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Subject: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-09.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : OSCORE profile of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments Framework
        Authors         : Francesca Palombini
                          Ludwig Seitz
                          Göran Selander
                          Martin Gunnarsson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-09.txt
	Pages           : 29
	Date            : 2020-03-02

Abstract:
   This memo specifies a profile for the Authentication and
   Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) framework.  It
   utilizes Object Security for Constrained RESTful Environments
   (OSCORE) to provide communication security, server authentication,
   and proof-of-possession for a key owned by the client and bound to an
   OAuth 2.0 access token.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Mon Mar  2 13:11:56 2020
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Hannes,

I am having a bit of an issue over the last paragraph below and I am not =
sure exactly where the boundary is supposed to be between OAuth and ACE =
anymore.  From the comments that you made during the development of the =
ACE OAuth framework, there was a big effort to try and make sure that =
the framework can be used with JSON, and with HTTP.  I have implemented =
a version of the protocol that is using both JSON and HTTP in order to =
get the necessary POP keys for my MQTT client/server pair.  =20

That said, I also am planning to be on the call next Monday.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 12:59 AM
To: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-03

Hi Cigdem,

Thanks for your quick response.

>From the text you cited regarding MQTT v5 it is not backwards compatible =
to version 3.1.1. The exact impact of working between two devices of =
different versions has not been described in the spec either. The follow =
sentence in your introduction can easily give readers the impression =
that the two versions are backwards compatible. Here is the sentence:

" It is expected that MQTT
   deployments will retain backward compatibility for MQTT v3.1.1
   clients, and therefore, this document also describes a reduced set of
   protocol interactions for MQTT v3.1.1 - the OASIS Standard
   [MQTT-OASIS-Standard].
"

Maybe you want to change the wording a little bit.  I think the reason =
why you want to describe a solution for v3.1.1 is that this is the =
widely deployed version.

Regarding the broker term: It is probably a matter of taste but I would =
refer to the terms used in the spec and would not replicate the =
terminology from the OASIS MQTT specs in the draft. Someone who =
implements the draft will have to become familiar with MQTT anyway. But =
that=E2=80=99s just me. For example, I often see people using the term =
=E2=80=9Ccertificate authorities (CA)=E2=80=9D in their write-ups. RFC =
5280 defines and uses the term =E2=80=9Ccertification authority (CA)". =
While the two sound and look similar only one is actually correct.

I noticed you have put a normative dependency on =
[I-D.palombini-ace-coap-pubsub-profile]. I don't think it is necessary =
because it is not a requirement to implement the spec. You could use it =
on top of it -- or you could use something else as well. I would move it =
to the informative part. The added benefit of doing that is that you do =
not block your spec till that draft becomes RFC. On the other hand, RFC =
6749, RFC 7800, and I-D.ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession cannot be =
informative references when you use PoP tokens in your solution.

You might be interesting to hear that there is currently no way to =
obtain the keys for a PoP token over HTTP, which your solution requires. =
The virtual interim meeting in the OAuth group should probably be of =
interest to you.

Ciao
Hannes

From: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 3:10 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-03

Hello Hannes,

We used  broker as it is a widely accepted term in the MQTT Community =
for "server" e.g., majority of the provider would list also a broker =
implementation to refer to their server implementation.

With respect to whether 3.1,1 clients talking to v5, there may be some =
issues. This is what the spec says:

Non-normative Comment
If the Server distributes Application Messages to Clients at different =
protocol levels (such as MQTT V3.1.1) which do not support properties or =
other features provided by this specification, some information in the =
Application Message can be lost, and applications which depend on this =
information might not work correctly.

The spec also defines a protocol version error message:
If the [Client's] Protocol Version [in the CONNECT packet] is not 5 and =
the Server does not want to accept the CONNECT packet, the Server MAY =
send a CONNACK packet with Reason Code 0x84 (Unsupported Protocol =
Version) and then MUST close the Network Connection

So, whether a broker provides dual support would depend on the provider. =
E.g., the Mosquitto broker supports the different protocol versions.

Thanks,
--Cigdem

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:01 AM Hannes Tschofenig =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
Hi Cigdem, Hi Anthony, Hi Paul,

Why are you using the term MQTT broker? My understanding of the MQTT =
spec is that there are only clients and servers - nothing more.

Is a MQTT v3.1.1 client able to talk to a MQTT v5 server? Would a MQTT =
v3.1.1 client talk to a MQTT v5 client via a server that supports both =
v3.1.1 and v5?

Ciao
Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
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From nobody Wed Mar  4 10:41:12 2020
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Hi RATS enthusiasts,
hi ACE,
hi CBOR,

in the RATS WG we had a lot of discussions about the nature of an Entity 
Attestation Token (EAT):

 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/

 > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/

A bit of (hopefully useful) context: an EAT is one way to convey 
believable evidence from an Attester (a role residing on a device-like 
entity) to a Verifier (another role defined by RATS - the appraiser of 
evidence). All that is done to provide a Relying Party with "simple 
enough" attestation results generated by the Verifier to enable Relying 
Parties (in general, the remote peer) to make an informed decision about 
whether to put trust in the trustworthiness of that Attester or not. In 
summary, an Attester could be compromised in some way and RATS tries to 
inhibit that Attester to lie about that.

There are a lot of benefits if an EAT (representing evidence) is a CWT:

* we avoid conflicting CWT claim index/label definitions in the IANA 
registry, while being able to use the CWT world of claims (existing, cnf 
soon, and such),
* at first glance it seems simpler to use existing code that can process 
CWT, and
* EAT can simply inherit the well defined COSE signing conventions.

Alas, there is also a very specific drawback:

* sometimes RATS might not want to sign a token (maybe that does render 
it not a token anymore, but rather a ticket. But that is just a rather 
minor detail for now)

Why do RATS sometimes not require a signature around their CWT Claims 
Sets? Because the surrounding secure channel between two entities with 
well established authenticity and trustworthiness can be good enough to 
convey useful CWT Claims Sets without a signature (emphasis on: in RATS).

Now - there are multiple options discussed in the RATS WG how to deal 
with this:

1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature",
2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., that 
are not signed).

At the last RATS virtual interim there was no certainty how to approach 
this. So this is a call out. COSE, ACE, and CBOR, how would you approach 
this "unsigned CWT Claims Set" requirement?

If one of the three options highlighted above is out of the question, 
please say so (and please elaborate on the why for the sake of helping 
the RATS WG understand why that is not a good idea).

If one of the three options looks like a low hanging fruit & viable, 
please say so (and... you know the drill).

I hope that this email contains all the information required to help the 
RATS WG in this call out to other WGs. If it does not, please say so :)

Last but not least, if there are other relevant WGs or experts that 
could lend opinions or alternatives, let us know.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


From nobody Wed Mar  4 11:58:09 2020
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Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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On 2020-03-04, at 19:40, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
wrote:
>=20
> 1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature",

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Say_No

> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., =
that are not signed).

I believe this is pretty much the same option.
I think ACE would come up with a CBOR tag as the obvious technical =
solution, and CBOR would suggest exactly that to ACE as the group =
responsible for CWT (and thus CWT Claims Sets).

Apparently the only technical problem we have is that we don=E2=80=99t =
have a defined way to mark a naked CWT Claims Set (NCCS) as such; EATs =
would then be either NCCS or CWTs.
CBOR tags are cheap and solve this problem.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Wed Mar  4 13:42:17 2020
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Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Henk,

Well you have definitely written a message designed to get a response =
from me.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 10:41 AM
To: rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not =
to be a CWT?

Hi RATS enthusiasts,
hi ACE,
hi CBOR,

in the RATS WG we had a lot of discussions about the nature of an Entity =
Attestation Token (EAT):

 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/

 > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/

A bit of (hopefully useful) context: an EAT is one way to convey =
believable evidence from an Attester (a role residing on a device-like
entity) to a Verifier (another role defined by RATS - the appraiser of =
evidence). All that is done to provide a Relying Party with "simple =
enough" attestation results generated by the Verifier to enable Relying =
Parties (in general, the remote peer) to make an informed decision about =
whether to put trust in the trustworthiness of that Attester or not. In =
summary, an Attester could be compromised in some way and RATS tries to =
inhibit that Attester to lie about that.

There are a lot of benefits if an EAT (representing evidence) is a CWT:

* we avoid conflicting CWT claim index/label definitions in the IANA =
registry, while being able to use the CWT world of claims (existing, cnf =
soon, and such),
* at first glance it seems simpler to use existing code that can process =
CWT, and
* EAT can simply inherit the well defined COSE signing conventions.

Alas, there is also a very specific drawback:

* sometimes RATS might not want to sign a token (maybe that does render =
it not a token anymore, but rather a ticket. But that is just a rather =
minor detail for now)

Why do RATS sometimes not require a signature around their CWT Claims =
Sets? Because the surrounding secure channel between two entities with =
well established authenticity and trustworthiness can be good enough to =
convey useful CWT Claims Sets without a signature (emphasis on: in =
RATS).

Now - there are multiple options discussed in the RATS WG how to deal =
with this:

1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature",

[JLS] For suggesting this, you should have all of you security =
credentials revoked.  The idea of deliberately introducing a way to take =
the security value of COSE signatures to zero is something that should =
be staked like a vampire and not allowed to continue.  I strongly =
believe that this is a fatal flaw in the current JOSE security suite and =
have several times deliberated writing a document to remove the "null =
signature" from JOSE.  While it is bad to have signatures which are no =
longer adequately secure, having one with zero security is just brain =
dead.

2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or

[JLS] I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any =
reason for it however.  See below.

3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., that =
are not signed).
[JLS] I don't see any difference between this and option #2

[JLS]
4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. =20

My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or order =
of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus looks like

while (true) {
    if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the =
content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue; }
    if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; =
save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; =
continue;}
    if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the =
content; save the signer information; continue }
    if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
    throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
}

This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would allow =
that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can be passed.  =
What you are suggesting would require extra code to exist someplace that =
is going to check for an additional tag.  It is also going to lead to =
people thinking that this new tag should be legal to place inside of a =
CWT.  After all it makes more sense to always include it than to just =
sometimes include it.  This would be more of an issue if an array rather =
than a map was being used to carry the claims as there would be a chance =
to not know what type of security wrapper exists.

[JLS END]


At the last RATS virtual interim there was no certainty how to approach =
this. So this is a call out. COSE, ACE, and CBOR, how would you approach =
this "unsigned CWT Claims Set" requirement?

If one of the three options highlighted above is out of the question, =
please say so (and please elaborate on the why for the sake of helping =
the RATS WG understand why that is not a good idea).

If one of the three options looks like a low hanging fruit & viable, =
please say so (and... you know the drill).

I hope that this email contains all the information required to help the =
RATS WG in this call out to other WGs. If it does not, please say so :)

Last but not least, if there are other relevant WGs or experts that =
could lend opinions or alternatives, let us know.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Wed Mar  4 14:33:55 2020
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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, <rats@ietf.org>, <ace@ietf.org>, <cbor@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Hi Jim,

I'll take a stake into my heart for the group then :) Please note that I 
claim that there is no evidence that I am a vampire nor that I am the 
provenance of option 1.).

I tried to phrase the output of the last virtual interim as neutral as 
possible and I think your reply is to be categorized as:

Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from a COSE WG chair.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 04.03.20 22:42, Jim Schaad wrote:
> Henk,
> 
> Well you have definitely written a message designed to get a response from me.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 10:41 AM
> To: rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
> 
> Hi RATS enthusiasts,
> hi ACE,
> hi CBOR,
> 
> in the RATS WG we had a lot of discussions about the nature of an Entity Attestation Token (EAT):
> 
>   > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/
> 
>   > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/
> 
> A bit of (hopefully useful) context: an EAT is one way to convey believable evidence from an Attester (a role residing on a device-like
> entity) to a Verifier (another role defined by RATS - the appraiser of evidence). All that is done to provide a Relying Party with "simple enough" attestation results generated by the Verifier to enable Relying Parties (in general, the remote peer) to make an informed decision about whether to put trust in the trustworthiness of that Attester or not. In summary, an Attester could be compromised in some way and RATS tries to inhibit that Attester to lie about that.
> 
> There are a lot of benefits if an EAT (representing evidence) is a CWT:
> 
> * we avoid conflicting CWT claim index/label definitions in the IANA registry, while being able to use the CWT world of claims (existing, cnf soon, and such),
> * at first glance it seems simpler to use existing code that can process CWT, and
> * EAT can simply inherit the well defined COSE signing conventions.
> 
> Alas, there is also a very specific drawback:
> 
> * sometimes RATS might not want to sign a token (maybe that does render it not a token anymore, but rather a ticket. But that is just a rather minor detail for now)
> 
> Why do RATS sometimes not require a signature around their CWT Claims Sets? Because the surrounding secure channel between two entities with well established authenticity and trustworthiness can be good enough to convey useful CWT Claims Sets without a signature (emphasis on: in RATS).
> 
> Now - there are multiple options discussed in the RATS WG how to deal with this:
> 
> 1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature",
> 
> [JLS] For suggesting this, you should have all of you security credentials revoked.  The idea of deliberately introducing a way to take the security value of COSE signatures to zero is something that should be staked like a vampire and not allowed to continue.  I strongly believe that this is a fatal flaw in the current JOSE security suite and have several times deliberated writing a document to remove the "null signature" from JOSE.  While it is bad to have signatures which are no longer adequately secure, having one with zero security is just brain dead.
> 
> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
> 
> [JLS] I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any reason for it however.  See below.
> 
> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., that are not signed).
> [JLS] I don't see any difference between this and option #2
> 
> [JLS]
> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
> 
> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus looks like
> 
> while (true) {
>      if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue; }
>      if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue;}
>      if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the signer information; continue }
>      if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
>      throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
> }
> 
> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra code to exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag.  It is also going to lead to people thinking that this new tag should be legal to place inside of a CWT.  After all it makes more sense to always include it than to just sometimes include it.  This would be more of an issue if an array rather than a map was being used to carry the claims as there would be a chance to not know what type of security wrapper exists.
> 
> [JLS END]
> 
> 
> At the last RATS virtual interim there was no certainty how to approach this. So this is a call out. COSE, ACE, and CBOR, how would you approach this "unsigned CWT Claims Set" requirement?
> 
> If one of the three options highlighted above is out of the question, please say so (and please elaborate on the why for the sake of helping the RATS WG understand why that is not a good idea).
> 
> If one of the three options looks like a low hanging fruit & viable, please say so (and... you know the drill).
> 
> I hope that this email contains all the information required to help the RATS WG in this call out to other WGs. If it does not, please say so :)
> 
> Last but not least, if there are other relevant WGs or experts that could lend opinions or alternatives, let us know.
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> 


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Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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On 2020-03-04, at 23:33, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
wrote:
>=20
> Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from a COSE WG chair.

Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from the author of the =
COSE specification.
(And at least one other WG member agrees.)

FTFY=E2=80=A6

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Oh. Yes. Sorry.

Tired and therefore still claiming #notavampire

On 04.03.20 23:46, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-03-04, at 23:33, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>
>> Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from a COSE WG chair.
> 
> Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from the author of the COSE specification.
> (And at least one other WG member agrees.)
> 
> FTFY…
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
> 


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Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 2:33 PM
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; =
cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or =
not to be a CWT?

Hi Jim,

I'll take a stake into my heart for the group then :) Please note that I =
claim that there is no evidence that I am a vampire nor that I am the =
provenance of option 1.).
[JLS]  Please note I was planning on staking the idea not the person, I =
was just going to de-credential you.  However that does raise the =
question should I bring salt and a sewing kit (mummies) or a gun with a =
silver bullet (werewolves)?

I tried to phrase the output of the last virtual interim as neutral as =
possible and I think your reply is to be categorized as:

Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from a COSE WG chair.

[JLS] That would be the COSE author and ACE and CBOR WG chair.  I am not =
a COSE WG chair.  However, I guess I hit all three asks.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On 04.03.20 22:42, Jim Schaad wrote:
> Henk,
>=20
> Well you have definitely written a message designed to get a response =
from me.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 10:41 AM
> To: rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or =
not to be a CWT?
>=20
> Hi RATS enthusiasts,
> hi ACE,
> hi CBOR,
>=20
> in the RATS WG we had a lot of discussions about the nature of an =
Entity Attestation Token (EAT):
>=20
>   > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/
>=20
>   > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/
>=20
> A bit of (hopefully useful) context: an EAT is one way to convey=20
> believable evidence from an Attester (a role residing on a device-like
> entity) to a Verifier (another role defined by RATS - the appraiser of =
evidence). All that is done to provide a Relying Party with "simple =
enough" attestation results generated by the Verifier to enable Relying =
Parties (in general, the remote peer) to make an informed decision about =
whether to put trust in the trustworthiness of that Attester or not. In =
summary, an Attester could be compromised in some way and RATS tries to =
inhibit that Attester to lie about that.
>=20
> There are a lot of benefits if an EAT (representing evidence) is a =
CWT:
>=20
> * we avoid conflicting CWT claim index/label definitions in the IANA=20
> registry, while being able to use the CWT world of claims (existing,=20
> cnf soon, and such),
> * at first glance it seems simpler to use existing code that can=20
> process CWT, and
> * EAT can simply inherit the well defined COSE signing conventions.
>=20
> Alas, there is also a very specific drawback:
>=20
> * sometimes RATS might not want to sign a token (maybe that does=20
> render it not a token anymore, but rather a ticket. But that is just a =

> rather minor detail for now)
>=20
> Why do RATS sometimes not require a signature around their CWT Claims =
Sets? Because the surrounding secure channel between two entities with =
well established authenticity and trustworthiness can be good enough to =
convey useful CWT Claims Sets without a signature (emphasis on: in =
RATS).
>=20
> Now - there are multiple options discussed in the RATS WG how to deal =
with this:
>=20
> 1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature",
>=20
> [JLS] For suggesting this, you should have all of you security =
credentials revoked.  The idea of deliberately introducing a way to take =
the security value of COSE signatures to zero is something that should =
be staked like a vampire and not allowed to continue.  I strongly =
believe that this is a fatal flaw in the current JOSE security suite and =
have several times deliberated writing a document to remove the "null =
signature" from JOSE.  While it is bad to have signatures which are no =
longer adequately secure, having one with zero security is just brain =
dead.
>=20
> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
>=20
> [JLS] I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any =
reason for it however.  See below.
>=20
> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., =
that are not signed).
> [JLS] I don't see any difference between this and option #2
>=20
> [JLS]
> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
>=20
> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or=20
> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus looks like
>=20
> while (true) {
>      if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the =
content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue; }
>      if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the =
content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue;}
>      if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the =
content; save the signer information; continue }
>      if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
>      throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
> }
>=20
> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would allow =
that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can be passed.  =
What you are suggesting would require extra code to exist someplace that =
is going to check for an additional tag.  It is also going to lead to =
people thinking that this new tag should be legal to place inside of a =
CWT.  After all it makes more sense to always include it than to just =
sometimes include it.  This would be more of an issue if an array rather =
than a map was being used to carry the claims as there would be a chance =
to not know what type of security wrapper exists.
>=20
> [JLS END]
>=20
>=20
> At the last RATS virtual interim there was no certainty how to =
approach this. So this is a call out. COSE, ACE, and CBOR, how would you =
approach this "unsigned CWT Claims Set" requirement?
>=20
> If one of the three options highlighted above is out of the question, =
please say so (and please elaborate on the why for the sake of helping =
the RATS WG understand why that is not a good idea).
>=20
> If one of the three options looks like a low hanging fruit & viable, =
please say so (and... you know the drill).
>=20
> I hope that this email contains all the information required to help=20
> the RATS WG in this call out to other WGs. If it does not, please say=20
> so :)
>=20
> Last but not least, if there are other relevant WGs or experts that =
could lend opinions or alternatives, let us know.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


{ I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without good
quoting, I'm repeating the important part }

    henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or

Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
    jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any
    jls> reason for it however.  See below.

    henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e.,
    henk> that are not signed).

    jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2

    jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.

    jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or
    jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus looks
    jls> like

    jls> while (true) {
    jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue; }
    jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue;}
    jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the signer information; continue }
    jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
    jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
    jls> }

    jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would
    jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can
    jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra code to
    jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag.

    jls> IT IS
    jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD BE
    jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more sense to
    jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.

Emphasis mine.
So your suggestion is to do nothing.
I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough code to
ask the question intelligently.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>, "cbor@ietf.org" <cbor@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: "'Smith, Ned'" <ned.smith@intel.com>, 'Michael Richardson' <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, <rats@ietf.org>, <ace@ietf.org>, <cbor@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would =
agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was =
instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special =
marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to =
distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something like

claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap=20

where the CWT is over a claimsMap element.   In this case one could =
easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; =
ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a =
CWT or not to be a CWT?

My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least one =
of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That =
implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't =
valid COSE.=20

If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is =
best.

-Ned

=EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

   =20
    { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without =
good
    quoting, I'm repeating the important part }
   =20
        henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
   =20
    Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
        jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see =
any
        jls> reason for it however.  See below.
   =20
        henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim =
Sets (i.e.,
        henk> that are not signed).
   =20
        jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2
   =20
        jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
   =20
        jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the =
number or
        jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus =
looks
        jls> like
   =20
        jls> while (true) {
        jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to =
the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue; }
        jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the =
content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue;}
        jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input =
to the content; save the signer information; continue }
        jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
        jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
        jls> }
   =20
        jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and =
would
        jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a =
CWT can
        jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra =
code to
        jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional =
tag.
   =20
        jls> IT IS
        jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG =
SHOULD BE
        jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more =
sense to
        jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.
   =20
    Emphasis mine.
    So your suggestion is to do nothing.
    I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough =
code to
    ask the question intelligently.
   =20
    --
    Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
     -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
   =20

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Thu Mar  5 23:35:30 2020
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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, "'Smith, Ned'" <ned.smith@intel.com>,  "'Michael Richardson'" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, <rats@ietf.org>, <ace@ietf.org>, <cbor@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cbor] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Hi Jim,

from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here 
"tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make 
sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register 
a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some 
content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In 
contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear 
semantic equivalence for the content.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote:
> I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something like
> 
> claimsMade = CWT / claimsMap
> 
> where the CWT is over a claimsMap element.   In this case one could easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
> 
> My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't valid COSE.
> 
> If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is best.
> 
> -Ned
> 
> ﻿On 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
> 
>      
>      { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without good
>      quoting, I'm repeating the important part }
>      
>          henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
>      
>      Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>          jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any
>          jls> reason for it however.  See below.
>      
>          henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e.,
>          henk> that are not signed).
>      
>          jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2
>      
>          jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
>      
>          jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or
>          jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus looks
>          jls> like
>      
>          jls> while (true) {
>          jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue; }
>          jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue;}
>          jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the signer information; continue }
>          jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
>          jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
>          jls> }
>      
>          jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would
>          jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can
>          jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra code to
>          jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag.
>      
>          jls> IT IS
>          jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD BE
>          jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more sense to
>          jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.
>      
>      Emphasis mine.
>      So your suggestion is to do nothing.
>      I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough code to
>      ask the question intelligently.
>      
>      --
>      Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>       -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>      
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CBOR mailing list
> CBOR@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor
> 


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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, "'Smith, Ned'" <ned.smith@intel.com>,  "'Michael Richardson'" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, <rats@ietf.org>, <ace@ietf.org>, <cbor@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cbor] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Please let me correct myself:

My proposal is to simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka 
"naked") CWT Claims sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made 
me loose the perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own 
subject more often...).

I think this is useful outside of RATS as well and will start a 
corresponding draft in RATS to create a more tangible proposal that 
elaborates on motivation & background: as with YANG modules, CBOR tags 
can be defined in any WG.

There are multiple benefits to this approach:

* parsers can choose to ignore tags in any case,
* it is the least invasive approach (next to doing nothing),
* we will not be the ones that attempt to reopen RFC8392, and
* we detach this effort from progressing EAT as it is CWT-related.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 06.03.20 08:35, Henk Birkholz wrote:
> Hi Jim,
> 
> from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here 
> "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make 
> sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register 
> a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some 
> content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In 
> contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear 
> semantic equivalence for the content.
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote:
>> I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would 
>> agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was 
>> instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special 
>> marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible 
>> to distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something like
>>
>> claimsMade = CWT / claimsMap
>>
>> where the CWT is over a claimsMap element.   In this case one could 
>> easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
>> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; 
>> ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be 
>> a CWT or not to be a CWT?
>>
>> My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least 
>> one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid 
>> COSE. That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" 
>> as it isn't valid COSE.
>>
>> If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is 
>> best.
>>
>> -Ned
>>
>> ﻿On 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" 
>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>>
>>      { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without 
>> good
>>      quoting, I'm repeating the important part }
>>          henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
>>      Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>>          jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I 
>> see any
>>          jls> reason for it however.  See below.
>>          henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim 
>> Sets (i.e.,
>>          henk> that are not signed).
>>          jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2
>>          jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
>>          jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the 
>> number or
>>          jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It 
>> thus looks
>>          jls> like
>>          jls> while (true) {
>>          jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input 
>> to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared 
>> key authentication; continue; }
>>          jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to 
>> the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key 
>> authentication; continue;}
>>          jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set 
>> input to the content; save the signer information; continue }
>>          jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
>>          jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
>>          jls> }
>>          jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims 
>> and would
>>          jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as 
>> a CWT can
>>          jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra 
>> code to
>>          jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional 
>> tag.
>>          jls> IT IS
>>          jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG 
>> SHOULD BE
>>          jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more 
>> sense to
>>          jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.
>>      Emphasis mine.
>>      So your suggestion is to do nothing.
>>      I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written 
>> enough code to
>>      ask the question intelligently.
>>      --
>>      Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>>       -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CBOR mailing list
>> CBOR@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor
>>


From nobody Fri Mar  6 07:38:21 2020
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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 07:38:11 -0800
In-Reply-To: <600c2555-75af-a4dc-98c8-206a91b1af52@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, rats@ietf.org, ace@ietf.org, cbor@ietf.org
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <b1e8d7f6-426a-6b71-dc6e-62b1ef41e297@sit.fraunhofer.de> <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <c2d851ab-e5f6-8f4b-9602-2801e6127196@sit.fraunhofer.de> <600c2555-75af-a4dc-98c8-206a91b1af52@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/F8qLxHOJmUFjtEb4ojGn8JJsiVw>
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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So far, there are three things we have turned up in work on EAT that we =
would like considered as changes to CWT.

1) Naked CWT=E2=80=99s, probably tagged
The point of the tag would be for use in protocols where you can=E2=80=99t=
 tell a naked CWT is a CWT by the context of the protocol. So far we =
seem to always assign a tag to new CBOR data structures for this =
purpose. For naked CWT=E2=80=99s, it seems we really should have the =
tag, even if it makes Jim=E2=80=99s code larger.

2) Disallow floating point dates
Right now CWT allows dates like the expiration date to be floating =
point. The only use of floating point dates is fractional seconds and =
dates so large they are not human time scale. As it stands a CWT decoder =
MUST implement floating point. This is a substantial burden for no good =
reason at all. One option here is an incompatible change to these data =
items. Another is to define new integer-only data items (new =
labels/keys) for the same data items.

3) Claims Characteristics for new registered claims
A lot of people had a lot of opinions and points on what data formats =
and types and such were used for claims back in 2019 in EAT. I =
(hopefully) captured most of that in some recommendations for claims =
characteristics. Text is currently here in a PR against the EAT draft =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7>, but it seems it really =
should be for all CWT claims.


I don=E2=80=99t know if there are more things EAT would like to change =
in CWT. Or maybe there are other uses of CWT that would like to change =
it.


I proposed that EAT be an update to the CWT RFC. Dave Thaler said they =
should probably be separate from EAT and handled in the ACE WG and that =
made sense to most of us. Seems to me that a new RFC that either updates =
or obsoletes 8392 would be the thing to do, but maybe there are other =
ways.=20

LL


> On Mar 6, 2020, at 2:30 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Please let me correct myself:
>=20
> My proposal is to simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka =
"naked") CWT Claims sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made =
me loose the perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own =
subject more often...).
>=20
> I think this is useful outside of RATS as well and will start a =
corresponding draft in RATS to create a more tangible proposal that =
elaborates on motivation & background: as with YANG modules, CBOR tags =
can be defined in any WG.
>=20
> There are multiple benefits to this approach:
>=20
> * parsers can choose to ignore tags in any case,
> * it is the least invasive approach (next to doing nothing),
> * we will not be the ones that attempt to reopen RFC8392, and
> * we detach this effort from progressing EAT as it is CWT-related.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>=20
> On 06.03.20 08:35, Henk Birkholz wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>> from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten =
here "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to =
make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to =
register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the =
some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE =
array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a =
clear semantic equivalence for the content.
>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>> Henk
>> On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote:
>>> I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would =
agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was =
instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special =
marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to =
distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something like
>>>=20
>>> claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap
>>>=20
>>> where the CWT is over a claimsMap element.   In this case one could =
easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging.
>>>=20
>>> Jim
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
>>> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; =
ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to =
be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
>>>=20
>>> My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least =
one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. =
That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it =
isn't valid COSE.
>>>=20
>>> If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option =
is best.
>>>=20
>>> -Ned
>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>      { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read =
without good
>>>      quoting, I'm repeating the important part }
>>>          henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, =
or
>>>      Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>>>          jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I =
see any
>>>          jls> reason for it however.  See below.
>>>          henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT =
Claim Sets (i.e.,
>>>          henk> that are not signed).
>>>          jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2
>>>          jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
>>>          jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about =
the number or
>>>          jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It =
thus looks
>>>          jls> like
>>>          jls> while (true) {
>>>          jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set =
input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. =
shared key authentication; continue; }
>>>          jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input =
to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue;}
>>>          jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set =
input to the content; save the signer information; continue }
>>>          jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
>>>          jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct =
format.
>>>          jls> }
>>>          jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims =
and would
>>>          jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place =
as a CWT can
>>>          jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require =
extra code to
>>>          jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an =
additional tag.
>>>          jls> IT IS
>>>          jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW =
TAG SHOULD BE
>>>          jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes =
more sense to
>>>          jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.
>>>      Emphasis mine.
>>>      So your suggestion is to do nothing.
>>>      I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written =
enough code to
>>>      ask the question intelligently.
>>>      --
>>>      Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software =
Works
>>>       -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ace mailing list
>>> Ace@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CBOR mailing list
>>> CBOR@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor
>>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">So far, there are three things we have turned up in work on =
EAT that we would like considered as changes to CWT.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1) Naked CWT=E2=80=99s, =
probably tagged</div><div class=3D"">The point of the tag would be for =
use in protocols where you can=E2=80=99t tell a naked CWT is a CWT by =
the context of the protocol. So far we seem to always assign a tag to =
new CBOR data structures for this purpose. For naked CWT=E2=80=99s, it =
seems we really should have the tag, even if it makes Jim=E2=80=99s code =
larger.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2) =
Disallow floating point dates</div><div class=3D"">Right now CWT allows =
dates like the expiration date to be floating point. The only use of =
floating point dates is fractional seconds and dates so large they are =
not human time scale. As it stands a CWT decoder MUST implement floating =
point. This is a substantial burden for no good reason at all. One =
option here is an incompatible change to these data items. Another is to =
define new integer-only data items (new labels/keys) for the same data =
items.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3) =
Claims Characteristics for new registered claims</div><div class=3D"">A =
lot of people had a lot of opinions and points on what data formats and =
types and such were used for claims back in 2019 in EAT. I (hopefully) =
captured most of that in some recommendations for claims =
characteristics. Text is currently<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7" class=3D""> here in =
a PR against the EAT draft</a>, but it seems it really should be for all =
CWT claims.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t know if there are more =
things EAT would like to change in CWT. Or maybe there are other uses of =
CWT that would like to change it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
proposed that EAT be an update to the CWT RFC. Dave Thaler said they =
should probably be separate from EAT and handled in the ACE WG and that =
made sense to most of us. Seems to me that a new RFC that either updates =
or obsoletes 8392 would be the thing to do, but maybe there are other =
ways.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 6, 2020, at 2:30 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Please=
 let me correct myself:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">My proposal is to =
simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka "naked") CWT Claims =
sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made me loose the =
perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own subject more =
often...).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think this is useful outside =
of RATS as well and will start a corresponding draft in RATS to create a =
more tangible proposal that elaborates on motivation &amp; background: =
as with YANG modules, CBOR tags can be defined in any WG.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There are multiple benefits to this =
approach:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* parsers can choose to ignore =
tags in any case,<br class=3D"">* it is the least invasive approach =
(next to doing nothing),<br class=3D"">* we will not be the ones that =
attempt to reopen RFC8392, and<br class=3D"">* we detach this effort =
from progressing EAT as it is CWT-related.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 06.03.20 08:35, Henk =
Birkholz wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi =
Jim,<br class=3D"">from an implementation point of view that is fine. To =
quote Carsten here "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the =
whole structure to make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it =
does not hurt to register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that =
adheres to the some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed =
via a COSE array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and =
enables a clear semantic equivalence for the content.<br class=3D"">Viele =
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D"">On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim =
Schaad wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I would =
not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.&nbsp; I would agree =
that a CWT does require that some security be applied.&nbsp; I was =
instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special =
marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to =
distinguish the cases apart.&nbsp;&nbsp; In CDDL I would put something =
like<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">where the CWT is over a claimsMap =
element.&nbsp;&nbsp; In this case one could easily distinguish between =
the two cases without additional tagging.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Jim<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">From: Ace &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Smith, Ned<br =
class=3D"">Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM<br class=3D"">To: =
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">ace@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:cbor@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">cbor@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] =
RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a =
CWT?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">My interpretation of this thread was =
that CWT spec requires at least one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, =
COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That implies the parser should =
never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't valid COSE.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' =
option is best.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-Ned<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael =
Richardson" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { I found Jim's very interesting =
email very hard to read without good<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; quoting, I'm repeating the important =
part }<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
henk&gt; 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" =
class=3D"">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; I =
don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
reason for it however.&nbsp; See below.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; henk&gt; 3.) =
go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e.,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; henk&gt; =
that are not signed).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; I =
don't see any difference between this and option #2<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; 4.) =
Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; My =
CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.&nbsp; It thus =
looks<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
jls&gt; like<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
while (true) {<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; if =
input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; =
save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue; }<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; if =
input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save =
the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; =
continue;}<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
jls&gt; if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to =
the content; save the signer information; continue }<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; if =
input is a map - return input as the set of claims;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
throw an exception because it is not the correct format.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; }<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; This =
does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; be =
passed.&nbsp; What you are suggesting would require extra code to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; IT =
IS<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
jls&gt; ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD =
BE<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
jls&gt; LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.&nbsp; After all it makes more =
sense to<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
jls&gt; always include it than to just sometimes include it.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Emphasis mine.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; So your suggestion is to do =
nothing.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I also wondered why that =
wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough code to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ask the question intelligently.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; --<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br=
 class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ace mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Ace@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">CBOR mailing list<br class=3D"">CBOR@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_1A895FF5-6C48-4DF1-996D-3909BE72750D--


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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Henk Birkholz' <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, <rats@ietf.org>, <ace@ietf.org>, <cbor@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cbor] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Henk,

I want to re-iterate that this is not quite the same no/low cost =
situation that leads me to say - yes just tag it and be fine.

There is a very high chance that making this change is going to lead one =
into a situation where they are going to need to change their because =
people are going to start using this tag all of the time and not just =
when the claims are bare.  That is the "unsigned CWT Claims Set" could =
be passed into the a COSE library to be signed and the tag would never =
be stripped.

There is also a small cost in terms of message size, but I assume that =
you are willing to absorb that.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>=20
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 11:35 PM
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; 'Smith, Ned' =
<ned.smith@intel.com>; 'Michael Richardson' <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; =
rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Cbor] [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - =
to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?

Hi Jim,

from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here =
"tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make =
sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register =
a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some =
content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In =
contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear =
semantic equivalence for the content.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote:
> I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would =
agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was =
instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special =
marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to =
distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something like
>=20
> claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap
>=20
> where the CWT is over a claimsMap element.   In this case one could =
easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging.
>=20
> Jim
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org;=20
> ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be =
a CWT or not to be a CWT?
>=20
> My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least =
one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. =
That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it =
isn't valid COSE.
>=20
> If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is =
best.
>=20
> -Ned
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>=20
>     =20
>      { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without =
good
>      quoting, I'm repeating the important part }
>     =20
>          henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option,=20
> or
>     =20
>      Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>          jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I =
see any
>          jls> reason for it however.  See below.
>     =20
>          henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim =
Sets (i.e.,
>          henk> that are not signed).
>     =20
>          jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2
>     =20
>          jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
>     =20
>          jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the =
number or
>          jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It =
thus looks
>          jls> like
>     =20
>          jls> while (true) {
>          jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input =
to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared =
key authentication; continue; }
>          jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to =
the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue;}
>          jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set =
input to the content; save the signer information; continue }
>          jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
>          jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
>          jls> }
>     =20
>          jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims =
and would
>          jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as =
a CWT can
>          jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra =
code to
>          jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional =
tag.
>     =20
>          jls> IT IS
>          jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG =
SHOULD BE
>          jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more =
sense to
>          jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.
>     =20
>      Emphasis mine.
>      So your suggestion is to do nothing.
>      I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written =
enough code to
>      ask the question intelligently.
>     =20
>      --
>      Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software =
Works
>       -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>     =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> CBOR mailing list
> CBOR@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cbor] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Hi Jim,

> On 2020-03-06, at 20:13, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>=20
> There is a very high chance that making this change is going to lead =
one into a situation where they are going to need to change their =
because people are going to start using this tag all of the time and not =
just when the claims are bare. =20

So it should be made clear that this is not a valid CWT then.

> That is the "unsigned CWT Claims Set" could be passed into the a COSE =
library to be signed and the tag would never be stripped.

It obviously could, but so could be many other things, which also =
wouldn=E2=80=99t be a CWT.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "cbor@ietf.org" <cbor@ietf.org>, "Henk Birkholz" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [Ace] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Hi Ned,

What I was trying to say is that the Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) =
is not a CWT, but an UCCS.  So I wouldn=E2=80=99t call it a token (which =
implies some form of protection to me).  But it is still a useful data =
structure to carry around.

> On 2020-03-06, at 20:59, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> The earlier thread suggested that a naked token could be given to a =
parser that was programmed correctly and it would 'just work'. But if =
the definition of a CWT/JWT is that it must have bounding signature, =
mac, encryption enveloping, then the parser should reject naked tokens =
(tagged as such or not).=20

A CWT decoder would diagnose an UCCS as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D.
A CWT/UCCS decoder would diagnose it as =E2=80=9CUCCS=E2=80=9D.

> If the naked token is defined and the map has a tag that indicates it =
was formed without secure enveloping then the parser should accept it, =
but the code using the parser needs to find some other way to ensure =
security.=20

Right.  An UCCS is only a useful assertion if received over a secure =
channel with the right properties to make it a useful assertion.

> If a parser receives a map with both security enveloping and the naked =
token tag, then it should return both the map and the security envelope =
context and let the code using the parser decide if the security context =
satisfies the security requirement.

Well, it should diagnose this as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D (and not an =
UCCS either).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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=20

=20

From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>=20
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 7:38 AM
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; Smith, Ned =
<ned.smith@intel.com>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; =
rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - =
to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?

=20

So far, there are three things we have turned up in work on EAT that we =
would like considered as changes to CWT.

=20

1) Naked CWT=E2=80=99s, probably tagged

The point of the tag would be for use in protocols where you =
can=E2=80=99t tell a naked CWT is a CWT by the context of the protocol. =
So far we seem to always assign a tag to new CBOR data structures for =
this purpose. For naked CWT=E2=80=99s, it seems we really should have =
the tag, even if it makes Jim=E2=80=99s code larger.

=20

2) Disallow floating point dates

Right now CWT allows dates like the expiration date to be floating =
point. The only use of floating point dates is fractional seconds and =
dates so large they are not human time scale. As it stands a CWT decoder =
MUST implement floating point. This is a substantial burden for no good =
reason at all. One option here is an incompatible change to these data =
items. Another is to define new integer-only data items (new =
labels/keys) for the same data items.

=20

=20

[JLS] As far as I am concerned this is just a profiling effort.  I also =
agree that it makes almost no sense to use floating point for dates in =
almost all cases where CWT claims have been created.

=20

3) Claims Characteristics for new registered claims

A lot of people had a lot of opinions and points on what data formats =
and types and such were used for claims back in 2019 in EAT. I =
(hopefully) captured most of that in some recommendations for claims =
characteristics. Text is currently here in a PR against the EAT draft =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7> , but it seems it really =
should be for all CWT claims.

=20

[JLS]  After one fast read, I think that these are good generic =
suggestions, however I disagree that this should be true for all CWT =
claims.  There is an explicit expert review section that is designed for =
the registration of extremely explicit claims that will violate these =
guidelines.  =20

=20

jim

=20

I don=E2=80=99t know if there are more things EAT would like to change =
in CWT. Or maybe there are other uses of CWT that would like to change =
it.

=20

=20

I proposed that EAT be an update to the CWT RFC. Dave Thaler said they =
should probably be separate from EAT and handled in the ACE WG and that =
made sense to most of us. Seems to me that a new RFC that either updates =
or obsoletes 8392 would be the thing to do, but maybe there are other =
ways.=20

=20

LL

=20





On Mar 6, 2020, at 2:30 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> > wrote:

=20

Please let me correct myself:

My proposal is to simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka =
"naked") CWT Claims sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made =
me loose the perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own =
subject more often...).

I think this is useful outside of RATS as well and will start a =
corresponding draft in RATS to create a more tangible proposal that =
elaborates on motivation & background: as with YANG modules, CBOR tags =
can be defined in any WG.

There are multiple benefits to this approach:

* parsers can choose to ignore tags in any case,
* it is the least invasive approach (next to doing nothing),
* we will not be the ones that attempt to reopen RFC8392, and
* we detach this effort from progressing EAT as it is CWT-related.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk


On 06.03.20 08:35, Henk Birkholz wrote:



Hi Jim,
from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here =
"tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make =
sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register =
a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some =
content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In =
contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear =
semantic equivalence for the content.
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
Henk
On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote:



I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would =
agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was =
instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special =
marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to =
distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something like

claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap

where the CWT is over a claimsMap element.   In this case one could =
easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org> > On =
Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> >; rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> ; =
ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org> ; cbor@ietf.org =
<mailto:cbor@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a =
CWT or not to be a CWT?

My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least one =
of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That =
implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't =
valid COSE.

If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is =
best.

-Ned

=EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>  on behalf of =
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> > wrote:

     { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without =
good
     quoting, I'm repeating the important part }
         henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
     Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com <mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com> =
> wrote:
         jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see =
any
         jls> reason for it however.  See below.
         henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim =
Sets (i.e.,
         henk> that are not signed).
         jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2
         jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
         jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the =
number or
         jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It =
thus looks
         jls> like
         jls> while (true) {
         jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to =
the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue; }
         jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to =
the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue;}
         jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input =
to the content; save the signer information; continue }
         jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
         jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
         jls> }
         jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and =
would
         jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a =
CWT can
         jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra =
code to
         jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional =
tag.
         jls> IT IS
         jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG =
SHOULD BE
         jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more =
sense to
         jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.
     Emphasis mine.
     So your suggestion is to do nothing.
     I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough =
code to
     ask the question intelligently.
     --
     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca> >, Sandelman Software Works
      -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

_______________________________________________
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CBOR@ietf.org <mailto:CBOR@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor


_______________________________________________
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RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>=20
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=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade =
&lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 6, 2020 =
7:38 AM<br><b>To:</b> Henk Birkholz =
&lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Jim Schaad =
&lt;ietf@augustcellars.com&gt;; Smith, Ned &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;; =
Michael Richardson &lt;mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca&gt;; rats@ietf.org; =
ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] =
RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a =
CWT?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>So far, =
there are three things we have turned up in work on EAT that we would =
like considered as changes to CWT.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1) Naked CWT=E2=80=99s, probably =
tagged<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The point of the =
tag would be for use in protocols where you can=E2=80=99t tell a naked =
CWT is a CWT by the context of the protocol. So far we seem to always =
assign a tag to new CBOR data structures for this purpose. For naked =
CWT=E2=80=99s, it seems we really should have the tag, even if it makes =
Jim=E2=80=99s code larger.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2) Disallow floating point =
dates<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Right now CWT allows =
dates like the expiration date to be floating point. The only use of =
floating point dates is fractional seconds and dates so large they are =
not human time scale. As it stands a CWT decoder MUST implement floating =
point. This is a substantial burden for no good reason at all. One =
option here is an incompatible change to these data items. Another is to =
define new integer-only data items (new labels/keys) for the same data =
items.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[JLS] As far =
as I am concerned this is just a profiling effort.=C2=A0 I also agree =
that it makes almost no sense to use floating point for dates in almost =
all cases where CWT claims have been =
created.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>3) Claims Characteristics for new registered =
claims<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>A lot of people had =
a lot of opinions and points on what data formats and types and such =
were used for claims back in 2019 in EAT. I (hopefully) captured most of =
that in some recommendations for claims characteristics. Text is =
currently<a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7"> here in =
a PR against the EAT draft</a>, but it seems it really should be for all =
CWT claims.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[JLS]=C2=A0 After one fast read, I think that these =
are good generic suggestions, however I disagree that this should be =
true for all CWT claims.=C2=A0 There is an explicit expert review =
section that is designed for the registration of extremely explicit =
claims that will violate these guidelines.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>jim<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
don=E2=80=99t know if there are more things EAT would like to change in =
CWT. Or maybe there are other uses of CWT that would like to change =
it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
proposed that EAT be an update to the CWT RFC. Dave Thaler said they =
should probably be separate from EAT and handled in the ACE WG and that =
made sense to most of us. Seems to me that a new RFC that either updates =
or obsoletes 8392 would be the thing to do, but maybe there are other =
ways.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Mar 6, 2020, at 2:30 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Please let me correct myself:<br><br>My proposal is to =
simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka &quot;naked&quot;) CWT =
Claims sets. I wrote &quot;EAT&quot; Claims Set before and that made me =
loose the perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own subject =
more often...).<br><br>I think this is useful outside of RATS as well =
and will start a corresponding draft in RATS to create a more tangible =
proposal that elaborates on motivation &amp; background: as with YANG =
modules, CBOR tags can be defined in any WG.<br><br>There are multiple =
benefits to this approach:<br><br>* parsers can choose to ignore tags in =
any case,<br>* it is the least invasive approach (next to doing =
nothing),<br>* we will not be the ones that attempt to reopen RFC8392, =
and<br>* we detach this effort from progressing EAT as it is =
CWT-related.<br><br>Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br><br>Henk<br><br><br>On =
06.03.20 08:35, Henk Birkholz wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Jim,<br>from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote =
Carsten here &quot;tags are cheap&quot; and you would have to parse the =
whole structure to make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it =
does not hurt to register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that =
adheres to the some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed =
via a COSE array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and =
enables a clear semantic equivalence for the content.<br>Viele =
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>Henk<br>On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad =
wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I would not claim that a collection of =
CWT claims is a CWT.&nbsp; I would agree that a CWT does require that =
some security be applied.&nbsp; I was instead making the argument that =
there was no need to have a special marking for the collection as oppose =
to the CWT since it is possible to distinguish the cases =
apart.&nbsp;&nbsp; In CDDL I would put something like<br><br>claimsMade =
=3D CWT / claimsMap<br><br>where the CWT is over a claimsMap =
element.&nbsp;&nbsp; In this case one could easily distinguish between =
the two cases without additional =
tagging.<br><br>Jim<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Ace =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org">ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
On Behalf Of Smith, Ned<br>Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM<br>To: =
Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cbor@ietf.org">cbor@ietf.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [Ace] =
[Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a =
CWT?<br><br>My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires =
at least one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't =
valid COSE. That implies the parser should never get to &quot;if input =
is a map&quot; as it isn't valid COSE.<br><br>If the above =
interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is =
best.<br><br>-Ned<br><br>=EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, &quot;RATS on =
behalf of Michael Richardson&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on =
behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { I found Jim's very interesting =
email very hard to read without good<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
quoting, I'm repeating the important part =
}<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; henk&gt; 2.) go to =
ACE and ask for an &quot;unsigned token&quot; option, =
or<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; I =
don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see =
any<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; reason =
for it however.&nbsp; See =
below.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; henk&gt; 3.) =
go to CBOR and ask for a tag for &quot;naked&quot; CWT Claim Sets =
(i.e.,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; henk&gt; that =
are not signed).<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
jls&gt; I don't see any difference between this and option =
#2<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; 4.) Just =
write your CWT code in a sensible =
manner.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; My =
CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number =
or<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; order of =
COSE security wrapping layers on a token.&nbsp; It thus =
looks<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
like<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; while =
(true) {<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; if =
input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; =
save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key =
authentication; continue; =
}<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; if input =
has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC =
information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; =
continue;}<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the =
content; save the signer information; continue =
}<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; if input =
is a map - return input as the set of =
claims;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
throw an exception because it is not the correct =
format.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; =
}<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; This does =
not require a tag for a naked set of claims and =
would<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; allow =
that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT =
can<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; be =
passed.&nbsp; What you are suggesting would require extra code =
to<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; exist =
someplace that is going to check for an additional =
tag.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; IT =
IS<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; ALSO =
GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD =
BE<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; LEGAL TO =
PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.&nbsp; After all it makes more sense =
to<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jls&gt; always =
include it than to just sometimes include =
it.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Emphasis =
mine.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; So your suggestion is to do =
nothing.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I also wondered why that wouldn't =
work, but I hadn't written enough code to<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ask the question intelligently.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
--<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, =
Sandelman Software Works<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=3D IPv6 IoT =
consulting =
=3D-<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ace =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org">Ace@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/ace</a><br><br>__________________________________________=
_____<br>CBOR mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:CBOR@ietf.org">CBOR@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/cbor</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>=
RATS mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cbor] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Hi Jim,

I never intended an unprotected CWT Claims Set to be a CWT anymore, 
because by definition it would not be one any more, today. I'll try to 
be more explicit and clear: An unprotected CWT Claims Set is not a 
change to CWT, but a new thing based on the definition of CWT Claims Set 
in RFC8392 and that new thing cannot be a CWT. The semantics of the 
registered claims are the same though, because a CWT Claims Set is 
composed of claims defined in the CWT Claims registry.

I also agree with your point that simply replacing CWT with unprotected 
CCS would be nonsense in implementation/practice. Assuming that this 
leads to a very high chance of unprotected CCS taking over all the CWT 
use cases (which should also result in "not a CWT", I think) seems to be 
a bit of a drastic projection, don't you think? Especially, considering 
that CWT are intended be always appropriately identifiable (I assume you 
are very familiar with https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8392#section-6). 
Unprotected CCS must be unmistakably & appropriately identifiable as 
what they are, analogously.

I do not quite follow the reasoning why anyone using CWT or intending to 
use CWT today would be "lead into a situation where to change their tag" 
all of the sudden? Could you elaborate on that please?

If you put a tagged unprotected CCS in a COSE that would of course again 
be a violation - that is simply not a viable CWT anymore and a very 
weird way to interpret "unprotected", if I may add. If a minimal set of 
normative requirements (based on the topics discussed previously) are 
added, I am rather certain that implementers will not start to omit COSE 
from CWT Claims Sets and try to send these as CWT. Maybe I am still 
missing something very obvious that you are trying to tell me, though :)

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 06.03.20 20:13, Jim Schaad wrote:
> Henk,
> 
> I want to re-iterate that this is not quite the same no/low cost situation that leads me to say - yes just tag it and be fine.
> 
> There is a very high chance that making this change is going to lead one into a situation where they are going to need to change their because people are going to start using this tag all of the time and not just when the claims are bare.  That is the "unsigned CWT Claims Set" could be passed into the a COSE library to be signed and the tag would never be stripped.
> 
> There is also a small cost in terms of message size, but I assume that you are willing to absorb that.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 11:35 PM
> To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; 'Smith, Ned' <ned.smith@intel.com>; 'Michael Richardson' <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Cbor] [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear semantic equivalence for the content.
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote:
>> I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something like
>>
>> claimsMade = CWT / claimsMap
>>
>> where the CWT is over a claimsMap element.   In this case one could easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
>> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org;
>> ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
>>
>> My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't valid COSE.
>>
>> If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is best.
>>
>> -Ned
>>
>> ﻿On 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>>
>>       
>>       { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without good
>>       quoting, I'm repeating the important part }
>>       
>>           henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option,
>> or
>>       
>>       Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>>           jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any
>>           jls> reason for it however.  See below.
>>       
>>           henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e.,
>>           henk> that are not signed).
>>       
>>           jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2
>>       
>>           jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
>>       
>>           jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or
>>           jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus looks
>>           jls> like
>>       
>>           jls> while (true) {
>>           jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue; }
>>           jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue;}
>>           jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the signer information; continue }
>>           jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
>>           jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
>>           jls> }
>>       
>>           jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would
>>           jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can
>>           jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra code to
>>           jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag.
>>       
>>           jls> IT IS
>>           jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD BE
>>           jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more sense to
>>           jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.
>>       
>>       Emphasis mine.
>>       So your suggestion is to do nothing.
>>       I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough code to
>>       ask the question intelligently.
>>       
>>       --
>>       Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>>        -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>       
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CBOR mailing list
>> CBOR@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor
>>
> 


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Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 18:27:29 -0800
Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, "cbor@ietf.org" <cbor@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
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References: <b1e8d7f6-426a-6b71-dc6e-62b1ef41e297@sit.fraunhofer.de> <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <c2d851ab-e5f6-8f4b-9602-2801e6127196@sit.fraunhofer.de> <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> <CF21A694-BCCF-416A-9A46-4BAA230662C8@tzi.org> <D168A416-F4D3-405B-95DF-8CF1BAD63DF6@intel.com> <D8D8887D-2B73-4764-A974-5F681B5BA3DA@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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Pretty sure UCCS as Carsten describes below works for me provided:

- All the rules and requirements from CWT explicilty apply except =
signing/encryption
- It uses the same registry
- There is a tag defined for it
- You get an (untagged) UCCS when you remove all signing and encryption =
layers

LL


> On Mar 6, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Ned,
>=20
> What I was trying to say is that the Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) =
is not a CWT, but an UCCS.  So I wouldn=E2=80=99t call it a token (which =
implies some form of protection to me).  But it is still a useful data =
structure to carry around.
>=20
>> On 2020-03-06, at 20:59, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> The earlier thread suggested that a naked token could be given to a =
parser that was programmed correctly and it would 'just work'. But if =
the definition of a CWT/JWT is that it must have bounding signature, =
mac, encryption enveloping, then the parser should reject naked tokens =
(tagged as such or not).=20
>=20
> A CWT decoder would diagnose an UCCS as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D.
> A CWT/UCCS decoder would diagnose it as =E2=80=9CUCCS=E2=80=9D.
>=20
>> If the naked token is defined and the map has a tag that indicates it =
was formed without secure enveloping then the parser should accept it, =
but the code using the parser needs to find some other way to ensure =
security.=20
>=20
> Right.  An UCCS is only a useful assertion if received over a secure =
channel with the right properties to make it a useful assertion.
>=20
>> If a parser receives a map with both security enveloping and the =
naked token tag, then it should return both the map and the security =
envelope context and let the code using the parser decide if the =
security context satisfies the security requirement.
>=20
> Well, it should diagnose this as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D (and not =
an UCCS either).
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


From nobody Sun Mar  8 12:04:12 2020
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org>
CC: 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 12:03:56 -0700
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Subject: [Ace] Comments on the MQTT draft
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1.  I want to verify that the following is the desired statement:  There is
a strong preference that TLS not use PSK for authentication.  This follows
from the recommendation to use TLS:Anon-MQTT:ace for the authentication
option.  I have no problems with this statement, I just want to be sure that
the group as a whole is ok with this position.   I found that I implemented
the SHOULD NOT option for PSK to start with, but that is because I was
trying to be completist not because I think the position is wrong.

2.  While implementing I found that there did not appear to be a mandatory
to implement validation algorithm, one needs to be specified.

3.  After reading the log of bugs which have been showing up on the MQTT
code base that I have been using, I think there needs to be text put into
the document to deal with the clean session requirement that this profile is
enforcing.  I am seeing a lot of people who are relying on the fact they are
not reconnecting with clean session to get QoS information back from the
server in the event of unexpected disconnects.

4.  I keep going back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind in
the challenge response case.  I don't have the knowledge to be able to do a
formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to be
met without it.  However, having the binding included would most likely make
the proofs that much easier.  

Jim



From nobody Sun Mar  8 12:06:11 2020
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 12:06:02 -0700
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Subject: [Ace] Planning for the Vancouver Meeting
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It appears that the logistics for the upcoming meeting in Vancouver are
going to be more complicated than is normal.  To start with at the present
time it appears that neither of the chairs are going to be physically
present for the meeting.

Please let the chairs know if you desire to do a presentation for Vancouver.
We will need the following information:

1.  What document or proposed document are you addressing?
2.  How long do you think it is going to take?
3.  Are you planning to give the presentation locally or remotely?  If you
are going to be remote is there somebody who might be able to do it locally?

In addition to the normal volunteers for a Jabber Scribe (local) and one or
more notetakers (one local and others either local or remote), we are going
to need to get somebody to sit up at the front of the meeting and get slides
up and press buttons for meetecho.  If you can do any of these please let us
know that as well.

Jim & Daniel



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Subject: Re: [Ace] Comments on the MQTT draft
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Hello Jim,

Comments inline.

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 7:04 PM Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:

> 1.  I want to verify that the following is the desired statement:  There =
is
> a strong preference that TLS not use PSK for authentication.  This follow=
s
> from the recommendation to use TLS:Anon-MQTT:ace for the authentication
> option.  I have no problems with this statement, I just want to be sure
> that
> the group as a whole is ok with this position.   I found that I implement=
ed
> the SHOULD NOT option for PSK to start with, but that is because I was
> trying to be completist not because I think the position is wrong.
>

To tell the truth, I've put the RECOMMENDED as I believed it was expected
that I provide a recommendation.
Otherwise, any of the methods are OK (with some exceptions for anon:anon,
and over authenticating/authorising with the last mode).


>
> 2.  While implementing I found that there did not appear to be a mandator=
y
> to implement validation algorithm, one needs to be specified.
>

Do you mean mandatory-to-implement certificate validation policy?


>
> 3.  After reading the log of bugs which have been showing up on the MQTT
> code base that I have been using, I think there needs to be text put into
> the document to deal with the clean session requirement that this profile
> is
> enforcing.  I am seeing a lot of people who are relying on the fact they
> are
> not reconnecting with clean session to get QoS information back from the
> server in the event of unexpected disconnects.
>

Yes, I can see this can be problematic but this was to avoid the broker
keeping state for clients that are no more authorised to receive those
messages. The session state can include actual messages if QoS>=3D1, so may=
be
high overhead.

Session State in the Server consists of:

=C2=B7         The existence of a Session, even if the rest of the Session =
State
is empty.

=C2=B7         The Clients subscriptions, including any Subscription Identi=
fiers.

=C2=B7         QoS 1 and QoS 2 messages which have been sent to the Client,=
 but
have not been completely acknowledged.

=C2=B7         QoS 1 and QoS 2 messages pending transmission to the Client =
and
OPTIONALLY QoS 0 messages pending transmission to the Client.


The Session Expiry is also set by the client:

When a client connects with a long Session Expiry Interval, it is
requesting that the Server maintain its MQTT session state after it
disconnects for an extended period. Clients should only connect with a long
Session Expiry Interval if they intend to reconnect to the Server at some
later point in time. When a client has determined that it has no further
use for the Session it should disconnect with a Session Expiry Interval set
to 0.



>
> 4.  I keep going back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind =
in
> the challenge response case.  I don't have the knowledge to be able to do=
 a
> formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to b=
e
> met without it.  However, having the binding included would most likely
> make
> the proofs that much easier.




> Jim
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello Jim,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></di=
v><div>Comments inline.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr=
" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 7:04 PM Jim Schaad &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">1.=C2=A0 I want t=
o verify that the following is the desired statement:=C2=A0 There is<br>
a strong preference that TLS not use PSK for authentication.=C2=A0 This fol=
lows<br>
from the recommendation to use TLS:Anon-MQTT:ace for the authentication<br>
option.=C2=A0 I have no problems with this statement, I just want to be sur=
e that<br>
the group as a whole is ok with this position.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I found that I i=
mplemented<br>
the SHOULD NOT option for PSK to start with, but that is because I was<br>
trying to be completist not because I think the position is wrong.<br></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>To tell the truth, I&#39;ve put the RECOMMENDED=
 as I believed it was expected that I provide a recommendation.=C2=A0</div>=
<div>Otherwise, any of the methods are OK (with some exceptions for anon:an=
on, and over authenticating/authorising with the last mode).=C2=A0=C2=A0</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
2.=C2=A0 While implementing I found that there did not appear to be a manda=
tory<br>
to implement validation algorithm, one needs to be specified.<br></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>Do you mean mandatory-to-implement certificate valid=
ation policy?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
<br>
3.=C2=A0 After reading the log of bugs which have been showing up on the MQ=
TT<br>
code base that I have been using, I think there needs to be text put into<b=
r>
the document to deal with the clean session requirement that this profile i=
s<br>
enforcing.=C2=A0 I am seeing a lot of people who are relying on the fact th=
ey are<br>
not reconnecting with clean session to get QoS information back from the<br=
>
server in the event of unexpected disconnects.<br></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>Yes, I can see this can be problematic but this was to avoid the br=
oker keeping state for clients that are no more authorised to receive those=
 messages. The session state can include actual messages if QoS&gt;=3D1, so=
 maybe high overhead.=C2=A0</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n:4pt 0in;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Ses=
sion State in the Server consists of:</p><p class=3D"gmail-MsoListParagraph=
CxSpFirst" style=3D"margin:4pt 0in 0.0001pt 0.25in;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=
=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:no=
rmal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0</span></span>The existence of a Session, even if the rest of the Sessio=
n State is empty.</p><p class=3D"gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.25in;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7<span style=3D"=
font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:nor=
mal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></span>The =
Clients subscriptions, including any Subscription Identifiers.</p><p class=
=3D"gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.25=
in;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-variant-numeric:normal;f=
ont-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height=
:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></span>QoS 1 and QoS 2 messages which =
have been sent to the Client, but have not been completely acknowledged.</p=
><p class=3D"gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt 0.25in;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><=
span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-variant-numeric=
:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;li=
ne-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></span>QoS 1 and QoS 2 messag=
es pending transmission to the Client and OPTIONALLY QoS 0 messages pending=
 transmission to the Client.</p><p class=3D"gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddl=
e" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.25in;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial=
,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></p><p class=3D"gmail-MsoListParagraphCxS=
pMiddle" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.25in;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The Session Expiry is also set by the c=
lient:</p><p class=3D"gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt 0.25in;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(=
0,0,0)">When a client connects with a long Session Expiry Interval, it is r=
equesting that the Server maintain its MQTT session state after it disconne=
cts for an extended period. Clients should only connect with a long Session=
 Expiry Interval if they intend to reconnect to the Server at some later po=
int in time. When a client has determined that it has no further use for th=
e Session it should disconnect with a Session Expiry Interval set to 0.=C2=
=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span></p></div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.=C2=A0 I keep going back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bi=
nd in<br>
the challenge response case.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t have the knowledge to be abl=
e to do a<br>
formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to be<=
br>
met without it.=C2=A0 However, having the binding included would most likel=
y make<br>
the proofs that much easier.=C2=A0=C2=A0</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Jim<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
CC: <draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org>, 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Comments on the MQTT draft
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=20

=20

From: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>=20
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 3:30 PM
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org; Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Comments on the MQTT draft

=20

Hello Jim,

=20

Comments inline.

=20

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 7:04 PM Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com =
<mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com> > wrote:

1.  I want to verify that the following is the desired statement:  There =
is
a strong preference that TLS not use PSK for authentication.  This =
follows
from the recommendation to use TLS:Anon-MQTT:ace for the authentication
option.  I have no problems with this statement, I just want to be sure =
that
the group as a whole is ok with this position.   I found that I =
implemented
the SHOULD NOT option for PSK to start with, but that is because I was
trying to be completist not because I think the position is wrong.

=20

To tell the truth, I've put the RECOMMENDED as I believed it was =
expected that I provide a recommendation.=20

Otherwise, any of the methods are OK (with some exceptions for =
anon:anon, and over authenticating/authorising with the last mode). =20

=20

[JLS]  I approve of having a recommended method, that is one which =
everybody will implemented, I just want to ensure people think this is =
the right one.

=20


2.  While implementing I found that there did not appear to be a =
mandatory
to implement validation algorithm, one needs to be specified.

=20

Do you mean mandatory-to-implement certificate validation policy?

=20

[JLS]  What cryptographic algorithm is used to implement the =
hash/signature for the two authentication methods =E2=80=93 it can be =
the same for both.


3.  After reading the log of bugs which have been showing up on the MQTT
code base that I have been using, I think there needs to be text put =
into
the document to deal with the clean session requirement that this =
profile is
enforcing.  I am seeing a lot of people who are relying on the fact they =
are
not reconnecting with clean session to get QoS information back from the
server in the event of unexpected disconnects.

=20

Yes, I can see this can be problematic but this was to avoid the broker =
keeping state for clients that are no more authorised to receive those =
messages. The session state can include actual messages if QoS>=3D1, so =
maybe high overhead.=20

Session State in the Server consists of:

*         The existence of a Session, even if the rest of the Session =
State is empty.

*         The Clients subscriptions, including any Subscription =
Identifiers.

*         QoS 1 and QoS 2 messages which have been sent to the Client, =
but have not been completely acknowledged.

*         QoS 1 and QoS 2 messages pending transmission to the Client =
and OPTIONALLY QoS 0 messages pending transmission to the Client.

=20

The Session Expiry is also set by the client:

When a client connects with a long Session Expiry Interval, it is =
requesting that the Server maintain its MQTT session state after it =
disconnects for an extended period. Clients should only connect with a =
long Session Expiry Interval if they intend to reconnect to the Server =
at some later point in time. When a client has determined that it has no =
further use for the Session it should disconnect with a Session Expiry =
Interval set to 0. =20

=20

[JLS] All of that makes a great deal of sense to me.   What if a session =
expires when a token expires independent of the client=E2=80=99s request =
for a long session expiry interval.  After all, if the token is the =
identity then if the token expires you can no longer prove you are the =
same person and thus can have the same session back.   You probably need =
some weasel text about allowing for an expired session to get a new =
token if it is kept open perhaps, but I have not looked exactly when a =
connection would be forced closed due to token expiration yet.

=20

=20


4.  I keep going back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind =
in
the challenge response case.  I don't have the knowledge to be able to =
do a
formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to =
be
met without it.  However, having the binding included would most likely =
make
the proofs that much easier. =20

=20


Jim




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class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> =
Cigdem Sengul &lt;cigdem.sengul@gmail.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, =
March 8, 2020 3:30 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jim Schaad =
&lt;ietf@augustcellars.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org; Ace Wg =
&lt;ace@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Comments on the MQTT =
draft<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Jim,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Comments inline.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 7:04 PM Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>1.&nbsp; =
I want to verify that the following is the desired statement:&nbsp; =
There is<br>a strong preference that TLS not use PSK for =
authentication.&nbsp; This follows<br>from the recommendation to use =
TLS:Anon-MQTT:ace for the authentication<br>option.&nbsp; I have no =
problems with this statement, I just want to be sure that<br>the group =
as a whole is ok with this position.&nbsp; &nbsp;I found that I =
implemented<br>the SHOULD NOT option for PSK to start with, but that is =
because I was<br>trying to be completist not because I think the =
position is wrong.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To tell the truth, I've put the RECOMMENDED as I =
believed it was expected that I provide a =
recommendation.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Otherwise, any of the methods are OK (with some =
exceptions for anon:anon, and over authenticating/authorising with the =
last mode).&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[JLS]=C2=A0 =
I approve of having a recommended method, that is one which everybody =
will implemented, I just want to ensure people think this is the right =
one.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>2.&nbsp; While implementing I found that there did =
not appear to be a mandatory<br>to implement validation algorithm, one =
needs to be specified.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Do you mean mandatory-to-implement certificate =
validation policy?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[JLS]=C2=A0 =
What cryptographic algorithm is used to implement the hash/signature for =
the two authentication methods =E2=80=93 it can be the same for =
both.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>3.&nbsp; After reading the log of bugs which have =
been showing up on the MQTT<br>code base that I have been using, I think =
there needs to be text put into<br>the document to deal with the clean =
session requirement that this profile is<br>enforcing.&nbsp; I am seeing =
a lot of people who are relying on the fact they are<br>not reconnecting =
with clean session to get QoS information back from the<br>server in the =
event of unexpected disconnects.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Yes, I can see this can be problematic but this was to =
avoid the broker keeping state for clients that are no more authorised =
to receive those messages. The session state can include actual messages =
if QoS&gt;=3D1, so maybe high =
overhead.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:4.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:4.0pt;ma=
rgin-left:0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Ses=
sion State in the Server consists of:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:4.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;marg=
in-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black'>=C2=B7</span><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The=
 existence of a Session, even if the rest of the Session State is =
empty.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3Dgmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black'>=C2=B7</span><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The=
 Clients subscriptions, including any Subscription =
Identifiers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3Dgmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black'>=C2=B7</span><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>QoS=
 1 and QoS 2 messages which have been sent to the Client, but have not =
been completely acknowledged.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:black'>=C2=B7</span><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>QoS=
 1 and QoS 2 messages pending transmission to the Client and OPTIONALLY =
QoS 0 messages pending transmission to the =
Client.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3Dgmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3Dgmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The=
 Session Expiry is also set by the client:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Whe=
n a client connects with a long Session Expiry Interval, it is =
requesting that the Server maintain its MQTT session state after it =
disconnects for an extended period. Clients should only connect with a =
long Session Expiry Interval if they intend to reconnect to the Server =
at some later point in time. When a client has determined that it has no =
further use for the Session it should disconnect with a Session Expiry =
Interval set to 0.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[JLS] All of =
that makes a great deal of sense to me. =C2=A0=C2=A0What if a session =
expires when a token expires independent of the client=E2=80=99s request =
for a long session expiry interval.=C2=A0 After all, if the token is the =
identity then if the token expires you can no longer prove you are the =
same person and thus can have the same session back.=C2=A0=C2=A0 You =
probably need some weasel text about allowing for an expired session to =
get a new token if it is kept open perhaps, but I have not looked =
exactly when a connection would be forced closed due to token expiration =
yet.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>4.&nbsp; I keep going back and forth on a =
recommendation that we channel bind in<br>the challenge response =
case.&nbsp; I don't have the knowledge to be able to do a<br>formal =
proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to =
be<br>met without it.&nbsp; However, having the binding included would =
most likely make<br>the proofs that much =
easier.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Jim<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote=
></div></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_027F_01D5F56C.428BD0F0--


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From: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:35:23 +0000
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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Comments on the MQTT draft
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--0000000000004f6ad805a06b3dd3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Jim,
Comments inline.


Yes, I can see this can be problematic but this was to avoid the broker
> keeping state for clients that are no more authorised to receive those
> messages. The session state can include actual messages if QoS>=3D1, so m=
aybe
> high overhead.
>
>
> The Session Expiry is also set by the client:
>
>
> [JLS] All of that makes a great deal of sense to me.   What if a session
> expires when a token expires independent of the client=E2=80=99s request =
for a long
> session expiry interval.  After all, if the token is the identity then if
> the token expires you can no longer prove you are the same person and thu=
s
> can have the same session back.   You probably need some weasel text abou=
t
> allowing for an expired session to get a new token if it is kept open
> perhaps, but I have not looked exactly when a connection would be forced
> closed due to token expiration yet.
>
>
>
[CS] Yes. We opted for not keeping any state because that indeed had too
many problematic issues. One was, as I already mentioned, extra state kept
for a time determined by the client (session expiry) - which we thought
would cause trouble. There are some non-normative text in MQTT spec about
how the server storage limits or admin policies can overwrite client-set
expiry.
The other issue is that the broker checks existing session with the (MQTT)
Client Identifier. This info is not burned into the token (note that this
client id is different than ACE client id used for e.g., authenticating to
AS)
So, I feel that is problematic as well...
So, there is a security-qos trade-off.


>
>
>
> 4.  I keep going back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind =
in
> the challenge response case.  I don't have the knowledge to be able to do=
 a
> formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to b=
e
> met without it.  However, having the binding included would most likely
> make
> the proofs that much easier.
>
>
[CS] I am confused about this as well. Because, as we discussed in the
interim meeting, the exporter-based
flow only works at the connection time, and not for reauthentication (that
is why we kept the challenge/response flow).
I am aiming to submit the v04 - but I will probably need to submit v05 to
clarify all this.

 Thanks,
-Cigdem

>
>
>
> Jim
>
>

--0000000000004f6ad805a06b3dd3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello Jim,</div><div>Comments inline.</div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=
=3D"gmail-m_-8156791554333282705WordSection1"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Y=
es, I can see this can be problematic but this was to avoid the broker keep=
ing state for clients that are no more authorised to receive those messages=
. The session state can include actual messages if QoS&gt;=3D1, so maybe hi=
gh overhead.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:4pt;margin-left:0in"><br></p><p class=3D=
"gmail-m_-8156791554333282705gmail-msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:=
0in;margin-left:0.25in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10p=
t;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">The Session Expiry is also set =
by the client:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"gmail-m_-815679155433328=
2705gmail-msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.25in;ma=
rgin-bottom:0.0001pt"><br></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[JLS] All o=
f that makes a great deal of sense to me. =C2=A0=C2=A0What if a session exp=
ires when a token expires independent of the client=E2=80=99s request for a=
 long session expiry interval.=C2=A0 After all, if the token is the identit=
y then if the token expires you can no longer prove you are the same person=
 and thus can have the same session back.=C2=A0=C2=A0 You probably need som=
e weasel text about allowing for an expired session to get a new token if i=
t is kept open perhaps, but I have not looked exactly when a connection wou=
ld be forced closed due to token expiration yet.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></div></blockquote><div>[CS] Ye=
s. We opted for not keeping any state because that indeed had too many prob=
lematic issues. One was, as I already mentioned, extra state kept for a tim=
e determined by the client (session expiry) - which we thought would cause =
trouble. There are some non-normative text in MQTT spec about how the serve=
r storage limits or admin policies can overwrite client-set expiry.=C2=A0</=
div><div>The other issue is that the broker checks existing session with th=
e (MQTT) Client Identifier. This info is not burned into the token (note th=
at this client id is different than ACE client id used for e.g., authentica=
ting to AS)</div><div>So, I feel that is problematic as well...=C2=A0</div>=
<div>So, there is a security-qos trade-off.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div=
 class=3D"gmail-m_-8156791554333282705WordSection1"><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><=
/div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:n=
one;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-l=
eft:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>4.=C2=A0 I keep goin=
g back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind in<br>the challen=
ge response case.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t have the knowledge to be able to do a<b=
r>formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to b=
e<br>met without it.=C2=A0 However, having the binding included would most =
likely make<br>the proofs that much easier.=C2=A0 </p></blockquote></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[CS] I am confused about this as well.=
 Because, as we discussed in the interim meeting, the exporter-based</div><=
div>flow only works at the connection time, and not for reauthentication (t=
hat is why we kept the challenge/response flow).=C2=A0</div><div>I am aimin=
g to submit the v04 - but I will probably need to submit v05 to clarify all=
 this.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0Thanks,</div><div>-Cigdem=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"=
><div class=3D"gmail-m_-8156791554333282705WordSection1"><blockquote style=
=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right=
:0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"bo=
rder-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"border-=
top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>Jim<br><br><u></u><u></u=
></p></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000004f6ad805a06b3dd3--


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Subject: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : MQTT-TLS profile of ACE
        Authors         : Cigdem Sengul
                          Anthony Kirby
                          Paul Fremantle
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2020-03-09

Abstract:
   This document specifies a profile for the ACE (Authentication and
   Authorization for Constrained Environments) framework to enable
   authorization in an MQTT-based publish-subscribe messaging system.
   Proof-of-possession keys, bound to OAuth2.0 access tokens, are used
   to authenticate and authorize MQTT Clients.  The protocol relies on
   TLS for confidentiality and MQTT server (broker) authentication.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:43:44 +0000
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--0000000000004f44d705a06d0854
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hello,

As discussed in the interim, I've submitted a v04.
There are a few things, which may still merit a v05, but we did the
following updates on v04. The changes include:

   -  Linked the terms Broker and MQTT server more at the introduction of
the document.
   - Clarified support for MQTTv3.1.1 and removed phrases that might be
considered as MQTTv5 is backward compatible with MQTTv3.1.1
    - Corrected the Informative and Normative references.
    - For AS discovery, clarified the CONNECT message omits the
Authentication Data field.
    - Specified the User Property MUST be set to "ace_as_hint" for AS
Request Creation Hints.
     - Added that MQTT v5 brokers MAY also implement reduced interactions
described for MQTTv3.1.1.
     - Added to Section 3.1, in case of an authorisation failure and QoS
level 0, the RS sends a DISCONNECT with reason code '0x87 (Not authorized)'.
      - Added a pointer to section 4.7 of MQTTv5 spec for more information
on topic names and filters.
      - Added HS256 and RS256 are mandatory to implement depending on the
choice of symmetric or asymmetric validation.
      - Added MQTT to the TLS exporter label to make it application
specific: 'EXPORTER-ACE-MQTT-Sign-Challenge'.
      -  Added a format for Authentication Data so that length values
prefix the token (or client nonce) when Authentication Data contains more
than one piece of information.
       - Clarified clients still connect over TLS (server-side) for the
authz-info flow.

Thanks,
--Cigdem

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 2:39 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04.txt
To: Anthony Kirby <anthony@anthony.org>, Cigdem Sengul <csengul@acm.org>,
Paul Fremantle <paul.fremantle@port.ac.uk>



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04.txt
has been successfully submitted by Cigdem Sengul and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile
Revision:       04
Title:          MQTT-TLS profile of ACE
Document date:  2020-03-09
Group:          ace
Pages:          28
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile
Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04

Abstract:
   This document specifies a profile for the ACE (Authentication and
   Authorization for Constrained Environments) framework to enable
   authorization in an MQTT-based publish-subscribe messaging system.
   Proof-of-possession keys, bound to OAuth2.0 access tokens, are used
   to authenticate and authorize MQTT Clients.  The protocol relies on
   TLS for confidentiality and MQTT server (broker) authentication.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--0000000000004f44d705a06d0854
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<div><br></div><div>As discussed in the interim, I&#=
39;ve submitted a v04.=C2=A0<br><div>There are a few things, which may stil=
l merit a v05, but we did the following updates on v04. The changes include=
:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 Linked the=
 terms Broker and MQTT server more at the introduction of the document.<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarified support for MQTTv3.1.1 and removed phrases that mi=
ght be considered as MQTTv5 is backward compatible with MQTTv3.1.1<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 - Corrected the Informative and Normative references.<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 - For AS discovery, clarified the CONNECT message omits the Authenti=
cation Data field.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Specified the User Property MUST be s=
et to &quot;ace_as_hint&quot; for AS Request Creation Hints.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0- Added that MQTT v5 brokers MAY also implement reduced interacti=
ons described for MQTTv3.1.1.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Added to Section 3.1=
, in case of an authorisation failure and QoS level 0, the RS sends a DISCO=
NNECT with reason code &#39;0x87 (Not authorized)&#39;.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 - Added a pointer to section 4.7 of MQTTv5 spec for more information=
 on topic names and filters.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Added HS256 and RS25=
6 are mandatory to implement depending on the choice of symmetric or asymme=
tric validation.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Added MQTT to the TLS exporter l=
abel to make it application specific: &#39;EXPORTER-ACE-MQTT-Sign-Challenge=
&#39;.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=C2=A0 Added a format for Authentication Da=
ta so that length values prefix the token (or client nonce) when Authentica=
tion Data contains more than one piece of information.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0- Clarified clients still connect over TLS (server-side) for the =
authz-info flow.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--Cigdem=
=C2=A0<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;</span><br>Date: Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 2:39 PM<br>Subject: New Version Notif=
ication for draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04.txt<br>To: Anthony Kirby &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:anthony@anthony.org">anthony@anthony.org</a>&gt;, Cigdem=
 Sengul &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:csengul@acm.org">csengul@acm.org</a>&gt;, Pau=
l Fremantle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul.fremantle@port.ac.uk">paul.fremantle=
@port.ac.uk</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Cigdem Sengul and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profi=
le<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A004<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MQTT-TLS profile of ACE<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2020-03-09<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ace<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 28<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04.txt" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ace-mq=
tt-tls-profile-04.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile/</a>=
<br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile<=
/a><br>
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-04" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls=
-profile-04</a><br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies a profile for the ACE (Authentication =
and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Authorization for Constrained Environments) framework to enabl=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0authorization in an MQTT-based publish-subscribe messaging sys=
tem.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Proof-of-possession keys, bound to OAuth2.0 access tokens, are=
 used<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to authenticate and authorize MQTT Clients.=C2=A0 The protocol=
 relies on<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLS for confidentiality and MQTT server (broker) authenticatio=
n.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></div></div>

--0000000000004f44d705a06d0854--


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To: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
CC: <draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org>, 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Comments on the MQTT draft
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=20

=20

From: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>=20
Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 5:35 AM
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org; Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Comments on the MQTT draft

=20

Hello Jim,

Comments inline.

=20

=20

Yes, I can see this can be problematic but this was to avoid the broker =
keeping state for clients that are no more authorised to receive those =
messages. The session state can include actual messages if QoS>=3D1, so =
maybe high overhead.=20

=20

The Session Expiry is also set by the client:

=20

[JLS] All of that makes a great deal of sense to me.   What if a session =
expires when a token expires independent of the client=E2=80=99s request =
for a long session expiry interval.  After all, if the token is the =
identity then if the token expires you can no longer prove you are the =
same person and thus can have the same session back.   You probably need =
some weasel text about allowing for an expired session to get a new =
token if it is kept open perhaps, but I have not looked exactly when a =
connection would be forced closed due to token expiration yet.

=20

[CS] Yes. We opted for not keeping any state because that indeed had too =
many problematic issues. One was, as I already mentioned, extra state =
kept for a time determined by the client (session expiry) - which we =
thought would cause trouble. There are some non-normative text in MQTT =
spec about how the server storage limits or admin policies can overwrite =
client-set expiry.=20

The other issue is that the broker checks existing session with the =
(MQTT) Client Identifier. This info is not burned into the token (note =
that this client id is different than ACE client id used for e.g., =
authenticating to AS)

So, I feel that is problematic as well...=20

So, there is a security-qos trade-off.=20

=20

[JLS]  I was planning to put a pointer to the token into my session =
state so that it could be checked.  However, as I stated in the =
original.  This needs to be justified one way or the other in the =
document.=20

=20

=20


4.  I keep going back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind =
in
the challenge response case.  I don't have the knowledge to be able to =
do a
formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to =
be
met without it.  However, having the binding included would most likely =
make
the proofs that much easier. =20

=20

[CS] I am confused about this as well. Because, as we discussed in the =
interim meeting, the exporter-based

flow only works at the connection time, and not for reauthentication =
(that is why we kept the challenge/response flow).=20

I am aiming to submit the v04 - but I will probably need to submit v05 =
to clarify all this.=20

=20

[JLS]]  You can do the exporter at any time.  I was thinking in terms of =
signing the triple of <server challenge, client challenge, tls-exporter =
value>

=20

 Thanks,

-Cigdem=20

=20


Jim


------=_NextPart_000_0321_01D5F5F2.CC9DC4C0
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> =
Cigdem Sengul &lt;cigdem.sengul@gmail.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, =
March 9, 2020 5:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jim Schaad =
&lt;ietf@augustcellars.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org; Ace Wg =
&lt;ace@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Comments on the MQTT =
draft<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Jim,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Comments inline.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Yes, I can =
see this can be problematic but this was to avoid the broker keeping =
state for clients that are no more authorised to receive those messages. =
The session state can include actual messages if QoS&gt;=3D1, so maybe =
high overhead.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:4.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p><p class=3Dgmail-m-8156791554333282705gmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;marg=
in-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The=
 Session Expiry is also set by the client:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m-8156791554333282705gmail-msolistparagraph =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;marg=
in-left:.25in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>[JLS] All =
of that makes a great deal of sense to me. &nbsp;&nbsp;What if a session =
expires when a token expires independent of the client=E2=80=99s request =
for a long session expiry interval.&nbsp; After all, if the token is the =
identity then if the token expires you can no longer prove you are the =
same person and thus can have the same session back.&nbsp;&nbsp; You =
probably need some weasel text about allowing for an expired session to =
get a new token if it is kept open perhaps, but I have not looked =
exactly when a connection would be forced closed due to token expiration =
yet.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>[CS] =
Yes. We opted for not keeping any state because that indeed had too many =
problematic issues. One was, as I already mentioned, extra state kept =
for a time determined by the client (session expiry) - which we thought =
would cause trouble. There are some non-normative text in MQTT spec =
about how the server storage limits or admin policies can overwrite =
client-set expiry.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The other issue is that the broker checks existing =
session with the (MQTT) Client Identifier. This info is not burned into =
the token (note that this client id is different than ACE client id used =
for e.g., authenticating to AS)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So, I feel that is problematic as =
well...&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>So, there is =
a security-qos trade-off.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[JLS]=C2=A0 =
I was planning to put a pointer to the token into my session state so =
that it could be checked.=C2=A0 However, as I stated in the =
original.=C2=A0 This needs to be justified one way or the other in the =
document. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>4.&nbsp;=
 I keep going back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind =
in<br>the challenge response case.&nbsp; I don't have the knowledge to =
be able to do a<br>formal proof, but I think that all of necessary =
conditions are going to be<br>met without it.&nbsp; However, having the =
binding included would most likely make<br>the proofs that much =
easier.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[CS] I am confused about this as well. Because, as we =
discussed in the interim meeting, the =
exporter-based<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>flow only =
works at the connection time, and not for reauthentication (that is why =
we kept the challenge/response flow).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I am aiming to submit the v04 - but I will probably =
need to submit v05 to clarify all this.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[JLS]]=C2=A0 =
You can do the exporter at any time.=C2=A0 I was thinking in terms of =
signing the triple of &lt;server challenge, client challenge, =
tls-exporter value&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-Cigdem&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Jim<o:p></o:p>=
</p></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html=
>
------=_NextPart_000_0321_01D5F5F2.CC9DC4C0--


From nobody Mon Mar  9 09:44:13 2020
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : OSCORE profile of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments Framework
        Authors         : Francesca Palombini
                          Ludwig Seitz
                          Göran Selander
                          Martin Gunnarsson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-10.txt
	Pages           : 30
	Date            : 2020-03-09

Abstract:
   This memo specifies a profile for the Authentication and
   Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) framework.  It
   utilizes Object Security for Constrained RESTful Environments
   (OSCORE) to provide communication security, server authentication,
   and proof-of-possession for a key owned by the client and bound to an
   OAuth 2.0 access token.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Key Provisioning for Group Communication using ACE
        Authors         : Francesca Palombini
                          Marco Tiloca
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-05.txt
	Pages           : 50
	Date            : 2020-03-09

Abstract:
   This document defines message formats and procedures for requesting
   and distributing group keying material using the ACE framework, to
   protect communications between group members.


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Key Management for OSCORE Groups in ACE
        Authors         : Marco Tiloca
                          Jiye Park
                          Francesca Palombini
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore-05.txt
	Pages           : 38
	Date            : 2020-03-09

Abstract:
   This specification defines an application profile of the ACE
   framework for Authentication and Authorization, to request and
   provision keying material in group communication scenarios that are
   based on CoAP and secured with Group Object Security for Constrained
   RESTful Environments (OSCORE).  This application profile delegates
   the authentication and authorization of Clients that join an OSCORE
   group through a Resource Server acting as Group Manager for that
   group.  This application profile leverages protocol-specific
   transport profiles of ACE to achieve communication security, server
   authentication and proof-of-possession for a key owned by the Client
   and bound to an OAuth 2.0 access token.


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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-03
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From: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 23:28:53 +0000
Message-ID: <CAA7SwCO=dLhYDTgETj7Aa86aQ9QS7thKsdrkdshLyOU4bYcfNg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-03
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--00000000000060edb105a0745e5b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Hello Hannes,

I will summarise below what I understood and clarify where I got confused
(which I tried to in the interim meeting)
 and then would need the group feedback for the next steps.

I became aware that the key distribution may be an issue after the
e-mail thread: "Transporting different types of cnf objects - CBOR vs JSON"
that spanned June-Oct, 2019, in the ace mailing list, where you wrote:
"We have standardized the transport of this additional information in ACE f=
or
use with CoAP but for HTTP we decided to do the work on OAuth, where it got
stuck because the IoT-interested people are not there and the Web folks
want something else."

Then, I was under the impression that I would need to wait for the
draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution-07>.
(Even though the prototype implementation I used worked with HTTP/JSON
equivalent for COAP/CBOR in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz )

That's why is responded to this email thread saying I am aware of the
issue.
After Jim's email, I understood that the issue may be resolved.

For the MQTT-TLS profile, the following is needed:
1) To be able to use HTTP to talk to AS for /token and /introspect
interfaces. I was aware that this was supported now
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz:
    "If the RS is online, validation can be handed over to the AS using
token introspection (see messages D and E) over HTTP or CoAP".
    In 5.6 Token endpoint: "The endpoint may, however, be exposed over
HTTPS as in classical OAuth or even other transports."

2) mqtt_tls draft introduces the ace+json media type, as  Jim wrote: "I
would argue that the first draft using such a media type would be the
right place
to specify it. " in the thread "Transporting different types of cnf objects
- CBOR vs JSON".

3)  What I wasn't aware, and realised after Jim's email was that
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params, which defines the cnf and rs_cnf
parameters say, supports JSON:
"Note that although all examples are shown in CBOR [RFC7049],
JSON [RFC8259] MAY be used as an alternative for HTTP-based
   communications, as specified in [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz]."

I may be missing something but what is left for MQTT-TLS profile to define
when  draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz  +   draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params put
together?


Kind regards,
--Cigdem








On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 8:01 PM Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com=
>
wrote:

> Hi Cigdem,
>
>
>
> Following the OAuth virtual interim meeting call today I wonder whether i=
t
> makes sense to describe how the key transport with the PoP token using th=
e
> communication between the client and the authorization server over the HT=
TP
> interface works.
>
>
>
> Ciao
>
> Hannes
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Hannes Tschofenig
> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:08 AM
> *To:* Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* ace@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Ace] draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-03
>
>
>
>    - I plan to join. I  have been aware of the issue, but could not
>    follow how it was planned to be resolved.
>    - I was looking at this: draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution
>
>
>
> Yes, that=E2=80=99s what the group wanted to do. Now, new ideas showed up=
 on the
> radar that are incompatible with that approach that offer a much tighter
> integration with HTTP signing.
>
>
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>

--00000000000060edb105a0745e5b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello Hannes,<div><div><br></div></div><div>I will summari=
se below what I understood and clarify where I got confused (which I tried =
to in the interim meeting)</div><div>=C2=A0and then would need the group fe=
edback for the next steps.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I became aware th=
at the key distribution may be an issue after the e-mail=C2=A0thread: &quot=
;<font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(32,33,36);font-v=
ariant-ligatures:no-contextual">Transporting different types of cnf objects=
 - CBOR vs=C2=A0</span><span class=3D"gmail-il" style=3D"color:rgb(32,33,36=
);font-variant-ligatures:no-contextual">JSON&quot; that spanned June-Oct, 2=
019, in the ace mailing list, where you wrote:</span></font></div><div><fon=
t face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"gmail-il" style=3D"color:rgb(32=
,33,36);font-variant-ligatures:no-contextual">&quot;</span></font>We have s=
tandardized the transport of this additional information in=C2=A0<span clas=
s=3D"gmail-il">ACE</span>=C2=A0for use with CoAP but for HTTP we decided to=
 do the work on OAuth, where it got stuck because the IoT-interested people=
 are not there and the Web folks want something else.&quot;</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Then, I was under the impression that I would need to wait for th=
e=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-dist=
ribution-07">draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution</a>.=C2=A0</div><div>(Ev=
en though the prototype implementation I used worked with HTTP/JSON equival=
ent for COAP/CBOR in=20

draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz

)</div><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s why is responded to this email thread=
 saying I am aware of the issue.=C2=A0</div><div>After Jim&#39;s email, I u=
nderstood that the issue may be resolved.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Fo=
r the MQTT-TLS profile, the following is needed:</div><div>1) To be able to=
 use HTTP to talk to AS for /token and /introspect interfaces. I was aware =
that this was supported now in=C2=A0draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz:=C2=A0</div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;If the RS is online, validation can be handed over=
 to the AS using token introspection (see messages D and E) over HTTP or Co=
AP&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In 5.6 Token endpoint: &quot;The en=
dpoint may, however, be exposed over HTTPS as in classical OAuth or even ot=
her transports.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>2) mqtt_tls draft introduces=
 the ace+json media type, as=C2=A0 Jim wrote: &quot;<span style=3D"color:rg=
b(80,0,80)">I would argue that the first draft using such a media type woul=
d be the right=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80)">place to spec=
ify it.</span>=C2=A0&quot; in the thread &quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(32,=
33,36);font-variant-ligatures:no-contextual">Transporting different types o=
f cnf objects - CBOR vs=C2=A0</span><span class=3D"gmail-il" style=3D"color=
:rgb(32,33,36);font-variant-ligatures:no-contextual">JSON&quot;.</span></di=
v><div><span class=3D"gmail-il" style=3D"color:rgb(32,33,36);font-variant-l=
igatures:no-contextual"><br></span></div><div>3)=C2=A0 What I wasn&#39;t aw=
are, and realised after Jim&#39;s email was that draft-ietf-ace-oauth-param=
s, which defines the cnf and rs_cnf parameters=C2=A0say, supports JSON:</di=
v><div>&quot;Note that although all examples are shown in CBOR [RFC7049], J=
SON=C2=A0[RFC8259] MAY be used as an alternative for HTTP-based<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0communications, as specified in [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz].&quot;</di=
v><div><br></div><div>I may be missing something but what is left for MQTT-=
TLS profile to define when=C2=A0

draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz=C2=A0=C2=A0+=C2=A0=C2=A0

draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params put together?</div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>Kind regards,</div><div>--Cigdem=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 8:01 PM Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" target=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Cigdem, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Following the OAuth virtual interim meeting call tod=
ay I wonder whether it makes sense to describe how the key transport with t=
he PoP token using the communication between the client and the authorizati=
on server over the HTTP interface
 works. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Hannes Tschofenig <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 28, 2020 11:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Cigdem Sengul &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cigdem.sengul@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">cigdem.sengul@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ace@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Ace] draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-03<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li style=3D"margin-left:0in">I plan to join. I=C2=A0 have been aware of th=
e issue, but could not follow how it was planned to be resolved.=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></li><div>
<li style=3D"margin-left:0in">I was looking at this:=C2=A0<span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;color:black">draft-ietf-oauth-p=
op-key-distribution</span><u></u><u></u></li></div>
</ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">Yes, that=E2=80=99s what=
 the group wanted to do. Now, new ideas showed up on the radar that are inc=
ompatible with that approach that offer a much tighter integration with HTT=
P signing.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">Ciao<br>
Hannes<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--00000000000060edb105a0745e5b--


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Subject: [Ace] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8747_on_Proof-of-Possession_Key_Semantics_fo?= =?utf-8?q?r_CBOR_Web_Tokens_=28CWTs=29?=
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 8747

        Title:      Proof-of-Possession Key Semantics for
                    CBOR Web Tokens (CWTs) 
        Author:     M. Jones, 
                    L. Seitz,
                    G. Selander, 
                    S. Erdtman,
                    H. Tschofenig
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       March 2020
        Mailbox:    mbj@microsoft.com, 
                    ludwig.seitz@combitech.se, 
                    goran.selander@ericsson.com,
                    erdtman@spotify.com, 
                    Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
        Pages:      14
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8747

        DOI:        10.17487/RFC8747

This specification describes how to declare in a CBOR Web Token (CWT)
(which is defined by RFC 8392) that the presenter of the CWT
possesses a particular proof-of-possession key. Being able to prove
possession of a key is also sometimes described as being the
holder-of-key. This specification provides equivalent functionality
to "Proof-of-Possession Key Semantics for JSON Web Tokens (JWTs)"
(RFC 7800) but using Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) and
CWTs rather than JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) and JSON Web
Tokens (JWTs).

This document is a product of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Official
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Thread-Topic: Proof-of-Possession Key Semantics for CBOR Web Tokens (CWTs) is now RFC 8747
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Subject: [Ace] Proof-of-Possession Key Semantics for CBOR Web Tokens (CWTs) is now RFC 8747
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I'm pleased to report that Proof-of-Possession Key Semantics for CBOR Web T=
okens (CWTs) is now RFC 8747<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8747.html>. =
 The abstract of the specification is:

This specification describes how to declare in a CBOR Web Token (CWT) (whic=
h is defined by RFC 8392) that the presenter of the CWT possesses a particu=
lar proof-of-possession key. Being able to prove possession of a key is als=
o sometimes described as being the holder-of-key. This specification provid=
es equivalent functionality to "Proof-of-Possession Key Semantics for JSON =
Web Tokens (JWTs)" (RFC 7800) but using Concise Binary Object Representatio=
n (CBOR) and CWTs rather than JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) and JSON We=
b Tokens (JWTs).

This is one of a series of specifications, including CWT [RFC 8392<https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8392>] - which mirrors JWT [RFC 7519<https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/rfc7519>], in which we are intentionally bringing functionalit=
y that is available in JSON to the CBOR and IoT world.

                                                       -- Mike

P.S.  This notice was also posted at https://self-issued.info/?p=3D2066 and=
 as @selfissued<https://twitter.com/selfissued>.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m pleased to report that Proof-of-Possession=
 Key Semantics for CBOR Web Tokens (CWTs) is now
<a href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8747.html">RFC 8747</a>.&nbsp;=
 The abstract of the specification is:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><i>This specification =
describes how to declare in a CBOR Web Token (CWT) (which is defined by RFC=
 8392) that the presenter of the CWT possesses a particular proof-of-posses=
sion key. Being able to prove possession
 of a key is also sometimes described as being the holder-of-key. This spec=
ification provides equivalent functionality to &quot;Proof-of-Possession Ke=
y Semantics for JSON Web Tokens (JWTs)&quot; (RFC 7800) but using Concise B=
inary Object Representation (CBOR) and CWTs
 rather than JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) and JSON Web Tokens (JWTs).<=
o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is one of a series of specifications, including=
 CWT [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8392">RFC 8392</a>] &#8211;=
 which mirrors JWT [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519">RFC 751=
9</a>], in which we are intentionally bringing
 functionality that is available in JSON to the CBOR and IoT world.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">P.S.&nbsp; This notice was also posted at <a href=3D=
"https://self-issued.info/?p=3D2066">
https://self-issued.info/?p=3D2066</a> and as <a href=3D"https://twitter.co=
m/selfissued">
@selfissued</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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References: <025901d5f57c$532214f0$f9663ed0$@augustcellars.com> <CAA7SwCOZgicd807_zMjE=4sB2AbeWfA+6yjWD0qMYrrQau90mA@mail.gmail.com> <027e01d5f5a6$eee5c6f0$ccb154d0$@augustcellars.com> <CAA7SwCNi0Gs3RdM9azTJoq2t9=UZdPQWgjSq=FTc+y7bKB+BwQ@mail.gmail.com> <032001d5f62d$78fc0080$6af40180$@augustcellars.com>
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From: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:39:42 +0000
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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Comments on the MQTT draft
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--00000000000072ab0505a07dbdea
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

>
>
> [CS] Yes. We opted for not keeping any state because that indeed had too
> many problematic issues. One was, as I already mentioned, extra state kept
> for a time determined by the client (session expiry) - which we thought
> would cause trouble. There are some non-normative text in MQTT spec about
> how the server storage limits or admin policies can overwrite client-set
> expiry.
>
> The other issue is that the broker checks existing session with the (MQTT)
> Client Identifier. This info is not burned into the token (note that this
> client id is different than ACE client id used for e.g., authenticating to
> AS)
>
> So, I feel that is problematic as well...
>
> So, there is a security-qos trade-off.
>
>
>
> [JLS]  I was planning to put a pointer to the token into my session state
> so that it could be checked.  However, as I stated in the original.  This
> needs to be justified one way or the other in the document.
>
>
>

[CS]  I added some text to the v04 of the document to explain the reasons
behind having clean session.
However, I am wondering whether MUST is too strong, and whether to opt for
SHOULD, and make other SHOULDs on broker behaviour i.e.,
1) Session state includes information of the token used in the session.
2) There is a MAX session expiry set by the broker admin policy allowing
capping what the client puts for session expiry.
3)  The client still submits a token in every CONNECT - the broker checks
if the token matches the current token (may or may not introspect in case
of a token match); if new token, validate token, replace the session token.
4)  Session state is updated: Subscription Identifiers, that are part of
the session state, validated if new permissions. (Although it will do this
anyway when publishing a packet to the subscriber. )
     Pending messages are re-evaluated based on permissions.

>
>
>
> 4.  I keep going back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind in
> the challenge response case.  I don't have the knowledge to be able to do a
> formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to be
> met without it.  However, having the binding included would most likely
> make
> the proofs that much easier.
>
>
>
> [CS] I am confused about this as well. Because, as we discussed in the
> interim meeting, the exporter-based
>
> flow only works at the connection time, and not for reauthentication (that
> is why we kept the challenge/response flow).
>
> I am aiming to submit the v04 - but I will probably need to submit v05 to
> clarify all this.
>
>
>
> [JLS]]  You can do the exporter at any time.  I was thinking in terms of
> signing the triple of <server challenge, client challenge, tls-exporter
> value>
>
>
>
[CS] I seem to recall a reauthentication discussion in the interim, but
now, thinking again do not see why that was an issue.

 Thanks,
-Cigdem

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_21898786875253=
89370WordSection1"><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;b=
order-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0i=
n 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></=
blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[CS] Yes. We opted for not keeping a=
ny state because that indeed had too many problematic issues. One was, as I=
 already mentioned, extra state kept for a time determined by the client (s=
ession expiry) - which we thought would cause trouble. There are some non-n=
ormative text in MQTT spec about how the server storage limits or admin pol=
icies can overwrite client-set expiry.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal">The other issue is that the broker checks existing ses=
sion with the (MQTT) Client Identifier. This info is not burned into the to=
ken (note that this client id is different than ACE client id used for e.g.=
, authenticating to AS)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
So, I feel that is problematic as well...=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, there is a security-qos trade-off.=C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">[JLS]=C2=A0 I was planning to put a pointer to the token into my sess=
ion state so that it could be checked.=C2=A0 However, as I stated in the or=
iginal.=C2=A0 This needs to be justified one way or the other in the docume=
nt. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[CS]=C2=A0 I added some text to t=
he v04 of the document to explain the reasons behind having clean session.=
=C2=A0</div><div>However, I am wondering whether MUST is too strong, and wh=
ether to opt for SHOULD, and make other SHOULDs on broker behaviour i.e.,</=
div><div>1) Session state includes information of the token used in the ses=
sion.</div><div>2) There is a MAX session expiry set by the broker admin po=
licy allowing capping what the client puts for session expiry.=C2=A0</div><=
div>3)=C2=A0 The client still submits a token in every CONNECT - the broker=
 checks if the token matches the current token (may or may not introspect i=
n case of a token match); if new token, validate token, replace the session=
 token.=C2=A0</div><div>4)=C2=A0 Session state is updated:=C2=A0<span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px">Subs=
cription Identifiers, that are part of the session state, validated if new =
permissions. (Although it will do this anyway when publishing a packet to t=
he subscriber. )</span></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pending messages are =
re-evaluated based on permissions.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_218987868752=
5389370WordSection1"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p></div><b=
lockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bor=
der-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8=
pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border=
-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt=
;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>4.=C2=A0 I keep going=
 back and forth on a recommendation that we channel bind in<br>the challeng=
e response case.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t have the knowledge to be able to do a<br=
>formal proof, but I think that all of necessary conditions are going to be=
<br>met without it.=C2=A0 However, having the binding included would most l=
ikely make<br>the proofs that much easier.=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p></blockq=
uote></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u><=
/u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[CS] I am confused about this as w=
ell. Because, as we discussed in the interim meeting, the exporter-based<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">flow only works at the con=
nection time, and not for reauthentication (that is why we kept the challen=
ge/response flow).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>I am aiming to submit the v04 - but I will probably need to submit v05 to =
clarify all this.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[JLS]]=C2=A0 You can do the exporter a=
t any time.=C2=A0 I was thinking in terms of signing the triple of &lt;serv=
er challenge, client challenge, tls-exporter value&gt;<u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div>[CS] I seem to recall a reauthentication discussion in the interim=
, but now, thinking again do not see why that was an issue.=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div><div>=C2=A0Thanks,</div><div>-Cigdem=C2=A0</div></div></div>

--00000000000072ab0505a07dbdea--


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Subject: [Ace] [ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01.txt
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Hello ACE,

We have submitted an updated version of
draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-0=
1

The document describes how an Authorization Server can notify Clients
and Resource Servers of revoked but yet not expired Access Tokens. This
is achieved by means of a Token Revocation List (TRL) resource at the
AS, that a device can access and observe by using resource observation
for CoAP. The approach complements token introspection at the AS, and
does not require additional endpoints on Clients and Resource Servers.

This update is especially about:

1) Addressing the review at [1] from Travis and further additional input
from Jim (thank you both!).

2) Having a single TRL resource at the AS, rather than one per device as
in -00.

3) Handling administrators as special requesters.

4) Query of the TRL resource in full mode (all current revoked tokens)
or diff mode (just the latest recent updates concerning revoked tokens).

5) Improved security considerations.


Comments are very welcome.

Best,
/Marco

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/1UK5QuLh4kmzlH211JBtotdchfQ=
/


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for
draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01.txt
Date: 	Mon, 09 Mar 2020 12:25:20 -0700
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Grace Lewis <glewis@sei.cmu.edu>, Sebastian Echeverria
<secheverria@sei.cmu.edu>, Ludwig Seitz <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>,
Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>, Marco Tiloca
<marco.tiloca@ri.se>




A new version of I-D, draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Marco Tiloca and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification
Revision: 01
Title: Notification of Revoked Access Tokens in the Authentication and
Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) Framework
Document date: 2020-03-09
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 16
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notif=
ication-01.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notificat=
ion/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-0=
1
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-noti=
fication
Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notifi=
cation-01

Abstract:
This document specifies a method of the Authentication and
Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) framework, which
allows an Authorization Server to notify Clients and Resource Servers
(i.e., registered devices) about revoked Access Tokens. The method
relies on resource observation for the Constrained Application
Protocol (CoAP), with Clients and Resource Servers observing a Token
Revocation List on the Authorization Server. Resulting unsolicited
notifications of revoked Access Tokens complement alternative
approaches such as token introspection, while not requiring
additional endpoints on Clients and Resource Servers.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



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    <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
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    Hello ACE,<br>
    <br>
    We have submitted an updated version of
    draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification<br>
    <br>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01</a><br>
    <br>
    The document describes how an Authorization Server can notify
    Clients and Resource Servers of revoked but yet not expired Access
    Tokens. This is achieved by means of a Token Revocation List (TRL)
    resource at the AS, that a device can access and observe by using
    resource observation for CoAP. The approach complements token
    introspection at the AS, and does not require additional endpoints
    on Clients and Resource Servers.<br>
    <br>
    This update is especially about:<br>
    <br>
    1) Addressing the review at [1] from Travis and further additional
    input from Jim (thank you both!).<br>
    <br>
    2) Having a single TRL resource at the AS, rather than one per
    device as in -00.<br>
    <br>
    3) Handling administrators as special requesters.<br>
    <br>
    4) Query of the TRL resource in full mode (all current revoked
    tokens) or diff mode (just the latest recent updates concerning
    revoked tokens).<br>
    <br>
    5) Improved security considerations.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Comments are very welcome.<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    /Marco<br>
    <br>
    [1]
    <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.o=
rg/arch/msg/ace/1UK5QuLh4kmzlH211JBtotdchfQ/">https://mailarchive.ietf.or=
g/arch/msg/ace/1UK5QuLh4kmzlH211JBtotdchfQ/</a><br>
    <div class=3D"moz-forward-container"><br>
      <br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class=3D"moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing=3D"0"
        cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Sub=
ject:
            </th>
            <td>New Version Notification for
              draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Dat=
e: </th>
            <td>Mon, 09 Mar 2020 12:25:20 -0700</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Fro=
m: </th>
            <td><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:inte=
rnet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">To:=
 </th>
            <td>Grace Lewis <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"ma=
ilto:glewis@sei.cmu.edu">&lt;glewis@sei.cmu.edu&gt;</a>, Sebastian
              Echeverria <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailt=
o:secheverria@sei.cmu.edu">&lt;secheverria@sei.cmu.edu&gt;</a>, Ludwig Se=
itz
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:ludwig.se=
itz@combitech.se">&lt;ludwig.seitz@combitech.se&gt;</a>, Francesca Palomb=
ini
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:francesca=
=2Epalombini@ericsson.com">&lt;francesca.palombini@ericsson.com&gt;</a>, =
Marco Tiloca
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:marco.til=
oca@ri.se">&lt;marco.tiloca@ri.se&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      A new version of I-D,
      draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01.txt<br>
      has been successfully submitted by Marco Tiloca and posted to the<b=
r>
      IETF repository.<br>
      <br>
      Name: draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification<br>
      Revision: 01<br>
      Title: Notification of Revoked Access Tokens in the Authentication
      and Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) Framework<br>
      Document date: 2020-03-09<br>
      Group: Individual Submission<br>
      Pages: 16<br>
      URL:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-=
drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01.txt">https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01.txt=
</a><br>
      Status:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification/">https://datatracker.ietf=
=2Eorg/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification/</a><br>
      Htmlized:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01</a><br>
      Htmlized:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification</a><br>
      Diff:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?u=
rl2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01">https://www.ietf.or=
g/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-01</a><br>
      <br>
      Abstract:<br>
      This document specifies a method of the Authentication and<br>
      Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) framework, which<b=
r>
      allows an Authorization Server to notify Clients and Resource
      Servers<br>
      (i.e., registered devices) about revoked Access Tokens. The method<=
br>
      relies on resource observation for the Constrained Application<br>
      Protocol (CoAP), with Clients and Resource Servers observing a
      Token<br>
      Revocation List on the Authorization Server. Resulting unsolicited<=
br>
      notifications of revoked Access Tokens complement alternative<br>
      approaches such as token introspection, while not requiring<br>
      additional endpoints on Clients and Resource Servers.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
      submission<br>
      until the htmlized version and diff are available at
      tools.ietf.org.<br>
      <br>
      The IETF Secretariat<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

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To: Travis Spencer <travis.spencer@curity.io>, ace@ietf.org
References: <CAEKOcs2MN8Vgd8+UR76CVE1Qww0oCwev_vW0qwWVBEFsCP3YPw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Review of draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-00
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Hi Travis,

Thank you very much for your review! We have addressed it in the latest
submitted version -01

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-0=
1

Please, see some detailed replies inline below.

Best,
/Marco

On 2019-11-21 08:43, Travis Spencer wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I wanted to submit a review of "Notification of Revoked Access Tokens
> in the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments
> (ACE) Framework" (draft-tiloca-ace-revoked-token-notification-00).
>
> I am an ACE noob, but hopefully my feedback will be constructive and
> helpful. If they are not, it could be because of my ignorance of ACE.
> That said, I am an expert in OAuth, so that is my frame of reference.
>
> * The draft mixes casing and has inconsistent use of acronyms like RS,
> resource server, authorization server, AS, etc. This hangs me up as a
> reader. I'd appreciate if one was used for all or if none were used.

=3D=3D>MT
We have revised the whole text accordingly, opting for expanded
identifiers instead of acronyms.
<=3D=3D

>
> * I recommend an ASCII art be added to the protocol overview. I know
> that there are some good diagrams in the examples, but an overview
> figure in that section would be helpful as a reader as comes to terms
> with what the doc specifies and decide if it's relevant. It would also
> be helpful if this section ended with a link/reference to the example
> sections below (e.g., something like =E2=80=9Csee examples in section X=
 for
> more detailed flows=E2=80=9D).

=3D=3D>MT
We have added the new Figure 1, in Section 2.
<=3D=3D

>
> * In my strong opinion, It should not be assumed that the TRL endpoint
> is at the root of the URL path of the AS.
> https://example.com/tenant1/trl should be valid; also,
> https://example.com/my-good-trl should be a valid URI. This should be
> included in the OAuth metadata (if the AS supports this) or
> communicated to the client/RS by some undefined method (e.g.,
> documentation). The spec may recommend some URI and the non-normative
> examples can use whatever URI, but these must not be MTI.

=3D=3D>MT
Now the TRL endpoint is at /revoke/trl
<=3D=3D

>
> * The doc should not make any distinction between an OAuth client and
> resource server. This makes it very confusing IMHO. Instead, it should
> consider the caller/client of the TRL endpoint, regardless of what
> role that caller plays in an OAuth flow. This is similar to how
> introspection and other OAuth-related APIs are defined.

=3D=3D>MT
We have put the focus on tokens pertaining to a caller of the TRL endpoin=
t.
<=3D=3D

>
> * The TRL endpoint need not be per client/RS. The endpoint only
> exposes random hashes. Disclosing these to other parties will not pose
> a security issue (that I can think of). This will allow clients/RSes
> to collaborate in unforeseen ways that could be useful in certain
> deployments. This also means that the TRL endpoint will be global and
> not have a client-specific path segment in the path of the URI.

=3D=3D>MT
Based also on discussions with Jim, we have now a single TRL endpoint
for all the authorized callers. The AS recognizes the caller based on
the security identity used in their secure communication. That way, no
query parameters are needed to identify the exact caller.
<=3D=3D

>
> * The TRL endpoint should accept some method for filter based, for
> example, on client ID. This could be done using a query string
> argument like "client_id" which can be supplied 0..INF times. This
> will allow a monitoring client (like a NOC) to subscribed to
> revocation messages for multiple clients/RSes. If the "client_id" (or
> whatever) parameter is supplied, the caller of the TRL endpoint should
> be notified of ALL revoked tokens.

=3D=3D>MT
As above, the AS does identify the endpoint caller, but without using
query parameters.

However, query parameters are now used by a caller to distinguish
between full and diff queries (see Section 5).
<=3D=3D

>
> * If the idea above is accepted and the AS requires authentication of
> the TRL endpoint client, then the AS may automatically subscribe the
> client to notifications for just itself (which the AS knows the
> identity of the client due to authentication). This implicitly
> filtering may be beyond the scope of the doc, however, and I think
> that authentication in general should be dropped. If it remains
> though, this identification and implicit filter can be done
> irrespective of authentication scheme used.

=3D=3D>MT
The CoAP client has in fact to register for an observation to the CoAP
server. So it should not be possible for the AS to register observers by
itself.
<=3D=3D

>
> * I think that the token name term should be changed to token hash, so
> that it is more intuitively obvious what it is in case the term was
> skimmed over or missed.

=3D=3D>MT
Done.
<=3D=3D

>
> * Because the draft is only about non-revoked tokens, the RS/client
> still has to manage expired token checking. If the list included
> expired tokens as well, the RS/client could off-load all of this to
> the AS. This would make the development of the RS/client a lot simpler
> and push that complexity to the AS. This is keeping in the spirit and
> aim of OAuth. I've understood from Ludwig and Marco that this does
> introduce some issues in a CoAP environment, that I know nothing
> about. So, please take it as a suggestion and see what's best.

=3D=3D>MT
The problem is that, by doing so, the TRL resource would indefinitely
grow in size, as well as every portion of it pertaining to each
individual C/RS. Handling of expired Access Tokens should still be
handled as defined and recommended in the ACE framework document.
<=3D=3D

>
> * Clarify that the hashes in the CBOR array are unordered. CBOR has no
> set, I've been told, only arrays. Arrays are ordered though, so it
> should be stated that this ordering is irrelevant, and the subscriber
> should treat them as a set where the order has no significant meaning.

=3D=3D>MT
Done, both for the representation of the TRL resource and for the
payload of responses to endpoint callers.
<=3D=3D

>
> HTH!

=3D=3D>MT
It really does, thanks a lot again!
<=3D=3D

>
> --
>
> Travis Spencer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

--=20
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
Division ICT
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
https://www.ri.se



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Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02.txt
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Hello ACE,

We have submitted a major updated version of
draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02

The document describes a profile of ACE where client and server
communicate with Group OSCORE. This supports fine-grained access control
in group communication environments, where different group members have
different access rights to resources of other group members.

This update is mostly about:

1) Clarifying pre-conditions and purpose, as requested by Ben at IETF
106. That is, nodes are required to have joined the OSCORE group first,
while this profile is about access control within the group, among
current group members. Instead, access control for joining is covered in
a different document and is out of scope for this profile.

2) The document body now describing the profile as focused on Group
OSCORE as only security protocol. Message formats and examples are
updated accordingly.

3) Defining the document content of -01 as optional "dual mode", in
Appendix A. This dual mode considers both OSCORE and Group OSCORE as
security protocol.


Comments are very welcome!

Best,
/Marco


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for
draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02.txt
Date: 	Mon, 09 Mar 2020 12:27:13 -0700
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Rikard Hoeglund <rikard.hoglund@ri.se>, Francesca Palombini
<francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>, Ludwig Seitz
<ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se>




A new version of I-D, draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Marco Tiloca and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile
Revision: 02
Title: Group OSCORE Profile of the Authentication and Authorization for
Constrained Environments Framework
Document date: 2020-03-09
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 53
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profil=
e-02.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profi=
le
Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile=
-02

Abstract:
This document specifies a profile for the Authentication and
Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) framework. The
profile uses Group OSCORE to provide communication security between a
Client and a (set of) Resource Server(s) as members of an OSCORE
Group. The profile securely binds an OAuth 2.0 Access Token with the
public key of the Client associated to the signing private key used
in the OSCORE group. The profile uses Group OSCORE to achieve server
authentication, as well as proof-of-possession for the Client public
key. Also, it provides proof of Client's membership to the correct
OSCORE group, by binding the Access Token to information from the
Group OSCORE Security Context, thus allowing the Resource Server(s)
to verify the Client's membership upon receiving a message protected
with Group OSCORE from the Client.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--------------295EFA91AA1987F0824ECDA9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    Hello ACE,<br>
    <br>
    We have submitted a major updated version of
    draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile<br>
    <br>
    <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02</a><br>
    <br>
    The document describes a profile of ACE where client and server
    communicate with Group OSCORE. This supports fine-grained access
    control in group communication environments, where different group
    members have different access rights to resources of other group
    members.<br>
    <br>
    This update is mostly about:<br>
    <br>
    1) Clarifying pre-conditions and purpose, as requested by Ben at
    IETF 106. That is, nodes are required to have joined the OSCORE
    group first, while this profile is about access control within the
    group, among current group members. Instead, access control for
    joining is covered in a different document and is out of scope for
    this profile.<br>
    <br>
    2) The document body now describing the profile as focused on Group
    OSCORE as only security protocol. Message formats and examples are
    updated accordingly.<br>
    <br>
    3) Defining the document content of -01 as optional "dual mode", in
    Appendix A. This dual mode considers both OSCORE and Group OSCORE as
    security protocol.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Comments are very welcome!<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    /Marco<br>
    <div class=3D"moz-forward-container"><br>
      <br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class=3D"moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing=3D"0"
        cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Sub=
ject:
            </th>
            <td>New Version Notification for
              draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Dat=
e: </th>
            <td>Mon, 09 Mar 2020 12:27:13 -0700</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Fro=
m: </th>
            <td><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:inte=
rnet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">To:=
 </th>
            <td>Rikard Hoeglund <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D=
"mailto:rikard.hoglund@ri.se">&lt;rikard.hoglund@ri.se&gt;</a>, Francesca=

              Palombini <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto=
:francesca.palombini@ericsson.com">&lt;francesca.palombini@ericsson.com&g=
t;</a>, Ludwig
              Seitz <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:lud=
wig.seitz@combitech.se">&lt;ludwig.seitz@combitech.se&gt;</a>, Marco Tilo=
ca
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:marco.til=
oca@ri.se">&lt;marco.tiloca@ri.se&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      A new version of I-D, draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02.txt<=
br>
      has been successfully submitted by Marco Tiloca and posted to the<b=
r>
      IETF repository.<br>
      <br>
      Name: draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile<br>
      Revision: 02<br>
      Title: Group OSCORE Profile of the Authentication and
      Authorization for Constrained Environments Framework<br>
      Document date: 2020-03-09<br>
      Group: Individual Submission<br>
      Pages: 53<br>
      URL:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-=
drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02.txt">https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02.txt</a><br>
      Status:
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf=
=2Eorg/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile/">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile/</a><br>
      Htmlized:
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02</a><br>
      Htmlized:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile">https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile</a><br>
      Diff:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?u=
rl2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02">https://www.ietf.org/rfcd=
iff?url2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-group-oscore-profile-02</a><br>
      <br>
      Abstract:<br>
      This document specifies a profile for the Authentication and<br>
      Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) framework. The<br>=

      profile uses Group OSCORE to provide communication security
      between a<br>
      Client and a (set of) Resource Server(s) as members of an OSCORE<br=
>
      Group. The profile securely binds an OAuth 2.0 Access Token with
      the<br>
      public key of the Client associated to the signing private key
      used<br>
      in the OSCORE group. The profile uses Group OSCORE to achieve
      server<br>
      authentication, as well as proof-of-possession for the Client
      public<br>
      key. Also, it provides proof of Client's membership to the correct<=
br>
      OSCORE group, by binding the Access Token to information from the<b=
r>
      Group OSCORE Security Context, thus allowing the Resource
      Server(s)<br>
      to verify the Client's membership upon receiving a message
      protected<br>
      with Group OSCORE from the Client.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
      submission<br>
      until the htmlized version and diff are available at
      tools.ietf.org.<br>
      <br>
      The IETF Secretariat<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/PTv1sdvJt55zazAlT6XOt8aYyKw>
Subject: [Ace] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01.txt
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Hello ACE,

We have submitted an updated version of draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01

The document describes a RESTful interface on the OSCORE Group Manager
(resource server), intended for an Administrator (client) to create and
delete OSCORE groups, as well as set, retrieve and update their
configuration.

This interface is aligned and consistent with the other RESTful
interface on the Group Manager used in [1] and rather intended for
joining nodes and current group members.

This update is especially about:

1) Addressing the review at [2] from Jim (thanks!)

2) Redesigned and extended interface and resource representation, as a
group-collection of group-configurations.

3) Side effects of group reconfiguration or deletion.

4) Examples both in CBOR and in CoRAL.

Comments are very welcome.

Best,
/Marco

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/DhAI3fdLB_qf3jF_9oQlqVivdyE=
/


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for
draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01.txt
Date: 	Mon, 09 Mar 2020 12:19:25 -0700
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se>, Klaus Hartke
<klaus.hartke@ericsson.com>, Peter van der Stok
<consultancy@vanderstok.org>, Rikard Hoeglund <rikard.hoglund@ri.se>,
Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>




A new version of I-D, draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Marco Tiloca and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin
Revision: 01
Title: Admin Interface for the OSCORE Group Manager
Document date: 2020-03-09
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 27
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01.=
txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin=
/
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01=

Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin
Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admi=
n-01

Abstract:
Group communication for CoAP can be secured using Group Object
Security for Constrained RESTful Environments (Group OSCORE). A
Group Manager is responsible to handle the joining of new group
members, as well as to manage and distribute the group key material.
This document defines a RESTful admin interface at the Group Manager,
that allows an Administrator entity to create and delete OSCORE
groups, as well as to retrieve and update their configuration. The
ACE framework for Authentication and Authorization is used to enforce
authentication and authorization of the Administrator at the Group
Manager. Protocol-specific transport profiles of ACE are used to
achieve communication security, proof-of-possession and server
authentication.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--------------867EB9E4B0CCF73F41B6A8BC
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    Hello ACE,<br>
    <br>
    We have submitted an updated version of
    draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin<br>
    <br>
    <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01</a><br>
    <br>
    The document describes a RESTful interface on the OSCORE Group
    Manager (resource server), intended for an Administrator (client) to
    create and delete OSCORE groups, as well as set, retrieve and update
    their configuration.<br>
    <br>
    This interface is aligned and consistent with the other RESTful
    interface on the Group Manager used in [1] and rather intended for
    joining nodes and current group members.<br>
    <br>
    This update is especially about:<br>
    <br>
    1) Addressing the review at [2] from Jim (thanks!)<br>
    <br>
    2) Redesigned and extended interface and resource representation, as
    a group-collection of group-configurations.<br>
    <br>
    3) Side effects of group reconfiguration or deletion.<br>
    <br>
    4) Examples both in CBOR and in CoRAL.<br>
    <br>
    Comments are very welcome.<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    /Marco<br>
    <br>
    [1] <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore</a><br>
    [2]
    <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.o=
rg/arch/msg/ace/DhAI3fdLB_qf3jF_9oQlqVivdyE/">https://mailarchive.ietf.or=
g/arch/msg/ace/DhAI3fdLB_qf3jF_9oQlqVivdyE/</a><br>
    <div class=3D"moz-forward-container"><br>
      <br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class=3D"moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing=3D"0"
        cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Sub=
ject:
            </th>
            <td>New Version Notification for
              draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Dat=
e: </th>
            <td>Mon, 09 Mar 2020 12:19:25 -0700</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">Fro=
m: </th>
            <td><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:inte=
rnet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign=3D"BASELINE" nowrap=3D"nowrap" align=3D"RIGHT">To:=
 </th>
            <td>Marco Tiloca <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"m=
ailto:marco.tiloca@ri.se">&lt;marco.tiloca@ri.se&gt;</a>, Klaus Hartke
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:klaus.har=
tke@ericsson.com">&lt;klaus.hartke@ericsson.com&gt;</a>, Peter van der St=
ok
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:consultan=
cy@vanderstok.org">&lt;consultancy@vanderstok.org&gt;</a>, Rikard Hoeglun=
d
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:rikard.ho=
glund@ri.se">&lt;rikard.hoglund@ri.se&gt;</a>, Francesca Palombini
              <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:francesca=
=2Epalombini@ericsson.com">&lt;francesca.palombini@ericsson.com&gt;</a></=
td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      A new version of I-D, draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01.txt<br>
      has been successfully submitted by Marco Tiloca and posted to the<b=
r>
      IETF repository.<br>
      <br>
      Name: draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin<br>
      Revision: 01<br>
      Title: Admin Interface for the OSCORE Group Manager<br>
      Document date: 2020-03-09<br>
      Group: Individual Submission<br>
      Pages: 27<br>
      URL:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-=
drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01.txt">https://www.ietf.org/inte=
rnet-drafts/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01.txt</a><br>
      Status:
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf=
=2Eorg/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin/">https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin/</a><br>
      Htmlized:
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01</a><br>
      Htmlized:
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf=
=2Eorg/doc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin</a><br>
      Diff:
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfc=
diff?url2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01">https://www.ietf.org/rfc=
diff?url2=3Ddraft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01</a><br>
      <br>
      Abstract:<br>
      Group communication for CoAP can be secured using Group Object<br>
      Security for Constrained RESTful Environments (Group OSCORE). A<br>=

      Group Manager is responsible to handle the joining of new group<br>=

      members, as well as to manage and distribute the group key
      material.<br>
      This document defines a RESTful admin interface at the Group
      Manager,<br>
      that allows an Administrator entity to create and delete OSCORE<br>=

      groups, as well as to retrieve and update their configuration. The<=
br>
      ACE framework for Authentication and Authorization is used to
      enforce<br>
      authentication and authorization of the Administrator at the Group<=
br>
      Manager. Protocol-specific transport profiles of ACE are used to<br=
>
      achieve communication security, proof-of-possession and server<br>
      authentication.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
      submission<br>
      until the htmlized version and diff are available at
      tools.ietf.org.<br>
      <br>
      The IETF Secretariat<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: ace@ietf.org
References: <01b401d59f2e$ff406560$fdc13020$@augustcellars.com>
From: Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/rZzao-y4oVtINHuuam8EWxWDoWg>
Subject: Re: [Ace] remarks on draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-00
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Hi Jim,

Thanks a lot for this review!

We have taken it into account in the latest submitted -01, together with
the followup discussion on the same thread on the list.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin-01

Please, see some replies inline.

Best,
/Marco

On 2019-11-20 00:13, Jim Schaad wrote:
> This is just going to be a high level review on how things are done rat=
her
> than a detailed review on each line of text.
>
> 1. - Go and read that CoRE Pub-Sub update document - you know the one t=
hat
> Klaus and friends have not managed to get written since the model propo=
sal
> was done way back when.

=3D=3D>MT
The latest version considers an akin interface, along the lines of the
now published draft at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hartke-t2trg-coral-pubsub/
<=3D=3D

>
> 2.  Re-write this to use CoRAL - Yes I know that this makes another
> dependency on getting it published from the CoRE group, but I don't wan=
t to
> do things multiple times.

=3D=3D>MT
We have now also added examples in CoRAL, for all the interactions
between Administrator and Group Manager, now also extended with FETCH
for filtered retrieval.
<=3D=3D

>
> 3.  I think that this document really needs to be able to be used with
> HTTP/JSON as well as CoAP.   If you can get the JSON version of CoRAL f=
rom
> Klaus then this falls out without any work.

=3D=3D>MT
We are now saying that the CoRAL examples are provided in text format,
but they are in CBOR or JSON on the wire.
<=3D=3D

>
> 4.  Are you making it a requirement that the group name be the same as =
the
> group identifier assigned by the "group_name" parameter?  If so then ha=
ving
> some type of title and description would seem to be almost mandatory.

=3D=3D>MT
We have added a new group configuration parameter 'group_title', as a
CBOR text string. This specifies a human-readable descriptive name of
the group, suggesting what it is about.
<=3D=3D

>
> 5.  There needs to be some parameters around pointing to the correct AS=
 and
> so forth.  The management API may reject because it does not trust the =
AS.
> Don't assume that this is a single value for the AS either.

=3D=3D>MT
Now the POST request to /manage specifies also an optional 'as_uri'
parameter, with the link to a suggested AS. The GM may accept the
suggestion or not.

At the moment, only the link is specified. As already mentioned, we can
think more of related sub-items about it to add.
<=3D=3D

>
> 6.  You are missing a lot of management detail on the POST to the group=

> node.  Some of the things that are missing would be:
> a)  Is the group active or inactive

=3D=3D>MT
We have added one more status parameter 'active'.

Based on earlier discussions, an inactive group would mean that: i) no
new members are admitted, thus no new keys to new members are provided;
ii) stop issuing of new keys for current members; iii) current members
are expected to stop communicating (which should rely on informing them)
but are not removed. So the group is temporarily inactive but still exist=
s.
<=3D=3D

> b) How does the server react if you change a the content encryption
> algorithm, is this a simple re-key operation or is it more complicated
> c) How does the server react if you change the signature algorithm?  Th=
is
> would seem to be a much harder thing to do if the group is not empty or=
 not
> active as everybody is going to need to re-join.
> d) Other parameter that are changed may be just as bad as changing the
> signature algorithm - how the re-key is done jumps immediately to mind.=


=3D=3D>MT
These cases are now discussed in Section 2.5.5.2.
<=3D=3D

>
> 7.  Is there currently any way for a KDC to signal to all of the member=
s
> that have joined that the key group no longer exists?  A DELETE would s=
eem
> to indicate the need to be able to do this.

=3D=3D>MT
This is now discussed in Section 2.5.6.1.
<=3D=3D

>
> Jim
>
>
>

--=20
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
Division ICT
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
https://www.ri.se



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From nobody Tue Mar 10 16:10:45 2020
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Hannes Tschofenig' <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
CC: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>, 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Ace] Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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Hannes,

This is going to be a long email and I hope that I do not get too many
things wrong in the process of getting it written up.

So the question that you raised is can the current MQTT profile use the
existing OAuth and ACE-OAuth protocols.  My assertion is that the answer is
yes and I will walk through the two different protocols in order to
demonstrate this.  For simplicilty I am only going to deal with one of the
TLS configurations that the MQTT profile envisions.

For TLS authentication, the server is to be validated by using an X.509
certificate and there is to be a method for the client to be able to
associate the identifier in the certificate with the OAuth token request.
This I assume is a well understood problem in the OAuth WG.  The client is
not authenticated to the server by TLS, this is deferred to MQTT protocol.
When using ACE-OAuth, this is generally going to be tied through the
audience field in some method.

The format of the scope field is defined in the MQTT document and the AS
will need to be able to parse that field and do the proper enforcement.  I
think this different than what a normal OAuth AS does where the scope is a
single value rather than a composite value.

The key which is placed in the token is going to be an asymmetric signing
key.  This is the standard thing for OAuth.  At some point in the future it
might be nice to allow for symmetric keys to be sent out, but for now the
ACE-OAuth is sufficient for dealing with that case.

Using OAuth

The client makes a request to an OAuth authorization server for a token.
The grant_type for the token is going to be "client_credentials", the scope
is a text string defined by the MQTT profile document.  Authorization is
needed for the connection.  My assumption is that this is now normally done
by the use of HTTPS rather than something like basic authentication.

**************************************

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded

grant_type=client_credentials&
scope=publish_topic1/topic2%2Epublish_topic3/+/stats%2Esubscribe_topic3/#

**************************************

The AS response with a standard message

**************************************

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/json;charset=UTF-8

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",
 "token_type":"bearer",
 "expires_in": 3600,
}

**************************************

The client now connects to the MQTT server using TLS, validating the
certificate of the server against it's trust anchors and the "known" name of
the MQTT server.

The client now sends an MQTT CONNECT message to the server passing the JWT
token in as part of the Authentication Data (section 2.2.4 of the MQTT
document).


****************************************************************

Using ACE-OAuth

*******

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
  "scope": "publish_topic1/topic2 publish_topic3/+/stats
subscribe_topic3/#",
  "audience": "mqtts://mqtt.example.com"
}

******

For ACE-OAuth, the default value of grant_type is client_credentials so that
parameter is omitted.


*****

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",
 "expires_in": 3600,
 "ace_profile" : "mqtt_tls"
}



As can be seen, there are only minimal differences between what is sent out
between the Vanilla and the ACE version of OAuth.  In both cases it is
assumed that the client is going to know which asymmetric key is going to be
used.  There are a couple of differences however:

1.  I have used the value of "bearer" for "token_type" in OAuth because that
seemed to me to be the one which mapped to the usage in a better manner.
The OAuth-ACE framework however registers the value of "PoP" and specifies
it as the default value.  It may make more sense to use that value in the
OAuth case as well.

2.  In the ACE-OAuth case, we can return a key to the user and thus be able
to do symmetric keys as well.  If you are already doing TLS and validating
signatures that way I would expect that this is not going to be a common
case.

3.  In the ACE-OAuth case, it is possible to return information about the
TLS key that the server would be using.  This would allow for situations
were the MQTT TLS connection is not doing certificate chain validation, but
instead using information passed in the rs_cnf field to validate either the
public key or the certificate directly.



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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
CC: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>, 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/wumLlKruwAcXxkv2jSG6pY381kk>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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Hi Jim,

I believe you are right that the functionality is supported. In retrospect =
it is good that Ludwig just imported the key transport necessary functional=
ity with draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params-12. Hence, you can do pretty everythin=
g defined in draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution with the ACE-OAuth frame=
work. Only one piece is missing in the IANA consideration section, namely t=
he registration of "pop" in the "OAuth Access Token Types" registry. That n=
eeds to be added. Not a big deal though. I will send text to Ludwig.

I am happy.

Ciao
Hannes

PS: I am not sure whether the authentication mechanisms defined in draft-ie=
tf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile are actually sound. Maybe I should do a formal anal=
ysis.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 12:10 AM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hannes,

This is going to be a long email and I hope that I do not get too many thin=
gs wrong in the process of getting it written up.

So the question that you raised is can the current MQTT profile use the exi=
sting OAuth and ACE-OAuth protocols.  My assertion is that the answer is ye=
s and I will walk through the two different protocols in order to demonstra=
te this.  For simplicilty I am only going to deal with one of the TLS confi=
gurations that the MQTT profile envisions.

For TLS authentication, the server is to be validated by using an X.509 cer=
tificate and there is to be a method for the client to be able to associate=
 the identifier in the certificate with the OAuth token request.
This I assume is a well understood problem in the OAuth WG.  The client is =
not authenticated to the server by TLS, this is deferred to MQTT protocol.
When using ACE-OAuth, this is generally going to be tied through the audien=
ce field in some method.

The format of the scope field is defined in the MQTT document and the AS wi=
ll need to be able to parse that field and do the proper enforcement.  I th=
ink this different than what a normal OAuth AS does where the scope is a si=
ngle value rather than a composite value.

The key which is placed in the token is going to be an asymmetric signing k=
ey.  This is the standard thing for OAuth.  At some point in the future it =
might be nice to allow for symmetric keys to be sent out, but for now the A=
CE-OAuth is sufficient for dealing with that case.

Using OAuth

The client makes a request to an OAuth authorization server for a token.
The grant_type for the token is going to be "client_credentials", the scope=
 is a text string defined by the MQTT profile document.  Authorization is n=
eeded for the connection.  My assumption is that this is now normally done =
by the use of HTTPS rather than something like basic authentication.

**************************************

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded

grant_type=3Dclient_credentials&
scope=3Dpublish_topic1/topic2%2Epublish_topic3/+/stats%2Esubscribe_topic3/#

**************************************

The AS response with a standard message

**************************************

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/json;charset=3DUTF-8

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",  "token_type":"bearer",
 "expires_in": 3600,
}

**************************************

The client now connects to the MQTT server using TLS, validating the certif=
icate of the server against it's trust anchors and the "known" name of the =
MQTT server.

The client now sends an MQTT CONNECT message to the server passing the JWT =
token in as part of the Authentication Data (section 2.2.4 of the MQTT docu=
ment).


****************************************************************

Using ACE-OAuth

*******

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
  "scope": "publish_topic1/topic2 publish_topic3/+/stats subscribe_topic3/#=
",
  "audience": "mqtts://mqtt.example.com"
}

******

For ACE-OAuth, the default value of grant_type is client_credentials so tha=
t parameter is omitted.


*****

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",
 "expires_in": 3600,
 "ace_profile" : "mqtt_tls"
}



As can be seen, there are only minimal differences between what is sent out=
 between the Vanilla and the ACE version of OAuth.  In both cases it is ass=
umed that the client is going to know which asymmetric key is going to be u=
sed.  There are a couple of differences however:

1.  I have used the value of "bearer" for "token_type" in OAuth because tha=
t seemed to me to be the one which mapped to the usage in a better manner.
The OAuth-ACE framework however registers the value of "PoP" and specifies =
it as the default value.  It may make more sense to use that value in the O=
Auth case as well.

2.  In the ACE-OAuth case, we can return a key to the user and thus be able=
 to do symmetric keys as well.  If you are already doing TLS and validating=
 signatures that way I would expect that this is not going to be a common c=
ase.

3.  In the ACE-OAuth case, it is possible to return information about the T=
LS key that the server would be using.  This would allow for situations wer=
e the MQTT TLS connection is not doing certificate chain validation, but in=
stead using information passed in the rs_cnf field to validate either the p=
ublic key or the certificate directly.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.


From nobody Wed Mar 11 16:39:06 2020
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de>, "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, "charliemortimore@gmail.com" <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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References: <RT-Ticket-1158953@icann.org> <03f0f73f-4c82-9089-0a81-471a5fb54ba8@gmx.de> <d23d83eb-44ef-bece-cfcc-61ee5d951cd8@gmx.de> <rt-4.4.3-14831-1579299068-1542.1158953-37-0@icann.org> <rt-4.4.3-21646-1582059958-678.1158953-37-0@icann.org> <BY5PR00MB06762A9651316668A1290016F5110@BY5PR00MB0676.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <rt-4.4.3-21645-1582065742-299.1158953-37-0@icann.org> <rt-4.4.3-11175-1582675119-1846.1158953-37-0@icann.org> <4788cad0-d1dc-2947-9e17-cad4f2147a7b@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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[Adding correct e-mail addresses for Chuck, who recently joined Visa]



There are two reasons that I believe not using up one of the scarce one-byt=
e claim identifiers for "scope" is appropriate:

  1.  The claim values for scopes are not short themselves.  They are sets =
of ASCII strings separated by spaces. So the percentage difference in the t=
otal claim representation from adding a single byte will typically be small=
.
  2.  The single-byte claim identifiers already registered at https://www.i=
ana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml are claims that are likely to be useful t=
o diverse sets of applications, and therefore merit the short identifiers; =
whereas, the scope claim is specific to the ACE OAuth protocol and not appl=
icable to diverse sets of applications.  It's reasonable to give protocol-s=
pecific claim identifiers 2-byte representations.



I'd be interested to hear from the two other designated experts on my asses=
sment of the situation: Hannes and Chuck.



                                                       -- Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: Cwt-reg-review <cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ludwig =
Seitz
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM
To: drafts-expert-review@iana.org; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review f=
or IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Cl=
aims)



On 2020-02-26 00:58, Amanda Baber via RT wrote:

> Ludwig, Hannes,

>

> Can you confirm that you can make the CBOR Web Token Claim change

> requested below?

>

> We also have Chuck Mortimore listed as an expert for this registry,

> but our message to his Salesforce address bounced.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist

>



I strongly disagree with the assessment that the scope claim should be push=
ed into the two-byte range.



The reason we introduced the scope claim is that an ACE RS typically does n=
ot have a direct connection to the AS, and is therefore unable to retrieve =
the scope of an access token from other sources than the access token itsel=
f.  I therefore assert that ACE access tokens would often need to contain t=
his claim in order to inform the RS.

Since one of the major drivers of the ACE work has been to reduce the autho=
rization overhead (otherwise we could just have used vanilla OAuth 2.0), I =
find it strange to needlessly add to the overhead by making the encoding of=
 a frequently used claim longer than necessary.



I am willing to listen to the arguments that have lead the expert reviewer =
to denying a value in the one-byte range, and discuss the reasoning further=
 on list.



Regards,



Ludwig





> On Tue Feb 18 22:42:22 2020, Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<mailto:Michael.J=
ones@microsoft.com> wrote:

>> I'm mostly OK with these registrations, however, DO NOT assign the

>> value 9 to "scope".   Rather, please put it in the two-byte range

>> - for instance, with the value 41.

>>

>> -- Mike

>>

>> -----Original Message----- From: Cwt-reg-review

>> <cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org>=
> On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via RT

>> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 1:06 PM Cc:

>> cwt-reg-review@ietf.org<mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> Subject: [EXTERN=
AL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA

>> #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in

>> draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

>>

>> Hi all,

>>

>> Resending this request for draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz.

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> Sabrina Tanamal Senior IANA Services Specialist

>>

>>> On Sat Dec 21 11:37:11 2019, ludwig_seitz@gmx.de<mailto:ludwig_seitz@gm=
x.de> wrote:

>>>> Hello CWT registry reviewers,

>>>>

>>>> the IESG-designated experts for the CWT claims registry have asked

>>>> me to send a review request to you about the claims registered

>>>> here:

>>>>

>>>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft

>>>> o

>>>>

>>>>

ols.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-29%23section-

>>>> 8.13&a

>>>> mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7Ce23f64ac1ad74269c

>>>> 3

>>>>

>>>>

c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63717656

>>>> 7656665548&amp;sdata=3Dr01W5Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk%

>>>> 3

>>>>

>>>>

D&amp;reserved=3D0

>>>>

>>>> Thank you in advance for you review comments.

>>>>

>>>> Regards,

>>>>

>>>> Ludwig

>>>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________ Cwt-reg-review

>> mailing list Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org<mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>

>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww

>> .ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-

>>

>>

reg-

>> review&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7Ce23f64ac1ad

>> 74269c3c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63

>> 7176567656675543&amp;sdata=3DXxBhQmqxGkCRiBxh0PdhX2IJD8TnbwWl%2Feo8VUsH

>> Osg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

>



_______________________________________________

Cwt-reg-review mailing list

Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org<mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review

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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">[Adding correct e-mail addresses for Chuck, who r=
ecently joined Visa]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">There are two reasons that I believe not using up=
 one of the scarce one-byte claim identifiers for &quot;scope&quot; is appr=
opriate:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">The claim valu=
es for scopes are not short themselves.&nbsp; They are sets of ASCII string=
s separated by spaces. So the percentage difference in the total claim repr=
esentation from adding a single byte will
 typically be small.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso=
-list:l0 level1 lfo1">The single-byte claim identifiers already registered =
at
<a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml">https://www.iana=
.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml</a> are claims that are likely to be useful =
to diverse sets of applications, and therefore merit the short identifiers;=
 whereas, the scope claim is specific
 to the ACE OAuth protocol and not applicable to diverse sets of applicatio=
ns.&nbsp; It&#8217;s reasonable to give protocol-specific claim identifiers=
 2-byte representations.<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I&#8217;d be interested to hear from the two othe=
r designated experts on my assessment of the situation: Hannes and Chuck.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Cwt-reg-review &lt;cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org&gt; On Behalf Of L=
udwig Seitz<br>
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM<br>
To: drafts-expert-review@iana.org; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org<br>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org<br>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review f=
or IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Cl=
aims)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">On 2020-02-26 00:58, Amanda Baber via RT wrote:<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Ludwig, Hannes,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Can you confirm that you can make the CBOR W=
eb Token Claim change
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; requested below?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; We also have Chuck Mortimore listed as an ex=
pert for this registry,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; but our message to his Salesforce address bo=
unced.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I strongly disagree with the assessment that the =
scope claim should be pushed into the two-byte range.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The reason we introduced the scope claim is that =
an ACE RS typically does not have a direct connection to the AS, and is the=
refore unable to retrieve the scope of an access token from other sources t=
han the access token itself.&nbsp; I therefore
 assert that ACE access tokens would often need to contain this claim in or=
der to inform the RS.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Since one of the major drivers of the ACE work ha=
s been to reduce the authorization overhead (otherwise we could just have u=
sed vanilla OAuth 2.0), I find it strange to needlessly add to the overhead=
 by making the encoding of a frequently
 used claim longer than necessary.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I am willing to listen to the arguments that have=
 lead the expert reviewer to denying a value in the one-byte range, and dis=
cuss the reasoning further on list.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Ludwig<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; On Tue Feb 18 22:42:22 2020, <a href=3D"mail=
to:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</span></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; I'm mostly OK with these registrations, =
however, DO NOT assign the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; value 9 to &quot;scope&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Rather, please put it in the two-byte range<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; - for instance, with the value 41.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; -----Original Message----- From: Cwt-reg=
-review <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review-bou=
nces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">cwt-re=
g-review-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via R=
T
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 1:06 PM=
 Cc:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.or=
g"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">cwt-reg-review@iet=
f.org</span></a> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; #1158953] Requested review for IANA regi=
stration in <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR W=
eb Token Claims)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Resending this request for draft-ietf-ac=
e-oauth-authz.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Sabrina Tanamal Senior IANA Services Spe=
cialist<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat Dec 21 11:37:11 2019, <a href=
=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</=
span></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello CWT registry reviewers,<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the IESG-designated experts for =
the CWT claims registry have asked
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; me to send a review request to y=
ou about the claims registered
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://nam06.safelin=
ks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://nam06.safelin=
ks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; o<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">ols.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-=
29%23section-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 8.13&amp;a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jone=
s%40microsoft.com%7Ce23f64ac1ad74269c<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47=
%7C1%7C0%7C63717656<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 7656665548&amp;amp;sdata=3Dr01W5=
Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk%<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">D&amp;amp;reserved=3D0<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you in advance for you rev=
iew comments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ludwig<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; ________________________________________=
_______ Cwt-reg-review
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:Cwt-reg-r=
eview@ietf.org">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Cwt-reg-review@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.prote=
ction.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://nam06.safelin=
ks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww</span></a><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; .ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">reg-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; review&amp;amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.=
Jones%40microsoft.com%7Ce23f64ac1ad<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; 74269c3c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af=
91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; 7176567656675543&amp;amp;sdata=3DXxBhQmq=
xGkCRiBxh0PdhX2IJD8TnbwWl%2Feo8VUsH<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Osg%3D&amp;amp;reserved=3D0<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Cwt-reg-review mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</sp=
an></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
cwt-reg-review"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:49:44 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de>, "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, "charliemortimore@gmail.com" <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 11:39:00PM +0000, Mike Jones wrote:
> [Adding correct e-mail addresses for Chuck, who recently joined Visa]
> 
> 
> 
> There are two reasons that I believe not using up one of the scarce one-byte claim identifiers for "scope" is appropriate:
> 
>   1.  The claim values for scopes are not short themselves.  They are sets of ASCII strings separated by spaces. So the percentage difference in the total claim representation from adding a single byte will typically be small..

ACE allows the scope to be a binary value and to use a different convention
than space-separated for multi-value scopes.

>   2.  The single-byte claim identifiers already registered at https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml are claims that are likely to be useful to diverse sets of applications, and therefore merit the short identifiers; whereas, the scope claim is specific to the ACE OAuth protocol and not applicable to diverse sets of applications.  It's reasonable to give protocol-specific claim identifiers 2-byte representations.

(This point I don't have a good response for.)

-Ben

> 
> 
> I'd be interested to hear from the two other designated experts on my assessment of the situation: Hannes and Chuck.
> 
> 
> 
>                                                        -- Mike
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cwt-reg-review <cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ludwig Seitz
> Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM
> To: drafts-expert-review@iana.org; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
> 
> 
> 
> On 2020-02-26 00:58, Amanda Baber via RT wrote:
> 
> > Ludwig, Hannes,
> 
> >
> 
> > Can you confirm that you can make the CBOR Web Token Claim change
> 
> > requested below?
> 
> >
> 
> > We also have Chuck Mortimore listed as an expert for this registry,
> 
> > but our message to his Salesforce address bounced.
> 
> >
> 
> > Best regards,
> 
> >
> 
> > Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree with the assessment that the scope claim should be pushed into the two-byte range.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason we introduced the scope claim is that an ACE RS typically does not have a direct connection to the AS, and is therefore unable to retrieve the scope of an access token from other sources than the access token itself.  I therefore assert that ACE access tokens would often need to contain this claim in order to inform the RS.
> 
> Since one of the major drivers of the ACE work has been to reduce the authorization overhead (otherwise we could just have used vanilla OAuth 2.0), I find it strange to needlessly add to the overhead by making the encoding of a frequently used claim longer than necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> I am willing to listen to the arguments that have lead the expert reviewer to denying a value in the one-byte range, and discuss the reasoning further on list.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Ludwig
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Tue Feb 18 22:42:22 2020, Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
> 
> >> I'm mostly OK with these registrations, however, DO NOT assign the
> 
> >> value 9 to "scope".   Rather, please put it in the two-byte range
> 
> >> - for instance, with the value 41.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> -- Mike
> 
> >>
> 
> >> -----Original Message----- From: Cwt-reg-review
> 
> >> <cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via RT
> 
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 1:06 PM Cc:
> 
> >> cwt-reg-review@ietf.org<mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA
> 
> >> #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in
> 
> >> draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Hi all,
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Resending this request for draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Thanks,
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Sabrina Tanamal Senior IANA Services Specialist
> 
> >>
> 
> >>> On Sat Dec 21 11:37:11 2019, ludwig_seitz@gmx.de<mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> >>>> Hello CWT registry reviewers,
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>> the IESG-designated experts for the CWT claims registry have asked
> 
> >>>> me to send a review request to you about the claims registered
> 
> >>>> here:
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ft
> 
> >>>> o
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>>
> 
> ols.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-29%23section-
> 
> >>>> 8.13&a
> 
> >>>> mp;data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7Ce23f64ac1ad74269c
> 
> >>>> 3
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>>
> 
> c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63717656
> 
> >>>> 7656665548&amp;sdata=r01W5Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk%
> 
> >>>> 3
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>>
> 
> D&amp;reserved=0
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>> Thank you in advance for you review comments.
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>> Regards,
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>> Ludwig
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> _______________________________________________ Cwt-reg-review
> 
> >> mailing list Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org<mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>
> 
> >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
> 
> >> .ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> reg-
> 
> >> review&amp;data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7Ce23f64ac1ad
> 
> >> 74269c3c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63
> 
> >> 7176567656675543&amp;sdata=XxBhQmqxGkCRiBxh0PdhX2IJD8TnbwWl%2Feo8VUsH
> 
> >> Osg%3D&amp;reserved=0
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Cwt-reg-review mailing list
> 
> Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org<mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>
> 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review

> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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From: Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:12:27 -0700
Message-ID: <CAKzGp_6xk6nXU3q9qU0Pj+fMu8EqQ8FA7y7vCOajKEuicQc98Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de>,  "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>,  "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>,  "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>,  "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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--000000000000f3f30105a09d35ca
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Agree with Mike's assessment.   (One caveat to that is that I'm not close
enough to CWT to understand how scare the single byte identifiers actually
are.)

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:39 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> [Adding correct e-mail addresses for Chuck, who recently joined Visa]
>
>
>
> There are two reasons that I believe not using up one of the scarce
> one-byte claim identifiers for "scope" is appropriate:
>
>    1. The claim values for scopes are not short themselves.  They are
>    sets of ASCII strings separated by spaces. So the percentage differenc=
e in
>    the total claim representation from adding a single byte will typicall=
y be
>    small.
>    2. The single-byte claim identifiers already registered at
>    https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml are claims that are
>    likely to be useful to diverse sets of applications, and therefore mer=
it
>    the short identifiers; whereas, the scope claim is specific to the ACE
>    OAuth protocol and not applicable to diverse sets of applications.  It=
=E2=80=99s
>    reasonable to give protocol-specific claim identifiers 2-byte
>    representations.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99d be interested to hear from the two other designated experts o=
n my
> assessment of the situation: Hannes and Chuck.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cwt-reg-review <cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> Ludwig Seitz
> Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM
> To: drafts-expert-review@iana.org; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review
> for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token
> Claims)
>
>
>
> On 2020-02-26 00:58, Amanda Baber via RT wrote:
>
> > Ludwig, Hannes,
>
> >
>
> > Can you confirm that you can make the CBOR Web Token Claim change
>
> > requested below?
>
> >
>
> > We also have Chuck Mortimore listed as an expert for this registry,
>
> > but our message to his Salesforce address bounced.
>
> >
>
> > Best regards,
>
> >
>
> > Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist
>
> >
>
>
>
> I strongly disagree with the assessment that the scope claim should be
> pushed into the two-byte range.
>
>
>
> The reason we introduced the scope claim is that an ACE RS typically does
> not have a direct connection to the AS, and is therefore unable to retrie=
ve
> the scope of an access token from other sources than the access token
> itself.  I therefore assert that ACE access tokens would often need to
> contain this claim in order to inform the RS.
>
> Since one of the major drivers of the ACE work has been to reduce the
> authorization overhead (otherwise we could just have used vanilla OAuth
> 2.0), I find it strange to needlessly add to the overhead by making the
> encoding of a frequently used claim longer than necessary.
>
>
>
> I am willing to listen to the arguments that have lead the expert reviewe=
r
> to denying a value in the one-byte range, and discuss the reasoning furth=
er
> on list.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Ludwig
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue Feb 18 22:42:22 2020, Michael.Jones@microsoft.com wrote:
>
> >> I'm mostly OK with these registrations, however, DO NOT assign the
>
> >> value 9 to "scope".   Rather, please put it in the two-byte range
>
> >> - for instance, with the value 41.
>
> >>
>
> >> -- Mike
>
> >>
>
> >> -----Original Message----- From: Cwt-reg-review
>
> >> <cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via RT
>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 1:06 PM Cc:
>
> >> cwt-reg-review@ietf.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA
>
> >> #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in
>
> >> draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
>
> >>
>
> >> Hi all,
>
> >>
>
> >> Resending this request for draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz.
>
> >>
>
> >> Thanks,
>
> >>
>
> >> Sabrina Tanamal Senior IANA Services Specialist
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Sat Dec 21 11:37:11 2019, ludwig_seitz@gmx.de wrote:
>
> >>>> Hello CWT registry reviewers,
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> the IESG-designated experts for the CWT claims registry have asked
>
> >>>> me to send a review request to you about the claims registered
>
> >>>> here:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2F=
t
>
> >>>> o
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> ols.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-29%23section-
>
> >>>> 8.13&a
>
> >>>> mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7Ce23f64ac1ad74269=
c
>
> >>>> 3
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63717656
>
> >>>> 7656665548&amp;sdata=3Dr01W5Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk=
%
>
> >>>> 3
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> D&amp;reserved=3D0
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Thank you in advance for you review comments.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Regards,
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Ludwig
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >> _______________________________________________ Cwt-reg-review
>
> >> mailing list Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org
>
> >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww=
w
>
> >> .ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> reg-
>
> >> review&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com%7Ce23f64ac1a=
d
>
> >> 74269c3c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63
>
> >> 7176567656675543&amp;sdata=3DXxBhQmqxGkCRiBxh0PdhX2IJD8TnbwWl%2Feo8VUs=
H
>
> >> Osg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Cwt-reg-review mailing list
>
> Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org
>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review
>

--000000000000f3f30105a09d35ca
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Agree with Mike&#39;s assessment. =C2=A0 (One caveat to th=
at is that I&#39;m not close enough to CWT to understand how scare the sing=
le byte identifiers actually are.)</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:39 PM Mike Jone=
s &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border=
-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656WordSection1">
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">[Adding correct e-mail=
 addresses for Chuck, who recently joined Visa]<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">There are two reasons =
that I believe not using up one of the scarce one-byte claim identifiers fo=
r &quot;scope&quot; is appropriate:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">The claim values for =
scopes are not short themselves.=C2=A0 They are sets of ASCII strings separ=
ated by spaces. So the percentage difference in the total claim representat=
ion from adding a single byte will
 typically be small.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_748558828685575=
1656MsoPlainText">The single-byte claim identifiers already registered at
<a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml</a> are claims that are li=
kely to be useful to diverse sets of applications, and therefore merit the =
short identifiers; whereas, the scope claim is specific
 to the ACE OAuth protocol and not applicable to diverse sets of applicatio=
ns.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s reasonable to give protocol-specific claim identifie=
rs 2-byte representations.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">I=E2=80=99d be interes=
ted to hear from the two other designated experts on my assessment of the s=
ituation: Hannes and Chuck.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-=
----<br>
From: Cwt-reg-review &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Lud=
wig Seitz<br>
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org" target=3D"_blank">draf=
ts-expert-review@iana.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">ace@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review f=
or IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Cl=
aims)</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">On 2020-02-26 00:58, A=
manda Baber via RT wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt; Ludwig, Hannes,<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt; Can you confirm t=
hat you can make the CBOR Web Token Claim change
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt; requested below?<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt; We also have Chuc=
k Mortimore listed as an expert for this registry,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt; but our message t=
o his Salesforce address bounced.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt; Best regards,<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt; Amanda Baber Lead=
 IANA Services Specialist<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">I strongly disagree wi=
th the assessment that the scope claim should be pushed into the two-byte r=
ange.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">The reason we introduc=
ed the scope claim is that an ACE RS typically does not have a direct conne=
ction to the AS, and is therefore unable to retrieve the scope of an access=
 token from other sources than the access token itself.=C2=A0 I therefore
 assert that ACE access tokens would often need to contain this claim in or=
der to inform the RS.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">Since one of the major=
 drivers of the ACE work has been to reduce the authorization overhead (oth=
erwise we could just have used vanilla OAuth 2.0), I find it strange to nee=
dlessly add to the overhead by making the encoding of a frequently
 used claim longer than necessary.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">I am willing to listen=
 to the arguments that have lead the expert reviewer to denying a value in =
the one-byte range, and discuss the reasoning further on list.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">Regards,<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">Ludwig<u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt; On Tue Feb 18 22:=
42:22 2020, <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank=
">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</span></a> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; I&#39;m mostl=
y OK with these registrations, however, DO NOT assign the<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; value 9 to &q=
uot;scope&quot;.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Rather, please put it in the two-byte range<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; - for instanc=
e, with the value 41.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; -- Mike<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; -----Original=
 Message----- From: Cwt-reg-review <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org<=
/span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via RT
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday=
, February 18, 2020 1:06 PM Cc:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:window=
text;text-decoration:none">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</span></a> Subject: [EXT=
ERNAL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; #1158953] Req=
uested review for IANA registration in <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-ac=
e-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Hi all,<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Resending thi=
s request for draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Thanks,<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Sabrina Tanam=
al Senior IANA Services Specialist<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat De=
c 21 11:37:11 2019, <a href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank=
">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</=
span></a> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello=
 CWT registry reviewers,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the I=
ESG-designated experts for the CWT claims registry have asked
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; me to=
 send a review request to you about the claims registered
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; here:=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a hr=
ef=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft=
" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://nam06.safelin=
ks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft</span></a><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; o<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"http://ols.=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ols.ietf.org</a>%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz-29%23section-<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 8.13&=
amp;a<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mp;da=
ta=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%<a href=3D"http://40microsoft.com" target=3D"_=
blank">40microsoft.com</a>%7Ce23f64ac1ad74269c<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f98=
8bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63717656<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 76566=
65548&amp;amp;sdata=3Dr01W5Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk%<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">D&amp;amp;reserved=3D0=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank=
 you in advance for you review comments.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ludwi=
g<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; _____________=
__________________________________ Cwt-reg-review
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; mailing list =
<a href=3D"mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Cwt-reg-review@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"ht=
tps://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://nam06.safelin=
ks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww</span></a><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; .<a href=3D"h=
ttp://ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf.org</a>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">reg-<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; review&amp;am=
p;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%<a href=3D"http://40microsoft.com" target=
=3D"_blank">40microsoft.com</a>%7Ce23f64ac1ad<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; 74269c3c408d7=
b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; 7176567656675=
543&amp;amp;sdata=3DXxBhQmqxGkCRiBxh0PdhX2IJD8TnbwWl%2Feo8VUsH<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Osg%3D&amp;am=
p;reserved=3D0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">&gt;<u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">______________________=
_________________________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText">Cwt-reg-review mailing=
 list<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"mailto:Cwt-=
reg-review@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text=
-decoration:none">Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7485588286855751656MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/cwt-reg-review</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000f3f30105a09d35ca--


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From: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>
To: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
CC: "lwip@ietf.org" <lwip@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-raza-ace-cbor-certificates-04.txt
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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
CC: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de>, "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
Thread-Index: AQHV9/5TBAEZsCgi4k++oGgwGUuBE6hEBROAgACN7KA=
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 08:05:27 +0000
Message-ID: <51f4eaa508c74bd6afc067bdcd7bcb94@combitech.se>
References: <RT-Ticket-1158953@icann.org> <03f0f73f-4c82-9089-0a81-471a5fb54ba8@gmx.de> <d23d83eb-44ef-bece-cfcc-61ee5d951cd8@gmx.de> <rt-4.4.3-14831-1579299068-1542.1158953-37-0@icann.org> <rt-4.4.3-21646-1582059958-678.1158953-37-0@icann.org> <BY5PR00MB06762A9651316668A1290016F5110@BY5PR00MB0676.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <rt-4.4.3-21645-1582065742-299.1158953-37-0@icann.org> <rt-4.4.3-11175-1582675119-1846.1158953-37-0@icann.org> <4788cad0-d1dc-2947-9e17-cad4f2147a7b@gmx.de> <DM6PR00MB0684B6E29343D9A1D2CAC62CF5FC0@DM6PR00MB0684.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <CAKzGp_6xk6nXU3q9qU0Pj+fMu8EqQ8FA7y7vCOajKEuicQc98Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com>
CC: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de>, "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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Here is a new review - the sooner you ask about anything that is unclear the
more likely I will remember what I was referring to.

Jim



*  In figure 4:  The CDDL is not correct.  "2*role" should be "2*role:tstr"
or role should be defined as a separate item

* Section 3.2 - The third to last paragraph is incorrect, the token should
have the expires AT not the expires IN parameter.  There is a solid
assumption that in this case there is a common idea of a wall clock between
all of the servers and there for stating a hard expiration time is more
appropriate than an expires in moment.  Additionally, tokens will generally
not include the rs_cnf even if it is in the response message and will
include a cnf for an asymmetric key.  In short, this paragraph is just plain
wrong.

* In section 3.2 - Why is the AS not allowed to return the same
authorization token to the same request assuming that things such as the
amount of time left before it expires would seem reasonable.  I am not sure
why this is a requirement let along one in this draft.   Additionally, it
says nothing about re-use of the same secret for a symmetric algorithm which
also might be something that needs to be said.

* In Section 3.3 - As an input to your "make it an array" decisions,
remember that the order of scope elements that the client gave to the AS are
not necessarily the same order as are in the token.  I think you might just
need to collapse all three arrays into a single value in the map.

* In section 3.3 - Move the data structure of sign_info to section 3.3.1

* In section 3.3 - Move the data structure description of pub_key_enc to
section 3.3.2

* In section 3.3.3 - I think you might want to rename the 'rsnonce' to be
something that is KDC specific.

* In section 4.1 - I am not sure that I like the idea of reserving
/ace-group against all comers, esp. as this is not the resource name that is
being used by the OSCORE version of the document.  You can talk to the core
people, but a better way of saying that this is a specific interface is to
defined that as a property ("if=....") and register that interface name.  If
you really do mean to reserve this name against all comers then you need to
make a registration in the well-known registry as part of the IANA sections.
The last paragraph may or may not reverse the section on /ace-group.

* In section 4.1.2.1 - You cannot really reference cnonce to the framework
document as you are going to be using a different content-format and
therefore a new identifier is needed.

* In section 4.1.2.1 - See issue #60 on github about when credential
verification is needed.

* In section 4.1.2.1 - Please insert a forward pointer on 'control_path' to
a section which describes exactly what this is supposed to be doing because
it is not clear from this text.  I think it will need more than a single
paragraph to do so. 

* In section 4.1.2.1 - What happens if a 'control_path' is provided but not
supported - does that mean a bad request?

* In section 4.1.2.1 - /assigns a name NAME to the node/   is this assigning
a name to the node or to the join result?  I don't know what the node would
be but I may have missed a definition.

* In section 4.1.2.1 - Unless you have a reason for allowing floating point
for 'exp', make it integer only.  

* In section 4.1.2.1 - For control_path,  I assume that fragment is not
supported - are paramenters?  The problem is that you say "URI path" which
has a meaning.

* In section 4.1.2.1 - Mismatch between NAME and NODENAME in the text - need
to harmonize

* In Section 4.1.2.1 - I believe that the minimal content for a join request
is an empty map.  I believe that the minimal content for a join response is
an empty map.  The first makes sense as authorization comes from else where
and so can the public key if it is needed.  I am not so sure that an empty
response makes a great deal of sense for a response but it may be what you
intended.

* In Section 4.1.2.2 - I am not sure that it makes sense to return key
material to a client for which the scope permits it to join, but which has
not actually done the join process.   

* In section 4.1.3.1 - I would like to have the ability to do a fetch based
on the roles of the client associated with the public key.  That is I would
like to retrieve only those public keys associated with a requestor.

* In section 4.1.4.1 - Is there any information in the policies which is
sensitive?   Is there a reason not to return this info to everybody?

* In section 4.1.5.1 - Should this be restricted to group members?

* In section 4.1.6.1 - This is be restricted to just the correct client -
That is subscriber #2 should not be able to access subscriber #1's resource
here.

* In section 4.1.6.3 - The third paragraph is redundant as this is already
covered by the first paragraph

* In section 4.1.6.3 - The second and fourth paragraph are not making any
sense.  There is no body for a DELETE handler.

* In section 4.1.7.1 - If a public key is replaced, does this constitute a
reason that a key roll over is going to be required?  Is this something that
needs to be distributed proactively if it is allowed by the server since
otherwise things may be really messed up?

* In section 4.3 - I don't know if this is worth while thinking about or
not.  There may want to be two different expiration values that are defined
in the system.  When you stop sending using the key material and when you
stop receiving using the keying material.  These values would need to be
contingent on a "key revocation" event as well.  The delta could be setup as
a new group parameter with a default value set by the document.

* In section 4.5 - Fetch should return 2.05 (content) not 2.01 (Created).
Nothing was modified on the server.

* In Section 5 - For bullet 1 of bullet 3 - I think that the reasoning
behind not authorized needs to be expanded.  For example it might say, the
node is no longer authorized for that group. 

* In section 5 - For bullet 2 of bullet 3 - This sentence seems to be an
oxymoron - how can it still be valid and expired at the same time?   Note -
I am not sure that introspection actually separates these two different
cases, but I have not gone back to read the framework document on that
point.

* In section 7 - para #1 - This need to be explained a bit more.  I know
what this is talking about but my first thought was how can it be a replay
if this is the first time I have seen it?   This should probably also note
the possible mitigation that it is limited by the time since the last time
the key was rolled over.

* Section 7.1 - In the third paragraph, there is a discussion of CoAP
retransmissions, this is causing a bit of a frisson in my mind as, at least
for multicast, this would not be something that happens.  The retransmission
would need to occur at the application level instead.

* Section 8. - In term of the name, what about doing the encoding in JSON?

s/minum/minimum/







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--00000000000032b7ce05a0dacafe
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Hi,



The IESG has decided on a schedule for when WGs should be holding an
interim meeting based on the timeslot where it was scheduled to meet during
the F2F meeting.  If ACE is going to hold a meeting it is supposed to be on
April 15th.  We have put up a doodle poll for a time slot at


https://doodle.com/poll/r3zcz4syuuwdbqsu


and are currently planning to schedule a two hour time slot for that
meeting.  Please fill in the poll including let us know if none of the
slots presented are going to be workable by March 20.



The chairs plan to schedule two more interim meetings one in May and one in
June to try and get some of the F2F time that we did not get because of the
canceled meeting.  We will be looking at how to schedule those meetings
between now and the 15th.



Yours,



Jim and Daniel





-- 
Daniel Migault
Ericsson

--00000000000032b7ce05a0dacafe
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi, </p>

<p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The IESG has decided on a schedule for=
 when WGs should be
holding an interim meeting based on the timeslot where it was scheduled to =
meet
during the F2F meeting.=C2=A0 If ACE is going
to hold a meeting it is supposed to be on April 15th.=C2=A0 We have put up =
a doodle poll for a time slot
at=C2=A0</p><p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></p><div></div><p></p><div=
><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://doodle.com/poll/r3zcz4syuuwdbqsu">https:=
//doodle.com/poll/r3zcz4syuuwdbqsu</a><br></div><p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainT=
ext" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><br></p><p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">and are currently pl=
anning to schedule a two hour time slot for
that meeting.=C2=A0 Please fill in the poll
including let us know if none of the slots presented are going to be workab=
le by March 20.</p>

<p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The chairs plan to schedule two more i=
nterim meetings one
in May and one in June to try and get some of the F2F time that we did not =
get
because of the canceled meeting.=C2=A0 We will
be looking at how to schedule those meetings between now and the 15th.</p>

<p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Yours, </p>

<p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Jim and Daniel</p></div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Daniel Migault<br></div><div>Ericsson</div></div></div=
></div>

--00000000000032b7ce05a0dacafe--


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Forgot to cc the group

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> 
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 1:48 PM
To: 'draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore@ietf.org'
<draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore@ietf.org>
Subject: Review of draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore-05

* Introduction:  In para 2, the second sentence needs to be re-written.  If
you remove the subclause, then you get "This relies on a Group Manager where
members exchange   CoAP messages secured with Group OSCORE." Which is wrong.

* Section 2 -  The following is a problematic statement " All communications
between the involved entities rely on the CoAP protocol and MUST be
secured."  For something like MQTT you want to be able to do it in JSON/HTTP

* Section 2.2 - I think it might be worthwhile in para 3 to give the reason
for needing a new group identifier - This is because of the conflict in name
between group identifier of OSCORE and group identifier of
ace-key-groupcomm.  You have not yet stated that they are different things.

* Section 3.1 - I think I said this before but ["requester", "monitor"]
seems to be a bit of an oxymoron.  Anybody who is either a requester or a
responder can be a monitor without advertising the fact.

* Section 3.1 -  The table in figure 1 is currently not usable due to the
definition of scope in ace-key-groupcomm.

* Section 3.1 - The framework allows for the scope and the audience to be
implicit for an endpoint that is only doing one thing.  Are you sure you
want to eliminate that option?

* Section  4 - I think you probably want to justify the reason for changing
the base name of the resource.  Also the same comments that I made in
ace-key-groupcomm about registering as a well-known are going to exist if
you really want it to be fixed.

* Section 5.2 - scope should not be a mandatory element in the request - it
is implicit in the path name and the scope in the token.

* Section 5.2.1 -  Is this a place where we need to look at replay?  I don't
think so because of the cryptographic wrapper, but we need to have that
discussion in the document.  Which indicates a pointer from this section to
where that discussion is.

* Section 5.4 - cs_alg should refer to the IANA registries not the COSE
document - what if there is a new signature algorithm, like say RSA.

* Section 6 - is it an error for a monitor to provide a public key?  After
all an invalid signature would not need to be checked.   To make life even
more fun, does the rsnonce need to be provided on a token post?

* Section 8 - For bullet 2.a - Is there a reason why this does not do the
rekey and return the new key material rather than returning an error?




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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, "hannes.tschofenig@arm.com" <hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>
CC: "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, "hannes.tschofenig@arm.com" <hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>
CC: "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 18:43:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, "hannes.tschofenig@arm.com" <hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>
CC: "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
Thread-Index: AdX5Y4V+g9fjGh5uRsiScwwq6J44pwCGGcwgABGPIRAAHHOKgA==
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 09:00:35 +0000
Message-ID: <80c2eaa89adc4c6bb4738b3f845ba5f7@combitech.se>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/MhHBM2nY7ccPISQ4UosN6HGb7A4>
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, "ludwig.seitz@combitech.se" <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
CC: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>, 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/ggLAoiCXvlIzprnvwinEIj0UT-k>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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Hi Jim, Hi Ludwig,

I created a PR at https://github.com/hannestschofenig/ace-oauth-params/pull=
/1

I wasn't quite sure how to set two registry values, namely (a) Additional T=
oken Endpoint Response Parameters and (b) HTTP Authentication Scheme(s).
For (a) I used "none" and for (b) I used "Bearer".

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 8:34 AM
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hi Jim,

I believe you are right that the functionality is supported. In retrospect =
it is good that Ludwig just imported the key transport necessary functional=
ity with draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params-12. Hence, you can do pretty everythin=
g defined in draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution with the ACE-OAuth frame=
work. Only one piece is missing in the IANA consideration section, namely t=
he registration of "pop" in the "OAuth Access Token Types" registry. That n=
eeds to be added. Not a big deal though. I will send text to Ludwig.

I am happy.

Ciao
Hannes

PS: I am not sure whether the authentication mechanisms defined in draft-ie=
tf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile are actually sound. Maybe I should do a formal anal=
ysis.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 12:10 AM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hannes,

This is going to be a long email and I hope that I do not get too many thin=
gs wrong in the process of getting it written up.

So the question that you raised is can the current MQTT profile use the exi=
sting OAuth and ACE-OAuth protocols.  My assertion is that the answer is ye=
s and I will walk through the two different protocols in order to demonstra=
te this.  For simplicilty I am only going to deal with one of the TLS confi=
gurations that the MQTT profile envisions.

For TLS authentication, the server is to be validated by using an X.509 cer=
tificate and there is to be a method for the client to be able to associate=
 the identifier in the certificate with the OAuth token request.
This I assume is a well understood problem in the OAuth WG.  The client is =
not authenticated to the server by TLS, this is deferred to MQTT protocol.
When using ACE-OAuth, this is generally going to be tied through the audien=
ce field in some method.

The format of the scope field is defined in the MQTT document and the AS wi=
ll need to be able to parse that field and do the proper enforcement.  I th=
ink this different than what a normal OAuth AS does where the scope is a si=
ngle value rather than a composite value.

The key which is placed in the token is going to be an asymmetric signing k=
ey.  This is the standard thing for OAuth.  At some point in the future it =
might be nice to allow for symmetric keys to be sent out, but for now the A=
CE-OAuth is sufficient for dealing with that case.

Using OAuth

The client makes a request to an OAuth authorization server for a token.
The grant_type for the token is going to be "client_credentials", the scope=
 is a text string defined by the MQTT profile document.  Authorization is n=
eeded for the connection.  My assumption is that this is now normally done =
by the use of HTTPS rather than something like basic authentication.

**************************************

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded

grant_type=3Dclient_credentials&
scope=3Dpublish_topic1/topic2%2Epublish_topic3/+/stats%2Esubscribe_topic3/#

**************************************

The AS response with a standard message

**************************************

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/json;charset=3DUTF-8

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",  "token_type":"bearer",
 "expires_in": 3600,
}

**************************************

The client now connects to the MQTT server using TLS, validating the certif=
icate of the server against it's trust anchors and the "known" name of the =
MQTT server.

The client now sends an MQTT CONNECT message to the server passing the JWT =
token in as part of the Authentication Data (section 2.2.4 of the MQTT docu=
ment).


****************************************************************

Using ACE-OAuth

*******

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
  "scope": "publish_topic1/topic2 publish_topic3/+/stats subscribe_topic3/#=
",
  "audience": "mqtts://mqtt.example.com"
}

******

For ACE-OAuth, the default value of grant_type is client_credentials so tha=
t parameter is omitted.


*****

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",
 "expires_in": 3600,
 "ace_profile" : "mqtt_tls"
}



As can be seen, there are only minimal differences between what is sent out=
 between the Vanilla and the ACE version of OAuth.  In both cases it is ass=
umed that the client is going to know which asymmetric key is going to be u=
sed.  There are a couple of differences however:

1.  I have used the value of "bearer" for "token_type" in OAuth because tha=
t seemed to me to be the one which mapped to the usage in a better manner.
The OAuth-ACE framework however registers the value of "PoP" and specifies =
it as the default value.  It may make more sense to use that value in the O=
Auth case as well.

2.  In the ACE-OAuth case, we can return a key to the user and thus be able=
 to do symmetric keys as well.  If you are already doing TLS and validating=
 signatures that way I would expect that this is not going to be a common c=
ase.

3.  In the ACE-OAuth case, it is possible to return information about the T=
LS key that the server would be using.  This would allow for situations wer=
e the MQTT TLS connection is not doing certificate chain validation, but in=
stead using information passed in the rs_cnf field to validate either the p=
ublic key or the certificate directly.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.


From nobody Tue Mar 17 04:41:49 2020
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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
CC: "'Cigdem Sengul'" <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>, "'Ace Wg'" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 11:41:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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I'm sorry if I'm being daft here, but what is the difference to=20
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33#section-8.5  ?

/Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Sent: den 17 mars 2020 12:38
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combite=
ch.se>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hi Jim, Hi Ludwig,

I created a PR at https://github.com/hannestschofenig/ace-oauth-params/pull=
/1

I wasn't quite sure how to set two registry values, namely (a) Additional T=
oken Endpoint Response Parameters and (b) HTTP Authentication Scheme(s).
For (a) I used "none" and for (b) I used "Bearer".

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 8:34 AM
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hi Jim,

I believe you are right that the functionality is supported. In retrospect =
it is good that Ludwig just imported the key transport necessary functional=
ity with draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params-12. Hence, you can do pretty everythin=
g defined in draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution with the ACE-OAuth frame=
work. Only one piece is missing in the IANA consideration section, namely t=
he registration of "pop" in the "OAuth Access Token Types" registry. That n=
eeds to be added. Not a big deal though. I will send text to Ludwig.

I am happy.

Ciao
Hannes

PS: I am not sure whether the authentication mechanisms defined in draft-ie=
tf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile are actually sound. Maybe I should do a formal anal=
ysis.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 12:10 AM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hannes,

This is going to be a long email and I hope that I do not get too many thin=
gs wrong in the process of getting it written up.

So the question that you raised is can the current MQTT profile use the exi=
sting OAuth and ACE-OAuth protocols.  My assertion is that the answer is ye=
s and I will walk through the two different protocols in order to demonstra=
te this.  For simplicilty I am only going to deal with one of the TLS confi=
gurations that the MQTT profile envisions.

For TLS authentication, the server is to be validated by using an X.509 cer=
tificate and there is to be a method for the client to be able to associate=
 the identifier in the certificate with the OAuth token request.
This I assume is a well understood problem in the OAuth WG.  The client is =
not authenticated to the server by TLS, this is deferred to MQTT protocol.
When using ACE-OAuth, this is generally going to be tied through the audien=
ce field in some method.

The format of the scope field is defined in the MQTT document and the AS wi=
ll need to be able to parse that field and do the proper enforcement.  I th=
ink this different than what a normal OAuth AS does where the scope is a si=
ngle value rather than a composite value.

The key which is placed in the token is going to be an asymmetric signing k=
ey.  This is the standard thing for OAuth.  At some point in the future it =
might be nice to allow for symmetric keys to be sent out, but for now the A=
CE-OAuth is sufficient for dealing with that case.

Using OAuth

The client makes a request to an OAuth authorization server for a token.
The grant_type for the token is going to be "client_credentials", the scope=
 is a text string defined by the MQTT profile document.  Authorization is n=
eeded for the connection.  My assumption is that this is now normally done =
by the use of HTTPS rather than something like basic authentication.

**************************************

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded

grant_type=3Dclient_credentials&
scope=3Dpublish_topic1/topic2%2Epublish_topic3/+/stats%2Esubscribe_topic3/#

**************************************

The AS response with a standard message

**************************************

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/json;charset=3DUTF-8

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",  "token_type":"bearer",
 "expires_in": 3600,
}

**************************************

The client now connects to the MQTT server using TLS, validating the certif=
icate of the server against it's trust anchors and the "known" name of the =
MQTT server.

The client now sends an MQTT CONNECT message to the server passing the JWT =
token in as part of the Authentication Data (section 2.2.4 of the MQTT docu=
ment).


****************************************************************

Using ACE-OAuth

*******

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
  "scope": "publish_topic1/topic2 publish_topic3/+/stats subscribe_topic3/#=
",
  "audience": "mqtts://mqtt.example.com"
}

******

For ACE-OAuth, the default value of grant_type is client_credentials so tha=
t parameter is omitted.


*****

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",
 "expires_in": 3600,
 "ace_profile" : "mqtt_tls"
}



As can be seen, there are only minimal differences between what is sent out=
 between the Vanilla and the ACE version of OAuth.  In both cases it is ass=
umed that the client is going to know which asymmetric key is going to be u=
sed.  There are a couple of differences however:

1.  I have used the value of "bearer" for "token_type" in OAuth because tha=
t seemed to me to be the one which mapped to the usage in a better manner.
The OAuth-ACE framework however registers the value of "PoP" and specifies =
it as the default value.  It may make more sense to use that value in the O=
Auth case as well.

2.  In the ACE-OAuth case, we can return a key to the user and thus be able=
 to do symmetric keys as well.  If you are already doing TLS and validating=
 signatures that way I would expect that this is not going to be a common c=
ase.

3.  In the ACE-OAuth case, it is possible to return information about the T=
LS key that the server would be using.  This would allow for situations wer=
e the MQTT TLS connection is not doing certificate chain validation, but in=
stead using information passed in the rs_cnf field to validate either the p=
ublic key or the certificate directly.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.


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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
CC: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>, 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/gmVyz2wqUJxytK9IqIjhUbgHe_U>
Subject: Re: [Ace] Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT
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Ludwig, you are right. I missed that. I was incorrectly looking at draft-ie=
tf-ace-oauth-params-12 where all the parameters are.
I will delete my PR.

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 12:41 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Jim Schaad <ietf@augustc=
ellars.com>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

I'm sorry if I'm being daft here, but what is the difference to
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33#section-8.5  ?

/Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Sent: den 17 mars 2020 12:38
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combite=
ch.se>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hi Jim, Hi Ludwig,

I created a PR at https://github.com/hannestschofenig/ace-oauth-params/pull=
/1

I wasn't quite sure how to set two registry values, namely (a) Additional T=
oken Endpoint Response Parameters and (b) HTTP Authentication Scheme(s).
For (a) I used "none" and for (b) I used "Bearer".

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 8:34 AM
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hi Jim,

I believe you are right that the functionality is supported. In retrospect =
it is good that Ludwig just imported the key transport necessary functional=
ity with draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params-12. Hence, you can do pretty everythin=
g defined in draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution with the ACE-OAuth frame=
work. Only one piece is missing in the IANA consideration section, namely t=
he registration of "pop" in the "OAuth Access Token Types" registry. That n=
eeds to be added. Not a big deal though. I will send text to Ludwig.

I am happy.

Ciao
Hannes

PS: I am not sure whether the authentication mechanisms defined in draft-ie=
tf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile are actually sound. Maybe I should do a formal anal=
ysis.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 12:10 AM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: 'Cigdem Sengul' <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>; 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
Subject: Using OAuth and ACE-OAuth with MQTT

Hannes,

This is going to be a long email and I hope that I do not get too many thin=
gs wrong in the process of getting it written up.

So the question that you raised is can the current MQTT profile use the exi=
sting OAuth and ACE-OAuth protocols.  My assertion is that the answer is ye=
s and I will walk through the two different protocols in order to demonstra=
te this.  For simplicilty I am only going to deal with one of the TLS confi=
gurations that the MQTT profile envisions.

For TLS authentication, the server is to be validated by using an X.509 cer=
tificate and there is to be a method for the client to be able to associate=
 the identifier in the certificate with the OAuth token request.
This I assume is a well understood problem in the OAuth WG.  The client is =
not authenticated to the server by TLS, this is deferred to MQTT protocol.
When using ACE-OAuth, this is generally going to be tied through the audien=
ce field in some method.

The format of the scope field is defined in the MQTT document and the AS wi=
ll need to be able to parse that field and do the proper enforcement.  I th=
ink this different than what a normal OAuth AS does where the scope is a si=
ngle value rather than a composite value.

The key which is placed in the token is going to be an asymmetric signing k=
ey.  This is the standard thing for OAuth.  At some point in the future it =
might be nice to allow for symmetric keys to be sent out, but for now the A=
CE-OAuth is sufficient for dealing with that case.

Using OAuth

The client makes a request to an OAuth authorization server for a token.
The grant_type for the token is going to be "client_credentials", the scope=
 is a text string defined by the MQTT profile document.  Authorization is n=
eeded for the connection.  My assumption is that this is now normally done =
by the use of HTTPS rather than something like basic authentication.

**************************************

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded

grant_type=3Dclient_credentials&
scope=3Dpublish_topic1/topic2%2Epublish_topic3/+/stats%2Esubscribe_topic3/#

**************************************

The AS response with a standard message

**************************************

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/json;charset=3DUTF-8

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",  "token_type":"bearer",
 "expires_in": 3600,
}

**************************************

The client now connects to the MQTT server using TLS, validating the certif=
icate of the server against it's trust anchors and the "known" name of the =
MQTT server.

The client now sends an MQTT CONNECT message to the server passing the JWT =
token in as part of the Authentication Data (section 2.2.4 of the MQTT docu=
ment).


****************************************************************

Using ACE-OAuth

*******

POST /token HTTP/1.1
Host: server.example.com
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
  "scope": "publish_topic1/topic2 publish_topic3/+/stats subscribe_topic3/#=
",
  "audience": "mqtts://mqtt.example.com"
}

******

For ACE-OAuth, the default value of grant_type is client_credentials so tha=
t parameter is omitted.


*****

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Content-Type: application/ace+json

{
 "access_token":"..... JWT token ......",
 "expires_in": 3600,
 "ace_profile" : "mqtt_tls"
}



As can be seen, there are only minimal differences between what is sent out=
 between the Vanilla and the ACE version of OAuth.  In both cases it is ass=
umed that the client is going to know which asymmetric key is going to be u=
sed.  There are a couple of differences however:

1.  I have used the value of "bearer" for "token_type" in OAuth because tha=
t seemed to me to be the one which mapped to the usage in a better manner.
The OAuth-ACE framework however registers the value of "PoP" and specifies =
it as the default value.  It may make more sense to use that value in the O=
Auth case as well.

2.  In the ACE-OAuth case, we can return a key to the user and thus be able=
 to do symmetric keys as well.  If you are already doing TLS and validating=
 signatures that way I would expect that this is not going to be a common c=
ase.

3.  In the ACE-OAuth case, it is possible to return information about the T=
LS key that the server would be using.  This would allow for situations wer=
e the MQTT TLS connection is not doing certificate chain validation, but in=
stead using information passed in the rs_cnf field to validate either the p=
ublic key or the certificate directly.


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From nobody Wed Mar 18 20:41:48 2020
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Subject: [Ace] Missing role
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There is a missing role/functionality that needs to be added to the
document.  "proxy signature checker" has the ability to get the public keys
associated with the different members of the group but does not get any
access to the symmetric keying material

Jim



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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, "hannes.tschofenig@arm.com" <hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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--_000_b6622f57c6de46fdb18a76b60dd4e8d1combitechse_--


From nobody Sat Mar 21 03:35:42 2020
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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, "hannes.tschofenig@arm.com" <hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>
CC: "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
Thread-Index: AdX5Y4V+g9fjGh5uRsiScwwq6J44pwCGGcwgABGPIRAAHHOKgADNxikAAAAj/jA=
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:34:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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To: 'Seitz Ludwig' <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, 'Mike Jones' <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, 'Chuck Mortimore' <charliemortimore@gmail.com>, <hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>
CC: <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, <ace@ietf.org>
References: <DM6PR00MB0682B491E8F97FDC54D39605F5FA0@DM6PR00MB0682.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <bf92a7996c9b4e5d936b8f0a0ff3c7a4@combitech.se> <DM6PR00MB068446BBDADA1515EFD6F166F5F90@DM6PR00MB0684.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <80c2eaa89adc4c6bb4738b3f845ba5f7@combitech.se> <b6622f57c6de46fdb18a76b60dd4e8d1@combitech.se> <13d46c5478b447b4ad010e27832280e9@combitech.se>
In-Reply-To: <13d46c5478b447b4ad010e27832280e9@combitech.se>
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:31:51 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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No you should not need to make any changes in the document.  This will =
be taken care of by the RFC Editor.

=20

Jim

=20

=20

From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Seitz Ludwig
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 3:35 AM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com>; hannes.tschofenig@arm.com
Cc: chuck.mortimore@visa.com; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; drafts-expert-review@iana.org; =
ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)

=20

Please disregard the last message (small keyboard, large fingers). What =
I intended to write was this:

=20

Sorry for the delay, I=E2=80=99ve now looked into the changes necessary =
and it basically is this line in the draft:

=20

8.13. CBOR Web Token Claims

[=E2=80=A6]

Claim Key: TBD (suggested: 9) -> =E2=80=A6 suggested: 42)

=20

I wonder if I need to make this change at all since the value is only =
suggested (and we now have a diverging decision by the designated =
experts). Can  IANA clarify this for me?

=20

Thank you for your patience,

=20

=20

Ludwig

=20

=20

From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >=20
Sent: den 21 mars 2020 11:26
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >; Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >; =
Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com =
<mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; hannes.tschofenig@arm.com =
<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org> ; draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>=20
Subject: RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

=20

Hello all, soo

=20

From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org> > On =
Behalf Of Seitz Ludwig
Sent: den 17 mars 2020 10:01
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; =
hannes.tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; drafts-expert-review@iana.org =
<mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org =
<mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)

=20

Fair enough, take my points as the author=E2=80=99s opinion only.  That =
leaves us with 3 experts to make the decision. Your position is clear, =
Chuck hasn=E2=80=99t commented on the latest exchange but he was =
agreeing with you before. I propose we give Hannes another day and if he =
doesn=E2=80=99t comment we go ahead with your decision, is that =
acceptable for you?

=20

/Ludwig

=20

=20

From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >=20
Sent: den 16 mars 2020 19:43
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; =
hannes.tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> =
; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

=20

Ludwig, yes, while you=E2=80=99re a designated expert, note that the =
instructions to the designated experts at =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8392#section-9 includes this text:

   In cases where a registration decision could

   be perceived as creating a conflict of interest for a particular

   Expert, that Expert should defer to the judgment of the other

   Experts.

=20

So, as I see it, you should actually recuse yourself from this decision. =
 That said, I=E2=80=99ve sent a private note to Hannes asking him to =
also weigh in.

=20

                                                       Cheers,

                                                       -- Mike

=20

From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >=20
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 3:18 AM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; =
hannes.tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> =
; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested =
review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR =
Web Token Claims)

=20

Hi Mike,

=20

I will of course abide with a majority decision of the designated =
experts (note that I=E2=80=99m one of them too). I would therefore be =
very interested to hear Hannes take on this.

=20

Regards,

=20

Ludwig

=20

From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >=20
Sent: den 13 mars 2020 19:17
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de <mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> >; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

=20

RFC 8693 defines the =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D JWT claim for use with =
OAuth 2.0, and so is application-specific =E2=80=93 just like the =
corresponding CWT =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D claim is specific to ACE =
OAuth.

=20

Unless Hannes (the other Designated Expert) disagrees with my and =
Chuck=E2=80=99s assessment by then, I propose that we proceed with the =
registrations on Monday, registering =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D with value =
41.

=20

                                                       -- Mike

=20

From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >=20
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:05 AM
To: Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com =
<mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de <mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> >; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

=20

Hello Mike, Chuck,

=20

Thank you for clarifying your assessment Mike, thank you Chuck for =
weighing in.

=20

Mike you say: =E2=80=9Cthe scope claim is specific to the ACE OAuth =
protocol=E2=80=9D

=20

This is not entirely correct, since the scope claim is defined  in  RFC =
8693 for Token Exchange, which is not an ACE protocol. Thus if any other =
protocol decides to use CWT and Token Exchange they would inherit the =
CWT abbreviation for that claim we are discussing here.

I would therefore argue that this claim abbreviation has a wider set of =
applications than just ACE.

=20

As for the sparseness of 1 byte abbreviations: The range goes from -24 =
to 23. The CWT RFC uses 0-8 and none other are currently registered, so =
we have a few ones left.

=20

Regards,

=20

Ludwig

=20

=20

From: Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com =
<mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >=20
Sent: den 12 mars 2020 01:12
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de <mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> >; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested =
review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR =
Web Token Claims)

=20

Agree with Mike's assessment.   (One caveat to that is that I'm not =
close enough to CWT to understand how scare the single byte identifiers =
actually are.)

=20

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:39 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> > wrote:

[Adding correct e-mail addresses for Chuck, who recently joined Visa]

=20

There are two reasons that I believe not using up one of the scarce =
one-byte claim identifiers for "scope" is appropriate:

1.	The claim values for scopes are not short themselves.  They are sets =
of ASCII strings separated by spaces. So the percentage difference in =
the total claim representation from adding a single byte will typically =
be small.
2.	The single-byte claim identifiers already registered at =
https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml are claims that are =
likely to be useful to diverse sets of applications, and therefore merit =
the short identifiers; whereas, the scope claim is specific to the ACE =
OAuth protocol and not applicable to diverse sets of applications.  =
It=E2=80=99s reasonable to give protocol-specific claim identifiers =
2-byte representations.

=20

I=E2=80=99d be interested to hear from the two other designated experts =
on my assessment of the situation: Hannes and Chuck.

=20

                                                       -- Mike

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Cwt-reg-review <cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> > On Behalf Of Ludwig Seitz
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM
To: drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> =
; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>=20
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested =
review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR =
Web Token Claims)

=20

On 2020-02-26 00:58, Amanda Baber via RT wrote:

> Ludwig, Hannes,

>=20

> Can you confirm that you can make the CBOR Web Token Claim change=20

> requested below?

>=20

> We also have Chuck Mortimore listed as an expert for this registry,=20

> but our message to his Salesforce address bounced.

>=20

> Best regards,

>=20

> Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist

>=20

=20

I strongly disagree with the assessment that the scope claim should be =
pushed into the two-byte range.

=20

The reason we introduced the scope claim is that an ACE RS typically =
does not have a direct connection to the AS, and is therefore unable to =
retrieve the scope of an access token from other sources than the access =
token itself.  I therefore assert that ACE access tokens would often =
need to contain this claim in order to inform the RS.

Since one of the major drivers of the ACE work has been to reduce the =
authorization overhead (otherwise we could just have used vanilla OAuth =
2.0), I find it strange to needlessly add to the overhead by making the =
encoding of a frequently used claim longer than necessary.

=20

I am willing to listen to the arguments that have lead the expert =
reviewer to denying a value in the one-byte range, and discuss the =
reasoning further on list.

=20

Regards,

=20

Ludwig

=20

=20

> On Tue Feb 18 22:42:22 2020,  <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com wrote:

>> I'm mostly OK with these registrations, however, DO NOT assign the

>> value 9 to "scope".   Rather, please put it in the two-byte range

>> - for instance, with the value 41.

>>=20

>> -- Mike

>>=20

>> -----Original Message----- From: Cwt-reg-review=20

>> < <mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> =
cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via RT=20

>> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 1:06 PM Cc:

>>  <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> cwt-reg-review@ietf.org Subject: =
[EXTERNAL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA=20

>> #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in=20

>> draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

>>=20

>> Hi all,

>>=20

>> Resending this request for draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz.

>>=20

>> Thanks,

>>=20

>> Sabrina Tanamal Senior IANA Services Specialist

>>=20

>>> On Sat Dec 21 11:37:11 2019,  <mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> =
ludwig_seitz@gmx.de wrote:

>>>> Hello CWT registry reviewers,

>>>>=20

>>>> the IESG-designated experts for the CWT claims registry have asked=20

>>>> me to send a review request to you about the claims registered=20

>>>> here:

>>>>=20

>>>>  =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft> =
https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft

>>>> o

>>>>=20

>>>>=20

ols.ietf.org <http://ols.ietf.org> =
%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-29%23section-

>>>> 8.13&a

>>>> mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com =
<http://40microsoft.com> %7Ce23f64ac1ad74269c

>>>> 3

>>>>=20

>>>>=20

c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63717656

>>>> =
7656665548&amp;sdata=3Dr01W5Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk%

>>>> 3

>>>>=20

>>>>=20

D&amp;reserved=3D0

>>>>=20

>>>> Thank you in advance for you review comments.

>>>>=20

>>>> Regards,

>>>>=20

>>>> Ludwig

>>>>=20

>>=20

>> _______________________________________________ Cwt-reg-review=20

>> mailing list  <mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> =
Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org

>>  =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww>=
 https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww

>> .ietf.org <http://ietf.org> %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-

>>=20

>>=20

reg-

>> review&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com =
<http://40microsoft.com> %7Ce23f64ac1ad

>> 74269c3c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63

>> =
7176567656675543&amp;sdata=3DXxBhQmqxGkCRiBxh0PdhX2IJD8TnbwWl%2Feo8VUsH

>> Osg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

>=20

=20

_______________________________________________

Cwt-reg-review mailing list

 <mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org

 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review> =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review


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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>No you =
should not need to make any changes in the document.=C2=A0 This will be =
taken care of by the RFC Editor.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Jim<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Ace &lt;ace-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Seitz =
Ludwig<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 21, 2020 3:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Mike Jones &lt;Michael.Jones@microsoft.com&gt;; Chuck Mortimore =
&lt;charliemortimore@gmail.com&gt;; =
hannes.tschofenig@arm.com<br><b>Cc:</b> chuck.mortimore@visa.com; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org; ace@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Please disregard the last message (small keyboard, large fingers). What =
I intended to write was this:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Sorry for the delay, I=E2=80=99ve now looked into the changes necessary =
and it basically is this line in the draft:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>8.13. CBOR Web Token Claims<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[=E2=80=A6]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Claim Key: TBD (suggested: 9) -&gt; =E2=80=A6 suggested: =
42)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I wonder if I need to make this change at all since the value is only =
suggested (and we now have a diverging decision by the designated =
experts). Can &nbsp;IANA clarify this for me?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Thank you for your patience,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Ludwig<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Seitz Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 21 mars 2020 11:26<br><b>To:</b> Seitz Ludwig =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><br><b=
>Subject:</b> RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Hello all, soo<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Ace &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org">ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seitz Ludwig<br><b>Sent:</b> den 17 mars 2020 =
10:01<br><b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><br><b=
>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested =
review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR =
Web Token Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Fair enough, take my points as the author=E2=80=99s opinion only.&nbsp; =
That leaves us with 3 experts to make the decision. Your position is =
clear, Chuck hasn=E2=80=99t commented on the latest exchange but he was =
agreeing with you before. I propose we give Hannes another day and if he =
doesn=E2=80=99t comment we go ahead with your decision, is that =
acceptable for you?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>/Ludwig<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 16 mars 2020 19:43<br><b>To:</b> Seitz =
Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>Ludwig, yes, while you=E2=80=99re a designated expert, note that the =
instructions to the designated experts at <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8392#section-9">https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/rfc8392#section-9</a> includes this =
text:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:whi=
te'>&nbsp;&nbsp; In cases where a registration decision =
could<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:whi=
te'>&nbsp;&nbsp; be perceived as creating a conflict of interest for a =
particular<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:whi=
te'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Expert, that Expert should defer to the judgment of the =
other<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:whi=
te'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Experts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>So, as I see it, you should actually recuse yourself from this =
decision.&nbsp; That said, I=E2=80=99ve sent a private note to Hannes =
asking him to also weigh in.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Seitz Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t; <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 16, 2020 3:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> Mike =
Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> =
[EXTERNAL] RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Hi Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I will of course abide with a majority decision of the designated =
experts (note that I=E2=80=99m one of them too). I would therefore be =
very interested to hear Hannes take on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Ludwig<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 13 mars 2020 19:17<br><b>To:</b> Seitz =
Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Ludwig Seitz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de">ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>RFC 8693 defines the =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D JWT claim for use with =
OAuth 2.0, and so is application-specific =E2=80=93 just like the =
corresponding CWT =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D claim is specific to ACE =
OAuth.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>Unless Hannes (the other Designated Expert) disagrees with my and =
Chuck=E2=80=99s assessment by then, I propose that we proceed with the =
registrations on Monday, registering =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D with value =
41.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Seitz Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t; <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> Chuck =
Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Ludwig Seitz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de">ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Mike, =
Chuck,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you for clarifying your assessment Mike, thank =
you Chuck for weighing in.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Mike you =
say: =E2=80=9Cthe scope claim is specific to the ACE OAuth =
protocol=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This is not =
entirely correct, since the scope claim is defined &nbsp;in &nbsp;RFC =
8693 for Token Exchange, which is not an ACE protocol. Thus if any other =
protocol decides to use CWT and Token Exchange they would inherit the =
CWT abbreviation for that claim we are discussing here.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I would therefore argue that this claim abbreviation =
has a wider set of applications than just ACE.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As for the =
sparseness of 1 byte abbreviations: The range goes from -24 to 23. The =
CWT RFC uses 0-8 and none other are currently registered, so we have a =
few ones left.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Ludwig<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 12 mars 2020 01:12<br><b>To:</b> Mike Jones =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Ludwig Seitz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de">ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Agree =
with Mike's assessment. &nbsp; (One caveat to that is that I'm not close =
enough to CWT to understand how scare the single byte identifiers =
actually are.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, =
Mar 11, 2020 at 4:39 PM Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>[Adding correct e-mail =
addresses for Chuck, who recently joined Visa]<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>There are two reasons =
that I believe not using up one of the scarce one-byte claim identifiers =
for &quot;scope&quot; is appropriate:<o:p></o:p></p><ol start=3D1 =
type=3D1><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>The claim values for scopes are not short themselves.&nbsp; =
They are sets of ASCII strings separated by spaces. So the percentage =
difference in the total claim representation from adding a single byte =
will typically be small.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>The single-byte claim identifiers already registered at <a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml</a> are =
claims that are likely to be useful to diverse sets of applications, and =
therefore merit the short identifiers; whereas, the scope claim is =
specific to the ACE OAuth protocol and not applicable to diverse sets of =
applications.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s reasonable to give protocol-specific =
claim identifiers 2-byte representations.<o:p></o:p></li></ol><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>I=E2=80=99d be interested =
to hear from the two other designated experts on my assessment of the =
situation: Hannes and Chuck.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: Cwt-reg-review &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of =
Ludwig Seitz<br>Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM<br>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org" =
target=3D"_blank">drafts-expert-review@iana.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><br>Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">ace@ietf.org</a><br>Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>On 2020-02-26 00:58, =
Amanda Baber via RT wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; Ludwig, =
Hannes,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; Can you confirm =
that you can make the CBOR Web Token Claim change <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; requested =
below?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; We also have Chuck =
Mortimore listed as an expert for this registry, <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; but our message to =
his Salesforce address bounced.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; Best =
regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; Amanda Baber Lead =
IANA Services Specialist<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>I strongly disagree with =
the assessment that the scope claim should be pushed into the two-byte =
range.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>The reason we introduced =
the scope claim is that an ACE RS typically does not have a direct =
connection to the AS, and is therefore unable to retrieve the scope of =
an access token from other sources than the access token itself.&nbsp; I =
therefore assert that ACE access tokens would often need to contain this =
claim in order to inform the RS.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>Since one of the major =
drivers of the ACE work has been to reduce the authorization overhead =
(otherwise we could just have used vanilla OAuth 2.0), I find it strange =
to needlessly add to the overhead by making the encoding of a frequently =
used claim longer than necessary.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>I am willing to listen to =
the arguments that have lead the expert reviewer to denying a value in =
the one-byte range, and discuss the reasoning further on =
list.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>Ludwig<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; On Tue Feb 18 =
22:42:22 2020, <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Michael.Jones@microsoft.c=
om</span></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; I'm mostly OK =
with these registrations, however, DO NOT assign the<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; value 9 to =
&quot;scope&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; Rather, please put it in the two-byte =
range<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; - for instance, =
with the value 41.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; -- =
Mike<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
-----Original Message----- From: Cwt-reg-review <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>cwt-reg-review-bounces@ie=
tf.org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via RT =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, =
February 18, 2020 1:06 PM Cc:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</=
span></a> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; #1158953] =
Requested review for IANA registration in <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; Resending =
this request for draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; Sabrina =
Tanamal Senior IANA Services Specialist<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat =
Dec 21 11:37:11 2019, <a href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</span=
></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello =
CWT registry reviewers,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the =
IESG-designated experts for the CWT claims registry have asked =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; me to =
send a review request to you about the claims registered =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
here:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Ft" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://nam06.safelinks.p=
rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
o<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext><a =
href=3D"http://ols.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">ols.ietf.org</a>%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-29=
%23section-<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
8.13&amp;a<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%<a href=3D"http://40microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank">40microsoft.com</a>%7Ce23f64ac1ad74269c<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
3<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf8=
6f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63717656<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
7656665548&amp;amp;sdata=3Dr01W5Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk%=
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
3<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>D&amp;amp;reserved=3D0<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank =
you in advance for you review comments.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Ludwig<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________ Cwt-reg-review =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; mailing list <a =
href=3D"mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</=
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p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; .<a =
href=3D"http://ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf.org</a>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>reg-<o:p></o:p></p><p =
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review&amp;amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%<a =
href=3D"http://40microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank">40microsoft.com</a>%7Ce23f64ac1ad<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
74269c3c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63<o:p=
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sH<o:p></o:p></p><p =
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p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>__________________________=
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style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</=
span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext><a =
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, 'Seitz Ludwig' <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, 'Mike Jones' <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, 'Chuck Mortimore' <charliemortimore@gmail.com>
CC: "chuck.mortimore@visa.com" <chuck.mortimore@visa.com>, "cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" <cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org>, "drafts-expert-review@iana.org" <drafts-expert-review@iana.org>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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--_000_AM0PR08MB37163FAD85BF023E136912E7FAF00AM0PR08MB3716eurp_--


From nobody Mon Mar 23 10:37:09 2020
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm@ietf.org>
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:36:33 -0700
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Subject: [Ace] Congestion control needs to be included
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I had a weird weekend trying to get coverage testing up for my Observe
implementation and in the process found out that it had not implemented the
required congestion control.  As part of this I had to go back and do a
careful read of RFC 7641 to get things right in my code and following that I
thought that this document really needs to have a discussion of congestion
control as well.  Part of this can be a reference to section 4.5.1 of RFC
7641 where we are using observe but we need to go through the document and
potentially look at some other places where we need to discuss congestion as
well.

I will also note that observe does not guarantee that all messages will be
sent to a client, just that after a while it will have the most current
version of the content.  This means that there is a high probability that
clients will not get every update of key material if turn over is being done
at all quickly.

Jim



From nobody Mon Mar 23 10:55:10 2020
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Hannes Tschofenig' <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, 'Seitz Ludwig' <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, 'Mike Jones' <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, 'Chuck Mortimore' <charliemortimore@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
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And I thought this was why we =E2=80=9Chired=E2=80=9D experts.

=20

As has been  noted previously in this discussion, there is no =
requirement that the scope must be a text string, it can be a binary =
string as well.  Further, I believe that there will start being some =
dictionary work being done at some point in the future when defining a =
new scope format so that any text strings could be compressed down.

=20

I also am of the opinion that one of the major uses of CWTs is going to =
be as an authorization token and that scoping of authorization is an =
important part of this.   I would probably be more sympathetic to the =
argument of making it two bytes if that had been done for about half of =
the items currently registered.

=20

I would make it a one byte because I think it is important, is going to =
be used by a lot of places where just audience is not sufficient to =
restrict scope, and ACE is the current hotspot where it is going to be =
used.  Both for general purpose authorization and for the =
group/multicast authorization as well.  My current expectation is still =
that most of the time HTTP will be using JWT not CWT. =20

=20

Jim

=20

=20

From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 6:41 AM
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; 'Seitz Ludwig' =
<ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>; 'Mike Jones' <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; =
'Chuck Mortimore' <charliemortimore@gmail.com>
Cc: chuck.mortimore@visa.com; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; drafts-expert-review@iana.org; =
ace@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)

=20

Hi all,=20

=20

This is an interesting case.=20

=20

CWT was created based on the work on ACE-OAuth. I would therefore agree =
with Ludwig that it should receive priority treatment with regards to =
the selection of the value encodings.=20

=20

I do, however, also have sympathy for the argument Chuck mentioned =
regarding the scope encoded as a string. Of course, there is no need to =
encode the scope as a human-readable string. =20

=20

The main question is whether we should argue about one byte.=20

=20

Highly-paid ACE chairs: what is your opinion?=20

=20

Ciao
Hannes

=20

=20

From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com <mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com> =
>=20
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 4:32 PM
To: 'Seitz Ludwig' <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >; 'Mike Jones' =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >; =
'Chuck Mortimore' <charliemortimore@gmail.com =
<mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; Hannes Tschofenig =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> >
Cc: chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: RE: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)

=20

No you should not need to make any changes in the document.  This will =
be taken care of by the RFC Editor.

=20

Jim

=20

=20

From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org> > On =
Behalf Of Seitz Ludwig
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 3:35 AM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; =
hannes.tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)

=20

Please disregard the last message (small keyboard, large fingers). What =
I intended to write was this:

=20

Sorry for the delay, I=E2=80=99ve now looked into the changes necessary =
and it basically is this line in the draft:

=20

8.13. CBOR Web Token Claims

[=E2=80=A6]

Claim Key: TBD (suggested: 9) -> =E2=80=A6 suggested: 42)

=20

I wonder if I need to make this change at all since the value is only =
suggested (and we now have a diverging decision by the designated =
experts). Can  IANA clarify this for me?

=20

Thank you for your patience,

=20

=20

Ludwig

=20

=20

From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >=20
Sent: den 21 mars 2020 11:26
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >; Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >; =
Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com =
<mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; hannes.tschofenig@arm.com =
<mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org> ; draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>=20
Subject: RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

=20

Hello all, soo

=20

From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org> > On =
Behalf Of Seitz Ludwig
Sent: den 17 mars 2020 10:01
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; =
hannes.tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org> ; draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)

=20

Fair enough, take my points as the author=E2=80=99s opinion only.  That =
leaves us with 3 experts to make the decision. Your position is clear, =
Chuck hasn=E2=80=99t commented on the latest exchange but he was =
agreeing with you before. I propose we give Hannes another day and if he =
doesn=E2=80=99t comment we go ahead with your decision, is that =
acceptable for you?

=20

/Ludwig

=20

=20

From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >=20
Sent: den 16 mars 2020 19:43
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; =
hannes.tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> =
; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

=20

Ludwig, yes, while you=E2=80=99re a designated expert, note that the =
instructions to the designated experts at =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8392#section-9 includes this text:

   In cases where a registration decision could

   be perceived as creating a conflict of interest for a particular

   Expert, that Expert should defer to the judgment of the other

   Experts.

=20

So, as I see it, you should actually recuse yourself from this decision. =
 That said, I=E2=80=99ve sent a private note to Hannes asking him to =
also weigh in.

=20

                                                       Cheers,

                                                       -- Mike

=20

From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >=20
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 3:18 AM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; =
hannes.tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com>=20
Cc: drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> =
; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested =
review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR =
Web Token Claims)

=20

Hi Mike,

=20

I will of course abide with a majority decision of the designated =
experts (note that I=E2=80=99m one of them too). I would therefore be =
very interested to hear Hannes take on this.

=20

Regards,

=20

Ludwig

=20

From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >=20
Sent: den 13 mars 2020 19:17
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >; Chuck Mortimore =
<charliemortimore@gmail.com <mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de <mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> >; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

=20

RFC 8693 defines the =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D JWT claim for use with =
OAuth 2.0, and so is application-specific =E2=80=93 just like the =
corresponding CWT =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D claim is specific to ACE =
OAuth.

=20

Unless Hannes (the other Designated Expert) disagrees with my and =
Chuck=E2=80=99s assessment by then, I propose that we proceed with the =
registrations on Monday, registering =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D with value =
41.

=20

                                                       -- Mike

=20

From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se =
<mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> >=20
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:05 AM
To: Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com =
<mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >; Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de <mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> >; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

=20

Hello Mike, Chuck,

=20

Thank you for clarifying your assessment Mike, thank you Chuck for =
weighing in.

=20

Mike you say: =E2=80=9Cthe scope claim is specific to the ACE OAuth =
protocol=E2=80=9D

=20

This is not entirely correct, since the scope claim is defined  in  RFC =
8693 for Token Exchange, which is not an ACE protocol. Thus if any other =
protocol decides to use CWT and Token Exchange they would inherit the =
CWT abbreviation for that claim we are discussing here.

I would therefore argue that this claim abbreviation has a wider set of =
applications than just ACE.

=20

As for the sparseness of 1 byte abbreviations: The range goes from -24 =
to 23. The CWT RFC uses 0-8 and none other are currently registered, so =
we have a few ones left.

=20

Regards,

=20

Ludwig

=20

=20

From: Chuck Mortimore <charliemortimore@gmail.com =
<mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com> >=20
Sent: den 12 mars 2020 01:12
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> >
Cc: Ludwig Seitz <ludwig_seitz@gmx.de <mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> >; =
drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> ; =
cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> ; =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com <mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com> ; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested =
review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR =
Web Token Claims)

=20

Agree with Mike's assessment.   (One caveat to that is that I'm not =
close enough to CWT to understand how scare the single byte identifiers =
actually are.)

=20

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:39 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> > wrote:

[Adding correct e-mail addresses for Chuck, who recently joined Visa]

=20

There are two reasons that I believe not using up one of the scarce =
one-byte claim identifiers for "scope" is appropriate:

1.	The claim values for scopes are not short themselves.  They are sets =
of ASCII strings separated by spaces. So the percentage difference in =
the total claim representation from adding a single byte will typically =
be small.
2.	The single-byte claim identifiers already registered at =
https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml are claims that are =
likely to be useful to diverse sets of applications, and therefore merit =
the short identifiers; whereas, the scope claim is specific to the ACE =
OAuth protocol and not applicable to diverse sets of applications.  =
It=E2=80=99s reasonable to give protocol-specific claim identifiers =
2-byte representations.

=20

I=E2=80=99d be interested to hear from the two other designated experts =
on my assessment of the situation: Hannes and Chuck.

=20

                                                       -- Mike

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Cwt-reg-review <cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> > On Behalf Of Ludwig Seitz
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM
To: drafts-expert-review@iana.org <mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org> =
; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org>=20
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org> ; ace@ietf.org =
<mailto:ace@ietf.org>=20
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested =
review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR =
Web Token Claims)

=20

On 2020-02-26 00:58, Amanda Baber via RT wrote:

> Ludwig, Hannes,

>=20

> Can you confirm that you can make the CBOR Web Token Claim change=20

> requested below?

>=20

> We also have Chuck Mortimore listed as an expert for this registry,=20

> but our message to his Salesforce address bounced.

>=20

> Best regards,

>=20

> Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist

>=20

=20

I strongly disagree with the assessment that the scope claim should be =
pushed into the two-byte range.

=20

The reason we introduced the scope claim is that an ACE RS typically =
does not have a direct connection to the AS, and is therefore unable to =
retrieve the scope of an access token from other sources than the access =
token itself.  I therefore assert that ACE access tokens would often =
need to contain this claim in order to inform the RS.

Since one of the major drivers of the ACE work has been to reduce the =
authorization overhead (otherwise we could just have used vanilla OAuth =
2.0), I find it strange to needlessly add to the overhead by making the =
encoding of a frequently used claim longer than necessary.

=20

I am willing to listen to the arguments that have lead the expert =
reviewer to denying a value in the one-byte range, and discuss the =
reasoning further on list.

=20

Regards,

=20

Ludwig

=20

=20

> On Tue Feb 18 22:42:22 2020,  <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com wrote:

>> I'm mostly OK with these registrations, however, DO NOT assign the

>> value 9 to "scope".   Rather, please put it in the two-byte range

>> - for instance, with the value 41.

>>=20

>> -- Mike

>>=20

>> -----Original Message----- From: Cwt-reg-review=20

>> < <mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> =
cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via RT=20

>> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 1:06 PM Cc:

>>  <mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> cwt-reg-review@ietf.org Subject: =
[EXTERNAL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA=20

>> #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in=20

>> draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)

>>=20

>> Hi all,

>>=20

>> Resending this request for draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz.

>>=20

>> Thanks,

>>=20

>> Sabrina Tanamal Senior IANA Services Specialist

>>=20

>>> On Sat Dec 21 11:37:11 2019,  <mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de> =
ludwig_seitz@gmx.de wrote:

>>>> Hello CWT registry reviewers,

>>>>=20

>>>> the IESG-designated experts for the CWT claims registry have asked=20

>>>> me to send a review request to you about the claims registered=20

>>>> here:

>>>>=20

>>>>  =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft> =
https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft

>>>> o

>>>>=20

>>>>=20

ols.ietf.org <http://ols.ietf.org> =
%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-29%23section-

>>>> 8.13&a

>>>> mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com =
<http://40microsoft.com> %7Ce23f64ac1ad74269c

>>>> 3

>>>>=20

>>>>=20

c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63717656

>>>> =
7656665548&amp;sdata=3Dr01W5Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk%

>>>> 3

>>>>=20

>>>>=20

D&amp;reserved=3D0

>>>>=20

>>>> Thank you in advance for you review comments.

>>>>=20

>>>> Regards,

>>>>=20

>>>> Ludwig

>>>>=20

>>=20

>> _______________________________________________ Cwt-reg-review=20

>> mailing list  <mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> =
Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org

>>  =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww>=
 https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww

>> .ietf.org <http://ietf.org> %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-

>>=20

>>=20

reg-

>> review&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%40microsoft.com =
<http://40microsoft.com> %7Ce23f64ac1ad

>> 74269c3c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63

>> =
7176567656675543&amp;sdata=3DXxBhQmqxGkCRiBxh0PdhX2IJD8TnbwWl%2Feo8VUsH

>> Osg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

>=20

=20

_______________________________________________

Cwt-reg-review mailing list

 <mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org> Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org

 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review> =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>And I =
thought this was why we =E2=80=9Chired=E2=80=9D =
experts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>As has =
been=C2=A0 noted previously in this discussion, there is no requirement =
that the scope must be a text string, it can be a binary string as =
well.=C2=A0 Further, I believe that there will start being some =
dictionary work being done at some point in the future when defining a =
new scope format so that any text strings could be compressed =
down.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I also am of =
the opinion that one of the major uses of CWTs is going to be as an =
authorization token and that scoping of authorization is an important =
part of this.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I would probably be more sympathetic to the =
argument of making it two bytes if that had been done for about half of =
the items currently registered.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I would make =
it a one byte because I think it is important, is going to be used by a =
lot of places where just audience is not sufficient to restrict scope, =
and ACE is the current hotspot where it is going to be used.=C2=A0 Both =
for general purpose authorization and for the group/multicast =
authorization as well.=C2=A0 My current expectation is still that most =
of the time HTTP will be using JWT not CWT.=C2=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Jim<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Monday, March 23, 2020 6:41 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jim Schaad =
&lt;ietf@augustcellars.com&gt;; 'Seitz Ludwig' =
&lt;ludwig.seitz@combitech.se&gt;; 'Mike Jones' =
&lt;Michael.Jones@microsoft.com&gt;; 'Chuck Mortimore' =
&lt;charliemortimore@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
chuck.mortimore@visa.com; cwt-reg-review@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org; drafts-expert-review@iana.org; =
ace@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA =
#1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi all, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>This is an =
interesting case. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>CWT was =
created based on the work on ACE-OAuth. I would therefore agree with =
Ludwig that it should receive priority treatment with regards to the =
selection of the value encodings. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I do, =
however, also have sympathy for the argument Chuck mentioned regarding =
the scope encoded as a string. Of course, there is no need to encode the =
scope as a human-readable string. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>The main =
question is whether we should argue about one byte. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Highly-paid =
ACE chairs: what is your opinion? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Ciao<br>Hanne=
s<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 21, 2020 4:32 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Seitz =
Ludwig' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t;; 'Mike Jones' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; 'Chuck Mortimore' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&g=
t;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>No you =
should not need to make any changes in the document.&nbsp; This will be =
taken care of by the RFC Editor.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Jim<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Ace &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org">ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seitz Ludwig<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 21, 2020 3:35 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA =
registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Please disregard the last message (small keyboard, large fingers). What =
I intended to write was this:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Sorry for the delay, I=E2=80=99ve now looked into the changes necessary =
and it basically is this line in the draft:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>8.13. CBOR Web Token Claims<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>[=E2=80=A6]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Claim Key: TBD (suggested: 9) -&gt; =E2=80=A6 suggested: =
42)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I wonder if I need to make this change at all since the value is only =
suggested (and we now have a diverging decision by the designated =
experts). Can &nbsp;IANA clarify this for me?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Thank you for your patience,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Ludwig<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Seitz Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 21 mars 2020 11:26<br><b>To:</b> Seitz Ludwig =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><br><b=
>Subject:</b> RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Hello all, soo<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Ace &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org">ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seitz Ludwig<br><b>Sent:</b> den 17 mars 2020 =
10:01<br><b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><br><b=
>Subject:</b> Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested =
review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR =
Web Token Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Fair enough, take my points as the author=E2=80=99s opinion only.&nbsp; =
That leaves us with 3 experts to make the decision. Your position is =
clear, Chuck hasn=E2=80=99t commented on the latest exchange but he was =
agreeing with you before. I propose we give Hannes another day and if he =
doesn=E2=80=99t comment we go ahead with your decision, is that =
acceptable for you?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>/Ludwig<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 16 mars 2020 19:43<br><b>To:</b> Seitz =
Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>Ludwig, yes, while you=E2=80=99re a designated expert, note that the =
instructions to the designated experts at <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8392#section-9">https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/rfc8392#section-9</a> includes this =
text:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:whi=
te'>&nbsp;&nbsp; In cases where a registration decision =
could<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:whi=
te'>&nbsp;&nbsp; be perceived as creating a conflict of interest for a =
particular<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:whi=
te'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Expert, that Expert should defer to the judgment of the =
other<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:whi=
te'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Experts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>So, as I see it, you should actually recuse yourself from this =
decision.&nbsp; That said, I=E2=80=99ve sent a private note to Hannes =
asking him to also weigh in.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Seitz Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t; <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 16, 2020 3:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> Mike =
Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@arm.com">hannes.tschofenig@arm.com</a><b=
r><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> =
[EXTERNAL] RE: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Hi Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I will of course abide with a majority decision of the designated =
experts (note that I=E2=80=99m one of them too). I would therefore be =
very interested to hear Hannes take on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Ludwig<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 13 mars 2020 19:17<br><b>To:</b> Seitz =
Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t;; Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Ludwig Seitz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de">ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>RFC 8693 defines the =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D JWT claim for use with =
OAuth 2.0, and so is application-specific =E2=80=93 just like the =
corresponding CWT =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D claim is specific to ACE =
OAuth.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>Unless Hannes (the other Designated Expert) disagrees with my and =
Chuck=E2=80=99s assessment by then, I propose that we proceed with the =
registrations on Monday, registering =E2=80=9Cscope=E2=80=9D with value =
41.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Seitz Ludwig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig.seitz@combitech.se">ludwig.seitz@combitech.se</a>&g=
t; <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> Chuck =
Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Ludwig Seitz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de">ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello Mike, =
Chuck,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you for clarifying your assessment Mike, thank =
you Chuck for weighing in.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Mike you =
say: =E2=80=9Cthe scope claim is specific to the ACE OAuth =
protocol=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This is not =
entirely correct, since the scope claim is defined &nbsp;in &nbsp;RFC =
8693 for Token Exchange, which is not an ACE protocol. Thus if any other =
protocol decides to use CWT and Token Exchange they would inherit the =
CWT abbreviation for that claim we are discussing here.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I would therefore argue that this claim abbreviation =
has a wider set of applications than just ACE.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As for the =
sparseness of 1 byte abbreviations: The range goes from -24 to 23. The =
CWT RFC uses 0-8 and none other are currently registered, so we have a =
few ones left.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Ludwig<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Chuck Mortimore &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charliemortimore@gmail.com">charliemortimore@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 12 mars 2020 01:12<br><b>To:</b> Mike Jones =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Ludwig Seitz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de">ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org">drafts-expert-review@iana.o=
rg</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:chuck.mortimore@visa.com">chuck.mortimore@visa.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-=
authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org">ace@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[EXTERNAL] Re: [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for =
IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Agree =
with Mike's assessment. &nbsp; (One caveat to that is that I'm not close =
enough to CWT to understand how scare the single byte identifiers =
actually are.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, =
Mar 11, 2020 at 4:39 PM Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>[Adding correct e-mail =
addresses for Chuck, who recently joined Visa]<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>There are two reasons =
that I believe not using up one of the scarce one-byte claim identifiers =
for &quot;scope&quot; is appropriate:<o:p></o:p></p><ol start=3D1 =
type=3D1><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo3'>The claim values for scopes are not short themselves.&nbsp; =
They are sets of ASCII strings separated by spaces. So the percentage =
difference in the total claim representation from adding a single byte =
will typically be small.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 =
level1 lfo3'>The single-byte claim identifiers already registered at <a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml</a> are =
claims that are likely to be useful to diverse sets of applications, and =
therefore merit the short identifiers; whereas, the scope claim is =
specific to the ACE OAuth protocol and not applicable to diverse sets of =
applications.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s reasonable to give protocol-specific =
claim identifiers 2-byte representations.<o:p></o:p></li></ol><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>I=E2=80=99d be interested =
to hear from the two other designated experts on my assessment of the =
situation: Hannes and Chuck.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: Cwt-reg-review &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of =
Ludwig Seitz<br>Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 6:25 AM<br>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:drafts-expert-review@iana.org" =
target=3D"_blank">drafts-expert-review@iana.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><br>Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">ace@ietf.org</a><br>Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: =
[Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration =
in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>On 2020-02-26 00:58, =
Amanda Baber via RT wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; Ludwig, =
Hannes,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; Can you confirm =
that you can make the CBOR Web Token Claim change <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; requested =
below?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; We also have Chuck =
Mortimore listed as an expert for this registry, <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; but our message to =
his Salesforce address bounced.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; Best =
regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; Amanda Baber Lead =
IANA Services Specialist<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>I strongly disagree with =
the assessment that the scope claim should be pushed into the two-byte =
range.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>The reason we introduced =
the scope claim is that an ACE RS typically does not have a direct =
connection to the AS, and is therefore unable to retrieve the scope of =
an access token from other sources than the access token itself.&nbsp; I =
therefore assert that ACE access tokens would often need to contain this =
claim in order to inform the RS.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>Since one of the major =
drivers of the ACE work has been to reduce the authorization overhead =
(otherwise we could just have used vanilla OAuth 2.0), I find it strange =
to needlessly add to the overhead by making the encoding of a frequently =
used claim longer than necessary.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>I am willing to listen to =
the arguments that have lead the expert reviewer to denying a value in =
the one-byte range, and discuss the reasoning further on =
list.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>Ludwig<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt; On Tue Feb 18 =
22:42:22 2020, <a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Michael.Jones@microsoft.c=
om</span></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; I'm mostly OK =
with these registrations, however, DO NOT assign the<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; value 9 to =
&quot;scope&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; Rather, please put it in the two-byte =
range<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; - for instance, =
with the value 41.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; -- =
Mike<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
-----Original Message----- From: Cwt-reg-review <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>cwt-reg-review-bounces@ie=
tf.org</span></a>&gt; On Behalf Of Sabrina Tanamal via RT =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, =
February 18, 2020 1:06 PM Cc:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</=
span></a> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; #1158953] =
Requested review for IANA registration in <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token =
Claims)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; Resending =
this request for draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; Sabrina =
Tanamal Senior IANA Services Specialist<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat =
Dec 21 11:37:11 2019, <a href=3D"mailto:ludwig_seitz@gmx.de" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>ludwig_seitz@gmx.de</span=
></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello =
CWT registry reviewers,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the =
IESG-designated experts for the CWT claims registry have asked =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; me to =
send a review request to you about the claims registered =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
here:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Ft" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://nam06.safelinks.p=
rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
o<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext><a =
href=3D"http://ols.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">ols.ietf.org</a>%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-29=
%23section-<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
8.13&amp;a<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
mp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%<a href=3D"http://40microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank">40microsoft.com</a>%7Ce23f64ac1ad74269c<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
3<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf8=
6f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63717656<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
7656665548&amp;amp;sdata=3Dr01W5Bx0gJh9ZPH8eNS%2BY765CnGq11DkknsHYQ751Dk%=
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
3<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>D&amp;amp;reserved=3D0<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank =
you in advance for you review comments.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Ludwig<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________ Cwt-reg-review =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; mailing list <a =
href=3D"mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</=
span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Fwww" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://nam06.safelinks.p=
rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; .<a =
href=3D"http://ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf.org</a>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcwt-<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>reg-<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
review&amp;amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CMichael.Jones%<a =
href=3D"http://40microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank">40microsoft.com</a>%7Ce23f64ac1ad<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
74269c3c408d7b4b65d45%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
7176567656675543&amp;amp;sdata=3DXxBhQmqxGkCRiBxh0PdhX2IJD8TnbwWl%2Feo8VU=
sH<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&gt; =
Osg%3D&amp;amp;reserved=3D0<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&gt;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>__________________________=
_____________________<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext>Cwt-reg-review mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext><a =
href=3D"mailto:Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Cwt-reg-review@ietf.org</=
span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dgmail-m7485588286855751656msoplaintext><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cwt-reg-review" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/cwt-reg-review</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>IMPORTANT =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, 'Hannes Tschofenig' <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, 'Seitz Ludwig' <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>, 'Chuck Mortimore' <charliemortimore@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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Subject: Re: [Ace] [Cwt-reg-review] [IANA #1158953] Requested review for IANA registration in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz (cwt - CBOR Web Token Claims)
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From nobody Mon Mar 23 20:05:43 2020
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From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool <session-request@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Ace] ace - New Interim Meeting Request
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A new interim meeting request has just been submitted by Jim Schaad.

This request requires approval by the Area Director of the Security Area

The meeting can be approved here: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim/request/interim-2020-ace-05



---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Jim Schaad

Meeting Type: Virtual Meeting

Session 1:

Date: 2020-04-15
Start Time: 07:00 America/Los_Angeles
Duration: 02:00
Remote Participation Information: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mb5f50b1e50b7e9ad04f89d67ea2e4caf
Agenda Note: 

---------------------------------------------------------



From nobody Wed Mar 25 06:22:13 2020
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Subject: [Ace] Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments (ace) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-15
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The Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments (ace) Working Group will hold
a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-15 from 07:00 to 09:00 America/Los_Angeles (14:00 to 16:00 UTC).

Agenda:
Administrivia
ACE Documents stuck with the AD
  - DTLS document
MQTT document
Group Keying Documents
- Framework
- OSCORE
- PubSub (if a new one is published)
Wrap up and closing
- Virutual Interop events for anything?

Information about remote participation:
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mb5f50b1e50b7e9ad04f89d67ea2e4caf

