From nobody Wed Mar 4 01:52:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50F03A0AEE for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 01:52:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V3RJGizAXeAd for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 01:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D08D33A0AE7 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 01:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.67]) by opfednr26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48XTgh2pVMz10Yw; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:52:16 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1583315536; bh=Z9EBD1BhBgjeo5J5xx9juTU4KpTmgJkm9e7xIWmCSSQ=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=Ue/igPoHnd+pXbVOB25pZi4WiZRxGsa95V3TE6VzRrwjU99mU90BtsScS7mIKyP99 QIU57QCNJgYPlEa+/zzbAsxhP44R4nvNDszKhyAkPU3PcZEcOID3b/wk2W5MxNEpWo 2jCEQK2eOipQpVImXNzEhoTPMEEC1EBKZMHAJpLOUKV2iqaeSO0cWlxh0wAK1LDHXJ zblkb3tEeGSEYSDXdgcFBsyzegqkxaF3pPQjU9na3Fq6NYG4s3h54esOoFvVYYYhSc NmfiQi14b/6ouxYl2P1wivU/jjB/BtU/Ewf3h5wGS5R4JJl3V13MJR7yGCUrOWa3PF fAWIfLB2i7GPQ== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.67]) by opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48XTgh1wDMzDq7T; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:52:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:52:16 +0100 From: To: ADD Mailing list CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com)" , "Dan Wing (dan@danwing.org)" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV8fw6alZmvTuzX0C0vQF8PbSscqg4MEgA Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:52:14 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:52:31 -0000 Hi all,=20 We submitted this new I-D. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Cheers, Med -----Message d'origine----- De=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de in= ternet-drafts@ietf.org Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 4 mars 2020 09:09 =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org Objet=A0: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : DoH/DoT Deployment Considerations for Home Networ= ks Authors : Mohamed Boucadair Tirumaleswar Reddy Dan Wing Filename : draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-03-04 Abstract: This document discusses DoT/DoH deployment considerations for home networks. It particularly sketches the required steps to use DoT/DoH capabilities provided by local networks. One of the goals of this document is to assess to what extent existing tools can be used to provide a DoT/DoH service. As an outcome, new DHCP and Router Advertisement Options are specified in order to convey a DNS Authentication Domain Name. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-btw-add-home/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-btw-add-home-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-btw-add-home-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Fri Mar 6 10:02:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72303A0C5C for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 10:02:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Med, Thanks for sharing. Based on Section 10, it seems the intent of this draft = is to ensure use of DoT/DoH servers is prohibited until the user sees and a= grees to a privacy policy (exception: the device is configured ahead of tim= e by an admin to trust the given server). Is that accurate? If this is the case, I would be opposed to this version of the draft. While= I agree users and admins should have more control over their DNS queries, = blocking Internet access on DNS server approval for home users (with no ent= erprise admin to do the hard work for them) seems like a deal breaker for O= S vendors. I wouldn't block an HTTPS connection until the user reviews the = certificate chain either. Having this information available to decorate Int= ernet connection UI seems wise but blocking connectivity on approval is too= heavy handed for the general use case for OSes. Other feedback: * I see you're using "Do53" and referring to RFC8499. That RFC doesn't = specify whether "Do53" or "classic DNS" or something else is the appropriat= e term. There is a draft to address this by defining "classic DNS" but it expired. P= robably time for us to revisit that and formalize a term we can all use. * Section 1: * s/sotrage/storage * s/resolexpervers/resolvers Thanks, Tommy ________________________________ From: Add on behalf of mohamed.boucadair@orange.com = Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:52 AM To: ADD Mailing list Cc: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com) ; Dan Wing (dan@danwing.org) = Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Hi all, We submitted this new I-D. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Cheers, Med -----Message d'origine----- De : I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de inte= rnet-drafts@ietf.org Envoy=E9 : mercredi 4 mars 2020 09:09 =C0 : i-d-announce@ietf.org Objet : I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : DoH/DoT Deployment Considerations for Home Networ= ks Authors : Mohamed Boucadair Tirumaleswar Reddy Dan Wing Filename : draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-03-04 Abstract: This document discusses DoT/DoH deployment considerations for home networks. It particularly sketches the required steps to use DoT/DoH capabilities provided by local networks. One of the goals of this document is to assess to what extent existing tools can be used to provide a DoT/DoH service. As an outcome, new DHCP and Router Advertisement Options are specified in order to convey a DNS Authentication Domain Name. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-btw-add-home%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Tho= mas%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91= ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3DF8pys3zEoy0vOGnOgT7= 8LOJIbKzaNlMgtDconAJ2hLQ%3D&reserved=3D0 There are also htmlized versions available at: https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.i= etf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-btw-add-home-00&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thomas%4= 0microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7= cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3DEhFMoMg65FtPOpz2IJTWO%2B= sYDL178RA75fjy7V2yHI0%3D&reserved=3D0 https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-btw-add-home-00&data=3D02%7C01%7CJen= sen.Thomas%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f= 141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3D758uOmwdnh7Q= dcYVc4HtGgbeMIFHuLjtMp7wFsdS1mE%3D&reserved=3D0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi-d-announce&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thoma= s%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab= 2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3DoLdsbny2vjhDliNJRVwM3= r%2FpRXlUIlApOwf7cz2Snho%3D&reserved=3D0 Internet-Draft directories: https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/= ?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fshadow.html&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.= Thomas%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141a= f91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3DfiRJ58jcj7gEilNp= exiWBmXpiIWPdj11WgqbIESfhSg%3D&reserved=3D0 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt -- Add mailing list Add@ietf.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fadd&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thomas%40micro= soft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011d= b47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3Da8stqwwalz8Cvab2vjAurTftzQfuiw= hOqYSy048prJw%3D&reserved=3D0 --_000_MW2PR00MB0410F2E1D3575DD07752082AFAE30MW2PR00MB0410namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Med,

Thanks for sharing. Based on Section 10, it seems the intent of this draft = is to ensure use of DoT/DoH servers is prohibited until the user sees and a= grees to a privacy policy (exception: the device is configured ahead of tim= e by an admin to trust the given server). Is that accurate?

If this is the case, I would be opposed to this version of the draft. While= I agree users and admins should have more control over their DNS queries, = blocking Internet access on DNS server approval for home users (with no ent= erprise admin to do the hard work for them) seems like a deal breaker for OS vendors. I wouldn't block an HT= TPS connection until the user reviews the certificate chain either. Having = this information available to decorate Internet connection UI seems wise bu= t blocking connectivity on approval is too heavy handed for the general use case for OSes.

Other feedback:
  • I see you're using "Do53" and referring to RFC8499. That RFC = doesn't specify whether "Do53" or "classic DNS" or some= thing else is the appropriate term. There is a draft to address this by defining "classic DNS" but it expire= d. Probably time for us to revisit that and formalize a term we can all use= .
  • Section 1: 
    • s/sotrage/storage
    • s/resolexpervers/resolvers
Thanks,
Tommy

From: Add <add-bounces@i= etf.org> on behalf of mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair= @orange.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:52 AM
To: ADD Mailing list <add@ietf.org>
Cc: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com) &= lt;TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; Dan Wing <dan@danwing.org>= (dan@danwing.org) <dan@danwing.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt<= /font>
 
Hi all,

We submitted this new I-D.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Cheers,
Med

-----Message d'origine-----
De : I-D-Announce [ma= ilto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de internet-drafts@ietf.= org
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 4 mars 2020 09:09
=C0 : i-d-announce@ietf.org
Objet : I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.


        Title    &nb= sp;      : DoH/DoT Deployment Considerations for H= ome Networks
        Authors    &= nbsp;    : Mohamed Boucadair
            &nb= sp;            = Tirumaleswar Reddy
            &nb= sp;            = Dan Wing
        Filename    =     : draft-btw-add-home-00.txt
        Pages    &nb= sp;      : 17
        Date    &nbs= p;       : 2020-03-04

Abstract:
   This document discusses DoT/DoH deployment considerations for = home
   networks.  It particularly sketches the required steps to= use DoT/DoH
   capabilities provided by local networks.

   One of the goals of this document is to assess to what extent<= br>    existing tools can be used to provide a DoT/DoH service. = As an
   outcome, new DHCP and Router Advertisement Options are specifi= ed in
   order to convey a DNS Authentication Domain Name.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
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Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
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Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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15.00.1497.006; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 16:34:51 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman To: "Deen, Glenn" CC: ADD Mailing list Thread-Topic: [Ext] [Add] ADD Planning for IETF107 Thread-Index: AQHV9BMI351tcD20tU+dDFh8xw2ywqg8zmOA Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 00:34:51 +0000 Message-ID: <659242CA-6E65-40B7-B753-0964D8756EAB@icann.org> References: <79C104A7-47B8-4179-9B9A-25133C8B2840@comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <79C104A7-47B8-4179-9B9A-25133C8B2840@comcast.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] x-source-routing-agent: Processed Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EA84C979-C4B6-42B4-84D5-80FE4297AB08"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-03-06_09:2020-03-06, 2020-03-06 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] ADD Planning for IETF107 X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 00:34:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EA84C979-C4B6-42B4-84D5-80FE4297AB08 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FWIW, I consider draft-ietf-dnsop-resolver-information and = draft-sah-resinfo-doh to be as much about discovery of secure resolvers = as they are about resolver information. That is, if you know the address = of your current resolver, you can ask it "are you my secure resolver" = using those protocols. Separately, I don't understand the inclusion of = draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection in the agenda for this = WG. The document gives its scope as: This memo discusses whether DNS clients can improve their privacy through the potential use of a set of multiple recursive resolver services.=20 This doesn't seem like it is about resolver discovery or resolver = information, but instead about resolver assignment (probably by an = application or OS). I like many of the ideas in the draft, but they = don't seem to be home here. --Paul Hoffman --Apple-Mail=_EA84C979-C4B6-42B4-84D5-80FE4297AB08 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCC/Qw ggWeMIIEhqADAgECAhAG83jiXlqePPrfwUUEH4ZnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IFNIQTIgQXNzdXJlZCBJRCBDQTAeFw0xODA2MTMwMDAwMDBaFw0yMTA2 MTMxMjAwMDBaMIG9MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzETMBEGA1UECBMKQ2FsaWZvcm5pYTEUMBIGA1UEBxML TG9zIEFuZ2VsZXMxPDA6BgNVBAoTM0ludGVybmV0IENvcnBvcmF0aW9uIGZvciBBc3NpZ25lZCBO YW1lcyBhbmQgTnVtYmVyczEeMBwGA1UEAxMVUGF1bCBIb2ZmbWFuIDIwMTgwNjEzMSUwIwYJKoZI hvcNAQkBFhZwYXVsLmhvZmZtYW5AaWNhbm4ub3JnMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIB CgKCAQEArTbxBbfxbk1VxDQsOmEm14Yta2AE5cBcJ/ktMkC+aQrTCMSXrQJfjiMUUndnfAT1DWcf 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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:18:09 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFCOPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 17:18:16 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFCOPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tommy, Thank you for the comments. Please see inline. Cheers, Med De : Tommy Jensen [mailto:Jensen.Thomas@microsoft.com] Envoy=E9 : vendredi 6 mars 2020 19:03 =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; ADD Mailing list Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com); Dan Wi= ng (dan@danwing.org) Objet : Re: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Hey Med, Thanks for sharing. Based on Section 10, [Med] I guess you meant the Security section. it seems the intent of this draft is to ensure use of DoT/DoH servers is pr= ohibited until the user sees and agrees to a privacy policy (exception: the= device is configured ahead of time by an admin to trust the given server).= Is that accurate? [Med] The draft discusses many options under which the DNS client auto-upgr= ades to use a discovered local DoH/DoT server without seeking for the user = consent, but we have one particular case (called out in the security consid= erations Section) in which some 'input' is required to avoid a misuse of th= e service. That input can be a global configuration parameter, an explicit = consent, a default, etc. We need collectively to think about the exact behavior to follow. For examp= le, it does not make sense to seek for the user consent to upgrade to DoT/D= oH while that same server is used for Do53. If this is the case, I would be opposed to this version of the draft. While= I agree users and admins should have more control over their DNS queries, = blocking Internet access on DNS server approval for home users (with no ent= erprise admin to do the hard work for them) seems like a deal breaker for O= S vendors. I wouldn't block an HTTPS connection until the user reviews the = certificate chain either. Having this information available to decorate Int= ernet connection UI seems wise but blocking connectivity on approval is too= heavy handed for the general use case for OSes. Other feedback: * I see you're using "Do53" and referring to RFC8499. That RFC doesn't = specify whether "Do53" or "classic DNS" or something else is the appropriat= e term. There is a draft to address this by defining "classic DNS" but it expired. P= robably time for us to revisit that and formalize a term we can all use. [Med] Agree Do53 is not defined in RFC8499. It is defined in the dnsop I-D = cited in Section 2. This document makes use of the terms defined in [RFC8499] and [I-D.ietf-dnsop-terminology-ter]. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * Section 1: * s/sotrage/storage * s/resolexpervers/resolvers [Med] Thank you for catching those. We have already fixed them in -01: http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-btw-add-home. Thanks, Tommy ________________________________ From: Add on behalf of mohamed.boucadair@orange.com = Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:52 AM To: ADD Mailing list Cc: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com) ; Dan Wing (dan@danwing.org) = Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Hi all, We submitted this new I-D. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Cheers, Med -----Message d'origine----- De : I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de inte= rnet-drafts@ietf.org Envoy=E9 : mercredi 4 mars 2020 09:09 =C0 : i-d-announce@ietf.org Objet : I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : DoH/DoT Deployment Considerations for Home Networ= ks Authors : Mohamed Boucadair Tirumaleswar Reddy Dan Wing Filename : draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-03-04 Abstract: This document discusses DoT/DoH deployment considerations for home networks. It particularly sketches the required steps to use DoT/DoH capabilities provided by local networks. One of the goals of this document is to assess to what extent existing tools can be used to provide a DoT/DoH service. As an outcome, new DHCP and Router Advertisement Options are specified in order to convey a DNS Authentication Domain Name. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-btw-add-home%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Tho= mas%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91= ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3DF8pys3zEoy0vOGnOgT7= 8LOJIbKzaNlMgtDconAJ2hLQ%3D&reserved=3D0 There are also htmlized versions available at: https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.i= etf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-btw-add-home-00&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thomas%4= 0microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7= cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3DEhFMoMg65FtPOpz2IJTWO%2B= sYDL178RA75fjy7V2yHI0%3D&reserved=3D0 https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-btw-add-home-00&data=3D02%7C01%7CJen= sen.Thomas%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f= 141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3D758uOmwdnh7Q= dcYVc4HtGgbeMIFHuLjtMp7wFsdS1mE%3D&reserved=3D0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi-d-announce&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thoma= s%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab= 2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3DoLdsbny2vjhDliNJRVwM3= r%2FpRXlUIlApOwf7cz2Snho%3D&reserved=3D0 Internet-Draft directories: https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/= ?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fshadow.html&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.= Thomas%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141a= f91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3DfiRJ58jcj7gEilNp= exiWBmXpiIWPdj11WgqbIESfhSg%3D&reserved=3D0 or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt -- Add mailing list Add@ietf.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fadd&data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thomas%40micro= soft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011d= b47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&sdata=3Da8stqwwalz8Cvab2vjAurTftzQfuiw= hOqYSy048prJw%3D&reserved=3D0 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFCOPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Tommy,

 

Thank you for the comments.

 

Please see inline.

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : Tommy Jensen [mailto:Jensen.Thomas@microsoft.com]
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 6 mars 2020 19:03
=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; ADD Mailing list
Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.= com); Dan Wing <dan@danwing.org> (dan@danwing.org)
Objet : Re: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt

 

Hey Med,

 =

Thanks for sharin= g. Based on Section 10,

[Med] I gue= ss you meant the Security section.  

 =

it seems the inte= nt of this draft is to ensure use of DoT/DoH servers is prohibited until th= e user sees and agrees to a privacy policy (exception: the device is configured ahead of time by an admin to trust the given server).= Is that accurate?

 

[Med] The d= raft discusses many options under which the DNS client auto-upgrades to use= a discovered local DoH/DoT server without seeking for the user consent, but we have one particular case (called out in the s= ecurity considerations Section) in which some ‘input’ is requir= ed to avoid a misuse of the service. That input can be a global configurati= on parameter, an explicit consent, a default, etc.

 =

We need col= lectively to think about the exact behavior to follow. For example, it does= not make sense to seek for the user consent to upgrade to DoT/DoH while that same server is used for Do53.

 =

If this is the ca= se, I would be opposed to this version of the draft. While I agree users an= d admins should have more control over their DNS queries, blocking Internet access on DNS server approval for home users (with no en= terprise admin to do the hard work for them) seems like a deal breaker for = OS vendors. I wouldn't block an HTTPS connection until the user reviews the= certificate chain either. Having this information available to decorate Internet connection UI seems wise b= ut blocking connectivity on approval is too heavy handed for the general us= e case for OSes.

 =

Other feedback:

  • I se= e you're using "Do53" and referring to RFC8499. That RFC doesn't = specify whether "Do53" or "classic DNS" or something el= se is the appropriate term. There is a draft to address this by defining "classic DNS" but it expire= d. Probably time for us to revisit that and formalize a term we can all use= .

[Med] Agree Do53 is not defined in RFC8499. It is defined in = the dnsop I-D cited in Section 2.

   This document makes use of the terms defined = in [RFC8499] and

  [I-D.ietf-dnsop-terminology-ter].

   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

From: Add <add-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of mohamed.bou= cadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:52 AM
To: ADD Mailing list <add@ietf.org>
Cc: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com) &= lt;TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; Dan Wing <dan@danwing.org>= (dan@danwing.org) <dan@danwing.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt<= /span>

 

Hi all,

We submitted this new I-D.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Cheers,
Med

-----Message d'origine-----
De : I-D-Announce [ma= ilto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de internet-drafts@ietf.= org
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 4 mars 2020 09:09
=C0 : i-d-announce@ietf.org
Objet : I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.


        Title    &nb= sp;      : DoH/DoT Deployment Considerations for H= ome Networks
        Authors    &= nbsp;    : Mohamed Boucadair
            &nb= sp;            = Tirumaleswar Reddy
            &nb= sp;            = Dan Wing
        Filename    =     : draft-btw-add-home-00.txt
        Pages    &nb= sp;      : 17
        Date    &nbs= p;       : 2020-03-04

Abstract:
   This document discusses DoT/DoH deployment considerations for = home
   networks.  It particularly sketches the required steps to= use DoT/DoH
   capabilities provided by local networks.

   One of the goals of this document is to assess to what extent<= br>    existing tools can be used to provide a DoT/DoH service. = As an
   outcome, new DHCP and Router Advertisement Options are specifi= ed in
   order to convey a DNS Authentication Domain Name.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https:= //nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.i= etf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-btw-add-home%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thoma= s%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab= 2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&amp;sdata=3DF8pys3zEoy0vOGnOg= T78LOJIbKzaNlMgtDconAJ2hLQ%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://n= am06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2= Fhtml%2Fdraft-btw-add-home-00&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thomas%40micr= osoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011= db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&amp;sdata=3DEhFMoMg65FtPOpz2IJTWO%2Bs= YDL178RA75fjy7V2yHI0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatat= racker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-btw-add-home-00&amp;data=3D02%7C01= %7CJensen.Thomas%40microsoft.com%7C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f98= 8bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637189123649108842&amp;sdata=3D75= 8uOmwdnh7QdcYVc4HtGgbeMIFHuLjtMp7wFsdS1mE%3D&amp;reserved=3D0


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet= -drafts/


_______________________________________________
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Internet-Draft directories: https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf= .org%2Fshadow.html&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7CJensen.Thomas%40microsoft.com%7= C5f21d93bdb3949ebf5d608d7c021c80a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C= 0%7C637189123649108842&amp;sdata=3DfiRJ58jcj7gEilNpexiWBmXpiIWPdj11Wgqb= IESfhSg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org= /ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

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It claims to address both, but the mechanism is identical to th= e DoT piece. There is a bunch more meat to the draft that I appreciate = in terms of setting context. How do you anticipate DoH servers being located using this? I don't see= any way you could acquire the URI template using the provided options. On Wed, Mar 4, 2020, at 20:52, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi all,=20 >=20 > We submitted this new I-D. >=20 > Comments and suggestions are welcome. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De=C2=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la pa= rt de=20 > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 4 mars 2020 09:09 > =C3=80=C2=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Objet=C2=A0: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories. >=20 >=20 > Title : DoH/DoT Deployment Considerations for Home N= etworks > Authors : Mohamed Boucadair > Tirumaleswar Reddy > Dan Wing > Filename : draft-btw-add-home-00.txt > Pages : 17 > Date : 2020-03-04 >=20 > Abstract: > This document discusses DoT/DoH deployment considerations for home > networks. It particularly sketches the required steps to use DoT/D= oH > capabilities provided by local networks. >=20 > One of the goals of this document is to assess to what extent > existing tools can be used to provide a DoT/DoH service. As an > outcome, new DHCP and Router Advertisement Options are specified in= > order to convey a DNS Authentication Domain Name. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-btw-add-home/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-btw-add-home-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-btw-add-home-00 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >=20 > --=20 > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > From nobody Sun Mar 8 17:17:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F26F3A0C44 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rtv37XqEBZWVzoPVrHp9fpxBNuUJEagL9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 00:17:55 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --rtv37XqEBZWVzoPVrHp9fpxBNuUJEagL9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="eCJTQPDWtV1K3XXNOOfrP1PtjyyHHap8L"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, ADD Mailing list Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com)" , "Dan Wing (dan@danwing.org)" Message-ID: <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> --eCJTQPDWtV1K3XXNOOfrP1PtjyyHHap8L Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------93240C2AF08C4AA3619D9E0E" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------93240C2AF08C4AA3619D9E0E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 04/03/2020 09:52, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi all,=20 >=20 > We submitted this new I-D. I read the -00 and just scanned the diff to -01. I'm not sure this is the right approach. It's worth talking about though. Aside from issues already raised, (with which I might end up agreeing, not sure yet), I have one major issue with the draft... I have a home router that uses DoT (as a forwarder) to a server I configured. (Actually I also operate the server but that's beside the point:-) Since I set that up, later releases of the router OS (Turris) ship with DoT server configs that can be chosen via GUI on the router. Not sure if they have a DoH option, but there's no reason that couldn't be added. None of that involves my ISP. None of that needs to. I don't think that model is envisaged in the draft text, at least as I read it. I think it should be, as that architectural component (home router or server or g/w that's not owned by ISP nor by other mega-company but that exists to do the home n/w owner's bidding) is, I think, important to support well. I do get that, today, such setups are rare. But we should still support 'em, because they do allow for better service to home n/w users, even if the much more likely defaults are less optimal in that respect. Cheers, S. >=20 > Comments and suggestions are welcome. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De=C2=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la par= t de internet-drafts@ietf.org > Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 4 mars 2020 09:09 > =C3=80=C2=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Objet=C2=A0: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. >=20 >=20 > Title : DoH/DoT Deployment Considerations for Home Ne= tworks > Authors : Mohamed Boucadair > Tirumaleswar Reddy > Dan Wing > Filename : draft-btw-add-home-00.txt > Pages : 17 > Date : 2020-03-04 >=20 > Abstract: > This document discusses DoT/DoH deployment considerations for home > networks. It particularly sketches the required steps to use DoT/Do= H > capabilities provided by local networks. >=20 > One of the goals of this document is to assess to what extent > existing tools can be used to provide a DoT/DoH service. As an > outcome, new DHCP and Router Advertisement Options are specified in > order to convey a DNS Authentication Domain Name. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-btw-add-home/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-btw-add-home-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-btw-add-home-00 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >=20 --------------93240C2AF08C4AA3619D9E0E 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<158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 12:03:56 -0000 SGkgTWFydGluLA0KDQpHb29kIHBvaW50IGFib3V0IHRoZSBVUkkgdGVtcGxhdGUuIFRoZSBkcmFm dCBhbHJlYWR5IGluY2x1ZGVzIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmc6DQoNCiAgIElmIERvSCBpcyBzdXBwb3J0 ZWQgYnkgdGhlIEROUyBzZXJ2ZXIsIHRoZSBETlMgY2xpZW50IG1heSByZXF1ZXN0IHRoZQ0KICAg VVJJIHJlc291cmNlIHJlY29yZCB0eXBlIFtSRkM3NTUzXSB1c2luZyB0aGUgZG9tYWluIG5hbWUg 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From: To: Stephen Farrell , ADD Mailing list CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com)" , "Dan Wing (dan@danwing.org)" Thread-Topic: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV9agmyBasY163pEamVw26CObm/KhAKk/w Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:28:26 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146547F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, ADD Mailing list Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com)" , "Dan Wing (dan@danwing.org)" References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146547F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg 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Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0Gi1Uri9ZWohvPro96zssUkiizpktZiHe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 13:06:08 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0Gi1Uri9ZWohvPro96zssUkiizpktZiHe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="JmJSZaATAMQczj7FudnfJ6ztA93C3rX70"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, ADD Mailing list Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com)" , "Dan Wing (dan@danwing.org)" Message-ID: <65350aa9-6e23-2449-b6bf-f7fcf6a98c11@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146547F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146547F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> --JmJSZaATAMQczj7FudnfJ6ztA93C3rX70 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4093293D2B7F946F42F93723" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4093293D2B7F946F42F93723 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 09/03/2020 12:28, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > [Med] Your scenario would look like the following:=20 >=20 > ,--,--,--. ,--,--,--. > DoT-capable ,-' `-. ,-' 3rd Party `-. > Host----( LAN CPE----( DNS Server ) > | `-. ,-'| `-. ,-' > | `--'--'--' | `--'--'--' > | | |=20 > |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DDoT/DoH=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>|<=3D=3DDoT/= DoH=3D=3D>| >=20 Not quite that. Sorry for the absence of ascii-art but the CPE provided by the ISP is not the DoT-enabled home router in my case - I have a 2nd router inside the home n/w (from the POV of the ISP's CPE). The devices inside the home n/w (other than a couple of oddities) use that 2nd router and today do Do53 to that. There are also some devices that use DoH or Dot to CF or other places I've configured. > Before answering whether this case is covered in the current version of= the draft, can you please clarify which setup actions do you perform (in= cluding on the CPE and the host)? E.g., Do you get a domain name? Do you = make use of certificates? Thank you. >=20 In my setup all the certs are verifiable chaining up to the usual browser root stores. But my main comment is that the home router that does almost all DNS might not be provided by the ISP so any discovery or similar protocol ought not make that assumption. I recognise that that's a corner-case and it may remain so, but equally, home networks might develop in other directions due to a plethora of small devices unrelated to the ISP, so we should keep that kind of setup in mind. Cheers, S. --------------4093293D2B7F946F42F93723 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB 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15:39:27 +0000 From: Daniel Migault To: ADD Mailing list Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-mglt-add-rdp-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV9igj0iMJheumAUO3MJ7qIfIqzKhAZJ3g Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 15:39:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158376802513.5487.2706277135396354902@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158376802513.5487.2706277135396354902@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=daniel.migault@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [96.22.11.129] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 84724415-8a68-487e-5f47-08d7c4400cf5 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR15MB2333: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6790; x-forefront-prvs: 0337AFFE9A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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id GVbcsjgG-xb2; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:58:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:58:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [193.111.228.74] (unknown [193.111.228.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 906886020D9F; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 11:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Paul Wouters Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 11:57:48 -0400 Message-Id: <0D830DDA-79E5-4913-8AA0-A8592122728D@nohats.ca> References: Cc: ADD Mailing list In-Reply-To: To: Daniel Migault X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17D50) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mglt-add-rdp-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 15:58:12 -0000 Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 9, 2020, at 11:39, Daniel Migault wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi,=20 >=20 > Please find a description of the DNS Resolver Discovery Protocol (RDP). You cannot really call it RDP. That is already in use for Remote Desktop Pro= tocol. It would be way too confusing. 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Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:14:47 +0000 From: Daniel Migault To: Paul Wouters CC: ADD Mailing list Thread-Topic: [Add] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mglt-add-rdp-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV9igj0iMJheumAUO3MJ7qIfIqzKhAZJ3ggAAGCACAAARawA== Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:14:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0D830DDA-79E5-4913-8AA0-A8592122728D@nohats.ca> In-Reply-To: <0D830DDA-79E5-4913-8AA0-A8592122728D@nohats.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=daniel.migault@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [96.22.11.129] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b1ac2346-9f60-4f0e-2b7d-08d7c444fcfe x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR15MB2240: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4941; x-forefront-prvs: 0337AFFE9A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(39860400002)(366004)(376002)(136003)(346002)(189003)(199004)(478600001)(71200400001)(81156014)(8676002)(81166006)(6916009)(4744005)(53546011)(8936002)(2906002)(6506007)(52536014)(7696005)(4326008)(5660300002)(66574012)(76116006)(66946007)(66556008)(33656002)(316002)(186003)(15650500001)(66476007)(86362001)(55016002)(44832011)(64756008)(66446008)(26005)(9686003); 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b1ac2346-9f60-4f0e-2b7d-08d7c444fcfe X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Mar 2020 16:14:47.6131 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: EdMSLX1AUs3XxnGq7JL65tfcFFw+wlue/R6vy8Cs72jpfZbxA6+IgXTU+KVtTbNR7kLx3jQ6BuFFKzX4LsAXrNyDS6zn6WAaBe0i2NLY1HY= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR15MB2240 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mglt-add-rdp-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 16:14:51 -0000 VGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgZmVlZCBiYWNrLCB3ZSBjYW4gdGhpbmsgb2YgYW5vdGhlciBuYW1lLiAN CllvdXJzLCANCkRhbmllbA0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogUGF1 bCBXb3V0ZXJzIDxwYXVsQG5vaGF0cy5jYT4gDQpTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIE1hcmNoIDksIDIwMjAg MTE6NTggQU0NClRvOiBEYW5pZWwgTWlnYXVsdCA8ZGFuaWVsLm1pZ2F1bHRAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29t Pg0KQ2M6IEFERCBNYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QgPGFkZEBpZXRmLm9yZz4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbQWRk XSBGVzogTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1tZ2x0LWFkZC1yZHAtMDAu dHh0DQoNCg0KDQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgaVBob25lDQoNCj4gT24gTWFyIDksIDIwMjAsIGF0IDEx OjM5LCBEYW5pZWwgTWlnYXVsdCA8ZGFuaWVsLm1pZ2F1bHQ9NDBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb21AZG1hcmMu aWV0Zi5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4g77u/SGksIA0KPiANCj4gUGxlYXNlIGZpbmQgYSBkZXNj cmlwdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgRE5TIFJlc29sdmVyIERpc2NvdmVyeSBQcm90b2NvbCAoUkRQKS4NCg0K WW91IGNhbm5vdCByZWFsbHkgY2FsbCBpdCBSRFAuIFRoYXQgaXMgYWxyZWFkeSBpbiB1c2UgZm9y IFJlbW90ZSBEZXNrdG9wIFByb3RvY29sLiBJdCB3b3VsZCBiZSB3YXkgdG9vIGNvbmZ1c2luZy4N Cg0KUGF1bA0K From nobody Mon Mar 9 18:02:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B723A0BBF for ; 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Mon, 9 Mar 2020 21:02:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-991-g5a577d3-fmstable-20200305v3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <563e2b0b-8c6c-4921-813d-f8419b66c737@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314653F6@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314653F6@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:02:22 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "add@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 01:02:56 -0000 On Mon, Mar 9, 2020, at 23:03, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Good point about the URI template. The draft already includes the following: > > If DoH is supported by the DNS server, the DNS client may request the > URI resource record type [RFC7553] using the domain name discovered > using DNS Reference Identifier DHCP/RA option (Section 4) to use the > HTTPS URI scheme (Section 3 of [RFC8484]). I missed that, thanks. A URI template is not a URI, so that's a little odd. But that's just semantics, I'm happy to wave that aside if others are. A more substantive concern is that this creates a false equivalence between domain name and DoH service. You can only ever have one DoH service for a given host if you choose this mechanism. Using DNS like this means that the choice is made for the name as a whole and not as part of the proposed host configuration. For me, I'd prefer something more explicit in the RA/DHCP/etc... From nobody Mon Mar 9 18:47:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB993A0CFE for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 18:46:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=bhMl3C/q; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=hw9ODjdF Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HfB9c84b03j9 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 18:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5EEC3A0CB2 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 18:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25889 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2020 01:46:47 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=651f.5e66f187.k2003; bh=ldRyP9mWz7SBhuXUSkqkHByKpyMXkJk+KC4KOMEBhMM=; b=bhMl3C/qTI4VMxX6LLAfXQOxofeuj2oDEPB6pT+NlRCkKNuw0s07XdD30ZTgte+an7Rh9we2xC5bQtwqiW8KJX1a7Tp68nxrZv8YjAugo5WsEcCyDQm/iCS6T0ApuXQs5JlagYNV0kZPA03LHZredWuf+bkKLiLW/Mf/5Qw1cF13mHMO5DM0WD2qVFTjOaqcVCRGeTHQEGCDLsmno2xO7Oe6tKG58toqkH4hkV7RvPsJAt76cPw3vGU+aKx/RW37 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=651f.5e66f187.k2003; bh=ldRyP9mWz7SBhuXUSkqkHByKpyMXkJk+KC4KOMEBhMM=; b=hw9ODjdFxqaWDxxLG+0LdBbLii0cDqhpa3wMG2gcRi3KwpAa9NDh7Ku/N1N2qK6NjeM6mGG76vq6qCAMPHUA9ZS8RZmRZdhFylubvvW5iEzruc2jEYYjNB8o+xKA/9bipcEAH50Q5tmoZp+y1Unr98Wg6UYrix3wc3b5ODdiEMv4/z4u5UBAPC4MZAaBbQb1mxjAq73U9pS1ms8n+SI99S9nkHEF7drlNqz8eKmM0FS8erxcHuCsTxF6jfpnpuTl Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 10 Mar 2020 01:46:47 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1913B15A8F74; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 21:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: 9 Mar 2020 21:46:46 -0400 Message-Id: <20200310014647.1913B15A8F74@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: add@ietf.org Cc: paul@nohats.ca In-Reply-To: <0D830DDA-79E5-4913-8AA0-A8592122728D@nohats.ca> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mglt-add-rdp-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 01:47:05 -0000 In article <0D830DDA-79E5-4913-8AA0-A8592122728D@nohats.ca> you write: > > >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 9, 2020, at 11:39, Daniel Migault wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Please find a description of the DNS Resolver Discovery Protocol (RDP). > >You cannot really call it RDP. That is already in use for Remote Desktop Protocol. It would be >way too confusing. No, RDP is Reliable Data Protocol. See RFCs 908 and 1151. R's, John PS: Perhaps the horse has left the barn. 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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:59:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:59:57 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephen Farrell , ADD Mailing list Message-ID: <1420261582.37944.1583834398098@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <65350aa9-6e23-2449-b6bf-f7fcf6a98c11@cs.tcd.ie> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146547F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <65350aa9-6e23-2449-b6bf-f7fcf6a98c11@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:00:06 -0000 > Il 09/03/2020 14:05 Stephen Farrell ha scritto: > > But my main comment is that the home router that does > almost all DNS might not be provided by the ISP so any > discovery or similar protocol ought not make that > assumption. I recognise that that's a corner-case Yes, it's an infrequent case, but I would not call it a corner case. At least in Europe, there is regulation that requires all ISPs to allow users to buy and deploy any CPE they like. Also, it is relatively common, for smart users that couldn't get their ISP to do without the CPE, to deploy another router in front (LAN-side) of the CPE. This happens, for example, because the CPE has the appropriate fiber termination but the user's desired home router has not, but has other features that the user needs. So indeed these are use cases that have to be supported. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Mar 10 03:18:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684523A0FD4 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 03:18:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o3VnjhwqgAEj for ; 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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 11:18:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 11:18:42 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, ADD Mailing list Message-ID: <1659773937.38028.1583835522817@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com>, <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_38026_275031167.1583835522801" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:18:47 -0000 ------=_Part_38026_275031167.1583835522801 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 07/03/2020 18:18 mohamed.boucadair@orange.com ha scritto: > > > We need collectively to think about the exact behavior to follow. For example, it does not make sense to seek for the user consent to upgrade to DoT/DoH while that same server is used for Do53. > I agree, though "user consent" is generic. If we suggest that as a best practice consent should be asked, we should make it explicit why, and what should the user be consenting to. If user consent is introduced to comply with data protection laws, then the elements of the consent are: - who will get the data - what will that party do with the data This means that the transmission channel over which data is sent to that party is unimportant in terms of consent, so if the user is ok with the DNS operator receiving their information via Do53, it can be assumed that he/she is also ok with the DNS operator receiving the same information via DoT/DoH or in any other way. On the other hand, if the consent is tied to the degree of channel security that is offered, then indeed the switch of channel might affect the user's desire to consent. Still, if we can assume that DoT/DoH towards the same operator always offers more security than Do53, and that the user has already consented to Do53, then we can also assume that the user will be happy with DoT/DoH as well. Bottom line: if we want to discuss consent-related issues in a draft, we should expand the reasons behind our suggestions. Or we can just strike the discussion entirely, as apparently it has been done in the last versions. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_38026_275031167.1583835522801 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 07/03/2020 18:18 mohamed.boucadair@orange.com ha scritto:

We need collectively to think about the exact behavior to follow. For example, it does not make sense to seek for the user consent to upgrade to DoT/DoH while that same server is used for Do53.

I agree, though "user consent" is generic. If we suggest that as a best practice consent should be asked, we should make it explicit why, and what should the user be consenting to.

If user consent is introduced to comply with data protection laws, then the elements of the consent are:
- who will get the data
- what will that party do with the data
This means that the transmission channel over which data is sent to that party is unimportant in terms of consent, so if the user is ok with the DNS operator receiving their information via Do53, it can be assumed that he/she is also ok with the DNS operator receiving the same information via DoT/DoH or in any other way.

On the other hand, if the consent is tied to the degree of channel security that is offered, then indeed the switch of channel might affect the user's desire to consent. Still, if we can assume that DoT/DoH towards the same operator always offers more security than Do53, and that the user has already consented to Do53, then we can also assume that the user will be happy with DoT/DoH as well.

Bottom line: if we want to discuss consent-related issues in a draft, we should expand the reasons behind our suggestions. Or we can just strike the discussion entirely, as apparently it has been done in the last versions.

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_38026_275031167.1583835522801-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 04:08:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392973A10A8 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 04:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mad.paris header.b=ryoVfTmO; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=lwmSWpP4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F4lj2ELojFCl for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 04:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7BBB3A10A7 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 04:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E207021D88; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 07:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap26 ([10.202.2.76]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 10 Mar 2020 07:08:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mad.paris; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=ZIHnubSbXvjb/LPkkj4qja/BAdvLNv9 V6ebN56bMwMs=; b=ryoVfTmOTdmTKuUwKAR9xDd2AQ4LpgkKWDPjg5t7Jxs8h8U KgPtAsZp1tsCm3ygMIb4e7D/JZw8/h7eLYG9ZeVCxX3HPV0mQxbzj5JJc2Dy6EK+ mBZ7CfzfGIWDxwX2qoQihyMUjE4LRqoqEUKTMSs73+RIDP/bBGvZXrwWdOM/wpGK QAMpU0n1ja1k4SkpdaGZRDVVmxMdinjplV/Ajgptt1d/KlQ5KAB2RWtOohwbFySW nohVzYh/zm4Cux8+g+tODmOLlaDcGUlybgYnrv3AMZfZJedXWw25JrBYk0ob569q CBCySXXyaBwEwxwkMXOQgNB2TBCjPtaO2Rw91Pw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=ZIHnub SbXvjb/LPkkj4qja/BAdvLNv9V6ebN56bMwMs=; b=lwmSWpP4G4dibEgcc1IJhE LUI1RS/Vm23DJG+ogfvxcju3rF9lAQLfEhqxa2JGosiM+5hyQDvJapq7OGDUk+Tx 0LnlcNqDhWxlILVRi8SSRe9Q5HXt15Kli6+OF9ZxUJkQ6DjHaj+bNP8niRzwlaNj kNAcJu9usnKe3zUS7dsihIdY9nmjKq7gLsgIuFlHn9yJ/VAevQGzC9lQxtzOVpV7 QrxcQmOO1h+54Gwgc2Rmuyt6GLaNqlJsjQNXNXw4UW8pnxVbZ6gNcdAGCGsyACMp ehSNJESdqQUJiKkxkDlS14dj7y+S9Occ1wWzCA2APTCcOz6wIY+sbvTo9CV57nMw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedruddvtddgvdegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsegrtd erreerredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfkfgrnhcuofgrugguihhsohhnfdcuoehirghnsehmrggu rdhprghrihhsqeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehirghnsehmrggurdhprghrihhs X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4065514200A2; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 07:08:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-991-g5a577d3-fmstable-20200305v3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0cd22a55-305f-42ec-a152-64bb5b9910a2@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1659773937.38028.1583835522817@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1659773937.38028.1583835522817@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:08:12 +0100 From: "Ian Maddison" To: "Vittorio Bertola" , "ADD Mailing list" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=4ef5f64115e449d78ce1da143f8f7395 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 11:08:38 -0000 --4ef5f64115e449d78ce1da143f8f7395 Content-Type: text/plain Hi Vittorio, On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, at 11:18, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > On the other hand, if the consent is tied to the degree of channel security that is offered, then indeed the switch of channel might affect the user's desire to consent. Still, if we can assume that DoT/DoH towards the same operator always offers more security than Do53, and that the user has already consented to Do53, then we can also assume that the user will be happy with DoT/DoH as well. That sounds fine until you consider the probable DNS performance degradation of DoT/DoH compared to Do53. Perhaps users prefer to give prior consent to anything that affects their performance. Apologies if this isn't currently in scope, but nonetheless I feel it would be wise to also consider DNS performance aspects here. --4ef5f64115e449d78ce1da143f8f7395 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Vittorio,
<= div style=3D"font-family:verdana, sans-serif;color:#0000cd;">
<= div style=3D"font-family:verdana, sans-serif;color:#0000cd;">On Tue, 10 = Mar 2020, at 11:18, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

On the other hand, if the consent i= s tied to the degree of channel security that is offered, then indeed th= e switch of channel might affect the user's desire to consent. Still, if= we can assume that DoT/DoH towards the same operator always offers more= security than Do53, and that the user has already consented to Do53, th= en we can also assume that the user will be happy with DoT/DoH as well. =

That sounds fine until you consider the probable DNS perfor= mance degradation of DoT/DoH compared to Do53. Perhaps users prefer to g= ive prior consent to anything that affects their performance. Apologies = if this isn't currently in scope, but nonetheless I feel it would be wis= e to also consider DNS performance aspects here.
--4ef5f64115e449d78ce1da143f8f7395-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 05:58:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFEC3A1289 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 05:58:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7YV8ELD7nVCf for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 05:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 430233A1288 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 05:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48cFXF74h2z10Wj; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:58:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1583845134; bh=mvGfOzUvVTCCS1e9I9v+eBGwz1puRY6p6ov/+9lU2rk=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=Xy9SNDRNRAjNMTY5K2SvuS4d8N7sHzlO06bakDqA4nPG1Rzyec1nxsX4krKiq0NeW 9+y8NuBJkLDp+yq8Ig6DSN1vDKqvOymcBtn0LfFLWOi3VnUXaOoFko3OFk3lCEc2zf wXcfAvtE7BzKTPiACxtco7bLLrXiVt929JgST5V9ewb4iyuxcQF1NdRwTlXucxWk8b cWfDQjS2cUSRQwnOUVdKYIXMW1kkZLTIXvE59s7QzEpzi/OB+eYWqwP2Rhkp8V0eQs 9gLhpidw0HLiJulF8EllMnw23rfcAoJe3NMWE6mQq2DQgMEZobwqq2p0jNc+XFwpkh 3q79dcdQw64Vg== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.89]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48cFXF6GhWzDq8F; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:58:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:58:53 +0100 From: To: Martin Thomson , "add@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV9neNMlI8YwggNUaDHn8/0RdIKqhBsCZQ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:58:53 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146746F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314653F6@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <563e2b0b-8c6c-4921-813d-f8419b66c737@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <563e2b0b-8c6c-4921-813d-f8419b66c737@www.fastmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:58:57 -0000 Hi Martin, Defining an RA/DHCP option to achieve what you are describing is feasible b= ut we need to think about the overall model before we go that path.=20 (1) For example, the domain name provided in RA/DHCP will be used to retrie= ve supported DoH services following methods such as those in draft-ietf-doh= -resolver-associated-doh. I see some advantages in restricting the informat= ion to be conveyed by the network to a domain name and a of IP addresses as= we don't need a change to the network configuration to reflect a change of= DoH services.=20 This is less of a concern for DHCP but may be problematic for RAs (risk of = stale information). Of course things can be automated but I think that we n= eed to discuss these details. (2) RFC8484 defines only a single variable "dns" but future specs can defin= e other URI templates with other variables: How validation will be done by = DHCP clients? Or should DHCP clients "blindly" pass that templates to DoH c= lients that will proceed with the validation? Thoughts? Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Martin Thomson [mailto:mt@lowentropy.net] > Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 10 mars 2020 02:02 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; add@ietf.org > Objet=A0: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt >=20 > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020, at 23:03, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > Good point about the URI template. The draft already includes the > following: > > > > If DoH is supported by the DNS server, the DNS client may request > the > > URI resource record type [RFC7553] using the domain name > discovered > > using DNS Reference Identifier DHCP/RA option (Section 4) to use > the > > HTTPS URI scheme (Section 3 of [RFC8484]). >=20 > I missed that, thanks. >=20 > A URI template is not a URI, so that's a little odd. But that's just > semantics, I'm happy to wave that aside if others are. >=20 > A more substantive concern is that this creates a false equivalence > between domain name and DoH service. You can only ever have one DoH > service for a given host if you choose this mechanism. Using DNS like > this means that the choice is made for the name as a whole and not as > part of the proposed host configuration. For me, I'd prefer something > more explicit in the RA/DHCP/etc... From nobody Tue Mar 10 06:21:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC0E3A12BE for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:21:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ZArJeAIs6N9 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DDAA3A12B3 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by opfedar27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48cG270ytsz2yKb; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:21:19 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1583846479; bh=Jr8GLvbgcnvUXhkzj2c06d2j6iFTCQLEemEd5vQXzj8=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=nkUbYXofBeWTC2d7NK9LXW+rsgktG3c4QVSse8lttxYP4npDIYj+RMeS9pqymAY3P alGqLuOZoQ0ghg7vBM/tlOoMcdyrrzP31/VoqzqONKZ9R6WzzwbEevpQKHHfXRWvpx O65jfHARp+I1gdJWiNKexWRe3ivOp5QkdtwQXYgZbwvd5xcjZykvLHfo6Dhe359s/h vBpzKrZ6Tp2LrQCkdj0nLDzVaOTRklJLiZkuctbVTW1ARiam4dEbs0xo9UCwOgTwKG 7qiNIGaz/N9pEUp0uchjLb8zWcPSc8zYd5hTriFpWZu0DZtF1UJRIJnlIMJaWZu0hP XV7k49XPkHxNw== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.32]) by opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48cG2700CvzCqkr; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:21:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e878:bd0:c89e:5b42]) by OPEXCAUBM7C.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:21:18 +0100 From: To: Ian Maddison , Vittorio Bertola , ADD Mailing list Thread-Topic: [Add] I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV9sxGdFyq9W3S+UKFg78LZKaFP6hBreqA Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:21:18 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031467531@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1659773937.38028.1583835522817@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0cd22a55-305f-42ec-a152-64bb5b9910a2@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0cd22a55-305f-42ec-a152-64bb5b9910a2@www.fastmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031467531OPEXCAUBMA2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:21:23 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031467531OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ian, Vittorio, What you are both saying is exactly why handling user consent is a more gen= eral point, not specific to this draft. That is why we went with the following in the draft: The use of DoH/DoT also depends on the user's policies. For example, the user may indicate his/her consent to use (or not) the locally- discovered DoH/DoT server or request to review human-readable privacy policy information of a selected DNS server to assess whether that DNS server performs DNS-based content filtering (e.g., [I-D.reddy-dprive-dprive-privacy-policy]). The DNS c= lient is assumed to adhere to these policies. This document does not make any assumption about the structure of such policies nor mandates specific requirements. Such policies and their handling is out of scope. Cheers, Med De : Add [mailto:add-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Ian Maddison Envoy=E9 : mardi 10 mars 2020 12:08 =C0 : Vittorio Bertola; ADD Mailing list Objet : Re: [Add] I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Hi Vittorio, On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, at 11:18, Vittorio Bertola wrote: On the other hand, if the consent is tied to the degree of channel security= that is offered, then indeed the switch of channel might affect the user's= desire to consent. Still, if we can assume that DoT/DoH towards the same o= perator always offers more security than Do53, and that the user has alread= y consented to Do53, then we can also assume that the user will be happy wi= th DoT/DoH as well. That sounds fine until you consider the probable DNS performance degradatio= n of DoT/DoH compared to Do53. Perhaps users prefer to give prior consent t= o anything that affects their performance. Apologies if this isn't currentl= y in scope, but nonetheless I feel it would be wise to also consider DNS pe= rformance aspects here. --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031467531OPEXCAUBMA2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ian, Vittorio,

 

What you are both saying is exactly why hand= ling user consent is a more general point, not specific to this draft.=

 

That is why we went with the following in th= e draft:

   The use of DoH/DoT also depends on the user's polici=
es.  For example,
   the user may indicate his/her consent to use (or not) the=
 locally-
   discovered DoH/DoT server or request to review human-read=
able privacy
   policy information of a selected DNS server to assess whe=
ther that
   DNS server performs DNS-based content filtering (e.g.,
   [I-D.redd=
y-dprive-dprive-privacy-policy]).  The DNS client is assumed<=
/o:p>
   to adhere to these policies.  This document does not=
 make any
   assumption about the structure of such policies nor manda=
tes specific
   requirements.  Such policies and their handling is o=
ut of scope.

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : Add [mailto:add-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Ian Maddison
Envoy=E9 : mardi 10 mars 2020 12:08
=C0 : Vittorio Bertola; ADD Mailing list
Objet : Re: [Add] I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt

 

Hi Vittorio,

 

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, at 11:18, Vittorio= Bertola wrote:

 

On the other hand, if the consent is tied to the deg= ree of channel security that is offered, then indeed the switch of channel = might affect the user's desire to consent. Still, if we can assume that DoT= /DoH towards the same operator always offers more security than Do53, and that the user has already consented to= Do53, then we can also assume that the user will be happy with DoT/DoH as = well.

 

That sounds fine until you consider the= probable DNS performance degradation of DoT/DoH compared to Do53. Perhaps = users prefer to give prior consent to anything that affects their performance. Apologies if this isn't currently in scope, but nonethe= less I feel it would be wise to also consider DNS performance aspects here.=

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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 10/03/2020 14:21 mohamed.boucadair@orange.com ha scritto: > > > > Hi Ian, Vittorio, > > > > What you are both saying is exactly why handling user consent is a more general point, not specific to this draft. > I was actually wondering whether a non-technical draft devoted to framing and discussing issues of consent and privacy in the selection of DNS resolvers, as part of the third point of the charter, would be useful - or whether it would just prompt circular talk. In case, it should be written by/with policy people and privacy experts (there are several in DPRIVE and HRPC already). -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_46701_325934664.1583847083535 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 10/03/2020 14:21 mohamed.boucadair@orange.com ha scritto:


Hi Ian, Vittorio,

 

What you are both saying is exactly why handling user consent is a more general point, not specific to this draft.

I was actually wondering whether a non-technical draft devoted to framing and discussing issues of consent and privacy in the selection of DNS resolvers, as part of the third point of the charter, would be useful - or whether it would just prompt circular talk. In case, it should be written by/with policy people and privacy experts (there are several in DPRIVE and HRPC already).

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ivci0y_l8ovy for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 07:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0B173A13D9 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 07:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04C2BE24; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:30:33 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7QDxCjFU3dRE; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:30:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32E93BDCF; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:30:32 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1583850632; bh=8m/Al4RstCHv8yuPzrRoctfcQBIzikv7fWfo4Nanp7M=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=I/MYPNd2PsdcwX+gspkRTd7Czt8nDi0+3SS2dSLdMOPJa1GbClIrFCGk1w0AaZY44 r69zePMvG1oBJqhrOzKNmWSeNPhfDypWghPdNremtmb6H911zP27bGSI0wPuOd7iW/ eGamywrRakVJb+MOIhYU5+LsjUHYrHqKzShVMMJI= To: Vittorio Bertola , mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, ADD Mailing list References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1659773937.38028.1583835522817@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0cd22a55-305f-42ec-a152-64bb5b9910a2@www.fastmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031467531@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1036080957.46703.1583847083548@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Fo9fF2xV9ABqubJ31tAYFHMLgUfQgJfdt"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio Bertola , mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, ADD Mailing list Message-ID: <71ea074e-a6c6-46c7-d6c3-8485c516847a@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Add] I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031463FFC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1659773937.38028.1583835522817@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0cd22a55-305f-42ec-a152-64bb5b9910a2@www.fastmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031467531@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1036080957.46703.1583847083548@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1036080957.46703.1583847083548@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> --Fo9fF2xV9ABqubJ31tAYFHMLgUfQgJfdt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------34E64B62C8DBB512A2094BBA" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------34E64B62C8DBB512A2094BBA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/03/2020 13:31, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > I was actually wondering whether a non-technical draft devoted to > framing and discussing issues of consent ... in the selection > of DNS resolvers, I think that's a terrible idea. It'd be pointless because there is no meaningful consent involved - if people do not know that the DNS exists they cannot reasonably be asked for any real consent about it. This kind of fiction is used by organisations of all kinds in the tech industry generally and the web to fool users and nothing else (IMO). See also Steve Bellovin's recent IETF plenary talk on why all the "consent" stuff is nonsensical. I do think there could be scope for an IETF document that says "people can't consent to things they don't understand about the Internet" and that could even be a useful BCP ("IETF specifications MUST NOT discuss user consent as that is fictional because..."). However I doubt we'd get rough consensus for that. (It's tempting to try though:-) And that's definitely not in scope for this WG. (I elided "and privacy" in my quote from Vittorio above, because documenting those issues seems fine to me.) 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<787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146746F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314653F6@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <563e2b0b-8c6c-4921-813d-f8419b66c737@www.fastmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146746F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:05:19 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "mohamed.boucadair" , "add@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 05:05:44 -0000 On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, at 23:58, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > (1) For example, the domain name provided in RA/DHCP will be used to > retrieve supported DoH services following methods such as those in > draft-ietf-doh-resolver-associated-doh. I note that you proposed yet another method for resolution in addition to the three in that document. Given the plethora of options we have, with no principles driving our decision-making process, it might be time for us to collectively determine what those principles might be. > I see some advantages in > restricting the information to be conveyed by the network to a domain > name and a of IP addresses as we don't need a change to the network > configuration to reflect a change of DoH services. I see only the disadvantages inherent in splitting the configuration between different domains. I know that grovelling around in DHCP/RA can be a nightmare (especially for ISPs who might be faced with outdated CPE), but once you accept the need to do that, it's not that much harder to ensure all the configuration is there. Besides, you shouldn't need to change the URL often: https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI > (2) RFC8484 defines only a single variable "dns" but future specs can > define other URI templates with other variables: How validation will be > done by DHCP clients? Or should DHCP clients "blindly" pass that > templates to DoH clients that will proceed with the validation? I think that can easy. URI templates generally tolerate the addition of new field well. If someone adds {?disable-dnssec} to the template and you don't know how to generate that, then you don't need to add it and everything works out. You can build templates that don't work in the presence of extensions, but that is something we can manage as we add extensions. From nobody Tue Mar 10 23:28:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331FD3A1305 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 23:28:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VpIDReAWh6r5 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 23:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E4C53A12FE for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 23:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id d63so787991oig.6 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 23:28:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CoAYNxfdouElPNqm6AvL0QlWMdrOqFi7PGd/iSZbqL0=; b=FlXuTbleFeklfPFPzejTOQw3M1WVW+2z1KByR6CYWnu0br+IZu4jJEtedzbOBUdNwr E9OX/lNEltxWaccPvk3DfiBst7BZ8zKdErMSNeKenhmRIx3bkkhnEtsZ7D/MQ9K2Uf9m urYgU/FGiqPgrMcXAUmfKlzjGCiOBIlpDhTOvHEHsYHIDiwkMvMZrUtoC8qBGOS6GIS8 utSp5q8c16yApbQScGWaP0gHWBIDSFPD84VcIVRRIwsXxkr7eeRSnuHImozNNusshmgH gHdbKjrxSH0JLteIVyan20JCiowBxMtz0wU77diHtoJb9A/fQQ/hp/3Sp9F9fziVDjiT f//w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CoAYNxfdouElPNqm6AvL0QlWMdrOqFi7PGd/iSZbqL0=; b=O3yhqEsxt0YU/DCiNqmHLbso2VEJ9xxqG7pkhQ9H72eCzloJuBGIO2q+h/IB3gW2be JkJ6PJFuj6rzA+VdOkHH4ivBz05ZNhkCQI1pbMq1mikmvRN+9PS0Lr9UymnKEUxwJKKr Ddl+IW0cyjIvMffgyfG16ghN6On1KBRTtlBTE5T9IMR3K+pswetOfn/b+6NEnubewGbE pH9fsr5vpdK8USmLjaSFwVdW6vY69PE8QVe0ndYosR12rXs3UvAPWUgAOqY9bBoa1f2d 87TlAuasWm4UeMKmSNIhJhfRtjsIA64nmvp6ZoJYHloGn/qEepzSpOaXVdR1Za2Un6GP 6Osw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1Haf6MT6dRC6ijk8hqCVSM9e2p+yUqHV30tXLF6yqq0EmnbJ6+ mzLu/HkmDg6RZDqPczKTD6b3sFRkSF6C5iSgZMI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvFKZZdsAYwMmq2DVA0vldMPvERKuT5SlA+NpVLUgk0QDfNap4c8nIUVvK6lU2L4BCWljQTNa1IWY+yeL1WnaI= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ab4b:: with SMTP id u72mr902285oie.97.1583908094758; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 23:28:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314653F6@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <563e2b0b-8c6c-4921-813d-f8419b66c737@www.fastmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146746F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9d7df5dd-feb6-420c-b526-020137c745a7@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9d7df5dd-feb6-420c-b526-020137c745a7@www.fastmail.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 23:28:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: "mohamed.boucadair" , "add@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000058534205a08e579c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 06:28:39 -0000 --00000000000058534205a08e579c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:05 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, at 23:58, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > (1) For example, the domain name provided in RA/DHCP will be used to > > retrieve supported DoH services following methods such as those in > > draft-ietf-doh-resolver-associated-doh. > > I note that you proposed yet another method for resolution in addition to > the three in that document. Given the plethora of options we have, with no > principles driving our decision-making process, it might be time for us to > collectively determine what those principles might be. > Without even trying to be complete, I'd offer that requirements should probably include: * allowing clients to bootstrap to encrypted DNS in the fewest exchanges practical * recognize that modern clients have to detect and pass any captive portals and that this may sometimes/often/always-in-practice require Do53 * support Provisioning Domains specifically and fate-sharing generally [1] [1] imagine two RAs from two different ISPs on the same LAN segment; a client may have to make consistent use of the RA information to use any encrypted DNS info within that RA > I see some advantages in > > restricting the information to be conveyed by the network to a domain > > name and a of IP addresses as we don't need a change to the network > > configuration to reflect a change of DoH services. > > I see only the disadvantages inherent in splitting the configuration > between different domains. > > I know that grovelling around in DHCP/RA can be a nightmare (especially > for ISPs who might be faced with outdated CPE), but once you accept the > need to do that, it's not that much harder to ensure all the configuration > is there. Besides, you shouldn't need to change the URL often: > https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI > > > (2) RFC8484 defines only a single variable "dns" but future specs can > > define other URI templates with other variables: How validation will be > > done by DHCP clients? Or should DHCP clients "blindly" pass that > > templates to DoH clients that will proceed with the validation? > > I think that can easy. URI templates generally tolerate the addition of > new field well. If someone adds {?disable-dnssec} to the template and you > don't know how to generate that, then you don't need to add it and > everything works out. You can build templates that don't work in the > presence of extensions, but that is something we can manage as we add > extensions. > > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > --00000000000058534205a08e579c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:05 PM Mart= in Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net&g= t; wrote:
On Tue= , Mar 10, 2020, at 23:58, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> (1) For example, the domain name provided in RA/DHCP will be used to <= br> > retrieve supported DoH services following methods such as those in > draft-ietf-doh-resolver-associated-doh.

I note that you proposed yet another method for resolution in addition to t= he three in that document.=C2=A0 Given the plethora of options we have, wit= h no principles driving our decision-making process, it might be time for u= s to collectively determine what those principles might be.

Without even trying to be complete, I'd offer that= requirements should probably include:

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 * allowing=C2=A0clients to bootstrap to encrypted DNS in the fewest exc= hanges practical
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * recognize that modern clients ha= ve to detect and pass any captive portals and that this may sometimes/often= /always-in-practice require Do53
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * support Provisio= ning Domains specifically and fate-sharing generally [1]

[1] imagine two RAs from two different ISPs on the same LAN segment;= a client may have to make consistent use of the RA information to use any = encrypted DNS info within that RA

> I see some advantages in
> restricting the information to be conveyed by the network to a domain =
> name and a of IP addresses as we don't need a change to the networ= k
> configuration to reflect a change of DoH services.

I see only the disadvantages inherent in splitting the configuration betwee= n different domains.

I know that grovelling around in DHCP/RA can be a nightmare (especially for= ISPs who might be faced with outdated CPE), but once you accept the need t= o do that, it's not that much harder to ensure all the configuration is= there.=C2=A0 Besides, you shouldn't need to change the URL often: https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI

> (2) RFC8484 defines only a single variable "dns" but future = specs can
> define other URI templates with other variables: How validation will b= e
> done by DHCP clients? Or should DHCP clients "blindly" pass = that
> templates to DoH clients that will proceed with the validation?

I think that can easy.=C2=A0 URI templates generally tolerate the addition = of new field well.=C2=A0 If someone adds {?disable-dnssec} to the template = and you don't know how to generate that, then you don't need to add= it and everything works out.=C2=A0 You can build templates that don't = work in the presence of extensions, but that is something we can manage as = we add extensions.

--
Add mailing list
Add@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add
--00000000000058534205a08e579c-- From nobody Wed Mar 11 02:03:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3DFC3A1542 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 02:03:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vDuHHJ_KZXzY for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 02:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B77B3A1541 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 02:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.8]) by opfedar24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48cmGJ0hLcz5vvv; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:03:36 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1583917416; bh=IiJjtnrYEOwyoJyOX2X0zcangvtlfnm9w9FYq50Q+4U=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=PuVOQYu2eOu8J+rvn+g00V9ZUrpb9qHu4ZcHRi2ZDrpJuAQ2MyYRfI9VC0nl6FJrE 8CN1uMvYcBZfq9wUb9ruWzwl1U2YPu5ZnS7C2/vZEbBJ074wOllrvKNCPQPxUBFS7R 0FdCTRYcw459DBoWMR/M4CntH2ZpB7vbkX/s+ZNb5CyD/g2sPYb04Fd2RH8dG9z4cT Bfbfp97zHH7k84frCJhKjPO9LjD/+LCCODS5eWVqKaiHH97acsa9w6sJn02zTVV3cw iEKlLVnx59rcPLb2BE0Mx1YS4clNBewX3sAgE7hDAyrxRPVPSC1KZtMsaHFvshPZOu SugOXT8QKzYyg== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.89]) by opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48cmGH6tLcz3wbN; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:03:35 +0100 (CET) From: To: Vittorio Bertola , "ADD Mailing list" Thread-Topic: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV9sKnMlI8YwggNUaDHn8/0RdIKqhCAi6A Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:03:35 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031468931@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146547F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <65350aa9-6e23-2449-b6bf-f7fcf6a98c11@cs.tcd.ie> <1420261582.37944.1583834398098@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1420261582.37944.1583834398098@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:03:40 -0000 Hi Vittorio,=20 Please see inline.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Add [mailto:add-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Vittorio Bertola > Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 10 mars 2020 11:00 > =C0=A0: Stephen Farrell; ADD Mailing list > Objet=A0: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Il 09/03/2020 14:05 Stephen Farrell ha > scritto: > > > > But my main comment is that the home router that does > > almost all DNS might not be provided by the ISP so any > > discovery or similar protocol ought not make that > > assumption. I recognise that that's a corner-case >=20 > Yes, it's an infrequent case, but I would not call it a corner case. > At least in Europe, there is regulation that requires all ISPs to > allow users to buy and deploy any CPE they like. [Med] Agree (assuming the CPE is compliant with the technical specification= to access the service published by providers). Unmanaged CPEs can use the DNS configuration supplied by the network or the= user can change that configuration to point to a public resolver. This is = similar to what is already discussed in the draft: Some ISPs rely upon external resolvers (e.g., outsourced service or public resolvers); these ISPs provide their customers with the IP addresses of these resolvers. These addresses are typically configured on CPEs using the same mechanisms listed above. Likewise, users can modify the default DNS configuration of their CPEs (e.g., ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ supplied by their ISP) to configure their favorite DNS servers. This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ document permits such deployments. I updated the draft to make this explicit. You may check at: https://github= .com/boucadair/draft-btw-add-home-network/blob/master/draft-btw-add-home-03= .txt=20 3. Sample Deployment Scenarios . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3.1. Managed CPEs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3.2. Unmanaged CPEs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 Do we need to say more? Thanks.=20 Also, it is > relatively common, for smart users that couldn't get their ISP to do > without the CPE, to deploy another router in front (LAN-side) of the > CPE. This happens, for example, because the CPE has the appropriate > fiber termination but the user's desired home router has not, but has > other features that the user needs. So indeed these are use cases that > have to be supported. [Med] If the internal CPE does not embed a forwarder, that CPE "relays" the= DNS information received from the ISP-supplied CPE or use the one set by t= he user. From a DNS standpoint, this is similar to the scenario above.=20 If the internal CPE embeds a forwarder, the procedure we define for bootstr= apping with an ISP DoH server + redirection to the forwarder on the CPE doe= s not apply (Section 7 of the I-D).=20 Considerations such as those discussed in Section 5.2 will need to be follo= wed by the host/user. Assuming that setup, the internal CPE can use the opt= ions defined in the draft (if it supports them) to announce itself as a DoH= resolver. Of course, if the user assigns a static address to the internal = CPE, it can configure that @ directly on the hosts. Discovery is thus not r= elevant in such case.=20 I'm afraid that we are getting into very specific setups. I suggest to leav= e this one out for the moment and focus on the scenarios that require less = involvement from the user.=20 What do you think?=20 From nobody Wed Mar 11 03:11:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246B33A164E for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:11:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLguSinjwTrZ for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2014D3A166D for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48cnmk4NsSz5vq5; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:11:34 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1583921494; bh=URBY44rnOYSOXmzTJ+gBZjIYf2/EXB7wMm0lJ2yQLSg=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=PgNawgRCa99+HqPUKrLVNxFZNNhGkbhlV4CPjRxKaIQQ19n6ey9MtEo7NX0DnjgFC BXf+641Yha0q6GGJf2yR6hPHO9MoCLXYOjckGWK4wKmNUXpbL6qpzjYaguNM72/oNI gNTiL8GwbbsfK3dG8YP5SUK/460bcz5jotjDhrFUYf/Tgxo90fQoGds6RlRMVOshE1 gZuCwZsVXkh8P1plKFvnrcKqyym+6p/XXomHcpoCTkCUUWAyQYFCg5RdMGXwutvBBH sZ0+Zy2t8KUgMN5gru3/M9cHQOUtmeBPaPkT0c9ppHTSvznYN1LOcytf/P7nBfPsh/ 1g9NxHJcZG/jQ== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.35]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48cnmk3HNMz8sYb; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:11:34 +0100 (CET) From: To: Martin Thomson , "add@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV92KoMlI8YwggNUaDHn8/0RdIKqhDGTXg Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:11:33 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031469A64@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314653F6@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <563e2b0b-8c6c-4921-813d-f8419b66c737@www.fastmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146746F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9d7df5dd-feb6-420c-b526-020137c745a7@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9d7df5dd-feb6-420c-b526-020137c745a7@www.fastmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:11:46 -0000 Hi Martin, Please see inline. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Martin Thomson [mailto:mt@lowentropy.net] > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 11 mars 2020 06:05 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; add@ietf.org > Objet=A0: Re: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt >=20 > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, at 23:58, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > (1) For example, the domain name provided in RA/DHCP will be used to > > retrieve supported DoH services following methods such as those in > > draft-ietf-doh-resolver-associated-doh. >=20 > I note that you proposed yet another method for resolution in addition > to the three in that document. Given the plethora of options we have, > with no principles driving our decision-making process, it might be > time for us to collectively determine what those principles might be. [Med] Indeed, this is what I meant by "we need to think about the overall m= odel". >=20 > > I see some advantages in > > restricting the information to be conveyed by the network to a > domain > > name and a of IP addresses as we don't need a change to the network > > configuration to reflect a change of DoH services. >=20 > I see only the disadvantages inherent in splitting the configuration > between different domains. >=20 > I know that grovelling around in DHCP/RA can be a nightmare > (especially for ISPs who might be faced with outdated CPE), but once > you accept the need to do that, it's not that much harder to ensure > all the configuration is there. Besides, you shouldn't need to change > the URL often: https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI [Med] ... but still the design should allow for new services to be defined = and others withdrawn.=20 Things may be "easy" to manage when both the connectivity and the supplied = DNS server are managed by the same ISP, but that is not the case if the ISP= relies on a third party service or the user changes the config to point to= , e.g., ContainerPI:=20 * unfiltered: https://dns.containerpi.com/dns-query * Filtered, blocks adult content: https://dns.containerpi.com/doh/family-fi= lter/ * Filtered, blocks malicious domains only: https://dns.containerpi.com/doh/= secure-filter/ If a new service is added to that list (e.g., https://dns.containerpi.com/d= oh/secure-family-filter/) or some of them are removed, there is a need to c= oordinate ** out-of-band ** in order to maintain the configuration supplied= to the customers up to date. At least in this example, it is suboptimal to= "split the configuration between different domains." (ISP vs. DNS provider= ). >=20 > > (2) RFC8484 defines only a single variable "dns" but future specs > can > > define other URI templates with other variables: How validation will > be > > done by DHCP clients? Or should DHCP clients "blindly" pass that > > templates to DoH clients that will proceed with the validation? >=20 > I think that can easy. URI templates generally tolerate the addition > of new field well. If someone adds {?disable-dnssec} to the template > and you don't know how to generate that, then you don't need to add it > and everything works out. You can build templates that don't work in > the presence of extensions, but that is something we can manage as we > add extensions. [Med] Practically, we can't guarantee that because we don't know how these = extensions will be defined. I would like to avoid requiring an update to th= e DHCP/RA uri validation code in order to support new extensions.=20 From nobody Thu Mar 12 09:29:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D4F3A0D33 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:29:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xhnYoxuk2iW3 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5CDB3A0D2F for ; 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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 17:29:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 17:29:09 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, ADD Mailing list Message-ID: <1775589136.46589.1584030549581@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031468931@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146547F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <65350aa9-6e23-2449-b6bf-f7fcf6a98c11@cs.tcd.ie> <1420261582.37944.1583834398098@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031468931@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [EXT] RE: TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 16:29:14 -0000 > Il 11/03/2020 10:03 mohamed.boucadair@orange.com ha scritto: > > [Med] If the internal CPE does not embed a forwarder, that CPE "relays" the DNS information received from the ISP-supplied CPE or use the one set by the user. From a DNS standpoint, this is similar to the scenario above. > > If the internal CPE embeds a forwarder, the procedure we define for bootstrapping with an ISP DoH server + redirection to the forwarder on the CPE does not apply (Section 7 of the I-D). > > Considerations such as those discussed in Section 5.2 will need to be followed by the host/user. Assuming that setup, the internal CPE can use the options defined in the draft (if it supports them) to announce itself as a DoH resolver. Of course, if the user assigns a static address to the internal CPE, it can configure that @ directly on the hosts. Discovery is thus not relevant in such case. > > I'm afraid that we are getting into very specific setups. I suggest to leave this one out for the moment and focus on the scenarios that require less involvement from the user. > > What do you think? I think we could mention the use case and make sure that it is not prevented by the architecture we design, assuming that the user is smart (these are not "basic user" situations) and needs to actively configure his/her devices. For the rest, I agree that this is not a priority. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Thu Mar 12 13:36:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C414B3A08E0 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:36:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com header.b=2xrQWFXG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com 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with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7829F3A1400 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 02:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTPS id 48f0qd72MNz5xvY; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:33:17 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1584091998; bh=04KcQOg+IhOyr8kPX118b8Vi9xeE44F23kPheo6LRlM=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=BXUM6xQ0hstlbR1QfQhHAwkxKcUBSPeHHI7iro/1/fVNXoOhd8xe8XyoJcFecC8nG ONrhO0fLxDQX8Q2F7W7wD2jIlkTTYsa9zjP570p+r1kRkOsyQHzgGD/u2MhzXBgDYv T4inNpAtHcxzE8e6oQnVf+tcK50U6tIF6RIH5S/GVOaeeOLsXAJx5YjgX4rEs9qQv0 85f0+xqOmLzEcfVzQeCREVnpWRhuJPeRzvvVoKosa82AlAm5xX+P4OpGyQbVmizN3N KYuPPLrFxjAyqZJy7nMNB4A3E43dUReQBQhJ6zcaoTZEDa/zHjzIDeGqpkoUX8CYsE BfL7E8oFhyPwA== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTPS id 48f0qd68xQzDq81; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:33:17 +0100 (CET) From: To: Vittorio Bertola , ADD Mailing list Thread-Topic: [EXT] RE: [Add] TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV+Itc7IckhCEoGkGwLgd3r2vMrqhGQ2pg Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 09:33:17 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146E715@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158330934617.29404.4287578882183435520@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303145E6CC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <19edb851-603e-bb5d-f170-be9f1d796738@cs.tcd.ie> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93303146547F@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <65350aa9-6e23-2449-b6bf-f7fcf6a98c11@cs.tcd.ie> <1420261582.37944.1583834398098@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031468931@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1775589136.46589.1584030549581@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1775589136.46589.1584030549581@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [EXT] RE: TR: I-D Action: draft-btw-add-home-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 09:33:22 -0000 SGkgVml0dG9yaW8sDQoNClNvdW5kcyBnb29kIHRvIG1lLiANCg0KV2Ugd2lsbCB1cGRhdGUgdGhl 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: barryleiba@computer.org, add@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.121.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158413314709.3136.13191413897587702542@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:59:07 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Add] add - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 20:59:19 -0000 Dear Amy Vezza, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. add Session 1 (2:00 requested) Tuesday, 24 March 2020, Session I 2000-2200 Room Name: Virtual Track 1 size: None --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/sessions/add.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Adaptive DNS Discovery Area Name: Internet Area Session Requester: Amy Vezza Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: capport dhc dnsop doh dprive opsawg mops wpack People who must be present: Barry Leiba Glenn Deen David C Lawrence Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Mar 16 06:11:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com 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(add@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-btw-add-home-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHV+5PMvwFTEGB0tUi0gRR2ugmuUKhLMJ3Q Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:11:41 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314712F9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158436402635.23433.14803005914378943431@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158436402635.23433.14803005914378943431@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Add] TR: New Version Notification for draft-btw-add-home-04.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:11:47 -0000 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ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgDQoNCg0KUGxlYXNlIG5vdGUgdGhh dCBpdCBtYXkgdGFrZSBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20gdGhlIHRpbWUgb2Ygc3VibWlz c2lvbg0KdW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVkIHZlcnNpb24gYW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBh dCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCg0KVGhlIElFVEYgU2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCg0KDQotLSANCkFkZCBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkFkZEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9hZGQNCg== From nobody Tue Mar 17 07:01:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1483A07D0 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2020 07:01:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, 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Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=Mhisn67/UJhsyH+uULWkmZtE1Br2UEXiCrsnxho+KNzyhySYoXKcUHm7qO/c62L+6 KCUF3sARrkSoCEnjTq6tqTdmL/AFqPAsvjP8vp5CihtDJer4N6DTGA83/GxI0ta1IF ZXo42zWeGKSHEuharMzGpgtPktMyyEKIFGPYCTHJqpM3/9enAD3cdkdMR9pZNtAO6u f74SrOBgJbMOOJ8C9S8Vmxi9aSMRlOBuh7sAvPG2TrammpTaUEWIavDN7VsZbPkvss o54uimrv0EahzEVpDu/cGggqJw1Y8QaYcCMx3TsRkSADRTKNrjsYJ5z2WaWHm0Mfkr wziem8NhiTWbA== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.48]) by opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48hZbQ34KWzDq83; Tue, 17 Mar 2020 15:01:38 +0100 (CET) From: To: Iain Sharp , "ADD Mailing list (add@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-btw-add-home-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHV+5PMvwFTEGB0tUi0gRR2ugmuUKhLMJ3QgAFng2CAADBRQA== Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:01:37 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314722A5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158436402635.23433.14803005914378943431@ietfa.amsl.com> 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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-btw-add-home-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHV+5PMvwFTEGB0tUi0gRR2ugmuUKhLMJ3QgAFng2CAADBRQIAACf6ggAFDzIA= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:29:42 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031475A0A@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158436402635.23433.14803005914378943431@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314712F9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314722A5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] New Version Notification for draft-btw-add-home-04.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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bh=uQH9X82C5549pNJts48kZpitHvHTxjYzoc2tQP1771k=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=Vl2DPqOeRoO86k48rti5SgD88cvVRhCE4VAqMQQ/Qb5nEaXDQ6bGAQ5fO109ckqAq wsLEAU65ESyGxVm1wChLEwpwj1kjoRCqD7WI1sqoM2knwrFL2DA4sB/jlCO7YhhfJU BJqTkPhqrn211500fDg9eF1lTQaEYRTiyfqe4uShT+N7AaDS0XicirmYXraK+iiG/v P6RLkdNrqdlVSxQMkVvYBGahaOjCYRmCEHF46IL1qTl1cdKvCvKle2LvksdMRm+P3H cTdroYqAiVfy8WS+aYhIr5LtWDhpOn+UW9amx1ZmQO/oAtQZwc0f4aoncrao9qZizq 9pn+ax3zidMxg== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.38]) by opfedar03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48j6FM51cGzCqkj; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:47:51 +0100 (CET) From: To: Iain Sharp , "ADD Mailing list (add@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-btw-add-home-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHV+5PMvwFTEGB0tUi0gRR2ugmuUKhLMJ3QgAFng2CAADBRQIAACf6ggAFDzICAAATc8IAACQfw Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 10:47:50 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031475AA4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <158436402635.23433.14803005914378943431@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314712F9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314722A5@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031475A0A@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] New Version Notification for draft-btw-add-home-04.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 10:47:56 -0000 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header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y8aLTd9e4Bzs for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 00:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F1833A23A8 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 00:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id p12so1246084ilm.7 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 00:03:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=BMgukSJlkBrFLDz2Bjg2eejoVP6qscgJE6DivtzWKsI=; b=VsjDCfy9P44AnCwvItEKS3RQlaj+Vr6AZ8u4U17GyHV1cO8FVepEfTkWOFhhZD1oy1 vLwGQ7oBZsTuNOSRRnn9l9BkyJ/wxTTEwRxJ7BcWTnFvqR7KKc6zEvs9n5i2MkY8Jr3E 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ADFU+vuWvFunGCP0jN1o7ZrsVseX/ZdUkNMs4NoadK9UcakItcps+9GH3m2SB/6+HTYLHG9PFJ/n19VtlrilRSu6h4E= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5dd9:: with SMTP id e86mr1815183ilg.214.1584601390780; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 00:03:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158459242027.28809.18065455318555162919@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158459242027.28809.18065455318555162919@ietfa.amsl.com> From: tirumal reddy Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 12:32:59 +0530 Message-ID: To: ADD Mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002821c05a12fc3db" Archived-At: Subject: [Add] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection-00.txt X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:03:19 -0000 --00000000000002821c05a12fc3db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection-00 defines a mechanism that allows communication of DNS resolver information to DNS clients for use in selection decisions. It defines a mechanism for a DNS server to communicate its filtering policy and privacy statement URL to DNS clients. This information is cryptographically signed to attest its authenticity. Comments and suggestions are more than welcome. Cheers, -Tiru ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 10:03 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection-00.txt To: Dan Wing , Tirumaleswar Reddy.K < kondtir@gmail.com>, Michael C. Richardson , Mohamed Boucadair A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection Revision: 00 Title: DNS Server Selection: DNS Server Information with Assertion Token Document date: 2020-03-18 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 22 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection Abstract: The document defines a mechanism that allows communication of DNS resolver information to DNS clients for use in selection decisions. In particuler, the document defines a mechanism for a DNS server to communicate its filtering policy and its privacy statement URL to DNS clients. This information is cryptographically signed to attest its authenticity. Such information is used for the selection of DNS resolvers. Typically, evaluating the DNS privacy statement, filtering policy, and the signatory, DNS clients with minimum human intervention can select the DNS server that best supports the user's desired privacy and filtering policy. This assertion is useful for DNS-over-TLS and DNS-over-HTTPS servers that are either public resolvers or are discovered on a local network. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --00000000000002821c05a12fc3db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-add-server= -policy-selection-00 defines a mechanism that allows communication of D= NS resolver information to DNS clients for use in selection decisions.=C2= =A0It defines a mechanism for a DNS server to communicate its filtering pol= icy and privacy statement URL to DNS clients. This information is cryptogra= phically signed to attest its=C2=A0authenticity.

Comments and sugge= stions are more than welcome.

Cheers,
-Tiru

---------- Forwarded mes= sage ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Ma= r 2020 at 10:03
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-add-se= rver-policy-selection-00.txt
To: Dan Wing <dwing-ietf@fuggles.com>, Tirumaleswar Reddy.K <kondtir@gmail.com>, Michael C. Ri= chardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.= ca>, Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-add-server-policy= -selection
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DNS Server Selection: DNS Server I= nformation with Assertion Token
Document date:=C2=A0 2020-03-18
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 22
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-red= dy-add-server-policy-selection-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-add-server-polic= y-selection/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection-0= 0
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-add-server-p= olicy-selection


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The document defines a mechanism that allows communication of = DNS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0resolver information to DNS clients for use in selection decis= ions.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In particuler, the document defines a mechanism for a DNS serv= er to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate its filtering policy and its privacy statement URL= to DNS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0clients.=C2=A0 This information is cryptographically signed to= attest its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0authenticity.=C2=A0 Such information is used for the selection= of DNS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0resolvers.=C2=A0 Typically, evaluating the DNS privacy stateme= nt,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0filtering policy, and the signatory, DNS clients with minimum = human
=C2=A0 =C2=A0intervention can select the DNS server that best supports the = user's
=C2=A0 =C2=A0desired privacy and filtering policy.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This assertion is useful for DNS-over-TLS and DNS-over-HTTPS s= ervers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that are either public resolvers or are discovered on a local<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0network.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


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<158472480760.13422.7044889185366360981@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:20:07 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Add] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting WebEx Invitation: ADD X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:20:08 -0000 ADD Session at IETF 107 Tuesday, March 24, 2020 20:00-22:00 (UTC) Join Meeting: Meeting number (access code): 310 867 829 Meeting password: j3Y4MQZPHN3 IETF 107 Agenda: From nobody Fri Mar 20 11:22:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09C23A0DE2 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=A//7GUTeUWeLYUvJrdZjipT/H3nnucCBleatUVpArIw=; b=tR3Cnhz2BAfoULsg5ynfKGJQIMVUOKO3Jd3l+DazW7KfEyeYmcDHmKH7SQJStHN2UW Q9M/bVTELKGM9VSGYh+4va+6hQVHmMYMHhUepnEnKC4Hvx4T8X9jxUp0cUmC17+ShR0a yv7ziXGaXkUIVACXd3GydsaUiRFA0v7wa398TiUa473In6J9Nacb3M36KCyHN6CiYB4R VBvhTV3sgJLifSnvLtxsiWKSccPgCLWNRkIJ1LCDuJT//PkCbBQVDfpScRvufyoMU+d2 8/uTh4Fh79z4wkjMvA1yUfaKTgKWosoo2I6+Bsz+un7Mp7utG0eqexIyOYxFD0OLmAqw uOdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A//7GUTeUWeLYUvJrdZjipT/H3nnucCBleatUVpArIw=; b=qj5xswZzTVouOtc+T3yACGAPm6/+OVeXWvDWYVTGG2YUKbODDRsuarJWVsjXV5ElyR qpB8N6H26YmuoagnH1Cwq3txHKDto/qoeYDbfPGJG9xSoaFI76tJZIZ/Eee2U3uWQr/+ /ep1A/uVwc2xqGuKo59pxx8dRX427S48n/6zrKLxGIn2ag1lAOWIvPssnhNIEnFmS07O 6Y76DGKUwsJ/FHud1CGufiG0O5KOIEBPwaNkPRGlmJA2bVhIAAXAAXmK1uU6tvor9e+O 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--00000000000096fa1a05a14d5dec Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000096fa1905a14d5deb" --00000000000096fa1905a14d5deb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted, Jari, Martin, In preparation for the first presentation on Tuesday, I've had another look through your draft and it's raised some questions in my mind. Section 3 introduces the premise that the client selects a set of trusted resolvers, excluding all less trusted ones. It doesn=E2=80=99t really say t= his, but I think each resolver in the set needs to be operated by a different party, otherwise the activity seems to be pointless. Do you agree? If you do, the premise implies the set must include at least one resolver NOT operated by the provider of the local network. We then get onto the problem briefly mentioned in section 6.2, namely different resolvers might have different policies with respect to blocking or filtering of queries that lead to clients receiving inconsistent answers If I compare the above to the set of perspectives outlined in ICANN SAC109, my expectation is that the resulting net change in the ability to meet their needs is as follows: 4.1 (Parents): Negative 4.2 (Enterprise Network Managers): Negative 4.3 (Dissidents, Protesters and Others): Positive 4.4 (Internet Service Providers): Negative Would you agree with this assessment? Or have I missed something crucial? I'm normally optimistic so let's assume there is a way to mitigate the negatives. Let=E2=80=99s now focus on whether the impact to privacy is alwa= ys positive. I think there is a case where it may be weaker than the status quo. Imagine a normal residential home. This one has five different wifi clients, with a single recursive resolver (A) outside the home, on the internet. This is shown below (apologies to anyone reading the plain text version). [image: Normal.png] Resolver A sees the merged traffic of all 5 clients, coming from a single IP address. With the client-based selection mode (section 4.1), and two resolvers chosen (A and B), those resolvers can learn more data about the specific clients: [image: With two resolvers.png] Of course A can individually separate clients 1, 3 and 5, because even though they share an IP address, they've all set up separate TLS sessions. Is this is a legitimate privacy issue? I would be grateful for your thoughts, either on the list or during the presentation on Tuesday. And if anyone on the list has a view, particularly if there is a way to modify the text such that negative impacts can be reduced, that would be most valuable. Thanks, Chris On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 18:01, Ted Hardie wrote: > Howdy, > > Jari, Martin, and I put together > draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection > to > start a discussion on whether DNS clients can improve their privacy throu= gh > the use of a set of multiple recursive resolver services. We think it > might be in scope for ADD, since the charter says the group "will focus o= n > discovery and selection of DNS resolvers" and this discusses the impact o= f > selecting more than one. > > Do the chairs and the working group agree? If so, can we ask for agenda > time at IETF 107 to present? > > thanks, > > Ted > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > --00000000000096fa1905a14d5deb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ted, Jari= , Martin,

In preparation for the first presentatio= n on Tuesday, I've had another look through your draft and it's rai= sed some questions in my mind.

Section 3=C2=A0intr= oduces the premise that the client selects a set of trusted resolvers, excl= uding all less trusted ones. It doesn=E2=80=99t really say this, but I thin= k each resolver in the set needs to be operated by a different party, other= wise the activity seems to be pointless. Do you agree?

=
If you do, the premise implies the set must include at least one resol= ver NOT operated by the provider of the local network.

=
We then get onto the problem briefly mentioned in section 6.2, namely =
=C2=A0=C2=A0 different resolvers might have di= fferent policies with
=C2=A0=C2=A0 respect to blocking or filtering of q= ueries that lead to clients
=C2=A0=C2=A0 receiving inconsistent answers<= /font>

If I compar= e the above to the set of perspectives outlined in ICANN SAC109, my expecta= tion is that the resulting net change in the ability to meet their needs is= as follows:

4.1 (Parents):=C2=A0 Negative
4.2 (Enterprise Network Managers):=C2=A0 Negative
4.3 (Disside= nts, Protesters and Others):=C2=A0 Positive
4.4 (Internet Service= Providers):=C2=A0 Negative

Would you agree with t= his assessment? Or have I missed something crucial?

I'm normally optimistic so let's assume there is a way to mitigat= e the negatives. Let=E2=80=99s now focus on whether the impact to privacy i= s always positive. I think there is a case where it may be weaker than the = status quo.

Imagine a normal residential home. Thi= s one has five different wifi clients, with a single recursive resolver (A)= outside the home, on the internet. This is shown below (apologies to anyon= e reading the plain text version).

3D"Normal.png"
Resolver A sees the merged traffic of all 5 clients, coming from a singl= e IP address.

With the client-based selection mode= (section 4.1), and two resolvers chosen (A and B), those resolvers can lea= rn more data about the specific clients:
3D"With=
Of co= urse A can individually separate clients 1, 3 and 5, because even though th= ey share an IP address, they've all set up separate TLS sessions.
=

Is this is a legitimate privacy issue?

I would be grateful for your thoughts, either on the list or durin= g the presentation on Tuesday. And if anyone on the list has a view, partic= ularly if there is a way to modify the text such that negative impacts can = be reduced, that would be most valuable.

Thanks,
Chris



On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 18:01, Ted= Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
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header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b1j66SRb1Izq for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F5813A0E9C for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id j5so8140402oij.1 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:24:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JikgZzQHIfPXJV8CNH4mbvG6MrpPrYQ4lwSmz4NBPT0=; b=kMqpdslkipkYnWGRkEk1fDktcr/aMhsNZp0q8wFMa1dPd5pc19kHQgxKiWKHbapf8d QksefGISwpoMivOVx0gjHgxNILhYJl3Lh/borJsTSGBHa8P3LT8KtSfwQnLCiCeHgzPC 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ADFU+vsO2kzKDHJ+EyYobRPwr9ud+pNDa9eyCAKsJdaBSVB10hOwcnj1Zr/iJbi4CXGCz4QT7EndT3k5Tdz9GpxnitQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:cc81:: with SMTP id c123mr8107931oig.74.1584739443664; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:24:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:23:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Chris Box (BT)" Cc: ADD Mailing list , Jari Arkko , Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0000000000009afd4505a14fe7f8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:24:08 -0000 --0000000000009afd4505a14fe7f8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009afd4405a14fe7f7" --0000000000009afd4405a14fe7f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, Thanks for the review. Replies in-line. On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:22 AM Chris Box (BT) wrote: > Ted, Jari, Martin, > > In preparation for the first presentation on Tuesday, I've had another > look through your draft and it's raised some questions in my mind. > > Section 3 introduces the premise that the client selects a set of trusted > resolvers, excluding all less trusted ones. It doesn=E2=80=99t really say= this, but > I think each resolver in the set needs to be operated by a different part= y, > otherwise the activity seems to be pointless. Do you agree? > > If you do, the premise implies the set must include at least one resolver > NOT operated by the provider of the local network. > If you look at section 4.1, you'll see that one of the strategies is "to distribute each different client to a different resolver." If the client's trusted set includes the local network resolver, it might well be associated with that network. Because this strategy is focused on the aggregate distribution of DNS queries, there are a lot of cases where the local network being trusted means the current association methods don't actually change for some clients. > > We then get onto the problem briefly mentioned in section 6.2, namely > different resolvers might have different policies with > respect to blocking or filtering of queries that lead to clients > receiving inconsistent answers > > If you put resolvers with different policies into the trusted set, that can happen. If the resolvers are transparent about their policies, this seems less likely to happen, because you will put resolvers into the set only when you are both confident of their privacy-preserving behavior and that their policies match your desires. > If I compare the above to the set of perspectives outlined in ICANN > SAC109, my expectation is that the resulting net change in the ability to > meet their needs is as follows: > > 4.1 (Parents): Negative > 4.2 (Enterprise Network Managers): Negative > 4.3 (Dissidents, Protesters and Others): Positive > 4.4 (Internet Service Providers): Negative > > Would you agree with this assessment? Or have I missed something crucial? > > I'm not familiar enough with SAC 109 to comment, so I'll leave that to others. My personal belief is that the ability to choose what resolvers belong in the set is important enough that it should map to the client's controller (which might be an individual, the parent of child, the enterprise owner of an employee device). > I'm normally optimistic so let's assume there is a way to mitigate the > negatives. Let=E2=80=99s now focus on whether the impact to privacy is al= ways > positive. I think there is a case where it may be weaker than the status > quo. > > Imagine a normal residential home. This one has five different wifi > clients, with a single recursive resolver (A) outside the home, on the > internet. This is shown below (apologies to anyone reading the plain text > version). > > [image: Normal.png] > Resolver A sees the merged traffic of all 5 clients, coming from a single > IP address. > > With the client-based selection mode (section 4.1), and two resolvers > chosen (A and B), those resolvers can learn more data about the specific > clients: > [image: With two resolvers.png] > Of course A can individually separate clients 1, 3 and 5, because even > though they share an IP address, they've all set up separate TLS sessions= . > > I find your graphic a bit confusing, because you are not treating the stub resolver in the home router as if it were a part of the calculus here. If I understand things correctly, if those clients were actively choosing to use a resolver here (rather than taking one by association), they would be choosing the home router, rather than A (let's call the home router resolver H). They presumably believe H has policies that match the ones they prefer; A is opaque to them. But H sees the traffic of all five clients; that's the common trade-off there. > Is this is a legitimate privacy issue? > > As I said, there are trade-offs here. In any case where your query traffic goes to a recursive resolver, the number of clients sharing that resolver increases the anonymity set for traffic analyzed upstream of that resolver. In your first example, because your A is upstream of H, H's clients get an anonymity set size of 5 with respect to A. In your example two, for traffic analyzed upstream of A or B, the anonymity set size is likely to be much higher, but the tradeoff is that that A (or B) has a more direct view of a larger number of clients. > I would be grateful for your thoughts, either on the list or during the > presentation on Tuesday. And if anyone on the list has a view, particular= ly > if there is a way to modify the text such that negative impacts can be > reduced, that would be most valuable. > > thanks again for the review, Ted > Thanks, > Chris > > > > On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 18:01, Ted Hardie wrote: > >> Howdy, >> >> Jari, Martin, and I put together >> draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection >> to >> start a discussion on whether DNS clients can improve their privacy thro= ugh >> the use of a set of multiple recursive resolver services. We think it >> might be in scope for ADD, since the charter says the group "will focus = on >> discovery and selection of DNS resolvers" and this discusses the impact = of >> selecting more than one. >> >> Do the chairs and the working group agree? If so, can we ask for agenda >> time at IETF 107 to present? >> >> thanks, >> >> Ted >> -- >> Add mailing list >> Add@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add >> > --0000000000009afd4405a14fe7f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Chris,

T= hanks for the review.=C2=A0 Replies in-line.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020= at 11:22 AM Chris Box (BT) <chris.box.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Ted, Jari, Martin,

In preparation = for the first presentation on Tuesday, I've had another look through yo= ur draft and it's raised some questions in my mind.

Section 3=C2=A0introduces the premise that the client selects a set o= f trusted resolvers, excluding all less trusted ones. It doesn=E2=80=99t re= ally say this, but I think each resolver in the set needs to be operated by= a different party, otherwise the activity seems to be pointless. Do you ag= ree?
=C2=A0
=
If you do,= the premise implies the set must include at least one resolver NOT operate= d by the provider of the local network.
=

If you look at sect= ion 4.1, you'll see that one of the strategies is "to distribute e= ach different client to a different resolver."=C2=A0 If the client'= ;s trusted set includes the local network resolver, it might well be associ= ated with that network.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Because this strategy is focused = on the aggregate distribution of DNS queries, there are a lot of cases wher= e the local network being trusted means the current association methods don= 't actually change for some clients.
=C2=A0

We then get onto th= e problem briefly mentioned in section 6.2, namely
=C2=A0=C2=A0 different resolvers might have different policies with=C2=A0=C2=A0 respect to blocking or filtering of queries that lead to clie= nts
=C2=A0=C2=A0 receiving inconsistent answers


If you put resolvers with differen= t policies into the trusted set, that can happen.=C2=A0 If the resolvers ar= e transparent about their policies, this seems less likely to happen, becau= se you will put resolvers into the set only when you are both confident of = their privacy-preserving behavior and that their policies match your desire= s.
=C2=A0
If I compare the above to the set of perspectives outlined in ICANN S= AC109, my expectation is that the resulting net change in the ability to me= et their needs is as follows:

4.1 (Parents):=C2=A0= Negative
4.2 (Enterprise Network Managers):=C2=A0 Negative
=
4.3 (Dissidents, Protesters and Others):=C2=A0 Positive
4.4 = (Internet Service Providers):=C2=A0 Negative

Would= you agree with this assessment? Or have I missed something crucial?
<= div>
=

I'm not familiar enough with SAC 109 to comment, so= I'll leave that to others.=C2=A0 My personal belief is that the abilit= y to choose what resolvers belong in the set is important enough that it sh= ould map to the client's controller (which might be an individual, the = parent of child, the enterprise owner of an employee device).=C2=A0

=C2=A0
I'm normally optimistic so let's assume there is a way= to mitigate the negatives. Let=E2=80=99s now focus on whether the impact t= o privacy is always positive. I think there is a case where it may be weake= r than the status quo.

Imagine a normal residentia= l home. This one has five different wifi clients, with a single recursive r= esolver (A) outside the home, on the internet. This is shown below (apologi= es to anyone reading the plain text version).

3D"Normal.png"
Resolver A sees the merged traffic of all 5 clients, coming f= rom a single IP address.

With the client-based sel= ection mode (section 4.1), and two resolvers chosen (A and B), those resolv= ers can learn more data about the specific clients:

Of course A can individually separate clients 1, 3 and 5, because eve= n though they share an IP address, they've all set up separate TLS sess= ions.

<= /blockquote>

I find your graphic a bit confusing, becaus= e you are not treating the stub resolver in the home router as if it were a= part of the calculus here.=C2=A0 If I understand things correctly, if thos= e clients were actively choosing to use a resolver here (rather than taking= one by association), they would be choosing the home router, rather than A= (let's call the home router resolver H).=C2=A0 They presumably believe= H has policies that match the ones they prefer; A is opaque to them.=C2=A0= But H sees the traffic of all five clients; that's the common trade-of= f there.

=C2=A0
Is this is a legitimate privacy issue?


As I said, there are trade-offs here.=C2=A0 In any case wh= ere your query traffic goes to a recursive resolver, the number of clients = sharing that resolver increases the anonymity set for traffic analyzed upst= ream of that resolver.=C2=A0 In your first example, because your A is upstr= eam of H, H's clients get an anonymity set size of 5 with respect to A.= =C2=A0 In your example two, for traffic analyzed upstream of A or B, the an= onymity set size is likely to be much higher, but the tradeoff is that that= A (or B) has a more direct view of a larger number of clients.
=C2=A0
I woul= d be grateful for your thoughts, either on the list or during the presentat= ion on Tuesday. And if anyone on the list has a view, particularly if there= is a way to modify the text such that negative impacts can be reduced, tha= t would be most valuable.


thanks again for the re= view,

Ted

=C2=A0
Thanks,
Chri= s



On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 18:01, Ted= Hardie <ted.iet= f@gmail.com> wrote:
Howdy,

Jari, Mart= in, and I put together draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection to start a discussion on whether DNS clients can improve their privacy thr= ough the use of a set of multiple recursive resolver services.=C2=A0 We thi= nk it might be in scope for ADD, since the charter says the group "wil= l focus on discovery and selection of DNS resolvers" and this discusse= s the impact of selecting more than one.=C2=A0

Do the chairs and the working group agree?=C2=A0 If so, can we= ask for agenda time at IETF 107 to present?=C2=A0
<= span style=3D"font-weight:normal">
thanks,

Ted
=
--
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Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U0yVGH6K1TCU for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F7223A10ED for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id m9so7783848ilq.12 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:11:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=I17rAO58gDkIZZk9fH1LEELlSnELT+xQdMiLPODFKmA=; b=bqI23mFVzlWtomjfpf0P2l+tJTGcvd8ucZyxd1R88g9VzTYlR7dWo+6V9u07H+aq+m huDUF9hIH5XRFDwvPJNvc21FSKGMoIXwWDwoVyl/yUcqSQlA6tPFRvYiv5GH+3HeRmhy 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ADFU+vvUrxqwmAFpAJ4w72KxrnzC8H9m+FVLH/ntPvJElm15bLLz8Nf+V1QFERyg72u5Al3Te5sbB+/hoiUBXl4KTK8= X-Received: by 2002:a92:9fd0:: with SMTP id z77mr11730712ilk.257.1584760313087; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:11:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:11:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Chris Box (BT)" Cc: Ted Hardie , ADD Mailing list , Jari Arkko , Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000840b3805a154c3e6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 03:11:56 -0000 --000000000000840b3805a154c3e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:23 AM Chris Box (BT) wrote: > > Of course A can individually separate clients 1, 3 and 5, because even > though they share an IP address, they've all set up separate TLS sessions. > Is this detailed enough? I'm not sure what you mean by "client", since each client could be one computer with multiple resolvers. For example, Firefox could be pointed at Cloudflare, while the system uses whatever DHCP says. That is certainly what my MacBook does. More subtly, the second diagram avoids all sorts of security problems along the path to the resolvers. A very common one is compromised home routers. thanks, Rob --000000000000840b3805a154c3e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:23 AM Chris Bo= x (BT) <chris.box.ietf@gmail= .com> wrote:

Of course A can individually separate clients 1, 3 = and 5, because even though they share an IP address, they've all set up= separate TLS sessions.

Is this detailed enough? I'm not sur= e what you mean by "client", since each client could be one compu= ter with multiple resolvers. For example, Firefox could be pointed at Cloud= flare, while the system uses whatever DHCP says. That is certainly what my = MacBook does.

More subtly, the second diagram avoi= ds all sorts of security problems along the path to the resolvers. A very c= ommon one is compromised home routers.

thanks,
Rob


--000000000000840b3805a154c3e6-- From nobody Sat Mar 21 09:32:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769D93A148C for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3vwwRre-g_vd for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F5413A0CB4 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id c9so934698qtw.7 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:32:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=o6CNjQxCnZkPoPso43gaDhFBPUHqy+szj86kwsZQvbo=; b=JiM9JlzTv/gJv9jeFZx6+EKcL9KcMX8fp7eSnWkgK7qspzTmtul80iQFXGhgjHrmGG cKbJFq/LynQZIEsPlzqZGawIOle+o84r04BtBNNVMx7mAZXK7UmeeaAod0Yv27KrxtS+ kZMyj1FCaerrB9A5qUKQ3QqP/SlWQfLIayWPiGz20RyiEzMcEfktKfiDNvcaDFQtGKTj 8PFtfupAOY5DnfM5x45lIZobQ2DvYJPwxlKBZfq/Uf5KRmqnWbDdfr7xxdR51NRlj9Vs WNmjLF5wkS5bHoXabzHISJtz2eVxzdTyy4sEI+hlBFi13PUHxph9e1ycjlqali5l5+D9 m9Pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o6CNjQxCnZkPoPso43gaDhFBPUHqy+szj86kwsZQvbo=; b=QLRzpnfPdxvDkQ7LU2c7cuSsMPVGN0VdIzBo0l1cgIWDrM+uGhlSb73lSxwdNaNdcR 3YnJuRx40TBxMGY+e79L50Zccnr8dT6KxP57G8Ag3buZ24oyKxT++KtsFg6wAewVH/P5 /7P8tVYPO2XFnXUM1hfjLudD4kqkeK1guRUF/QOX/sXgrkKyR0EZ+l2LCa/h4xNqlYUl aSV4K2I0TpehYjFzBYvBS3aGg5nLTPfZB8LjGobPEV0be7YnNWGuluQ8BIt3XU2DufNN cio9TDbsXm9dEJCSgJQEapgQyQZMDmXkgrZpX5RmY29MjvFSeHGvZvb0/xaXcpVBa785 ogOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3vtPqzZuIaSH9kHI0q1KvottxKMbZzS+jp7+05h1PzYxE6vbUD gQrbY8YW6QlmXWSrWzzftElCR1cc6YSv3vYD60Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vt9DMIZkMCAoWVWoAypWNyIktbdwTHlsUZNA8MrkIz6GOwjjarMjUoL/drUWGqBWU/MZic6to+nu4X4qmaayOA= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2648:: with SMTP id v8mr14125917qtv.65.1584808327147; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:32:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Chris Box (BT)" Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 16:31:55 +0000 Message-ID: To: Ted Hardie Cc: ADD Mailing list , Jari Arkko , Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000060752f05a15ff12a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 16:32:13 -0000 --00000000000060752f05a15ff12a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ted, Thanks for responding. Let's take a look: On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 21:24, Ted Hardie wrote: > > If you look at section 4.1, you'll see that one of the strategies is "to > distribute each different client to a different resolver." If the client= 's > trusted set includes the local network resolver, it might well be > associated with that network. Because this strategy is focused on the > aggregate distribution of DNS queries, there are a lot of cases where the > local network being trusted means the current association methods don't > actually change for some clients. > To clarify, we're talking here about the case where the client's trusted set consists of these two: * The local resolver * A more distant resolver These two are operated by different parties. I agree that in strategy 4.1, sometimes it will exclusively use the local resolver, and this means no change in behaviour. Other times it will not. In the general case, clients use a mixture of the two. If you put resolvers with different policies into the trusted set, that can > happen. If the resolvers are transparent about their policies, this seem= s > less likely to happen, because you will put resolvers into the set only > when you are both confident of their privacy-preserving behavior and that > their policies match your desires. > Given that the resolvers within the set are operated by different parties, I would say it's extremely likely that their privacy policies will have non-identical wording, and consequently different semantics. As a user it's already hard enough to read one privacy policy and satisfy yourself it's ok. To have to do this more than once is quite a (human) challenge. > > I'm not familiar enough with SAC 109 to comment, so I'll leave that to > others. My personal belief is that the ability to choose what resolvers > belong in the set is important enough that it should map to the client's > controller (which might be an individual, the parent of child, the > enterprise owner of an employee device). > I will suggest it=E2=80=99s worth a read, as the issues are complex enough = that they can=E2=80=99t be solved by requiring administrative control of the cli= ent. > I find your graphic a bit confusing, because you are not treating the stub > resolver in the home router as if it were a part of the calculus here. I= f > I understand things correctly, if those clients were actively choosing to > use a resolver here (rather than taking one by association), they would b= e > choosing the home router, rather than A (let's call the home router > resolver H). They presumably believe H has policies that match the ones > they prefer; A is opaque to them. But H sees the traffic of all five > clients; that's the common trade-off there. > Yes H could be part of the set, but since this draft is about using multiple resolvers it would not be the only one. There must be at least one remote resolver. I had drawn it using two remotes (A & B), but if instead it was one remote (H & A), the same issue applies. Resolver A can individually discriminate between all the clients who are contacting it. Compare this with the status quo, where H is the sole intermediary, and remote recursive resolvers do not obtain that fine-grained client identification. > As I said, there are trade-offs here. In any case where your query > traffic goes to a recursive resolver, the number of clients sharing that > resolver increases the anonymity set for traffic analyzed upstream of tha= t > resolver. In your first example, because your A is upstream of H, H's > clients get an anonymity set size of 5 with respect to A. In your exampl= e > two, for traffic analyzed upstream of A or B, the anonymity set size is > likely to be much higher, but the tradeoff is that that A (or B) has a mo= re > direct view of a larger number of clients. > Yes, we agree with the more direct view of the clients. I wasn't really thinking about upstream of the recursives, but yes on that side, the larger the number of clients using A, the more anonymity. For a large ISP, this can be well into the millions. Thanks, Chris --00000000000060752f05a15ff12a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ted,

Thanks for responding. Let's take a look:

O= n Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 21:24, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

If you look at section 4.1, you'll see that o= ne of the strategies is "to distribute each different client to a diff= erent resolver."=C2=A0 If the client's trusted set includes the lo= cal network resolver, it might well be associated with that network.=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Because this strategy is focused on the aggregate distribution= of DNS queries, there are a lot of cases where the local network being tru= sted means the current association methods don't actually change for so= me clients.

To clarify, we're talking here about the case where the client&= #39;s trusted set consists of these two:
* The local resolver
* A more d= istant resolver

These two are operated by differen= t parties. I agree that in strategy 4.1, sometimes it will exclusively use = the local resolver, and this means no change in behaviour. Other times it w= ill not.=C2=A0 In the general case, clients use a mixture of the two.
=

If = you put resolvers with different policies into the trusted set, that can ha= ppen.=C2=A0 If the resolvers are transparent about their policies, this see= ms less likely to happen, because you will put resolvers into the set only = when you are both confident of their privacy-preserving behavior and that t= heir policies match your desires.
Given that the resolvers within the set are operate= d by different parties, I would say it's extremely likely that their pr= ivacy policies will have non-identical wording, and consequently different = semantics. As a user it's already hard enough to read one privacy polic= y and satisfy yourself it's ok. To have to do this more than once is qu= ite a (human) challenge.


I'm not fa= miliar enough with SAC 109 to comment, so I'll leave that to others.=C2= =A0 My personal belief is that the ability to choose what resolvers belong = in the set is important enough that it should map to the client's contr= oller (which might be an individual, the parent of child, the enterprise ow= ner of an employee device).=C2=A0

I will suggest it=E2=80=99s worth a r= ead, as the issues are complex enough that they can=E2=80=99t be solved by = requiring administrative control of the client.=C2=A0
<= /div>

I find your graphic a bit confusing, = because you are not treating the stub resolver in the home router as if it = were a part of the calculus here.=C2=A0 If I understand things correctly, i= f those clients were actively choosing to use a resolver here (rather than = taking one by association), they would be choosing the home router, rather = than A (let's call the home router resolver H).=C2=A0 They presumably b= elieve H has policies that match the ones they prefer; A is opaque to them.= =C2=A0 But H sees the traffic of all five clients; that's the common tr= ade-off there.

Yes H could be part of the set, but since this draft is abo= ut using multiple resolvers it would not be the only one. There must be at = least one remote resolver.

I had drawn it using two remotes (A & B), but if instead it was one = remote (H & A), the same issue applies. Resolver A can individually dis= criminate between all the clients who are contacting it. Compare this with = the status quo, where H is the sole intermediary, and remote recursive reso= lvers do not obtain that fine-grained client identification.=C2=A0

=
=C2=A0
As I said, there are trade-offs he= re.=C2=A0 In any case where your query traffic goes to a recursive resolver= , the number of clients sharing that resolver increases the anonymity set f= or traffic analyzed upstream of that resolver.=C2=A0 In your first example,= because your A is upstream of H, H's clients get an anonymity set size= of 5 with respect to A.=C2=A0 In your example two, for traffic analyzed up= stream of A or B, the anonymity set size is likely to be much higher, but t= he tradeoff is that that A (or B) has a more direct view of a larger number= of clients.

Yes, we = agree with the more direct view of the clients. I wasn't really thinkin= g about upstream of the recursives, but yes on that side, the larger the nu= mber of clients using A, the more anonymity. For a large ISP, this can be w= ell into the millions.

Thanks,
Chris
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On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:23 AM Chris Bo= x (BT) <chris.box.ietf@gmail= .com> wrote:

If I= compare the above to the set of perspectives outlined in ICANN SAC109, my = expectation is that the resulting net change in the ability to meet their n= eeds is as follows:

4.1 (Parents):=C2=A0 Negative<= /div>
4.2 (Enterprise Network Managers):=C2=A0 Negative

Item= s 4.1 and 4.2 are pretend security.=C2=A0 Just take a Google Pixel phone an= d turn on the built-in VPN.

I know some people wil= l jump in and say "but the regulators!". That is both off-topic f= or this list, and ultimately contemptuous of whomever they think will buy t= hat line.
=C2=A0
=
4.= 3 (Dissidents, Protesters and Others):=C2=A0 Positive

I would sa= y neutral, since they probably don't rely on clear text DNS.
= =C2=A0
4.4 (Internet Service = Providers):=C2=A0 Negative
<= /div>

Why would that be?

thanks,
Rob

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boundary="----=_Part_3510_1748275709.1584962952235" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev0 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:29:26 -0000 ------=_Part_3510_1748275709.1584962952235 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 20/03/2020 22:23 Ted Hardie ha scritto: > > > > > > > We then get onto the problem briefly mentioned in section 6.2, namely > > different resolvers might have different policies with > > respect to blocking or filtering of queries that lead to clients > > receiving inconsistent answers > > > > > > > > If you put resolvers with different policies into the trusted set, that can happen. If the resolvers are transparent about their policies, this seems less likely to happen, because you will put resolvers into the set only when you are both confident of their privacy-preserving behavior and that their policies match your desires. > Assuming that "you" in your sentence is the end-user and not the client, it is hard to think that this approach can work in practice for the ordinary user; as a minimum, as suggested by other drafts, there should be an automated, standardized way for resolvers to describe their policies and for clients to retrieve them and match them against the user's preferences, without requiring the user to go through legalese terms & conditions every time they want to add/accept a new resolver into the set (though there might be a legal requirement that they do anyway). In the absence of that, it would be likely that the user only went through the hassle of vetting and adding a new resolver for two or three times, which could easily frustrate the privacy properties of the concept and in fact bring forth more centralization and more opportunities for user tracking. (By the way, the draft seems to lack a proper "Privacy Considerations" section, is it still in the making? That could be a place to record this discussion.) In addition, the above approach does not work for adversarial filtering, i.e. the one done according to legal/policy requirements without the consent of the user, or that the user would even actively try to circumvent. Of course there are radically different views on whether that practice is good or bad and we should not reopen that discussion, but "inconsistent answers" is a side effect, not the key issue that would derive from a widespread adoption of the model discussed in the draft; so the draft should mention those issues too. The assessment in section 6 should be expanded to make it clear what the effects of the proposed model would be on currently common use cases for the DNS, like legally mandated filtering or security filtering by ISP/corporate networks. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_3510_1748275709.1584962952235 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 20/03/2020 22:23 Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> ha scritto:


We then get onto the problem briefly mentioned in section 6.2, namely
   different resolvers might have different policies with
   respect to blocking or filtering of queries that lead to clients
   receiving inconsistent answers


If you put resolvers with different policies into the trusted set, that can happen.  If the resolvers are transparent about their policies, this seems less likely to happen, because you will put resolvers into the set only when you are both confident of their privacy-preserving behavior and that their policies match your desires.
Assuming that "you" in your sentence is the end-user and not the client, it is hard to think that this approach can work in practice for the ordinary user; as a minimum, as suggested by other drafts, there should be an automated, standardized way for resolvers to describe their policies and for clients to retrieve them and match them against the user's preferences, without requiring the user to go through legalese terms & conditions every time they want to add/accept a new resolver into the set (though there might be a legal requirement that they do anyway).

In the absence of that, it would be likely that the user only went through the hassle of vetting and adding a new resolver for two or three times, which could easily frustrate the privacy properties of the concept and in fact bring forth more centralization and more opportunities for user tracking.

(By the way, the draft seems to lack a proper "Privacy Considerations" section, is it still in the making? That could be a place to record this discussion.)

In addition, the above approach does not work for adversarial filtering, i.e. the one done according to legal/policy requirements without the consent of the user, or that the user would even actively try to circumvent. Of course there are radically different views on whether that practice is good or bad and we should not reopen that discussion, but "inconsistent answers" is a side effect, not the key issue that would derive from a widespread adoption of the model discussed in the draft; so the draft should mention those issues too. The assessment in section 6 should be expanded to make it clear what the effects of the proposed model would be on currently common use cases for the DNS, like legally mandated filtering or security filtering by ISP/corporate networks.

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:19:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:19:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: Andrew Campling Cc: "Chris Box (BT)" , Ted Hardie , ADD Mailing list , Jari Arkko , Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a451605a18c32a1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:20:15 -0000 --0000000000001a451605a18c32a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 2:09 PM Andrew Campling wrote: > On Fri, Sun 22, 2020 at 05:12 Rob Sayre wrote: > > > > > Items 4.1 and 4.2 are pretend security. Just take a Google Pixel phone > and turn on the built-in VPN. > > > > I=E2=80=99m curious why you believe parents and enterprise network manage= rs are > =E2=80=9Cpretend security=E2=80=9D? Are you, for example, suggesting tha= t there is > currently no security on home or enterprise networks, or did you mean > something else? > They aren't, but DNS-based measures (without installed Parental Control Software or Enterprise Admin access) are. Chris Box wrote: "the issues are complex enough that they can=E2=80=99t be solved by requiri= ng administrative control of the client." But I think that solutions that don't require administrative control are ineffective. My example was a Google Pixel phone: mine ships with a VPN on-by-default for open WiFi, and the option to turn it on for all connections. thanks, Rob --0000000000001a451605a18c32a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 2:09 PM Andrew Ca= mpling <andrew.campling@419.consulting> wrote:

On Fri, Sun 22, 2020 at 05:12 R= ob Sayre <sayrer@g= mail.com> wrote:

=C2=A0<= /span>

> Items 4.1 and 4.2 are pretend security.=C2=A0 J= ust take a Google Pixel phone and turn on the built-in VPN.

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m curious why you believe parents and ente= rprise network managers are =E2=80=9Cpretend security=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Are y= ou, for example, suggesting that there is currently no security on home or = enterprise networks, or did you mean something else?=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=

They aren't, b= ut DNS-based measures (without installed Parental Control Software or Enter= prise Admin access) are. Chris Box wrote:

"th= e issues are complex enough that they can=E2=80=99t be solved by requiring = administrative control of the client."

But I = think that solutions that don't require administrative control are inef= fective. My example was a Google Pixel phone: mine ships with a VPN on-by-d= efault for open WiFi, and the option to turn it on for all connections.

thanks,
Rob

--0000000000001a451605a18c32a1-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 14:56:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA903A0F38 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:55:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YpAvJ9P7aMRg for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3FA3A0F3C for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D478F6601A0; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 23:55:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T3jn3CO5H_mo; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 23:55:34 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A801D6600C0; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 23:55:34 +0200 (EET) From: Jari Arkko Message-Id: <9E800C5F-AC63-4F0A-A2BF-2B5352BA7EBA@piuha.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D85E4DAF-02F0-4016-9D6C-7AA1F6D4EFB1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 23:55:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: ADD Mailing list To: Ted Hardie , "Chris Box (BT)" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:56:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D85E4DAF-02F0-4016-9D6C-7AA1F6D4EFB1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Ted, Chris, > If I compare the above to the set of perspectives outlined in ICANN = SAC109, my expectation is that the resulting net change in the ability = to meet their needs is as follows: >=20 > 4.1 (Parents): Negative > 4.2 (Enterprise Network Managers): Negative > 4.3 (Dissidents, Protesters and Others): Positive > 4.4 (Internet Service Providers): Negative >=20 > Would you agree with this assessment? Or have I missed something = crucial? >=20 >=20 > I'm not familiar enough with SAC 109 to comment, so I'll leave that to = others. My personal belief is that the ability to choose what resolvers = belong in the set is important enough that it should map to the client's = controller (which might be an individual, the parent of child, the = enterprise owner of an employee device). =20 I agree with Ted of course. I=E2=80=99d actually suggest also that there = are different perspectives on what one considers trustworthy*. We did = not want to discuss that under this draft. Rather, our goal was to = discuss whether using multiple resolvers would provide a privacy = benefit, not whether you trust a particular entity or a particular type = of an entity. Why we mentioned something about different policies in = Section 6.2 was not because we wanted to take a position, but rather the = fact *if* you use multiple servers, then *if* their policies are very = different this may result in unexpected results. Jari *) Including whether one is concerned about accuracy vs. privacy and = whose control you are worried about. --Apple-Mail=_D85E4DAF-02F0-4016-9D6C-7AA1F6D4EFB1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Ted, Chris,

If I compare the above to the set of = perspectives outlined in ICANN SAC109, my expectation is that the = resulting net change in the ability to meet their needs is as = follows:

4.1 = (Parents):  Negative
4.2 (Enterprise Network = Managers):  Negative
4.3 (Dissidents, = Protesters and Others):  Positive
4.4 = (Internet Service Providers):  Negative

Would you agree with this assessment? = Or have I missed something crucial?


I'm not = familiar enough with SAC 109 to comment, so I'll leave that to = others.  My personal belief is that the ability to choose what = resolvers belong in the set is important enough that it should map to = the client's controller (which might be an individual, the parent of = child, the enterprise owner of an employee device). 

I = agree with Ted of course. I=E2=80=99d actually suggest also that there = are different perspectives on what one considers trustworthy*. We did = not want to discuss that under this draft. Rather, our goal was to = discuss whether using multiple resolvers would provide a privacy = benefit, not whether you trust a particular entity or a particular type = of an entity. Why we mentioned something about different policies in = Section 6.2 was not because we wanted to take a position, but rather the = fact *if* you use multiple servers, then *if* their policies are very = different this may result in unexpected results.

Jari

*) = Including whether one is concerned about accuracy vs. privacy and whose = control you are worried about.

= --Apple-Mail=_D85E4DAF-02F0-4016-9D6C-7AA1F6D4EFB1-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 17:17:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111883A09B5 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d2dCCHytxkBi for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E84923A0C0D for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id c14so1147099qtp.0 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:17:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:cc:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=tBU+qKccrJUr7LAfJaEi3AetGYh4IB8wBqQQRfic93c=; b=WR5SvGeBTJ8O3e/6yN0cIQtKnanyi1TJcjfJRjP8iIGymDSXYgrj8a0cG49rmuZ/6L WSgkq2bOgVZUO5o2YkN7RIRs7CHqzRyUAv1vZzH0tRegFkdu6BQYo+0NdRtZJBsLIATn ElR9VERq1hucRCge9O04tUBLyqvc/yGckVWzwW5M4uF3LES58GY69nPWwa2aCLyDk4TS xoQp6HdxrVmCKhILaWU2FDFY3dMTFiUO94SyHfHsfL3nyBuIuKpWgD77Y+WcmoSOI7dl tRx7pu8+hu4+OJf71R65gdgiqR5h5HjiLILvbDicPeiMevRhDVGYKVQK4y9NsSJKIi66 EczQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:cc:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=tBU+qKccrJUr7LAfJaEi3AetGYh4IB8wBqQQRfic93c=; b=mM3jm8O+7xh7g1/VOCCnBLpYEU8gk17qp0oEjdWGT35eXACEy6KslClr7rHh6b5u+W zFvrzbfRWZI8yDA+2ULCp/RKpyrm3vX1krHGfMYxDQyowkvavVA5AUS/IiHodrsQYUXU oBYGRegbhi9+WnfIhf5/pPYXhdWCvtQyFlOATi/kDFHSAH2Qr16S4yYQBHUFiAke8ZIJ 1VCkxTl5OlCWexN9MRN+DhEFumzFWCLGS/moPbRCEmI/7gEAxHx3CjEfA+/XgHEDyM8X JlmgaGYWjPdk6NYCcIcXk8erNNaQEB9ijCoGT1Oz5jbK5rDgW8bN9bhrs7GjNbcOqOwE AxVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ12DZIjBEQFPvv6yZW87aJld4Tcg0RpUiqEL+G58WhIPN/hmN95 +dcMv4Txs4bJ3o5sSGkgYfQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtVnwj2TkWKY+gLGA4MOLlUowzN2kBBCn8uNrs9/+IzRfmpOMRr220B1jT70/sUQqdSvDLNZg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:33cd:: with SMTP id d13mr23747768qtb.265.1585009022855; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-222-98.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.222.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x65sm3804297qkd.78.2020.03.23.17.17.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:17:02 -0700 (PDT) To: add@ietf.org Cc: Robert Kahn From: Tony Rutkowski Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 20:17:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Add] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 00:17:07 -0000 Has anyone done an analysis of the antitrust implications of this work under an IETF aegis?  Has the IETF Trust bought off on this? The work here is similar that undertaken for The Handle System, and the CNRI work in ITU to develop X.1255 and related treaty instrument resolutions. --tony From nobody Mon Mar 23 17:23:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC4C3A0E05 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5a4ipEFMhgk for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppa5.dc.icann.org (ppa5.dc.icann.org [192.0.46.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A1583A0DF3 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PFE112-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (out.west.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.7]) by ppa5.dc.icann.org (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with ESMTPS id 02O0MqHn027121 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 24 Mar 2020 00:22:53 GMT Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-2.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:22:50 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:22:50 -0700 From: Paul Hoffman To: Tony Rutkowski CC: "add@ietf.org" , Robert Kahn Thread-Topic: [Ext] [Add] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work Thread-Index: AQHWAXGUokSZj8V82EOcIlJDJmWZUqhXVykA Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 00:22:50 +0000 Message-ID: <485DA64D-BAF9-4A0D-8666-5A9CC8F8FE53@icann.org> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] x-source-routing-agent: Processed Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D360CFDA-F495-4D2E-A95A-6702FEFC8086"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.645 definitions=2020-03-23_10:2020-03-23, 2020-03-23 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 00:23:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D360CFDA-F495-4D2E-A95A-6702FEFC8086 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 23, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Tony Rutkowski = wrote: >=20 > Has anyone done an analysis of the antitrust implications of this work = under an IETF aegis? Has the IETF Trust bought off on this? Not that has reported to this group. > The work here is similar that undertaken for The Handle System, and = the CNRI work in ITU to develop X.1255 and related treaty instrument = resolutions. In what way is it "similar"? Various ways of doing discovery have been = done for over 30 years. --Paul Hoffman= --Apple-Mail=_D360CFDA-F495-4D2E-A95A-6702FEFC8086 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCC/Qw ggWeMIIEhqADAgECAhAG83jiXlqePPrfwUUEH4ZnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IFNIQTIgQXNzdXJlZCBJRCBDQTAeFw0xODA2MTMwMDAwMDBaFw0yMTA2 MTMxMjAwMDBaMIG9MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzETMBEGA1UECBMKQ2FsaWZvcm5pYTEUMBIGA1UEBxML TG9zIEFuZ2VsZXMxPDA6BgNVBAoTM0ludGVybmV0IENvcnBvcmF0aW9uIGZvciBBc3NpZ25lZCBO YW1lcyBhbmQgTnVtYmVyczEeMBwGA1UEAxMVUGF1bCBIb2ZmbWFuIDIwMTgwNjEzMSUwIwYJKoZI hvcNAQkBFhZwYXVsLmhvZmZtYW5AaWNhbm4ub3JnMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIB CgKCAQEArTbxBbfxbk1VxDQsOmEm14Yta2AE5cBcJ/ktMkC+aQrTCMSXrQJfjiMUUndnfAT1DWcf 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[70.106.222.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f71sm12359220qke.57.2020.03.23.18.21.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:21:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Add@ietf.org From: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Robert Kahn , Paul Hoffman Message-ID: <5c9880d8-d03c-d28f-08b8-5f704270ed56@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:21:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B1BC11A4B2D5AF324E893E94" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 01:21:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B1BC11A4B2D5AF324E893E94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Paul, Indeed they have.  That's the point, they are similar.  Bob can speak as to the similarities and why The Handle System might be better here, or a competitive alternative. This kind of work in the past has usually had some kind of governmental/intergovernmental aegis for antitrust protection. Here, it appears there is arguably significant potential exposure.  Just suggesting an antitrust analysis is appropriate, as well as some care as to the anti competitive effects. --tony > > Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver > discovery protocol work > > Paul Hoffman Tue, 24 March 2020 00:22 UTCShow > header > > On Mar 23, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > > > > Has anyone done an analysis of the antitrust implications of this work under an IETF aegis? Has the IETF Trust bought off on this? > > Not that has reported to this group. > > > The work here is similar that undertaken for The Handle System, and the CNRI work in ITU to develop X.1255 and related treaty instrument resolutions. > > In what way is it "similar"? Various ways of doing discovery have been done for over 30 years. > > --Paul Hoffman --------------B1BC11A4B2D5AF324E893E94 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Paul,

Indeed they have.  That's the point, they are similar.  Bob can speak as to the similarities and why The Handle System might be better here, or a competitive alternative.

This kind of work in the past has usually had some kind of governmental/intergovernmental aegis for antitrust protection.  Here, it appears there is arguably significant potential exposure.  Just suggesting an antitrust analysis is appropriate, as well as some care as to the anti competitive effects.

--tony

Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work

Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org> Tue, 24 March 2020 00:22 UTCShow header

On Mar 23, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone done an analysis of the antitrust implications of this work under an IETF aegis?  Has the IETF Trust bought off on this?

Not that has reported to this group.

> The work here is similar that undertaken for The Handle System, and the CNRI work in ITU to develop X.1255 and related treaty instrument resolutions.

In what way is it "similar"? Various ways of doing discovery have been done for over 30 years.

--Paul Hoffman

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phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2003240012 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 02:44:12 -0000 --_000_A22F29EB10D04636B5C7A88378E0A3CEnbcunicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2hhdCBhbnRpIHRydXN0IGFzcGVjdHMgYXJlIGJlaW5nIHN1Z2dlc3RlZCBmb3IgZGlzY292ZXJ5 IG9mIGRucyByZXNvbHZlcnMgYW5kIG1lY2hhbmlzbXMgdG8gY29udmV5IHJlc29sdmVyIGluZm9y bWF0aW9uID8NCg0KSSBkb27igJl0IHNlZSB3aGF0IHRoZSBwb3NzaWJsZSBjb25jZXJucyBhcmUu DQoNCkdsZW5uDQoNCk9uIE1hciAyMywgMjAyMCwgYXQgNjoyMiBQTSwgVG9ueSBSdXRrb3dza2kg PHJ1dGtvd3NraS50b255QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCu+7vw0KDQpIaSBQYXVsLA0KDQpJ 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+0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" Cc: "Add@ietf.org" Message-ID: <991386444.3953.1585049620888@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5c9880d8-d03c-d28f-08b8-5f704270ed56@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3951_1375223979.1585049620851" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev0 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:34:01 -0000 ------=_Part_3951_1375223979.1585049620851 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Il 24/03/2020 03:44 Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) ha scritto: >=20 >=20 > What anti trust aspects are being suggested for discovery of dns reso= lvers and mechanisms to convey resolver information ? >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t see what the possible concerns are.=20 >=20 Actually, antitrust concerns have been raised about deployment models in wh= ich discovery is *not* being done, as they attribute to whoever controls th= e client the ability to also determine or constrain the resolver that is be= ing used, thus giving people with a strong position in the former market al= so a strong influence on the latter one. Having a discovery mechanism could= provide a way to alleviate those concerns, for those that find them reason= able. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com= =20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_3951_1375223979.1585049620851 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20

Il 24/03/2020 03:44 Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) <glenn.deen@nbcuni.co= m> ha scritto:


What anti trust aspects are being suggested for discovery of dns resolv= ers and mechanisms to convey resolver information ?

I don=E2=80=99t see what the possible concerns are. 
Actually, antitrust concerns have been raised about deployment models in= which discovery is *not* being done, as they attribute to whoever controls= the client the ability to also determine or constrain the resolver that is= being used, thus giving people with a strong position in the former market= also a strong influence on the latter one. Having a discovery mechanism co= uld provide a way to alleviate those concerns, for those that find them rea= sonable.

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open=
-Xchange
vittorio.b=
ertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Ital=
y
=20 ------=_Part_3951_1375223979.1585049620851-- From nobody Tue Mar 24 04:54:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBBA83A0801 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 04:54:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OYYQcklhuLgc for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 04:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shaun.rfc1035.com (smtp.v6.rfc1035.com [IPv6:2001:4b10:100:7::25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16AA93A02C1 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 04:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by shaun.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9B0024205EA; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:54:27 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jim Reid In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:54:26 +0000 Cc: add@ietf.org, Robert Kahn Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <67093D18-A0C1-4068-AA54-977F4AD23BC9@rfc1035.com> References: To: Tony Rutkowski X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:54:33 -0000 > On 24 Mar 2020, at 00:17, Tony Rutkowski = wrote: >=20 > Has anyone done an analysis of the antitrust implications of this work = under an IETF aegis? Has the IETF Trust bought off on this? Can you explain why you think there might be anti-trust implications? > The work here is similar that undertaken for The Handle System, and = the CNRI work in ITU to develop X.1255 and related treaty instrument = resolutions. How? The ADD WG hasn=E2=80=99t even met yet or adopted any documents as = WG drafts. So it=E2=80=99s hard to see how there is any basis for your = claim. From nobody Tue Mar 24 05:09:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565F63A0942 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 05:09:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gZVFhMCm7C8K for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 05:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shaun.rfc1035.com (shaun.rfc1035.com [93.186.33.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D39A03A0900 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 05:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by shaun.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F002E24205EA; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:09:42 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jim Reid In-Reply-To: <5c9880d8-d03c-d28f-08b8-5f704270ed56@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:09:41 +0000 Cc: Add@ietf.org, Robert Kahn Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5c9880d8-d03c-d28f-08b8-5f704270ed56@gmail.com> To: Tony Rutkowski X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:09:47 -0000 On 24 Mar 2020, at 01:21, Tony Rutkowski = wrote: >=20 > Bob can speak as to the similarities and why The Handle System might = be better here, or a competitive alternative. IMO it=E2=80=99s incumbent on you to do this since you raised this = issue. Please explain. Though that=E2=80=99s probably off-topic for this = list and WG. The ADD WG is looking at discovery for services using DNS-based lookup = technologies, not those using The Handle System (tm). Those two lookup = mechanisms are orthogonal to each other and may well be mutually = exclusive. The WG=E2=80=99s charter -- ADD is an acronym for Adaptive DNS Discovery = BTW -- actually says "This working group will focus on discovery and = selection of DNS resolvers by DNS clients in a variety of networking = environments=E2=80=9D. There=E2=80=99s no mention of X.1255 or The = Handle System at all. I=E2=80=99m puzzled why you have raised what seems to be a couple of = non-sequiturs. 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[70.106.222.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 79sm12914107qkg.38.2020.03.24.05.34.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Mar 2020 05:34:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Jim Reid Cc: Add@ietf.org, Robert Kahn References: <5c9880d8-d03c-d28f-08b8-5f704270ed56@gmail.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Message-ID: <4f1f615f-d711-2704-3306-9a3ebd01901c@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 08:34:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:34:39 -0000 Hi Jim, This is a subject of active discussion among parties analyzing the resolver system marketplace - which will scale significantly in a 5G environment.  The arena is in the process of becoming much more competitive and diverse.  Your note itself raises some flags about it being focused on only DNS-based lookup technologies.  Why not a broader array of resolver technologies - especially when the ADD remit is "in a variety of networking environments, including public networks, private networks, and VPNs."  It also seems like somebody was concerned about the anti-competitive implications with the addition of a subsequent caveat "making any recommendations about specific policies for clients or servers is out of scope."  The concern is also amplified by IETF proclivities to claim dominion over all implementations of TCP/IP and DNS protocols and the utter lack of any anti-trust policies or review processes. It seems past due to get something published and vetted on a significant scale.  5G implementations will open up a new universe of virtualised architectures, services, and protocols; as the world moves to alternative IP and layer 2 protocols, end point identifiers, and discovery/resolver services. --tony On 2020-03-24 8:09 AM, Jim Reid wrote: > On 24 Mar 2020, at 01:21, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >> Bob can speak as to the similarities and why The Handle System might be better here, or a competitive alternative. > IMO it’s incumbent on you to do this since you raised this issue. Please explain. Though that’s probably off-topic for this list and WG. > > The ADD WG is looking at discovery for services using DNS-based lookup technologies, not those using The Handle System (tm). Those two lookup mechanisms are orthogonal to each other and may well be mutually exclusive. > > The WG’s charter -- ADD is an acronym for Adaptive DNS Discovery BTW -- actually says "This working group will focus on discovery and selection of DNS resolvers by DNS clients in a variety of networking environments”. There’s no mention of X.1255 or The Handle System at all. > > I’m puzzled why you have raised what seems to be a couple of non-sequiturs. > From nobody Tue Mar 24 06:55:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8473A0943 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 06:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ct9cWx6kVOIm for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 06:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shaun.rfc1035.com (smtp.v6.rfc1035.com [IPv6:2001:4b10:100:7::25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A18FD3A0BD1 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 06:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by shaun.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08CA324205EA; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:55:14 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jim Reid In-Reply-To: <4f1f615f-d711-2704-3306-9a3ebd01901c@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:55:12 +0000 Cc: Add@ietf.org, Robert Kahn Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <95EB4EE3-24ED-40AF-B1AB-098042D769C4@rfc1035.com> References: <5c9880d8-d03c-d28f-08b8-5f704270ed56@gmail.com> <4f1f615f-d711-2704-3306-9a3ebd01901c@gmail.com> To: Tony Rutkowski X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:55:36 -0000 > On 24 Mar 2020, at 12:34, Tony Rutkowski = wrote: >=20 > This is a subject of active discussion among parties analyzing the = resolver system marketplace - which will scale significantly in a 5G = environment. Who are these parties and where are those discussions taking place? > The arena is in the process of becoming much more competitive and = diverse. Is it? Where? How? > Your note itself raises some flags about it being focused on only = DNS-based lookup technologies. Why not a broader array of resolver = technologies - especially when the ADD remit is "in a variety of = networking environments, including public networks, private networks, = and VPNs."=20 Have you followed the long and tortuous process which lead to the = formation of the ADD WG? The charter=E2=80=99s scope had to be carefully = focused because (a) something diffuse was never going to result in = useful output in a reasonable time-frame; (b) the IETF wouldn=E2=80=99t = have been able to reach consensus on the creation of the new WG. Asking for the WG to assimilate every flavour-of-the-month alternative = to DNS at this stage is ill-judged and *very* premature. The WG hasn=E2=80= =99t even met yet and you seem to want it rechartered. Hmmm. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b5b3bc21-23c3-4792-82b6-08d7cffd0b11 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Mar 2020 14:10:01.3838 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4f3526f9-97d6-412d-933a-4e30a73110f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: gb/+oYzBh5IdcgOQ8P9G4khZXFTRDILEY3IO4aJdsWszs9VBEE5FFrZVLqKZCsqVK144XxnfWn6RKEeu0A9E2w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR14MB2999 X-OriginatorOrg: nbcuni.com X-EXCLAIMER-MD-CONFIG: 47edc00f-f2d6-45ef-be83-8a353bd47e45 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.645 definitions=2020-03-24_05:2020-03-23, 2020-03-24 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2003240076 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [Ext] antitrust implications of IETF resolver discovery protocol work X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:10:08 -0000 Hi everyone, This discussion has been moved off list as this is not in scope for the WG = - please focus on list discussion to ADD technical matters on discovery an= d resolver info conveyance. =20 Thanks Glenn=20 From nobody Tue Mar 24 21:37:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923D43A0811 for ; 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Wed, 25 Mar 2020 00:37:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-1021-g152deaf-fmstable-20200319v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 15:36:51 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: add@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 04:37:14 -0000 As I raised this in the meeting, I think that it's only fair that I include what I think the principles should be. In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be able to present their views on what resolver you should use. Client policy will then dictate which - if any - of those is used. Authentication of the source of these opinions is likely a necessary input for the client policy decision. It is discussing client policy that has caused us to get into unproductive discussions. To be clear, I regard the question of whether it is users or the software they choose to run that make policy decisions to be firmly part of this discussion. We might variously lament the ability of software to properly reflect the wishes of users, but this is not the place to debate that. That doesn't mean that you should expect the person serving you sausages at a local deli to offer an opinion on what resolver you should use. But we should look to provide ways in which entities that have some relevant stake to make their opinion known. As a provider of application software that might be interested in having its own policies, I might expect to receive opinions from the following places: * The networks that endpoints connect to. * DNS servers that might be involved in answering queries. * Other communication endpoints, such as sites or enterprise services, and their representatives, such as CDNs or corporate IT. These next three might not depend on a protocol that we define here, but we can still recognize that there might be other entities involved in expressing opinions and - for these - even setting policy: * The operating system configuration. * Various "owners" or stakeholders for the endpoint, such as an employer or a government (this might not extend all the way to full control of the device MDM-style, but it might still be relevant to the client policy). * Application configuration. I don't personally see a lot of value in having entities other than those from the first set of three stand on soapboxes to broadcast their opinions about resolver choice, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with having other sources of opinions. So while the IETF could provide more protocols, it's not a good use of our time and resources unless we expect that the information would be acceptable to genuine client policies. When it comes to setting policy, authentication is important. When making a decision about whether to use a particular resolver, depending on the policy you have, it might be important that you know whose opinion is guiding the decision. If you want a server that doesn't store logs of queries for longer than a certain time, then I'm not aware of a technical mechanism for verifying that claim. You likely have to rely on the assertions of an entity you trust. Opinions received over the delicatessen counter are unlikely to carry any particular weight. It was good to see both Tommy and Dan address this question directly; though I'm not sure I totally agree that the right trust anchors were used, building in ways to authenticate an opinion makes it more likely that client policy will allow use of the indicated resolver. I think that the need to be flexible about authenticity derives largely from the desire to allow networks to have an opinion. I know of no way to authenticate the output of DHCP or a RA, except to say that this is most likely the provider of the network who is speaking. That's very weak authentication, so while it carries some weight, it's not a lot. So, I would suggest that the best we can hope for from this WG is a set of mechanisms that report on resolver options/opinions and some associated information that includes who provided the option/opinion and how. Cheers, Martin p.s., Regarding work on the table, I think that it is clear what the models are driving draft-btw-add-home, draft-peterson-do[th]-dhcp, and draft-pauly-dprive-adaptive-dns-privacy. I struggle a little with draft-mglt-add-rdp in this regard and I would appreciate a little more clarity about intent. It is possible that draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection is firmly in the authentication space, but it seems to be more firmly aimed at communicating policy than I am currently comfortable with right now. 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Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:32:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:32:57 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Martin Thomson , add@ietf.org Message-ID: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev0 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 07:33:07 -0000 > Il 25/03/2020 05:36 Martin Thomson ha scritto: > > > As I raised this in the meeting, I think that it's only fair that I include what I think the principles should be. > > In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be able to present their views on what resolver you should use. Client policy will then dictate which - if any - of those is used. I don't necessarily disagree with the approach, but there is a question to which I need a very convincing answer first. "Any entity you interact with" already has a way to tell you - even force you - to use a name server they control to effect resolution of their domain names. It's called "authoritative name server". It seems to me that the model that especially draft-pauly is proposing - i.e. every destination pointing the client to a resolver that the destination controls - is functionally equivalent, in terms of who gets to see which information, to eliminating the concept of an external resolver and having the end-user device implement and run a full resolver on its own. This, as per Tommy's reply to the question I made at IETF 106, would increase privacy because the resolution process would not provide data to any other party than the "final destination", which would anyway get it when the following HTTPS connection happens. (The fact that the two sets of data are actually the same has been challenged yesterday in the Jabber chat, but that's another discussion.) I assume that this is also what you are envisaging, since the alternative - every destination pointing the client to a resolver which they don't control, but with which they have commercial or other agreements - opens up the potential for much heavier security threat, centralization and surveillance scenarios than it is ever possible today, so I would expect it to be ruled out much like other out-of-same-origin practices. So - why do we need to develop all this complex machinery just to let destinations indicate some kind of resolver that does the same thing that their authoritative already does? What's the difference with just implementing a full resolver in the client? -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Wed Mar 25 11:41:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908AB3A09E1 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tdrtqrZSoOlt for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 708393A09CE for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id g62so4038021wme.1 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8IUfyipmKgGTTla88RrR1k/r3yh/P87/YVwhEO5E9Xs=; b=OtrcHrJIi5e+NLryYYiPInEuKvimMRb5lNCey4u9tcUml7Al8HlxyljRnAxeI9q41W 1ymLJc2orwSES8lkWv1enK/xkH1xcBK1hps1gSE5LqjiSfkcNHEvVIBFtrj85bQq7l0Y dRfkcZPbvgXcnP0Ab48RESfPOtXlV5u17B37xj5bwVjLD15aKcdVXtJwMUyLxLTDgiJA 7A0IMbvgsh9VVIKskXXgSN5Cmo1WCaPON/A0afM7lOJxb7idW5pI4whmi7KJaXPg8CCe tZCzv7hoTrN1aCNCVsCmbZqxeq2faP6ceAP9fSs6EirNns3O8QwdblnsYeQMnOog4Y8P anWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8IUfyipmKgGTTla88RrR1k/r3yh/P87/YVwhEO5E9Xs=; b=PDhawyzXzdxJ4up9VXyMPJIVBTcT/5ygWb0RgXRODMCAVj2gFlRtsDxalip7ER0Q+K 9lSuVl4MOLVt8A2bH/T8gHlRs5yqgdR8kpCxClncEn87tzq2rM2c3uOjzEi2D+g50u6V HZ6tmLKM3cnTCjsLpqQND4vMAeND2ezG2bnwqUpblg8BB/Osi7G1mhg7VaLF0ALVrp1x FwpVE+FSp+grpeBW0mGPy5gYZWquVeAECxFMrhZrIRt2STo+nhXbAXY2UiXgneA4IGJA /MlMQVDEHEzqD2kzauSFPMeCS3IfxW4sKOhnhWocCxgs3Pv+G3hUfH9n0MzH660PTSnM qEFw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1GRTgal/SiV6XcebNoZ+b32X4rUhM3yEtz/I1jMCq2BA8syxbL +Jv76wZGnC2LuaoGfvfjae6RdFp7ADjZP6p/vpuQZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvUiS7G267KhqX+cR6JW5Drob9IVu1W9IWMSwcL0ZbuE1dISTsEIhi1XogmBd5tFMYhIOc5q/eoqAKPjAn7LjA= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:197:: with SMTP id 145mr4664436wmb.42.1585161645541; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Ben Schwartz Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 14:40:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Martin Thomson , ADD Mailing list Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000d461ec05a1b23465" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:40:59 -0000 --000000000000d461ec05a1b23465 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cbb77405a1b2347c" --000000000000cbb77405a1b2347c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 3:33 AM Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > > Il 25/03/2020 05:36 Martin Thomson ha scritto: > > > > > > As I raised this in the meeting, I think that it's only fair that I > include what I think the principles should be. > > > > In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be > able to present their views on what resolver you should use. Client policy > will then dictate which - if any - of those is used. > > I don't necessarily disagree with the approach, but there is a question to > which I need a very convincing answer first. > > "Any entity you interact with" already has a way to tell you - even force > you - to use a name server they control to effect resolution of their > domain names. It's called "authoritative name server". > > It seems to me that the model that especially draft-pauly is proposing - > i.e. every destination pointing the client to a resolver that the > destination controls - is functionally equivalent, in terms of who gets to > see which information, to eliminating the concept of an external resolver > and having the end-user device implement and run a full resolver on its own. > > This, as per Tommy's reply to the question I made at IETF 106, would > increase privacy because the resolution process would not provide data to > any other party than the "final destination", which would anyway get it > when the following HTTPS connection happens. (The fact that the two sets of > data are actually the same has been challenged yesterday in the Jabber > chat, but that's another discussion.) > > I assume that this is also what you are envisaging, since the alternative > - every destination pointing the client to a resolver which they don't > control, but with which they have commercial or other agreements - opens up > the potential for much heavier security threat, centralization and > surveillance scenarios than it is ever possible today, so I would expect it > to be ruled out much like other out-of-same-origin practices. > I don't think this is a meaningful distinction. Authoritative nameserver operations are commonly outsourced and heavily consolidated today, just as web hosting is commonly outsourced to large CDNs. There's certainly no "out-of-same-origin" rule that prevents using a CDN! > So - why do we need to develop all this complex machinery just to let > destinations indicate some kind of resolver that does the same thing that > their authoritative already does? What's the difference with just > implementing a full resolver in the client? > I actually agree, at least in part: as our proposals develop, we should try to harmonize them with the work to encrypt recursive->authoritative DNS queries. Perhaps we will be able to build encrypted stub, recursive, and hybrid resolvers from a small set of shared components. > > -- > > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy > > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > --000000000000cbb77405a1b2347c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 3:33 AM Vitto= rio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=3D40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


> Il 25/03/2020 05:36 Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> ha scritto:
>
>=C2=A0
> As I raised this in the meeting, I think that it's only fair that = I include what I think the principles should be.
>
> In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be a= ble to present their views on what resolver you should use.=C2=A0 Client po= licy will then dictate which - if any - of those is used.

I don't necessarily disagree with the approach, but there is a question= to which I need a very convincing answer first.

"Any entity you interact with" already has a way to tell you - ev= en force you - to use a name server they control to effect resolution of th= eir domain names. It's called "authoritative name server".
It seems to me that the model that especially draft-pauly is proposing - i.= e. every destination pointing the client to a resolver that the destination= controls - is functionally equivalent, in terms of who gets to see which i= nformation, to eliminating the concept of an external resolver and having t= he end-user device implement and run a full resolver on its own.

This, as per Tommy's reply to the question I made at IETF 106, would in= crease privacy because the resolution process would not provide data to any= other party than the "final destination", which would anyway get= it when the following HTTPS connection happens. (The fact that the two set= s of data are actually the same has been challenged yesterday in the Jabber= chat, but that's another discussion.)

I assume that this is also what you are envisaging, since the alternative -= every destination pointing the client to a resolver which they don't c= ontrol, but with which they have commercial or other agreements - opens up = the potential for much heavier security threat, centralization and surveill= ance scenarios than it is ever possible today, so I would expect it to be r= uled out much like other out-of-same-origin practices.

I don't think this is a meaningful distinction.=C2=A0 A= uthoritative nameserver operations are commonly outsourced and heavily cons= olidated today, just as web hosting is commonly outsourced to large CDNs.= =C2=A0 There's certainly no "out-of-same-origin" rule that pr= events using a CDN!
=C2=A0
So - why do we need to develop all this complex machinery just to let desti= nations indicate some kind of resolver that does the same thing that their = authoritative already does? What's the difference with just implementin= g a full resolver in the client?

I actu= ally agree, at least in part: as our proposals develop, we should try to ha= rmonize them with the work to encrypt recursive->authoritative DNS queri= es.=C2=A0 Perhaps we will be able to build encrypted stub, recursive, and h= ybrid resolvers from a small set of shared components.
=C2=A0

--

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vitt= orio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy

--
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X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvtH7Cw9GnDiTzE5HdTQPCw8mvdLTmX7jbprlyl4uKhAfnPqfbDr7ODt5O8Bq5oLViESFSvlRBX3MXXJTyB4ug= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3a62:: with SMTP id j89mr3350990otc.45.1585162863327; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:01:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Patrick McManus Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 15:00:52 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: ADD Mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000061640905a1b27d16" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 19:04:45 -0000 --00000000000061640905a1b27d16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 12:37 AM Martin Thomson wrote: > > In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be able > to present their views on what resolver you should use. Client policy will > then dictate which - if any - of those is used. Authentication of the > source of these opinions is likely a necessary input for the client policy > decision. > > I think this is a pretty strong summary and a useful contribution - thanks!. I might add that their view may include the scope of their recommendation. (e.g. I'm a general recursive, I'm for this split horizon, I'm for this authoritative, etc...) and, if we were making mission statements, emphasize that authentication is something they are implicitly conveying during presentation (even if its the absence of authentication). > --00000000000061640905a1b27d16 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 12:37 AM Mart= in Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net&g= t; wrote:

In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be able t= o present their views on what resolver you should use.=C2=A0 Client policy = will then dictate which - if any - of those is used.=C2=A0 Authentication o= f the source of these opinions is likely a necessary input for the client p= olicy decision.


I think this is a pretty strong summar= y and a useful contribution - thanks!. I might add that their view may incl= ude the scope of their recommendation. (e.g. I'm a general recursive, I= 'm for this split horizon, I'm for this authoritative, etc...) and,= if we were making mission statements, emphasize that authentication is som= ething they are implicitly conveying during presentation (even if its the a= bsence of authentication).



--00000000000061640905a1b27d16-- From nobody Wed Mar 25 13:00:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA973A0CEF; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:00:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00RyoS9HHjxz; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24A7A3A0D19; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id k29so3163893ilg.0; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:59:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wr14759ViRwTY7IQKuUwusyYfb8hxqT6/Mcb+pmO75k=; b=PNaxKZzgARBhgL9RHVZybOyvh6o9xwt4TK/lIQA35ivpuNFnNeDvlzFjHt8DvUwQXd +zZ5HeeMElw8Q8m5Dv+Dfxdtp7AslCxphRHsDFmwAcRGpoOy9p+o/J3LuNSZe281lENv PP4UCTDBlB62CyRpPspN1we81CusU2J4Q2NvtAqQMPV+wugx/aJR68spm5YTovF+f7U2 MqWi8k0y7vXcv/67jFvNVlWoO+dx2Iunt4Vt9lfeEzuBIUwUzFCMVEOoa8JRDkaL4bA3 HsPAl36/QDTdp8w/Gn4gIYE/v3LdJZLOvAWmDoOVAW7Hm6Q8VrwKO7CHvHJuvXgDXbqz 9AnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wr14759ViRwTY7IQKuUwusyYfb8hxqT6/Mcb+pmO75k=; b=ApJAt1j4fWNpQF3F95d0EWCoXd1Bub56F+fMkWz4cBG1Ya51fgjVLm3dLj5LH5ZnoD mZ4YNmO12H6FE2QGyVXFvVAQ2DZSfT5S8sSggQo/qyrTrZG9kTCc8LovLShRacESC1aP LIlx1mSJrClIOQzs126iLQ9CiMJ9Wy4ctOVNDCS3atHPxJsb+6KragsFu+wlkXKsP8GD qi55TZ0T34uV2FN2VKw9pl7kaBJ6j+gi/WB1cnuIEj5Za62nfSBbQ+2ivoIZS7LiTaDc pmpQ4Ef5Gcyxcrxy9mQwarZqTrGRlMoE5+ymFA9mawidE1LzmBM7G08jTnRMeQi8uH5E PMdg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0dyRva/+gz+l6SKgia4XRHc6XRuJC9857W+FmdYusfrBeW9eNu E4CVk+AuvTYoM8sGTsugR9GwcnWyww865XG9wlk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vuMOsmYQcga18n6vXCAyhlgXvYWwpUHO2gYb1/tZCIEx437gsNN4FnXWxdBdoI8Fhla2GPrd1r720+4bQrdc4M= X-Received: by 2002:a92:9fd0:: with SMTP id z77mr5223570ilk.257.1585166358960; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:59:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <56183777-364A-4072-8C51-C17CF673938C@comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <56183777-364A-4072-8C51-C17CF673938C@comcast.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:59:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Deen, Glenn" Cc: ADD Mailing list , "add-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bc5db805a1b34da1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] ADD Virtual WG Tuesday March 24, 2000-2200 UTC X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:00:42 -0000 --000000000000bc5db805a1b34da1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The recording of this session is available on YouTube now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DV0nIZWU4bH0 thanks, Rob On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 2:19 PM Deen, Glenn wrote: > HI Everyone, > > > > Here=E2=80=99s some more information and preparation material for next Tu= esday=E2=80=99s > ADD WG Virtual meeting. > > > > Time: 2000-2200 UTC > > Date: Tuesday March 24, 2020 > > Location: WebEx > > > > > > Webex Info will be available on the IETF107 Meetnig Agenda Page: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/agenda > > > > > > You=E2=80=99ll also find the link there to the ADD Etherpad which for thi= s virtual > session is going to also be used for Blue-Sheets.Attendees are asked to > visit and enter your Name+Affiliation in the Blue-Sheet section of the AD= D > Etherpad. > > > > > > > > Draft Agenda for IETF107 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > 1. Introduction to ADD WG [Chairs ] > > 2. Agenda Bash > > 3. 15min draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-selection [Jari > Arkko/Ted Hardie ] > > 4. 15min discovery-selection directions [Tommy Pauly ] > > 5. 15min draft-btw-add-home [ Dan Wing] > > 6. 15min draft-reddy-dprive-bootstrap-dns-server [Dan Wing] > > 7. 15min draft-mglt-add-rdp [Daniel Migault] > > 8. 15min ADD Q&A [Chairs et al] > > > > > > Holding this as a virtual meeting is a first for the IETF and the first > meeting for ADD as well, so to make this as smooth as an experience for > everyone please join the ADD session at 2000 UTC and be ready. > > > > When you connect into WebEx you should start off as auto-muted so you=E2= =80=99ll > need to unmute yourself to speak. We won=E2=80=99t be using video strea= ming of > presenter during the session, they=E2=80=99ll be on audio and their slide= s will > appear on screen. The same goes for questions from the audience - audi= o > only. > > > > Mic Line Queue > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Mic Line will use the WebEx chat channel. To get in the queue type q= + > to leave type q-. Please don=E2=80=99t type questions or other thin= gs into > the WebEx chat channel as that will make managing the queue very hard for > the chairs. Please use the Jabber channel for side conversations. > > > > > > Helpful Info & Prep > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > The IETF has prepared some material to help get everyone ready, including > a reminder that you need to register for IETF107 as a remote participant = to > join remotely. > > > > Please read and follow the actions in: > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/107/session-participant-guide/ > > > > Finally, don=E2=80=99t forget to register as a remote participant for IET= F107 at: > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/register/ > > > > Volunteers? > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > We need volunteer(s) to help take notes to etherpad and to watch Jabber > for questions. If you=E2=80=99re willing please let the chairs ( > add-chairs@ietf.org) know. > > > > > > Regards, > > Dave and Glenn > > > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > --000000000000bc5db805a1b34da1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

The recording of this session i= s available on YouTube now:

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 2:19 PM Deen, Glenn <Glenn_Deen@comcast.com> wrote:

HI Everyone,

=C2=A0

Here=E2=80=99s some more information and preparation material = for next Tuesday=E2=80=99s ADD WG Virtual meeting.

=C2=A0

Time:=C2=A0 2000-2200 UTC

Date:=C2=A0 Tuesday March 24, 2020

Location: WebEx

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Webex Info will be available on the IETF107 Meetnig Agenda Pag= e:=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/agenda=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

You=E2=80=99ll also find the link there to the ADD Etherpad wh= ich for this virtual session is going to also be used for Blue-Sheets.Atten= dees are asked to visit and enter your Name+Affiliation in the Blue-Sheet section of the ADD Etherpad.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Draft Agenda for IETF107=C2=A0

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=C2=A0=

1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Introduction to ADD WG=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0[Chairs ]

2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Agenda Bash=

3. 15min=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-arkko-abcd-distributed-resolver-sel= ection=C2=A0=C2=A0[Jari Arkko/Ted Hardie ]

4. 15min=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0discovery-selection directions=C2=A0= [Tommy Pauly=C2=A0=C2=A0]=

5. 15min=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-btw-add-home=C2=A0=C2=A0[ Dan Wing]=

6. 15min=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-reddy-dprive-bootstrap-dns-server [= Dan Wing]

7. 15min=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-mglt-add-rdp=C2=A0=C2=A0[Daniel Mig= ault]

8.=C2=A015min=C2=A0=C2=A0 ADD Q&A=C2=A0=C2=A0[Chairs et al= ]

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Holding this as a virtual= meeting is a first for the IETF and the first meeting for ADD as well, so = to make this as smooth as an experience for everyone please join the ADD se= ssion at 2000 UTC and be ready.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

When you connect into Web= Ex you should start off as auto-muted so you=E2=80=99ll need to unmute your= self to speak.=C2=A0=C2=A0 We won=E2=80=99t be using video streaming of pre= senter during the session, they=E2=80=99ll be on audio and their slides will appear on screen.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The same goes for questions from the au= dience =C2=A0- audio only.

=C2=A0

Mi= c Line Queue

= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The Mic Line will use th= e WebEx chat channel.=C2=A0 To get in the queue type q+ to leave type q-.= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Please don=E2=80=99t type questions or= other things into the WebEx chat channel as that will make managing the qu= eue very hard for the chairs.=C2=A0 Please use the Jabber channel for side conversa= tions.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Helpful Info & Prep

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<= /p>

=C2=A0

The IETF has prepared som= e material to help get everyone ready, including a reminder that you need t= o register for IETF107 as a remote participant to join remotely.

=C2=A0=C2=A0

Pl= ease read and follow the actions in:=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.= org/how/meetings/107/session-participant-guide/

=C2=A0

Finally, don=E2=80=99t f= orget to register as a remote participant for IETF107 at:=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/register/

=C2=A0

Volunteers?

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D

=C2=A0

We need volunteer(s) to = help take notes to etherpad and to watch Jabber for questions. =C2=A0=C2=A0= If you=E2=80=99re willing please let the chairs (add-chairs@ietf.org) know.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

Regards,

Dave and Glenn

=C2=A0

--
Add mailing list
Add@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add
--000000000000bc5db805a1b34da1-- From nobody Wed Mar 25 16:43:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5743A077D for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3XxBWdP_5v3q for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com (nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com [17.151.62.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C91A3A0768 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 02PNVV2V046571; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:56 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=zD1zLKoxR1n/ZTCjmauIv2WVZWTdPK/qqreCJ5KL9aQ=; b=YCGcGTKv6NHIHTWlgSOxq+SS8u/RRfo9DOIN2976eHuUcoMTczQ0jX1BI55p82mCKQ+u mwhsP4IAgF2q81u/+QEqdhrN9+uK98rkmIITsSLNFfGR7zzID3zNS1E20lFnM0o9BaBf we79syqvd25orfGQgBd2VOZ2MXT0IkgwYHoTXAaq9aHsyIX4xQu3rj7ptc6LoOBado8k qKkSJJpf8lEqKHHcRFLt1TiMX+XpBUqXaNnrd4SeXWiW8iGqbZjUVZeJUvavRVr6cEYq TraVpjZm0F81NnVtYOiUni1H2rq2WsSyyv4LvBxoRD9ji6L1NQHM05BqiEhxY9ajPKd8 wg== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 2ywhv38bd6-3 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:55 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.17]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPS id <0Q7R00D3YWJJYU90@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) id <0Q7R00Z00WFHG400@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: c23d783ab285e2e2724c3baee78f3ad6 X-Va-E-CD: 1b29ea701340f768ed762e36645ac63e X-Va-R-CD: a2264a257d6a417bba7f3da85f318e8e X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 9fb4c2a0-c335-4934-a14b-d641ec2ca89e X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: c23d783ab285e2e2724c3baee78f3ad6 X-V-E-CD: 1b29ea701340f768ed762e36645ac63e X-V-R-CD: a2264a257d6a417bba7f3da85f318e8e X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 8e05cc82-c9b7-4857-bb2b-19b9187812fb X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.645 definitions=2020-03-25_13:2020-03-24, 2020-03-25 signatures=0 Received: from [17.235.26.226] (unknown [17.235.26.226]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q7R00Z3IWJILQ00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Sender: tpauly@apple.com Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.7.2.3\)) From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:42:54 -0700 Cc: add@ietf.org Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <2D741E61-9FFC-4A81-9EC6-274BC0AE68BF@apple.com> References: To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.7.2.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.645 definitions=2020-03-25_13:2020-03-24, 2020-03-25 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 23:43:00 -0000 Thanks for this summary, Martin. I completely agree that our focus on = discovery as a group needs to be around how the entities a client = interacts with offer resolver options to use, along with authentication = of these options. The policy decisions of how to use the information is = definitionally up to the client, and are not for this group to decide. I also agree that the entities that might have opinions about resolver = selection that are not a client device=E2=80=99s local network, or a = server that the device interacts with during usage (such as the OS, = application, or MDM configuration) belongs out of scope of any = mechanisms we define here. Those boil down to a client policy. I = certainly believe that operating systems and applications should be able = to implement overriding policies for resolver selection, generally by = user opt-in, but such an option is not part of =E2=80=9Cdiscovery=E2=80=9D= . Any case in which a device dynamically chooses to use a discovered = resolver does need to have some sort of authentication. Opinions from = entities that the client does not have a relationship with are not = useful. However, when we discuss authentication of the resolver information, we = may want to separate out: - the fact that a given DoT/DoH resolver exists - the opinion that a client *should* use this resolver for any given = queries I=E2=80=99d posit that the second part here is the more critical to = authenticate. I think any proposal that involves local-network provisioning (be that = DHCP, RA, or a local PvD) can only provide the first part of indicating = that a given resolver exists. I=E2=80=99d certainly prefer some = signaling mechanism that is not too easy to spoof (hence my suggestion = for the HTTPS-provided PvD JSON blob), but it=E2=80=99s relatively safe = for a client to be aware of a resolver as long as it does not choose to = use it until it learns more about it. Some solutions can provide = authentication along with initial discovery (DNSSEC signed records, = say), but the end set of solutions could include a combination of = unauthenticated protocols for discovery that require later confirmation. Thanks, Tommy > On Mar 24, 2020, at 9:36 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > As I raised this in the meeting, I think that it's only fair that I = include what I think the principles should be. >=20 > In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be = able to present their views on what resolver you should use. Client = policy will then dictate which - if any - of those is used. = Authentication of the source of these opinions is likely a necessary = input for the client policy decision. >=20 > It is discussing client policy that has caused us to get into = unproductive discussions. To be clear, I regard the question of whether = it is users or the software they choose to run that make policy = decisions to be firmly part of this discussion. We might variously = lament the ability of software to properly reflect the wishes of users, = but this is not the place to debate that. >=20 > That doesn't mean that you should expect the person serving you = sausages at a local deli to offer an opinion on what resolver you should = use. But we should look to provide ways in which entities that have = some relevant stake to make their opinion known. As a provider of = application software that might be interested in having its own = policies, I might expect to receive opinions from the following places: >=20 > * The networks that endpoints connect to. > * DNS servers that might be involved in answering queries. > * Other communication endpoints, such as sites or enterprise services, = and their representatives, such as CDNs or corporate IT. >=20 > These next three might not depend on a protocol that we define here, = but we can still recognize that there might be other entities involved = in expressing opinions and - for these - even setting policy: >=20 > * The operating system configuration. > * Various "owners" or stakeholders for the endpoint, such as an = employer or a government (this might not extend all the way to full = control of the device MDM-style, but it might still be relevant to the = client policy). > * Application configuration. >=20 > I don't personally see a lot of value in having entities other than = those from the first set of three stand on soapboxes to broadcast their = opinions about resolver choice, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong = with having other sources of opinions. So while the IETF could provide = more protocols, it's not a good use of our time and resources unless we = expect that the information would be acceptable to genuine client = policies. >=20 > When it comes to setting policy, authentication is important. When = making a decision about whether to use a particular resolver, depending = on the policy you have, it might be important that you know whose = opinion is guiding the decision. If you want a server that doesn't = store logs of queries for longer than a certain time, then I'm not aware = of a technical mechanism for verifying that claim. You likely have to = rely on the assertions of an entity you trust. Opinions received over = the delicatessen counter are unlikely to carry any particular weight. >=20 > It was good to see both Tommy and Dan address this question directly; = though I'm not sure I totally agree that the right trust anchors were = used, building in ways to authenticate an opinion makes it more likely = that client policy will allow use of the indicated resolver. >=20 > I think that the need to be flexible about authenticity derives = largely from the desire to allow networks to have an opinion. I know of = no way to authenticate the output of DHCP or a RA, except to say that = this is most likely the provider of the network who is speaking. That's = very weak authentication, so while it carries some weight, it's not a = lot. >=20 > So, I would suggest that the best we can hope for from this WG is a = set of mechanisms that report on resolver options/opinions and some = associated information that includes who provided the option/opinion and = how. >=20 > Cheers, > Martin >=20 > p.s., Regarding work on the table, I think that it is clear what the = models are driving draft-btw-add-home, draft-peterson-do[th]-dhcp, and = draft-pauly-dprive-adaptive-dns-privacy. I struggle a little with = draft-mglt-add-rdp in this regard and I would appreciate a little more = clarity about intent. It is possible that = draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection is firmly in the authentication = space, but it seems to be more firmly aimed at communicating policy than = I am currently comfortable with right now. >=20 > --=20 > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add From nobody Wed Mar 25 17:13:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2A33A07FC for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:13:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.259 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.259 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=hnorHG/R; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=q52hL7Er Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4RixOSCwHFWJ for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C54323A00C0 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28679 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2020 00:13:32 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=7005.5e7bf3ac.k2003; bh=Np4BXaQ+RxRnczTF+GHax+5BHpyZgE2yeEf92ZTr+WY=; b=hnorHG/RMh+5UBHSbTknjzvlPAY7wWLaeNPtyfv8x/3QV8YdjzAFYXV03QJjv2W+HfDxIMIycUDlkUy34zhyRX0UVNgW1RkFGjQu1vRHhtcO1fLeYkSE31AFfbbDAHyfUZsEZ6d+54/SeuCz9Zpar4WI6yFZOZY+SSGBdSUe1OTgZFcEJeWCWXt0CC6lceFTZcmB89L3Fg0c+NtgYwFH5DFXpgjC6uwvp24m50Fhy+VMLGtS+b484VSWxHn4/Kfo DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=7005.5e7bf3ac.k2003; bh=Np4BXaQ+RxRnczTF+GHax+5BHpyZgE2yeEf92ZTr+WY=; b=q52hL7Erddaj9n6N2ma1+TdB9eFtr6XuVPABNN1OJxCFpw5XmFsB5y8mGsb2nk+1ICzIO29Re7SqscAuVUDpigc190pOzDlZSXH0gVz4Y4K/DGVAtGT0Uwyc/MR7eCrUH4tjsH8XmvvlEM2z4RQETBxJ1itAPnyPZc//oAaH1rvk1WiBSRAPEPkOuKKTKNWhMjEspTiaeQnVe82QPTxT3o4j80i+GXRGSx5dmGDFJPc3SskVSg0WLFczG4rUrZA7 Received: from iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 26 Mar 2020 00:13:31 -0000 Received: by iecc.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id C1380169DB45; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: 25 Mar 2020 16:58:44 -0400 Message-Id: <20200325205845.337FA169C024@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: add@ietf.org Cc: mcmanus@ducksong.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 00:13:36 -0000 In article you write: >I think this is a pretty strong summary and a useful contribution - >thanks!. I might add that their view may include the scope of their >recommendation. (e.g. I'm a general recursive, I'm for this split horizon, >I'm for this authoritative, etc...) and, if we were making mission >statements, emphasize that authentication is something they are implicitly >conveying during presentation (even if its the absence of authentication). This is reminding me of the way people used to build spam filters, and not in a good way. When the filters didn't do the right thing with messages, the nerdy response was to add ever more knobs and buttons that the users could control to manually adjust the filtering rules. It didn't work -- most users didn't understand the controls, and for the ones that did, or thought they did, it was a support nightmare as they demanded ever more finegrained knobs they could try to tweak. What everyone does now is to have a very small set of standard filtering policies that work pretty well, typically one per system or one per enterprise in shared systems, and to the extent users can control their filtering, they do it implicitly by putting addresses they know in their address book and moving messages in and out of the spam folder. This isn't a perfect analogy, but I'm quite confident that the fewer decisions we expect users or their proxies to make, the more likely this is to work. R's, John From nobody Thu Mar 26 13:45:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912DD3A0DED for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:45:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvHN5_u73Gro for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53CFB3A0E7C for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id F112438981; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C118D03; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:45:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Martin Thomson" , add@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:45:40 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Martin Thomson wrote: > As I raised this in the meeting, I think that it's only fair that I > include what I think the principles should be. Thank you. > In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be > able to present their views on what resolver you should use. Client > policy will then dictate which - if any - of those is used. > Authentication of the source of these opinions is likely a necessary > input for the client policy decision. I find this a surprising suggestion. Will I get different answers if I ask different entities the same question? This seems to fall into MIF space, and I don't think that you mean to go there. > It is discussing client policy that has caused us to get into > unproductive discussions. To be clear, I regard the question of > whether it is users or the software they choose to run that make policy > decisions to be firmly part of this discussion. We might variously > lament the ability of software to properly reflect the wishes of users, > but this is not the place to debate that. Agreed. > That doesn't mean that you should expect the person serving you > sausages at a local deli to offer an opinion on what resolver you > should use. But we should look to provide ways in which entities that Let me expand upon your scenario. is it: "if you want mustard, you must ask at the counter" or: "if you ask at the counter, I'll give you (free) internet" > * The operating system configuration. > * Various "owners" or stakeholders for the endpoint, such as an employer or a government (this might not extend all the way to full control of the device MDM-style, but it might still be relevant to the client policy). > * Application configuration. > I don't personally see a lot of value in having entities other than > those from the first set of three stand on soapboxes to broadcast their > opinions about resolver choice, but there is nothing fundamentally > wrong with having other sources of opinions. So while the IETF could > provide more protocols, it's not a good use of our time and resources > unless we expect that the information would be acceptable to genuine > client policies. Agreed. > When it comes to setting policy, authentication is important. When > making a decision about whether to use a particular resolver, depending > on the policy you have, it might be important that you know whose > opinion is guiding the decision. If you want a server that doesn't > store logs of queries for longer than a certain time, then I'm not > aware of a technical mechanism for verifying that claim. So, to be clear, there is running code for verifying the claim, and a successful business transaction to do this. RATS will give us open-standard was to execute the entire stack, but it can be done in proprietary verticals today with third party auditors. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl59FGkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUZLwgAgwMTz3pP63VkH9sHeRGDYOuN1VtP04Dn8mzg3PntBuq0nb0Hb/z6cYGL ADzD6/CYSMaxu1nbJ9W+7Kb2nXrWJBYBXY9fy/mCmryQ0XWH+wDHNpwVuDYuBQmL upfx4JpuSa3TlMW7Zoitc7+oFwg0RsEoEl1czJE2o+tU3ze5gvPeho1bx9QuApBP wpCnwwlQ+/oxGQSgXXwlKzcTDqhMdOedcBSzLyx7wx1wB+djM8E6k7HsfQ2C2eJL QtC7TEGSuaBgB5tz27bL7IK0KhNilc3UKqgZRqp1H46950BLiYinPDF1Lz+CTh4G XR+TxEaFdxfg9AGWI3u2JM28UbNYhg== =5ZvE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 13:50:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247AD3A0EA4 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:49:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AX9s8erwP_vx for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F8853A0E23 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7AC538981 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BE6D03 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:49:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: add@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> References: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:49:59 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Vittorio Bertola wrote: > It seems to me that the model that especially draft-pauly is proposing > - i.e. every destination pointing the client to a resolver that the > destination controls - is functionally equivalent, in terms of who gets > to see which information, to eliminating the concept of an external > resolver and having the end-user device implement and run a full > resolver on its own. +1. Linking against libunbound is already a thing. You get DNSSEC too. We used centralized resolvers because of too little ram, and to enable caching. The issue that I see are: 1) so-called "DNS" firewalls, which are imposed as a condition of internet. Determining how/if/when we trust them. 2) IoT devices which have user, and which might really not have enough ram. While there are split-horizon DNS issues that many organizations deploy regularly, I think that they architectural concept is old, stale and broken. IPv6 provides better mechanisms, and we should recommend them. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl59FWMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUEMQf/T1a/XmQIH4Pv5GcbbctjW2dxsHifODgKCE3AQJsH5Hrh7vT6OvpouWtF jL3dBqQDNLmg68wDgPD1ZFdX5llJurhB9dogUOYUIKXTcT7Rs9fug/MJq5zCNHaf 5FjjzjxR/NV6YKAxNBy/+Rf/6yRb+INoP5Aqram6CctRLjj0VXSofFQ3Rf61a3QP XouYKDQGR38sQxfvDlE39LAnn/FpBKYs+yzpu6Ru/+rxVe8H35a0aOmg4kaclHMM Ez0qBIzrFo/eB7DeEeyzEQ2wqphYinSmjy4bsp+tCVYXWOPp1VwpLejEnEyI7oV2 wwBwt8SP2dSO3s2YkS6fd1xLdiUGGQ== =JeTA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 16:26:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7243A0DC3 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:26:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 70QtVFmtnjni for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa31.google.com (mail-vk1-xa31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B57B53A0D70 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa31.google.com with SMTP id v129so1867302vkf.10 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:26:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=r3yg6KhY/mbCd/xC4lS5uGLlRl9d1ODP05QLPssp7DY=; b=YsVr1e2p+Wxo8/RKc5cAIL4w2E5IejwW4iF9HJGjbRtodI9D1KmI3O4dhmqcxc8Sjk 1fVA6jO7ucQtyXVmKWAHwetf2rsRJfnw7JomhQaYIZ9Ia2DUKJW9ycn7DXEWJ59XWTr8 onoAxQCUQAsUYzULcix+vBpS5dY+P28sxlD0bXUkwutEUr3l7CaKGRYzSi4aktH68Qrs GAygn+BQ4vWZ/cfh7XQkK/lE6pbkn12JIK5zrh1OK4PoZ/v1QW/k2K5rjqZ6nY3fY+/P 2eN0NRAPn4l7RSr5a0Bokrebo0a6HxH20/nV0Jpv1gkBFQMNqHPh8sBn1m6o5rHkNqwn KVrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=r3yg6KhY/mbCd/xC4lS5uGLlRl9d1ODP05QLPssp7DY=; b=ZjOIJzbrlTCgSPEu6SCI5uuE2ZPAJL/rJT0rhJqrGpMXDHJVFu2BnjRLgX5tjrY8Nt iktFlERCVTIMWstYGL8P2awS1A463FUvNOmSgy3ajf1PVc0wb+1kKdKLJFxueyE8NEx5 kNRA3Pkh12P+35XgE5vCrJSF6doVb7x+7pPx9784McNzly0bfa+syMazqJ5UeDMhVqF8 yJcZRuuhFP5T2DrnVp0aIhC/FvFHGkcrDZmeZ1JvaEJwQoSzOc1zZZtGUJVyaZTua6MP 9v5D6P/CpAW3bKE8SPKp9I6ijgdaHKhtjtpjvaMot8Mkk5l+7+65SOCIk7k8P2WMccg0 2swA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2SxMOaPe6eovPiGhOoLCj5cy/nLw2oEMsYgwvizrpNOxYfh/97 YEexIPz1iJwWjCq4Ksea0QqoJe52br2ceVA18Xa7d+Y5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsyVSkJvqW2uLH9PQk4V+8HLZkPPbZA18EBMz3zHI2A+S35kVWlb9+rzzt2bBZkOsBV3FMmt23RwgSDydPdilw= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:a2d0:: with SMTP id l199mr8880082vke.77.1585265171227; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:26:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 19:26:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: ADD Mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000067e76305a1ca4f79" Archived-At: Subject: [Add] DRDP: response to feed backs provided during the meeting X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 23:26:29 -0000 --00000000000067e76305a1ca4f79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Thank you for the feed backs provided during the meeting. Here is a response to three concerns raised during the meeting. Feel free to let me know your thoughts. 1. One comment was that having a unique centralize repository of resolving domains for public resolvers was a terrible idea. I agree with this as it implies a complex governance. I will update the draft and let it as "a" repositories for resolving domains instead. I however believe that repositories of resolving domain share a common format so one is able to switch easily and move from one repo to the other. Note that resolving domains associated to local resolvers may also happen to be found in such repos. Currently I am not convinced that we should envision a large number of local resolving domains, but I am happy to hear otherwise. 2. Another comment concerned the number of resolving domains. I think I recall that the current list of resolvers used by the Google Public DNS is greater than 11.000. I do not know if that list is available but I am wondering whether these entries are IP addresses or domain names. I suspect that IP addresses are used and that some ISPs are proposing multiple IP addresses. If that is correct, handling resolving domains instead of IP addresses might help reduce the length. Of course this assume sthe discovery protocol will help discovery the IP addresses. In addition, I am also wondering how much these entries are "public" resolvers that are globally available. I suspect that, thought global IP addresses may be used, their access might be limited to DNS client that belong to a specific network. Again this is only a suspicion and I am happy to learn more about. Thought I am not sure I am using relevant links, the link below mention a 50ish of domains. https://github.com/curl/curl/wiki/DNS-over-HTTPS#publicly-available-servers https://dnsprivacy.org/wiki/display/DP/DNS+Privacy+Test+Servers#DNSPrivacyTestServers-Publicresolvers The link below provides much more public resolvers 11.000 public resolving, but I suspect that most of them are open resolver. Of course these are public, but maybe not what we expect when we mention public resolver - which is probably why a centralized repository is a terrible idea. https://public-dns.info/ Overall, I have the impression that we have 11000 entries because we are missing a discovery protocol and that a the list for global resolver (expressed as domain) is expected to remain much smaller. 3. Regarding the format, to be used to host a list of resolving domain, the use of DNS messages to host the list seems to me wise as DNS is the protocol that for sure DNS client will understand. In addition, I believe that tcp will be able to handle large list of domains. One drawback thought seems that we may not be able to compress this list with gzip for example. Using a URI that redirects to an HTTPS or FTP requires the DNS client to have these protocols which is not given nor necessary. I am happy to hear your thoughts on this. Yours, Daniel -- Daniel Migault Ericsson --00000000000067e76305a1ca4f79 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Thank you for the feed backs provided during t= he meeting. Here
is a response to three concerns raised during the meet= ing. Feel=C2=A0
free to let me know your thoughts.=C2=A0

1= . One comment was that having a unique centralize repository of
resolvin= g domains for public resolvers was a terrible idea. I
agree with this as= it implies a complex governance. I will update
the draft and let it as = "a" repositories for resolving domains
instead. I however beli= eve that repositories of resolving domain
share a common format so one i= s able to switch easily and move
from one repo to the other.

Not= e that resolving domains associated to local resolvers may also
happen t= o be found in such repos. Currently I am not convinced
that we should en= vision a large number of local resolving
domains, but I am happy to hear= otherwise. =C2=A0

2. Another comment concerned the number of resolv= ing domains. I
think I recall that the current list of resolvers used by= the
Google Public DNS is greater than 11.000. I do not know if that
= list is available but I am wondering whether these entries are IP
addres= ses or domain names. I suspect that IP addresses are used
and that some = ISPs are proposing multiple IP addresses. If that
is correct, handling r= esolving domains instead of IP addresses
might help reduce the length. O= f course this assume sthe
discovery protocol will help discovery the IP = addresses. In
addition, I am also wondering how much these entries are &= quot;public"
resolvers that are globally available. I suspect that,= thought
global IP addresses may be used, their access might be limited = to
DNS client that belong to a specific network. Again this is only
a= suspicion and I am happy to learn more about. =C2=A0

Thought I am n= ot sure I am using relevant links, the link below
mention a 50ish of dom= ains.
https://github.com/curl/curl/wiki/DNS-over-HTTPS#pub= licly-available-servers
https= ://dnsprivacy.org/wiki/display/DP/DNS+Privacy+Test+Servers#DNSPrivacyTestSe= rvers-Publicresolvers

The link below provides much more public r= esolvers 11.000 public
resolving, but I suspect that most of them are op= en resolver. Of
course these are public, but maybe not what we expect wh= en we
mention public resolver - which is probably why a centralized
r= epository is a terrible idea. =C2=A0ht= tps://public-dns.info/

Overall, I have the impression that we ha= ve 11000 entries because
we are missing a discovery protocol and that a = the list for
global resolver (expressed as domain) is expected to remain= much
smaller.
=C2=A0
3. Regarding the format, to be used to hos= t a list of resolving
domain, the use of DNS messages to host the list s= eems to me wise
as DNS is the protocol that for sure DNS client will und= erstand.
In addition, I believe that tcp will be able to handle large li= st
of domains. One drawback thought seems that we may not be able to
= compress this list with gzip for example. Using a URI that
redirects to = an HTTPS or FTP requires the DNS client to have
these protocols which is= not given nor necessary. I am happy to
hear your thoughts on this.
=
Yours,
Daniel



--
<= div>Daniel Migault
Ericsson
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h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=B1308q5WLSkGJ9mHbYJAHxbdN0mLEZ5tim1xk4I2xq8=; b=jCnVi1EWLzMJFvUKNi9QKJXM1pJuamvbuZXOZJqEerOWKfIqYKRhigGXRR2HTyDx7G T7hUiTEDR5AfstEe4B9yjLDA4N3oAweWlJ4X1mQAs5gso7Q47oRoqkCE4obCoO+bTy4B 5bpwNAo6qjdvtGDKjaevri+rusa760ywU2VV7q0MiEmrNIdVZALPeXLwLjs/KqRUliuC 2ilqGKkAsobI/Ise70WGZY7zHAYjkH4SZeQUJvOVPX/4HqnC+fKNUjdvqhkdeGs4DjGl tEMQbDTyykwNgRScmaAop6KAff+pYzKc2uLIUT8qsLm0HRAPD55Rr61I3o6WaOf89IIO 1cag== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0n3IboNOi9ZRcdaa9LNKcnTm1u0qxVat8gbcWSDz6yvUCXX99w IBXImUmAbmBfo91K8rh0GRciwPPdiTLT4oPlrDmf0Gha X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsZoiQ/D+KiJFEcVyCDePo4P4Jt/M/EV7GsfbBVIGf9c2pzJQWJyj5LeynodgrnZEsal6R8DXznDnzK8Qx1jRk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:3141:: with SMTP id x62mr9152586vsx.31.1585267800388; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:10:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:09:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: ADD Mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001db7d905a1caec55" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:10:05 -0000 --0000000000001db7d905a1caec55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 12:37 AM Martin Thomson wrote: > As I raised this in the meeting, I think that it's only fair that I > include what I think the principles should be. > > In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be able > to present their views on what resolver you should use. Client policy will > then dictate which - if any - of those is used. Authentication of the > source of these opinions is likely a necessary input for the client policy > decision. > > It is discussing client policy that has caused us to get into unproductive > discussions. To be clear, I regard the question of whether it is users or > the software they choose to run that make policy decisions to be firmly > part of this discussion. We might variously lament the ability of software > to properly reflect the wishes of users, but this is not the place to > debate that. > > I think I also agree. The policy should in theory be independent from the application enforcing that policy. The problem is that a formal definition of what such policy is likely to never be defined, and as such a large part of it will be defined by the application. For that reason, the policy is likely be represented by the application itself. In other words, not everything is being configured by the end user and we assume the application reflects the end user policy. - this also suppose the end user will have the choice between different applications. That said, the policy enforced by the application may involve some interaction of the end user during the selection process. I also believe that some means may be provided so the application may notify the end user of the resulting selection. That doesn't mean that you should expect the person serving you sausages > at a local deli to offer an opinion on what resolver you should use. But > we should look to provide ways in which entities that have some relevant > stake to make their opinion known. As a provider of application software > that might be interested in having its own policies, I might expect to > receive opinions from the following places: > > * The networks that endpoints connect to. > * DNS servers that might be involved in answering queries. > * Other communication endpoints, such as sites or enterprise services, and > their representatives, such as CDNs or corporate IT. > > The end user may have a say in the selection process. I agree that interaction with the end user should be limited and that such interaction is up to the application performing the selection. It thus sounds to me that some election parameter should be designed to be presented to the end user. I also do not think we should go much further than a UTF8 string. The scenarios I would envision is that a list of resolvers is proposed to the end user. Another thing is that when one resolver is chosen or changed, the end user may be notified of that change or selection. I am unsure I clearly get the third bullet. I understand it includes things such as: * some configuration parameters to perform some resolutions over * a specific resolver a web site to advertise a preferred * resolver. > > These next three might not depend on a protocol that we define here, but > we can still recognize that there might be other entities involved in > expressing opinions and - for these - even setting policy: > > * The operating system configuration. > * Various "owners" or stakeholders for the endpoint, such as an employer > or a government (this might not extend all the way to full control of the > device MDM-style, but it might still be relevant to the client policy). > * Application configuration. > I would see those entities as being able to configure/provide information to the application that proceed to the selection. > I don't personally see a lot of value in having entities other than those > from the first set of three stand on soapboxes to broadcast their opinions > about resolver choice, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with having > other sources of opinions. So while the IETF could provide more protocols, > it's not a good use of our time and resources unless we expect that the > information would be acceptable to genuine client policies. > > When it comes to setting policy, authentication is important. When making > a decision about whether to use a particular resolver, depending on the > policy you have, it might be important that you know whose opinion is > guiding the decision. If you want a server that doesn't store logs of > queries for longer than a certain time, then I'm not aware of a technical > mechanism for verifying that claim. You likely have to rely on the > assertions of an entity you trust. Opinions received over the delicatessen > counter are unlikely to carry any particular weight. > > I believe the end user may decide to trust the delicateness counter more than other ways. Think of an IETF meeting happening nearby the deli. I am not convinced it is an easy problem to select what the end user trust. It was good to see both Tommy and Dan address this question directly; > though I'm not sure I totally agree that the right trust anchors were used, > building in ways to authenticate an opinion makes it more likely that > client policy will allow use of the indicated resolver. > > I think that the need to be flexible about authenticity derives largely > from the desire to allow networks to have an opinion. I know of no way to > authenticate the output of DHCP or a RA, except to say that this is most > likely the provider of the network who is speaking. That's very weak > authentication, so while it carries some weight, it's not a lot. > > I think RFC3971 and RFC3118 are at least an attempt to provide authentication. I am unaware of large deployment of these mechanisms. DHCP / RA may provide an IP address without authentication, but this could be used as an hint to retrieved authenticated information. If DHCP/RA is being spoofed, this may end up in the resolver you connect NOT being the one proposed by the ISP, but at least upon the selection you can trust who you are connected to. > So, I would suggest that the best we can hope for from this WG is a set > of mechanisms that report on resolver options/opinions and some associated > information that includes who provided the option/opinion and how. > > I agree. Cheers, > Martin > > p.s., Regarding work on the table, I think that it is clear what the > models are driving draft-btw-add-home, draft-peterson-do[th]-dhcp, and > draft-pauly-dprive-adaptive-dns-privacy. I struggle a little with > draft-mglt-add-rdp in this regard and I would appreciate a little more > clarity about intent. I am happy to clarify anything that does not appear to be clear. The intent is (limited) to enable the discovery resolving services available. All resolving services provided by example.com are listed under _dns.example.com and selection parameters are provided through SVCB RRsets. Since you need example.com to start the discovery, we define a repo that contains resolving domain the dns client may consider for global resolver. We also define a possible way to derive the resolving domain from the local resolver advertised by the DHCP RA. Other ways may be defined to communicate resolving domains (DHCP for example) Currently the resolving domain take part of the selection by only providing a preference on the resolving service. Since DNS is used to carry this information it may be requested by a dns client or eventually provided as additional data by a resolver the dns client interacts with. > It is possible that draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection is firmly in > the authentication space, but it seems to be more firmly aimed at > communicating policy than I am currently comfortable with right now. > > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > -- Daniel Migault Ericsson --0000000000001db7d905a1caec55 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Mar 25, 2020= at 12:37 AM Martin Thomson <mt@low= entropy.net> wrote:
As I raised this in the meeting, I think that it's only fair= that I include what I think the principles should be.

In short, I believe that any entity that you interact with should be able t= o present their views on what resolver you should use.=C2=A0 Client policy = will then dictate which - if any - of those is used.=C2=A0 Authentication o= f the source of these opinions is likely a necessary input for the client p= olicy decision.

It is discussing client policy that has caused us to get into unproductive = discussions.=C2=A0 To be clear, I regard the question of whether it is user= s or the software they choose to run that make policy decisions to be firml= y part of this discussion.=C2=A0 We might variously lament the ability of s= oftware to properly reflect the wishes of users, but this is not the place = to debate that.

=C2=A0<mglt>
I think I also agree. The pol= icy should in theory be independent
from the application enforcing that = policy. The problem is that a
formal definition of what such policy is l= ikely to never be defined,
and as such a large part of it will be define= d by the
application. For that reason, the policy is likely be represent= ed
by the application itself. In other words, not everything is beingconfigured by the end user and we assume the application
reflects the e= nd user policy. - this also suppose the end user
will have the choice be= tween different applications.

That said, the policy enforced by the = application may involve
some interaction of the end user during the sele= ction process. I
also believe that some means may be provided so the app= lication
may notify the end user of the resulting selection.
</mgl= t>

=C2=A0That d= oesn't mean that you should expect the person serving you sausages at a= local deli to offer an opinion on what resolver you should use.=C2=A0 But = we should look to provide ways in which entities that have some relevant st= ake to make their opinion known.=C2=A0 As a provider of application softwar= e that might be interested in having its own policies, I might expect to re= ceive opinions from the following places:

* The networks that endpoints connect to.
* DNS servers that might be involved in answering queries.
* Other communication endpoints, such as sites or enterprise services, and = their representatives, such as CDNs or corporate IT.

=C2=A0<mglt>
The end user may have a say i= n the selection process.=C2=A0 I agree
that interaction with the end use= r should be limited and that
such interaction is up to the application p= erforming the
selection. It thus sounds to me that some election paramet= er
should be designed to be presented to the end user. I also do not
= think we should go much further than a UTF8 string.
The scenarios I woul= d envision is that a list of resolvers is
proposed to the end user. Anot= her thing is that when one resolver
is chosen or changed, the end user m= ay be notified of that
change or selection.

I am unsure I clearly= get the third bullet. I understand it
includes things such as:
* som= e configuration parameters to perform some resolutions over
* a specific= resolver a web site to advertise a preferred
* resolver.
</mglt&g= t;
These next three might not depend on a protocol that we define here, but we= can still recognize that there might be other entities involved in express= ing opinions and - for these - even setting policy:

* The operating system configuration.
* Various "owners" or stakeholders for the endpoint, such as an e= mployer or a government (this might not extend all the way to full control = of the device MDM-style, but it might still be relevant to the client polic= y).
* Application configuration.
=C2=A0<mglt>
I would see those entities a= s being able to configure/provide
information to the application = that proceed to the selection.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
I don't personally see a lot of value in having entities other than tho= se from the first set of three stand on soapboxes to broadcast their opinio= ns about resolver choice, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with hav= ing other sources of opinions.=C2=A0 So while the IETF could provide more p= rotocols, it's not a good use of our time and resources unless we expec= t that the information would be acceptable to genuine client policies.

When it comes to setting policy, authentication is important.=C2=A0 When ma= king a decision about whether to use a particular resolver, depending on th= e policy you have, it might be important that you know whose opinion is gui= ding the decision.=C2=A0 If you want a server that doesn't store logs o= f queries for longer than a certain time, then I'm not aware of a techn= ical mechanism for verifying that claim.=C2=A0 You likely have to rely on t= he assertions of an entity you trust.=C2=A0 Opinions received over the deli= catessen counter are unlikely to carry any particular weight.

=C2=A0<mglt>
I believe the end user may de= cide to trust the delicateness
counter more than other ways. Think of an= IETF meeting happening
nearby the deli. I am not convinced it is an eas= y problem to
select what the end user trust.
</mglt>

=C2=A0It was good to see bot= h Tommy and Dan address this question directly; though I'm not sure I t= otally agree that the right trust anchors were used, building in ways to au= thenticate an opinion makes it more likely that client policy will allow us= e of the indicated resolver.

I think that the need to be flexible about authenticity derives largely fro= m the desire to allow networks to have an opinion.=C2=A0 I know of no way t= o authenticate the output of DHCP or a RA, except to say that this is most = likely the provider of the network who is speaking.=C2=A0 That's very w= eak authentication, so while it carries some weight, it's not a lot.
=C2=A0<mglt>
I think RFC3971 and RFC3118 a= re at least an attempt to provide
authentication. I am unaware of large = deployment of these
mechanisms. DHCP / RA may provide =C2=A0an IP addres= s without
authentication, but this could be used as an hint to retrieved=
authenticated information. If DHCP/RA is being spoofed, this may
end= up in the resolver you connect NOT being the one proposed by
the ISP, b= ut at least upon the selection you can trust who you
are connected to.</mglt>
=C2=A0= So, I would suggest that the best we can hope for from this WG is a set of = mechanisms that report on resolver options/opinions and some associated inf= ormation that includes who provided the option/opinion and how.

=C2=A0<mglt>
I agree.
</mglt>

=C2=A0Cheers,
Martin

p.s., Regarding work on the table, I think that it is clear what the models= are driving draft-btw-add-home, draft-peterson-do[th]-dhcp, and draft-paul= y-dprive-adaptive-dns-privacy.=C2=A0 I struggle a little with draft-mglt-ad= d-rdp in this regard and I would appreciate a little more clarity about int= ent.=C2=A0
<mglt>
I am happy to clarify anything= that does not appear to be clear.

The intent is (limited) to enable= the discovery resolving services available.
All resolving services prov= ided by example.com are listed under
= _dns.example.com and selection param= eters are provided through SVCB RRsets.

Since you need example.com to start the discovery, we define a repo = that
contains resolving domain the dns client may consider for global re= solver. We
also define a possible way to derive the resolving domain fro= m the local
resolver advertised by the DHCP RA.

Other ways may be= defined to communicate resolving domains (DHCP
for example)

Curr= ently the resolving domain take part of the selection by only providing apreference on the resolving service.

Since DNS is used to carry th= is information it may be requested by a dns client
or eventually provide= d as additional data by a resolver the dns client
interacts with.
</mglt>
=C2=A0
It is possible that draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection= is firmly in the authentication space, but it seems to be more firmly aime= d at communicating policy than I am currently comfortable with right now.
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Daniel Migault
Ericsson
--0000000000001db7d905a1caec55-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 17:45:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E089B3A0A47 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:45:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=XJguqIOa; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=yytzrLe4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UZrzm5uP0f6F for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02B473A0A46 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F4D841; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:45:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=zCxM+A4dzPLKQ6LqdZ0w+5kovpD0z5F MRyf1XJqA254=; b=XJguqIOasipEkzb8OgKxJ/gJBpCnCBIonOJCSICEBGxgXOP 23dLfU+L6lko3ks0GTXtD8tq82TxpXfTmaa7gmKU1fR6R4/cxXAyr0rK1xD388WI Vd8qxoIugGtykUR9fDWMe8EKI08RBVU/pJSQGgDruIyLjMNW6xBhDbr7aXFZ8BKQ JKqVMdUWxuLTASQG8uFAtJCl1ddnIH1ySnKLfL9QaMqn7+tH04f4P44IsjB743Rn RCbu6WUMsnJblQoIfnily97NSZBMTKkoJBMZTcoFG11OO8gtmRs86LsPiIZ94bOy uywLDFpph6bn+9EfblfQs+BL48Y/jY4lkVU7o9A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=zCxM+A 4dzPLKQ6LqdZ0w+5kovpD0z5FMRyf1XJqA254=; b=yytzrLe4RykTMXo5KA/KvV rDqp6AGqcHg0ZBSjtQlnOrkfas3T3hFd2wA3kBSJ+OvoVa1TWam7G3zLFhdlzhDX SpEz7MoYJCALjYFW3ViINHenW235yRPnpAAeH6Y31kKJH75t3DbepKbLjnvvwz83 yRt19XBfE234FHwGKM46vfROq+oMO+wPIXyBmvS5hp7y9q9qNoG6JUx7Vpaq3Ktz +TPlYWTWnTPh1vzs6FkEunW+OutHodQpzAqnp5YEi3D7+h7287LjHKyS+ZpZDl/8 xP1XyU4erxYGJjJuodMyVejyOqH3/mMWGrS4wf6IxDQS6n00iosptGIXXUNGTdVw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrudehjedguddvgecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgr rhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenuc ffohhmrghinhepvgigrghmphhlvgdrtghomhdpvgigrghmphhlvgdrnhgvthenucevlhhu shhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnh htrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id CF8B5E00BB; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:45:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-1021-g152deaf-fmstable-20200319v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <08c407f3-e0bc-46c2-9864-c7d4c347811b@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> References: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:44:58 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Vittorio Bertola" , add@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:22 -0000 Thanks for the question. I agree that this is hard. On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, at 18:32, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > "Any entity you interact with" already has a way to tell you - even > force you - to use a name server they control to effect resolution of > their domain names. It's called "authoritative name server". This is a good point. I hesitated before adding this to the list, because I get your point. What Tommy proposes does look quite a bit like having the client perform recursion itself with different spelling. But I don't think that is precisely what is being proposed, nor does it have to be designed precisely that way. For instance, it is conceivable that I might interact with example.com and have it say things about what resolver to use for example.net without following the delegation path (and the DNSSEC chain) from the root. A client policy in which that is permissible isn't totally implausible. I don't think that is exactly what Tommy presented and I'm not trying to speak for that group of authors. I'm trying to be inclusive here and allow for their design and variations on the same. Because these are entities that *might* have a stake in the success of the eventual interaction that DNS is facilitating. That is all. > I assume that this is also what you are envisaging, since the > alternative - every destination pointing the client to a resolver which > they don't control, but with which they have commercial or other > agreements - opens up the potential for much heavier security threat, > centralization and surveillance scenarios than it is ever possible > today, so I would expect it to be ruled out much like other > out-of-same-origin practices. See, I think that this line of argumentation is firmly out of scope for this group. I think that it is fine to express your opinions about what policies a client might consider as valid, and to factor those things you identify into how those opinions are formed, but this group is setup specifically not to contemplate that. Finding ways to express how those opinions manifest within the scope of this group's charter is what we need to try to do. Which is awkward, but thank you for doing that here: > So - why do we need to develop all this complex machinery just to let > destinations indicate some kind of resolver that does the same thing > that their authoritative already does? What's the difference with just > implementing a full resolver in the client? Yes, this is the right question to ask, and totally within scope. I too am not entirely convinced in the value of the complexity trade-off in the specific case you cited, but I also don't know that I really understand how this works from a hollistic perspective either. I find the idea that I might allow Google (for example) to point me at 8.8.8.8 for the purposes of name resolutions I make within the context of my interactions with Google of interest. Of perhaps more interest, is extending that to third party resources that are involved in the same interaction as that might allow for better scoping of how information about my DNS interactions is distributed, to go back to the resolver selection motivation. I think that it is also has some potential pitfalls in that setup, particularly as it pertains to the distribution of information about individuals and their interests. But that does mean - at least for me - that there is a policy that leads to something like what Tommy proposes, which might in turn motivate this group to consider designing a mechanism. And that policy is at least plausible. That's the careful balance this group has: we can't talk about policies because we know we don't all agree. But we really need to understand whether there is some motivation for doing the work that is at least plausible. This is likely a question for chairs, but if we want to avoid the policy discussions, maybe they would prefer to say that as long as there is sufficient interest then work might proceed rather than trying to avoid objections. Or at least avoiding objections on policy grounds, because there are objections that are in scope and derive from things outside of the contested policy questions. From nobody Thu Mar 26 17:46:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9403E3A0A46 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:46:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tadfru3GTSvR for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa32.google.com (mail-vk1-xa32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECB333A0C93 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa32.google.com with SMTP id m131so2259137vkh.3 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:46:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=k6X5rbIPaF/3ZLFL7fe3JGyEIYZnuHhaUakqC4aGeoA=; b=KaLKUUs5fsbWuWpxcnTtZ+pURcTPMM19Q9Ho3L0lTEMhMingsgyRO4yrci+c9NJMs7 ks8XYuGzzmBPDyOpX4B2U21s6NFXsicFBxlq4XqU43VQHRu9nCPmlIcwPU6IWONRBzxS 2Odk1lJgEUnK8Lc/PojtdXEE/6lQqCdK0LC167DUG5NyUAIBm3n7oSBh0T4lejnfANMx DZZRcxX1w5gm+KRfiXYwk+YG9Vo+0LWJpMX42gc6W36eaRBRkgJSCyzLjpObuGVaAp/w 1jPOCMEnBwi4jVWaXSR0KyQQWJekHVp9FLprCeW7tz6TVd88mWsc5jCfqRh/DFIPPf6M imGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=k6X5rbIPaF/3ZLFL7fe3JGyEIYZnuHhaUakqC4aGeoA=; b=c6xgCvTWQvzR8Dzxv22BSon3S5P04l+4t/XAcDPNMf0dxvkJ+zLF5S+BEDOYMyhZED jklOdSyI7ag3B+NbHyN1Eh62O39SM+RlFVyxQt9WgSGBEMCx0l1BmhGm48mzh0sxsWEk 6WMC7XH4VbxxeHmO0cvnl5DYgXdtA9vReONLwuF3FsvyHocQ2+U2kuKnYiu/bv2CIi1F 0EmiWINrfSEBCl2lIYEPbGYOPJr6Db5rTh3F8iDG0IYDZ4wCclOWXVAqCkLq+wOK3Ilg tOa2Ewnuzucig5d7nVny9wylE58eLTHPTMwIpMwY/OxMANmrC6Gg5X7m4PsVafudNPXz ff0A== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0K6GgLsAt84qN20aF1OS0JGsTv6i1vIiFwrRAVfwWbSrbBOf0M PmDqH4cJEeSOuXyf4/I0NKzZPBIZEgGogz05hsA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vuJTEv37r7rf0CB+YDb6B+J53RT4ZW4rWmsXey8lyL9zoRyIvpI+gy2420NFvaqEfaFhDn9q72bMP2GUBD7FsQ= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:60d5:: with SMTP id u204mr9303947vkb.55.1585269979832; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:46:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15470670-015C-4C13-9B14-26D74FB87AD2@nbcuni.com> In-Reply-To: <15470670-015C-4C13-9B14-26D74FB87AD2@nbcuni.com> From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:46:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" Cc: ADD Mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000564ca05a1cb6ea3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] DRDP: response to feed backs provided during the meeting X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:46:24 -0000 --0000000000000564ca05a1cb6ea3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the feed backs Glenn. This is also an opinion I share. The main motivation for using DNS is that DNS is for sure supported by the DNS client. As the repo is expected to simply return a list of domains. One way to do could consist in listing the resolving domains in TXT RRsets. Another way could consists in listing these domains using PTR RRsets which would enable sanity check over the domain name. The current document uses the second method and the repo designated by example.com would be represented as: _rdns.example.com PTR resolving_domain_0 PTR resolving_domain_n One inconvenient of using DNS seems that I am not aware of mechanisms to compress the list of resolving domain beyond the compression provided by RFC1035. I suspect such compression will be less efficient than gzipping the entire list but in a txt file. Yours! Daniel On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 7:52 PM Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) < Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote: > Without hat. > > > > On 3/26/20, 4:26 PM, "Add on behalf of Daniel Migault" < > add-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mglt.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > Thank you for the feed backs provided during the meeting. Here > > is a response to three concerns raised during the meeting. Feel > > free to let me know your thoughts. > > 1.. One comment was that having a unique centralize repository of > resolving domains for public resolvers was a terrible idea. I > agree with this as it implies a complex governance. I will update > the draft and let it as "a" repositories for resolving domains > instead. I however believe that repositories of resolving domain > share a common format so one is able to switch easily and move > from one repo to the other. > > Isn=E2=80=99t the DNS itself a global repository of domains? Could some= thing be > signed and published in it? > > > Yours, > Daniel > > > > -- > > Daniel Migault > > Ericsson > --=20 Daniel Migault Ericsson --0000000000000564ca05a1cb6ea3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the feed backs Glenn. This is also an opin= ion I share. The main motivation for using DNS is that DNS is for sure supported by the = DNS client.=C2=A0
As the repo is expected to simply return a list of domains.=C2=A0 O= ne way to do could consist in listing the resolving domains in TXT RRsets. Another way could=C2=A0consists in listing these domai= ns using PTR RRsets which would enable sanity check ov= er the domain name.=C2=A0

The current=C2=A0documen= t uses the second method and the r= epo designated by e= xample.com would be represented as:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PTR resolving_domain_0
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0P= TR resolving_domain_n

One inconvenient of u= sing DNS seems that I am n= ot aware of mechanisms to compress the list of resolving domain beyond the = compression provided by RFC1035. I suspect such compression will be less ef= ficient than gzipping the = entire list but in a txt= =C2=A0file.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Yours!
Daniel
<= /div>
O= n Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 7:52 PM Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) <Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com>= wrote:

Without hat.

=C2=A0<= u>

On 3/26/20, 4:26 PM, &qu= ot;Add on behalf of Daniel Migault" <add-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mglt.ietf@gmail.co= m> wrote:

=C2=A0

Hi,

Thank you for the feed backs provided during the meeting. Here

is a response to three c= oncerns raised during the meeting. Feel=C2=A0

free to let me know your thoughts.=C2=A0

1.. One comment was that having a unique centralize repository of
resolving domains for public resolvers was a terrible idea. I
agree with this as it implies a complex governance. I will update
the draft and let it as "a" repositories for resolving domains instead. I however believe that repositories of resolving domain
share a common format so one is able to switch easily and move
from one repo to the other.

Isn=E2=80=99t the DNS itself a global repository of domains?= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Could something be signed and published in it?


Yours,
Daniel

=C2=A0

--

Daniel Migault=

Ericsson



--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson
--0000000000000564ca05a1cb6ea3-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 17:55:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18433A0C1A for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:55:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=vFNNF1qh; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=OKRG/Wgf Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RDeBAKKjUZZq for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBD3B3A0408 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 80874 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2020 00:55:53 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=13be7.5e7d4f19.k2003; bh=E0subA+ZduYP+WgjG2MtJ/xZ7cAeCFzqrOvsIoY0FfY=; b=vFNNF1qh4PsK9zOIQZa2RIRw4xW+8ALVZobTx5NHbgYA8g65CEPp4Z7bvDlUHaGl6lOVYwt8T48VHB0mR1vx8DLLfb2gawrfr9QqZC9C8FI2bgtGNJIHbe9mGIeMt1aoy2iFKwyy6VliZNuSQDQn30ZHlVrQ5rDLNVpglZaIDebLo5TJmd2KMmhAKQY//fUK9zjzjGQDsLshv3+6mAd+B56Y0VKvb+i6cIocHGDwvFPFSL7GCY4BNc3uXIVJFKDD DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=13be7.5e7d4f19.k2003; bh=E0subA+ZduYP+WgjG2MtJ/xZ7cAeCFzqrOvsIoY0FfY=; b=OKRG/WgfgglGmbaycxCAW77tyKNsKFxDcOLC3Vpnd8qHvXc0Z0MHxXAtHW60eKRiylRrxcXlAtwHySRwEguiCbSC4+W9vQjF2e8fXH/hUReBI2d+vFLf4bzGOUp/u3DDap3Fztma18Pk1V/CvNymHYo/aXnqZ9YYdJhN/9z5unZNnHhNP9UGUiEkdN9KxS6ju7x5fALzkl83mMrMyNXn1UVXGwOQSz8AJR7ijdEVpuT9CQXuGwNPvXZvBT+SE5y6 Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 27 Mar 2020 00:55:52 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2AD8F16A81E9; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: 26 Mar 2020 20:55:52 -0400 Message-Id: <20200327005553.2AD8F16A81E9@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: add@ietf.org Cc: Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com In-Reply-To: <15470670-015C-4C13-9B14-26D74FB87AD2@nbcuni.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] [EXTERNAL] DRDP: response to feed backs provided during the meeting X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:55:57 -0000 In article <15470670-015C-4C13-9B14-26D74FB87AD2@nbcuni.com> you write: >Isn’t the DNS itself a global repository of domains? Could something be signed and published in it? I think that has a bootstrap problem. You don't know where to look unless you know where to look. If it's at a well-known DNS name, we're back to the single point of failure. R's, John From nobody Thu Mar 26 18:06:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E32D3A0DB5 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:06:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=VzFaRkwm; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=aUmwUque Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ljoiZMdx-U9L for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA7D83A0DB0 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A99889; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:06:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=LMT9EGOyG1QiJK3CGkPWEiOvj62u 2Jb3R18QSbE112Q=; b=VzFaRkwmMumyGJf/8GxhtmEKtoxmITo9/nCybDlSHnPn eGlVvBObQ+Z4z0EMwOV40YzisOtx3sWrinccJgHJDV5TuAgf2eQpXNH9uUAqIdaX PLyVd4sks0IyQgOz+f0EoDkytYg0vqirBSpT6HIIjFOPSeWdGWVJoWGTHQo1+opX VRLUtkfk9hv5d1pBqC9WSz7mz2Fg4LjqJuaDJPmz+sIFaD6tvVB4oQ/TBkYjb5/r os4UeinylR/VGkk2EFASPmUC+ThwlooDBlZptC+lHfgmwc7vzpOGA+gdH5HdA1wS tLiH3DfLI5jexd7qK7rGOCj+q+K655KH7myZxVm0Qw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=LMT9EG OyG1QiJK3CGkPWEiOvj62u2Jb3R18QSbE112Q=; b=aUmwUquena9joxTxH/j7Qa Gr+q3QGwCujWl7ByxE0KRqlw2aZWG8cbRdWDmDEFpHB/+jj+n5M3Q3NK/4sxEzXK FLoiSMbYACLS1i2Ieg6UobtL9NLFalw0tuCloAHwRPq48t06Jy6lWk0JY6kbcY9l 2XlbEES9OatYsVT42DfgKD4uAi1YOlaO2LalkciKHebOZdoybBVc9Rnt5ZzHbEhe FH3v6ECuHKEWMnUva12JLg4KKtYma74iXdNIhV0jXsmvOtscOC2/gvyAKtY2/zfN X28Q5T4sX0mAcWwixuSs+l0s0x71ZnZa7u1V7nKXZnQcCBNUFfVXWbqBVrT0Rulw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrudehjedguddvlecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgr rhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenuc evlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 25DFEE00EF; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:06:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-1021-g152deaf-fmstable-20200319v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 12:06:09 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Patrick McManus" Cc: "ADD Mailing list" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:33 -0000 On Thu, Mar 26, 2020, at 06:00, Patrick McManus wrote: > I think this is a pretty strong summary and a useful contribution - > thanks!. I might add that their view may include the scope of their > recommendation. (e.g. I'm a general recursive, I'm for this split > horizon, I'm for this authoritative, etc...) and, if we were making > mission statements, emphasize that authentication is something they are > implicitly conveying during presentation (even if its the absence of > authentication). I agree about scope. Though the client might reach different conclusions about what of that scope they want to use. :) The authentication question seems like it might depend on context. If you think of an HTTP server that says "use this resolver when you talk to me if you like", then that authentication might be implicit. But Tommy's presentation relied on authentication via DNSSEC for some sort of delegation record. That seems like it might not be explicit. From nobody Fri Mar 27 02:56:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F9A3A0433 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 02:56:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZjHqr2Ikjrvt for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 02:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.guxx.net (nyx.guxx.net [85.10.208.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34C83A0415 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 02:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nyx.guxx.net (Postfix, from userid 107) id 687CC5F408DB; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:56:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [172.19.176.182] (p4FC214AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.194.20.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by nyx.guxx.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27E035F40370; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:56:47 +0100 (CET) From: "Ralf Weber" To: "Martin Thomson" Cc: "Vittorio Bertola" , add@ietf.org Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:56:45 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <9C6D7F1C-98DF-4159-B4B7-98DE156187E9@fl1ger.de> In-Reply-To: <08c407f3-e0bc-46c2-9864-c7d4c347811b@www.fastmail.com> References: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> <08c407f3-e0bc-46c2-9864-c7d4c347811b@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 09:56:52 -0000 On 27 Mar 2020, at 1:44, Martin Thomson wrote: > Yes, this is the right question to ask, and totally within scope. I > too am not entirely convinced in the value of the complexity trade-off > in the specific case you cited, but I also don't know that I really > understand how this works from a hollistic perspective either. I find > the idea that I might allow Google (for example) to point me at > 8.8.8.8 for the purposes of name resolutions I make within the context > of my interactions with Google of interest. Except that you have no idea when you interact with Google. When you go to a website these days (e.g nytimes.com - just tested this now, but most sites are the same or similar) you without knowing and without being warned (GDPR warning) already have interacted with Google. So that is why even for stuff that wants to interact with Google I want them to go to my resolver so that I can block it there. Now I understand that there are other scenarios where distributing traffic might better from a privacy perspective, but we should make sure that whatever we do we come up with something that allows different ways to solve this, which IMHO Tommys draft does. So long -Ralf —-- Ralf Weber From nobody Fri Mar 27 04:10:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8853F3A07C3 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 04:10:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wJuV3HTbwBnV for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 04:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDDBA3A07AB for ; 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Fri, 27 Mar 2020 12:10:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 12:10:27 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Martin Thomson , add@ietf.org Message-ID: <1900124394.3218.1585307427695@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <08c407f3-e0bc-46c2-9864-c7d4c347811b@www.fastmail.com> References: <93585501.473.1585121577118@appsuite-dev-gw1.open-xchange.com> <08c407f3-e0bc-46c2-9864-c7d4c347811b@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev0 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My principles for discovery X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:10:35 -0000 > Il 27/03/2020 01:44 Martin Thomson ha scritto: > > See, I think that this line of argumentation is firmly out of scope for this group. I think that it is fine to express your opinions about what policies a client might consider as valid, and to factor those things you identify into how those opinions are formed, but this group is setup specifically not to contemplate that. Finding ways to express how those opinions manifest within the scope of this group's charter is what we need to try to do. Which is awkward, but thank you for doing that here: I don't disagree, but the problem is that discovery mechanisms are a tool to implement deployment models, which shape their requirements. But deployment models have policy consequences, some intended and some not, which once understood lead to adding features and fixes to them, which in turn need to be supported by the discovery mechanism. So the logical order to proceed would be to imagine a deployment model, to discuss collectively its policy implications, to come to reasonable bottom-up agreement (or final disagreement) on possible mitigations, and then to design and implement a discovery mechanism that supports all that. But we cannot do that because we don't have a venue for policy discussions, and even if we had it, the discussion would take much longer than agreeing on technical specs, and could fail altogether. So, I agree that this is not the right venue for that, but I do think that some policy discussion now, even if hard, would save us much bigger arguments later, especially with people outside of this process. Also, we might think that we may solve the issue by designing such an open, general and extensible discovery mechanism that it can support each and every conceivable deployment model. However, that could just be wishful thinking, and it might also set the group for a very long technical odyssey before getting anywhere. > That's the careful balance this group has: we can't talk about policies because we know we don't all agree. But we really need to understand whether there is some motivation for doing the work that is at least plausible. > > This is likely a question for chairs, but if we want to avoid the policy discussions, maybe they would prefer to say that as long as there is sufficient interest then work might proceed rather than trying to avoid objections. Or at least avoiding objections on policy grounds, because there are objections that are in scope and derive from things outside of the contested policy questions. A "live and let live" principle could be good: different sub-groups could work on different discovery mechanisms that suit different deployment models, which will all be standardized provided that they are technically sound. However, I do see a problem: can you really tell technical objections from policy objections? People that don't like other people's deployment models might start to claim that their objection is technical and thus in scope. The first example I can think of: there are people that would like to just add a new option to DHCP and advertise their DoH/DoT resolver there, as they think that the level of security provided today by DHCP is sufficient; others think that this would be too insecure, and object to that mechanism on those grounds. Is that a technical or a policy objection? -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy