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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 09:09:12 +0100
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From: Sandeep Kumar <ietf@sandeep.de>
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
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Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00.txt
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Agree with G=F6ran that MIKEY is a very promising algorithm for the IoT
domain.
There has been some work to adapt it to the context of LLN,  AMIKEY
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-alexander-roll-mikey-lln-key-mgmt-04
That work seems to have stopped progressing. Good to check how (A)MIKEY can
be used in the ACE context.

regards
Sandeep


On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 2:58 PM, G=F6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.=
com
> wrote:

> Hi Hannes,
>
> I have read your draft and I think it is motivating well the usefulness o=
f
> a three party protocol and the candidate protocols in this context. I
> would like to add to the list of candidate protocols the Multimedia
> Internet KEYing protocol (MIKEY, RFC 3830), or more specifically
> MIKEY-TICKET (RFC 6043).
>
> MIKEY is a lightweight key management protocol designed for peer-to-peer,
> one-to-many and small sized groups. MICKEY-TICKET is specifically
> addressing the case of a trusted key management service (=B3Authorization
> Server=B2) like other three party authentication protocols considered and
> reuses the ticket concept from Kerberos, but also adds e.g. public-key
> encryption-based key distribution and, as mentioned, group key management=
.
> It also has the concept of =B3Ticket Policy=B2 containing certain
> authorization information.
>
> Clearly, Kerberos is more widely deployed, but I think this protocol
> merits to be considered in the evaluation.
>
>
> G=F6ran
>
>
>
> On 16/02/14 14:15, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >last Friday I have submitted a document that informs about available
> >three party authentication and authorization protocols developed in the
> >IETF.
> >
> >The described security protocols are Kerberos, OAuth, ABFAB (which
> >builds on the AAA/EAP architecture), and the certificate/PKI model.
> >With each protocol I provide references to the relevant specifications
> >and a discussion about the pros & cons. As you can imagine, there was a
> >lot of standardization work on each of these protocols and quite
> >naturally there are many extensions available. Not all of them are
> >relevant for the IoT context.
> >
> >I have not yet tried to map the features of the protocols against the
> >use cases and requirements since those are obviously still in flux. For
> >a future version of the document this is, however, the goal.
> >
> >In any case, here is the document:
> >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00
> >
> >I am looking forward to see your reaction to the document.
> >
> >Ciao
> >Hannes
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Agree with G=F6ran that MIKEY is a very pro=
mising algorithm for the IoT domain. <br>There has been some work to adapt =
it to the context of LLN,=A0 AMIKEY <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-alexander-roll-mikey-lln-key-mgmt-04">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-alexander-roll-mikey-lln-key-mgmt-04</a><br>
</div>That work seems to have stopped progressing. Good to check how (A)MIK=
EY can be used in the ACE context.<br><br></div>regards<br></div>Sandeep<br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri=
, Feb 28, 2014 at 2:58 PM, G=F6ran Selander <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">goran.selander@er=
icsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Hannes,<br>
<br>
I have read your draft and I think it is motivating well the usefulness of<=
br>
a three party protocol and the candidate protocols in this context. I<br>
would like to add to the list of candidate protocols the Multimedia<br>
Internet KEYing protocol (MIKEY, RFC 3830), or more specifically<br>
MIKEY-TICKET (RFC 6043).<br>
<br>
MIKEY is a lightweight key management protocol designed for peer-to-peer,<b=
r>
one-to-many and small sized groups. MICKEY-TICKET is specifically<br>
addressing the case of a trusted key management service (=B3Authorization<b=
r>
Server=B2) like other three party authentication protocols considered and<b=
r>
reuses the ticket concept from Kerberos, but also adds e.g. public-key<br>
encryption-based key distribution and, as mentioned, group key management.<=
br>
It also has the concept of =B3Ticket Policy=B2 containing certain<br>
authorization information.<br>
<br>
Clearly, Kerberos is more widely deployed, but I think this protocol<br>
merits to be considered in the evaluation.<br>
<br>
<br>
G=F6ran<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 16/02/14 14:15, &quot;Hannes Tschofenig&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hann=
es.tschofenig@gmx.net">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;last Friday I have submitted a document that informs about available<br=
>
&gt;three party authentication and authorization protocols developed in the=
<br>
&gt;IETF.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;The described security protocols are Kerberos, OAuth, ABFAB (which<br>
&gt;builds on the AAA/EAP architecture), and the certificate/PKI model.<br>
&gt;With each protocol I provide references to the relevant specifications<=
br>
&gt;and a discussion about the pros &amp; cons. As you can imagine, there w=
as a<br>
&gt;lot of standardization work on each of these protocols and quite<br>
&gt;naturally there are many extensions available. Not all of them are<br>
&gt;relevant for the IoT context.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I have not yet tried to map the features of the protocols against the<b=
r>
&gt;use cases and requirements since those are obviously still in flux. For=
<br>
&gt;a future version of the document this is, however, the goal.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;In any case, here is the document:<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview=
-00</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I am looking forward to see your reaction to the document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Ciao<br>
&gt;Hannes<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From nobody Sun Mar  2 07:29:46 2014
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Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 16:29:28 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot-02
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Dear Hannes,
> Hi Corinna, Hi Burkhard,
>
> thanks for your document. I have read through it and I ran into a few
> questions. Your response would help me to better understand the proposed
> idea.
Thanks for reading the draft and make comments to it to improve it. Some 
comments can be answered right away.
> 1) Why do you assume IEEE 802.15.4? Currently it seems that the 15.4
> radio will mostly be used in specialized industry segments only. Is
> there anything in the document that would make the idea less suitable
> for other radio technologies, for example BTLE?
Potentially the proposed solution can work on every stack you like. So 
you can do an implementation independently of IEEE 802.15.4.
We put IEEE 802.15.4 there, because our used stack (BLIP) uses it.
> 2) The assumed network stack does not show 6lowpan. Was this intentional?
Same as above. You can use the stack you want. So also 6lowpan can be 
used. It depends n you what you require and what you want to support.
> 3) You show RPL in the stack and I was wondering whether you assume it
> being mandatory to implement for your assumed architecture? It does not
> seem to show up elsewhere in the document. It appears to be irrelevant
> for your design.
RPL was just mentioned due to our other publications. Currently our plan 
is to change to RPL (CoAP) in the future.
> 4) Subscriber identity: You write --
> "
>     The identity of a default subscriber is usually preconfigured on a
>     publisher before it is deployed.
> "
>
> Could you explain more what you assume is pre-configured and where it is
> preconfigured?
Here pre-configures means that our devices are equipped with the 
certification during compiling and programming them before deployment.
This is due to the application scenario we support at the moment. Before 
deploying the device you have to run to steps: First creation of 
certificate, and second compiling code and play it on the device.
> I would also suggest to avoid the term subscriber since it has two other
> meanings that might confuse:
>   a) The term subscriber is often used in context of telecommunication as
> the user who has a contract with a telecommunication operator.
>   b) The second use is in context of protocols that use asynchronous
> communication (like XMPP).
>
> I believe your notion of subscriber does not relate to those two
> existing uses. I guess you are more using the term subscriber to refer
> to a device that wants some data from a sensor. Is this correct?
Thanks for the hint. Yes you are right. The subscriber should be a 
device that wants data from the sensor.
Usually this is one outside of the WSN. Do you have a suggestion for new 
name?
> 5) Roles in your architecture.
>
> It seems that you assume that the IoT devices are publishers and that
> there are subscribers who talk to these publishers. In some other cases
> I have seen architectures where the IoT devices (sensors) upload the
> data to some servers without having to act as servers themselves. In
> your architecture it feels like the sensor nodes implement the
> server-side functionality
That was not our intention.
Our network has push characteristics up to the server. Data publishing 
runs over server, because it has more resources and, therefore, can 
handle requests better. It is the gate to the world.
Pull is only performed if you require data (measurements) at a time that 
is not pre-defined.
> In Section 4.2.2 you write that you recommend an OpenSSL implementation
> on the server side but the server-side would be the IoT device. While it
> would be inappropriate to recommend a specific implementation in an IETF
> draft/RFC it also raises the questions about the expectations on the
> server-side.
Thanks for the hint.
We use OpenSSL on the server but not within the WSN. OpenSSL is used 
especially for managing rights, requests, and certificates.
> 6. Certificate content
>
> In Section 4.2.2 you describe the content of a certificate and you
> indicate that the commonName is set to "localhost". It seems to be
> useless to include this in the certificate since a CA would not be able
> to verify this identity information nor would any party verifying it be
> able to use it in a meaningful way.
Localhost in our case is a special IP address (here: sink). You are 
right, we should rename it and make clear that it is an IP address. So 
you can set is like you want.
> It also seems to be in violation of what you write in Section 5.2 where
> you state that "every publisher in the network MUST have an unique
> identity.".
>
> You also indicated more complete information for inclusion in the
> certificate but it is not clear to me what purpose it serves. Could you
> explain?
Will do it asap.
> 7. Privacy
>
> In Section 5 you indicate some privacy related aspects and you hint to "
> access regulations based on legal and regulative implications". Could
> you briefly explain what those requirements are?
This part we put in due to the deployment and project relations we are 
running at the moment.
Here it means that not every device can be able to access the data, for 
example, due to legal issues in the region (EU, CH, US rights).
This has to be stored central in the network and it has to be checked 
before giving access and creating the corresponding access ticket.
Here we refer to the following publications:

Radhika Garg, Corinna Schmitt, Burkhard Stiller: /Investigating 
Regulative Implications for User-generated Content and a Design 
Proposal/; Degruyter, PIK-Praxis der Informationsverarbeitung und 
Kommunikation, Vol. 36, No. 4, December 2013, ISSN 0930-5157, pp 1--11. 
doi:10.1515/pik-2013-0042 <http://dx.doi.org/10.1515/pik-2013-0042> URL: 
http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/piko.ahead-of-print/pik-2013-0042/pik-2013-0042.xml

Radhika Garg, Christos Tsiaras, Burkhard Stiller, Corinna Schmitt, 
Daniel Dönni: /Deliverable D7.1 - Basics, Requirements, Scenarios, and 
Architecture: In FLAMINGO/; Radhika Garg (Edt.), Zürich, Switzerland, 
October 2013
> 8. Use Cases.
>
> I suggest to omit the use cases from the document since the description
> is too brief to be useful. A small remark: From my work in the emergency
> services environment I had gotten the impression that there are no plans
> to take sensor input directly when initiating alerts. In fact, sensor
> alerts do rarely even get directly to the emergency services authorities
> but are rather pre-processed by an intermediate organization (by
> humans). Maybe you have spoken with other people, who have different
> plans. Where did you got your information from?
This section is based on discussion with our project partners within 
SmartenIT (www.smartenit.eu) and Flamingo ( http://www.fp7-flamingo.eu). 
<http://www.fp7-flamingo.eu>

> 9. Architecture
>
> Figure 3 shows the architecture but it is a bit confusing since it is
> not clear what the boxes and the lines mean. The publisher is a box
> separate from the sensors and from the earlier description I thought
> that the sensors are actually the publishers. Furthermore, the gateway
> was not discussed as a role up to that point in the document. The
> gateway shows up in Section 5.3 and its role confuses me. You write:
>
> "  A sensor node has published its data, which is transmitted in
>     direction to the global sink (cf. Figure 3 where global sink is
>     located in the gateway component).
> "
>
> Does the sensor publish the data at the gateway? From the earlier
> sections I thought that the subscriber talks to the publisher instead.
> Is the gateway the subscriber? Why doesn't the sensor uploads the data
> to some server instead (which is frequently done in today's IoT
> deployments).
Lots of comments.
I will address and clarify them asap.
Furthermore, I will add a legend to the Figure and perhaps modify it 
based on you aforementioned comments.
> Why do you call the entire document "two-way authentication" when the
> the two way authentication is just one small part of the overall
> authentication procedure. In fact the two-way authentication is used
> between the subscriber and the access control server (as shown in Figure
> 4), and between the publisher and the gateway. Furthermore, there has to
> be some authentication between the subscriber and the publisher as well
> (at least I hope so).
>
> What is the purpose of the access ticket? It shows up in Section 5.3 and
> I wonder why there is a need for an access ticket when the two parties
> (subscriber and publisher) already have a certificate. Why cannot you
> use the certificate for authentication with the publisher right away?
>
> Where do you see the access control server being deployed? Is this an
> entity in the local network or something you would have on the Internet?
>
> Why does the publisher have to authenticate to the gateway? From Figure
> 4 it is not clear whether the gateway is just an optional component or
> an integral part of the architecture.
>
> The document does not explain what the access token is and how it is
> exchanged between the subscriber and the publisher.
>
> Btw, the term CA standards for Certification Authority rather than
> Certificate Authority.

Will be addressed soon.
> 10. Hardware requirements.
>
> Hardware requirements typically are not appropriate for IETF documents.
> While you make the argument that an RSA-based public key cryptosystem is
> good enough from a performance point of view the currently mandatory
> ciphersuites used in CoAP are based on ECC (for those that rely on
> asymmetric crypto). While having hardware support for key storage is a
> great idea I was wondering how much your architecture actually relies on
> it. My impression that it would work fine just without a TPM chip. But
> you might have more hardware experience than I have. Could you point me
> to some hardware that you have in mind using?
>
We put this section for completeness and to show that an implementation 
exists.
Concerning sensor nodes and TPM we are using OPAL from CSIRO. Trusting 
Computing becomes relevant nowadays when thinking about securing data. 
Drawback is that if the TPM chip is broken or you change something 
during booting everything is lost. Advantage is that the storage root 
key is stored safely and only derivates are used for your applications.

Hope to answer most important questions or comments now. Others will be 
addressed soon.
You can also talk to me during IETF in London.

Regards,
Corinna


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    <div class="moz-signature">Dear Hannes,
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi Corinna, Hi Burkhard,

thanks for your document. I have read through it and I ran into a few
questions. Your response would help me to better understand the proposed
idea.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Thanks for reading the draft and make comments to it to improve
      it. Some comments can be answered right away. <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">1) Why do you assume IEEE 802.15.4? Currently it seems that the 15.4
radio will mostly be used in specialized industry segments only. Is
there anything in the document that would make the idea less suitable
for other radio technologies, for example BTLE?</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Potentially the proposed solution can work on every stack you
      like. So you can do an implementation independently of IEEE
      802.15.4.<br>
      We put IEEE 802.15.4 there, because our used stack (BLIP) uses it.
      <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">2) The assumed network stack does not show 6lowpan. Was this intentional?</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Same as above. You can use the stack you want. So also 6lowpan can
      be used. It depends n you what you require and what you want to
      support.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">3) You show RPL in the stack and I was wondering whether you assume it
being mandatory to implement for your assumed architecture? It does not
seem to show up elsewhere in the document. It appears to be irrelevant
for your design.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      RPL was just mentioned due to our other publications. Currently
      our plan is to change to RPL (CoAP) in the future.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">4) Subscriber identity: You write --
"
   The identity of a default subscriber is usually preconfigured on a
   publisher before it is deployed.
"

Could you explain more what you assume is pre-configured and where it is
preconfigured?</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Here pre-configures means that our devices are equipped with the
      certification during compiling and programming them before
      deployment.<br>
      This is due to the application scenario we support at the moment.
      Before deploying the device you have to run to steps: First
      creation of certificate, and second compiling code and play it on
      the device.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">I would also suggest to avoid the term subscriber since it has two other
meanings that might confuse:
 a) The term subscriber is often used in context of telecommunication as
the user who has a contract with a telecommunication operator.
 b) The second use is in context of protocols that use asynchronous
communication (like XMPP).

I believe your notion of subscriber does not relate to those two
existing uses. I guess you are more using the term subscriber to refer
to a device that wants some data from a sensor. Is this correct?</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Thanks for the hint. Yes you are right. The subscriber should be a
      device that wants data from the sensor.<br>
      Usually this is one outside of the WSN. Do you have a suggestion
      for new name?<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">5) Roles in your architecture.

It seems that you assume that the IoT devices are publishers and that
there are subscribers who talk to these publishers. In some other cases
I have seen architectures where the IoT devices (sensors) upload the
data to some servers without having to act as servers themselves. In
your architecture it feels like the sensor nodes implement the
server-side functionality</pre>
      </blockquote>
      That was not our intention. <br>
      Our network has push characteristics up to the server. Data
      publishing runs over server, because it has more resources and,
      therefore, can handle requests better. It is the gate to the
      world.<br>
      Pull is only performed if you require data (measurements) at a
      time that is not pre-defined. <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">In Section 4.2.2 you write that you recommend an OpenSSL implementation
on the server side but the server-side would be the IoT device. While it
would be inappropriate to recommend a specific implementation in an IETF
draft/RFC it also raises the questions about the expectations on the
server-side.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Thanks for the hint. <br>
      We use OpenSSL on the server but not within the WSN. OpenSSL is
      used especially for managing rights, requests, and certificates.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">6. Certificate content

In Section 4.2.2 you describe the content of a certificate and you
indicate that the commonName is set to "localhost". It seems to be
useless to include this in the certificate since a CA would not be able
to verify this identity information nor would any party verifying it be
able to use it in a meaningful way.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Localhost in our case is a special IP address (here: sink). You
      are right, we should rename it and make clear that it is an IP
      address. So you can set is like you want.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">It also seems to be in violation of what you write in Section 5.2 where
you state that "every publisher in the network MUST have an unique
identity.".

You also indicated more complete information for inclusion in the
certificate but it is not clear to me what purpose it serves. Could you
explain?</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Will do it asap.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">7. Privacy

In Section 5 you indicate some privacy related aspects and you hint to "
access regulations based on legal and regulative implications". Could
you briefly explain what those requirements are?</pre>
      </blockquote>
      This part we put in due to the deployment and project relations we
      are running at the moment. <br>
      Here it means that not every device can be able to access the
      data, for example, due to legal issues in the region (EU, CH, US
      rights).<br>
      This has to be stored central in the network and it has to be
      checked before giving access and creating the corresponding access
      ticket.<br>
      Here we refer to the following publications:<br>
      <br>
      Radhika Garg, Corinna Schmitt, Burkhard Stiller: <i>Investigating
        Regulative Implications for User-generated Content and a Design
        Proposal</i>; Degruyter, PIK-Praxis der Informationsverarbeitung
      und Kommunikation, Vol. 36, No. 4, December 2013, ISSN 0930-5157,
      pp 1&#8211;11. doi:<a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1515/pik-2013-0042"
        class="more" target="_blank">10.1515/pik-2013-0042</a> URL: <a
href="http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/piko.ahead-of-print/pik-2013-0042/pik-2013-0042.xml"
        class="www" target="_blank">http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/piko.ahead-of-print/pik-2013-0042/pik-2013-0042.xml</a><br>
      <br>
      Radhika Garg, Christos Tsiaras, Burkhard Stiller, Corinna Schmitt,
      Daniel D&ouml;nni: <i>Deliverable D7.1 - Basics, Requirements,
        Scenarios, and Architecture: In FLAMINGO</i>; Radhika Garg
      (Edt.), Z&uuml;rich, Switzerland, October 2013<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">8. Use Cases.

I suggest to omit the use cases from the document since the description
is too brief to be useful. A small remark: From my work in the emergency
services environment I had gotten the impression that there are no plans
to take sensor input directly when initiating alerts. In fact, sensor
alerts do rarely even get directly to the emergency services authorities
but are rather pre-processed by an intermediate organization (by
humans). Maybe you have spoken with other people, who have different
plans. Where did you got your information from?</pre>
      </blockquote>
      This section is based on discussion with our project partners
      within SmartenIT (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
        href="http://www.smartenit.eu">www.smartenit.eu</a>) and
      Flamingo ( <a href="http://www.fp7-flamingo.eu" class="www">http://www.fp7-flamingo.eu).</a><br>
      <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">9. Architecture

Figure 3 shows the architecture but it is a bit confusing since it is
not clear what the boxes and the lines mean. The publisher is a box
separate from the sensors and from the earlier description I thought
that the sensors are actually the publishers. Furthermore, the gateway
was not discussed as a role up to that point in the document. The
gateway shows up in Section 5.3 and its role confuses me. You write:

"  A sensor node has published its data, which is transmitted in
   direction to the global sink (cf. Figure 3 where global sink is
   located in the gateway component).
"

Does the sensor publish the data at the gateway? From the earlier
sections I thought that the subscriber talks to the publisher instead.
Is the gateway the subscriber? Why doesn't the sensor uploads the data
to some server instead (which is frequently done in today's IoT
deployments).
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Lots of comments.<br>
      I will address and clarify them asap.<br>
      Furthermore, I will add a legend to the Figure and perhaps modify
      it based on you aforementioned comments.
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Why do you call the entire document "two-way authentication" when the
the two way authentication is just one small part of the overall
authentication procedure. In fact the two-way authentication is used
between the subscriber and the access control server (as shown in Figure
4), and between the publisher and the gateway. Furthermore, there has to
be some authentication between the subscriber and the publisher as well
(at least I hope so).

What is the purpose of the access ticket? It shows up in Section 5.3 and
I wonder why there is a need for an access ticket when the two parties
(subscriber and publisher) already have a certificate. Why cannot you
use the certificate for authentication with the publisher right away?

Where do you see the access control server being deployed? Is this an
entity in the local network or something you would have on the Internet?

Why does the publisher have to authenticate to the gateway? From Figure
4 it is not clear whether the gateway is just an optional component or
an integral part of the architecture.

The document does not explain what the access token is and how it is
exchanged between the subscriber and the publisher.

Btw, the term CA standards for Certification Authority rather than
Certificate Authority.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Will be addressed soon.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:53086642.5050609@gmx.net" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">10. Hardware requirements.

Hardware requirements typically are not appropriate for IETF documents.
While you make the argument that an RSA-based public key cryptosystem is
good enough from a performance point of view the currently mandatory
ciphersuites used in CoAP are based on ECC (for those that rely on
asymmetric crypto). While having hardware support for key storage is a
great idea I was wondering how much your architecture actually relies on
it. My impression that it would work fine just without a TPM chip. But
you might have more hardware experience than I have. Could you point me
to some hardware that you have in mind using?

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      We put this section for completeness and to show that an
      implementation exists.<br>
      Concerning sensor nodes and TPM we are using OPAL from CSIRO.
      Trusting Computing becomes relevant nowadays when thinking about
      securing data. Drawback is that if the TPM chip is broken or you
      change something during booting everything is lost. Advantage is
      that the storage root key is stored safely and only derivates are
      used for your applications.<br>
      <br>
      Hope to answer most important questions or comments now. Others
      will be addressed soon.<br>
      You can also talk to me during IETF in London.<br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      Corinna<br>
      <br>
    </div>
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--------------070808020103020504020001--


From nobody Mon Mar  3 03:37:13 2014
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 12:37:02 +0100
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00.txt
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I don't understand how MIKEY fits in here. I will have a look at the
draft before I say something stupid.

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/02/2014 09:09 AM, Sandeep Kumar wrote:
> Agree with G=F6ran that MIKEY is a very promising algorithm for the IoT=

> domain.
> There has been some work to adapt it to the context of LLN,  AMIKEY
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-alexander-roll-mikey-lln-key-mgmt-04
> That work seems to have stopped progressing. Good to check how (A)MIKEY=

> can be used in the ACE context.
>=20
> regards
> Sandeep
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 2:58 PM, G=F6ran Selander
> <goran.selander@ericsson.com <mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com>> wrot=
e:
>=20
>     Hi Hannes,
>=20
>     I have read your draft and I think it is motivating well the
>     usefulness of
>     a three party protocol and the candidate protocols in this context.=
 I
>     would like to add to the list of candidate protocols the Multimedia=

>     Internet KEYing protocol (MIKEY, RFC 3830), or more specifically
>     MIKEY-TICKET (RFC 6043).
>=20
>     MIKEY is a lightweight key management protocol designed for
>     peer-to-peer,
>     one-to-many and small sized groups. MICKEY-TICKET is specifically
>     addressing the case of a trusted key management service (=B3Authori=
zation
>     Server=B2) like other three party authentication protocols consider=
ed and
>     reuses the ticket concept from Kerberos, but also adds e.g. public-=
key
>     encryption-based key distribution and, as mentioned, group key
>     management.
>     It also has the concept of =B3Ticket Policy=B2 containing certain
>     authorization information.
>=20
>     Clearly, Kerberos is more widely deployed, but I think this protoco=
l
>     merits to be considered in the evaluation.
>=20
>=20
>     G=F6ran
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     On 16/02/14 14:15, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net
>     <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>> wrote:
>=20
>     >Hi all,
>     >
>     >last Friday I have submitted a document that informs about availab=
le
>     >three party authentication and authorization protocols developed i=
n the
>     >IETF.
>     >
>     >The described security protocols are Kerberos, OAuth, ABFAB (which=

>     >builds on the AAA/EAP architecture), and the certificate/PKI model=
=2E
>     >With each protocol I provide references to the relevant specificat=
ions
>     >and a discussion about the pros & cons. As you can imagine, there =
was a
>     >lot of standardization work on each of these protocols and quite
>     >naturally there are many extensions available. Not all of them are=

>     >relevant for the IoT context.
>     >
>     >I have not yet tried to map the features of the protocols against =
the
>     >use cases and requirements since those are obviously still in flux=
=2E For
>     >a future version of the document this is, however, the goal.
>     >
>     >In any case, here is the document:
>     >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00
>     >
>     >I am looking forward to see your reaction to the document.
>     >
>     >Ciao
>     >Hannes
>     >
>     >
>=20
>     _______________________________________________
>     Ace mailing list
>     Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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Hello all,

Here is the link for the materials presented during today's ACE BoF session=
:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/89/materials.html

Kind Regards
Kepeng

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Here is the link for the materi=
als presented during today&#8217;s ACE BoF session:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/meeting/89/materials.html">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/89=
/materials.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kepeng<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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From nobody Wed Mar  5 06:32:37 2014
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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:32:27 +0100
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Hi all,

I would like to thank you all for the great discussion today at the BOF.
There was good feedback and the following scoping aspect showed up.

In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
as part of a future working group.

There was not enough time to go down to the details during the session
due to lack of time. Hence, I will try to clarify this aspect on the
mailing list.

Let us have a look at the high level architecture:

                                          +---------------+
                                          | Authorization |
             +--------------------------->|  Server       |
             |        (I)                 +---------------+
             |                                  ^
             |                                  |
             |                                  |
             |                                  | III
             |                                  |
             |                                  |
             |                                  |
             v                                  v
        +-----------+                     +-----+-----+
        |           |      II             | Resource  |
        |   Client  | <..................>| Server    |
        +-----------+                     +-----------+

I: This is the interaction where keying and authorization information is
provided to the client.

II: This is the resource access.

III: This is a potential exchange necessary for having the resource
server interacting with the authorization server for authenticating the
client and for authorizing the client.

(The exact details of the interaction depend on the specific solution,
of course.)

As you can see in the figure, there are various places where DTLS and
CoAP should or shouldn't be used.

A few persons said that they want to use other protocols besides CoAP
and DTLS.

Please explain me where you would like to other protocols being taken
into consideration. What protocols are you considering in which of these
interfaces?

Ciao
Hannes


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From nobody Wed Mar  5 07:05:50 2014
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Charter discussion Thursday afternoon 15:20 ~ 16:50, at the IETF lounge
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Hello all,

Thanks for your interest about ACE BoF.

As discussed during our BoF meeting, there are some open issues for the cha=
rter, and we plan to have further offline discussion on Thursday afternoon,=
 15:20 ~ 16:50, at the IETF lounge.

If you don't have meeting conflict, please join us.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks for your interest about =
ACE BoF.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As discussed during our BoF mee=
ting, there are some open issues for the charter, and we plan to have furth=
er offline discussion on Thursday afternoon, 15:20 ~ 16:50, at the IETF lou=
nge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you don&#8217;t have meeting=
 conflict, please join us.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kepeng<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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FYI: Here my short summary from the BOF (as a write-up for the SAAG).


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [saag] IETF#89 ACE Summary
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:57:16 +0100
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
To: saag@ietf.org

We held the ACE BOF this morning from 9am to 11:30am.

We started with a presentation about what constrained node networks are,
explained use cases & requirements and discussed design choices. We
concluded with a gap analysis.

There was good support for doing the work in the IETF and there was a
fair amount of feedback from the audience regarding the charter text.
About 30 persons indicated that they are willing to review
specifications and 15 persons said that they will be contributing
documents.

The feedback from the audience included:

- Scope of the work

Should it be focused on CoAP / DTLS only? In particular, the question
about the suitability of the developed solutions for HTTP and SMS
transport was raised.

- Assumptions

What assumptions are being made by the use cases in terms of requirement
for a clock, interworking with existing infrastructure, interaction with
proxies, and intermittent connectivity of different parties (off-line
use cases).

- Provisioning of credentials and other configuration parameters

Participants suggested to consider looking at the entire life cycle of
these IoT devices to prevent problems later with provisioning. While
those do not necessarily be standardized in this group there was a
desire to avoid later problems.

As next steps the charter discussions will have to continue to resolve
some of the raised questions. The BOF chairs encouraged the audience to
develop strawman proposals to gain further experience about the
underlying assumptions.

Ciao
Hannes





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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Hi Hannes,


Just looking at interface (I): If the client is not constrained I think
HTTP/TLS should be an option to COAP/DTLS.

Adding to the discussion about HTTP/COAP proxies in the meeting: If both
the authorisation information and the keying information is object secure
(JWT, CMS, =8A) there is no need to trust the proxy.



G=F6ran




On 05/03/14 14:32, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I would like to thank you all for the great discussion today at the BOF.
>There was good feedback and the following scoping aspect showed up.
>
>In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
>as part of a future working group.
>
>There was not enough time to go down to the details during the session
>due to lack of time. Hence, I will try to clarify this aspect on the
>mailing list.
>
>Let us have a look at the high level architecture:
>
>                                          +---------------+
>                                          | Authorization |
>             +--------------------------->|  Server       |
>             |        (I)                 +---------------+
>             |                                  ^
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  | III
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             v                                  v
>        +-----------+                     +-----+-----+
>        |           |      II             | Resource  |
>        |   Client  | <..................>| Server    |
>        +-----------+                     +-----------+
>
>I: This is the interaction where keying and authorization information is
>provided to the client.
>
>II: This is the resource access.
>
>III: This is a potential exchange necessary for having the resource
>server interacting with the authorization server for authenticating the
>client and for authorizing the client.
>
>(The exact details of the interaction depend on the specific solution,
>of course.)
>
>As you can see in the figure, there are various places where DTLS and
>CoAP should or shouldn't be used.
>
>A few persons said that they want to use other protocols besides CoAP
>and DTLS.
>
>Please explain me where you would like to other protocols being taken
>into consideration. What protocols are you considering in which of these
>interfaces?
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>


From nobody Wed Mar  5 10:35:21 2014
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From: Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
To: =?Windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:35:08 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Hi,

One of the "other" things mentioned was SMS, but that was just a misunderst=
anding. They were looking for DTLS support for SMS, which would be somethin=
g for the TLS working group and not ACE. And with such support, of course t=
hat is CoAP/DTLS. So no issues on that one.

I think that on any one of those interfaces either CoAP/DTLS or HTTP/TLS co=
uld be used depending on the node and network. (ii) will typically be CoAP/=
DTLS as this is the whole point of the working group. (i) and possibly (iii=
) could be either.

Being the one that brought up the "proxy" issue, I probably used a really p=
oor choice of words there. What I really meant was this duality of an HTTP/=
TLS based solution (OAuth) or a CoAP/DTLS solution on those interfaces, but=
 choose one and run it end-to-end.

Zach

On Mar 5, 2014, at 6:23 PM, G=F6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com> =
wrote:

> Hi Hannes,
>
>
> Just looking at interface (I): If the client is not constrained I think
> HTTP/TLS should be an option to COAP/DTLS.
>
> Adding to the discussion about HTTP/COAP proxies in the meeting: If both
> the authorisation information and the keying information is object secure
> (JWT, CMS, =8A) there is no need to trust the proxy.
>
>
>
> G=F6ran
>
>
>
>
> On 05/03/14 14:32, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to thank you all for the great discussion today at the BOF.
>> There was good feedback and the following scoping aspect showed up.
>>
>> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
>> as part of a future working group.
>>
>> There was not enough time to go down to the details during the session
>> due to lack of time. Hence, I will try to clarify this aspect on the
>> mailing list.
>>
>> Let us have a look at the high level architecture:
>>
>>                                         +---------------+
>>                                         | Authorization |
>>            +--------------------------->|  Server       |
>>            |        (I)                 +---------------+
>>            |                                  ^
>>            |                                  |
>>            |                                  |
>>            |                                  | III
>>            |                                  |
>>            |                                  |
>>            |                                  |
>>            v                                  v
>>       +-----------+                     +-----+-----+
>>       |           |      II             | Resource  |
>>       |   Client  | <..................>| Server    |
>>       +-----------+                     +-----------+
>>
>> I: This is the interaction where keying and authorization information is
>> provided to the client.
>>
>> II: This is the resource access.
>>
>> III: This is a potential exchange necessary for having the resource
>> server interacting with the authorization server for authenticating the
>> client and for authorizing the client.
>>
>> (The exact details of the interaction depend on the specific solution,
>> of course.)
>>
>> As you can see in the figure, there are various places where DTLS and
>> CoAP should or shouldn't be used.
>>
>> A few persons said that they want to use other protocols besides CoAP
>> and DTLS.
>>
>> Please explain me where you would like to other protocols being taken
>> into consideration. What protocols are you considering in which of these
>> interfaces?
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>

Zach Shelby
Director of Technology
ARM Internet of Things BU
www.arm.com
mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
Skype: zdshelby
LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/


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Subject: [Ace] IoT Chill-out on Friday, 5pm
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Hi all,

I was wondering whether some of you are still around on Friday
afternoon. In case there is interest to have a relaxed chat (maybe with
a drink) with IoT-minded persons I would suggest to gather in the Hilton
hotel bar at 5pm.

Feel free to forward the message to other IoT-related groups.

Ciao
Hannes


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On 06 Mar 2014, at 13:22, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> =
wrote:

> Hi all,
>=20
> I was wondering whether some of you are still around on Friday
> afternoon. In case there is interest to have a relaxed chat (maybe =
with
> a drink) with IoT-minded persons I would suggest to gather in the =
Hilton
> hotel bar at 5pm.

At that time, some of us are over at the Marriott hotel plugtesting away =
at CoAP, DTLS, OMA LWM2M, and 6LoWPAN.

http://www.etsi.org/news-events/events/741-plugtests-2014-coap4

(JFYI in case you wonder whether implementers don=92t socialize :-)

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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Subject: Re: [Ace] IoT Chill-out on Friday, 5pm
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Thanks, Carsten.

I hope that the plugtesting event will finish at some point in time.
The webpage does not indicate when it finishes on the Friday.

It would be great if implementers could join.

On 03/06/2014 02:48 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 06 Mar 2014, at 13:22, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>=
 wrote:
>=20
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was wondering whether some of you are still around on Friday
>> afternoon. In case there is interest to have a relaxed chat (maybe wit=
h
>> a drink) with IoT-minded persons I would suggest to gather in the Hilt=
on
>> hotel bar at 5pm.
>=20
> At that time, some of us are over at the Marriott hotel plugtesting awa=
y at CoAP, DTLS, OMA LWM2M, and 6LoWPAN.
>=20
> http://www.etsi.org/news-events/events/741-plugtests-2014-coap4
>=20
> (JFYI in case you wonder whether implementers don=92t socialize :-)
>=20
> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>=20


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From nobody Thu Mar  6 05:52:37 2014
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Thanks for the invitation Hannes ... I'll be on my way out of London then, s=
o I won't b able to join you.

- Ralph

> On Mar 6, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> w=
rote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I was wondering whether some of you are still around on Friday
> afternoon. In case there is interest to have a relaxed chat (maybe with
> a drink) with IoT-minded persons I would suggest to gather in the Hilton
> hotel bar at 5pm.
>=20
> Feel free to forward the message to other IoT-related groups.
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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rim:punctuation">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Reminde=
r. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">See you=
 soon!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Kind Re=
gards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Kepeng<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D=
"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:SimSun"> Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=B4=FA=B1=ED =
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSu=
n">Likepeng<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=CB=CD=
=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> 2014</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-US">3</span>=D4=C2<=
span lang=3D"EN-US">5</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 15:03<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> ace@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> [Ace] Charter discussion Thursday afternoon 15:20 ~ 16:50, at the IETF lo=
unge<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks for your interest about =
ACE BoF.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As discussed during our BoF mee=
ting, there are some open issues for the charter, and we plan to have furth=
er offline discussion on Thursday afternoon, 15:20 ~ 16:50, at the IETF lou=
nge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you don=A1=AFt have meeting =
conflict, please join us.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kepeng<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252B00E57SZXEMA501MBSchi_--


From nobody Thu Mar  6 07:43:35 2014
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:43:10 +0000
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] IoT Chill-out on Friday, 5pm
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Is the meeting in the lounge happening today?

Phil

> On Mar 6, 2014, at 13:50, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wr=
ote:
>=20
> Thanks, Carsten.
>=20
> I hope that the plugtesting event will finish at some point in time.
> The webpage does not indicate when it finishes on the Friday.
>=20
> It would be great if implementers could join.
>=20
>> On 03/06/2014 02:48 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> On 06 Mar 2014, at 13:22, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> w=
rote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi all,
>>>=20
>>> I was wondering whether some of you are still around on Friday
>>> afternoon. In case there is interest to have a relaxed chat (maybe with
>>> a drink) with IoT-minded persons I would suggest to gather in the Hilton=

>>> hotel bar at 5pm.
>>=20
>> At that time, some of us are over at the Marriott hotel plugtesting away a=
t CoAP, DTLS, OMA LWM2M, and 6LoWPAN.
>>=20
>> http://www.etsi.org/news-events/events/741-plugtests-2014-coap4
>>=20
>> (JFYI in case you wonder whether implementers don=E2=80=99t socialize :-)=

>>=20
>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Thu Mar  6 07:50:24 2014
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From: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:50:11 +0000
In-Reply-To: <53187D40.7060206@gmx.net> (Hannes Tschofenig's message of "Thu,  06 Mar 2014 14:50:56 +0100")
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Subject: Re: [Ace] IoT Chill-out on Friday, 5pm
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Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> writes:

> Thanks, Carsten.
>
> I hope that the plugtesting event will finish at some point in time.
> The webpage does not indicate when it finishes on the Friday.

The updated schedule from today has set the end of the last test slot 
to 7:30pm.

Gruesse
Olaf


From nobody Thu Mar  6 11:12:28 2014
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Charter discussion Thursday afternoon 15:20 ~ 16:50, at the IETF lounge
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ACE BoF summary for CoRE session 
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 19:19:40 +0000
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Hello all,

Hannes and I made ACE BoF summary slides and it will be presented in CoRE s=
ession tomorrow.

Welcome to join CoRE session tomorrow.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hannes and I made ACE BoF summa=
ry slides and it will be presented in CoRE session tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Welcome to join CoRE session to=
morrow.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kepeng <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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--_004_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252B010A9SZXEMA501MBSchi_--


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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:47:30 +0100
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: [Ace] CORRECTION:  IoT Chill-out on Friday, 8pm
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Based on the feedback from various persons I would suggest to gather a
bit later, namely 8pm instead of 5pm as previously proposed.

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/06/2014 02:22 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi all,
>=20
> I was wondering whether some of you are still around on Friday
> afternoon. In case there is interest to have a relaxed chat (maybe with=

> a drink) with IoT-minded persons I would suggest to gather in the Hilto=
n
> hotel bar at 5pm.
>=20
> Feel free to forward the message to other IoT-related groups.
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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From nobody Fri Mar  7 01:05:55 2014
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: CNN input to TLS 1.3
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Hi IoT security fans

Has there been any work on compiling input to TLS 1.3 from constrained
node networks point of view?

If there is anyone still at the Hilton who is interested about this and
care to discuss it I=B9ll be in the "IETF lounge=B2 (East Wing 2nd Lower
Ground Floor) from 9.30 and on for some time.


Thanks
G=F6ran


From nobody Fri Mar  7 02:42:46 2014
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>, =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
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On 05 Mar 2014, at 14:32, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> =
wrote:

> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
> as part of a future working group.

Yes, and (for some reason I don=92t understand) nobody said aloud why =
that focus might be a problem (while, e.g., Sam very clearly said why =
*not* having that focus might be a problem).

It seems to me there is a false choice being presented here.

If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would actively =
have to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.

So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind this =
disagreement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its focus.

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten

*) Smart Energy Profile 2.0, based on a custom XML vocabulary, HTTP, =
TLS, TCP.


From nobody Fri Mar  7 03:00:21 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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> On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
>> On 05 Mar 2014, at 14:32, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> w=
rote:
>>=20
>> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
>> as part of a future working group.
>=20
> Yes, and (for some reason I don=E2=80=99t understand) nobody said aloud wh=
y that focus might be a problem (while, e.g., Sam very clearly said why *not=
* having that focus might be a problem).
>=20
> It seems to me there is a false choice being presented here.
>=20
> If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would actively have=
 to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.

Where is that conclusion assured in the ACE charter or otherwise documented?=


>=20
> So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind this disa=
greement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its focus.

By "legacy" do you mean "not part of a walled garden"?

- Ralph

>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> *) Smart Energy Profile 2.0, based on a custom XML vocabulary, HTTP, TLS, T=
CP.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Fri Mar  7 03:07:22 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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On 07 Mar 2014, at 11:00, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

>> If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would actively =
have to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.
>=20
> Where is that conclusion assured in the ACE charter or otherwise =
documented?

We indeed have to add that consideration.
(It was not part of the feedback that led to the current charter draft.)

>> So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind this =
disagreement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its focus.
>=20
> By "legacy" do you mean "not part of a walled garden=94?

No, legacy as in =93inherited=94.
This profile is out there, so we can=92t ignore it, even if we wanted =
to.

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


From nobody Fri Mar  7 03:11:41 2014
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From nobody Fri Mar  7 03:24:53 2014
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From: Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Hannes - I don't think I can answer your question as you've posed it.  COAP/=
DTLS might or might not be used across any of these interactions.  It really=
 depends on the specific applications and deployment scenario - including co=
nsiderations like scope of intended participants, interest in reusing existi=
ng deployed code, existence of gateways, etc.

- Ralph

> On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:32 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> w=
rote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I would like to thank you all for the great discussion today at the BOF.
> There was good feedback and the following scoping aspect showed up.
>=20
> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
> as part of a future working group.
>=20
> There was not enough time to go down to the details during the session
> due to lack of time. Hence, I will try to clarify this aspect on the
> mailing list.
>=20
> Let us have a look at the high level architecture:
>=20
>                                          +---------------+
>                                          | Authorization |
>             +--------------------------->|  Server       |
>             |        (I)                 +---------------+
>             |                                  ^
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  | III
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             v                                  v
>        +-----------+                     +-----+-----+
>        |           |      II             | Resource  |
>        |   Client  | <..................>| Server    |
>        +-----------+                     +-----------+
>=20
> I: This is the interaction where keying and authorization information is
> provided to the client.
>=20
> II: This is the resource access.
>=20
> III: This is a potential exchange necessary for having the resource
> server interacting with the authorization server for authenticating the
> client and for authorizing the client.
>=20
> (The exact details of the interaction depend on the specific solution,
> of course.)
>=20
> As you can see in the figure, there are various places where DTLS and
> CoAP should or shouldn't be used.
>=20
> A few persons said that they want to use other protocols besides CoAP
> and DTLS.
>=20
> Please explain me where you would like to other protocols being taken
> into consideration. What protocols are you considering in which of these
> interfaces?
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Fri Mar  7 03:25:20 2014
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Subject: [Ace] Fwd: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-sethi-gba-constrained-01.txt
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Hi folks

The chairs of LWIG asked me to submit the draft on GBA implementation guidance to ACE for feedback. While I agree with Hannes that the need for SIM cards might be a show stopper,
any feedback is more than welcome.


--Mohit



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Fwd: New Version Notification for 
draft-sethi-gba-constrained-01.txt
Date: 	Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:54:16 +0200
From: 	Mohit Sethi <mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com>
To: 	lwip@ietf.org



Hi

We have submitted a new draft on implementation experiences and
guidelines for using Generic Bootstrapping Architecture (GBA) as a
bootstrapping mechanism for Constrained devices. We have the necessary
3GPP interfaces (NAF/BSF) for experimentation running on our public
server (p133.piuha.net). Feel free to try it out with your own
implementation.

Comments on the draft are welcome!

--Mohit


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for draft-sethi-gba-constrained-01.txt
Date: 	Thu, 13 Feb 2014 00:42:19 -0800
From: 	<internet-drafts@ietf.org>
To: 	Vesa Lehtovirta <vesa.lehtovirta@ericsson.com>, Patrik Salmela
<patrik.salmela@ericsson.com>, Vesa Lehtovirta
<vesa.lehtovirta@ericsson.com>, Mohit Sethi
<mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com>, Mohit Sethi <mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com>,
Patrik Salmela <patrik.salmela@ericsson.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-sethi-gba-constrained-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Mohit Sethi and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-sethi-gba-constrained
Revision:	01
Title:		Using Generic Bootstrapping Architecture with Constrained Devices
Document date:	2014-02-13
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		18
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sethi-gba-constrained-01.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sethi-gba-constrained/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sethi-gba-constrained-01
Diff:           http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-sethi-gba-constrained-01

Abstract:
     This document discusses the use of the 3GPP Generic Bootstrapping
     Architecture (GBA) for authenticating and securing constrained
     devices.  While GBA re-uses the 3GPP credentials, it does not require
     mobile network access, such as LTE, but requires only IP
     connectivity.  Though building devices that employ GBA is obviously
     well known, this document specifically focuses on techniques
     necessary to minimize memory and energy consumption which is
     essential for constrained device networks.

                                                                                    


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From nobody Fri Mar  7 03:27:03 2014
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 11:26:44 +0000
To: Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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While a 100% constrained case is foundational I think you need to consider d=
ual protocol and mixed protocol cases.=20

Eg. A web server contacting a constrained resource. That server might obtain=
 a token from an http authz server for use against a constrained resource. O=
r it might obtain one from a constrained authz server too.=20

All permutations seem likely to me. So much so, I think a constrained only c=
harter would be problematic.=20

Phil

> On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:00, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On 05 Mar 2014, at 14:32, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> w=
rote:
>>>=20
>>> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
>>> as part of a future working group.
>>=20
>> Yes, and (for some reason I don=E2=80=99t understand) nobody said aloud w=
hy that focus might be a problem (while, e.g., Sam very clearly said why *no=
t* having that focus might be a problem).
>>=20
>> It seems to me there is a false choice being presented here.
>>=20
>> If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would actively hav=
e to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.
>=20
> Where is that conclusion assured in the ACE charter or otherwise documente=
d?
>=20
>>=20
>> So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind this dis=
agreement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its focus.
>=20
> By "legacy" do you mean "not part of a walled garden"?
>=20
> - Ralph
>=20
>>=20
>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>=20
>> *) Smart Energy Profile 2.0, based on a custom XML vocabulary, HTTP, TLS,=
 TCP.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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On 07 Mar 2014, at 11:24, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hannes - I don't think I can answer your question as you've posed it.  =
COAP/DTLS might or might not be used across any of these interactions.  =
It really depends on the specific applications and deployment scenario - =
including considerations like scope of intended participants, interest =
in reusing existing deployed code, existence of gateways, etc.

Indeed, and, again, any reasonable solution that works with CoAP/DTLS =
will work with HTTP/TLS here as well.

What Steffi called I.2 is different from the other arrows as it is often =
not involving constrained nodes at all, so it is here that we want to =
embrace the ecosystem around HTTP/TLS (say, OAuth) more aggressively.

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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Hi Phil

On 07/03/14 11:26, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

>While a 100% constrained case is foundational I think you need to
>consider dual protocol and mixed protocol cases.
>
>Eg. A web server contacting a constrained resource. That server might
>obtain a token from an http authz server for use against a constrained
>resource. Or it might obtain one from a constrained authz server too.

I agree with your statement to consider mixed protocol cases, but just
want to point out that one reason for introducing the authz server is for
offloading a constrained resource server with policy management and
decision. So I would like to to assume that at least the authz server is
less constrained.

G=F6ran



>
>All permutations seem likely to me. So much so, I think a constrained
>only charter would be problematic.
>=20
>
>Phil
>
>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:00, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> On 05 Mar 2014, at 14:32, Hannes Tschofenig
>>>><hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
>>>> as part of a future working group.
>>>=20
>>> Yes, and (for some reason I don=B9t understand) nobody said aloud why
>>>that focus might be a problem (while, e.g., Sam very clearly said why
>>>*not* having that focus might be a problem).
>>>=20
>>> It seems to me there is a false choice being presented here.
>>>=20
>>> If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would actively
>>>have to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.
>>=20
>> Where is that conclusion assured in the ACE charter or otherwise
>>documented?
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind this
>>>disagreement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its focus.
>>=20
>> By "legacy" do you mean "not part of a walled garden"?
>>=20
>> - Ralph
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>>>=20
>>> *) Smart Energy Profile 2.0, based on a custom XML vocabulary, HTTP,
>>>TLS, TCP.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ace mailing list
>Ace@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Agreed. However I can see cases where RS and authz are both constrained beca=
use they are on same server. In this case i would suspect "policy" is largel=
y driven by basic func of the device.=20

I mention this because as/rs on one server occurs frequently on web, not sur=
e constrained would never have this.=20

Phil

> On Mar 7, 2014, at 13:30, G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com=
> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Phil
>=20
>> On 07/03/14 11:26, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> While a 100% constrained case is foundational I think you need to
>> consider dual protocol and mixed protocol cases.
>>=20
>> Eg. A web server contacting a constrained resource. That server might
>> obtain a token from an http authz server for use against a constrained
>> resource. Or it might obtain one from a constrained authz server too.
>=20
> I agree with your statement to consider mixed protocol cases, but just
> want to point out that one reason for introducing the authz server is for
> offloading a constrained resource server with policy management and
> decision. So I would like to to assume that at least the authz server is
> less constrained.
>=20
> G=C3=B6ran
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> All permutations seem likely to me. So much so, I think a constrained
>> only charter would be problematic.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:00, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 05 Mar 2014, at 14:32, Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS=

>>>>> as part of a future working group.
>>>>=20
>>>> Yes, and (for some reason I don=C2=B9t understand) nobody said aloud wh=
y
>>>> that focus might be a problem (while, e.g., Sam very clearly said why
>>>> *not* having that focus might be a problem).
>>>>=20
>>>> It seems to me there is a false choice being presented here.
>>>>=20
>>>> If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would actively
>>>> have to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.
>>>=20
>>> Where is that conclusion assured in the ACE charter or otherwise
>>> documented?
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind this
>>>> disagreement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its focus=
.
>>>=20
>>> By "legacy" do you mean "not part of a walled garden"?
>>>=20
>>> - Ralph
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>>=20
>>>> *) Smart Energy Profile 2.0, based on a custom XML vocabulary, HTTP,
>>>> TLS, TCP.
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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--=-=-=
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


This is what I understand about the concern about scope.
(Gotta love emacs picture-mode... outlook users will need a fixed font)


                                          +---------------+
                                          | Authorization |
             +------------------+-------->|  Server       |
             |        (I)      /          +---------------+
             |       authz    /                 ^
             |               /                  |
          /--------\        /                   |
    (IV)  | oauth  |       /                    | III
          |  proxy |      /                     | authz
          \--------/     /                      |
             |----------/                       |
             v                                  v
        +-----------+         (access)    +-----+-----+
        |           |     /------\  (II)  | Resource  |
        |   Client  | <...|https/|.......>| Server    |
        +-----------+     | coap |        +-----------+
                          | dtls |
                          |proxy | (V)
                          \------/

=3D=3D=3D=3D

IV - is some kind of translator that can take/process OAUTH2 (or some
     other system!) requests into our authorization protocol.  It might
     be that teaching the authorization server itself to speak OAUTH2
     is really the only answer, and that would be fine with me.

V - this is an HTTPS(with OAUTH2 token) to COAP/DTLS (with ACE token) proxy.

It would be nice if (V) did not have to have god/superuser access to the
authorization server. I.e. it would be nice if that proxy could be untrusted
by both the client and the authorization server.=20=20

Does this diagram match what others have been asking about?
(I have intentionally left out the SEP2.0 stuff out of this diagram, as I
have no idea what it uses for authorization)

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson
=2Don the road-








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--=-=-=
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
    > While a 100% constrained case is foundational I think you need to
    > consider dual protocol and mixed protocol cases.

    > Eg. A web server contacting a constrained resource. That server might
    > obtain a token from an http authz server for use against a constrained
    > resource. Or it might obtain one from a constrained authz server too.

1) can we all agree that when you write "100% constrained case", what you
   mean is that all clients and servers can speak CoAP/DTLS, not that
   all nodes are constrainted.
   (In particular that the authz server is not constrained)

2) while I need to re-read the charter (and I can not yet do that from
   the airplane), what I would like to suggest is the following:

   a) that we come up with a protocol that works for where there are no
      proxies to/from CoAP, and that OAUTH2/Kerberos/etc. interoperation
      is out of scope (initially).

   b) that before we claim the protocol is baked in any important way,
      that we, as a WG milestone, do an analysis of proxy interaction,
      and either fix the protocol (if we can), or make that scenario
      out of scope.
      We may have to add MTI pieces to make things work.
      Running code would be good to have at this point.
=20=20=20=20=20=20
What I don't want to do is to fall into some trap where we had what
would been a simple and elegant protocol start it's life ugly.
While we might decide to make it ugly, it should be a conscious choice.

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson
=2Don the road-



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We held the ACE BOF this morning from 9am to 11:30am.

We started with a presentation about what constrained node networks are,
explained use cases & requirements and discussed design choices. We
concluded with a gap analysis.

There was good support for doing the work in the IETF and there was a
fair amount of feedback from the audience regarding the charter text.
About 30 persons indicated that they are willing to review
specifications and 15 persons said that they will be contributing
documents.

The feedback from the audience included:

- Scope of the work

Should it be focused on CoAP / DTLS only? In particular, the question
about the suitability of the developed solutions for HTTP and SMS
transport was raised.

- Assumptions

What assumptions are being made by the use cases in terms of requirement
for a clock, interworking with existing infrastructure, interaction with
proxies, and intermittent connectivity of different parties (off-line
use cases).

- Provisioning of credentials and other configuration parameters

Participants suggested to consider looking at the entire life cycle of
these IoT devices to prevent problems later with provisioning. While
those do not necessarily be standardized in this group there was a
desire to avoid later problems.

As next steps the charter discussions will have to continue to resolve
some of the raised questions. The BOF chairs encouraged the audience to
develop strawman proposals to gain further experience about the
underlying assumptions.

Ciao
Hannes


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Hi Phil

On 07/03/14 14:51, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

>Agreed. However I can see cases where RS and authz are both constrained
>because they are on same server. In this case i would suspect "policy" is
>largely driven by basic func of the device.
>
>I mention this because as/rs on one server occurs frequently on web, not
>sure constrained would never have this.

I would like to see the AS as optional functionality, in cases where the
RS does not have the authz info it requires to decide on grant or deny an
access request. In use cases where it suffices with configured access
policies in the RS (corresponding to what you call =93basic fund=94?) there=
 is
no need for an AS at all.

With this in mind I would like to assume that the AS, when present, is not
a constrained device. Does that make sense or are there still other
options to consider?

Thanks
G=F6ran

>
>Phil
>
>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 13:30, G=F6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
>>wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Phil
>>=20
>>> On 07/03/14 11:26, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> While a 100% constrained case is foundational I think you need to
>>> consider dual protocol and mixed protocol cases.
>>>=20
>>> Eg. A web server contacting a constrained resource. That server might
>>> obtain a token from an http authz server for use against a constrained
>>> resource. Or it might obtain one from a constrained authz server too.
>>=20
>> I agree with your statement to consider mixed protocol cases, but just
>> want to point out that one reason for introducing the authz server is
>>for
>> offloading a constrained resource server with policy management and
>> decision. So I would like to to assume that at least the authz server is
>> less constrained.
>>=20
>> G=F6ran
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> All permutations seem likely to me. So much so, I think a constrained
>>> only charter would be problematic.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:00, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 05 Mar 2014, at 14:32, Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on
>>>>>>CoAP/DTLS
>>>>>> as part of a future working group.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Yes, and (for some reason I don=B9t understand) nobody said aloud why
>>>>> that focus might be a problem (while, e.g., Sam very clearly said why
>>>>> *not* having that focus might be a problem).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It seems to me there is a false choice being presented here.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would actively
>>>>> have to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.
>>>>=20
>>>> Where is that conclusion assured in the ACE charter or otherwise
>>>> documented?
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind this
>>>>> disagreement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its
>>>>>focus.
>>>>=20
>>>> By "legacy" do you mean "not part of a walled garden"?
>>>>=20
>>>> - Ralph
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>>>>>=20
>>>>> *) Smart Energy Profile 2.0, based on a custom XML vocabulary, HTTP,
>>>>> TLS, TCP.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Mon Mar 10 02:00:51 2014
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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:00:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Hi Michael

Just on untrusted intermediaries:

Since the AS needs to protect certain information end-to-end =8B  e.g.
authorisation information to be consumed by the RS, key management
information to be consumed by the Client =8B hop-by-hop transport layer
security would not be sufficient. This case could be handled with object
secure information (some sort of ticket/access token) integrity protected
or encrypted on application layer. As the secure object can't be changed
by an intermediary, it need to be formatted for transfer to the intended
consumer already by the AS, which in particular may need to take into
account a constrained environment.


G=F6ran



On 08/03/14 16:38, "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

>
>This is what I understand about the concern about scope.
>(Gotta love emacs picture-mode... outlook users will need a fixed font)
>
>
>                                          +---------------+
>                                          | Authorization |
>             +------------------+-------->|  Server       |
>             |        (I)      /          +---------------+
>             |       authz    /                 ^
>             |               /                  |
>          /--------\        /                   |
>    (IV)  | oauth  |       /                    | III
>          |  proxy |      /                     | authz
>          \--------/     /                      |
>             |----------/                       |
>             v                                  v
>        +-----------+         (access)    +-----+-----+
>        |           |     /------\  (II)  | Resource  |
>        |   Client  | <...|https/|.......>| Server    |
>        +-----------+     | coap |        +-----------+
>                          | dtls |
>                          |proxy | (V)
>                          \------/
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>IV - is some kind of translator that can take/process OAUTH2 (or some
>     other system!) requests into our authorization protocol.  It might
>     be that teaching the authorization server itself to speak OAUTH2
>     is really the only answer, and that would be fine with me.
>
>V - this is an HTTPS(with OAUTH2 token) to COAP/DTLS (with ACE token)
>proxy.
>
>It would be nice if (V) did not have to have god/superuser access to the
>authorization server. I.e. it would be nice if that proxy could be
>untrusted
>by both the client and the authorization server.
>
>Does this diagram match what others have been asking about?
>(I have intentionally left out the SEP2.0 stuff out of this diagram, as I
>have no idea what it uses for authorization)
>
>--=20
>Michael Richardson
>-on the road-
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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I am thinking that we should design/select an authentication and =
authorization solution that is suitable for the situation where =
interface II is using CoAP/DTLS.  The solution should work well the =
Client communicates to the Resource Server using CoAP/DTLS.  It should =
also work well when the Resource Server is a constrained node, the =
Client is a constrained node, or both the Resource Server and Client are =
constrained nodes.

I do not think that we should assume that interface I or III will use =
CoAP/DTLS, just that the protocols used on those interfaces should be =
chosen or designed to be complementary with CoAP/DTLS.  One example =
might be RADIUS with a new EAP Method that uses DTLS (similar to the =
current TEAP method's use of TLS) and a profile that limits the required =
crypto algorithms to those that are already required for CoAP/DTLS.   =
Another example could be a constrained Kerberos profile that restricts =
the encryption algorithms available to the list that is required for =
CoAP/DTLS.  I don't know how to give the same sort of example for PKI or =
OAUTH solutions, but they probably exist.

I think that requiring CoAP/DTLS to be used on interface I or III overly =
constrains the situation and effectively requires us to create anew =
authorization and authentication protocol.  I think we should avoid =
doing that, if at all possible.

Please note that implementing CoAP/DTLS on the Client and Resource =
Server  DOES NOT PREVENT those nodes from ALSO implementing other =
protocols.  For instance an unconstrained Client, such as a building =
control unit, may implement CoAP/DTLS (plus whatever auth solution we =
choose/design) to talk to sensors and actuators AND provide a standard =
HTTP/TLS web server as a northbound interface for users to control the =
building from anywhere on the Internet.  In my thoughts, we would be =
expecting the Client and Server to _at least_ implement CoAP/DTLS.  They =
could also implement other protocols, depending on how resource =
constrained they are (or aren't).

Margaret


On Mar 5, 2014, at 9:32 AM, Hannes Tschofenig =
<hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
>=20
> I would like to thank you all for the great discussion today at the =
BOF.
> There was good feedback and the following scoping aspect showed up.
>=20
> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on CoAP/DTLS
> as part of a future working group.
>=20
> There was not enough time to go down to the details during the session
> due to lack of time. Hence, I will try to clarify this aspect on the
> mailing list.
>=20
> Let us have a look at the high level architecture:
>=20
>                                          +---------------+
>                                          | Authorization |
>             +--------------------------->|  Server       |
>             |        (I)                 +---------------+
>             |                                  ^
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  | III
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             |                                  |
>             v                                  v
>        +-----------+                     +-----+-----+
>        |           |      II             | Resource  |
>        |   Client  | <..................>| Server    |
>        +-----------+                     +-----------+
>=20
> I: This is the interaction where keying and authorization information =
is
> provided to the client.
>=20
> II: This is the resource access.
>=20
> III: This is a potential exchange necessary for having the resource
> server interacting with the authorization server for authenticating =
the
> client and for authorizing the client.
>=20
> (The exact details of the interaction depend on the specific solution,
> of course.)
>=20
> As you can see in the figure, there are various places where DTLS and
> CoAP should or shouldn't be used.
>=20
> A few persons said that they want to use other protocols besides CoAP
> and DTLS.
>=20
> Please explain me where you would like to other protocols being taken
> into consideration. What protocols are you considering in which of =
these
> interfaces?
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Hi all,

here are the meeting minutes:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-ace

Please have a look at them to see whether your comment has correctly
been captured and whether there are other bugs.

Ciao
Hannes

PS: Thanks to Bert for taking notes.


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From nobody Mon Mar 10 08:34:36 2014
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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I agree. Though while the AS might not actually be constrained, both the =
client and resource may well be.

That would mean the AS has to support CoAP/DTLS correct?

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com

On 2014-03-10, at 5:55 AM, G=F6ran Selander =
<goran.selander@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Phil
>=20
> On 07/03/14 14:51, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Agreed. However I can see cases where RS and authz are both =
constrained
>> because they are on same server. In this case i would suspect =
"policy" is
>> largely driven by basic func of the device.
>>=20
>> I mention this because as/rs on one server occurs frequently on web, =
not
>> sure constrained would never have this.
>=20
> I would like to see the AS as optional functionality, in cases where =
the
> RS does not have the authz info it requires to decide on grant or deny =
an
> access request. In use cases where it suffices with configured access
> policies in the RS (corresponding to what you call =93basic fund=94?) =
there is
> no need for an AS at all.
>=20
> With this in mind I would like to assume that the AS, when present, is =
not
> a constrained device. Does that make sense or are there still other
> options to consider?
>=20
> Thanks
> G=F6ran
>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 13:30, G=F6ran Selander =
<goran.selander@ericsson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Phil
>>>=20
>>>> On 07/03/14 11:26, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> While a 100% constrained case is foundational I think you need to
>>>> consider dual protocol and mixed protocol cases.
>>>>=20
>>>> Eg. A web server contacting a constrained resource. That server =
might
>>>> obtain a token from an http authz server for use against a =
constrained
>>>> resource. Or it might obtain one from a constrained authz server =
too.
>>>=20
>>> I agree with your statement to consider mixed protocol cases, but =
just
>>> want to point out that one reason for introducing the authz server =
is
>>> for
>>> offloading a constrained resource server with policy management and
>>> decision. So I would like to to assume that at least the authz =
server is
>>> less constrained.
>>>=20
>>> G=F6ran
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> All permutations seem likely to me. So much so, I think a =
constrained
>>>> only charter would be problematic.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:00, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On 05 Mar 2014, at 14:32, Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on
>>>>>>> CoAP/DTLS
>>>>>>> as part of a future working group.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Yes, and (for some reason I don=B9t understand) nobody said aloud =
why
>>>>>> that focus might be a problem (while, e.g., Sam very clearly said =
why
>>>>>> *not* having that focus might be a problem).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> It seems to me there is a false choice being presented here.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would =
actively
>>>>>> have to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Where is that conclusion assured in the ACE charter or otherwise
>>>>> documented?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind =
this
>>>>>> disagreement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its
>>>>>> focus.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> By "legacy" do you mean "not part of a walled garden"?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Ralph
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> *) Smart Energy Profile 2.0, based on a custom XML vocabulary, =
HTTP,
>>>>>> TLS, TCP.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Mon Mar 10 08:48:55 2014
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From: Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 08:48:43 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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On Mar 10, 2014, at 3:33 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> I agree. Though while the AS might not actually be constrained, both the =
client and resource may well be.

That is correct. And the client and resource might be deep in a challenging=
 6LoWPAN NAN network with 1000s of nodes sharing a 250 kbps channel (many S=
mart City related applications).  In those kinds of deployments communicati=
on with the AS really needs to be efficient.

> That would mean the AS has to support CoAP/DTLS correct?

Yes. Although there will be non-constrained devices and less challenging ne=
tworks where HTTP/TLS would be just fine.

Zach

>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On 2014-03-10, at 5:55 AM, G=F6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com>=
 wrote:
>
>> Hi Phil
>>
>> On 07/03/14 14:51, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed. However I can see cases where RS and authz are both constrained
>>> because they are on same server. In this case i would suspect "policy" =
is
>>> largely driven by basic func of the device.
>>>
>>> I mention this because as/rs on one server occurs frequently on web, no=
t
>>> sure constrained would never have this.
>>
>> I would like to see the AS as optional functionality, in cases where the
>> RS does not have the authz info it requires to decide on grant or deny a=
n
>> access request. In use cases where it suffices with configured access
>> policies in the RS (corresponding to what you call =93basic fund=94?) th=
ere is
>> no need for an AS at all.
>>
>> With this in mind I would like to assume that the AS, when present, is n=
ot
>> a constrained device. Does that make sense or are there still other
>> options to consider?
>>
>> Thanks
>> G=F6ran
>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 13:30, G=F6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.co=
m>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>
>>>>> On 07/03/14 11:26, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> While a 100% constrained case is foundational I think you need to
>>>>> consider dual protocol and mixed protocol cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eg. A web server contacting a constrained resource. That server might
>>>>> obtain a token from an http authz server for use against a constraine=
d
>>>>> resource. Or it might obtain one from a constrained authz server too.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with your statement to consider mixed protocol cases, but just
>>>> want to point out that one reason for introducing the authz server is
>>>> for
>>>> offloading a constrained resource server with policy management and
>>>> decision. So I would like to to assume that at least the authz server =
is
>>>> less constrained.
>>>>
>>>> G=F6ran
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All permutations seem likely to me. So much so, I think a constrained
>>>>> only charter would be problematic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:00, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 05 Mar 2014, at 14:32, Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>>>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a nutshell there was some disagreement to purely focus on
>>>>>>>> CoAP/DTLS
>>>>>>>> as part of a future working group.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, and (for some reason I don=B9t understand) nobody said aloud w=
hy
>>>>>>> that focus might be a problem (while, e.g., Sam very clearly said w=
hy
>>>>>>> *not* having that focus might be a problem).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems to me there is a false choice being presented here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we define a solution that is good for CoAP/DTLS, we would active=
ly
>>>>>>> have to go out of our way to make that useless for HTTP/TLS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where is that conclusion assured in the ACE charter or otherwise
>>>>>> documented?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the legacy SEP2.0*) support that seems to be the issue behind th=
is
>>>>>>> disagreement can easily be accommodated without the WG losing its
>>>>>>> focus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By "legacy" do you mean "not part of a walled garden"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *) Smart Energy Profile 2.0, based on a custom XML vocabulary, HTTP=
,
>>>>>>> TLS, TCP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>

Zach Shelby
Director of Technology
ARM Internet of Things BU
www.arm.com
mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
Skype: zdshelby
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From nobody Mon Mar 10 09:14:52 2014
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans@painless-security.com>
To: ace@ietf.org
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:14:07 -0400
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Subject: [Ace] Balancing How Tightly Coupled against Reasonable Options
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At the BOF I was a strong proponent of scoping the solution only to
COAP+DTLS.
I've thought more about that.  I still favor that.  However, I've
realized that I had a bunch of complex reasoning behind that.

In the broader Internet, interoperability tends to be more important
than optimization.  It's more important to have fewer solutions than to
have solutions exactly matched to the environment.  The solution needs
to bmeet the requirements, but extra options, complexity, code size, etc
is preferable to having multiple solutions that do not interoperate.

As several people pointed out, you need a trusted element to convert one
authentication scheme into another; same is true for authorization
schemes.

However, in the constrained environment, it's often more important that
a solution work within the constraints than it is to re-use technology.


I would strongly object to chartering work here that's going to
effectively be another generic authentication mechanism that doesn't
have inherent  properties that strongly bind it to the constrained
space.

So, I've thought about this in terms of the COAP+DTLS question and come
up with the following.


The point of doing this seems to be to minimize code size and complexity
and re-use DICE work across ACE.  So, you could design a system where
DTLS was the only crypto you needed, where cipher and hash selection was
optimized between your COAP security and your authentication.  You could
solve challenges with DTLS and re-use the work.

This sort of inherently binds the problem to COAP speakers including
constrained devices, software written explicitly for constrained devices
and for trusted security proxies that interface with the rest of the
world.

Examples of work I'd support with this scoping:

* For ABFAB:

** An EAP method that worked well with DICE/DTLS

** Removing unnecessary EAP round trips

** RADIUS over DTLS with DICE constraints if you want to put an
   authorization server on a constrained device.

** Compression/better encodings of authorization information.


Alternatively, we could look at things that proxies can do without being
trusted.  Ways of reversably transforming other authentication
technologies for use in constrained environments more broadly than
COAP+DTLS.

Examples include:

* For ABFAB:

** Reversable ways of removing EAP round trips: avoiding EAP
   request/identity; taking success indications from a method to avoid
   need for  eap failure and eap success messages

* For OAUTH:

** a losless compression of signed tokens that can represent anything,
   but hapeens to be very efficient if the token generator is
   constrained-device friendly

** more efficient encoding of the HTTP parts of OAUTH that do not impact
   signature validity


What I would not support is something that was OAUTH-like or ABFAB-like
or PKI-like but was neither tied to COAP+DTLS nor transformable by an
untrusted proxy without keys.  I think that work would strike an
inappropriate balance with technology re-use and interoperability across
the wider Internet.  If we need a more efficient OAUTH or EAP, do that
work in the OAUTH or EMU workings groups, not here.  Actually get the
right people in the room to balance that tradeoff well.

--Sam


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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--=-=-=


Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com> wrote:
    > I think that requiring CoAP/DTLS to be used on interface I or III
    > overly constrains the situation and effectively requires us to create
    > anew authorization and authentication protocol.  I think we should
    > avoid doing that, if at all possible.

How would you feel if CoAP/DTLS was a MAY for I/III, but that HTTP/TLS was
also a MAY?

(Perhaps both are MTI, but the I/III interaction MAY use either)

    > Please note that implementing CoAP/DTLS on the Client and Resource
    > Server  DOES NOT PREVENT those nodes from ALSO implementing other
    > protocols.  For instance an unconstrained Client, such as a building
    > control unit, may implement CoAP/DTLS (plus whatever auth solution we
    > choose/design) to talk to sensors and actuators AND provide a standard
    > HTTP/TLS web server as a northbound interface for users to control the
    > building from anywhere on the Internet.  In my thoughts, we would be
    > expecting the Client and Server to _at least_ implement CoAP/DTLS.
    > They could also implement other protocols, depending on how resource
    > constrained they are (or aren't).

Agreed...

Or to put it another way: It's okay if my coffee maker also makes toast.
As long as it makes coffee.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =-




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From nobody Tue Mar 11 00:46:11 2014
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Hi all,

thanks for the feedback on the charter scoping discussion.
I just read through the various remarks sent to the list.

Looking at the diagram again I believe I hear the following feedback.

                                          +---------------+
                                          | Authorization |
             +--------------------------->|  Server       |
             |        (I)                 +---------------+
             |                                  ^
             |                                  |
             |                                  |
             |                                  | III
             |                                  |
             |                                  |
             |                                  |
             v                                  v
        +-----------+                     +-----+-----+
        |           |      II             | Resource  |
        |   Client  | <..................>| Server    |
        +-----------+                     +-----------+

For II we would start our work on a solution that re-uses CoAP and DTLS
since the client and the resource server are likely going to be
constrained. We would, however, add text to the charter that the outcome
of that work has to also work for a not-so-much constrained environment
that uses HTTP/TLS on interface II.

Various people raised the question of proxies and, in further
discussions, it appears to me that those proxies are used for protocol
translation to interface existing deployment. Following the suggestion
Michael provided I think we should also put text in the charter that we
will look into the proxying case once we have an initial solution
approach selected to determine how the interworking would be
accomplished. It is a bit premature to answer that question at this
point in time. Michael even went one step further and suggested running
code and that indeed sounds like an interesting idea.

Concerning interfaces I and III I got a mixed reaction. I believe that
this is partially caused by the nature of different solutions you all
have in mind. For some solutions there is no interface III, for example.
In other cases there is no interface I. My suggestion is to avoid
mandating a specific approach in the charter right now and rather wait
for a solution preference to emerge in the group.

How does this sound? Is this a reasonable compromise?

In my subsequent mail I will make a proposal for the updated charter text=
=2E

Ciao
Hannes


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Hi all,

I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions on
the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.

The changes include:
 * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check a
candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
 * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of
the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
 * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
 * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and
protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki
for capturing those.

What do you think?

-----

Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained
Environment (ACE)

The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments where
network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a
protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
components
As in other environments, authentication and authorization question also
arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For example,
a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a "digital
key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital
key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access
be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?
These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for
use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
various security protocols.

The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and
authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include
Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread
deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar
goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and
utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by
the main deployment use cases they were designed for.

Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already
existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken
into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the
consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an
authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
intermittent connectivity, etc.

This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the working
group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource server
by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This access
will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer from
the same resource limitations.

Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the
specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in
existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated
authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment
of IoT devices offering increased security.

Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been made
the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the ability
to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.
Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the use
of protocol translation proxies.

To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party
offering application layer services is always the same party offering
network access services.

The working group has the following tasks (in this order):

1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.

2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
constrained environments.

3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
deployments.

-----

Ciao
Hannes



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From nobody Tue Mar 11 02:26:34 2014
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
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Thread-Topic: ACE Charter - connectivity assumptions
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Subject: [Ace] ACE Charter - connectivity assumptions
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During the BOF it was requested to be more specific about the connectivity
assumptions of the various nodes, more specifically whether it could be
assumed that the RS or the Client could connect to the AS. The discussion
was very focused on the particular use case presented at the BOF. Here are
some starting points for further discussion.

1. The discussion relates to Client or RS connectivity to the AS for
obtaining relevant authorization information. If valid authorization info
is already available to the RS, it should not be necessary to connect to
the AS.=20

2. It was acknowledged that in the particular use case (container
transport at sea) Internet connectivity could not be assumed. Even if this
hadn=B9t been the case, e.g. truck/train transport or other use case, we
should not take for granted that billions of devices are always connected
just because it is theoretically possible. Internet connectivity has a
cost and low cost is one of the reasons why constrained devices are at all
used. There may be some need for configuration needed to secure
connectivity, which may be missing if the environment changes as was
illustrated by the use case. Etc. . With this in mind, we should assume
that for certain use cases the constrained Client or RS may be
disconnected from the Internet for periods of time.

3. Even if the AS is not a constrained device it may be disconnected from
time to other. For some use cases, AS functionality may be implemented in
devices which are not always available, e.g. the Resource Owner=B9s
smartphone, home server or some other device which may be occasionally
switched off or disconnected.


In general we should assume that Client and RS may have intermittent
connectivity with the AS, and in particular that it cannot  be guaranteed
that there is connectivity to the AS at the time of the access request.


G=F6ran



From nobody Tue Mar 11 08:49:40 2014
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From: Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:49:19 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Hannes,

I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item here seems =
to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will probably result in=
 increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe just a misunderstanding? Do =
we really see the need for a proxy in the middle of I or III?

I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even through I i=
s based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run CoAP/DTLS. In other wor=
ds, some interfaces can be constrained while others are not. I think the ch=
arter already covers this fine.

So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translation proxi=
es. If we really see the need for this some day in the future, it could be =
tackled then.

Zach

On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>=
 wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions on
> the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>
> The changes include:
> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check a
> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of
> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and
> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki
> for capturing those.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -----
>
> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained
> Environment (ACE)
>
> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments where
> network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
> that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a
> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
> components
> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question also
> arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For example,
> a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a "digital
> key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital
> key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
> authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access
> be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?
> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for
> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
> various security protocols.
>
> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and
> authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include
> Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
> Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
> Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread
> deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar
> goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and
> utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by
> the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>
> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already
> existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken
> into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the
> consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an
> authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
> intermittent connectivity, etc.
>
> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the working
> group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource server
> by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This access
> will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer from
> the same resource limitations.
>
> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the
> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in
> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated
> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment
> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>
> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been made
> the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the ability
> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.
> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the use
> of protocol translation proxies.
>
> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party
> offering application layer services is always the same party offering
> network access services.
>
> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>
> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>
> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
> constrained environments.
>
> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
> deployments.
>
> -----
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

Zach Shelby
Director of Technology
ARM Internet of Things BU
www.arm.com
mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
Skype: zdshelby
LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/


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From nobody Tue Mar 11 11:55:41 2014
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Subject: [Ace] a possible solution candidate?
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Hi,

I just get to know this WG during IETF in London. Since I am also working in
secure authentication and authorization in a non-WG group (CC), but in
general and not only for constrained devices. In other words, the scope of
your mailinglist is a small part of that. The outcome of secauth will be an
API that allows the application layers' services or other layers' services
to use this API for authentication purposes. Based on the needs, one can
also integrate it with other approaches an duse it for securer
authentication and at the same time avoid IP spoofing. This is why the work
of this mailinglist grabbed my attention. Before IETF I was in a process of
preparing a requirement document for using a network layer approach for
authentication in other layers and still working on it (probably you can
read more about my purpose there). One of the solution space approach that I
thought might be useful for the start was one of my draft that is called
SSAS (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rafiee-6man-ssas ).
-----The new version of this draft will be coming soon (I know the current
version is messy.. :-| )------

I thought maybe you also find it useful as a candidate solution for your
authentication purposes. I try to explain how SSAS can be helpful

General advantages
-  Prevent IP spoofing (binding between the public key and the IP address)
- The authentication can be only based on IP address (or one can also
integrate it with other approaches)
- Since IP spoofing can prevents other attacks such as MITM, TCP/UDP
amplifications, 
- It uses a short key size algorithm so that it avoids the use of large
memories

Some of other advantages:
- It is enough that the two communication nodes only know the IP address of
each other, then they can ensure that there is no MITM.
- It does not need to check the keys up to certain level to ensure that this
key belongs to this node with this IP address (like what is needed for TLS
if one wants to ensure about the key authorization).
-  It doesn't need to buy a certificate for each single nodes in order to
provide the node with a secure TLS or SSL authentication
etc.



At the moment I integrated this approach for DNS confidentiality, data
integrity and secure authentication (please refer to these slides
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dnsop-2.pdf ). I also
saw a paper that integrated SSAS as a secure authentication purposes in SIP
protocol. This is because in SIP, an attacker can easily spoof the identity
of the two ends of communication nodes. Since SSAS prevents IP spoofing,
this prevents identity spoofing as well (if the identity is the IP address).

One disadvantage of this approach was that it only supports iPv6, I also
tried to cover it (Please check the approach in the slides for CGA-TSIG).
So, the support of IPv4 will appear in the next version of draft. 

If you have any question, do not hesitate to ask.

Thanks,
Best,
Hosnieh


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Subject: Re: [Ace] a possible solution candidate?
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Hi Hosnieh

my initial reaction is that those are two separate efforts since we are
focusing on application layer authentication and authorization.

If you take a quick look at the updated charter text you will see the
different focus:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00346.html

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/11/2014 07:55 PM, Hosnieh Rafiee wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> I just get to know this WG during IETF in London. Since I am also worki=
ng in
> secure authentication and authorization in a non-WG group (CC), but in
> general and not only for constrained devices. In other words, the scope=
 of
> your mailinglist is a small part of that. The outcome of secauth will b=
e an
> API that allows the application layers' services or other layers' servi=
ces
> to use this API for authentication purposes. Based on the needs, one ca=
n
> also integrate it with other approaches an duse it for securer
> authentication and at the same time avoid IP spoofing. This is why the =
work
> of this mailinglist grabbed my attention. Before IETF I was in a proces=
s of
> preparing a requirement document for using a network layer approach for=

> authentication in other layers and still working on it (probably you ca=
n
> read more about my purpose there). One of the solution space approach t=
hat I
> thought might be useful for the start was one of my draft that is calle=
d
> SSAS (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rafiee-6man-ssas ).
> -----The new version of this draft will be coming soon (I know the curr=
ent
> version is messy.. :-| )------
>=20
> I thought maybe you also find it useful as a candidate solution for you=
r
> authentication purposes. I try to explain how SSAS can be helpful
>=20
> General advantages
> -  Prevent IP spoofing (binding between the public key and the IP addre=
ss)
> - The authentication can be only based on IP address (or one can also
> integrate it with other approaches)
> - Since IP spoofing can prevents other attacks such as MITM, TCP/UDP
> amplifications,=20
> - It uses a short key size algorithm so that it avoids the use of large=

> memories
>=20
> Some of other advantages:
> - It is enough that the two communication nodes only know the IP addres=
s of
> each other, then they can ensure that there is no MITM.
> - It does not need to check the keys up to certain level to ensure that=
 this
> key belongs to this node with this IP address (like what is needed for =
TLS
> if one wants to ensure about the key authorization).
> -  It doesn't need to buy a certificate for each single nodes in order =
to
> provide the node with a secure TLS or SSL authentication
> etc.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> At the moment I integrated this approach for DNS confidentiality, data
> integrity and secure authentication (please refer to these slides
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dnsop-2.pdf ). I al=
so
> saw a paper that integrated SSAS as a secure authentication purposes in=
 SIP
> protocol. This is because in SIP, an attacker can easily spoof the iden=
tity
> of the two ends of communication nodes. Since SSAS prevents IP spoofing=
,
> this prevents identity spoofing as well (if the identity is the IP addr=
ess).
>=20
> One disadvantage of this approach was that it only supports iPv6, I als=
o
> tried to cover it (Please check the approach in the slides for CGA-TSIG=
).
> So, the support of IPv4 will appear in the next version of draft.=20
>=20
> If you have any question, do not hesitate to ask.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Best,
> Hosnieh
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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From nobody Tue Mar 11 12:22:39 2014
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Hi Hannes,

Thanks for your quick response. I know it is application layer
authentication.  The purpose of secauth isn't also to merge the application
layer protocols with network layer protocols but only use the parameters
used to secure network layer in other layers. However, as I explained
earlier, secauth is not only for CoAP devices. In other words, if an
application wants to use this approach, it only carries the parameters used
in network layer for security purposes in the TCP or UDP messages for
authentication purposes. This is the same way as I've integrated it with
DNS. DNS is also application layer service. It only uses a cached data
available to the service that supports authentication. 
This is why I thought it might be useful here too. In any case, I am also
working in secauth on authentication and authorization purposes for
application layer and other layer and make this or any similar approach as a
API available for this purpose.


Best,
Hosnieh



> 
> Hi Hosnieh
> 
> my initial reaction is that those are two separate efforts since we are
focusing
> on application layer authentication and authorization.
> 
> If you take a quick look at the updated charter text you will see the
different
> focus:
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00346.html
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes


From nobody Tue Mar 11 12:32:00 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-schmitt-two-way-authentication-for-iot-02
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Hi Corinna,

thanks for the response.

My suggestion would be to produce a write-up that is of generic use
(independent from your specific implementation and your EU funded project=
).

However, given the charter discussions and the BOF I have my doubts
whether the work would meet many of the requirements outlined in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00.

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/02/2014 04:29 PM, Dr. Corinna Schmitt wrote:
> Dear Hannes,
>> Hi Corinna, Hi Burkhard,
>>
>> thanks for your document. I have read through it and I ran into a few
>> questions. Your response would help me to better understand the propos=
ed
>> idea.
> Thanks for reading the draft and make comments to it to improve it. Som=
e
> comments can be answered right away.
>> 1) Why do you assume IEEE 802.15.4? Currently it seems that the 15.4
>> radio will mostly be used in specialized industry segments only. Is
>> there anything in the document that would make the idea less suitable
>> for other radio technologies, for example BTLE?
> Potentially the proposed solution can work on every stack you like. So
> you can do an implementation independently of IEEE 802.15.4.
> We put IEEE 802.15.4 there, because our used stack (BLIP) uses it.
>> 2) The assumed network stack does not show 6lowpan. Was this intention=
al?
> Same as above. You can use the stack you want. So also 6lowpan can be
> used. It depends n you what you require and what you want to support.
>> 3) You show RPL in the stack and I was wondering whether you assume it=

>> being mandatory to implement for your assumed architecture? It does no=
t
>> seem to show up elsewhere in the document. It appears to be irrelevant=

>> for your design.
> RPL was just mentioned due to our other publications. Currently our pla=
n
> is to change to RPL (CoAP) in the future.
>> 4) Subscriber identity: You write --
>> "
>>    The identity of a default subscriber is usually preconfigured on a
>>    publisher before it is deployed.
>> "
>>
>> Could you explain more what you assume is pre-configured and where it =
is
>> preconfigured?
> Here pre-configures means that our devices are equipped with the
> certification during compiling and programming them before deployment.
> This is due to the application scenario we support at the moment. Befor=
e
> deploying the device you have to run to steps: First creation of
> certificate, and second compiling code and play it on the device.
>> I would also suggest to avoid the term subscriber since it has two oth=
er
>> meanings that might confuse:
>>  a) The term subscriber is often used in context of telecommunication =
as
>> the user who has a contract with a telecommunication operator.
>>  b) The second use is in context of protocols that use asynchronous
>> communication (like XMPP).
>>
>> I believe your notion of subscriber does not relate to those two
>> existing uses. I guess you are more using the term subscriber to refer=

>> to a device that wants some data from a sensor. Is this correct?
> Thanks for the hint. Yes you are right. The subscriber should be a
> device that wants data from the sensor.
> Usually this is one outside of the WSN. Do you have a suggestion for ne=
w
> name?
>> 5) Roles in your architecture.
>>
>> It seems that you assume that the IoT devices are publishers and that
>> there are subscribers who talk to these publishers. In some other case=
s
>> I have seen architectures where the IoT devices (sensors) upload the
>> data to some servers without having to act as servers themselves. In
>> your architecture it feels like the sensor nodes implement the
>> server-side functionality
> That was not our intention.
> Our network has push characteristics up to the server. Data publishing
> runs over server, because it has more resources and, therefore, can
> handle requests better. It is the gate to the world.
> Pull is only performed if you require data (measurements) at a time tha=
t
> is not pre-defined.
>> In Section 4.2.2 you write that you recommend an OpenSSL implementatio=
n
>> on the server side but the server-side would be the IoT device. While =
it
>> would be inappropriate to recommend a specific implementation in an IE=
TF
>> draft/RFC it also raises the questions about the expectations on the
>> server-side.
> Thanks for the hint.
> We use OpenSSL on the server but not within the WSN. OpenSSL is used
> especially for managing rights, requests, and certificates.
>> 6. Certificate content
>>
>> In Section 4.2.2 you describe the content of a certificate and you
>> indicate that the commonName is set to "localhost". It seems to be
>> useless to include this in the certificate since a CA would not be abl=
e
>> to verify this identity information nor would any party verifying it b=
e
>> able to use it in a meaningful way.
> Localhost in our case is a special IP address (here: sink). You are
> right, we should rename it and make clear that it is an IP address. So
> you can set is like you want.
>> It also seems to be in violation of what you write in Section 5.2 wher=
e
>> you state that "every publisher in the network MUST have an unique
>> identity.".
>>
>> You also indicated more complete information for inclusion in the
>> certificate but it is not clear to me what purpose it serves. Could yo=
u
>> explain?
> Will do it asap.
>> 7. Privacy
>>
>> In Section 5 you indicate some privacy related aspects and you hint to=
 "
>> access regulations based on legal and regulative implications". Could
>> you briefly explain what those requirements are?
> This part we put in due to the deployment and project relations we are
> running at the moment.
> Here it means that not every device can be able to access the data, for=

> example, due to legal issues in the region (EU, CH, US rights).
> This has to be stored central in the network and it has to be checked
> before giving access and creating the corresponding access ticket.
> Here we refer to the following publications:
>=20
> Radhika Garg, Corinna Schmitt, Burkhard Stiller: /Investigating
> Regulative Implications for User-generated Content and a Design
> Proposal/; Degruyter, PIK-Praxis der Informationsverarbeitung und
> Kommunikation, Vol. 36, No. 4, December 2013, ISSN 0930-5157, pp 1=9611=
=2E
> doi:10.1515/pik-2013-0042 <http://dx.doi.org/10.1515/pik-2013-0042> URL=
:
> http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/piko.ahead-of-print/pik-2013-0042/pik-2=
013-0042.xml
>=20
> Radhika Garg, Christos Tsiaras, Burkhard Stiller, Corinna Schmitt,
> Daniel D=F6nni: /Deliverable D7.1 - Basics, Requirements, Scenarios, an=
d
> Architecture: In FLAMINGO/; Radhika Garg (Edt.), Z=FCrich, Switzerland,=

> October 2013
>> 8. Use Cases.
>>
>> I suggest to omit the use cases from the document since the descriptio=
n
>> is too brief to be useful. A small remark: From my work in the emergen=
cy
>> services environment I had gotten the impression that there are no pla=
ns
>> to take sensor input directly when initiating alerts. In fact, sensor
>> alerts do rarely even get directly to the emergency services authoriti=
es
>> but are rather pre-processed by an intermediate organization (by
>> humans). Maybe you have spoken with other people, who have different
>> plans. Where did you got your information from?
> This section is based on discussion with our project partners within
> SmartenIT (www.smartenit.eu) and Flamingo ( http://www.fp7-flamingo.eu)=
=2E
> <http://www.fp7-flamingo.eu>
>=20
>> 9. Architecture
>>
>> Figure 3 shows the architecture but it is a bit confusing since it is
>> not clear what the boxes and the lines mean. The publisher is a box
>> separate from the sensors and from the earlier description I thought
>> that the sensors are actually the publishers. Furthermore, the gateway=

>> was not discussed as a role up to that point in the document. The
>> gateway shows up in Section 5.3 and its role confuses me. You write:
>>
>> "  A sensor node has published its data, which is transmitted in
>>    direction to the global sink (cf. Figure 3 where global sink is
>>    located in the gateway component).
>> "
>>
>> Does the sensor publish the data at the gateway? From the earlier
>> sections I thought that the subscriber talks to the publisher instead.=

>> Is the gateway the subscriber? Why doesn't the sensor uploads the data=

>> to some server instead (which is frequently done in today's IoT
>> deployments).
> Lots of comments.
> I will address and clarify them asap.
> Furthermore, I will add a legend to the Figure and perhaps modify it
> based on you aforementioned comments.
>> Why do you call the entire document "two-way authentication" when the
>> the two way authentication is just one small part of the overall
>> authentication procedure. In fact the two-way authentication is used
>> between the subscriber and the access control server (as shown in Figu=
re
>> 4), and between the publisher and the gateway. Furthermore, there has =
to
>> be some authentication between the subscriber and the publisher as wel=
l
>> (at least I hope so).
>>
>> What is the purpose of the access ticket? It shows up in Section 5.3 a=
nd
>> I wonder why there is a need for an access ticket when the two parties=

>> (subscriber and publisher) already have a certificate. Why cannot you
>> use the certificate for authentication with the publisher right away?
>>
>> Where do you see the access control server being deployed? Is this an
>> entity in the local network or something you would have on the Interne=
t?
>>
>> Why does the publisher have to authenticate to the gateway? From Figur=
e
>> 4 it is not clear whether the gateway is just an optional component or=

>> an integral part of the architecture.
>>
>> The document does not explain what the access token is and how it is
>> exchanged between the subscriber and the publisher.
>>
>> Btw, the term CA standards for Certification Authority rather than
>> Certificate Authority.
>=20
> Will be addressed soon.
>> 10. Hardware requirements.
>>
>> Hardware requirements typically are not appropriate for IETF documents=
=2E
>> While you make the argument that an RSA-based public key cryptosystem =
is
>> good enough from a performance point of view the currently mandatory
>> ciphersuites used in CoAP are based on ECC (for those that rely on
>> asymmetric crypto). While having hardware support for key storage is a=

>> great idea I was wondering how much your architecture actually relies =
on
>> it. My impression that it would work fine just without a TPM chip. But=

>> you might have more hardware experience than I have. Could you point m=
e
>> to some hardware that you have in mind using?
>>
> We put this section for completeness and to show that an implementation=

> exists.
> Concerning sensor nodes and TPM we are using OPAL from CSIRO. Trusting
> Computing becomes relevant nowadays when thinking about securing data.
> Drawback is that if the TPM chip is broken or you change something
> during booting everything is lost. Advantage is that the storage root
> key is stored safely and only derivates are used for your applications.=

>=20
> Hope to answer most important questions or comments now. Others will be=

> addressed soon.
> You can also talk to me during IETF in London.
>=20
> Regards,
> Corinna
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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From nobody Tue Mar 11 12:39:30 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] a possible solution candidate?
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Hi Hosnieh,

the challenge I see is to support the requirements and use cases
outlined in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00
I have a hard time to see how that would work.

There are a number of other, already deployed IETF security protocols*
we looked at and even there we identified various gaps.

Ciao
Hannes

*: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00

On 03/11/2014 08:22 PM, Hosnieh Rafiee wrote:
> Hi Hannes,
>=20
> Thanks for your quick response. I know it is application layer
> authentication.  The purpose of secauth isn't also to merge the applica=
tion
> layer protocols with network layer protocols but only use the parameter=
s
> used to secure network layer in other layers. However, as I explained
> earlier, secauth is not only for CoAP devices. In other words, if an
> application wants to use this approach, it only carries the parameters =
used
> in network layer for security purposes in the TCP or UDP messages for
> authentication purposes. This is the same way as I've integrated it wit=
h
> DNS. DNS is also application layer service. It only uses a cached data
> available to the service that supports authentication.=20
> This is why I thought it might be useful here too. In any case, I am al=
so
> working in secauth on authentication and authorization purposes for
> application layer and other layer and make this or any similar approach=
 as a
> API available for this purpose.
>=20
>=20
> Best,
> Hosnieh
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>
>> Hi Hosnieh
>>
>> my initial reaction is that those are two separate efforts since we ar=
e
> focusing
>> on application layer authentication and authorization.
>>
>> If you take a quick look at the updated charter text you will see the
> different
>> focus:
>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00346.html
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>=20


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From nobody Tue Mar 11 13:05:59 2014
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My view is generally that interface II will typically be CoAP/DTLS but=20
could easily be HTTP/TLS and from the point of view of provisioning=20
credentials and access right information, I can't see there would be a=20
huge difference.

I am ambivalent regarding I and III from a=20
transfer/transaction/transport protocol point of view but I echo G=F6ran'=
s=20
view on considering object security to achieve end-to-end security=20
through proxies, plus it would of course still work if directly=20
connected. An alternative approach which could be considered for proxies =

is the ability to tunnel through proxies. This might be useful for=20
reusing existing auth/z protocols through proxies.

Robert

On 10/03/2014 9:00 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
> Hi Michael
>
> Just on untrusted intermediaries:
>
> Since the AS needs to protect certain information end-to-end =8B  e.g.
> authorisation information to be consumed by the RS, key management
> information to be consumed by the Client =8B hop-by-hop transport layer=

> security would not be sufficient. This case could be handled with objec=
t
> secure information (some sort of ticket/access token) integrity protect=
ed
> or encrypted on application layer. As the secure object can't be change=
d
> by an intermediary, it need to be formatted for transfer to the intende=
d
> consumer already by the AS, which in particular may need to take into
> account a constrained environment.
>
>
> G=F6ran
>
>
>
> On 08/03/14 16:38, "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>
>> This is what I understand about the concern about scope.
>> (Gotta love emacs picture-mode... outlook users will need a fixed font=
)
>>
>>
>>                                           +---------------+
>>                                           | Authorization |
>>              +------------------+-------->|  Server       |
>>              |        (I)      /          +---------------+
>>              |       authz    /                 ^
>>              |               /                  |
>>           /--------\        /                   |
>>     (IV)  | oauth  |       /                    | III
>>           |  proxy |      /                     | authz
>>           \--------/     /                      |
>>              |----------/                       |
>>              v                                  v
>>         +-----------+         (access)    +-----+-----+
>>         |           |     /------\  (II)  | Resource  |
>>         |   Client  | <...|https/|.......>| Server    |
>>         +-----------+     | coap |        +-----------+
>>                           | dtls |
>>                           |proxy | (V)
>>                           \------/
>>
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
>> IV - is some kind of translator that can take/process OAUTH2 (or some
>>      other system!) requests into our authorization protocol.  It migh=
t
>>      be that teaching the authorization server itself to speak OAUTH2
>>      is really the only answer, and that would be fine with me.
>>
>> V - this is an HTTPS(with OAUTH2 token) to COAP/DTLS (with ACE token)
>> proxy.
>>
>> It would be nice if (V) did not have to have god/superuser access to t=
he
>> authorization server. I.e. it would be nice if that proxy could be
>> untrusted
>> by both the client and the authorization server.
>>
>> Does this diagram match what others have been asking about?
>> (I have intentionally left out the SEP2.0 stuff out of this diagram, a=
s I
>> have no idea what it uses for authorization)
>>
>> --=20
>> Michael Richardson
>> -on the road-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>



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From nobody Tue Mar 11 14:37:01 2014
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From: "Rahman, Akbar" <Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com>
To: "Zach Shelby" <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
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Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Hi Zach,


Don't we need to consider Proxies even for the CoAP/DTLS case?  As you
know, the base CoAP spec has extensive support for Proxies (both forward
and reverse).  So I for one think that we should support Proxy even for
the CoAP/DTLS scenario.


Best Regards,



Akbar

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Zach Shelby
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 11:49 AM
To: Hannes Tschofenig
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5

Hannes,

I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item here
seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will probably
result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe just a
misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the middle of
I or III?

I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even through
I is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run CoAP/DTLS. In
other words, some interfaces can be constrained while others are not. I
think the charter already covers this fine.

So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translation
proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future, it
could be tackled then.

Zach

On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
<hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions=20
> on the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>
> The changes include:
> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check a

> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of=20
> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and=20
> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki=20
> for capturing those.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -----
>
> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained=20
> Environment (ACE)
>
> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments=20
> where network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was=20
> observed that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained=20
> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In=20
> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific=20
> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a

> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
> components
> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question=20
> also arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For=20
> example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using=20
> a "digital key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How=20
> does the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact

> with an authorization server to obtain authorization information? How=20
> can access be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be
revoked?
> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for=20
> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained=20
> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of=20
> various security protocols.
>
> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication=20
> and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples=20
> include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the=20
> Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure,=20
> and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy=20
> widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve=20
> a similar goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different=20
> functions and utilize different message exchanges. These differences=20
> are motivated by the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>
> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of=20
> already existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained=20
> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for=20
> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be=20
> taken into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for=20
> obtaining the consent of the user and the inability of embedded=20
> devices to contact an authorization server in real-time with every=20
> access request due to intermittent connectivity, etc.
>
> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for=20
> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to=20
> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the=20
> working group will assume that access to resources offered by a=20
> resource server by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is
protected by DTLS.
> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This=20
> access will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not=20
> suffer from the same resource limitations.
>
> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and=20
> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This=20
> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,=20
> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the

> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in

> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be=20
> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group=20
> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and=20
> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated

> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment

> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>
> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been=20
> made the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also

> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the ability

> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.
> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with=20
> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the=20
> use of protocol translation proxies.
>
> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,=20
> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained=20
> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the=20
> party offering application layer services is always the same party=20
> offering network access services.
>
> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>
> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,=20
> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the=20
> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>
> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for=20
> constrained environments.
>
> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and=20
> proxy deployments.
>
> -----
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

Zach Shelby
Director of Technology
ARM Internet of Things BU
www.arm.com
mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
Skype: zdshelby
LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/


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Subject: Re: [Ace] a possible solution candidate?
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Hi again,

> the challenge I see is to support the requirements and use cases outlined
in
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00
> I have a hard time to see how that would work.

As far as I understand, you are going to use TLS as a part of security
approach. To eliminate the need for having certificates for keys, one
*possible* solution is the approach I explained. 


Thanks,
Best,
Hosnieh


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From: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Hi Hannes,

Is there an architecture for the proposed work?

I think that it could help to come up with a simple architecture.

Regards,

Behcet


On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 2:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <
hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions on
> the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>
> The changes include:
>  * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check a
> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>  * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of
> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>  * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>  * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and
> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki
> for capturing those.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -----
>
> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained
> Environment (ACE)
>
> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments where
> network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
> that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a
> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
> components
> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question also
> arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For example,
> a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a "digital
> key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital
> key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
> authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access
> be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?
> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for
> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
> various security protocols.
>
> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and
> authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include
> Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
> Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
> Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread
> deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar
> goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and
> utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by
> the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>
> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already
> existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken
> into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the
> consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an
> authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
> intermittent connectivity, etc.
>
> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the working
> group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource server
> by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This access
> will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer from
> the same resource limitations.
>
> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the
> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in
> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated
> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment
> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>
> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been made
> the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the ability
> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.
> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the use
> of protocol translation proxies.
>
> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party
> offering application layer services is always the same party offering
> network access services.
>
> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>
> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>
> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
> constrained environments.
>
> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
> deployments.
>
> -----
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Hannes,<br><br></div>Is there an ar=
chitecture for the proposed work? <br><br></div>I think that it could help =
to come up with a simple architecture.<br><br></div>Regards,<br><br></div>
Behcet<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 2:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" target=3D"_blank">hannes.tsch=
ofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions on<br=
>
the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.<br>
<br>
The changes include:<br>
=A0* Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check a<b=
r>
candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.<br>
=A0* Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of<br>
the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.<br>
=A0* Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.<br>
=A0* Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and<br=
>
protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki<br>
for capturing those.<br>
<br>
What do you think?<br>
<br>
-----<br>
<br>
Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained<br>
Environment (ACE)<br>
<br>
The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments where<br>
network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed<br>
that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained<br>
environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In<br>
other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific<br>
requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a<br>
protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).<br>
components<br>
As in other environments, authentication and authorization question also<br=
>
arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For example,<br>
a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a &quot;digita=
l<br>
key&quot;. Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digit=
al<br>
key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an<br>
authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access<br=
>
be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?<br>
These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for<br>
use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained<br>
environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of<br>
various security protocols.<br>
<br>
The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and<br=
>
authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include<br>
Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,<br>
Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web<br>
Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread<br>
deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar<br>
goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and<br>
utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by<br>
the main deployment use cases they were designed for.<br>
<br>
Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already<br>
existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained<br>
environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for<br>
constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken<br>
into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the<br=
>
consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an<br>
authorization server in real-time with every access request due to<br>
intermittent connectivity, etc.<br>
<br>
This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for<br>
authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to<br>
resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the working<br>
group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource server<br>
by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.<br>
Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This access<br>
will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer from<br>
the same resource limitations.<br>
<br>
Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and<br>
re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This<br>
requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,<br>
selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the<br>
specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in<br>
existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be<br>
standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group<br>
benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and<br>
deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated<br>
authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment<br>
of IoT devices offering increased security.<br>
<br>
Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been made<br>
the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also<br>
applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the ability<br>
to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.<br>
Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with<br>
existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the use<br>
of protocol translation proxies.<br>
<br>
To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,<br>
privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained<br>
environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party<br=
>
offering application layer services is always the same party offering<br>
network access services.<br>
<br>
The working group has the following tasks (in this order):<br>
<br>
1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,<br>
requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the<br>
identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.<br>
<br>
2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for<br>
constrained environments.<br>
<br>
3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy<br>
deployments.<br>
<br>
-----<br>
<br>
Ciao<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">Hannes<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Goeran, Robert,

Here is the challenge (based on my experience from OAuth):

1) You need to tie the application layer security to the channel
security since otherwise you introduce attacks.

2) You need to tie the application layer security to the actual request.
Doing protocol translation in-between makes this somewhat challenging.

My fear is that while it sounds like a nice idea to do this protocol
translation it makes the entire security story brittle and more complex.

I am fine with investigating these proxy cases but we shouldn't be
astonished if they do not work in the way we had hoped.

Ciao
Hannes

PS: The term 'trusted' and 'untrusted' intermediary is somewhat fuzzy.
As I stated earlier this year on this mailing list, you have to indicate
WHO trust WHOM for WHAT.

On 03/11/2014 09:06 PM, Robert Cragie wrote:
> My view is generally that interface II will typically be CoAP/DTLS but
> could easily be HTTP/TLS and from the point of view of provisioning
> credentials and access right information, I can't see there would be a
> huge difference.
>=20
> I am ambivalent regarding I and III from a
> transfer/transaction/transport protocol point of view but I echo G=F6ra=
n's
> view on considering object security to achieve end-to-end security
> through proxies, plus it would of course still work if directly
> connected. An alternative approach which could be considered for proxie=
s
> is the ability to tunnel through proxies. This might be useful for
> reusing existing auth/z protocols through proxies.
>=20
> Robert
>=20
> On 10/03/2014 9:00 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>> Hi Michael
>>
>> Just on untrusted intermediaries:
>>
>> Since the AS needs to protect certain information end-to-end =8B  e.g.=

>> authorisation information to be consumed by the RS, key management
>> information to be consumed by the Client =8B hop-by-hop transport laye=
r
>> security would not be sufficient. This case could be handled with obje=
ct
>> secure information (some sort of ticket/access token) integrity protec=
ted
>> or encrypted on application layer. As the secure object can't be chang=
ed
>> by an intermediary, it need to be formatted for transfer to the intend=
ed
>> consumer already by the AS, which in particular may need to take into
>> account a constrained environment.
>>
>>
>> G=F6ran
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08/03/14 16:38, "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:=

>>
>>> This is what I understand about the concern about scope.
>>> (Gotta love emacs picture-mode... outlook users will need a fixed fon=
t)
>>>
>>>
>>>                                           +---------------+
>>>                                           | Authorization |
>>>              +------------------+-------->|  Server       |
>>>              |        (I)      /          +---------------+
>>>              |       authz    /                 ^
>>>              |               /                  |
>>>           /--------\        /                   |
>>>     (IV)  | oauth  |       /                    | III
>>>           |  proxy |      /                     | authz
>>>           \--------/     /                      |
>>>              |----------/                       |
>>>              v                                  v
>>>         +-----------+         (access)    +-----+-----+
>>>         |           |     /------\  (II)  | Resource  |
>>>         |   Client  | <...|https/|.......>| Server    |
>>>         +-----------+     | coap |        +-----------+
>>>                           | dtls |
>>>                           |proxy | (V)
>>>                           \------/
>>>
>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>
>>> IV - is some kind of translator that can take/process OAUTH2 (or some=

>>>      other system!) requests into our authorization protocol.  It mig=
ht
>>>      be that teaching the authorization server itself to speak OAUTH2=

>>>      is really the only answer, and that would be fine with me.
>>>
>>> V - this is an HTTPS(with OAUTH2 token) to COAP/DTLS (with ACE token)=

>>> proxy.
>>>
>>> It would be nice if (V) did not have to have god/superuser access to =
the
>>> authorization server. I.e. it would be nice if that proxy could be
>>> untrusted
>>> by both the client and the authorization server.
>>>
>>> Does this diagram match what others have been asking about?
>>> (I have intentionally left out the SEP2.0 stuff out of this diagram,
>>> as I
>>> have no idea what it uses for authorization)
>>>
>>> --=20
>>> Michael Richardson
>>> -on the road-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Yes. The architecture is part of the solution description.

The question you are asking is whether it should be in a separate
document or combined with the actual solution.

My experience from other working groups is that there will be all sorts
of arguments for having various different profiles for use case X and
use case Y. In that case it makes sense to come up with a separate
architecture document that gives the reader the overview.

Luckily, we are not yet at that point. So, let's worry about the
document management later.

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/11/2014 10:58 PM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> Hi Hannes,
>=20
> Is there an architecture for the proposed work?
>=20
> I think that it could help to come up with a simple architecture.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Behcet
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 2:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>> wrote:
>=20
>     Hi all,
>=20
>     I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussio=
ns on
>     the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>=20
>     The changes include:
>      * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will che=
ck a
>     candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>      * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability =
of
>     the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>      * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>      * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, =
and
>     protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wi=
ki
>     for capturing those.
>=20
>     What do you think?
>=20
>     -----
>=20
>     Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrain=
ed
>     Environment (ACE)
>=20
>     The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments w=
here
>     network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observe=
d
>     that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
>     environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In=

>     other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specifi=
c
>     requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of suc=
h a
>     protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>     components
>     As in other environments, authentication and authorization question=
 also
>     arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For exam=
ple,
>     a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a "dig=
ital
>     key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the di=
gital
>     key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
>     authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can a=
ccess
>     be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?=

>     These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols f=
or
>     use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
>     environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of=

>     various security protocols.
>=20
>     The IETF has a long history in developing three party authenticatio=
n and
>     authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples incl=
ude
>     Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
>     Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
>     Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widesprea=
d
>     deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a simila=
r
>     goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions an=
d
>     utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivate=
d by
>     the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>=20
>     Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of alr=
eady
>     existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
>     environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
>     constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be t=
aken
>     into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtainin=
g the
>     consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contac=
t an
>     authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
>     intermittent connectivity, etc.
>=20
>     This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
>     authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
>     resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the wor=
king
>     group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource se=
rver
>     by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS=
=2E
>     Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This ac=
cess
>     will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer =
from
>     the same resource limitations.
>=20
>     Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
>     re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This=

>     requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
>     selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of =
the
>     specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available=
 in
>     existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
>     standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
>     benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
>     deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federa=
ted
>     authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deploym=
ent
>     of IoT devices offering increased security.
>=20
>     Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been =
made
>     the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
>     applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the abil=
ity
>     to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigate=
d.
>     Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
>     existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the=
 use
>     of protocol translation proxies.
>=20
>     To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,=

>     privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
>     environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the =
party
>     offering application layer services is always the same party offeri=
ng
>     network access services.
>=20
>     The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>=20
>     1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,=

>     requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide th=
e
>     identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>=20
>     2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>     constrained environments.
>=20
>     3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and p=
roxy
>     deployments.
>=20
>     -----
>=20
>     Ciao
>     Hannes
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     _______________________________________________
>     Ace mailing list
>     Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
>=20


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From nobody Tue Mar 11 23:46:53 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Interesting question and I let Zach and other CoAP experts respond to it.=


In the BOF, however, we have only spoken about protocol translation
proxies in the context of allowing protocols other than CoAP to be
supported.

So, you are bringing up another topic in the charter discussion, which
is almost a question to the CORE working group about their ideas for
using DTLS with proxies in general.

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/11/2014 10:37 PM, Rahman, Akbar wrote:
> Hi Zach,
>=20
>=20
> Don't we need to consider Proxies even for the CoAP/DTLS case?  As you
> know, the base CoAP spec has extensive support for Proxies (both forwar=
d
> and reverse).  So I for one think that we should support Proxy even for=

> the CoAP/DTLS scenario.
>=20
>=20
> Best Regards,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Akbar
>=20
> =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Zach Shelby
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 11:49 AM
> To: Hannes Tschofenig
> Cc: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
>=20
> Hannes,
>=20
> I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item here
> seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will probably=

> result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe just a
> misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the middle o=
f
> I or III?
>=20
> I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even through=

> I is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run CoAP/DTLS. In
> other words, some interfaces can be constrained while others are not. I=

> think the charter already covers this fine.
>=20
> So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translation
> proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future, it
> could be tackled then.
>=20
> Zach
>=20
> On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions =

>> on the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>>
>> The changes include:
>> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check a=

>=20
>> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of=20
>> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and =

>> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki =

>> for capturing those.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> -----
>>
>> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained =

>> Environment (ACE)
>>
>> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments=20
>> where network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was=20
>> observed that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained=20
>> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In=20
>> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific=20
>> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a=

>=20
>> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>> components
>> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question=20
>> also arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For=20
>> example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using =

>> a "digital key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How=20
>> does the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact=

>=20
>> with an authorization server to obtain authorization information? How =

>> can access be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be
> revoked?
>> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for =

>> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained=20
>> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of=20
>> various security protocols.
>>
>> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication=20
>> and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples=20
>> include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the=20
>> Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure,=20
>> and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy =

>> widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve =

>> a similar goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different=20
>> functions and utilize different message exchanges. These differences=20
>> are motivated by the main deployment use cases they were designed for.=

>>
>> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of=20
>> already existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained=20
>> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for=20
>> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be=20
>> taken into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for=20
>> obtaining the consent of the user and the inability of embedded=20
>> devices to contact an authorization server in real-time with every=20
>> access request due to intermittent connectivity, etc.
>>
>> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for=20
>> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to=20
>> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the=20
>> working group will assume that access to resources offered by a=20
>> resource server by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is
> protected by DTLS.
>> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This=20
>> access will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not=20
>> suffer from the same resource limitations.
>>
>> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and=20
>> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This=20
>> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,=20
>> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the=

>=20
>> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in=

>=20
>> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be=20
>> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group=20
>> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and=20
>> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated=

>=20
>> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment=

>=20
>> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>>
>> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been=20
>> made the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also=

>=20
>> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the ability=

>=20
>> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.
>> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with=20
>> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the=20
>> use of protocol translation proxies.
>>
>> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,=20
>> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained=20
>> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the=20
>> party offering application layer services is always the same party=20
>> offering network access services.
>>
>> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>
>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,=20
>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the=20
>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>
>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for=20
>> constrained environments.
>>
>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and=20
>> proxy deployments.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> Zach Shelby
> Director of Technology
> ARM Internet of Things BU
> www.arm.com
> mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
> Skype: zdshelby
> LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
>=20
>=20
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are=

> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the=

> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy
> the information in any medium.  Thank you.
>=20
> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590 ARM Holdings plc,
> Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered in
> England & Wales, Company No:  2548782
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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Hosnieh,

the desire to re-use DTLS comes from CoAP since the CORE working group
(who developed CoAP) decided to pick DTLS as the security mechanism.
For constrained devices there is a benefit of re-using code.

So far the group has not decided whether the solution will be based on
symmetric keys or asymmetric keys. This is a topic for investigation
once we get past the charter discussion.

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/11/2014 10:53 PM, Hosnieh Rafiee wrote:
> Hi again,
>=20
>> the challenge I see is to support the requirements and use cases outli=
ned
> in
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-usecases-00
>> I have a hard time to see how that would work.
>=20
> As far as I understand, you are going to use TLS as a part of security
> approach. To eliminate the need for having certificates for keys, one
> *possible* solution is the approach I explained.=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Best,
> Hosnieh
>=20


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Hannes, Zach and all,

I must say I don=B9t find the task list of the current charter very helpful=
:

=B3The working group has the following tasks (in this order):

1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.

2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
constrained environments.

3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
deployments.=B2

This list does not give much more details about the work to be conducted
than is already given by the title of the WG. To a person not having
followed the discussion, the impression is that the work starts from
scratch and there is no clear understanding of what to do.

If we can=B9t formulate the problem statement and first step towards a
solution in some degree of detail before starting the WG that will anyway
be the first task to do, so let=B9s try to get something in writing.


"1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
identification of suitable protocol mechanisms."

This is hiding the fact that there has been 6 months of work on the use
case and requirements draft (the first version of this draft was submitted
to CoRE in IETF88), which no one has disagreed is setting the stage for
this work. Look at parallel threads on this mailing list where people ask
whether their particular security-for-IoT draft fits into ACE. The answer
Hannes is giving is correctly: the scope of this work is what is outlined
by the use case and requirements draft. I don=B9t mind using the Wiki as a
working tool but this does not give traceability a year later. And I don=B9=
t
see the point if copying the use case document into a Wiki page - read the
draft and provide your comments!

When it comes to protocol design criteria, I agree that more work is
needed, for which the Wiki may be suitable. Nevertheless I insist on
documenting the design criteria and its rationale since that provides a
means for traceability. Make it a milestone to have a draft with
assumptions and design criteria  (you may include =B3architecture=B2 in thi=
s
document). This work is anyway a pre-requisite for coming to a solution,
and once you have this content, the candidate solutions are much easier
evaluated.

So, change 1) to state something like

"1=B9 )
a) complete the work on use case and requirements
b) use Wiki pages for listing assumptions and protocol design criteria,
document the result in a draft"

Proxy deployment aspects fits well into 1b)  [more in separate upcoming
mail]


2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
constrained environments.

Here I=B9m missing among other things the specific problem statement. The
preliminary conclusions from the use case and requirements draft formed
the basis for the problem statement as presented in the BOF: We lack a
mechanism for dynamic and fine grained access control for constrained
environments.=20

The process here should be to:
"2=B9) identify suitable protocol mechanisms and match candidate
authentication and authorization protocols against requirements and design
criteria, in particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access control
suitable for CoAP resource access requests in constrained environments."



3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
deployments.=B2


As mentioned above, proxy deployments could be considered as part of 1=B9b)=
.
In 2=B9) it is already stated that in particular we should consider CoAP on
interface (II). As for use of other protocols besides CoAP that issue is
orthogonal to this so I leave that out from this discussion.



G=F6ran





On 11/03/14 16:49, "Zach Shelby" <Zach.Shelby@arm.com> wrote:

>Hannes,
>
>I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item here
>seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will probably
>result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe just a
>misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the middle of
>I or III?
>
>I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even through I
>is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run CoAP/DTLS. In other
>words, some interfaces can be constrained while others are not. I think
>the charter already covers this fine.
>
>So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translation
>proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future, it
>could be tackled then.
>
>Zach
>
>On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
><hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions on
>> the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>>
>> The changes include:
>> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check a
>> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of
>> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and
>> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki
>> for capturing those.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> -----
>>
>> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained
>> Environment (ACE)
>>
>> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments where
>> network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
>> that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
>> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
>> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
>> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a
>> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>> components
>> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question also
>> arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For example,
>> a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a "digital
>> key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital
>> key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
>> authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access
>> be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?
>> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for
>> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
>> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
>> various security protocols.
>>
>> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and
>> authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include
>> Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
>> Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
>> Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread
>> deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar
>> goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and
>> utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by
>> the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>>
>> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already
>> existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
>> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
>> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken
>> into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the
>> consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an
>> authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
>> intermittent connectivity, etc.
>>
>> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
>> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
>> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the working
>> group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource server
>> by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
>> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This access
>> will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer from
>> the same resource limitations.
>>
>> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
>> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
>> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
>> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the
>> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in
>> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
>> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
>> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
>> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated
>> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment
>> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>>
>> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been made
>> the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
>> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the ability
>> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.
>> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
>> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the use
>> of protocol translation proxies.
>>
>> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
>> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
>> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party
>> offering application layer services is always the same party offering
>> network access services.
>>
>> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>
>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>
>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>> constrained environments.
>>
>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
>> deployments.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
>Zach Shelby
>Director of Technology
>ARM Internet of Things BU
>www.arm.com
>mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
>Skype: zdshelby
>LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
>
>
>-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
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>the information in any medium.  Thank you.
>
>ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
>Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
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>
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From: Sandeep Kumar <ietf@sandeep.de>
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Hi Hannes


On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <
hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

>
> 1) You need to tie the application layer security to the channel
> security since otherwise you introduce attacks.
>
>
Are you referring to the authorization tokens being tied to the (DTLS)
channel rather than to the device identity.
Can you clarify what you mean by the above statement and what attacks are
you referring to?

regards
Sandeep

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Hannes<br><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 11, 2014=
 at 8:42 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hann=
es.tschofenig@gmx.net" target=3D"_blank">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
1) You need to tie the application layer security to the channel<br>
security since otherwise you introduce attacks.<br>
<br></blockquote><div class=3D"h5"><br>Are you referring to the authorizati=
on tokens being tied to the (DTLS) channel rather than to the device identi=
ty.<br>Can you clarify what you mean by the above statement and what attack=
s are you referring to?<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"h5">regards<br>Sandeep<br></div></div></div></div><=
/div>

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This might be a bit too much into the solution space but in this
specific case you might recall that some deployments either use TLS
proxies that do a MITM (enterprise networks etc.) or terminate TLS
servers at the edge of the network. Without TLS end-to-end you obviously
don't get the security benefits from it at the application layer.

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/12/2014 04:59 PM, Sandeep Kumar wrote:
> Hi Hannes
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>     1) You need to tie the application layer security to the channel
>     security since otherwise you introduce attacks.
>=20
>=20
> Are you referring to the authorization tokens being tied to the (DTLS)
> channel rather than to the device identity.
> Can you clarify what you mean by the above statement and what attacks
> are you referring to?
>=20
> regards
> Sandeep


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Hi Goeran,

I read a little bit between the lines of your mail and your main concern
is that you want to have an RFC published with your name on it.
A wiki page to document the requirements, and use cases is not good
enough for you.

For you putting the draft text on a WG wiki feels like wasted time.
It is just a different form of documenting the work.

My experience with use cases and requirements has not been great in the
IETF. In essence everyone quickly moves on once the group decides about
a particular solution direction. It then becomes very hard (for the
chairs) to finish the requirements work since nobody wants to review or
look at them anymore.

Use cases and requirements are great during the initial part of the work
to get an understanding of the main challenges.

Having said that I will leave it to the group to decide what they want
to do: RFCs or Wiki page

Ciao
Hannes

PS: Regarding your other comment about pointing to the constraint nature
to every item. We can do that if you feel better but the entire charter
page already says 10 times that we are focusing on the constraint space.
I am sure that the reader will have understood that when they get to the
task list.


On 03/12/2014 10:32 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
> Hannes, Zach and all,
>=20
> I must say I don=B9t find the task list of the current charter very hel=
pful:
>=20
> =B3The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>=20
> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>=20
> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
> constrained environments.
>=20
> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy=

> deployments.=B2
>=20
> This list does not give much more details about the work to be conducte=
d
> than is already given by the title of the WG. To a person not having
> followed the discussion, the impression is that the work starts from
> scratch and there is no clear understanding of what to do.
>=20
> If we can=B9t formulate the problem statement and first step towards a
> solution in some degree of detail before starting the WG that will anyw=
ay
> be the first task to do, so let=B9s try to get something in writing.
>=20
>=20
> "1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms."
>=20
> This is hiding the fact that there has been 6 months of work on the use=

> case and requirements draft (the first version of this draft was submit=
ted
> to CoRE in IETF88), which no one has disagreed is setting the stage for=

> this work. Look at parallel threads on this mailing list where people a=
sk
> whether their particular security-for-IoT draft fits into ACE. The answ=
er
> Hannes is giving is correctly: the scope of this work is what is outlin=
ed
> by the use case and requirements draft. I don=B9t mind using the Wiki a=
s a
> working tool but this does not give traceability a year later. And I do=
n=B9t
> see the point if copying the use case document into a Wiki page - read =
the
> draft and provide your comments!
>=20
> When it comes to protocol design criteria, I agree that more work is
> needed, for which the Wiki may be suitable. Nevertheless I insist on
> documenting the design criteria and its rationale since that provides a=

> means for traceability. Make it a milestone to have a draft with
> assumptions and design criteria  (you may include =B3architecture=B2 in=
 this
> document). This work is anyway a pre-requisite for coming to a solution=
,
> and once you have this content, the candidate solutions are much easier=

> evaluated.
>=20
> So, change 1) to state something like
>=20
> "1=B9 )
> a) complete the work on use case and requirements
> b) use Wiki pages for listing assumptions and protocol design criteria,=

> document the result in a draft"
>=20
> Proxy deployment aspects fits well into 1b)  [more in separate upcoming=

> mail]
>=20
>=20
> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
> constrained environments.
>=20
> Here I=B9m missing among other things the specific problem statement. T=
he
> preliminary conclusions from the use case and requirements draft formed=

> the basis for the problem statement as presented in the BOF: We lack a
> mechanism for dynamic and fine grained access control for constrained
> environments.=20
>=20
> The process here should be to:
> "2=B9) identify suitable protocol mechanisms and match candidate
> authentication and authorization protocols against requirements and des=
ign
> criteria, in particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access cont=
rol
> suitable for CoAP resource access requests in constrained environments.=
"
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy=

> deployments.=B2
>=20
>=20
> As mentioned above, proxy deployments could be considered as part of 1=B9=
b).
> In 2=B9) it is already stated that in particular we should consider CoA=
P on
> interface (II). As for use of other protocols besides CoAP that issue i=
s
> orthogonal to this so I leave that out from this discussion.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> G=F6ran
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 11/03/14 16:49, "Zach Shelby" <Zach.Shelby@arm.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hannes,
>>
>> I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item here
>> seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will probabl=
y
>> result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe just a
>> misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the middle =
of
>> I or III?
>>
>> I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even throug=
h I
>> is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run CoAP/DTLS. In oth=
er
>> words, some interfaces can be constrained while others are not. I thin=
k
>> the charter already covers this fine.
>>
>> So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translation
>> proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future, it=

>> could be tackled then.
>>
>> Zach
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions=
 on
>>> the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>>>
>>> The changes include:
>>> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check =
a
>>> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>>> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of
>>> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>>> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>>> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and=

>>> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki=

>>> for capturing those.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained=

>>> Environment (ACE)
>>>
>>> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments whe=
re
>>> network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
>>> that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
>>> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
>>> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
>>> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such =
a
>>> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>>> components
>>> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question a=
lso
>>> arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For exampl=
e,
>>> a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a "digit=
al
>>> key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digi=
tal
>>> key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
>>> authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can acc=
ess
>>> be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?
>>> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for=

>>> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
>>> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
>>> various security protocols.
>>>
>>> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication =
and
>>> authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples includ=
e
>>> Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
>>> Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
>>> Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread
>>> deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar
>>> goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and
>>> utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated =
by
>>> the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>>>
>>> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of alrea=
dy
>>> existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
>>> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
>>> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be tak=
en
>>> into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining =
the
>>> consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact =
an
>>> authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
>>> intermittent connectivity, etc.
>>>
>>> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
>>> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
>>> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the worki=
ng
>>> group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource serv=
er
>>> by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
>>> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This acce=
ss
>>> will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer fr=
om
>>> the same resource limitations.
>>>
>>> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
>>> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
>>> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
>>> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of th=
e
>>> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available i=
n
>>> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
>>> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
>>> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
>>> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federate=
d
>>> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deploymen=
t
>>> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>>>
>>> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been ma=
de
>>> the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
>>> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the abilit=
y
>>> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.=

>>> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
>>> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the u=
se
>>> of protocol translation proxies.
>>>
>>> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
>>> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
>>> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the pa=
rty
>>> offering application layer services is always the same party offering=

>>> network access services.
>>>
>>> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>>
>>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>>
>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>> constrained environments.
>>>
>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and pro=
xy
>>> deployments.
>>>
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>> Hannes
>>>
>>> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>
>> Zach Shelby
>> Director of Technology
>> ARM Internet of Things BU
>> www.arm.com
>> mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
>> Skype: zdshelby
>> LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
>>
>>
>> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments ar=
e
>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose th=
e
>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy=

>> the information in any medium.  Thank you.
>>
>> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
>> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9=
NJ,
>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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From nobody Thu Mar 13 01:24:05 2014
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 22:08:37 +0100
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter - connectivity assumptions
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Hi Goeran,

thanks for moving this difficult point forward.

Comments inline.


On 03/11/2014 10:26 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>=20
> During the BOF it was requested to be more specific about the connectiv=
ity
> assumptions of the various nodes, more specifically whether it could be=

> assumed that the RS or the Client could connect to the AS. The discussi=
on
> was very focused on the particular use case presented at the BOF. Here =
are
> some starting points for further discussion.
>=20
> 1. The discussion relates to Client or RS connectivity to the AS for
> obtaining relevant authorization information. If valid authorization in=
fo
> is already available to the RS, it should not be necessary to connect t=
o
> the AS.=20

Yes, if the authorization information + keying material is already
cached then it does not need to be retrieved again.

There is, however, a trade-off when it comes to revocation: the longer
you are able to cache the more difficult it will be to quickly revoke.

>=20
> 2. It was acknowledged that in the particular use case (container
> transport at sea) Internet connectivity could not be assumed. Even if t=
his
> hadn=B9t been the case, e.g. truck/train transport or other use case, w=
e
> should not take for granted that billions of devices are always connect=
ed
> just because it is theoretically possible. Internet connectivity has a
> cost and low cost is one of the reasons why constrained devices are at =
all
> used. There may be some need for configuration needed to secure
> connectivity, which may be missing if the environment changes as was
> illustrated by the use case. Etc. . With this in mind, we should assume=

> that for certain use cases the constrained Client or RS may be
> disconnected from the Internet for periods of time.

What about having connectivity to an authorization server that is on
board the ship? To translate this to the home networking case you it is
one thing to assume connectivity to some server on the Internet and a
different aspect to assume connectivity to an authorization in the
user's home network.

Needless to say with your assumption is that if you do not have Internet
connectivity then some value of Internet connected devices (e.g., remote
monitoring, remote configuration) goes away.

>=20
> 3. Even if the AS is not a constrained device it may be disconnected fr=
om
> time to other. For some use cases, AS functionality may be implemented =
in
> devices which are not always available, e.g. the Resource Owner=B9s
> smartphone, home server or some other device which may be occasionally
> switched off or disconnected.

Do we accept the side effect that the solution will not work in some of
those cases? If there is no information cached at client<->RS then
without connectivity to the AS the entire mechanism will not work.


> In general we should assume that Client and RS may have intermittent
> connectivity with the AS, and in particular that it cannot  be guarante=
ed
> that there is connectivity to the AS at the time of the access request.=


You are saying that with some requests you assume there is connectivity
and with other requests there isn't. That does not sound right to me.

The client / RS needs to obtain authorization information and keying
material from the AS. They also need to peridically check the revocation
status. They are also likely to require time information.
This will not work without some level of connectivity.

Ciao
Hannes

>=20
>=20
> G=F6ran
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>, Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
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From nobody Thu Mar 13 03:57:23 2014
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 06:55:19 -0400
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From: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com>
To: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>, Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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From: =?windows-1254?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:53:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Hi Hannes,

On 12/03/14 21:33, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

>Hi Goeran,
>
>I read a little bit between the lines of your mail and your main concern
>is that you want to have an RFC published with your name on it.
>A wiki page to document the requirements, and use cases is not good
>enough for you.

Interesting comment. Could someone please tell me if I=92ve broken some
etiquette and deserve this treatment?
=20

>
>For you putting the draft text on a WG wiki feels like wasted time.
>It is just a different form of documenting the work.
>
>My experience with use cases and requirements has not been great in the
>IETF. In essence everyone quickly moves on once the group decides about
>a particular solution direction. It then becomes very hard (for the
>chairs) to finish the requirements work since nobody wants to review or
>look at them anymore.

OK - this is exactly my point: If you don=92t complete the use case and
requirements work there is no traceability. I hear something similar on
the list.

>
>Use cases and requirements are great during the initial part of the work
>to get an understanding of the main challenges.
>
>Having said that I will leave it to the group to decide what they want
>to do: RFCs or Wiki page
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>PS: Regarding your other comment about pointing to the constraint nature
>to every item. We can do that if you feel better but the entire charter
>page already says 10 times that we are focusing on the constraint space.
>I am sure that the reader will have understood that when they get to the
>task list.


"your other comment about pointing to the constraint nature to every item=
=94
???


- I proposed to explicitly include the detailed problem statement we used
in the BOF which is missing not only in the task description.

- I proposed to specifically mention CoAP in access request (i.e.
Interface II) in the task description, which seems to be consensus on the
list.

(Again, did I break some etiquette by explicitly proposing charter text?
Was this =93nit picking=94? What went wrong?)


G=F6ran


>
>
>On 03/12/2014 10:32 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>> Hannes, Zach and all,
>>=20
>> I must say I don=B9t find the task list of the current charter very
>>helpful:
>>=20
>> =B3The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>=20
>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>=20
>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>> constrained environments.
>>=20
>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
>> deployments.=B2
>>=20
>> This list does not give much more details about the work to be conducted
>> than is already given by the title of the WG. To a person not having
>> followed the discussion, the impression is that the work starts from
>> scratch and there is no clear understanding of what to do.
>>=20
>> If we can=B9t formulate the problem statement and first step towards a
>> solution in some degree of detail before starting the WG that will
>>anyway
>> be the first task to do, so let=B9s try to get something in writing.
>>=20
>>=20
>> "1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms."
>>=20
>> This is hiding the fact that there has been 6 months of work on the use
>> case and requirements draft (the first version of this draft was
>>submitted
>> to CoRE in IETF88), which no one has disagreed is setting the stage for
>> this work. Look at parallel threads on this mailing list where people
>>ask
>> whether their particular security-for-IoT draft fits into ACE. The
>>answer
>> Hannes is giving is correctly: the scope of this work is what is
>>outlined
>> by the use case and requirements draft. I don=B9t mind using the Wiki as=
 a
>> working tool but this does not give traceability a year later. And I
>>don=B9t
>> see the point if copying the use case document into a Wiki page - read
>>the
>> draft and provide your comments!
>>=20
>> When it comes to protocol design criteria, I agree that more work is
>> needed, for which the Wiki may be suitable. Nevertheless I insist on
>> documenting the design criteria and its rationale since that provides a
>> means for traceability. Make it a milestone to have a draft with
>> assumptions and design criteria  (you may include =B3architecture=B2 in =
this
>> document). This work is anyway a pre-requisite for coming to a solution,
>> and once you have this content, the candidate solutions are much easier
>> evaluated.
>>=20
>> So, change 1) to state something like
>>=20
>> "1=B9 )
>> a) complete the work on use case and requirements
>> b) use Wiki pages for listing assumptions and protocol design criteria,
>> document the result in a draft"
>>=20
>> Proxy deployment aspects fits well into 1b)  [more in separate upcoming
>> mail]
>>=20
>>=20
>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>> constrained environments.
>>=20
>> Here I=B9m missing among other things the specific problem statement. Th=
e
>> preliminary conclusions from the use case and requirements draft formed
>> the basis for the problem statement as presented in the BOF: We lack a
>> mechanism for dynamic and fine grained access control for constrained
>> environments.=20
>>=20
>> The process here should be to:
>> "2=B9) identify suitable protocol mechanisms and match candidate
>> authentication and authorization protocols against requirements and
>>design
>> criteria, in particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access
>>control
>> suitable for CoAP resource access requests in constrained environments."
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
>> deployments.=B2
>>=20
>>=20
>> As mentioned above, proxy deployments could be considered as part of
>>1=B9b).
>> In 2=B9) it is already stated that in particular we should consider CoAP
>>on
>> interface (II). As for use of other protocols besides CoAP that issue is
>> orthogonal to this so I leave that out from this discussion.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> G=F6ran
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 11/03/14 16:49, "Zach Shelby" <Zach.Shelby@arm.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hannes,
>>>
>>> I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item here
>>> seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will probably
>>> result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe just a
>>> misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the middle
>>>of
>>> I or III?
>>>
>>> I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even
>>>through I
>>> is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run CoAP/DTLS. In
>>>other
>>> words, some interfaces can be constrained while others are not. I think
>>> the charter already covers this fine.
>>>
>>> So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translation
>>> proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future, it
>>> could be tackled then.
>>>
>>> Zach
>>>
>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussions
>>>>on
>>>> the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>>>>
>>>> The changes include:
>>>> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will check a
>>>> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>>>> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of
>>>> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>>>> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>>>> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, and
>>>> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wiki
>>>> for capturing those.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained
>>>> Environment (ACE)
>>>>
>>>> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments
>>>>where
>>>> network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
>>>> that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
>>>> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
>>>> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
>>>> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a
>>>> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>>>> components
>>>> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question
>>>>also
>>>> arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For
>>>>example,
>>>> a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a
>>>>"digital
>>>> key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the
>>>>digital
>>>> key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
>>>> authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can
>>>>access
>>>> be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?
>>>> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for
>>>> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
>>>> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
>>>> various security protocols.
>>>>
>>>> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication
>>>>and
>>>> authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include
>>>> Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
>>>> Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
>>>> Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread
>>>> deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar
>>>> goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and
>>>> utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated
>>>>by
>>>> the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>>>>
>>>> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of
>>>>already
>>>> existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
>>>> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
>>>> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be
>>>>taken
>>>> into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining
>>>>the
>>>> consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact
>>>>an
>>>> authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
>>>> intermittent connectivity, etc.
>>>>
>>>> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
>>>> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
>>>> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the
>>>>working
>>>> group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource
>>>>server
>>>> by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
>>>> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This
>>>>access
>>>> will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer
>>>>from
>>>> the same resource limitations.
>>>>
>>>> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
>>>> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
>>>> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
>>>> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the
>>>> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in
>>>> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
>>>> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
>>>> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
>>>> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated
>>>> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment
>>>> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>>>>
>>>> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been
>>>>made
>>>> the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
>>>> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the ability
>>>> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated.
>>>> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
>>>> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the
>>>>use
>>>> of protocol translation proxies.
>>>>
>>>> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
>>>> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
>>>> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the
>>>>party
>>>> offering application layer services is always the same party offering
>>>> network access services.
>>>>
>>>> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>>>
>>>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>
>>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
>>>>proxy
>>>> deployments.
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> Ciao
>>>> Hannes
>>>>
>>>> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>
>>> Zach Shelby
>>> Director of Technology
>>> ARM Internet of Things BU
>>> www.arm.com
>>> mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
>>> Skype: zdshelby
>>> LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
>>>
>>>
>>> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
>>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy
>>> the information in any medium.  Thank you.
>>>
>>> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
>>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>


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Subject: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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Goeran raised a question about adding a milestone for a document that
captures assumptions and design criteria.

He contributed an initial version of such a document with
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00

What does the rest of the group think about that idea?

Would you be willing to review such a document?
Would you be willing to contribute to such a document?

Ciao
Hannes


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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Hi Goeran,

sorry if I was a bit too direct and went straight down to the meat of
your comment.

Regarding the "traceability" note that requirements have never been a
sort of "contract". Whenever there are reasons to violate the
requirements then this has been done. For example, the group may gain
some new insight during the solution work.

But as I said, I listen to the group when it comes to this issue.

There is, however, an interesting aspect to your remark in your email
below. Are you suggesting that we should sequence the work meaning that
solution work should only start after the use cases are finished? That
has advantages and disadvantages but it certainly has an impact on the
milestones. You seem to be saying "yes, they should be sequenced" and I
also see Margaret=92s mail to the list saying "no".

Regarding to the charter I will post a mail to the list and hopefully it
meets your needs.

Ciao
Hannes



On 03/13/2014 12:53 PM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
> Hi Hannes,
>=20
> On 12/03/14 21:33, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrot=
e:
>=20
>> Hi Goeran,
>>
>> I read a little bit between the lines of your mail and your main conce=
rn
>> is that you want to have an RFC published with your name on it.
>> A wiki page to document the requirements, and use cases is not good
>> enough for you.
>=20
> Interesting comment. Could someone please tell me if I=92ve broken some=

> etiquette and deserve this treatment?
> =20
>=20
>>
>> For you putting the draft text on a WG wiki feels like wasted time.
>> It is just a different form of documenting the work.
>>
>> My experience with use cases and requirements has not been great in th=
e
>> IETF. In essence everyone quickly moves on once the group decides abou=
t
>> a particular solution direction. It then becomes very hard (for the
>> chairs) to finish the requirements work since nobody wants to review o=
r
>> look at them anymore.
>=20
> OK - this is exactly my point: If you don=92t complete the use case and=

> requirements work there is no traceability. I hear something similar on=

> the list.
>=20
>>
>> Use cases and requirements are great during the initial part of the wo=
rk
>> to get an understanding of the main challenges.
>>
>> Having said that I will leave it to the group to decide what they want=

>> to do: RFCs or Wiki page
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> PS: Regarding your other comment about pointing to the constraint natu=
re
>> to every item. We can do that if you feel better but the entire charte=
r
>> page already says 10 times that we are focusing on the constraint spac=
e.
>> I am sure that the reader will have understood that when they get to t=
he
>> task list.
>=20
>=20
> "your other comment about pointing to the constraint nature to every it=
em=94
> ???
>=20
>=20
> - I proposed to explicitly include the detailed problem statement we us=
ed
> in the BOF which is missing not only in the task description.
>=20
> - I proposed to specifically mention CoAP in access request (i.e.
> Interface II) in the task description, which seems to be consensus on t=
he
> list.
>=20
> (Again, did I break some etiquette by explicitly proposing charter text=
?
> Was this =93nit picking=94? What went wrong?)
>=20
>=20
> G=F6ran
>=20
>=20
>>
>>
>> On 03/12/2014 10:32 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>>> Hannes, Zach and all,
>>>
>>> I must say I don=B9t find the task list of the current charter very
>>> helpful:
>>>
>>> =B3The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>>
>>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>>
>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>> constrained environments.
>>>
>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and pro=
xy
>>> deployments.=B2
>>>
>>> This list does not give much more details about the work to be conduc=
ted
>>> than is already given by the title of the WG. To a person not having
>>> followed the discussion, the impression is that the work starts from
>>> scratch and there is no clear understanding of what to do.
>>>
>>> If we can=B9t formulate the problem statement and first step towards =
a
>>> solution in some degree of detail before starting the WG that will
>>> anyway
>>> be the first task to do, so let=B9s try to get something in writing.
>>>
>>>
>>> "1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms."
>>>
>>> This is hiding the fact that there has been 6 months of work on the u=
se
>>> case and requirements draft (the first version of this draft was
>>> submitted
>>> to CoRE in IETF88), which no one has disagreed is setting the stage f=
or
>>> this work. Look at parallel threads on this mailing list where people=

>>> ask
>>> whether their particular security-for-IoT draft fits into ACE. The
>>> answer
>>> Hannes is giving is correctly: the scope of this work is what is
>>> outlined
>>> by the use case and requirements draft. I don=B9t mind using the Wiki=
 as a
>>> working tool but this does not give traceability a year later. And I
>>> don=B9t
>>> see the point if copying the use case document into a Wiki page - rea=
d
>>> the
>>> draft and provide your comments!
>>>
>>> When it comes to protocol design criteria, I agree that more work is
>>> needed, for which the Wiki may be suitable. Nevertheless I insist on
>>> documenting the design criteria and its rationale since that provides=
 a
>>> means for traceability. Make it a milestone to have a draft with
>>> assumptions and design criteria  (you may include =B3architecture=B2 =
in this
>>> document). This work is anyway a pre-requisite for coming to a soluti=
on,
>>> and once you have this content, the candidate solutions are much easi=
er
>>> evaluated.
>>>
>>> So, change 1) to state something like
>>>
>>> "1=B9 )
>>> a) complete the work on use case and requirements
>>> b) use Wiki pages for listing assumptions and protocol design criteri=
a,
>>> document the result in a draft"
>>>
>>> Proxy deployment aspects fits well into 1b)  [more in separate upcomi=
ng
>>> mail]
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>> constrained environments.
>>>
>>> Here I=B9m missing among other things the specific problem statement.=
 The
>>> preliminary conclusions from the use case and requirements draft form=
ed
>>> the basis for the problem statement as presented in the BOF: We lack =
a
>>> mechanism for dynamic and fine grained access control for constrained=

>>> environments.=20
>>>
>>> The process here should be to:
>>> "2=B9) identify suitable protocol mechanisms and match candidate
>>> authentication and authorization protocols against requirements and
>>> design
>>> criteria, in particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access
>>> control
>>> suitable for CoAP resource access requests in constrained environment=
s."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and pro=
xy
>>> deployments.=B2
>>>
>>>
>>> As mentioned above, proxy deployments could be considered as part of
>>> 1=B9b).
>>> In 2=B9) it is already stated that in particular we should consider C=
oAP
>>> on
>>> interface (II). As for use of other protocols besides CoAP that issue=
 is
>>> orthogonal to this so I leave that out from this discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> G=F6ran
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/03/14 16:49, "Zach Shelby" <Zach.Shelby@arm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hannes,
>>>>
>>>> I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item here=

>>>> seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will proba=
bly
>>>> result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe just a
>>>> misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the middl=
e
>>>> of
>>>> I or III?
>>>>
>>>> I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even
>>>> through I
>>>> is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run CoAP/DTLS. In
>>>> other
>>>> words, some interfaces can be constrained while others are not. I th=
ink
>>>> the charter already covers this fine.
>>>>
>>>> So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translatio=
n
>>>> proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future, =
it
>>>> could be tackled then.
>>>>
>>>> Zach
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent discussio=
ns
>>>>> on
>>>>> the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>>>>>
>>>>> The changes include:
>>>>> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will chec=
k a
>>>>> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>>>>> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability o=
f
>>>>> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>>>>> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>>>>> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements, a=
nd
>>>>> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a Wi=
ki
>>>>> for capturing those.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>>
>>>>> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrain=
ed
>>>>> Environment (ACE)
>>>>>
>>>>> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments
>>>>> where
>>>>> network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observe=
d
>>>>> that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
>>>>> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In=

>>>>> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specifi=
c
>>>>> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of suc=
h a
>>>>> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>>>>> components
>>>>> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question=

>>>>> also
>>>>> arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For
>>>>> example,
>>>>> a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a
>>>>> "digital
>>>>> key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the
>>>>> digital
>>>>> key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
>>>>> authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can
>>>>> access
>>>>> be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?=

>>>>> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols f=
or
>>>>> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
>>>>> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of=

>>>>> various security protocols.
>>>>>
>>>>> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authenticatio=
n
>>>>> and
>>>>> authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples incl=
ude
>>>>> Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
>>>>> Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
>>>>> Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widesprea=
d
>>>>> deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a simila=
r
>>>>> goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions an=
d
>>>>> utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivate=
d
>>>>> by
>>>>> the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>>>>>
>>>>> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of
>>>>> already
>>>>> existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
>>>>> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
>>>>> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be
>>>>> taken
>>>>> into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtainin=
g
>>>>> the
>>>>> consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contac=
t
>>>>> an
>>>>> authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
>>>>> intermittent connectivity, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
>>>>> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
>>>>> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the
>>>>> working
>>>>> group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource
>>>>> server
>>>>> by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS=
=2E
>>>>> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This
>>>>> access
>>>>> will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer
>>>>> from
>>>>> the same resource limitations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
>>>>> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This=

>>>>> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
>>>>> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of =
the
>>>>> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available=
 in
>>>>> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
>>>>> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
>>>>> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
>>>>> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federa=
ted
>>>>> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deploym=
ent
>>>>> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been
>>>>> made
>>>>> the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
>>>>> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the abil=
ity
>>>>> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigate=
d.
>>>>> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
>>>>> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the=

>>>>> use
>>>>> of protocol translation proxies.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,=

>>>>> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
>>>>> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the
>>>>> party
>>>>> offering application layer services is always the same party offeri=
ng
>>>>> network access services.
>>>>>
>>>>> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,=

>>>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide th=
e
>>>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
>>>>> proxy
>>>>> deployments.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>>
>>>>> Ciao
>>>>> Hannes
>>>>>
>>>>> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>
>>>> Zach Shelby
>>>> Director of Technology
>>>> ARM Internet of Things BU
>>>> www.arm.com
>>>> mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
>>>> Skype: zdshelby
>>>> LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments =
are
>>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended=

>>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose =
the
>>>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or co=
py
>>>> the information in any medium.  Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,=

>>>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
>>>> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1=

>>>> 9NJ,
>>>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>
>>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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--> Here is an update based on comments from Goeran.

Draft Charter V0.6 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained
Environment (ACE)

The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments where
network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a
protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).

As in other environments, authentication and authorization question also
arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For example,
a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a "digital
key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital
key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can access
be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?
These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for
use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
various security protocols. In particular, the need for a dynamic and
fine grained access control mechanism whereby clients and/or resource
servers suffer from constraints arises.

The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and
authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include
Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread
deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar
goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and
utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated by
the main deployment use cases they were designed for.

Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already
existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken
into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining the
consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact an
authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
intermittent connectivity, etc.

This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the working
group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource server
by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This access
will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer from
the same resource limitations.

Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the
specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in
existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated
authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment
of IoT devices offering increased security.

Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been made
the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS, which are the two main
protocols the group will focus on for access to resources. In
particular, the ability to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS
will be investigated. Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the
integration with existing deployment will be studied. This particularly
concerns the use of protocol translation proxies.

To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the party
offering application layer services is always the same party offering
network access services.

The working group has the following tasks (in this order):

1) Use cases, requirements, and design criteria.
[[Details pending mailing list discussion.]]
This work will guide the identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.

2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
constrained environments.

3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
deployments.
[[Details pending mailing list discussion.]]


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From nobody Thu Mar 13 05:48:32 2014
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Subject: [Ace] When to deal with proxies?
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Hi all,

Goeran raised a question in the charter discussion about when to
investigate suitability of the solution regarding proxies.

With version 0.5 of the charter I suggested to explore the proxy issues*
after a candidate solution had been selected.

He suggested, however, to deal with proxies already during as part of
the requirements/use case/design considerations phase.

What would you like to do?

Ciao
Hannes

PS: We discussed various types of proxies on the list. Some proxies were
protocol translation proxies that provided the ability to interface with
other protocols (e.g., HTTP) and deployed infrastructure (some backend
authentication/authorization infrastructure) and yet other proxies were
part of the CoAP protocol.


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From nobody Thu Mar 13 05:56:02 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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On 03/13/2014 11:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> I do not think the other work of the group should be gated on the
> requirements, though, as I think that it makes sense to explore how
> existing technologies could or couldn't meet the requirements to insure=

> that our requirements are reality-based.

Thanks for your feedback, Margaret.

Btw, as part of the current charter we are not planning to capture what
existing technologies could or couldn't meet the requirements.

Would you see that as being useful?

Ciao
Hannes



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From nobody Thu Mar 13 06:28:46 2014
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Hi all,

reading through Sam's email and various comments during the BOF I was
wondering whether the group has a consensus to assume that the
authorization is not a constrained device.

In earlier discussions we said that the client and/or the resource
server are constrained.

Thoughts?

Ciao
Hannes


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From: =?windows-1254?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 14:02:32 +0000
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References: <531EC063.3000903@gmx.net> <33D17082-A12A-41A3-9CFF-7EF6E802648D@arm.com> <CF45E54B.B130%goran.selander@ericsson.com> <5320C480.9070609@gmx.net> <CF474C7B.B349%goran.selander@ericsson.com> <5321082E.6040502@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Hi Hannes

On 13/03/14 02:21, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

>Hi Goeran,
>
>sorry if I was a bit too direct and went straight down to the meat of
>your comment.

Well, I disagree with your interpretation of "the meat=94 of my comment, bu=
t
I think I=92ve made my point clear, so let=92s leave it at that.

>
>Regarding the "traceability" note that requirements have never been a
>sort of "contract". Whenever there are reasons to violate the
>requirements then this has been done. For example, the group may gain
>some new insight during the solution work.
>
>But as I said, I listen to the group when it comes to this issue.
>
>There is, however, an interesting aspect to your remark in your email
>below. Are you suggesting that we should sequence the work meaning that
>solution work should only start after the use cases are finished? That
>has advantages and disadvantages but it certainly has an impact on the
>milestones. You seem to be saying "yes, they should be sequenced" and I
>also see Margaret=92s mail to the list saying "no".

I don=92t have a strong opinion here and certainly do not insist on a
=93waterfall=94 design model. It could be fruitful to elaborate on differen=
t
requirements as long as you are aware of what requirements you break and
what the consequences might be in terms of e.g. supported use cases or
security.

G=F6ran


>
>Regarding to the charter I will post a mail to the list and hopefully it
>meets your needs.
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>
>
>On 03/13/2014 12:53 PM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>> Hi Hannes,
>>=20
>> On 12/03/14 21:33, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
>>wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi Goeran,
>>>
>>> I read a little bit between the lines of your mail and your main
>>>concern
>>> is that you want to have an RFC published with your name on it.
>>> A wiki page to document the requirements, and use cases is not good
>>> enough for you.
>>=20
>> Interesting comment. Could someone please tell me if I=92ve broken some
>> etiquette and deserve this treatment?
>> =20
>>=20
>>>
>>> For you putting the draft text on a WG wiki feels like wasted time.
>>> It is just a different form of documenting the work.
>>>
>>> My experience with use cases and requirements has not been great in the
>>> IETF. In essence everyone quickly moves on once the group decides about
>>> a particular solution direction. It then becomes very hard (for the
>>> chairs) to finish the requirements work since nobody wants to review or
>>> look at them anymore.
>>=20
>> OK - this is exactly my point: If you don=92t complete the use case and
>> requirements work there is no traceability. I hear something similar on
>> the list.
>>=20
>>>
>>> Use cases and requirements are great during the initial part of the
>>>work
>>> to get an understanding of the main challenges.
>>>
>>> Having said that I will leave it to the group to decide what they want
>>> to do: RFCs or Wiki page
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>> Hannes
>>>
>>> PS: Regarding your other comment about pointing to the constraint
>>>nature
>>> to every item. We can do that if you feel better but the entire charter
>>> page already says 10 times that we are focusing on the constraint
>>>space.
>>> I am sure that the reader will have understood that when they get to
>>>the
>>> task list.
>>=20
>>=20
>> "your other comment about pointing to the constraint nature to every
>>item=94
>> ???
>>=20
>>=20
>> - I proposed to explicitly include the detailed problem statement we
>>used
>> in the BOF which is missing not only in the task description.
>>=20
>> - I proposed to specifically mention CoAP in access request (i.e.
>> Interface II) in the task description, which seems to be consensus on
>>the
>> list.
>>=20
>> (Again, did I break some etiquette by explicitly proposing charter text?
>> Was this =93nit picking=94? What went wrong?)
>>=20
>>=20
>> G=F6ran
>>=20
>>=20
>>>
>>>
>>> On 03/12/2014 10:32 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>>>> Hannes, Zach and all,
>>>>
>>>> I must say I don=B9t find the task list of the current charter very
>>>> helpful:
>>>>
>>>> =B3The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>>>
>>>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>
>>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
>>>>proxy
>>>> deployments.=B2
>>>>
>>>> This list does not give much more details about the work to be
>>>>conducted
>>>> than is already given by the title of the WG. To a person not having
>>>> followed the discussion, the impression is that the work starts from
>>>> scratch and there is no clear understanding of what to do.
>>>>
>>>> If we can=B9t formulate the problem statement and first step towards a
>>>> solution in some degree of detail before starting the WG that will
>>>> anyway
>>>> be the first task to do, so let=B9s try to get something in writing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms."
>>>>
>>>> This is hiding the fact that there has been 6 months of work on the
>>>>use
>>>> case and requirements draft (the first version of this draft was
>>>> submitted
>>>> to CoRE in IETF88), which no one has disagreed is setting the stage
>>>>for
>>>> this work. Look at parallel threads on this mailing list where people
>>>> ask
>>>> whether their particular security-for-IoT draft fits into ACE. The
>>>> answer
>>>> Hannes is giving is correctly: the scope of this work is what is
>>>> outlined
>>>> by the use case and requirements draft. I don=B9t mind using the Wiki
>>>>as a
>>>> working tool but this does not give traceability a year later. And I
>>>> don=B9t
>>>> see the point if copying the use case document into a Wiki page - read
>>>> the
>>>> draft and provide your comments!
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to protocol design criteria, I agree that more work is
>>>> needed, for which the Wiki may be suitable. Nevertheless I insist on
>>>> documenting the design criteria and its rationale since that provides
>>>>a
>>>> means for traceability. Make it a milestone to have a draft with
>>>> assumptions and design criteria  (you may include =B3architecture=B2 i=
n
>>>>this
>>>> document). This work is anyway a pre-requisite for coming to a
>>>>solution,
>>>> and once you have this content, the candidate solutions are much
>>>>easier
>>>> evaluated.
>>>>
>>>> So, change 1) to state something like
>>>>
>>>> "1=B9 )
>>>> a) complete the work on use case and requirements
>>>> b) use Wiki pages for listing assumptions and protocol design
>>>>criteria,
>>>> document the result in a draft"
>>>>
>>>> Proxy deployment aspects fits well into 1b)  [more in separate
>>>>upcoming
>>>> mail]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>
>>>> Here I=B9m missing among other things the specific problem statement.
>>>>The
>>>> preliminary conclusions from the use case and requirements draft
>>>>formed
>>>> the basis for the problem statement as presented in the BOF: We lack a
>>>> mechanism for dynamic and fine grained access control for constrained
>>>> environments.=20
>>>>
>>>> The process here should be to:
>>>> "2=B9) identify suitable protocol mechanisms and match candidate
>>>> authentication and authorization protocols against requirements and
>>>> design
>>>> criteria, in particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access
>>>> control
>>>> suitable for CoAP resource access requests in constrained
>>>>environments."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
>>>>proxy
>>>> deployments.=B2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As mentioned above, proxy deployments could be considered as part of
>>>> 1=B9b).
>>>> In 2=B9) it is already stated that in particular we should consider Co=
AP
>>>> on
>>>> interface (II). As for use of other protocols besides CoAP that issue
>>>>is
>>>> orthogonal to this so I leave that out from this discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> G=F6ran
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/03/14 16:49, "Zach Shelby" <Zach.Shelby@arm.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hannes,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item here
>>>>> seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will
>>>>>probably
>>>>> result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe just a
>>>>> misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the middle
>>>>> of
>>>>> I or III?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even
>>>>> through I
>>>>> is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run CoAP/DTLS. In
>>>>> other
>>>>> words, some interfaces can be constrained while others are not. I
>>>>>think
>>>>> the charter already covers this fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translation
>>>>> proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future,
>>>>>it
>>>>> could be tackled then.
>>>>>
>>>>> Zach
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent
>>>>>>discussions
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the mailing list and produced a new strawman proposal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The changes include:
>>>>>> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will
>>>>>>check a
>>>>>> candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>>>>>> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability of
>>>>>> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>>>>>> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>>>>>> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements,
>>>>>>and
>>>>>> protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use of a
>>>>>>Wiki
>>>>>> for capturing those.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for
>>>>>>Constrained
>>>>>> Environment (ACE)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
>>>>>> that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
>>>>>> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
>>>>>> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
>>>>>> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of
>>>>>>such a
>>>>>> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>>>>>> components
>>>>>> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For
>>>>>> example,
>>>>>> a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a
>>>>>> "digital
>>>>>> key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does the
>>>>>> digital
>>>>>> key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an
>>>>>> authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can
>>>>>> access
>>>>>> be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?
>>>>>> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols
>>>>>>for
>>>>>> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
>>>>>> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
>>>>>> various security protocols.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples
>>>>>>include
>>>>>> Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication,
>>>>>> Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web
>>>>>> Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy widespread
>>>>>> deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a similar
>>>>>> goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and
>>>>>> utilize different message exchanges. These differences are motivated
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
>>>>>> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
>>>>>> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be
>>>>>> taken
>>>>>> into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to contact
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> authorization server in real-time with every access request due to
>>>>>> intermittent connectivity, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
>>>>>> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
>>>>>> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the
>>>>>> working
>>>>>> group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource
>>>>>> server
>>>>>> by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
>>>>>> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This
>>>>>> access
>>>>>> will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> the same resource limitations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
>>>>>> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
>>>>>> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
>>>>>> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available
>>>>>>in
>>>>>> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
>>>>>> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
>>>>>> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
>>>>>> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for
>>>>>>federated
>>>>>> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the
>>>>>>deployment
>>>>>> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been
>>>>>> made
>>>>>> the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
>>>>>> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, the
>>>>>>ability
>>>>>> to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be
>>>>>>investigated.
>>>>>> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
>>>>>> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> of protocol translation proxies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
>>>>>> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
>>>>>> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the
>>>>>> party
>>>>>> offering application layer services is always the same party
>>>>>>offering
>>>>>> network access services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,
>>>>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide the
>>>>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
>>>>>> proxy
>>>>>> deployments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ciao
>>>>>> Hannes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
>>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>>
>>>>> Zach Shelby
>>>>> Director of Technology
>>>>> ARM Internet of Things BU
>>>>> www.arm.com
>>>>> mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
>>>>> Skype: zdshelby
>>>>> LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments
>>>>>are
>>>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose
>>>>>the
>>>>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or
>>>>>copy
>>>>> the information in any medium.  Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
>>>>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
>>>>> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1
>>>>> 9NJ,
>>>>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>
>>>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>


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--=-=-=


I propose that there be a use case Informational ID, which over time,
will transform into a roadmap/architectural document.  It will not be
published "prior" to the standards track documents, but since it will
be referenced by them all, they won't go forward either without it.

(this is essentially how homenet has turned out, but we didn't do it
intentionally... )

I agree with Hannes that we the use cases/requirements can be hard to
complete and the approach of "no desert until you finish your veggies"
sometimes works, but as often as not, it just means it takes a long time.

Pick someone to edit the use case document who really wants an RFC credit,
and their personal motiviation will get it done.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [


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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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Hi Hannes

Thanks for bringing this up. Let me give some context.

In the preparation for the BOF (and as was later shown in the BOF) it was
clear that there are strong opinions about the (in)feasibility of /public
key/ crypto in constrained devices. Some people state that =B3there will
only be two public key operations in the lifetime of this device=B2,
referring to the high cost for asymmetric crypto so that they are only
used to establishing secret keys that are used thereafter. Yet other
people state =B3the cost for public key crypto is negligable in today=B9s
devices=B2=20

Looking into the literature it is clear that public key crypto is in many
cases affordable, but also that it does not come for free. Moreover, when
comparing e.g. with message transmission and reception in wireless
embedded devices, you get another picture what may be expensive in
security protocol execution from an energy consumption point of view.
Section 3.2.2 discusses this in a symmetric crypto context.

This draft was put together in a rush a few days before cutoff and
contains mainly obvious things. As said, I=B9m happy to use this as a basis
for a Wiki or restart the discussion. What I would like to see documented
is the (non-obvious) cost comparisons  and trade-offs between e.g.
round-trips and crypto operations, symmetric vs asymmetric operations etc.
to be able to refer to in future discussions when we need to assess the
feasibility of a particular security protocol in a constrained environment.


G=F6ran


On 13/03/14 02:09, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

>Goeran raised a question about adding a milestone for a document that
>captures assumptions and design criteria.
>
>He contributed an initial version of such a document with
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00
>
>What does the rest of the group think about that idea?
>
>Would you be willing to review such a document?
>Would you be willing to contribute to such a document?
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>


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Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> writes:

> reading through Sam's email and various comments during the BOF I was
> wondering whether the group has a consensus to assume that the
> authorization is not a constrained device.

>From what I took from the discussions since the Berlin IETF that
eventually led to the ACE BoF, I always had the impression that the
Authorization Server is regarded as not constrained in non-trivial
use-cases.

Gruesse
Olaf


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On 03/13/2014 03:02 PM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
> I don=92t have a strong opinion here and certainly do not insist on a
> =93waterfall=94 design model. It could be fruitful to elaborate on diff=
erent
> requirements as long as you are aware of what requirements you break an=
d
> what the consequences might be in terms of e.g. supported use cases or
> security.

I have seen both approaches being used and there are advantages and
disadvantages. The benefit is that it forces folks to agree on the
requirements early rather to push them into the solution space. On the
other hand, everyone has some solutions in mind and hence they argue for
their solution via requirements.

If you move on too early there is the risk that you haven't actually
concluded the use case/requirements discussion. If you start too late
people moved on to do other things already and the work becomes irrelevan=
t.

Ciao
Hannes




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Subject: Re: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> writes:

> Goeran raised a question about adding a milestone for a document that
> captures assumptions and design criteria.

I think that this document would be useful to track assumptions and
design considerations. If there was a milestone for this (is that really
necessary?) than it should be very later, after finishing most of the
protocol design.

Gruesse
Olaf


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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 16:45:57 +0100
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
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Hi Michael,

On 03/13/2014 03:37 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>=20
> I propose that there be a use case Informational ID, which over time,
> will transform into a roadmap/architectural document.  It will not be
> published "prior" to the standards track documents, but since it will
> be referenced by them all, they won't go forward either without it.

That's an interesting idea from a document management point of view.

It unfortunately does not answer the question when to start the solution
work. I fear that it will be difficult to come up with a good answer.

Of course I see the value to identify the key assumptions/requirements
(as we, for example, have done during the BOF) to cut through the
solution space. I had gotten the impression that a number of the folks
in the group are already very much bought into their own solution
approach and a lot of discussion on requirements/use cases will not
necessarily change their mind. I hope I am wrong.

Ciao
Hannes


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From nobody Thu Mar 13 09:09:30 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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Hi Goeran,

you raise another difficult question that relates a bit to the type of
IoT devices have in mind. I fully agree with the challenge you
identified regarding symmetric vs. asymmetric key crypto. It will be
difficult to reach a consensus on that topic since most people in the
group are actually not building devices themselves and therefore just
use what fits their solution best.

The cost of transmission that you mention is also important but the
implication of just having fewer round-trips is a bit too simplistic
since a constrained resource server will obviously suffer a lot since he
has to listen for incoming connection attempts.

So, I fear that (while these are super important aspects) we will have a
hard time to make any useful decisions about them is two-fold:

 * We are not designing complete systems in the IETF and the energy
assumption relates to the overall system (rather than a single
protocol). Most of it is outside the IETF protocol design.

 * The processing capability obviously depends on the hardware and we
are not making any statement about hardware in the group. Looking at
Carsten's presentation from the BOF it also relates to cost, which is
again a very complicated topic since hardware cost is not the only cost
in product development.

The classes in the LWIG terminology document do not go into any level of
details regarding computational power and energy consumption. Only the
memory requirements are listed in more detail and they seem to be rather
hand-wavy.

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/13/2014 04:00 PM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
> Hi Hannes
>=20
> Thanks for bringing this up. Let me give some context.
>=20
> In the preparation for the BOF (and as was later shown in the BOF) it w=
as
> clear that there are strong opinions about the (in)feasibility of /publ=
ic
> key/ crypto in constrained devices. Some people state that =B3there wil=
l
> only be two public key operations in the lifetime of this device=B2,
> referring to the high cost for asymmetric crypto so that they are only
> used to establishing secret keys that are used thereafter. Yet other
> people state =B3the cost for public key crypto is negligable in today=B9=
s
> devices=B2=20
>=20
> Looking into the literature it is clear that public key crypto is in ma=
ny
> cases affordable, but also that it does not come for free. Moreover, wh=
en
> comparing e.g. with message transmission and reception in wireless
> embedded devices, you get another picture what may be expensive in
> security protocol execution from an energy consumption point of view.
> Section 3.2.2 discusses this in a symmetric crypto context.
>=20
> This draft was put together in a rush a few days before cutoff and
> contains mainly obvious things. As said, I=B9m happy to use this as a b=
asis
> for a Wiki or restart the discussion. What I would like to see document=
ed
> is the (non-obvious) cost comparisons  and trade-offs between e.g.
> round-trips and crypto operations, symmetric vs asymmetric operations e=
tc.
> to be able to refer to in future discussions when we need to assess the=

> feasibility of a particular security protocol in a constrained environm=
ent.
>=20
>=20
> G=F6ran
>=20
>=20
> On 13/03/14 02:09, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrot=
e:
>=20
>> Goeran raised a question about adding a milestone for a document that
>> captures assumptions and design criteria.
>>
>> He contributed an initial version of such a document with
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00
>>
>> What does the rest of the group think about that idea?
>>
>> Would you be willing to review such a document?
>> Would you be willing to contribute to such a document?
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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From nobody Thu Mar 13 09:11:16 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Authorization server: a constrained device?
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Hi Olaf,

thanks for sharing your views.

The discussions before the BOF happened in a rather small group (mostly
offline) and now we have a larger audience and so it seemed to be fair
to re-state the question again (particularly after reading Sam's email).

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/13/2014 04:27 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> writes:
>=20
>> reading through Sam's email and various comments during the BOF I was
>> wondering whether the group has a consensus to assume that the
>> authorization is not a constrained device.
>=20
>>From what I took from the discussions since the Berlin IETF that
> eventually led to the ACE BoF, I always had the impression that the
> Authorization Server is regarded as not constrained in non-trivial
> use-cases.
>=20
> Gruesse
> Olaf
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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If we want to publish a document as part of the group then we also need
to have a milestone for it.

You need to tell me whether you think it is useful to add such a
document as a deliverable to the charter or not and whether you are
willing to review/contribute.

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/13/2014 04:36 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> writes:
>=20
>> Goeran raised a question about adding a milestone for a document that
>> captures assumptions and design criteria.
>=20
> I think that this document would be useful to track assumptions and
> design considerations. If there was a milestone for this (is that reall=
y
> necessary?) than it should be very later, after finishing most of the
> protocol design.
>=20
> Gruesse
> Olaf
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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--=-=-=


Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
    > On 03/13/2014 03:37 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
    >>
    >> I propose that there be a use case Informational ID, which over time,
    >> will transform into a roadmap/architectural document.  It will not be
    >> published "prior" to the standards track documents, but since it will
    >> be referenced by them all, they won't go forward either without it.

    > That's an interesting idea from a document management point of view.

    > It unfortunately does not answer the question when to start the solution
    > work. I fear that it will be difficult to come up with a good answer.

Every piece of solution has to reference some part of problem space.

If the problem space (document) is incomplete, then that part/feature of the
solution has some problem with motivation.

This would seem to be the Agile approach: cycles.
When the cycle becomes empty, we are done.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =-




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On 13 Mar 2014, at 17:05, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> =
wrote:

> I fully agree with the challenge you
> identified regarding symmetric vs. asymmetric key crypto. It will be
> difficult to reach a consensus on that topic

I don=92t think that such a decision is possible or desirable.
We didn=92t do that for CoAP (which has security modes, and preferred =
cipher suites, for both shared-key and public-key), and we shouldn=92t =
try to do that here.

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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On 13 Mar 2014, at 16:45, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> =
wrote:

> It unfortunately does not answer the question when to start the =
solution
> work. I fear that it will be difficult to come up with a good answer.

This is a design problem, so you start solution work in parallel with =
understanding the feasible objectives.
(The solution space informs the objectives as much as the objectives =
inform the solutions.)

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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Hi Carsten,

while that's an interesting way to post pone the problem it introduces
interoperability problems.

Clients implementing one option who talk to resource servers
implementing different options.

Do you see the interop challenges there?

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/13/2014 05:37 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 13 Mar 2014, at 17:05, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>=
 wrote:
>=20
>> I fully agree with the challenge you
>> identified regarding symmetric vs. asymmetric key crypto. It will be
>> difficult to reach a consensus on that topic
>=20
> I don=92t think that such a decision is possible or desirable.
> We didn=92t do that for CoAP (which has security modes, and preferred c=
ipher suites, for both shared-key and public-key), and we shouldn=92t try=
 to do that here.
>=20
> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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I think that this approach is in-line with what Michael suggested.

Goeran (and others), is that OK for you as well?

The use cases/requirements/etc. document would then get roughly
published at the same time as the solution spec.

On 03/13/2014 05:41 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 13 Mar 2014, at 16:45, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>=
 wrote:
>=20
>> It unfortunately does not answer the question when to start the soluti=
on
>> work. I fear that it will be difficult to come up with a good answer.
>=20
> This is a design problem, so you start solution work in parallel with u=
nderstanding the feasible objectives.
> (The solution space informs the objectives as much as the objectives in=
form the solutions.)
>=20
> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
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From nobody Thu Mar 13 09:54:34 2014
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I think proxies should be discussed up front. I'm not a big fan of them, =
so discussing why we think we need them seems important.

My belief is that dual-protocol endpoints rather than gateways/proxies =
is what will be simplest and most secure.=20

But again, discussion will bring out what we mean by proxy and what the =
benefits are.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com

On 2014-03-12, at 6:30 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> =
wrote:

> Hi all,
>=20
> Goeran raised a question in the charter discussion about when to
> investigate suitability of the solution regarding proxies.
>=20
> With version 0.5 of the charter I suggested to explore the proxy =
issues*
> after a candidate solution had been selected.
>=20
> He suggested, however, to deal with proxies already during as part of
> the requirements/use case/design considerations phase.
>=20
> What would you like to do?
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> PS: We discussed various types of proxies on the list. Some proxies =
were
> protocol translation proxies that provided the ability to interface =
with
> other protocols (e.g., HTTP) and deployed infrastructure (some backend
> authentication/authorization infrastructure) and yet other proxies =
were
> part of the CoAP protocol.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Thu Mar 13 10:00:28 2014
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Thanks for your feedback, Phil.

Dual-protocol endpoints might be a bit challenging for some of the
devices that folks have in mind. CoAP was developed since there was the
believe HTTP stacks do not fit on some of these very constrained
devices. Telling these people now that they should now add HTTP to it
because of interworking with legacy infrastructure might make them jump
up-and-down.

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/13/2014 05:54 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
> I think proxies should be discussed up front. I'm not a big fan of them=
, so discussing why we think we need them seems important.
>=20
> My belief is that dual-protocol endpoints rather than gateways/proxies =
is what will be simplest and most secure.=20
>=20
> But again, discussion will bring out what we mean by proxy and what the=
 benefits are.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>=20
> On 2014-03-12, at 6:30 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net=
> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Goeran raised a question in the charter discussion about when to
>> investigate suitability of the solution regarding proxies.
>>
>> With version 0.5 of the charter I suggested to explore the proxy issue=
s*
>> after a candidate solution had been selected.
>>
>> He suggested, however, to deal with proxies already during as part of
>> the requirements/use case/design considerations phase.
>>
>> What would you like to do?
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> PS: We discussed various types of proxies on the list. Some proxies we=
re
>> protocol translation proxies that provided the ability to interface wi=
th
>> other protocols (e.g., HTTP) and deployed infrastructure (some backend=

>> authentication/authorization infrastructure) and yet other proxies wer=
e
>> part of the CoAP protocol.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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On 13 Mar 2014, at 17:45, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> =
wrote:

> Hi Carsten,
>=20
> while that's an interesting way to post pone the problem it introduces
> interoperability problems.

This doesn=92t postpone the problem, it simply acknowledges that it is =
not a problem because it can=92t be solved.

> Clients implementing one option who talk to resource servers
> implementing different options.
>=20
> Do you see the interop challenges there?

Starting from the Berlin model:

M------A
|     (|)
|     (|)
C------S

It is probably worth keeping the C-S protocol free of asymmetric crypto, =
if only for performance reasons.
The A-S protocols (both the direct one and the one tunneled through M =
and C) are intra-domain and can therefore more easily be chosen for the =
specific application, so it is easier to live with both a symmetric and =
an asymmetric variant being around and to be chosen from; this is also =
true for the C-M protocol.
The M-A protocols should allow for a much larger variety, based on what =
is in use in the specific application sector.

But again, let=92s generate those solutions first and evolve the =
objectives based on what is achievable, not the other way around.

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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Subject: Re: [Ace] When to deal with proxies?
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Agreed. When it is all constrained, the case is clear. But often there =
will be a mix. Some have pointed out that AS servers will likely be =
unconstrained.  My thought is that unconstrained endpoints will likely =
have to be dual protocol (TCP and UDP) based.

Some have commented that they think AS's would likely be unconstrained. =
Taking that thought forward: an AS would likely support both constrained =
and non-constrained clients allowing a non-constrained client to obtain =
a token to use against a constrained resource.  The reverse, a =
constrained client obtains a token to use against a dual-protocol =
resource. Or finally, a constrained client obtains a token to use with a =
constrained resource.

This is what we need to work through.  As soon as we introduce proxies, =
we get into MITM issues when a lot of current authorization approaches =
are assuming secure point-to-point communication.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com

On 2014-03-13, at 9:56 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> =
wrote:

> Thanks for your feedback, Phil.
>=20
> Dual-protocol endpoints might be a bit challenging for some of the
> devices that folks have in mind. CoAP was developed since there was =
the
> believe HTTP stacks do not fit on some of these very constrained
> devices. Telling these people now that they should now add HTTP to it
> because of interworking with legacy infrastructure might make them =
jump
> up-and-down.
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
>=20
> On 03/13/2014 05:54 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
>> I think proxies should be discussed up front. I'm not a big fan of =
them, so discussing why we think we need them seems important.
>>=20
>> My belief is that dual-protocol endpoints rather than =
gateways/proxies is what will be simplest and most secure.=20
>>=20
>> But again, discussion will bring out what we mean by proxy and what =
the benefits are.
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>> On 2014-03-12, at 6:30 PM, Hannes Tschofenig =
<hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi all,
>>>=20
>>> Goeran raised a question in the charter discussion about when to
>>> investigate suitability of the solution regarding proxies.
>>>=20
>>> With version 0.5 of the charter I suggested to explore the proxy =
issues*
>>> after a candidate solution had been selected.
>>>=20
>>> He suggested, however, to deal with proxies already during as part =
of
>>> the requirements/use case/design considerations phase.
>>>=20
>>> What would you like to do?
>>>=20
>>> Ciao
>>> Hannes
>>>=20
>>> PS: We discussed various types of proxies on the list. Some proxies =
were
>>> protocol translation proxies that provided the ability to interface =
with
>>> other protocols (e.g., HTTP) and deployed infrastructure (some =
backend
>>> authentication/authorization infrastructure) and yet other proxies =
were
>>> part of the CoAP protocol.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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On 13 Mar 2014, at 17:50, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> =
wrote:

> The use cases/requirements/etc. document would then get roughly
> published at the same time as the solution spec.

That is a good goal.

Recalling my experience as a co-chair of 6LoWPAN, we managed to get out =
a use cases (RFC 6568) and a requirements (RFC 6606) document only after =
the main work was done (RFC 4944, RFC 6282; only RFC 6775 came in even =
later).  Of course we had them around as drafts much of the time we were =
working on the solutions, but it was hard to sustain the energy to =
actually publish the informational documents in the end.  It helped that =
we had a short early =93problem statement, assumptions and goals=94 =
document out (RFC 4919), which solidified some of the terms that got =
used later, without trying to be the definitive requirements set.

I=92m with Margaret in that I=92d also=20

> rather see the use cases and requirements published as =
informationalRFCs.

We just have to be aware that it=92s not easy to keep up the energy on =
these.

(We also have to be wary of =93requirements engineering=94, i.e. =
manipulation of the requirements to favor one or the other solution.
Fortunately, we never tried to establish formal =93requirements=94 in =
6LoWPAN, so we circumvented this cliff.)

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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From: "Rahman, Akbar" <Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com>
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Hi Hannes,


> I think proxies should be discussed up front. I'm not a big fan of
them, so discussing why we think we need them seems important.

I agree with this point from Phil.  And it overlaps with the point that
I previously brought up regarding extensive support of proxies in the
current CoAP spec:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00360.html


Since neither Zach/Carsten (i.e. CoAP experts) have responded yet, I
would like to draw your attention to the following section of the CoAP
spec which specifically discusses CoAP Proxies and DTLS.  Please see
especially the 3rd paragraph which refers specifically to "access
control considerations":

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2




Best Regards,

Akbar


-----Original Message-----
From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:56 PM
To: Phil Hunt
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] When to deal with proxies?

Thanks for your feedback, Phil.

Dual-protocol endpoints might be a bit challenging for some of the
devices that folks have in mind. CoAP was developed since there was the
believe HTTP stacks do not fit on some of these very constrained
devices. Telling these people now that they should now add HTTP to it
because of interworking with legacy infrastructure might make them jump
up-and-down.

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/13/2014 05:54 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
> I think proxies should be discussed up front. I'm not a big fan of
them, so discussing why we think we need them seems important.
>=20
> My belief is that dual-protocol endpoints rather than gateways/proxies
is what will be simplest and most secure.=20
>=20
> But again, discussion will bring out what we mean by proxy and what
the benefits are.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>=20
> On 2014-03-12, at 6:30 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
<hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Goeran raised a question in the charter discussion about when to=20
>> investigate suitability of the solution regarding proxies.
>>
>> With version 0.5 of the charter I suggested to explore the proxy=20
>> issues* after a candidate solution had been selected.
>>
>> He suggested, however, to deal with proxies already during as part of

>> the requirements/use case/design considerations phase.
>>
>> What would you like to do?
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> PS: We discussed various types of proxies on the list. Some proxies=20
>> were protocol translation proxies that provided the ability to=20
>> interface with other protocols (e.g., HTTP) and deployed=20
>> infrastructure (some backend authentication/authorization=20
>> infrastructure) and yet other proxies were part of the CoAP protocol.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Authorization server: a constrained device?
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From nobody Fri Mar 14 00:10:45 2014
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To: "Rahman, Akbar" <Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com>,  Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] When to deal with proxies?
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Very good point since I am wondering now myself how a CoAP client
authorizes the server when there is a CoAP proxy along the way.

When I read through the security consideration section of the CoAP spec
it just said that you compare the identifier used for the look-up with
the one found in the certificate but unless the CoAP client knew about
the proxy up-front this check will fail. If the CoAP client knew about
the proxy then, in DTLS terms, it is actually treating the proxy as the
server. Needless to say that this would be useless for the work we are
doing in this group since the information would just be with the wrong
party.

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/13/2014 08:57 PM, Rahman, Akbar wrote:
> Hi Hannes,
>=20
>=20
>> I think proxies should be discussed up front. I'm not a big fan of
> them, so discussing why we think we need them seems important.
>=20
> I agree with this point from Phil.  And it overlaps with the point that=

> I previously brought up regarding extensive support of proxies in the
> current CoAP spec:
>=20
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00360.html
>=20
>=20
> Since neither Zach/Carsten (i.e. CoAP experts) have responded yet, I
> would like to draw your attention to the following section of the CoAP
> spec which specifically discusses CoAP Proxies and DTLS.  Please see
> especially the 3rd paragraph which refers specifically to "access
> control considerations":
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-18#section-11.2
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Best Regards,
>=20
> Akbar
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:56 PM
> To: Phil Hunt
> Cc: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] When to deal with proxies?
>=20
> Thanks for your feedback, Phil.
>=20
> Dual-protocol endpoints might be a bit challenging for some of the
> devices that folks have in mind. CoAP was developed since there was the=

> believe HTTP stacks do not fit on some of these very constrained
> devices. Telling these people now that they should now add HTTP to it
> because of interworking with legacy infrastructure might make them jump=

> up-and-down.
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
>=20
> On 03/13/2014 05:54 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
>> I think proxies should be discussed up front. I'm not a big fan of
> them, so discussing why we think we need them seems important.
>>
>> My belief is that dual-protocol endpoints rather than gateways/proxies=

> is what will be simplest and most secure.=20
>>
>> But again, discussion will bring out what we mean by proxy and what
> the benefits are.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On 2014-03-12, at 6:30 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Goeran raised a question in the charter discussion about when to=20
>>> investigate suitability of the solution regarding proxies.
>>>
>>> With version 0.5 of the charter I suggested to explore the proxy=20
>>> issues* after a candidate solution had been selected.
>>>
>>> He suggested, however, to deal with proxies already during as part of=

>=20
>>> the requirements/use case/design considerations phase.
>>>
>>> What would you like to do?
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>> Hannes
>>>
>>> PS: We discussed various types of proxies on the list. Some proxies=20
>>> were protocol translation proxies that provided the ability to=20
>>> interface with other protocols (e.g., HTTP) and deployed=20
>>> infrastructure (some backend authentication/authorization=20
>>> infrastructure) and yet other proxies were part of the CoAP protocol.=

>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Authorization server: a constrained device?
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There is still a lot of benefit since it allows to centrally manage
authorization, which is from a usability point of view a big plus.
Today, with the pairing approach you need to introduce each device to
any other device (leading to the handshake problem with n(n-1)/2
combinations).

Having said that I am fine with just assuming that the authorization
server is not constrained.

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/14/2014 07:43 AM, Likepeng wrote:
> If Authorization Server is also constrained, there is no much benefit t=
o have it in the architecture.
>=20
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>=20
>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Han=
nes Tschofenig
>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA3=D4=C214=C8=D5 0:08
>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Olaf Bergmann
>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: ace@ietf.org
>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Ace] Authorization server: a constrained device?
>>
>> Hi Olaf,
>>
>> thanks for sharing your views.
>>
>> The discussions before the BOF happened in a rather small group (mostl=
y
>> offline) and now we have a larger audience and so it seemed to be fair=
 to
>> re-state the question again (particularly after reading Sam's email).
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>> On 03/13/2014 04:27 PM, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
>>> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> reading through Sam's email and various comments during the BOF I wa=
s
>>>> wondering whether the group has a consensus to assume that the
>>>> authorization is not a constrained device.
>>>
>>> >From what I took from the discussions since the Berlin IETF that
>>> eventually led to the ACE BoF, I always had the impression that the
>>> Authorization Server is regarded as not constrained in non-trivial
>>> use-cases.
>>>
>>> Gruesse
>>> Olaf
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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From: =?windows-1254?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter - connectivity assumptions
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 08:30:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter - connectivity assumptions
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Hi Hannes

Good questions.=20

A general comment: I think this is largely a question of mindset. If we
assume constant connectivity for all devices at no cost, we will come up
with a different solution than if we assume that there is a non-negligable
cost. (With =93cost=94 including: fees to connectivity provider, configurat=
ion
in network and/or device to enable connectivity, performance aspects of
constrained devices such as battery life time etc.) In some applications
it may be feasible to make a trade off between e.g. immediate revocation
and cost.

More inline.


On 12/03/14 22:08, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

>Hi Goeran,
>
>thanks for moving this difficult point forward.
>
>Comments inline.
>
>
>On 03/11/2014 10:26 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>>=20
>> During the BOF it was requested to be more specific about the
>>connectivity
>> assumptions of the various nodes, more specifically whether it could be
>> assumed that the RS or the Client could connect to the AS. The
>>discussion
>> was very focused on the particular use case presented at the BOF. Here
>>are
>> some starting points for further discussion.
>>=20
>> 1. The discussion relates to Client or RS connectivity to the AS for
>> obtaining relevant authorization information. If valid authorization
>>info
>> is already available to the RS, it should not be necessary to connect to
>> the AS.=20
>
>Yes, if the authorization information + keying material is already
>cached then it does not need to be retrieved again.
>
>There is, however, a trade-off when it comes to revocation: the longer
>you are able to cache the more difficult it will be to quickly revoke.

Agree=20

>
>>=20
>> 2. It was acknowledged that in the particular use case (container
>> transport at sea) Internet connectivity could not be assumed. Even if
>>this
>> hadn=B9t been the case, e.g. truck/train transport or other use case, we
>> should not take for granted that billions of devices are always
>>connected
>> just because it is theoretically possible. Internet connectivity has a
>> cost and low cost is one of the reasons why constrained devices are at
>>all
>> used. There may be some need for configuration needed to secure
>> connectivity, which may be missing if the environment changes as was
>> illustrated by the use case. Etc. . With this in mind, we should assume
>> that for certain use cases the constrained Client or RS may be
>> disconnected from the Internet for periods of time.
>
>What about having connectivity to an authorization server that is on
>board the ship? To translate this to the home networking case you it is
>one thing to assume connectivity to some server on the Internet and a
>different aspect to assume connectivity to an authorization in the
>user's home network.

Yes, that is the smartphone / home server case I mention below. Both
options (cloud AS or local AS) are possible. The case of local AS
temporarily without Internet connectivity would be able to serve RS with
missing access policies, but if the Resource Owner need to update its
policies, the local AS would need Internet connectivity (unless the RO is
also =93on board=94).=20

I think we should allow different service providers to decide on different
architectures to address their respective need for prompt access,
immediate revocation etc.

>
>Needless to say with your assumption is that if you do not have Internet
>connectivity then some value of Internet connected devices (e.g., remote
>monitoring, remote configuration) goes away.

Agree.

>
>>=20
>> 3. Even if the AS is not a constrained device it may be disconnected
>>from
>> time to other. For some use cases, AS functionality may be implemented
>>in
>> devices which are not always available, e.g. the Resource Owner=B9s
>> smartphone, home server or some other device which may be occasionally
>> switched off or disconnected.
>
>Do we accept the side effect that the solution will not work in some of
>those cases? If there is no information cached at client<->RS then
>without connectivity to the AS the entire mechanism will not work.

Again, there are trade-offs to make. We could allow this, if it can be
made clear what the consequence is. Alternatively we could assume there
must be a local AS available, which however may not always be connected to
the Internet.

>
>
>> In general we should assume that Client and RS may have intermittent
>> connectivity with the AS, and in particular that it cannot  be
>>guaranteed
>> that there is connectivity to the AS at the time of the access request.
>
>You are saying that with some requests you assume there is connectivity
>and with other requests there isn't. That does not sound right to me.

Let me say it in fewer words:
At the time of the C->RS access request it cannot be guaranteed that C or
RS can access AS. (If we allow this, see above.)

>
>The client / RS needs to obtain authorization information and keying
>material from the AS. They also need to peridically check the revocation
>status. They are also likely to require time information.
>This will not work without some level of connectivity.

Yes, time was brought up in the BOF. Let=92s make that a separate thread.

G=F6ran

>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>>=20
>>=20
>> G=F6ran
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Scope of the ACE Charter
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Hi Hannes,

Comments inline.

Robert

On 11/03/2014 7:42 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Goeran, Robert,
>
> Here is the challenge (based on my experience from OAuth):
>
> 1) You need to tie the application layer security to the channel
> security since otherwise you introduce attacks.
<RCC>Yes, if you are relying on the security properties of the channel.=20
A proxy is a MITM so I would imagine in that case, that reliance cannot=20
be assumed therefore application layer/object security would need to=20
provide its own end-to-end protection</RCC>
>
> 2) You need to tie the application layer security to the actual request=
=2E
> Doing protocol translation in-between makes this somewhat challenging.
<RCC>Agreed; I would not expect translation to occur</RCC>
>
> My fear is that while it sounds like a nice idea to do this protocol
> translation it makes the entire security story brittle and more complex=
=2E
>
> I am fine with investigating these proxy cases but we shouldn't be
> astonished if they do not work in the way we had hoped.
<RCC>
Agreed. My understanding of G=F6ran's concept of "object security" is tha=
t=20
there is no translation at the application layer. This certainly=20
complicates the model, as there are now layers within layers but I have=20
come across this situation a number of times and has to find a solution=20
for it.

Maybe it is not necessary to consider these cases in detail from the=20
get-go but simply to bear them in mind when it comes to developing=20
solutions.
</RCC>
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> PS: The term 'trusted' and 'untrusted' intermediary is somewhat fuzzy.
> As I stated earlier this year on this mailing list, you have to indicat=
e
> WHO trust WHOM for WHAT.
>
> On 03/11/2014 09:06 PM, Robert Cragie wrote:
>> My view is generally that interface II will typically be CoAP/DTLS but=

>> could easily be HTTP/TLS and from the point of view of provisioning
>> credentials and access right information, I can't see there would be a=

>> huge difference.
>>
>> I am ambivalent regarding I and III from a
>> transfer/transaction/transport protocol point of view but I echo G=F6r=
an's
>> view on considering object security to achieve end-to-end security
>> through proxies, plus it would of course still work if directly
>> connected. An alternative approach which could be considered for proxi=
es
>> is the ability to tunnel through proxies. This might be useful for
>> reusing existing auth/z protocols through proxies.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 10/03/2014 9:00 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>>> Hi Michael
>>>
>>> Just on untrusted intermediaries:
>>>
>>> Since the AS needs to protect certain information end-to-end =8B  e.g=
=2E
>>> authorisation information to be consumed by the RS, key management
>>> information to be consumed by the Client =8B hop-by-hop transport lay=
er
>>> security would not be sufficient. This case could be handled with obj=
ect
>>> secure information (some sort of ticket/access token) integrity prote=
cted
>>> or encrypted on application layer. As the secure object can't be chan=
ged
>>> by an intermediary, it need to be formatted for transfer to the inten=
ded
>>> consumer already by the AS, which in particular may need to take into=

>>> account a constrained environment.
>>>
>>>
>>> G=F6ran
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/03/14 16:38, "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote=
:
>>>
>>>> This is what I understand about the concern about scope.
>>>> (Gotta love emacs picture-mode... outlook users will need a fixed fo=
nt)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                                            +---------------+
>>>>                                            | Authorization |
>>>>               +------------------+-------->|  Server       |
>>>>               |        (I)      /          +---------------+
>>>>               |       authz    /                 ^
>>>>               |               /                  |
>>>>            /--------\        /                   |
>>>>      (IV)  | oauth  |       /                    | III
>>>>            |  proxy |      /                     | authz
>>>>            \--------/     /                      |
>>>>               |----------/                       |
>>>>               v                                  v
>>>>          +-----------+         (access)    +-----+-----+
>>>>          |           |     /------\  (II)  | Resource  |
>>>>          |   Client  | <...|https/|.......>| Server    |
>>>>          +-----------+     | coap |        +-----------+
>>>>                            | dtls |
>>>>                            |proxy | (V)
>>>>                            \------/
>>>>
>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>
>>>> IV - is some kind of translator that can take/process OAUTH2 (or som=
e
>>>>       other system!) requests into our authorization protocol.  It m=
ight
>>>>       be that teaching the authorization server itself to speak OAUT=
H2
>>>>       is really the only answer, and that would be fine with me.
>>>>
>>>> V - this is an HTTPS(with OAUTH2 token) to COAP/DTLS (with ACE token=
)
>>>> proxy.
>>>>
>>>> It would be nice if (V) did not have to have god/superuser access to=
 the
>>>> authorization server. I.e. it would be nice if that proxy could be
>>>> untrusted
>>>> by both the client and the authorization server.
>>>>
>>>> Does this diagram match what others have been asking about?
>>>> (I have intentionally left out the SEP2.0 stuff out of this diagram,=

>>>> as I
>>>> have no idea what it uses for authorization)
>>>>
>>>> --=20
>>>> Michael Richardson
>>>> -on the road-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>



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From: =?windows-1254?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:02:38 +0000
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Hi Hannes

More good comments.

There are two things here:

1. One is to describe how properties of a security protocol impact the
"performance=94 of constrained devices in scope of this work, and what trad=
e
offs are possible.

2. The other is to list and motivate assumptions and design choices made
in the work to select/profile the security protocol to be made by this
group.

The motivations in 2. should be based on the understanding to the
properties in 1. Whether we need to actually document 1. or not depend on
if we assume that people who will review 2 have this knowledge.


While we cannot optimise the protocol for each given system, I claim that
there is some basic knowledge about constrained devices which may speak
for/against certain protocol candidates.

Maybe we should have tutorials on this too?

I think Klaus=92 draft on practical issues with DTLS, although not speaking
about security protocols in general, is a good starting point:
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hartke-dice-practical-issues-00.txt


More comments inline

On 13/03/14 17:05, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

>Hi Goeran,
>
>you raise another difficult question that relates a bit to the type of
>IoT devices have in mind. I fully agree with the challenge you
>identified regarding symmetric vs. asymmetric key crypto. It will be
>difficult to reach a consensus on that topic since most people in the
>group are actually not building devices themselves and therefore just
>use what fits their solution best.
>
>The cost of transmission that you mention is also important but the
>implication of just having fewer round-trips is a bit too simplistic
>since a constrained resource server will obviously suffer a lot since he
>has to listen for incoming connection attempts.

Yes, round trips is too simplistic, e.g. size of messages has a large
impact too considering fragmentation. Even =93listening" is too simplistic,
since there are various aspects of discontinuous reception, low-power
listening etc. So what can we say? There is expertise on specific
platforms and although there may be differences, my expectation is that
there is some common features like e.g. the cost for communication vs
symmetric crypto in a security protocol.

G=F6ran


>
>So, I fear that (while these are super important aspects) we will have a
>hard time to make any useful decisions about them is two-fold:
>
> * We are not designing complete systems in the IETF and the energy
>assumption relates to the overall system (rather than a single
>protocol). Most of it is outside the IETF protocol design.
>
> * The processing capability obviously depends on the hardware and we
>are not making any statement about hardware in the group. Looking at
>Carsten's presentation from the BOF it also relates to cost, which is
>again a very complicated topic since hardware cost is not the only cost
>in product development.
>
>The classes in the LWIG terminology document do not go into any level of
>details regarding computational power and energy consumption. Only the
>memory requirements are listed in more detail and they seem to be rather
>hand-wavy.
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>
>On 03/13/2014 04:00 PM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>> Hi Hannes
>>=20
>> Thanks for bringing this up. Let me give some context.
>>=20
>> In the preparation for the BOF (and as was later shown in the BOF) it
>>was
>> clear that there are strong opinions about the (in)feasibility of
>>/public
>> key/ crypto in constrained devices. Some people state that =B3there will
>> only be two public key operations in the lifetime of this device=B2,
>> referring to the high cost for asymmetric crypto so that they are only
>> used to establishing secret keys that are used thereafter. Yet other
>> people state =B3the cost for public key crypto is negligable in today=B9=
s
>> devices=B2=20
>>=20
>> Looking into the literature it is clear that public key crypto is in
>>many
>> cases affordable, but also that it does not come for free. Moreover,
>>when
>> comparing e.g. with message transmission and reception in wireless
>> embedded devices, you get another picture what may be expensive in
>> security protocol execution from an energy consumption point of view.
>> Section 3.2.2 discusses this in a symmetric crypto context.
>>=20
>> This draft was put together in a rush a few days before cutoff and
>> contains mainly obvious things. As said, I=B9m happy to use this as a
>>basis
>> for a Wiki or restart the discussion. What I would like to see
>>documented
>> is the (non-obvious) cost comparisons  and trade-offs between e.g.
>> round-trips and crypto operations, symmetric vs asymmetric operations
>>etc.
>> to be able to refer to in future discussions when we need to assess the
>> feasibility of a particular security protocol in a constrained
>>environment.
>>=20
>>=20
>> G=F6ran
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 13/03/14 02:09, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
>>wrote:
>>=20
>>> Goeran raised a question about adding a milestone for a document that
>>> captures assumptions and design criteria.
>>>
>>> He contributed an initial version of such a document with
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-design-considerations-00
>>>
>>> What does the rest of the group think about that idea?
>>>
>>> Would you be willing to review such a document?
>>> Would you be willing to contribute to such a document?
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>> Hannes
>>>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>


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In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I think the ACE effort =
should consider situations where the Authorization Server is a =
constrained node.  I wrote the following answer, and I thought it might =
be useful to share it here:

> I think that depends on what you mean by "constrained".  I don't think =
an authorization server needs to have a user input device, necessarily=85 =
 It could be embedded in a home gateway, or a building control system or =
an irrigation controller.  However, i don't think that you will want to =
have a battery-operated, intermittently connected authorization server, =
because it might not be available when the client and server want to =
talk to one another.
>=20
> If you assume that a "constrained" node can be =
always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold =
authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes, and =
has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every connection that =
those nodes want to make to each other or to the outside=85 Well, if you =
assume that a constrained node can do those things, the problem becomes =
a lot easier.  :-)
>=20
> I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk of those =
operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is storing =
the auth information and doing most of the authorization and =
authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.
>=20
> So, no, I don't think of the authorization server as being a =
constrained node in the same sense as battery-operated sensors, =
actuators, etc.

Margaret=

--Apple-Mail=_3BDFC2F4-41FE-4CDE-9015-D5E65263C9EF
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charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div><div>In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I =
think the ACE effort should consider situations where the Authorization =
Server is a constrained node. &nbsp;I wrote the following answer, and I =
thought it might be useful to share it =
here:</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">I think that depends on what you mean =
by "constrained". &nbsp;I don't think an authorization server needs to =
have a user input device, necessarily=85 &nbsp;It could be embedded in a =
home gateway, or a building control system or an irrigation controller. =
&nbsp;However, i don't think that you will want to have a =
battery-operated, intermittently connected authorization server, because =
it might not be available when the client and server want to talk to one =
another.</span><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
monospace; ">If you assume that a "constrained" node can be =
always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold =
authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes, and =
has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every connection that =
those nodes want to make to each other or to the outside=85 Well, if you =
assume that a constrained node can do those things, the problem becomes =
a lot easier. &nbsp;:-)</span><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
monospace; ">I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk =
of those operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is =
storing the auth information and doing most of the authorization and =
authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; =
"><span style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">So, no, I don't think of the =
authorization server as being a constrained node in the same sense as =
battery-operated sensors, actuators, =
etc.</span></blockquote><br></div><div>Margaret</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_3BDFC2F4-41FE-4CDE-9015-D5E65263C9EF--


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From: Pat Kinney <pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Constrained Authorization Server?
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--Apple-Mail=_92FE66B0-3C06-4D51-A148-2C16BD11680E
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I agree with Margaret's analysis with one exception, what about an =
emergency situation where mains power has been lost?  A network of =
battery-powered devices could be providing a critical service, so the =
Authorization Server might be on a short-lived UPS.  In this case it =
could be considered "constrained".  Given this, is it reasonable to =
expect the network to continue operating without the authorization =
server?  I.E. in an established network can the Authorization Server be =
intermittent?

Pat

Pat Kinney
Kinney Consulting LLC
IEEE 802.15 WG vice chair, TG chair
ISA100.11a WG chair
O: +1.847.960.3715
pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com


On Mar 14, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com> =
wrote:


In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I think the ACE effort =
should consider situations where the Authorization Server is a =
constrained node.  I wrote the following answer, and I thought it might =
be useful to share it here:

> I think that depends on what you mean by "constrained".  I don't think =
an authorization server needs to have a user input device, necessarily=85 =
 It could be embedded in a home gateway, or a building control system or =
an irrigation controller.  However, i don't think that you will want to =
have a battery-operated, intermittently connected authorization server, =
because it might not be available when the client and server want to =
talk to one another.
>=20
> If you assume that a "constrained" node can be =
always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold =
authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes, and =
has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every connection that =
those nodes want to make to each other or to the outside=85 Well, if you =
assume that a constrained node can do those things, the problem becomes =
a lot easier.  :-)
>=20
> I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk of those =
operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is storing =
the auth information and doing most of the authorization and =
authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.
>=20
> So, no, I don't think of the authorization server as being a =
constrained node in the same sense as battery-operated sensors, =
actuators, etc.

Margaret
_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--Apple-Mail=_92FE66B0-3C06-4D51-A148-2C16BD11680E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">I =
agree with Margaret's analysis with one exception, what about an =
emergency situation where mains power has been lost? &nbsp;A network of =
battery-powered devices could be providing a critical service, so the =
Authorization Server might be on a short-lived UPS. &nbsp;In this case =
it could be considered "constrained". &nbsp;Given this, is it reasonable =
to expect the network to continue operating without the authorization =
server? &nbsp;I.E. in an established network can the Authorization =
Server be intermittent?<div><br></div><div>Pat</div><div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;  "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica;  font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica;  font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica;  font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; "><div>Pat Kinney</div><div><b><i>Kinney =
Consulting LLC</i></b></div><div>IEEE 802.15 WG vice chair, TG =
chair</div><div>ISA100.11a WG chair</div><div>O: =
+1.847.960.3715</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration: none; =
">pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com</a></div></span></div></div><div><br>=
</div></div></span></div></span></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span></div><div><div>On Mar 14, =
2014, at 7:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:margaretw42@gmail.com">margaretw42@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div><div>In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I =
think the ACE effort should consider situations where the Authorization =
Server is a constrained node. &nbsp;I wrote the following answer, and I =
thought it might be useful to share it =
here:</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">I think that depends on what you mean =
by "constrained". &nbsp;I don't think an authorization server needs to =
have a user input device, necessarily=85 &nbsp;It could be embedded in a =
home gateway, or a building control system or an irrigation controller. =
&nbsp;However, i don't think that you will want to have a =
battery-operated, intermittently connected authorization server, because =
it might not be available when the client and server want to talk to one =
another.</span><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
monospace; ">If you assume that a "constrained" node can be =
always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold =
authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes, and =
has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every connection that =
those nodes want to make to each other or to the outside=85 Well, if you =
assume that a constrained node can do those things, the problem becomes =
a lot easier. &nbsp;:-)</span><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
monospace; ">I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk =
of those operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is =
storing the auth information and doing most of the authorization and =
authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; =
"><span style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">So, no, I don't think of the =
authorization server as being a constrained node in the same sense as =
battery-operated sensors, actuators, =
etc.</span></blockquote><br></div><div>Margaret</div></div>_______________=
________________________________<br>Ace mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/ace<br></div></div><br></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_92FE66B0-3C06-4D51-A148-2C16BD11680E--


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From: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Ace] Wi-Fi Systems on a Chip
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Just so that people who haven't working in the low-end embedded space =
understand the sort of limitations that a low-end, low-power wi-fi =
system might have, I thought it might be useful for folks to see the =
specs of a few common SoCs (Systems on a Chip) and/or modules that are =
available today. =20

http://www.gainspan.com/gs1011soc1
=
http://www.semiconductorstore.com/pages/asp/DownloadDirect.asp?sid=3D13947=
77188416
=
http://www.embeddedworks.net/wlan308.html?gclid=3DCOeprveLkr0CFYt9Ogod6ncA=
ug

[Note: in high volumes, these chips/modules might cost 10-20% of the =
low-volume prices indicated.]

I have no interest at all in these companies -- I'm not even using any =
of their products at the moment.  I just compiled this list from a quick =
web search for "low-power wi-fi SoC".  This doesn't represent a full =
survey of the market by any means -- these are just a few examples to =
give people an idea of the constraints we might be dealing with in a =
sensor, actuator or other battery-operated device.

Margaret



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To: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Wi-Fi Systems on a Chip
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Corresponding info for IEEE802.15.4:

=
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=3DMC13224V&=
fsrch=3D1

=
http://store.redwirellc.com/collections/frontpage/products/m12-mc13224v-6l=
owpan-module

I'm working with a team at Purdue to implement a ZigBee-IP stack on an =
earlier, prototyping version of the 6LowPAN module.

- Ralph

PS Following up on Cartsen's slide from his WG presentation, if you =
added 30MB of disk (dual RK05 and a 3rd party fixed disk) and doubled =
the RAM, it would look pretty much like a PDP 11-34 running Sixth =
Edition UNIX.  The key is doubling the RAM.  We're finding it a little =
tough to wedge a full Z-IP stack into the 96KB of RAM on the mc13224v.  =
It can be done, as the Z-IP interop and cert tests have shown...

On Mar 14, 2014, at 9:11 AM 3/14/14, Margaret Wasserman =
<margaretw42@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
> Just so that people who haven't working in the low-end embedded space =
understand the sort of limitations that a low-end, low-power wi-fi =
system might have, I thought it might be useful for folks to see the =
specs of a few common SoCs (Systems on a Chip) and/or modules that are =
available today. =20
>=20
> http://www.gainspan.com/gs1011soc1
> =
http://www.semiconductorstore.com/pages/asp/DownloadDirect.asp?sid=3D13947=
77188416
> =
http://www.embeddedworks.net/wlan308.html?gclid=3DCOeprveLkr0CFYt9Ogod6ncA=
ug
>=20
> [Note: in high volumes, these chips/modules might cost 10-20% of the =
low-volume prices indicated.]
>=20
> I have no interest at all in these companies -- I'm not even using any =
of their products at the moment.  I just compiled this list from a quick =
web search for "low-power wi-fi SoC".  This doesn't represent a full =
survey of the market by any means -- these are just a few examples to =
give people an idea of the constraints we might be dealing with in a =
sensor, actuator or other battery-operated device.
>=20
> Margaret
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:25:54 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Constrained Authorization Server?
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Hi Pat,

Depending on what security mechanisms we use, and how the applications =
are written, it is possible that existing associations between the =
battery operated nodes could survive as long as the session keys (or =
whatever temporary credentials they are using for ongoing communication) =
remain valid.  The nodes would not be able to establish a new =
authenticated session without an Authentication Server, and no new nodes =
could usefully join the network (since they couldn't establish secure =
communication with any other nodes), but ongoing associations would =
survive, perhaps for quite a long time (depending on the key lifetimes). =
 Would that be sufficient for the case described below?

Of course, many systems that are truly critical will be plugged into a =
UPS that is sufficient to power the system until an emergency generator =
can come online. =20

Margaret

On Mar 14, 2014, at 9:05 AM, Pat Kinney =
<pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com> wrote:

> I agree with Margaret's analysis with one exception, what about an =
emergency situation where mains power has been lost?  A network of =
battery-powered devices could be providing a critical service, so the =
Authorization Server might be on a short-lived UPS.  In this case it =
could be considered "constrained".  Given this, is it reasonable to =
expect the network to continue operating without the authorization =
server?  I.E. in an established network can the Authorization Server be =
intermittent?
>=20
> Pat
>=20
> Pat Kinney
> Kinney Consulting LLC
> IEEE 802.15 WG vice chair, TG chair
> ISA100.11a WG chair
> O: +1.847.960.3715
> pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com
>=20
>=20
> On Mar 14, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman =
<margaretw42@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I think the ACE effort =
should consider situations where the Authorization Server is a =
constrained node.  I wrote the following answer, and I thought it might =
be useful to share it here:
>=20
>> I think that depends on what you mean by "constrained".  I don't =
think an authorization server needs to have a user input device, =
necessarily=85  It could be embedded in a home gateway, or a building =
control system or an irrigation controller.  However, i don't think that =
you will want to have a battery-operated, intermittently connected =
authorization server, because it might not be available when the client =
and server want to talk to one another.
>>=20
>> If you assume that a "constrained" node can be =
always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold =
authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes, and =
has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every connection that =
those nodes want to make to each other or to the outside=85 Well, if you =
assume that a constrained node can do those things, the problem becomes =
a lot easier.  :-)
>>=20
>> I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk of those =
operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is storing =
the auth information and doing most of the authorization and =
authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.
>>=20
>> So, no, I don't think of the authorization server as being a =
constrained node in the same sense as battery-operated sensors, =
actuators, etc.
>=20
> Margaret
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--Apple-Mail=_42CD28D0-4948-471E-84BD-E410D5BC9ED8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div>Hi Pat,<div><br></div><div>Depending on what security =
mechanisms we use, and how the applications are written, it is possible =
that existing associations between the battery operated nodes could =
survive as long as the session keys (or whatever temporary credentials =
they are using for ongoing communication) remain valid. &nbsp;The nodes =
would not be able to establish a new authenticated session without an =
Authentication Server, and no new nodes could usefully join the network =
(since they couldn't establish secure communication with any other =
nodes), but ongoing associations would survive, perhaps for quite a long =
time (depending on the key lifetimes). &nbsp;Would that be sufficient =
for the case described below?</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, many =
systems that are truly critical will be plugged into a UPS that is =
sufficient to power the system until an emergency generator can come =
online. =
&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Margaret</div><div><br></div><div><div><di=
v>On Mar 14, 2014, at 9:05 AM, Pat Kinney &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com">pat.kinney@kinneyconsul=
tingllc.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">I =
agree with Margaret's analysis with one exception, what about an =
emergency situation where mains power has been lost? &nbsp;A network of =
battery-powered devices could be providing a critical service, so the =
Authorization Server might be on a short-lived UPS. &nbsp;In this case =
it could be considered "constrained". &nbsp;Given this, is it reasonable =
to expect the network to continue operating without the authorization =
server? &nbsp;I.E. in an established network can the Authorization =
Server be intermittent?<div><br></div><div>Pat</div><div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px; "><div>Pat =
Kinney</div><div><b><i>Kinney Consulting LLC</i></b></div><div>IEEE =
802.15 WG vice chair, TG chair</div><div>ISA100.11a WG =
chair</div><div>O: +1.847.960.3715</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration: none; =
">pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com</a></div></span></div></div><div><br>=
</div></div></span></div></span></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span></div><div><div>On Mar 14, =
2014, at 7:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:margaretw42@gmail.com">margaretw42@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div><div>In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I =
think the ACE effort should consider situations where the Authorization =
Server is a constrained node. &nbsp;I wrote the following answer, and I =
thought it might be useful to share it =
here:</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">I think that depends on what you mean =
by "constrained". &nbsp;I don't think an authorization server needs to =
have a user input device, necessarily=85 &nbsp;It could be embedded in a =
home gateway, or a building control system or an irrigation controller. =
&nbsp;However, i don't think that you will want to have a =
battery-operated, intermittently connected authorization server, because =
it might not be available when the client and server want to talk to one =
another.</span><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
monospace; ">If you assume that a "constrained" node can be =
always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold =
authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes, and =
has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every connection that =
those nodes want to make to each other or to the outside=85 Well, if you =
assume that a constrained node can do those things, the problem becomes =
a lot easier. &nbsp;:-)</span><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
monospace; ">I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk =
of those operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is =
storing the auth information and doing most of the authorization and =
authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; =
"><span style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">So, no, I don't think of the =
authorization server as being a constrained node in the same sense as =
battery-operated sensors, actuators, =
etc.</span></blockquote><br></div><div>Margaret</div></div>_______________=
________________________________<br>Ace mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ace</a><br></div></div><br></div></div>____________________=
___________________________<br>Ace mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/ace<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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On 14 Mar 2014, at 14:24, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> We're finding it a little tough to wedge a full Z-IP stack into the =
96KB of RAM on the mc13224v.=20

It may be worth pointing out that the MC13224V is a bit unusual due to =
its serial flash architecture:
At boot time, the program code is copied from the serial flash to the =
RAM, which is shared by both code and data. =20

This differs sharply from most other SoCs in this space, which can =
execute right out of Flash, but only have 8-16 KiB (or 32 KiB if you are =
very lucky) RAM.

That=92s why the LWIG terminology class table gives separate numbers for =
RAM and Code; on the MC13224V you could theoretically use 64 KiB for =
state data and 32 KiB for code, if that were useful in any way.  (Hey, =
you could even use an overlay linker, if someone here remembers what =
that is =97 the serial Flash is 128 KiB and WKdm style compression works =
reasonably well=85)

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Wi-Fi Systems on a Chip
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On Mar 14, 2014, at 9:40 AM 3/14/14, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> =
wrote:

> On 14 Mar 2014, at 14:24, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> We're finding it a little tough to wedge a full Z-IP stack into the =
96KB of RAM on the mc13224v.=20
>=20
> It may be worth pointing out that the MC13224V is a bit unusual due to =
its serial flash architecture:
> At boot time, the program code is copied from the serial flash to the =
RAM, which is shared by both code and data. =20

Right - to be precise, I should have described the MC13224V as having =
96KB of program+data space.
>=20
>=20
> This differs sharply from most other SoCs in this space, which can =
execute right out of Flash, but only have 8-16 KiB (or 32 KiB if you are =
very lucky) RAM.

Even so, the 96KB is in the ballpark of the program+data space available =
on other SoCs.  And 8-16KB of data space can be limiting...
>=20
> That=92s why the LWIG terminology class table gives separate numbers =
for RAM and Code; on the MC13224V you could theoretically use 64 KiB for =
state data and 32 KiB for code, if that were useful in any way.  (Hey, =
you could even use an overlay linker, if someone here remembers what =
that is =97 the serial Flash is 128 KiB and WKdm style compression works =
reasonably well=85)

Yeah, we've thought about the overlay strategy.  It would take a pretty =
significant redesign of the code to gain much benefit.

>=20
> Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Constrained Authorization Server?
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To your first point, would that be sufficient?  I think it can work as =
long as the system designer understands this point. =20

To your second point, in my experience, counting on an emergency =
generator is not really a good idea, the mains went away for a reason, =
assuming that back-up generator is totally redundant is a bad =
assumption.  I know this a an extreme case but recall Fukushima, in =
addition to the mains the emergency generators also went down, sensors =
indicating critical temperatures and such would still be required.

Pat

Pat Kinney
Kinney Consulting LLC
IEEE 802.15 WG vice chair, TG chair
ISA100.11a WG chair
O: +1.847.960.3715
pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com






On Mar 14, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com> =
wrote:


Hi Pat,

Depending on what security mechanisms we use, and how the applications =
are written, it is possible that existing associations between the =
battery operated nodes could survive as long as the session keys (or =
whatever temporary credentials they are using for ongoing communication) =
remain valid.  The nodes would not be able to establish a new =
authenticated session without an Authentication Server, and no new nodes =
could usefully join the network (since they couldn't establish secure =
communication with any other nodes), but ongoing associations would =
survive, perhaps for quite a long time (depending on the key lifetimes). =
 Would that be sufficient for the case described below?

Of course, many systems that are truly critical will be plugged into a =
UPS that is sufficient to power the system until an emergency generator =
can come online. =20

Margaret

On Mar 14, 2014, at 9:05 AM, Pat Kinney =
<pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com> wrote:

> I agree with Margaret's analysis with one exception, what about an =
emergency situation where mains power has been lost?  A network of =
battery-powered devices could be providing a critical service, so the =
Authorization Server might be on a short-lived UPS.  In this case it =
could be considered "constrained".  Given this, is it reasonable to =
expect the network to continue operating without the authorization =
server?  I.E. in an established network can the Authorization Server be =
intermittent?
>=20
> Pat
>=20
> Pat Kinney
> Kinney Consulting LLC
> IEEE 802.15 WG vice chair, TG chair
> ISA100.11a WG chair
> O: +1.847.960.3715
> pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com
>=20
>=20
> On Mar 14, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman =
<margaretw42@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I think the ACE effort =
should consider situations where the Authorization Server is a =
constrained node.  I wrote the following answer, and I thought it might =
be useful to share it here:
>=20
>> I think that depends on what you mean by "constrained".  I don't =
think an authorization server needs to have a user input device, =
necessarily=85  It could be embedded in a home gateway, or a building =
control system or an irrigation controller.  However, i don't think that =
you will want to have a battery-operated, intermittently connected =
authorization server, because it might not be available when the client =
and server want to talk to one another.
>>=20
>> If you assume that a "constrained" node can be =
always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold =
authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes, and =
has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every connection that =
those nodes want to make to each other or to the outside=85 Well, if you =
assume that a constrained node can do those things, the problem becomes =
a lot easier.  :-)
>>=20
>> I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk of those =
operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is storing =
the auth information and doing most of the authorization and =
authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.
>>=20
>> So, no, I don't think of the authorization server as being a =
constrained node in the same sense as battery-operated sensors, =
actuators, etc.
>=20
> Margaret
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--Apple-Mail=_503EFEDF-881B-4347-8695-66F98139AB6E
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	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">To =
your first point, would that be sufficient? &nbsp;I think it can work as =
long as the system designer understands this point. =
&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>To your second point, in my experience, =
counting on an emergency generator is not really a good idea, the mains =
went away for a reason, assuming that back-up generator is totally =
redundant is a bad assumption. &nbsp;I know this a an extreme case but =
recall Fukushima, in addition to the mains the emergency generators also =
went down, sensors indicating critical temperatures and such would still =
be required.<div><br></div><div>Pat</div><div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;  "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica;  font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica;  font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica;  font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; "><div>Pat Kinney</div><div><b><i>Kinney =
Consulting LLC</i></b></div><div>IEEE 802.15 WG vice chair, TG =
chair</div><div>ISA100.11a WG chair</div><div>O: =
+1.847.960.3715</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration: none; =
">pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com</a></div></span></div></div><div><br>=
</div></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Mar 14, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Margaret Wasserman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:margaretw42@gmail.com">margaretw42@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div>Hi Pat,<div><br></div><div>Depending on what security =
mechanisms we use, and how the applications are written, it is possible =
that existing associations between the battery operated nodes could =
survive as long as the session keys (or whatever temporary credentials =
they are using for ongoing communication) remain valid. &nbsp;The nodes =
would not be able to establish a new authenticated session without an =
Authentication Server, and no new nodes could usefully join the network =
(since they couldn't establish secure communication with any other =
nodes), but ongoing associations would survive, perhaps for quite a long =
time (depending on the key lifetimes). &nbsp;Would that be sufficient =
for the case described below?</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, many =
systems that are truly critical will be plugged into a UPS that is =
sufficient to power the system until an emergency generator can come =
online. =
&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Margaret</div><div><br></div><div><div><di=
v>On Mar 14, 2014, at 9:05 AM, Pat Kinney &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com">pat.kinney@kinneyconsul=
tingllc.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">I =
agree with Margaret's analysis with one exception, what about an =
emergency situation where mains power has been lost? &nbsp;A network of =
battery-powered devices could be providing a critical service, so the =
Authorization Server might be on a short-lived UPS. &nbsp;In this case =
it could be considered "constrained". &nbsp;Given this, is it reasonable =
to expect the network to continue operating without the authorization =
server? &nbsp;I.E. in an established network can the Authorization =
Server be intermittent?<div><br></div><div>Pat</div><div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px; "><div>Pat =
Kinney</div><div><b><i>Kinney Consulting LLC</i></b></div><div>IEEE =
802.15 WG vice chair, TG chair</div><div>ISA100.11a WG =
chair</div><div>O: +1.847.960.3715</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com" =
style=3D"text-decoration: none; =
">pat.kinney@kinneyconsultingllc.com</a></div></span></div></div><div><br>=
</div></div></span></div></span></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span></div><div><div>On Mar 14, =
2014, at 7:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:margaretw42@gmail.com">margaretw42@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div><div>In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I =
think the ACE effort should consider situations where the Authorization =
Server is a constrained node. &nbsp;I wrote the following answer, and I =
thought it might be useful to share it =
here:</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">I think that depends on what you mean =
by "constrained". &nbsp;I don't think an authorization server needs to =
have a user input device, necessarily=85 &nbsp;It could be embedded in a =
home gateway, or a building control system or an irrigation controller. =
&nbsp;However, i don't think that you will want to have a =
battery-operated, intermittently connected authorization server, because =
it might not be available when the client and server want to talk to one =
another.</span><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
monospace; ">If you assume that a "constrained" node can be =
always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold =
authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes, and =
has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every connection that =
those nodes want to make to each other or to the outside=85 Well, if you =
assume that a constrained node can do those things, the problem becomes =
a lot easier. &nbsp;:-)</span><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
monospace; ">I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk =
of those operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is =
storing the auth information and doing most of the authorization and =
authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: monospace; "><br style=3D"font-family: monospace; =
"><span style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">So, no, I don't think of the =
authorization server as being a constrained node in the same sense as =
battery-operated sensors, actuators, =
etc.</span></blockquote><br></div><div>Margaret</div></div>_______________=
________________________________<br>Ace mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ace</a><br></div></div><br></div></div>____________________=
___________________________<br>Ace mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ace</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_____________=
__________________________________<br>Ace mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/ace<br></div></div><br></div></div></body></html>=

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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:02:45 +0000
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+1 to both Margaret's statements.

Robert

On 13/03/2014 10:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> Personally, I would also rather see the use cases and requirements=20
> published as informationalRFCs.  I think that a wiki might be a good=20
> way to collect them at first, but I would prefer to be sure that we=20
> have consensus on the problem(s) we are trying to solve.  I also think =

> it will be useful to have these things in archival form later.
>
> I do not think the other work of the group should be gated on the=20
> requirements, though, as I think that it makes sense to explore how=20
> existing technologies could or couldn't meet the requirements to=20
> insure that our requirements are reality-based.
>
> Margaret
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
> Date: 03/13/2014 4:28 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>,G=F6ran Selander=20
> <goran.selander@ericsson.com>,Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
> Cc ace@ietf.org
> Subject Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
>
>
> My personal opinion is that the use case and requirements document can =

> help people to understand what kind of issues we are trying to resolve.=

>
> I can see some values to publish it into RFCs. If it is a wiki page,=20
> we will have less people to review it or improve it.
>
> Especially the use case and requirement document is already in a good=20
> shape and it is referenced several times in the mailing list to=20
> introduce our work to outside.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
> > -----????-----
> > ???: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] ?? Hannes Tschofenig
> > ????: 2014?3?13? 4:33
> > ???: G=F6ran Selander; Zach Shelby
> > ??: ace@ietf.org
> > ??: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
> >
> > Hi Goeran,
> >
> > I read a little bit between the lines of your mail and your main=20
> concern is that
> > you want to have an RFC published with your name on it.
> > A wiki page to document the requirements, and use cases is not good=20
> enough
> > for you.
> >
> > For you putting the draft text on a WG wiki feels like wasted time.
> > It is just a different form of documenting the work.
> >
> > My experience with use cases and requirements has not been great in=20
> the IETF.
> > In essence everyone quickly moves on once the group decides about a
> > particular solution direction. It then becomes very hard (for the
> > chairs) to finish the requirements work since nobody wants to review =

> or look
> > at them anymore.
> >
> > Use cases and requirements are great during the initial part of the=20
> work to get
> > an understanding of the main challenges.
> >
> > Having said that I will leave it to the group to decide what they=20
> want to do:
> > RFCs or Wiki page
> >
> > Ciao
> > Hannes
> >
> > PS: Regarding your other comment about pointing to the constraint=20
> nature to
> > every item. We can do that if you feel better but the entire charter =

> page
> > already says 10 times that we are focusing on the constraint space.
> > I am sure that the reader will have understood that when they get to =

> the task
> > list.
> >
> >
> > On 03/12/2014 10:32 AM, G=F6ran Selander wrote:
> > > Hannes, Zach and all,
> > >
> > > I must say I don=B9t find the task list of the current charter very=
=20
> helpful:
> > >
> > > =B3The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
> > >
> > > 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,=

> > > requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide th=
e
> > > identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
> > >
> > > 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
> > > constrained environments.
> > >
> > > 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
> > > proxy deployments.=B2
> > >
> > > This list does not give much more details about the work to be
> > > conducted than is already given by the title of the WG. To a person=

> > > not having followed the discussion, the impression is that the work=

> > > starts from scratch and there is no clear understanding of what to =
do.
> > >
> > > If we can=B9t formulate the problem statement and first step toward=
s a
> > > solution in some degree of detail before starting the WG that will
> > > anyway be the first task to do, so let=B9s try to get something in =

> writing.
> > >
> > >
> > > "1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases=
,
> > > requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide th=
e
> > > identification of suitable protocol mechanisms."
> > >
> > > This is hiding the fact that there has been 6 months of work on the=

> > > use case and requirements draft (the first version of this draft wa=
s
> > > submitted to CoRE in IETF88), which no one has disagreed is setting=

> > > the stage for this work. Look at parallel threads on this mailing l=
ist
> > > where people ask whether their particular security-for-IoT draft fi=
ts
> > > into ACE. The answer Hannes is giving is correctly: the scope of th=
is
> > > work is what is outlined by the use case and requirements draft. I
> > > don=B9t mind using the Wiki as a working tool but this does not giv=
e
> > > traceability a year later. And I don=B9t see the point if copying t=
he
> > > use case document into a Wiki page - read the draft and provide you=
r
> > comments!
> > >
> > > When it comes to protocol design criteria, I agree that more work i=
s
> > > needed, for which the Wiki may be suitable. Nevertheless I insist o=
n
> > > documenting the design criteria and its rationale since that provid=
es
> > > a means for traceability. Make it a milestone to have a draft with
> > > assumptions and design criteria  (you may include =B3architecture=B2=
 in
> > > this document). This work is anyway a pre-requisite for coming to a=

> > > solution, and once you have this content, the candidate solutions a=
re
> > > much easier evaluated.
> > >
> > > So, change 1) to state something like
> > >
> > > "1=B9 )
> > > a) complete the work on use case and requirements
> > > b) use Wiki pages for listing assumptions and protocol design
> > > criteria, document the result in a draft"
> > >
> > > Proxy deployment aspects fits well into 1b)  [more in separate
> > > upcoming mail]
> > >
> > >
> > > 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
> > > constrained environments.
> > >
> > > Here I=B9m missing among other things the specific problem statemen=
t.
> > > The preliminary conclusions from the use case and requirements draf=
t
> > > formed the basis for the problem statement as presented in the BOF:=
 We
> > > lack a mechanism for dynamic and fine grained access control for
> > > constrained environments.
> > >
> > > The process here should be to:
> > > "2=B9) identify suitable protocol mechanisms and match candidate
> > > authentication and authorization protocols against requirements and=

> > > design criteria, in particular addressing dynamic and fine grained
> > > access control suitable for CoAP resource access requests in=20
> constrained
> > environments."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
> > > proxy deployments.=B2
> > >
> > >
> > > As mentioned above, proxy deployments could be considered as part o=
f
> > 1=B9b).
> > > In 2=B9) it is already stated that in particular we should consider=
 CoAP
> > > on interface (II). As for use of other protocols besides CoAP that
> > > issue is orthogonal to this so I leave that out from this discussio=
n.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > G=F6ran
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/03/14 16:49, "Zach Shelby" <Zach.Shelby@arm.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hannes,
> > >>
> > >> I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item he=
re
> > >> seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will
> > >> probably result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe j=
ust
> > >> a misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the
> > >> middle of I or III?
> > >>
> > >> I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even
> > >> through I is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run
> > >> CoAP/DTLS. In other words, some interfaces can be constrained whil=
e
> > >> others are not. I think the charter already covers this fine.
> > >>
> > >> So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translat=
ion
> > >> proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future=
,
> > >> it could be tackled then.
> > >>
> > >> Zach
> > >>
> > >> On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
> > >> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi all,
> > >>>
> > >>> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent
> > >>> discussions on the mailing list and produced a new strawman=20
> proposal.
> > >>>
> > >>> The changes include:
> > >>> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will ch=
eck
> > >>> a candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
> > >>> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability=
 of
> > >>> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
> > >>> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
> > >>> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements,=

> > >>> and protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use o=
f a
> > >>> Wiki for capturing those.
> > >>>
> > >>> What do you think?
> > >>>
> > >>> -----
> > >>>
> > >>> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for
> > >>> Constrained Environment (ACE)
> > >>>
> > >>> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments=

> > >>> where network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was=

> > >>> observed that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrai=
ned
> > >>> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. =
In
> > >>> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the speci=
fic
> > >>> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of s=
uch
> > >>> a protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
> > >>> components
> > >>> As in other environments, authentication and authorization questi=
on
> > >>> also arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. F=
or
> > >>> example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access
> > >>> using a "digital key". Where are the authorization decisions stor=
ed?
> > >>> How does the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock=

> > >>> interact with an authorization server to obtain authorization
> > >>> information? How can access be granted to other persons temporari=
ly?
> > How can access be revoked?
> > >>> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols=

> > >>> for use cases outside the constrained environment. But in
> > >>> constrained environment, additional requirements pose challenges =
for
> > >>> the use of various security protocols.
> > >>>
> > >>> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authenticat=
ion
> > >>> and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Example=
s
> > >>> include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the
> > >>> Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructur=
e,
> > >>> and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols
> > >>> enjoy widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all ai=
m
> > >>> to solve a similar goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite
> > >>> different functions and utilize different message exchanges. Thes=
e
> > >>> differences are motivated by the main deployment use cases they w=
ere
> > designed for.
> > >>>
> > >>> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of
> > >>> already existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrain=
ed
> > >>> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
> > >>> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be=

> > >>> taken into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for
> > >>> obtaining the consent of the user and the inability of embedded
> > >>> devices to contact an authorization server in real-time with ever=
y
> > >>> access request due to intermittent connectivity, etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for=

> > >>> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
> > >>> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the
> > >>> working group will assume that access to resources offered by a
> > >>> resource server by a client devices takes place using CoAP and=20
> is protected
> > by DTLS.
> > >>> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This
> > >>> access will be mediated by an authorization server, which does no=
t
> > >>> suffer from the same resource limitations.
> > >>>
> > >>> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
> > >>> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. Th=
is
> > >>> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
> > >>> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each o=
f
> > >>> the specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be
> > >>> available in existing protocols and for those cases new
> > >>> functionality has to be standardized. Thus, existing work can be
> > >>> leveraged and the group benefits from available security analysis=
,
> > >>> implementation, and deployment experience. Moreover, a standardiz=
ed
> > >>> solution for federated authentication and authorization will help=
 to
> > >>> stimulate the deployment of IoT devices offering increased securi=
ty.
> > >>>
> > >>> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has bee=
n
> > >>> made the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are=

> > >>> also applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, t=
he
> > >>> ability to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be
> > investigated.
> > >>> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
> > >>> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns t=
he
> > >>> use of protocol translation proxies.
> > >>>
> > >>> To be successful this working group requires expertise in securit=
y,
> > >>> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained=

> > >>> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that th=
e
> > >>> party offering application layer services is always the same part=
y
> > >>> offering network access services.
> > >>>
> > >>> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
> > >>>
> > >>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use case=
s,
> > >>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide =
the
> > >>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
> > >>>
> > >>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
> > >>> constrained environments.
> > >>>
> > >>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and=

> > >>> proxy deployments.
> > >>>
> > >>> -----
> > >>>
> > >>> Ciao
> > >>> Hannes
> > >>>
> > >>> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
> > >>> Ace mailing list
> > >>> Ace@ietf.org
> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> > >>
> > >> Zach Shelby
> > >> Director of Technology
> > >> ARM Internet of Things BU
> > >> www.arm.com
> > >> mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
> > >> Skype: zdshelby
> > >> LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachment=
s
> > >> are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
> > >> intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do no=
t
> > >> disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose,=
 or
> > >> store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.
> > >>
> > >> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9N=
J,
> > >> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2557590 ARM Holdings pl=
c,
> > >> Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered=
 in
> > >> England & Wales, Company No:  2548782
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Ace mailing list
> > >> Ace@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ace mailing list
> > > Ace@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> > >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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  <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    +1 to both Margaret's statements.<br>
    <br>
    Robert<br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 13/03/2014 10:55 AM, Margaret
      Wasserman wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite=3D"mid:3ai2vu1bh1hq4roxt53capi0.1394707574966@email.android.co=
m"
      type=3D"cite">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html;
        charset=3DISO-8859-1">
      Personally, I would also rather see the use cases and requirements
      published as informationalRFCs. &nbsp;I think that a wiki might be =
a
      good way to collect them at first, but I would prefer to be sure
      that we have consensus on the problem(s) we are trying to solve.
      &nbsp;I also think it will be useful to have these things in archiv=
al
      form later.
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I do not think the other work of the group should be gated on
        the requirements, though, as I think that it makes sense to
        explore how existing technologies could or couldn't meet the
        requirements to insure that our requirements are reality-based.</=
div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Margaret</div>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      -------- Original message --------<br>
      From Likepeng <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:lik=
epeng@huawei.com">&lt;likepeng@huawei.com&gt;</a> <br>
      Date: 03/13/2014 4:28 AM (GMT-05:00) <br>
      To Hannes Tschofenig <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mai=
lto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net">&lt;hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net&gt;</a>,G&ou=
ml;ran
      Selander <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:goran.se=
lander@ericsson.com">&lt;goran.selander@ericsson.com&gt;</a>,Zach Shelby
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:Zach.Shelby@arm.c=
om">&lt;Zach.Shelby@arm.com&gt;</a> <br>
      Cc <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.or=
g">ace@ietf.org</a> <br>
      Subject Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5 <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      My personal opinion is that the use case and requirements document
      can help people to understand what kind of issues we are trying to
      resolve.<br>
      <br>
      I can see some values to publish it into RFCs. If it is a wiki
      page, we will have less people to review it or improve it. <br>
      <br>
      Especially the use case and requirement document is already in a
      good shape and it is referenced several times in the mailing list
      to introduce our work to outside.<br>
      <br>
      Thanks,<br>
      <br>
      Kind Regards<br>
      Kepeng<br>
      <br>
      &gt; -----&#37038;&#20214;&#21407;&#20214;-----<br>
      &gt; &#21457;&#20214;&#20154;: Ace [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freete=
xt" href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>]=
 &#20195;&#34920; Hannes Tschofenig<br>
      &gt; &#21457;&#36865;&#26102;&#38388;: 2014&#24180;3&#26376;13&#260=
85; 4:33<br>
      &gt; &#25910;&#20214;&#20154;: G&ouml;ran Selander; Zach Shelby<br>=

      &gt; &#25220;&#36865;: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D=
"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br>
      &gt; &#20027;&#39064;: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; Hi Goeran,<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; I read a little bit between the lines of your mail and your
      main concern is that<br>
      &gt; you want to have an RFC published with your name on it.<br>
      &gt; A wiki page to document the requirements, and use cases is
      not good enough<br>
      &gt; for you.<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; For you putting the draft text on a WG wiki feels like wasted
      time.<br>
      &gt; It is just a different form of documenting the work.<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; My experience with use cases and requirements has not been
      great in the IETF.<br>
      &gt; In essence everyone quickly moves on once the group decides
      about a<br>
      &gt; particular solution direction. It then becomes very hard (for
      the<br>
      &gt; chairs) to finish the requirements work since nobody wants to
      review or look<br>
      &gt; at them anymore.<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; Use cases and requirements are great during the initial part
      of the work to get<br>
      &gt; an understanding of the main challenges.<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; Having said that I will leave it to the group to decide what
      they want to do:<br>
      &gt; RFCs or Wiki page<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; Ciao<br>
      &gt; Hannes<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; PS: Regarding your other comment about pointing to the
      constraint nature to<br>
      &gt; every item. We can do that if you feel better but the entire
      charter page<br>
      &gt; already says 10 times that we are focusing on the constraint
      space.<br>
      &gt; I am sure that the reader will have understood that when they
      get to the task<br>
      &gt; list.<br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; <br>
      &gt; On 03/12/2014 10:32 AM, G&ouml;ran Selander wrote:<br>
      &gt; &gt; Hannes, Zach and all,<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; I must say I don&sup1;t find the task list of the current=

      charter very helpful:<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; &sup3;The working group has the following tasks (in this
      order):<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document
      use cases,<br>
      &gt; &gt; requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work
      will guide the<br>
      &gt; &gt; identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization
      protocol for<br>
      &gt; &gt; constrained environments.<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with
      HTTP/TLS and<br>
      &gt; &gt; proxy deployments.&sup2;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; This list does not give much more details about the work
      to be<br>
      &gt; &gt; conducted than is already given by the title of the WG.
      To a person<br>
      &gt; &gt; not having followed the discussion, the impression is
      that the work<br>
      &gt; &gt; starts from scratch and there is no clear understanding
      of what to do.<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; If we can&sup1;t formulate the problem statement and firs=
t
      step towards a<br>
      &gt; &gt; solution in some degree of detail before starting the WG
      that will<br>
      &gt; &gt; anyway be the first task to do, so let&sup1;s try to get
      something in writing.<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; "1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to
      document use cases,<br>
      &gt; &gt; requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work
      will guide the<br>
      &gt; &gt; identification of suitable protocol mechanisms."<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; This is hiding the fact that there has been 6 months of
      work on the<br>
      &gt; &gt; use case and requirements draft (the first version of
      this draft was<br>
      &gt; &gt; submitted to CoRE in IETF88), which no one has disagreed
      is setting<br>
      &gt; &gt; the stage for this work. Look at parallel threads on
      this mailing list<br>
      &gt; &gt; where people ask whether their particular
      security-for-IoT draft fits<br>
      &gt; &gt; into ACE. The answer Hannes is giving is correctly: the
      scope of this<br>
      &gt; &gt; work is what is outlined by the use case and
      requirements draft. I<br>
      &gt; &gt; don&sup1;t mind using the Wiki as a working tool but this=

      does not give<br>
      &gt; &gt; traceability a year later. And I don&sup1;t see the point=
 if
      copying the<br>
      &gt; &gt; use case document into a Wiki page - read the draft and
      provide your<br>
      &gt; comments!<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; When it comes to protocol design criteria, I agree that
      more work is<br>
      &gt; &gt; needed, for which the Wiki may be suitable. Nevertheless
      I insist on<br>
      &gt; &gt; documenting the design criteria and its rationale since
      that provides<br>
      &gt; &gt; a means for traceability. Make it a milestone to have a
      draft with<br>
      &gt; &gt; assumptions and design criteria&nbsp; (you may include
      &sup3;architecture&sup2; in<br>
      &gt; &gt; this document). This work is anyway a pre-requisite for
      coming to a<br>
      &gt; &gt; solution, and once you have this content, the candidate
      solutions are<br>
      &gt; &gt; much easier evaluated.<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; So, change 1) to state something like<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; "1&sup1; )<br>
      &gt; &gt; a) complete the work on use case and requirements<br>
      &gt; &gt; b) use Wiki pages for listing assumptions and protocol
      design<br>
      &gt; &gt; criteria, document the result in a draft"<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; Proxy deployment aspects fits well into 1b)&nbsp; [more i=
n
      separate<br>
      &gt; &gt; upcoming mail]<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization
      protocol for<br>
      &gt; &gt; constrained environments.<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; Here I&sup1;m missing among other things the specific pro=
blem
      statement.<br>
      &gt; &gt; The preliminary conclusions from the use case and
      requirements draft<br>
      &gt; &gt; formed the basis for the problem statement as presented
      in the BOF: We<br>
      &gt; &gt; lack a mechanism for dynamic and fine grained access
      control for<br>
      &gt; &gt; constrained environments.<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; The process here should be to:<br>
      &gt; &gt; "2&sup1;) identify suitable protocol mechanisms and match=

      candidate<br>
      &gt; &gt; authentication and authorization protocols against
      requirements and<br>
      &gt; &gt; design criteria, in particular addressing dynamic and
      fine grained<br>
      &gt; &gt; access control suitable for CoAP resource access
      requests in constrained<br>
      &gt; environments."<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with
      HTTP/TLS and<br>
      &gt; &gt; proxy deployments.&sup2;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; As mentioned above, proxy deployments could be
      considered as part of<br>
      &gt; 1&sup1;b).<br>
      &gt; &gt; In 2&sup1;) it is already stated that in particular we sh=
ould
      consider CoAP<br>
      &gt; &gt; on interface (II). As for use of other protocols besides
      CoAP that<br>
      &gt; &gt; issue is orthogonal to this so I leave that out from
      this discussion.<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; G&ouml;ran<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt; On 11/03/14 16:49, "Zach Shelby"
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:Zach.Shelby@arm.c=
om">&lt;Zach.Shelby@arm.com&gt;</a> wrote:<br>
      &gt; &gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; Hannes,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; I am happy with this charter with one exception. The
      proxy item here<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; seems to be more of a distraction than anything
      else, and will<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; probably result in increased complexity. Was proxy
      support maybe just<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; a misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a
      proxy in the<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; middle of I or III?<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; I think what we really want here is to make sure
      that e.g. even<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; through I is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for
      example can run<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; CoAP/DTLS. In other words, some interfaces can be
      constrained while<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; others are not. I think the charter already covers
      this fine.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; So my proposal would be to remove the mention of
      protocol translation<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; proxies. If we really see the need for this some day
      in the future,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; it could be tackled then.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; Zach<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:han=
nes.tschofenig@gmx.net">&lt;hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net&gt;</a> wrote:<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Hi all,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I have taken the feedback from the meeting and
      the recent<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; discussions on the mailing list and produced a
      new strawman proposal.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; The changes include:<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an
      indication that we will check<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; a candidate solution for suitability with
      HTTP/TLS.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; * Added text to indicate that we will also
      verify the suitability of<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the solution for use with protocol translation
      proxies.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; * Simplified the task list by removing solution
      specific items.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; * Merged several items on the task list (use
      cases, requirements,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; and protocol design guidelines). Followed the
      suggestion to use of a<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Wiki for capturing those.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; What do you think?<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; -----<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and
      Authorization for<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Constrained Environment (ACE)<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; The IETF has recently developed protocols for
      use in environments<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; where network nodes are limited in CPU, memory,
      and power. It was<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; observed that Internet protocols can be applied
      to these constrained<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; environments, often only requiring minor
      tweaking and profiling. In<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; other cases, new protocols have been defined to
      address the specific<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; requirements of constrained devices and
      networks. An example of such<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; a protocol is the Constrained Application
      Protocol (CoAP).<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; components<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; As in other environments, authentication and
      authorization question<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; also arise in environments with constrained
      nodes and networks. For<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; example, a door lock has to authorize the person
      seeking access<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; using a "digital key". Where are the
      authorization decisions stored?<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; How does the digital key communicate with the
      lock? Does the lock<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; interact with an authorization server to obtain
      authorization<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; information? How can access be granted to other
      persons temporarily?<br>
      &gt; How can access be revoked?<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; These types of questions have been answered by
      existing protocols<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; for use cases outside the constrained
      environment. But in<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; constrained environment, additional requirements
      pose challenges for<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the use of various security protocols.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; The IETF has a long history in developing three
      party authentication<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; and authorization protocols for distributed
      environments. Examples<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure
      (PKI), the<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting
      (AAA) infrastructure,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All
      these protocols<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; enjoy widespread deployment on the Internet.
      Although they all aim<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; to solve a similar goal, at an abstract level,
      they offer quite<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; different functions and utilize different
      message exchanges. These<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; differences are motivated by the main deployment
      use cases they were<br>
      &gt; designed for.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Requirements derived from use cases indicate the
      suitability of<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; already existing work, such as OAuth, as a
      solution for constrained<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; environments. These protocols were, however, not
      optimized for<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; constrained environments. Additional
      requirements that need to be<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; taken into account are the lack of a suitable
      user-interface for<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; obtaining the consent of the user and the
      inability of embedded<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; devices to contact an authorization server in
      real-time with every<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; access request due to intermittent connectivity,
      etc.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; This working group therefore aims for a
      standardized solution for<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; authentication and authorization to enable
      authorized access to<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; resources in constrained environments. As a
      starting point, the<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; working group will assume that access to
      resources offered by a<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; resource server by a client devices takes place
      using CoAP and is protected<br>
      &gt; by DTLS.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Both resource server and client may be resource
      constraint. This<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; access will be mediated by an authorization
      server, which does not<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; suffer from the same resource limitations.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Existing authentication and authorization
      protocols are used and<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; re-applied for use with constrained devices,
      where applicable. This<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; requires relevant specifications to be reviewed
      for suitability,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; selecting a subset of them, restricting the
      options within each of<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the specifications. Some functionalities may,
      however, not be<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; available in existing protocols and for those
      cases new<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; functionality has to be standardized. Thus,
      existing work can be<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; leveraged and the group benefits from available
      security analysis,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; implementation, and deployment experience.
      Moreover, a standardized<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; solution for federated authentication and
      authorization will help to<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; stimulate the deployment of IoT devices offering
      increased security.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Once progress in identifying suitable candidate
      solutions has been<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; made the working group will verify whether the
      same mechanism are<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; also applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS.
      In particular, the<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; ability to use the developed solution over HTTP
      and TLS will be<br>
      &gt; investigated.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the
      integration with<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; existing deployment will be studied. This
      particularly concerns the<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; use of protocol translation proxies.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To be successful this working group requires
      expertise in security,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; privacy, and a good understanding of usability
      in the constrained<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; environment space. This work does not make the
      assumption that the<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; party offering application layer services is
      always the same party<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; offering network access services.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; The working group has the following tasks (in
      this order):<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to
      document use cases,<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; requirements, and protocol design criteria. This
      work will guide the<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.<b=
r>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 2) Selection of an authentication and
      authorization protocol for<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; constrained environments.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use
      with HTTP/TLS and<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; proxy deployments.<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; -----<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Ciao<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Hannes<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
      &lt;signature.asc&gt;______________________________________________=
_<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Ace mailing list<br>
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o/ace</a><br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; Zach Shelby<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; Director of Technology<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; ARM Internet of Things BU<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"http://=
www.arm.com">www.arm.com</a><br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; Skype: zdshelby<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
      &gt; &gt;&gt; -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Constrained Authorization Server?
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Hi Margaret,

I agree it depends what you mean by "constrained". LWIG has a=20
terminology document which tries to put some context to the adjective:=20
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lwig-terminology-07.

I think what is important to consider is how constrained the AS itself=20
is (as a node and device) and how constrained the connection to the AS=20
is. If the client/RS is first communicating through a constrained node=20
network then via a border router, it may still be expedient to consider=20
a protocol which can run on a constrained node network, as this becomes=20
the limiting factor unless some sort of caching or distribution can be=20
considered. This is independent to what resources the AS itself has for=20
processing.

Robert

On 14/03/2014 12:55 PM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
>
> In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I think the ACE effort=20
> should consider situations where the Authorization Server is a=20
> constrained node.  I wrote the following answer, and I thought it=20
> might be useful to share it here:
>
>> I think that depends on what you mean by "constrained".  I don't=20
>> think an authorization server needs to have a user input device,=20
>> necessarily...  It could be embedded in a home gateway, or a building =

>> control system or an irrigation controller.  However, i don't think=20
>> that you will want to have a battery-operated, intermittently=20
>> connected authorization server, because it might not be available=20
>> when the client and server want to talk to one another.
>>
>> If you assume that a "constrained" node can be=20
>> always-on/always-connected, can have enough data storage to hold=20
>> authentication and authorization information for a network of nodes,=20
>> and has enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every=20
>> connection that those nodes want to make to each other or to the=20
>> outside... Well, if you assume that a constrained node can do those=20
>> things, the problem becomes a lot easier.  :-)
>>
>> I see the point of this effort as figuring out how the bulk of those=20
>> operations can be handled by a less-constrained server that is=20
>> storing the auth information and doing most of the authorization and=20
>> authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.
>>
>> So, no, I don't think of the authorization server as being a=20
>> constrained node in the same sense as battery-operated sensors,=20
>> actuators, etc.
>
> Margaret
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--------------010201000205020605050707
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    Hi Margaret,<br>
    <br>
    I agree it depends what you mean by "constrained". LWIG has a
    terminology document which tries to put some context to the
    adjective:
    <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-ietf-lwig-terminology-07">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lw=
ig-terminology-07</a>.<br>
    <br>
    I think what is important to consider is how constrained the AS
    itself is (as a node and device) and how constrained the connection
    to the AS is. If the client/RS is first communicating through a
    constrained node network then via a border router, it may still be
    expedient to consider a protocol which can run on a constrained node
    network, as this becomes the limiting factor unless some sort of
    caching or distribution can be considered. This is independent to
    what resources the AS itself has for processing.<br>
    <br>
    Robert<br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 14/03/2014 12:55 PM, Margaret
      Wasserman wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite=3D"mid:133A4AE5-7D89-4CDC-A47C-25F5D7C3E49B@gmail.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html;
        charset=3DISO-8859-1">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I think the ACE
        effort should consider situations where the Authorization Server
        is a constrained node. &nbsp;I wrote the following answer, and I
        thought it might be useful to share it here:</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"font-family: monospace; =
">I
            think that depends on what you mean by "constrained". &nbsp;I=

            don't think an authorization server needs to have a user
            input device, necessarily&#8230; &nbsp;It could be embedded i=
n a home
            gateway, or a building control system or an irrigation
            controller. &nbsp;However, i don't think that you will want t=
o
            have a battery-operated, intermittently connected
            authorization server, because it might not be available when
            the client and server want to talk to one another.</span><br
            style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">
          <br style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">
          <span style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">If you assume that a
            "constrained" node can be always-on/always-connected, can
            have enough data storage to hold authentication and
            authorization information for a network of nodes, and has
            enough CPU to run crypto operations to service every
            connection that those nodes want to make to each other or to
            the outside&#8230; Well, if you assume that a constrained nod=
e can
            do those things, the problem becomes a lot easier. &nbsp;:-)<=
/span><br
            style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">
          <br style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">
          <span style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">I see the point of thi=
s
            effort as figuring out how the bulk of those operations can
            be handled by a less-constrained server that is storing the
            auth information and doing most of the authorization and
            authentication work on behalf of the constrained nodes.</span=
><br
            style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">
          <br style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">
          <span style=3D"font-family: monospace; ">So, no, I don't think
            of the authorization server as being a constrained node in
            the same sense as battery-operated sensors, actuators, etc.</=
span></blockquote>
        <br>
      </div>
      <div>Margaret</div>
      <br>
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 08:31:47 -0700
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Use a Wiki to collect use cases and requirements, refine and produce a=20
concise list. Then that could be cut and pasted into a single RFC - or=20
if preferred, put into an annex in a technical specification - as long=20
as the work has an endpoint and is captured in some document and not=20
left in some nebulous Wiki. Someone mentioned homenet - I would not want =

to see that process emulated at all.

Robert

On 14/03/2014 3:31 PM, Zach Shelby wrote:
> As I mentioned in the BoF, my advice would be to just use a wiki to col=
lect use cases and requirements.
>
> Now, if we want to waste the first half year brining such drafts throug=
h the RFC process then go ahead. From my experience these kinds of work i=
tems are just a WG black hole. You can always document the assumed use ca=
ses within the actual technical specification to make it clear what probl=
em it is trying to solve.
>
> Zach
>
> On Mar 14, 2014, at 8:02 AM, Robert Cragie <robert.cragie@gridmerge.com=
> wrote:
>
>> +1 to both Margaret's statements.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 13/03/2014 10:55 AM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
>>> Personally, I would also rather see the use cases and requirements pu=
blished as informationalRFCs.  I think that a wiki might be a good way to=
 collect them at first, but I would prefer to be sure that we have consen=
sus on the problem(s) we are trying to solve.  I also think it will be us=
eful to have these things in archival form later.
>>>
>>> I do not think the other work of the group should be gated on the req=
uirements, though, as I think that it makes sense to explore how existing=
 technologies could or couldn't meet the requirements to insure that our =
requirements are reality-based.
>>>
>>> Margaret
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>  From Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
>>> Date: 03/13/2014 4:28 AM (GMT-05:00)
>>> To Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>,G=C3=B6ran Selander =
<goran.selander@ericsson.com>,Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>
>>> Cc ace@ietf.org
>>> Subject Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
>>>
>>>
>>> My personal opinion is that the use case and requirements document ca=
n help people to understand what kind of issues we are trying to resolve.=

>>>
>>> I can see some values to publish it into RFCs. If it is a wiki page, =
we will have less people to review it or improve it.
>>>
>>> Especially the use case and requirement document is already in a good=
 shape and it is referenced several times in the mailing list to introduc=
e our work to outside.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Kind Regards
>>> Kepeng
>>>
>>>> -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
>>>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=
=A3=E8=A1=A8 Hannes Tschofenig
>>>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2014=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=
=A5 4:33
>>>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: G=C3=B6ran Selander; Zach Shelby
>>>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: ace@ietf.org
>>>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
>>>>
>>>> Hi Goeran,
>>>>
>>>> I read a little bit between the lines of your mail and your main con=
cern is that
>>>> you want to have an RFC published with your name on it.
>>>> A wiki page to document the requirements, and use cases is not good =
enough
>>>> for you.
>>>>
>>>> For you putting the draft text on a WG wiki feels like wasted time.
>>>> It is just a different form of documenting the work.
>>>>
>>>> My experience with use cases and requirements has not been great in =
the IETF.
>>>> In essence everyone quickly moves on once the group decides about a
>>>> particular solution direction. It then becomes very hard (for the
>>>> chairs) to finish the requirements work since nobody wants to review=
 or look
>>>> at them anymore.
>>>>
>>>> Use cases and requirements are great during the initial part of the =
work to get
>>>> an understanding of the main challenges.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that I will leave it to the group to decide what they wa=
nt to do:
>>>> RFCs or Wiki page
>>>>
>>>> Ciao
>>>> Hannes
>>>>
>>>> PS: Regarding your other comment about pointing to the constraint na=
ture to
>>>> every item. We can do that if you feel better but the entire charter=
 page
>>>> already says 10 times that we are focusing on the constraint space.
>>>> I am sure that the reader will have understood that when they get to=
 the task
>>>> list.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 03/12/2014 10:32 AM, G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote:
>>>>> Hannes, Zach and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I must say I don=C2=B9t find the task list of the current charter v=
ery helpful:
>>>>>
>>>>> =C2=B3The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases,=

>>>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide th=
e
>>>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
>>>>> proxy deployments.=C2=B2
>>>>>
>>>>> This list does not give much more details about the work to be
>>>>> conducted than is already given by the title of the WG. To a person=

>>>>> not having followed the discussion, the impression is that the work=

>>>>> starts from scratch and there is no clear understanding of what to =
do.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we can=C2=B9t formulate the problem statement and first step tow=
ards a
>>>>> solution in some degree of detail before starting the WG that will
>>>>> anyway be the first task to do, so let=C2=B9s try to get something =
in writing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use cases=
,
>>>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide th=
e
>>>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms."
>>>>>
>>>>> This is hiding the fact that there has been 6 months of work on the=

>>>>> use case and requirements draft (the first version of this draft wa=
s
>>>>> submitted to CoRE in IETF88), which no one has disagreed is setting=

>>>>> the stage for this work. Look at parallel threads on this mailing l=
ist
>>>>> where people ask whether their particular security-for-IoT draft fi=
ts
>>>>> into ACE. The answer Hannes is giving is correctly: the scope of th=
is
>>>>> work is what is outlined by the use case and requirements draft. I
>>>>> don=C2=B9t mind using the Wiki as a working tool but this does not =
give
>>>>> traceability a year later. And I don=C2=B9t see the point if copyin=
g the
>>>>> use case document into a Wiki page - read the draft and provide you=
r
>>>> comments!
>>>>> When it comes to protocol design criteria, I agree that more work i=
s
>>>>> needed, for which the Wiki may be suitable. Nevertheless I insist o=
n
>>>>> documenting the design criteria and its rationale since that provid=
es
>>>>> a means for traceability. Make it a milestone to have a draft with
>>>>> assumptions and design criteria  (you may include =C2=B3architectur=
e=C2=B2 in
>>>>> this document). This work is anyway a pre-requisite for coming to a=

>>>>> solution, and once you have this content, the candidate solutions a=
re
>>>>> much easier evaluated.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, change 1) to state something like
>>>>>
>>>>> "1=C2=B9 )
>>>>> a) complete the work on use case and requirements
>>>>> b) use Wiki pages for listing assumptions and protocol design
>>>>> criteria, document the result in a draft"
>>>>>
>>>>> Proxy deployment aspects fits well into 1b)  [more in separate
>>>>> upcoming mail]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here I=C2=B9m missing among other things the specific problem state=
ment.
>>>>> The preliminary conclusions from the use case and requirements draf=
t
>>>>> formed the basis for the problem statement as presented in the BOF:=
 We
>>>>> lack a mechanism for dynamic and fine grained access control for
>>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>>
>>>>> The process here should be to:
>>>>> "2=C2=B9) identify suitable protocol mechanisms and match candidate=

>>>>> authentication and authorization protocols against requirements and=

>>>>> design criteria, in particular addressing dynamic and fine grained
>>>>> access control suitable for CoAP resource access requests in constr=
ained
>>>> environments."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and
>>>>> proxy deployments.=C2=B2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As mentioned above, proxy deployments could be considered as part o=
f
>>>> 1=C2=B9b).
>>>>> In 2=C2=B9) it is already stated that in particular we should consi=
der CoAP
>>>>> on interface (II). As for use of other protocols besides CoAP that
>>>>> issue is orthogonal to this so I leave that out from this discussio=
n.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> G=C3=B6ran
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/03/14 16:49, "Zach Shelby" <Zach.Shelby@arm.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hannes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am happy with this charter with one exception. The proxy item he=
re
>>>>>> seems to be more of a distraction than anything else, and will
>>>>>> probably result in increased complexity. Was proxy support maybe j=
ust
>>>>>> a misunderstanding? Do we really see the need for a proxy in the
>>>>>> middle of I or III?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think what we really want here is to make sure that e.g. even
>>>>>> through I is based on HTTP/TLS, II and III for example can run
>>>>>> CoAP/DTLS. In other words, some interfaces can be constrained whil=
e
>>>>>> others are not. I think the charter already covers this fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my proposal would be to remove the mention of protocol translat=
ion
>>>>>> proxies. If we really see the need for this some day in the future=
,
>>>>>> it could be tackled then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zach
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:50 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have taken the feedback from the meeting and the recent
>>>>>>> discussions on the mailing list and produced a new strawman propo=
sal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The changes include:
>>>>>>> * Added the focus on DTLS/CoAP with an indication that we will ch=
eck
>>>>>>> a candidate solution for suitability with HTTP/TLS.
>>>>>>> * Added text to indicate that we will also verify the suitability=
 of
>>>>>>> the solution for use with protocol translation proxies.
>>>>>>> * Simplified the task list by removing solution specific items.
>>>>>>> * Merged several items on the task list (use cases, requirements,=

>>>>>>> and protocol design guidelines). Followed the suggestion to use o=
f a
>>>>>>> Wiki for capturing those.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Draft Charter V0.5 - Authentication and Authorization for
>>>>>>> Constrained Environment (ACE)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments=

>>>>>>> where network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was=

>>>>>>> observed that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrai=
ned
>>>>>>> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. =
In
>>>>>>> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the speci=
fic
>>>>>>> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of s=
uch
>>>>>>> a protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>>>>>>> components
>>>>>>> As in other environments, authentication and authorization questi=
on
>>>>>>> also arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. F=
or
>>>>>>> example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access
>>>>>>> using a "digital key". Where are the authorization decisions stor=
ed?
>>>>>>> How does the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock=

>>>>>>> interact with an authorization server to obtain authorization
>>>>>>> information? How can access be granted to other persons temporari=
ly?
>>>> How can access be revoked?
>>>>>>> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols=

>>>>>>> for use cases outside the constrained environment. But in
>>>>>>> constrained environment, additional requirements pose challenges =
for
>>>>>>> the use of various security protocols.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authenticat=
ion
>>>>>>> and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Example=
s
>>>>>>> include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the
>>>>>>> Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructur=
e,
>>>>>>> and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols
>>>>>>> enjoy widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all ai=
m
>>>>>>> to solve a similar goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite
>>>>>>> different functions and utilize different message exchanges. Thes=
e
>>>>>>> differences are motivated by the main deployment use cases they w=
ere
>>>> designed for.
>>>>>>> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of
>>>>>>> already existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrain=
ed
>>>>>>> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
>>>>>>> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be=

>>>>>>> taken into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for
>>>>>>> obtaining the consent of the user and the inability of embedded
>>>>>>> devices to contact an authorization server in real-time with ever=
y
>>>>>>> access request due to intermittent connectivity, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for=

>>>>>>> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
>>>>>>> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the
>>>>>>> working group will assume that access to resources offered by a
>>>>>>> resource server by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is=
 protected
>>>> by DTLS.
>>>>>>> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This
>>>>>>> access will be mediated by an authorization server, which does no=
t
>>>>>>> suffer from the same resource limitations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and
>>>>>>> re-applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. Th=
is
>>>>>>> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
>>>>>>> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each o=
f
>>>>>>> the specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be
>>>>>>> available in existing protocols and for those cases new
>>>>>>> functionality has to be standardized. Thus, existing work can be
>>>>>>> leveraged and the group benefits from available security analysis=
,
>>>>>>> implementation, and deployment experience. Moreover, a standardiz=
ed
>>>>>>> solution for federated authentication and authorization will help=
 to
>>>>>>> stimulate the deployment of IoT devices offering increased securi=
ty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has bee=
n
>>>>>>> made the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are=

>>>>>>> also applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS. In particular, t=
he
>>>>>>> ability to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be
>>>> investigated.
>>>>>>> Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the integration with
>>>>>>> existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns t=
he
>>>>>>> use of protocol translation proxies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be successful this working group requires expertise in securit=
y,
>>>>>>> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained=

>>>>>>> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that th=
e
>>>>>>> party offering application layer services is always the same part=
y
>>>>>>> offering network access services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) The working group Wiki pages will be used to document use case=
s,
>>>>>>> requirements, and protocol design criteria. This work will guide =
the
>>>>>>> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
>>>>>>> constrained environments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and=

>>>>>>> proxy deployments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ciao
>>>>>>> Hannes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <signature.asc>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>>> Zach Shelby
>>>>>> Director of Technology
>>>>>> ARM Internet of Things BU
>>>>>> www.arm.com
>>>>>> mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
>>>>>> Skype: zdshelby
>>>>>> LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachment=
s
>>>>>> are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
>>>>>> intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do no=
t
>>>>>> disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose,=
 or
>>>>>> store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9N=
J,
>>>>>> Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590 ARM Holdings p=
lc,
>>>>>> Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered=
 in
>>>>>> England & Wales, Company No:  2548782
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>>
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>> <smime.p7s>_______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> Zach Shelby
> Director of Technology
> ARM Internet of Things BU
> www.arm.com
> mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
> Skype: zdshelby
> LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/
>
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are=
 confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended rec=
ipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the cont=
ents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the in=
formation in any medium.  Thank you.
>
> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Re=
gistered in England & Wales, Company No:  2557590
> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9N=
J, Registered in England & Wales, Company No:  2548782
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace



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From: Sandeep Kumar <ietf@sandeep.de>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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Hi Hannes

The interoperability challenge you describe will be as much as a client
implementing "the chosen" option that talks to a resource server which does
not implement any option since it does not have the resources to implement
"the chosen" option. Given few options, it will be the system designers who
needs to mix-and-match devices based on the appropriate security
requirements into their system. Keep the number of options extremely small
(maybe 2).

Sandeep


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <
hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi Carsten,
>
> while that's an interesting way to post pone the problem it introduces
> interoperability problems.
>
> Clients implementing one option who talk to resource servers
> implementing different options.
>
> Do you see the interop challenges there?
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
> On 03/13/2014 05:37 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> > On 13 Mar 2014, at 17:05, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I fully agree with the challenge you
> >> identified regarding symmetric vs. asymmetric key crypto. It will be
> >> difficult to reach a consensus on that topic
> >
> > I don't think that such a decision is possible or desirable.
> > We didn't do that for CoAP (which has security modes, and preferred
> cipher suites, for both shared-key and public-key), and we shouldn't try =
to
> do that here.
> >
> > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ace mailing list
> > Ace@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Hannes<br><br></div>The interoperability chal=
lenge you describe will be as much as a client implementing &quot;the chose=
n&quot; option that talks to a resource server which does not implement any=
 option since it does not have the resources to implement &quot;the chosen&=
quot; option. Given few options, it will be the system designers who needs =
to mix-and-match devices based on the appropriate security requirements int=
o their system. Keep the number of options extremely small (maybe 2).<br>
<br></div>Sandeep<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Carsten,<br>
<br>
while that&#39;s an interesting way to post pone the problem it introduces<=
br>
interoperability problems.<br>
<br>
Clients implementing one option who talk to resource servers<br>
implementing different options.<br>
<br>
Do you see the interop challenges there?<br>
<br>
Ciao<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">Hannes<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On 03/13/2014 05:37 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:<br>
&gt; On 13 Mar 2014, at 17:05, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hann=
es.tschofenig@gmx.net">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I fully agree with the challenge you<br>
&gt;&gt; identified regarding symmetric vs. asymmetric key crypto. It will =
be<br>
&gt;&gt; difficult to reach a consensus on that topic<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don&rsquo;t think that such a decision is possible or desirable.<br>
&gt; We didn&rsquo;t do that for CoAP (which has security modes, and prefer=
red cipher suites, for both shared-key and public-key), and we shouldn&rsqu=
o;t try to do that here.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ace mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:39:03 -0700
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On Mar 14, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Robert Cragie <robert.cragie@gridmerge.com> wr=
ote:

> Use a Wiki to collect use cases and requirements, refine and produce a
> concise list. Then that could be cut and pasted into a single RFC - or
> if preferred, put into an annex in a technical specification - as long
> as the work has an endpoint and is captured in some document and not
> left in some nebulous Wiki.

Sure, I do think that would work.

Zach Shelby
Director of Technology
ARM Internet of Things BU
www.arm.com
mobile: +1 (408) 203-9434
Skype: zdshelby
LinkedIn: fi.linkedin.com/in/zachshelby/


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To: Sandeep Kumar <ietf@sandeep.de>
References: <53210566.60100@gmx.net> <CF477EB6.B3F8%goran.selander@ericsson.com> <5321D764.5010000@gmx.net> <61D7C04F-9B17-4EAF-A565-A25A45B97756@tzi.org> <5321E0C3.5020802@gmx.net> <CAH51uScBGi0DP7OfxS-x4=HJjzmV5SDt6uPrPJydKp8tLxASbA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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Hi Sandeep,

if we call a specification describing a set of features a 'profile' then
you are in essence saying that you want the group to standardize more
than one profile.

In this email thread we only spoken about the difference between
symmetric vs. asymmetric crypto but there might be other differentiating
features as well (pending further exploration).

Did I interpret you correctly?

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/14/2014 04:51 PM, Sandeep Kumar wrote:
> Hi Hannes
>=20
> The interoperability challenge you describe will be as much as a client=

> implementing "the chosen" option that talks to a resource server which
> does not implement any option since it does not have the resources to
> implement "the chosen" option. Given few options, it will be the system=

> designers who needs to mix-and-match devices based on the appropriate
> security requirements into their system. Keep the number of options
> extremely small (maybe 2).
>=20
> Sandeep
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>> wrote:
>=20
>     Hi Carsten,
>=20
>     while that's an interesting way to post pone the problem it introdu=
ces
>     interoperability problems.
>=20
>     Clients implementing one option who talk to resource servers
>     implementing different options.
>=20
>     Do you see the interop challenges there?
>=20
>     Ciao
>     Hannes
>=20
>=20
>     On 03/13/2014 05:37 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>     > On 13 Mar 2014, at 17:05, Hannes Tschofenig
>     <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>> wrot=
e:
>     >
>     >> I fully agree with the challenge you
>     >> identified regarding symmetric vs. asymmetric key crypto. It wil=
l be
>     >> difficult to reach a consensus on that topic
>     >
>     > I don=92t think that such a decision is possible or desirable.
>     > We didn=92t do that for CoAP (which has security modes, and
>     preferred cipher suites, for both shared-key and public-key), and w=
e
>     shouldn=92t try to do that here.
>     >
>     > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Ace mailing list
>     > Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>     >
>=20
>=20
>     _______________________________________________
>     Ace mailing list
>     Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Constrained Authorization Server?
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--=-=-=
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Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com> wrote:
    > In an offline discussion, I was asked whether I think the ACE effort
    > should
    > consider situations where the Authorization Server is a constrained
    > node.  I
    > wrote the following answer, and I thought it might be useful to share
    > it here:

    > I think that depends on what you mean by "constrained".  I don't think
    > an
    > authorization server needs to have a user input device, necessarily=
=E2=80=A6  It

To the extent that we now understand "user input" can also mean ethernet-li=
ke
(100tx/802.11) interface with HTTPS/RESTful interface that can speak to
smartphone, and/or a transitive push connection (via "the cloud") to such a
device, I think that the authorization has a user input.

    > If you assume that a "constrained" node can be
    > always-on/always-connected,
    > can have enough data storage to hold authentication and authorization
    > information for a network of nodes, and has enough CPU to run crypto
    > operations to service every connection that those nodes want to make =
to
    > each other or to the outside=E2=80=A6 Well, if you assume that a cons=
trained
    > node
    > can do those things, the problem becomes a lot easier.  :-)

I am prepared to assume that the AS has all of these things, and consider
such a device to be far less constrained than the other devices, even if it
can't run Office..

    > So, no, I don't think of the authorization server as being a constrai=
ned
    > node in the same sense as battery-operated sensors, actuators, etc.

+1

=2D-
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [


=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting for hire =3D-




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Subject: Re: [Ace] Design Consideration Document as one milestone?
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Trying to generalise Carsten's and Sandeep=B9s input on the various options
of =B3symmetric vs. asymmetric=B2. Aren=B9t the two main questions about th=
e
following keys:
                  =20
                  K1: What kind of keys shall be used by the Resource
Server and Authorization Server to protect the authorisation information?

K2: What kind of keys shall be used by the Client and Resource Server to
protect the access request/response procedure?


Two assumptions were made in the architecture presentation of the BOF:

K0: There are keys established between RS and AS (what kind?). How these
are established is out of scope for the work.

P1: The keys in K1 can be used to establish the keys in K2. This
protocol/algotrithm is in scope for the work.


(P1 is one of the main tasks of ACE together with how to transfer
authorization information from AS to RS, which may be the same protocol)
=20
What we didn=B9t discuss in the BOF was whether the keys in K0 are identica=
l
to the keys in K1. If they are not, the implicit assumption is however:

P0: The keys in K0 can be used to establish the keys in K1. This
protocol/algorithm is in scope for the work.



Then there are the meta questions like

M1: Shall the work specify a single kind of keys K0, K1, K2?

M2: Shall the work specify different cipher suites?



Examples of working assumptions:


Example 1.
---
M1: yes=20
M2: no=20
K0: asymmetric=20
K1: symmetric=20
K2: symmetric=20

P0 could e.g. be Diffie-Hellman (say DTLS with raw public keys)
P1 could be your favourite symmetric key candidate protocol


Example 2.

---
M1: yes =20
M2: yes=20
K0: symmetric=20
K1: symmetric=20
K2: asymmetric=20

K1 =3D K0, so there is no P0. The key used in K2 may be specified in the
authorisation information, say "h(PK_C) has the right to GET
/bloodpressure=B2, where h(PK_C) is the hash of the public key of the
Client.  P1 carries and protects the authorisation information and
communicates also which cipher suite is to be used between Client and RS.




Example 3.
---
M1: no
M2: no
K0: asymmetric or symmetric
K1: symmetric
K2: symmetric


The work specifies two alternatives for establishing the keys in K1 (say
as in examples 1 or 2). The protocol P1 uses whatever keys K1.





Now mapping Carsten's and Sandeep=B9s input to this terminology. Both answe=
r
M1: no.

If I understand Carsten right he says that K2 should be symmetric. Some
keys established between RS and AS may be either symmetric or asymmetric.
Like in example 3?

If I understand Sandeep right he is saying that we should allow both
symmetric and asymmetric keys in K2, and he answers M2: yes. Were you
thinking of communicating ciphersuites like in 2?


Did I get it right?

Is this helpful or does it just complicate matters?


G=F6ran


PS

I left out potential keys used in communication between Client and AS
because
a) it is not necessary that they communicate at all
b) the Client may use different keys in communicating with AS and RS,
respectively
c) the keys used may depend on access policy (see Ex. 2 above) and we want
the authorisation solution to be independent of access policy.
=20






On 14/03/14 07:15, "Hannes Tschofenig" <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:

>Hi Sandeep,
>
>if we call a specification describing a set of features a 'profile' then
>you are in essence saying that you want the group to standardize more
>than one profile.
>
>In this email thread we only spoken about the difference between
>symmetric vs. asymmetric crypto but there might be other differentiating
>features as well (pending further exploration).
>
>Did I interpret you correctly?
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>On 03/14/2014 04:51 PM, Sandeep Kumar wrote:
>> Hi Hannes
>>=20
>> The interoperability challenge you describe will be as much as a client
>> implementing "the chosen" option that talks to a resource server which
>> does not implement any option since it does not have the resources to
>> implement "the chosen" option. Given few options, it will be the system
>> designers who needs to mix-and-match devices based on the appropriate
>> security requirements into their system. Keep the number of options
>> extremely small (maybe 2).
>>=20
>> Sandeep
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>> wrote:
>>=20
>>     Hi Carsten,
>>=20
>>     while that's an interesting way to post pone the problem it
>>introduces
>>     interoperability problems.
>>=20
>>     Clients implementing one option who talk to resource servers
>>     implementing different options.
>>=20
>>     Do you see the interop challenges there?
>>=20
>>     Ciao
>>     Hannes
>>=20
>>=20
>>     On 03/13/2014 05:37 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>     > On 13 Mar 2014, at 17:05, Hannes Tschofenig
>>     <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>
>>wrote:
>>     >
>>     >> I fully agree with the challenge you
>>     >> identified regarding symmetric vs. asymmetric key crypto. It
>>will be
>>     >> difficult to reach a consensus on that topic
>>     >
>>     > I don=B9t think that such a decision is possible or desirable.
>>     > We didn=B9t do that for CoAP (which has security modes, and
>>     preferred cipher suites, for both shared-key and public-key), and we
>>     shouldn=B9t try to do that here.
>>     >
>>     > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > Ace mailing list
>>     > Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>     >
>>=20
>>=20
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Ace mailing list
>>     Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>


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From: Bert Greevenbosch <Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>, Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Authorization server: a constrained device?
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From nobody Mon Mar 17 02:31:10 2014
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From: Bert Greevenbosch <Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 09:30:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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I have reviewed the new charter.

I have a comment on the following task:
> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for constrai=
ned environments.

I think there is more to it than "selection", especially since we may need =
to make some adjustments or define something new for the constrained case.

So I support G=F6ran's proposal to change the task, but I propose a slightl=
y different version:

> 2) Identify suitable authentication and authorization mechanisms, in part=
icular addressing dynamic and fine grained access control suitable for CoAP=
 resource access requests in constrained environments.

What do you think?

Best regards,
Bert



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
> Sent: 13 March 2014 09:25
> To: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
>=20
> --> Here is an update based on comments from Goeran.
>=20
> Draft Charter V0.6 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained
> Environment (ACE)
>=20
> The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments where
> network nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed
> that Internet protocols can be applied to these constrained
> environments, often only requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In
> other cases, new protocols have been defined to address the specific
> requirements of constrained devices and networks. An example of such a
> protocol is the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP).
>=20
> As in other environments, authentication and authorization question
> also arise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For
> example, a door lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a
> "digital key". Where are the authorization decisions stored? How does
> the digital key communicate with the lock? Does the lock interact with
> an authorization server to obtain authorization information? How can
> access be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be
> revoked?
> These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for
> use cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained
> environment, additional requirements pose challenges for the use of
> various security protocols. In particular, the need for a dynamic and
> fine grained access control mechanism whereby clients and/or resource
> servers suffer from constraints arises.
>=20
> The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication
> and authorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples
> include Kerberos, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the
> Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and
> the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All these protocols enjoy
> widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all aim to solve a
> similar goal, at an abstract level, they offer quite different
> functions and utilize different message exchanges. These differences
> are motivated by the main deployment use cases they were designed for.
>=20
> Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already
> existing work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained
> environments. These protocols were, however, not optimized for
> constrained environments. Additional requirements that need to be taken
> into account are the lack of a suitable user-interface for obtaining
> the consent of the user and the inability of embedded devices to
> contact an authorization server in real-time with every access request
> due to intermittent connectivity, etc.
>=20
> This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for
> authentication and authorization to enable authorized access to
> resources in constrained environments. As a starting point, the working
> group will assume that access to resources offered by a resource server
> by a client devices takes place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS.
> Both resource server and client may be resource constraint. This access
> will be mediated by an authorization server, which does not suffer from
> the same resource limitations.
>=20
> Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and re-
> applied for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This
> requires relevant specifications to be reviewed for suitability,
> selecting a subset of them, restricting the options within each of the
> specifications. Some functionalities may, however, not be available in
> existing protocols and for those cases new functionality has to be
> standardized. Thus, existing work can be leveraged and the group
> benefits from available security analysis, implementation, and
> deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for federated
> authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deployment
> of IoT devices offering increased security.
>=20
> Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been made
> the working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also
> applicable beyond the use of CoAP and DTLS, which are the two main
> protocols the group will focus on for access to resources. In
> particular, the ability to use the developed solution over HTTP and TLS
> will be investigated. Furthermore, to guarantee smooth transition the
> integration with existing deployment will be studied. This particularly
> concerns the use of protocol translation proxies.
>=20
> To be successful this working group requires expertise in security,
> privacy, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained
> environment space. This work does not make the assumption that the
> party offering application layer services is always the same party
> offering network access services.
>=20
> The working group has the following tasks (in this order):
>=20
> 1) Use cases, requirements, and design criteria.
> [[Details pending mailing list discussion.]] This work will guide the
> identification of suitable protocol mechanisms.
>=20
> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for
> constrained environments.
>=20
> 3) Evaluation of the candidate solution for use with HTTP/TLS and proxy
> deployments.
> [[Details pending mailing list discussion.]]


From nobody Mon Mar 17 03:24:18 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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On 17 Mar 2014, at 10:30, Bert Greevenbosch =
<Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com> wrote:

>> 2) Selection of an authentication and authorization protocol for =
constrained environments.
>=20
> I think there is more to it than "selection", especially since we may =
need to make some adjustments or define something new for the =
constrained case.

Indeed.

> So I support G=F6ran's proposal to change the task, but I propose a =
slightly different version:
>=20
>> 2) Identify suitable authentication and authorization mechanisms, in =
particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access control suitable =
for CoAP resource access requests in constrained environments.
>=20
> What do you think?

We can try to weasel around this, but if this group is successful, the =
result will be the definition of certain new protocol components.
Reusing existing mechanisms, (abstract) protocols, or even encodings as =
much as possible is desirable, but there also is an objective to be met =
here.
This is not possible by stitching together a Frankenprotocol (which, by =
composing old elements in a new way, still would be a new protocol).

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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Subject: [Ace] 802.15.9
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Hi,

I think the charter should include the use of IEEE 802.15.9 KMP
protocols and development of API to provide channel binding towards
applications
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-roll-3.pdf
http://ieee802.org/15/par.html

br
Andrei

- -- 
Andrei Gurtov, PhD
Principal Scientist, Helsinki Institute for Information Technology HIIT
Adjunct Professor Aalto University, University of Oulu and University
of Helsinki
http://www.hiit.fi/~gurtov
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrei_Gurtov
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From nobody Mon Mar 17 03:35:28 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] 802.15.9
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Hi Andrei,

we should definitely track this work (whenever something becomes public).=


It is, however, my impression that this IEEE work is focused on an
authentication and key exchange solution on the link layer and we are
focusing on an application layer solution (which lead us to discuss the
dependency on CoAP). Is this correct?

While there are cases where only two neighbouring nodes talk to each
other I believe that this is not the only scenario people have in mind.

It does, however, raise the question between the link layer mechanism
and the application layer security story. If you want to optimize the
entire system then paying attention to the security mechanism at the
other layers obviously makes sense. In that sense it is understandable
that the 6tisch work was presented to us as well.

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/17/2014 11:26 AM, Andrei Gurtov wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> I think the charter should include the use of IEEE 802.15.9 KMP
> protocols and development of API to provide channel binding towards
> applications
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/84/slides/slides-84-roll-3.pdf
> http://ieee802.org/15/par.html
>=20
> br
> Andrei
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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Hi Carsten,

On Mar 17, 2014, at 6:23 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

> On 17 Mar 2014, at 10:30, Bert Greevenbosch =
<Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I think there is more to it than "selection", especially since we may =
need to make some adjustments or define something new for the =
constrained case.
>=20
> Indeed.

I agree with this, too.  I think the charter should be open to =
profiling, adjusting or extending existing security mechanisms to meet =
the needs of this environment.

>>> 2) Identify suitable authentication and authorization mechanisms, in =
particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access control suitable =
for CoAP resource access requests in constrained environments.
>>=20
>> What do you think?

I think this goes too far into the requirements space=85  I think we are =
planning to define the requirements and architecture as part of the =
charter, and I think that one area that needs a lot of discussion is =
what our requirements are for access control, and what roles the RS and =
AS will play in that.  For instance, we might decide that we want an =
attribute or role-based system where the authentication process returns =
various attributes and/or roles associated with the authenticated user, =
and that information is used by the RS to determine what access should =
be allowed.  In that case, the granularity of the access control could =
be application-specific and would be a matter of AS configuration and =
local implementation on the RS.

I want our charter to lean _strongly_ in the direction of preferring a =
solution that is based on existing security protocol standards, =
unless/until we can determine that none of them can meet the =
requirements, even with appropriate profiles, extensions or =
modifications.  I think that is pretty unlikely based on the breadth and =
variety of existing security protocols.  I think we should require a =
recharter to undertake development of a new security protocol.

So, I would propose something like this:

2) Selection of an existing authentication and authorization protocol =
that can serve as the basis of an authentication and authorization =
system for  constrained environments. =20

3) Definition of whatever profiles, extensions or modifications are =
required to make the selected authentication and authorization protocol =
suitable for constrained environments.

> We can try to weasel around this, but if this group is successful, the =
result will be the definition of certain new protocol components.
> Reusing existing mechanisms, (abstract) protocols, or even encodings =
as much as possible is desirable, but there also is an objective to be =
met here.
> This is not possible by stitching together a Frankenprotocol (which, =
by composing old elements in a new way, still would be a new protocol).

Depending on what you mean here, I might or might not agree=85

For instance, if we decide that an EAP-based approach could work in this =
environment (as it does for every wi-fi device that needs to join an =
802.11x-secured network), I think we might want to define an EAP method =
that leverages the existing crypto algorithms and security protocols =
available on the constrained device, based on the assumption that the =
device will also implement a constrained version of DTLS (as defined by =
the DICE WG).  Where would that fall in your view of the world?  I don't =
think it would be a Frankenprotocol at all, since EAP is designed to be =
extended that way.  There also wouldn't be much new protocol work, as an =
EAP-DTLS method could be pretty similar to the existing EAP-TLS method.  =
Assuming something like that could meet our as-yet-undetermined =
requirements for this environment, would you consider that to be a =
successful outcome?

Margaret





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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 17:10:07 +0000
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References: <532108F4.10007@gmx.net> <46A1DF3F04371240B504290A071B4DB63E463630@SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7E54736F-B1B0-4BFC-9BED-9B61939D8145@tzi.org> <028713D6-43AA-4A43-A25D-CFA86DE2917D@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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Hi Margret,

On 17/03/14 14:21, "Margaret Wasserman" <margaretw42@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Hi Carsten,
>
>On Mar 17, 2014, at 6:23 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>
>> On 17 Mar 2014, at 10:30, Bert Greevenbosch
>><Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I think there is more to it than "selection", especially since we may
>>>need to make some adjustments or define something new for the
>>>constrained case.
>>=20
>> Indeed.
>
>I agree with this, too.  I think the charter should be open to profiling,
>adjusting or extending existing security mechanisms to meet the needs of
>this environment.
>
>>>> 2) Identify suitable authentication and authorization mechanisms, in
>>>>particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access control suitable
>>>>for CoAP resource access requests in constrained environments.
>>>=20
>>> What do you think?
>
>I think this goes too far into the requirements space=8A  I think we are
>planning to define the requirements and architecture as part of the
>charter, and I think that one area that needs a lot of discussion is what
>our requirements are for access control, and what roles the RS and AS
>will play in that.  For instance, we might decide that we want an
>attribute or role-based system where the authentication process returns
>various attributes and/or roles associated with the authenticated user,
>and that information is used by the RS to determine what access should be
>allowed.  In that case, the granularity of the access control could be
>application-specific and would be a matter of AS configuration and local
>implementation on the RS.

I can see where you are coming from. The =B3in particular addressing dynami=
c
and fine grained access control . . .=B2 is a conclusion from the use case
and requirements draft. A better formulation would maybe have been  =B3in
particular *allowing* dynamic and fine grained access control . . .=B2 The
intent was not that all applications must have =B3fine granular=B2 access
policies, but that some applications require this so the solution must
support it.

We may completely disregard the previous work and redo the exercise, but I
believe that the support for dynamical changes of a client's rights and
application-specific granularity will remain a conclusion.

Forgetting for a moment that this is a preliminary conclusion, do you
still see a contradiction with this text and a solution based on an
attribute/role-based system where say the AS associated a client with
attributes/roles for the RS to match with locally specified rights?


>
>I want our charter to lean _strongly_ in the direction of preferring a
>solution that is based on existing security protocol standards,
>unless/until we can determine that none of them can meet the
>requirements, even with appropriate profiles, extensions or
>modifications.  I think that is pretty unlikely based on the breadth and
>variety of existing security protocols.  I think we should require a
>recharter to undertake development of a new security protocol.
>
>So, I would propose something like this:
>
>2) Selection of an existing authentication and authorization protocol
>that can serve as the basis of an authentication and authorization system
>for  constrained environments.
>
>3) Definition of whatever profiles, extensions or modifications are
>required to make the selected authentication and authorization protocol
>suitable for constrained environments.

While I certainly support the use an existing security protocol standard,
if feasible, I think that the process indicated here has a weakness: In
order to in step 2) assess that the selected protocol can serve as a basis
for constrained environments, a large part of the profiling and
modifications of step 3) must have already been performed.


G=F6ran

>
>> We can try to weasel around this, but if this group is successful, the
>>result will be the definition of certain new protocol components.
>> Reusing existing mechanisms, (abstract) protocols, or even encodings as
>>much as possible is desirable, but there also is an objective to be met
>>here.
>> This is not possible by stitching together a Frankenprotocol (which, by
>>composing old elements in a new way, still would be a new protocol).
>
>Depending on what you mean here, I might or might not agree=8A
>
>For instance, if we decide that an EAP-based approach could work in this
>environment (as it does for every wi-fi device that needs to join an
>802.11x-secured network), I think we might want to define an EAP method
>that leverages the existing crypto algorithms and security protocols
>available on the constrained device, based on the assumption that the
>device will also implement a constrained version of DTLS (as defined by
>the DICE WG).  Where would that fall in your view of the world?  I don't
>think it would be a Frankenprotocol at all, since EAP is designed to be
>extended that way.  There also wouldn't be much new protocol work, as an
>EAP-DTLS method could be pretty similar to the existing EAP-TLS method.
>Assuming something like that could meet our as-yet-undetermined
>requirements for this environment, would you consider that to be a
>successful outcome?
>
>Margaret
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ace mailing list
>Ace@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Mon Mar 17 12:59:24 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

--------------ms020902030602060304050700
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
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Regarding the point on EAP-TLS: It is unlikely we would need an EAP-DTLS =

as DTLS is an adaptation of TLS to work over datagrams. Similarly,=20
EAP-TLS (and EAP-TTLS) adapt TLS for use with EAP, which itself is a=20
datagram protocol and provides lock-step Request-Response and=20
fragmentation and reassembly support, like DTLS.

What may be important for constrained devices (and may be more of a=20
topic for LWIG) would be the ability to have a single TLS base for=20
handshake and record layers with a small set of common cipher suites=20
which could be reused across TLS, DTLS and EAP-TLS implementations.

Robert

On 17/03/2014 1:21 PM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> Hi Carsten,
>
> On Mar 17, 2014, at 6:23 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>
>> On 17 Mar 2014, at 10:30, Bert Greevenbosch <Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.=
com> wrote:
>>> I think there is more to it than "selection", especially since we may=
 need to make some adjustments or define something new for the constraine=
d case.
>> Indeed.
> I agree with this, too.  I think the charter should be open to profilin=
g, adjusting or extending existing security mechanisms to meet the needs =
of this environment.
>
>>>> 2) Identify suitable authentication and authorization mechanisms, in=
 particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access control suitable f=
or CoAP resource access requests in constrained environments.
>>> What do you think?
> I think this goes too far into the requirements space=85  I think we ar=
e planning to define the requirements and architecture as part of the cha=
rter, and I think that one area that needs a lot of discussion is what ou=
r requirements are for access control, and what roles the RS and AS will =
play in that.  For instance, we might decide that we want an attribute or=
 role-based system where the authentication process returns various attri=
butes and/or roles associated with the authenticated user, and that infor=
mation is used by the RS to determine what access should be allowed.  In =
that case, the granularity of the access control could be application-spe=
cific and would be a matter of AS configuration and local implementation =
on the RS.
>
> I want our charter to lean _strongly_ in the direction of preferring a =
solution that is based on existing security protocol standards, unless/un=
til we can determine that none of them can meet the requirements, even wi=
th appropriate profiles, extensions or modifications.  I think that is pr=
etty unlikely based on the breadth and variety of existing security proto=
cols.  I think we should require a recharter to undertake development of =
a new security protocol.
>
> So, I would propose something like this:
>
> 2) Selection of an existing authentication and authorization protocol t=
hat can serve as the basis of an authentication and authorization system =
for  constrained environments.
>
> 3) Definition of whatever profiles, extensions or modifications are req=
uired to make the selected authentication and authorization protocol suit=
able for constrained environments.
>
>> We can try to weasel around this, but if this group is successful, the=
 result will be the definition of certain new protocol components.
>> Reusing existing mechanisms, (abstract) protocols, or even encodings a=
s much as possible is desirable, but there also is an objective to be met=
 here.
>> This is not possible by stitching together a Frankenprotocol (which, b=
y composing old elements in a new way, still would be a new protocol).
> Depending on what you mean here, I might or might not agree=85
>
> For instance, if we decide that an EAP-based approach could work in thi=
s environment (as it does for every wi-fi device that needs to join an 80=
2.11x-secured network), I think we might want to define an EAP method tha=
t leverages the existing crypto algorithms and security protocols availab=
le on the constrained device, based on the assumption that the device wil=
l also implement a constrained version of DTLS (as defined by the DICE WG=
).  Where would that fall in your view of the world?  I don't think it wo=
uld be a Frankenprotocol at all, since EAP is designed to be extended tha=
t way.  There also wouldn't be much new protocol work, as an EAP-DTLS met=
hod could be pretty similar to the existing EAP-TLS method.  Assuming som=
ething like that could meet our as-yet-undetermined requirements for this=
 environment, would you consider that to be a successful outcome?
>
> Margaret
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>



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--------------ms020902030602060304050700--


From nobody Tue Mar 18 06:24:45 2014
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From: Rafa Marin Lopez <rafa@um.es>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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Hi Margaret, all

> Depending on what you mean here, I might or might not agree=85
>=20
> For instance, if we decide that an EAP-based approach could work in =
this environment

As part of a research activity here at the University of Murcia, we =
created an initial design of an authentication service based on EAP for =
CoAP sometime ago. In other words, CoAP messages are used to transport =
EAP between the CoAP client (EAP authenticator) and the CoAP server (EAP =
peer/ the constrained node). In particular, the EAP messages are =
directly transported in the CoAP message payload for this authentication =
service.  In this case, the EAP authenticator (CoAP client) can contact =
an external AAA server (which is one of the posible choices in ACE, as =
far as I have read).=20

Once EAP has finished, we bootstrap a security association between CoAP =
server and CoAP client based on the MSK. In our case, this security =
association might be based on DTLS or by using a new AUTH option we have =
defined to be included in any CoAP message (no need of DTLS in the =
second case).

We have restarted the work some months ago and we have now a very =
limited proof-of-concept with libcoap. It is still in PC platform but we =
have started to build the implementation in COOJA simulator (without =
DTLS so far). Nevertheless, our intention is also to test it with DTLS.

I guess this could be also categorized as an EAP-based approach, though =
we do not know if it will be interesting for ACE members. If people =
think it is, we can prepare a short I-D explaining what we have until =
now.

> (as it does for every wi-fi device that needs to join an =
802.11x-secured network), I think we might want to define an EAP method =
that leverages the existing crypto algorithms and security protocols =
available on the constrained device, based on the assumption that the =
device will also implement a constrained version of DTLS (as defined by =
the DICE WG).

In our case we have tested EAP-PSK since it uses AES-based cryptography. =
In fact, we have previous experience on that in real constrained devices =
(PANATIKI: A Network Access Control Implementation Based on PANA for IoT =
Devices http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/13/11/14888). But I agree that if =
we assume DTLS we may assume that an EAP-TLS method would be reasonable. =
Nevertheless, I agree with Robert that we may not need to design a new =
EAP method for that.

Just my 0.02 cents.

>  Where would that fall in your view of the world?  I don't think it =
would be a Frankenprotocol at all, since EAP is designed to be extended =
that way.  There also wouldn't be much new protocol work, as an EAP-DTLS =
method could be pretty similar to the existing EAP-TLS method.  Assuming =
something like that could meet our as-yet-undetermined requirements for =
this environment, would you consider that to be a successful outcome?
>=20
> Margaret
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

-------------------------------------------------------
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
30100 Murcia - Spain
Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
-------------------------------------------------------





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Importance: normal
From: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com>
To: Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>, "robert.cragie@gridmerge.com" <robert.cragie@gridmerge.com>
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: Rafa Marin Lopez <rafa@um.es>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:46:07 +0000
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Cc: Bert Greevenbosch <Bert.Greevenbosch@huawei.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com>, Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>, "robert.cragie@gridmerge.com" <robert.cragie@gridmerge.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:53:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:06:42 +0100
From: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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On 03/13/2014 03:37 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>
> I propose that there be a use case Informational ID, which over time,
> will transform into a roadmap/architectural document.  It will not be
> published "prior" to the standards track documents, but since it will
> be referenced by them all, they won't go forward either without it.
=2E..
> Pick someone to edit the use case document who really wants an RFC cred=
it,
> and their personal motiviation will get it done.

+1

I would do it "for the honour".

/Ludwig


--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:42:07 +0100
From: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>
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On 03/19/2014 11:06 AM, Ludwig Seitz wrote:
> On 03/13/2014 03:37 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>
>> I propose that there be a use case Informational ID, which over time,
>> will transform into a roadmap/architectural document.  It will not be
>> published "prior" to the standards track documents, but since it will
>> be referenced by them all, they won't go forward either without it.
> ...
>> Pick someone to edit the use case document who really wants an RFC
>> credit,
>> and their personal motiviation will get it done.
> 
> +1
> 
> I would do it "for the honour".

I would contribute.

Steffi


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--001a113a7b0c254b7e04f4f4f8d3
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Hi Rafa,

I would be very interested in hearing more about this work.  So, it would
be great if you could prepare an ID describing your implementation and the
results you achieved.

Thanks,
Margaret
On Mar 18, 2014 9:24 AM, "Rafa Marin Lopez" <rafa@um.es> wrote:

> Hi Margaret, all
>
> > Depending on what you mean here, I might or might not agree...
> >
> > For instance, if we decide that an EAP-based approach could work in this
> environment
>
> As part of a research activity here at the University of Murcia, we
> created an initial design of an authentication service based on EAP for
> CoAP sometime ago. In other words, CoAP messages are used to transport EAP
> between the CoAP client (EAP authenticator) and the CoAP server (EAP peer/
> the constrained node). In particular, the EAP messages are directly
> transported in the CoAP message payload for this authentication service.
>  In this case, the EAP authenticator (CoAP client) can contact an external
> AAA server (which is one of the posible choices in ACE, as far as I have
> read).
>
> Once EAP has finished, we bootstrap a security association between CoAP
> server and CoAP client based on the MSK. In our case, this security
> association might be based on DTLS or by using a new AUTH option we have
> defined to be included in any CoAP message (no need of DTLS in the second
> case).
>
> We have restarted the work some months ago and we have now a very limited
> proof-of-concept with libcoap. It is still in PC platform but we have
> started to build the implementation in COOJA simulator (without DTLS so
> far). Nevertheless, our intention is also to test it with DTLS.
>
> I guess this could be also categorized as an EAP-based approach, though we
> do not know if it will be interesting for ACE members. If people think it
> is, we can prepare a short I-D explaining what we have until now.
>
> > (as it does for every wi-fi device that needs to join an 802.11x-secured
> network), I think we might want to define an EAP method that leverages the
> existing crypto algorithms and security protocols available on the
> constrained device, based on the assumption that the device will also
> implement a constrained version of DTLS (as defined by the DICE WG).
>
> In our case we have tested EAP-PSK since it uses AES-based cryptography.
> In fact, we have previous experience on that in real constrained devices
> (PANATIKI: A Network Access Control Implementation Based on PANA for IoT
> Devices http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/13/11/14888). But I agree that if
> we assume DTLS we may assume that an EAP-TLS method would be reasonable.
> Nevertheless, I agree with Robert that we may not need to design a new EAP
> method for that.
>
> Just my 0.02 cents.
>
> >  Where would that fall in your view of the world?  I don't think it
> would be a Frankenprotocol at all, since EAP is designed to be extended
> that way.  There also wouldn't be much new protocol work, as an EAP-DTLS
> method could be pretty similar to the existing EAP-TLS method.  Assuming
> something like that could meet our as-yet-undetermined requirements for
> this environment, would you consider that to be a successful outcome?
> >
> > Margaret
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ace mailing list
> > Ace@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
> Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
> Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
> 30100 Murcia - Spain
> Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>

--001a113a7b0c254b7e04f4f4f8d3
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Hi Rafa,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I would be very interested in hearing more about this work.&=
nbsp; So, it would be great if you could prepare an ID describing your impl=
ementation and the results you achieved.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,<br>
Margaret</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mar 18, 2014 9:24 AM, &quot;Rafa Marin Lopez&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rafa@um.es">rafa@um.es</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=
=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Margaret, all<br>
<br>
&gt; Depending on what you mean here, I might or might not agree&hellip;<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; For instance, if we decide that an EAP-based approach could work in th=
is environment<br>
<br>
As part of a research activity here at the University of Murcia, we created=
 an initial design of an authentication service based on EAP for CoAP somet=
ime ago. In other words, CoAP messages are used to transport EAP between th=
e CoAP client (EAP authenticator) and the CoAP server (EAP peer/ the constr=
ained node). In particular, the EAP messages are directly transported in th=
e CoAP message payload for this authentication service. &nbsp;In this case,=
 the EAP authenticator (CoAP client) can contact an external AAA server (wh=
ich is one of the posible choices in ACE, as far as I have read).<br>

<br>
Once EAP has finished, we bootstrap a security association between CoAP ser=
ver and CoAP client based on the MSK. In our case, this security associatio=
n might be based on DTLS or by using a new AUTH option we have defined to b=
e included in any CoAP message (no need of DTLS in the second case).<br>

<br>
We have restarted the work some months ago and we have now a very limited p=
roof-of-concept with libcoap. It is still in PC platform but we have starte=
d to build the implementation in COOJA simulator (without DTLS so far). Nev=
ertheless, our intention is also to test it with DTLS.<br>

<br>
I guess this could be also categorized as an EAP-based approach, though we =
do not know if it will be interesting for ACE members. If people think it i=
s, we can prepare a short I-D explaining what we have until now.<br>
<br>
&gt; (as it does for every wi-fi device that needs to join an 802.11x-secur=
ed network), I think we might want to define an EAP method that leverages t=
he existing crypto algorithms and security protocols available on the const=
rained device, based on the assumption that the device will also implement =
a constrained version of DTLS (as defined by the DICE WG).<br>

<br>
In our case we have tested EAP-PSK since it uses AES-based cryptography. In=
 fact, we have previous experience on that in real constrained devices (PAN=
ATIKI: A Network Access Control Implementation Based on PANA for IoT Device=
s <a href=3D"http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/13/11/14888" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/13/11/14888</a>). But I agree that if we assum=
e DTLS we may assume that an EAP-TLS method would be reasonable. Neverthele=
ss, I agree with Robert that we may not need to design a new EAP method for=
 that.<br>

<br>
Just my 0.02 cents.<br>
<br>
&gt; &nbsp;Where would that fall in your view of the world? &nbsp;I don&#39=
;t think it would be a Frankenprotocol at all, since EAP is designed to be =
extended that way. &nbsp;There also wouldn&#39;t be much new protocol work,=
 as an EAP-DTLS method could be pretty similar to the existing EAP-TLS meth=
od. &nbsp;Assuming something like that could meet our as-yet-undetermined r=
equirements for this environment, would you consider that to be a successfu=
l outcome?<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Margaret<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ace mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------<br>
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD<br>
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)<br>
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia<br>
30100 Murcia - Spain<br>
Telf: <a href=3D"tel:%2B34868888501" value=3D"+34868888501">+34868888501</a=
> Fax: <a href=3D"tel:%2B34868884151" value=3D"+34868884151">+34868884151</=
a> e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:rafa@um.es">rafa@um.es</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--001a113a7b0c254b7e04f4f4f8d3--


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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com>, Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com>, "robert.cragie@gridmerge.com" <robert.cragie@gridmerge.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 09:04:11 +0000
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Cc: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5
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From: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com<mailto:margaretw42@gmail.co=
m>>
Reply-To: Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com<mailto:margaretw42@gmai=
l.com>>
Date: Tuesday 18 March 2014 14:37
To: Zach Shelby <Zach.Shelby@arm.com<mailto:Zach.Shelby@arm.com>>, "robert.=
cragie@gridmerge.com<mailto:robert.cragie@gridmerge.com>" <robert.cragie@gr=
idmerge.com<mailto:robert.cragie@gridmerge.com>>
Cc: "ace@ietf.org<mailto:ace@ietf.org>" <ace@ietf.org<mailto:ace@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.5

Publishing the requirements and use cases in an RFC is NOT the same thing a=
s gating our other work on publishing those things first -- I would object =
to a phased charter that requires us to publish our use cases and requireme=
nts as RFCs before we do any protocol work,

I agree

and I like the idea of using a wiki to collect and refine them.

We should remember, though, that we will need to involve a wide range of IE=
TF participants, including multiple IETF security experts, to be successful=
.  Not all of those people will have worked in the IoT/embedded space, so d=
ocumenting the use cases and requirements early in the process (on a wiki p=
age is fine) will be essential to allowing that wider set of IETF participa=
nts to engage constructively.

I agree and I do think we already have a document on a first set of use cas=
es and requirements to put in the hands of those security experts. Disregar=
ding the wrapping (draft or Wiki) I have heard very few comments about cont=
ent or structure.


I'd personally like to see the use cases and requirements captured in an ac=
hival form that can be referenced later, because I think the use cases, in =
particular, might be useful for later work.  I'd be perfectly happy with pu=
blishing them as RFCs later in the process, though.

If people would rather try to capture the major use cases and motivations i=
n the protocol spec instead, I guess that would work for me, but I would so=
mewhat prefer an uncluttered protocol spec that refers to supporting inform=
ational documents.

I support that. And we could use a Wiki first and then copy into a draft. W=
hat I=92d like to know is what are the concerns about the current draft or =
could we reuse the structure and have the Wiki as a medium for editing this=
 draft?


G=F6ran



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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Margaret Wasserman &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:margaretw42@gmail.com">margaretw42@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span>Margaret Wasserman &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:margaretw42@gmail.com">margaretw42@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday 18 March 2014 14:37<b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Zach Shelby &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:Zach.Shelby@arm.com">Zach.Shelby@arm.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:robert.cragie@gridmerge.com">robert.cragie@gridmerge.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:robert.cragie@gridmerge.com">robert.cragie@gridmerge.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:ace@iet=
f.org">ace@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Prop=
osal v0.5<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div>Publishing the requirements and use cases in an RFC is NOT the same th=
ing as gating our other work on publishing those things first -- I would ob=
ject to a phased charter that requires us to publish our use cases and requ=
irements as RFCs before we do any
 protocol work, </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div>and I like the idea of using a wiki to collect and refine them.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We should remember, though, that we will need to involve a wide range =
of IETF participants, including multiple IETF security experts, to be succe=
ssful. &nbsp;Not all of those people will have worked in the IoT/embedded s=
pace, so documenting the use cases and
 requirements early in the process (on a wiki page is fine) will be essenti=
al to allowing that wider set of IETF participants to engage constructively=
.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree and I do think we already have a document on a first set of us=
e cases and requirements to put in the hands of those security experts. Dis=
regarding the wrapping (draft or Wiki) I have heard very few comments about=
 content or structure.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>I'd personally like to see the use cases and requirements captured in =
an achival form that can be referenced later, because I think the use cases=
, in particular, might be useful for later work. &nbsp;I'd be perfectly hap=
py with publishing them as RFCs later
 in the process, though.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If people would rather try to capture the major use cases and motivati=
ons in the protocol spec instead, I guess that would work for me, but I wou=
ld somewhat prefer an uncluttered protocol spec that refers to supporting i=
nformational documents. &nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I support that. And we could use a Wiki first and then copy into a dra=
ft. What I=92d like to know is what are the concerns about the current draf=
t or could we reuse the structure and have the Wiki as a medium for editing=
 this draft?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>G=F6ran</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CF50667ABD7Fgoranselanderericssoncom_--


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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:40:36 +0100
From: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.6
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On 03/19/2014 09:46 AM, Likepeng wrote:
>>>> 2) Identify suitable authentication and authorization mechanisms, in=
 particular addressing dynamic and fine grained access control suitable f=
or CoAP resource access requests in constrained environments.
>
>> I think this goes too far into the requirements space=E2=80=A6
>
> Let's simplify that a little bit. How about this:
>
> Identify suitable authentication and authorization mechanisms suitable =
for resource access in constrained environments.
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>

Since you mention simplifying, I think we should also simplify and
condense the descriptive text in the charter. Currently it is quite
verbose and feels like it hides the purpose of the group behind a wall
of text.

/Ludwig

--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se





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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
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Hi Margaret, Kapeng

Many thanks for your interest. We'll do it, then.

Best Regards.

El 19/03/2014, a las 13:41, Margaret Wasserman <margaretw42@gmail.com> =
escribi=F3:

> Hi Rafa,
>=20
> I would be very interested in hearing more about this work.  So, it =
would be great if you could prepare an ID describing your implementation =
and the results you achieved.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Margaret
>=20
> On Mar 18, 2014 9:24 AM, "Rafa Marin Lopez" <rafa@um.es> wrote:
> Hi Margaret, all
>=20
> > Depending on what you mean here, I might or might not agree=85
> >
> > For instance, if we decide that an EAP-based approach could work in =
this environment
>=20
> As part of a research activity here at the University of Murcia, we =
created an initial design of an authentication service based on EAP for =
CoAP sometime ago. In other words, CoAP messages are used to transport =
EAP between the CoAP client (EAP authenticator) and the CoAP server (EAP =
peer/ the constrained node). In particular, the EAP messages are =
directly transported in the CoAP message payload for this authentication =
service.  In this case, the EAP authenticator (CoAP client) can contact =
an external AAA server (which is one of the posible choices in ACE, as =
far as I have read).
>=20
> Once EAP has finished, we bootstrap a security association between =
CoAP server and CoAP client based on the MSK. In our case, this security =
association might be based on DTLS or by using a new AUTH option we have =
defined to be included in any CoAP message (no need of DTLS in the =
second case).
>=20
> We have restarted the work some months ago and we have now a very =
limited proof-of-concept with libcoap. It is still in PC platform but we =
have started to build the implementation in COOJA simulator (without =
DTLS so far). Nevertheless, our intention is also to test it with DTLS.
>=20
> I guess this could be also categorized as an EAP-based approach, =
though we do not know if it will be interesting for ACE members. If =
people think it is, we can prepare a short I-D explaining what we have =
until now.
>=20
> > (as it does for every wi-fi device that needs to join an =
802.11x-secured network), I think we might want to define an EAP method =
that leverages the existing crypto algorithms and security protocols =
available on the constrained device, based on the assumption that the =
device will also implement a constrained version of DTLS (as defined by =
the DICE WG).
>=20
> In our case we have tested EAP-PSK since it uses AES-based =
cryptography. In fact, we have previous experience on that in real =
constrained devices (PANATIKI: A Network Access Control Implementation =
Based on PANA for IoT Devices =
http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/13/11/14888). But I agree that if we =
assume DTLS we may assume that an EAP-TLS method would be reasonable. =
Nevertheless, I agree with Robert that we may not need to design a new =
EAP method for that.
>=20
> Just my 0.02 cents.
>=20
> >  Where would that fall in your view of the world?  I don't think it =
would be a Frankenprotocol at all, since EAP is designed to be extended =
that way.  There also wouldn't be much new protocol work, as an EAP-DTLS =
method could be pretty similar to the existing EAP-TLS method.  Assuming =
something like that could meet our as-yet-undetermined requirements for =
this environment, would you consider that to be a successful outcome?
> >
> > Margaret
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ace mailing list
> > Ace@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
> Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
> Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
> 30100 Murcia - Spain
> Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
> -------------------------------------------------------
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

-------------------------------------------------------
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
30100 Murcia - Spain
Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
-------------------------------------------------------





--Apple-Mail=_49153A21-439B-4E11-B2CF-646332A25440
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi =
Margaret, Kapeng<div><br></div><div>Many thanks for your interest. We'll =
do it, then.</div><div><br></div><div>Best =
Regards.</div><div><br><div><div>El 19/03/2014, a las 13:41, Margaret =
Wasserman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:margaretw42@gmail.com">margaretw42@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
escribi=F3:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><p dir=3D"ltr">Hi Rafa,</p><p dir=3D"ltr">I would be very =
interested in hearing more about this work.&nbsp; So, it would be great =
if you could prepare an ID describing your implementation and the =
results you achieved.</p><p dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,<br>
Margaret</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mar 18, 2014 9:24 AM, "Rafa Marin Lopez" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rafa@um.es">rafa@um.es</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Margaret, all<br>
<br>
&gt; Depending on what you mean here, I might or might not agree=85<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; For instance, if we decide that an EAP-based approach could work in =
this environment<br>
<br>
As part of a research activity here at the University of Murcia, we =
created an initial design of an authentication service based on EAP for =
CoAP sometime ago. In other words, CoAP messages are used to transport =
EAP between the CoAP client (EAP authenticator) and the CoAP server (EAP =
peer/ the constrained node). In particular, the EAP messages are =
directly transported in the CoAP message payload for this authentication =
service. &nbsp;In this case, the EAP authenticator (CoAP client) can =
contact an external AAA server (which is one of the posible choices in =
ACE, as far as I have read).<br>

<br>
Once EAP has finished, we bootstrap a security association between CoAP =
server and CoAP client based on the MSK. In our case, this security =
association might be based on DTLS or by using a new AUTH option we have =
defined to be included in any CoAP message (no need of DTLS in the =
second case).<br>

<br>
We have restarted the work some months ago and we have now a very =
limited proof-of-concept with libcoap. It is still in PC platform but we =
have started to build the implementation in COOJA simulator (without =
DTLS so far). Nevertheless, our intention is also to test it with =
DTLS.<br>

<br>
I guess this could be also categorized as an EAP-based approach, though =
we do not know if it will be interesting for ACE members. If people =
think it is, we can prepare a short I-D explaining what we have until =
now.<br>
<br>
&gt; (as it does for every wi-fi device that needs to join an =
802.11x-secured network), I think we might want to define an EAP method =
that leverages the existing crypto algorithms and security protocols =
available on the constrained device, based on the assumption that the =
device will also implement a constrained version of DTLS (as defined by =
the DICE WG).<br>

<br>
In our case we have tested EAP-PSK since it uses AES-based cryptography. =
In fact, we have previous experience on that in real constrained devices =
(PANATIKI: A Network Access Control Implementation Based on PANA for IoT =
Devices <a href=3D"http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/13/11/14888" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/13/11/14888</a>). But I =
agree that if we assume DTLS we may assume that an EAP-TLS method would =
be reasonable. Nevertheless, I agree with Robert that we may not need to =
design a new EAP method for that.<br>

<br>
Just my 0.02 cents.<br>
<br>
&gt; &nbsp;Where would that fall in your view of the world? &nbsp;I =
don't think it would be a Frankenprotocol at all, since EAP is designed =
to be extended that way. &nbsp;There also wouldn't be much new protocol =
work, as an EAP-DTLS method could be pretty similar to the existing =
EAP-TLS method. &nbsp;Assuming something like that could meet our =
as-yet-undetermined requirements for this environment, would you =
consider that to be a successful outcome?<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Margaret<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ace mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------<br>
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD<br>
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)<br>
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia<br>
30100 Murcia - Spain<br>
Telf: <a href=3D"tel:%2B34868888501" =
value=3D"+34868888501">+34868888501</a> Fax: <a =
href=3D"tel:%2B34868884151" value=3D"+34868884151">+34868884151</a> =
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:rafa@um.es">rafa@um.es</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Ace mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/ace<br></blockquote></div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Courier;  font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; =
"><div>-------------------------------------------------------</div><div>R=
afael Marin Lopez, PhD</div><div>Dept. Information and Communications =
Engineering (DIIC)</div><div>Faculty of Computer Science-University of =
Murcia</div><div>30100 Murcia - Spain</div><div>Telf: +34868888501 Fax: =
+34868884151 e-mail: <a =
href=3D"mailto:rafa@um.es">rafa@um.es</a></div><div>----------------------=
---------------------------------</div><div><br></div></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_49153A21-439B-4E11-B2CF-646332A25440--


From nobody Sun Mar 23 15:59:38 2014
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Subject: [Ace] Summary of the "Constrained Authorization Server" Discussion
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Hi all,

we had a discussion on the list about the nature of the authorization
server and whether it is constrained in a way similarly to the resource
server.

My impression from the feedback is that we should see the authorization
server as a device that has sufficient network connectivity, is not
battery-powered, and has sufficient processing power and storage.

No changes or additions to the charter are necessary but we should
capture this observation in the use case/requirements document.

Ciao
Hannes


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From nobody Sun Mar 23 16:06:25 2014
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Hi all,

based on the feedback at the BOF we concluded that proxies should be
part of the WG investigation. What wasn't clear was when an
investigation should be conducted.

I am not sure how to interpret the lack of feedback.

I was hoping to get feedback from folks working in the CORE working
group on how they thought proxies work in combination with DTLS but no
feedback was provided.

I hope that Akbar and Phil provide a more detailed contribution as part
of the use case/requirements discussion.

I am currently inclined not to include text that states explicitly when
the proxy topic will be decided.

Ciao
Hannes


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Hi all,

I was hoping to get more feedback about adding the design consideration
document as a milestone but, unfortunately, there was not a lot of suppor=
t.

Maybe the work is a bit too abstract or relevant parts could be included
in the solution work itself.

My conclusion from the discussion is that we do not need an milestone
for this work.

Ciao
Hannes


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--=-=-=


Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
    > based on the feedback at the BOF we concluded that proxies should be
    > part of the WG investigation. What wasn't clear was when an
    > investigation should be conducted.

When you say proxies, I think you are talking about things which the
end points are aware of (and may have to trust).  It would include, but not
be limited to, CoAP/HTTP translators. (Well. CoAP-DTLS/HTTPS!)

Would we agree that the proxies are not transparent?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Sun Mar 23 22:52:25 2014
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> On 24.03.2014, at 00:06, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wro=
te:
>=20
> the proxy topic

I don't know what that is. There are proxy-like instances in the Berlin mode=
l. Various kinds of Proxies with various security roles could also be insert=
ed at various places.  Inserting proxies with no defined security everywhere=
 just means that DTLS becomes less useful or has to be transported over the p=
roxies. =20

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten=


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Hi Michael,

On 03/24/2014 03:00 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>=20
> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>     > based on the feedback at the BOF we concluded that proxies should=
 be
>     > part of the WG investigation. What wasn't clear was when an
>     > investigation should be conducted.
>=20
> When you say proxies, I think you are talking about things which the
> end points are aware of (and may have to trust).  It would include, but=
 not
> be limited to, CoAP/HTTP translators. (Well. CoAP-DTLS/HTTPS!)

During the discussions on the list I had to noticed that folks had
different use cases in mind. One was about protocol translation but
there are also cases that have nothing to do with protocol translation
but rather with the use of CoAP itself and how some seem to have assumed
how it works.

>=20
> Would we agree that the proxies are not transparent?

Transparency is a fuzzy term here.

Is a protocol translator transparent of not and the question is to whom
is it transparent?

I believe I am saying that we all have not thought about the proxy topic
enough to make a conclusion that could go into the charter and for that
reason I am trying to encourage those who have expertise in this field
to make contributions as early as possible.


Ciao
Hannes

>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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On 03/24/2014 03:00 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>
> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>      > based on the feedback at the BOF we concluded that proxies shoul=
d be
>      > part of the WG investigation. What wasn't clear was when an
>      > investigation should be conducted.
>
> When you say proxies, I think you are talking about things which the
> end points are aware of (and may have to trust).  It would include, but=
 not
> be limited to, CoAP/HTTP translators. (Well. CoAP-DTLS/HTTPS!)
>
> Would we agree that the proxies are not transparent?
>

Yes! They break end-to-end security, if authentication is based on DTLS.

/Ludwig


--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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From nobody Mon Mar 24 01:30:45 2014
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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Hi Carsten,

at the BOF we had suggestions to investigate the ability to have proxies
for protocol translation (as documented in
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-ace).

Then, following the meeting we had discussions on the list about how
plain CoAP proxies fit into the DTLS security model (see
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00153.html).

I was hoping that you and other CORE WG persons would provide input on
the latter aspect.

As I mentioned in my other mail I believe we need further input from
those who care about various forms of proxies as early as possible.

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/24/2014 06:52 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On 24.03.2014, at 00:06, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>=
 wrote:
>>
>> the proxy topic
>=20
> I don't know what that is. There are proxy-like instances in the Berlin=
 model. Various kinds of Proxies with various security roles could also b=
e inserted at various places.  Inserting proxies with no defined security=
 everywhere just means that DTLS becomes less useful or has to be transpo=
rted over the proxies. =20
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20


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From nobody Mon Mar 24 01:35:51 2014
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Hi all,

Kepeng and I have been wondering what the conclusion regarding the use
case/requirement discussion was.

We believe that there is consensus in the group to publish the
requirements and use cases as an informational RFC. We also have various
persons who are willing to contribute their time to this work (as
co-authors).

What is not quite clear to use is whether we should use a Wiki in the
interim period to allow more people to contribute their thoughts.

To close this issue please let us know whether you would
a) prefer to contribute text to a Wiki, or
b) via the mailing list (and let the draft authors / editors incorporate
the content into the document).

Ciao
Hannes


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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:01:11 +0100
From: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Summary: Documenting Use Cases and Requirements
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On 03/24/2014 01:32 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Kepeng and I have been wondering what the conclusion regarding the use
> case/requirement discussion was.
>
> We believe that there is consensus in the group to publish the
> requirements and use cases as an informational RFC. We also have variou=
s
> persons who are willing to contribute their time to this work (as
> co-authors).
>
> What is not quite clear to use is whether we should use a Wiki in the
> interim period to allow more people to contribute their thoughts.
>
> To close this issue please let us know whether you would
> a) prefer to contribute text to a Wiki, or

-1

> b) via the mailing list (and let the draft authors / editors incorporat=
e
> the content into the document).

+1

/Ludwig

--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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From nobody Mon Mar 24 04:11:45 2014
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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Hi Ludwig,

On 03/24/2014 09:27 AM, Ludwig Seitz wrote:
> On 03/24/2014 03:00 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>
>> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>>      > based on the feedback at the BOF we concluded that proxies
>> should be
>>      > part of the WG investigation. What wasn't clear was when an
>>      > investigation should be conducted.
>>
>> When you say proxies, I think you are talking about things which the
>> end points are aware of (and may have to trust).  It would include,
>> but not
>> be limited to, CoAP/HTTP translators. (Well. CoAP-DTLS/HTTPS!)
>>
>> Would we agree that the proxies are not transparent?
>>
>=20
> Yes! They break end-to-end security, if authentication is based on DTLS=
=2E

The question for me is whether the CORE working group had thought about
the use of DTLS with CoAP proxies where the DTLS exchange intentionally
terminates at the proxy. Of course, the term "end-to-end" has a
different meaning there since the end in that case is the proxy rather
than the final destination, such as a Web server.

Maybe we will come to the conclusion that proxies are not inline with
the desired security properties. More investigation will be needed but
from a charter point of view I think we shouldn't add text to the
charter about it; it appears to be premature and at a too detailed level.=


Ciao
Hannes

>=20
> /Ludwig
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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--=-=-=


Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
    >> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
    >> > based on the feedback at the BOF we concluded that proxies should be
    >> > part of the WG investigation. What wasn't clear was when an
    >> > investigation should be conducted.
    >>
    >> When you say proxies, I think you are talking about things which the
    >> end points are aware of (and may have to trust).  It would include, but not
    >> be limited to, CoAP/HTTP translators. (Well. CoAP-DTLS/HTTPS!)

    > During the discussions on the list I had to noticed that folks had
    > different use cases in mind. One was about protocol translation but
    > there are also cases that have nothing to do with protocol translation
    > but rather with the use of CoAP itself and how some seem to have assumed
    > how it works.

    >> Would we agree that the proxies are not transparent?

    > Transparency is a fuzzy term here.

    > Is a protocol translator transparent of not and the question is to whom
    > is it transparent?

Absent security, one can build a MITM translator that turns CoAP into HTTP,
maintaining what is essentially a 1:1 NAT (not NAPT).   That's a transparent
proxy: one which only end to end security will notice.

SIP proxies are not transparent.

    > I believe I am saying that we all have not thought about the proxy topic
    > enough to make a conclusion that could go into the charter and for that
    > reason I am trying to encourage those who have expertise in this field
    > to make contributions as early as possible.

We have to include
  1) non-transparent proxies in the model, for the same reasons it useful
     for SIP.  We need to define how to trust them, and what they do with
     the authorization tokens.  It must be possible to observe the presence
     of the proxy for audit purposes, and I would not have to give them
     superuser.

  2) a mechanism for what would otherwise appear to be a MITM transparent
     proxy to make itself known.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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--=-=-=


    > On 03/24/2014 01:32 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
    >> Hi all,
    >>
    >> Kepeng and I have been wondering what the conclusion regarding the use
    >> case/requirement discussion was.
    >>
    >> We believe that there is consensus in the group to publish the
    >> requirements and use cases as an informational RFC. We also have various
    >> persons who are willing to contribute their time to this work (as
    >> co-authors).

But that the milestones not show it as a pre-requiste (critical path) towards
solutions.

    >>
    >> What is not quite clear to use is whether we should use a Wiki in the
    >> interim period to allow more people to contribute their thoughts.
    >>
    >> To close this issue please let us know whether you would
    >> a) prefer to contribute text to a Wiki, or

Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se> wrote:
    > -1

-2

    >> b) via the mailing list (and let the draft authors / editors incorporate
    >> the content into the document).

    > +1

+2

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




--=-=-=
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--=-=-=--


From nobody Mon Mar 24 08:46:26 2014
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Hi Michael,

I agree that someone should look at this and I am curious who would be
doing that.

Maybe the CORE working group would be a good place since they are
dealing with proxies in general already (e.g., mirror server, sleeping
proxy).

Maybe it is best done in this group (since there is this security focus).=


What is your take? Would you want to work on this topic?

Ciao
Hannes


On 03/24/2014 01:25 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>=20
> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>     >> Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>     >> > based on the feedback at the BOF we concluded that proxies sho=
uld be
>     >> > part of the WG investigation. What wasn't clear was when an
>     >> > investigation should be conducted.
>     >>
>     >> When you say proxies, I think you are talking about things which=
 the
>     >> end points are aware of (and may have to trust).  It would inclu=
de, but not
>     >> be limited to, CoAP/HTTP translators. (Well. CoAP-DTLS/HTTPS!)
>=20
>     > During the discussions on the list I had to noticed that folks ha=
d
>     > different use cases in mind. One was about protocol translation b=
ut
>     > there are also cases that have nothing to do with protocol transl=
ation
>     > but rather with the use of CoAP itself and how some seem to have =
assumed
>     > how it works.
>=20
>     >> Would we agree that the proxies are not transparent?
>=20
>     > Transparency is a fuzzy term here.
>=20
>     > Is a protocol translator transparent of not and the question is t=
o whom
>     > is it transparent?
>=20
> Absent security, one can build a MITM translator that turns CoAP into H=
TTP,
> maintaining what is essentially a 1:1 NAT (not NAPT).   That's a transp=
arent
> proxy: one which only end to end security will notice.
>=20
> SIP proxies are not transparent.
>=20
>     > I believe I am saying that we all have not thought about the prox=
y topic
>     > enough to make a conclusion that could go into the charter and fo=
r that
>     > reason I am trying to encourage those who have expertise in this =
field
>     > to make contributions as early as possible.
>=20
> We have to include
>   1) non-transparent proxies in the model, for the same reasons it usef=
ul
>      for SIP.  We need to define how to trust them, and what they do wi=
th
>      the authorization tokens.  It must be possible to observe the pres=
ence
>      of the proxy for audit purposes, and I would not have to give them=

>      superuser.
>=20
>   2) a mechanism for what would otherwise appear to be a MITM transpare=
nt
>      proxy to make itself known.
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20
>=20


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--=-=-=


Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
    > I agree that someone should look at this and I am curious who would be
    > doing that.

    > Maybe the CORE working group would be a good place since they are
    > dealing with proxies in general already (e.g., mirror server, sleeping
    > proxy).

    > Maybe it is best done in this group (since there is this security focus).

    > What is your take? Would you want to work on this topic?

I believe that it must be done in ACE, because, when providing any kind of
auhorization token, it may be necessary to provide pieces of it to the proxy
as well.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Mon Mar 24 11:40:27 2014
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 18:40:59 +0000
From: Robert Cragie <robert.cragie@gridmerge.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Summary: Documenting Use Cases and Requirements
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I tend to agree - if an RFC is going to be produced and there are=20
appointed editors, the use of a Wiki doesn't really seem to offer much=20
benefit. Also agree with the point about it not being a gating item.

Robert

On 24/03/2014 12:33 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>      > On 03/24/2014 01:32 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>      >> Hi all,
>      >>
>      >> Kepeng and I have been wondering what the conclusion regarding =
the use
>      >> case/requirement discussion was.
>      >>
>      >> We believe that there is consensus in the group to publish the
>      >> requirements and use cases as an informational RFC. We also hav=
e various
>      >> persons who are willing to contribute their time to this work (=
as
>      >> co-authors).
>
> But that the milestones not show it as a pre-requiste (critical path) t=
owards
> solutions.
>
>      >>
>      >> What is not quite clear to use is whether we should use a Wiki =
in the
>      >> interim period to allow more people to contribute their thought=
s.
>      >>
>      >> To close this issue please let us know whether you would
>      >> a) prefer to contribute text to a Wiki, or
>
> Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se> wrote:
>      > -1
>
> -2
>
>      >> b) via the mailing list (and let the draft authors / editors in=
corporate
>      >> the content into the document).
>
>      > +1
>
> +2
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>   -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


--------------020901010906040502030609
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    I tend to agree - if an RFC is going to be produced and there are
    appointed editors, the use of a Wiki doesn't really seem to offer
    much benefit. Also agree with the point about it not being a gating
    item.<br>
    <br>
    Robert<br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 24/03/2014 12:33 PM, Michael
      Richardson wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:24128.1395664402@sandelman.ca" type=3D"cite">=

      <pre wrap=3D"">
    &gt; On 03/24/2014 01:32 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
    &gt;&gt; Hi all,
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; Kepeng and I have been wondering what the conclusion regardi=
ng the use
    &gt;&gt; case/requirement discussion was.
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; We believe that there is consensus in the group to publish t=
he
    &gt;&gt; requirements and use cases as an informational RFC. We also =
have various
    &gt;&gt; persons who are willing to contribute their time to this wor=
k (as
    &gt;&gt; co-authors).

But that the milestones not show it as a pre-requiste (critical path) tow=
ards
solutions.

    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; What is not quite clear to use is whether we should use a Wi=
ki in the
    &gt;&gt; interim period to allow more people to contribute their thou=
ghts.
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; To close this issue please let us know whether you would
    &gt;&gt; a) prefer to contribute text to a Wiki, or

Ludwig Seitz <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:ludwig@sic=
s.se">&lt;ludwig@sics.se&gt;</a> wrote:
    &gt; -1

-2

    &gt;&gt; b) via the mailing list (and let the draft authors / editors=
 incorporate
    &gt;&gt; the content into the document).

    &gt; +1

+2

--
Michael Richardson <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:mcr+=
IETF@sandelman.ca">&lt;mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca&gt;</a>, Sandelman Software =
Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



</pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ie=
tf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/ace">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:50:06 +0100
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CoAP provides two (syntactically different) ways for a client (or
intermediary in the role of a client) to perform a request:
(I'm using representation retrieval as example WOLOG.)

A.) the client requests a remote endpoint to return a representation
of a resource located _in that endpoint's namespace_.

B.) the client requests a remote endpoint to return a representation
of a resource located _in another endpoint's namespace_.

In both cases, it's generally up to the remote endpoint how it obtains
the representation of the target resource, as long as the result *is*
a representation of the target resource.
For example, in A., the remote endpoint can serve a local file (the
endpoint is then typically called a "server"), return the output of a
CGI script ("CGI gateway"), obtain the representation from an HTTP
server ("cross-protocol proxy"), or obtain the representation from
another CoAP remote endpoint ("reverse proxy"). In B., the remote
endpoint is generally expected to obtain the representation by
requesting it from the endpoint specified in the request URI ("forward
proxy").

In both cases, the client has no way to verify that the obtained
result is indeed a representation of the target resource. It must
trust the remote endpoint that it returns the correct representation.
DTLS just secures the transmission of the representation from the
remote endpoint to the client.

(AFAIK, HTTP works exactly the same way.)

So, I would say that

- ACE should consider forward proxies, reverse proxies and potentially
cross-protocol proxies such that one of these can obtain a
representation of a resource that a client is authorized to access on
behalf of that client; and

- ACE should not consider remote endpoints that cannot be trusted to
correctly return a representation of a target resource (as this
concerns the general security of CoAP which should be addressed in
CoRE).

Klaus


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From: Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org>
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Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org> wrote:

> (AFAIK, HTTP works exactly the same way.)
>

I forgot that HTTP has tunnels [1]. CoAP doesn't have tunnels.

Klaus

[1]  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-26#page-10

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Klaus Hartke &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hartke@tzi.org">hartke@tzi.org</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">(AFAIK, HTTP works exactly the same=
 way.)<br>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I forgot that HTTP has tunnels [1]. CoAP d=
oesn&#39;t have tunnels.</div><div><br></div><div>Klaus</div><div><br></div=
><div>[1]=A0=A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-=
messaging-26#page-10">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-mess=
aging-26#page-10</a></div>

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... But it would not be hard to add them if there is a point.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-coap-misc-26#appendix-A.6 shows a s=
tateful way.=20
Or http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schmertmann-dice-codtls-00 could be exte=
nded to also carry data.=20

For coap-to-coap, we didn't add these as so far nobody saw a point. Maybe th=
ere is one for cross-proxying. But, as Hannes said, we need to understand th=
e use cases first.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten=20

> On 24.03.2014, at 22:41, Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> CoAP doesn't have tunnels.

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>... But it would not be hard to add th=
em if there is a point.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-bormann-coap-misc-26#appendix-A.6">https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-bormann-coap-misc-26#appendix-A.6</a>&nbsp;shows a stateful way.&=
nbsp;</div><div>Or&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schmertm=
ann-dice-codtls-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schmertmann-dice-codtls=
-00</a>&nbsp;could be extended to also carry data.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div=
><div>For coap-to-coap, we didn't add these as so far nobody saw a point. Ma=
ybe there is one for cross-proxying. But, as Hannes said, we need to underst=
and the use cases first.</div><div><br></div><div>Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten&n=
bsp;<br></div><div><br>On 24.03.2014, at 22:41, Klaus Hartke &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:hartke@tzi.org">hartke@tzi.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div>CoAP doesn't have tunnels.</div><div></div></blockquote=
></body></html>=

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Hi Klaus,

thanks for the description. Since I am not sure I understood it
correctly I have a couple of basic questions.

On 03/24/2014 08:50 PM, Klaus Hartke wrote:
> CoAP provides two (syntactically different) ways for a client (or
> intermediary in the role of a client) to perform a request:
> (I'm using representation retrieval as example WOLOG.)
>=20
> A.) the client requests a remote endpoint to return a representation
> of a resource located _in that endpoint's namespace_.
>=20
> B.) the client requests a remote endpoint to return a representation
> of a resource located _in another endpoint's namespace_.

The client device will start with a specific FQDN and will start a DTLS
handshake with that server. Where does the "requests a remote endpoint
to return ...." come into the play?



>=20
> In both cases, it's generally up to the remote endpoint how it obtains
> the representation of the target resource, as long as the result *is*
> a representation of the target resource.
> For example, in A., the remote endpoint can serve a local file (the
> endpoint is then typically called a "server"), return the output of a
> CGI script ("CGI gateway"), obtain the representation from an HTTP
> server ("cross-protocol proxy"), or obtain the representation from
> another CoAP remote endpoint ("reverse proxy"). In B., the remote
> endpoint is generally expected to obtain the representation by
> requesting it from the endpoint specified in the request URI ("forward
> proxy").
>=20
> In both cases, the client has no way to verify that the obtained
> result is indeed a representation of the target resource. It must
> trust the remote endpoint that it returns the correct representation.
> DTLS just secures the transmission of the representation from the
> remote endpoint to the client.
>=20
> (AFAIK, HTTP works exactly the same way.)

In the HTTPS case the story is as follows:

* The client contacts the server behind a https://www.ietf.org (after
doing a DNS look-up) using TLS.

* It gets the cert from the server.

* The client compares the content of the cert with what it had initially
requested to ensure it talks to the right server.

The TLS will prevent any proxy along the path to cache the data (since
it is encrypted).

So, I am not sure how this compares to CoAP based on your description.

Ciao
Hannes


>=20
> So, I would say that
>=20
> - ACE should consider forward proxies, reverse proxies and potentially
> cross-protocol proxies such that one of these can obtain a
> representation of a resource that a client is authorized to access on
> behalf of that client; and
>=20
> - ACE should not consider remote endpoints that cannot be trusted to
> correctly return a representation of a target resource (as this
> concerns the general security of CoAP which should be addressed in
> CoRE).
>=20
> Klaus
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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From: Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:48:07 +0100
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Hi Hannes,

here are a few examples. In each example, the client wants to obtain a
representation of {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource. All
examples work for both CoAP and HTTP, except for the last which only
works for HTTP.

Example 1: Client---Origin Server[example.org]

1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to example.org
2. The client requests a representation of the resource
    /path/to/resource by sending a GET request message
3. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file to the client

Example 2: Client---Reverse Proxy[example.org]---Origin Server[example.net]

1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to example.org
2. The client requests a representation of the resource /path/to/resource
3. The reverse proxy chooses to satisfy the request by obtaining the
    representation of {coaps,https}://example.net/some/other/resource
    a. The reverse proxy resolves and establishes a secure connection
        to example.net
    b. The reverse proxy requests a representation of the resource
        /some/other/resource
    c. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file
        to the reverse proxy
4. The reverse proxies serves the representation to the client

Example 3: Client---Forward Proxy[proxy.example]---Origin Server[example.org]

1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to proxy.example
2. The client requests a representation of the resource
    {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource
3. The forward proxy satisfies the request by obtaining the
    representation of {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource
    a. The forward proxy resolves and establishes a secure connection
        to example.org
    b. The forward proxy requests a representation of the resource
        /path/to/resource
    c. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file
        to the forward proxy
4. The forward proxy serves the representation to the client

Example 4: Client---Tunnel[tunnel.example]---Origin Server[example.org]

1. The client resolves and establishes an unsecured connection to tunnel.example
2. The client requests the tunnel to establish an unsecured connection
    to example.org and to act as a blind relay between the two connections
3. The tunnel satisfies the request by resolving and establishing an
    unsecured connection to example.org
4. The client establishes a secure connection to the origin server
    through the tunnel
5. The client requests a representation of the resource /path/to/resource
6. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file to the client

Does that answer your questions?

Klaus


On 25 March 2014 09:47, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi Klaus,
>
> thanks for the description. Since I am not sure I understood it
> correctly I have a couple of basic questions.
>
> On 03/24/2014 08:50 PM, Klaus Hartke wrote:
>> CoAP provides two (syntactically different) ways for a client (or
>> intermediary in the role of a client) to perform a request:
>> (I'm using representation retrieval as example WOLOG.)
>>
>> A.) the client requests a remote endpoint to return a representation
>> of a resource located _in that endpoint's namespace_.
>>
>> B.) the client requests a remote endpoint to return a representation
>> of a resource located _in another endpoint's namespace_.
>
> The client device will start with a specific FQDN and will start a DTLS
> handshake with that server. Where does the "requests a remote endpoint
> to return ...." come into the play?
>
>
>
>>
>> In both cases, it's generally up to the remote endpoint how it obtains
>> the representation of the target resource, as long as the result *is*
>> a representation of the target resource.
>> For example, in A., the remote endpoint can serve a local file (the
>> endpoint is then typically called a "server"), return the output of a
>> CGI script ("CGI gateway"), obtain the representation from an HTTP
>> server ("cross-protocol proxy"), or obtain the representation from
>> another CoAP remote endpoint ("reverse proxy"). In B., the remote
>> endpoint is generally expected to obtain the representation by
>> requesting it from the endpoint specified in the request URI ("forward
>> proxy").
>>
>> In both cases, the client has no way to verify that the obtained
>> result is indeed a representation of the target resource. It must
>> trust the remote endpoint that it returns the correct representation.
>> DTLS just secures the transmission of the representation from the
>> remote endpoint to the client.
>>
>> (AFAIK, HTTP works exactly the same way.)
>
> In the HTTPS case the story is as follows:
>
> * The client contacts the server behind a https://www.ietf.org (after
> doing a DNS look-up) using TLS.
>
> * It gets the cert from the server.
>
> * The client compares the content of the cert with what it had initially
> requested to ensure it talks to the right server.
>
> The TLS will prevent any proxy along the path to cache the data (since
> it is encrypted).
>
> So, I am not sure how this compares to CoAP based on your description.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
>>
>> So, I would say that
>>
>> - ACE should consider forward proxies, reverse proxies and potentially
>> cross-protocol proxies such that one of these can obtain a
>> representation of a resource that a client is authorized to access on
>> behalf of that client; and
>>
>> - ACE should not consider remote endpoints that cannot be trusted to
>> correctly return a representation of a target resource (as this
>> concerns the general security of CoAP which should be addressed in
>> CoRE).
>>
>> Klaus


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--=-=-=


I'm going to keep just the step two, because it's where the differences are.

Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org> wrote:
    > 2. The client requests a representation of the resource
    >        /path/to/resource by sending a GET request message

    > 2. The client requests a representation of the resource
    >         /path/to/resource
    > 2. The client requests a representation of the resource
    >         {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource

    > 2. The client requests the tunnel to establish an unsecured connection
    >         to example.org and to act as a blind relay between the two
    >         connections

There is a fifth situation which we try never to talk about:

Example 5: Client---TransparentProxy[proxy.example]--Origin Server[example.org]

1. client opens a connection to example.org.
   TCP connection is intercepted (think NAPT, not perpass) by proxy.example.
2. client requests a representation of the resource /path/to/resource
3. proxy.example, connects to real example.org (by IP, which it observed in
   the TCP getsockname()), requests resource, returns it to client.

This is not a blind relay tunnel.  This is how hundreds of firewalls
that do virus scanning whether as a bump in the stack, bump in the cord,
or network device work (for good or bad!)

The relevant situation that I understand, and which I think might want to
support is:

Example 6: Client---HTTP/CoAPProxy[proxy.example]--Origin Server[example.org]

1. client opens a connection to example.org.
   TCP/HTTPS connection is intercepted (think NAPT, not perpass) by
   proxy.example.

2. client requests a representation of the resource /path/to/resource

3. proxy.example, connects to real example.org by CoAP/DTLS
   (by IP, which it observed in the TCP getsockname()),
   requests resource, returns it to client, possibly caching the result.

Note that if assume the real address of example.org is not the same
as the address that the client saw, (which given that v6 has many more
addresses to play with...) then this is really closer to example 2.
It just might be that the reverse proxy has been given an algorithm
to map blahblah::1234 -> hahaha::1234, rather than having every single
one of them preconfigured.

I want to be able to do this securely such that the this man-in-the-middle
is clearly authorized to be in the middle, and with an audit trail that
becomes visible to both client and origin servers.

It's also clear to me that the authorization on the left probably has to
play nicely with OAuth2.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




--=-=-=
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--=-=-=--


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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ACE Charter Proposal v0.7
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 02:48:38 +0000
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Subject: [Ace] ACE Charter Proposal v0.7
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Hello all,

Based on the recent discussions in the mailing list, Hannes and I have prov=
ided the ACE charter proposal v0.7:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/wiki/ACE_charter#

There is no change to the descriptive text.

We mainly change the task list and add milestones.

Do you think the charter is ready to go?

Please indicate your opinion, whether you like it or not, and also your com=
ments/suggestions.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng & Hannes


Draft Charter V0.7 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Envir=
onment (ACE)

The IETF has recently developed protocols for use in environments where net=
work nodes are limited in CPU, memory, and power. It was observed that Inte=
rnet protocols can be applied to these constrained environments, often only=
 requiring minor tweaking and profiling. In other cases, new protocols have=
 been defined to address the specific requirements of constrained devices a=
nd networks. An example of such a protocol is the Constrained Application P=
rotocol (CoAP).

As in other environments, authentication and authorization question also ar=
ise in environments with constrained nodes and networks. For example, a doo=
r lock has to authorize the person seeking access using a "digital key". Wh=
ere are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital key commun=
icate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an authorization server to=
 obtain authorization information? How can access be granted to other perso=
ns temporarily? How can access be revoked? These types of questions have be=
en answered by existing protocols for use cases outside the constrained env=
ironment. But in constrained environment, additional requirements pose chal=
lenges for the use of various security protocols. In particular, the need f=
or a dynamic and fine grained access control mechanism whereby clients and/=
or resource servers suffer from constraints arises.

The IETF has a long history in developing three party authentication and au=
thorization protocols for distributed environments. Examples include Kerber=
os, the Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication, Authorization,=
 and Accounting (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web Authorization Protocol (O=
Auth). All these protocols enjoy widespread deployment on the Internet. Alt=
hough they all aim to solve a similar goal, at an abstract level, they offe=
r quite different functions and utilize different message exchanges. These =
differences are motivated by the main deployment use cases they were design=
ed for.

Requirements derived from use cases indicate the suitability of already exi=
sting work, such as OAuth, as a solution for constrained environments. Thes=
e protocols were, however, not optimized for constrained environments. Addi=
tional requirements that need to be taken into account are the lack of a su=
itable user-interface for obtaining the consent of the user and the inabili=
ty of embedded devices to contact an authorization server in real-time with=
 every access request due to intermittent connectivity, etc.

This working group therefore aims for a standardized solution for authentic=
ation and authorization to enable authorized access to resources in constra=
ined environments. As a starting point, the working group will assume that =
access to resources offered by a resource server by a client devices takes =
place using CoAP and is protected by DTLS. Both resource server and client =
may be resource constraint. This access will be mediated by an authorizatio=
n server, which does not suffer from the same resource limitations.

Existing authentication and authorization protocols are used and re-applied=
 for use with constrained devices, where applicable. This requires relevant=
 specifications to be reviewed for suitability, selecting a subset of them,=
 restricting the options within each of the specifications. Some functional=
ities may, however, not be available in existing protocols and for those ca=
ses new functionality has to be standardized. Thus, existing work can be le=
veraged and the group benefits from available security analysis, implementa=
tion, and deployment experience. Moreover, a standardized solution for fede=
rated authentication and authorization will help to stimulate the deploymen=
t of IoT devices offering increased security.

Once progress in identifying suitable candidate solutions has been made the=
 working group will verify whether the same mechanism are also applicable b=
eyond the use of CoAP and DTLS, which are the two main protocols the group =
will focus on for access to resources. In particular, the ability to use th=
e developed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated. Furthermore, t=
o guarantee smooth transition the integration with existing deployment will=
 be studied. This particularly concerns the use of protocol translation pro=
xies.

To be successful this working group requires expertise in security, privacy=
, and a good understanding of usability in the constrained environment spac=
e. This work does not make the assumption that the party offering applicati=
on layer services is always the same party offering network access services=
.

The working group has the following tasks:

1) Use cases and requirements

2) Identification of authentication and authorization mechanisms suitable f=
or resource access in constrained environments.

Milestones:

Jul 2014 Submit "Use cases and Requirements" as WG item.

Dec 2014 Submit "Authentication and Authorization Solution" as WG item.

Jul 2015 Submit "Use cases and Requirements" document to IESG for publicati=
on as informational RFC.

Jul 2016 Submit "Authentication and Authorization Solution" specification t=
o IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard.



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Based on the recent discussions=
 in the mailing list, Hannes and I have provided the ACE charter proposal v=
0.7:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.or=
g/wg/core/trac/wiki/ACE_charter#">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/wiki/A=
CE_charter#</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">There is no change to the descr=
iptive text.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We mainly change the task list =
and add milestones.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Do you think the charter is rea=
dy to go? <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please indicate your opinion, w=
hether you like it or not, and also your comments/suggestions.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Kepeng &amp; Hannes<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Draf=
t Charter V0.7 - Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environme=
nt (ACE)</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">The IETF has recently develop=
ed protocols for use in environments where network nodes are limited in CPU=
, memory, and power. It was observed that Internet protocols
 can be applied to these constrained environments, often only requiring min=
or tweaking and profiling. In other cases, new protocols have been defined =
to address the specific requirements of constrained devices and networks. A=
n example of such a protocol is
 the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">As in other environments, aut=
hentication and authorization question also arise in environments with cons=
trained nodes and networks. For example, a door lock has
 to authorize the person seeking access using a &quot;digital key&quot;. Wh=
ere are the authorization decisions stored? How does the digital key commun=
icate with the lock? Does the lock interact with an authorization server to=
 obtain authorization information? How can
 access be granted to other persons temporarily? How can access be revoked?=
 These types of questions have been answered by existing protocols for use =
cases outside the constrained environment. But in constrained environment, =
additional requirements pose challenges
 for the use of various security protocols. In particular, the need for a d=
ynamic and fine grained access control mechanism whereby clients and/or res=
ource servers suffer from constraints arises.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">The IETF has a long history i=
n developing three party authentication and authorization protocols for dis=
tributed environments. Examples include Kerberos, the Public
 Key Infrastructure (PKI), the Authentication, Authorization, and Accountin=
g (AAA) infrastructure, and the Web Authorization Protocol (OAuth). All the=
se protocols enjoy widespread deployment on the Internet. Although they all=
 aim to solve a similar goal, at
 an abstract level, they offer quite different functions and utilize differ=
ent message exchanges. These differences are motivated by the main deployme=
nt use cases they were designed for.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">Requirements derived from use=
 cases indicate the suitability of already existing work, such as OAuth, as=
 a solution for constrained environments. These protocols
 were, however, not optimized for constrained environments. Additional requ=
irements that need to be taken into account are the lack of a suitable user=
-interface for obtaining the consent of the user and the inability of embed=
ded devices to contact an authorization
 server in real-time with every access request due to intermittent connecti=
vity, etc.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">This working group therefore =
aims for a standardized solution for authentication and authorization to en=
able authorized access to resources in constrained environments.
 As a starting point, the working group will assume that access to resource=
s offered by a resource server by a client devices takes place using CoAP a=
nd is protected by DTLS. Both resource server and client may be resource co=
nstraint. This access will be mediated
 by an authorization server, which does not suffer from the same resource l=
imitations.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">Existing authentication and a=
uthorization protocols are used and re-applied for use with constrained dev=
ices, where applicable. This requires relevant specifications
 to be reviewed for suitability, selecting a subset of them, restricting th=
e options within each of the specifications. Some functionalities may, howe=
ver, not be available in existing protocols and for those cases new functio=
nality has to be standardized. Thus,
 existing work can be leveraged and the group benefits from available secur=
ity analysis, implementation, and deployment experience. Moreover, a standa=
rdized solution for federated authentication and authorization will help to=
 stimulate the deployment of IoT
 devices offering increased security. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">Once progress in identifying =
suitable candidate solutions has been made the working group will verify wh=
ether the same mechanism are also applicable beyond the
 use of CoAP and DTLS, which are the two main protocols the group will focu=
s on for access to resources. In particular, the ability to use the develop=
ed solution over HTTP and TLS will be investigated. Furthermore, to guarant=
ee smooth transition the integration
 with existing deployment will be studied. This particularly concerns the u=
se of protocol translation proxies.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">To be successful this working=
 group requires expertise in security, privacy, and a good understanding of=
 usability in the constrained environment space. This work
 does not make the assumption that the party offering application layer ser=
vices is always the same party offering network access services.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">The =
working group has the following tasks:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;ser=
if&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">1) U=
se cases and requirements</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;colo=
r:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">2) I=
dentification of authentication and authorization mechanisms suitable for r=
esource access in constrained environments.</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quo=
t;serif&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Mile=
stones:</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Jul =
2014 Submit &#8220;Use cases and Requirements&#8221; as WG item.</span></st=
rong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Dec =
2014 Submit &#8220;Authentication and Authorization Solution&#8221; as WG i=
tem.</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Jul =
2015 Submit &#8220;Use cases and Requirements&#8221; document to IESG for p=
ublication as informational RFC.</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&qu=
ot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Jul =
2016 Submit &#8220;Authentication and Authorization Solution&#8221; specifi=
cation to IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard.</span></strong><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_34966E97BE8AD64EAE9D3D6E4DEE36F252B0A1AFSZXEMA501MBSchi_--


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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>
To: Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:02:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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Hi Klaus

Thanks for these explicit examples. I believe example 3 - the forward
proxy - is different from the others with respect to end-to-end security
between client and requested resource. I think that has an impact on the
solution so we should explicitly consider these examples in the work. See
comments inline.
=20

On 25/03/14 15:48, "Klaus Hartke" <hartke@tzi.org> wrote:

>Hi Hannes,
>
>here are a few examples. In each example, the client wants to obtain a
>representation of {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource. All
>examples work for both CoAP and HTTP, except for the last which only
>works for HTTP.
>
>Example 1: Client---Origin Server[example.org]
>
>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to example.org
>2. The client requests a representation of the resource
>    /path/to/resource by sending a GET request message
>3. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file to the
>client

The resource host (origin server) and the client mutually authenticates
and protect the request/response using the secure connection.

>
>Example 2: Client---Reverse Proxy[example.org]---Origin
>Server[example.net]
>
>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to example.org
>2. The client requests a representation of the resource /path/to/resource
>3. The reverse proxy chooses to satisfy the request by obtaining the
>    representation of {coaps,https}://example.net/some/other/resource
>    a. The reverse proxy resolves and establishes a secure connection
>        to example.net
>    b. The reverse proxy requests a representation of the resource
>        /some/other/resource
>    c. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file
>        to the reverse proxy
>4. The reverse proxies serves the representation to the client

In this case, the requested resource, from the point of view of the
client, is hosted by the reverse proxy, between which there can be mutual
authentication and secure connection. Where the reverse proxy gets a
representation from is out of scope of the client.


>
>Example 3: Client---Forward Proxy[proxy.example]---Origin
>Server[example.org]
>
>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to
>proxy.example
>2. The client requests a representation of the resource
>    {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource
>3. The forward proxy satisfies the request by obtaining the
>    representation of {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource
>    a. The forward proxy resolves and establishes a secure connection
>        to example.org
>    b. The forward proxy requests a representation of the resource
>        /path/to/resource
>    c. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file
>        to the forward proxy
>4. The forward proxy serves the representation to the client

In this case, the forward proxy and client mutually authenticates and
establish secure connection, as does forward proxy and resource host
(origin server). With the mechanisms described in this example, the
resource host does not authenticate the client, so some additional
security is needed for the origin server to enforce an access control
decision or evaluate an access control policy which is bound to a
particular client (or role of client).

There are of course solutions to this problem, but the important thing at
this stage is that forward proxies has an impact on the solution. If we
want to support forward proxies, eventually, then we should not postpone
this to a later phase, because there is a good chance that will require a
completely different solution. I therefore propose that we include support
for the mentioned proxies in the assumptions.


>
>Example 4: Client---Tunnel[tunnel.example]---Origin Server[example.org]
>
>1. The client resolves and establishes an unsecured connection to
>tunnel.example
>2. The client requests the tunnel to establish an unsecured connection
>    to example.org and to act as a blind relay between the two connections
>3. The tunnel satisfies the request by resolving and establishing an
>    unsecured connection to example.org
>4. The client establishes a secure connection to the origin server
>    through the tunnel
>5. The client requests a representation of the resource /path/to/resource
>6. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file to the
>client

In this case client and resource host mutually authenticates and
establishes the end-to-end secure connection in step 4. Similar to
examples 1 and 2.


G=F6ran


>
>Does that answer your questions?
>
>Klaus
>
>
>On 25 March 2014 09:47, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
>wrote:
>> Hi Klaus,
>>
>> thanks for the description. Since I am not sure I understood it
>> correctly I have a couple of basic questions.
>>
>> On 03/24/2014 08:50 PM, Klaus Hartke wrote:
>>> CoAP provides two (syntactically different) ways for a client (or
>>> intermediary in the role of a client) to perform a request:
>>> (I'm using representation retrieval as example WOLOG.)
>>>
>>> A.) the client requests a remote endpoint to return a representation
>>> of a resource located _in that endpoint's namespace_.
>>>
>>> B.) the client requests a remote endpoint to return a representation
>>> of a resource located _in another endpoint's namespace_.
>>
>> The client device will start with a specific FQDN and will start a DTLS
>> handshake with that server. Where does the "requests a remote endpoint
>> to return ...." come into the play?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In both cases, it's generally up to the remote endpoint how it obtains
>>> the representation of the target resource, as long as the result *is*
>>> a representation of the target resource.
>>> For example, in A., the remote endpoint can serve a local file (the
>>> endpoint is then typically called a "server"), return the output of a
>>> CGI script ("CGI gateway"), obtain the representation from an HTTP
>>> server ("cross-protocol proxy"), or obtain the representation from
>>> another CoAP remote endpoint ("reverse proxy"). In B., the remote
>>> endpoint is generally expected to obtain the representation by
>>> requesting it from the endpoint specified in the request URI ("forward
>>> proxy").
>>>
>>> In both cases, the client has no way to verify that the obtained
>>> result is indeed a representation of the target resource. It must
>>> trust the remote endpoint that it returns the correct representation.
>>> DTLS just secures the transmission of the representation from the
>>> remote endpoint to the client.
>>>
>>> (AFAIK, HTTP works exactly the same way.)
>>
>> In the HTTPS case the story is as follows:
>>
>> * The client contacts the server behind a https://www.ietf.org (after
>> doing a DNS look-up) using TLS.
>>
>> * It gets the cert from the server.
>>
>> * The client compares the content of the cert with what it had initially
>> requested to ensure it talks to the right server.
>>
>> The TLS will prevent any proxy along the path to cache the data (since
>> it is encrypted).
>>
>> So, I am not sure how this compares to CoAP based on your description.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>>>
>>> So, I would say that
>>>
>>> - ACE should consider forward proxies, reverse proxies and potentially
>>> cross-protocol proxies such that one of these can obtain a
>>> representation of a resource that a client is authorized to access on
>>> behalf of that client; and
>>>
>>> - ACE should not consider remote endpoints that cannot be trusted to
>>> correctly return a representation of a target resource (as this
>>> concerns the general security of CoAP which should be addressed in
>>> CoRE).
>>>
>>> Klaus
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ace mailing list
>Ace@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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From: Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:00:28 +0100
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G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>>Example 1: Client---Origin Server[example.org]
>>
>>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to example.org
>>2. The client requests a representation of the resource
>>    /path/to/resource by sending a GET request message
>>3. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file to the
>>client
>
> The resource host (origin server) and the client mutually authenticates
> and protect the request/response using the secure connection.

And this is probably the most basic solution to authorized resource
access: The origin server can determine for each request if the
authenticated client is authorized to perform the requested action on
the target resource or not.

The important thing to note here is that the origin server is actually
performing three tasks:

(1.) authenticating of the client,
(2.) having knowledge of which actions the _authenticated_ client is
authorized to perform on which resources, and
(3.) performing the action requested by an _authorized_ client on a resourc=
e.

If the origin server is too constrained to perform all these tasks,
the idea is to off-load some of them (1. and 2.) to a less constrained
third party.

Then there must be a standard way for the client to (A.) securely
discover the third party, (B.) perform steps to first become an
authenticated client and then an authorized client, and finally (C.)
to make a request as an authorized (but not necessarily authenticated)
client.

>>Example 2: Client---Reverse Proxy[example.org]---Origin
>>Server[example.net]
>>
>>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to example.org
>>2. The client requests a representation of the resource /path/to/resource
>>3. The reverse proxy chooses to satisfy the request by obtaining the
>>    representation of {coaps,https}://example.net/some/other/resource
>>    a. The reverse proxy resolves and establishes a secure connection
>>        to example.net
>>    b. The reverse proxy requests a representation of the resource
>>        /some/other/resource
>>    c. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file
>>        to the reverse proxy
>>4. The reverse proxies serves the representation to the client
>
> In this case, the requested resource, from the point of view of the
> client, is hosted by the reverse proxy, between which there can be mutual
> authentication and secure connection. Where the reverse proxy gets a
> representation from is out of scope of the client.

It may be the origin server [example.net], though, which has the
knowledge of which actions the client (which authenticated to the
reverse proxy [example.org]) is authorized to perform on which
resources. The reverse proxy could merely act as a simple cache in
front of the origin server.

So there must be (D.) a standard way for the reverse proxy to make
requests to the origin server on behalf of an authorized client.

>>Example 3: Client---Forward Proxy[proxy.example]---Origin
>>Server[example.org]
>>
>>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to
>>proxy.example
>>2. The client requests a representation of the resource
>>    {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource
>>3. The forward proxy satisfies the request by obtaining the
>>    representation of {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource
>>    a. The forward proxy resolves and establishes a secure connection
>>        to example.org
>>    b. The forward proxy requests a representation of the resource
>>        /path/to/resource
>>    c. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file
>>        to the forward proxy
>>4. The forward proxy serves the representation to the client
>
> In this case, the forward proxy and client mutually authenticates and
> establish secure connection, as does forward proxy and resource host
> (origin server).

It is noteworthy here that the client can only request the forward
proxy to make its request to the origin server securely (by specifying
the "coaps" scheme). It has no influence on acceptable cipher suits,
certificate roots, etc. The client has to trust the forward proxy that
it secures the connection to the origin server in a way that is
acceptable to the client.

> With the mechanisms described in this example, the
> resource host does not authenticate the client, so some additional
> security is needed for the origin server to enforce an access control
> decision or evaluate an access control policy which is bound to a
> particular client (or role of client).

So there must be (E.) a standard way for the forward proxy to make
requests to the origin server on behalf of an authorized client.

Klaus


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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
To: Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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From: Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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Cc: Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org>, Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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On 28 Mar 2014, at 09:29, G=F6ran Selander <goran.selander@ericsson.com> =
wrote:

> DCAF (what Carsten call =93the Berlin model=94)=20

Just to avoid confusion: DCAF is a specific protocol proposal.

Among other things, it was designed to address the requirements that =
come from the fact that client and server may be relying on different =
=93wiser elders=94 (less-constrained nodes supporting the =
highly-constrained nodes in a close relationship).

The model we arrived at in Berlin appears to be the simplest model that =
reflects this rather fundamental observation.

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


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To: Klaus Hartke <hartke@tzi.org>, Kepeng Li <1095318589@qq.com>
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Hi Klaus, Keeping

Klaus: Good input, I have some comments inline. I didn=B9t intend to work o=
n
the requirements here and now, but since you started . . .  The point I
wanted to make was that the proxy cases have an impact on the ACE
requirements, so should be included in the work from the start. I guess
you agree to that?


Kepeng: I don=B9t think we need to come to a conclusion in this discussion
to agree on the charter. We don=B9t even need to mention proxy in the
charter as long as we agree to allow this to impact the requirements.

G=F6ran



On 27/03/14 17:00, "Klaus Hartke" <hartke@tzi.org> wrote:

>G=F6ran Selander wrote:
>>>Example 1: Client---Origin Server[example.org]
>>>
>>>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to
>>>example.org
>>>2. The client requests a representation of the resource
>>>    /path/to/resource by sending a GET request message
>>>3. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file to
>>>the
>>>client
>>
>> The resource host (origin server) and the client mutually authenticates
>> and protect the request/response using the secure connection.
>
>And this is probably the most basic solution to authorized resource
>access: The origin server can determine for each request if the
>authenticated client is authorized to perform the requested action on
>the target resource or not.
>
>The important thing to note here is that the origin server is actually
>performing three tasks:
>
>(1.) authenticating of the client,
>(2.) having knowledge of which actions the _authenticated_ client is
>authorized to perform on which resources, and
>(3.) performing the action requested by an _authorized_ client on a
>resource.
>
>If the origin server is too constrained to perform all these tasks,
>the idea is to off-load some of them (1. and 2.) to a less constrained
>third party.
>
>Then there must be a standard way for the client to (A.) securely
>discover the third party, (B.) perform steps to first become an
>authenticated client and then an authorized client, and finally (C.)
>to make a request as an authorized (but not necessarily authenticated)
>client.
>
>>>Example 2: Client---Reverse Proxy[example.org]---Origin
>>>Server[example.net]
>>>
>>>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to
>>>example.org
>>>2. The client requests a representation of the resource
>>>/path/to/resource
>>>3. The reverse proxy chooses to satisfy the request by obtaining the
>>>    representation of {coaps,https}://example.net/some/other/resource
>>>    a. The reverse proxy resolves and establishes a secure connection
>>>        to example.net
>>>    b. The reverse proxy requests a representation of the resource
>>>        /some/other/resource
>>>    c. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file
>>>        to the reverse proxy
>>>4. The reverse proxies serves the representation to the client
>>
>> In this case, the requested resource, from the point of view of the
>> client, is hosted by the reverse proxy, between which there can be
>>mutual
>> authentication and secure connection. Where the reverse proxy gets a
>> representation from is out of scope of the client.
>
>It may be the origin server [example.net], though, which has the
>knowledge of which actions the client (which authenticated to the
>reverse proxy [example.org]) is authorized to perform on which
>resources. The reverse proxy could merely act as a simple cache in
>front of the origin server.

In your example, the client is requesting access to
example.org/path/to/resource. Do you propose the client should thereby
acquire rights to access example.net/some/other/resource. Should the
clients have rights to access both these resources? Same privileges?
Should the AS keep track of the association? An alternative is that the
reverse proxy has rights to access/subscribe to
example.net/some/other/resource.

>
>So there must be (D.) a standard way for the reverse proxy to make
>requests to the origin server on behalf of an authorized client.

One alternative interpretation is that it is not =B3on behalf=B2, this it t=
he
reverse proxy which in its own rights (=3Dbeing a reverse proxy) have acces=
s
to the origin server. Then D would coincide with any other access request.

>
>>>Example 3: Client---Forward Proxy[proxy.example]---Origin
>>>Server[example.org]
>>>
>>>1. The client resolves and establishes a secure connection to
>>>proxy.example
>>>2. The client requests a representation of the resource
>>>    {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource
>>>3. The forward proxy satisfies the request by obtaining the
>>>    representation of {coaps,https}://example.org/path/to/resource
>>>    a. The forward proxy resolves and establishes a secure connection
>>>        to example.org
>>>    b. The forward proxy requests a representation of the resource
>>>        /path/to/resource
>>>    c. The origin server satisfies the request by serving a local file
>>>        to the forward proxy
>>>4. The forward proxy serves the representation to the client
>>
>> In this case, the forward proxy and client mutually authenticates and
>> establish secure connection, as does forward proxy and resource host
>> (origin server).
>
>It is noteworthy here that the client can only request the forward
>proxy to make its request to the origin server securely (by specifying
>the "coaps" scheme). It has no influence on acceptable cipher suits,
>certificate roots, etc. The client has to trust the forward proxy that
>it secures the connection to the origin server in a way that is
>acceptable to the client.
>
>> With the mechanisms described in this example, the
>> resource host does not authenticate the client, so some additional
>> security is needed for the origin server to enforce an access control
>> decision or evaluate an access control policy which is bound to a
>> particular client (or role of client).
>
>So there must be (E.) a standard way for the forward proxy to make
>requests to the origin server on behalf of an authorized client.

Either the forward proxy is authorised to access the requested resource or
it is not. I think one requirement should be that a forward proxy may not
be authorised to access the requested resource. In that case there should
be (E.) a standard way for the origin server to authorise a client behind
a forward proxy without authorising the forward proxy.



G=F6ran


>
>Klaus
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ace mailing list
>Ace@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Summary of the Proxy Discussion
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--=-=-=


Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com> wrote:
    > I agree that we should consider the requirements for the proxy support
    > when we design our solution.

    > But I think it is better to design our solution step by step, in
    > different phases.

    > My worry is, proxy is quite complex to support, this may delay our
    > progress to finish our basic solution.

If we do not state this up-front, then we will wind up either throwing out
the basic solution, or we will hack it up horribly.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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One of my concerns with a proxy requirement in the charter is that =
within the OAuth WG and JOSE WG we are working on MAC/HOK tokens that =
allow for mutual authentication at the application layer.

Not to say whether or not ACE will use OAuth, but with regards to =
tokens, while constrained environments might prefer to use DTLS for this =
authn and encryption, I wonder if similar app layer authentication =
requirements won't come up that block the ability to have "proxy" =
support.

My gut reaction has been to consider that some endpoints are "dual" =
TCP/UDP endpoints to allow inter-op between UDP environs and the larger =
web TCP world.

I would keep the charter somewhat neutral until some initial proposals =
have been received and the group can better evaluate the best approach.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com

On 2014-03-28, at 11:34 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:

>=20
> Likepeng <likepeng@huawei.com> wrote:
>> I agree that we should consider the requirements for the proxy =
support
>> when we design our solution.
>=20
>> But I think it is better to design our solution step by step, in
>> different phases.
>=20
>> My worry is, proxy is quite complex to support, this may delay our
>> progress to finish our basic solution.
>=20
> If we do not state this up-front, then we will wind up either throwing =
out
> the basic solution, or we will hack it up horribly.
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Greetings.

Where these tutorials recorded and posted somewhere?

Cheers


On 2/6/2014 4:16 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Dan,
> yes, that's unfortunate but maybe we can create a recording of them.
> Ciao
> Hannes
> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 06. Februar 2014 um 09:14 Uhr
> *Von:* "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
> *An:* "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org" 
> <ace@ietf.org>
> *Betreff:* RE: [Ace] Tutorials
>
> Unfortunately the privacy and AAA tutorials are scheduled one against 
> the other according to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/89/tutorials.html. 
> I am not sure if anything can be done about this at this stage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> *From:*Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Hannes Tschofenig
> *Sent:* ??? ? 05 ?????? 2014 17:00
> *To:* ace@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Ace] Tutorials
>
> Hi all,
>
> you may have noticed that I see value in re-using existing IETF work 
> (or to at least see whether prior work can be re-used).
>
> I thought that we could try something new and therefore I approached a 
> few folks and asked them whether they are willing to give a tutorial 
> to the folks in the group.
>
> In particular, I have asked the following persons:
>
> * Thomas Hardjono: Kerberos
>
> * Justin Richer: OAuth
>
> * Eve Maler: UMA
>
> * Sean Turner: PKI/certificates
>
> There will also be two tutorials on the Sunday before the IETF 
> meeting, namely one about the AAA architecture, and another one about 
> engineering privacy into protocols. The AAA tutorial will be given by 
> Lionel Morand, and I do the privacy tutorial.
>
> I will send information about these tutorials to the list ASAP. Note 
> that I will have to take the availability of the speakers into account 
> (as you can imagine).
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Greetings.<br>
      <br>
      Where these tutorials recorded and posted somewhere?<br>
      <br>
      Cheers<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 2/6/2014 4:16 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-5abe2927-2bb7-4230-a7cc-7785d89ad3bb-1391678203329@3capp-gmx-bs42"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
        <div>
          <div>Hi Dan,&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>yes, that's unfortunate but maybe we can create a
            recording of them.&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Ciao<br>
            Hannes</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>
            <div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding:
              10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5;
              word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
              <div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Donnerstag,
                06. Februar 2014 um 09:14 Uhr<br>
                <b>Von:</b>&nbsp;"Romascanu, Dan (Dan)"
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">&lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</a><br>
                <b>An:</b>&nbsp;"Hannes Tschofenig"
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net">&lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net&gt;</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ace@ietf.org">"ace@ietf.org"</a>
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ace@ietf.org">&lt;ace@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;RE: [Ace] Tutorials</div>
              <div name="quoted-content"><!--p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {
	margin: 0.0cm;
	font-size: 12.0pt;
	font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;
}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {
	color: blue;
	text-decoration: underline;
}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {
	color: purple;
	text-decoration: underline;
}
span.EmailStyle17 {
	font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;
	color: rgb(31,73,125);
}
*.MsoChpDefault {
	font-size: 10.0pt;
}
div.WordSection1 {
	page: WordSection1;
}
-->
                <div>
                  <div class="WordSection1">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                        11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color:
                        rgb(31,73,125);">Unfortunately the privacy and
                        AAA tutorials are scheduled one against the
                        other according to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="http://www.ietf.org/meeting/89/tutorials.html"
                          target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/meeting/89/tutorials.html</a>.
                        I am not sure if anything can be done about this
                        at this stage. </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                        11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color:
                        rgb(31,73,125);">&nbsp;</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                        11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color:
                        rgb(31,73,125);">Regards,</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                        11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color:
                        rgb(31,73,125);">&nbsp;</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                        11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color:
                        rgb(31,73,125);">Dan</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                        11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color:
                        rgb(31,73,125);">&nbsp;</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                        11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color:
                        rgb(31,73,125);">&nbsp;</span></p>
                    <div style="border: none;border-left: solid blue
                      1.5pt;padding: 0.0cm 0.0cm 0.0cm 4.0pt;">
                      <div>
                        <div style="border: none;border-top: solid
                          rgb(181,196,223) 1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt 0.0cm
                          0.0cm 0.0cm;">
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:
                                Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                              style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:
                              Tahoma , sans-serif;"> Ace
                              [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On
                                Behalf Of </b>Hannes Tschofenig<br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> <span>&#1497;&#1493;&#1501;&nbsp;&#1491; 05 &#1508;&#1489;&#1512;&#1493;&#1488;&#1512; 2014
                                17:00</span><br>
                              <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> [Ace] Tutorials</span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">Hi
                              all,&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">you
                              may have noticed that I see value in
                              re-using existing IETF work (or to at
                              least see whether prior work can be
                              re-used).&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">I
                              thought that we could try something new
                              and therefore I approached a few folks and
                              asked them whether they are willing to
                              give a tutorial to the folks in the
                              group.&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">In
                              particular, I have asked the following
                              persons:&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">*
                              Thomas Hardjono: Kerberos</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">*
                              Justin Richer: OAuth</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">*
                              Eve Maler: UMA</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">*
                              Sean Turner: PKI/certificates&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">There
                              will also be two tutorials on the Sunday
                              before the IETF meeting, namely one about
                              the AAA architecture, and another one
                              about engineering privacy into protocols.
                              The AAA tutorial will be given by Lionel
                              Morand, and I do the privacy tutorial.&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">I
                              will send information about these
                              tutorials to the list ASAP. Note that I
                              will have to take the availability of the
                              speakers into account (as you can
                              imagine).&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">Ciao<br>
                              Hannes</span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                              9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Hi Paul,

yes, we recorded the tutorials and I put them here:
http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=3D1012

Ciao
Hannes

On 03/28/2014 11:09 PM, Paul Duffy wrote:
> Greetings.
>=20
> Where these tutorials recorded and posted somewhere?
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
>=20
> On 2/6/2014 4:16 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi Dan,=20
>> =20
>> yes, that's unfortunate but maybe we can create a recording of them.=20
>> =20
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>> =20
>> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 06. Februar 2014 um 09:14 Uhr
>> *Von:* "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
>> *An:* "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, "ace@ietf.org"
>> <ace@ietf.org>
>> *Betreff:* RE: [Ace] Tutorials
>>
>> Unfortunately the privacy and AAA tutorials are scheduled one against
>> the other according to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/89/tutorials.html.
>> I am not sure if anything can be done about this at this stage.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> =20
>>
>> =20
>>
>> *From:*Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Hannes Tschofe=
nig
>> *Sent:* =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=93 05 =D7=A4=D7=91=D7=A8=D7=95=D7=90=D7=
=A8 2014 17:00
>> *To:* ace@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [Ace] Tutorials
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Hi all,=20
>>
>> =20
>>
>> you may have noticed that I see value in re-using existing IETF work
>> (or to at least see whether prior work can be re-used).=20
>>
>> I thought that we could try something new and therefore I approached a=

>> few folks and asked them whether they are willing to give a tutorial
>> to the folks in the group.=20
>>
>> In particular, I have asked the following persons:=20
>>
>> * Thomas Hardjono: Kerberos
>>
>> * Justin Richer: OAuth
>>
>> * Eve Maler: UMA
>>
>> * Sean Turner: PKI/certificates=20
>>
>> =20
>>
>> There will also be two tutorials on the Sunday before the IETF
>> meeting, namely one about the AAA architecture, and another one about
>> engineering privacy into protocols. The AAA tutorial will be given by
>> Lionel Morand, and I do the privacy tutorial.=20
>>
>> =20
>>
>> I will send information about these tutorials to the list ASAP. Note
>> that I will have to take the availability of the speakers into account=

>> (as you can imagine).=20
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> =20
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20


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