From nobody Mon Aug 3 04:52:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6C71A8A3C for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 04:52:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k1eA-X-REfpY for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 04:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f178.google.com (mail-lb0-f178.google.com [209.85.217.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3D181A88B2 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 04:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbyj8 with SMTP id yj8so76219612lbb.0 for ; Mon, 03 Aug 2015 04:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=1zFXF89+V/mmd973xYuhkq7N82bXzbaeBFSHap7j4MI=; b=ksXD5HCX/Iltt4B6w5nst2FH0mFX1W1rPhZf9788v41ltvy8QIGeD06lPwhMtg11ZV nAbceKRqbUFjworDKVVKzoRHjDEHJS866uELpVJxrTz64hv7H9pwwKky477EC4V6pNRK 07NHE1kypxLPRBoiL+/eHqzK0WUOh4Dem4fVIkXBKdW+9ESvLfu+1L+9KDXHjzrQ/t3w ZYXhOpkCzfx/juatGeukAfc4070JJ9LDAxfMw+fzOeTDiDDu+Ti8lOHqRzJj5kpNndn1 /pyELL18f2Florh6eEtUV8P9RyHUBdKUjLAm7+cQN7dk5wSUf1XSORRdrMOsoYpa8/aa blWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlKHy/+O5MJEmn4BwOTsUNNhK13UfQxPNpl6BO40dcalcl1rHOx6fYyNu5gpfrad76r40hV X-Received: by 10.152.204.43 with SMTP id kv11mr16412416lac.15.1438602742967; Mon, 03 Aug 2015 04:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.108] ([85.235.11.178]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id jl4sm2937979lbc.14.2015.08.03.04.52.21 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Aug 2015 04:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55BF55F3.4010701@sics.se> Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 13:52:19 +0200 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rahman, Akbar" , Hannes Tschofenig , Kepeng Li References: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310B67E@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> In-Reply-To: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310B67E@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070003020703000800000409" Archived-At: Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:52:29 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070003020703000800000409 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2015-07-28 20:06, Rahman, Akbar wrote: > Hi Hannes/Kepeng/Ludwig, > > > I have made an update of the Public Safety Use case draft to capture th= e key points from the Prague meeting. Namely (from the minutes): > > -https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/minutes/minutes-93-ace > > -Hannes: please give us feedback about non-repudiation, clarifi= cation on integrity of the data. > -We should include this on the UC document: 12 hands Ok, 2 hand= no. > -Conclusion: We will include it > > > > Please look at the diff of the draft and tell me if you agree with the = updates (i.e. basically got rid of the offending items as suggested durin= g the WG discussion as they strayed out of the Authentication/Authorizati= on arena into Legal or other protocol areas). > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rahman-ace-public-saf= ety-use-case-01 > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-rahman-ace-pu= blic-safety-use-case-01 > > If so, I guess the next step is for Ludwig to incorporate into the WG U= se Case draft. If you merge, you can just acknowledge us but do not have= to include us as authors in your WG Use Case draft. > > > Please write back! > > > Best Regards, > > > Akbar > I'd suggest we integrate it with the building automation use case as a=20 new section 2.4.2, moving the summary to 2.4.3 and replacing the second=20 part of section 2.4.1.2. in which there already is a fire control=20 scenario. Would that sound reasonable to you Akbar? /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms070003020703000800000409 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwyGmDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE1MDEwODA4MzkwNloXDTE2MDEwOTIyNDEzMFowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAxUHisC6rgXFsBHHBGo8ulz/cLX3gX5Ufhcwo 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protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090806010201000209060203" Archived-At: Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 16:13:12 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090806010201000209060203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I'd suggest we integrate it with the building automation use case as a > new section 2.4.2, moving the summary to 2.4.3 and replacing the second= > part of section 2.4.1.2. in which there already is a fire control > scenario. Would that sound reasonable to you Akbar? > > /Ludwig > Working on this I realized a number of problems with your authorization=20 problem summary. 1.) The problems don't explicitly follow from the text. A reviewer=20 asked us, for the other use cases, to mark in the text from where a=20 requirement is drawn, and I find this impossible to pinpoint in the=20 public safety case. 2.) Problems 1-5 are already reflected in the other use cases, I'd like=20 to avoid duplicating them for this scenario if you don't object. 3.) Problem 6 is not really an authorization problem. We could rephrase=20 it slightly to make it one. How about "The authorization mechanisms must = be able to cope with extremely time-sensitive operations which have to=20 be carried out in a quick manner." ? 4.) 7 and 8 are not really authorization problems either. They are=20 auditing and message origin authentication problems. Do we want to list=20 them here? As an alternative we could add a paragraph to the security=20 considerations instead specifying that we are aware of these types of=20 problems, but that they are not in scope of the document (and ACE?). Regards, Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms090806010201000209060203 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwyGmDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE1MDEwODA4MzkwNloXDTE2MDEwOTIyNDEzMFowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAxUHisC6rgXFsBHHBGo8ulz/cLX3gX5Ufhcwo rp+7djzMMuKPM1KOHq0bjWhmFe8ly8CzWdk2NS600t7IEBQWJiHLsdc12UqmNswQUpD7oqkR 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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WsgufpvNjJpH for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 13:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (host-64-47-120-121.masergy.com [64.47.120.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44EF21B30DC for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 13:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1438633188-06daaa664e99650002-Yzt3Th Received: from NALENITE.InterDigital.com (nalenite.interdigital.com [10.2.64.253]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id sNUXkKVcBPdwEaWW (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 03 Aug 2015 16:19:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from NABESITE.InterDigital.com ([fe80::4d8a:a889:67c2:f009]) by NALENITE.InterDigital.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 16:19:49 -0400 From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: Ludwig Seitz , Hannes Tschofenig , Kepeng Li Thread-Topic: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft Thread-Index: AdDJWDziZpqLhO2xSw+6JjhmB4tRfAErCO+AAAk8h8A= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 20:19:48 +0000 Message-ID: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E221@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> References: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310B67E@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> <55BF55F3.4010701@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <55BF55F3.4010701@sics.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.3.2.185] x-exclaimer-md-config: bb79a19d-f711-475c-a0f9-4d93b71c94dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Barracuda-Connect: nalenite.interdigital.com[10.2.64.253] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1438633189 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: AES128-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: https://10.1.245.3:443/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests= X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.21318 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Archived-At: Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 20:20:02 -0000 Hi Ludwig, >I'd suggest we integrate it with the building automation use case as a >new section 2.4.2, moving the summary to 2.4.3 and replacing the second >part of section 2.4.1.2. in which there already is a fire control >scenario. Would that sound reasonable to you Akbar? Yes, this sounds like a good plan, especially if we could retain the "Publi= c Safety" term as part of the new subsection title. Best Regards, Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Ludwig Seitz [mailto:ludwig@sics.se] Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 7:52 AM To: Rahman, Akbar ; Hannes Tschofenig ; Kepeng Li Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft On 2015-07-28 20:06, Rahman, Akbar wrote: > Hi Hannes/Kepeng/Ludwig, > > > I have made an update of the Public Safety Use case draft to capture the = key points from the Prague meeting. Namely (from the minutes): > > -https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/minutes/minutes-93-ace > > -Hannes: please give us feedback about non-repudiation, clarifica= tion on integrity of the data. > -We should include this on the UC document: 12 hands Ok, 2 hand n= o. > -Conclusion: We will include it > > > > Please look at the diff of the draft and tell me if you agree with the up= dates (i.e. basically got rid of the offending items as suggested during th= e WG discussion as they strayed out of the Authentication/Authorization are= na into Legal or other protocol areas). > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rahman-ace-public-safet= y-use-case-01 > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-rahman-ace-publ= ic-safety-use-case-01 > > If so, I guess the next step is for Ludwig to incorporate into the WG Use= Case draft. If you merge, you can just acknowledge us but do not have to = include us as authors in your WG Use Case draft. > > > Please write back! > > > Best Regards, > > > Akbar > I'd suggest we integrate it with the building automation use case as a new section 2.4.2, moving the summary to 2.4.3 and replacing the second part of section 2.4.1.2. in which there already is a fire control scenario. Would that sound reasonable to you Akbar? /Ludwig -- Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se From nobody Mon Aug 3 13:59:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52851B3126 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 13:59:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kINza5HVgd1u for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 13:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (host-64-47-120-121.masergy.com [64.47.120.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B29F1B3132 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 13:59:35 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1438635573-06daaa664e9a0d0001-Yzt3Th Received: from NISSONITE.InterDigital.com (nissonite.interdigital.com [10.2.64.252]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id pGE7mhOi1PBk7hA6 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 03 Aug 2015 16:59:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from NABESITE.InterDigital.com ([fe80::4d8a:a889:67c2:f009]) by NISSONITE.InterDigital.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 16:59:30 -0400 From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: Ludwig Seitz Thread-Topic: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft Thread-Index: AdDJWDziZpqLhO2xSw+6JjhmB4tRfAErCO+AAAkbb4AAAD7CwA== Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 20:59:29 +0000 Message-ID: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E25D@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> References: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310B67E@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> <55BF55F3.4010701@sics.se> <55BF9311.2020100@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <55BF9311.2020100@sics.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.3.2.185] x-exclaimer-md-config: bb79a19d-f711-475c-a0f9-4d93b71c94dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Barracuda-Connect: nissonite.interdigital.com[10.2.64.252] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1438635573 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: AES128-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: https://10.1.245.3:443/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests= X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.21318 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Archived-At: Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 20:59:36 -0000 Hi Ludwig, Please see below for my feedback to your points: >1.) The problems don't explicitly follow from the text. A reviewer >asked us, for the other use cases, to mark in the text from where a >requirement is drawn, and I find this impossible to pinpoint in the >public safety case. Akbar - I think this problem mostly disappears due to your other suggestion= s below. >2.) Problems 1-5 are already reflected in the other use cases, I'd like >to avoid duplicating them for this scenario if you don't object. Akbar - That is okay with me. Duplication should be avoided >3.) Problem 6 is not really an authorization problem. We could rephrase >it slightly to make it one. How about "The authorization mechanisms must >be able to cope with extremely time-sensitive operations which have to >be carried out in a quick manner." ? Akbar - Yes, good suggestion. >4.) 7 and 8 are not really authorization problems either. They are >auditing and message origin authentication problems. Do we want to list >them here? >As an alternative we could add a paragraph to the security >considerations instead specifying that we are aware of these types of >problems, but that they are not in scope of the document (and ACE?). Akbar: - Perhaps we need to re-word Problem 7 rather than moving it out. Problem = 7 is trying to explicitly identify the need for source authentication. For= example, this is important in group communication scenarios (i.e. which sp= ecific member of the group sent the message) which I understood to be in th= e scope of ACE based on the discussions in Prague relating to draft-somaraj= u-ace-multicast. And also even for non-group communication scenarios sourc= e authentication can be important. For example, source authentication can = be considered to be an important factor for the "Selling the house" scenari= o (section 2.2.4) and especially complementary to requirement U2.11 (transf= er ownership). So I would argue to retain Problem 7 as it is applicable to= the Public Safety, Group communication, and financial use cases among othe= rs. - On a related point. The ACE charter is explicitly referring to both "aut= hentication" and "authorization". But in each of our Problem Summary subse= ctions (e.g. 2.1.2, 2.2.5), you specifically refer to only "Authorization".= Was there a specific reason for that? - I do agree that Problem 8 can be added as a note to the Security Consider= ations section. Any feedback would be welcome. Best Regards, Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Ludwig Seitz [mailto:ludwig@sics.se] Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 12:13 PM To: Rahman, Akbar Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft > I'd suggest we integrate it with the building automation use case as a > new section 2.4.2, moving the summary to 2.4.3 and replacing the second > part of section 2.4.1.2. in which there already is a fire control > scenario. Would that sound reasonable to you Akbar? > > /Ludwig > Working on this I realized a number of problems with your authorization problem summary. 1.) The problems don't explicitly follow from the text. A reviewer asked us, for the other use cases, to mark in the text from where a requirement is drawn, and I find this impossible to pinpoint in the public safety case. 2.) Problems 1-5 are already reflected in the other use cases, I'd like to avoid duplicating them for this scenario if you don't object. 3.) Problem 6 is not really an authorization problem. We could rephrase it slightly to make it one. How about "The authorization mechanisms must be able to cope with extremely time-sensitive operations which have to be carried out in a quick manner." ? 4.) 7 and 8 are not really authorization problems either. They are auditing and message origin authentication problems. Do we want to list them here? As an alternative we could add a paragraph to the security considerations instead specifying that we are aware of these types of problems, but that they are not in scope of the document (and ACE?). Regards, Ludwig -- Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se From nobody Mon Aug 3 14:39:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B91BE1B316A for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.513 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.513 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7hh2Ix3UCfM for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (host-64-47-120-121.masergy.com [64.47.120.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F6111ACEB0 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1438637942-06daaa664c9ab30001-Yzt3Th Received: from NISSONITE.InterDigital.com (nissonite.interdigital.com [10.2.64.252]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id 4GdWBzSIQ4kSbz6z (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 03 Aug 2015 17:39:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from NABESITE.InterDigital.com ([fe80::4d8a:a889:67c2:f009]) by NISSONITE.InterDigital.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 17:38:59 -0400 From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: Kepeng Li , Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 Thread-Index: AQHQxgKE+5JBUS2k4EG3hfaxc3DGtJ36dSJA Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 21:38:59 +0000 Message-ID: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E29A@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.3.2.185] x-exclaimer-md-config: bb79a19d-f711-475c-a0f9-4d93b71c94dd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E29ANABESITEInterDi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Barracuda-Connect: nissonite.interdigital.com[10.2.64.252] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1438637942 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: AES128-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: https://10.1.245.3:443/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.21320 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message Archived-At: Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 21:39:06 -0000 --_000_36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E29ANABESITEInterDi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kepeng/Hannes, I support adopting the draft. However, I did have a few comments that hope= fully can be addressed as part of the update process: 1. The mixing of "architecture" and "problem statement" terms is unne= cessarily confusing (e.g. in the Abstract and 5th paragraph of Intro). The = way I read the draft is that it is mostly a high level architecture (i.e. S= ections 1-7) and a set of concise requirements (i.e. Section 8). So I woul= d suggest dropping references to "problem statement". 2. I was expecting a clear linkage to Requirements from draft-ietf-ac= e-usecases to Section 8 (Assumptions and Requirements) but did not find it.= Why wasn't this done? 3. There was no explicit mention of access "tokens" in the architectu= re description even though there were several references to OAUTH. Do you = think that should be added? 4. The title refers only to "authorization" while the rest of the doc= ument clearly covers both "authorization and authentication". So I think t= he title should be expanded. Best Regards, Akbar From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:18 AM To: ace@ietf.org Cc: Hannes Tschofenig Subject: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 Hello all, This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the charter. The call ends on Aug 7, 2015. Keep in mind that adoption of a document does not mean the document as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the document as a starting point for what will be the final product of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to the document according to the normal consensus process. There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close of this Call. Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition, preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item. Thanks, Kind Regards Kepeng & Hannes --_000_36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E29ANABESITEInterDi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Kepeng/= Hannes,

 = ;

 = ;

I support = adopting the draft.  However, I did have a few comments that hopefully= can be addressed as part of the update process:

 = ;

1.       Th= e mixing of “architecture” and “problem statement” = terms is unnecessarily confusing (e.g. in the Abstract and 5th paragraph of Intro). The way I read the draft is that it is mostly a high = level architecture (i.e. Sections 1-7) and a set of concise requirements (i= .e. Section 8).  So I would suggest dropping references to “prob= lem statement”.

 

2.       I = was expecting a clear linkage to Requirements from draft-ietf-ace-usecases = to Section 8 (Assumptions and Requirements) but did not find it.  Why wasn’t this done?

 

3.       Th= ere was no explicit mention of access “tokens” in the architect= ure description even though there were several references to OAUTH.  Do you think that should be added?

 

4.       Th= e title refers only to “authorization” while the rest of the do= cument clearly covers both “authorization and authentication”.&= nbsp; So I think the title should be expanded.

 = ;

 = ;

Best Regar= ds,

 = ;

 = ;

Akbar=

 = ;

 = ;

From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:18 AM
To: ace@ietf.org
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
Subject: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05=

 

Hello all,<= o:p>

 

This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05=
 to


be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the ch=
arter.

The call ends on Aug 7, 2015.

 

Keep in mind that adoption o=
f a document does not mean the document


as-is is ready for publicati=
on. It is merely acceptance of the


document as a starting point=
 for what will be the final product


of the ACE working group. Th=
e working group is free to make changes to


the document according to th=
e normal consensus process.


 

There were favorable support=
s toward adoption of this document at


IETF 93 in Prague. We will f=
actor this into the decision at the close


of this Call.


 

Please reply on this thread =
with expressions of support or opposition,


preferably with comments, re=
garding accepting this as a work item.


 


Thanks,


 


Kind Regards


Kepeng & Hannes
--_000_36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E29ANABESITEInterDi_-- From nobody Tue Aug 4 01:40:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90AB21B36E6 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2015 01:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UyagA5d_iKy9 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2015 01:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f170.google.com (mail-lb0-f170.google.com [209.85.217.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F20BC1A8794 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2015 01:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbyj8 with SMTP id yj8so1805379lbb.0 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 01:40:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=aUs/8+KdSU/IsjvvzhOirMX30MMWm6ji4t0GQZII2p0=; b=Rvo1BNZyv2eWw7WMM3NEatFzROfCHVgZrfJQkBE5CFo0if6AFkSlIpYQvQsbWoabmL Sfa2CCw9WxewPaQl9NMtsNvmXfYodHNHgSrvXjXv1Bbrev3lsIgV1A5PXi+sKmJU4JdL 04NLrZw/AJUKzMbQnuK8q5MOiksnCq3o83j7xkvZd/P6wKUukp66r6xh/Fp+GniXEQzE SJoPTIfJ1qOBhnrePrCyjNIQ0SMRsQABGyUfFl7wU4NKUbyKwrYUWXAuuJSZfu1H352t UZsw32yo5KjMiwUJdQ+eIu2jkaqFVyBArigRFGVKcQrBoONTxyY8jQpBhp/5LW2wNxxn Yc3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnzeVHevujU8WkWIz0cQXsKzwR4rjkIB+5MOp+HejCSSTRhLKmfUiqZLXFP9TOyTou0XiAb X-Received: by 10.152.19.67 with SMTP id c3mr2145749lae.4.1438677628433; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 01:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.108] ([85.235.11.178]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r10sm78025lar.2.2015.08.04.01.40.27 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Aug 2015 01:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55C07A70.3060700@sics.se> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 10:40:16 +0200 From: Ludwig Seitz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rahman, Akbar" References: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310B67E@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> <55BF55F3.4010701@sics.se> <55BF9311.2020100@sics.se> <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E25D@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> In-Reply-To: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E25D@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090306010009060402000501" Archived-At: Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 08:40:32 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090306010009060402000501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2015-08-03 22:59, Rahman, Akbar wrote: > Hi Ludwig, > > > Please see below for my feedback to your points: > > >> 1.) The problems don't explicitly follow from the text. A reviewer >> asked us, for the other use cases, to mark in the text from where a >> requirement is drawn, and I find this impossible to pinpoint in the >> public safety case. > > Akbar - I think this problem mostly disappears due to your other sugges= tions below. > I agree. =2E.. > >> 4.) 7 and 8 are not really authorization problems either. They are >> auditing and message origin authentication problems. Do we want to lis= t >> them here? >> As an alternative we could add a paragraph to the security >> considerations instead specifying that we are aware of these types of >> problems, but that they are not in scope of the document (and ACE?). > > > Akbar: > - Perhaps we need to re-word Problem 7 rather than moving it out. Prob= lem 7 is trying to explicitly identify the need for source authentication= =2E > For example, this is important in group communication scenarios (i.e. w= hich specific member of the group sent the message) which I understood to= be > in the scope of ACE based on the discussions in Prague relating to draf= t-somaraju-ace-multicast. And also even for non-group communication scen= arios > source authentication can be important. For example, source=20 authentication can be considered to be an important factor for the=20 "Selling the house" > scenario (section 2.2.4) and especially complementary to requirement=20 U2.11 (transfer ownership). So I would argue to retain Problem 7 as it i= s > applicable to the Public Safety, Group communication, and financial=20 use cases among others. > On second thought, I agree problem 7 is indeed in scope. I'll try to=20 re-word it so this becomes clearer. As for problem 8, currently auditing is mentioned in the privacy=20 considerations (last paragraph), do you think that text covers it=20 sufficiently or would you like to suggest improvements? > - On a related point. The ACE charter is explicitly referring to both = "authentication" and "authorization". But in each of our Problem Summary= > subsections (e.g. 2.1.2, 2.2.5), you specifically refer to only "Author= ization". Was there a specific reason for that? None that I can recall, especially since we are mentioning=20 authentication problems in the introduction and in some of the=20 summaries. I guess we tried to avoid making the titles to long, I'll add = authentication for clarity. /Ludwig --=20 Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se --------------ms090306010009060402000501 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMVDCC BhgwggUAoAMCAQICAwyGmDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCBjDELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNV BAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRl IFNpZ25pbmcxODA2BgNVBAMTL1N0YXJ0Q29tIENsYXNzIDEgUHJpbWFyeSBJbnRlcm1lZGlh dGUgQ2xpZW50IENBMB4XDTE1MDEwODA4MzkwNloXDTE2MDEwOTIyNDEzMFowODEXMBUGA1UE AwwObHVkd2lnQHNpY3Muc2UxHTAbBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWDmx1ZHdpZ0BzaWNzLnNlMIIBIjAN 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FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zgkrDW0CNhkk for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2015 07:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-in1.interdigital.com (host-64-47-120-121.masergy.com [64.47.120.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7D121A00F9 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2015 07:48:29 -0700 (PDT) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1438699708-06daaa664ea5400001-Yzt3Th Received: from NALENITE.InterDigital.com (nalenite.interdigital.com [10.2.64.253]) by smtp-in1.interdigital.com with ESMTP id AKmsoH6ayh8LTfs9 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 04 Aug 2015 10:48:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Received: from NABESITE.InterDigital.com ([fe80::4d8a:a889:67c2:f009]) by NALENITE.InterDigital.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 4 Aug 2015 10:48:26 -0400 From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: Ludwig Seitz Thread-Topic: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft Thread-Index: AdDJWDziZpqLhO2xSw+6JjhmB4tRfAErCO+AAAkbb4AAAD7CwAAiO1oAAARjc7A= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 14:48:25 +0000 Message-ID: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E54E@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> References: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310B67E@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> <55BF55F3.4010701@sics.se> <55BF9311.2020100@sics.se> <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E25D@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> <55C07A70.3060700@sics.se> In-Reply-To: <55C07A70.3060700@sics.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.3.247.95] x-exclaimer-md-config: bb79a19d-f711-475c-a0f9-4d93b71c94dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Barracuda-Connect: nalenite.interdigital.com[10.2.64.253] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1438699708 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: AES128-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: https://10.1.245.3:443/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at interdigital.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=9.0 tests= X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.21338 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Archived-At: Cc: "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Update to Public Safety Use Case draft X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 14:48:32 -0000 Hi Ludwig, >As for problem 8, currently auditing is mentioned in the privacy >considerations (last paragraph), do you think that text covers it >sufficiently or would you like to suggest improvements? The current text in Section 4 (Privacy Considerations) looks good. Thanks. /Akbar -----Original Message----- From: Ludwig Seitz [mailto:ludwig@sics.se] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 4:40 AM To: Rahman, Akbar Cc: ace@ietf.org Subject: Re: Update to Public Safety Use Case draft On 2015-08-03 22:59, Rahman, Akbar wrote: > Hi Ludwig, > > > Please see below for my feedback to your points: > > >> 1.) The problems don't explicitly follow from the text. A reviewer >> asked us, for the other use cases, to mark in the text from where a >> requirement is drawn, and I find this impossible to pinpoint in the >> public safety case. > > Akbar - I think this problem mostly disappears due to your other suggesti= ons below. > I agree. ... > >> 4.) 7 and 8 are not really authorization problems either. They are >> auditing and message origin authentication problems. Do we want to list >> them here? >> As an alternative we could add a paragraph to the security >> considerations instead specifying that we are aware of these types of >> problems, but that they are not in scope of the document (and ACE?). > > > Akbar: > - Perhaps we need to re-word Problem 7 rather than moving it out. Proble= m 7 is trying to explicitly identify the need for source authentication. > For example, this is important in group communication scenarios (i.e. whi= ch specific member of the group sent the message) which I understood to be > in the scope of ACE based on the discussions in Prague relating to draft-= somaraju-ace-multicast. And also even for non-group communication scenario= s > source authentication can be important. For example, source authentication can be considered to be an important factor for the "Selling the house" > scenario (section 2.2.4) and especially complementary to requirement U2.11 (transfer ownership). So I would argue to retain Problem 7 as it is > applicable to the Public Safety, Group communication, and financial use cases among others. > On second thought, I agree problem 7 is indeed in scope. I'll try to re-word it so this becomes clearer. As for problem 8, currently auditing is mentioned in the privacy considerations (last paragraph), do you think that text covers it sufficiently or would you like to suggest improvements? > - On a related point. The ACE charter is explicitly referring to both "a= uthentication" and "authorization". But in each of our Problem Summary > subsections (e.g. 2.1.2, 2.2.5), you specifically refer to only "Authoriz= ation". Was there a specific reason for that? None that I can recall, especially since we are mentioning authentication problems in the introduction and in some of the summaries. I guess we tried to avoid making the titles to long, I'll add authentication for clarity. /Ludwig -- Ludwig Seitz, PhD SICS Swedish ICT AB Ideon Science Park Building Beta 2 Scheelev=E4gen 17 SE-223 70 Lund Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51 http://www.sics.se From nobody Wed Aug 5 08:00:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D2E1B3063 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2015 08:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lRZQOzhq5Q68 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2015 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gecko.sbs.de (gecko.sbs.de [194.138.37.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E27E81B3062 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2015 07:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.sbs.de (mail1.sbs.de [192.129.41.35]) by gecko.sbs.de (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPS id t75ExfXg020747 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2015 16:59:41 +0200 Received: from DEFTHW99ERJMSX.ww902.siemens.net (defthw99erjmsx.ww902.siemens.net [139.22.70.135]) by mail1.sbs.de (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPS id t75ExfLt002590 (version=TLSv1 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2015 16:59:41 +0200 Received: from DEFTHW99EI4MSX.ww902.siemens.net ([169.254.9.115]) by DEFTHW99ERJMSX.ww902.siemens.net ([139.22.70.135]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 5 Aug 2015 16:59:40 +0200 From: "Cuellar, Jorge" To: "ace@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 Thread-Index: AQHQxgKE+5JBUS2k4EG3hfaxc3DGtJ36dSJAgAMdEaA= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 14:59:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E29A@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> In-Reply-To: <36F5869FE31AB24485E5E3222C288E1F2310E29A@NABESITE.InterDigital.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [139.22.70.25] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FFE9A7A8D3904741935F44C6429E3B9D60753CDEFTHW99EI4MSXww9_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2015 15:00:06 -0000 --_000_FFE9A7A8D3904741935F44C6429E3B9D60753CDEFTHW99EI4MSXww9_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support adopting the draft as wg item. Best, Jorge From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:18 AM To: ace@ietf.org Cc: Hannes Tschofenig > Subject: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 Hello all, This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the charter. The call ends on Aug 7, 2015. Keep in mind that adoption of a document does not mean the document as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the document as a starting point for what will be the final product of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to the document according to the normal consensus process. There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close of this Call. Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition, preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item. Thanks, Kind Regards Kepeng & Hannes --_000_FFE9A7A8D3904741935F44C6429E3B9D60753CDEFTHW99EI4MSXww9_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support = adopting the draft as wg i= tem.

 = ;

Best,

Jorge=

 = ;

 = ;

From: Ace [mailto= :ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kepeng Li
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:18 AM
To: ace@ietf.org
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
Subject: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05=

 

Hello all,

 
This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to
be adopted as an ACE working group item, and =
added in the charter.

The call ends on Aug 7, 2015.

 
Keep in mind =
that adoption of a document does not mean the document

as-is is read=
y for publication. It is merely acceptance of the


document as a=
 starting point for what will be the final product


of the ACE wo=
rking group. The working group is free to make changes to=



the document =
according to the normal consensus process.


 


There were fa=
vorable supports toward adoption of this document at

IETF 93 in Pr=
ague. We will factor this into the decision at the close<=
/pre>

of this Call.=



 


Please reply =
on this thread with expressions of support or opposition,=



preferably wi=
th comments, regarding accepting this as a work item.

 


Thanks,


 


Kind Regards


Kepeng & Hannes
--_000_FFE9A7A8D3904741935F44C6429E3B9D60753CDEFTHW99EI4MSXww9_-- From nobody Thu Aug 6 01:27:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B089C1B29CE for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 01:27:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FgMSaRrN0jcc for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 01:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4133-50.mail.aliyun.com (out4133-50.mail.aliyun.com [42.120.133.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A481B29C7 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 01:27:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alibaba-inc.com; s=default; t=1438849632; h=Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Mime-version:Content-type; bh=I1eXTU1zz8CpTGkKXdc0SV3GHQkkaGv/2ROfb7wCPEk=; b=TmHlX/dBVLlQDgMtmR+rkjVd63HxdwbpQ9n0SbvBcwHOgKvr8BbquYaO597ha1SYIXCEXbIlaume8kPY4zh47Gjgxr0UDiHVthDaKlnTfbNpI/v/Ud30gsCTkYI1Kh2zrZovaQUjxdp93L2/cEbG2Zz6GdW7Dywv0pJ+t1Fvcao= X-Alimail-AntiSpam: AC=PASS; BC=-1|-1; BR=01201311R841e4; FP=0|-1|-1|-1|0|-1|-1|-1; HT=e02c03287; MF=kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com; NM=1; PH=DS; RN=3; SR=0; Received: from 10.1.155.217(mailfrom:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com ip:42.120.74.157) by smtp.aliyun-inc.com(127.0.0.1); Thu, 06 Aug 2015 16:27:07 +0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.8.150116 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 16:27:03 +0800 From: "Kepeng Li" To: "Kepeng Li" , "ace@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3521723227_3006429" Archived-At: Cc: Hannes Tschofenig Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 08:27:15 -0000 > ʼʹ MIME ʽʼĶʶ ˸ʽˣ޷ʶʼķֲ򲿷ݡ --B_3521723227_3006429 Content-type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Kindly remind that tomorrow is the deadline. Kind Regards Kepeng =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Li Kepeng =C8=D5=C6=DA: Friday, 24 July, 2015 7:17 pm =D6=C1: "ace@ietf.org" =B3=AD=CB=CD: Hannes Tschofenig =D6=F7=CC=E2: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 Hello all, This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the charter. The call ends on Aug 7, 2015. Keep in mind that adoption of a document does not mean the document as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the document as a starting point for what will be the final product of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to the document according to the normal consensus process. There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close of this Call. Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition, preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item. Thanks, Kind Regards Kepeng & Hannes _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace --B_3521723227_3006429 Content-type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Kindly remind that tomorrow is t= he deadline.

Kind Regards
Kepeng

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Li Kepeng <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
= =C8=D5=C6=DA: Friday, 24 July, 2015 7:17 pm=D6=C1: "= ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
= =B3=AD=CB=CD: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-ge= rdes-ace-actors-05

Hello all,

This note begins a Call For Adoption for d=
raft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to
be adopted as an A=
CE working group item, and added in the charter.
The call ends on Aug 7, 2015.

Keep in mind that adoption of a document does not mean the d=
ocument
as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the
document as a starting point for what will be the final product
of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to
the document according to the normal consensus process.

There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at
IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close
of this Call.

Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition,
preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng & Hannes
_______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/ace --B_3521723227_3006429-- From nobody Thu Aug 6 05:03:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8781B2E03 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 05:03:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p0s3Z5GBh6Bq for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 05:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-f44.google.com (mail-la0-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5A0B1ACEC4 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by labow3 with SMTP id ow3so47686159lab.1 for ; Thu, 06 Aug 2015 05:03:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=0XL37yZtMYimAasCAnLxe3LVYKkN6lweglIb93WMWQQ=; b=JywGrFYMIT/sBQuEF3jeBb9ztoNBGclQjNyYqXSvpjOeTTV86+H+BJebjup1HH0C/E EgcYFpoPs3dwl2vzRpfOhbHmxiQBZsFshHw/2yrY/nXdOysoRbdaadBN+jz9mJJRUy90 q7Mn6sMdSxbBC21xt82W9YppG5wBK5YauZB+a8HgdLUjHrY/iUEZKXH0NNMKln8yIliH SUNohHsXWGOAFRzgDULSf26c3iYN7CvtEghkIu1Xkqc7DWz68ZWjXBrxs/7hzFPp0RCJ Uac7GllnZzoUIQNF0YV6qFrZGiHWdBW+3TxGQ1orLytsWCoQwMaCG5x8V6gSeDrsNIx2 in0A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmkJ4edLZQ2Ev9jrY9tFWSZLlosklcFH2HfKtb4aTH1XB/MbYOmrxnq3rwDndiuk6uBXESt X-Received: by 10.112.144.199 with SMTP id so7mr1143661lbb.109.1438862630090; Thu, 06 Aug 2015 05:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shahidmac.sics.se (shahidmac.sics.se. [193.10.67.159]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id yf5sm1337532lab.1.2015.08.06.05.03.49 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Aug 2015 05:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6FF166A5-A69D-45D6-B0B4-7796C82D2A66" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: Shahid Raza In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:03:48 +0200 Message-Id: References: To: Kepeng Li X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , "ace@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 12:03:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6FF166A5-A69D-45D6-B0B4-7796C82D2A66 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 +1 I support adopting it as WG item. Regards Shahid > On 06 Aug 2015, at 10:27, Kepeng Li = wrote: >=20 > Kindly remind that tomorrow is the deadline. >=20 > Kind Regards > Kepeng >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Li Kepeng > > =E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F: Friday, 24 July, 2015 7:17 pm > =E8=87=B3: "ace@ietf.org " > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Hannes Tschofenig > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Ace] Call for adoption for = draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 >=20 > Hello all, >=20 > This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 = to > be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the charter. > The call ends on Aug 7, 2015. >=20 > Keep in mind that adoption of a document does not mean the document > as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the > document as a starting point for what will be the final product > of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to > the document according to the normal consensus process. >=20 > There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at > IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close > of this Call. >=20 > Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition, > preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Kind Regards > Kepeng & Hannes > _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list = Ace@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace = = _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace = --Apple-Mail=_6FF166A5-A69D-45D6-B0B4-7796C82D2A66 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
+1

I = support adopting it as WG item.

Regards
Shahid

On = 06 Aug 2015, at 10:27, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:

Kindly remind that tomorrow is the deadline.

Kind Regards
Kepeng

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Li Kepeng <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F: Friday, 24 July, = 2015 7:17 pm
=E8=87=B3: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81= : Hannes = Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Ace] Call for = adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05

Hello all,

This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to
be adopted as an ACE working group item, and =
added in the charter.
The call = ends on Aug 7, 2015.

Keep in mind that adoption of a document does =
not mean the document
as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the
document as a starting point for what will be the final product
of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to
the document according to the normal consensus process.

There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at
IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close
of this Call.

Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition,
preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work =
item.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng & =
Hannes
_____________________________________= __________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace _______________________________________________
Ace mailing = list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

= --Apple-Mail=_6FF166A5-A69D-45D6-B0B4-7796C82D2A66-- From nobody Thu Aug 6 05:26:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ace@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2A31A8A5E for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 05:26:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8A6CnvCWZCeA for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 05:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maxwell.ifi.uzh.ch (maxwell.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.155.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F48F1A037E for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 05:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authenticated sender schmitt by maxwell.ifi.uzh.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id SA for <70483CF59C>; ace@ietf.org To: ace@ietf.org References: From: Corinna Schmitt Message-ID: <55C35274.8010101@ifi.uzh.ch> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:26:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040101010409080904050709" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at maxwell X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 X-BeenThere: ace@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments \(ace\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 12:26:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040101010409080904050709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +1 Regards, Corinna Am 06.08.15 um 14:03 schrieb Shahid Raza: > +1 > > I support adopting it as WG item. > > Regards > Shahid > >> On 06 Aug 2015, at 10:27, Kepeng Li > > wrote: >> >> Kindly remind that tomorrow is the deadline. >> >> Kind Regards >> Kepeng >> >> 发件人:Li Kepeng > > >> 日期:Friday, 24 July, 2015 7:17 pm >> 至:"ace@ietf.org " > > >> 抄送:Hannes Tschofenig > > >> 主题:[Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 >> >> Hello all, >> This note begins a Call For Adoption fordraft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 >> to >> be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the charter. >> The call ends on Aug 7, 2015. >> >> Keep in mind that adoption of a document does not mean the document >> as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the >> document as a starting point for what will be the final product >> of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to >> the document according to the normal consensus process. >> >> There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at >> IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close >> of this Call. >> >> Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition, >> preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item. >> Thanks, >> Kind Regards >> Kepeng & Hannes >> _______________________________________________ Ace mailing >> listAce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace_______________________________________________ >> Ace mailing list >> Ace@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace -- ****************************************************** Dr. Corinna Schmitt Head of Mobile and Trusted Communications University of Zurich Department of Informatics (IFI) Communication Systems Group (CSG) Binzmühlestrasse 14 8050 Zürich, Switzerland Phone: +41 (0)44 6357585 Fax: +41 (0)44 635 6809 schmitt@ifi.uzh.ch http://www.csg.uzh.ch/staff/schmitt --------------040101010409080904050709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
+1

Regards,
Corinna

Am 06.08.15 um 14:03 schrieb Shahid Raza:
+1

I support adopting it as WG item.

Regards
Shahid

On 06 Aug 2015, at 10:27, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:

Kindly remind that tomorrow is the deadline.

Kind Regards
Kepeng

发件人: Li Kepeng <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
日期: Friday, 24 July, 2015 7:17 pm
至: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
抄送: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
主题: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05

Hello all,

                        
This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to

                        
be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the charter.

                      

                    
                    
The call ends on Aug 7, 2015.

                  

                

              
              


              

              
                

                  

                      

                        
Keep in mind that adoption of a document does not mean the document
as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the
document as a starting point for what will be the final product
of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to
the document according to the normal consensus process.

There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at
IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close
of this Call.

Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition,
preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item.

                        

                        
Thanks,

                        

                        
Kind Regards

                        
Kepeng & Hannes

                      

                    

                

                _______________________________________________ Ace
                mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace _______________________________________________

              Ace
                mailing list

              Ace@ietf.org

              https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

          

        

        

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


    

    

    

    
-- 

******************************************************
Dr. Corinna Schmitt
Head of Mobile and Trusted Communications

University of Zurich
Department of Informatics (IFI)
Communication Systems Group (CSG)
Binzmühlestrasse 14
8050 Zürich, Switzerland

Phone: +41 (0)44 6357585
Fax: +41 (0)44 635 6809

schmitt@ifi.uzh.ch
http://www.csg.uzh.ch/staff/schmitt 

  


--------------040101010409080904050709--


From nobody Thu Aug  6 05:35:19 2015
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+1

Corinna Schmitt wrote:
> +1
>
> Regards,
> Corinna


From nobody Thu Aug  6 10:37:38 2015
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Kepeng Li  wrote:
    > Kindly remind that tomorrow is the deadline.

I have read the document, and I am in favour of adoption.
I think that I already expressed support.

I think that I read every revision, and -05 is pretty close
to perfect, I think.


--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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+1 to adopting as a wg doc







-steve









From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kepeng Li <=
kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>

Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4=
:27 AM

To: Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>

Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>

Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoptio=
n for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05













Kindly remind that tomorrow is the deadline.







Kind Regards


Kepeng









=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Li Kepeng <<=
a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com=
>

=C8=D5=C6=DA: Friday, 24 July, 2015=
 7:17 pm

=D6=C1: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@i=
etf.org>

=B3=AD=CB=CD: Hannes Tschofenig <=
;hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net=
>

=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Ace] Call for adopti=
on for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05













Hello all,







This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to


be adopted as an ACE working group item, and a=
dded in the charter.





The call ends on Aug 7=
, 2015.




















Keep in mind that adoption of a document does =
not mean the document
as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the
document as a starting point for what will be the final product
of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to
the document according to the normal consensus process.

There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at
IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close
of this Call.

Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition,
preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item.





Thanks,





Kind Regards


Kepeng & Hannes







_______________________________________________ Ace mailing list 
Ace@ietf.org http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace







--_000_D1E95DB01C39Bsrmooremitreorg_--


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From: "Kumar, Sandeep" 
To: Kepeng Li , "ace@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05
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+1



Would be a valuable docum=
ent


 <=
/p>

Sandeep=



 <=
/p>







From: Ace [mai=
lto:ace-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Kepeng Li

Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 10:27 AM

To: Kepeng Li; ace@ietf.org

Cc: Hannes Tschofenig

Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05<=
o:p>






 




Kindly =
remind that tomorrow is the deadline.






&n=
bsp;






Kind Re=
gards






Kepeng<=
o:p>






&n=
bsp;






=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:
Li Kepeng <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>

=C8=
=D5=C6=DA:
Friday, 24 July, 2015 7:17 pm

=D6=
=C1:
"a=
ce@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org&=
gt;

=B3=
=AD=CB=CD:
Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>

=D6=
=F7=CC=E2:
[Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerde=
s-ace-actors-05






&n=
bsp;










Hello all,<=
o:p>






 

This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to<=
/span>


be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the ch=
arter.






The call ends on Aug 7, 2015.










&n=
bsp;










Keep in mind that adoption o=
f a document does not mean the document


as-is is ready for publicati=
on. It is merely acceptance of the


document as a starting point=
 for what will be the final product


of the ACE working group. Th=
e working group is free to make changes to


the document according to th=
e normal consensus process.


 

There were favorable support=
s toward adoption of this document at


IETF 93 in Prague. We will f=
actor this into the decision at the close


of this Call.


 

Please reply on this thread =
with expressions of support or opposition,


preferably with comments, re=
garding accepting this as a work item.


 


Thanks,


 


Kind Regards


Kepeng & Hannes








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From nobody Sun Aug  9 19:35:34 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" 
To: "'Stefanie Gerdes'" 
References: <201507192039.t6JKd23i029430@mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de>
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Cc: draft-gerdes-ace-actors@tools.ietf.org, ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-gerdes-ace-actors
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I glanced at the -03 version.  It did a better job of separating things =
in section 2.1.  I would suggest restoring that structure.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefanie Gerdes [mailto:gerdes@tzi.de]
> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 1:39 PM
> To: Jim Schaad
> Cc: draft-gerdes-ace-actors@tools.ietf.org; ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-gerdes-ace-actors
>=20
> Hi Jim,
>=20
> I think that the -03 version [1] of the draft addressed a lot of the =
issues you are
> mentioning. It had a clear focus, listed the tasks and explained the =
need for the
> different actors.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Steffi
>=20
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-gerdes-ace-actors-03.pdf
>=20
> Am 19.07.2015 13:20 schrieb Jim Schaad :
> >
> > I have read through this draft and my first comment is - I don't
> > understand what this draft is trying to accomplish.  My confusion
> > begins in the second paragraph of the abstract where it says that it
> > is providing "elements of an architecture / a problem statement".
> >
> > The idea of providing terminology is reasonable - although I =
generally
> > don't believe that a standalone document is a good place to do so
> > unless you are doing a lot of definitions.  And for the most part =
you
> > just use the same ones as OAuth is using.   I can see providing an
> > architecture that is going to be reasonable complete or a problem
> > statement.  But doing just elements of those is not useful.  How is
> > one to evaluate anything against it if just pieces are given but not =
anything
> representing a complete picture.
> >
> > Introduction:
> >
> > * constrained devices are not the only ones for which ACLs are not
> > sufficiently generic.  There are lots of places where doing access
> > control is off-loaded from a device to another system.  Even with =
ACLs
> > you need to discuss how authorization would be dealt with.   This
> > statement could be much clearer.
> >
> > *  If you are going to tell me that there are security tasks that
> > cannot be done, you need to provide a list of what security tasks =
you
> > care about someplace so I can verify this for myself.  Also, for =
many
> > of these tasks it is necessary to offload even when they can be done =
by the
> device.
> > Offloading authorization is not uncommon even for larger devices.
> >
> > * Just saying that limitations are a problem is not generally =
helpful.
> > It would be better to list some of the reasons for each security =
task
> > you care about.  Since people are going to need to make decisions
> > about what things can and cannot be placed together and having such =
a
> > list would be helpful in that regard.
> >
> > * Doing forward references to fulfill some of these requests is
> > perfectly reasonable.
> >
> > Terminology:
> >
> > *  I am completely lost by the last sentence in this section.  It =
may
> > be signature structure, but it is also an issue with what you are
> > talking about for client-side authorization.
> >
> > * Should "endpoint" be part of the terminology section?
> >
> > Architecture:
> >
> > *  I have a problem with bullet #1 - It may be due to working in =
SACM
> > and depends on how one defines endpoint.  However I see no reason =
that
> > an endpoint cannot host the functionality of AS and CAS as well so
> > this bullet is not complete.
> >
> > *  The term "constrained level" pops up out of the middle of nowhere =
-
> > this really needs to be defined.  Perhaps this should be a section
> > title with and introduction before you start.
> >
> > *  The introduction of the CSA does not seem logical if it is to =
help
> > make requests of the RS.  This needs more justification.  I would =
have
> > thought it was there to control the C and what it does with things.
> > This seemed to be the Objective type 2 statement from above.   If =
you
> > are making it a support item, then it does not make sense either to
> > call it an access control  point or to say it is being controlled by
> > the RqP.  It could just as easily be either a neutral party or the =
AS that is being
> talked to.
> >
> > Information Flows
> >
> > *  I don't understand the reason for complicating the diagram.
> > Having it be the simple version, at least at first presentation of
> > flows, makes it easier to understand.  You can talk about the =
reflection at a
> later point.
> >
> > *  Why do you have information flows as one directional between CAS =
and C?
> >
> > Missing Architecture issues
> >
> > * Why do you not talk about the presence or absence of AS and CAS
> > nodes at times
> >
> > * Store and forward should be discussed in this document. (i.e.
> > combination of push and pull models)
> >
> > *  Better description of type 2 security objects needs to be
> > undertaken - specifically why we would care about them.
> >
> > Security Objectives:
> >
> > *  I assume that access is also a security object that is addressed =
by
> > authorization.
> >
> > *  Kill the term non-repudiation - I don't know what this means and
> > there is not a great deal of agreement on its meaning.
> >
> > * You absolutely need some measure of authentication involved.  The
> > paragraph 2 needs have a cleaner start that what it does.  You =
really
> > need to talk about authentication, are you authenticating the device
> > or are you authentication any device (or some set of devices) that =
are
> > owned by somebody.  These are different authentication models.
> >
> > ****
> >
> > I am tired and going to stop at this point.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ace mailing list
> > Ace@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> >


From nobody Mon Aug 10 01:28:58 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" 
To: 
References: 
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:29:18 -0700
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Forgot to cc the mailing list.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Schaad [mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com]
> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 11:19 PM
> To: 'draft-gerdes-ace-actors@tools.ietf.org'
> Subject: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
> 
> Trying to continue my review from before.
> 
> *  I find following the actor abbreviations to be difficult to follow.  It
would be
> easier if the names were reflective of each other.  I am not sure if you
are
> grabbing the names from a different world in which case this probably
cannot be
> done.
> So it would be easier with   C <--> R,  CAS <--> RAS,   CO <--> RO.
Trying to
> figure out that RqP belongs on the C side of the world is somewhat
confusing for
> a first time reader.  Similarly the fact that AS has a prefix for the C
side but not
> the R side is difficult.  As things stand one cannot discuss an AS as a
standalone
> entity which is a generic CAS and RAS item and contrast it with the
differences
> from being on one side or the other.
> 
> *  Section 5, para 2-  Suggest 'an actor is an entity which performs a set
of tasks,
> has a security domain (client domain or resource domain), and a level
> (constrained, less-constrained or principal).'  The second sentence in
this
> paragraph adds no additional detail.
> 
> * Section 5, para 3 - s/for constrained devices/for the architecture/.
The
> second sentence in this paragraph probably wants to say something along
the
> lines of 'An extant architecture can combine multiple actors into a single
physical
> entity.    In this case the combined entity needs to deal with all of the
security
> requirements of the logical actors.
> 
> *  Section 5.1 - As I understand things, the task 'Validate that an entity
is an
> authorized server for R' should be assigned the CAS and not to C.  I could
be
> wrong - it might be assigned to AS.  But it is still not a task for C
> 
> *  Section 5.1 - The last sentence is not making sense to me.  Based on
the
> definition of security domains in section 5, C and RS are always going to
belong
> to different security domains even if the resource owners are the same.
One of
> these needs to be clarified.
> 
> *  Section 5.1 - Kill figure 8 and point to figure 1
> 
> *  Section 5.2 - Why is this your objective?  It might be your model or
> architecture, but it is hardly an objective.
> 
> *  Section 5.2 - para 1 - the last sentence is unclear - do the principals
belong to
> the same security domain or do the principals and their resources belong
to the
> same security domain.  The latter is what seems to be said.
> 
> * Section 5.3 - bullet 3 - who is it doing the negotiation with?  Itself
and C?  that
> is what the text seems to imply
> 
> *  Section 5.3 - Should this section also discuss discovery.  How is C
supposed to
> discover the existence of R and the identity of RS?
> 
> * Section 6.1 - What are the requirements that DTLS considers?  If you
don't tell
> me what the requirements are in this section then there is no reason for
me to
> believe that you have good examples in this section.   Additionally, what
you
> have listed here are just transport protocols.  What about the data that
is going
> to be transported using this protocol?  How do these protocols need to be
> designed?  What levels do the constraints needs to be examined?  Transport
> level?  Security Level?  Data Level?  Discovery
> 
> *  Section 6 is not delivering any useful information.  Either it needs to
have
> information that is needed or it should just be eliminated.
> 
> * Section  7.1 - are you moving authorization information, or
authorization
> decisions from AS to RS?
> 
> * Section  7.1 - What about dealing with authorization information going
> between CAS and AS?
> 
> * Section 7.1 - The second sentence in bullet 3 seems to be misplaced.
> 
> * Section 7.1 - Why is C not enforcing authorization decisions as well?
> 
> * Section 7.2 - bullet 1 - Is there a need for mutual authentication?
> 
> * Section 7.2 - bullet 3 - the second sentence is positing a solution not
a
> requirement.
> 
> * Section 7.2 - bullet 4 - I don't know why this is not written in the
same way as
> bullet 3 - you are just authenticating properties not the entire thing.
> 
> *  Section 8 - I am not sure what the purpose of this section is for.  It
would
> seem to be better to fold this into section 7.
> 
> 
> 



From nobody Mon Aug 10 22:22:20 2015
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From nobody Tue Aug 11 12:19:08 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" 
To: =?utf-8?Q?'G=C3=B6ran_Selander'?= , 
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Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 10:22 PM
> To: Jim Schaad; ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
>=20
>=20
> Just commenting on the terminology, which has already has been =
discussed for
> quite some time.
>=20
>=20
> On 2015-08-10 10:29, "Jim Schaad"  wrote:
>=20
> >Forgot to cc the mailing list.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jim Schaad [mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com]
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 11:19 PM
> >> To: 'draft-gerdes-ace-actors@tools.ietf.org'
> >> Subject: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
> >>
> >> Trying to continue my review from before.
> >>
> >> *  I find following the actor abbreviations to be difficult to =
follow.
> >>It
> >would be
> >> easier if the names were reflective of each other.  I am not sure =
if
> >> you
> >are
> >> grabbing the names from a different world in which case this =
probably
> >cannot be
> >> done.
>=20
> Yes, all terms except CAS are OAuth/UMA terminology. CAS was coined in
> version -04 without any discussion whatsoever in what I believe was an
> expression of fatigue over the prior terminology discussion.
>=20
> >> So it would be easier with   C <--> R,  CAS <--> RAS,   CO <--> RO.
> >Trying to
> >> figure out that RqP belongs on the C side of the world is somewhat
> >confusing for
> >> a first time reader.  Similarly the fact that AS has a prefix for =
the
> >> C
> >side but not
> >> the R side is difficult.  As things stand one cannot discuss an AS =
as
> >> a
> >standalone
> >> entity which is a generic CAS and RAS item and contrast it with the
> >differences
> >> from being on one side or the other.
>=20
>=20
> I also think the current terminology is unpractical, unaesthetical and =
confusing.
> However, the proposal above does not end the confusion: The ACE =
=E2=80=9CResource=E2=80=9D
> may be CoAP =E2=80=9CClient=E2=80=9D, e.g. in a publish-subscribe =
setting where the resource
> representations are published by to an intermediary message broker =
using a
> CoAP PUT request. In this case the RO is =E2=80=9Cowning=E2=80=9D a =
Client and the RAS
> managing the policies of a Client.

I would not be a fan of changing the terminology if it is coming from a =
world where it is well understood and fixed.   Constantly renaming =
things is never useful.

I disagree with you about what is happing in the case of a =
publish-subscribe setting.  The resource that is being discussed is =
still R, on RS and owned by RO.  What is "wrong" is that figure 1 is =
incomplete.  There are two different information flows between C and RS =
that should be documented there.  The first is that which matches a =
"GET" where the C requests information from RS and RS responds with it.  =
The second is the case where RS spontaneously provides information to C =
due to some internal state change.  The latter matches a "PUT/POST" =
situation.   For both sets of information flow, the set of entities and =
resources are the same.  Only the way that information flows changes.

However, this does point out that there are several actors which are =
missing from the document that needs to be discussed.

Data Store - this is a component which is used to hold intermediate =
results.  Is this a constrained device?  Does it talk constrained and =
less-constrained protocols?  It can be owned by CO, RO or a third party. =
 There are interesting security properties. =20

Proxy - I am having a hard time understanding CoAP proxies, but it seems =
that there is a formal method of dealing with going through proxies =
which change the message being transported.  How does this change the =
security properties of the message.  One example is that I believe that =
the destination URL is changed by the proxy and therefore cannot be part =
of the signed message

jim

>=20
> *If* we can motivate inventing our own ACE terminology then one =
requirement
> is to make sure that the new terms avoids this confusion by decoupling =
ACE
> terminology from CoAP/REST terminology, e.g. using Consumer/Provider
> instead of Client/Server. But I=E2=80=99m not sure it is worth the =
effort. The current
> terminology (except for CAS) at least has the good that it is known to =
a much
> larger community.
>=20
> G=C3=B6ran



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Thread-Topic: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
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From nobody Wed Aug 12 23:34:27 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" 
To: =?UTF-8?Q?'G=C3=B6ran_Selander'?= , 
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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:34:42 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 3:34 PM
> To: Jim Schaad; ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 2015-08-11 21:19, "Jim Schaad"  wrote:
>=20
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: G=C3=B6ran Selander [mailto:goran.selander@ericsson.com]
> >> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 10:22 PM
> >> To: Jim Schaad; ace@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
> >>
> >>
> >> Just commenting on the terminology, which has already has been
> >>discussed for  quite some time.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2015-08-10 10:29, "Jim Schaad"  wrote:
> >>
> >> >Forgot to cc the mailing list.
> >> >
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Jim Schaad [mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com]
> >> >> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 11:19 PM
> >> >> To: 'draft-gerdes-ace-actors@tools.ietf.org'
> >> >> Subject: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
> >> >>
> >> >> Trying to continue my review from before.
> >> >>
> >> >> *  I find following the actor abbreviations to be difficult to
> >>follow.
> >> >>It
> >> >would be
> >> >> easier if the names were reflective of each other.  I am not =
sure
> >> >> if you
> >> >are
> >> >> grabbing the names from a different world in which case this
> >> >> probably
> >> >cannot be
> >> >> done.
> >>
> >> Yes, all terms except CAS are OAuth/UMA terminology. CAS was coined
> >> in version -04 without any discussion whatsoever in what I believe
> >> was an expression of fatigue over the prior terminology discussion.
> >>
> >> >> So it would be easier with   C <--> R,  CAS <--> RAS,   CO <--> =
RO.
> >> >Trying to
> >> >> figure out that RqP belongs on the C side of the world is =
somewhat
> >> >confusing for
> >> >> a first time reader.  Similarly the fact that AS has a prefix =
for
> >> >> the C
> >> >side but not
> >> >> the R side is difficult.  As things stand one cannot discuss an =
AS
> >> >> as a
> >> >standalone
> >> >> entity which is a generic CAS and RAS item and contrast it with
> >> >> the
> >> >differences
> >> >> from being on one side or the other.
> >>
> >>
> >> I also think the current terminology is unpractical, unaesthetical
> >>and confusing.
> >> However, the proposal above does not end the confusion: The ACE
> >>=E2=80=9CResource=E2=80=9D
> >> may be CoAP =E2=80=9CClient=E2=80=9D, e.g. in a publish-subscribe =
setting where the
> >>resource  representations are published by to an intermediary =
message
> >>broker using a  CoAP PUT request. In this case the RO is =
=E2=80=9Cowning=E2=80=9D a
> >>Client and the RAS  managing the policies of a Client.
> >
> >I would not be a fan of changing the terminology if it is coming from =
a
> >world where it is well understood and fixed.   Constantly renaming =
things
> >is never useful.
> >
> >I disagree with you about what is happing in the case of a
> >publish-subscribe setting.  The resource that is being discussed is
> >still R, on RS and owned by RO.  What is "wrong" is that figure 1 is
> >incomplete.  There are two different information flows between C and =
RS
> >that should be documented there.  The first is that which matches a =
"GET"
> >where the C requests information from RS and RS responds with it.  =
The
> >second is the case where RS spontaneously provides information to C =
due
> >to some internal state change.  The latter matches a "PUT/POST"
> >situation.
>=20
> And yet another variant is using the CoAP Option =
=E2=80=9CObserve=E2=80=9D which allows a
> single =E2=80=9CGET=E2=80=9D request to have multiple responses, e.g. =
triggered by internal state
> change.
>=20
> >For both sets of information flow, the set of entities and resources
> >are the same.  Only the way that information flows changes.
>=20
> Yes, the ACE entities and resources are the same.  But the CoAP =
entities and
> resources may be different. For example, the Resource Server may be a =
CoAP
> Client, and a Message/Pub-Sub Broker may be a CoAP Server.  The point =
I was
> trying to make was just that for example the term =
=E2=80=9CClient=E2=80=9D may be ambiguous
> unless it is understood whether it is the ACE entity or the CoAP =
entity that is
> being referred to.
>=20

One chooses a terminology and sticks to it.  I there are conflicts then =
one prefixes the one not used in the current document (i.e. 'CoAP =
client') or both if it is ambiguous.  You are going to have conflicting =
terminology no matter what you use, so you chose one and stick to it.  =
Sometimes it is just a pain.  I had a document where I ended up creating =
a table of what all of the different protocols called each of the three =
entities in the architecture draft so that people could follow along.  =
It made for occasional messy writing, but it made for a much more =
consistent experience for the reader.

>=20
> >
> >However, this does point out that there are several actors which are
> >missing from the document that needs to be discussed.
>=20
> Various proxies are presented in the CoAP specification and the =
Pub-Sub Broker
> in a separate draft. Some of these are mentioned in section 3.1 but =
maybe this
> needs further elaboration?

If they are to be considered part of the standard architecture draft, =
the absolutely need to be defined here and not in some other place.    I =
am not seeing a draft which is jumping out as the pub-Sub draft.  But it =
should probably just be defining protocols and not architecture.  This =
would be true of other drafts as well.  They can restate a small piece =
of an architecture, but I expect this draft to cover all of the =
core/normal items that are going to show up in an architecture.  If I =
have to read 15 drafts to understand the architecture, I will never be =
able to do an adequate job of evaluating the security properties and if =
the solutions are going to actually solve the problem.

>=20
> >
> >Data Store - this is a component which is used to hold intermediate
> >results.  Is this a constrained device?  Does it talk constrained and
> >less-constrained protocols?  It can be owned by CO, RO or a third =
party.
> >There are interesting security properties.
>=20
> Good questions. This may be application dependent. At least the option =
that it is
> a third untrusted/untrusting party should be covered. For pub-sub =
brokers, the
> ability to verify that publications originate from a certain publisher =
without
> reading the publication has been mentioned both in the context of the =
Pub-Sub
> Broker draft and ICN applications.
>=20
> >
> >Proxy - I am having a hard time understanding CoAP proxies, but it
> >seems that there is a formal method of dealing with going through
> >proxies which change the message being transported.  How does this
> >change the security properties of the message.  One example is that I
> >believe that the destination URL is changed by the proxy and =
therefore
> >cannot be part of the signed message
>=20
> Proxies specified in CoAP have a defined behaviour. If that behaviour =
is
> predictable by the end-points, then it is possible to define an =
invariant which is
> signed by the sending endpoint and verified by the receiving endpoint. =
This
> applies for example to destination URI (See integrity protection of =
CoAP Option
> =E2=80=9CProxy-Uri" in Appendix A of =
draft-selander-ace-object-security).
>=20
> If the proxy behaviour is not predictable by the end-points, as with =
e.g.
> CoAP Options =E2=80=9CObserve" or "Max-Age", then it is not possible =
to define an
> invariant and the corresponding data cannot be integrity protected =
endpoint-to-
> endpoint.

Again - good points to be covered in the draft if it is going to be =
talking about CoAP as a message format.  Otherwise generic information =
is sufficient.  Is CoAP the "only" format that is proposed for the =
constrained layer?

>=20
>=20
>=20
> G=C3=B6ran
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
> >jim
> >
> >>
> >> *If* we can motivate inventing our own ACE terminology then one
> >>requirement  is to make sure that the new terms avoids this =
confusion
> >>by decoupling ACE  terminology from CoAP/REST terminology, e.g. =
using
> >>Consumer/Provider  instead of Client/Server. But I=E2=80=99m not =
sure it is
> >>worth the effort. The current  terminology (except for CAS) at least
> >>has the good that it is known to a much  larger community.
> >>
> >> G=C3=B6ran
> >
> >



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Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
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On 2015-08-13 08:34, Jim Schaad wrote:

>> Yes, the ACE entities and resources are the same.  But the CoAP entiti=
es and
>> resources may be different. For example, the Resource Server may be a =
CoAP
>> Client, and a Message/Pub-Sub Broker may be a CoAP Server.  The point =
I was
>> trying to make was just that for example the term =E2=80=9CClient=E2=80=
=9D may be ambiguous
>> unless it is understood whether it is the ACE entity or the CoAP entit=
y that is
>> being referred to.
>>
>
> One chooses a terminology and sticks to it.

I don't think G=C3=B6ran was disagreeing with that (neither do I).
I the chosen terminology is (as stated in the actors draft):

C, RS, AS, RO (coming from OAuth)
CAS, RqP (invented here to represent the new actors on the Client side).

We should re-check the document to see if we are using the terms Client=20
or Server in the CoAP sense somewhere, although I doubt it.

>>>
>>> However, this does point out that there are several actors which are
>>> missing from the document that needs to be discussed.
>>
>> Various proxies are presented in the CoAP specification and the Pub-Su=
b Broker
>> in a separate draft. Some of these are mentioned in section 3.1 but ma=
ybe this
>> needs further elaboration?
>
> If they are to be considered part of the standard architecture draft,
 > the absolutely need to be defined here and not in some other place.
 > I am not seeing a draft which is jumping out as the pub-Sub draft.
 > But it should probably just be defining protocols and not
 > architecture. This would be true of other drafts as well.
 >  They can restate a small piece of an architecture, but I expect this =

draft to
 > cover all of the core/normal items that are going to show up in an=20
architecture.
 >  If I have to read 15 drafts to understand the architecture, I will=20
never be able
 > to do an adequate job of evaluating the security properties and if=20
the solutions
 > are going to actually solve the problem.

The publish subscribe draft G=C3=B6ran refers to is=20
draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-02, however this draft does only describes =

the CoAP part of it and does not go into the details of the ACE problem=20
space.
If we want to define a new actors to represent this, it would be the=20
"Untrusted Intermediary". Question is, what is the value to specify it=20
as an actor in this draft, since we cannot require or expect any=20
specific behavior from it and thus we cannot assign (security) tasks to i=
t.

>
[...]
>> If the proxy behaviour is not predictable by the end-points, as with e=
=2Eg.
>> CoAP Options =E2=80=9CObserve" or "Max-Age", then it is not possible t=
o define an
>> invariant and the corresponding data cannot be integrity protected end=
point-to-
>> endpoint.
>
> Again - good points to be covered in the draft if it is going to be tal=
king about
 > CoAP as a message format.  Otherwise generic information is
 > sufficient.
> Is CoAP the "only" format that is proposed for the constrained layer?
>

I think at the level of the usecases and the actors draft we don't want=20
to be specific to CoAP. The CoAP specific handling of proxies et al. and =

the resulting security implications should be dealt with in the solution =

documents.
Do you think the generic information on proxies given in the actors=20
draft at this point is sufficient?


/Ludwig

--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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From nobody Thu Aug 13 10:34:21 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" 
To: "'Ludwig Seitz'" , 
References: <004201d0d346$a6756fb0$f3604f10$@augustcellars.com>  <03d801d0d46a$a3da29b0$eb8e7d10$@augustcellars.com>  <022401d0d592$23a805e0$6af811a0$@augustcellars.com> <55CC59AF.3010703@sics.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ludwig Seitz
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 1:48 AM
> To: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: draft-gerdes-ace-actors
>=20
> On 2015-08-13 08:34, Jim Schaad wrote:
>=20
> >> Yes, the ACE entities and resources are the same.  But the CoAP
> >> entities and resources may be different. For example, the Resource
> >> Server may be a CoAP Client, and a Message/Pub-Sub Broker may be a
> >> CoAP Server.  The point I was trying to make was just that for
> >> example the term =E2=80=9CClient=E2=80=9D may be ambiguous unless =
it is understood
> >> whether it is the ACE entity or the CoAP entity that is being =
referred to.
> >>
> >
> > One chooses a terminology and sticks to it.
>=20
> I don't think G=C3=B6ran was disagreeing with that (neither do I).
> I the chosen terminology is (as stated in the actors draft):
>=20
> C, RS, AS, RO (coming from OAuth)
> CAS, RqP (invented here to represent the new actors on the Client =
side).
>=20
> We should re-check the document to see if we are using the terms =
Client or
> Server in the CoAP sense somewhere, although I doubt it.
>=20
> >>>
> >>> However, this does point out that there are several actors which =
are
> >>> missing from the document that needs to be discussed.
> >>
> >> Various proxies are presented in the CoAP specification and the
> >> Pub-Sub Broker in a separate draft. Some of these are mentioned in
> >> section 3.1 but maybe this needs further elaboration?
> >
> > If they are to be considered part of the standard architecture =
draft,
>  > the absolutely need to be defined here and not in some other place.
>  > I am not seeing a draft which is jumping out as the pub-Sub draft.
>  > But it should probably just be defining protocols and not  > =
architecture. This
> would be true of other drafts as well.
>  >  They can restate a small piece of an architecture, but I expect =
this draft to  >
> cover all of the core/normal items that are going to show up in an =
architecture.
>  >  If I have to read 15 drafts to understand the architecture, I will =
never be able
> > to do an adequate job of evaluating the security properties and if =
the solutions
> > are going to actually solve the problem.
>=20
> The publish subscribe draft G=C3=B6ran refers to is =
draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-02,
> however this draft does only describes the CoAP part of it and does =
not go into
> the details of the ACE problem space.
> If we want to define a new actors to represent this, it would be the =
"Untrusted
> Intermediary". Question is, what is the value to specify it as an =
actor in this
> draft, since we cannot require or expect any specific behavior from it =
and thus
> we cannot assign (security) tasks to it.

Ok - so from a architecture point of view we have
* An actor who will keep data at rest (affect security as session based =
connections are not sufficient)
* A solution to the fact that either C or RS may not always be active, =
but still want to publish/get data

These seem to me to be good reasons to document them

G=C3=B6ran in a message said that these data stores might be performing =
security operations - i.e. checking that the message is coming from the =
right entity - that means it needs to be incorporated into the security =
solution somehow.

>From a security point of view, how are these entities discovered and how =
does one know if they can be used or if a different entity should be =
used?  The last thing one wants to do is to subscribe to A when one =
should have subscribed to B in order to get information about R.

It is not clear that a data store is always going to be untrusted  It =
might in fact be a trusted agent.  In some cases it might, for example, =
upgrade the encryption security on a message because it is going to =
forward that message over the internet rather than a local net. =20

>=20
> >
> [...]
> >> If the proxy behaviour is not predictable by the end-points, as =
with e.g.
> >> CoAP Options =E2=80=9CObserve" or "Max-Age", then it is not =
possible to
> >> define an invariant and the corresponding data cannot be integrity
> >> protected endpoint-to- endpoint.
> >
> > Again - good points to be covered in the draft if it is going to be
> > talking about
>  > CoAP as a message format.  Otherwise generic information is  > =
sufficient.
> > Is CoAP the "only" format that is proposed for the constrained =
layer?
> >
>=20
> I think at the level of the usecases and the actors draft we don't =
want to be
> specific to CoAP. The CoAP specific handling of proxies et al. and the =
resulting
> security implications should be dealt with in the solution documents.
> Do you think the generic information on proxies given in the actors =
draft at this
> point is sufficient?

As I said above, yes that is sufficient as long as generic expected =
behaviors are covered.
By the way, I think that proxies are even more likely than data stores =
to be untrusted agents.

Jim

>=20
>=20
> /Ludwig
>=20
> --
> Ludwig Seitz, PhD
> SICS Swedish ICT AB
> Ideon Science Park
> Building Beta 2
> Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17
> SE-223 70 Lund
>=20
> Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
> http://www.sics.se



From nobody Fri Aug 14 05:18:05 2015
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:17:48 +0800
From: "Kepeng Li" 
To: "Kepeng Li" , "ace@ietf.org" 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05
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Hello all,

Based on the received feedback, it is concluded that the actors draft is
adopted as an ACE working group item.

Authors, please submit the document as draft-ietf-ace-actors-00.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  Li Kepeng 
=C8=D5=C6=DA:  Friday, 24 July, 2015 7:17 pm
=D6=C1:  "ace@ietf.org" 
=B3=AD=CB=CD:  Hannes Tschofenig 
=D6=F7=CC=E2:  [Ace] Call for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05

Hello all,

This note begins a Call For Adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05
  to
be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the charter.
The call ends on Aug 7, 2015.
Keep in mind that adoption of a document does not mean the document
as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the
document as a starting point for what will be the final product
of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to
the document according to the normal consensus process.

There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at
IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close
of this Call.

Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition,
preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng & Hannes
_______________________________________________ Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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He=
llo all,

Based on=
 the received feedback, it is concluded that the actors draft is adopted as =
an ACE working group item.

Authors, please submit the document as draft-ietf-ace-actors-00.


<=
/div>
Thanks,
=


Kind Regards
Kepeng

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  Li Kepeng <kepeng.lkp@al=
ibaba-inc.com>
=C8=D5=C6=DA:  Friday=
, 24 July, 2015 7:17 pm
=D6=C1:  "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
=B3=AD=CB=CD:  Hannes=
 Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig=
@gmx.net>
=D6=F7=CC=E2:  [Ace] Call =
for adoption for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05

Hello all,<=
/span>

This note begins a Call For Adoption=
 for draft-gerdes-ace-actors-05 to
be adopted as an ACE working group item, and added in the charter.
The call e=
nds on Aug 7, 2015.
Keep in mind that adoption of a document does no=
t mean the document
as-is is ready for publication. It is merely acceptance of the
document as a starting point for what will be the final product
of the ACE working group. The working group is free to make changes to
the document according to the normal consensus process.

There were favorable supports toward adoption of this document at
IETF 93 in Prague. We will factor this into the decision at the close
of this Call.

Please reply on this thread with expressions of support or opposition,
preferably with comments, regarding accepting this as a work item.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng & Hannes

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ace


--B_3522428274_13915550--



From nobody Fri Aug 21 07:34:28 2015
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To: "ace@ietf.org" 
From: Rene Struik 
Message-ID: <55D736EC.1050608@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:34:20 -0400
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Subject: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Dear colleagues:

I had a brief look at draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 and looked 
into signature sizes, where the idea would be to look for 
non-cryptographic fields where one may obtain encoding size savings.

It seems that one can shave off 14 octets of context info compared to 
the currently suggested encoding, when using ECDSA. This virtually 
eliminates the encoding size gap between "short Schnorr" and "full-size 
Schnorr" schemes (48 octets vs. 64 octets), essentially by not encoding 
the public key of the signer, since it is recoverable from the signature 
itself.

The same technique also applies to "full-size Schnorr" (as on the table 
with CFRG) or any similar signature scheme, provided one does not 
include the signer's public key in the information that is hashed with 
the signature. In those cases, the public key is recoverable from the 
signature and, e.g., certificate chains can leave out public keys in 
all-but-one of the certs in the chain. Leaving out the public key does 
not have a security impact (in the so-called "multi-user setting").

So, there is lots of low-hanging fruit that would allow reducing the 
encoding size of signatures, without possibly weakening the signature 
scheme itself.

Details:

If one would not include the public key in the information that is 
hashed with the signature (i.e., follows b) below) and sends the message 
info separately (i.e., uses "detached content" - Section 4.1.2.1), and 
uses CSM-style encoding, then one gets a signature-size of 66 octets, 
which one can squeeze down to 65 octets (compared to 79 octets figure 
mentioned in Annex E.2).

Thus, one can save 14 octets in the encoding of the header and signature 
compared to what is in the current draft, under a mild condition on the 
signature scheme (which - BTW - holds for ECDSA already, so there is 
FIPS Pub 186-3 precedence here):

Total size: 66 octets (can be squeezed down to 65 octets)
a) CSM Header Parameters (2 octets [but only 1 octet, if one optimizes 
this for ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr" -- see note below]):
- ALG (8 bits) --- ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr w/o. truncation";
- CL (5-bit) -- context identifier length is equal to zero, since public 
key of signer can be reconstructed from signature itself'
- SL (3-bit) -- sequence number length is equal to zero, since replay 
protection is provided by nonce in the message that is signed and not by 
the signature itself;
- CID (0 octets) --- no need, since public key reconstructed from 
signature itself
- SEQ (0 octets) -- no need, since freshness is provided by nonce in 
message and not part of signature scheme security services
NOTE RS: in Table 5, the CID and SEQ are supposed to be non-empty octet 
strings. Not sure why this is, since context may be defined implicitly 
if signature scheme allows this. Moreover, one can leave out length 
fields CL and SL if these are uniquely derived from signature scheme 
used. This would result in Optimized CSM Header with 1 octet length only.
b) Signature (64 octets):
- encoding of Schnorr w/o. truncation @ 256-bit security level

Details on public key reconstruction (w/ ECDSA):
Context: signature (R,s) over message m, with signer's public key Q; 
verification equation: R=(1/s)(eG+rQ), where e=H(m), r=f(R).
Input: m, (R,s)
Output: Q
-- computation: Q=(1/r)(sR-eG), where e=H(m), r=f(R)


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


From nobody Fri Aug 21 08:13:37 2015
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From: "Kumar, Sandeep" 
To: Rene Struik , "ace@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Hi Rene

I am confused...where in the draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 do they =
mention to send the public key along with the message. The Context Identifi=
er according to my understanding is just an identifier and not the public k=
ey itself (see F.1.1 "an identifier indicating which security context was u=
sed to integrity protect the message, and may be used as  an identifier for=
 a secret key or a public key.  (It may e.g. be the hash of a public key.).=
 In the case where the public key is implicitly derived fromteh signature,o=
ne may need to check against a hash to verify if it's the expected public-k=
ey.

The savings on the nonce (SL/SEQ) seem to be artificial by shifting it into=
 the payload.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Regards
Sandeep


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 4:34 PM
> To: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to
> reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
>
> Dear colleagues:
>
> I had a brief look at draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 and looked in=
to
> signature sizes, where the idea would be to look for non-cryptographic fi=
elds
> where one may obtain encoding size savings.
>
> It seems that one can shave off 14 octets of context info compared to the
> currently suggested encoding, when using ECDSA. This virtually eliminates
> the encoding size gap between "short Schnorr" and "full-size Schnorr"
> schemes (48 octets vs. 64 octets), essentially by not encoding the public=
 key
> of the signer, since it is recoverable from the signature itself.
>
> The same technique also applies to "full-size Schnorr" (as on the table w=
ith
> CFRG) or any similar signature scheme, provided one does not include the
> signer's public key in the information that is hashed with the signature.=
 In
> those cases, the public key is recoverable from the signature and, e.g.,
> certificate chains can leave out public keys in all-but-one of the certs =
in the
> chain. Leaving out the public key does not have a security impact (in the=
 so-
> called "multi-user setting").
>
> So, there is lots of low-hanging fruit that would allow reducing the enco=
ding
> size of signatures, without possibly weakening the signature scheme itsel=
f.
>
> Details:
>
> If one would not include the public key in the information that is hashed=
 with
> the signature (i.e., follows b) below) and sends the message info separat=
ely
> (i.e., uses "detached content" - Section 4.1.2.1), and uses CSM-style
> encoding, then one gets a signature-size of 66 octets, which one can sque=
eze
> down to 65 octets (compared to 79 octets figure mentioned in Annex E.2).
>
> Thus, one can save 14 octets in the encoding of the header and signature
> compared to what is in the current draft, under a mild condition on the
> signature scheme (which - BTW - holds for ECDSA already, so there is FIPS
> Pub 186-3 precedence here):
>
> Total size: 66 octets (can be squeezed down to 65 octets)
> a) CSM Header Parameters (2 octets [but only 1 octet, if one optimizes th=
is
> for ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr" -- see note below]):
> - ALG (8 bits) --- ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr w/o. truncation";
> - CL (5-bit) -- context identifier length is equal to zero, since public =
key of
> signer can be reconstructed from signature itself'
> - SL (3-bit) -- sequence number length is equal to zero, since replay
> protection is provided by nonce in the message that is signed and not by =
the
> signature itself;
> - CID (0 octets) --- no need, since public key reconstructed from signatu=
re
> itself
> - SEQ (0 octets) -- no need, since freshness is provided by nonce in mess=
age
> and not part of signature scheme security services NOTE RS: in Table 5, t=
he
> CID and SEQ are supposed to be non-empty octet strings. Not sure why this
> is, since context may be defined implicitly if signature scheme allows th=
is.
> Moreover, one can leave out length fields CL and SL if these are uniquely
> derived from signature scheme used. This would result in Optimized CSM
> Header with 1 octet length only.
> b) Signature (64 octets):
> - encoding of Schnorr w/o. truncation @ 256-bit security level
>
> Details on public key reconstruction (w/ ECDSA):
> Context: signature (R,s) over message m, with signer's public key Q;
> verification equation: R=3D(1/s)(eG+rQ), where e=3DH(m), r=3Df(R).
> Input: m, (R,s)
> Output: Q
> -- computation: Q=3D(1/r)(sR-eG), where e=3DH(m), r=3Df(R)
>
>
> --
> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

________________________________
The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally p=
rotected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addre=
ssee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified tha=
t any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is st=
rictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipien=
t, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the=
 original message.


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To: "Kumar, Sandeep" , "ace@ietf.org" 
References: <55D736EC.1050608@gmail.com> <978464083f514d438481fbbd52464e3e@DB5PR9001MB0167.MGDPHG.emi.philips.com>
From: Rene Struik 
Message-ID: <55D743B5.5070001@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:28:53 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Hi Sandeep:

I did not suggest that draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 sends the 
public key along with the message.

The key identifier in the message (CID) serves the purpose of 
identifying the public key of the originator of the signature. As I 
suggested in my email, with ECDSA and various other signature schemes, 
this identifier is not necessary, since the public key of the signer can 
be directly reconstructed from the signature itself. This is independent 
of the particular encoding in the CID (whether the public key itself, a 
hash, or a Subject ID). As you suggested, indeed, signature verification 
would rely on checking whether the reconstructed public key corresponds 
with (a representation of) the public key on file, but that is a 
device-internal check and has no impact on messaging itself.

My email illustrated that there may be much to be gained by looking into 
cleverly encoding strings, while using an existing signature scheme, 
before suggesting "tinkering" with signature schemes themselves.

I hope this helps.

Rene

On 8/21/2015 11:13 AM, Kumar, Sandeep wrote:
> Hi Rene
>
> I am confused...where in the draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 do they mention to send the public key along with the message. The Context Identifier according to my understanding is just an identifier and not the public key itself (see F.1.1 "an identifier indicating which security context was used to integrity protect the message, and may be used as  an identifier for a secret key or a public key.  (It may e.g. be the hash of a public key.). In the case where the public key is implicitly derived fromteh signature,one may need to check against a hash to verify if it's the expected public-key.
>
> The savings on the nonce (SL/SEQ) seem to be artificial by shifting it into the payload.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong.
>
> Regards
> Sandeep
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
>> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 4:34 PM
>> To: ace@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to
>> reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
>>
>> Dear colleagues:
>>
>> I had a brief look at draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 and looked into
>> signature sizes, where the idea would be to look for non-cryptographic fields
>> where one may obtain encoding size savings.
>>
>> It seems that one can shave off 14 octets of context info compared to the
>> currently suggested encoding, when using ECDSA. This virtually eliminates
>> the encoding size gap between "short Schnorr" and "full-size Schnorr"
>> schemes (48 octets vs. 64 octets), essentially by not encoding the public key
>> of the signer, since it is recoverable from the signature itself.
>>
>> The same technique also applies to "full-size Schnorr" (as on the table with
>> CFRG) or any similar signature scheme, provided one does not include the
>> signer's public key in the information that is hashed with the signature. In
>> those cases, the public key is recoverable from the signature and, e.g.,
>> certificate chains can leave out public keys in all-but-one of the certs in the
>> chain. Leaving out the public key does not have a security impact (in the so-
>> called "multi-user setting").
>>
>> So, there is lots of low-hanging fruit that would allow reducing the encoding
>> size of signatures, without possibly weakening the signature scheme itself.
>>
>> Details:
>>
>> If one would not include the public key in the information that is hashed with
>> the signature (i.e., follows b) below) and sends the message info separately
>> (i.e., uses "detached content" - Section 4.1.2.1), and uses CSM-style
>> encoding, then one gets a signature-size of 66 octets, which one can squeeze
>> down to 65 octets (compared to 79 octets figure mentioned in Annex E.2).
>>
>> Thus, one can save 14 octets in the encoding of the header and signature
>> compared to what is in the current draft, under a mild condition on the
>> signature scheme (which - BTW - holds for ECDSA already, so there is FIPS
>> Pub 186-3 precedence here):
>>
>> Total size: 66 octets (can be squeezed down to 65 octets)
>> a) CSM Header Parameters (2 octets [but only 1 octet, if one optimizes this
>> for ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr" -- see note below]):
>> - ALG (8 bits) --- ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr w/o. truncation";
>> - CL (5-bit) -- context identifier length is equal to zero, since public key of
>> signer can be reconstructed from signature itself'
>> - SL (3-bit) -- sequence number length is equal to zero, since replay
>> protection is provided by nonce in the message that is signed and not by the
>> signature itself;
>> - CID (0 octets) --- no need, since public key reconstructed from signature
>> itself
>> - SEQ (0 octets) -- no need, since freshness is provided by nonce in message
>> and not part of signature scheme security services NOTE RS: in Table 5, the
>> CID and SEQ are supposed to be non-empty octet strings. Not sure why this
>> is, since context may be defined implicitly if signature scheme allows this.
>> Moreover, one can leave out length fields CL and SL if these are uniquely
>> derived from signature scheme used. This would result in Optimized CSM
>> Header with 1 octet length only.
>> b) Signature (64 octets):
>> - encoding of Schnorr w/o. truncation @ 256-bit security level
>>
>> Details on public key reconstruction (w/ ECDSA):
>> Context: signature (R,s) over message m, with signer's public key Q;
>> verification equation: R=(1/s)(eG+rQ), where e=H(m), r=f(R).
>> Input: m, (R,s)
>> Output: Q
>> -- computation: Q=(1/r)(sR-eG), where e=H(m), r=f(R)
>>
>>
>> --
>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> ________________________________
> The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


From nobody Fri Aug 21 08:32:13 2015
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From: "Kumar, Sandeep" 
To: Rene Struik , "ace@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:31:49 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Thanks Rene for the clarification, it helps clears my confusion.

Regards
Sandeep

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 5:29 PM
> To: Kumar, Sandeep; ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how
> to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
>
> Hi Sandeep:
>
> I did not suggest that draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 sends the pu=
blic
> key along with the message.
>
> The key identifier in the message (CID) serves the purpose of identifying=
 the
> public key of the originator of the signature. As I suggested in my email=
, with
> ECDSA and various other signature schemes, this identifier is not necessa=
ry,
> since the public key of the signer can be directly reconstructed from the
> signature itself. This is independent of the particular encoding in the C=
ID
> (whether the public key itself, a hash, or a Subject ID). As you suggeste=
d,
> indeed, signature verification would rely on checking whether the
> reconstructed public key corresponds with (a representation of) the publi=
c
> key on file, but that is a device-internal check and has no impact on
> messaging itself.
>
> My email illustrated that there may be much to be gained by looking into
> cleverly encoding strings, while using an existing signature scheme, befo=
re
> suggesting "tinkering" with signature schemes themselves.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Rene
>
> On 8/21/2015 11:13 AM, Kumar, Sandeep wrote:
> > Hi Rene
> >
> > I am confused...where in the draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 do t=
hey
> mention to send the public key along with the message. The Context
> Identifier according to my understanding is just an identifier and not th=
e
> public key itself (see F.1.1 "an identifier indicating which security con=
text was
> used to integrity protect the message, and may be used as  an identifier =
for a
> secret key or a public key.  (It may e.g. be the hash of a public key.). =
In the
> case where the public key is implicitly derived fromteh signature,one may
> need to check against a hash to verify if it's the expected public-key.
> >
> > The savings on the nonce (SL/SEQ) seem to be artificial by shifting it =
into
> the payload.
> >
> > Correct me if I am wrong.
> >
> > Regards
> > Sandeep
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 4:34 PM
> >> To: ace@ietf.org
> >> Subject: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how
> >> to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22%
> >> improvement)
> >>
> >> Dear colleagues:
> >>
> >> I had a brief look at draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 and
> >> looked into signature sizes, where the idea would be to look for
> >> non-cryptographic fields where one may obtain encoding size savings.
> >>
> >> It seems that one can shave off 14 octets of context info compared to
> >> the currently suggested encoding, when using ECDSA. This virtually
> >> eliminates the encoding size gap between "short Schnorr" and "full-siz=
e
> Schnorr"
> >> schemes (48 octets vs. 64 octets), essentially by not encoding the
> >> public key of the signer, since it is recoverable from the signature i=
tself.
> >>
> >> The same technique also applies to "full-size Schnorr" (as on the
> >> table with
> >> CFRG) or any similar signature scheme, provided one does not include
> >> the signer's public key in the information that is hashed with the
> >> signature. In those cases, the public key is recoverable from the
> >> signature and, e.g., certificate chains can leave out public keys in
> >> all-but-one of the certs in the chain. Leaving out the public key
> >> does not have a security impact (in the so- called "multi-user setting=
").
> >>
> >> So, there is lots of low-hanging fruit that would allow reducing the
> >> encoding size of signatures, without possibly weakening the signature
> scheme itself.
> >>
> >> Details:
> >>
> >> If one would not include the public key in the information that is
> >> hashed with the signature (i.e., follows b) below) and sends the
> >> message info separately (i.e., uses "detached content" - Section
> >> 4.1.2.1), and uses CSM-style encoding, then one gets a signature-size
> >> of 66 octets, which one can squeeze down to 65 octets (compared to 79
> octets figure mentioned in Annex E.2).
> >>
> >> Thus, one can save 14 octets in the encoding of the header and
> >> signature compared to what is in the current draft, under a mild
> >> condition on the signature scheme (which - BTW - holds for ECDSA
> >> already, so there is FIPS Pub 186-3 precedence here):
> >>
> >> Total size: 66 octets (can be squeezed down to 65 octets)
> >> a) CSM Header Parameters (2 octets [but only 1 octet, if one
> >> optimizes this for ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr" -- see note below]):
> >> - ALG (8 bits) --- ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr w/o. truncation";
> >> - CL (5-bit) -- context identifier length is equal to zero, since
> >> public key of signer can be reconstructed from signature itself'
> >> - SL (3-bit) -- sequence number length is equal to zero, since replay
> >> protection is provided by nonce in the message that is signed and not
> >> by the signature itself;
> >> - CID (0 octets) --- no need, since public key reconstructed from
> >> signature itself
> >> - SEQ (0 octets) -- no need, since freshness is provided by nonce in
> >> message and not part of signature scheme security services NOTE RS:
> >> in Table 5, the CID and SEQ are supposed to be non-empty octet
> >> strings. Not sure why this is, since context may be defined implicitly=
 if
> signature scheme allows this.
> >> Moreover, one can leave out length fields CL and SL if these are
> >> uniquely derived from signature scheme used. This would result in
> >> Optimized CSM Header with 1 octet length only.
> >> b) Signature (64 octets):
> >> - encoding of Schnorr w/o. truncation @ 256-bit security level
> >>
> >> Details on public key reconstruction (w/ ECDSA):
> >> Context: signature (R,s) over message m, with signer's public key Q;
> >> verification equation: R=3D(1/s)(eG+rQ), where e=3DH(m), r=3Df(R).
> >> Input: m, (R,s)
> >> Output: Q
> >> -- computation: Q=3D(1/r)(sR-eG), where e=3DH(m), r=3Df(R)
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> >> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ace mailing list
> >> Ace@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> > ________________________________
> > The information contained in this message may be confidential and legal=
ly
> protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the
> addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notif=
ied
> that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message =
is
> strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended reci=
pient,
> please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the
> original message.
>
>
> --
> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

________________________________
The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally p=
rotected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addre=
ssee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified tha=
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 11:49:26 +0200
From: Hannes Tschofenig 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: [Ace] Virtual Interim Meeting - September 30th
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Hi all,

as discussed at the last IETF meeting we would like to schedule a
virtual interim meeting (i.e., 2 hour conference call) and our proposal
is to organize this conference call on the 30th of September from  7am
EDT to 9am EDT (which is 1pm CEST to 3pm CEST).

The two hours conference call time will be spent discussing any
remaining issues with the use cases and then also the architecture
document.

Please let us know by the end of this week (30th August) whether this
works for you or, if it does, what other dates are possible for you.

Ciao
Hannes & Kepeng


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Message-ID: <55DC4E02.2030603@sics.se>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:14:10 +0200
From: Ludwig Seitz 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Ace] Virtual Interim Meeting - September 30th
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On 2015-08-25 11:49, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> as discussed at the last IETF meeting we would like to schedule a
> virtual interim meeting (i.e., 2 hour conference call) and our proposal=

> is to organize this conference call on the 30th of September from  7am
> EDT to 9am EDT (which is 1pm CEST to 3pm CEST).
>
> The two hours conference call time will be spent discussing any
> remaining issues with the use cases and then also the architecture
> document.
>
> Please let us know by the end of this week (30th August) whether this
> works for you or, if it does, what other dates are possible for you.

Works fine for me.

/Ludwig


--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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Subject: [Ace] ACE Rechartering
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Hi all,

at the last IETF meeting we discussed the inclusion of the architecture
document into the charter (and into the milestone list) of the ACE
working group. The participants of f2f meeting agreed to the adoption of
the document and the subsequent confirmation call on the mailing list
did not lead to a different conclusion.

Since the architecture document was not part of our charter we have to
update the charter text. You can find three files in the attachment, name=
ly
 1) the current charter text,
 2) the new charter text, and
 3) a diff version (as PDF).

The changes to the current charter text are as follows:

 * editorial changes,
 * added the architecture document,
 * added a note about multicast, and
 * included a remark about application layer security.

Are you OK with the updated charter text?
If not, what other changes you would like to see?

Deadline for feedback: September 6th 2015

Ciao
Hannes & Kepeng

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From nobody Tue Aug 25 05:15:46 2015
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Subject: [Ace] Milestones changed for ace WG
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Changed milestone "Submit "Use cases and Requirements" as a WG item.",
set due date to October 2014 from July 2014, resolved as "Done", added
draft-ietf-ace-usecases to milestone.

Deleted milestone "Submit "Authentication and Authorization Solution"
as a WG item.".

Changed milestone "Optionally, submit "Use cases and Requirements"
document to the IESG for publication as an Informational RFC.", set
due date to September 2015 from April 2015, added
draft-ietf-ace-usecases to milestone.

Changed milestone "Submit "Authentication and Authorization Solution"
specification to the IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard.",
set due date to March 2016 from July 2015.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ace/charter/


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From: Somaraju Abhinav 
To: Hannes Tschofenig , "Ace@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ace] ACE Rechartering
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Rechartering
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That's good for me.


On 08/25/2015 04:00 PM, Somaraju Abhinav wrote:
> Hi Hannes,
> Just one quick point which was raised by somebody (don=E2=80=99t rememb=
er who) at Prague. From my memory it was agreed at the meeting that we wa=
nt to talk about security for group communication and not just multicast =
security. So does it makes sense to change the statement
> "The ability to distribute keys for use with multicast security will al=
so be explored as well as application layer security solutions"
> to
> "The ability to distribute keys for use with secure group communication=
 including multicast security and application layer security solutions"
> Abhinav
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
> Sent: Dienstag, 25. August 2015 13:18
> To: Ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] ACE Rechartering
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> at the last IETF meeting we discussed the inclusion of the architecture=
 document into the charter (and into the milestone list) of the ACE worki=
ng group. The participants of f2f meeting agreed to the adoption of the d=
ocument and the subsequent confirmation call on the mailing list did not =
lead to a different conclusion.
>=20
> Since the architecture document was not part of our charter we have to =
update the charter text. You can find three files in the attachment, name=
ly
>  1) the current charter text,
>  2) the new charter text, and
>  3) a diff version (as PDF).
>=20
> The changes to the current charter text are as follows:
>=20
>  * editorial changes,
>  * added the architecture document,
>  * added a note about multicast, and
>  * included a remark about application layer security.
>=20
> Are you OK with the updated charter text?
> If not, what other changes you would like to see?
>=20
> Deadline for feedback: September 6th 2015
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes & Kepeng
> ________________________________________________________ The contents o=
f this e-mail and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipi=
ent. They may not be disclosed to or used by or copied in any way by anyo=
ne other than the intended recipient. If this e-mail is received in error=
, please immediately notify the sender and delete the e-mail and attached=
 documents. Please note that neither the sender nor the sender's company =
accept any responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to sc=
an or otherwise check this e-mail and any attachments.
>=20


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From nobody Tue Aug 25 07:50:46 2015
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I see that:

+ The ability to distribute keys for use with multicast security will also
+ be explored as well as application

has been added.  Is this need supported by our current use cases?
Given that DICE failed to do this in the general case, is the hope that
we can do it in ACE for some smaller scope?

I have no problems with any of the other changes to the charter.
I am undecided yet on whether multicast security is a good addition.

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Tue Aug 25 09:11:30 2015
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> + The ability to distribute keys for use with multicast security will also
> + be explored as well as application
> 
> has been added.  Is this need supported by our current use cases?
> Given that DICE failed to do this in the general case, 

DICE didn't fail; DICE never tried (the focus was always on the record
protocol, and doing a "multicast handshake" or some such wasn't on the
menu).

Conveying group keys using REST over bilateral security associations is
simple enough that not all of us are sure that this even needs to be
standardized.  Maybe at the level of RFC 7390 (defining a media type).

Grüße, Carsten


From nobody Tue Aug 25 09:36:01 2015
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Abhinav wrote:
    >> "The ability to distribute keys for use with multicast security will
    >> also be explored as well as application layer security solutions"

    >> to

    >> "The ability to distribute keys for use with secure group
    >> communication including multicast security and application layer
    >> security solutions"

That would also make me happier.  It becomes clearer that we aren't trying
to do what DICE couldn't do, but rather enable some application layer keys.

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Tue Aug 25 17:56:52 2015
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Subject: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-actors-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : An architecture for authorization in constrained environments
        Authors         : Stefanie Gerdes
                          Ludwig Seitz
                          Goeran Selander
                          Carsten Bormann
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-actors-00.txt
	Pages           : 30
	Date            : 2015-08-25

Abstract:
   Constrained-node networks are networks where some nodes have severe
   constraints on code size, state memory, processing capabilities, user
   interface, power and communication bandwidth (RFC 7228).

   This document provides terminology, and elements of an architecture /
   a problem statement, for authentication and authorization in these
   networks.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-actors/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-actors-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Wed Aug 26 23:44:57 2015
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From: Ludwig Seitz 
To: ace@ietf.org
References: <55DC4EF1.4080109@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <55DEB1D5.6010704@sics.se>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 08:44:37 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ace] ACE Rechartering
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This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

--------------ms030905080909090404090302
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On 2015-08-25 13:18, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> at the last IETF meeting we discussed the inclusion of the architecture=

> document into the charter (and into the milestone list) of the ACE
> working group. The participants of f2f meeting agreed to the adoption o=
f
> the document and the subsequent confirmation call on the mailing list
> did not lead to a different conclusion.
>
> Since the architecture document was not part of our charter we have to
> update the charter text. You can find three files in the attachment, na=
mely
>   1) the current charter text,
>   2) the new charter text, and
>   3) a diff version (as PDF).
>
> The changes to the current charter text are as follows:
>
>   * editorial changes,
>   * added the architecture document,
>   * added a note about multicast, and
>   * included a remark about application layer security.
>
> Are you OK with the updated charter text?
> If not, what other changes you would like to see?
>

I'm fine with the updated charter text + changing multicast to group=20
communication.

/Ludwig


--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se




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To: ace@ietf.org, Jim Schaad 
References: <002301d0bf36$4af258c0$e0d70a40$@augustcellars.com>
From: Ludwig Seitz 
Message-ID: <55DED559.702@sics.se>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 11:16:09 +0200
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Cc: Stefanie Gerdes 
Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-ietf-ace-usecases
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Hello Jim,

sorry the delay in answering, it was holliday time here in Europe.

Comments inline.


On 2015-07-15 21:41, Jim Schaad wrote:
> Section 2.1 -Is it important that vendors have "real-time" information =
on
> the state of the container or is it sufficient to have post-mortem dump=
s?
> Also is it the vendor or the transporter that needs to have some of thi=
s
> information - since the transporter has a better chance to detect and f=
ix a
> problem in transit that the vendor.

The transporter needs to have access to some real-time information,
in order to be able to prioritize items that are close to expire and to=20
avoid transporting spoiled goods. They also need to know if there is a=20
problem with the refrigeration in real-time. Steffi will be inquiring=20
with her contacts to get more info on this.

The vendor might be happy with post-mortem dumps in many cases, although
I can imagine that real-time information might be useful, e.g. for
supply management, when the vendor wants to replace spoiled or delayed
goods in order to fulfill delivery obligations.

We'll try to condense this into a paragraph to go into 2.1

>
> Section 2.1.1 - para #2 - May need a requirement to revoke authorizatio=
n on
> a sensor which is out of step with other sensors.  I.e. a single sensor=

> which is reading hot when all of the others have a good temperature.
>

We'll add that as a requirement.

> Section 2.1.1 - para ? - You need to talk about the possibility that a =
relay
> station in the neighborhood of the bananas may need to be present.  And=
 that
> relay station may be provided by the transport company (and change over=
 time
> as the transport company changes) rather than the vendor.
>

We'll add a sentence and a corresponding requirement, although we cover
a similar requirement in section 2.5 (U5.8).

> Section 2.1.2 - There is a discussion going on in the COSE group about
> Integrity and if it is possible to have it in the absence of origin of =
data
> information.  I.e. can an anonymous note be integrity protected.  If yo=
u are
> requiring more than just integrity in U1.2 - then you need to make that=

> statement.
>

Asides from knowing that the message was not altered we mainly need to=20
know if the sender was authorized. For this it might be enough that the=20
sender is part of an authorized group, without knowing the exact identity=
=2E

> Section 2.2 - Do you want to add a case of a child and notification to =
Alice
> and Bob when the child arrives home at the end of the school day?
>

Although it would be interesting as a feature, I don't think it adds
some new authentication and authorization requirements to the use case.

> Section 2.2 - Do you want to add a case where an external tech comes in=
 to
> perform maintenance on one or more sections of the house and needs acce=
ss
> both to the logs and potentially to change behaviors of subsystems?   (=
i.e.
> change how the furnace operates after an upgrade).
>

This scenario is alluded to in 2.2 "Such a system needs to accommodate
=2E.. a heterogeneous group of dynamically varying users (visitors,
repairmen, delivery men).".

I don't see what new requirements it would add, since we already have
U2.1, U2.2 and U2.4 which I think cover the scenario above.

> Section 2.3 - s/located physically on the user/located physically on, o=
r in,
> the user./
Fixed

>
> Section 2.3.1 s/and his position/and his location/  Otherwise I think t=
his
> is vertical or prone.

God catch! Fixed.

> Section 2.5 - You need to address the privacy issues implicit in this
> situation.
>

I was hoping that section 4 (Privacy Considerations) would deliver a
blanket coverage of this topic, since it is only indirectly an
authorization problem.

We could add some text about the fact that in the smart metering use=20
case, devices that are not under the control of the inhabitants are=20
placed into their homes, and how this could threaten their privacy. Do=20
you think that would be useful?


Regards,

Ludwig

--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Thread-Topic: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= , "ace@ietf.org" 
References: <55D736EC.1050608@gmail.com> 
From: Rene Struik 
Message-ID: <55DF17B3.7030203@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 09:59:15 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Hi Goran:

Please see brief feedback below.

Best regards, Rene

On 8/27/2015 6:05 AM, Göran Selander wrote:
> Hi Rene
>
> Potential optimizations are always interesting, let’s go through your
> proposals.
>
> On 2015-08-21 16:34, "Rene Struik"  wrote:
>
>> Dear colleagues:
>>
>> I had a brief look at draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 and looked
>> into signature sizes, where the idea would be to look for
>> non-cryptographic fields where one may obtain encoding size savings.
>>
>> It seems that one can shave off 14 octets of context info compared to
>> the currently suggested encoding, when using ECDSA. This virtually
>> eliminates the encoding size gap between "short Schnorr" and "full-size
>> Schnorr" schemes (48 octets vs. 64 octets), essentially by not encoding
>> the public key of the signer, since it is recoverable from the signature
>> itself.
>>
>> The same technique also applies to "full-size Schnorr" (as on the table
>> with CFRG) or any similar signature scheme, provided one does not
>> include the signer's public key in the information that is hashed with
>> the signature. In those cases, the public key is recoverable from the
>> signature and, e.g., certificate chains can leave out public keys in
>> all-but-one of the certs in the chain. Leaving out the public key does
>> not have a security impact (in the so-called "multi-user setting").
>>
>> So, there is lots of low-hanging fruit that would allow reducing the
>> encoding size of signatures, without possibly weakening the signature
>> scheme itself.
>>
>> Details:
>>
>> If one would not include the public key in the information that is
>> hashed with the signature (i.e., follows b) below) and sends the message
>> info separately (i.e., uses "detached content" - Section 4.1.2.1), and
>> uses CSM-style encoding, then one gets a signature-size of 66 octets,
>> which one can squeeze down to 65 octets (compared to 79 octets figure
>> mentioned in Annex E.2).
> The CSM header in the current draft contains essentially Algorithm (ALG),
> Context Identifier (CID) and Sequence Number (SEQ). ALG is assumed to be
> an 1 byte encoding of the cipher suite, the two latter are of variable
> length defined by the application: CID: 1-32 bytes, SEQ: 1-8 bytes. To
> allow parsing of this variable length header there are length indications
> of these fields which consume in total 1 byte. The minimum CSM header is
> thus 4 bytes, so with 64 bytes signature the minimum total security
> overhead with the current CSM format is 68 bytes.
>
> The "79 octets" you refer to in Annex E.2, do you mean "77 octets” i.e.
> the last entry in Table 7?
>
> Note that the numbers in Annex E are based on the assumption of an 8-byte
> CID and a 3-byte SEQ, i.e. a 13 byte header, not the minimum 4 byte header.
RS>> If I understand correctly, this means that the header has 13=8+3+2 
octets, in which case one indeed comes to 77 octets (if signature is 64 
octets).
If one elides the SEQ and CID entries and only uses the 1-octet ALG 
field, one can squeeze this into 65=64+1 octets. If one feels one needs 
a hint for SEQ (3 octets), this would become 68 octets.
In the first case, one gains 12 octets compared to what is in the draft; 
in the latter case, this becomes 9 octets, *without* having to touch the 
signature scheme itself.
<
>> Thus, one can save 14 octets in the encoding of the header and signature
>> compared to what is in the current draft,
>> under a mild condition on the
>> signature scheme (which - BTW - holds for ECDSA already, so there is
>> FIPS Pub 186-3 precedence here):
>>
>> Total size: 66 octets (can be squeezed down to 65 octets)
>> a) CSM Header Parameters (2 octets [but only 1 octet, if one optimizes
>> this for ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr" -- see note below]):
>> - ALG (8 bits) --- ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr w/o. truncation";
> If you assume that ALG should encode whether a particular algorithm has
> explicit or implicit context identifier and different types of replay
> protection, you may need more than 8 bits.
RS>> I would be surprised if one would need more than 256 options for 
ALG. With ECDSA (or other signature scheme that does not hash the public 
key of the signer along), one can automatically elide any fields eluding 
to which public key is used, so does not need to introduce any options 
(# options=1).
<
>> - CL (5-bit) -- context identifier length is equal to zero, since public
>> key of signer can be reconstructed from signature itself'
> So some bit here may be moved from this into ALG.
>
>> - SL (3-bit) -- sequence number length is equal to zero, since replay
>> protection is provided by nonce in the message that is signed and not by
>> the signature itself;
> See below.
>
>
>> - CID (0 octets) --- no need, since public key reconstructed from
>> signature itself
> I agree the minimum CID could be 0 bytes instead of currently 1 byte.
>
>
> Since there are applications where more than one key is in use, just
> allowing a simple enumeration indicating which of the candidate keys could
> be useful instead of always having to calculate the public key.
RS>> I would be curious about an example here. (Of course, there are 
trade-offs between signature encoding size and computation details: this 
was the entire point of my email.)
<
>
>> - SEQ (0 octets) -- no need, since freshness is provided by nonce in
>> message and not part of signature scheme security services
> I’m missing something in the reasoning here and in SL above.
>
> - One interpretation is using the random part of the ECDSA signature - r,
> are you considering to use that for replay protection?
>
> - Another interpretation is that you assume that a nonce is added to the
> message which is going to be signed. In that case I don’t see how bytes
> are saved in transmission.
>
> Irrespective of how the nonce is transported, storing and verifying
> against a large numbers of nonces seems less optimal than sequence numbers
> for very constrained devices. How many nonces would you recommend to cache?
>
> If we want to support both nonces and sequence numbers as candidate means
> for replay protection we also need to encode which of these are being used
> in addition to how large they are. Alternatively we build that encoding
> into the algorithm, but then we need to expand the ALG field.
RS>> The signature scheme usually only provides for non repudiation, not 
for replay protection. If one uses encryption+signing or signing, one 
can often compress the nonce in sent messages, e.g., when (a) the 
recipient more or less knows this (example 1: nonce related to time 
attribute (6tisch case); example 2: reconstructable from stored nonce 
value for sender and compressed nonce); (b)  the signature has a 
challenge response element to it (example: use of signatures in any 
challenge response protocol, including authenticated key agreement (TLS, 
etc.)).
<
>> NOTE RS: in Table 5, the CID and SEQ are supposed to be non-empty octet
>> strings. Not sure why this is, since context may be defined implicitly
>> if signature scheme allows this. Moreover, one can leave out length
>> fields CL and SL if these are uniquely derived from signature scheme
>> used. This would result in Optimized CSM Header with 1 octet length only.
>> b) Signature (64 octets):
>> - encoding of Schnorr w/o. truncation @ 256-bit security level
>>
>> Details on public key reconstruction (w/ ECDSA):
>> Context: signature (R,s) over message m, with signer's public key Q;
>> verification equation: R=(1/s)(eG+rQ), where e=H(m), r=f(R).
>> Input: m, (R,s)
>> Output: Q
>> -- computation: Q=(1/r)(sR-eG), where e=H(m), r=f(R)
>
> I agree calculating candidate public keys from signed message may be
> useful in certain applications and may reduce the need to send a long
> context identifier. But this computation also has a cost and would add to
> the processing overhead if done each time.
RS>>
The computational cost of signature verification (with ECDSA example) is
(a) with public key reconstruction: compute Q:=(1/r)(eG-sR) and compare 
with representation of stored value;
(b) without public key reconstruction: find Q; compute R:=(1/s)(eG+rQ) 
and check that R corresponds with r.
Thus, the computational cost of (a) is roughly the same as with (b), 
whereas the communication cost of (b) may be higher {since one needs to 
know which Q to use for verification}.
<
>
>
> Summary:
>
> Good point: If the signature algorithm allows calculating a public key
> from signed message that could be used in trading message size with
> computational effort. The current CSM format supports a minimum 1 byte
> context/key identifiers. You propose that should be 0 bytes and I agree
> that could be allowed as an option. With that change to current CSM the
> minimum overhead would reduce from 68 to 67 bytes, compared to your
> proposed 65 bytes.
>
> You propose to replace sequence numbers in the current CSM format with
> nonces. I'm not convinced that nonces are feasible for replay protection
> in constrained devices in general. For applications where devices can
> search through a large cache of nonces, and provided we can reuse nonces
> that are already included somehow I can see a potential gain here of the
> order of a few bytes on average. Note that for sequence numbers we only
> need to send the significant part, we can remove initial zeros. If we
> should support multiple replay protection mechanisms that also needs to be
> encoded and adds some complexity to handle.
>
> Finally, the current assumption is that the message format we should use
> is COSE, for which CSM is just a benchmark, so a similar analysis of COSE
> would make even more sense. I think that many of the optimizations you
> propose to CSM risk being "lost in translation” to COSE.
RS>>
Perhaps. My note was aimed at stimulating looking for "smart" ways to 
reduce communication overhead, while being able to reuse existing 
signature schemes (which I have not seen before - all spec text assumes 
amorphous blobs and discards structure one may be able to exploit).
<
>
> Regards
> Göran
>
>
>
>
>>
>> -- 
>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: Rene Struik 
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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Hi Goran:

On 8/27/2015 6:24 AM, Göran Selander wrote:
> Hi Rene
>
> On 2015-08-21 17:28, "Rene Struik"  wrote:
>
>> Hi Sandeep:
>>
>> I did not suggest that draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 sends the
>> public key along with the message.
>>
>> The key identifier in the message (CID) serves the purpose of
>> identifying the public key of the originator of the signature. As I
>> suggested in my email, with ECDSA and various other signature schemes,
>> this identifier is not necessary, since the public key of the signer can
>> be directly reconstructed from the signature itself. This is independent
>> of the particular encoding in the CID (whether the public key itself, a
>> hash, or a Subject ID). As you suggested, indeed, signature verification
>> would rely on checking whether the reconstructed public key corresponds
>> with (a representation of) the public key on file, but that is a
>> device-internal check and has no impact on messaging itself.
>>
>> My email illustrated that there may be much to be gained by looking into
>> cleverly encoding strings, while using an existing signature scheme,
>> before suggesting "tinkering" with signature schemes themselves.
> Out of the three proposals for reducing signature size suggested by people
> to CFRG, I wouldn’t call any of those “tinkering”.
RS>> My email to the ACE list did not refer to CFRG efforts: it 
illustrated how one could do some smart encodings using existing schemes 
(using ECDSA, which is FIPS Pub 186-2), without having to tinker with 
signature schemes. As an aside, there is some concern that "short" 
Schnorr schemes would have security pitfalls. With BSI's Schnorr scheme, 
the hash function is *not* allowed to be truncated below the curve size. 
Personally, I speculate it would be possible to safely reduce the 
signature size a little bit, but not much (1 3/4 times the curve size, 
vs. 2 times, i.e., saving of 8 octets: 56 octets vs. 64 octets), which 
may not be worth the hassle and within the realm of cost-cutting in the 
external overhead (as my email was about).
<
> I agree that much can be done in terms of optimizing encoding, but when it
> comes to whether say 64/70 = 91% or 64/65 = 98% of the security overhead
> consists of signature (which is what we discussed in the previous mail),
> then there is clearly an impact if we can reduce the signature size with
> 25%. So I think it is good news that the CFRG chairs endorse further
> investigations on this.
RS>> I am not sure whether those numbers are correct (in my previous 
email I came to 12 octets or 9 octets compared to what you had in that 
draft. This aside, of course, ideally one would like to have zero octet 
signature size overhead (one always wants less). However, there are 
technical limitations of what can be achieved. Minimum possible might be 
32 octets signature overhead, if using ECPVS and if message has 
sufficient redundancy (but this requires educated users of the scheme 
to, indeed, ensure that this redundancy is actually there [which I am 
not hopeful they will do -- too much moral hazard]). That scheme does 
require overhead to indicate the public key of the signer, though, so 
part of the size gain is lost in the context of its use.
<
> Regards
> Göran
>
>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> Rene
>>
>> On 8/21/2015 11:13 AM, Kumar, Sandeep wrote:
>>> Hi Rene
>>>
>>> I am confused...where in the draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 do
>>> they mention to send the public key along with the message. The Context
>>> Identifier according to my understanding is just an identifier and not
>>> the public key itself (see F.1.1 "an identifier indicating which
>>> security context was used to integrity protect the message, and may be
>>> used as  an identifier for a secret key or a public key.  (It may e.g.
>>> be the hash of a public key.). In the case where the public key is
>>> implicitly derived fromteh signature,one may need to check against a
>>> hash to verify if it's the expected public-key.
>>>
>>> The savings on the nonce (SL/SEQ) seem to be artificial by shifting it
>>> into the payload.
>>>
>>> Correct me if I am wrong.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Sandeep
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 4:34 PM
>>>> To: ace@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how
>>>> to
>>>> reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
>>>>
>>>> Dear colleagues:
>>>>
>>>> I had a brief look at draft-selander-ace-object-security-02 and looked
>>>> into
>>>> signature sizes, where the idea would be to look for non-cryptographic
>>>> fields
>>>> where one may obtain encoding size savings.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that one can shave off 14 octets of context info compared to
>>>> the
>>>> currently suggested encoding, when using ECDSA. This virtually
>>>> eliminates
>>>> the encoding size gap between "short Schnorr" and "full-size Schnorr"
>>>> schemes (48 octets vs. 64 octets), essentially by not encoding the
>>>> public key
>>>> of the signer, since it is recoverable from the signature itself.
>>>>
>>>> The same technique also applies to "full-size Schnorr" (as on the
>>>> table with
>>>> CFRG) or any similar signature scheme, provided one does not include
>>>> the
>>>> signer's public key in the information that is hashed with the
>>>> signature. In
>>>> those cases, the public key is recoverable from the signature and,
>>>> e.g.,
>>>> certificate chains can leave out public keys in all-but-one of the
>>>> certs in the
>>>> chain. Leaving out the public key does not have a security impact (in
>>>> the so-
>>>> called "multi-user setting").
>>>>
>>>> So, there is lots of low-hanging fruit that would allow reducing the
>>>> encoding
>>>> size of signatures, without possibly weakening the signature scheme
>>>> itself.
>>>>
>>>> Details:
>>>>
>>>> If one would not include the public key in the information that is
>>>> hashed with
>>>> the signature (i.e., follows b) below) and sends the message info
>>>> separately
>>>> (i.e., uses "detached content" - Section 4.1.2.1), and uses CSM-style
>>>> encoding, then one gets a signature-size of 66 octets, which one can
>>>> squeeze
>>>> down to 65 octets (compared to 79 octets figure mentioned in Annex
>>>> E.2).
>>>>
>>>> Thus, one can save 14 octets in the encoding of the header and
>>>> signature
>>>> compared to what is in the current draft, under a mild condition on the
>>>> signature scheme (which - BTW - holds for ECDSA already, so there is
>>>> FIPS
>>>> Pub 186-3 precedence here):
>>>>
>>>> Total size: 66 octets (can be squeezed down to 65 octets)
>>>> a) CSM Header Parameters (2 octets [but only 1 octet, if one optimizes
>>>> this
>>>> for ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr" -- see note below]):
>>>> - ALG (8 bits) --- ECDSA or, e.g., "Schnorr w/o. truncation";
>>>> - CL (5-bit) -- context identifier length is equal to zero, since
>>>> public key of
>>>> signer can be reconstructed from signature itself'
>>>> - SL (3-bit) -- sequence number length is equal to zero, since replay
>>>> protection is provided by nonce in the message that is signed and not
>>>> by the
>>>> signature itself;
>>>> - CID (0 octets) --- no need, since public key reconstructed from
>>>> signature
>>>> itself
>>>> - SEQ (0 octets) -- no need, since freshness is provided by nonce in
>>>> message
>>>> and not part of signature scheme security services NOTE RS: in Table
>>>> 5, the
>>>> CID and SEQ are supposed to be non-empty octet strings. Not sure why
>>>> this
>>>> is, since context may be defined implicitly if signature scheme allows
>>>> this.
>>>> Moreover, one can leave out length fields CL and SL if these are
>>>> uniquely
>>>> derived from signature scheme used. This would result in Optimized CSM
>>>> Header with 1 octet length only.
>>>> b) Signature (64 octets):
>>>> - encoding of Schnorr w/o. truncation @ 256-bit security level
>>>>
>>>> Details on public key reconstruction (w/ ECDSA):
>>>> Context: signature (R,s) over message m, with signer's public key Q;
>>>> verification equation: R=(1/s)(eG+rQ), where e=H(m), r=f(R).
>>>> Input: m, (R,s)
>>>> Output: Q
>>>> -- computation: Q=(1/r)(sR-eG), where e=H(m), r=f(R)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ace mailing list
>>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>> ________________________________
>>> The information contained in this message may be confidential and
>>> legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely
>>> for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are
>>> hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction
>>> of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are
>>> not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail
>>> and destroy all copies of the original message.
>>
>> -- 
>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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Thread-Topic: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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From: "Kumar, Sandeep" 
To: Rene Struik , =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "ace@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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To: "Kumar, Sandeep" , Rene Struik , "ace@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= , "Kumar, Sandeep" , "ace@ietf.org" 
References: <55D736EC.1050608@gmail.com>  <55DF17B3.7030203@gmail.com>  
From: Rene Struik 
Message-ID: <55E069D4.5060803@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:01:56 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ace] feedback on draft-selander-ace-object-security-02: how to reduce signature encoding size by almost 16 octets (22% improvement)
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Hi Goran/Sandeep:

Obviously, one should not skip the check as to whether the reconstructed 
public key corresponds to the (representation of the) public key. This 
policy check is device-internal, though, and can indeed be realized via 
comparing a compressed image of the public key (hash or perhaps even 
16-octet locally stored value).

As already said, this is one technique one could use to potentially 
economize on context information (by using the mathematical structure of 
the signature itself). As said in my original email on this, this can 
also be used to elide public keys in certificates in a certificate 
chain, since each of these can be reconstructed and put back in their 
"original spot" (if certificate verification is done in a serial fashion).

Best regards, Rene

On 8/28/2015 4:17 AM, Göran Selander wrote:
> Hi Sandeep,
>
> If you for some reason can easily provision (out of band or by other
> trusted delivery) hash of a public key but not public key itself, then
> recovering the public key through the first signed message is an
> optimization.
>
> If everything else stays the same (security, computational cost, etc.) I
> suppose you could use (a) by default.
>
> Regards
> Göran
>
>
>
> On 2015-08-28 09:35, "Kumar, Sandeep"  wrote:
>
>> Hi Rene
>>
>> Not trying to pick on individual points but I find the below argument
>> incorrect
>>
>>> RS>>
>>> The computational cost of signature verification (with ECDSA example) is
>>> (a) with public key reconstruction: compute Q:=(1/r)(eG-sR) and compare
>>> with representation of stored value;
>>> (b) without public key reconstruction: find Q; compute R:=(1/s)(eG+rQ)
>>> and
>>> check that R corresponds with r.
>>> Thus, the computational cost of (a) is roughly the same as with (b),
>>> whereas
>>> the communication cost of (b) may be higher {since one needs to know
>>> which Q to use for verification}.
>>> <> [SK>]If you believe that in case (b) you need to have a context to
>> identify which Q to use for verification, you similarly need the context
>> in case (a) to verify if the computed Q should be relevant for the
>> particular use of the message. I do not see how otherwise you would
>> manage in a device with multiple Q's (or hashes of Q's).
>>
>> On a general point,  one would be doomed if they trust a raw public key
>> with the message that was also used to sign the message. So there is no
>> point sending the public key in the message. Only way is to send
>> (implicit) certificates or out-of-band provisioning of the public keys.
>>
>> Regards
>> Sandeep
>>
>> ________________________________
>> The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally
>> protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the
>> addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
>> notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this
>> message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the
>> intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and
>> destroy all copies of the original message.


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: "Cuellar, Jorge" 
To: "goran.selander@ericsson.com" , "core@ietf.org" , "ace@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: COSE requirements from CORE/ACE
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To: "Cuellar, Jorge" , "core@ietf.org" , "ace@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: COSE requirements from CORE/ACE
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