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To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Rafa Marin Lopez <rafa@um.es>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] My comments about draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/0gOitstc8iF1_aUnnTx3xDQq2pw>
Subject: Re: [Ace] My comments about draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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From: Rafa Marin Lopez <rafa@um.es>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] My comments about  draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Hi Erik,

Thanks for your clarifications. See my comments inline:


> El 31 oct 2015, a las 12:25, Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus =
<erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com> escribi=F3:
>=20
> Thanks for the review. It's very valuable.
>=20
> See comments below.
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On 30 Oct 2015, at 14:46, Rafa Marin Lopez <rafa@um.es> wrote:
>=20
>> Dear authors, all:
>>=20
>> Here you can find my review about draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00.
>>=20
>> The document is very detailed, which helps to understand the =
proposal. In my opinion, using a well-known protocol such as OAuth 2.0 =
where many people are working and have worked gives maturity and makes =
comprehensible the proposal to a broader audience. I also think it would =
be good to have some performance data (if available) such as message =
size, processing time , etc=85 . In any case, I believe the usage of =
OAuth 2.0 is a right and reasonable path for achieving an ACE solution.
>=20
> Yes. I also thinks that would be valuable and we should add that going =
forward.
>=20
>>=20
>> Here some more detail comments/questions:
>>=20
>> In page 3:
>>=20
>> "This memo describes how to re-use OAuth 2.0 [RFC6749] to extend
>>   authorization to Internet of Things devices with different kinds of
>>   constrainedness.  At the time of writing OAuth 2.0 is already used
>>   with certain types of IoT devices and this document will =
provide..."
>>=20
>> [Rafa]  What types of IoT devices already use OAuth 2.0? A reference =
with this usage of OAuth 2.0 would be helpful.
>=20
> I personally have been working on two but can't show them yet. Hope to =
be able to show more in 2 weeks. You could also argue for that the API =
economy is also good examples where machines talks to machines where I =
would say that oauth2 have become the standard way to protect the =
communication.

[Rafa] Let=92s wait for two weeks then. No problem!
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> "Figure 1: Overview of the basic protocol flow
>>=20
>>   Requesting an Access Token (A):=94
>>=20
>> [Rafa] Is there any assumption for the client authentication here?
>=20
> Vanilla Oauth2 supports many types of grant flows. The draft uses =
client credentials (could be pre provisioned either manually or using =
something like dynamic client registration specs from oauth wg). There =
is no reason for not using other types of credentials for authentication =
against the AS.


[Rafa] Yes, I am aware you=92re using client credentials. I was =
wondering if it would be useful to mention what choices could be =
considered as client authentication.

>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> "The /token resource (called "endpoint" in OAuth 2.0), defined in
>>   Section 3.2 of [RFC6749], is used by the client to obtain an access
>>   token.  Requests sent to the /token resource use the HTTP POST =
method=85"
>>=20
>> [Rafa] Mmmmm=85 if client is constrained =85 will it use HTTP POST?=20=

>=20
> No. It's just bad wordings. Good catch. If the client would not be =
constrained then http post would do, but otherwise there are coap =
examples of it in Figure 2.
>=20
>>=20
>> =936.1 Client and Resource Server are Offline"
>>=20
>> [Rafa] I realize that offline is sometimes confusing. client and =
resource server can communicate each other. The AS is offline since it =
is not reachable. But anyway, this is a minor thing.
>=20
> Yes I see the point. We tried our a couple of namings of the examples =
of different deployment models using the oauth framework but I guess it =
still can be worked on a bit more.
>=20
>>=20
>> "A: The client first generates a public-private key pair used for
>>      communication security with the RS."
>>=20
>> [Rafa] In the same section 6.1, you describe the case where client =
and resource server cannot contact the AS. However you describe the =
communication with the AS. This might result confusing is shown. Perhaps =
the interaction with the AS should be placed out of this section.
>=20
> We state in the intro text that it's done priori of the real access =
requests. It's still a mandatory step to initialize C and RS.
>=20
> "This access procedure involves
> steps A, B, C, and F of Figure 1, but assumes that step A and B have =
been carried out during a phase when the client had connectivity to AS.=94=


[Rafa] Yes I noticed that but my point is that the interaction between C =
and AS could be placed out of the that section. In 6.1 you could just =
mention that C already has the access token.

>=20
>=20
> That could be done in factory, installation or one minute or a lot of =
years before depending on the scenario.
>=20
>>=20
>> Page 16
>>=20
>> "Figure 5: Access Token including Public Key of the Client.
>>=20
>>   Messages C and F are shown in Figure 6 - Figure 7.
>>=20
>>      C: The client then sends the PoP token to the /authz-info =
resource
>>      at the RS.  This is a plain CoAP request, i.e. no DTLS/OSCOAP
>>      between client and RS, since the token is integrity protected
>>      between AS and RS." =20
>>=20
>> [Rafa] I think I am missing something here. A PoP token proves that =
the client knows a key (key confirmation). But the reason you give for =
not using DTLS/OSCOAP is that the token is integrity protected AS and =
RS. The client should prove that it owns the key anyway, no?
>=20
> That's done later when the real GET request is sent. In the first =
request the access token is sent to the RS. The token is, as stated, =
integrity protected by the AS and then verified and stored by the RS. In =
the later get request the pop key is used by the client to prove to the =
RS that the client really have access to the key.

[Rafa] Fig. 7  with the DTLS negotiation, right?

>=20
>>=20
>> "The RS verifies that the PoP token was created
>>      by a known and trusted AS, is valid, and responds to the client.
>>      The RS caches the security context together with authorization
>>      information about this client contained in the PoP token."
>>=20
>> [Rafa] This is related to my previous comment. Is it possible for an =
attacker to reply the PoP token? It should not due to PoP token nature =
but nothing is mentioned about it, just the verification that it was =
created by a trusted AS. Maybe my understanding of PoP token is wrong.=20=

>=20
> The token could include a "cti" claim defined in appendix D that talks =
about cbor web tokens (CWT). That could be used to prevent replays but =
there are also features in the object security drafts for he same. We =
should add more details about replays in the security considerations =
section.

[Rafa] Yes that would be good.=20

>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> "6.3.  Token Introspection with an Offline Client"
>>=20
>> [Rafa] Although token introspection may be an interesting feature, I =
am thinking that sending additional messages from the RS to the AS is =
not good when RS is constrained. I understand it is a tradeoff between =
=93authorization freshness=94 vs additional signaling.=20
>=20
> Yes. There will be different needs for different deployments.
>=20
>>=20
>> Page 25: "In case 2., the RS does not need to receive any message =
from the
>>   client,"=20
>>=20
>> [Rafa] I do not understand why the RS does not need to receive any =
message from the client=85 could you clarify?
>>=20
> "Messages" is actually tokens in this scenario.

[Rafa] Oh I see.

Thanks!
>=20
>> Hope this helps.
>=20
> It did. Thanks!
>=20
> / Erik
>=20
>>=20
>> Best Regards.
>>=20
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
>> Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
>> Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
>> 30100 Murcia - Spain
>> Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

-------------------------------------------------------
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
30100 Murcia - Spain
Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
-------------------------------------------------------





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Subject: Re: [Ace] My comments about draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Hi Hannes:

> El 31 oct 2015, a las 13:03, Hannes Tschofenig =
<hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> escribi=C3=B3:
>=20
> Hi Rafa,
>=20
> thanks for you review. Since you have contributed the EAP-based =
solution
> to the group I was obviously very interested to hear your opinion.

[Rafa] Thank for your answer. I think EAP-based solution can be used as =
bootstrapping and as a choice of client authentication with the AS to =
bootstrap security between both entities. =46rom that point , an ACE =
solution as the one based on OAuth 2.0 will happen.

See my comments inline

>=20
> Responses inline:
>=20
> On 10/30/2015 02:46 PM, Rafa Marin Lopez wrote:
>> Dear authors, all:
>>=20
>> Here you can find my review about draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00.
>>=20
>> The document is very detailed, which helps to understand the
>> proposal. In my opinion, using a well-known protocol such as OAuth
>> 2.0 where many people are working and have worked gives maturity and
>> makes comprehensible the proposal to a broader audience. I also think
>> it would be good to have some performance data (if available) such as
>> message size, processing time , etc=E2=80=A6 . In any case, I believe =
the
>> usage of OAuth 2.0 is a right and reasonable path for achieving an
>> ACE solution.
>=20
> Thanks for the positive feedback.
>=20
> Regarding the performance data we can put some figures together based =
on
> what we have been playing with. In fact, we (Erik/Samuel from Nexus
> Technology and ARM) are going to show a demo of OAuth for a home
> automation scenario at the upcoming ARM TechCon event. Forgerock will
> also show OAuth-based scenarios at the same event.

[Rafa] It is fine. I will looking forward to seeing those results.

>=20
> What is difficult with the performance data is that it depends a bit =
on
> the assumptions made for the scenario. For example, in our case we are
> using Bluetooth Smart with a custom BLE service for the communication
> between an Android phone and an IoT device. The custom BLE service =
uses
> JOSE, which is quite naturally more heavy than the COSE solution
> currently being developed. While we didn't see problems with the JOSE
> solution so far we could replace it with COSE reducing the number of
> bits on the wire. For the data exchanged between the phone and the
> authorization server it again depends what user experience is offered
> and what authentication mechanism is utilized.
>=20
> In a nutshell, there is more than just counting bits on the wire =
there.

[Rafa] That=E2=80=99s for sure. But having some preliminary is always =
useful to have an initial approximation.=20

>=20
>>=20
>> Here some more detail comments/questions:
>>=20
>> In page 3:
>>=20
>> "This memo describes how to re-use OAuth 2.0 [RFC6749] to extend=20
>> authorization to Internet of Things devices with different kinds of=20=

>> constrainedness.  At the time of writing OAuth 2.0 is already used=20
>> with certain types of IoT devices and this document will provide..."
>>=20
>> [Rafa]  What types of IoT devices already use OAuth 2.0? A reference
>> with this usage of OAuth 2.0 would be helpful.
>>=20
>=20
> There are a number of different communication scenarios, as outlined =
in
> the recent ISOC publication:
> =
http://www.internetsociety.org/sites/default/files/ISOC-IoT-Overview-20151=
022.pdf
>=20
> For the "Back-End Data-Sharing Model", described on page 16, OAuth is
> used quite frequently. This is also pretty reasonable since many
> companies seek to share data they collect from IoT devices (with the
> permission of the user). Here is an example from the vehicle =
environment:
> https://developer.carvoyant.com/io-docs
>=20
> I have shared other examples from the fitness / wearable sector =
previously.
>=20
> Also for devices that have a user interface but limited input
> capabilities OAuth has been used. Here are two examples:
> https://developers.facebook.com/docs/facebook-login/for-devices
> https://developers.google.com/youtube/v3/guides/auth/devices
>=20
> This "Device-to-Cloud Communications" scenario is described on page 14
> in the ISOC paper.
>=20
> In general, in terms of deployment it is more common for IoT devices =
to
> communicate with some gateway or a cloud-based service rather than
> having IoT devices communicate directly with each other.

[Rafa]  Thanks for the pointer. Maybe it is worthy including this =
reference. =20

>=20
>>=20
>> "Figure 1: Overview of the basic protocol flow
>>=20
>> Requesting an Access Token (A):=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> [Rafa] Is there any assumption for the client authentication here?
>=20
> Yes, the client has to be authenticated prior to get an access token.
> There is also the consent aspect here, which may require =
authentication
> of a human.
>=20
> The client credentials are provisioned to the device either upfront =
(for
> example during manufacturing) or the client is registered dynamically
> (which is what we have the dynamic client registration for).
>=20
> When we wrote the UMA for IoT document there we also had spoke about =
the
> need to consider cases where the consent comes up-front. For this
> document we didn't want to go into that level of detail since these
> scenarios are a bit more sophisticated and we already have this other
> document available.
>=20
> For this write-up we have taken the approach that the reader knows =
very
> little about the OAuth landscape.

[Rafa] I see. Nevertheless, I think this should be clarified this aspect =
in some point in the evolution of the I-D.

>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> "The /token resource (called "endpoint" in OAuth 2.0), defined in=20
>> Section 3.2 of [RFC6749], is used by the client to obtain an access=20=

>> token.  Requests sent to the /token resource use the HTTP POST
>> method=E2=80=A6"
>>=20
>> [Rafa] Mmmmm=E2=80=A6 if client is constrained =E2=80=A6 will it use =
HTTP POST?
>=20
> In this document we offer the choice to either use HTTP or CoAP.
> We are exploring the use of HTTP/2 and QUIC.
>=20
> But keep in mind that in most scenarios not everything is constrained.
> For example, you might have a person in a smart home using his phone =
or
> table to control lights and other devices. Their phone can very well =
use
> HTTP without any problems.

[Rafa]  Yes I know that but the text seems limiting the case to not =
constrained case. That is why I mentioned it.

>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> =E2=80=9C6.1 Client and Resource Server are Offline"
>>=20
>> [Rafa] I realize that offline is sometimes confusing. client and
>> resource server can communicate each other. The AS is offline since
>> it is not reachable. But anyway, this is a minor thing.
>=20
> That's a good point, which we may need to describe a bit more.
> With the requirements outlined in our group it is obviously not =
possible
> to have a scenario where everything is fully offline and we wouldn't
> really be talking about IoT then anyway (but rather about embedded
> devices).
>=20
> Here the distinction is whether the resource server is able to contact
> the authorization server at the time of the resource request. The =
client
> still has to be able to obtain the access token at some point in time.
> There is, of course, also a tradeoff between the ability to revoke
> granted permissions in real-time vs. being offline.

[Rafa] My point is that in 6.1 it is assumed precisely that at some =
point in the past the client already got an access token but when using =
the access token the AS is offline for both the client and the resource =
server.

>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> "A: The client first generates a public-private key pair used for=20
>> communication security with the RS."
>>=20
>> [Rafa] In the same section 6.1, you describe the case where client
>> and resource server cannot contact the AS. However you describe the
>> communication with the AS. This might result confusing is shown.
>> Perhaps the interaction with the AS should be placed out of this
>> section.
>=20
> I guess this is the same issue as with the previous comment. I believe
> we need to describe more clearly what we mean by offline. I think the
> qualification "offline during the time of the resource access" might
> describe it better.

[Rafa] What I suggested that in the interaction of the AS should be =
placed out of this section.
>=20
>>=20
>> Page 16
>>=20
>> "Figure 5: Access Token including Public Key of the Client.
>>=20
>> Messages C and F are shown in Figure 6 - Figure 7.
>>=20
>> C: The client then sends the PoP token to the /authz-info resource at
>> the RS.  This is a plain CoAP request, i.e. no DTLS/OSCOAP between
>> client and RS, since the token is integrity protected between AS and
>> RS."
>>=20
>> [Rafa] I think I am missing something here. A PoP token proves that
>> the client knows a key (key confirmation). But the reason you give
>> for not using DTLS/OSCOAP is that the token is integrity protected AS
>> and RS. The client should prove that it owns the key anyway, no?
>>=20
>> "The RS verifies that the PoP token was created by a known and
>> trusted AS, is valid, and responds to the client. The RS caches the
>> security context together with authorization information about this
>> client contained in the PoP token."
>>=20
>> [Rafa] This is related to my previous comment. Is it possible for an
>> attacker to reply the PoP token? It should not due to PoP token
>> nature but nothing is mentioned about it, just the verification that
>> it was created by a trusted AS. Maybe my understanding of PoP token
>> is wrong.
>>=20
>=20
> This is a very good comment since I had to fight with this issue as
> well. Here is the issue. If you look at the way how things work in =
HTTP
> then you would include the token with the (initial) resource request.
>=20
> We ideally want to have the same pattern also in CoAP and CoAP is
> supposed to be designed like HTTP. However, as it turns out there are
> some issues in terms of size limitations. Hence, it may be necessary =
to
> send the token to a special authorization endpoint first before making
> the resource request. While I do not quite like that design I believe =
it
> is a side-effect of the CoAP design.

[Rafa] So the PoP token is first presented without client authentication =
because it may not fit in the resource request, correct? According to =
Goran=E2=80=99s comment key confirmation happens, for example, during =
the establishment of the DTLS connection just after sending the PoP =
token (Fig. 7). Am I right?

Thanks!

>=20
>>=20
>> "6.3.  Token Introspection with an Offline Client"
>>=20
>> [Rafa] Although token introspection may be an interesting feature, I
>> am thinking that sending additional messages from the RS to the AS is
>> not good when RS is constrained. I understand it is a tradeoff
>> between =E2=80=9Cauthorization freshness=E2=80=9D vs additional =
signaling.
>=20
> Yes, there is a tradeoff here and we allow those who deploy the =
protocol
> to decide themselves about this tradeoff.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Page 25: "In case 2., the RS does not need to receive any message
>> from the client,"
>>=20
>> [Rafa] I do not understand why the RS does not need to receive any
>> message from the client=E2=80=A6 could you clarify?
>=20
> I let Goeran respond to this comment since it relates to the publish
> subscribe model.
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
>>=20
>> Hope this helps.
>>=20
>> Best Regards.
>>=20
>> ------------------------------------------------------- Rafael Marin
>> Lopez, PhD Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)=20
>> Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia 30100 Murcia -
>> Spain Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es=20
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list=20
>> Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>=20

-------------------------------------------------------
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
30100 Murcia - Spain
Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
-------------------------------------------------------





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Subject: Re: [Ace] My comments about draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Hi G=C3=B6ran:

>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Page 16
>>>=20
>>> "Figure 5: Access Token including Public Key of the Client.
>>>=20
>>> Messages C and F are shown in Figure 6 - Figure 7.
>>>=20
>>> C: The client then sends the PoP token to the /authz-info resource =
at
>>> the RS.  This is a plain CoAP request, i.e. no DTLS/OSCOAP between
>>> client and RS, since the token is integrity protected between AS and
>>> RS."
>>>=20
>>> [Rafa] I think I am missing something here. A PoP token proves that
>>> the client knows a key (key confirmation). But the reason you give
>>> for not using DTLS/OSCOAP is that the token is integrity protected =
AS
>>> and RS. The client should prove that it owns the key anyway, no?
>=20
> [GS] Yes, you are right that the client needs to prove possession of =
the
> key in the PoP token, but the PoP token provisioning needs not be
> integrity protected by the client. It suffices in principle that it is
> signed or MACed by the AS (you could also consider replay protection).

> The
> proof of possession step comes in the access request, which may be
> separated out from the token provisioning step, relating to your next
> question.

[Rafa] You mean the Fig. 7 where the DTLS is established that proves the =
possession of the key , right?

>=20
>>>=20
>>> "The RS verifies that the PoP token was created by a known and
>>> trusted AS, is valid, and responds to the client. The RS caches the
>>> security context together with authorization information about this
>>> client contained in the PoP token."
>>>=20
>>> [Rafa] This is related to my previous comment. Is it possible for an
>>> attacker to reply the PoP token? It should not due to PoP token
>>> nature but nothing is mentioned about it, just the verification that
>>> it was created by a trusted AS. Maybe my understanding of PoP token
>>> is wrong.
>>>=20
>=20
> [GS] As you write, a second POST using the same PoP token would not =
lead
> to a violation of privileges, but may be used in a DoS attack which is =
one
> reason to have some form of replay protection. Just to be clear, the
> intent here is to minimize the transport so that the PoP token is
> transported once but may be used multiple times (if supported by the
> claims).

[Rafa] Do you mean creating a state related with the PoP token in the =
resource server before accessing the service? Is this correct?

>=20
>>=20
>> This is a very good comment since I had to fight with this issue as
>> well. Here is the issue. If you look at the way how things work in =
HTTP
>> then you would include the token with the (initial) resource request.
>>=20
>> We ideally want to have the same pattern also in CoAP and CoAP is
>> supposed to be designed like HTTP. However, as it turns out there are
>> some issues in terms of size limitations. Hence, it may be necessary =
to
>> send the token to a special authorization endpoint first before =
making
>> the resource request. While I do not quite like that design I believe =
it
>> is a side-effect of the CoAP design.
>=20
> [GS] Just to add to what Hannes wrote, we consider the optimization of
> combining token provisioning with access request to RS in Appendix B.

[Rafa] Thanks for the pointer!

>=20
> G=C3=B6ran
>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> "6.3.  Token Introspection with an Offline Client"
>>>=20
>>> [Rafa] Although token introspection may be an interesting feature, I
>>> am thinking that sending additional messages from the RS to the AS =
is
>>> not good when RS is constrained. I understand it is a tradeoff
>>> between =E2=80=9Cauthorization freshness=E2=80=9D vs additional =
signaling.
>>=20
>> Yes, there is a tradeoff here and we allow those who deploy the =
protocol
>> to decide themselves about this tradeoff.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Page 25: "In case 2., the RS does not need to receive any message
>>> from the client,"
>>>=20
>>> [Rafa] I do not understand why the RS does not need to receive any
>>> message from the client=E2=80=A6 could you clarify?
>>=20
>> I let Goeran respond to this comment since it relates to the publish
>> subscribe model.
>>=20
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>=20
>>> Best Regards.
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------------------------------- Rafael Marin
>>> Lopez, PhD Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
>>> Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia 30100 Murcia -
>>> Spain Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

-------------------------------------------------------
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
30100 Murcia - Spain
Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
-------------------------------------------------------





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From: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
To: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 14:18:20 +0100
References: <D25BAADB.219C6%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution comparison
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"Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> writes:

> I uploaded the chairs slides for the ACE session tomorrow morning.
>
> The last slide is the solution comparison table:

Thanks for collecting this.

Adhoc, I have a few addtions (more are likely to follow soon):=20

* "Architecture"
  * "Have CAS"/"No CAS" is not that catchy. Maybe it would be better
    to describe the consequences: DCAF supports cross-domain multi-owner
    scenarios, while the OAuth-profile only supports cross-domain or
    multi-owner, but not both at the same time.
  * Another consequence of having a CAS is that DCAF protects both sides
    of the communication between C and S, not only the resource side as
    done by the single-AS models such as the OAuth-profile.

* "Fit into Constrained Environments"
  * OAuth-interoperability has been demonstrated, token introspection is
    not covered by DCAF itself because it is another protocol; but
    nothing in DCAF precludes doing that
  * it should be noted that both, the client and the server can be
    constrained (for "OAuth-Profiling", the client can be constrained
    only in the single-domain scenario, though)

* "Security"
  * The constrained C and RS get a dynamically created symmetric session
    key. All other communication, especially between CAS and RAS can be
    asymmetric, of course. This includes the OAuth-typical scenario,
    where C and CAS are combined (as in "OAuth-Profiling").
  * DCAF can be used with DTLS or COSE (even intermixed)

* I suggest to add an additional item "Privacy"
  * DCAF does not need identifiers on the constrained-level that could
    be tracked
=20=20=20=20
* "Communication Models"
  * in addition to the client-initiated ticket request model and the
    server-initiated ticket request model (Selander/Seitz call them
    "push" and "pull"), DCAF also supports the "client-pull" model.
    RS can be offline in the client-initiated ticket request model and
    in the "client-pull" model;
    C can be offline in the server-initiated ticket request model

* "Implementations"
  * Do "Less" and "More" mean the number of implementations? Given that
    draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz has been submitted two weeks ago, and
    draft-ietf-cose-msg is not that old either, while the core of DCAF
    is stable for over two years now, I doubt that there will be a
    significant difference in the number of implementations.=20=20=20

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe
Olaf


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As I mentioned at the mic just now there is quite a lot of experience
with this approach over at cryptech.is.

Specifically reach out to the engineers (of which I am not one) on the
tech @ cryptech.is list for pointers to analysis etc.

	Cheers Leif


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From: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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> ´ËÓÊ¼þÊ¹ÓÃ MIME ¸ñÊ½¡£ÓÉÓÚÓÊ¼þÔÄ¶Á³ÌÐò²»ÄÜÊ¶±ð
´Ë¸ñÊ½£¬Òò´Ë£¬¿ÉÄÜÎÞ·¨Ê¶±ð¸ÃÓÊ¼þµÄ·Ö²¿»ò²¿·ÖÄÚÈÝ¡£

--B_3529319968_13101542
Content-type: text/plain;
	charset="GB2312"
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At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the
participants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a
starting point for future work of the solution charter item:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/

For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether you
accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng 



--B_3529319968_13101542
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="GB2312"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans-serif;"><div>At the face-to-face meeting of t=
he ACE working group in Yokohama, the participants in the room decided to ac=
cept the OAuth profiling draft as a starting point for future work of the so=
lution charter item:</div><div><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oa=
uth-authz/</a>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>For those who weren't present =
in the room, please let us know whether you accept or object to this decisio=
n, before 17th Nov, 2015.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Kind Regards</div><div>Kepeng&nbsp;</div></body></html>

--B_3529319968_13101542--



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To: ace@ietf.org, Rafa Marin Lopez <rafa@um.es>
References: <33297FDC-BAA8-402B-80B8-B9CE19991D02@um.es> <2D596355-C89B-4162-943C-E049B301D83F@nexusgroup.com> <A1693327-0307-4EDA-926D-E85473551C1E@um.es>
From: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>
Message-ID: <56370C17.4030901@sics.se>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 08:09:11 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ace] My comments about draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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On 2015-11-01 21:04, Rafa Marin Lopez wrote:
>>>
>>> Page 25: "In case 2., the RS does not need to receive any message fro=
m the
>>>    client,"
>>>
>>> [Rafa] I do not understand why the RS does not need to receive any me=
ssage from the client=85 could you clarify?
>>>
>> "Messages" is actually tokens in this scenario.
>
> [Rafa] Oh I see.
>

Actually the client might actually not be sending any messages to the RS =

here. The example we are looking at is a publish-subscribe scenario with =

a message broker as suggested in draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-02. So=20
the RS would send (encrypted and signed) sensor readings to the broker=20
and the client would get those readings directly from the broker without =

ever sending messages to the RS. It would also get the necessary keys=20
from the AS if it is allowed access.

/Ludwig


--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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From: Shahid Raza <shahid@sics.se>
In-Reply-To: <D25D2619.21B54%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:11:43 +0100
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To: Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Cc: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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I accept this decision.

/Shahid

> On 02 Nov 2015, at 06:39, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the =
participants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as =
a starting point for future work of the solution charter item:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/>=20
>=20
> For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether =
you accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I accept this decision.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">/Shahid</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
02 Nov 2015, at 06:39, Kepeng Li &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com" =
class=3D"">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, sans-serif;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">At the =
face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the =
participants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as =
a starting point for future work of the solution charter item:</div><div =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/</a=
>&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For =
those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether you =
accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kind Regards</div><div =
class=3D"">Kepeng&nbsp;</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Ace =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Ace@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Paul Madsen <paul.madsen@gmail.com>
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accept

On 11/2/15 12:39 AM, Kepeng Li wrote:
> At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the 
> participants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft 
> as a starting point for future work of the solution charter item:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/
>
> For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether 
> you accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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    accept<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/2/15 12:39 AM, Kepeng Li wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:D25D2619.21B54%25kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in
        Yokohama, the participants in the room decided to accept the
        OAuth profiling draft as a starting point for future work of the
        solution charter item:</div>
      <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/</a> </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know
        whether you accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov,
        2015.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Thanks,</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Kind Regards</div>
      <div>Kepeng </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
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--------------080102070007070902020603--


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Accept

-steve

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
wrote:

> At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the
> participants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a
> starting point for future work of the solution charter item:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/
>
> For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether you
> accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
>

--001a1137a2163a9fbd05238eeaae
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Accept<div><br></div><div>-steve</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Kepe=
ng Li <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-size:14px;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,sans-serif"><div>At the fac=
e-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the participants in=
 the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a starting point f=
or future work of the solution charter item:</div><div><a href=3D"http://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/" target=3D"_blank">http=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/</a>=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>For those who weren&#39;t present in the room, please let =
us know whether you accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 201=
5.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Kind Regards</=
div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Kepeng=C2=A0</div><=
/font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1137a2163a9fbd05238eeaae--


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Accept.
-Abhinav

________________________________
From: Ace [ace-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Kepeng Li [kepeng.lkp@alibaba=
-inc.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 6:39 AM
To: Ace@ietf.org
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty; Hannes Tschofenig; Stephen Farrell
Subject: [Ace] Solution direction

At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the parti=
cipants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a starti=
ng point for future work of the solution charter item:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/

For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether you a=
ccept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng
________________________________________________________ The contents of th=
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mmediately notify the sender and delete the e-mail and attached documents. =
Please note that neither the sender nor the sender's company accept any res=
ponsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan or otherwise =
check this e-mail and any attachments.

--_000_0E9A48AB39AF3547ACD28A6DE3E2906A0ED6F88EATBRAGMSX02itis_
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10pt;">Accept.
<div>-Abhinav</div>
<div><br>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF875890" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Ace [ace-bounces@ietf.org] on behal=
f of Kepeng Li [kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 02, 2015 6:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ace@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kathleen Moriarty; Hannes Tschofenig; Stephen Farrell<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ace] Solution direction<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the =
participants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a s=
tarting point for future work of the solution charter item:</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz=
/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-=
authz/</a>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether =
you accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind Regards</div>
<div>Kepeng&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
________________________________________________________ The contents of th=
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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 18:20:20 +0100
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From: Samuel Erdtman <samuel@erdtman.se>
To: Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Accept!

Best Regards
//Samuel Erdtman

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:39 AM, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
wrote:

> At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the
> participants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a
> starting point for future work of the solution charter item:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/
>
> For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether you
> accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Tahoma;font-si=
ze:13.3333px">Accept!</span><br><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-f=
amily:Tahoma;font-size:13.3333px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13.3333px">Best Regards</span></d=
iv><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13.333=
3px">//Samuel Erdtman</span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:39 AM, Kepeng Li <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank=
">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14p=
x;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,sans-serif"><div>At the face-to-face meeti=
ng of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the participants in the room decid=
ed to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a starting point for future work =
of the solution charter item:</div><div><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/</a>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><di=
v>For those who weren&#39;t present in the room, please let us know whether=
 you accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Kind Regards</div><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Kepeng=C2=A0</div></font></span></=
div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113a7dfa3df92c0523e27537--


From nobody Thu Nov 12 10:31:13 2015
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From: Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>
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Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Non-WG Mailing List: lp-wan -- Low-Power Wide Area Networking (LP-WAN), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN (LR-WAN)
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All,
     This new mailing list may be of interest. It is hosting discussion
on deploying IP on very constrained wireless systems.

Regards,
Brian


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Non-WG Mailing List: lp-wan -- Low-Power Wide Area
Networking (LP-WAN), also known as LPWA or Low-Rate WAN (LR-WAN)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:05:12 -0800
From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat@ietf.org>
Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org
To: IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>

A new IETF non-working group email list has been created.

List address: lp-wan@ietf.org
Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=3Dlp-wan
To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

Purpose:

An LP-WAN has unique constraints, not seen until now - operation in the
ISM bands (unlicensed spectrum), very low throughput (300 bps - 50
kbps), very high density (10 000-100 000 nodes per Access Point (AP)),
infrastructure networks (star topology, no need for routing), AP
diversity (several APs can receive the same signal), coexistence of
public networks (country-wide) and private networks (city, building,
campus). Asymmetric links are also common, with at least one major
technology providing exclusively unidirectional data services.

LP-WANs will form the backbone of major IoT applications related to many
domains, such as Smart City, Smart Metering, ITS and are expected to
connect 3 billion devices by 2020. There are several such LP- WAN radio
technologies (Semtech LoRa, SigFox, Qowisio, others), each having a
proprietary, locked-in, non-standard solution for addressing,
localization, security, provisioning, AAA, etc. This is the case because
the stringent LP-WAN constraints do not allow for classical approaches
to be used as-is.

The goal of this mailing list is to discuss the problems that arise in
LP-WANs and how the IETF-based solutions apply to them. This is the
place to identify the candidate LP-WAN technologies, their specific
constraints and limitations, consider the corresponding IETF approaches,
and discuss the need for profiles or adaptations of the existing solution=
s.

For additional information, please contact the list administrators.




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Thread-Topic: A draft on CBOR Web Tokens (CWT)
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Subject: [Ace] A draft on CBOR Web Tokens (CWT)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [COSE] A draft on CBOR Web Tokens (CWT)
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Hi Erik,

having this draft is a good thing.

One thing I'm still wondering is what WG is the best place to progress
this.  We probably don't need to spend too much time on this because,
regardless of the WG chosen, the people in another WG can look at it.
Still, getting this right might provide some efficiencies.

What is the technical content of this draft?  Is it a new token that
OAuth needs specifically for the new COSE-based applications of OAuth?
Is it a new token that is specifically there for addressing ACE needs?
Or is it essentially the same substance as JWT, but phrased in and
profiled for CBOR?

Depending on the answer, CWT should be done in OAuth, ACE, or COSE.
(I'd rather hear the answer from the authors than venture a guess myself.)

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten



Erik WahlstrÃ¶m neXus wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> In the ACE WG a straw man proposal of a CBOR Web Token (CWT) was defined
> in the draft "Authorization for the Internet of Things using OAuth 2.0â€�
> [1]. We just broke out the CBOR Web Token into a separate draft and the
> new draft is submitted to the OAUTH WG. It can be found here: 
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token/
> 
> Abstract: 
> "CBOR Web Token (CWT) is a compact means of representing claims to be
> transferred between two parties.  CWT is a profile of the JSON Web Token
> (JWT) that is optimized for constrained devices. The claims in a CWT are
> encoded in the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) and CBOR
> Object Signing and Encryption (COSE) is used for added application layer
> security protection.  A claim is a piece of information asserted about a
> subject and is represented as a name/value pair consisting of a claim
> name and a claim value."
> 
> / Erik
> 
> 
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> COSE mailing list
> COSE@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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Subject: Re: [Ace] [COSE] A draft on CBOR Web Tokens (CWT)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [COSE] A draft on CBOR Web Tokens (CWT)
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Thanks very much, Eric.

As we promised in Yokohama, the chairs of the COSE working group are =
currently running a consensus call thread about this very topic, and =
I=E2=80=99d encourage others to join that discussion. The thread starts =
here:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00747.html

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:10 PM, Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus =
<erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> In the ACE WG a straw man proposal of a CBOR Web Token (CWT) was =
defined in the draft "Authorization for the Internet of Things using =
OAuth 2.0=E2=80=9D [1]. We just broke out the CBOR Web Token into a =
separate draft and the new draft is submitted to the OAUTH WG. It can be =
found here:=20
>=20
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token/>
>=20
> Abstract:=20
> "CBOR Web Token (CWT) is a compact means of representing claims to be =
transferred between two parties.  CWT is a profile of the JSON Web Token =
(JWT) that is optimized for constrained devices. The claims in a CWT are =
encoded in the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) and CBOR =
Object Signing and Encryption (COSE) is used for added application layer =
security protection.  A claim is a piece of information asserted about a =
subject and is represented as a name/value pair consisting of a claim =
name and a claim value."
>=20
> / Erik
>=20
>=20
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> COSE mailing list
> COSE@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


--Apple-Mail=_C6D98A78-6AB4-405D-80A6-BB4D661F8B40
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Thanks very much, Eric.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As we promised in Yokohama, the chairs =
of the COSE working group are currently running a consensus call thread =
about this very topic, and I=E2=80=99d encourage others to join that =
discussion. The thread starts here:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00747.html" =
class=3D"">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cose/current/msg00747.html=
</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=
=94 Justin</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:10 PM, =
Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com" =
class=3D"">erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D"">

<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Hi,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">In the ACE WG a straw man proposal of a CBOR Web Token =
(CWT) was defined in the draft "Authorization for the Internet of Things =
using OAuth 2.0=E2=80=9D [1]. We just broke out the CBOR Web Token into =
a separate draft and the new draft&nbsp;is submitted to
 the OAUTH WG. It can be found here:&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-t=
oken/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-we=
b-token/</a></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Abstract:&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">"CBOR Web Token (CWT) is a compact means of representing =
claims to be transferred between two parties. &nbsp;CWT is a profile of =
the JSON Web Token (JWT) that is optimized for constrained devices. The =
claims in a CWT are encoded in the Concise Binary
 Object Representation (CBOR) and CBOR Object Signing and Encryption =
(COSE) is used for added application layer security protection. &nbsp;A =
claim is a piece of information asserted about a subject and is =
represented as a name/value pair consisting of a claim name
 and a claim value."</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">/ Erik</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">[1]&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00</a><=
/div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">COSE =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:COSE@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">COSE@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_C6D98A78-6AB4-405D-80A6-BB4D661F8B40--


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Subject: Re: [Ace] [COSE] A draft on CBOR Web Tokens (CWT)
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Regarding the draft itself, a few comments:

1.
Can we unify the claim registry with JWT? I'm worried about having the same
claims defined twice in CWT and JWT with possibly conflicting meanings (and
needless confusion even when they do match).

Comparing
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token-00#sectio=
n-3.1.2
and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2 which are nearly
identical, I just don't see the value in re-defining it.

We may add new standard claims to JWT in the future (I proposed one
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=3Did-event&gbt=3D1&in=
dex=3D7qNUnaE9lt2LyayMnmNyWpZSIEM>
in
Yokohama on the id-event list
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>), it would be good if this
didn't need a separate entry in CWT too, but could just apply directly
(separately, I think you should consider this claim, as it helps prevent
tokens from being re-used in the wrong context).

2.
Is Section 4 "Summary of CBOR major types used by defined claims" normative
(
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token-00#sectio=
n-4)?
What is the intention of this section? I feel like it could probably be
fleshed out a bit.

3.
Add a xref to draft COSE spec in section 6
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token-00#secti=
on-6>
Add xref to RFC7519

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus <
erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com> wrote:

> Hi Carsten,
>
> Thanks, and I agree. I=E2=80=99ve heard arguments for all three work grou=
ps.
>
> Borrowed some of your words to define the content of the draft :)
> It=E2=80=99s it essentially a JWT, phrased in and profiled for CBOR to ad=
dress ACE
> needs, where OAuth needs COSE functionality, for object security.
>
> I=E2=80=99m open for letting the AD=E2=80=99s move it around, but having =
it right next to
> JWT seems right to me. Also open for the ACE WG. Feel it has less place i=
n
> COSE for the same reasons JWT is not in the JOSE WG.
>
> / Erik
>
>
> > On 12 Nov 2015, at 20:45, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Erik,
> >
> > having this draft is a good thing.
> >
> > One thing I'm still wondering is what WG is the best place to progress
> > this.  We probably don't need to spend too much time on this because,
> > regardless of the WG chosen, the people in another WG can look at it.
> > Still, getting this right might provide some efficiencies.
> >
> > What is the technical content of this draft?  Is it a new token that
> > OAuth needs specifically for the new COSE-based applications of OAuth?
> > Is it a new token that is specifically there for addressing ACE needs?
> > Or is it essentially the same substance as JWT, but phrased in and
> > profiled for CBOR?
> >
> > Depending on the answer, CWT should be done in OAuth, ACE, or COSE.
> > (I'd rather hear the answer from the authors than venture a guess
> myself.)
> >
> > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
> >
> >
> >
> > Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> In the ACE WG a straw man proposal of a CBOR Web Token (CWT) was defin=
ed
> >> in the draft "Authorization for the Internet of Things using OAuth 2.0=
=E2=80=9D
> >> [1]. We just broke out the CBOR Web Token into a separate draft and th=
e
> >> new draft is submitted to the OAUTH WG. It can be found here:
> >>
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token=
/
> >>
> >> Abstract:
> >> "CBOR Web Token (CWT) is a compact means of representing claims to be
> >> transferred between two parties.  CWT is a profile of the JSON Web Tok=
en
> >> (JWT) that is optimized for constrained devices. The claims in a CWT a=
re
> >> encoded in the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) and CBOR
> >> Object Signing and Encryption (COSE) is used for added application lay=
er
> >> security protection.  A claim is a piece of information asserted about=
 a
> >> subject and is represented as a name/value pair consisting of a claim
> >> name and a claim value."
> >>
> >> / Erik
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> COSE mailing list
> >> COSE@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>
> _______________________________________________
> COSE mailing list
> COSE@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose
>

--001a114900f40ad79205246388f8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Regarding the draft itself, a few comments:<br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>1.=C2=A0</div><div>Can we unify the claim registry with=
 JWT? I&#39;m worried about having the same claims defined twice in CWT and=
 JWT with possibly conflicting meanings (and needless confusion even when t=
hey do match).=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Comparing=C2=A0<a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token-00#secti=
on-3.1.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token=
-00#section-3.1.2</a> and=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc75=
19#section-4.1.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.2</a> whi=
ch are nearly identical, I just don&#39;t see the value in re-defining it.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>We may add new standard claims to JWT in the futur=
e (I=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=
=3Did-event&amp;gbt=3D1&amp;index=3D7qNUnaE9lt2LyayMnmNyWpZSIEM">proposed o=
ne</a>=C2=A0in Yokohama on the=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/id-event">id-event list</a>), it would be good if this didn&#39;t=
 need a separate entry in CWT too, but could just apply directly (separatel=
y, I think you should consider this claim, as it helps prevent tokens from =
being re-used in the wrong context).</div><div><br></div><div>2.</div><div>=
Is Section 4 &quot;Summary of CBOR major types used by defined claims&quot;=
 normative (<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-c=
bor-web-token-00#section-4">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wahlstroem-oa=
uth-cbor-web-token-00#section-4</a>)? What is the intention of this section=
? I feel like it could probably be fleshed out a bit.</div><div><br></div><=
div>3.=C2=A0</div><div>Add a xref to draft COSE spec in=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token-00#section-6=
">section 6</a></div><div>Add xref to RFC7519</div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 12:01 PM, E=
rik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:erik.wahls=
trom@nexusgroup.com" target=3D"_blank">erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Carsten,<br>
<br>
Thanks, and I agree. I=E2=80=99ve heard arguments for all three work groups=
.<br>
<br>
Borrowed some of your words to define the content of the draft :)<br>
It=E2=80=99s it essentially a JWT, phrased in and profiled for CBOR to addr=
ess ACE needs, where OAuth needs COSE functionality, for object security.<b=
r>
<br>
I=E2=80=99m open for letting the AD=E2=80=99s move it around, but having it=
 right next to JWT seems right to me. Also open for the ACE WG. Feel it has=
 less place in COSE for the same reasons JWT is not in the JOSE WG.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
/ Erik<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
&gt; On 12 Nov 2015, at 20:45, Carsten Bormann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cabo@t=
zi.org">cabo@tzi.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Erik,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; having this draft is a good thing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; One thing I&#39;m still wondering is what WG is the best place to prog=
ress<br>
&gt; this.=C2=A0 We probably don&#39;t need to spend too much time on this =
because,<br>
&gt; regardless of the WG chosen, the people in another WG can look at it.<=
br>
&gt; Still, getting this right might provide some efficiencies.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What is the technical content of this draft?=C2=A0 Is it a new token t=
hat<br>
&gt; OAuth needs specifically for the new COSE-based applications of OAuth?=
<br>
&gt; Is it a new token that is specifically there for addressing ACE needs?=
<br>
&gt; Or is it essentially the same substance as JWT, but phrased in and<br>
&gt; profiled for CBOR?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Depending on the answer, CWT should be done in OAuth, ACE, or COSE.<br=
>
&gt; (I&#39;d rather hear the answer from the authors than venture a guess =
myself.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In the ACE WG a straw man proposal of a CBOR Web Token (CWT) was d=
efined<br>
&gt;&gt; in the draft &quot;Authorization for the Internet of Things using =
OAuth 2.0=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;&gt; [1]. We just broke out the CBOR Web Token into a separate draft an=
d the<br>
&gt;&gt; new draft is submitted to the OAUTH WG. It can be found here:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wahlstroem-oauth=
-cbor-web-token/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-wahlstroem-oauth-cbor-web-token/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;CBOR Web Token (CWT) is a compact means of representing clai=
ms to be<br>
&gt;&gt; transferred between two parties.=C2=A0 CWT is a profile of the JSO=
N Web Token<br>
&gt;&gt; (JWT) that is optimized for constrained devices. The claims in a C=
WT are<br>
&gt;&gt; encoded in the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) and CBO=
R<br>
&gt;&gt; Object Signing and Encryption (COSE) is used for added application=
 layer<br>
&gt;&gt; security protection.=C2=A0 A claim is a piece of information asser=
ted about a<br>
&gt;&gt; subject and is represented as a name/value pair consisting of a cl=
aim<br>
&gt;&gt; name and a claim value.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; / Erik<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; [1] <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-a=
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From: Renzo Navas <renzoefra@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:30:50 +0100
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Subject: [Ace] Authenticated Key Establishment, OAut PoP Token and Time Requirements for Constrained Devices
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Good Evening ACE ML,

Reading draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00 (thanks to the authors for easy
to read doc) I was very interested by the PoP token that offers an
authenticated fresh key to be used for further secure the comm.,
but I saw a very strong requirement for the RS to have a Time Sync. mechanism.
I preview the objective of my mail,  is to raise the question:

* Do we want to have a strong requirement for the constrained device
(RS) on an AA Architecture to have a Time Synchronization mechanism?
* Are we interested on offering non-time -nonce- based solution for an
OAuth PoP Token approach (for example when the token does not expire)?


(those interested on those concerns can read the rest of the mail,
that is rather long)

Regards

-------------------------------------------------------

(Long version)

I've been working lately on the Authenticated Key Establishment
problem (The are two very good reference books [1][2]), focusing on
solutions with a Trusted Third Party, Symmetric Crypto, and not using
Time-stamps but Nonces (To avoid having to deal with time
synchronization).I have no strong Crypto background.

First I want to thank the authors of draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00 ,
very enlightening for the oauth neophytes.
I'm mostly interested on the authentication problem (auth. key
establishment), so the Proof-of-Possesion Token is a great
tool/concept, I took the time to read
draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture-05 and
draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution-02 to try to have all the
background possible.

So from the Authenticated key establishment mechanism point of view a
new fresh key between C and RS obtained by means of a  PoP Token
mechanism -I think- will be similar to a  Denning-Sacco shared key
protocol ( http://www.lsv.ens-cachan.fr/Software/spore/denningSacco.html
. Client is A, AS is S, and RS is B), with the difference that the PoP
Token Timestamp have a start and end value that will make the
"mutiplicity attack" of Denning-Sacco limited on time.

My concern is that we will always need Time sync on the RS, that some
(most) times will be the constrained node (I think that the Client
does not need to be Time-aware), is that a MUST requirement? So
no-time aware devices will not be able to use OAuth PoP Token (or will
have to use token introspection, a good fallback solution btw)

Will be of interest offering a PoP Token generation and transport
mechanisms that  offers an authenticated fresh key without the need of
Time-awarenness at the RS?

Time awareness at the RS offers great advantages, and maybe also Time
is always needed in all authorization solutions (to make easy token
expiration and freshness claims).

But I'm thinking about nonce-based authenticated key establishment. Of
course without time information embedded on the token, token
expiration will be more difficult:
 * we will need token introspection, or
 * the AS will contact the RS to revoke tokens, or
 * we will need on a non-time based solution for revocation that does
not involve the AS, for example: a pop token/key is valid for use only
for one (or N) Resource Requests (of course if the response message
get lost we are screwed...)


So maybe we cannot avoid to have Time-awareness at the RS, for
Authorization purposes..
But for Authentication certainly we can avoid Time, the three most
recommended by [2] nonce-based protocols are:
* Bellare-Rogaway (3PKD) [a Choo modified version It has been proven
provably secure on the strongest model to test auth. key establishment
protocols ] [3]
* Yahalom [a modified version has been proven secure on a weaker model
-bellare rogway- than 3PKD] [4]
* Boyd [Key Agreement: RS, C and AS contribute inputs to generate the
key] [proof idem yahalom ][5]

The message flows on that three of protocols do not respect OAuth
flows (I attach an image with the high level message flows, A is the
initiator always), so that take us apart a bit from OAuth...

This mail is starting to get long so I will try to conclude it, but
hopefully raise the question:


** Are we interested on offering non-time -nonce- based solution for
an OAuth PoP Token approach (for example when the token does not
expire)**?



If NO, I guess that will need token introspection for RS that cannot
support time (That mechanism will map to other authenticated key
establishment protocol and not Denning-Sacco-based )

if YES, are we interested in adapting a nonce-based auth. key
establishment protocol to OAuth PoP Token?


I hope this questions are useful,

Best regards

Renzo



[1] Colin A. Boyd and Anish Mathuria. 2003. Protocols for Key
Establishment and Authentication. Springer-Verlag New York, Inc.,
Secaucus, NJ, USA.
[2] Kim-Kwang Raymond Choo. 2008. Secure Key Establishment (1ed.).
Springer Publishing Company, Incorporated.

[3] 3PKD - http://eprints.qut.edu.au/1230/1/ACISP_Full_Version_-_03_May_2005.pdf
[4] Yahalom - https://eprint.iacr.org/2007/188.pdf
[5] Boyd - http://eprints.qut.edu.au/4421/1/4421_1.pdf

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From nobody Sun Nov 15 23:15:29 2015
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From: "Jim Schaad" <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <Ace@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:12:30 -0800
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Cc: cose@ietf.org
Subject: [Ace] How COSE items are identified
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We seem to have a potential problem for how COSE items are identified.

Initially, we used an integer inside of the structure to identify it.  That
is how the current ACE documents are written. This uses a single byte.

At the request of Carsten, we moved from doing this to using a tag at the
front of the structure.  Carsten believes that this can be done with a tag
that is in the two byte range when encoded (tag, length=1, tag value).  Part
of the reason that I agreed was that this was not really being used at the
time by the ACE documents.  

If one is almost always doing encrypted, then one could encode that
structure w/o the tag and do the other three structures with the tag.  This
would probably be ok as it would mostly use the smallest tagging (none) when
needed the most and use larger tagging (2 bytes) for the rest of the
structures.

Alternatively, we could modify the document to request the assignment of
tags in the one byte range for the most common structures and two bytes for
the less common structures (and have arguments about which is which).

Alternatively, we could revert back to putting an integer tag inside of the
array structure.

Comments on this are requested.

Jim



From nobody Mon Nov 16 00:23:02 2015
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From nobody Mon Nov 16 07:17:15 2015
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:17:02 -0600
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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Cc: cose@ietf.org, Ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] [COSE] How COSE items are identified
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I think it=E2=80=99s premature to assume one structure is used =E2=80=9Cmo=
st of the time=E2=80=9D as opposed to other structures and to optimize =
COSE for that case. Though if we take a cue from JOSE, it=E2=80=99s =
asymmetric signing, then MAC. Those might be reversed as I don=E2=80=99t =
have concrete numbers on this. Public keys are probably next. Encryption =
is far behind in my experience with JOSE.

My point is that I don=E2=80=99t think we can pick any one structure as =
=E2=80=9Cmost common=E2=80=9D yet as we=E2=80=99re extrapolating from =
exactly zero real-world examples.

 =E2=80=94 Justin (as non-chair)

> On Nov 16, 2015, at 1:12 AM, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> We seem to have a potential problem for how COSE items are identified.
>=20
> Initially, we used an integer inside of the structure to identify it.  =
That
> is how the current ACE documents are written. This uses a single byte.
>=20
> At the request of Carsten, we moved from doing this to using a tag at =
the
> front of the structure.  Carsten believes that this can be done with a =
tag
> that is in the two byte range when encoded (tag, length=3D1, tag =
value).  Part
> of the reason that I agreed was that this was not really being used at =
the
> time by the ACE documents. =20
>=20
> If one is almost always doing encrypted, then one could encode that
> structure w/o the tag and do the other three structures with the tag.  =
This
> would probably be ok as it would mostly use the smallest tagging =
(none) when
> needed the most and use larger tagging (2 bytes) for the rest of the
> structures.
>=20
> Alternatively, we could modify the document to request the assignment =
of
> tags in the one byte range for the most common structures and two =
bytes for
> the less common structures (and have arguments about which is which).
>=20
> Alternatively, we could revert back to putting an integer tag inside =
of the
> array structure.
>=20
> Comments on this are requested.
>=20
> Jim
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> COSE mailing list
> COSE@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cose


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Cc: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Hi all,

I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
from DCAF.

I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
party?

A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
security association with a less constrained device is required that can
then provide the keying material.

An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
scenario.

You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.

But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
controlled by their owners.

DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
it OAuth.

I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.

Best regards,
Steffi


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To: Madjid Nakhjiri <madjid.nakhjiri@mediatek.com>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
References: <D259207A.6B86%madjid.nakhjiri@mediatek.com>
From: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>
Message-ID: <564B091D.7010204@sics.se>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:01:49 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ace] comments on draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Hello Madjid,


sorry for the long delay in answering, I had to tie up numerous loose=20
ends from other projects after IETF 94.

Answers inline.

/Ludwig



On 2015-10-30 22:05, Madjid Nakhjiri wrote:
> Hi Ludwig,
>
> Regarding
>
> "You seem to have experience with specific issues in that matter, could=

> you describe those issues in more detail?=E2=80=9D
>
> I appreciate your inquiry for me to be frank, so let me provide a coupl=
e
> of broad answers:
>
> 1) I am involved with at least 3 standards who either are struggling or=

> working hard to solve the onboarding/ provisioning problems or IOT type=

> environments.
[...]

ACE has not considered this issue so far. One assumption I overheard was =

that the device would come with some barcode or other printed id that=20
would identify a key to be used for bootstrapping. Another assumption=20
was that proximity based mechanisms might be used for a leap-of-faith=20
like onboarding procedure.


There is some scientific work on that problem by Frank Stajano and Ross=20
Anderson (start here=20
https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~fms27/papers/1999-StajanoAnd-duckling.pdf), on =

a cursory glance they seem to propose contact (such as connecting to the =

device with a cable) as one solution
(which seems close to the proximity solution I overheard).

> 2) I am interested in figuring out what sort of support HW vendors like=

> Mediatek need to provide for supporting authorization mechanisms such a=
s
> OAUTH.
>

For OAuth, I would guess that support for proof-of-possession tokens is=20
a good start. This can be done both with symmetric and asymmetric crypto.=


This would mean that hardware AES would be a priority.

SHA-2 or SHA-3 for HMAC, signature algorithms and key derivation=20
functions is probably also a good idea.

Elliptic curve crypto support is propably what you want if the use cases =

require asymmetric cyrpto (e.g. for signatures).

Access to reliable time measurements impacts a lot how expiration,=20
replay-protection and freshness can be provided, so a RTC is also nice=20
to have.


I guess mostly it's a question of pricing for mass deployments, how much =

can the HW cost vs. what (crypto-)functions does it provide.


Anyone spotting something obvious I missed here?


[...]
>> NOTE: ACE is explicitly not chartered to work with key management and
>> the word has been shunned from any document, therefore I do not expect=

>> that ACE will work on that issue.
>
> Madjid>>fair enough. Is there any other place in IETF that deals with i=
t?
>
None that I'm aware of.

>>
>>
>>>   2. Same thing for RS to AS registration. RS is many times a constra=
ined
>>>      device itself. Also I am not clear how the AS will get the
>>>      authorization policies (scope/claim?) from RS. Is it that it is =
the
>>>      AS that decides??
>>
>>
>> Actually it was never planned that the itself RS should provide and
>> manage the authorization policies at the AS. The resource owners are
>> expected to do this at the AS directly, when they enroll a RS they own=
=2E
>
> Madjid>>Ok, makes sense. Are the policy definitions standardized? Or up=
 to
> each vendor?
>

No the policies are not standardized in ACE. I don't think that would=20
make much sense unless policies need to be exchanged between several=20
federated AS. In that case there are policy standards that could be used =

such as XACML, but that is definitely not an ACE matter since the AS are =

expected to be unconstrained.

[...]
>>>   4. Restrospection of the tokens can be expensive and unscalable for=
 the
>>>      AS (if there are many RS nodes), but verification of self-contai=
ned
>>>      tokens by the RS also sounds expensive, plus the verification ke=
ys
>>>      need to be provisioned in the RS. Would be nice to have guidance=
 on
>>>      which makes sense taking device capabilities/class into account.=
 Any
>>>      network simulators out there?
>>
>> I'm guessing you meant Introspection here right?
>>
>> The AS is not expected to be a constrained device, thus it should be
>> able to serve a significant number of introspection requests from
>> different RS. Introspection works best if the RS has a good connectivi=
ty
>> to the AS while the client has intermittent connectivity or simply
>> connectivity for the client is expensive (e.g. costs a lot of battery)=
=2E
>> Of course the number of AS has to be scaled up with the number of RS,
>> but I don't think that is any different for non-constrained scenarios.=

>
> Madjid>>Yes, Introspection, sorry.
> You are assuming that AS is in the cloud? Or within the =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=
=80=9D
> environment? I guess, if in the cloud, then scalability should be no
> issue.
 > If local, then the volume should be low, which also ok.

No specific assumptions on the AS here. The sole assumption for this=20
usecase is that the client has no connectivity after being deployed.

> Either way, the assumption of introspection is that the cost of sending=
 a
> token back to AS is lower than verifying it locally. The question is ho=
w
> do know the verification actually came from AS? Are you assuming a
> persistent TLS/ DTLS (if there is such a thing) connection to avoid
> message integrity verification costs?

Since the client has no connectivity in this case, it needs a long-lived =

token. This means that you do not want to bind specific rights to that=20
token when it is issued (such as e.g. a specific scope).
This means that the RS _can not_ verify the token locally.

There is a cost saving aspect here as well since the token can be made=20
very compact (it's just a reference that the AS uses to look up the=20
client's access rights in the introspection). This saves transmission=20
volume in the communication between client and RS.

>
>>
>> Verifying a self-contained token certainly can be expensive, but the
>> alternative is to be connected to the network in order to get a
>> real-time access control decision from an AS.
>>
>> We assume roughly the following "hierarchy" of costs (from most
>> expensive to least):
>>
>> 1. Network traffic (sending/receiving/listening for incoming messages)=

>> 2. Crypto operations
>> 3. Matching requests against permissions granted by access tokens
>
>

>> Several experiments I conducted have shown that 3. is almost negligibl=
e
>> when compared to the cost of 2. and 1.  When you add the overhead of
>> running a security protocol when doing network communication, this mak=
es
>> both 2. & 3. very cheap compared with 1.
>
> Madjid>>Interesting. So what is the metric for cost? CPU cycles? Time
> spent in a task lock? What sort of OS you have in mind? OS or RTOS?
> I would love to see any paper or info on the experiments you conducted.=


I think it's not very surprising, since matching the requests to tokens=20
will usually just require a few comparisons (strings, integers, binary,=20
and perhaps regexp at worst), while crypto involves some heavy=20
calculations (AES takes 10 rounds of transformations for 128 bit keys=20
for example).

I have supervised two masters thesis projects that have some results to=20
that effect.

*http://soda.swedish-ict.se/5684/1/NiklasHjern_JonasVistrand_Master_Thesi=
s_EIT.pdf

This is a project using a token-based authorization approach (not OAuth) =

and TLS. From the figures in section 6 you can see that transmitting the =

token is by far the most expensive part (red parts of the figures) while =

processing TLS vs TLS+matching requests against tokens is almost=20
indistinguishable.


* http://soda.swedish-ict.se/5681/1/Thesis._AC_in_the_IoT._Final.pdf

This is a project using a key derivation method to provision pre-shared=20
keys via a trusted third party (based on=20
draft-seitz-core-security-modes-00). Here it is shown that a key=20
derivation (including some Base64 decoding and SHA-2 calculations) is=20
almost negligible in comparison to a DTLS handshake. If you want to=20
extend this to generic message exchanges, the key derivation is roughly
equivalent to sending a ClientHello message (compare tables 7.1 and 7.2|)=
=2E

http://soda.swedish-ict.se/5681/1/Thesis._AC_in_the_IoT._Final.pdf


--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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From: Somaraju Abhinav <abhinav.somaraju@tridonic.com>
To: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ACE] Review of draft-ietf-ace-actors-02
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Subject: [Ace] [ACE] Review of draft-ietf-ace-actors-02
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--_000_0E9A48AB39AF3547ACD28A6DE3E2906A0F1ABF6CATBRAGMSX02itis_
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Hi All,
Please see below for a review of the ace actors draft.
Regards,
Abhinav

It is very difficult for me to understand what this document is trying to a=
chieve and exactly what benefits the document provides. It feels like the d=
ocument is trying to do a little bit of everything without doing a good job=
 of anything. The confusion begins with the title and abstract. Based on th=
e title it seems to me that the authors are trying to address some or all o=
f the following aspects: terminology, actors, elements (not sure what "elem=
ents" means) the architecture is trying to address, a problem statement, so=
me aspects of an architecture. I do not know understand what value such a d=
ocument brings to the working group because I do not know how to judge it a=
nd more importantly, I do not know how and when I should be using it.

If the authors can give a simple answer to the question "how and when shoul=
d I be using the contents of this draft", it would be very helpful.

I will try to address each of these aspects as far as I understood in the d=
raft

Terminology

-          Resource, resource server, client is already defined in RFC7231/=
RFC7252, why define it again

-          Constrained device is already defined, why do we need to define =
constrained node?

-          Authenticated Authorization:  A synthesis of mechanisms for auth=
entication and authorization. The statement makes no sense to me.

-          I do not understand why the paragraph regarding "client-side asp=
ect of Authorization" included in the terminology section? If you want to r=
edefine the term authorization and include it in the terminology section th=
en please give a proper definition. I think a large part of the confusion r=
egarding the need for CAS could be fixed if the authors provide a simple de=
finition for what is meant by "client-side aspect of Authorization" in the =
terminology section.

-          Undefinded terms: controlling principal on P.5 (what is the diff=
erence to principle)



Elements of an architecture

-          The abstract says "the elements that an architecture needs to ad=
dress" but Section 2.1 is titled "elements of an architecture". I do not kn=
ow what each statement means and what is the relation between the two.

-          How should I judge only parts of an architecture if the whole th=
ing is not present?

-          I do not understand  "Objectives of type 2: C is exchanging info=
rmation with (sending a  request to, accepting a response from) a resource =
only where it can ascertain that RqP has authorized the exchange with R."

o   The client always initiates any interaction with a server. So the "clie=
nt authorization" is implicit in the design of restful protocols. It is onl=
y server side authorization policies that need to be added additionally. I =
can see a reason for the client to authenticate a server but I do not under=
stand what client side authorization is required that is over and above wha=
t already comes implicitly with RESTful protocols ala something/someone tri=
ggers a client to access resources on a particular server. Authorization po=
licies are required on the server side because they should be ready to acce=
pt new requests. With this in mind, I do not understand what exactly the CA=
S is supposed to accomplish other than help with authenticating the server.

o In the introduction the authors say Authorization is about who can do wha=
t to which objects.

o



Problem Statement

-          "The problem statement for authorization in constrained environm=
ents can be summarized as follows" is not true. This document focuses on on=
e problem in the set of all problems in the constrained networks. Missing p=
roblems for example include secure bootstrap, group communication etc. Mayb=
e the authors what to say that they are focusing on one problem statement i=
n the constrained environment.

-          "The interaction between potentially constrained endpoint contro=
lled by control information provided by less-constrained nodes on behalf of=
 the principals of the endpoints." Assumes one particular architecture. The=
re are several options here and I do not understand how a working group dra=
ft regarding the problem statements in the constrained network can assume o=
ne architectural proposal.

-architecture:
How can I judge "elements of an architecture"? I do not see any benefit in =
specifying only small parts of an architecture-I need the whole thing to un=
derstand if it works or not.


I do not understand    o  Objectives of type 2: C is exchanging information=
 with (sending a

      request to, accepting a response from) a resource only where it

      can ascertain that RqP has authorized the exchange with R.

Actors

-          This section is the only Section that I found useful in the docu=
ment and introduces terms such as CAS and AS which are less constrained.

-          I do not understand the role that CAS plays as far as authorizat=
ion is concerned. However, CAS could play a role with regards to helping th=
e constrained client authenticate the remote server.

Other points:

4.  Authentication and Authorization

-          The authors mention nothing about "client side authorization in =
the section". The server side authorization and the link of authorization t=
o authentication is well know. This Section would be a good place to explai=
n the role of the CAS.


6.  Kinds of Protocols

-          What is this section trying to achieve. There is absolutely noth=
ing mentioned in the introduction or abstract regarding this Section and I =
do not see any benefit of including it.

7.  Elements of a Solution & 8.  Assumptions and Requirements

-          In a document trying to identify a problem statement/actors I do=
 not see the need to also add a section that addresses some aspects of a so=
lution

-          "Without anticipating specific solutions" is not an accurate sta=
tement. Using a CAS already assumes a specific type of solution.


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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please see below for a review of the ace actors draf=
t.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Abhinav<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is very difficult for me to understand what this =
document is trying to achieve and exactly what benefits the document provid=
es. It feels like the document is trying to do a little bit of everything w=
ithout doing a good job of anything.
 The confusion begins with the title and abstract. Based on the title it se=
ems to me that the authors are trying to address some or all of the followi=
ng aspects: terminology, actors, elements (not sure what &#8220;elements&#8=
221; means) the architecture is trying to address,
 a problem statement, some aspects of an architecture. I do not know unders=
tand what value such a document brings to the working group because I do no=
t know how to judge it and more importantly, I do not know how and when I s=
hould be using it.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If the authors can give a simple answer to the quest=
ion &#8220;how and when should I be using the contents of this draft&#8221;=
, it would be very helpful.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I will try to address each of these aspects as far a=
s I understood in the draft<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Terminology<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Resource, resource server, client is already define=
d in RFC7231/RFC7252, why define it again<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Constrained device is already defined, why do we ne=
ed to define constrained node?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:black">Authenticated Au=
thorization:&nbsp; A synthesis of mechanisms for authentication and authori=
zation. The statement makes no sense to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">I do not understand why the paragraph regarding &#8220;<span sty=
le=3D"color:black">client-side aspect of Authorization&#8221; included in t=
he terminology section? If you want to redefine the term authorization and =
include it in the terminology section then please give a proper definition.=
 I think a large part of the confusion regarding the need for CAS could be =
fixed if the authors provide a simple definition for what is meant by </spa=
n>&#8220;<span style=3D"color:black">client-side aspect of Authorization&#8=
221; in the terminology section. <o:p></o:p></span></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:black">Undefinded terms: controlling principal on P.5 (what=
 is the difference to principle)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Elements of an architecture <o:p></o:p></b></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span styl=
e=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">The abstrac=
t says &#8220;the elements that an architecture needs to address&#8221; but=
 Section 2.1 is titled &#8220;elements of an architecture&#8221;. I do not =
know what each statement means and what is the relation between the two.<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:black">How should I judge only parts of an architecture if =
the whole thing is not present?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">I do not understand <span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&#8220;Obj=
ectives of type 2: C is exchanging information with (sending a&nbsp; reques=
t to, accepting a response from) a resource only where it can ascertain tha=
t RqP has authorized the exchange with R.&#8221; <o:p></o:p></span></span><=
/pre>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;col=
or:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;=
Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>The client always initiates any interaction =
with a server. So the &#8220;client authorization&#8221; is implicit in the=
 design of restful protocols. It is only server side authorization policies=
 that need to be added additionally. I can see
 a reason for the client to authenticate a server but I do not understand w=
hat client side authorization is required that is over and above what alrea=
dy comes implicitly with RESTful protocols ala something/someone triggers a=
 client to access resources on a
 particular server. Authorization policies are required on the server side =
because they should be ready to accept new requests. With this in mind, I d=
o not understand what exactly the CAS is supposed to accomplish other than =
help with authenticating the server.<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list=
:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"> </span></=
span></span><![endif]>In the introduction the authors say <span style=3D"co=
lor:black">Authorization is about who can do what to which objects.<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;col=
or:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;=
Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Problem Statement <o:p></o:p></span></b></=
pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:black">&#8220;The problem statement for authorization in co=
nstrained environments can be summarized as follows&#8221; is not true. Thi=
s document focuses on one problem in the set of all problems in the constra=
ined networks. Missing problems for example include secure bootstrap, group=
 communication etc. Maybe the authors what to say that they are focusing on=
 one problem statement in the constrained environment.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span styl=
e=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&#8220;The =
interaction between potentially constrained endpoint controlled by control =
information provided by less-constrained nodes on behalf of the principals =
of the endpoints.&#8221; Assumes one particular architecture. There are sev=
eral options here and I do not understand how a working group draft regardi=
ng the problem statements in the constrained network can assume one archite=
ctural proposal.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-architecture:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can I judge &#8220;elements of an architecture&#=
8221;? I do not see any benefit in specifying only small parts of an archit=
ecture-I need the whole thing to understand if it works or not.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;">I do not understand <span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;o&nbsp; Objectives of type 2: C is exchanging information with (se=
nding a<o:p></o:p></span></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request to, ac=
cepting a response from) a resource only where it<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; can ascertain =
that RqP has authorized the exchange with R.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Actors<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>This section is the only Section that I found usefu=
l in the document and introduces terms such as CAS and AS which are less co=
nstrained.
<b><o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>I do not understand the role that CAS plays as far =
as authorization is concerned. However, CAS could play a role with regards =
to helping the constrained client authenticate the remote server.
<b><o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Other points:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><b><span style=3D"color:black">4.&nbsp; Authentication and Authorizati=
on<o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:black">The authors mention nothing about &#8220;client side=
 authorization in the section&#8221;. The server side authorization and the=
 link of authorization to authentication is well know. This Section would b=
e a good place to explain the role of the CAS. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre><b><span style=3D"color:black">6.&nbsp; Kinds of Protocols</span></b><=
b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:black">What is this section trying to achieve. There is abs=
olutely nothing mentioned in the introduction or abstract regarding this Se=
ction and I do not see any benefit of including it.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><b><span style=3D"color:black">7.&nbsp; Elements of a Solution &amp; 8=
.&nbsp; Assumptions and Requirements<o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span styl=
e=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:b=
lack">In a document trying to identify a problem statement/actors I do not =
see the need to also add a section that addresses some aspects of a solutio=
n</span><b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></b></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span styl=
e=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&#8220;With=
out anticipating specific solutions&#8221; is not an accurate statement. Us=
ing a CAS already assumes a specific type of solution. <o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: Somaraju Abhinav <abhinav.somaraju@tridonic.com>
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Thread-Topic: [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Subject: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Hi,

I have reviewed the draft and find that is very nicely written and easy to =
understand. It would be nice to see this document taken further and made in=
to an RFC.

I have a question regarding the usage of OAuth in constrained networks. In =
web architectures, OAuth is used a lot. However, in the constrained world, =
I am not sure if it applies to every situation. Typically, in constrained n=
etworks we have three types of connections: constrained device<->central (m=
anagement) server(s), constrained device<-> temporary devices (e.g. mobile =
apps) and constrained device<->constrained device. For the constrained devi=
ce<-> temporary devices (e.g. mobile apps) OAuth seems to work quite nicely=
 and probably even for constrained device<->central (management) server(s).

I would like to focus on the constrained device<->constrained device to cas=
e. In this case, we typically have permanent authorization rules that conne=
ct e.g. sensors to actuators (pushbuttons connected to lights). For such pe=
rmanent authorization rules that do not change, does it still make sense to=
 use OAuth. I would have thought that an access control list type solution =
that is managed by a central server is more suitable for this situation. I =
would like to understand from the authors exactly which type of communicati=
on is being targeted in this draft and if it is also applicable to create "=
permanent client-server authorization rules".

Abhinav
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have reviewed the draft and find that is very nice=
ly written and easy to understand. It would be nice to see this document ta=
ken further and made into an RFC.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a question regarding the usage of OAuth in co=
nstrained networks. In web architectures, OAuth is used a lot. However, in =
the constrained world, I am not sure if it applies to every situation. Typi=
cally, in constrained networks we
 have three types of connections: constrained device&lt;-&gt;central (manag=
ement) server(s), constrained device&lt;-&gt; temporary devices (e.g. mobil=
e apps) and constrained device&lt;-&gt;constrained device. For the constrai=
ned device&lt;-&gt; temporary devices (e.g. mobile apps)
 OAuth seems to work quite nicely and probably even for constrained device&=
lt;-&gt;central (management) server(s).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would like to focus on the constrained device&lt;-=
&gt;constrained device to case. In this case, we typically have permanent a=
uthorization rules that connect e.g. sensors to actuators (pushbuttons conn=
ected to lights). For such permanent authorization
 rules that do not change, does it still make sense to use OAuth. I would h=
ave thought that an access control list type solution that is managed by a =
central server is more suitable for this situation. I would like to underst=
and from the authors exactly which
 type of communication is being targeted in this draft and if it is also ap=
plicable to create &#8220;permanent client-server authorization rules&#8221=
;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Abhinav<o:p></o:p></p>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Hi Abhinav,

> I have reviewed the draft and find that is very nicely written and easy=

> to understand. It would be nice to see this document taken further and
> made into an RFC.
Thanks.

~snip~

> I would like to focus on the constrained device<->constrained device to=

> case. In this case, we typically have permanent authorization rules tha=
t
> connect e.g. sensors to actuators (pushbuttons connected to lights). Fo=
r
> such permanent authorization rules that do not change, does it still
> make sense to use OAuth. I would have thought that an access control
> list type solution that is managed by a central server is more suitable=

> for this situation. I would like to understand from the authors exactly=

> which type of communication is being targeted in this draft and if it i=
s
> also applicable to create =93permanent client-server authorization rule=
s=94.

The constrained client to constrained server case is conceptually
simpler than the other cases since the authorization step, as you noted,
already happened out-of-band (by someone).

This scenario motivated me to write this IoT credential grant, see
draft-tschofenig-oauth-iot. In response to the draft submission I got
comments that claimed I can get the same functionality already with base
OAuth, which may need to be discussed. At that time it was, however,
premature to have these detailed discussions.

Another input to take into account is a document you might well be
familiar with, namely <draft-somaraju-ace-multicast-00>. There we also
had use cases where the authorization rules were pre-provisioned into
the devices and, in addition to what you mentioned, the device may need
to operate without having an authorization server to consult in real time=
=2E

Does this make sense to you?

Ciao
Hannes


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From nobody Wed Nov 18 01:02:10 2015
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From: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
To: Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "Ace\@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:01:56 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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As Carsten already said, it is difficult to object the decision to
continue with the OAuth-based approach because that is clearly one
thing needed to do short-term (therefore, we have presented the OAuth
integration with our proposal during IETF-93 in Prague and asked for
help from OAuth experts). Now, it seems that this work starts and
needed specifications for using OAuth tokens in the constrained sphere
will be developed. This is a good thing, and I really do not care
whether a required field name is taken from the OAuth sphere or from
our DCAF proposal. In the end, they will just be numeric identifiers
in CBOR where you cannot really tell the difference. So, this part of
the discussion so far was about coloring the bikeshed.

Where I object is to drop the work on the cross-domain,
multi-stakeholder scenario as this is what enabled constrained devices
to be part of a global Internet of Things. Many of those who have been
convinced to go the OAuth way currently do not see the urge to work on
this as their current use cases do not need this or their business
model could be negatively affected by first movers jumping on that
train. Now, I am very sure that both will happen, either based on IETF
standards or in the wild. Therefore, I vote for continuing work on the
cross-domain, multi-stakeholder scenario based on existing proposals,
including DCAF, because it already contains a lot of text and message
format specifications that show how this can work. We still can argue
whether the bits in the DCAF have the correct color of the day, but we
should not drop the added value that DCAF has.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe
Olaf


From nobody Wed Nov 18 02:15:05 2015
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From: Renzo Navas <renzoefra@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:14:41 +0100
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Good Morning everybody,

I do agree that we have to start focusing one one solution only, and
OAuth seems to have more momentum than DCAF, I read both drafts and
OAuth is clear and easy to understand.
I do not oppose to have OAuth-profiling as a starting point.

However I do agree with Olaf, that there are still some core issues
that are not addressed with OAuth-based solution yet but yes with
DCAF,
Notably the CAS concept is not present on the OAuth solution yet, and
CAS is an integral part of the Actors ACE document, so we will
eventually arrive to the point that we have to take CAS in account,
and then we will be doing some work DCAF is already doing.
So as Olaf say I vote also for maintaining DCAF at least for the
cross-domain CAS-needed case, and why not start merging it with the
OAuth-based solution on the points that OAuth is missing.


Saludos!

Renzo

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org> wrote:
> As Carsten already said, it is difficult to object the decision to
> continue with the OAuth-based approach because that is clearly one
> thing needed to do short-term (therefore, we have presented the OAuth
> integration with our proposal during IETF-93 in Prague and asked for
> help from OAuth experts). Now, it seems that this work starts and
> needed specifications for using OAuth tokens in the constrained sphere
> will be developed. This is a good thing, and I really do not care
> whether a required field name is taken from the OAuth sphere or from
> our DCAF proposal. In the end, they will just be numeric identifiers
> in CBOR where you cannot really tell the difference. So, this part of
> the discussion so far was about coloring the bikeshed.
>
> Where I object is to drop the work on the cross-domain,
> multi-stakeholder scenario as this is what enabled constrained devices
> to be part of a global Internet of Things. Many of those who have been
> convinced to go the OAuth way currently do not see the urge to work on
> this as their current use cases do not need this or their business
> model could be negatively affected by first movers jumping on that
> train. Now, I am very sure that both will happen, either based on IETF
> standards or in the wild. Therefore, I vote for continuing work on the
> cross-domain, multi-stakeholder scenario based on existing proposals,
> including DCAF, because it already contains a lot of text and message
> format specifications that show how this can work. We still can argue
> whether the bits in the DCAF have the correct color of the day, but we
> should not drop the added value that DCAF has.
>
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe
> Olaf
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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From: Renzo Navas <renzoefra@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:27:18 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Authenticated Key Establishment, OAut PoP Token and Time Requirements for Constrained Devices
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Hello G=C3=B6ran, thanks for your kind response,
I doubted I will get any because my mail was a bit obscure, this time
I will try to be brief.


>  The purpose of this version of the draft is to demonstrate the
> feasibility to use OAuth 2.0 with some modifications in a large variety o=
f
> constrained node deployment scenarios.

Indeed the document does achieves that. My opinion after reading it is
that OAuth is flexible and powerful, provides a desirable solution,
and can be further extended.

> Having said this I believe there are settings where a nonce based
> authenticated key establishment makes sense.

I do think so too. Restricting the RS to either to be
time-synchronized or to do always the token-introspection flow for me
it's too severe.

> You are most welcome to contribute to this work; identifying under what
> conditions such a protocol may be relevant and which information elements
> to embed in the message flow.

As you said there may be use cases/scenarios when nonce-based  pop
tokens , with differentce messages flows, will make sense.
So if other people think so too, I can try to work on that (I have
null exprience on ietf writing).


Thanks again for your response,

Renzo


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From nobody Wed Nov 18 10:13:42 2015
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Erik_Wahlstr=F6m_neXus?= <erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com>
To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Solution direction
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:13:32 +0000
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Cc: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. I=
t's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to ca=
re what type of token it is. It's just a access token.

Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to e=
stablish a context. That's another thing.

/ Erik

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:

Don't or won't we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like=
 confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?

From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@g=
mx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mai=
lto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Hi,

Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile=
 of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<htt=
ps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantar=
ainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40micros=
oft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db=
47%7c1&sdata=3DALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves thos=
e scenarios.

To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UM=
A must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for co=
re oauth.

Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 =
(RFC6749) was completed. I think that's a sound model that we should follow=
. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do t=
hat we should re-use the concepts already there.

Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the=
 same time confuses implementors. I don't think we want to do that.

/ Erik



On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.=
de>> wrote:

Hi all,

I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
from DCAF.

I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
party?

A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
security association with a less constrained device is required that can
then provide the keying material.

An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
scenario.

You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.

But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
controlled by their owners.

DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
it OAuth.

I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.

Best regards,
Steffi

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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<div>Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the wor=
ld. It's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have =
to care what type of token it is. It's just a access token.&nbsp;</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Then we have the framework on how access tok=
ens are retrieved and sent to establish a context. That's another thing.<br=
>
<br>
/ Erik</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@mic=
rosoft.com">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Don&#8217;t or won&#8217;t we already=
 have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and =
OAUTH) ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Ace [<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.=
de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.ne=
t">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;; Kathleen Mor=
iarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.mori=
arty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@ali=
baba-inc.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] Solution direction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Manag=
ed Access (UMA) Profile of OAuth 2.0 (<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.pro=
tection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantarainitiative.org%2fuma%2=
frec-uma-core.html&amp;data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c2e4a42352=
8b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&amp;sdata=3D=
ALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d">https://docs.kantarainitiat=
ive.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html</a>)
 solves those scenarios.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To make them work with constrained clients and serve=
rs, both RFC7591 and UMA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth f=
or IoT draft did for core oauth.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added=
 later on after Oauth2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that&#8217;s a soun=
d model that we should follow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them=
 when needed and when we do that we should
 re-use the concepts already there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth =
for IoT, running at the same time confuses implementors. I don&#8217;t thin=
k we want to do that.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/ Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable<br>
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily<br>
from DCAF.<br>
<br>
I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in<br=
>
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device<br>
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained<br>
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by<br>
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other<br>
party?<br>
<br>
A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as<br>
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used<br>
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It<br=
>
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a<br>
security association with a less constrained device is required that can<br=
>
then provide the keying material.<br>
<br>
An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained<br>
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association<br>
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario<br=
>
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a<br>
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might<br=
>
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to<br>
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication<br=
>
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this<br>
scenario.<br>
<br>
You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and<br>
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another<br>
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important<br>
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem<br>
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and<br>
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will<br>
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have<br>
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.<br>
<br>
But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the<br>
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices<br>
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often<br=
>
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers<br>
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of<br>
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to<br>
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be<br>
controlled by their owners.<br>
<br>
DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as<br>
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.<br>
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is<br>
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is<br=
>
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call<br>
it OAuth.<br>
<br>
I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in<br>
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Steffi<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/ace</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only=
 deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions

From: Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>
Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>; Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@g=
mx.net>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>; Kathleen Moriarty <ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>; Ac=
e@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. I=
t's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to ca=
re what type of token it is. It's just a access token.

Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to e=
stablish a context. That's another thing.

/ Erik

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Don't or won't we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like=
 confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?

From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@g=
mx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mai=
lto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Hi,

Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile=
 of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<htt=
ps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantar=
ainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40micros=
oft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db=
47%7c1&sdata=3DALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves thos=
e scenarios.

To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UM=
A must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for co=
re oauth.

Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 =
(RFC6749) was completed. I think that's a sound model that we should follow=
. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do t=
hat we should re-use the concepts already there.

Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the=
 same time confuses implementors. I don't think we want to do that.

/ Erik



On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.=
de>> wrote:

Hi all,

I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
from DCAF.

I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
party?

A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
security association with a less constrained device is required that can
then provide the keying material.

An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
scenario.

You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.

But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
controlled by their owners.

DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
it OAuth.

I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.

Best regards,
Steffi

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Its more than that as we have to deal=
 with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only deals with JSON in the various profi=
les/extensions
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto=
:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anthony Nadalin &lt;tonynad@microsoft.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefanie Gerdes &lt;gerdes@tzi.de&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;han=
nes.tschofenig@gmx.net&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&g=
t;; Kathleen Moriarty &lt;kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com&gt;; Kepeng Li &=
lt;kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com&gt;; Ace@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] Solution direction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE doe=
s not mean the world. It's just a token format (both will exist). A client =
don't really have to care what type of token it is. It's just a access toke=
n.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then we have the framework on how access tokens are =
retrieved and sent to establish a context. That's another thing.<br>
<br>
/ Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@mic=
rosoft.com">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Don&#8217;t or won&#8217;t we already=
 have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and =
OAUTH) ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Ace [<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.=
de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.ne=
t">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;; Kathleen Mor=
iarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.mori=
arty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@ali=
baba-inc.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] Solution direction</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Manag=
ed Access (UMA) Profile of OAuth 2.0 (<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.pro=
tection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantarainitiative.org%2fuma%2=
frec-uma-core.html&amp;data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c2e4a42352=
8b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&amp;sdata=3D=
ALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d">https://docs.kantarainitiat=
ive.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html</a>)
 solves those scenarios.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To make them work with constrained clients and serve=
rs, both RFC7591 and UMA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth f=
or IoT draft did for core oauth.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added=
 later on after Oauth2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that&#8217;s a soun=
d model that we should follow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them=
 when needed and when we do that we should
 re-use the concepts already there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth =
for IoT, running at the same time confuses implementors. I don&#8217;t thin=
k we want to do that.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/ Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable<br>
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily<br>
from DCAF.<br>
<br>
I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in<br=
>
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device<br>
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained<br>
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by<br>
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other<br>
party?<br>
<br>
A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as<br>
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used<br>
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It<br=
>
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a<br>
security association with a less constrained device is required that can<br=
>
then provide the keying material.<br>
<br>
An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained<br>
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association<br>
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario<br=
>
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a<br>
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might<br=
>
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to<br>
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication<br=
>
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this<br>
scenario.<br>
<br>
You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and<br>
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another<br>
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important<br>
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem<br>
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and<br>
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will<br>
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have<br>
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.<br>
<br>
But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the<br>
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices<br>
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often<br=
>
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers<br>
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of<br>
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to<br>
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be<br>
controlled by their owners.<br>
<br>
DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as<br>
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.<br>
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is<br>
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is<br=
>
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call<br>
it OAuth.<br>
<br>
I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in<br>
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Steffi<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
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011db47%7c1&amp;sdata=3DfUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeEDGYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, especia=
lly for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very lon=
g way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the draf=
t).

Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something mor=
e compact.

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:

Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only=
 deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions

From: Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofeni=
g <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Fa=
rrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathle=
en Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf=
@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@aliba=
ba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. I=
t's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to ca=
re what type of token it is. It's just a access token.

Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to e=
stablish a context. That's another thing.

/ Erik

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Don=92t or won=92t we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much =
like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?

From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@g=
mx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mai=
lto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Hi,

Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile=
 of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<htt=
ps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantar=
ainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40micros=
oft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db=
47%7c1&sdata=3DALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves thos=
e scenarios.

To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UM=
A must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for co=
re oauth.

Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 =
(RFC6749) was completed. I think that=92s a sound model that we should foll=
ow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do=
 that we should re-use the concepts already there.

Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the=
 same time confuses implementors. I don=92t think we want to do that.

/ Erik



On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.=
de>> wrote:

Hi all,

I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
from DCAF.

I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
party?

A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
security association with a less constrained device is required that can
then provide the keying material.

An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
scenario.

You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.

But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
controlled by their owners.

DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
it OAuth.

I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.

Best regards,
Steffi

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<https://na01.safelinks.protection=
.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2face&d=
ata=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc00%=
7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3DfUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeE=
DGYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d>


--_000_0F619216DE67464090AD3D0CAC4F80B0nexusgroupcom_
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
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<body dir=3D"auto">
<div>Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, es=
pecially for class 2 devices.
<span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">In our tests we d=
id see that JWT got us a very long way. Especially if we just have to send =
token once (according to the draft).&nbsp;</span></div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Then we have the super constrained class 1 d=
evices. They need something more compact.&nbsp;</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@mic=
rosoft.com">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Its more than that as we have to deal=
 with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only deals with JSON in the various profi=
les/extensions
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com">mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup=
.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com">ton=
ynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.=
de</a>&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.n=
et">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;;
 Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">=
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:k=
epeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] Solution direction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE doe=
s not mean the world. It's just a token format (both will exist). A client =
don't really have to care what type of token it is. It's just a access toke=
n.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then we have the framework on how access tokens are =
retrieved and sent to establish a context. That's another thing.<br>
<br>
/ Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@mic=
rosoft.com">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Don=92t or won=92t we already have th=
at confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Ace [<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.=
de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.ne=
t">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;; Kathleen Mor=
iarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.mori=
arty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@ali=
baba-inc.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] Solution direction</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Manag=
ed Access (UMA) Profile of OAuth 2.0 (<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.pro=
tection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantarainitiative.org%2fuma%2=
frec-uma-core.html&amp;data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c2e4a42352=
8b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&amp;sdata=3D=
ALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d">https://docs.kantarainitiat=
ive.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html</a>)
 solves those scenarios.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To make them work with constrained clients and serve=
rs, both RFC7591 and UMA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth f=
or IoT draft did for core oauth.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added=
 later on after Oauth2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that=92s a sound mo=
del that we should follow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them whe=
n needed and when we do that we should
 re-use the concepts already there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth =
for IoT, running at the same time confuses implementors. I don=92t think we=
 want to do that.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/ Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable<br>
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily<br>
from DCAF.<br>
<br>
I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in<br=
>
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device<br>
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained<br>
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by<br>
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other<br>
party?<br>
<br>
A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as<br>
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used<br>
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It<br=
>
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a<br>
security association with a less constrained device is required that can<br=
>
then provide the keying material.<br>
<br>
An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained<br>
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association<br>
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario<br=
>
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a<br>
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might<br=
>
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to<br>
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication<br=
>
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this<br>
scenario.<br>
<br>
You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and<br>
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another<br>
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important<br>
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem<br>
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and<br>
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will<br>
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have<br>
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.<br>
<br>
But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the<br>
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices<br>
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often<br=
>
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers<br>
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of<br>
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to<br>
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be<br>
controlled by their owners.<br>
<br>
DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as<br>
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.<br>
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is<br>
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is<br=
>
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call<br>
it OAuth.<br>
<br>
I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in<br>
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Steffi<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f=
%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2face&amp;data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40m=
icrosoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc00%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd=
011db47%7c1&amp;sdata=3DfUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeEDGYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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From: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Erik_Wahlstr=F6m_neXus?= <erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Solution direction
Thread-Index: AQHRFTDg9A/8PVwLBkmphhXbn6Mnd56gBGOAgAGxGoCAAG/xoIAACdoAgAAAreCAAARUgIAABrBQ
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/J_MqdxrY9IWBw8L_z5pp-Wplx84>
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Makes more sense to have a solution that uses Oauth and JSON/JOSE and a DCA=
F solution that uses CBOR/COSE instead of mixing all the combinations as th=
at will be a nightmare

From: Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM
To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>
Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>; Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@g=
mx.net>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>; Kathleen Moriarty <ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>; Ac=
e@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, especia=
lly for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very lon=
g way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the draf=
t).

Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something mor=
e compact.

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only=
 deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions

From: Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofeni=
g <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Fa=
rrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathle=
en Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf=
@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@aliba=
ba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. I=
t's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to ca=
re what type of token it is. It's just a access token.

Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to e=
stablish a context. That's another thing.

/ Erik

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Don't or won't we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like=
 confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?

From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@g=
mx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mai=
lto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Hi,

Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile=
 of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<htt=
ps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantar=
ainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40micros=
oft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db=
47%7c1&sdata=3DALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves thos=
e scenarios.

To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UM=
A must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for co=
re oauth.

Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 =
(RFC6749) was completed. I think that's a sound model that we should follow=
. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do t=
hat we should re-use the concepts already there.

Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the=
 same time confuses implementors. I don't think we want to do that.

/ Erik



On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.=
de>> wrote:

Hi all,

I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
from DCAF.

I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
party?

A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
security association with a less constrained device is required that can
then provide the keying material.

An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
scenario.

You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.

But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
controlled by their owners.

DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
it OAuth.

I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.

Best regards,
Steffi

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Makes more sense to have a solution t=
hat uses Oauth and JSON/JOSE and a DCAF solution that uses CBOR/COSE instea=
d of mixing all the combinations as that will
 be a nightmare <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto=
:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anthony Nadalin &lt;tonynad@microsoft.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefanie Gerdes &lt;gerdes@tzi.de&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;han=
nes.tschofenig@gmx.net&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&g=
t;; Kathleen Moriarty &lt;kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com&gt;; Kepeng Li &=
lt;kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com&gt;; Ace@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] Solution direction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be=
 heavenly used, especially for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see tha=
t JWT got us a very long way. Especially if we just have to send token once=
 (according to the draft).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. =
They need something more compact.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@mic=
rosoft.com">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Its more than that as we have to deal=
 with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only deals with JSON in the various profi=
les/extensions
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com">mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup=
.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com">ton=
ynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.=
de</a>&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.n=
et">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;;
 Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">=
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:k=
epeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] Solution direction</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE doe=
s not mean the world. It's just a token format (both will exist). A client =
don't really have to care what type of token it is. It's just a access toke=
n.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then we have the framework on how access tokens are =
retrieved and sent to establish a context. That's another thing.<br>
<br>
/ Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@mic=
rosoft.com">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Don&#8217;t or won&#8217;t we already=
 have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and =
OAUTH) ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Ace [<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.=
de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.ne=
t">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;; Kathleen Mor=
iarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.mori=
arty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@ali=
baba-inc.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] Solution direction</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Manag=
ed Access (UMA) Profile of OAuth 2.0 (<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.pro=
tection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantarainitiative.org%2fuma%2=
frec-uma-core.html&amp;data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c2e4a42352=
8b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&amp;sdata=3D=
ALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d">https://docs.kantarainitiat=
ive.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html</a>)
 solves those scenarios.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To make them work with constrained clients and serve=
rs, both RFC7591 and UMA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth f=
or IoT draft did for core oauth.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added=
 later on after Oauth2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that&#8217;s a soun=
d model that we should follow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them=
 when needed and when we do that we should
 re-use the concepts already there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth =
for IoT, running at the same time confuses implementors. I don&#8217;t thin=
k we want to do that.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/ Erik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de">gerdes@tzi.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable<br>
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily<br>
from DCAF.<br>
<br>
I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in<br=
>
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device<br>
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained<br>
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by<br>
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other<br>
party?<br>
<br>
A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as<br>
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used<br>
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It<br=
>
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a<br>
security association with a less constrained device is required that can<br=
>
then provide the keying material.<br>
<br>
An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained<br>
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association<br>
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario<br=
>
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a<br>
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might<br=
>
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to<br>
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication<br=
>
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this<br>
scenario.<br>
<br>
You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and<br>
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another<br>
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important<br>
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem<br>
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and<br>
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will<br>
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have<br>
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.<br>
<br>
But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the<br>
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices<br>
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often<br=
>
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers<br>
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of<br>
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to<br>
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be<br>
controlled by their owners.<br>
<br>
DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as<br>
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.<br>
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is<br>
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is<br=
>
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call<br>
it OAuth.<br>
<br>
I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in<br>
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Steffi<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f=
%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2face&amp;data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40m=
icrosoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc00%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd=
011db47%7c1&amp;sdata=3DfUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeEDGYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Thread-Topic: [Ace] Solution direction
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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If the constrained world and the non-constrained world would exists in two =
different parallell worlds that would make sense. But it=92s not. It=92s a =
continuum where both big and small devices will talk to each other. I will =
have a phone that talks standard oauth2 flows to get a token from an author=
ization server and it=92s later used against a constrained device using coa=
p and vice versa.

I would be fine if we only could get by with a JWT, but I don=92t think so.=
 Please prove me wrong :)

/ Erik


On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:57, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:

Makes more sense to have a solution that uses Oauth and JSON/JOSE and a DCA=
F solution that uses CBOR/COSE instead of mixing all the combinations as th=
at will be a nightmare

From: Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM
To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofeni=
g <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Fa=
rrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathle=
en Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf=
@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@aliba=
ba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, especia=
lly for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very lon=
g way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the draf=
t).

Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something mor=
e compact.

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only=
 deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions

From: Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofeni=
g <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Fa=
rrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathle=
en Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf=
@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@aliba=
ba-inc.com>>;Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. I=
t's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to ca=
re what type of token it is. It's just a access token.

Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to e=
stablish a context. That's another thing.

/ Erik

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:ton=
ynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Don=92t or won=92t we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much =
like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?

From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@g=
mx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell=
@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mai=
lto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction

Hi,

Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile=
 of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<htt=
ps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantar=
ainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40micros=
oft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db=
47%7c1&sdata=3DALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves thos=
e scenarios.

To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UM=
A must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for co=
re oauth.

Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 =
(RFC6749) was completed. I think that=92s a sound model that we should foll=
ow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do=
 that we should re-use the concepts already there.

Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the=
 same time confuses implementors. I don=92t think we want to do that.

/ Erik



On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.=
de>> wrote:

Hi all,

I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
from DCAF.

I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
party?

A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
security association with a less constrained device is required that can
then provide the keying material.

An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
scenario.

You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.

But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
controlled by their owners.

DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
it OAuth.

I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.

Best regards,
Steffi

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<https://na01.safelinks.protection=
.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2face&d=
ata=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc00%=
7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3DfUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeE=
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
If the constrained world and the non-constrained world would exists in two =
different parallell worlds that would make sense. But it=92s not. It=92s a =
continuum where both big and small devices will talk to each other. I will =
have a phone that talks standard oauth2
 flows to get a token from an authorization server and it=92s later used ag=
ainst a constrained device using coap and vice versa.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I would be fine if we only could get by with a JWT, but I d=
on=92t think so. Please prove me wrong :)</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">/ Erik</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:57, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:tonynad@microsoft.com" class=3D"">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: Helve=
tica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weigh=
t: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text=
-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;=
 widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Makes more sense to have a solution that uses O=
auth and JSON/JOSE and a DCAF solution that uses CBOR/COSE instead of mixin=
g all the combinations as that will
 be a nightmare<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<a name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</=
span></a></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225=
, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span>Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [<a href=3D"mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusg=
roup.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">m=
ailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>W=
ednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ant=
hony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: p=
urple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt=
;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ste=
fanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de" style=3D"color: purple; t=
ext-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gerdes@tzi.de</a>&gt;; Hannes Tschof=
enig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" style=3D"color: purpl=
e; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt=
;;
 Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" style=3D"=
color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">stephen.farrell@cs.t=
cd.ie</a>&gt;; Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ie=
tf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com" style=3D"color=
: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.co=
m</a>&gt;;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:Ace@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" clas=
s=3D"">Ace@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [Ace] Solution direction<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, especia=
lly for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very lon=
g way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the draf=
t).&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something mor=
e compact.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Sent from my iPhone<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
<br class=3D"">
On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@mic=
rosoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""=
>tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON=
 and CBOR, so far OAUTH only deals with JSON in the various profiles/extens=
ions</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225=
, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span>Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [<a href=3D"mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusg=
roup.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">m=
ailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>W=
ednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ant=
hony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: p=
urple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt=
;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ste=
fanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de" style=3D"color: purple; t=
ext-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gerdes@tzi.de</a>&gt;; Hannes Tschof=
enig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" style=3D"color: purpl=
e; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt=
;;
 Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" style=3D"=
color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">stephen.farrell@cs.t=
cd.ie</a>&gt;; Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ie=
tf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D=
"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com" style=3D"color=
: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.co=
m</a>&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-deco=
ration: underline;" class=3D"">Ace@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [Ace] Solution direction</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. I=
t's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to ca=
re what type of token it is. It's just a access token.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""=
></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to e=
stablish a context. That's another thing.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
/ Erik<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Sent from my iPhone<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
<br class=3D"">
On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonynad@mic=
rosoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""=
>tonynad@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Don=92t or won=92t we already have that confusi=
on with COSE and JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?</span><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225=
, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span>Ace [<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: pu=
rple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On
 Behalf Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Erik Wahls=
tr=F6m neXus<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>W=
ednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ste=
fanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.de" style=3D"color: purple; t=
ext-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gerdes@tzi.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Han=
nes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" style=3D"co=
lor: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.=
net</a>&gt;; Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.i=
e" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">stephen.=
farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;;
 Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">kathleen.mo=
riarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@a=
libaba-inc.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=
=3D"">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com</a>&gt;;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; te=
xt-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Ace@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [Ace] Solution direction</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Hi,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p=
></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile=
 of OAuth 2.0 (<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?ur=
l=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantarainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&amp;=
data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896=
%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&amp;sdata=3DALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5=
s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline=
;" class=3D"">https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html</a>)
 solves those scenarios.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UM=
A must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for co=
re oauth.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 =
(RFC6749) was completed. I think that=92s a sound model that we should foll=
ow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do=
 that we should re-use the concepts
 already there.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the=
 same time confuses implementors. I don=92t think we want to do that.<o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
/ Erik<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerdes@tzi.=
de" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gerdes@=
tzi.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">
Hi all,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable<br =
class=3D"">
concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily<br =
class=3D"">
from DCAF.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in<br=
 class=3D"">
Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device<br cl=
ass=3D"">
will not be able to fully support communication between constrained<br clas=
s=3D"">
nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by<br clas=
s=3D"">
other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other<br =
class=3D"">
party?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as<br c=
lass=3D"">
easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used<br cl=
ass=3D"">
for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It<br=
 class=3D"">
can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a<br class=
=3D"">
security association with a less constrained device is required that can<br=
 class=3D"">
then provide the keying material.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained<br clas=
s=3D"">
devices, but the constrained device must have a security association<br cla=
ss=3D"">
with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario<br=
 class=3D"">
where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a<br cl=
ass=3D"">
security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might<br=
 class=3D"">
be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to<br =
class=3D"">
one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication<br=
 class=3D"">
impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this<br clas=
s=3D"">
scenario.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and<br class=
=3D"">
therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another<br class=3D"">
terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important<br =
class=3D"">
thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem<br cl=
ass=3D"">
will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and<br =
class=3D"">
more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will<br =
class=3D"">
need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have<br cla=
ss=3D"">
security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.<br c=
lass=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the<br clas=
s=3D"">
general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices<br c=
lass=3D"">
will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often<br=
 class=3D"">
will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers<br =
class=3D"">
which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of<br clas=
s=3D"">
Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to<br class=3D=
"">
reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be<br cla=
ss=3D"">
controlled by their owners.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as<br cl=
ass=3D"">
well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.<br c=
lass=3D"">
It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is<br clas=
s=3D"">
necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is<br=
 class=3D"">
very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call<br c=
lass=3D"">
it OAuth.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in<br c=
lass=3D"">
our toolbox) that ACE is working on.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Best regards,<br class=3D"">
Steffi<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Ace mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: un=
derline;" class=3D"">Ace@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f=
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w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_B823665ECBF04247B9ED37FA124243C5nexusgroupcom_--


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Subject: Re: [Ace] Authenticated Key Establishment, OAut PoP Token and Time Requirements for Constrained Devices
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Hi Renzo:

I agree with you that if we consider the distribution of a symmetric key =
between three parties the literature is full of very concise and =
security proven protocols.=20

Please count on me if some help is required in this area.

Best Regards.=20


> El 13 nov 2015, a las 17:30, Renzo Navas <renzoefra@gmail.com> =
escribi=C3=B3:
>=20
> Good Evening ACE ML,
>=20
> Reading draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00 (thanks to the authors for easy
> to read doc) I was very interested by the PoP token that offers an
> authenticated fresh key to be used for further secure the comm.,
> but I saw a very strong requirement for the RS to have a Time Sync. =
mechanism.
> I preview the objective of my mail,  is to raise the question:
>=20
> * Do we want to have a strong requirement for the constrained device
> (RS) on an AA Architecture to have a Time Synchronization mechanism?
> * Are we interested on offering non-time -nonce- based solution for an
> OAuth PoP Token approach (for example when the token does not expire)?
>=20
>=20
> (those interested on those concerns can read the rest of the mail,
> that is rather long)
>=20
> Regards
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> (Long version)
>=20
> I've been working lately on the Authenticated Key Establishment
> problem (The are two very good reference books [1][2]), focusing on
> solutions with a Trusted Third Party, Symmetric Crypto, and not using
> Time-stamps but Nonces (To avoid having to deal with time
> synchronization).I have no strong Crypto background.
>=20
> First I want to thank the authors of draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00 ,
> very enlightening for the oauth neophytes.
> I'm mostly interested on the authentication problem (auth. key
> establishment), so the Proof-of-Possesion Token is a great
> tool/concept, I took the time to read
> draft-ietf-oauth-pop-architecture-05 and
> draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution-02 to try to have all the
> background possible.
>=20
> So from the Authenticated key establishment mechanism point of view a
> new fresh key between C and RS obtained by means of a  PoP Token
> mechanism -I think- will be similar to a  Denning-Sacco shared key
> protocol ( =
http://www.lsv.ens-cachan.fr/Software/spore/denningSacco.html
> . Client is A, AS is S, and RS is B), with the difference that the PoP
> Token Timestamp have a start and end value that will make the
> "mutiplicity attack" of Denning-Sacco limited on time.
>=20
> My concern is that we will always need Time sync on the RS, that some
> (most) times will be the constrained node (I think that the Client
> does not need to be Time-aware), is that a MUST requirement? So
> no-time aware devices will not be able to use OAuth PoP Token (or will
> have to use token introspection, a good fallback solution btw)
>=20
> Will be of interest offering a PoP Token generation and transport
> mechanisms that  offers an authenticated fresh key without the need of
> Time-awarenness at the RS?
>=20
> Time awareness at the RS offers great advantages, and maybe also Time
> is always needed in all authorization solutions (to make easy token
> expiration and freshness claims).
>=20
> But I'm thinking about nonce-based authenticated key establishment. Of
> course without time information embedded on the token, token
> expiration will be more difficult:
> * we will need token introspection, or
> * the AS will contact the RS to revoke tokens, or
> * we will need on a non-time based solution for revocation that does
> not involve the AS, for example: a pop token/key is valid for use only
> for one (or N) Resource Requests (of course if the response message
> get lost we are screwed...)
>=20
>=20
> So maybe we cannot avoid to have Time-awareness at the RS, for
> Authorization purposes..
> But for Authentication certainly we can avoid Time, the three most
> recommended by [2] nonce-based protocols are:
> * Bellare-Rogaway (3PKD) [a Choo modified version It has been proven
> provably secure on the strongest model to test auth. key establishment
> protocols ] [3]
> * Yahalom [a modified version has been proven secure on a weaker model
> -bellare rogway- than 3PKD] [4]
> * Boyd [Key Agreement: RS, C and AS contribute inputs to generate the
> key] [proof idem yahalom ][5]
>=20
> The message flows on that three of protocols do not respect OAuth
> flows (I attach an image with the high level message flows, A is the
> initiator always), so that take us apart a bit from OAuth...
>=20
> This mail is starting to get long so I will try to conclude it, but
> hopefully raise the question:
>=20
>=20
> ** Are we interested on offering non-time -nonce- based solution for
> an OAuth PoP Token approach (for example when the token does not
> expire)**?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If NO, I guess that will need token introspection for RS that cannot
> support time (That mechanism will map to other authenticated key
> establishment protocol and not Denning-Sacco-based )
>=20
> if YES, are we interested in adapting a nonce-based auth. key
> establishment protocol to OAuth PoP Token?
>=20
>=20
> I hope this questions are useful,
>=20
> Best regards
>=20
> Renzo
>=20
>=20
>=20
> [1] Colin A. Boyd and Anish Mathuria. 2003. Protocols for Key
> Establishment and Authentication. Springer-Verlag New York, Inc.,
> Secaucus, NJ, USA.
> [2] Kim-Kwang Raymond Choo. 2008. Secure Key Establishment (1ed.).
> Springer Publishing Company, Incorporated.
>=20
> [3] 3PKD - =
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/1230/1/ACISP_Full_Version_-_03_May_2005.pdf
> [4] Yahalom - https://eprint.iacr.org/2007/188.pdf
> [5] Boyd - http://eprints.qut.edu.au/4421/1/4421_1.pdf
> =
<Auth-Key-Establishmen-MsgFlows.png>______________________________________=
_________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

-------------------------------------------------------
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
30100 Murcia - Spain
Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
-------------------------------------------------------





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To: Somaraju Abhinav <abhinav.somaraju@tridonic.com>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
References: <0E9A48AB39AF3547ACD28A6DE3E2906A0F1AC07D@ATBRAGMSX02.itiso.net> <564C335F.4050404@gmx.net>
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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As an add-on to my email from yesterday I thought it might be also
useful to look at the LWM2M protocol and to see whether it helps in
those scenarios. I was thinking about doing a tutorial about LWM2M to
the group for a little while already and maybe I should give it a try in
December.

Ciao
Hannes

On 11/18/2015 09:14 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Abhinav,
>=20
>> I have reviewed the draft and find that is very nicely written and eas=
y
>> to understand. It would be nice to see this document taken further and=

>> made into an RFC.
> Thanks.
>=20
> ~snip~
>=20
>> I would like to focus on the constrained device<->constrained device t=
o
>> case. In this case, we typically have permanent authorization rules th=
at
>> connect e.g. sensors to actuators (pushbuttons connected to lights). F=
or
>> such permanent authorization rules that do not change, does it still
>> make sense to use OAuth. I would have thought that an access control
>> list type solution that is managed by a central server is more suitabl=
e
>> for this situation. I would like to understand from the authors exactl=
y
>> which type of communication is being targeted in this draft and if it =
is
>> also applicable to create =93permanent client-server authorization rul=
es=94.
>=20
> The constrained client to constrained server case is conceptually
> simpler than the other cases since the authorization step, as you noted=
,
> already happened out-of-band (by someone).
>=20
> This scenario motivated me to write this IoT credential grant, see
> draft-tschofenig-oauth-iot. In response to the draft submission I got
> comments that claimed I can get the same functionality already with bas=
e
> OAuth, which may need to be discussed. At that time it was, however,
> premature to have these detailed discussions.
>=20
> Another input to take into account is a document you might well be
> familiar with, namely <draft-somaraju-ace-multicast-00>. There we also
> had use cases where the authorization rules were pre-provisioned into
> the devices and, in addition to what you mentioned, the device may need=

> to operate without having an authorization server to consult in real ti=
me.
>=20
> Does this make sense to you?
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20


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From nobody Thu Nov 19 02:06:21 2015
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Erik_Wahlstr=c3=b6m_neXus?= <erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com>, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>
References: <D25D2619.21B54%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <564AEE51.30407@tzi.de> <FF8707AB-C9FC-44AE-88DC-0FEA88FCF085@nexusgroup.com> <BN3PR0301MB12343B3062F6973BA3B52449A61C0@BN3PR0301MB1234.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <56666935-C2EE-495B-9D32-639D887870AD@nexusgroup.com> <BN3PR0301MB1234E86283CB6887B2E44ACBA61C0@BN3PR0301MB1234.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <0F619216-DE67-4640-90AD-3D0CAC4F80B0@nexusgroup.com> <BN3PR0301MB12348C0A2787AB11B59D1C85A61C0@BN3PR0301MB1234.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <B823665E-CBF0-4247-B9ED-37FA124243C5@nexusgroup.com>
From: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:03:59 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Hi Erik,

Fortunately, DCAF works with constrained AND less-constrained devices,
so we will not have "parallel worlds" if we use it.

Steffi

On 11/18/2015 08:08 PM, Erik Wahlström neXus wrote:
> If the constrained world and the non-constrained world would exists in two different parallell worlds that would make sense. But it’s not. It’s a continuum where both big and small devices will talk to each other. I will have a phone that talks standard oauth2 flows to get a token from an authorization server and it’s later used against a constrained device using coap and vice versa.
> 
> I would be fine if we only could get by with a JWT, but I don’t think so. Please prove me wrong :)
> 
> / Erik
> 
> 
> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:57, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> 
> Makes more sense to have a solution that uses Oauth and JSON/JOSE and a DCAF solution that uses CBOR/COSE instead of mixing all the combinations as that will be a nightmare
> 
> From: Erik Wahlström neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM
> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
> 
> Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, especially for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very long way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the draft).
> 
> Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something more compact.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions
> 
> From: Erik Wahlström neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>;Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
> 
> Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. It's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to care what type of token it is. It's just a access token.
> 
> Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to establish a context. That's another thing.
> 
> / Erik
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> Don’t or won’t we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?
> 
> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlström neXus
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
> To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
> Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantarainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves those scenarios.
> 
> To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UMA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for core oauth.
> 
> Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that’s a sound model that we should follow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do that we should re-use the concepts already there.
> 
> Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the same time confuses implementors. I don’t think we want to do that.
> 
> / Erik
> 
> 
> 
> On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
> concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
> from DCAF.
> 
> I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
> Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
> will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
> nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
> other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
> party?
> 
> A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
> easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
> for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
> can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
> security association with a less constrained device is required that can
> then provide the keying material.
> 
> An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
> devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
> with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
> where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
> security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
> be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
> one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
> impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
> scenario.
> 
> You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
> therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
> terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
> thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
> will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
> more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
> need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
> security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.
> 
> But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
> general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
> will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
> will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
> which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
> Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
> reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
> controlled by their owners.
> 
> DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
> well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
> It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
> necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
> very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
> it OAuth.
> 
> I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
> our toolbox) that ACE is working on.
> 
> Best regards,
> Steffi
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2face&data=01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc00%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeEDGYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> 

-- 
Stefanie Gerdes			Tel: +49 421 218 63906
TZI Universität Bremen		E-Mail: gerdes@tzi.de
Bibliothekstr. 1, MZH 5150
28359 Bremen, Germany


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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Erik_Wahlstr=F6m_neXus?= <erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com>
To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Solution direction
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Cc: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Hi Steffi,

Yes, I realise that DCAF can be profiled and used to non-constrained device=
s just as OAuth can be profiled for constrained devices. For me, it=92s mor=
e of a question of where momentum is and taking that further to target the =
continuum of both non-constrained and constrained devices (i.e. take OAuth =
to constrained devices).

/ Erik


> On 19 Nov 2015, at 11:03, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Erik,
>=20
> Fortunately, DCAF works with constrained AND less-constrained devices,
> so we will not have "parallel worlds" if we use it.
>=20
> Steffi
>=20
> On 11/18/2015 08:08 PM, Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus wrote:
>> If the constrained world and the non-constrained world would exists in t=
wo different parallell worlds that would make sense. But it=92s not. It=92s=
 a continuum where both big and small devices will talk to each other. I wi=
ll have a phone that talks standard oauth2 flows to get a token from an aut=
horization server and it=92s later used against a constrained device using =
coap and vice versa.
>>=20
>> I would be fine if we only could get by with a JWT, but I don=92t think =
so. Please prove me wrong :)
>>=20
>> / Erik
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:57, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:=
tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Makes more sense to have a solution that uses Oauth and JSON/JOSE and a =
DCAF solution that uses CBOR/COSE instead of mixing all the combinations as=
 that will be a nightmare
>>=20
>> From: Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM
>> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>=
>
>> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschof=
enig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen=
 Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kat=
hleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.i=
etf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@al=
ibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>=20
>> Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, espe=
cially for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very =
long way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the d=
raft).
>>=20
>> Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something =
more compact.
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:=
tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>> Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH o=
nly deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions
>>=20
>> From: Erik Wahlstr=F6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
>> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>=
>
>> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschof=
enig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen=
 Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kat=
hleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.i=
etf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@al=
ibaba-inc.com>>;Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>=20
>> Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world=
. It's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to=
 care what type of token it is. It's just a access token.
>>=20
>> Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent t=
o establish a context. That's another thing.
>>=20
>> / Erik
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:=
tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>> Don=92t or won=92t we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (mu=
ch like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?
>>=20
>> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlstr=F6m ne=
Xus
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
>> To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
>> Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofeni=
g@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farr=
ell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto=
:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<=
mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Prof=
ile of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<=
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kan=
tarainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40mic=
rosoft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd01=
1db47%7c1&sdata=3DALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves t=
hose scenarios.
>>=20
>> To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and=
 UMA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for=
 core oauth.
>>=20
>> Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oaut=
h2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that=92s a sound model that we should f=
ollow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we=
 do that we should re-use the concepts already there.
>>=20
>> Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at =
the same time confuses implementors. I don=92t think we want to do that.
>>=20
>> / Erik
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@t=
zi.de>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
>> concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
>> from DCAF.
>>=20
>> I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
>> Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
>> will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
>> nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
>> other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
>> party?
>>=20
>> A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
>> easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
>> for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
>> can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
>> security association with a less constrained device is required that can
>> then provide the keying material.
>>=20
>> An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
>> devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
>> with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
>> where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
>> security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
>> be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
>> one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
>> impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
>> scenario.
>>=20
>> You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
>> therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
>> terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
>> thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
>> will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
>> more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
>> need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
>> security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.
>>=20
>> But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
>> general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
>> will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
>> will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
>> which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
>> Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
>> reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
>> controlled by their owners.
>>=20
>> DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
>> well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
>> It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
>> necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
>> very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
>> it OAuth.
>>=20
>> I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
>> our toolbox) that ACE is working on.
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Steffi
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<https://na01.safelinks.protect=
ion.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fac=
e&data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc=
00%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3DfUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bL=
jeEDGYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Stefanie Gerdes			Tel: +49 421 218 63906
> TZI Universit=E4t Bremen		E-Mail: gerdes@tzi.de
> Bibliothekstr. 1, MZH 5150
> 28359 Bremen, Germany


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From: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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On 2015-11-19 10:57, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> As an add-on to my email from yesterday I thought it might be also
> useful to look at the LWM2M protocol and to see whether it helps in
> those scenarios. I was thinking about doing a tutorial about LWM2M to
> the group for a little while already and maybe I should give it a try i=
n
> December.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>

I think a LWM2M tutorial would be very helpful. Please do give it a try.

/Ludwig

--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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--------------ms070707060700010405090101--


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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Erik_Wahlstr=c3=b6m_neXus?= <erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com>, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>
References: <D25D2619.21B54%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <564AEE51.30407@tzi.de> <FF8707AB-C9FC-44AE-88DC-0FEA88FCF085@nexusgroup.com> <BN3PR0301MB12343B3062F6973BA3B52449A61C0@BN3PR0301MB1234.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <56666935-C2EE-495B-9D32-639D887870AD@nexusgroup.com> <BN3PR0301MB1234E86283CB6887B2E44ACBA61C0@BN3PR0301MB1234.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <0F619216-DE67-4640-90AD-3D0CAC4F80B0@nexusgroup.com> <BN3PR0301MB12348C0A2787AB11B59D1C85A61C0@BN3PR0301MB1234.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <B823665E-CBF0-4247-B9ED-37FA124243C5@nexusgroup.com> <564D9E8F.805@tzi.de> <291CFA30-065D-4334-90DE-671AC9AE8146@nexusgroup.com>
From: Paul Madsen <paul.madsen@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 05:50:44 -0500
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Cc: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Enterprises know & understand OAuth and many have already invested in it 
to protect their HTTP APIs

A security model for constrained devices that builds on this established 
collective knowledge & experience with OAuth (and the other specs that 
have been defined on it like Connect & UMA) is a much easier proposition 
for these enterprises as they roll-out IoT

paul

On 11/19/15 5:19 AM, Erik Wahlström neXus wrote:
> Hi Steffi,
>
> Yes, I realise that DCAF can be profiled and used to non-constrained devices just as OAuth can be profiled for constrained devices. For me, it’s more of a question of where momentum is and taking that further to target the continuum of both non-constrained and constrained devices (i.e. take OAuth to constrained devices).
>
> / Erik
>
>
>> On 19 Nov 2015, at 11:03, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Erik,
>>
>> Fortunately, DCAF works with constrained AND less-constrained devices,
>> so we will not have "parallel worlds" if we use it.
>>
>> Steffi
>>
>> On 11/18/2015 08:08 PM, Erik Wahlström neXus wrote:
>>> If the constrained world and the non-constrained world would exists in two different parallell worlds that would make sense. But it’s not. It’s a continuum where both big and small devices will talk to each other. I will have a phone that talks standard oauth2 flows to get a token from an authorization server and it’s later used against a constrained device using coap and vice versa.
>>>
>>> I would be fine if we only could get by with a JWT, but I don’t think so. Please prove me wrong :)
>>>
>>> / Erik
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:57, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Makes more sense to have a solution that uses Oauth and JSON/JOSE and a DCAF solution that uses CBOR/COSE instead of mixing all the combinations as that will be a nightmare
>>>
>>> From: Erik Wahlström neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM
>>> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
>>> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>>
>>> Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, especially for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very long way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the draft).
>>>
>>> Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something more compact.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>> Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions
>>>
>>> From: Erik Wahlström neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
>>> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
>>> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>;Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>>
>>> Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. It's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to care what type of token it is. It's just a access token.
>>>
>>> Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to establish a context. That's another thing.
>>>
>>> / Erik
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>> Don’t or won’t we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?
>>>
>>> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlström neXus
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
>>> To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
>>> Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantarainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves those scenarios.
>>>
>>> To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UMA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for core oauth.
>>>
>>> Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that’s a sound model that we should follow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do that we should re-use the concepts already there.
>>>
>>> Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the same time confuses implementors. I don’t think we want to do that.
>>>
>>> / Erik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
>>> concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
>>> from DCAF.
>>>
>>> I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
>>> Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
>>> will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
>>> nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
>>> other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
>>> party?
>>>
>>> A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
>>> easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
>>> for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
>>> can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
>>> security association with a less constrained device is required that can
>>> then provide the keying material.
>>>
>>> An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
>>> devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
>>> with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
>>> where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
>>> security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
>>> be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
>>> one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
>>> impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
>>> scenario.
>>>
>>> You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
>>> therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
>>> terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
>>> thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
>>> will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
>>> more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
>>> need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
>>> security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.
>>>
>>> But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
>>> general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
>>> will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
>>> will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
>>> which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
>>> Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
>>> reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
>>> controlled by their owners.
>>>
>>> DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
>>> well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
>>> It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
>>> necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
>>> very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
>>> it OAuth.
>>>
>>> I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
>>> our toolbox) that ACE is working on.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Steffi
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2face&data=01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc00%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeEDGYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>
>> -- 
>> Stefanie Gerdes			Tel: +49 421 218 63906
>> TZI Universität Bremen		E-Mail: gerdes@tzi.de
>> Bibliothekstr. 1, MZH 5150
>> 28359 Bremen, Germany
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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From: Somaraju Abhinav <abhinav.somaraju@tridonic.com>
To: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/E1Xt-OcuBPbEFufdoWgPvzCtV6w>
Subject: Re: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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Hi Hannes, G=F6ran,

I will try to summaries your replies and please correct me if I am wrong.:
"The constrained client to constrained server case is conceptually simpler =
than the other cases since the authorization step, as you noted, already ha=
ppened out-of-band (by someone)" and  =93permanent client-server relations =
may be viewed as a special case of the dynamic access rights."

I agree with this assessment. However, for a lot of constrained devices, th=
e only use case that is important is permanent client-server relations. So,=
 considering the proposal to use OAuth draft as the starting point for the =
ACE solutions, the questions for me are:

1) Can we judge how many use cases we have for permanent client-server rela=
tions vs temporary (dynamic) client server relationships. From how I see it=
, the permanent ones are a lot more used in practice for constrained device=
s.

2) Do we want to mandate-
Option1: the use of full OAuth (constrained profile) for every device or
Option2: will we have a method to say that a constrained server or client i=
s only going to support permanent links and not the full OAuth constrained =
profile.

3) If we choose Option 1 in Step 2, can we get an estimate of how much over=
head it is compared to Option 1. The LWM2M comparison is relevant here whic=
h is more or less option 2 with Option 1 still possible but managed via a s=
ingle central server.

Abhinav


________________________________________
From: Ace [ace-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Ludwig Seitz [ludwig@sics.se]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:32 AM
To: ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-=
ace-oauth-authz-00

On 2015-11-19 10:57, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> As an add-on to my email from yesterday I thought it might be also
> useful to look at the LWM2M protocol and to see whether it helps in
> those scenarios. I was thinking about doing a tutorial about LWM2M to
> the group for a little while already and maybe I should give it a try in
> December.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>

I think a LWM2M tutorial would be very helpful. Please do give it a try.

/Ludwig

--
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se

________________________________________________________ The contents of th=
is e-mail and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient. T=
hey may not be disclosed to or used by or copied in any way by anyone other=
 than the intended recipient. If this e-mail is received in error, please i=
mmediately notify the sender and delete the e-mail and attached documents. =
Please note that neither the sender nor the sender's company accept any res=
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check this e-mail and any attachments.


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From: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Hi Erik,

DCAF as it is already supports less-constrained devices. It also works
together with OAuth as we showed in an example in
draft-gerdes-ace-dcaf-examples [1]. If we want to, we can also transport
OAuth tickets in DCAF. We should find out which is more useful for which
use case (we may find out that there is more than one answer to that).

The discussion always seems to be whether we are doing something for the
constrained devices or if we are supporting OAuth. I think we should do
both. I don't think it is that important whether we name the result
DCAF, OAuth or UMA in the end as long as it does the right thing.

Best regards,
Steffi

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerdes-ace-dcaf-examples-00

On 11/19/2015 11:19 AM, Erik Wahlström neXus wrote:
> Hi Steffi,
> 
> Yes, I realise that DCAF can be profiled and used to non-constrained devices just as OAuth can be profiled for constrained devices. For me, it’s more of a question of where momentum is and taking that further to target the continuum of both non-constrained and constrained devices (i.e. take OAuth to constrained devices).
> 
> / Erik
> 
> 
>> On 19 Nov 2015, at 11:03, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Erik,
>>
>> Fortunately, DCAF works with constrained AND less-constrained devices,
>> so we will not have "parallel worlds" if we use it.
>>
>> Steffi
>>
>> On 11/18/2015 08:08 PM, Erik Wahlström neXus wrote:
>>> If the constrained world and the non-constrained world would exists in two different parallell worlds that would make sense. But it’s not. It’s a continuum where both big and small devices will talk to each other. I will have a phone that talks standard oauth2 flows to get a token from an authorization server and it’s later used against a constrained device using coap and vice versa.
>>>
>>> I would be fine if we only could get by with a JWT, but I don’t think so. Please prove me wrong :)
>>>
>>> / Erik
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:57, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Makes more sense to have a solution that uses Oauth and JSON/JOSE and a DCAF solution that uses CBOR/COSE instead of mixing all the combinations as that will be a nightmare
>>>
>>> From: Erik Wahlström neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM
>>> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
>>> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>>
>>> Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, especially for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very long way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the draft).
>>>
>>> Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something more compact.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>> Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH only deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions
>>>
>>> From: Erik Wahlström neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
>>> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>
>>> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>;Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>>
>>> Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world. It's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to care what type of token it is. It's just a access token.
>>>
>>> Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to establish a context. That's another thing.
>>>
>>> / Erik
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>> Don’t or won’t we already have that confusion with COSE and JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?
>>>
>>> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlström neXus
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
>>> To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
>>> Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profile of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantarainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves those scenarios.
>>>
>>> To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and UMA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for core oauth.
>>>
>>> Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that’s a sound model that we should follow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when we do that we should re-use the concepts already there.
>>>
>>> Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at the same time confuses implementors. I don’t think we want to do that.
>>>
>>> / Erik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
>>> concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
>>> from DCAF.
>>>
>>> I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
>>> Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
>>> will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
>>> nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
>>> other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
>>> party?
>>>
>>> A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
>>> easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
>>> for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
>>> can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
>>> security association with a less constrained device is required that can
>>> then provide the keying material.
>>>
>>> An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
>>> devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
>>> with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
>>> where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
>>> security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
>>> be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
>>> one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
>>> impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
>>> scenario.
>>>
>>> You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
>>> therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
>>> terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
>>> thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
>>> will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
>>> more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
>>> need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
>>> security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.
>>>
>>> But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
>>> general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
>>> will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
>>> will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
>>> which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
>>> Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
>>> reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
>>> controlled by their owners.
>>>
>>> DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
>>> well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
>>> It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
>>> necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
>>> very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
>>> it OAuth.
>>>
>>> I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
>>> our toolbox) that ACE is working on.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Steffi
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2face&data=01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc00%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeEDGYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Stefanie Gerdes			Tel: +49 421 218 63906
>> TZI Universität Bremen		E-Mail: gerdes@tzi.de
>> Bibliothekstr. 1, MZH 5150
>> 28359 Bremen, Germany
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Stefanie Gerdes			Tel: +49 421 218 63906
TZI Universität Bremen		E-Mail: gerdes@tzi.de
Bibliothekstr. 1, MZH 5150
28359 Bremen, Germany


From nobody Thu Nov 19 05:03:49 2015
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= <goran.selander@ericsson.com>, Renzo Navas <renzoefra@gmail.com>
References: <D25D2619.21B54%kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> <564AEE51.30407@tzi.de> <87d1v7r88r.fsf@aung.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <CAD2CPUFBLXxR826NN+paYCyYO1cNnHySk1+mCbmHOh_KGWzoFw@mail.gmail.com> <D2727F13.3E381%goran.selander@ericsson.com>
From: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:03:41 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Hi GÃ¶ran,

On 11/19/2015 09:07 AM, GÃ¶ran Selander wrote:
> Hi Renzo, 
> 
> On 2015-11-18 11:14, "Renzo Navas" <renzoefra@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> and why not start merging it with the
>> OAuth-based solution on the points that OAuth is missing.
> 
> I donâ€™t think a merge is a good idea, at least not in the sense of the
> actors draft which is a result of the different views represented by some
> of the authors behind the OAuth profile draft and some of the authors
> behind DCAF. The two latest reviews were not very positive.
> 

I don't think we should be to pessimistic. The use cases document was
hard work but turned out to be especially useful in the end. I think
that is a remarkable success.

Best regards
Steffi


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To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>
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Cc: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, =?utf-8?Q?Erik_Wahlstr=C3=B6m_neXus?= <erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Hi,

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2015, at 5:03 AM, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Erik,
>=20
> Fortunately, DCAF works with constrained AND less-constrained devices,
> so we will not have "parallel worlds" if we use it.

Is DCAF deployed?  I believe UMA is, right?  If DCAF were used, we would hav=
e "parallel worlds".

Thanks,
Kathleen=20
>=20
> Steffi
>=20
>> On 11/18/2015 08:08 PM, Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus wrote:
>> If the constrained world and the non-constrained world would exists in tw=
o different parallell worlds that would make sense. But it=E2=80=99s not. It=
=E2=80=99s a continuum where both big and small devices will talk to each ot=
her. I will have a phone that talks standard oauth2 flows to get a token fro=
m an authorization server and it=E2=80=99s later used against a constrained d=
evice using coap and vice versa.
>>=20
>> I would be fine if we only could get by with a JWT, but I don=E2=80=99t t=
hink so. Please prove me wrong :)
>>=20
>> / Erik
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:57, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:t=
onynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Makes more sense to have a solution that uses Oauth and JSON/JOSE and a D=
CAF solution that uses CBOR/COSE instead of mixing all the combinations as t=
hat will be a nightmare
>>=20
>> From: Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:31 AM
>> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>=

>> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofe=
nig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Fa=
rrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathlee=
n Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@g=
mail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-=
inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>=20
>> Yes. Json will still be a key format. And it will be heavenly used, espec=
ially for class 2 devices. In our tests we did see that JWT got us a very lo=
ng way. Especially if we just have to send token once (according to the draf=
t).
>>=20
>> Then we have the super constrained class 1 devices. They need something m=
ore compact.
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 19:17, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:t=
onynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>> Its more than that as we have to deal with JSON and CBOR, so far OAUTH on=
ly deals with JSON in the various profiles/extensions
>>=20
>> From: Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m neXus [mailto:erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:14 AM
>> To: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:tonynad@microsoft.com>>=

>> Cc: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>; Hannes Tschofe=
nig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>>; Stephen Fa=
rrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathlee=
n Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@g=
mail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-=
inc.com>>;Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>=20
>> Don't think so. If it's a JWT/JOSE or a CWT/COSE does not mean the world.=
 It's just a token format (both will exist). A client don't really have to c=
are what type of token it is. It's just a access token.
>>=20
>> Then we have the framework on how access tokens are retrieved and sent to=
 establish a context. That's another thing.
>>=20
>> / Erik
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>> On 18 Nov 2015, at 18:39, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com<mailto:t=
onynad@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>> Don=E2=80=99t or won=E2=80=99t we already have that confusion with COSE a=
nd JOSE (much like confusion with DCAF and OAUTH) ?
>>=20
>> From: Ace [mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erik Wahlstr=C3=B6m n=
eXus
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:58 AM
>> To: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tzi.de>>
>> Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net<mailto:hannes.tschofenig=
@gmx.net>>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie<mailto:stephen.farrel=
l@cs.tcd.ie>>; Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>; Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com<mail=
to:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>>; Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> Dynamic client registration (RFC7591) and User-Managed Access (UMA) Profi=
le of OAuth 2.0 (https://docs.kantarainitiative.org/uma/rec-uma-core.html<ht=
tps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fdocs.kantar=
ainitiative.org%2fuma%2frec-uma-core.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microso=
ft.com%7c2e4a423528b84869171d08d2f0071896%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47=
%7c1&sdata=3DALYnNx65C18sUYQB3LgXOc5s5teOHDYv0NzqmCsubAI%3d>) solves those s=
cenarios.
>>=20
>> To make them work with constrained clients and servers, both RFC7591 and U=
MA must to be profiled in the same way as the OAuth for IoT draft did for co=
re oauth.
>>=20
>> Both dynamic client registration and UMA where added later on after Oauth=
2 (RFC6749) was completed. I think that=E2=80=99s a sound model that we shou=
ld follow. Get the core concepts down, then extend them when needed and when=
 we do that we should re-use the concepts already there.
>>=20
>> Having two different proposals, both DCAF and OAuth for IoT, running at t=
he same time confuses implementors. I don=E2=80=99t think we want to do that=
.
>>=20
>> / Erik
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:07, Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de<mailto:gerdes@tz=
i.de>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> I think we should continue working on DCAF in ACE. It provides valuable
>> concepts and mechanisms which is why many solutions in ACE draw heavily
>> from DCAF.
>>=20
>> I think one aspect did not really become clear during the ACE session in
>> Yokohama: A solution with only one supporting less constrained device
>> will not be able to fully support communication between constrained
>> nodes as DCAF does. One main question that is only partly solved by
>> other solutions is: How can a constrained client authenticate the other
>> party?
>>=20
>> A constrained device is not able to establish security associations as
>> easily as a less constrained device. The keying material that is used
>> for authorization and secure communication must securely be obtained. It
>> can either be provisioned manually to the constrained device or a
>> security association with a less constrained device is required that can
>> then provide the keying material.
>>=20
>> An Authorization Server can provide session keys to the constrained
>> devices, but the constrained device must have a security association
>> with the AS to authenticate the origin of the session key. In a scenario
>> where we have only a single AS and two constrained nodes, both need a
>> security association with that AS. For cross-domain scenarios this might
>> be difficult. We will need to manually provision the keying material to
>> one of the devices which makes the dynamic setup of secure communication
>> impossible. That's why we need two less-constrained devices in this
>> scenario.
>>=20
>> You may think that this has nothing to do with authorization and
>> therefore is not a topic for ACE. Well, it has, but another
>> terminology-discussion might not be that useful. However, the important
>> thing is that developing an additional solution to solve this problem
>> will very likely add more overhead. The result will be more complex and
>> more difficult to implement. Until such a solution is developed we will
>> need to use complex workarounds (e.g. manual provisioning), may have
>> security problems or are not able to address certain scenarios at all.
>>=20
>> But we have never done this before, why now? Because other than the
>> general purpose computers that we are using today, constrained devices
>> will communicate autonomously without the help of their user. They often
>> will not even have user interfaces. Until now this was true for servers
>> which is why existing protocols protect them. In a true Internet of
>> Things this will also be true for clients. We therefore need to
>> reconsider how clients can be protected and how their actions can be
>> controlled by their owners.
>>=20
>> DCAF supports scenarios with a single less-constrained device (AS) as
>> well as scenarios where both the Client and the Server have their own.
>> It works with OAuth and may even transport OAuth tickets if that is
>> necessary. It has a built-in key distribution mechanism and therefore is
>> very efficient. The main fault of DCAF seems to be that we didn't call
>> it OAuth.
>>=20
>> I think DCAF should be one of the building blocks (one of the tools in
>> our toolbox) that ACE is working on.
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Steffi
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org<mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<https://na01.safelinks.protecti=
on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2fwww.ietf.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2face&=
data=3D01%7c01%7ctonynad%40microsoft.com%7c7d0c39fa74cf424c073f08d2f043fc00%=
7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3DfUd%2fyWsFTYJgyL8ylrY%2bLjeED=
GYXOuEB7ikV5vKJ0M0%3d>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> --=20
> Stefanie Gerdes            Tel: +49 421 218 63906
> TZI Universit=C3=A4t Bremen        E-Mail: gerdes@tzi.de
> Bibliothekstr. 1, MZH 5150
> 28359 Bremen, Germany


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To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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From: Stefanie Gerdes <gerdes@tzi.de>
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:43:33 +0100
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Cc: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, =?UTF-8?Q?Erik_Wahlstr=c3=b6m_neXus?= <erik.wahlstrom@nexusgroup.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Hi Kathleen,

On 11/19/2015 02:36 PM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> 
> Is DCAF deployed?  I believe UMA is, right?  If DCAF were used, we would have "parallel worlds".
> 

Only if DCAF and UMA contradict each other which I believe is not true.

Best regards,
Steffi


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Hi Abhinav,

I=C2=B4m glad to here that you liked the draft.

1.
> you might be right, I would say that all answers to this would just be
more or less qualified guesses.

2.
It is slightly unclear to me what you mean but I=C2=B4ll try to explain my
understanding
* option one would be to use an optimised OAuth2 profile
* option two would be pre-provisioned keys to establish secure links
I prefer option one since it includes metadata around the keys, i.e. how
and where to use the keys and the server can connect them to an authorised
client. I think this is information that you must have in som way
independent of the solution, i.e. when you have added this to option two
you will have the same amount of metadata more or less (but also another
specification).

3.
I think that there will be no or very little overhead since from my
interpretation you would need to have som metadata around keys in option


Regarding LWM2M I think but I=C2=B4m not sure that Hannes sees that it coul=
d be
used for provisioning of the trust relationship with the AS to RS (i.e.
pushing AS key), and possible also for the provisioning of OAuth2 token and
connected key to the Client.


Best Regards
//Samuel


On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Somaraju Abhinav <
abhinav.somaraju@tridonic.com> wrote:

> Hi Hannes, G=C3=B6ran,
>
> I will try to summaries your replies and please correct me if I am wrong.=
:
> "The constrained client to constrained server case is conceptually simple=
r
> than the other cases since the authorization step, as you noted, already
> happened out-of-band (by someone)" and  =E2=80=9Cpermanent client-server =
relations
> may be viewed as a special case of the dynamic access rights."
>
> I agree with this assessment. However, for a lot of constrained devices,
> the only use case that is important is permanent client-server relations.
> So, considering the proposal to use OAuth draft as the starting point for
> the ACE solutions, the questions for me are:
>
> 1) Can we judge how many use cases we have for permanent client-server
> relations vs temporary (dynamic) client server relationships. From how I
> see it, the permanent ones are a lot more used in practice for constraine=
d
> devices.
>
> 2) Do we want to mandate-
> Option1: the use of full OAuth (constrained profile) for every device or
> Option2: will we have a method to say that a constrained server or client
> is only going to support permanent links and not the full OAuth constrain=
ed
> profile.
>
> 3) If we choose Option 1 in Step 2, can we get an estimate of how much
> overhead it is compared to Option 1. The LWM2M comparison is relevant her=
e
> which is more or less option 2 with Option 1 still possible but managed v=
ia
> a single central server.
>
> Abhinav
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Ace [ace-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Ludwig Seitz [ludwig@sics.s=
e
> ]
> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> To: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and
> draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
>
> On 2015-11-19 10:57, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> > As an add-on to my email from yesterday I thought it might be also
> > useful to look at the LWM2M protocol and to see whether it helps in
> > those scenarios. I was thinking about doing a tutorial about LWM2M to
> > the group for a little while already and maybe I should give it a try i=
n
> > December.
> >
> > Ciao
> > Hannes
> >
>
> I think a LWM2M tutorial would be very helpful. Please do give it a try.
>
> /Ludwig
>
> --
> Ludwig Seitz, PhD
> SICS Swedish ICT AB
> Ideon Science Park
> Building Beta 2
> Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17
> SE-223 70 Lund
>
> Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
> http://www.sics.se
>
> ________________________________________________________ The contents of
> this e-mail and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipien=
t.
> They may not be disclosed to or used by or copied in any way by anyone
> other than the intended recipient. If this e-mail is received in error,
> please immediately notify the sender and delete the e-mail and attached
> documents. Please note that neither the sender nor the sender's company
> accept any responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to sc=
an
> or otherwise check this e-mail and any attachments.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>

--001a11c136aa8096890524e6b451
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Abhinav,</div><div><br></div><div>I=C2=B4m glad to=
 here that you liked the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>1.</div><div>&gt; =
you might be right, I would say that all answers to this would just be more=
 or less qualified guesses.</div><div><br></div><div>2.</div><div>It is sli=
ghtly unclear to me what you mean but I=C2=B4ll try to explain my understan=
ding=C2=A0</div><div>* option one would be to use an optimised OAuth2 profi=
le</div><div>* option two would be pre-provisioned keys to establish secure=
 links</div><div>I prefer option one since it includes metadata around the =
keys, i.e. how and where to use the keys and the server can connect them to=
 an authorised client. I think this is information that you must have in so=
m way independent of the solution, i.e. when you have added this to option =
two you will have the same amount of metadata more or less (but also anothe=
r specification).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>3.</div><div>I think that =
there will be no or very little overhead since from my interpretation you w=
ould need to have som metadata around keys in option</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Regarding LWM2M I think but I=C2=B4m not sure that Hannes=
 sees that it could be used for provisioning of the trust relationship with=
 the AS to RS (i.e. pushing AS key), and possible also for the provisioning=
 of OAuth2 token and connected key to the Client.</div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>Best Regards</div><div>//Samuel</div><div><br></div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 19, 201=
5 at 1:49 PM, Somaraju Abhinav <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:abhi=
nav.somaraju@tridonic.com" target=3D"_blank">abhinav.somaraju@tridonic.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Hannes, G=C3=B6r=
an,<br>
<br>
I will try to summaries your replies and please correct me if I am wrong.:<=
br>
&quot;The constrained client to constrained server case is conceptually sim=
pler than the other cases since the authorization step, as you noted, alrea=
dy happened out-of-band (by someone)&quot; and=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cpermanent cli=
ent-server relations may be viewed as a special case of the dynamic access =
rights.&quot;<br>
<br>
I agree with this assessment. However, for a lot of constrained devices, th=
e only use case that is important is permanent client-server relations. So,=
 considering the proposal to use OAuth draft as the starting point for the =
ACE solutions, the questions for me are:<br>
<br>
1) Can we judge how many use cases we have for permanent client-server rela=
tions vs temporary (dynamic) client server relationships. From how I see it=
, the permanent ones are a lot more used in practice for constrained device=
s.<br>
<br>
2) Do we want to mandate-<br>
Option1: the use of full OAuth (constrained profile) for every device or<br=
>
Option2: will we have a method to say that a constrained server or client i=
s only going to support permanent links and not the full OAuth constrained =
profile.<br>
<br>
3) If we choose Option 1 in Step 2, can we get an estimate of how much over=
head it is compared to Option 1. The LWM2M comparison is relevant here whic=
h is more or less option 2 with Option 1 still possible but managed via a s=
ingle central server.<br>
<br>
Abhinav<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: Ace [<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org">ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
] on behalf of Ludwig Seitz [<a href=3D"mailto:ludwig@sics.se">ludwig@sics.=
se</a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:32 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-=
ace-oauth-authz-00<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On 2015-11-19 10:57, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:<br>
&gt; As an add-on to my email from yesterday I thought it might be also<br>
&gt; useful to look at the LWM2M protocol and to see whether it helps in<br=
>
&gt; those scenarios. I was thinking about doing a tutorial about LWM2M to<=
br>
&gt; the group for a little while already and maybe I should give it a try =
in<br>
&gt; December.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Ciao<br>
&gt; Hannes<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
I think a LWM2M tutorial would be very helpful. Please do give it a try.<br=
>
<br>
/Ludwig<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ludwig Seitz, PhD<br>
SICS Swedish ICT AB<br>
Ideon Science Park<br>
Building Beta 2<br>
Scheelev=C3=A4gen 17<br>
SE-223 70 Lund<br>
<br>
Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.sics.se" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://=
www.sics.se</a><br>
<br>
</div></div><span class=3D"">______________________________________________=
__________ The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are confidential=
 to the intended recipient. They may not be disclosed to or used by or copi=
ed in any way by anyone other than the intended recipient. If this e-mail i=
s received in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete the e-=
mail and attached documents. Please note that neither the sender nor the se=
nder&#39;s company accept any responsibility for viruses and it is your res=
ponsibility to scan or otherwise check this e-mail and any attachments.<br>
<br>
</span>_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c136aa8096890524e6b451--


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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:32:45 +0800
From: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
To: "Kepeng Li" <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
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> ´ËÓÊ¼þÊ¹ÓÃ MIME ¸ñÊ½¡£ÓÉÓÚÓÊ¼þÔÄ¶Á³ÌÐò²»ÄÜÊ¶±ð
´Ë¸ñÊ½£¬Òò´Ë£¬¿ÉÄÜÎÞ·¨Ê¶±ð¸ÃÓÊ¼þµÄ·Ö²¿»ò²¿·ÖÄÚÈÝ¡£

--B_3531065572_14824338
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I would like to conclude that the rough consensus is to use OAuth profile
draft as a starting point.
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/

Currently there are already several reviews in the mailing list about this
draft.

I notice that there are some concerns that some pieces (e.g. cross-domain
support) are missing in the current OAuth profile draft.

We can continue this kind of discussion in the mailing list and improve the
draft.

My recommendation is to ask the authors to make updates for the draft
according to the review comments, to have a more mature verion for the
working group to work on.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng (as ACE co-chair)

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  Li Kepeng <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
=C8=D5=C6=DA:  Monday, 2 November, 2015 1:39 pm
=D6=C1:  "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
=B3=AD=CB=CD:  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Hannes
Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Stephen Farrell
<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
=D6=F7=CC=E2:  [Ace] Solution direction

At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the
participants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a
starting point for future work of the solution charter item:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/

For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether you
accept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.

Thanks,

Kind Regards
Kepeng=20




--B_3531065572_14824338
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans-serif;"><div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;">=
I would like to conclude that the rough consensus is to use OAuth profile dr=
aft as a starting point.&nbsp;</div></div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><a=
 href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/" style=3D"=
font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans-serif;">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-=
ace-oauth-authz/</a><span style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans-serif;">&nbsp;</spa=
n></div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><span style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans=
-serif;"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;">Currently there ar=
e already several reviews in the mailing list about this draft.</div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;">I notice =
that there are some concerns that some pieces (e.g. cross-domain support) ar=
e missing in the current OAuth profile draft.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;">We can continue this =
kind of discussion in the mailing list and improve the draft.</div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;">My recommen=
dation is to ask the authors to make updates for the draft according to the =
review comments, to have a more mature verion for the working group to work =
on.</div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =
=CB=CE=CC=E5;">Thanks,</div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><br></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;">Kind Regards</div><div style=3D"font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;">Kepeng (=
as ACE co-chair)</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div st=
yle=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORD=
ER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDI=
NG-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGH=
T: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: </s=
pan> Li Kepeng &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@al=
ibaba-inc.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=C8=D5=C6=DA: </span> Monday=
, 2 November, 2015 1:39 pm<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=D6=C1: </span> "<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.o=
rg">Ace@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=B3=AD=CB=CD: </span> Kat=
hleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathlee=
n.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:han=
nes.tschofenig@gmx.net">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;, Stephen Farrell &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&=
gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=D6=F7=CC=E2: </span> [Ace] Solution direction=
<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbs=
p-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); f=
ont-size: 14px; font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5, sans-serif;"><div>At the face-to-face mee=
ting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the participants in the room deci=
ded to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a starting point for future work =
of the solution charter item:</div><div><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sei=
tz-ace-oauth-authz/</a>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>For those who weren't=
 present in the room, please let us know whether you accept or object to thi=
s decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Kind Regards</div><div>Kepeng&nbsp;</div></div></div><br></=
span></body></html>

--B_3531065572_14824338--



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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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To: Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
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Cc: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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Thank you, Kepeng.  I agree with this go forward plan as consensus in the ro=
om was very strong.  While cross-domain support may not be out of the questi=
on, let's keep this question and how to do it from preventing progress with O=
Auth.

Thank you,
Kathleen=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2015, at 6:32 AM, Kepeng Li <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:=

>=20
> I would like to conclude that the rough consensus is to use OAuth profile d=
raft as a starting point.=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/=20
>=20
> Currently there are already several reviews in the mailing list about this=
 draft.
>=20
> I notice that there are some concerns that some pieces (e.g. cross-domain s=
upport) are missing in the current OAuth profile draft.=20
>=20
> We can continue this kind of discussion in the mailing list and improve th=
e draft.
>=20
> My recommendation is to ask the authors to make updates for the draft acco=
rding to the review comments, to have a more mature verion for the working g=
roup to work on.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng (as ACE co-chair)
>=20
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Li Kepeng <kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com>
> =E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F: Monday, 2 November, 2015 1:39 pm
> =E8=87=B3: "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, H=
annes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farre=
ll@cs.tcd.ie>
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Ace] Solution direction
>=20
> At the face-to-face meeting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the part=
icipants in the room decided to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a starti=
ng point for future work of the solution charter item:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/=20
>=20
> For those who weren't present in the room, please let us know whether you a=
ccept or object to this decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-A688DAB9-A1D7-4D76-8833-D61AA0891464
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Thank you, Kepeng. &nbsp;I agree with t=
his go forward plan as consensus in the room was very strong. &nbsp;While cr=
oss-domain support may not be out of the question, let's keep this question a=
nd how to do it from preventing progress with OAuth.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Thank you,</div><div>Kathleen&nbsp;<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><=
br>On Nov 22, 2015, at 6:32 AM, Kepeng Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@a=
libaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93=
;">I would like to conclude that the rough consensus is to use OAuth profile=
 draft as a starting point.&nbsp;</div></div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=
=8B=E4=BD=93;"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oa=
uth-authz/" style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, sans-serif;">http://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/</a><span style=3D"font-f=
amily: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93=
, sans-serif;"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93=
;">Currently there are already several reviews in the mailing list about thi=
s draft.</div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;">I notice that there are some con=
cerns that some pieces (e.g. cross-domain support) are missing in the curren=
t OAuth profile draft.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=
=93;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;">We can conti=
nue this kind of discussion in the mailing list and improve the draft.</div>=
<div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><br></div><div style=3D"font=
-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;">My recommendation is to ask the authors to mak=
e updates for the draft according to the review comments, to have a more mat=
ure verion for the working group to work on.</div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93=
;">Thanks,</div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;">Kind Regards</div><div style=3D=
"font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;">Kepeng (as ACE co-chair)</div><div><br></=
div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; fon=
t-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDE=
R-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0=
in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3=
pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: </span> Li=
 Kepeng &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kepeng.lkp@alibaba-inc.com">kepeng.lkp@alibaba=
-inc.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F: </s=
pan> Monday, 2 November, 2015 1:39 pm<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=E8=
=87=B3: </span> "<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weigh=
t:bold">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: </span> Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, H=
annes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net">hannes.tsc=
hofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt;, Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farre=
ll@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weigh=
t:bold">=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: </span> [Ace] Solution direction<br></div><div><=
br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px=
; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93, sans-serif;"><div>At the face-to-face mee=
ting of the ACE working group in Yokohama, the participants in the room deci=
ded to accept the OAuth profiling draft as a starting point for future work o=
f the solution charter item:</div><div><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-se=
itz-ace-oauth-authz/</a>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>For those who weren'=
t present in the room, please let us know whether you accept or object to th=
is decision, before 17th Nov, 2015.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Kind Regards</div><div>Kepeng&nbsp;</div></div></div><br><=
/span>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-A688DAB9-A1D7-4D76-8833-D61AA0891464--


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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/4sGekm7_nMeRg7F5cVCvWReYHAk>
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ace] [ACE] Permanant client-server relations and draft-seitz-ace-oauth-authz-00
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--_000_0E9A48AB39AF3547ACD28A6DE3E2906A0F1AE185ATBRAGMSX02itis_--


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To: ace@ietf.org
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From: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig@sics.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Solution direction
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On 2015-11-22 12:32, Kepeng Li wrote:
[...]
> My recommendation is to ask the authors to make updates for the draft
> according to the review comments, to have a more mature verion for the
> working group to work on.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kind Regards
> Kepeng (as ACE co-chair)
>

We are currently working on the comments provided by Madjid, Rafa,=20
Thomas, Renzo and Abhinav.

Any further comments are most welcome.

/Ludwig

--=20
Ludwig Seitz, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB
Ideon Science Park
Building Beta 2
Scheelev=E4gen 17
SE-223 70 Lund

Phone +46(0)70-349 92 51
http://www.sics.se


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From nobody Mon Nov 23 12:44:45 2015
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To: "Ace@ietf.org" <Ace@ietf.org>
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Cc: SLemay@zebra.com
Subject: [Ace] LWM2M Tutorial -- Tuesday, 15 December 2015, 6am PST
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Hi all,

the Lightweight Machine-to-Machine (LWM2M) specification developed by
the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) was mentioned several times already and
so I thought it would be useful to have a short tutorial session. The
LWM2M specification has been around for a little while already and is
currently being updated to reflect community feedback and insight gained
during the interoperability test events.

The presentation will be given by Simon Lemay and myself.

In a discussion with Kepeng we decided to pick the Tuesday, 15 December
2015, 6am PST
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=3D2015&mon=
th=3D12&day=3D15&hour=3D14&min=3D0&sec=3D0&p1=3D1889&p2=3D33&p3=3D137

In case you are unable to attend, we will enable recording so that you
can watch the talk later.

The length of the tutorial (+discussion) will be around 1 hour.

Ciao
Hannes & Kepeng


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