf-01, section 4, Face and Ticket. It seems like > the Face should go to the Client, and Ticket should go to the RS. > The text implies the opposite, or at least is perhaps written from > the point of view of the node which verifies things. If it is > correctly written, then it seems that the RS has to keep track of > all the clients, and the clients just need to keep track of a > single DTLS PSK. The Face goes to RS, the Verifier goes to the Client. The Face and the Verifier are parts of the same ticket. RS needs the information contained in the Ticket Face to authorize the client and RS must be sure that AS generated the Ticket Face (RS can't make authorization decisions by itself and needs AS to do it). No additional information about the Client is needed. RS keeps the Ticket Face as long as it is valid. Does that answer your question? Best regards, Steffi From nobody Fri Feb 14 07:02:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC231A0293 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:02:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRdbJ27fAkny for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24DC41A026E for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from authenticated sender schmitt by ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (postfix) with ESMTPSA id SA for ; ace@ietf.org Message-ID: <52FE2FFB.7060009@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 16:02:19 +0100 From: Corinna Schmitt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ace@ietf.org" References: <20140214145835.13043.29152.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140214145835.13043.29152.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140214145835.13043.29152.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000607010803070202090502" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at ladislav X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/740XAPRqZjFyaA2mJ_jr-t5SUDI Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 15:02:26 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000607010803070202090502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo together, based on discussions in Vancouver and offline we created a new draft focusing on x.509 certificates for CoAP. It is just a rudimentary version but will be improved soon. We - the authors - look forward to your feedback. Regards, Pawani, Andrei, Steffi, and Corinna -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: New Version Notification for draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt Datum: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 06:58:35 -0800 Von: internet-drafts@ietf.org An: Corinna Schmitt , Pawani Porambage , Corinna Schmitt , Andrei Gurtov , Stefanie Gerdes , Pawani Porambage , Andrei Gurtov , Stefanie Gerdes A new version of I-D, draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Corinna Schmitt and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-porambage-core-ace-x509 Revision: 00 Title: X.509 Public Key Infrastructure Certificates for the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) Document date: 2014-02-14 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 7 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-porambage-core-ace-x509/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00 Abstract: The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) is a web transfer protocol designed for resource limited nodes in constrained networks. For securing the protocol, CoAP defines a binding to Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) with four security modes. One of them is the Certificate mode where the device has an asymmetric key pair with an X.509 certificate. However, the intrinsic properties of x.509 certificates impede the application on the resource constrained nodes. This draft describes the necessary adjustments and derives a modified profile for X.509 certificates to cope with the resource limitations of low-power low-performing devices Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat -- --------------000607010803070202090502 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------090307040606020809050204" --------------090307040606020809050204 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo together,

based on discussions in Vancouver and offline we created a new draft focusing on x.509 certificates for CoAP.
It is just a rudimentary version but will be improved soon.

We - the authors - look forward to your feedback.

Regards,
Pawani, Andrei, Steffi, and Corinna


-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Betreff: New Version Notification for draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt
Datum: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 06:58:35 -0800
Von: internet-drafts@ietf.org
An: Corinna Schmitt <schmitt@ifi.uzh.ch>, Pawani Porambage <pporamba@ee.oulu.fi>, Corinna Schmitt <schmitt@ifi.uzh.ch>, Andrei Gurtov <gurtov@hiit.fi>, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.org>, Pawani Porambage <pporamba@ee.oulu.fi>, Andrei Gurtov <gurtov@hiit.fi>, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.org> 


A new version of I-D, draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Corinna Schmitt and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-porambage-core-ace-x509
Revision:	00
Title:		X.509 Public Key Infrastructure Certificates for the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)
Document date:	2014-02-14
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		7
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-porambage-core-ace-x509/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00


Abstract:
   The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) is a web transfer
   protocol designed for resource limited nodes in constrained networks.
   For securing the protocol, CoAP defines a binding to Datagram
   Transport Layer Security (DTLS) with four security modes.  One of
   them is the Certificate mode where the device has an asymmetric key
   pair with an X.509 certificate.  However, the intrinsic properties of
   x.509 certificates impede the application on the resource constrained
   nodes.  This draft describes the necessary adjustments and derives a
   modified profile for X.509 certificates to cope with the resource
   limitations of low-power low-performing devices

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--


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ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351C61A0242 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:09:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TqJBq2wViLE7 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBC91A022D for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:09:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1EF9f8S018857; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 16:09:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from eduroam-pool7-0484.wlan.uni-bremen.de (eduroam-pool7-0484.wlan.uni-bremen.de [134.102.113.228]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E24545A; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 16:09:40 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <52FE2FFB.7060009@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 16:09:39 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140214145835.13043.29152.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52FE2FFB.7060009@ifi.uzh.ch> To: Corinna Schmitt , pporamba@ee.oulu.fi X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/68q88l8VTBhN0dxWT4z3bqtHVPU Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 15:09:51 -0000 Hi Corinna, Hi Pawani, do the two of you see a chance to fill in some content for this document = before London? The submission reopens on Monday morning, March 3rd. Based on the plan laid out in the abstract, I think this would also be = good material for DICE. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 14 07:15:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1911A0253 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:14:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.654 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.654 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.092, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oWfYilxRP6qG for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:14:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E311A025C for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 07:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from authenticated sender schmitt by ladislav.ifi.uzh.ch (postfix) with ESMTPSA id SA for <8FAC576057>; ace@ietf.org Message-ID: <52FE32EA.5010407@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 16:14:50 +0100 From: Corinna Schmitt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <20140214145835.13043.29152.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52FE2FFB.7060009@ifi.uzh.ch> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000504040009010807000404" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at ladislav X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/bOIOQ0M0K4iFK-wP2e59hRycusQ Subject: Re: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-porambage-core-ace-x509-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 15:14:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000504040009010807000404 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Carsten, we are working on it but cannot promise it for London yet. If you have hint for us your are welcome! DICE is also a good idea. But due to discussion within BOF ACE preparation we currently prefer to mainly locate it in ACE. Regards, Corinna Am 14.02.14 16:09, schrieb Carsten Bormann: > Hi Corinna, > Hi Pawani, > > do the two of you see a chance to fill in some content for this document before London? > The submission reopens on Monday morning, March 3rd. > Based on the plan laid out in the abstract, I think this would also be good material for DICE. > > Grüße, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > -- --------------000504040009010807000404 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------030704070605090402020306" --------------030704070605090402020306 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear Carsten,

we are working on it but cannot promise it for London yet.
If you have hint for us your are welcome!

DICE is also a good idea.
But due to discussion within BOF ACE preparation we currently prefer to mainly locate it in ACE.

Regards,
Corinna


Am 14.02.14 16:09, schrieb Carsten Bormann:
Hi Corinna,
Hi Pawani,

do the two of you see a chance to fill in some content for this document before London?
The submission reopens on Monday morning, March 3rd.
Based on the plan laid out in the abstract, I think this would also be good material for DICE.

Grüße, Carsten

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--
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ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727971A01AF for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:57:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZVjZt82279Cn for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f41.google.com (mail-pa0-f41.google.com [209.85.220.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0541A02A3 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id fa1so12564754pad.14 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:57:50 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; 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\(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3F4EA0@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:57:48 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5E413A9B-2495-4A30-ABBD-7586313B2168@nymbus.net> References: <52E68012.4050502@tzi.de> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3E8E29@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <87zjmga5t9.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3EA46E@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <52E8D8CE.70202@tzi.de> <871tzq7o7s.fsf@tzi.org> <87zjm8z8ae.fsf@tzi.org> <449B1D64-C76F-49AC-A45A-C99340193950@nymbus.net> <87txcbt9tz.fsf@tzi.org> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E3F4EA0@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> To: Bert Greevenbosch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/rbdQcoykQoUFeJMY2pYBifQPTNA Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Stefanie Gerdes , Olaf Bergmann , =?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New Version of Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 17:57:56 -0000 On Feb 9, 2014, at 5:00 PM, Bert Greevenbosch = wrote: > Hi Paul, Olaf, all, >=20 > Thanks for the interesting discussion. >=20 > I agree, that if there was a public key, that public key could be used = as an identity. >=20 > A public key infrastructure indeed may be achieved without a central = server. PGP is a good example of such a de-centralised PKI. >=20 > Nevertheless, I think we should not forget that also in PGP there are = third parties guaranteeing public keys, and thus the associated = identities. So although PGP is de-centralised, it does not omit the need = for a third party. >=20 > I just want to make sure we don't get into a trap thinking that the = public key as an identity would be enough - we would have to do more. = After all, anyone can generate a public key; without guarantee such = public key / identity binding is useless. No - not at all useless. The whole point is that anyone / and device = can and should create new identities (public keys). Device setup always starts with public keys with no clear binding to = other attributes (even in X.509). As devices are introduced one to another, knowledge is learned in the = introduction and local binding of info to key is created. =20 As device create bindings of attributes to keys, this information can be = shared with peers (e.g. signed attribute attestations) SSH is an interesting worked example. Widely used, no shared secrets to = worry about for authentication. Very easy for small installations. = However, difficult to manage if many devices need common = authorization/ACL management. =20 >=20 > Maybe a bit of an open door, but I just wanted to remind us of this. = :-) Yes. Totally agree. Public keys or hashes of public keys are a starting = point =85 but any use case of interest eventually needs third party = authorization/attestation.=20 Multiple paths of architecture are possible: - raw key/hash ACLs useful starting point for many systems (e.g. SSH) - necessary starting point for bootstrapping devices without central = authority - third party signatures - SDSI/SPKI -like, names rooted by speaking key (my preference - = can be modeled with FO logic) better semantics of constraints on attribute assignment would be = significant improvement=20 - PGP like (no constraints or structure, flawed privacy ) - single naming/issuing authorities (509) - bad solution since it = does not readily support multi attribute authorities and not well suited for mixing with key centric authorization=20 - server / oracle based=20 - poll one or more servers for authorization info indexed by key = hash - authorization could also be based on other attributes associated = with key - tunnel based - effectively similar as above, but more appropriate for P2P systems trust in authorization is based on source auth bound to channel = not signature - combinations of the above Paul >=20 > Best regards, > Bert >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Paul Lambert [mailto:paul@nymbus.net] >> Sent: 09 February 2014 09:29 >> To: Olaf Bergmann >> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes; Bert Greevenbosch; Hannes Tschofenig; = ace@ietf.org; >> G=F6ran Selander >> Subject: Re: [Ace] Symmetric Keys Don't Scale ... was Aw: Re: New >> Version of Proposed Charter >>=20 >>=20 >> On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:56 AM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: >>=20 >>> Paul, >>>=20 >>> Paul Lambert writes: >>>=20 >>>> Identity should be based on the demonstrated ownership of a public >> keys. >>>=20 >>> I think this is an important point in your arguing for public keys. >> You >>> want them as identifier used in authentication. >> Yes. >>>=20 >>> First of all, as was discussed before, we should take into >> consideration >>> that the devices' identities are given by a set of attributes. >> Perhaps . this is a view. >>=20 >> Another model would be to consider that an 'identity' at it's basis >> is the set of information that can be cryptographically proven to be >> owned by only the 'speaking' device. This cryptographically >> should be a public key. >>=20 >> Public keys may be then associated with attributes that might >> include names, addresses, group membership, device >> descriptions etc. >>=20 >> Each type of attrbiute associated with a public key could have >> have a different name space and trust hierarchy. >>=20 >> So, this a is more key centric view where the public is the identity >> and attributes may subsequently be assocaited with the identity. >> The binding of attributes to a key might be by: >> - other keys signing a statement that assigns an attribute >> (e.g. a certificate like structure) >> - obtained from a trusted server >> - obtained through a cryptographically authenticated tunnel >> - other out-of-band assignment >>=20 >>> This may >>> be a set of just one element, including the public key as its value, >> in >>> some scenarios but this is not always the case. For example, a = second >>> element in this list may be the device group identifier. >> I'm arguing for the inverting your object hierarchy to start with the >> key. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> And, given that a device has some initial keying material (this is a >>> precondition for ace but how this happens is out of scope), I do not >> see >>> why there is any difference between symmetric and asymmetric keys >> Huge difference. In a truly distributed environment symmetric keys = are >> very hard to manage and distribute. >>=20 >>> (except for the additional contribution to global warming of the >> latter >>> option.) >> No. Public key cryptography should not be rejected for processing >> power. >>=20 >>> -- I completely understand the business model for chip >>> manufacturers and equipment vendors behind using asymmetric keys. >> ? >>=20 >>> And I >>> understand why these are useful when certificates and PKIX are used. >> But >>> in a distributed environment without a central authentication and >>> authorization server, what is their benefit? >> Public key authentication makes for simpler architectures and = protocols. >>=20 >> Public keys do not need a central server .. not sure what yur point = is >> here. >>=20 >> Paul >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Gruesse >>> Olaf >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ace mailing list >>> Ace@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >=20 From nobody Sat Feb 15 14:21:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52331A02E1 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:21:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.019 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_TVD_MIME_NO_HEADERS=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eXf4_V2vTgsv for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABB01A02D8 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6DC20030; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 18:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 41C18647C9; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 17:21:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C567647C8; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 17:21:30 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Stefanie Gerdes In-Reply-To: <52FCF428.8080002@tzi.de> References: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> <52FCF428.8080002@tzi.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/ttpaC5pC12O6CKqlA2PYIEUC1kM Cc: ace Subject: Re: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 22:21:35 -0000 --=-=-= Stefanie Gerdes wrote: >> Question 2: in dcaf-01, section 4, Face and Ticket. It seems like >> the Face should go to the Client, and Ticket should go to the RS. >> The text implies the opposite, or at least is perhaps written from >> the point of view of the node which verifies things. If it is >> correctly written, then it seems that the RS has to keep track of >> all the clients, and the clients just need to keep track of a >> single DTLS PSK. > The Face goes to RS, the Verifier goes to the Client. The Face and the > Verifier are parts of the same ticket. I was rather hoping that the ticket would go to the client (encrypted to the RS), and the client would present the ticket when it creates the DTLS session (somewhere in a ClientCertificate-like TLV). This would let the protocol scale better since the RS could forget about state on a LRU basis, and the clients, upon sensing that the DTLS session was gone, could recreate it. Also, while I'm kerberos expert, I would like us to at least go read the some kerberos terminology expert, and make sure that we either use consistent terms or have a mapping, and where we have terms that differ in definition, we clarify what is going on. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUv/oaoqHRg3pndX9AQKEgQQAsYJbf16mL6PvayeecjlrdXlHg2Yj8R0M YTIQ1ZBCXS6rLRI5qXNsuQJ9aa9LDeFgtAqILG+Eq2htv/GMwPJ8To98fqgTeQri PrFWaylxYf/SFph1XxC9g5ZbcKYmfPi+d1gmBysQ3ENGUINfJ2MIjWNx0l0U1TOL 0gnzXR7SiHk= =/uO1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Feb 16 05:15:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3401A01C9 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 05:15:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t-WiaA-EvHDv for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 05:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38DB1A002B for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 05:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.232] ([80.43.126.29]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MbPPQ-1WXnP50yM0-00IhOX for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 14:15:23 +0100 Message-ID: <5300B9E8.9050804@gmx.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 13:15:20 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4GPBD45gesd2i4ETWokWslqETUoWh0sv2" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:gcHhFDxzRypRhkEL3KYsIn64eQ/C275b2cgBjGoWARozhnJh0U+ b2KpSEq+N9FiFuFIBzfToSvSITxVgIYktxcvOKfUbVOCjNrRq/mCJdVcbwUp09su1S6LNyN C29lY7jPooYxBVLyb04b7LgrZfk2GxyfiN8GgRYlTt9IrMw5MnLJ5oYt+pFgvtwyes24TNa 4ww4prNGQX3sQSz3XJidQ== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/uyzPMXWwKDzxtIaWXwanQlqt2rM Subject: [Ace] draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 13:15:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --4GPBD45gesd2i4ETWokWslqETUoWh0sv2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, last Friday I have submitted a document that informs about available three party authentication and authorization protocols developed in the IETF. The described security protocols are Kerberos, OAuth, ABFAB (which builds on the AAA/EAP architecture), and the certificate/PKI model. With each protocol I provide references to the relevant specifications and a discussion about the pros & cons. As you can imagine, there was a lot of standardization work on each of these protocols and quite naturally there are many extensions available. Not all of them are relevant for the IoT context. I have not yet tried to map the features of the protocols against the use cases and requirements since those are obviously still in flux. For a future version of the document this is, however, the goal. In any case, here is the document: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00 I am looking forward to see your reaction to the document. Ciao Hannes --4GPBD45gesd2i4ETWokWslqETUoWh0sv2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTALnpAAoJEGhJURNOOiAtnFAH+gN2CIdTjYMQE95WMDNsqRzR 9UmRzFrpyYIvnUSkCyy609HOllbjRoykvR8sPzmn1TG6oLtmM6WZ1ryV+lPUqLHZ ynnvPi/5YoWCsLxC0nzVvduoTZO8U7W21lpbmMykCMycxpq55BFidui1Q/uZBESp rcAIMYRftiCD/bH77UR5LBQioy9LAB7LAOho4t8zSbcuf9/fPY8ttmtayr6sDk/y X84rb5i1pjgTkBWcOuIw0ApBNxax939CA53n5pcb2E/pnKbK6Zl26rbArjV+Y7M+ 03PzUdlQcwBKpU0MwbZrvEMbV12pgS+973qlt7VX8ZaAy/BVjl+fvdjz2zyaNbc= =xaSS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4GPBD45gesd2i4ETWokWslqETUoWh0sv2-- From nobody Sun Feb 16 09:41:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3CC1A014C for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 09:41:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQIhwOddXn3R for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 09:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4D41A0016 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 09:41:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1GHfGtZ015157; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 18:41:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (p508A7F12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.138.127.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D2226815; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 18:41:15 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Michael Richardson References: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> <52FCF428.8080002@tzi.de> <29347.1392502890@sandelman.ca> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 18:41:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: <29347.1392502890@sandelman.ca> (Michael Richardson's message of "Sat, 15 Feb 2014 17:21:30 -0500") Message-ID: <87ha7zoszo.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/oFwmTp8e4YId26ATk6x34iMDCEk Cc: Stefanie Gerdes , ace Subject: Re: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 17:41:25 -0000 Michael, Michael Richardson writes: > Stefanie Gerdes wrote: > >> Question 2: in dcaf-01, section 4, Face and Ticket. It seems like > >> the Face should go to the Client, and Ticket should go to the RS. > >> The text implies the opposite, or at least is perhaps written from > >> the point of view of the node which verifies things. If it is > >> correctly written, then it seems that the RS has to keep track of > >> all the clients, and the clients just need to keep track of a > >> single DTLS PSK. > > > The Face goes to RS, the Verifier goes to the Client. The Face and the > > Verifier are parts of the same ticket. > > I was rather hoping that the ticket would go to the client (encrypted to the > RS), and the client would present the ticket when it creates the DTLS session > (somewhere in a ClientCertificate-like TLV). This is exactly what happens (though encryption of the ticket Face is optional -- we had a discussion with Ludwig Seitz who convinced us that there might be use cases where the client needs to know its exact authorization in case it has asked for more than it actually needs in the first place). > This would let the protocol scale better since the RS could forget about > state on a LRU basis, and the clients, upon sensing that the DTLS session was > gone, could recreate it. RS keeps state (i.e. stores the authorization information contained in the ticket face) as long as the DTLS session exsists and the ticket is valid. It needs to keep it this duration to be able to check authorization for each request that is sent over this DTLS channel (and for each notification generated for observed resources). We had two reasons for designing it this way: 1. RS needs to store authorization information for the client anyway to enable observe. Notification should not be sent to the client when the ticket has expired or the DTLS session has been terminated. 2. Presenting the ticket with every CoAP request from the client would enlarge the message size significantly -- potentially leading to message fragmentation. > Also, while I'm kerberos expert, I would like us to at least go read the some > kerberos terminology expert, and make sure that we either use consistent > terms or have a mapping, and where we have terms that differ in definition, > we clarify what is going on. We tried to avoid using any kerberos terminology at all to avoid confusion. Gruesse Olaf From nobody Sun Feb 16 10:55:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3281A0221 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:55:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kRiPG3-W9ryJ for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F631A020D for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:55:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BBE58989; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 18:55:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 18:55:21 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.33) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 18:55:24 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 02:55:18 +0800 From: Likepeng To: "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Updated ACE Charter V0.4 Thread-Index: Ac8rSKs9gXGsW7RcRnGZlXnYAcqmpQ== Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 18:55:18 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AEBB31@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: 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ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81961A044D for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:52:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ufjg6NzJPnDd for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD92A1A0448 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1H7ps1C012462 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:51:54 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1j3bt9rmgx-1 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:51:53 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 059A640116 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:51:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5301BF93.9000301@sics.se> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:51:47 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ace@ietf.org" References: <20140214175949.3190.2235.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140214175949.3190.2235.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140214175949.3190.2235.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090305000801090107070202" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-16_03:2014-02-14,2014-02-16,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402160272 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/8MqoTr8gOISHd7YWFMqwDuq3G3M Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 07:52:03 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090305000801090107070202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, here is the draft I mentioned earlier, which fits (more or less) to the=20 agenda item 3. > 3. Architectural Design Choices - 30 min Note that this draft highlights some questions where we don't think that = we have enough information, but we also think they are important to make = a decision on good protocols or profiles for ACE. People with the=20 relevant expertise are more than welcome to comment or contribute. /Ludwig -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for=20 draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00.txt Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:59:49 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Ludwig Seitz , Goeran Selander=20 , Ludwig Seitz , Goran=20 Selander A new version of I-D, draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Goeran Selander and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations Revision: 00 Title: Design Considerations for Security Protocols in Constrained=20 Environments Document date: 2014-02-14 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 14 URL:=20 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations= -00.txt Status:=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations/ Htmlized:=20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00 Abstract: Considerable effort has been spent on securing existing Internet standard authentication and authorization protocols such as TLS, Kerberos, and OAuth, among others. It would save a lot of effort if these protocols could be profiled to be feasible for constrained environments, with some easily obtainable security considerations. However, these protocols were typically not designed with constrained= environments in mind, so profiling of an existing protocol may result= in a far from optimal solution. Moreover they are not necessarily complying with their original design objectives outside their intended domain of application. This document examines the impact of typical characteristics of security protocols (e.g. cryptographic calculations, number and size of protocol messages) in a constrained environment. The goal is to provide decision support when different resource usage optimizations are possible in the adaptation of a security protocol for this setting. =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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[IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A1E1A0459 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1H7uWNh016077 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:59:55 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1j3bt9rn2x-1 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:59:55 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A05A440116 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:59:55 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5301C17B.6090709@sics.se> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:59:55 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> <52FCF428.8080002@tzi.de> <29347.1392502890@sandelman.ca> <87ha7zoszo.fsf@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <87ha7zoszo.fsf@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070709010203010901000407" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-16_03:2014-02-14,2014-02-16,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402160273 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/o4yXHTpaLHfE-Qmh-jxtO_3Zv4I Subject: Re: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:00:02 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070709010203010901000407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/16/2014 06:41 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote: > Michael, > > Michael Richardson writes: > >> Stefanie Gerdes wrote: >> >> Question 2: in dcaf-01, section 4, Face and Ticket. It seems l= ike >> >> the Face should go to the Client, and Ticket should go to the = RS. >> >> The text implies the opposite, or at least is perhaps written = from >> >> the point of view of the node which verifies things. If it is= >> >> correctly written, then it seems that the RS has to keep track= of >> >> all the clients, and the clients just need to keep track of a >> >> single DTLS PSK. >> >> > The Face goes to RS, the Verifier goes to the Client. The Face = and the >> > Verifier are parts of the same ticket. >> >> I was rather hoping that the ticket would go to the client (encrypted = to the >> RS), and the client would present the ticket when it creates the DTLS = session >> (somewhere in a ClientCertificate-like TLV). > > This is exactly what happens (though encryption of the ticket Face is > optional -- we had a discussion with Ludwig Seitz who convinced us that= > there might be use cases where the client needs to know its exact > authorization in case it has asked for more than it actually needs in > the first place). > >> This would let the protocol scale better since the RS could forget abo= ut >> state on a LRU basis, and the clients, upon sensing that the DTLS sess= ion was >> gone, could recreate it. > > RS keeps state (i.e. stores the authorization information contained in > the ticket face) as long as the DTLS session exsists and the ticket is > valid. It needs to keep it this duration to be able to check > authorization for each request that is sent over this DTLS channel (and= > for each notification generated for observed resources). > > We had two reasons for designing it this way: > > 1. RS needs to store authorization information for the client anyway to= > enable observe. Notification should not be sent to the client when > the ticket has expired or the DTLS session has been terminated. > > 2. Presenting the ticket with every CoAP request from the client would > enlarge the message size significantly -- potentially leading to > message fragmentation. > >> Also, while I'm kerberos expert, I would like us to at least go read t= he some >> kerberos terminology expert, and make sure that we either use consiste= nt >> terms or have a mapping, and where we have terms that differ in defini= tion, >> we clarify what is going on. > > We tried to avoid using any kerberos terminology at all to avoid > confusion. > > Gruesse > Olaf > Also note that Kerberos is an authentication protocol, and while it=20 certainly can be extended to perform some authorization functions, this=20 is not part of the Kerberos standard (see section 1.4 RFC4120). We all agree that authenticating some property of the client is a=20 necessary first step for authorization, but lets not forget about the=20 other necessary steps .... /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms070709010203010901000407 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE 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No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CFfiHps7XUq5 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 00:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18791A0131 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 00:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1H84pbM022061 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:05:29 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1j3bt9rng4-1 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:05:29 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B68BF40116 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:05:29 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5301C2C9.9000803@sics.se> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:05:29 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AEBB31@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AEBB31@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040906030703030306090800" X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402160274 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-16_03:2014-02-14,2014-02-16,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/eRKGCqMI8u-2Oyp_d0uNJuJ_p2E Subject: Re: [Ace] Updated ACE Charter V0.4 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:05:35 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040906030703030306090800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/16/2014 07:55 PM, Likepeng wrote: > Hello all, =2E.. thank you for integrating all changes, here some minor updates: > Existing work: > > Use Cases: > =2E.. > * =E2=80=8Bhttp://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-seitz-core-sec-usecases that should now be http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-usecases and this is neither use case nor solution, but definitely aimed at ACE: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00 /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms040906030703030306090800 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAnLm1tc30QxHa9wtdVjC3NgxjLJicnccm0HD+ 1X16kPMKGvwps8F1oDhYn7jXIe46p1AuJMzLK0GIioE4JwxCFGdvpz7cg2xyTyrdBVUzSqez 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WeVqxLHq2EbN for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 00:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F5E1A0041 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 00:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1H85cn8023058 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:07:57 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1j3bt9rnpv-1 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:07:57 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE0C040116 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:07:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5301C35D.8030407@sics.se> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:07:57 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ace@ietf.org" References: <20140214175934.32518.58344.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140214175934.32518.58344.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140214175934.32518.58344.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040307050209080802090002" X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402160274 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-16_03:2014-02-14,2014-02-16,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/18YxVpZhsu-UvOaDOAJAP7FBxz0 Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-selander-core-access-control-02.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:08:04 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040307050209080802090002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, here is an update of our framework document, examining the issue of=20 fine-grain authorization. /Ludwig -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for=20 draft-selander-core-access-control-02.txt Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:59:34 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Goeran Selander , "Ludwig Seitz"=20 , "Goran Selander" , "Mohit = Sethi" , Ludwig Seitz ,=20 Mohit Sethi A new version of I-D, draft-selander-core-access-control-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Goeran Selander and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-selander-core-access-control Revision: 02 Title: Access Control Framework for Constrained Environments Document date: 2014-02-14 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 24 URL:=20 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-selander-core-access-control-02= =2Etxt Status:=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-selander-core-access-control/ Htmlized:=20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-core-access-control-02 Diff:=20 http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-selander-core-access-control-02 Abstract: The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) is a light-weight web transfer protocol designed to be used in constrained environments. Transport layer security for CoAP has been addressed with a DTLS binding for CoAP. This document describes a generic and dynamic access control framework suitable for constrained devices e.g. using CoAP and DTLS. The framework builds on well known paradigms for access control, externalizing authorization decision making to unconstrained nodes while performing authorization decision enforcement and verification of local conditions in constrained devices. =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Bl1euzpaPF7rg0m1syctp1opRy30fN2GPyI753R+3RAVhxfiv1FRsvguZjbjVTBFbZxkHn1n N3baVVMbQunmw5/iJKdsMtn1nenBbZmh4uZwyQn0l3GpHoSc3qcLn9ClJSIsyhSI0zuklR3I eQT7nd95PoPq1N5jbtH1tZnwl2UjqEdVBXKZO6r/8WRVxtNqYBy4fW98GQAAAAAAAA== --------------ms040307050209080802090002-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 01:57:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE491A0394 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 01:57:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UdH1GOlfT6ZA for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 01:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8BE1A0118 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 01:57:01 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7f038e000005d01-02-5301dcea04c4 Received: from ESESSHC014.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 99.E7.23809.AECD1035; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:56:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.152]) by ESESSHC014.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.60]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:56:57 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: "ace@ietf.org" , Ludwig Seitz , "Michael Richardson" Thread-Topic: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents Thread-Index: AQHPKML5PVoFpp8ENkW56F74mqoE1JqzKW+AgAYSPgA= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:56:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6105.1392299595@sandelman.ca> <52FCD331.7080509@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <52FCD331.7080509@sics.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrHLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6rO4zBBrOuilh8/9bDbPGq9Q6z Rc+hfnYHZo8lS34yebTM2cPs0XvsN1sAcxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxruN7xkL5vBVHP7I0sC4 hbuLkZNDQsBE4u+qBWwQtpjEhXvrgWwuDiGBQ4wSd1Z+Z4RwljBK3OhbxQxSxSbgKnHgwTsm EFtEoEDi8+oz7CC2sICbxOq1D9gg4u4SO579ZoSwrSR+HD3LCmKzCKhKfNu0FmwOr4C5xId3 s8HiQkAz1zU8AZvDKaAusWH5URYQmxHoou+n1oDtYhYQl7j1ZD4TxKUCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+ BzZHVEBP4t6juSwQcUWJj6/2MUL06kncmDqFDcK2lph5ZzILhK0tsWzha6h7BCVOznzCMoFR fBaSdbOQtM9C0j4LSfssJO0LGFlXMbLnJmbmpJcbbWIExtnBLb9VdzDeOSdyiFGag0VJnPfD W+cgIYH0xJLU7NTUgtSi+KLSnNTiQ4xMHJxSDYySAR1Rt86tvb7l1sHbkbMc8/8885ZNOLi+ Lr/odcK8n/OnFxvOmcq7oNT5kNHUE4d+xqU1vFA9MoOlr6XgF9eWmUayRo9kNXUXlsn0i7Dp SqjfeeF8XdY7RnPC++KaC4cmlK+Uei98rFVjae60tr44lw7r8NrZOhfmi2+oFkxnfPzU/Hnz 9WdKLMUZiYZazEXFiQC2urUbgQIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/TS2eFqtjt5pvmPpSpc1gkuEJPKI Subject: Re: [Ace] some questions andcomments about dcaf and documents X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:57:03 -0000 Hi On 13/02/14 15:14, "Ludwig Seitz" wrote: >On 02/13/2014 02:53 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >> I have just read draft-selander-core-access-control-01 and >> draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-01. >> >> (I think that I read them because they were mentioned as background for >>ace, >> but my reading list doesn't actually record why I'm suppposed to read >> drafts...) >> >> Question 1 are these competing proposals, or is X more of a >>requirements, and >> Y more of a protocol? >> > >My personal take as a co-author is this: > >Originally you could call them competing proposals (draft versions 00), >but we decided to try and align them as far as possible, where >draft-selander is supposed present the high level concepts and >rationales (as informational draft) and dcaf would be one proposal of >how to implement these. > >I daresay we agree on the general principles but our opinions diverge in >some of the details. > >/Ludwig In light of the new versions I would like to add a little to the relationship between the ACF and DCAF drafts. On a high level ACF and DCAF are very similar: Architecture, roles, message flow, trust model, etc. ACF provides a background and rationale for this architecture. However there are a number of remaining design choices, e.g. - New design vs re-use of existing protocol - symmetric vs asymmetric keys for authenticating client/ resource server - symmetric vs asymmetric keys for authentication of authorisation server - communication security vs object security between client/server - transport of access token in DTLS vs CoAP =20 ACF is written to allow different solutions making different choices. DCAF has made the choices and propose solution in exquisite detail. G=F6ran From nobody Mon Feb 17 02:01:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03DB1A00B6 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 02:01:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BtVLrUCt5XnE for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 02:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250EB1A03C9 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 02:01:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1HA0txs015073 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:00:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.102.218.230] (dynamic-218-c.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 81D23AAD for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:00:55 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5301DDCE.8000704@tzi.de> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:00:46 +0100 From: Stefanie Gerdes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ace@ietf.org" References: <20140214224025.19378.78683.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140214224025.19378.78683.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140214224025.19378.78683.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/IAhDQuvGXaew0DcfBldM_Xjlzp4 Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-02.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:01:07 -0000 Hi all, we submitted a new version of DCAF last Friday. The main change is that we included a mechanism for updating the authorization information. Additionally, the client identifier was removed to avoid misunderstandings. Instead, a descriptive label was added. Please find below the announcement of our draft submission. Best regards, Steffi -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-02.txt Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:40:25 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Dr. Carsten Bormann , Stefanie Gerdes , Olaf Bergmann , Stefanie Gerdes , Olaf Bergmann , Carsten Bormann A new version of I-D, draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Stefanie Gerdes and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize Revision: 02 Title: Delegated CoAP Authentication and Authorization Framework (DCAF) Document date: 2014-02-14 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 32 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-02 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-gerdes-core-dcaf-authorize-02 Abstract: This specification defines a protocol for delegating client authentication and authorization in a constrained environment for establishing a Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) channel between resource-constrained nodes. The protocol relies on DTLS to transfer authorization information and shared secrets for symmetric cryptography between entities in a constrained network. A resource- constrained node can use this protocol to delegate authentication of communication peers and management of authorization information to a trusted host with less severe limitations regarding processing power and memory. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Feb 17 03:02:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0A31A011E for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 03:02:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LTy0aRqeVYfN for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 03:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE871A010C for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 03:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDR03557; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:02:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:02:03 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.35) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:02:09 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.66]) by SZXEMA403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 19:02:04 +0800 From: Likepeng To: Ludwig Seitz , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Updated ACE Charter V0.4 Thread-Index: Ac8rSKs9gXGsW7RcRnGZlXnYAcqmpQAK0w6AABZdvgA= Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:02:04 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AEBF46@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AEBB31@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> <5301C2C9.9000803@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <5301C2C9.9000803@sics.se> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.80.110] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/P3yJERzwgDRFrqyt4YpA_6xyuU0 Subject: Re: [Ace] Updated ACE Charter V0.4 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:02:15 -0000 PnRoYXQgc2hvdWxkIG5vdyBiZTogaHR0cDovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtc2Vp dHotYWNlLXVzZWNhc2VzDQoNCk9LLCBjaGFuZ2VkLg0KDQo+YW5kIHRoaXMgaXMgbmVpdGhlciB1 c2UgY2FzZSBub3Igc29sdXRpb24sIGJ1dCBkZWZpbml0ZWx5IGFpbWVkIGF0IEFDRToNCj5odHRw Oi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1zZWl0ei1hY2UtZGVzaWduLWNvbnNpZGVyYXRp b25zLTAwDQoNCkl0IHNlZW1zIHRvIGJlIHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gc29sdXRpb24gZGVzaWduIGNvbnNp ZGVyYXRpb25zLiBMZXQncyBwdXQgaXQgaW4gc29sdXRpb24gZm9yIG5vdy4gDQoNClRoYW5rcywN Cg0KS2luZCBSZWdhcmRzDQpLZXBlbmcNCg0KLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu2 5Lq6OiBBY2UgW21haWx0bzphY2UtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj6KGoIEx1ZHdpZyBTZWl0 eg0K5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE05bm0MuaciDE35pelIDk6MDUNCuaUtuS7tuS6ujogYWNlQGll dGYub3JnDQrkuLvpopg6IFJlOiBbQWNlXSBVcGRhdGVkIEFDRSBDaGFydGVyIFYwLjQNCg0KT24g MDIvMTYvMjAxNCAwNzo1NSBQTSwgTGlrZXBlbmcgd3JvdGU6DQo+IEhlbGxvIGFsbCwNCi4uLg0K DQp0aGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIGludGVncmF0aW5nIGFsbCBjaGFuZ2VzLCBoZXJlIHNvbWUgbWlub3Ig dXBkYXRlczoNCg0KPiBFeGlzdGluZyB3b3JrOg0KPg0KPiBVc2UgQ2FzZXM6DQo+DQouLi4NCj4g ICAqIOKAi2h0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pZC9kcmFmdC1zZWl0ei1jb3JlLXNlYy11c2Vj YXNlcw0KdGhhdCBzaG91bGQgbm93IGJlDQpodHRwOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFm dC1zZWl0ei1hY2UtdXNlY2FzZXMNCg0KDQphbmQgdGhpcyBpcyBuZWl0aGVyIHVzZSBjYXNlIG5v ciBzb2x1dGlvbiwgYnV0IGRlZmluaXRlbHkgYWltZWQgYXQgQUNFOg0KaHR0cDovL3Rvb2xzLmll dGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtc2VpdHotYWNlLWRlc2lnbi1jb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucy0wMA0KDQoN Ci9MdWR3aWcNCg0KLS0gDQpMdWR3aWcgU2VpdHosIFBoRA0KU0lDUyBTd2VkaXNoIElDVCBBQg0K SWRlb24gU2NpZW5jZSBQYXJrDQpCdWlsZGluZyBCZXRhIDINClNjaGVlbGV2w6RnZW4gMTcNClNF LTIyMyA3MCBMdW5kDQoNClBob25lICs0NigwKTcwLTM0OSA5MiA1MQ0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zaWNz LnNlDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Feb 19 06:45:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C2F1A05DE for ; 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Wed, 19 Feb 2014 15:44:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5304C361.3030306@sics.se> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 15:44:49 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org, Hannes Tschofenig References: <5300B9E8.9050804@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <5300B9E8.9050804@gmx.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060005070506060401050609" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-19_03:2014-02-18,2014-02-19,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=9 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402190066 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/WVDfyFsjXln-wrOKqNvAO4Wi_aU Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:45:00 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060005070506060401050609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/16/2014 02:15 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi all, > > last Friday I have submitted a document that informs about available > three party authentication and authorization protocols developed in the= > IETF. > > The described security protocols are Kerberos, OAuth, ABFAB (which > builds on the AAA/EAP architecture), and the certificate/PKI model. > With each protocol I provide references to the relevant specifications > and a discussion about the pros & cons. As you can imagine, there was a= > lot of standardization work on each of these protocols and quite > naturally there are many extensions available. Not all of them are > relevant for the IoT context. > > I have not yet tried to map the features of the protocols against the > use cases and requirements since those are obviously still in flux. For= > a future version of the document this is, however, the goal. > > In any case, here is the document: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00 > > I am looking forward to see your reaction to the document. > > Ciao > Hannes > A quick comment about this part of section 3 : > It is, however, also worth noting that several aspects that are not > discussed in this document although they appear as requirements in > the use case document, namely > > o a language for describing access control policies, > > o the encoding of these policies, and > > o the container for associating these policies with keying material= =2E The use case document does not (and did never) require standardization=20 of a language to describe access control policies. Which part of the=20 document makes you think it does? I guess what you had in mind where the authorization tokens, mentioned=20 in draft-selander and draft-gerdes (and which are not mentioned in the=20 use case document). By my understanding, these tokens describe access control decisions and=20 not access control policies (and I said so earlier). I think we should standardize a representation of access control=20 decisions but _not_ the underlying policies that lead to these decisions= =2E /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms060005070506060401050609 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE0MDEwNzA3MjgzNVoXDTE1MDEwNzEyNTgyMlowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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ZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNz IDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlhdGUgQ2xpZW50IENBAgMIkU4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAE ggEAatauGnnUdMyGIc33zg5T2RplCfObIOJSx8UPJ5M6wJwfZLI+6l9reM3ELKncTGkCjhZB +9ZuHmcJ3yGSN0RG8XkX/VGjZnQo4AwZgA1GpovNWhaS5z6q0Sn5vvL0HMQU4UG2HsvK0MKL CViTFPC6wOhaE2oyAexmQbayj3svoyq1TjZTx93WwKp1mca+ScXY8bbW5Qe4KYke6oiL6I+f 1PGN8VlO4EYFujlKJ8hO29r1fV2nCPTi45P9B45rg3CohT8TzmQv+hkz8G26PwyD4XqqlfJg cRLzzcJ2CdW54nEjz7ppfi4eMAFSSIFQAVwsdYxTlY42cA8//73ghF+6qwAAAAAAAA== --------------ms060005070506060401050609-- From nobody Thu Feb 20 04:23:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803671A012D for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:23:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oxmQo4TvTvE8 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from hauke-m.de (Hauke-2-pt.tunnel.tserv6.fra1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f0a:465::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485E91A012F for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 04:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hauke-m.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0537E24 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:23:42 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hauke-m.de Received: from hauke-m.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hauke-m.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zqKlGCq3nHKy for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:23:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:638:708:30da:389c:d9bf:87fa:6c1c] (unknown [IPv6:2001:638:708:30da:389c:d9bf:87fa:6c1c]) by hauke-m.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EC7CC7E23 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:23:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:23:41 +0100 From: Hauke Mehrtens User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/TcsfsuUPnMJIFQTNaGsHGpL--jI Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 12:23:47 -0000 Hi, We submitted a proposal for a new kind of certificate suited for constrained environments. It should provide similar features as X.509 does, but only suited for TLS and DTLS usage. The draft is in an early state. We would like to get some comments on this idea. Best regards, Hauke -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 15:54:46 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Hauke Mehrtens , "Hauke Mehrtens" A new version of I-D, draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Hauke Mehrtens and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert Revision: 00 Title: Constrained Certificates for the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) Document date: 2014-02-14 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 12 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00 Abstract: The present document defines a new kind of certificate suited for constrained environments. This new kind of certificate is intended to be used in Transport Layer Security (TLS) and Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) in combination with Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP). Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Thu Feb 20 20:06:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005BF1A03F3 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:06:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EUe8yjY7GH9a for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f47.google.com (mail-pb0-f47.google.com [209.85.160.47]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5951A03F0 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f47.google.com with SMTP id rp16so2868647pbb.34 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:06:28 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=SidwUi0EAVxFfzoUlva+AWZbs2gP8zsVThvFJsdRUUs=; b=W1z9NbOX1daRK1ANSRYxK2uPwVUjQKsqga49omBx8VHTv3xjrnOZ+CypBNRJNwDMxt UMa9hVwZV502W8EnAXhJ5k5WxtN2do8CzTsG9Mm+64rIEHJcaP2j6kSq47qfCfqxR/0b fciiktlcFtQBl0mA4aO/msv4rM5NF5vtoeDdLTsyNlnG3HocQvqPcuOZ8o9W4SI37yng ex/yBkdGut70MK9tEQMFMbJhqEeEKROktigBPPSCC5KvCoWAirrwr1SJDKibHmILQIB9 mHgExDegai80yXl4lMlKWxXGD8lG47ld3fWCuDAC1ZVrLFHwOu8QMxPhuYlrxcDlBzxO LVKw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmCGAfeg6N/Tse/CXSQr0COjgvLNH5z0o6lZbAJkoXlZyqXcC13bg2FLBIBBkfKAssoEB09 X-Received: by 10.68.170.66 with SMTP id ak2mr6482010pbc.5.1392955588098; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id db3sm16534186pbb.10.2014.02.20.20.06.27 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:06:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:06:26 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> To: Hauke Mehrtens X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/RSUQ7P5D2Vs3Kt2YdtWsOAleaKc Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version Notification for draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 04:06:34 -0000 On Feb 20, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Hauke Mehrtens wrote: > Hi, >=20 > We submitted a proposal for a new kind of certificate suited for > constrained environments. It should provide similar features as X.509 > does, but only suited for TLS and DTLS usage. The draft is in an early > state. >=20 > We would like to get some comments on this idea. "The serialNumber should be used by an issuer to store additional data like a serial number to do certificate revocation or to add some additional entropy to the certificate.=94 Not well specified. Extra entropy not necessary. serialNumber in general not a well formed concept to use. "The issuer element must contain a named information defined in [RFC6920], which is a SHA-256 hash over the issuer's public key or part of it. It is used to identify the issuer certificate. The element is tagged with the hash algorithm used to create the hash. Pick something specific (not =93or part of it=94) "There are no secure hash algorithms needed, because a collision will not weaken the security, it will just prevent the issuer from being found." Delete - wrong. SubjectName ::=3D CHOICE { IPv4 byte string, IPv6 byte string, dns utf-8 string } What CAs have authority to issue which blocks of IPv4?? What of the issuer certs look like? Are there any constraints on level = or dns range? Paul >=20 > Best regards, > Hauke >=20 > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 15:54:46 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Hauke Mehrtens , "Hauke Mehrtens" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Hauke Mehrtens and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert > Revision: 00 > Title: Constrained Certificates for the Constrained = Application > Protocol (CoAP) > Document date: 2014-02-14 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 12 > URL: > = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt= > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert/ > Htmlized: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > The present document defines a new kind of certificate suited for > constrained environments. This new kind of certificate is intended > to be used in Transport Layer Security (TLS) and Datagram Transport > Layer Security (DTLS) in combination with Constrained Application > Protocol (CoAP). >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From nobody Sat Feb 22 00:56:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82AF1A001A for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 00:56:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q5hxvLIfmd99 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 00:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBEF1A03CC for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 00:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.240] ([80.92.123.114]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MCtLD-1WQiuN0Re7-009g1j for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 09:56:36 +0100 Message-ID: <53086642.5050609@gmx.net> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 08:56:34 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xU6BCg4cP78ERUCSkVLOW1Ix1ajbsCLBQ" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:mYGyCQXFY+NcyBZY3qOtZrNjAWFF35R8x8ufr1q2RvtqbdrUzSx GKLBjIKS+ZSJuFz4UGgMOXGl+imRDMCLNOodMXin904ADVkZF1FSZrXmhiog2cbMGfG+Wma AORkVHgMdoYCF8mNNLqXRuD6mL/+ZsXCYAjnpjpDF5Gmc8US4yc+h5M9owVJHN9azNsosNa ZqG7Vvb1iihXTaOiQjb+w== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/8te9Wiy4hArQdnytSpM2AXwzl-Q Subject: [Ace] draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot-02 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 08:56:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --xU6BCg4cP78ERUCSkVLOW1Ix1ajbsCLBQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Corinna, Hi Burkhard, thanks for your document. I have read through it and I ran into a few questions. Your response would help me to better understand the proposed idea. 1) Why do you assume IEEE 802.15.4? Currently it seems that the 15.4 radio will mostly be used in specialized industry segments only. Is there anything in the document that would make the idea less suitable for other radio technologies, for example BTLE? 2) The assumed network stack does not show 6lowpan. Was this intentional?= 3) You show RPL in the stack and I was wondering whether you assume it being mandatory to implement for your assumed architecture? It does not seem to show up elsewhere in the document. It appears to be irrelevant for your design. 4) Subscriber identity: You write -- " The identity of a default subscriber is usually preconfigured on a publisher before it is deployed. " Could you explain more what you assume is pre-configured and where it is preconfigured? I would also suggest to avoid the term subscriber since it has two other meanings that might confuse: a) The term subscriber is often used in context of telecommunication as the user who has a contract with a telecommunication operator. b) The second use is in context of protocols that use asynchronous communication (like XMPP). I believe your notion of subscriber does not relate to those two existing uses. I guess you are more using the term subscriber to refer to a device that wants some data from a sensor. Is this correct? 5) Roles in your architecture. It seems that you assume that the IoT devices are publishers and that there are subscribers who talk to these publishers. In some other cases I have seen architectures where the IoT devices (sensors) upload the data to some servers without having to act as servers themselves. In your architecture it feels like the sensor nodes implement the server-side functionality In Section 4.2.2 you write that you recommend an OpenSSL implementation on the server side but the server-side would be the IoT device. While it would be inappropriate to recommend a specific implementation in an IETF draft/RFC it also raises the questions about the expectations on the server-side. 6. Certificate content In Section 4.2.2 you describe the content of a certificate and you indicate that the commonName is set to "localhost". It seems to be useless to include this in the certificate since a CA would not be able to verify this identity information nor would any party verifying it be able to use it in a meaningful way. It also seems to be in violation of what you write in Section 5.2 where you state that "every publisher in the network MUST have an unique identity.". You also indicated more complete information for inclusion in the certificate but it is not clear to me what purpose it serves. Could you explain? 7. Privacy In Section 5 you indicate some privacy related aspects and you hint to " access regulations based on legal and regulative implications". Could you briefly explain what those requirements are? 8. Use Cases. I suggest to omit the use cases from the document since the description is too brief to be useful. A small remark: From my work in the emergency services environment I had gotten the impression that there are no plans to take sensor input directly when initiating alerts. In fact, sensor alerts do rarely even get directly to the emergency services authorities but are rather pre-processed by an intermediate organization (by humans). Maybe you have spoken with other people, who have different plans. Where did you got your information from? 9. Architecture Figure 3 shows the architecture but it is a bit confusing since it is not clear what the boxes and the lines mean. The publisher is a box separate from the sensors and from the earlier description I thought that the sensors are actually the publishers. Furthermore, the gateway was not discussed as a role up to that point in the document. The gateway shows up in Section 5.3 and its role confuses me. You write: " A sensor node has published its data, which is transmitted in direction to the global sink (cf. Figure 3 where global sink is located in the gateway component). " Does the sensor publish the data at the gateway? From the earlier sections I thought that the subscriber talks to the publisher instead. Is the gateway the subscriber? Why doesn't the sensor uploads the data to some server instead (which is frequently done in today's IoT deployments). Why do you call the entire document "two-way authentication" when the the two way authentication is just one small part of the overall authentication procedure. In fact the two-way authentication is used between the subscriber and the access control server (as shown in Figure 4), and between the publisher and the gateway. Furthermore, there has to be some authentication between the subscriber and the publisher as well (at least I hope so). What is the purpose of the access ticket? It shows up in Section 5.3 and I wonder why there is a need for an access ticket when the two parties (subscriber and publisher) already have a certificate. Why cannot you use the certificate for authentication with the publisher right away? Where do you see the access control server being deployed? Is this an entity in the local network or something you would have on the Internet? Why does the publisher have to authenticate to the gateway? From Figure 4 it is not clear whether the gateway is just an optional component or an integral part of the architecture. The document does not explain what the access token is and how it is exchanged between the subscriber and the publisher. Btw, the term CA standards for Certification Authority rather than Certificate Authority. 10. Hardware requirements. Hardware requirements typically are not appropriate for IETF documents. While you make the argument that an RSA-based public key cryptosystem is good enough from a performance point of view the currently mandatory ciphersuites used in CoAP are based on ECC (for those that rely on asymmetric crypto). While having hardware support for key storage is a great idea I was wondering how much your architecture actually relies on it. My impression that it would work fine just without a TPM chip. But you might have more hardware experience than I have. Could you point me to some hardware that you have in mind using? Ciao Hannes --xU6BCg4cP78ERUCSkVLOW1Ix1ajbsCLBQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTCGZCAAoJEGhJURNOOiAtEPgH/j2JSFUskifdHdZoP0gigmD2 lrueJ/mW7JAqFXpLGGc7stl71jszEPQcfCn7ePIyjb0jE0Q1obsdOhrJ0ilyncVp EkDv9kGp3J/isE1wCiFBURJD19sI/9nTCJVQwzxxmCjGA2TQJ/fxQLSMX32DiGxg 2gdeLB+x1GGAB0bEzKo+e9QB6ZSHHAW5uzwBWDhJs0smYvpPz0atUpOBcU1KSIRC otg16+PVX8Tq8Ih0tlgpVzLGsiVfiu+lwEEWo9YVAmswD49JfvDXIJ92QeB+Se4X HRLb5NL9OOj9a4qDpW2bX9gRf2PROnBuviwgPCSnt8sSR6DFQ5j/O9c5clPNJ2E= =fhZW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xU6BCg4cP78ERUCSkVLOW1Ix1ajbsCLBQ-- From nobody Sat Feb 22 03:56:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885F21A00D4 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 03:56:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.075 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.075 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o0ASWbZUXDMH for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 03:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.176.64.232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BF46F1A0051 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 03:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.20.21]) by rmmx-oa_allagent01-12001 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee153088fff0bd-580bd; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 19:54:39 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee153088fff0bd-580bd Received: from [192.168.0.101] (unknown[222.130.243.232]) by rmsmtp-oa_rmapp03-12003 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee353088ffc29b-48806; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 19:54:39 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee353088ffc29b-48806 From: =?utf-8?B?6b2Q5pe76bmP?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F7F00C4A-CB9B-4951-A0D1-12C2508B7440" Message-Id: <8D491FAF-F57D-445D-BD7C-CE9D704BAB1D@chinamobile.com> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 19:58:52 +0800 To: ace@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/0fYLfzLmAVljCnirUAuDt08D6Jw Subject: [Ace] [ace] New Version Notification of draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 11:56:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F7F00C4A-CB9B-4951-A0D1-12C2508B7440 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Hi all, Due to the submission problem, we submitted a new version of group = authentication draft in ACE with secretary=A1=AFs help just now: = draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00. It is based on the original core draft: = draft-zhu-core-groupauth-01.=20 The main change is to introduce two new scenarios based on the comments = from Vancouver meeting.=20 Your review and comments are valuable and welcome. The information for this draft is as below: Name: draft-zhu-ace-groupauth Revision: 00 Title: Group Authentication Document date: 2014-02-08 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 12 URL: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhu-ace-groupauth/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00 Abstract The group communication is designed for the communication of Internet of Things. A threat is identified in [I-D.ietf-core-groupcomm] that current DTLS based approach is unicast oriented and there is no supporting on group authentication feature. Unicast oriented authentication will causing serious burden when a large number of terminal nodes will be involved inevitably. In another aspect, some terminals will own the same characteristics, such as owning same features, in the same place, working in the same time, etc. With this mechanism, all terminals can be authenticated together with little signaling and calculation at the same time. It will reduce the network burden and save time. This draft describes the security of group authentication and an group authentication implementation method for the Internet of things. BRs, Minpeng= --Apple-Mail=_F7F00C4A-CB9B-4951-A0D1-12C2508B7440 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Hi = all,

Due to the submission problem, we submitted a new version of = group authentication draft in ACE with secretary=A1=AFs help just now: = draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00. It is based on the original core draft: = draft-zhu-core-groupauth-01. 

The main change is = to introduce two new scenarios based on the comments from Vancouver = meeting. 

Your review and comments are = valuable and welcome.

The information for this = draft is as below:

Name: = draft-zhu-ace-groupauth
Revision: 00
Title: Group = Authentication
Document date: 2014-02-08
Group: = Individual Submission
Pages: 12
URL:
http://www.= ietf.org/id/draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00.txt
Status:
https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhu-ace-groupauth/
Htmlized:
http://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00


Abstract
   The group communication is designed for the = communication of Internet
   of Things. A threat is = identified in [I-D.ietf-core-groupcomm] that
  =  current DTLS based approach is unicast oriented and there is = no
   supporting on group authentication feature. = Unicast oriented
   authentication will causing = serious burden when a large number of
   terminal = nodes will be involved inevitably. In another aspect, = some
   terminals will own the same characteristics, = such as owning same
   features, in the same place, = working in the same time, etc. With this
  =  mechanism, all terminals can be authenticated together with = little
   signaling and calculation at the same = time. It will reduce the
   network burden and save = time. This draft describes the security of
   group = authentication and an group authentication = implementation
   method for the Internet of = things.


BRs,
Minpeng
= --Apple-Mail=_F7F00C4A-CB9B-4951-A0D1-12C2508B7440-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 02:42:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B7B1A0441 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.877 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, BAYES_999=0.2, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opZ2YzQG8lUS for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F851A0440 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs32 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:42:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:42:24 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal References: <1582748999.24919.1393238079793.JavaMail.nobody@jva2tc105.webex.com> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:FxxyHsSSvt3lNu9LgX8Rrp8xVGVd0rwfrZgL09PAc4J oGzS5y1ZDf28kLq3g+LiiYInH+iTfsvb63vaVB97QWv5tSc5FL tznwy2MxClgyYcqF1VyGcDQ1xLnOfvIbDIu/geHAhABQxUGbnN EQVBOYsQUB0BdclwZMRBBZtibbZUHmlXbujLW4DjZb02wNtJcZ Hlg1b2MgugF2ss1+Dm47kM4WtYdeBZSG1pdVP94LROEULjaN0c WXv3FtMbZOHoQBLsxratHhIaO+gk5LDrS/sQdgtDyZEO0ynk7F vhbsn4= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/awmXh3fpTGuW-BhbroyJ0l-H_tI Subject: [Ace] Kerberos Tutorial - Tuesday - Feb. 25th, 1pm GMT X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:42:28 -0000
Thomas Hardjono will give a tutorial about Kerberos in preparation for the ACE BOF. 
I hope you guys are able to join. 
 
Conference bridge details are below. 
 

-------------------------------------------------------
Meeting information
-------------------------------------------------------
Topic: Kerberos Tutorial
Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014
Time: 1:00 pm, GMT Time (London, GMT)
Meeting Number: 644 999 834
Meeting Password: kerberos

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To start or join the online meeting
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Go to https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1ece1ae3939e5d85a28b2b235160458c

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Audio conference information
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Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-650-479-3208

Access code:644 999 834

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2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support".
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From nobody Mon Feb 24 02:58:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4D71A0310 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:58:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tba4dRPBLQwx for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703311A000E for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs32 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:58:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Michael Richardson" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:58:39 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> , <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:dqVvY7TaWa3odQJp0FxFuj+kce+qFIdGTCj520GGnIL asZxtReZ7JRLY8WNrqXMAzy0bsfpp/Iv7KbP2/t7MKDi8vcuCg QvsEScr2dsct13eHTqdK8g69IFOEsYGQyg7eYqAqhY5yB6IqYW /rNWrzSh57vVOz8opEjUIIMxJ/3x/eGSHzy5EY9FnDcC+22xBW okhs09h4nXIPDpNAeM8KGxqJQREnVCW51HuvNk4rcQTwaWGmCv vSryBpt465XXD+c2K8I26mSSLsj0E2djBXleqXO4X3Ag01Uror L91Bcg= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/4uiJGkBSeerq3akfp63PrYGhRlg Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:58:47 -0000
Hi Michael, 
 
the IETF document submission deadline has passed and I noticed that there is no new version of draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture available. 
Hence, there is essentially no publically available content and I wonder how well your views are aligned with the rest of the 6tisch group. 
 
Do you understand that I am a bit nervious? 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 05. Februar 2014 um 18:11 Uhr
Von: "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
An: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF

Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
> I have not been following 6tisch nor have I looked at the 802.15.4e specification. 
>  
> It seems, however, very useful to decouple the physical layer / link layer from the higher layers. 
>  
> The security architecture document  
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture-00
> currently doesn't contain a lot of information.

No, that's just an empty document at present.

The summary of use cases:
1) authorization for a mote to join the network
2) authorization for a PCE to program a time slot schedule into the mote

One thing we have discussed, and which has precedence from
ISA100/WirelessHart is that the credentials to join the network are provided
as a part of the mote being programmed. That is, the detailed security
credentials are just yet another detail that a central authority (like the "PCE")
is going to program into the device.

We would like to be able to either create a single (D)TLS session (with a
saved rfc5077 ticket), and keep that around for further updates to both L2
and L3 configuration. (Likely using COAP/BSON or some such)

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works



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From nobody Mon Feb 24 03:13:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830981A0085 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:13:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.153 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, BAYES_999=0.2, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GLlZ4NfMBatc for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9451A0849 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs32 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:13:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:13:36 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:oB0TtyWPQ7/Et8avMKe7iuMBUBiRyWPZ7svxBUN/qmI giemo2rKdLniKLlg8fpo7SQCmOEIfOnsgTElS//33rLUlVsLUd J/pXYJdVimHESYzWv2M16aMvp5dNyNshgY03tjlXW87Y1vyYvm XlZo5F0JsfJCooo2EbfbGk4RDUpCfugu50dtRebJ4VbzivM2p+ z9j73uTSNS2Q4JKSzWsy39UiZirnuN+BKO4Wwttgyd8fgTuUhs B2lOwyv3uBNFUk/zOYs1kgLFSIRJ9liW69ktus4IbWi213QzXN 9/5mIY= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/SedgFpJUgEf1Ls3oECKOwanMNpI Subject: [Ace] draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:13:42 -0000 Hi=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I re-read the use case document and I noticed an aspect that I failed to r= ecognize earlier and I was wondering what the expected interoperability req= uirements are.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the text from Section 2.2.1:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jane is the owner of an automated home, that allows her to re= motely =C2=A0 =C2=A0control all electrical devices through a web interface or mob= ile =C2=A0 =C2=A0application. =C2=A0To allow for centralized management of all= devices, new =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices need to be able to communicate with both the web inte= rface =C2=A0 =C2=A0and the mobile application using a standardized, secure proto= col. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jane has invited over her acquaintance Jeffrey for dinner, bu= t is =C2=A0 =C2=A0stuck in traffic and can not arrive in time, while Jeffrey wh= o uses =C2=A0 =C2=A0the subway arrives punctually. =C2=A0Jane calls Jeffrey and o= ffers him to =C2=A0 =C2=A0let him in remotely, so he can make himself comfortable and u= se =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jane's home entertainment system. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jeffrey downloads an application that lets him communicate wi= th =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jane's home, and Jane set permissions for Jeffery that let's = him open =C2=A0 =C2=A0the door, and shut down the alarm using that application. =C2= =A0She also =C2=A0 =C2=A0gives Jeffrey access to lighting and HVAC and limited access = to the =C2=A0 =C2=A0home entertainment system, allowing Jeffrey to all services e= xcept =C2=A0 =C2=A0those that are pay-per-use or those that Jane has marked as p= rivate. =C2=A0 My question concerns the expected level of interoperability you are trying= to accomplish? Would Jeffrey have to download apps for all the different a= ppliances?=20 Where is this centralized management server located? Would it be a cloud s= ervice or something located in Jane's home? When Jane grants Jeffrey access= I am wondering what identifiers have been used for this purpose.=20 Ciao Hannes PS: Recently, I was sitting in a plane next to a person developing softwar= e for a big container management company. He explained me that they are usi= ng OCR to scan the container numbers and efforts to deal with RFIDs or othe= r radio technologies have been tried but have not been very convincing (mor= e expensive and less robust). I was wondering who you have been talking to = concerning the container scenario in the document. From nobody Mon Feb 24 03:20:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E2D1A03CA for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:20:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.877 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, BAYES_999=0.2, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RU1K2jZDSLDz for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DFD1A0323 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs32 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:20:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:20:32 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:MwzY3o707Ww5eQBoeam8vzhBfpRUm4CQ5jeQvuE25yw 57pBnBZn9E+erbR0FKUkaLtnXbcrPTFd5VOWOdhBLEeEwZmqH3 8uhvujfa/ll1ansvkHAKxJ7fY/HErYbLsJYNzaFi/3mWNxNW3N bCvf3yFuzgSEmq2exTm0NoPACICC7o/Ye8F3j6F3Wxj9vnqoG2 HdTJ409P6+M5ObrdwUWGkIwr2a7YNfVSiajtlup/TmA6rP6vXo Pq9EA/iQzQD2zp6C/P3I3byY0fco1QVQYSa0xjI2oGa0xvGKdb KIDmRY= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/URgNUrfiM03WNDQyjHTZy8N57jQ Subject: [Ace] draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-00 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:20:36 -0000
Hi Carsten, 
 
thanks for creating draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-00. 
 
Reading through the document I was wondering whether you have compared the functionality with other authorization system to see what the similarities and the differences are. 
It appears to me that while your proposal is simple it does not cover the basic requirements in the use case document. 
 
The model with the URI "local-part" seems attractive but assumes that there is some "agreement" between the authorization server and the resource server about the semantic of those. Do you expect that those "local URI parts" are standardized somehow? 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
PS: As an example of an alternative design please have a look at the Facebook permission API: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/facebook-login/permissions 
Instead of using URIs it uses symbolic names, which may cluster several resources together. 
From nobody Mon Feb 24 03:27:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36D01A03E4 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:27:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.149 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xVwvTcRoIv2q for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC7E1A0452 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:27:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1OBRTpU016870; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:27:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from aung.tzi.org (dynamic-218-b.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D8CCF59; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:27:29 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: "Hannes Tschofenig" References: Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:27:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Hannes Tschofenig's message of "Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:13:36 +0100") Message-ID: <87d2ic7ntr.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/Kq9pxIFd1CSwIEbvLWpFgSJ-ZxU Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:27:37 -0000 Hi Hannes, "Hannes Tschofenig" writes: > PS: Recently, I was sitting in a plane next to a person developing > software for a big container management company. He explained me that > they are using OCR to scan the container numbers and efforts to deal > with RFIDs or other radio technologies have been tried but have not > been very convincing (more expensive and less robust). I was wondering > who you have been talking to concerning the container scenario in the > document. > There is a large project on container logistics where Universit=E4t Bremen is involved for several years, see e.g. . The container use-case has been derived from discussions with several people from that project, including Markus Becker. Gruesse Olaf From nobody Mon Feb 24 03:27:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A93A1A03EF for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:27:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.177 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.177 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oHRpu9OUIsPD for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123971A07D7 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs32 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:27:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:27:36 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:8c0eyEIsHZsJTNcJV5VxIiFNMby7yhM1J3GxCYWcKkM 4K2wJ3TFemZCxQsPF47FZoQRDB9+EKhEKSxK4lqiYmAVPFevqd dLPKrN69Yeg6V7XGL1mANIFGCdD11GBlGt9xbGpmlzSk2d2i0/ triifj7a3Hk9WCVXAbWHha8uA0+CplJEKz8AivMpPLv5K5BQig NirNjD36fyVZs13bZ+fxs4C4xm2lJRZJpYUqk9h6AloqtExNv9 pql1OMQPMXeBV7o8cnoJoXxBNtwVEuHLKZc/3diKC9Vzh6lmOv l6U1yM= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/86NFNvJ6SylJbHuJ-L2jEhdg7gE Subject: [Ace] draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:27:40 -0000
Hi Hauke, 
 
I have read your document with interest. New certificate formats are always a popular topic to discuss: 
 
a) How do you expect this structure to be used? It guess you assume that a new extensions be defined for DTLS/TLS.  
b) Have you looked at the improvements you gain with this approach? Many of the X.509 certificate fields are optional anyway. You swap the ASN.1 encoding with a different encoding (the CBOR). 
c) Using IPv4/IPv6 address as the SubjectName appears wrong to me. I would have assumed that you either have a URI (for the server-side) or the MAC address 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
From nobody Mon Feb 24 03:42:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23FB1A084E for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:42:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.603 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.603 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CC1WTbSWX5Sd for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8E21A07F1 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1OBfhPL005547 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:41:54 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1j5cpnxyby-1 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:41:53 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE53D40116 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:41:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <530B3001.10404@sics.se> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:41:53 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms080200050600090107030400" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-23_03:2014-02-21,2014-02-23,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=15 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402240034 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/qJsAKCgselqFd0TpfqtttQLxqzc Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:42:04 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080200050600090107030400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/24/2014 12:13 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi > > I re-read the use case document and I noticed an aspect that I failed t= o recognize earlier and I was wondering what the expected interoperabilit= y requirements are. > > Here is the text from Section 2.2.1: > > Jane is the owner of an automated home, that allows her to remotely= > control all electrical devices through a web interface or mobile > application. To allow for centralized management of all devices, n= ew > devices need to be able to communicate with both the web interface > and the mobile application using a standardized, secure protocol. > > Jane has invited over her acquaintance Jeffrey for dinner, but is > stuck in traffic and can not arrive in time, while Jeffrey who uses= > the subway arrives punctually. Jane calls Jeffrey and offers him t= o > let him in remotely, so he can make himself comfortable and use > Jane's home entertainment system. > > Jeffrey downloads an application that lets him communicate with > Jane's home, and Jane set permissions for Jeffery that let's him op= en > the door, and shut down the alarm using that application. She also= > gives Jeffrey access to lighting and HVAC and limited access to the= > home entertainment system, allowing Jeffrey to all services except > those that are pay-per-use or those that Jane has marked as private= =2E > > My question concerns the expected level of interoperability you are try= ing to accomplish? In general I would expect that the authentication and authorization=20 mechanism should work across several manufacturers. For example if we=20 have an Authorization Server as in draft-gerdes or draft-selander, the=20 interoperability should: a.) Allow devices from different manufacturers to enforce the access=20 control decisions of the same AS (without having to translate them into=20 various proprietary formats). b.) Allow devices from different manufacturers to perform mutual=20 authentication. > Would Jeffrey have to download apps for all the different appliances? I haven't specified the use cases in that level of detail, but I was=20 assuming one comprehensive application to manage all appliances. > Where is this centralized management server located? Would it be a clou= d > service or something located in Jane's home? Again the use case does not go to this level of detail. I would say that = both options could be possible. I don't quite see how would this would=20 influence the use case with respect to ACE, could you elaborate? > When Jane grants Jeffrey > access I am wondering what identifiers have been used for this purpose.= I would see several options here, but I think they are all out of scope=20 for the use case document: a.) Some key-pair generated on the fly (SPKI-like) b.) Using the phone company as identity provider e.g. with GBA [1] c.) Some other identity provider such as OpenID > PS: Recently, I was sitting in a plane next to a person developing soft= ware for a big container management company. He explained me that they ar= e using OCR to scan the container numbers and efforts to deal with RFIDs or other radio=20 technologies have been tried but have not been very convincing (more=20 expensive and less robust). I was wondering who you have been talking to concerning the container=20 scenario in the document. > The input for that one came via Steffanie Gerdes from Markus Becker who=20 AFAIK is involved in a EU project on logistics. /Ludwig [1] http://www.3gpp.org/DynaReport/33220.htm --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms080200050600090107030400 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh 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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.177 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.177 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dCVrcrwuWCnT for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34801A07D7 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs32 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:42:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:42:48 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:O8Jqb2h10YTPifVHDlEK/u7xg3WJz31UHPW2akNmKL3 5ryCv6bu7znJYs72BT9hSyx0t8/w6ZsBsV5fVLTuGXgM0TCE8S MsUjkLtPoSPQY7cDCx/uGTHLqOr1Cr9PeDKZ9xMpAQU2w3EIb6 Mv0n5L46fbZI8J/TSPrPmhNHD+eRYG1NCz4zrQ45lZfUsWzHDG G+WEObs1CUC+TYIfatHu8SIc0op5l0+c0vKvK1pCLTof3PMcFK bcrhH4qwoRodLXjc5eInG2TcAGyWMkbTsY0gmlMAq3EUHcssm+ mor96Y= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/7j9f-E2CMrYM1VBlrS7gCxs9XLA Subject: [Ace] draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:42:52 -0000
Hi Judy, Hi Minpeng, 
 
thanks for your contribution. I read through the use case and the problem statement writeup. I believe I understand what you are trying to accomplish. 
 
A few remarks: 
 
 * It is rather unlikely that the server will periodically query all sensors (like in the smart meter scenario you describe in your document). Instead, it is more likely that the devices will periodically wake up and report their consumption to servers. Why? The server will have difficulties to reach all sensors since they are sleeping most of the time (for lower power consumption) and because of NATs and firewalls. There is also a problem with finding a suitable identifier to contact these devices. 
 
 * In your document you refer to the concept as 'group authentication' but I would call it proxy behavior. I thought that you use case is already covered by the CoAP specification based on the introduction of CoAP proxies. I might be wrong but that was my impression.  
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
From nobody Mon Feb 24 03:57:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9C21A0348 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:57:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YnvkhNW-Jrd1 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345981A0861 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 03:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs32 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:56:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Ludwig Seitz" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:56:59 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <530B3001.10404@sics.se> References: , <530B3001.10404@sics.se> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Eya25YJyfpVF5wiellmRLFk/QHoDq1wEY+dfmKagG0W D5w4RedWWa2mOl4se9Of2owJtcX6CHJthKfO9fZJKrGzAhEipL /JXt91aG6iF5YQOWdkY5YbTNL5rRCLp+ZaC13aS3sKeDpOLTMK /Fw7KCalBYtx3mEV9N+520hgP8U+86uP9MdfnLzID35xn32O5z yac5j1Xgb5Z9qRXZ1D5vHQVK6LzSPVD9tbhtsrm9eUOSEipOvB WZngyJy1j056zLSxampfOZQQjh6rBY3bTrgTAB54jBkuHJVPMW hCZHaE= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/FJOAszMe_D9XsgBxZwJnymwwCQI Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:57:03 -0000
Hi Ludwig, 
 
thanks for your quick response. Your response clarified your intentions and you indeed have somewhat high interoperability requirements.
In today's environment you cannot even get a lock and a digital key from different vendors to work together let alone. 
The app example was therefore not meant to be used in the way how they are used today. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
Gesendet: Montag, 24. Februar 2014 um 12:41 Uhr
Von: "Ludwig Seitz" <ludwig@sics.se>
An: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00
On 02/24/2014 12:13 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi
>
> I re-read the use case document and I noticed an aspect that I failed to recognize earlier and I was wondering what the expected interoperability requirements are.
>
> Here is the text from Section 2.2.1:
>
> Jane is the owner of an automated home, that allows her to remotely
> control all electrical devices through a web interface or mobile
> application. To allow for centralized management of all devices, new
> devices need to be able to communicate with both the web interface
> and the mobile application using a standardized, secure protocol.
>
> Jane has invited over her acquaintance Jeffrey for dinner, but is
> stuck in traffic and can not arrive in time, while Jeffrey who uses
> the subway arrives punctually. Jane calls Jeffrey and offers him to
> let him in remotely, so he can make himself comfortable and use
> Jane's home entertainment system.
>
> Jeffrey downloads an application that lets him communicate with
> Jane's home, and Jane set permissions for Jeffery that let's him open
> the door, and shut down the alarm using that application. She also
> gives Jeffrey access to lighting and HVAC and limited access to the
> home entertainment system, allowing Jeffrey to all services except
> those that are pay-per-use or those that Jane has marked as private.
>
> My question concerns the expected level of interoperability you are trying to accomplish?

In general I would expect that the authentication and authorization
mechanism should work across several manufacturers. For example if we
have an Authorization Server as in draft-gerdes or draft-selander, the
interoperability should:

a.) Allow devices from different manufacturers to enforce the access
control decisions of the same AS (without having to translate them into
various proprietary formats).
 
b.) Allow devices from different manufacturers to perform mutual
authentication.
 
[hannes] In your example, do you assume 

> Would Jeffrey have to download apps for all the different appliances?

I haven't specified the use cases in that level of detail, but I was
assuming one comprehensive application to manage all appliances.

> Where is this centralized management server located? Would it be a cloud
> service or something located in Jane's home?

Again the use case does not go to this level of detail. I would say that
both options could be possible. I don't quite see how would this would
influence the use case with respect to ACE, could you elaborate?

> When Jane grants Jeffrey
> access I am wondering what identifiers have been used for this purpose.

I would see several options here, but I think they are all out of scope
for the use case document:

a.) Some key-pair generated on the fly (SPKI-like)
b.) Using the phone company as identity provider e.g. with GBA [1]
c.) Some other identity provider such as OpenID

> PS: Recently, I was sitting in a plane next to a person developing software for a big container management company. He explained me that they are using OCR to scan
the container numbers and efforts to deal with RFIDs or other radio
technologies have been tried but have not been very convincing (more
expensive and less robust).
I was wondering who you have been talking to concerning the container
scenario in the document.
>

The input for that one came via Steffanie Gerdes from Markus Becker who
AFAIK is involved in a EU project on logistics.

/Ludwig

[1] http://www.3gpp.org/DynaReport/33220.htm

--
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelevägen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se

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From nobody Mon Feb 24 05:29:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8685B1A040C for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 05:29:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2QL9FfOBsLyP for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 05:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53901A00DE for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 05:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs13 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:29:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Olaf Bergmann" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:29:42 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87d2ic7ntr.fsf@tzi.org> References: , <87d2ic7ntr.fsf@tzi.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:gpfbsxhh5+m/yQngdgrtr3jTg7mEzxGBO1hCak7kZKC G7B0uITa8qGrfbptPWHSVSnC1lIApj/TP0jJlruACyU/zOsDky A1w15Sv8DR/T7ud0CGh9CIwsIsw18UxCC9SICTpRvSE00hliOq nq/lj+8fzOkBylnHOmH1xzkw72IAdUtE9rPZFqFYrxAqnh16K8 kelV0hyHBr6aTrtpWFZDCrsic02UOZzj7cnLnmPWQ3h6zytEOF +AsOxNMDqjb+FXTP8aV/t4PmEjZ2JWb2XNYVYWKIOAmdaf/c2b 8eiEmE= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/X_dFh4cOVnna99g3ILWtaBCSjrs Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 13:29:53 -0000
Thanks for the pointers, Olaf. 
 
I see that a huge number of papers have been published by the project members. Could you recommend some with relevance to the BOF?
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
 
Gesendet: Montag, 24. Februar 2014 um 12:27 Uhr
Von: "Olaf Bergmann" <bergmann@tzi.org>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
Cc: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00
Hi Hannes,

"Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net> writes:

> PS: Recently, I was sitting in a plane next to a person developing
> software for a big container management company. He explained me that
> they are using OCR to scan the container numbers and efforts to deal
> with RFIDs or other radio technologies have been tried but have not
> been very convincing (more expensive and less robust). I was wondering
> who you have been talking to concerning the container scenario in the
> document.
>

There is a large project on container logistics where Universität Bremen
is involved for several years, see e.g. <http://www.intelligentcontainer.com/>.
The container use-case has been derived from discussions with several
people from that project, including Markus Becker.

Gruesse
Olaf

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From nobody Mon Feb 24 06:30:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C611A063E for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:30:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.719 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_TVD_MIME_NO_HEADERS=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KUuNCCe1s_mw for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B149C1A00C5 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CC520044; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 57682647C9; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B7763B88; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:30:22 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Hannes Tschofenig" In-Reply-To: References: <1582748999.24919.1393238079793.JavaMail.nobody@jva2tc105.webex.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/uKzNW70iqFvixX4J79hsdMs0qTA Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Kerberos Tutorial - Tuesday - Feb. 25th, 1pm GMT X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:30:26 -0000 --=-=-= Thank you for organizing this. I will be on mobile, on transit to work... if there are any slides, I would love to review them beforehand. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUwtXfoqHRg3pndX9AQJZKQP+LVAyI/34i5auLUHMcbQ5sYWZ0gSUOUmJ eQwlP7CBAGCjLrc0XJpilSmr6MFANvmWBDjVdAQO+gDGIYX0nGYrkOhJai4XM0a1 ysvoGGAi7prJPdiC+6L0aV0lxDan1RSDGdO8QQNdJunQ4975OeEy5X2zzB1V+WHu 7onQdAzt39M= =iHN4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 06:33:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001641A087A for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:33:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dl9OObIFQifK for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AEAF1A0476 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs13 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:32:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Michael Richardson" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:32:53 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <10235.1393252222@sandelman.ca> References: <1582748999.24919.1393238079793.JavaMail.nobody@jva2tc105.webex.com> , <10235.1393252222@sandelman.ca> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:uwcRvkKAXQl3bvVFuOOCdZpFiv6Ch16/SsU1m9w/4J6 V3iiQYQukpM5dceR5bmtHyhXsNzzrrrOy2MZREH+xiZgTagKTC YKyEJHmBYQ5tm+BRsd6ZGQ80wXfrCGzImCMmB7diBUtx9N4cmH WV2Q5Y4r4rvo6UZGWJZmQgMsibvLSCNjgGMl5NuWdlJcRaSyTh Fxv/jB76A4odEzrxdSukjWVinLvRIdqdvR2hXXV1XWEtoExOG/ guK+qs/Vl2l/AK5qGCnMsQxr9fLdB5NsaGUyio3mltnhQg+BJr LXoBDg= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/i0MjsuZUE7mwpzAvbe_9SML8rgQ Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Kerberos Tutorial - Tuesday - Feb. 25th, 1pm GMT X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:33:09 -0000
Hi Michael, 
 
I will try to record the meeting if it works with the IETF Webex configuration.
I hope that some folks nevertheless have time to participate so that we also have a discussion. 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
Gesendet: Montag, 24. Februar 2014 um 15:30 Uhr
Von: "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
Cc: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: Re: [Ace] Kerberos Tutorial - Tuesday - Feb. 25th, 1pm GMT

Thank you for organizing this.
I will be on mobile, on transit to work... if there are any slides, I would
love to review them beforehand.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
-= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =-


 
From nobody Mon Feb 24 06:33:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8415A1A0476 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:33:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.719 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_TVD_MIME_NO_HEADERS=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dFOcu2BQcaiX for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D4F1A0891 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13AB20044; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 3357C647C9; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C9463B88; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:33:07 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Hannes Tschofenig" In-Reply-To: References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> , <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/P7zPSFVmu-rA1VMRvk5yIc7Tx2A Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:33:14 -0000 --=-=-= >Hi Michael, > >the IETF document submission deadline has passed and I noticed that there is no >new version of draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture available. Yes, I was down to the last minute, and child NMI was pushed, and I missed submission deadline. I'm more upset about that than you! >Hence, there is essentially no publically available content and I wonder how >well your views are aligned with the rest of the 6tisch group. > >Do you understand that I am a bit nervious? The 6tisch security design team has had multiple telecons since Xmas. I will shortly (today) send you some slides. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUwtYIoqHRg3pndX9AQKewwP/XEghHGGgh6YhybrDA5d+Fpgpne48KQc2 B4Ol4rbnj9grGiwXmYRwODfhQHYjGwe99HKnn25soZOvNwyoYr2quvea18pVjpxL GWtDmlTI02bDwV/6gkPX5UcCZjObFkDzkpv9wPM1PPsr+GiawZUqF354mKWo0hNA IoFDmAX/T9k= =pRTI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 06:37:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03091A0895 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:37:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cPrtVEYVP7Be for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962071A088E for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 06:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs13 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:37:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Michael Richardson" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:37:01 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> , <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> , <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:9ZABJXyh4FsHBhEZWdkzHIZry/BwRnFT6m7FfK/P2xK gHcGH7HT+sRZUGCLpQqXlE71oJzZy8e5K+p33Q//JRXQ3CCKZm 5lhOMg6eO/zWlP85ZoVcpgk/N/4SGhw8rjLg1n2C2RnJ8+nnq3 2jXnJsCFXJipXOxuUhSMYZlB68F9xqo6EA7eiApckrVE5++jGB uo4Xtsypr6l70eQEUc6usgjJ3Hnj4fUvklQZr7yXIKKigMz7jA 9eae0OQgp/O8gleTivbG/KztcaNYY4CbZjE3fFz8KHySx7esbs aowb2s= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/JO6eSqW9O9tTzqbvVNb9MWkVNOs Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:37:08 -0000
Thanks for providing some slides upfront. 
 
I am not upset but I can already hear the first person saying "why is he allowed to present and I am not." 
 
Ciao
Hannes
 
 
Gesendet: Montag, 24. Februar 2014 um 15:33 Uhr
Von: "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
An: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF

>Hi Michael,
>
>the IETF document submission deadline has passed and I noticed that there is no
>new version of draft-richardson-6tisch-security-architecture available.

Yes, I was down to the last minute, and child NMI was pushed, and I missed
submission deadline. I'm more upset about that than you!

>Hence, there is essentially no publically available content and I wonder how
>well your views are aligned with the rest of the 6tisch group.
>
>Do you understand that I am a bit nervious?

The 6tisch security design team has had multiple telecons since Xmas.

I will shortly (today) send you some slides.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
-= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =-


 
From nobody Mon Feb 24 07:26:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2B71A0083 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 07:19:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.709 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.709 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fA76Xa6Cdh26 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 07:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F6C1A0081 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 07:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8B320044; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 98DF6647C9; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C09863B88; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:19:38 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Hannes Tschofenig" In-Reply-To: References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> , <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> , <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/0VpQFi5zobvJ7UD2XyziLERSjso X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 07:26:50 -0800 Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:19:40 -0000 Weirdly, my MUA just won't quote your email. I have to copy and paste directly. Something about the header parsing in mh-e/supercite. > I am not upset but I can already hear the first person saying "why is he > allowed to present and I am not." I agree... it's unfair. put me at the end of the agenda... I might fall off! -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ From nobody Mon Feb 24 07:30:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981451A0083 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 07:30:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.177 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.177 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1HFkKuyBrAaW for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 07:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621C21A0075 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 07:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs13 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:30:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:30:09 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:bl+7vlEJyklqZjousWIi5UficX0b0VePEyKrrHjU8dY 6hpkxHAUCh/ScUcDFAh/5nA/5smZ57C6mFPwz1ne4Ke2rmGGc6 P2AFmCh18gjbXm0f356zAM+KkOriDXN1lu8GLieWnOhWmhLNMG 3cSCLB367TNp2hX7enw63yrion50+AKwylS1Hahmizpy/aCkqM +NutMn3T4rmDNmN4/26lqZIwxvE3XqETGc2AXNUq94Wo9GGMlY FMPg9votLcgZUrAENRF9T/kHO/uVniQQIHuddmGQ0WGBfoYGjB SJv3Ow= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/O_I0mP6RhVSuwhewzb2hsepqXgc Subject: [Ace] Tutorials: OAuth, Kerberos, and PKI X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 15:30:17 -0000
Hi all, 
 
for some reason two of the three tutorial announcements got marked as spam and might have therefore been lost somewhere in your junk folder. 
Here is the summary for all of them. 
 
** Kerberos Tutorial
Presenter: Thomas Hardjono
Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014
Time: 1:00 pm, GMT Time (London, GMT)
Meeting Number: 644 999 834
Meeting Password: kerberos
Online meeting:
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1ece1ae3939e5d85a28b2b235160458c
Audio conference information
 - Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-650-479-3208
 - Access code:644 999 834
To add this meeting to your calendar program: 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mbf017fcbf20fad698c6f2b5b704c3847

** PKI Tutorial
Presenter: Sean Turner
Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 
Time: 1:00 pm, GMT Time (London, GMT) 
Meeting Number: 647 365 244 
Meeting Password: sean 
 
Online meeting: 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mc596baf62b263e8a7ced4831061a994d 
Audio conference information 
 - Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-650-479-3208 
 - Access code:647 365 244 
To add this meeting to your calendar program: 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=ma0d75a19ae69ce587599dcb25dc48d04 

** OAuth Tutorial 
Presenter: Justin Richer
Date: Thursday, February 27, 2014 
Time: 1:00 pm, GMT Time (London, GMT) 
Meeting Number: 646 901 997 
Meeting Password: justin 
Online meeting:
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m51cdea08122259237c6193380a3ccdd4 
Audio conference information: 
- Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-650-479-3208 
- Access code:646 901 997 
To add this meeting to your calendar program
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m8bcee257eb3ab56e51c9b02c5b63b123 

Ciao
Hannes
 
PS: I searched for global dial-in numbers and found those http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html
No guarantee that they work. Will investigate the issue. 
 
From nobody Mon Feb 24 08:48:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5056D1A020C for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:48:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zdet5gmYNNYV for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF811A019E for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs13 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 17:48:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "Hannes Tschofenig" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 17:48:40 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:PDl/sVU2TO4ymysW8dt3LABh41yz+jY1TMk6gI8tov1 YlejTujeVhbZbG9F6gBIqh2o1I4XyVhfbaE/TX4HRbvBZssu+j GIF02XfhFrNBQfYVn8UxAoR+lt+X/jE3sVJdcIRfZGX8o4WyvN O7ubbHKORsLZ9bHfhmnK6WPbaC4b6WjPCgSzhPsc7H91keD2HR jvYn7GcYJkdIYo8URSPOvh7rtOoMuNo3m1nvJURdiYYeGShZaA 6lpJar2wk6xHqRGslLvXxCCX6THoDiPKVK5qfnCsuMOuLkZO2E pQ4Rjo= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/vr0Fr3R7TmEZpB1oqzGNnXgNCCs Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Tutorials: OAuth, Kerberos, and PKI X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:48:44 -0000
And, of course, I forgot to add that the tutorials are scheduled for 1 hour. 
 
Gesendet: Montag, 24. Februar 2014 um 16:30 Uhr
Von: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
An: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Betreff: [Ace] Tutorials: OAuth, Kerberos, and PKI
Hi all, 
 
for some reason two of the three tutorial announcements got marked as spam and might have therefore been lost somewhere in your junk folder. 
Here is the summary for all of them. 
 
** Kerberos Tutorial
Presenter: Thomas Hardjono
Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014
Time: 1:00 pm, GMT Time (London, GMT)
Meeting Number: 644 999 834
Meeting Password: kerberos
Audio conference information
 - Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-650-479-3208
 - Access code:644 999 834
To add this meeting to your calendar program: 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mbf017fcbf20fad698c6f2b5b704c3847

** PKI Tutorial
Presenter: Sean Turner
Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 
Time: 1:00 pm, GMT Time (London, GMT) 
Meeting Number: 647 365 244 
Meeting Password: sean 
Audio conference information 
 - Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-650-479-3208 
 - Access code:647 365 244 
To add this meeting to your calendar program: 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=ma0d75a19ae69ce587599dcb25dc48d04 

** OAuth Tutorial 
Presenter: Justin Richer
Date: Thursday, February 27, 2014 
Time: 1:00 pm, GMT Time (London, GMT) 
Meeting Number: 646 901 997 
Meeting Password: justin 
Audio conference information: 
- Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-650-479-3208 
- Access code:646 901 997 

Ciao
Hannes
 
PS: I searched for global dial-in numbers and found those http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html
No guarantee that they work. Will investigate the issue. 
 
_______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
From nobody Mon Feb 24 10:52:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C971A02C7 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:52:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2nc2A42V02Rm for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610631A02B4 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs13 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:51:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:51:54 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:F5DiDKsDMRbAY5qxgqafzlC7sM4eDIFEniPMd2S+19D cj+lsckMt03FUbM9QduMSflCJ+Oo/IO0OPyILyNrzHGMqIXhXJ sFUSeUqe5IUcx1CvBKgLEUrk/xemkhOBr7hvWJ2C43RXALzHgH KEiFaPVui1PqEcD65Vq8vzY43UxWTDD3kXCGC3LbrbhN7VZKm1 jdmBFnsXX1dcQB9NE1JqCztzhmLi2qV1adj0N/wSTyDzewlZCL 4zgBUjmrKQMMn41IiNVxn4DQcnNbucSpbV+mRA9XNcJSs9p/fK h1kN88= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/NuHQcuGwz_sYTqxPDksC5uz3CF4 Subject: [Ace] Draft Agenda Uploaded X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 18:52:01 -0000
Hi all,
 
we have put a draft agenda online at:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-ace
 
It is an updated version of the agenda distributed to the list earlier. 
 
Ciao
Hannes & Kepeng
 
From nobody Mon Feb 24 11:35:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDE71A028C for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:35:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.149 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lO9K9ek48JMi for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:35:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACADF1A028B for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:35:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1OJZdMp018574; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:35:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.12.206] (wlan.dagstuhl.de [192.76.146.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 91B0F303; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:35:38 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:35:36 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3BA5070F-6A12-46BF-AD73-41D173730BAD@tzi.org> References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> , <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> , <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/cebqUxAhX8Mv3Gd_jDpbJdShd2I Cc: Michael Richardson , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:35:48 -0000 On 24 Feb 2014, at 15:37, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: > I am not upset but I can already hear the first person saying "why is = he allowed to present and I am not.=94=20 There is also the concern that 6TiSCH may lead the audience a bit = astray, away from the core use cases of ACE. Not many people know about 6TiSCH, so focusing on this use case may = create more confusion than it adds elucidation. I wouldn=92t want the BOF being jeopardized by a scope debate we don=92t = need: ACE is about authenticated authorization of applications. (If ACE work turns out to be useful for adaptation layer security, too, = I=92m certainly fine with that.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Tue Feb 25 00:05:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94DA61A0400 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:05:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.76 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJBPdQjZgKLw for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (sessmg20.ericsson.net [193.180.251.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1591A0251 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:05:46 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb32-b7f4c8e0000012f5-e3-530c4ed8344a Received: from ESESSHC011.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg20.mgmt.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 19.25.04853.8DE4C035; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:05:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.152]) by ESESSHC011.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.51]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:05:44 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Michael Richardson , Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF Thread-Index: AQHPIQVJQ46p4PCU6kaJA6OW6o3r2JqmkLeAgABHOwCAHXP+gIAAO+yAgAABF4CAAAvoAIABKd+A Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:05:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> <21348.1393255178@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <21348.1393255178@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <9F9AA7E8C4186947B9807BC82B578872@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFuplkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3RvemH0+wwb5vzBbfv/UwWyzdeY/V Yl7DZSYHZo/Fm/azeSxZ8pPJo2XOHuYA5igum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujAMzywraOSqWv2xkbmCc xNbFyMkhIWAi8W31DBYIW0ziwr31QHEuDiGBE4wSF1bOgnKWMErcOzQNrIpNwFXiwIN3TCC2 iECURO/0B+wgNrOAosS6OX1gcWEBI4mujQsYIWqMJc5en8oGU7956wMwm0VAVWLd97NgM3kF zCW+rfvNDrHsN5PErCNnWUESnAI6El92bgcrYgQ67/upNUwQy8Qlbj2ZzwRxtoDEkj3nmSFs UYmXj/+B9YoK6EncezQX6jUliRXbLzFC9OpJ3Jg6hQ3CtpaY9fcxC4StLbFs4WtmiIMEJU7O fMIygVFiFpJ1s5C0z0LSPgtJ+ywk7QsYWVcxShanFhfnphsZ6OWm55bopRZlJhcX5+fpFadu YgRG6cEtv412MJ7cY3+IUZqDRUmc9zprTZCQQHpiSWp2ampBalF8UWlOavEhRiYOTqkGxsra 64ybt70WesLCNNX93RO1XRyBy75r71S6Li9u4VRUFtJ2pESrmCn5S4ipwbbWEydsazIu9s4R zBcKWn9q1V6266UnmPSd9my6Py0tMf/np6/cdWz7QnTqbZhrOftTLYWX+Fn1xL7ljJg0nZch TUGr9vWC3oaO4L7G9FUhj2T3iJqfXbFGiaU4I9FQi7moOBEAbZG7vqACAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/1sQ28NHfDKxb5hGbxCK5H_KWnZ0 Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:05:48 -0000 Hi Michael If you prepare a presentation: I sent you some questions in a previous mail of this thread which you may want to consider. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00204.htm G=F6ran On 24/02/14 16:19, "Michael Richardson" wrote: > >Weirdly, my MUA just won't quote your email. I have to copy and paste >directly. >Something about the header parsing in mh-e/supercite. > >> I am not upset but I can already hear the first person saying "why is he >> allowed to present and I am not." > >I agree... it's unfair. put me at the end of the agenda... I might fall >off! > >-- >] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh >networks [ >] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network >architect [ >] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails > [ > > >_______________________________________________ >Ace mailing list >Ace@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From nobody Tue Feb 25 00:10:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6F91A0368 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:10:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A8TQdz5i_1Zo for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD6A1A0363 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDY20983; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:10:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:10:32 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.38) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:10:38 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.158]) by SZXEMA406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 16:10:31 +0800 From: Likepeng To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "Michael Richardson" , Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF Thread-Index: AQHPIQVMSj33hXxwQUCLfZS41JM5a5qmG16AgABHOwCAHXP+gIAAO+yAgAABF4CAAAvoAIABGRmAgACHQiA= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:10:30 +0000 Message-ID: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AFC3E7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> <21348.1393255178@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.167.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/3NM0OaRPxp_3AYmNGDLlgwqwQn0 Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:10:45 -0000 Pmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbC1hcmNoaXZlL3dlYi9hY2UvY3VycmVudC9tc2cwMDIw NC5odG0NCg0KNDA0OiBQYWdlIE5vdCBGb3VuZC4NCg0KQ2FuIHlvdSBjaGVjayB0aGUgbGluaz8N Cg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KDQpLaW5kIFJlZ2FyZHMNCktlcGVuZw0KDQo+IC0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2 LS0tLS0NCj4g5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBBY2UgW21haWx0bzphY2UtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj 6KGoIEc/cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVyDQo+IOWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxNOW5tDLmnIgyNeaXpSAxNjow Ng0KPiDmlLbku7bkuro6IE1pY2hhZWwgUmljaGFyZHNvbjsgSGFubmVzIFRzY2hvZmVuaWcNCj4g 5oqE6YCBOiBhY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g5Li76aKYOiBSZTogW0FjZV0gNnRpc2NoIHJlcXVpcmVt ZW50cyBmb3IgQUNFIEJPRg0KPiANCj4gSGkgTWljaGFlbA0KPiANCj4gSWYgeW91IHByZXBhcmUg YSBwcmVzZW50YXRpb246IEkgc2VudCB5b3Ugc29tZSBxdWVzdGlvbnMgaW4gYSBwcmV2aW91cyBt YWlsIG9mDQo+IHRoaXMgdGhyZWFkIHdoaWNoIHlvdSBtYXkgd2FudCB0byBjb25zaWRlci4NCj4g DQo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbC1hcmNoaXZlL3dlYi9hY2UvY3VycmVudC9tc2cw MDIwNC5odG0NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBHw7ZyYW4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gT24gMjQvMDIvMTQgMTY6 MTksICJNaWNoYWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24iIDxtY3JAc2FuZGVsbWFuLmNhPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+ ID4NCj4gPldlaXJkbHksIG15IE1VQSBqdXN0IHdvbid0IHF1b3RlIHlvdXIgZW1haWwuICBJIGhh dmUgdG8gY29weSBhbmQgcGFzdGUNCj4gPmRpcmVjdGx5Lg0KPiA+U29tZXRoaW5nIGFib3V0IHRo ZSBoZWFkZXIgcGFyc2luZyBpbiBtaC1lL3N1cGVyY2l0ZS4NCj4gPg0KPiA+PiBJIGFtIG5vdCB1 cHNldCBidXQgSSBjYW4gYWxyZWFkeSBoZWFyIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBwZXJzb24gc2F5aW5nICJ3aHkg aXMNCj4gPj4gaGUgYWxsb3dlZCB0byBwcmVzZW50IGFuZCBJIGFtIG5vdC4iDQo+ID4NCj4gPkkg YWdyZWUuLi4gaXQncyB1bmZhaXIuIHB1dCBtZSBhdCB0aGUgZW5kIG9mIHRoZSBhZ2VuZGEuLi4g SSBtaWdodCBmYWxsDQo+ID5vZmYhDQo+ID4NCj4gPi0tDQo+ID5dICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgTmV2 ZXIgdGVsbCBtZSB0aGUgb2RkcyEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIHwgaXB2NiBtZXNoDQo+ID5uZXR3 b3JrcyBbDQo+ID5dICAgTWljaGFlbCBSaWNoYXJkc29uLCBTYW5kZWxtYW4gU29mdHdhcmUgV29y a3MgICAgICAgIHwgbmV0d29yaw0KPiA+YXJjaGl0ZWN0ICBbDQo+ID5dICAgICBtY3JAc2FuZGVs bWFuLmNhICBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYS8gICAgICAgIHwgICBydWJ5DQo+IG9uIHJh aWxzDQo+ID4gICBbDQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPkFjZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPkFjZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K PiA+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hY2UNCj4gDQo+IF9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEFjZSBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4gQWNlQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vYWNlDQo= From nobody Tue Feb 25 00:19:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754981A03C6 for ; 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Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:19:44 +0100 From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= To: Likepeng , Michael Richardson , Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF Thread-Index: AQHPIQVJQ46p4PCU6kaJA6OW6o3r2JqmkLeAgABHOwCAHXP+gIAAO+yAgAABF4CAAAvoAIABKd+A///wkACAABNYAA== Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:19:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> <21348.1393255178@sandelman.ca> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AFC3E7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AFC3E7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpikeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3RlcxiCfYYNEzEYvv33qYLZbuvMdq sedwE7PFvIbLTA4sHos37WfzaDnyltVjyZKfTB4tc/YwB7BEcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGUcfXKT qeCASEXLi6usDYx/hLsYOTgkBEwkZtxX7mLkBDLFJC7cW8/WxcjFISRwhFHidu89KGcJo8Sc 9xOZQKrYBFwkHjQ8ArNFBKok/m+4zAhiMwsoSqyb0wcWFxYwkujauIARosZY4uz1qWwQdpbE nGnz2EAWswioSvy5UQcS5hUwl7iy/gULxK7PzBKrnzxhBqnhFAiTeHzXCaSGEei476fWMEGs Epe49WQ+E8TRAhJL9pxnhrBFJV4+/scKYosK6EncezSXBSKuJNG45AkryEhmAU2J9bv0IcZY S0yf8YwN5vop3Q/ZIc4RlDg58wnLBEaJWUi2zULonoWkexaS7llIuhcwsq5i5ChOLU7KTTcy 2MQIjMeDW35b7GC8/NfmEKM0B4uSOO/Ht85BQgLpiSWp2ampBalF8UWlOanFhxiZODilGhhv M88RmRQiE7B86b3ZG+YX2uT83v0n2LbreuIBeba/cgpND7ZEbykWbEzn/bt1icatdQuy6/KV S7/tqhSPib7FrnrYadEcz8uqN6K3WriuMo94eOj2tzNqUyT7Ol7F7jk8+XuWtpDeZjk31X/h R7+uWrpX3/+MkAtH1kSZI30Pk615TZX9D9orsRRnJBpqMRcVJwIAXrVX1pUCAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/5CnQ9eElRLV6YcRShmVuXGIHzis Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:19:48 -0000 U29ycnksIGFuIOKAmGzigJkgbWlzc2luZywgaGVyZSBpcyB0aGUgbGluazoNCg0KaHR0cDovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL2FjZS9jdXJyZW50L21zZzAwMjA0Lmh0bWwNCg0K R8O2cmFuDQoNCk9uIDI1LzAyLzE0IDA5OjEwLCAiTGlrZXBlbmciIDxsaWtlcGVuZ0BodWF3ZWku Y29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPj5odHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWwtYXJjaGl2ZS93ZWIvYWNl L2N1cnJlbnQvbXNnMDAyMDQuaHRtDQo+DQo+NDA0OiBQYWdlIE5vdCBGb3VuZC4NCj4NCj5DYW4g eW91IGNoZWNrIHRoZSBsaW5rPw0KPg0KPlRoYW5rcywNCj4NCj5LaW5kIFJlZ2FyZHMNCj5LZXBl bmcNCj4NCj4+IC0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCj4+IOWPkeS7tuS6ujogQWNlIFttYWls dG86YWNlLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIOS7o+ihqCBHP3JhbiBTZWxhbmRlcg0KPj4g5Y+R6YCB 5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE05bm0MuaciDI15pelIDE2OjA2DQo+PiDmlLbku7bkuro6IE1pY2hhZWwgUmlj aGFyZHNvbjsgSGFubmVzIFRzY2hvZmVuaWcNCj4+IOaKhOmAgTogYWNlQGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiDk uLvpopg6IFJlOiBbQWNlXSA2dGlzY2ggcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGZvciBBQ0UgQk9GDQo+PiANCj4+ IEhpIE1pY2hhZWwNCj4+IA0KPj4gSWYgeW91IHByZXBhcmUgYSBwcmVzZW50YXRpb246IEkgc2Vu dCB5b3Ugc29tZSBxdWVzdGlvbnMgaW4gYSBwcmV2aW91cw0KPj5tYWlsIG9mDQo+PiB0aGlzIHRo cmVhZCB3aGljaCB5b3UgbWF5IHdhbnQgdG8gY29uc2lkZXIuDQo+PiANCj4+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbC1hcmNoaXZlL3dlYi9hY2UvY3VycmVudC9tc2cwMDIwNC5odG0NCj4+IA0K Pj4gDQo+PiBHw7ZyYW4NCj4+IA0KPj4gDQo+PiANCj4+IE9uIDI0LzAyLzE0IDE2OjE5LCAiTWlj aGFlbCBSaWNoYXJkc29uIiA8bWNyQHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+PiANCj4+ID4NCj4+ ID5XZWlyZGx5LCBteSBNVUEganVzdCB3b24ndCBxdW90ZSB5b3VyIGVtYWlsLiAgSSBoYXZlIHRv IGNvcHkgYW5kIHBhc3RlDQo+PiA+ZGlyZWN0bHkuDQo+PiA+U29tZXRoaW5nIGFib3V0IHRoZSBo ZWFkZXIgcGFyc2luZyBpbiBtaC1lL3N1cGVyY2l0ZS4NCj4+ID4NCj4+ID4+IEkgYW0gbm90IHVw c2V0IGJ1dCBJIGNhbiBhbHJlYWR5IGhlYXIgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHBlcnNvbiBzYXlpbmcgIndoeSBp cw0KPj4gPj4gaGUgYWxsb3dlZCB0byBwcmVzZW50IGFuZCBJIGFtIG5vdC4iDQo+PiA+DQo+PiA+ SSBhZ3JlZS4uLiBpdCdzIHVuZmFpci4gcHV0IG1lIGF0IHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgdGhlIGFnZW5kYS4u LiBJIG1pZ2h0IGZhbGwNCj4+ID5vZmYhDQo+PiA+DQo+PiA+LS0NCj4+ID5dICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgTmV2ZXIgdGVsbCBtZSB0aGUgb2RkcyEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIHwgaXB2NiBtZXNoDQo+ PiA+bmV0d29ya3MgWw0KPj4gPl0gICBNaWNoYWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24sIFNhbmRlbG1hbiBTb2Z0 d2FyZSBXb3JrcyAgICAgICAgfCBuZXR3b3JrDQo+PiA+YXJjaGl0ZWN0ICBbDQo+PiA+XSAgICAg bWNyQHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYSAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zYW5kZWxtYW4uY2EvICAgICAgICB8ICAgcnVi eQ0KPj4gb24gcmFpbHMNCj4+ID4gICBbDQo+PiA+DQo+PiA+DQo+PiA+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+ID5BY2UgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ PiA+QWNlQGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiA+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9hY2UNCj4+IA0KPj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18NCj4+IEFjZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IEFjZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hY2UNCg0K From nobody Tue Feb 25 00:35:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F74E1A042C for ; 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Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:34:42 +0100 (CET) From: Olaf Bergmann To: Likepeng References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> <21348.1393255178@sandelman.ca> <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AFC3E7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:34:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252AFC3E7@SZXEMA501-MBS.china.huawei.com> (likepeng@huawei.com's message of "Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:10:30 +0000") Message-ID: <8761o3pp3y.fsf@tzi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/brBCU3TZhE3ElwLDbbRCgKU7MiM Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Selander , Michael Richardson , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:35:00 -0000 Likepeng writes: >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00204.htm > > 404: Page Not Found. Just got truncated: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00204.html Gruesse Olaf From nobody Tue Feb 25 06:12:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7374E1A0720 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 06:12:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.918 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_TVD_MIME_NO_HEADERS=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8G0QKEYsh6ia for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 06:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A5B1A06DA for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 06:12:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD93120098; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 10:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 93E53647C9; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EDD63AB2; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:12:33 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3BA5070F-6A12-46BF-AD73-41D173730BAD@tzi.org> References: <12369.1391448469@sandelman.ca> , <32463.1391620318@sandelman.ca> , <10825.1393252387@sandelman.ca> <3BA5070F-6A12-46BF-AD73-41D173730BAD@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/AVXm6DSQ2fA8kTMaYTzM04nky_k Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] 6tisch requirements for ACE BOF X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 14:12:38 -0000 --=-=-= Carsten Bormann wrote: > There is also the concern that 6TiSCH may lead the audience a bit > astray, away from the core use cases of ACE. Perhaps this is why it is important to describe the use case, because it's not just about adaptation layer security. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUwykz4qHRg3pndX9AQLgqQQA0n1ACla7mXEILEFENBc3J/IDwsSzfex0 BpYbJl6ld93Z5bbdry1t03B+rhu4igmWBALLHKXG9kEHmlHRV1wzn6DQXzyTI0ny IaT1U7VWu9exTxTF/v94l463dl58Bk3hBxSYOA7gqV3W2ZtqbIEHXtyBOs9pA5Rv aRIHSvtMZHs= =YcqO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Feb 25 09:58:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B5F1A01A0 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:58:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.776 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.776 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbzsanBStyBv for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.176.64.232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 280E81A017A for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.20.21]) by rmmx-oa_allagent01-12001 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee1530cd9396e1-a26e1; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:56:09 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee1530cd9396e1-a26e1 Received: from RonpuzzlePC (unknown[221.217.115.73]) by rmsmtp-oa_rmapp03-12003 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee3530cd937e0a-983fc; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:56:09 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee3530cd937e0a-983fc From: =?utf-8?B?6b2Q5pe76bmP?= To: "'Hannes Tschofenig'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:58:16 +0800 Message-ID: <04cd01cf3253$296bf8d0$7c43ea70$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_04CE_01CF3296.378F38D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8xVUI4z2eqvZdSQh+p8Nu9peuapgA+akmw Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/ieAwRH2Xwm6VCqKeAtriv6gypdo Cc: 'Judy Zhu' Subject: [Ace] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgZHJhZnQtemh1LWFjZS1ncm91cGF1dGgtMDA=?= X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:58:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04CE_01CF3296.378F38D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hannes, =20 Sorry to reply late . Your comments are valuable to discuss. Pls see = response inline. =20 BRs, Minpeng =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] = =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Hannes Tschofenig =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2014=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 = 19:43 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ace@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Ace] draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00 =20 Hi Judy, Hi Minpeng,=20 =20 thanks for your contribution. I read through the use case and the = problem statement writeup. I believe I understand what you are trying to = accomplish.=20 =20 A few remarks:=20 =20 * It is rather unlikely that the server will periodically query all = sensors (like in the smart meter scenario you describe in your = document). Instead, it is more likely that the devices will periodically = wake up and report their consumption to servers. Why? The server will = have difficulties to reach all sensors since they are sleeping most of = the time (for lower power consumption) and because of NATs and = firewalls. There is also a problem with finding a suitable identifier to = contact these devices.=20 //Minpeng: In some scenario, it requests high stability service that the = server needs to confirm whether all sensors are good or not. If it found = some sensor couldn=E2=80=99t work properly, the server should take some = action fast, such as to warn people to change the bad sensor, or to get = rid of such sensor from the network. What is more, some trigger = solutions are needed when the server wants to connect to the sensors. = But I agree with you, the scenario the device report to server is more = likely=20 =20 * In your document you refer to the concept as 'group authentication' = but I would call it proxy behavior. I thought that you use case is = already covered by the CoAP specification based on the introduction of = CoAP proxies. I might be wrong but that was my impression. =20 //Minpeng: Good question. Your impression touches the key point which = triggers this draft. The fast reply is: introducing CoAP proxies can = solve part of the problem, but not all.=20 The reason is: in the normal case, proxy will works as following: proxy = authenticates all sensors, then proxy will authenticate with server ON = BEHALF OF all sensors. That is to say, the server must fully trust = proxy, no matter how it authenticates sensors, no matter what the = sensors are under proxy=E2=80=99s control. However, in some cases, the = server may want to know what exact sensors it could control under = proxy=E2=80=99s cover. Furthermore, considering some deployment, the = sensor and server could trust fully each other, but the proxy is = deployed by 3rd-party, so it couldn=E2=80=99t be fully trust. The server = should consider that proxy could report a fake sensor or hide some = existing sensors. So it needs to validate sensor=E2=80=99s identity = still. But with current solution, it can=E2=80=99t reach such purpose. = As a result, group authentication requirement is raised.=20 Hope this clarification make you more clear. =20 Ciao Hannes =20 ------=_NextPart_000_04CE_01CF3296.378F38D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Hannes,

 

Sorry to reply late . Your comments are valuable to discuss. Pls see = response inline.

 

BRs,

Minpeng

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] = =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 = Hannes = Tschofenig
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2014=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 19:43
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: = ace@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Ace] = draft-zhu-ace-groupauth-00

 

Hi Judy, Hi = Minpeng, 

 <= /o:p>

thanks for = your contribution. I read through the use case and the problem statement = writeup. I believe I understand what you are trying to = accomplish. 

 <= /o:p>

A few = remarks: 

 <= /o:p>

 * It = is rather unlikely that the server will periodically query all sensors = (like in the smart meter scenario you describe in your document). = Instead, it is more likely that the devices will periodically wake up = and report their consumption to servers. Why? The server will have = difficulties to reach all sensors since they are sleeping most of the = time (for lower power consumption) and because of NATs and firewalls. = There is also a problem with finding a suitable identifier to contact = these devices. 

//Minpeng: In some scenario, it requests high stability service that = the server needs to confirm whether all sensors are good or not. If it = found some sensor couldn=E2=80=99t work properly, the server should take = some action fast, such as to warn people to change the bad sensor, or to = get rid of such sensor from the network. What is more, some trigger = solutions are needed when the server wants to connect to the sensors. = But I agree with you, the scenario the device report to server is more = likely

 <= /o:p>

 * In = your document you refer to the concept as 'group authentication' but I = would call it proxy behavior. I thought that you use case is already = covered by the CoAP specification based on the introduction of CoAP = proxies. I might be wrong but that was my impression. =  

//Minpeng: Good question. Your impression touches the key point which = triggers this draft. The fast reply is: introducing CoAP proxies can = solve part of the problem, but not all.

The reason is: in the normal case, proxy will works as following: = proxy authenticates all sensors, then proxy will authenticate with = server ON BEHALF OF all sensors. That is to say, the server must fully = trust proxy, no matter how it authenticates sensors, no matter what the = sensors are under proxy=E2=80=99s control. However, in some cases, the = server may want to know what exact sensors it could control under = proxy=E2=80=99s cover. Furthermore, considering some deployment, the = sensor and server could trust fully each other, but the proxy is = deployed by 3rd-party, so it couldn=E2=80=99t be fully trust. = The server should consider that proxy could report a fake sensor or hide = some existing sensors. So it needs to validate sensor=E2=80=99s identity = still. But with current solution, it can=E2=80=99t reach such purpose. = As a result, group authentication requirement is raised. =

Hope this clarification make you more = clear.

 <= /o:p>

Ciao
Hann= es

 <= /o:p>

------=_NextPart_000_04CE_01CF3296.378F38D0-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 03:34:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F521A027E for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 03:34:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EZ-eY_o7XH6Y for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 03:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFD21A0285 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 03:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs13 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 12:33:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 12:33:41 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:F8UEbMml+qQcFocud/7zr1urOk9CUDhBLWpMsCttIC7 l4cNchuaDr/NbhIfgB58ZczXujXX5kvSgL1mkLoZuvP4mboc+5 aNiqZYgUEbSuhRxoPjiUBJbvEEg35++KZsLYFEDCp+03eKtQsI HlFSMaFPkNkbWq1UVhPVUTcqZ2mfLpYJ+ndB5CUwy1qeHRZdcg QdYKLePozXA/iKFMwMtA0PoIM2Dq/uZaBtwx4OmP4F9m8hX+OY kFBqE1TeCnynYnRYNa5Du762GsaIdlvY3C46qm0b8XWWzux7cH awcOAM= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/qJ_i5ng-4dj7f3lg8gKRwkFsH78 Subject: [Ace] Reminder: ACE Face-to-Face Socializing Event @ London IETF Meeting X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 11:34:01 -0000 Hi all,=20 I just wanted to send you a reminder about the informal meeting on Sunday,= March 2nd. We will meet at 7:30pm=C2=A0at the IETF registration desk.=20 So far, the following persons have expressed their interest:=20 =C2=A0- Ludwig Seitz =C2=A0- Corinna Schmitt =C2=A0- Olaf Bergmann =C2=A0- Steffi Gerdes =C2=A0- Carsten Bormann =C2=A0- Sandeep Kumar =C2=A0- Michael Richardson (maybe) =C2=A0- Goeran Seleander =C2=A0- Bert Greevenbosch =C2=A0- Hannes Tschofenig =C2=A0- Kepeng Li In case you are planning to join as well please let us know since we will = have to make a reservation at a nearby restaurant.=20 Ciao Hannes From nobody Wed Feb 26 05:05:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3E01A0319 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 05:04:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.176 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.176 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hfPpw8vU1T7n for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 05:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7AD1A00A2 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 05:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [217.140.96.21] by 3capp-gmx-bs18 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:04:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Hannes Tschofenig" To: "ace@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:04:49 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:hwHVzBOc4C0X1yVRlKyuVfIAfRhlVCtUrafklJyirJx ca3Ud/VujYPckyUazQNhLkN3QqAb4IsoSfpeqYL8oG4IFtVizM 3t4KYWS27Nm2JpWKmc4V8CAYJFrhyOnHl9QqVJZGgoklZ0lLDs anUGabmIp63uGtMkngKj6mE8LpoiNDWIJCYJSHtmWNk67EdIRx z/KJIy6ap0HBxN0uAUyA2kbmLUI02js9g2PFG0dOY+813wUi8M qcUSoNOhcl6ZLn4AxWYKqa7J9lRmtD4umtrcUMwuNxjmxFnMzV JTCRhc= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/tYcJ8R-dG-z_90aLVkzFKswKxlg Subject: [Ace] PKI tutorial X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 13:04:55 -0000
Some folks have difficulties joining Webex. let me send the link again: 
 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mc596baf62b263e8a7ced4831061a994d
 
 
Ciao
hannes
 
From nobody Wed Feb 26 08:03:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AAB1A06A8 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 08:03:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.909 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jPuTLwODTKRQ for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 08:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hauke-m.de (Hauke-2-pt.tunnel.tserv6.fra1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f0a:465::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B06F1A06A7 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 08:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hauke-m.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C207C7E23; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:03:17 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hauke-m.de Received: from hauke-m.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hauke-m.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yveatSOcmFBu; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:03:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [134.102.218.207] (dynamic-218-h.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.207]) by hauke-m.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E7CF7E24; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:03:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:02:59 +0100 From: Hauke Mehrtens User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Lambert References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/AFUDqIFyXPBmqI_kDRxKA9rlGhA Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version Notification for draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 16:03:23 -0000 Hi Paul, Thanks for your review. On 02/21/2014 05:06 AM, Paul Lambert wrote: > > On Feb 20, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Hauke Mehrtens wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> We submitted a proposal for a new kind of certificate suited for >> constrained environments. It should provide similar features as X.509 >> does, but only suited for TLS and DTLS usage. The draft is in an early >> state. >> >> We would like to get some comments on this idea. > "The serialNumber should be used by an issuer to store additional data > like a serial number to do certificate revocation or to add some > additional entropy to the certificate.” > > Not well specified. Extra entropy not necessary. > serialNumber in general not a well formed concept to use. This was intended to prevent some attacks, when the hash algorithm is broken, like it was done with MD5 in "MD5 Considered Harmful Today Creating a rogue CA certificate" [0]. Thinking further I would rather remove the attribute serialNumber completely and rely on using a strong hash algorithm when creating the signature. > "The issuer element must contain a named information defined in > [RFC6920], which is a SHA-256 hash over the issuer's public key or > part of it. It is used to identify the issuer certificate. The > element is tagged with the hash algorithm used to create the hash. > > Pick something specific (not “or part of it”) Thanks for spotting this. The hash should be made over the content of the subjectPublicKeyInfo element. > > "There are no secure hash algorithms needed, because a collision will > not weaken the security, it will just prevent the issuer from being > found." > > Delete - wrong. This hash is used to identify the issuer's certificate, it is something like the Issuer DN in a X.509 certificate. In the PKI world no one prevents me from generating a certificate, which has the same Subject DN as your certificate or a trusted CA, but I do not have any gain from it. The hash over the Public key has the same usage as the subject DN in a certificate. > SubjectName ::= CHOICE { > IPv4 byte string, > IPv6 byte string, > dns utf-8 string } > > What CAs have authority to issue which blocks of IPv4?? I haven't thought about a new CA model and would like to use the same or a similar model as used in the PKI world with X.509 certificates. So every trusted CA has the authority to issue a certificate for everything. It should be still possible to use this with DANE. > What of the issuer certs look like? Are there any constraints on level or dns range? There is still something like a key usage field missing in this draft. A good idea would be to make the CA cert smaller and do not do this self signed stuff used in X.509. The only elements needed in an root issuer certificate are the public key and the validity dates. Best regards, Hauke > Paul [0]: http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/Fahrplan/attachments/1251_md5-collisions-1.0.pdf From nobody Thu Feb 27 00:48:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186FA1A079D for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:48:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g7MZsm8HdDAV for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:48:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f52.google.com (mail-pb0-f52.google.com [209.85.160.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FB71A0075 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:48:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f52.google.com with SMTP id rr13so2242445pbb.11 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:48:21 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=pxeePMoKzBNgiUwm9BfhVjYyneDhNpdT43KW+YJLXjQ=; b=Qpzu7AN9qCfE78g0ITIC+3O5uTALxLio5QrZb+GB6kkISNe/Sa9vv3g/jr9c1an6rA lVOBPHhl5nAQ26gCQ7PTZ7HtlKZj9DamlrqymZvjkZoZQ7b3KBIr+5XSU1daBtUOdlxE S7Gnka4990bMoBvnBDAc7irA6oFPSxKnIFFujhGr8DbNrvj5xnY5yEMIVbsSbIvPzV6z N/uAUka6XK0yxQ8nDhOqwEBL5XiHqzDLUywRo2e0OuOaEJgNpv0LO8rkqys2qZMLGQJ6 yLK4YlS+6j+7Jr0e40tv/JFodTRs/stLXCQG5jbXwuUAgt8bqJ8RR4wxzIatO8UQykNY AKSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmhW9Eext9w4Dr1XQl1qsHl9b7rnM1mgeR9va2hfPuZX6A3p41gHi57XB+KR2/lPsy7Rndj X-Received: by 10.67.3.97 with SMTP id bv1mr14153899pad.54.1393490901641; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id lh13sm26208140pab.4.2014.02.27.00.48.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:48:20 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:48:09 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> To: Hauke Mehrtens X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/zAzhZ5l-ETSK3DsZEQ13jG57B60 Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version Notification for draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:48:25 -0000 On Feb 26, 2014, at 8:02 AM, Hauke Mehrtens wrote: > Hi Paul, >=20 > Thanks for your review. >=20 > On 02/21/2014 05:06 AM, Paul Lambert wrote: >>=20 >> On Feb 20, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Hauke Mehrtens wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> We submitted a proposal for a new kind of certificate suited for >>> constrained environments. It should provide similar features as = X.509 >>> does, but only suited for TLS and DTLS usage. The draft is in an = early >>> state. >>>=20 >>> We would like to get some comments on this idea. >> "The serialNumber should be used by an issuer to store additional = data >> like a serial number to do certificate revocation or to add some >> additional entropy to the certificate.=94 >>=20 >> Not well specified. Extra entropy not necessary. >> serialNumber in general not a well formed concept to use. >=20 > This was intended to prevent some attacks, when the hash algorithm is > broken, like it was done with MD5 in "MD5 Considered Harmful Today > Creating a rogue CA certificate" [0]. > Thinking further I would rather remove the attribute serialNumber > completely and rely on using a strong hash algorithm when creating the > signature. >=20 >> "The issuer element must contain a named information defined in >> [RFC6920], which is a SHA-256 hash over the issuer's public key or >> part of it. It is used to identify the issuer certificate. The >> element is tagged with the hash algorithm used to create the hash. >>=20 >> Pick something specific (not =93or part of it=94) >=20 > Thanks for spotting this. > The hash should be made over the content of the subjectPublicKeyInfo > element. >=20 >>=20 >> "There are no secure hash algorithms needed, because a collision = will >> not weaken the security, it will just prevent the issuer from being >> found." >>=20 >> Delete - wrong. >=20 > This hash is used to identify the issuer's certificate, it is = something > like the Issuer DN in a X.509 certificate. In the PKI world no one > prevents me from generating a certificate, which has the same Subject = DN > as your certificate or a trusted CA, but I do not have any gain from = it. > The hash over the Public key has the same usage as the subject DN in a > certificate. >=20 >> SubjectName ::=3D CHOICE { >> IPv4 byte string, >> IPv6 byte string, >> dns utf-8 string } >>=20 >> What CAs have authority to issue which blocks of IPv4?? >=20 > I haven't thought about a new CA model and would like to use the same = or > a similar model as used in the PKI world with X.509 certificates. A certificate without a well architected and documented trust framework = will be problematic. Your choice of following X>509 is a mistake (IMHO). Many problems are documented: - lack of useable delegation - insufficient semantics especially for constraints on attribute = delegation > So every trusted CA has the authority to issue a certificate for > everything. It should be still possible to use this with DANE. This is an overly promiscuous design foundation. >=20 >> What of the issuer certs look like? Are there any constraints on = level or dns range? >=20 > There is still something like a key usage field missing in this draft. Not clear at all this makes sense. Paul > A good idea would be to make the CA cert smaller and do not do this = self > signed stuff used in X.509. The only elements needed in an root issuer > certificate are the public key and the validity dates. >=20 > Best regards, > Hauke >=20 >> Paul >=20 > [0]: > = http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/Fahrplan/attachments/1251_md5-collision= s-1.0.pdf From nobody Thu Feb 27 12:25:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309DD1A0665 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 12:25:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWsaoQgPII56 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 12:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hauke-m.de (Hauke-2-pt.tunnel.tserv6.fra1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f0a:465::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D921A0679 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 12:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hauke-m.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC567E26; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:24:58 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hauke-m.de Received: from hauke-m.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hauke-m.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7I-lNZuuCJV; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:24:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.178] (spit-414.wohnheim.uni-bremen.de [134.102.133.158]) by hauke-m.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3E8F7E25; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:24:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <530F9F11.4070005@hauke-m.de> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:24:49 +0100 From: Hauke Mehrtens User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Lambert References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> In-Reply-To: <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/z8yJi0i_embZE3J-EH7THw9-5PM Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version Notification for draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 20:25:04 -0000 On 02/27/2014 09:48 AM, Paul Lambert wrote: > > On Feb 26, 2014, at 8:02 AM, Hauke Mehrtens wrote: > >> Hi Paul, >> >> Thanks for your review. >> >> On 02/21/2014 05:06 AM, Paul Lambert wrote: >>> >>> On Feb 20, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Hauke Mehrtens wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> We submitted a proposal for a new kind of certificate suited for >>>> constrained environments. It should provide similar features as X.509 >>>> does, but only suited for TLS and DTLS usage. The draft is in an early >>>> state. >>>> >>>> We would like to get some comments on this idea. >>> "The serialNumber should be used by an issuer to store additional data >>> like a serial number to do certificate revocation or to add some >>> additional entropy to the certificate.” >>> >>> Not well specified. Extra entropy not necessary. >>> serialNumber in general not a well formed concept to use. >> >> This was intended to prevent some attacks, when the hash algorithm is >> broken, like it was done with MD5 in "MD5 Considered Harmful Today >> Creating a rogue CA certificate" [0]. >> Thinking further I would rather remove the attribute serialNumber >> completely and rely on using a strong hash algorithm when creating the >> signature. >> >>> "The issuer element must contain a named information defined in >>> [RFC6920], which is a SHA-256 hash over the issuer's public key or >>> part of it. It is used to identify the issuer certificate. The >>> element is tagged with the hash algorithm used to create the hash. >>> >>> Pick something specific (not “or part of it”) >> >> Thanks for spotting this. >> The hash should be made over the content of the subjectPublicKeyInfo >> element. >> >>> >>> "There are no secure hash algorithms needed, because a collision will >>> not weaken the security, it will just prevent the issuer from being >>> found." >>> >>> Delete - wrong. >> >> This hash is used to identify the issuer's certificate, it is something >> like the Issuer DN in a X.509 certificate. In the PKI world no one >> prevents me from generating a certificate, which has the same Subject DN >> as your certificate or a trusted CA, but I do not have any gain from it. >> The hash over the Public key has the same usage as the subject DN in a >> certificate. >> >>> SubjectName ::= CHOICE { >>> IPv4 byte string, >>> IPv6 byte string, >>> dns utf-8 string } >>> >>> What CAs have authority to issue which blocks of IPv4?? >> >> I haven't thought about a new CA model and would like to use the same or >> a similar model as used in the PKI world with X.509 certificates. > > A certificate without a well architected and documented trust framework will be problematic. > > Your choice of following X>509 is a mistake (IMHO). > Many problems are documented: > - lack of useable delegation > - insufficient semantics especially for constraints on attribute delegation This certificate is targeted at constrained devices. I want to make it possible to use this on a Class 1 node with ~10 KB RAM and ~100 KB ROM, so one goal is to keep this small. The implementation handling these certificates should not consume lots of memory and also the data needed to be transfered should be small. The use case I thought about is an organization installing devices for building automation in their own buildings. The organization creates a own CA certificate and signs all the certificates of the devices installed in their buildings with this certificate and installs it as the only trusted entity in all the devices. I haven't thought about certificate revocation that is still an open issue. Hauke > > >> So every trusted CA has the authority to issue a certificate for >> everything. It should be still possible to use this with DANE. > > This is an overly promiscuous design foundation. > > >> >>> What of the issuer certs look like? Are there any constraints on level or dns range? >> >> There is still something like a key usage field missing in this draft. > > Not clear at all this makes sense. > > Paul > >> A good idea would be to make the CA cert smaller and do not do this self >> signed stuff used in X.509. The only elements needed in an root issuer >> certificate are the public key and the validity dates. >> >> Best regards, >> Hauke >> >>> Paul >> >> [0]: >> http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/Fahrplan/attachments/1251_md5-collisions-1.0.pdf > From nobody Thu Feb 27 13:01:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B201A03BB for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:01:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDyTYx0ij7Xk for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C337F1A0323 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:01:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1RL1BcE019540; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:01:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.12.206] (wlan.dagstuhl.de [192.76.146.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9F81F98F; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:01:10 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:01:07 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6A6595C6-3D2E-4EEB-8F7C-D3B62D531A88@tzi.org> References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> To: Paul Lambert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/dcN9jWsTxWWEvnOrqRPuB89mejw Cc: Hauke Mehrtens , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version Notification for draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:01:17 -0000 On 27 Feb 2014, at 09:48, Paul Lambert wrote: > A certificate without a well architected and documented trust = framework will be problematic. Indeed, certificates are most useful if the interpreter of the = certificate can find out what they certify, and what is the = authorization underlying that certification. My assumption would be that we want to have a richer, more directly = applicable language in constrained systems than what we are used to in = PKI. One thing that ACE could do is to define a small(!) set of useful = elements of that vocabulary. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:13:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DCE31A043C for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:13:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dqb9uOTowMy6 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:13:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x22e.google.com (mail-ie0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227621A015E for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:13:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f174.google.com with SMTP id rp18so2687713iec.33 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:12:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YhxBPTfuE5uOCBrHYgDDWlJJspwAXZ2q/vqJrfXQiB8=; b=t2ZC8eozLW/su3BsFGB7kRko3Te2Hhush7HPII1V78ai19TqYfIPQv3e9sva92C/p7 NAYvHyLSsG1TBMgTC1BcgYZgJxZrJFY98uRZ/+53y8lyG7lXlHNuyaaqnL/wsk6+UbEN BluT1qizWxeDufA50jQ9kYfAYBORHvBhkdJw0TOcQwfjs6jHLaKzzyboLY8oYx5swoV9 /DKhSnYH381XsgYOnx7ClAPvUtFS/FQ06E8sK73v5/v7yFFXbOw5vIZC3PG0vnLh/oPG TTIBWQIHG3RhJnGYFrtUrCnNqDHy/IQD1Le4FJ2NT22RMw0J9PwEOmN3BQVodiBH89kS zXSg== X-Received: by 10.43.146.69 with SMTP id jx5mr7742181icc.42.1393539178442; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (CPE0013100e2c51-CM001cea35caa6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [99.231.3.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c17sm283774igo.4.2014.02.27.14.12.56 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:12:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <530FB866.1090300@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:12:54 -0500 From: Rene Struik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Bormann References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> <6A6595C6-3D2E-4EEB-8F7C-D3B62D531A88@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <6A6595C6-3D2E-4EEB-8F7C-D3B62D531A88@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/i4lgpWgshymN_pfWVLtBdBRtN_0 Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: [Ace] your position paper for tomorrow's STRINT workshop X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:13:02 -0000 Hi Carsten: I enjoyed reading your position paper for tomorrow's STRINT workshop. One thing that is worth articulating is that ownership of data issues should be sorted out, where explicit consent is not the same as pressing a button because service providers only have a black-and-white all-or-nothing policy (your toothbrush example comes to mind, where insurance company does not pay for dental work if there is no evidence that customer flossed and brushed their teeths at least twice for at least 99% of the time). Considering blanket access Apps do wish to claim to smart phone storage, perhaps the only mechanism that works here is strict legislation (on top of security mechanisms), where ownership cannot be circumvented or transferred on a whim. The same issue plays with vehicular to vehicular (V2V) safety technology, where car manufacturers may claim they own the data, even though the customer bought the car. (It is estimated that in 2025, half of the value of a car is in data/networking services, so there is an incentive to arm-wrestle consumers here.) Unfortunately, I will not be at IETF-89 in London; I will be at the next meeting, in Toronto. I may have more specific details on the crypto-related discussion we had in Vancouver in November by then (perhaps, a light-weight hardware-assisted implementation of all crypto one needs for sensor applications from cradle to grave). Best regards, Rene PS: not sure whether the traditional approach of stuffing certs with authorization info is best (i.e., combining authentication and authorization credential) is best. We can discuss later. On 2/27/2014 4:01 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 27 Feb 2014, at 09:48, Paul Lambert wrote: > >> A certificate without a well architected and documented trust framework will be problematic. > Indeed, certificates are most useful if the interpreter of the certificate can find out what they certify, and what is the authorization underlying that certification. > My assumption would be that we want to have a richer, more directly applicable language in constrained systems than what we are used to in PKI. > One thing that ACE could do is to define a small(!) set of useful elements of that vocabulary. > > Grüße, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 From nobody Thu Feb 27 23:56:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 499EB1A075A for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 23:56:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDtV_ydO79BQ for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 23:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsmsg2.sics.se (fsmsg2.sics.se [IPv6:2001:6b0:3a:1:250:56ff:fea9:52ad]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E301A0759 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 23:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (fsmsg2 [127.0.0.1]) by fsmsg2.sics.se (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id s1S7t9JP011774 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 08:56:48 +0100 Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by fsmsg2.sics.se with ESMTP id 1j5cpp93j7-1 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 08:56:48 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [85.235.11.178]) (Authenticated sender: ludwig@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC3EA40116 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 08:56:48 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5310413C.7040303@sics.se> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 08:56:44 +0100 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ace@ietf.org References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> <6A6595C6-3D2E-4EEB-8F7C-D3B62D531A88@tzi.org> <530FB866.1090300@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <530FB866.1090300@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070206060205040602080803" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-02-28_01:2014-02-27,2014-02-28,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1305240000 definitions=main-1402270218 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/BtJHEjWlBeUUjXwkGiKqYH_n4xY Subject: Re: [Ace] your position paper for tomorrow's STRINT workshop X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 07:56:55 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070206060205040602080803 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/27/2014 11:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote: > PS: not sure whether the traditional approach of stuffing certs with > authorization info is best (i.e., combining authentication and > authorization credential) is best. We can discuss later. I'm pretty sure combining authN and authZ in one credential is _not_ a=20 good idea. It might work in certain cases (i.e. when successful=20 authentication implies full access without restrictions) but in most=20 other cases it fails miserably (think revocation, changing access=20 rights, anonymous access and so on). /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms070206060205040602080803 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwiRTjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh 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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihU_-NyWia7h for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 00:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f43.google.com (mail-pa0-f43.google.com [209.85.220.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345C01A005E for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 00:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id bj1so377480pad.2 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 00:30:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=u75LfWU9eo9JIW8KDqZFelvPRIIF+3/nhnaZz8NlgHU=; b=OgfI45C+OemtGSX8T7A6pBcNSCietoETVEWbJipYXSU45ppdB1bVErfwlzvnO0saFi iB0dFmEENED3JD7goiGLW6ZBqivENtVqvN+pM023fbN4tIz3pnSZxKv5KRJZ2Qt+1p0z brBB1S9mYrsjKwo8rnoWjxZO79Y1KPecqu8xjAtxv+r6mWjuQFjUFWe5asZITmeS3zda poRDR2jk2ka9VTqJpiXHcz3p35+s2TykcD3gqncmwDZQqwGzsN8yCEvozqUZ/SqfIHBg au97Paf7IGNVQo6Ymqy9HCFTkvsUN1wr/01OTNTR6cbOgpXCE60mUXycg6JWQC2+3fc3 K+kQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkZ5qMQUUmR9ocb/ifzEle0qljatPij7V1JscaKcuDl6rZ8VxCZievpqmyO5l9yBEel8aAD X-Received: by 10.66.249.233 with SMTP id yx9mr2029387pac.3.1393576253418; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 00:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bz4sm3572783pbb.12.2014.02.28.00.30.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Feb 2014 00:30:52 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <6A6595C6-3D2E-4EEB-8F7C-D3B62D531A88@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 00:30:51 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9340A25B-525B-4284-BA6E-0FD82068899E@nymbus.net> References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> <6A6595C6-3D2E-4EEB-8F7C-D3B62D531A88@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/oYCpD7NdOEKLNfBxFPSJckK1GMg Cc: Hauke Mehrtens , ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] New Version Notification for draft-mehrtens-core-ace-concert-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 08:30:57 -0000 On Feb 27, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 27 Feb 2014, at 09:48, Paul Lambert wrote: >=20 >> A certificate without a well architected and documented trust = framework will be problematic. >=20 > Indeed, certificates are most useful if the interpreter of the = certificate can find out what they certify, and what is the = authorization underlying that certification. > My assumption would be that we want to have a richer, more directly = applicable language in constrained systems than what we are used to in = PKI. > One thing that ACE could do is to define a small(!) set of useful = elements of that vocabulary. Yes! I suggest a semantic framework of keys as =91speakers=92 (somewhat like = SDSI/SPKI). =20 Templates of speaker and associated statement format would be developed. Basic statements to include assignment of attributes and the delegation = of attribute assignment to a constrained range. Paul >=20 > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 28 05:59:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828FF1A0237 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 05:59:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NPCfAMxW9asF for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 05:59:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B561A0763 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 05:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f5d8e000002a7b-b4-53109622c029 Received: from ESESSHC013.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AA.02.10875.22690135; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 14:58:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.152]) by ESESSHC013.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.57]) with mapi id 14.02.0387.000; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 14:58:58 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= To: Hannes Tschofenig , "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPKxkq7wEgo1C8yU2rhfSc25Kj4ZrKxEeA Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:58:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5300B9E8.9050804@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <5300B9E8.9050804@gmx.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.17] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja7yNIFggxWTeCy+f+thtli68x6r A5PH4k372TyWLPnJFMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXx99Nl5oLNAhW3Li5jbmDcz9vFyMEhIWAi cfKtSBcjJ5ApJnHh3nq2LkYuDiGBQ4wSC16ehXKWMEqs3fyHHaSKTcBV4sCDd0wgtohAkMTh xtdsIIOEBcwl5nbHgJgiAhYSl1/lQVQYSSxsbWADsVkEVCWefL0C1skLVL3z01xmEFtIQE1i +Z01YHFOAXWJf+cbGEFsRqB7vp+CiDMLiEvcejKfCeJOAYkle84zQ9iiEi8f/2MFsUUF9CTu PZrLAvGWosTyfjmIVj2JG1OnsEHY1hI7H/2GsrUlli18zQxxjqDEyZlPWCYwis9Csm0WkvZZ SNpnIWmfhaR9ASPrKkb23MTMnPRyw02MwGg6uOW37g7GU+dEDjFKc7AoifN+eOscJCSQnliS mp2aWpBaFF9UmpNafIiRiYNTqoFRaVZbyLRpgZPDGl9KbBL/+e1Q0gljwTMhqaXNBvWVfnZn RBTkegPndbdZHP62pSp2++IlG1+dZWaMXKTgLrFz4hfhCRfOrBZoOMqvEqpxsH7Hr0vf2oKV ecuZOGT7dk9b8LqaQ7DqcJX3/BwN94vHJ80r1z+rbb6Mk7/qv+clvYdnSuPuGvUosRRnJBpq MRcVJwIAzflpGnQCAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/Ed1vDtD6OeXjiDC2Anbm-I8lNBs Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00.txt X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 13:59:04 -0000 Hi Hannes, I have read your draft and I think it is motivating well the usefulness of a three party protocol and the candidate protocols in this context. I would like to add to the list of candidate protocols the Multimedia Internet KEYing protocol (MIKEY, RFC 3830), or more specifically MIKEY-TICKET (RFC 6043). MIKEY is a lightweight key management protocol designed for peer-to-peer, one-to-many and small sized groups. MICKEY-TICKET is specifically addressing the case of a trusted key management service (=B3Authorization Server=B2) like other three party authentication protocols considered and reuses the ticket concept from Kerberos, but also adds e.g. public-key encryption-based key distribution and, as mentioned, group key management. It also has the concept of =B3Ticket Policy=B2 containing certain authorization information. Clearly, Kerberos is more widely deployed, but I think this protocol merits to be considered in the evaluation. G=F6ran On 16/02/14 14:15, "Hannes Tschofenig" wrote: >Hi all, > >last Friday I have submitted a document that informs about available >three party authentication and authorization protocols developed in the >IETF. > >The described security protocols are Kerberos, OAuth, ABFAB (which >builds on the AAA/EAP architecture), and the certificate/PKI model. >With each protocol I provide references to the relevant specifications >and a discussion about the pros & cons. As you can imagine, there was a >lot of standardization work on each of these protocols and quite >naturally there are many extensions available. Not all of them are >relevant for the IoT context. > >I have not yet tried to map the features of the protocols against the >use cases and requirements since those are obviously still in flux. For >a future version of the document this is, however, the goal. > >In any case, here is the document: >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00 > >I am looking forward to see your reaction to the document. > >Ciao >Hannes > > From nobody Fri Feb 28 09:38:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D379A1A0300 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 09:38:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RKGmkClT3b9X for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 09:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f51.google.com (mail-pb0-f51.google.com [209.85.160.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8351A02D1 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 09:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id uo5so335153pbc.10 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 09:38:06 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=W7aFeniRuvv3TAiK+k9eaQuPxG4fTkVE7/SGC1+v3yg=; b=TAI244fPOqbRpsHHDsswiknIAiVR/wh3GMvezJFfGvpQK23bcORPMwW0eJio7XBThn MBZaNle8BU7oC39YNO3dnI+PBzejQ9y6YUrambZRnyS8nybDBhN/dhahQvuEKbJj0vXn tCw5CHysnW5cNp/lvbL9TbS6nwo2NJKYercK9grkboWV5bkhUWuDTpsavbdoLCzcb8fg 6BJ6+7NKwS3OZF8gcKgKLg97l+B7b45Q2nXPS/oT/dsYG31kJu3dcBnpiDsEo+H1jyYL IiL2r1eCHQmbvLfF0C4UCfCkoLN8464L0tN0ELN5pnxL9yDnXXulMMB4e/w0kNbYFcOj dHbA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlKNf3Z8qcjDw4Twq3Ha0jyCyAFST6omoKlGDjW1hSYeum4NWz+4L5OSWrl4t2bLBSu8Pzk X-Received: by 10.67.1.202 with SMTP id bi10mr4977080pad.68.1393609086858; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 09:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([12.131.214.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id j3sm8144894pbh.38.2014.02.28.09.38.05 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Feb 2014 09:38:05 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Paul Lambert In-Reply-To: <5310413C.7040303@sics.se> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 09:38:04 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <405576EE-2BCF-4FBC-9AA3-5FD824E4F8A2@nymbus.net> References: <20140214235446.28205.33936.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5305F3CD.30903@hauke-m.de> <530E1033.6010407@hauke-m.de> <1E01282D-9186-4A3D-A9A7-FB3CAD53DD57@nymbus.net> <6A6595C6-3D2E-4EEB-8F7C-D3B62D531A88@tzi.org> <530FB866.1090300@gmail.com> <5310413C.7040303@sics.se> To: Ludwig Seitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/xk0RkNMlcJF4qegKGlEuCkGc7Ks Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] your position paper for tomorrow's STRINT workshop X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 17:38:10 -0000 On Feb 27, 2014, at 11:56 PM, Ludwig Seitz wrote: > On 02/27/2014 11:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote: >=20 >> PS: not sure whether the traditional approach of stuffing certs with >> authorization info is best (i.e., combining authentication and >> authorization credential) is best. We can discuss later. >=20 >=20 > I'm pretty sure combining authN and authZ in one credential is _not_ a = good idea. I sort-of agree =85 the semantics of the signature are typically be = different for the two usages. > It might work in certain cases (i.e. when successful authentication = implies full access without restrictions) I disagree at this point. This depends on the assumed authorization = framework. Authentication should never imply access or any specific = capabiities. Public keys are always the primary authentication reference and access = control models are built on the attributes assigned to the key. > but in most other cases it fails miserably (think revocation, changing = access rights, anonymous access and so on). In X.509 - yes. =20 I=92m not sure why we even have a notion of authN versus authZ = certificates. A signed statement by one key is basically assigning = attributes to another key. The attributes are used for access control = decisions. A more consistent model would just have arbitrary attributes = bound to a key, Paul >=20 > /Ludwig >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Ludwig Seitz, PhD > SICS Swedish ICT AB > Ideon Science Park > Building Beta 2 > Scheelev=E4gen 17 > SE-223 70 Lund >=20 > Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 > http://www.sics.se >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace