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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:13:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
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Hi Ben,

I had a look at the well-known URI list at IANA and it seems that for vanil=
la OAuth 2.0 endpoints (authorization, token, introspect) there are no well=
-known URI:s either. What exists is an URI used by the authorization server=
 to self-describe (including attributes giving the values of the endpoint's=
 URIs).

So my interpretation would be that instead of defining a well-known URI for=
 authz-info, we need to define an attribute that a Resource Server can incl=
ude in its well-known information to identify the authz-info endpoint URI i=
t is exposing.=20

@Carsten (or other core experts): Would it make sense to define a new attri=
bute in the /.well-known/core format for Resource Servers using coap?

/Ludwig


-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
Sent: den 31 maj 2020 00:36
To: ace@ietf.org
Subject: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint

Hi all,

I was prompted by the discussion at the interim to look more closely at wha=
t we say about the "default name" for endpoint URIs, e.g., the authz-info e=
ndpoint.  The last paragraph of
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33#section-5.8.1
says:

   The default name of this endpoint in an url-path is '/authz-info',
   however implementations are not required to use this name and can
   define their own instead.

I've gotten advice from some URI experts that this doesn't give an easy/dis=
coverable path (pun intended) to using a non-default value, which is proble=
matic from the perspective of BCP 190 (and we should expect to get discusse=
d at IESG evaluation time).  This sort of issue goes away if we allocate a =
well-known URI for authz-info from https://www.iana.org/assignments/well-kn=
own-uris/well-known-uris.xhtml and have that be the default.  In particular=
, that wouldn't actually stop any deployments from using /authz-info, but i=
t does mean they'd have to knowingly "opt in" to doing so.

What do people think?

Thanks,

Ben

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Mon Jun  1 07:51:42 2020
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Subject: Re: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
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On 2020-06-01, at 11:13, Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Ben,
>=20
> I had a look at the well-known URI list at IANA and it seems that for =
vanilla OAuth 2.0 endpoints (authorization, token, introspect) there are =
no well-known URI:s either. What exists is an URI used by the =
authorization server to self-describe (including attributes giving the =
values of the endpoint's URIs).
>=20
> So my interpretation would be that instead of defining a well-known =
URI for authz-info, we need to define an attribute that a Resource =
Server can include in its well-known information to identify the =
authz-info endpoint URI it is exposing.=20
>=20
> @Carsten (or other core experts): Would it make sense to define a new =
attribute in the /.well-known/core format for Resource Servers using =
coap?

It would probably not be an attribute but a link relation and/or a =
resource type.

I would expect the authz-info resource would usually be the same for an =
entire server?
This might argue for the =E2=80=9Chosts=E2=80=9D link relationship and =
an rt=3D registration.

Registry:
Resource Type (rt=3D) Link Target Attribute Values
in
Constrained RESTful Environments (CoRE) Parameters

If the authz-info is often different for each resource, a link from the =
resource to the authz-info with an appropriate link relation would work =
best.

Registry:
Link Relations

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


>=20
> /Ludwig
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> Sent: den 31 maj 2020 00:36
> To: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I was prompted by the discussion at the interim to look more closely =
at what we say about the "default name" for endpoint URIs, e.g., the =
authz-info endpoint.  The last paragraph of
> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33#section-5.8.1
> says:
>=20
>   The default name of this endpoint in an url-path is '/authz-info',
>   however implementations are not required to use this name and can
>   define their own instead.
>=20
> I've gotten advice from some URI experts that this doesn't give an =
easy/discoverable path (pun intended) to using a non-default value, =
which is problematic from the perspective of BCP 190 (and we should =
expect to get discussed at IESG evaluation time).  This sort of issue =
goes away if we allocate a well-known URI for authz-info from =
https://www.iana.org/assignments/well-known-uris/well-known-uris.xhtml =
and have that be the default.  In particular, that wouldn't actually =
stop any deployments from using /authz-info, but it does mean they'd =
have to knowingly "opt in" to doing so.
>=20
> What do people think?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Ben
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Mon Jun  1 15:39:15 2020
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Carsten Bormann' <cabo@tzi.org>, 'Seitz Ludwig' <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
CC: 'Benjamin Kaduk' <kaduk@mit.edu>, <ace@ietf.org>
References: <20200530223602.GF58497@kduck.mit.edu> <61220bcd9e72401a9d04c114a3fbf2cf@combitech.se> <5A5225C1-412A-4C95-8980-A73125D9025B@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
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We should make sure to keep draft-tiloca-core-oscore-directory in mind =
for this.  It has a relation link defined for the Authorization server.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 7:52 AM
To: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
Cc: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint

On 2020-06-01, at 11:13, Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Ben,
>=20
> I had a look at the well-known URI list at IANA and it seems that for =
vanilla OAuth 2.0 endpoints (authorization, token, introspect) there are =
no well-known URI:s either. What exists is an URI used by the =
authorization server to self-describe (including attributes giving the =
values of the endpoint's URIs).
>=20
> So my interpretation would be that instead of defining a well-known =
URI for authz-info, we need to define an attribute that a Resource =
Server can include in its well-known information to identify the =
authz-info endpoint URI it is exposing.=20
>=20
> @Carsten (or other core experts): Would it make sense to define a new =
attribute in the /.well-known/core format for Resource Servers using =
coap?

It would probably not be an attribute but a link relation and/or a =
resource type.

I would expect the authz-info resource would usually be the same for an =
entire server?
This might argue for the =E2=80=9Chosts=E2=80=9D link relationship and =
an rt=3D registration.

Registry:
Resource Type (rt=3D) Link Target Attribute Values in Constrained =
RESTful Environments (CoRE) Parameters

If the authz-info is often different for each resource, a link from the =
resource to the authz-info with an appropriate link relation would work =
best.

Registry:
Link Relations

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


>=20
> /Ludwig
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> Sent: den 31 maj 2020 00:36
> To: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I was prompted by the discussion at the interim to look more closely=20
> at what we say about the "default name" for endpoint URIs, e.g., the=20
> authz-info endpoint.  The last paragraph of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33#section-5.8.
> 1
> says:
>=20
>   The default name of this endpoint in an url-path is '/authz-info',
>   however implementations are not required to use this name and can
>   define their own instead.
>=20
> I've gotten advice from some URI experts that this doesn't give an =
easy/discoverable path (pun intended) to using a non-default value, =
which is problematic from the perspective of BCP 190 (and we should =
expect to get discussed at IESG evaluation time).  This sort of issue =
goes away if we allocate a well-known URI for authz-info from =
https://www.iana.org/assignments/well-known-uris/well-known-uris.xhtml =
and have that be the default.  In particular, that wouldn't actually =
stop any deployments from using /authz-info, but it does mean they'd =
have to knowingly "opt in" to doing so.
>=20
> What do people think?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Ben
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


From nobody Mon Jun  1 16:59:01 2020
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Subject: Re: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
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Hi Ludwig,

I'm confident that a well-known URI (or link relation) for discovery of RS
configuration/parameters would address the BCP 190 concerns.  What we need
is an obvious path to not stomp on the server owner's namespace, and
whether we do that by letting the server tell us what what path to use or
by constraining ourself to a well-specified cordoned-off corner reserved
for our use is up to us.

Thanks for all the ideas and follow-up discussion!

-Ben

On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 09:13:13AM +0000, Seitz Ludwig wrote:
> Hi Ben,
> 
> I had a look at the well-known URI list at IANA and it seems that for vanilla OAuth 2.0 endpoints (authorization, token, introspect) there are no well-known URI:s either. What exists is an URI used by the authorization server to self-describe (including attributes giving the values of the endpoint's URIs).
> 
> So my interpretation would be that instead of defining a well-known URI for authz-info, we need to define an attribute that a Resource Server can include in its well-known information to identify the authz-info endpoint URI it is exposing. 
> 
> @Carsten (or other core experts): Would it make sense to define a new attribute in the /.well-known/core format for Resource Servers using coap?
> 
> /Ludwig
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> Sent: den 31 maj 2020 00:36
> To: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I was prompted by the discussion at the interim to look more closely at what we say about the "default name" for endpoint URIs, e.g., the authz-info endpoint.  The last paragraph of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33#section-5.8.1
> says:
> 
>    The default name of this endpoint in an url-path is '/authz-info',
>    however implementations are not required to use this name and can
>    define their own instead.
> 
> I've gotten advice from some URI experts that this doesn't give an easy/discoverable path (pun intended) to using a non-default value, which is problematic from the perspective of BCP 190 (and we should expect to get discussed at IESG evaluation time).  This sort of issue goes away if we allocate a well-known URI for authz-info from https://www.iana.org/assignments/well-known-uris/well-known-uris.xhtml and have that be the default.  In particular, that wouldn't actually stop any deployments from using /authz-info, but it does mean they'd have to knowingly "opt in" to doing so.
> 
> What do people think?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ben
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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To: ace@ietf.org
References: <20200530223602.GF58497@kduck.mit.edu> <61220bcd9e72401a9d04c114a3fbf2cf@combitech.se> <20200601235843.GH58497@kduck.mit.edu>
From: Tomas Gustavsson <tomas.gustavsson@primekey.com>
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 07:19:22 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
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Hi,

In most cases where I've been involved with implementing a single RFC
defined .well-known URL for actually servicing all end points, it ends
up being one .well-known for default configuration, and multiple other
(not .well-known) URLs in order to handle other configurations in
multi-tennant scenarios.
I hope whatever .well-known scheme is selected will handle
multi-tennancy, where thare can be differently configured service end
points servicing from the same host/ip.
I.e. can one host server multiple authz-info? (does that make sense?)

Regards,
Tomas

On 2020-06-02 01:58, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> Hi Ludwig,
> 
> I'm confident that a well-known URI (or link relation) for discovery of RS
> configuration/parameters would address the BCP 190 concerns.  What we need
> is an obvious path to not stomp on the server owner's namespace, and
> whether we do that by letting the server tell us what what path to use or
> by constraining ourself to a well-specified cordoned-off corner reserved
> for our use is up to us.
> 
> Thanks for all the ideas and follow-up discussion!
> 
> -Ben
> 
> On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 09:13:13AM +0000, Seitz Ludwig wrote:
>> Hi Ben,
>>
>> I had a look at the well-known URI list at IANA and it seems that for vanilla OAuth 2.0 endpoints (authorization, token, introspect) there are no well-known URI:s either. What exists is an URI used by the authorization server to self-describe (including attributes giving the values of the endpoint's URIs).
>>
>> So my interpretation would be that instead of defining a well-known URI for authz-info, we need to define an attribute that a Resource Server can include in its well-known information to identify the authz-info endpoint URI it is exposing. 
>>
>> @Carsten (or other core experts): Would it make sense to define a new attribute in the /.well-known/core format for Resource Servers using coap?
>>
>> /Ludwig
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
>> Sent: den 31 maj 2020 00:36
>> To: ace@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was prompted by the discussion at the interim to look more closely at what we say about the "default name" for endpoint URIs, e.g., the authz-info endpoint.  The last paragraph of
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33#section-5.8.1
>> says:
>>
>>    The default name of this endpoint in an url-path is '/authz-info',
>>    however implementations are not required to use this name and can
>>    define their own instead.
>>
>> I've gotten advice from some URI experts that this doesn't give an easy/discoverable path (pun intended) to using a non-default value, which is problematic from the perspective of BCP 190 (and we should expect to get discussed at IESG evaluation time).  This sort of issue goes away if we allocate a well-known URI for authz-info from https://www.iana.org/assignments/well-known-uris/well-known-uris.xhtml and have that be the default.  In particular, that wouldn't actually stop any deployments from using /authz-info, but it does mean they'd have to knowingly "opt in" to doing so.
>>
>> What do people think?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> 


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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: Tomas Gustavsson <tomas.gustavsson@primekey.com>, "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 10:08:58 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/zpujYixtIUD1jP7kDlsoa9k7D0E>
Subject: Re: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
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Hi Tomas,

Thank you for your comment.=20
Some observations and questions:=20
I have a hard time seeing a reasonable use case where a resource server (RS=
) would need several authz-info endpoints, one could however imagine a use =
case with a powerful server hosting several virtual resource servers (RS) u=
nder the same IP address and thus several different authz-info endpoints (o=
ne for each RS), but this does not sound like the typical Constrained Envir=
onment scenario to me.=20
In order to better understand what this is about: If you have such a multi-=
tenant situation with a  .well-known for a default configuration, how would=
 clients discover the non-default configurations?=20
Also if a RS were to use the default URI (which is <hostname>/authz-info), =
why would it need to announce this in a .well-known? I would assume that th=
is is only necessary if a non-default URI is used.

@ACE: This is far away from my area of expertise and at this point I cannot=
 devote the necessary time to "read up" on this. Can someone help us find a=
 good solution that that we can move draft-ietf-oauth-authz forward?

/Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tomas Gustavsson
Sent: den 2 juni 2020 07:19
To: ace@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint

Hi,

In most cases where I've been involved with implementing a single RFC defin=
ed .well-known URL for actually servicing all end points, it ends up being =
one .well-known for default configuration, and multiple other (not .well-kn=
own) URLs in order to handle other configurations in multi-tennant scenario=
s.
I hope whatever .well-known scheme is selected will handle multi-tennancy, =
where thare can be differently configured service end points servicing from=
 the same host/ip.
I.e. can one host server multiple authz-info? (does that make sense?)

Regards,
Tomas

On 2020-06-02 01:58, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> Hi Ludwig,
>=20
> I'm confident that a well-known URI (or link relation) for discovery=20
> of RS configuration/parameters would address the BCP 190 concerns. =20
> What we need is an obvious path to not stomp on the server owner's=20
> namespace, and whether we do that by letting the server tell us what=20
> what path to use or by constraining ourself to a well-specified=20
> cordoned-off corner reserved for our use is up to us.
>=20
> Thanks for all the ideas and follow-up discussion!
>=20
> -Ben
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 09:13:13AM +0000, Seitz Ludwig wrote:
>> Hi Ben,
>>
>> I had a look at the well-known URI list at IANA and it seems that for va=
nilla OAuth 2.0 endpoints (authorization, token, introspect) there are no w=
ell-known URI:s either. What exists is an URI used by the authorization ser=
ver to self-describe (including attributes giving the values of the endpoin=
t's URIs).
>>
>> So my interpretation would be that instead of defining a well-known URI =
for authz-info, we need to define an attribute that a Resource Server can i=
nclude in its well-known information to identify the authz-info endpoint UR=
I it is exposing.=20
>>
>> @Carsten (or other core experts): Would it make sense to define a new at=
tribute in the /.well-known/core format for Resource Servers using coap?
>>
>> /Ludwig
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
>> Sent: den 31 maj 2020 00:36
>> To: ace@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Ace] "default value" for authz-info endpoint
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was prompted by the discussion at the interim to look more closely=20
>> at what we say about the "default name" for endpoint URIs, e.g., the=20
>> authz-info endpoint.  The last paragraph of
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-33#section-5.8
>> .1
>> says:
>>
>>    The default name of this endpoint in an url-path is '/authz-info',
>>    however implementations are not required to use this name and can
>>    define their own instead.
>>
>> I've gotten advice from some URI experts that this doesn't give an easy/=
discoverable path (pun intended) to using a non-default value, which is pro=
blematic from the perspective of BCP 190 (and we should expect to get discu=
ssed at IESG evaluation time).  This sort of issue goes away if we allocate=
 a well-known URI for authz-info from https://www.iana.org/assignments/well=
-known-uris/well-known-uris.xhtml and have that be the default.  In particu=
lar, that wouldn't actually stop any deployments from using /authz-info, bu=
t it does mean they'd have to knowingly "opt in" to doing so.
>>
>> What do people think?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ace mailing list
>> Ace@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20

_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin@ietf.org>
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* Does 'joining_path' contain the path or the full URI to the joining
resource.  Is it possible for the Group Manager Administration to be on a
different server (or via a different address) from the Group Manager itself?
Path tends to me to say only path.

* Section 2.3.2.1 - I think it makes more sense to make all of the defaults
to the groupcomm draft from ACE for OSCORE.  Since this is for managing
those types of groups, it should be that document which gets to set the
defaults.  If it wants to refer back to the same documents that is fine, but
it should be that the defaults can change based on changing that document.

* Section 2.3.2.2 - I think there may be a difference between an empty
string and an absent string for group_title.  Just verifying that what you
want is an empty string.

* Section 2.4.1 - I am not sure why this is a subsection of 2.4.

* Section 2.5.3 - What does "or is not fine to consider for tis OSCORE
group" in bullet #4 list #2?  Is this implying some type of judgement on the
part of the AS based on parameters in the group definition or the expected
usage of the group?

* Section 2.5.3 - I think it might make sense to return at least some of the
information in the return value of the POST such as the "joining_path" and
the "as_uri" because just the management path is not sufficient to be able
to start populating the RD.

* Section 2.5.3 - An interesting question - Should it be allowable for the
name to be different between the management and the group key nodes?  I
would like to see some type of discussion at least on the mailing list.
Doing the search on the join path would result in the same answer and little
additional penalty since I doubt that GM Admin clients are going to be
constrained.

* Section 2.5.5 -  The second paragraph makes zero sense to me.  The third
paragraph should just be talking about the update message and not mixing the
create and update messages together.

* Section 2.5.5.2 - I have read this section twice and I still do not think
I understand what is going on here.  How much of this is needed and how much
is extraneous?  Is there some simplification that can be used to make this
easier?

Jim

s/fowllowing/following/



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Subject: [Ace] FW: Review draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-05
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Let's see if I can get the mailing list right this time

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> 
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:02 PM
To: 'draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org'
<draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org>
Cc: 'cose@ietf.org' <cose@ietf.org>
Subject: Review draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-05

* Style Issue. "Abbreviations should be expanded in document title and upon
first use in the document.  Full expansion of the text should be followed by
the abbreviation in parentheses."  Some items such as TLS are considered to
be known by everybody and thus do not need to be expanded.
https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt contains both
"known" and "unknown" abbreviations.  (Yes this means you are going to have
a really long title.)  (I might argue that  OASIS should be listed as well
known.)

* Section 1 - para 1 - Sentence two has a plurality mismatch between client
and server.  I think in this case server (and broker) should be pluralized.

* Section 1.3 - Broker - s/publishes/publish/  The set of pluralized items
seems to be too large by one.

* Section 1.3 - I think we ought to define Session given that we no longer
require that Clean Session be used.

* Section 1.3 - I do not believe that CONNACK is always the first packet
from the broker to a client.  An AUTH message may be the first one.

* Section 2.1 - para 3 s/the public key used by the RS/the public key to be
used by the RS/

* Section 2.1 - I think (but am not sure) that we may need to do some
registrations around the use of thumbprints in a confirmation claim.  If I
forget, please remind me to track this down.

* Section 2.2.2 - para #1 - s/using client authentication/using server
authentication/  If we are doing MQTT as the default then the server not the
client is authenticated here.  You may not want to have lost the potentially
here.

* Section 2.2.3 - I think that the client state MUST include the token and
either the same token is supplied or a token with the same key is supplied
in order to match with an existing state.

* Section 6.2 - I think it makes sense to put in a note that between the
fact that the server will disconnect on almost any error and is not required
to keep session state between connections, clients need to make a greater
effort to ensure that tokens remain valid and they do not attempt to publish
to topics that they do not have permissions for.

* Section 8 - The storage of tokens long term can be restricted to only
current valid ones if an immediate validation of the token is done.  This
means that the RS spends time doing the validation, but does not need to
consume memory.

This is looking really good.  I think we have only two technical issues open
at this point.  The question of registrations for hash identifications in
confirmation claims and if changes to the default scope structure are to be
done.

Jim



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From nobody Thu Jun 18 01:47:20 2020
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Subject: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Key Provisioning for Group Communication using ACE
        Authors         : Francesca Palombini
                          Marco Tiloca
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-07.txt
	Pages           : 57
	Date            : 2020-06-18

Abstract:
   This document defines message formats and procedures for requesting
   and distributing group keying material using the ACE framework, to
   protect communications between group members.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-07
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From nobody Thu Jun 18 02:05:41 2020
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Key Management for OSCORE Groups in ACE
        Authors         : Marco Tiloca
                          Jiye Park
                          Francesca Palombini
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore-07.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2020-06-18

Abstract:
   This specification defines an application profile of the ACE
   framework for Authentication and Authorization, to request and
   provision keying material in group communication scenarios that are
   based on CoAP and secured with Group Object Security for Constrained
   RESTful Environments (OSCORE).  This application profile delegates
   the authentication and authorization of Clients that join an OSCORE
   group through a Resource Server acting as Group Manager for that
   group.  This application profile leverages protocol-specific
   transport profiles of ACE to achieve communication security, server
   authentication and proof-of-possession for a key owned by the Client
   and bound to an OAuth 2.0 access token.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-key-groupcomm-oscore/

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From nobody Thu Jun 18 05:26:15 2020
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) Profile for Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE)
        Authors         : Stefanie Gerdes
                          Olaf Bergmann
                          Carsten Bormann
                          Göran Selander
                          Ludwig Seitz
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-11.txt
	Pages           : 26
	Date            : 2020-06-18

Abstract:
   This specification defines a profile of the ACE framework that allows
   constrained servers to delegate client authentication and
   authorization.  The protocol relies on DTLS version 1.2 for
   communication security between entities in a constrained network
   using either raw public keys or pre-shared keys.  A resource-
   constrained server can use this protocol to delegate management of
   authorization information to a trusted host with less severe
   limitations regarding processing power and memory.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize.all@ietf.org,  ace@ietf.org
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:38:32 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ace] AD review of draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-09
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Hi Benjamin,

Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:

> Thanks!  I think we will probably need an -11 fairly soon, though, given
> the remaining comments I have.

We have just submitted -11 that addresses your comments. See below for
detailed responses. I have trimmed-down the email thread context a bit
to improved readability and focus on the recent comments.

> A couple general remarks looking at the -09-to-10 diff (not all new in
> the -10, so I guess I missed it the first time around):
>
> In Section 3.2.1, I suggest applying:
>
> OLD:
>   [...] If CBOR web tokens [RFC8392] are used as recommended in
>   [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz] [...]
>
> NEW:
>   [...] If CBOR web tokens [RFC8392] are used (as recommended in
>   [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz]) [...]
>
> Making this a parenthetical statement makes it clear that the
> conditional for "keys MUST be encoded" is "CWT are used" and separate
> from the recommendation to do so.

Done

> Also in 3.2.1, we now have these two statements in fairly close
> proximity:
>
>    [RFC8747].  The resource server MUST use its own raw public key in
>    the DTLS handshake with the client.  If the resource server has
>    several raw public keys, it must already know which key it is
>    supposed to use with this client.  How this is achieved is not part
>    of this profile.
>
>    The resource server MUST use the keying material that the
>    authorizations server has specified in the "cnf" parameter in the
>    access token for the DTLS handshake with the client.  Thus, the
>
> which seems a bit redundant and potentially in conflict.  Can we
> consolidate this requirement a bit?

Yes, the wording is a bit confusing. The following proposal states
the intention more clearly, I think:

NEW:=20

    The raw public key used in the DTLS handshake with the client MUST
    belong to the resource server. If the resource server has several
    raw public keys, it needs to determine which key to use. The
    authorization server can help with this decision by including a
    `cnf` parameter in the access token that is associated with this
    communication.  In this case, the resource server MUST use the
    information from the `cnf` field to select the proper keying
    material.

> In Section 3.3:
>
>    To convey the same secret to the resource server, the authorization
>    server either includes it directly in the access token by means of
>    the "cnf" claim or it provides sufficient information to enable the
>    resource server to derive the key from the access token using key
>    derivation.
>
> This text could be read as prohibiting using token introspection to
> obtain the C/RS shared key (if I remember correctly about "claim" being
> a CWT thing and not a more generic term for a parameter associated with
> a token).  I don't think that's the intent, so perhaps a wording tweak
> is in order.

This now has been changed to:

NEW:

    To convey the same secret to the resource server, the
    authorization server can include it directly in the access token
    by means of the `cnf` claim or provide sufficient information to
    enable the resource server to derive the shared secret from the
    access token. As an alternative, the resource server MAY use token
    introspection to retrieve the keying material for this access
    token directly from the authorization server.

> In Section 3.3.1:
>
>    If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
>    contains a "psk_identity" with a length greater than zero, it MUST
>    process the contents of the "psk_identity" field as access token that
>    is stored with the authorization information endpoint, before
>    continuing the DTLS handshake.  If the contents of the "psk_identity"
>    do not yield a valid access token for the requesting client, the
>    resource server aborts the DTLS handshake with an "illegal_parameter"
>    alert.
>
> The way this was reworded seems to imply that any "psk_identity" with
> positive length is a full access token (as would have been uploaded to
> the authz-info endpoint), which prevents the case previously described
> where the identity is just a COSE_Key with the 'kid' from "rs_cnf".  So
> I think we still need some kind of description of two potential
> interpretations of the "psk_identity".

Yes, this is misleading. We have changed it as follows to indicate the
two (non-exclusive) processing steps:

OLD:
   If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
   contains a `psk_identity` with a length greater than zero, it MUST
   process the contents of the `psk_identity` field as access token
   that is stored with the authorization information endpoint, before
   continuing the DTLS handshake. If the contents of the
   `psk_identity` do not yield a valid access token for the requesting
   client, the resource server aborts the DTLS handshake with an
   `illegal_parameter` alert.

NEW:

   If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
   contains a `psk_identity` with a length greater than zero, it MUST
   parse the contents of the `psk_identity` field as CBOR data
   structure and process the contents as following:

      * If the data contains a `cnf` field with a `COSE_Key` structure
        with a `kid`, the resource server continues the DTLS handshake
        with the stored key associated with this kid.

      * If the data comprises additional CWT information, this
        information must be stored as access token for this DTLS
        association before continuing with the DTLS handshake.

   If the contents of the `psk_identity` do not yield sufficient
   information to select a valid access token for the requesting
   client, the resource server aborts the DTLS handshake with an
   `illegal_parameter` alert.

> In section 3.4, we updated the text about "a common understanding"
> between RS and AS about how access tokens are ordered, and reworded the
> text about checking authorization on every request.  I think we could
> say a little bit more about how there is not a strict guarantee of
> processing order for requests and authorization updates, so requests
> that occur around the time of an authorization update might be processed
> using either the old or new authorization rules.  Even just referencing
> Section 7.2 would be enough.

This now has been clarified as follows, introducing another forward
reference:

OLD:
    The client MUST ascertain that its keying material is still valid
    before sending a request or processing a response.  If the client
    gets an error response

NEW:

    The client MUST ascertain that its keying material is still valid
    before sending a request or processing a response. If the client
    recently has updated the access token (see Section 4), it must be
    prepared that its request is still handled according to the
    previous authorization rules as there is no strict ordering
    between access token uploads and resource access messages. See
    also Section 7.2 for a discussion of access token
    processing.

> (more inline)
>
>> > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 06:20:38PM +0200, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
>> >> Ben,
>> >>=20
>> >> Thanks again for the thorough review of the ACE DTLS profile and my
>> >> sincere apologies for the long time it took to process. Please find o=
ur
>> >> comments inline. As this comprises a lot of changes, the proposed text
>> >> already has been included in the Editor's copy [1].  Our proposals for
>> >> new text are in the section-by-section comments.
>> >>=20
>> >> [1] https://ace-wg.github.io/ace-dtls-profile/
>> >>=20
>> >> Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:
>> >>=20
>> >> > Hi all,
>> >> >
>> >> > Some high-level remarks before delving into the section-by-section
>> >> > comments:
>> >> >
>> >> > This document is pretty clearly DTLS 1.2-specific -- it talks about
>> >> > particular protocol messages, message fields, and cipher suites that
>> >> > simply do not apply to DTLS 1.3.  In order to use this profile with=
 DTLS
>> >> > 1.3, we'd need to specify the analogous behavior/requirements to th=
ese
>> >> > (including standalone signature schemes and key-exchange groups, wh=
ich
>> >> > are now both separately negotiated from the cipher suite).
>> >> > Given that DTLS 1.3 is past WGLC and only a few documents behind th=
is
>> >> > one in my review queue, it seems fairly prudent to spend some time =
and
>> >> > cover how DTLS 1.3 would work here, since otherwise this document w=
ill
>> >> > become stale shortly after (or even before!) its publication as an =
RFC.
>
> Is anyone working on a DTLS 1.3 version?

Steffi and I have been in the process of starting to take a closer look :-)


>> > I think we need to give some guidance about what the semantics are if/=
when
>> > it happens.  My inclination would be to say that DTLS resumption can be
>> > used to amortize the cost of a handshake, but DTLS 1.2 resumption does=
 not
>> > provide forward secrecy and also does not provide an opportunity for t=
he
>> > client to prove possession of the PoP key, so servers will want to
>> > periodically force a full handshake according to their authentication
>> > requirements.  I'd also be inclined to forbid renegotiation entirely.
>>=20
>> True, especially because RFC 7925 requires resumption to be
>> implemented. The security considerations now advise against session
>> resumptions and renegotiation as you have suggested. The Security
>> Considerations section now has been structured in sub-sections for
>> clarity.
>
> The discussion in the -10 is reasonable (and the stated motivation of
> having a fresh proof of possession is fairly compelling), though to be
> clear, my initial "inclination" above was just to forbid renegotiation
> but allow resumption.

Sorry, I had misinterpreted that. Actually, I am not entirely
convinced by the "fresh PoP" argument anymore. When the access token
made its way to the server through the client, there is no significant
difference between keeping the DTLS session open and session
resumption. Additional security against breaching the encryption of
the (encrypted part of the) access token would be provided only by token
introspection. But in that case, session resumption again would not
harm security as we do not need to store precious information in the
session ticket.

Are you in favor of allowing session resumption?

>> >> NEW:
>> >>=20
>> >>     The authorization server must ascertain that the keying material
>> >>     for the client that it provides to the resource server actually is
>> >>     associated with this client.  Malicious clients may hand over
>> >>     access tokens containing their own access permissions to other
>> >>     entities. This problem cannot be completely
>> >>     eliminated. Nevertheless, in RPK mode it should not be possible
>> >>     for clients to request access tokens for arbitrary public keys,
>> >>     since that would allow the client to relay tokens without the need
>> >>     to share its own credentials with others. The authorization server
>> >
>> > I think this sentence could probably be wordsmithed some more, though I
>> > don't have a concrete proposal at the moment.  It does seem like we mi=
ght
>> > want to discuss this scenario more in terms of "identity misbinding" t=
han
>> > "relay tokens", though.  (We had a SAAG talk at IETF 104 about misbind=
ing
>> > attacks on device pairing, which is not quite the same, but shares som=
e of
>> > the concepts.)
>>=20
>> Okay. This is the only comment I did not yet address in the text. We
>> might want to keep this in mind for -11.
>
> Looking at it again, perhaps:
>
> % eliminated. Nevertheless, in RPK mode it should not be possible
> % for clients to request access tokens for arbitrary public keys: if the
> % client can cause the AS to issue a token for a public key without
> % proving possession of the corresponding private key, this allows for
> % identity misbinding attacks where the issued token is usable by an
> % entity other than the intended one.  [...]

Very good, thank you.

>> >> OLD:
>> >>=20
>> >>    The response also contains an access token and an "rs_cnf"
>> >>    parameter containing information about the public key that is used
>> >>    by the resource server.  AS MUST ascertain that the RPK specified
>> >>    in "rs_cnf" belongs to the resource server that C wants to
>> >>    communicate with.
>> >>=20
>> >> NEW:
>> >>=20
>> >>    The response also contains an access token with information about
>> >>    the public key that is used by the resource server. The
>> >
>> > This sounds like "the information[...]" is part of the access token; m=
aybe
>> > "along with"?
>>=20
>> What is meant here is that the information is contained in the access
>> token. The misleading part is that the AT contains information about the
>> client's RPK that the resource server uses to recognize the client in
>> the subsequent communication.
>>=20
>> I have changed this sentence to:
>>=20
>> NEW:
>>=20
>>   The response also contains an access token with information for the
>>   resource server about the client's public key.
>
> That should help a lot; thanks!
>
>> >> >    The fields in the context information "COSE_KDF_Context"
>> >> >    (Section 11.2 of [RFC8152]) have the following values:
>> >> >
>> >> >    o  AlgorithmID =3D "ACE-CoAP-DTLS-key-derivation"
>> >> >
>> >> > RFC 8152 says that these AlgorithmID values come from the COSE
>> >> > Algorithms registry, which this does not (unless we register it the=
re,
>> >> > which we don't currently).  Also, since the output is used directly=
 for
>> >> > DTLS PSK, I don't think the "key-derivation" portion is needed.
>> >> >
>> >> >    o  PartyUInfo =3D PartyVInfo =3D ( null, null, null )
>> >> >
>> >> > (8152 seems to prefer "nil" over "null".)
>> >> >
>> >> >    o  keyDataLength needs to be defined by the application
>> >> >
>> >> >    o  protected MUST be a zero length bstr
>> >> >
>> >> >    o  other is a zero length bstr
>> >> >
>> >> > (These three are all members of the "SuppPubInfo" field, which is n=
ot
>> >> > very clear from how we include them in the same list as top-level
>> >> > fields.)
>> >>=20
>> >> The example now has updated and rephrased according to HKDF usage.
>> >
>> > The formatting/discussion looks good, but I'll need to cross-check the=
 data
>> > structures once the new revision is uploaded.
>
> I do like the presentation with HKDF and the structured input to it.
>
> However, I think we may have over-corrected w.r.t. key-id uniqueness:
>
>    In order to generate a new symmetric key to be used by client and
>    resource server, the authorization server generates a new key
>    identifier which MUST be unique among all key identifiers used by the
>    authorization server.  The authorization server then uses the key
>
> I think this requirement for uniqueness global to the AS may be too
> strong; couldn't key identifiers be reused for different RSes?
> Having the kid be part of the input to HKDF keyed by a unique AS/RS
> shared key also helps a great deal to avoid accidental key collisions.

True, uniqueness for each individual RS would be sufficient:

OLD:
   MUST be unique among all key identifiers used by the authorization
   server.

NEW:
   MUST be unique among all key identifiers used by the authorization
   server for this resource server.

>    To ensure uniqueness of the derived shared secret, the authorization
>    server SHOULD generate a sufficiently random kid value and include
>    the claims "iat" and either "exp" or "exi" in the access token.
>
> I don't think I understand the motivation for all these statements (and
> in fact that they may not be entirely correct).  It is permitted to use
> the 'info' parameter to HKDF for domain separation, so even having the
> unique kid mentioned above is enough to ensure a unique derived shared
> secret (and this holds even if the kid uniqueness requirement is
> weakendt to be per-RS and not per-AS).  Including "iat", "exp", and/or
> "exi" also helps to ensure uniqueness and should be recommended, but the
> interrelationships are not stated well here.  Perhaps:
>
> % Use of a unique (per RS) "kid" and the use of a unique per-AS/RS key
> % derivation IKM as specified above will ensure that the derived key is
> % not shared across multiple clients.  However, to additionally provide
> % variation in the derived key across different tokens used by the same
> % client, it is additionally RECOMMENDED to include the "iat" claim and
> % either the "exp" or "exi" claims in the access token.

Okay, changed as suggested.

>> > Up in Section 3.3 we talk about a case where the AS and RS are assumed=
 to
>> > share a key derivation key that's used to derive symmetric keys for th=
e RS
>> > to share with the client.  The KDF input is the IKM and the 'info' (si=
nce
>> > 'salt' is empty), and the IKM is just that same "key derivation key". =
 So
>> > the only input to HKDF that changes for different clients (and the sam=
e RS)
>> > is the 'info'.  The 'info', in turn contains a string constant 'type' =
plus
>> > the 'kid' and (presumably fixed) output length.  If I'm reading this
>> > correctly, the 'kid' is the only HKDF input that varies between client=
s, so
>> > if the 'kid' was reused for different clients, the AS and RS would der=
ive
>> > the same symmetric key for those distinct client/RS pairs.  Furthermor=
e,
>> > since the AS returns the actual symmetric key to the client in the tok=
en
>> > response, that means that the symmetric key is shared by *three* parti=
es
>> > (vs. just client and RS, ignoring in the count the AS which knows
>> > everything).  I guess technically this is not the scenario forbidden b=
y the
>> > core framework (which is to have the same symmetric key used at multip=
le
>> > RSes, but it still is bad hygeine and would let one client impersonate=
 the
>> > other.
>> >
>> > In cases not using the KDF, the 'kid' is just a hint to finding the ac=
tual
>> > key, and the actual key is assumed to be constructed uniquely by the AS
>> > each time.
>>=20
>> Thank you, this is absolutely true. I have now changed the input for the
>> key derivation mechanism in the sense of what originally has been
>> specified in draft-gerdes-ace-dcaf-authorize, i.e., including the access
>> token as input to the KDF. This enables the authorization server to
>> include a certain amount of unifying attributes in the info parameter,
>> esp. with a randomly generated kid and the iat claim. I would have loved
>> to have a claim type for carrying a nonce in the access token=E2=80=A6
>
> Hmm, we say that "access_token is the decrypted access_token as
> transferred from the AS to the RS", but it's supposed to be a CBOR map;
> is this intended to just be the claims set from the CWT?  If so, we
> should say that.

I do not see the difference: The access token is comprised of a CWT
claim set which is represented on the wire as a CBOR map.=20
Unfortunately, this is not explained in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params.

To avoid confusion here, the following clarification has been added:

NEW:

    The decrypted access token usually denotes a CWT claim set
    represented as CBOR map.

>> As there is no guidance so far on how permission sets in access tokens
>> are to be combined properly it seems to be wise at least to advise
>> against.
>
> I agree that's the right advice to give; what is less clear to me is
> whether this document needs to be the place to give that advice (vs. the
> framework doing so).  But I don't have a strong stance on this at the
> moment, and am happy to move forward with the text as-is if you want.

Okay, to avoid last-minute changes to the framework document I leave
it as it is.

>> >> > I think RFCs 7250, 7251, and 8422 need to be normative.
>> >>=20
>> >> done
>>=20
>> Actually, I had to revert this for the informational RFC 7251 as the
>> idnits tool did not allow the downref from normative.
>
> idnits is just a tool to raise potential issues that a human can look
> at and think about; in this case, idnits is wrong: 7251 is listed at
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/downref/ and is perfectly fine to use
> as a normative reference.

Oh, sorry, I was not aware of that. This now has been reverted.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe
Olaf


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From: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
To: ace@ietf.org
References: <159248316955.3616.2386972527908140377@ietfa.amsl.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:41:01 +0200
In-Reply-To: <159248316955.3616.2386972527908140377@ietfa.amsl.com> (internet-drafts@ietf.org's message of "Thu, 18 Jun 2020 05:26:09 -0700")
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Subject: Re: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-11.txt
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Dear ACE mailing list,

we have submitted version 11 of the DTLS profile for ACE addressing
Ben's last review comments (see my other email to this list).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe
Olaf

internet-drafts@ietf.org writes:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Con=
strained Environments WG of the IETF.
>
>         Title           : Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) Profil=
e for Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE)
>         Authors         : Stefanie Gerdes
>                           Olaf Bergmann
>                           Carsten Bormann
>                           G=C3=B6ran Selander
>                           Ludwig Seitz
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-11.txt
> 	Pages           : 26
> 	Date            : 2020-06-18
>
> Abstract:
>    This specification defines a profile of the ACE framework that allows
>    constrained servers to delegate client authentication and
>    authorization.  The protocol relies on DTLS version 1.2 for
>    communication security between entities in a constrained network
>    using either raw public keys or pre-shared keys.  A resource-
>    constrained server can use this protocol to delegate management of
>    authorization information to a trusted host with less severe
>    limitations regarding processing power and memory.


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:52:23 -0700
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Subject: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : OSCORE profile of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments Framework
        Authors         : Francesca Palombini
                          Ludwig Seitz
                          Göran Selander
                          Martin Gunnarsson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-11.txt
	Pages           : 31
	Date            : 2020-06-18

Abstract:
   This memo specifies a profile for the Authentication and
   Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) framework.  It
   utilizes Object Security for Constrained RESTful Environments
   (OSCORE) to provide communication security, server authentication,
   and proof-of-possession for a key owned by the client and bound to an
   OAuth 2.0 access token.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>
To: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-11.txt
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Subject: Re: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-11.txt
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by9hY2UNCg0K


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Subject: Re: [Ace] FW: Review draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-05
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--0000000000008743a805a884f735
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Hello Jim,

Thank you for the comments. Responses inline.
Changes in this commit
<https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/commit/c1e18dba6ce65866ad348dd42a9a96ec348a8937>

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:49 PM Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:

> Let's see if I can get the mailing list right this time
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:02 PM
> To: 'draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org'
> <draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org>
> Cc: 'cose@ietf.org' <cose@ietf.org>
> Subject: Review draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-05
>
> * Style Issue. "Abbreviations should be expanded in document title and upon
> first use in the document.  Full expansion of the text should be followed
> by
> the abbreviation in parentheses."  Some items such as TLS are considered to
> be known by everybody and thus do not need to be expanded.
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt contains both
> "known" and "unknown" abbreviations.  (Yes this means you are going to have
> a really long title.)  (I might argue that  OASIS should be listed as well
> known.)
>

[CS] Fixed (All style issues are in
https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/53)

>
> * Section 1 - para 1 - Sentence two has a plurality mismatch between client
> and server.  I think in this case server (and broker) should be pluralized.
>
> [CS] Fixed.


> * Section 1.3 - Broker - s/publishes/publish/  The set of pluralized items
> seems to be too large by one.
>

[CS] Fixed

>
> * Section 1.3 - I think we ought to define Session given that we no longer
> require that Clean Session be used.
>

 [CS] Added
https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/55

>
> * Section 1.3 - I do not believe that CONNACK is always the first packet
> from the broker to a client.  An AUTH message may be the first one.
>
> [CS] Removed that sentence.


> * Section 2.1 - para 3 s/the public key used by the RS/the public key to be
> used by the RS/
>

[CS] Fixed.

>
> * Section 2.1 - I think (but am not sure) that we may need to do some
> registrations around the use of thumbprints in a confirmation claim.  If I
> forget, please remind me to track this down.
>

[CS] Opened Github issue so that I do not forget.
https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/54

>
> * Section 2.2.2 - para #1 - s/using client authentication/using server
> authentication/  If we are doing MQTT as the default then the server not
> the
> client is authenticated here.  You may not want to have lost the
> potentially
> here.
>

[CS] What I meant here was this: Given that the client pushed the token
using authz-info,
we expect it to use authenticate itself over TLS next time it connects
(otherwise it would have carried the token in the MQTT connect). I will fix
it as using client authentication over TLS (i.e, TLS:Known(RPK/PSK)-MQTT:none)
but wanted to check first if I missed your meaning.
https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/56


> * Section 2.2.3 - I think that the client state MUST include the token and
> either the same token is supplied or a token with the same key is supplied
> in order to match with an existing state.
>

I used a MAY because:
1) MQTT originally identifies resuming client with only client id.
2) The client MUST still provide a token when reconnecting and continuing a
session, and the broker MUST perform a validation.

If the broker additionally keeps the former token then it can identify the
client better.

However, the client may have gotten a new token, as it may know its token
has expired, or it just expanded its permissions between sessions.
Also, the CONNECT message does not specify how clients can push a
historical and a new token.

It may be seen as an issue that the broker authorises the current session
(not the continuation of the session) and uses the MQTT way to access the
session state by only the Client ID.
A problem may be that client A uses client_id1, disconnects and then client
B connects with client_id1, both using session continuation.
Then, the risk is client A's subscribed topics may be delivered to client B
because client B's token has the same set of permissions.
I think this is acceptable as client B's token already covers those topics
(although it may mean QoS issues for client A).

https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/57

>
> * Section 6.2 - I think it makes sense to put in a note that between the
> fact that the server will disconnect on almost any error and is not
> required
> to keep session state between connections, clients need to make a greater
> effort to ensure that tokens remain valid and they do not attempt to
> publish
> to topics that they do not have permissions for.


[CS] Added.
https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/58


>
> * Section 8 - The storage of tokens long term can be restricted to only
> current valid ones if an immediate validation of the token is done.  This
> means that the RS spends time doing the validation, but does not need to
> consume memory.
>

[CS] Just want to confirm; when you say storage of tokens restricted to
current valid ones.
 -> do you mean RS stores the valid tokens and does not store
introspection/validation result, and hence validate each time.
https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/59

>
> This is looking really good.  I think we have only two technical issues
> open
> at this point.  The question of registrations for hash identifications in
> confirmation claims and if changes to the default scope structure are to be
> done.
>
> Thank you, Jim.



> Jim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>

--0000000000008743a805a884f735
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello Jim,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Thank=
 you for the comments. Responses inline.</div></div><div>Changes in this <a=
 href=3D"https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/commit/c1e18dba6ce65866=
ad348dd42a9a96ec348a8937">commit=C2=A0</a></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:49 PM J=
im Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">Let&#39;s see if I can get the mailing list right this time<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jim Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; <br>
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:02 PM<br>
To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.org</=
a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cose@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">cose@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Review draft-ietf-ace-mqtt-tls-profile-05<br>
<br>
* Style Issue. &quot;Abbreviations should be expanded in document title and=
 upon<br>
first use in the document.=C2=A0 Full expansion of the text should be follo=
wed by<br>
the abbreviation in parentheses.&quot;=C2=A0 Some items such as TLS are con=
sidered to<br>
be known by everybody and thus do not need to be expanded.<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbr=
ev.expansion.txt</a> contains both<br>
&quot;known&quot; and &quot;unknown&quot; abbreviations.=C2=A0 (Yes this me=
ans you are going to have<br>
a really long title.)=C2=A0 (I might argue that=C2=A0 OASIS should be liste=
d as well<br>
known.)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[CS] Fixed (All style issues ar=
e in=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/53">=
https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/53</a>)=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 1 - para 1 - Sentence two has a plurality mismatch between client=
<br>
and server.=C2=A0 I think in this case server (and broker) should be plural=
ized.<br>
<br></blockquote><div>[CS] Fixed.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
* Section 1.3 - Broker - s/publishes/publish/=C2=A0 The set of pluralized i=
tems<br>
seems to be too large by one.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[CS] Fixe=
d=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 1.3 - I think we ought to define Session given that we no longer<=
br>
require that Clean Session be used.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0[CS] Added</div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profi=
le/issues/55">https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/55</a>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 1.3 - I do not believe that CONNACK is always the first packet<br=
>
from the broker to a client.=C2=A0 An AUTH message may be the first one.<br=
>
<br></blockquote><div>[CS] Removed that sentence.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
* Section 2.1 - para 3 s/the public key used by the RS/the public key to be=
<br>
used by the RS/<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[CS] Fixed.=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 2.1 - I think (but am not sure) that we may need to do some<br>
registrations around the use of thumbprints in a confirmation claim.=C2=A0 =
If I<br>
forget, please remind me to track this down.<br></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>[CS] Opened Github issue so that I do not forget.=C2=A0</div><div><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/54">https://githu=
b.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/54</a>=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 2.2.2 - para #1 - s/using client authentication/using server<br>
authentication/=C2=A0 If we are doing MQTT as the default then the server n=
ot the<br>
client is authenticated here.=C2=A0 You may not want to have lost the poten=
tially<br>
here.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[CS] What I meant here was this: =
Given that the client pushed the token using authz-info,</div><div>we expec=
t it to use authenticate itself over TLS next time it connects (otherwise i=
t would have carried the token in the MQTT connect). I will fix it as using=
 client authentication over TLS (i.e,=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);=
font-size:13.3333px">TLS:Known(RPK/PSK)-MQTT:none) but wanted to check firs=
t if I missed your meaning.</span></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/=
ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/56">https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profi=
le/issues/56</a>=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.33=
33px"><br></span></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 2.2.3 - I think that the client state MUST include the token and<=
br>
either the same token is supplied or a token with the same key is supplied<=
br>
in order to match with an existing state.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>I used a MAY because:</div><div>1) MQTT originally identifies resuming c=
lient with only client id.=C2=A0</div><div>2) The client MUST=C2=A0<span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px">still provide a token when rec=
onnecting and continuing a session, and the broker MUST perform a validatio=
n.=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333=
px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333=
px">If the broker additionally keeps the former token then it can identify =
the client better.</span><br></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><br></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#00000=
0"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px">However, the client may have gotten =
a new token, as it may know its token has expired, or it just expanded its =
permissions between sessions.=C2=A0</span></font></div><div><font color=3D"=
#000000"><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px">Also, the CONNECT message does=
 not specify how clients can push a historical and a new token.=C2=A0</span=
></font></div><div><br></div><div>It may be seen as an issue that the broke=
r authorises the current session (not the continuation of the session) and =
uses the MQTT way to access the session state by only the Client ID.=C2=A0<=
/div><div>A problem may be that client A uses client_id1, disconnects and t=
hen client B connects with client_id1, both using session continuation.=C2=
=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Then, the risk is client A&#39;s subscribed topics may =
be delivered to client B because client B&#39;s token has the same set of p=
ermissions.=C2=A0</div><div>I think this is acceptable as client B&#39;s to=
ken already covers those topics (although it may mean QoS issues for client=
 A).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/ace-wg/mq=
tt-tls-profile/issues/57">https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues=
/57</a>=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">
<br>
* Section 6.2 - I think it makes sense to put in a note that between the<br=
>
fact that the server will disconnect on almost any error and is not require=
d<br>
to keep session state between connections, clients need to make a greater<b=
r>
effort to ensure that tokens remain valid and they do not attempt to publis=
h<br>
to topics that they do not have permissions for.</blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>[CS] Added.=C2=A0</div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt=
-tls-profile/issues/58">https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/5=
8</a>=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
* Section 8 - The storage of tokens long term can be restricted to only<br>
current valid ones if an immediate validation of the token is done.=C2=A0 T=
his<br>
means that the RS spends time doing the validation, but does not need to<br=
>
consume memory.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[CS] Just want to confi=
rm; when you say storage of tokens restricted to current valid ones.=C2=A0<=
/div><div>=C2=A0-&gt; do you mean RS stores the valid tokens and does not s=
tore introspection/validation result, and hence validate each time.</div><d=
iv><a href=3D"https://github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/59">https:/=
/github.com/ace-wg/mqtt-tls-profile/issues/59</a>=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
This is looking really good.=C2=A0 I think we have only two technical issue=
s open<br>
at this point.=C2=A0 The question of registrations for hash identifications=
 in<br>
confirmation claims and if changes to the default scope structure are to be=
<br>
done.<br>
<br></blockquote><div>Thank you, Jim.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Jim<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000008743a805a884f735--


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Marco and I still have to do the bike shedding on the actual name =
(=E2=80=9Cace.ai=E2=80=9D below), but we can look at my proposed text =
already anyway:

8. IANA Considerations

8.NN. CoRE Resource Type registry

   IANA is requested to register a new Resource Type (rt=3D) Link Target
   Attribute in the "Resource Type (rt=3D) Link Target Attribute Values"
   subregistry under the "Constrained RESTful Environments (CoRE)
   Parameters" {{?IANA.core-parameters}} registry:

   rt=3D"ace.ai".  This resource type describes an ACE-OAuth authz-info
   endpoint resource.

   Specific ACE-OAuth profiles can use this common resource type for
   defining their profile-specific discovery processes.

Have I captured the discussion today?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Francesca, Cigdem,

One of the things that you might want to consider as part of you problem
with adapting to AIF is that the profile may want to re-define the bit
string so that instead of using the CoAP request codes, you use your set of
options allowing for a tighter encoding.

Jim



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I have posted the minutes for the meeting today.  If you want to make any
change let me know.

Jim



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That corresponds to what I expected to see.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann
> Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 8:56 AM
> To: ace@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ace] IANA considerations for authz-info RT
>=20
> Marco and I still have to do the bike shedding on the actual name =
(=E2=80=9Cace.ai=E2=80=9D
> below), but we can look at my proposed text already anyway:
>=20
> 8. IANA Considerations
>=20
> 8.NN. CoRE Resource Type registry
>=20
>    IANA is requested to register a new Resource Type (rt=3D) Link =
Target
>    Attribute in the "Resource Type (rt=3D) Link Target Attribute =
Values"
>    subregistry under the "Constrained RESTful Environments (CoRE)
>    Parameters" {{?IANA.core-parameters}} registry:
>=20
>    rt=3D"ace.ai".  This resource type describes an ACE-OAuth =
authz-info
>    endpoint resource.
>=20
>    Specific ACE-OAuth profiles can use this common resource type for
>    defining their profile-specific discovery processes.
>=20
> Have I captured the discussion today?
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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--00000000000077fa0f05a8b21fb2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi,

Following the interim meeting this morning, this email starts a call for
adoption of "Admin Interface for the OSCORE Group Manager"[1]. Please state
your opinion by July 6 2020 whether the WG should adopt or not this
document.

Yours,
Jim and Daniel

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin/

-- 
Daniel Migault
Ericsson

--00000000000077fa0f05a8b21fb2
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Hi,=C2=A0</font></di=
v><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D=
"arial, sans-serif">Following the interim meeting this morning, this email =
starts a call for adoption of &quot;<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255=
,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)">Admin Interface for the OSCORE Group Manager&qu=
ot;[1]. Please state your opinion by July 6 2020 whether the=C2=A0WG=C2=A0s=
hould=C2=A0adopt or not this document.</span></font></div><div><font face=
=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-seri=
f">Yours,=C2=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Jim and D=
aniel</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><f=
ont face=3D"arial, sans-serif">[1] <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin/</a><br clear=3D"all"></font><div><font face=
=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">--=
 <br></font><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gm=
ail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Danie=
l Migault<br></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Ericsson</f=
ont></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000077fa0f05a8b21fb2--


From nobody Mon Jun 22 13:57:51 2020
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The ACE WG has placed draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin in state
Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Jim Schaad)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin/



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The ACE WG has placed draft-bormann-core-ace-aif in state
Candidate for WG Adoption (entered by Jim Schaad)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif/



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : An Authorization Information Format (AIF) for ACE
        Author          : Carsten Bormann
	Filename        : draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2020-06-22

Abstract:
   Constrained Devices as they are used in the "Internet of Things" need
   security.  One important element of this security is that devices in
   the Internet of Things need to be able to decide which operations
   requested of them should be considered authorized, need to ascertain
   that the authorization to request the operation does apply to the
   actual requester, and need to ascertain that other devices they place
   requests on are the ones they intended.

   To transfer detailed authorization information from an authorization
   manager (such as an ACE-OAuth Authorization Server) to a device, a
   representation format is needed.  This document provides a suggestion
   for such a format, the Authorization Information Format (AIF).  AIF
   is defined both as a general structure that can be used for many
   different applications and as a specific refinement that describes
   REST resources and the permissions on them.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Mon Jun 22 15:17:01 2020
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Subject: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action: draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt)
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I went ahead and quickly implemented what we had discussed today.

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.html

Lots more editing to do, but the gist of what I was trying to say should =
be there.
Comments welcome!

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


> On 2020-06-23, at 00:12, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for =
Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : An Authorization Information Format (AIF) for =
ACE
>        Author          : Carsten Bormann
> 	Filename        : draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt
> 	Pages           : 9
> 	Date            : 2020-06-22
>=20
> Abstract:
>   Constrained Devices as they are used in the "Internet of Things" =
need
>   security.  One important element of this security is that devices in
>   the Internet of Things need to be able to decide which operations
>   requested of them should be considered authorized, need to ascertain
>   that the authorization to request the operation does apply to the
>   actual requester, and need to ascertain that other devices they =
place
>   requests on are the ones they intended.
>=20
>   To transfer detailed authorization information from an authorization
>   manager (such as an ACE-OAuth Authorization Server) to a device, a
>   representation format is needed.  This document provides a =
suggestion
>   for such a format, the Authorization Information Format (AIF).  AIF
>   is defined both as a general structure that can be used for many
>   different applications and as a specific refinement that describes
>   REST resources and the permissions on them.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


From nobody Mon Jun 22 23:24:50 2020
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Subject: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-34.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) using the OAuth 2.0 Framework (ACE-OAuth)
        Authors         : Ludwig Seitz
                          Goeran Selander
                          Erik Wahlstroem
                          Samuel Erdtman
                          Hannes Tschofenig
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-34.txt
	Pages           : 87
	Date            : 2020-06-22

Abstract:
   This specification defines a framework for authentication and
   authorization in Internet of Things (IoT) environments called ACE-
   OAuth.  The framework is based on a set of building blocks including
   OAuth 2.0 and the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP), thus
   transforming a well-known and widely used authorization solution into
   a form suitable for IoT devices.  Existing specifications are used
   where possible, but extensions are added and profiles are defined to
   better serve the IoT use cases.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-34
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-34

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-34


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Mon Jun 22 23:29:40 2020
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From: Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
CC: Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action: draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt)
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From: Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>
To: Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com>, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] Call for adoption draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Call for adoption draft-tiloca-ace-oscore-gm-admin
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Francesca Palombini' <francesca.palombini=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  'Carsten Bormann' <cabo@tzi.org>, 'Ace Wg' <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action: draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Francesca Palombini
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:45 AM
> To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
> Cc: Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se>
> Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action: =
draft-bormann-core-
> ace-aif-08.txt)
>=20
> Hi Carsten,
>=20
> Thanks for this quick update! Just some short high level comments, to =
make
> sure we can use this for ace-key-groupcomm-oscore.
>=20
> In ace-key-groupcomm-oscore, we would say that Toid is the identifier =
of the
> OSCORE group, so the OSCORE "group name", which is encoded as a bstr. =
For
> Tperm, it's a bit further away from what the aif document specifies =
(which is
> why I want to check with you), but we would go for array of tstr, =
since we can't
> really encode the permission to be a "monitor" node (for example) by
> indicating a REST method. This is a bit stretched from the document =
right now,
> but it should work.
>=20
> We would have to register a media type (and content format) for this, =
so what
> would this be? You use aif+cbor for the default, so maybe something =
like "aif-
> ace-group+cbor". For section 5.3, we would have to register Toid and =
Tperm
> with something like:
>=20
> Toid registry:
> * name: gname
> * description: group name of the OSCORE group as specified in ace-key-
> groupcomm-oscore
>=20
> Tperm registry:
> * name: roles
> * description: role of the group member as specified in =
ace-key-groupcomm-
> oscore
>=20
> I think we are missing some form of "encoding" column in the =
registries above.
> In that case it would be "bstr" for Toid gname and "CBOR array of =
tstr" for
> Tperm role. It would also be "tstr" for local-part Toid and "int" for =
Tperm REST-
> method-set. (also, minor, but you sometimes use "local-part" and =
sometimes
> "local-uri", see section 4). Even better, the description or the =
encoding in the
> registry could point to "path" and "permissions" cddl, for the default =
values in
> the aif doc.
>=20
> Using "array of tstr" for roles allows us to express what we need for =
"set of
> roles". I don't see this being in contrast with the aif document right =
now.

This follows what I would expect, for MQTT I would see

AIF-MQTT =3D AIF_Generic<filter, permissions>
filter =3D tstr
permissions =3D [ +permission ]
permission =3D "publish" / "subscribe"

For the group comm draft, I think that

AIF-GROUP-COM =3D AIF_Generic<path, permisions>
path =3D tstr  ; group name
permissions =3D uint . bits methods
methods =3D &(
    requester =3D 1,
   responder =3D 2,
   monitor =3D 3,
   verifier =3D 4
)

This does require a registry if we ever expect this to grow.
=20
> So all in all, I think this can work for ace-key-groupcomm-oscore. =
Please let me
> know if you see anything that bothers you in my summary.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Francesca
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 23/06/2020, 00:17, "Ace on behalf of Carsten Bormann" =
<ace-
> bounces@ietf.org on behalf of cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
>     I went ahead and quickly implemented what we had discussed today.
>=20
>     https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.html
>=20
>     Lots more editing to do, but the gist of what I was trying to say =
should be
> there.
>     Comments welcome!
>=20
>     Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
>=20
>     > On 2020-06-23, at 00:12, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>     > This draft is a work item of the Authentication and =
Authorization for
> Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.
>     >
>     >        Title           : An Authorization Information Format =
(AIF) for ACE
>     >        Author          : Carsten Bormann
>     > 	Filename        : draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt
>     > 	Pages           : 9
>     > 	Date            : 2020-06-22
>     >
>     > Abstract:
>     >   Constrained Devices as they are used in the "Internet of =
Things" need
>     >   security.  One important element of this security is that =
devices in
>     >   the Internet of Things need to be able to decide which =
operations
>     >   requested of them should be considered authorized, need to =
ascertain
>     >   that the authorization to request the operation does apply to =
the
>     >   actual requester, and need to ascertain that other devices =
they place
>     >   requests on are the ones they intended.
>     >
>     >   To transfer detailed authorization information from an =
authorization
>     >   manager (such as an ACE-OAuth Authorization Server) to a =
device, a
>     >   representation format is needed.  This document provides a =
suggestion
>     >   for such a format, the Authorization Information Format (AIF). =
 AIF
>     >   is defined both as a general structure that can be used for =
many
>     >   different applications and as a specific refinement that =
describes
>     >   REST resources and the permissions on them.
>     >
>     >
>     > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>     > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif/
>     >
>     > There are also htmlized versions available at:
>     > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
>     > =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
>     >
>     > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>     > =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
>     >
>     >
>     > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time =
of
> submission
>     > until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
>     >
>     > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>     > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>     >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > I-D-Announce mailing list
>     > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>     > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>     > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20
>     _______________________________________________
>     Ace mailing list
>     Ace@ietf.org
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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From: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 21:27:19 +0100
Message-ID: <CAA7SwCOW2pE7ZWNKmnwvw4woaO+34BVtMTd6GYuOhqSVbvDKQA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
Cc: Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>, Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action: draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt)
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This looks what I expected from the MQTT point of view. Thanks, Jim.
I will look into adding the change to the profile document now.
Kind regards,
--Cigdem


On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:48 PM Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Francesca Palombini
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:45 AM
> > To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
> > Cc: Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se>
> > Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action:
> draft-bormann-core-
> > ace-aif-08.txt)
> >
> > Hi Carsten,
> >
> > Thanks for this quick update! Just some short high level comments, to
> make
> > sure we can use this for ace-key-groupcomm-oscore.
> >
> > In ace-key-groupcomm-oscore, we would say that Toid is the identifier o=
f
> the
> > OSCORE group, so the OSCORE "group name", which is encoded as a bstr. F=
or
> > Tperm, it's a bit further away from what the aif document specifies
> (which is
> > why I want to check with you), but we would go for array of tstr, since
> we can't
> > really encode the permission to be a "monitor" node (for example) by
> > indicating a REST method. This is a bit stretched from the document
> right now,
> > but it should work.
> >
> > We would have to register a media type (and content format) for this, s=
o
> what
> > would this be? You use aif+cbor for the default, so maybe something lik=
e
> "aif-
> > ace-group+cbor". For section 5.3, we would have to register Toid and
> Tperm
> > with something like:
> >
> > Toid registry:
> > * name: gname
> > * description: group name of the OSCORE group as specified in ace-key-
> > groupcomm-oscore
> >
> > Tperm registry:
> > * name: roles
> > * description: role of the group member as specified in
> ace-key-groupcomm-
> > oscore
> >
> > I think we are missing some form of "encoding" column in the registries
> above.
> > In that case it would be "bstr" for Toid gname and "CBOR array of tstr"
> for
> > Tperm role. It would also be "tstr" for local-part Toid and "int" for
> Tperm REST-
> > method-set. (also, minor, but you sometimes use "local-part" and
> sometimes
> > "local-uri", see section 4). Even better, the description or the
> encoding in the
> > registry could point to "path" and "permissions" cddl, for the default
> values in
> > the aif doc.
> >
> > Using "array of tstr" for roles allows us to express what we need for
> "set of
> > roles". I don't see this being in contrast with the aif document right
> now.
>
> This follows what I would expect, for MQTT I would see
>
> AIF-MQTT =3D AIF_Generic<filter, permissions>
> filter =3D tstr
> permissions =3D [ +permission ]
> permission =3D "publish" / "subscribe"
>
> For the group comm draft, I think that
>
> AIF-GROUP-COM =3D AIF_Generic<path, permisions>
> path =3D tstr  ; group name
> permissions =3D uint . bits methods
> methods =3D &(
>     requester =3D 1,
>    responder =3D 2,
>    monitor =3D 3,
>    verifier =3D 4
> )
>
> This does require a registry if we ever expect this to grow.
>
> > So all in all, I think this can work for ace-key-groupcomm-oscore.
> Please let me
> > know if you see anything that bothers you in my summary.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Francesca
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 23/06/2020, 00:17, "Ace on behalf of Carsten Bormann" <ace-
> > bounces@ietf.org on behalf of cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
> >
> >     I went ahead and quickly implemented what we had discussed today.
> >
> >     https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.html
> >
> >     Lots more editing to do, but the gist of what I was trying to say
> should be
> > there.
> >     Comments welcome!
> >
> >     Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
> >
> >
> >     > On 2020-06-23, at 00:12, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Draft=
s
> > directories.
> >     > This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization
> for
> > Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.
> >     >
> >     >        Title           : An Authorization Information Format (AIF=
)
> for ACE
> >     >        Author          : Carsten Bormann
> >     >         Filename        : draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt
> >     >         Pages           : 9
> >     >         Date            : 2020-06-22
> >     >
> >     > Abstract:
> >     >   Constrained Devices as they are used in the "Internet of Things=
"
> need
> >     >   security.  One important element of this security is that
> devices in
> >     >   the Internet of Things need to be able to decide which operatio=
ns
> >     >   requested of them should be considered authorized, need to
> ascertain
> >     >   that the authorization to request the operation does apply to t=
he
> >     >   actual requester, and need to ascertain that other devices they
> place
> >     >   requests on are the ones they intended.
> >     >
> >     >   To transfer detailed authorization information from an
> authorization
> >     >   manager (such as an ACE-OAuth Authorization Server) to a device=
,
> a
> >     >   representation format is needed.  This document provides a
> suggestion
> >     >   for such a format, the Authorization Information Format (AIF).
> AIF
> >     >   is defined both as a general structure that can be used for man=
y
> >     >   different applications and as a specific refinement that
> describes
> >     >   REST resources and the permissions on them.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> >     > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif/
> >     >
> >     > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> >     > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
> >     >
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
> >     >
> >     > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> >     > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> > submission
> >     > until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> tools.ietf.org.
> >     >
> >     > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> >     > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > _______________________________________________
> >     > I-D-Announce mailing list
> >     > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> >     > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> >     > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     Ace mailing list
> >     Ace@ietf.org
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ace mailing list
> > Ace@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ace mailing list
> Ace@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">This looks what=C2=A0I expected from the MQTT point of vie=
w. Thanks, Jim.=C2=A0<div>I will look into adding the change to the profile=
 document now.=C2=A0</div><div>Kind regards,=C2=A0</div><div>--Cigdem=C2=A0=
<br><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:48 PM Jim Schaad &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Ace &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">ace-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Francesca Palombini<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:45 AM<br>
&gt; To: Carsten Bormann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cabo@tzi.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">cabo@tzi.org</a>&gt;; Ace Wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">ace@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: Marco Tiloca &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marco.tiloca@ri.se" target=3D"_=
blank">marco.tiloca@ri.se</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action: draft-borma=
nn-core-<br>
&gt; ace-aif-08.txt)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Carsten,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks for this quick update! Just some short high level comments, to =
make<br>
&gt; sure we can use this for ace-key-groupcomm-oscore.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In ace-key-groupcomm-oscore, we would say that Toid is the identifier =
of the<br>
&gt; OSCORE group, so the OSCORE &quot;group name&quot;, which is encoded a=
s a bstr. For<br>
&gt; Tperm, it&#39;s a bit further away from what the aif document specifie=
s (which is<br>
&gt; why I want to check with you), but we would go for array of tstr, sinc=
e we can&#39;t<br>
&gt; really encode the permission to be a &quot;monitor&quot; node (for exa=
mple) by<br>
&gt; indicating a REST method. This is a bit stretched from the document ri=
ght now,<br>
&gt; but it should work.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We would have to register a media type (and content format) for this, =
so what<br>
&gt; would this be? You use aif+cbor for the default, so maybe something li=
ke &quot;aif-<br>
&gt; ace-group+cbor&quot;. For section 5.3, we would have to register Toid =
and Tperm<br>
&gt; with something like:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Toid registry:<br>
&gt; * name: gname<br>
&gt; * description: group name of the OSCORE group as specified in ace-key-=
<br>
&gt; groupcomm-oscore<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Tperm registry:<br>
&gt; * name: roles<br>
&gt; * description: role of the group member as specified in ace-key-groupc=
omm-<br>
&gt; oscore<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think we are missing some form of &quot;encoding&quot; column in the=
 registries above.<br>
&gt; In that case it would be &quot;bstr&quot; for Toid gname and &quot;CBO=
R array of tstr&quot; for<br>
&gt; Tperm role. It would also be &quot;tstr&quot; for local-part Toid and =
&quot;int&quot; for Tperm REST-<br>
&gt; method-set. (also, minor, but you sometimes use &quot;local-part&quot;=
 and sometimes<br>
&gt; &quot;local-uri&quot;, see section 4). Even better, the description or=
 the encoding in the<br>
&gt; registry could point to &quot;path&quot; and &quot;permissions&quot; c=
ddl, for the default values in<br>
&gt; the aif doc.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Using &quot;array of tstr&quot; for roles allows us to express what we=
 need for &quot;set of<br>
&gt; roles&quot;. I don&#39;t see this being in contrast with the aif docum=
ent right now.<br>
<br>
This follows what I would expect, for MQTT I would see<br>
<br>
AIF-MQTT =3D AIF_Generic&lt;filter, permissions&gt;<br>
filter =3D tstr<br>
permissions =3D [ +permission ]<br>
permission =3D &quot;publish&quot; / &quot;subscribe&quot;<br>
<br>
For the group comm draft, I think that<br>
<br>
AIF-GROUP-COM =3D AIF_Generic&lt;path, permisions&gt;<br>
path =3D tstr=C2=A0 ; group name<br>
permissions =3D uint . bits methods<br>
methods =3D &amp;(<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 requester =3D 1,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0responder =3D 2,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor =3D 3,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0verifier =3D 4<br>
)<br>
<br>
This does require a registry if we ever expect this to grow.<br>
<br>
&gt; So all in all, I think this can work for ace-key-groupcomm-oscore. Ple=
ase let me<br>
&gt; know if you see anything that bothers you in my summary.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Francesca<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BFOn 23/06/2020, 00:17, &quot;Ace on behalf of Carsten Bormann&=
quot; &lt;ace-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bounces@ietf.org=
</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:cabo@tzi.org" target=3D"_blank">cabo@tz=
i.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I went ahead and quickly implemented what we had di=
scussed today.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-co=
re-ace-aif-08.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/id/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.html</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lots more editing to do, but the gist of what I was=
 trying to say should be<br>
&gt; there.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Comments welcome!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On 2020-06-23, at 00:12, <a href=3D"mailto:int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote=
:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-=
line Internet-Drafts<br>
&gt; directories.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; This draft is a work item of the Authenticatio=
n and Authorization for<br>
&gt; Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: An Authorization Information Format (AIF) for =
ACE<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Carsten Bormann<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 9<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2020-06-22<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Constrained Devices as they are us=
ed in the &quot;Internet of Things&quot; need<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0security.=C2=A0 One important elem=
ent of this security is that devices in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the Internet of Things need to be =
able to decide which operations<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0requested of them should be consid=
ered authorized, need to ascertain<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that the authorization to request =
the operation does apply to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0actual requester, and need to asce=
rtain that other devices they place<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests on are the ones they inte=
nded.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0To transfer detailed authorization=
 information from an authorization<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0manager (such as an ACE-OAuth Auth=
orization Server) to a device, a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0representation format is needed.=
=C2=A0 This document provides a suggestion<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0for such a format, the Authorizati=
on Information Format (AIF).=C2=A0 AIF<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0is defined both as a general struc=
ture that can be used for many<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0different applications and as a sp=
ecific refinement that describes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0REST resources and the permissions=
 on them.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draf=
t is:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-bormann-core-ace-aif/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif/</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; There are also htmlized versions available at:=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-b=
ormann-core-ace-aif-08" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/ht=
ml/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; A diff from the previous version is available =
at:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=
=3Ddraft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minut=
es from the time of<br>
&gt; submission<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; until the htmlized version and diff are availa=
ble at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymou=
s FTP at:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/<=
/a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; ______________________________________________=
_<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/i-d-announce" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Internet-Draft directories: <a href=3D"http://=
www.ietf.org/shadow.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.i=
etf.org/shadow.html</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; or <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-=
sites.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1sh=
adow-sites.txt</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ace mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">A=
ce@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ac=
e" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ace</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ace mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ace mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000003cbdbb05a8c63029--


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To: Cigdem Sengul <cigdem.sengul@gmail.com>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ace/cIJ62Rw02tJuGxQlEhOPBAfzFQI>
Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action: draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt)
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Hi,

I think AIF-GROUP-COM as defined below works well for
ace-key-groupcomm-oscore.

It sounds safe to also have a register for the role integer values.

Thanks,
/Marco

On 2020-06-23 22:27, Cigdem Sengul wrote:
> This looks what=C2=A0I expected from the MQTT point of view. Thanks, Ji=
m.=C2=A0
> I will look into adding the change to the profile document now.=C2=A0
> Kind regards,=C2=A0
> --Cigdem=C2=A0
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:48 PM Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com
> <mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org>>
>     On Behalf Of Francesca Palombini
>     > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:45 AM
>     > To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org <mailto:cabo@tzi.org>>; Ace Wg
>     <ace@ietf.org <mailto:ace@ietf.org>>
>     > Cc: Marco Tiloca <marco.tiloca@ri.se <mailto:marco.tiloca@ri.se>>=

>     > Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D Action:
>     draft-bormann-core-
>     > ace-aif-08.txt)
>     >
>     > Hi Carsten,
>     >
>     > Thanks for this quick update! Just some short high level
>     comments, to make
>     > sure we can use this for ace-key-groupcomm-oscore.
>     >
>     > In ace-key-groupcomm-oscore, we would say that Toid is the
>     identifier of the
>     > OSCORE group, so the OSCORE "group name", which is encoded as a
>     bstr. For
>     > Tperm, it's a bit further away from what the aif document
>     specifies (which is
>     > why I want to check with you), but we would go for array of
>     tstr, since we can't
>     > really encode the permission to be a "monitor" node (for example)=
 by
>     > indicating a REST method. This is a bit stretched from the
>     document right now,
>     > but it should work.
>     >
>     > We would have to register a media type (and content format) for
>     this, so what
>     > would this be? You use aif+cbor for the default, so maybe
>     something like "aif-
>     > ace-group+cbor". For section 5.3, we would have to register Toid
>     and Tperm
>     > with something like:
>     >
>     > Toid registry:
>     > * name: gname
>     > * description: group name of the OSCORE group as specified in
>     ace-key-
>     > groupcomm-oscore
>     >
>     > Tperm registry:
>     > * name: roles
>     > * description: role of the group member as specified in
>     ace-key-groupcomm-
>     > oscore
>     >
>     > I think we are missing some form of "encoding" column in the
>     registries above.
>     > In that case it would be "bstr" for Toid gname and "CBOR array
>     of tstr" for
>     > Tperm role. It would also be "tstr" for local-part Toid and
>     "int" for Tperm REST-
>     > method-set. (also, minor, but you sometimes use "local-part" and
>     sometimes
>     > "local-uri", see section 4). Even better, the description or the
>     encoding in the
>     > registry could point to "path" and "permissions" cddl, for the
>     default values in
>     > the aif doc.
>     >
>     > Using "array of tstr" for roles allows us to express what we
>     need for "set of
>     > roles". I don't see this being in contrast with the aif document
>     right now.
>
>     This follows what I would expect, for MQTT I would see
>
>     AIF-MQTT =3D AIF_Generic<filter, permissions>
>     filter =3D tstr
>     permissions =3D [ +permission ]
>     permission =3D "publish" / "subscribe"
>
>     For the group comm draft, I think that
>
>     AIF-GROUP-COM =3D AIF_Generic<path, permisions>
>     path =3D tstr=C2=A0 ; group name
>     permissions =3D uint . bits methods
>     methods =3D &(
>     =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requester =3D 1,
>     =C2=A0 =C2=A0responder =3D 2,
>     =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor =3D 3,
>     =C2=A0 =C2=A0verifier =3D 4
>     )
>
>     This does require a registry if we ever expect this to grow.
>
>     > So all in all, I think this can work for
>     ace-key-groupcomm-oscore. Please let me
>     > know if you see anything that bothers you in my summary.
>     >
>     > Thanks,
>     > Francesca
>     >
>     > =EF=BB=BFOn 23/06/2020, 00:17, "Ace on behalf of Carsten Bormann"=
 <ace-
>     > bounces@ietf.org <mailto:bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of
>     cabo@tzi.org <mailto:cabo@tzi.org>> wrote:
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I went ahead and quickly implemented what we h=
ad discussed
>     today.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-core-ace=
-aif-08.html
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lots more editing to do, but the gist of what =
I was trying
>     to say should be
>     > there.
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Comments welcome!
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>     >
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On 2020-06-23, at 00:12, internet-drafts@iet=
f.org
>     <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> A New Internet-Draft is available from the o=
n-line
>     Internet-Drafts
>     > directories.
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> This draft is a work item of the Authenticat=
ion and
>     Authorization for
>     > Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: An Authorization Information
>     Format (AIF) for ACE
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Carsten Bormann
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 9
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2020-06-22
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Abstract:
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Constrained Devices as they are =
used in the "Internet of
>     Things" need
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0security.=C2=A0 One important el=
ement of this security is
>     that devices in
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the Internet of Things need to b=
e able to decide which
>     operations
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0requested of them should be cons=
idered authorized, need
>     to ascertain
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0that the authorization to reques=
t the operation does
>     apply to the
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0actual requester, and need to as=
certain that other
>     devices they place
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests on are the ones they in=
tended.
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0To transfer detailed authorizati=
on information from an
>     authorization
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0manager (such as an ACE-OAuth Au=
thorization Server) to a
>     device, a
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0representation format is needed.=
=C2=A0 This document provides
>     a suggestion
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0for such a format, the Authoriza=
tion Information Format
>     (AIF).=C2=A0 AIF
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0is defined both as a general str=
ucture that can be used
>     for many
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0different applications and as a =
specific refinement that
>     describes
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0REST resources and the permissio=
ns on them.
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The IETF datatracker status page for this dr=
aft is:
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-borma=
nn-core-ace-aif/
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> There are also htmlized versions available a=
t:
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-co=
re-ace-aif-08
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08=

>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> A diff from the previous version is availabl=
e at:
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Please note that it may take a couple of min=
utes from the
>     time of
>     > submission
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> until the htmlized version and diff are avai=
lable at
>     tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>.
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonym=
ous FTP at:
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ____________________________________________=
___
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I-D-Announce mailing list
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@i=
etf.org>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-an=
nounce
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.=
org/shadow.html
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt=

>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________________________________=
_
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ace mailing list
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Ace mailing list
>     > Ace@ietf.org <mailto:Ace@ietf.org>
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>
>     _______________________________________________
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>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace
>

--=20
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
Division ICT
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
https://www.ri.se


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    Hi,<br>
    <br>
    I think AIF-GROUP-COM as defined below works well for
    ace-key-groupcomm-oscore.<br>
    <br>
    It sounds safe to also have a register for the role integer values.<b=
r>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    /Marco<br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2020-06-23 22:27, Cigdem Sengul
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"
cite=3D"mid:CAA7SwCOW2pE7ZWNKmnwvw4woaO+34BVtMTd6GYuOhqSVbvDKQA@mail.gmai=
l.com">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DU=
TF-8">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">This looks what=C2=A0I expected from the MQTT poin=
t of
        view. Thanks, Jim.=C2=A0
        <div>I will look into adding the change to the profile document
          now.=C2=A0</div>
        <div>Kind regards,=C2=A0</div>
        <div>--Cigdem=C2=A0<br>
          <div><br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
        <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:4=
8
          PM Jim Schaad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@augustcellars.com"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ietf@augustcellars.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<br>
          <br>
          &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
          &gt; From: Ace &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ace-bounces@ietf.org"
            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ace-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
          On Behalf Of Francesca Palombini<br>
          &gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:45 AM<br>
          &gt; To: Carsten Bormann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cabo@tzi.org"
            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">cabo@tzi.org</a>&g=
t;;
          Ace Wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ace@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ace@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
          &gt; Cc: Marco Tiloca &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marco.tiloca@ri.se"=

            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">marco.tiloca@ri.se=
</a>&gt;<br>
          &gt; Subject: Re: [Ace] AIF as discussed today (Re: I-D
          Action: draft-bormann-core-<br>
          &gt; ace-aif-08.txt)<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; Hi Carsten,<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; Thanks for this quick update! Just some short high level
          comments, to make<br>
          &gt; sure we can use this for ace-key-groupcomm-oscore.<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; In ace-key-groupcomm-oscore, we would say that Toid is
          the identifier of the<br>
          &gt; OSCORE group, so the OSCORE "group name", which is
          encoded as a bstr. For<br>
          &gt; Tperm, it's a bit further away from what the aif document
          specifies (which is<br>
          &gt; why I want to check with you), but we would go for array
          of tstr, since we can't<br>
          &gt; really encode the permission to be a "monitor" node (for
          example) by<br>
          &gt; indicating a REST method. This is a bit stretched from
          the document right now,<br>
          &gt; but it should work.<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; We would have to register a media type (and content
          format) for this, so what<br>
          &gt; would this be? You use aif+cbor for the default, so maybe
          something like "aif-<br>
          &gt; ace-group+cbor". For section 5.3, we would have to
          register Toid and Tperm<br>
          &gt; with something like:<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; Toid registry:<br>
          &gt; * name: gname<br>
          &gt; * description: group name of the OSCORE group as
          specified in ace-key-<br>
          &gt; groupcomm-oscore<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; Tperm registry:<br>
          &gt; * name: roles<br>
          &gt; * description: role of the group member as specified in
          ace-key-groupcomm-<br>
          &gt; oscore<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; I think we are missing some form of "encoding" column in
          the registries above.<br>
          &gt; In that case it would be "bstr" for Toid gname and "CBOR
          array of tstr" for<br>
          &gt; Tperm role. It would also be "tstr" for local-part Toid
          and "int" for Tperm REST-<br>
          &gt; method-set. (also, minor, but you sometimes use
          "local-part" and sometimes<br>
          &gt; "local-uri", see section 4). Even better, the description
          or the encoding in the<br>
          &gt; registry could point to "path" and "permissions" cddl,
          for the default values in<br>
          &gt; the aif doc.<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; Using "array of tstr" for roles allows us to express what
          we need for "set of<br>
          &gt; roles". I don't see this being in contrast with the aif
          document right now.<br>
          <br>
          This follows what I would expect, for MQTT I would see<br>
          <br>
          AIF-MQTT =3D AIF_Generic&lt;filter, permissions&gt;<br>
          filter =3D tstr<br>
          permissions =3D [ +permission ]<br>
          permission =3D "publish" / "subscribe"<br>
          <br>
          For the group comm draft, I think that<br>
          <br>
          AIF-GROUP-COM =3D AIF_Generic&lt;path, permisions&gt;<br>
          path =3D tstr=C2=A0 ; group name<br>
          permissions =3D uint . bits methods<br>
          methods =3D &amp;(<br>
          =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requester =3D 1,<br>
          =C2=A0 =C2=A0responder =3D 2,<br>
          =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor =3D 3,<br>
          =C2=A0 =C2=A0verifier =3D 4<br>
          )<br>
          <br>
          This does require a registry if we ever expect this to grow.<br=
>
          <br>
          &gt; So all in all, I think this can work for
          ace-key-groupcomm-oscore. Please let me<br>
          &gt; know if you see anything that bothers you in my summary.<b=
r>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; Thanks,<br>
          &gt; Francesca<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; =EF=BB=BFOn 23/06/2020, 00:17, "Ace on behalf of Carsten B=
ormann"
          &lt;ace-<br>
          &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a=

            href=3D"mailto:cabo@tzi.org" target=3D"_blank"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">cabo@tzi.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I went ahead and quickly implemented wh=
at we had
          discussed today.<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a
            href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08=
=2Ehtml"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.html</a><br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lots more editing to do, but the gist o=
f what I was
          trying to say should be<br>
          &gt; there.<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Comments welcome!<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten<br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On 2020-06-23, at 00:12, <a
            href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:<=
br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available =
from the
          on-line Internet-Drafts<br>
          &gt; directories.<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; This draft is a work item of the A=
uthentication
          and Authorization for<br>
          &gt; Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: An Authorization
          Information Format (AIF) for ACE<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Carsten Bormann<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0F=
ilename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :
          draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08.txt<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0P=
ages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 9<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0D=
ate=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2020-06-22<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Abstract:<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Constrained Devices as=
 they are used in the
          "Internet of Things" need<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0security.=C2=A0 One im=
portant element of this
          security is that devices in<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the Internet of Things=
 need to be able to
          decide which operations<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0requested of them shou=
ld be considered
          authorized, need to ascertain<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that the authorization=
 to request the
          operation does apply to the<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0actual requester, and =
need to ascertain that
          other devices they place<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests on are the on=
es they intended.<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0To transfer detailed a=
uthorization information
          from an authorization<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0manager (such as an AC=
E-OAuth Authorization
          Server) to a device, a<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0representation format =
is needed.=C2=A0 This
          document provides a suggestion<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0for such a format, the=
 Authorization
          Information Format (AIF).=C2=A0 AIF<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0is defined both as a g=
eneral structure that
          can be used for many<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0different applications=
 and as a specific
          refinement that describes<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0REST resources and the=
 permissions on them.<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; The IETF datatracker status page f=
or this draft
          is:<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a
            href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-a=
ce-aif/"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif/</a><br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; There are also htmlized versions a=
vailable at:<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a
            href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-ai=
f-08"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08</a><br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-=
08"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08</a><=
br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; A diff from the previous version i=
s available
          at:<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a
            href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-cor=
e-ace-aif-08"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-core-ace-aif-08</a><br=
>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please note that it may take a cou=
ple of minutes
          from the time of<br>
          &gt; submission<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; until the htmlized version and dif=
f are
          available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferre=
r"
            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">tools.ietf.org</a>=
=2E<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available=
 by anonymous
          FTP at:<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/inte=
rnet-drafts/"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; __________________________________=
_____________<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@iet=
f.org"
            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">I-D-Announce@ietf.=
org</a><br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a
            href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Internet-Draft directories: <a
            href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html" rel=3D"noreferrer"
            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">http://www.ietf.or=
g/shadow.html</a><br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; or <a
            href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________=
________<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ace mailing list<br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
          &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/ace"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
          &gt; <br>
          &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
          &gt; Ace mailing list<br>
          &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
          &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
          <br>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          Ace mailing list<br>
          <a href=3D"mailto:Ace@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Ace@ietf.org</a><br>
          <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace"
            rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace</a><br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
Division ICT
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ri.se">https://www=
=2Eri.se</a></pre>
  </body>
</html>

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This is a clean review so the last one most likely still applies.

*  From my review of the group comm document.  There needs to be an easy way
to talk about a single entry in the array of all permissions.  Some times
you only want to ask for one thing and not deal with permissions for any
other Toid.  Perhaps also define an AIF-Generic-One<>

* Section 3 - I think you might want to highlight that the first bullet
implies that once a Toid is found, then there is no need to continue
searching.   The array allows this because it is an ordered list.  Optional
to toss the authorization set if a duplicate Toid is found.  (And no, I
don't want to switch to a map.)

* Section 3 - the previous statement is correct for this data model.  Should
it be a requirement for all data models encoded with this?  (I think yes)

* Section 3 - I am happy that you are pushing the JSON encoding as a text
string!!!

* Section 2.1 - I think it would be better to use one of the URI naming
parts than using local-part as the identifier assigned here.   My problem is
that local-part is a term I associate with email addresses.  Perhaps
"path-query" with or without a leading uri would be a better name.

* Section 2.2 - Some of the implementations might be avoided by making a
single operation into a series of steps which can then be checked.  Thus
"opening an unlocked door" becomes two steps "unlock a door" and "open a
door" with different permissions set for each.

* Section ?? - We should probably say something about the use of "0" for
permissions in this model.  Is this legal and means nothing else?

Jim



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments (ACE) using the OAuth 2.0 Framework (ACE-OAuth)
        Authors         : Ludwig Seitz
                          Goeran Selander
                          Erik Wahlstroem
                          Samuel Erdtman
                          Hannes Tschofenig
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35.txt
	Pages           : 87
	Date            : 2020-06-24

Abstract:
   This specification defines a framework for authentication and
   authorization in Internet of Things (IoT) environments called ACE-
   OAuth.  The framework is based on a set of building blocks including
   OAuth 2.0 and the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP), thus
   transforming a well-known and widely used authorization solution into
   a form suitable for IoT devices.  Existing specifications are used
   where possible, but extensions are added and profiles are defined to
   better serve the IoT use cases.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Seitz Ludwig <ludwig.seitz@combitech.se>
To: "ace@ietf.org" <ace@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35.txt
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Subject: [Ace] FW:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35.txt
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Hello ACE,

Sadly my -34 update contained an unintended change that we earlier discusse=
d and rejected. -35 reverts this mistaken update. Sorry for that.

(Note to self: check diffs before submitting)


/Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
Sent: den 24 juni 2020 10:50
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: ace@ietf.org
Subject: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Const=
rained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Authentication and Authorization for Constrained =
Environments (ACE) using the OAuth 2.0 Framework (ACE-OAuth)
        Authors         : Ludwig Seitz
                          Goeran Selander
                          Erik Wahlstroem
                          Samuel Erdtman
                          Hannes Tschofenig
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35.txt
	Pages           : 87
	Date            : 2020-06-24

Abstract:
   This specification defines a framework for authentication and
   authorization in Internet of Things (IoT) environments called ACE-
   OAuth.  The framework is based on a set of building blocks including
   OAuth 2.0 and the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP), thus
   transforming a well-known and widely used authorization solution into
   a form suitable for IoT devices.  Existing specifications are used
   where possible, but extensions are added and profiles are defined to
   better serve the IoT use cases.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ace-oauth-authz-35


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace


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* Section 1 para 1 - I have a vague memory of deciding that we were going to
become CBOR only with this document per the argument from Carsten.  I did
not find this in the minutes so this could easily be some other document
that I am thinking of.

* Section 2 - I have a problem with Figure 1 in terms of what is labeled as
an RS.  The text below calls the KDC and RS and not the Dispatcher.  

* Section 2 - update DTLS reference

* Section 2 - I think you might want the last sentence to refer to step 3
rather than section  - The pointer to the section has already been provided
but pointing back to the figure makes a degree of sense.

* Section 2 - KDC - This is the first time that I have heard about the fact
that this is a two part protocol - You should tell me about the phases
before you get here.

* Section 2 - "Leaving or removing" this is a sentence which does not read
well.  (Also why is this current when no other line is.)

* Section 2 - You should probably have a numbered item that corresponds to
the secure group communication line in the picture.

* Section 3 - The content format application/ace+cbor is not defined by the
transport profiles but by the framework.

* Section 3.1 - Given that a role is defined as a tstr, that format is not
usable if one wishes to assign an integer abbreviation per OPT7.

* Section 3.1 - the "Other additional" seems to be a strange thing to have
in this list because it does not match the lead in paragraph.

* Section 3.1 - Is there a reason that a gid is a bstr and not a tstr.  I
assume that this is the same as GROUPNAME which much be a text string to be
in a url-path.

* Section 3.2 - s/non expired/non-expired/

* Section 3.2 - the def of scope seems odd because it is not well defined if
it would be the same as the requested scope. (AS response)

* Section 3.2 - the text w/ scope can be simplified to the scope that the AS
grants access to and skip the last sentence.

* Section 3.2 - ditto w/ above on "other additional"

* Section 3.3 - s/request necessary information/request information/

* Section 3.3 - Am I supposed to know why I care about public keys at this
point?

* Section 3.3 - last sentence of the text implies that sign_info and
pub_key_enc are required.  Last sentence of para 2 needs to be re-written

* Section 3.3 - should identify what sign_info is for.

* Section 3.3 - are you imposing a new requirement that the token be
validated prior to returning the response to a token post?  As I remember
it, this is not required to happen prior to the response being returned just
before access is granted.  (I.e. you can validate the token in parallel)
(After successful verification...)

* Section 3.3 - "payload of response deviates"  I don't believe that this is
a true statement.  However, you should state at tis point how it deviates if
you believe it does.  I assume that you mean that there is a payload as
oppose to no payload.
  
* Section 3.3 - You would not be able to reuse the same kdcchallenge value
with a different key.  It would not have any way of being associated with
that key and would look like somebody else was attempting to use the value.

* Section 3.3 - s/were included in the request/are included in the request/
present tense.

* Section 3.3 - Do you really mean to say "request includes pub_key_enc",
"response does not include pub_key_enc"?  That seems to be wrong in the
general case.  Also seems to say the same thing about 'sign_info'.  Also
seems to contradict the next paragraph.

* Section 3.3 - The forward reference for sign_info is incorrect - it should
be 3.3.1.  (I also don't know if you need this two paragraphs in a row.)

* Same paragraph - group identifier or group name?  You need to do a
detailed pass through the document and look at every instance of this string
and either make it an identifier or a name and perhaps add these to the
terminology section so that one can quickly look back to distinguish them.
Perhaps you should be using context identifier rather than group identifier
just to make it clearer the difference between what goes into the different
locations.  The problem with that is it is OSCORE specific so it may not
work well.

* Section 3.3 - last paragraph - should this be referring to applications or
profiles?  -- really a global question.  Consider - is the OSCORE profile
attached to a specific application or to a set of unknown applications?

* Section 3.3.1 - s/one ore more/one or more/

* Section 3.3.1 - s/is lower or at most equal to/is at most/ - also what
happen if the response would include zero elements?  You asked and nothing
needs to be returned?

* Section 3.3.1 - second bullet - kill the "if included" text.  This is
covered above.

* Section 3.3.1 - s/sign_info/sign_info/

* Section 3.3.1 - This is looking really complicated and I don't know why
you don't just simplify it down to a single request/response pair.  Define a
value for use when the server either does not know or does not want to share
a value and so forth.  The size of data if sign_info were to be omitted is
almost the same size as if it where present so that does not seem to be much
of a win.  Making the answer one byte longer for adding the pub_key_enc_res
field does not seem to be a huge problem for a one-time message.

 * Section 3.3.1 - The first paragraph implies that pub_key_enc would be in
the reply but don't have any information about what that would look like.
See also previous item.

* Section 3.3.3 - s/((/(/

* Section 4 - why are you calling this the first exchange with the KDC - who
was I talking to in section 3?

* Section  4 - are the policies new or just retrieved?  May want to swap
order.

* Section 4 - are we still specifying a group to join or is that implicit in
the URL?  Tell me how it is specified?

* Section 4 - I don't think that the (re-) is helping understanding here.

* Section  4 - what type of individual key is being obtained in bullet 2 -
how is this different than getting the current keying material?

* Section  4 - Who is enforcing the policies?  Just retrieve the policies.

* Section 4 - I don't think the e.g. in getting public keys serves a purpose
here.

* Section 4 - I am not sure what the "at hand" is supposed to be providing.
/for the requested group identifier/

* Section  4.1 - do we want to make the if value be a dot tree?  ace.group

* Section 4.1 - The bullet for /ace-group seems to indicate that the name is
fixed which is the opposite of what the previous paragraph says.  I find
this confusing.  I really find it confusing that this document is specifying
a url-path name is being specified, and the oscore document immediately uses
a different value.

* Section 4.1 - what does it mean for a sub-resource to be "fixed".  Does
that mean it never changes?

* Section 4.1 - a brief description of what is in the resource would be
helpful here.  "pub-key: this resource contains the public keys of all group
members.  The resource supports the GET and FETCH methods."

* Section 4.1 - Yes but what is a NODENAME and why do I care about it?

* Section 4.1.2.1 - It would be useful in the first paragraph to re-iterate
that this is the "join" operation  The current description seems to be
really odd.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - get_pub_keys - One consideration that needs to be
highlighted for a constrained device is that this may result in a large
return value and it may be better to get them only as needed.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - It would be nice to be able to use get_pub_keys with a
filter so that only responders are returned.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - 'client_cred' the description of when this field is used
does not seem to include a server which only responds to an individual. It
could be said in that case that it is not sending messages "to the group"
but only to a member of the group.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - 'conce' why bother pointing to ACE for a description of
this document.  This is not a framework message so I am not sure why this is
interesting.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - Which scope is being used, the one in this message
(assuming it exists) or the one in the token?  If the message does not have
one then what happens?  Deterministic encoding?

* Section 4.1.2.1 - s/token is not being posted/token was not posted/

* Section 4.1.2.1 - formatting - the follow on paragraph to
'client_cred_verify' should be indented a level

* Section 4.1.2.1 - You missed the merge of sign_info and pub_key_enc in the
error handling paragraph.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - What is the reasoning behind returning the sign_info_res
field if the group is not in the scope.  This is not related to the failure
in any way.  Seems more like this would return a pointer to the AS rather
than anything else.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - How much can I just ignore rather than error?  If you
send me a public key and I don't care about it why can I not just ignore
that fact and go forward?  I both agree and disagree with the idea that
erroring on unknown fields is the correct way to proceed.

* Section 4.1.2.1 /succed/succeeded/

* Section 4.1.2.1 - (para before bullet) I don't like the idea that if you
send me a public key, I would use the stored one before looking at the one
that is in the join message.  This seems to be backwards behavior.  Note the
paragraph following the bullets is saying exactly the opposite thing a this
one is.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - I am not clear on the following situation:  Key P1 is
associated with groupX,  I do a second join and send key P1 but have a cred
verify that would fail.  Am I expected to detect this and error or say that
because you have already verified P1 it does not matter?

* Section 4.1.2.1 - both bullets are talking about failed verification -
kill the redundancy.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - 'num' the rule on the initial value of num should be put
into a section about setting up a group not here.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - 'num' vs 'ctx-num' should be harmonized.

* Section 4.1.2.1 - exp_delta should specify a default if it is not in the
message.  I there a reason that this is not a policy for the group?

* Section 4.1.2.2 - Ditto to above on the field being returned in the event
of 4.01

* Section 4.1.2.2 - I don't understand the need for 'gkty' as that I should
know from the join and it should never change in the life of the group.  I
would also expect that 'exp' is something that at least SHOULD be included
as that does change and is useful to have.

* Section 4.1.2.2 - Is the 'key' value expected to be modified for the
requester?

* Section 4.1.3.1 - What is the reason for having a map in this request
type.  Why not just have the array itself?

* Section 4.1.3.1 - Looks like a formatting error 2 paragraphs after figure
7

* Section 4.1.3.1 - The text on the first selection criteria has me really
messed up because I am not sure that 

* Section 4.1.3.1 - If not storing keys, should this return either resource
not found or not supported as an error code instead of an empty response?

* Section 4.1.3.1 - s/resource handlers only verify/resource handler only
verifies/  Unless you move it up one level.

* Section 4.1.4.1 - can we get rid of the map?

* Section 4.1.6.1 - I have no idea from the text why I would use this
method.

* Section 4.1.6.3 - para 2 - the first sentence does not make any sense to
me.  How could the handler accept a request for a node does not match
"NODENAME" as that is the url-path?

* Section 4.2 - "retrieve individual or group keying material"  What
individual material?

* Section 4.3 - /target the URI path possibly provided by/ This text either
needs to be a definitive method or some type of alternative method needs to
be provided.

* Section 4.3 - I am worried about congestion in more places than just for
Observe.  If a server is sending lots of messages out to clients on a
one-to-one basis it could easily flood the network.

* Section 4.4 - What does the first sentence even mean?  It seems to be
almost a circular argument.  

* Section 4.4 - I find the title of 4.4 to be somewhat misleading.  As far
as I can tell this is only talking about one type of renewal, but even that
is not clear to me.

* Section 4.4 - Why would it require an error in the event that a full rekey
is going to be done by the server, can't it just do the full renewal and
return the answer to the PUT?

* Section 4.5 - Is the second paragraph in the wrong place?  I don't really
care what the client does only what the server does.

* Section 4.6 - /After distributing the new group keying material/ This
should be done before doing that - it should also be committed long term
storage if one expects the KDC to restart w/o a forced rekey event.  And
even then it potentially should have a new context number.

* Section 5 - see previous comment

* Section 5 - Does the use of the DELETE method to inform a client that it
is no longer part of the group imply that a different control path is needed
for every group that the client joins?  I don't know that I was expecting
that.

Section 7 - / end of the rekeying process and the next loss of security
state/  This is not what I was trying to get at and it makes no sense to me.
The question is the interval between the end of the last rekey process and
the client joining the group.  If that is small enough then replay will not
work.

Section 7 /the Observations up to that point/ this does not make any sense.
You can lose who I currently doing the observation but you have already
tossed all of the observations themselves even without a reboot.

Section 7 - I don't understand the conditions you have laid out for doing
delayed rekeying  I would expect that it is a minimum number OR a maximum
interval.  But I don't think that is what this says.

Section 7 - This is a tic that I am trying to stop in my own writing.  Look
at all instances of "In fact," and they can probably be removed.  The other
one that I use a lot is "Actually,"

Section 7 - s/initiating rekeys/initiating rekey events/

Section 7.1 - Para 2 - it would not be a second try as the KID context field
would be different in general.

Jim














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Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA
for IETF108.  Remember that there is still quite some potential for
changes.

Conflicts that meet the eye:  LAKE/SUIT (!). ACE/RATS.  (I think
6LO/COSE can be ignored.)  HACKATHON is on top of CORE, but I don't
know what that slot on Friday is supposed to be.

All times appear to be in UTC, even though nothing says so;
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc gives the same times.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

MONDAY, July 27, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 1    	ART	dispatch	Dispatch WG
Rm 5    	IRTF	pearg	Privacy Enhancements and Assessments =
Research Group
Rm 2    	SEC ***	teep	Trusted Execution Environment =
Provisioning WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 4    	ART ***	cbor	Concise Binary Object Representation =
Maintenance and Extensions WG
Rm 6    	INT	intarea	Internet Area Working Group WG
Rm 2    	RTG	babel	Babel routing protocol WG
Rm 5    	RTG	detnet	Deterministic Networking WG

1410-1550  Session III
Rm 5    	ART	webtrans	WebTransport WG
Rm 4    	IRTF	qirg	Quantum Internet Research Group
Rm 2    	SEC	gnap	Grant Negotiation and Authorization =
Protocol WG

TUESDAY, July 28, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 1    	ART ***	asdf	A Semantic Definition Format for Data =
and Interactions of Things BOF
Rm 2    	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Rm 3    	IRTF	irtfopen	IRTF Open Meeting
Rm 8    	TSV	masque	Multiplexed Application Substrate over =
QUIC Encryption WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 4    	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG
Rm 3    	SEC ***	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG

1410-1550  Session III
Rm 4    	SEC ***	lake	Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange =
WG
Rm 3    	SEC ***	suit	Software Updates for Internet of Things =
WG
Rm 2    	TSV	loops	Local Optimizations on Path Segments BOF

WEDNESDAY, July 29, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 5    	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG
Rm 4    	SEC ***	ace	Authentication and Authorization for =
Constrained Environments WG
Rm 3    	SEC ***	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG
Rm 2    	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 6    	ART	webtrans	WebTransport WG
Rm 2    	INT ***	6lo	IPv6 over Networks of =
Resource-constrained Nodes WG
Rm 4    	RTG	rift	Routing In Fat Trees WG
Rm 5    	SEC ***	cose	CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG
Rm 1    	TSV	tsvarea	Transport Area Open Meeting

THURSDAY, July 30, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 6    	OPS	anima	Autonomic Networking Integrated Model =
and Approach WG
Rm 4    	RTG	raw	Reliable and Available Wireless WG
Rm 5    	SEC	secdispatch	Security Dispatch WG
Rm 2    	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 3    	INT ***	lpwan	IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks =
WG
Rm 2    	SEC	saag	Security Area Open Meeting

1410-1550  Session III
Rm 6    	INT	add	Adaptive DNS Discovery WG
Rm 7    	INT ***	drip	Drone Remote ID Protocol WG
Rm 4    	SEC	acme	Automated Certificate Management =
Environment WG

FRIDAY, July 31, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 8    	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Rm 6    	GEN	hackathon	Hackathon
Rm 2    	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG
Rm 1    	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 3    	ART	wpack	Web Packaging WG
Rm 4    	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Rm 6    	SEC	emu	EAP Method Update WG

1410-1550  Session III
Rm 1    	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Rm 7    	IRTF	coinrg	Computing in the Network Research Group
Rm 3    	SEC	privacypass	Privacy Pass WG



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Subject: [Ace] I-D Action: draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-09.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Authentication and Authorization for Constrained Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : An Authorization Information Format (AIF) for ACE
        Author          : Carsten Bormann
	Filename        : draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-09.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2020-06-27

Abstract:
   Constrained Devices as they are used in the "Internet of Things" need
   security.  One important element of this security is that devices in
   the Internet of Things need to be able to decide which operations
   requested of them should be considered authorized, need to ascertain
   that the authorization to request the operation does apply to the
   actual requester, and need to ascertain that other devices they place
   requests on are the ones they intended.

   To transfer detailed authorization information from an authorization
   manager (such as an ACE-OAuth Authorization Server) to a device, a
   representation format is needed.  This document provides a suggestion
   for such a format, the Authorization Information Format (AIF).  AIF
   is defined both as a general structure that can be used for many
   different applications and as a specific refinement that describes
   REST resources and the permissions on them.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Sat Jun 27 14:44:17 2020
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Instead of working on the (great) comments in the reviews, I went ahead =
and added permissions for dynamic resources.  Enjoy:

Html:           =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-09.html
Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-core-ace-aif-09
Diff:           =
https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-core-ace-aif-09.txt

(Yes, the comments are next, I just had to dump the results of recent =
discussions into the draft first.  EBRAINFULL)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Mon Jun 29 15:45:49 2020
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Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 15:45:37 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize.all@ietf.org, ace@ietf.org
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Hi Olaf,

Thanks for the updated -11!
Some minor replies below, though in general the proposals look good.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 02:38:32PM +0200, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
> Hi Benjamin,
> 
> Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:
> 
> > Thanks!  I think we will probably need an -11 fairly soon, though, given
> > the remaining comments I have.
> 
> We have just submitted -11 that addresses your comments. See below for
> detailed responses. I have trimmed-down the email thread context a bit
> to improved readability and focus on the recent comments.
> 
> > A couple general remarks looking at the -09-to-10 diff (not all new in
> > the -10, so I guess I missed it the first time around):
> >
> > In Section 3.2.1, I suggest applying:
> >
> > OLD:
> >   [...] If CBOR web tokens [RFC8392] are used as recommended in
> >   [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz] [...]
> >
> > NEW:
> >   [...] If CBOR web tokens [RFC8392] are used (as recommended in
> >   [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz]) [...]
> >
> > Making this a parenthetical statement makes it clear that the
> > conditional for "keys MUST be encoded" is "CWT are used" and separate
> > from the recommendation to do so.
> 
> Done
> 
> > Also in 3.2.1, we now have these two statements in fairly close
> > proximity:
> >
> >    [RFC8747].  The resource server MUST use its own raw public key in
> >    the DTLS handshake with the client.  If the resource server has
> >    several raw public keys, it must already know which key it is
> >    supposed to use with this client.  How this is achieved is not part
> >    of this profile.
> >
> >    The resource server MUST use the keying material that the
> >    authorizations server has specified in the "cnf" parameter in the
> >    access token for the DTLS handshake with the client.  Thus, the
> >
> > which seems a bit redundant and potentially in conflict.  Can we
> > consolidate this requirement a bit?
> 
> Yes, the wording is a bit confusing. The following proposal states
> the intention more clearly, I think:
> 
> NEW: 
> 
>     The raw public key used in the DTLS handshake with the client MUST
>     belong to the resource server. If the resource server has several

(Someone might complain that this first sentence is tautological, but I
think we should leave it for now.)

>     raw public keys, it needs to determine which key to use. The
>     authorization server can help with this decision by including a
>     `cnf` parameter in the access token that is associated with this
>     communication.  In this case, the resource server MUST use the
>     information from the `cnf` field to select the proper keying
>     material.
> 
> > In Section 3.3:
> >
> >    To convey the same secret to the resource server, the authorization
> >    server either includes it directly in the access token by means of
> >    the "cnf" claim or it provides sufficient information to enable the
> >    resource server to derive the key from the access token using key
> >    derivation.
> >
> > This text could be read as prohibiting using token introspection to
> > obtain the C/RS shared key (if I remember correctly about "claim" being
> > a CWT thing and not a more generic term for a parameter associated with
> > a token).  I don't think that's the intent, so perhaps a wording tweak
> > is in order.
> 
> This now has been changed to:
> 
> NEW:
> 
>     To convey the same secret to the resource server, the
>     authorization server can include it directly in the access token
>     by means of the `cnf` claim or provide sufficient information to
>     enable the resource server to derive the shared secret from the
>     access token. As an alternative, the resource server MAY use token
>     introspection to retrieve the keying material for this access
>     token directly from the authorization server.
> 
> > In Section 3.3.1:
> >
> >    If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
> >    contains a "psk_identity" with a length greater than zero, it MUST
> >    process the contents of the "psk_identity" field as access token that
> >    is stored with the authorization information endpoint, before
> >    continuing the DTLS handshake.  If the contents of the "psk_identity"
> >    do not yield a valid access token for the requesting client, the
> >    resource server aborts the DTLS handshake with an "illegal_parameter"
> >    alert.
> >
> > The way this was reworded seems to imply that any "psk_identity" with
> > positive length is a full access token (as would have been uploaded to
> > the authz-info endpoint), which prevents the case previously described
> > where the identity is just a COSE_Key with the 'kid' from "rs_cnf".  So
> > I think we still need some kind of description of two potential
> > interpretations of the "psk_identity".
> 
> Yes, this is misleading. We have changed it as follows to indicate the
> two (non-exclusive) processing steps:
> 
> OLD:
>    If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
>    contains a `psk_identity` with a length greater than zero, it MUST
>    process the contents of the `psk_identity` field as access token
>    that is stored with the authorization information endpoint, before
>    continuing the DTLS handshake. If the contents of the
>    `psk_identity` do not yield a valid access token for the requesting
>    client, the resource server aborts the DTLS handshake with an
>    `illegal_parameter` alert.
> 
> NEW:
> 
>    If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
>    contains a `psk_identity` with a length greater than zero, it MUST
>    parse the contents of the `psk_identity` field as CBOR data
>    structure and process the contents as following:
> 
>       * If the data contains a `cnf` field with a `COSE_Key` structure
>         with a `kid`, the resource server continues the DTLS handshake
>         with the stored key associated with this kid.

Maybe "corresponding" or "associated" stored key, since there is not
necessarily a unique kid/key relationship?

>       * If the data comprises additional CWT information, this
>         information must be stored as access token for this DTLS

nit: "as an"

>         association before continuing with the DTLS handshake.
> 
>    If the contents of the `psk_identity` do not yield sufficient
>    information to select a valid access token for the requesting
>    client, the resource server aborts the DTLS handshake with an
>    `illegal_parameter` alert.
> 
> > In section 3.4, we updated the text about "a common understanding"
> > between RS and AS about how access tokens are ordered, and reworded the
> > text about checking authorization on every request.  I think we could
> > say a little bit more about how there is not a strict guarantee of
> > processing order for requests and authorization updates, so requests
> > that occur around the time of an authorization update might be processed
> > using either the old or new authorization rules.  Even just referencing
> > Section 7.2 would be enough.
> 
> This now has been clarified as follows, introducing another forward
> reference:
> 
> OLD:
>     The client MUST ascertain that its keying material is still valid
>     before sending a request or processing a response.  If the client
>     gets an error response
> 
> NEW:
> 
>     The client MUST ascertain that its keying material is still valid
>     before sending a request or processing a response. If the client
>     recently has updated the access token (see Section 4), it must be
>     prepared that its request is still handled according to the
>     previous authorization rules as there is no strict ordering
>     between access token uploads and resource access messages. See
>     also Section 7.2 for a discussion of access token
>     processing.
> 
> > (more inline)
> >
> >> > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 06:20:38PM +0200, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
> >> >> Ben,
> >> >> 
> >> >> Thanks again for the thorough review of the ACE DTLS profile and my
> >> >> sincere apologies for the long time it took to process. Please find our
> >> >> comments inline. As this comprises a lot of changes, the proposed text
> >> >> already has been included in the Editor's copy [1].  Our proposals for
> >> >> new text are in the section-by-section comments.
> >> >> 
> >> >> [1] https://ace-wg.github.io/ace-dtls-profile/
> >> >> 
> >> >> Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:
> >> >> 
> >> >> > Hi all,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Some high-level remarks before delving into the section-by-section
> >> >> > comments:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This document is pretty clearly DTLS 1.2-specific -- it talks about
> >> >> > particular protocol messages, message fields, and cipher suites that
> >> >> > simply do not apply to DTLS 1.3.  In order to use this profile with DTLS
> >> >> > 1.3, we'd need to specify the analogous behavior/requirements to these
> >> >> > (including standalone signature schemes and key-exchange groups, which
> >> >> > are now both separately negotiated from the cipher suite).
> >> >> > Given that DTLS 1.3 is past WGLC and only a few documents behind this
> >> >> > one in my review queue, it seems fairly prudent to spend some time and
> >> >> > cover how DTLS 1.3 would work here, since otherwise this document will
> >> >> > become stale shortly after (or even before!) its publication as an RFC.
> >
> > Is anyone working on a DTLS 1.3 version?
> 
> Steffi and I have been in the process of starting to take a closer look :-)

I'm happy to hear it :)

> 
> >> > I think we need to give some guidance about what the semantics are if/when
> >> > it happens.  My inclination would be to say that DTLS resumption can be
> >> > used to amortize the cost of a handshake, but DTLS 1.2 resumption does not
> >> > provide forward secrecy and also does not provide an opportunity for the
> >> > client to prove possession of the PoP key, so servers will want to
> >> > periodically force a full handshake according to their authentication
> >> > requirements.  I'd also be inclined to forbid renegotiation entirely.
> >> 
> >> True, especially because RFC 7925 requires resumption to be
> >> implemented. The security considerations now advise against session
> >> resumptions and renegotiation as you have suggested. The Security
> >> Considerations section now has been structured in sub-sections for
> >> clarity.
> >
> > The discussion in the -10 is reasonable (and the stated motivation of
> > having a fresh proof of possession is fairly compelling), though to be
> > clear, my initial "inclination" above was just to forbid renegotiation
> > but allow resumption.
> 
> Sorry, I had misinterpreted that. Actually, I am not entirely
> convinced by the "fresh PoP" argument anymore. When the access token
> made its way to the server through the client, there is no significant
> difference between keeping the DTLS session open and session
> resumption. Additional security against breaching the encryption of
> the (encrypted part of the) access token would be provided only by token
> introspection. But in that case, session resumption again would not
> harm security as we do not need to store precious information in the
> session ticket.
> 
> Are you in favor of allowing session resumption?

I think it would be safe to allow resumption, but I personally am
indifferent about whether or not we should do so.

> >> >> NEW:
> >> >> 
> >> >>     The authorization server must ascertain that the keying material
> >> >>     for the client that it provides to the resource server actually is
> >> >>     associated with this client.  Malicious clients may hand over
> >> >>     access tokens containing their own access permissions to other
> >> >>     entities. This problem cannot be completely
> >> >>     eliminated. Nevertheless, in RPK mode it should not be possible
> >> >>     for clients to request access tokens for arbitrary public keys,
> >> >>     since that would allow the client to relay tokens without the need
> >> >>     to share its own credentials with others. The authorization server
> >> >
> >> > I think this sentence could probably be wordsmithed some more, though I
> >> > don't have a concrete proposal at the moment.  It does seem like we might
> >> > want to discuss this scenario more in terms of "identity misbinding" than
> >> > "relay tokens", though.  (We had a SAAG talk at IETF 104 about misbinding
> >> > attacks on device pairing, which is not quite the same, but shares some of
> >> > the concepts.)
> >> 
> >> Okay. This is the only comment I did not yet address in the text. We
> >> might want to keep this in mind for -11.
> >
> > Looking at it again, perhaps:
> >
> > % eliminated. Nevertheless, in RPK mode it should not be possible
> > % for clients to request access tokens for arbitrary public keys: if the
> > % client can cause the AS to issue a token for a public key without
> > % proving possession of the corresponding private key, this allows for
> > % identity misbinding attacks where the issued token is usable by an
> > % entity other than the intended one.  [...]
> 
> Very good, thank you.
> 
> >> >> OLD:
> >> >> 
> >> >>    The response also contains an access token and an "rs_cnf"
> >> >>    parameter containing information about the public key that is used
> >> >>    by the resource server.  AS MUST ascertain that the RPK specified
> >> >>    in "rs_cnf" belongs to the resource server that C wants to
> >> >>    communicate with.
> >> >> 
> >> >> NEW:
> >> >> 
> >> >>    The response also contains an access token with information about
> >> >>    the public key that is used by the resource server. The
> >> >
> >> > This sounds like "the information[...]" is part of the access token; maybe
> >> > "along with"?
> >> 
> >> What is meant here is that the information is contained in the access
> >> token. The misleading part is that the AT contains information about the
> >> client's RPK that the resource server uses to recognize the client in
> >> the subsequent communication.
> >> 
> >> I have changed this sentence to:
> >> 
> >> NEW:
> >> 
> >>   The response also contains an access token with information for the
> >>   resource server about the client's public key.
> >
> > That should help a lot; thanks!
> >
> >> >> >    The fields in the context information "COSE_KDF_Context"
> >> >> >    (Section 11.2 of [RFC8152]) have the following values:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >    o  AlgorithmID = "ACE-CoAP-DTLS-key-derivation"
> >> >> >
> >> >> > RFC 8152 says that these AlgorithmID values come from the COSE
> >> >> > Algorithms registry, which this does not (unless we register it there,
> >> >> > which we don't currently).  Also, since the output is used directly for
> >> >> > DTLS PSK, I don't think the "key-derivation" portion is needed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >    o  PartyUInfo = PartyVInfo = ( null, null, null )
> >> >> >
> >> >> > (8152 seems to prefer "nil" over "null".)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >    o  keyDataLength needs to be defined by the application
> >> >> >
> >> >> >    o  protected MUST be a zero length bstr
> >> >> >
> >> >> >    o  other is a zero length bstr
> >> >> >
> >> >> > (These three are all members of the "SuppPubInfo" field, which is not
> >> >> > very clear from how we include them in the same list as top-level
> >> >> > fields.)
> >> >> 
> >> >> The example now has updated and rephrased according to HKDF usage.
> >> >
> >> > The formatting/discussion looks good, but I'll need to cross-check the data
> >> > structures once the new revision is uploaded.
> >
> > I do like the presentation with HKDF and the structured input to it.
> >
> > However, I think we may have over-corrected w.r.t. key-id uniqueness:
> >
> >    In order to generate a new symmetric key to be used by client and
> >    resource server, the authorization server generates a new key
> >    identifier which MUST be unique among all key identifiers used by the
> >    authorization server.  The authorization server then uses the key
> >
> > I think this requirement for uniqueness global to the AS may be too
> > strong; couldn't key identifiers be reused for different RSes?
> > Having the kid be part of the input to HKDF keyed by a unique AS/RS
> > shared key also helps a great deal to avoid accidental key collisions.
> 
> True, uniqueness for each individual RS would be sufficient:
> 
> OLD:
>    MUST be unique among all key identifiers used by the authorization
>    server.
> 
> NEW:
>    MUST be unique among all key identifiers used by the authorization
>    server for this resource server.
> 
> >    To ensure uniqueness of the derived shared secret, the authorization
> >    server SHOULD generate a sufficiently random kid value and include
> >    the claims "iat" and either "exp" or "exi" in the access token.
> >
> > I don't think I understand the motivation for all these statements (and
> > in fact that they may not be entirely correct).  It is permitted to use
> > the 'info' parameter to HKDF for domain separation, so even having the
> > unique kid mentioned above is enough to ensure a unique derived shared
> > secret (and this holds even if the kid uniqueness requirement is
> > weakendt to be per-RS and not per-AS).  Including "iat", "exp", and/or
> > "exi" also helps to ensure uniqueness and should be recommended, but the
> > interrelationships are not stated well here.  Perhaps:
> >
> > % Use of a unique (per RS) "kid" and the use of a unique per-AS/RS key
> > % derivation IKM as specified above will ensure that the derived key is
> > % not shared across multiple clients.  However, to additionally provide
> > % variation in the derived key across different tokens used by the same
> > % client, it is additionally RECOMMENDED to include the "iat" claim and
> > % either the "exp" or "exi" claims in the access token.
> 
> Okay, changed as suggested.
> 
> >> > Up in Section 3.3 we talk about a case where the AS and RS are assumed to
> >> > share a key derivation key that's used to derive symmetric keys for the RS
> >> > to share with the client.  The KDF input is the IKM and the 'info' (since
> >> > 'salt' is empty), and the IKM is just that same "key derivation key".  So
> >> > the only input to HKDF that changes for different clients (and the same RS)
> >> > is the 'info'.  The 'info', in turn contains a string constant 'type' plus
> >> > the 'kid' and (presumably fixed) output length.  If I'm reading this
> >> > correctly, the 'kid' is the only HKDF input that varies between clients, so
> >> > if the 'kid' was reused for different clients, the AS and RS would derive
> >> > the same symmetric key for those distinct client/RS pairs.  Furthermore,
> >> > since the AS returns the actual symmetric key to the client in the token
> >> > response, that means that the symmetric key is shared by *three* parties
> >> > (vs. just client and RS, ignoring in the count the AS which knows
> >> > everything).  I guess technically this is not the scenario forbidden by the
> >> > core framework (which is to have the same symmetric key used at multiple
> >> > RSes, but it still is bad hygeine and would let one client impersonate the
> >> > other.
> >> >
> >> > In cases not using the KDF, the 'kid' is just a hint to finding the actual
> >> > key, and the actual key is assumed to be constructed uniquely by the AS
> >> > each time.
> >> 
> >> Thank you, this is absolutely true. I have now changed the input for the
> >> key derivation mechanism in the sense of what originally has been
> >> specified in draft-gerdes-ace-dcaf-authorize, i.e., including the access
> >> token as input to the KDF. This enables the authorization server to
> >> include a certain amount of unifying attributes in the info parameter,
> >> esp. with a randomly generated kid and the iat claim. I would have loved
> >> to have a claim type for carrying a nonce in the access token…
> >
> > Hmm, we say that "access_token is the decrypted access_token as
> > transferred from the AS to the RS", but it's supposed to be a CBOR map;
> > is this intended to just be the claims set from the CWT?  If so, we
> > should say that.
> 
> I do not see the difference: The access token is comprised of a CWT
> claim set which is represented on the wire as a CBOR map. 

The Message of the CWT is a CBOR map, but the access token itself is not
just the Message, and "the decrypted access_token" is perhaps a bit
informal of language for what we wang.  (I think I was a bit confused when
I wrote the original comment, though, as for JWT the structure is a bit
different and the Claims Set a much more distinct object.)

> Unfortunately, this is not explained in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params.
> 
> To avoid confusion here, the following clarification has been added:
> 
> NEW:
> 
>     The decrypted access token usually denotes a CWT claim set
>     represented as CBOR map.

Thanks.

> >> As there is no guidance so far on how permission sets in access tokens
> >> are to be combined properly it seems to be wise at least to advise
> >> against.
> >
> > I agree that's the right advice to give; what is less clear to me is
> > whether this document needs to be the place to give that advice (vs. the
> > framework doing so).  But I don't have a strong stance on this at the
> > moment, and am happy to move forward with the text as-is if you want.
> 
> Okay, to avoid last-minute changes to the framework document I leave
> it as it is.
> 
> >> >> > I think RFCs 7250, 7251, and 8422 need to be normative.
> >> >> 
> >> >> done
> >> 
> >> Actually, I had to revert this for the informational RFC 7251 as the
> >> idnits tool did not allow the downref from normative.
> >
> > idnits is just a tool to raise potential issues that a human can look
> > at and think about; in this case, idnits is wrong: 7251 is listed at
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/downref/ and is perfectly fine to use
> > as a normative reference.
> 
> Oh, sorry, I was not aware of that. This now has been reverted.

Thanks for all the updates!

I did have just a few nits from looking at the diff from -09 to -11; we can
probably address those along with other IETF LC feedback (though fixing
them earlier is not discouraged).

Section 3.2

   An example access token response from the authorization to the client
   is depicted in Figure 4.  Here, the contents of the "access_token"

nit: s/authorization/authorization server/

Section 3.3

I guess if we want the AS and RS to get the same key-derivation output we
need to say that the encoding for 'L' is the minimum-length encoding

Section 7

   valid access tokens.  The protection of access tokens that are stored
   in the authorization information endpoint depends on the keying
   material that is used between the authorization server and the
   resource server: The resource server must ensure that it processes
   only access tokens that are encrypted and integrity-protected by an
   authorization server that is authorized to provide access tokens for
   the resource server.

We may want to put "encrypted and" in parentheses, as we don't require the
use of encrypted CWTs.

Section 7.1

nit: s/renogiation/renegotiation/

-Ben


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From: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize.all@ietf.org,  ace@ietf.org
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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 12:19:41 +0200
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Hi Ben,

Thank you for the quick followup and another set of very useful
comments. I have created a working copy with updates as listed
inline. If you want me to, I can submit these as -12.

Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:

> Hi Olaf,
>
> Thanks for the updated -11!
> Some minor replies below, though in general the proposals look good.
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 02:38:32PM +0200, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
>> Hi Benjamin,
>>=20
>> Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:
>>=20
>> > Thanks!  I think we will probably need an -11 fairly soon, though, giv=
en
>> > the remaining comments I have.
>>=20
>> We have just submitted -11 that addresses your comments. See below for
>> detailed responses. I have trimmed-down the email thread context a bit
>> to improved readability and focus on the recent comments.
>>=20
>> > A couple general remarks looking at the -09-to-10 diff (not all new in
>> > the -10, so I guess I missed it the first time around):
>> >
>> > In Section 3.2.1, I suggest applying:
>> >
>> > OLD:
>> >   [...] If CBOR web tokens [RFC8392] are used as recommended in
>> >   [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz] [...]
>> >
>> > NEW:
>> >   [...] If CBOR web tokens [RFC8392] are used (as recommended in
>> >   [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz]) [...]
>> >
>> > Making this a parenthetical statement makes it clear that the
>> > conditional for "keys MUST be encoded" is "CWT are used" and separate
>> > from the recommendation to do so.
>>=20
>> Done
>>=20
>> > Also in 3.2.1, we now have these two statements in fairly close
>> > proximity:
>> >
>> >    [RFC8747].  The resource server MUST use its own raw public key in
>> >    the DTLS handshake with the client.  If the resource server has
>> >    several raw public keys, it must already know which key it is
>> >    supposed to use with this client.  How this is achieved is not part
>> >    of this profile.
>> >
>> >    The resource server MUST use the keying material that the
>> >    authorizations server has specified in the "cnf" parameter in the
>> >    access token for the DTLS handshake with the client.  Thus, the
>> >
>> > which seems a bit redundant and potentially in conflict.  Can we
>> > consolidate this requirement a bit?
>>=20
>> Yes, the wording is a bit confusing. The following proposal states
>> the intention more clearly, I think:
>>=20
>> NEW:=20
>>=20
>>     The raw public key used in the DTLS handshake with the client MUST
>>     belong to the resource server. If the resource server has several
>
> (Someone might complain that this first sentence is tautological, but I
> think we should leave it for now.)

Okay.

>> OLD:
>>    If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
>>    contains a `psk_identity` with a length greater than zero, it MUST
>>    process the contents of the `psk_identity` field as access token
>>    that is stored with the authorization information endpoint, before
>>    continuing the DTLS handshake. If the contents of the
>>    `psk_identity` do not yield a valid access token for the requesting
>>    client, the resource server aborts the DTLS handshake with an
>>    `illegal_parameter` alert.
>>=20
>> NEW:
>>=20
>>    If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
>>    contains a `psk_identity` with a length greater than zero, it MUST
>>    parse the contents of the `psk_identity` field as CBOR data
>>    structure and process the contents as following:
>>=20
>>       * If the data contains a `cnf` field with a `COSE_Key` structure
>>         with a `kid`, the resource server continues the DTLS handshake
>>         with the stored key associated with this kid.
>
> Maybe "corresponding" or "associated" stored key, since there is not
> necessarily a unique kid/key relationship?

Hm, I was hoping that this is sufficiently expressed by "the stored
key associated with this kid". My assumption is that we have a mapping
from kids to keys where a kid is mapped to at most one key. (Usually,
this would be a bijection but there might be cases where a kid is known
and the key is not yet known or has expired.

How about this:

OLD:

     continues the DTLS handshake with the stored key associated with
     this kid.

NEW:

     continues the DTLS handshake with the associated key that corresponds
     to this kid.

>>       * If the data comprises additional CWT information, this
>>         information must be stored as access token for this DTLS
>
> nit: "as an"

Fixed, thanks!

>> >> > I think we need to give some guidance about what the semantics are =
if/when
>> >> > it happens.  My inclination would be to say that DTLS resumption ca=
n be
>> >> > used to amortize the cost of a handshake, but DTLS 1.2 resumption d=
oes not
>> >> > provide forward secrecy and also does not provide an opportunity fo=
r the
>> >> > client to prove possession of the PoP key, so servers will want to
>> >> > periodically force a full handshake according to their authenticati=
on
>> >> > requirements.  I'd also be inclined to forbid renegotiation entirel=
y.
>> >>=20
>> >> True, especially because RFC 7925 requires resumption to be
>> >> implemented. The security considerations now advise against session
>> >> resumptions and renegotiation as you have suggested. The Security
>> >> Considerations section now has been structured in sub-sections for
>> >> clarity.
>> >
>> > The discussion in the -10 is reasonable (and the stated motivation of
>> > having a fresh proof of possession is fairly compelling), though to be
>> > clear, my initial "inclination" above was just to forbid renegotiation
>> > but allow resumption.
>>=20
>> Sorry, I had misinterpreted that. Actually, I am not entirely
>> convinced by the "fresh PoP" argument anymore. When the access token
>> made its way to the server through the client, there is no significant
>> difference between keeping the DTLS session open and session
>> resumption. Additional security against breaching the encryption of
>> the (encrypted part of the) access token would be provided only by token
>> introspection. But in that case, session resumption again would not
>> harm security as we do not need to store precious information in the
>> session ticket.
>>=20
>> Are you in favor of allowing session resumption?
>
> I think it would be safe to allow resumption, but I personally am
> indifferent about whether or not we should do so.

Okay. Currently, the section has a discussion that concludes in a NOT
RECOMMENDED. If someone argues for generally allowing session resumption
we would not have to do much more than just removing that conclusion.

>> >> > Up in Section 3.3 we talk about a case where the AS and RS are assu=
med to
>> >> > share a key derivation key that's used to derive symmetric keys for=
 the RS
>> >> > to share with the client.  The KDF input is the IKM and the 'info' =
(since
>> >> > 'salt' is empty), and the IKM is just that same "key derivation key=
".  So
>> >> > the only input to HKDF that changes for different clients (and the =
same RS)
>> >> > is the 'info'.  The 'info', in turn contains a string constant 'typ=
e' plus
>> >> > the 'kid' and (presumably fixed) output length.  If I'm reading this
>> >> > correctly, the 'kid' is the only HKDF input that varies between cli=
ents, so
>> >> > if the 'kid' was reused for different clients, the AS and RS would =
derive
>> >> > the same symmetric key for those distinct client/RS pairs.  Further=
more,
>> >> > since the AS returns the actual symmetric key to the client in the =
token
>> >> > response, that means that the symmetric key is shared by *three* pa=
rties
>> >> > (vs. just client and RS, ignoring in the count the AS which knows
>> >> > everything).  I guess technically this is not the scenario forbidde=
n by the
>> >> > core framework (which is to have the same symmetric key used at mul=
tiple
>> >> > RSes, but it still is bad hygeine and would let one client imperson=
ate the
>> >> > other.
>> >> >
>> >> > In cases not using the KDF, the 'kid' is just a hint to finding the=
 actual
>> >> > key, and the actual key is assumed to be constructed uniquely by th=
e AS
>> >> > each time.
>> >>=20
>> >> Thank you, this is absolutely true. I have now changed the input for =
the
>> >> key derivation mechanism in the sense of what originally has been
>> >> specified in draft-gerdes-ace-dcaf-authorize, i.e., including the acc=
ess
>> >> token as input to the KDF. This enables the authorization server to
>> >> include a certain amount of unifying attributes in the info parameter,
>> >> esp. with a randomly generated kid and the iat claim. I would have lo=
ved
>> >> to have a claim type for carrying a nonce in the access token=E2=80=A6
>> >
>> > Hmm, we say that "access_token is the decrypted access_token as
>> > transferred from the AS to the RS", but it's supposed to be a CBOR map;
>> > is this intended to just be the claims set from the CWT?  If so, we
>> > should say that.
>>=20
>> I do not see the difference: The access token is comprised of a CWT
>> claim set which is represented on the wire as a CBOR map.=20
>
> The Message of the CWT is a CBOR map, but the access token itself is not
> just the Message, and "the decrypted access_token" is perhaps a bit
> informal of language for what we wang.  (I think I was a bit confused when
> I wrote the original comment, though, as for JWT the structure is a bit
> different and the Claims Set a much more distinct object.)

Maybe this is a bit more specific without adding a more detailed
explanation of how this is supposed to work below the bullet list:

OLD:

   access_token is the decrypted access_token as transferred from the
   authorization server to the resource server.

NEW:

    access_token is the decrypted content of the access_token field
    as transferred from the authorization server to the resource
    server.

>> Unfortunately, this is not explained in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params.
>>=20
>> To avoid confusion here, the following clarification has been added:
>>=20
>> NEW:
>>=20
>>     The decrypted access token usually denotes a CWT claim set
>>     represented as CBOR map.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> >> As there is no guidance so far on how permission sets in access tokens
>> >> are to be combined properly it seems to be wise at least to advise
>> >> against.
>> >
>> > I agree that's the right advice to give; what is less clear to me is
>> > whether this document needs to be the place to give that advice (vs. t=
he
>> > framework doing so).  But I don't have a strong stance on this at the
>> > moment, and am happy to move forward with the text as-is if you want.
>>=20
>> Okay, to avoid last-minute changes to the framework document I leave
>> it as it is.
>>=20
>> >> >> > I think RFCs 7250, 7251, and 8422 need to be normative.
>> >> >>=20
>> >> >> done
>> >>=20
>> >> Actually, I had to revert this for the informational RFC 7251 as the
>> >> idnits tool did not allow the downref from normative.
>> >
>> > idnits is just a tool to raise potential issues that a human can look
>> > at and think about; in this case, idnits is wrong: 7251 is listed at
>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/downref/ and is perfectly fine to use
>> > as a normative reference.
>>=20
>> Oh, sorry, I was not aware of that. This now has been reverted.
>
> Thanks for all the updates!
>
> I did have just a few nits from looking at the diff from -09 to -11; we c=
an
> probably address those along with other IETF LC feedback (though fixing
> them earlier is not discouraged).

That sounds as if shipping -12 now would be okay :-)

> Section 3.2
>
>    An example access token response from the authorization to the client
>    is depicted in Figure 4.  Here, the contents of the "access_token"
>
> nit: s/authorization/authorization server/

Fixed, thanks!

> Section 3.3
>
> I guess if we want the AS and RS to get the same key-derivation output we
> need to say that the encoding for 'L' is the minimum-length encoding

Good point. As this is also true for the length encoding of the text
string in the type field, I have added the following clarification:

NEW:

   All CBOR data types are encoded in canonical CBOR as defined in
   Section 3.9 of {{RFC7049}}. This implies in particular that the
   `type` and `L` components use the minimum length encoding.


(This unfortunately imposes additional restrictions on the
access_token which would not be required for key derivation. But IIRC
there has been some implicit agreement that the access_token should be
encoded in canonical CBOR as well.

> Section 7
>
>    valid access tokens.  The protection of access tokens that are stored
>    in the authorization information endpoint depends on the keying
>    material that is used between the authorization server and the
>    resource server: The resource server must ensure that it processes
>    only access tokens that are encrypted and integrity-protected by an
>    authorization server that is authorized to provide access tokens for
>    the resource server.
>
> We may want to put "encrypted and" in parentheses, as we don't require the
> use of encrypted CWTs.

Done. However, the only situation where encryption is not a MUST is in
case of key derivation.

> Section 7.1
>
> nit: s/renogiation/renegotiation/

Thanks. I had to read this word several times to spot the difference :-)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe
Olaf


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On 2020-06-30, at 12:19, Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> NEW:
>=20
>   All CBOR data types are encoded in canonical CBOR as defined in
>   Section 3.9 of {{RFC7049}}. This implies in particular that the
>   `type` and `L` components use the minimum length encoding

Note that 7049bis, which has been submitted to IESG already, all but =
deprecates this and replaces this with =E2=80=9Cdeterministic =
encoding=E2=80=9D.  There is only one actual technical change, which is =
about map ordering.  Also, please check whether =E2=80=9Cpreferred =
encoding=E2=80=9D would actually be enough.

I would generally prefer to avoid the need for deterministic/canonical =
encoding =E2=80=94 is there really a need to re-encode the token?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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In trying to formalize a policy for the RD testing, I ended up with
something that I think needs to be noted in this section.  There is a
difference between the following statements:

Access is granted to resources created by the client.
Access is granted to resources that could have been created by the client.

The first is what the text seems to cover.  This make sense in for the
coffeepot where only the person who created the order should be able to
cancel it.  (Well maybe an administrator might need to as well.)  However it
does not cover the case where an installer created a number of entries in
the RD.  A QA person then comes through to make sure the installation was
done correctly.  When he finds a problem, the first statement requires that
the original installer come out to fix it while the second statement allows
the QA person to make the fix.

Jim



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On 2020-06-30, at 16:43, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
>=20
> In trying to formalize a policy for the RD testing, I ended up with
> something that I think needs to be noted in this section.  There is a
> difference between the following statements:
>=20
> Access is granted to resources created by the client.
> Access is granted to resources that could have been created by the =
client.
>=20
> The first is what the text seems to cover.  This make sense in for the
> coffeepot where only the person who created the order should be able =
to
> cancel it.  (Well maybe an administrator might need to as well.)  =
However it
> does not cover the case where an installer created a number of entries =
in
> the RD.  A QA person then comes through to make sure the installation =
was
> done correctly.  When he finds a problem, the first statement requires =
that
> the original installer come out to fix it while the second statement =
allows
> the QA person to make the fix.

Hi Jim,

interesting.  I was thinking about #1 =E2=80=94 I can make a coffee, I =
can cancel making it, you can make a coffee, but you can=E2=80=99t =
cancel my coffee.
Or delete my RD entry, etc.  So making the resource confers ownership =
(really: a separate set of permission bits) that is bound to the =
subject.

In my view of how permission systems usually work, the other alternative =
requires creating a group.  The inherited permission would then be =
attached to the group.
Since AIF is about capability lists, not about subject identities, I =
think we are covered =E2=80=94 just have the capability list on the =
group.

NFSv4 permissions probably also have a way to handle this kind of =
inheritance, but I=E2=80=99ll not have time to look that up today...

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 04:21:34PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-06-30, at 12:19, Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org> wrote:
> > 
> > NEW:
> > 
> >   All CBOR data types are encoded in canonical CBOR as defined in
> >   Section 3.9 of {{RFC7049}}. This implies in particular that the
> >   `type` and `L` components use the minimum length encoding
> 
> Note that 7049bis, which has been submitted to IESG already, all but deprecates this and replaces this with “deterministic encoding”.  There is only one actual technical change, which is about map ordering.  Also, please check whether “preferred encoding” would actually be enough.
> 
> I would generally prefer to avoid the need for deterministic/canonical encoding — is there really a need to re-encode the token?

My original comment was in the context of a novel data structure being used
as HKDF input, which has 'type' and 'L' fields unrelated to any preexisting
token.  Using the 'access_token' map as transmitted would be helpful, but
is not sufficient.

-Ben


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From: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: ace@ietf.org, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize.all@ietf.org
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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 20:16:59 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ace] AD review of draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-09
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Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> writes:

> On 2020-06-30, at 12:19, Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> NEW:
>>=20
>>   All CBOR data types are encoded in canonical CBOR as defined in
>>   Section 3.9 of {{RFC7049}}. This implies in particular that the
>>   `type` and `L` components use the minimum length encoding
>
> Note that 7049bis, which has been submitted to IESG already, all but
> deprecates this and replaces this with =E2=80=9Cdeterministic encoding=E2=
=80=9D.
> There is only one actual technical change, which is about map
> ordering.  Also, please check whether =E2=80=9Cpreferred encoding=E2=80=
=9D would
> actually be enough.
>
> I would generally prefer to avoid the need for deterministic/canonical
> encoding =E2=80=94 is there really a need to re-encode the token?

There is no need to re-encode the token, and I do not expect that this
would happen if the authorization server has used a finite length.

I am more than happy to get rid of the ordering constraints on CBOR maps
but I am not sure about referencing the -bis. Can we do that at this
stage?

Note: Up to now, we could even do without a normative reference to RFC 7049.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe
Olaf


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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] AD review of draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-09
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>>=20
>> I would generally prefer to avoid the need for =
deterministic/canonical
>> encoding =E2=80=94 is there really a need to re-encode the token?
>=20
> There is no need to re-encode the token, and I do not expect that this
> would happen if the authorization server has used a finite length.

So would we be better off with:


         info =3D [
           type : tstr,
           L : uint,
           access_token: bytes
         ]

Where access_token is the token in original encoding?  No need to =
re-encode the token then.

> I am more than happy to get rid of the ordering constraints on CBOR =
maps
> but I am not sure about referencing the -bis. Can we do that at this
> stage?

Both documents are in IESG processing, specifically:
dtls-authorize: AD Evaluation::External Party
7049bis: Publication Requested

Potential emergency escape: reference Section 10 of rfc8152bis-struct =
(which is even further along at IESG Evaluation::Revised I-D Needed).

> Note: Up to now, we could even do without a normative reference to RFC =
7049.

Yes, but that=E2=80=99s cheating (indirect normative reference through =
8610).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize.all@ietf.org
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 21:11:07 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ace] AD review of draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-09
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Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> writes:

>>>=20
>>> I would generally prefer to avoid the need for deterministic/canonical
>>> encoding =E2=80=94 is there really a need to re-encode the token?
>>=20
>> There is no need to re-encode the token, and I do not expect that this
>> would happen if the authorization server has used a finite length.
>
> So would we be better off with:
>
>
>          info =3D [
>            type : tstr,
>            L : uint,
>            access_token: bytes
>          ]
>
> Where access_token is the token in original encoding?  No need to re-enco=
de the token then.

That is what I wanted to hear.

>> I am more than happy to get rid of the ordering constraints on CBOR maps
>> but I am not sure about referencing the -bis. Can we do that at this
>> stage?
>
> Both documents are in IESG processing, specifically:
> dtls-authorize: AD Evaluation::External Party
> 7049bis: Publication Requested

Looking at the deterministic encoding (Section 4.2 of
draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-14), I am happy referencing that instead of
canonical CBOR. Any objections?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe
Olaf


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To: 'Carsten Bormann' <cabo@tzi.org>
CC: <draft-bormann-core-ace-aif@ietf.org>, <ace@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ace] Extended REST model comment
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 8:35 AM
> To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> Cc: draft-bormann-core-ace-aif@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] Extended REST model comment
>=20
> On 2020-06-30, at 16:43, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
> >
> > In trying to formalize a policy for the RD testing, I ended up with
> > something that I think needs to be noted in this section.  There is =
a
> > difference between the following statements:
> >
> > Access is granted to resources created by the client.
> > Access is granted to resources that could have been created by the =
client.
> >
> > The first is what the text seems to cover.  This make sense in for =
the
> > coffeepot where only the person who created the order should be able
> > to cancel it.  (Well maybe an administrator might need to as well.)
> > However it does not cover the case where an installer created a =
number
> > of entries in the RD.  A QA person then comes through to make sure =
the
> > installation was done correctly.  When he finds a problem, the first
> > statement requires that the original installer come out to fix it
> > while the second statement allows the QA person to make the fix.
>=20
> Hi Jim,
>=20
> interesting.  I was thinking about #1 =E2=80=94 I can make a coffee, I =
can cancel
> making it, you can make a coffee, but you can=E2=80=99t cancel my =
coffee.
> Or delete my RD entry, etc.  So making the resource confers ownership =
(really:
> a separate set of permission bits) that is bound to the subject.
>=20
> In my view of how permission systems usually work, the other =
alternative
> requires creating a group.  The inherited permission would then be =
attached to
> the group.
> Since AIF is about capability lists, not about subject identities, I =
think we are
> covered =E2=80=94 just have the capability list on the group.

[JLS] I would agree that there is no need to make any changes in the AIF =
structure.  I would just like to see some text discussing that policy =
can enforce this in either way.

Jim

>=20
> NFSv4 permissions probably also have a way to handle this kind of =
inheritance,
> but I=E2=80=99ll not have time to look that up today...
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 9:25 AM
> To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
> Cc: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>; draft-ietf-ace-dtls-
> authorize.all@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ace] AD review of draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-09
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 04:21:34PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> > On 2020-06-30, at 12:19, Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > NEW:
> > >
> > >   All CBOR data types are encoded in canonical CBOR as defined in
> > >   Section 3.9 of {{RFC7049}}. This implies in particular that the
> > >   `type` and `L` components use the minimum length encoding
> >
> > Note that 7049bis, which has been submitted to IESG already, all but
> deprecates this and replaces this with =E2=80=9Cdeterministic =
encoding=E2=80=9D.  There is only
> one actual technical change, which is about map ordering.  Also, =
please check
> whether =E2=80=9Cpreferred encoding=E2=80=9D would actually be enough.
> >
> > I would generally prefer to avoid the need for =
deterministic/canonical
> encoding =E2=80=94 is there really a need to re-encode the token?
>=20
> My original comment was in the context of a novel data structure being =
used as
> HKDF input, which has 'type' and 'L' fields unrelated to any =
preexisting token.
> Using the 'access_token' map as transmitted would be helpful, but is =
not
> sufficient.

If you are not doing a re-encoding of the token, then I believe that =
preferred serialization and deterministic serialization are going to =
generate the same answer.  With the map being used then this is not =
true, and it is also true that the change in map ordering will hit this. =
 This is a piece of the document that I have never implemented because I =
just don't believe that this option is a reasonable thing to require =
being done so I missed the fact that the original encoded token is not =
being used. =20

There is a possible DOS attack by a MITM changing the encoding on the =
token since it is not protected when posted to the RS.  If this is going =
to be changed, I would say use the binary string encoding from the bstr =
of the inner most COSE wrapping layer as the input to minimize this.

Jim


>=20
> -Ben


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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 18:19:23 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Olaf Bergmann <bergmann@tzi.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize.all@ietf.org, ace@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Ace] AD review of draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-09
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Hi Olaf,

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:19:41PM +0200, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
> Hi Ben,
> 
> Thank you for the quick followup and another set of very useful
> comments. I have created a working copy with updates as listed
> inline. If you want me to, I can submit these as -12.

If it's easy for you, please go ahead.
Inline.

> Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:
> 
> > Hi Olaf,
> >
> > Thanks for the updated -11!
> > Some minor replies below, though in general the proposals look good.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 02:38:32PM +0200, Olaf Bergmann wrote:
> >> Hi Benjamin,
> >> 
> >> Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> writes:
> >> 
> >> > Thanks!  I think we will probably need an -11 fairly soon, though, given
> >> > the remaining comments I have.
> >> 
> >> We have just submitted -11 that addresses your comments. See below for
> >> detailed responses. I have trimmed-down the email thread context a bit
> >> to improved readability and focus on the recent comments.
> >> 
> >> > A couple general remarks looking at the -09-to-10 diff (not all new in
> >> > the -10, so I guess I missed it the first time around):
> >> >
> >> > In Section 3.2.1, I suggest applying:
> >> >
> >> > OLD:
> >> >   [...] If CBOR web tokens [RFC8392] are used as recommended in
> >> >   [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz] [...]
> >> >
> >> > NEW:
> >> >   [...] If CBOR web tokens [RFC8392] are used (as recommended in
> >> >   [I-D.ietf-ace-oauth-authz]) [...]
> >> >
> >> > Making this a parenthetical statement makes it clear that the
> >> > conditional for "keys MUST be encoded" is "CWT are used" and separate
> >> > from the recommendation to do so.
> >> 
> >> Done
> >> 
> >> > Also in 3.2.1, we now have these two statements in fairly close
> >> > proximity:
> >> >
> >> >    [RFC8747].  The resource server MUST use its own raw public key in
> >> >    the DTLS handshake with the client.  If the resource server has
> >> >    several raw public keys, it must already know which key it is
> >> >    supposed to use with this client.  How this is achieved is not part
> >> >    of this profile.
> >> >
> >> >    The resource server MUST use the keying material that the
> >> >    authorizations server has specified in the "cnf" parameter in the
> >> >    access token for the DTLS handshake with the client.  Thus, the
> >> >
> >> > which seems a bit redundant and potentially in conflict.  Can we
> >> > consolidate this requirement a bit?
> >> 
> >> Yes, the wording is a bit confusing. The following proposal states
> >> the intention more clearly, I think:
> >> 
> >> NEW: 
> >> 
> >>     The raw public key used in the DTLS handshake with the client MUST
> >>     belong to the resource server. If the resource server has several
> >
> > (Someone might complain that this first sentence is tautological, but I
> > think we should leave it for now.)
> 
> Okay.
> 
> >> OLD:
> >>    If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
> >>    contains a `psk_identity` with a length greater than zero, it MUST
> >>    process the contents of the `psk_identity` field as access token
> >>    that is stored with the authorization information endpoint, before
> >>    continuing the DTLS handshake. If the contents of the
> >>    `psk_identity` do not yield a valid access token for the requesting
> >>    client, the resource server aborts the DTLS handshake with an
> >>    `illegal_parameter` alert.
> >> 
> >> NEW:
> >> 
> >>    If a resource server receives a ClientKeyExchange message that
> >>    contains a `psk_identity` with a length greater than zero, it MUST
> >>    parse the contents of the `psk_identity` field as CBOR data
> >>    structure and process the contents as following:
> >> 
> >>       * If the data contains a `cnf` field with a `COSE_Key` structure
> >>         with a `kid`, the resource server continues the DTLS handshake
> >>         with the stored key associated with this kid.
> >
> > Maybe "corresponding" or "associated" stored key, since there is not
> > necessarily a unique kid/key relationship?

Rereading, my suggestion of "associated" doesn't make much sense, sorry.

> Hm, I was hoping that this is sufficiently expressed by "the stored
> key associated with this kid". My assumption is that we have a mapping
> from kids to keys where a kid is mapped to at most one key. (Usually,
> this would be a bijection but there might be cases where a kid is known
> and the key is not yet known or has expired.
> 
> How about this:
> 
> OLD:
> 
>      continues the DTLS handshake with the stored key associated with
>      this kid.
> 
> NEW:
> 
>      continues the DTLS handshake with the associated key that corresponds
>      to this kid.

I think this is better, thanks.

> >>       * If the data comprises additional CWT information, this
> >>         information must be stored as access token for this DTLS
> >
> > nit: "as an"
> 
> Fixed, thanks!
> 
> >> >> > I think we need to give some guidance about what the semantics are if/when
> >> >> > it happens.  My inclination would be to say that DTLS resumption can be
> >> >> > used to amortize the cost of a handshake, but DTLS 1.2 resumption does not
> >> >> > provide forward secrecy and also does not provide an opportunity for the
> >> >> > client to prove possession of the PoP key, so servers will want to
> >> >> > periodically force a full handshake according to their authentication
> >> >> > requirements.  I'd also be inclined to forbid renegotiation entirely.
> >> >> 
> >> >> True, especially because RFC 7925 requires resumption to be
> >> >> implemented. The security considerations now advise against session
> >> >> resumptions and renegotiation as you have suggested. The Security
> >> >> Considerations section now has been structured in sub-sections for
> >> >> clarity.
> >> >
> >> > The discussion in the -10 is reasonable (and the stated motivation of
> >> > having a fresh proof of possession is fairly compelling), though to be
> >> > clear, my initial "inclination" above was just to forbid renegotiation
> >> > but allow resumption.
> >> 
> >> Sorry, I had misinterpreted that. Actually, I am not entirely
> >> convinced by the "fresh PoP" argument anymore. When the access token
> >> made its way to the server through the client, there is no significant
> >> difference between keeping the DTLS session open and session
> >> resumption. Additional security against breaching the encryption of
> >> the (encrypted part of the) access token would be provided only by token
> >> introspection. But in that case, session resumption again would not
> >> harm security as we do not need to store precious information in the
> >> session ticket.
> >> 
> >> Are you in favor of allowing session resumption?
> >
> > I think it would be safe to allow resumption, but I personally am
> > indifferent about whether or not we should do so.
> 
> Okay. Currently, the section has a discussion that concludes in a NOT
> RECOMMENDED. If someone argues for generally allowing session resumption
> we would not have to do much more than just removing that conclusion.

Okay.

> >> >> > Up in Section 3.3 we talk about a case where the AS and RS are assumed to
> >> >> > share a key derivation key that's used to derive symmetric keys for the RS
> >> >> > to share with the client.  The KDF input is the IKM and the 'info' (since
> >> >> > 'salt' is empty), and the IKM is just that same "key derivation key".  So
> >> >> > the only input to HKDF that changes for different clients (and the same RS)
> >> >> > is the 'info'.  The 'info', in turn contains a string constant 'type' plus
> >> >> > the 'kid' and (presumably fixed) output length.  If I'm reading this
> >> >> > correctly, the 'kid' is the only HKDF input that varies between clients, so
> >> >> > if the 'kid' was reused for different clients, the AS and RS would derive
> >> >> > the same symmetric key for those distinct client/RS pairs.  Furthermore,
> >> >> > since the AS returns the actual symmetric key to the client in the token
> >> >> > response, that means that the symmetric key is shared by *three* parties
> >> >> > (vs. just client and RS, ignoring in the count the AS which knows
> >> >> > everything).  I guess technically this is not the scenario forbidden by the
> >> >> > core framework (which is to have the same symmetric key used at multiple
> >> >> > RSes, but it still is bad hygeine and would let one client impersonate the
> >> >> > other.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > In cases not using the KDF, the 'kid' is just a hint to finding the actual
> >> >> > key, and the actual key is assumed to be constructed uniquely by the AS
> >> >> > each time.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Thank you, this is absolutely true. I have now changed the input for the
> >> >> key derivation mechanism in the sense of what originally has been
> >> >> specified in draft-gerdes-ace-dcaf-authorize, i.e., including the access
> >> >> token as input to the KDF. This enables the authorization server to
> >> >> include a certain amount of unifying attributes in the info parameter,
> >> >> esp. with a randomly generated kid and the iat claim. I would have loved
> >> >> to have a claim type for carrying a nonce in the access token…
> >> >
> >> > Hmm, we say that "access_token is the decrypted access_token as
> >> > transferred from the AS to the RS", but it's supposed to be a CBOR map;
> >> > is this intended to just be the claims set from the CWT?  If so, we
> >> > should say that.
> >> 
> >> I do not see the difference: The access token is comprised of a CWT
> >> claim set which is represented on the wire as a CBOR map. 
> >
> > The Message of the CWT is a CBOR map, but the access token itself is not
> > just the Message, and "the decrypted access_token" is perhaps a bit
> > informal of language for what we wang.  (I think I was a bit confused when
> > I wrote the original comment, though, as for JWT the structure is a bit
> > different and the Claims Set a much more distinct object.)
> 
> Maybe this is a bit more specific without adding a more detailed
> explanation of how this is supposed to work below the bullet list:
> 
> OLD:
> 
>    access_token is the decrypted access_token as transferred from the
>    authorization server to the resource server.
> 
> NEW:
> 
>     access_token is the decrypted content of the access_token field
>     as transferred from the authorization server to the resource
>     server.

Okay.  (I note also the further discussion downthread regarding "innermost
COSE message" and such.)

> >> Unfortunately, this is not explained in draft-ietf-ace-oauth-params.
> >> 
> >> To avoid confusion here, the following clarification has been added:
> >> 
> >> NEW:
> >> 
> >>     The decrypted access token usually denotes a CWT claim set
> >>     represented as CBOR map.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >> >> As there is no guidance so far on how permission sets in access tokens
> >> >> are to be combined properly it seems to be wise at least to advise
> >> >> against.
> >> >
> >> > I agree that's the right advice to give; what is less clear to me is
> >> > whether this document needs to be the place to give that advice (vs. the
> >> > framework doing so).  But I don't have a strong stance on this at the
> >> > moment, and am happy to move forward with the text as-is if you want.
> >> 
> >> Okay, to avoid last-minute changes to the framework document I leave
> >> it as it is.
> >> 
> >> >> >> > I think RFCs 7250, 7251, and 8422 need to be normative.
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> done
> >> >> 
> >> >> Actually, I had to revert this for the informational RFC 7251 as the
> >> >> idnits tool did not allow the downref from normative.
> >> >
> >> > idnits is just a tool to raise potential issues that a human can look
> >> > at and think about; in this case, idnits is wrong: 7251 is listed at
> >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/downref/ and is perfectly fine to use
> >> > as a normative reference.
> >> 
> >> Oh, sorry, I was not aware of that. This now has been reverted.
> >
> > Thanks for all the updates!
> >
> > I did have just a few nits from looking at the diff from -09 to -11; we can
> > probably address those along with other IETF LC feedback (though fixing
> > them earlier is not discouraged).
> 
> That sounds as if shipping -12 now would be okay :-)

Right :)

> > Section 3.2
> >
> >    An example access token response from the authorization to the client
> >    is depicted in Figure 4.  Here, the contents of the "access_token"
> >
> > nit: s/authorization/authorization server/
> 
> Fixed, thanks!
> 
> > Section 3.3
> >
> > I guess if we want the AS and RS to get the same key-derivation output we
> > need to say that the encoding for 'L' is the minimum-length encoding
> 
> Good point. As this is also true for the length encoding of the text
> string in the type field, I have added the following clarification:
> 
> NEW:
> 
>    All CBOR data types are encoded in canonical CBOR as defined in
>    Section 3.9 of {{RFC7049}}. This implies in particular that the
>    `type` and `L` components use the minimum length encoding.
> 
> 
> (This unfortunately imposes additional restrictions on the
> access_token which would not be required for key derivation. But IIRC
> there has been some implicit agreement that the access_token should be
> encoded in canonical CBOR as well.

[this is handled downthread]

> > Section 7
> >
> >    valid access tokens.  The protection of access tokens that are stored
> >    in the authorization information endpoint depends on the keying
> >    material that is used between the authorization server and the
> >    resource server: The resource server must ensure that it processes
> >    only access tokens that are encrypted and integrity-protected by an
> >    authorization server that is authorized to provide access tokens for
> >    the resource server.
> >
> > We may want to put "encrypted and" in parentheses, as we don't require the
> > use of encrypted CWTs.
> 
> Done. However, the only situation where encryption is not a MUST is in
> case of key derivation.
> 
> > Section 7.1
> >
> > nit: s/renogiation/renegotiation/
> 
> Thanks. I had to read this word several times to spot the difference :-)

:)

Thanks,

Ben

