From nobody Fri Oct 2 10:28:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietf.org Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6753A11EC; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 10:28:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: glenn.deen@nbcuni.com, add@ietf.org, add-chairs@ietf.org, barryleiba@computer.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.18.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160165970415.12138.7571624097006230434@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 10:28:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Add] add - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 109 X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 17:28:25 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Glenn Deen, a Chair of the add working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Adaptive DNS Discovery Area Name: Internet Area Session Requester: Glenn Deen Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 160 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: mops Technology Overlap: dnsop dprive Key Participant Conflict: intarea ipsecme saag tls quic People who must be present: Barry Leiba Glenn Deen David C Lawrence Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Oct 2 10:36:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959903A116D for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 10:36:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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(unknown [20.44.98.139]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5A3713064674 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2020 03:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============2916824204843018820==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: add@ietf.org Message-Id: <20201004073307.5A3713064674@mailuser.nyi.internal> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 03:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Archived-At: Subject: [Add] Weekly github digest (ADD Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 07:51:08 -0000 --===============2916824204843018820== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events without label "editorial" Issues ------ * ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC1) 1 issues received 1 new comments: - #4 Requirements needed in Discovery of Associated Resolvers (section 3)= (1 by JoGSal) https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements/issues/4 [design]= =20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements * https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/wg-materials --===============2916824204843018820== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (ADD Activity Summary)

Sunday October 04, 2020

Events without label "editorial"

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ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC1)

1 issues received 1 new comments:

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--00000000000035a24105b1b20a84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glenn, I'm happy with the general principle of splitting into 2 or 3 areas and working on those in parallel. But I'm not entirely sure I agree with where you've drawn the distinction. (1) Low-complexity environments. =E2=80=93 this would include the case tha= t > started the =E2=80=9CMy single use case=E2=80=9D thread > > > > (2) High-complexity environments =E2=80=93 this would include the RFC1918 > situations, networks with more advanced technical controls, > networks/devices with applied policy controls. > I would see RFC1918-addressed forwarders as very much in the scope of "My single use case". In fact as Martin said: > This might need the full matrix of DoT/DoH, v4/v6, with/without a > forwarder, but this is fundamentally just a single use case. > As others have said, such non-upgradeable forwarders are so common that any "tell me how to contact your encrypted version" protocol will need to deal with them. Likewise, a consequence of selecting the network's recommended encrypted resolver is that network-applied policy controls may be in scope. So they are not solely found in "high-complexity environments". But I do agree that it is useful to separate out such more complex items as Enterprise, and the provision of useful information about each possible resolver, such that the client can make a more informed decision if it wishes to. Chris On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 20:57, Deen, Glenn wrote: > Disclaimer: I=E2=80=99ve discussed the following with my co-chair and ou= r AD for > a sanity check, but if in the end if you don=E2=80=99t like it please sen= d the hate > mail to me as David and Barry are both innocent. > > > > --- > > > > ADD State of Things Observations > > > > Wearing my ADD co-chair hat, I=E2=80=99ve been thinking about the discuss= ion had > during the Sept 10th [1] and Sept 15 [2] Interims, and the subsequent lis= t > thread =E2=80=9CMy single use case=E2=80=9D [3] and the current draft-bo= x-add-requirements > [4] and it seems that there may be emerging two classes of Discovery > situations that the group is discussing that are based on the complexity = of > the environment that the client is in. > > > > I=E2=80=99ll expand on what I mean by complexity father down in this not= e, but > for now the two classes are: > > > > (1) Low-complexity environments. =E2=80=93 this would include the case t= hat > started the =E2=80=9CMy single use case=E2=80=9D thread > > > > (2) High-complexity environments =E2=80=93 this would include the RFC1918 > situations, networks with more advanced technical controls, > networks/devices with applied policy controls. > > > > > > Complexity > > -------------- > > > > I call this differentiation Complexity because at the heart of the > discussions it seems that it is the number different factors which need t= o > be satisfied that emerges in the discussions and that these factors aren'= t > simply classified in to distinct buckets that can be individually satisfi= ed > without consideration of other factors in other buckets. > > > > Throughout various drafts, threads, and discussions the group has had a > variety of operational and technical factors raised from a variety of > situations. > > > > Some factors have been operating in RFC1918 networks with CPE devices tha= t > use stub-resolvers; Other factors have been concerns about network or > device configuration requirements set by secured networks or devices; Whi= le > other factors have considered the desire to be able to group associated > resolvers together either by being operated by the same org, or by having > the same policy set, or by same behavior set; Others have been how to > operate in captive portal environments; .... and the list goes on. > > > > This list can of course can contain complexities from the threat level of > the environment or the device itself that could be considered. > > > > The presence of such a wide variety of factors increases the complexity > that a discovery mechanism needs to operating in, and in turn the > complexity of the discovery mechanism itself. > > > > Complexity is not a fixed thing - it is a spectrum of levels from very > simple environments, to more complex environments such as the RFC1918/C= PE > situation, through to tightly managed situations, and even to very secure= d > networks/devices. > > > > > > Where we seem to be at > > --------------------------------- > > > > That has led to a bifurcation that is well captured when you take into > account the discussing in the "My single use case" thread, and the > different breakdown of situations listed in draft-box-add-requirements. > The group has members with interest in working of discovery in difference > levels of complexity. > > > > We also have a couple of deployed, but not necessarily > scalable, approaches being used today by Firefox, Chrome, Microsoft, and > Apple that currently are could be classified as simplistic versions of ho= w > you approach the discovery problem in the least-possible complex > environments. A good example of this is documented in > draft-rescorla-doh-cdisco [5]. > > > > Recognizing that the complexity is a spectrum ranging from low-complexity= , > to mid-tired, to high-complexity it occurs to me that a path ahead maybe = to > recognize this aspect and instead of fighting it - incorporate it into th= e > WG group's approach, and not to try to have one answer that works > everywhere. > > > > To that end I'd like to propose the following: > > > > (1) To the authors of Draft-box-add-requirements: > > > > Draft-box-add-requirements details different environments, but it does so > from a perspective of listing each environment and the requirement that i= s > then needed. Based on comments at the Sept 10th Interim, some > participants took it to a an attempt to create an aggregated list of > requirements that any ADD Discovery solution would need to satisfy, with = of > course the entirely reasonable reaction from many that such a list of MUS= T > requirements would be boiling the ocean and would potentially ignore that > the lower handing fruit of the very low complexity environments. I don= ' > think that it was the intent of the draft authors to create an > all-encompassing list of MUST requirements. > > > > To that end, I would like to suggest to the draft-add-box-requirements > authors (and anyone who'd like to help them) to update the draft with the > technical feedback they received from the Sept 10 Interim, and to attempt > to restructure the document and its requirements around the ideas of > complexity of the discovery environment, and the second idea that while t= he > document captures requirements that exist in a variety of increasingly > complex environments. These higher complex requirements don't all need to > be addressed in the output of ADD for ADD meet the needs of the > environments with the highest demand. > > > > The resulting new document would start with looking at low complexity > environments and work up to higher complexity environments, with the > requirements not being a set list of must-meet requirements, but instead = a > capturing for reference the spectrum of discovery situations that exist i= n > the deployment land scape, with a recognition that there may be discovery > methods which only work in the lower complexity ranges. It would also > attempt to document the environmental complexities as it identifies > requirements. > > > > (2) To the working group/other document authors > > > > If we view the landscape of discovery mechanisms as working within > particular ranges of complexity, can we begin to recognize that aspect i= n > the various draft approaches that have been put forward ? > > > > This would in practical terms end up with proposals that are specifically > targeted at different levels of complexity. A discovery mechanism proposa= l > would identify and declare the level of complexity and any specific > environmental complexities that it is intended to operate in as part of t= he > draft. > > > > I'm not suggesting that the ADD group try to produce distinct and unique > discovery approaches for every possible environment. Practically speakin= g > there seems to be a few - perhaps as little as 2 or 3 - specific levels o= f > complexity that group participants have brought up repeatedly over > time. If we accept that a single solution may not fit all situations, > then the group can perhaps organically focus its work around the simple > low-complexity case, and around 1 or 2 other specific complexities. > After all the output of ADD is entirely dependent on the group's > participants coming together to work on the aspects that they rate as > important to put their effort into. > > > > Of course it would be nice if there was some commonality in how things > work, and hopefully that is something that can come about by having the > work commonly done in the same group, but it seems that recognizing that > there are different levels of complexity that need solutions can be an > important step. > > > > (3) Form tiger/design teams to work on this > > > > There=E2=80=99s already a number of good proposals that cover discovery f= rom a > couple of different approaches, and we=E2=80=99ve heard from many of them= in WG > sessions. With those ideas as seeds, and with the discussions the group > has had now would be a good point to create design teams to work together > and come back with proposals for the different complexity situations. > For a start I would propose a group that will focus on the low-complexit= y > environment and second group that would focus on the RFC1918/CPE Stub > resolver environment. If there is a third one it likely would be > set-policy/enterprise discovery, which could over a broad variety of > environments beyond enterprise. > > > > > > It's up to the ADD group members > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > In the end the ADD group will go in the direction the group participants > want it to go in. So please share your thoughts on the above approaches > to the ADD mailing list. Is this a workable approach? > > > > > > Regards > > Glenn Deen, ADD co-chair > > > > > > > > ---- > > References: > > > > [1] > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-add-01-202009101300= / > > [2] > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-add-02-202009151300= / > > [3] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/add/IiYpAQ0ujdp0mlUzi1YB2cYYMT8= / > > [4] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-box-add-requirements/ > > [5] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rescorla-doh-cdisco/ > > > > > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > --00000000000035a24105b1b20a84 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Glenn,

I'm happy with th= e general principle of splitting into 2 or 3 areas and working on those in = parallel.

But I'm not entirely sure I agree wi= th where you've drawn the distinction.

(1= ) Low-complexity environments.=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=93 this would include the = case that started the =E2=80=9CMy single use case=E2=80=9D thread

=C2=A0

(2) High-complexity environments =E2=80=93 this would include the RFC1918=20 situations,=C2=A0=C2=A0networks with more advanced technical controls,=20 networks/devices with applied policy controls.


I would see RFC1918-addressed forwarders as very = much in the scope of "My single use case".

In fact as Martin said:
This might need the full matrix of DoT/DoH, v4/v6, with/without a forwarder= , but this is fundamentally just a single use case.
=

As others have said, such non-upgradeable forwarders ar= e so common that any "tell me how to contact your encrypted version&qu= ot; protocol will need to deal with them.

Likewise= , a consequence of selecting the network's recommended encrypted resolv= er is that network-applied policy controls may be in scope. So they are not= solely found in "high-complexity environments".

But I do agree that it is useful to separate out such more complex= items as Enterprise, and the provision of useful information about each po= ssible resolver, such that the client can make a more informed decision if = it wishes to.

Chris


On= Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 20:57, Deen, Glenn <Glenn_Deen=3D40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Disclaimer:=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ve discussed the followi= ng with my co-chair and our AD for a sanity check, but if in the end if you= don=E2=80=99t like it please send the hate mail to me as David and Barry are both innocent.

=C2=A0

---

=C2=A0

ADD State of Things Observations

=C2=A0

Wearing my ADD co-chair hat, I=E2=80=99ve been think= ing about the discussion had during the Sept 10th [1] and Sept 15 [2] Inter= ims, and the subsequent list thread =E2=80=9CMy single use case=E2=80=9D [3]=C2=A0=C2=A0and the current draft-box-add-requirements [4] and it seems= that there may be emerging two classes of Discovery situations that the gr= oup is discussing that are based on the complexity of the environment that = the client is in.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0I=E2=80=99ll expand on what I mean by complexi= ty father down in this note, but for now the two classes are:=

=C2=A0

(1) Low-complexity environments.=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80= =93 this would include the case that started the =E2=80=9CMy single use cas= e=E2=80=9D thread

=C2=A0

(2) High-complexity environments =E2=80=93 this woul= d include the RFC1918 situations,=C2=A0=C2=A0networks with more advanced te= chnical controls, networks/devices with applied policy controls.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Complexity

--------------

=C2=A0

I call this differentiation Complexity because at th= e heart of the discussions it seems that it is the number different factors= which need to be satisfied that emerges in the discussions and that these factors aren't simply classified in to dist= inct buckets that can be individually satisfied without consideration of ot= her factors in other buckets.

=C2=A0

Throughout=C2=A0various drafts, threads, and discuss= ions the group has had a variety of operational and technical factors raise= d from a variety of situations.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Some factors have been operating in RFC1918 networks= with CPE devices that use stub-resolvers;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Other fac= tors have been concerns about network or device configuration requirements set by secured networks or devices; While other factors have considered th= e desire to be able to group associated resolvers together either by being = operated by the same org, or by having the same policy set, or by same beha= vior set; Others have been how to operate in captive portal environments; .... and the list goes on.=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

This list can of course can contain complexities fro= m the threat level of the environment or the device itself that could be co= nsidered.

=C2=A0

The presence of such a wide variety of factors incre= ases the complexity that a discovery mechanism needs to operating in, and i= n turn the complexity of the discovery mechanism itself.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Complexity is not a fixed thing - it is a spectrum o= f levels from very simple environments, to=C2=A0=C2=A0more complex environm= ents such as the=C2=A0=C2=A0RFC1918/CPE situation, through to tightly managed situations, and even to very secured networks/devices.=C2=A0=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Where we seem to be at

---------------------------------

=C2=A0

That has led to a bifurcation that is well captured = when you take into account the discussing in the "My single use case&q= uot; thread, and the different breakdown of situations listed in draft-box-add-requirements.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The group has membe= rs with interest in working of discovery in difference levels of complexity= .

=C2=A0

We also have a couple of deployed, but not necessari= ly scalable,=C2=A0=C2=A0approaches being used today by Firefox, Chrome, Mic= rosoft, and Apple that currently are could be classified as simplistic versions of how you approach the discovery problem in the le= ast-possible complex environments.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0A good example of= this is documented in draft-rescorla-doh-cdisco [5].=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Recognizing that the complexity is a spectrum rangin= g from low-complexity, to mid-tired, to high-complexity it occurs to me tha= t a path ahead maybe to recognize this aspect and instead of fighting it - incorporate it into the WG group's approa= ch, and not to try to have one answer that works everywhere.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

To that end I'd like to propose the following:

=C2=A0

(1) To the authors of Draft-box-add-requirements:=C2= =A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Draft-box-add-requirements details different environ= ments, but it does so from a perspective of listing each environment and th= e requirement that is then needed.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Based on comments at the Sept 10th Interim, some participants took it to a an attem= pt to create an aggregated list of requirements that any ADD Discovery solu= tion would need to satisfy, with of course the entirely reasonable reaction= from many that such a list of MUST requirements would be boiling the ocean and would potentially ignore that = the lower handing fruit of the very low complexity environments.=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I don' think that it was the intent of the draft authors= to create an all-encompassing list of MUST requirements.=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0

To that end, I would like to suggest to the draft-ad= d-box-requirements authors (and anyone who'd like to help them) to upda= te the draft with the technical feedback they received from the Sept 10 Interim, and to attempt to restructure the document and i= ts requirements around the ideas of complexity of the discovery environment= , and the second idea that while the document captures requirements that ex= ist in a variety of increasingly complex environments. These higher complex requirements don't all need= to be addressed in the output of ADD for ADD meet the needs of the environ= ments with the highest demand.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The resulting new document would start with looking = at low complexity environments and work up to higher complexity environment= s, with the requirements not being a set list of must-meet requirements, but instead a capturing for reference the spect= rum of discovery situations that exist in the deployment land scape, with a= recognition that there may be discovery methods which only work in the low= er complexity ranges.=C2=A0=C2=A0It would also attempt to document the environmental complexities as it identifies r= equirements.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(2) To the working group/other document authors

=C2=A0

If we view the landscape of discovery mechanisms as = working within particular ranges of complexity,=C2=A0=C2=A0can we begin to = recognize that aspect in the various draft approaches that have been put forward ?

=C2=A0

This would in practical terms end up with proposals = that are specifically targeted at different levels of complexity. A discove= ry mechanism proposal would identify and declare the level of complexity and any specific environmental complexities that i= t is intended to operate in as part of the draft.

=C2=A0

I'm not suggesting that the ADD group try to pro= duce distinct and unique discovery approaches for every possible environmen= t.=C2=A0=C2=A0Practically speaking there seems to be a few - perhaps as little as 2 or 3 - specific levels of complexity that group par= ticipants have brought up repeatedly over time.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0If w= e accept that a single solution may not fit all situations, then the group = can perhaps organically focus its work around the=C2=A0=C2=A0simple low-complexity case,=C2=A0=C2=A0and around 1 or 2 other specific complexit= ies.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 After all the output of ADD is entirely depend= ent on the group's participants coming together to work on the aspects = that they rate as important to put their effort into.<= /p>

=C2=A0

Of course it would be nice if there was some commona= lity in how things work, and hopefully that is something that can come abou= t by having the work commonly done in the same group, but it seems that recognizing that there are different levels of co= mplexity that need solutions can be an important step.=

=C2=A0

(3) Form tiger/design teams to work on this

=C2=A0

There=E2=80=99s already a number of good proposals t= hat cover discovery from a couple of different approaches, and we=E2=80=99v= e heard from many of them in WG sessions.=C2=A0=C2=A0 With those ideas as seeds, and with the discussions the group has had now would be a good poin= t to create design teams to work together and come back with proposals for = the different complexity situations.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0For a start I would = propose a group that will focus on the low-complexity environment and second group that would focus on the RFC1918/CPE Stub reso= lver environment.=C2=A0 If there is a third one it likely would be set-poli= cy/enterprise discovery, which could over a broad variety of environments b= eyond enterprise.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It's up to the ADD group members

--------------------------------------------<= u>

=C2=A0

In the end the ADD group will go in the direction th= e group participants want it to go in.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So please share your tho= ughts on the above approaches to the ADD mailing list. Is this a workable approach?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards

Glenn=C2=A0=C2=A0Deen, ADD co-chair

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

----

References:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[1]=C2=A0https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-add-01-202009101300/

[2]=C2=A0https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-add-02-202009151300/

[3]=C2=A0https://mailarchive.= ietf.org/arch/msg/add/IiYpAQ0ujdp0mlUzi1YB2cYYMT8/=

[4]=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-box-add-requirements/

[5]=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-rescorla-doh-cdisco/

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements (+3/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC1) 3 issues created: - Section 5: Clarification (by JoGSal) https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements/issues/30=20 - Section 3.2: Add to Requirements (by JoGSal) https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements/issues/29=20 - Section 3.2: Add to listed benefits (by JoGSal) https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements/issues/28=20 1 issues received 1 new comments: - #8 Define what is meant by =E2=80=9Cauthenticated=E2=80=9D (1 by JoGSal) https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements/issues/8 [design]= =20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements * https://github.com/ietf-wg-add/wg-materials --===============0112346277910280884== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (ADD Activity Summary)

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ietf-wg-add/draft-add-requirements (+3/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC1)

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--===============0112346277910280884==-- From nobody Wed Oct 21 17:14:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C693A0CD5 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 17:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.244 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.244 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=article19.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78bsK8La3zkp for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 17:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DF2A3A0CC4 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 17:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1kVOFX-0007BM-Vp for add@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:14:37 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=article19.org; s=mail; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:To:From:References:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=wuQk00Fn57gyc8bbVs+hkl+2iaeKit1vEWQKm2oLwio=; b=RGP1po6wUu/M4M99MhTsMOb3j MUToLos6cRob327b/TpIEU1r2Tfh7yaP1GnNxtzcnqUAJGbVCZ9eW5zsn06TWsohgsXZkNLbOWcK4 EnlnomCFuU4x3yd3QPbyHULGw0/dMBnC9dzAFXqkUiitZOr3uS3QZzYvTBk9yWYv8MpOs=; References: <22A74993-38FD-4A59-BFAF-4917ABEFC2CB@comcast.com> From: Joey S Autocrypt: addr=joeysalazar@article19.org; keydata= mDMEXZTRnBYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAR3jTF7OBMWWAdkeA/J2YINHL+F73joqExbmXuMyaSbi0 IkpvZXkgUyA8am9leXNhbGF6YXJAYXJ0aWNsZTE5Lm9yZz6IlgQTFggAPhYhBG6cleVb7ZQT XQhV1QpAQTYN8BqRBQJdlNGcAhsDBQkJZgGABQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJ EApAQTYN8BqRUG4BAJlToAdbX8ybZY/YEE6Cx9MWMw5UAc3PNxtsqBjxT+wwAQDwnkiVMvS5 919yL+Hql44fdZSA2Uu75Xlc4Zz57S5fB7g4BF2U0ZwSCisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0B0/M0aJaYC uThNCIaFiPrneHwKTCA91gjgthVzKNg6EwMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBG6cleVb7ZQTXQhV1QpA QTYN8BqRBQJdlNGcAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEApAQTYN8BqROEYA/3LPYUyagV/7uKHN62bBa6UW dfqgIn6ie7XOw+jPy1tgAP40i23dbN7AAnZ5CljjLbRsbVF6YlDe1nZHcAo3/xZiCg== To: add@ietf.org Message-ID: <868d5b2c-141a-4b44-cfa3-beef1840e624@article19.org> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 18:14:28 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qHCfOA7wPPewcsC5TK0z6OH31OcAmQDj6" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: c4d37daad8bbee4d9ce4f192a2f1dac2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] ADD State of Things Observations X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 00:14:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qHCfOA7wPPewcsC5TK0z6OH31OcAmQDj6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="sbYQYIdVoPA2BOt0PMsXFnDRvfdnp9iKK" --sbYQYIdVoPA2BOt0PMsXFnDRvfdnp9iKK Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
do people feel the general observations around complexity and path proposed to be reasonable?
Yes. Adding to what Andrew said, defining pending input in the narrative and requirements sections of the draft will be helpful in further clearing the division line in complexity first and later correlating that to the deployment scale of specific scenarios if/when needed.

This could also help in avoiding fragmenting the scope of the 2-3 groups too much so we don't go back to a need for consolidation like we had during the previous IETF meeting.
--
Joey
On 10/15/2020 2:06 PM, Andrew Campling= wrote:

Glenn=

The approach you=E2=80=99ve suggested seems like a reasonable way= forward, especially if the split is along the lines suggested by Chris.=C2=A0 Ideally we=E2=80=99d first flesh ou= t the user requirements a little more and then have the WG adopt the document so that there is an agreed record of the use cases and associated requirements that we=E2=80=99re aiming to solv= e.=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Andre= w =C2=A0

=C2= =A0

From: Deen, Glenn <Glenn_Deen@comcast.com&g= t;
Sent: 15 October 2020 16:16
To: ADD Mailing list <add@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Add] ADD State of Things Observations

=C2=A0

Chris,

=C2=A0

Thanks for the comment.

=C2=A0

I meant the proposed complexity grouping as starting points, but if it=E2=80=99s possible to merge RFC1918/CPE with a le= ss complex case that=E2=80=99s very nice.=C2=A0 There do r= emain other complex environments that won=E2=80=99t be as easy.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Ultimately such lines are drawn are drawn by =C2=A0auth= ors and the WG group so we choose to draw as appropriate.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

Regardless of where the lines are drawn, for now do people feel the general observations around complexity and path proposed to be reasonable?

=C2=A0

Glenn=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:= Chris Box (BT) <chris.box.ietf@gmail.com= >
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 2:12 AM
To: Deen, Glenn
Cc: ADD Mailing list
Subject: Re: [Add] ADD State of Things Observations

=C2=A0

Glenn,

=C2=A0

I'm happy wit= h the general principle of splitting into 2 or 3 areas and working on those in parallel.

=C2=A0

But I'm not entirely sure I agree with where you've drawn the distinction.

=C2=A0

(1) Low-complexity environments.=C2=A0= =C2=A0=E2=80=93 this would include the case that started the =E2=80= =9CMy single use case=E2=80=9D thread

=C2=A0

(2) High-complexity environments =E2= =80=93 this would include the RFC1918 situations,=C2=A0=C2=A0networks with more advanced = technical controls, networks/devices with applied policy controls.

=C2=A0

I would see RFC1918-addressed forwarders as very much in the scope of "My single use case".

=C2=A0

In fact as Martin said:

This might need the full matrix of DoT/DoH, v4/v6, with/without a forwarder, but this is fundamentally just a single use case.

=C2=A0

As others hav= e said, such non-upgradeable forwarders are so common that any "tell me how to contact your encrypted version" protocol will need to deal with them.

=C2=A0

Likewise, a consequence of selecting the network's recommended encrypted resolver is that network-applied policy controls may be in scope. So they are not solely found in "high-complexity environments".

=C2=A0

But I do agre= e that it is useful to separate out such more complex items as Enterprise, and the provision of useful information about each possible resolver, such that the client can make a more informed decision if it wishes to.

=C2=A0

Chris

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0



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Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. add Session 1 (1:00 requested) Monday, 16 November 2020, Session II 1430-1530 Room Name: Room 2 size: 502 --------------------------------------------- add Session 2 (2:00 requested) Friday, 20 November 2020, Session I 1200-1400 Room Name: Room 2 size: 502 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/sessions/add.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Adaptive DNS Discovery Area Name: Internet Area Session Requester: Glenn Deen Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 160 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: mops Technology Overlap: dnsop dprive Key Participant Conflict: intarea ipsecme saag tls quic Leave at least one free day in between the two sessions People who must be present: Barry Leiba Glenn Deen David C. Lawrence Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Oct 27 11:45:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: add@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15AE63A1472 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 11:45:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com header.b=ahN5+z8a; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=comcastcorp.onmicrosoft.com header.b=FEngJmHQ 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Glenn. Yes, that draft deadline is extremely close. I noticed you'd shown the Bangkok timezone as IST, and times like 9pm as 09:00. So in the spirit of clarity here's a revised & expanded list: *Session 1: Monday, November 16 2020 (UTC+7)* Time in different zones: - ICT: 14:30-15:30 (UTC+7) - IST: 13:00-14:00 (UTC+5.5) - CET: 08:30-09:30 (UTC+1) - UTC: 07:30-08:30 (UTC+0) - EST: 02:30-03:30 (UTC-5) - PST: Sunday 23:30-00:30 (UTC-8) *Session 2: Friday, November 20, 2020 (UTC+7)* Time in different zones: - ICT: 12:00-14:00 (UTC+7) - IST: 10:30-12:30 (UTC+5.5) - CET: 06:00-08:00 (UTC+1) - UTC: 05:00-07:00 (UTC+0) - EST: 00:00-02:00 (UTC-5) - PST: Thursday 21:00-23:00 (UTC-8) Hopefully that's useful to people. Chris On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 at 18:45, Deen, Glenn wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > > > Here=E2=80=99s the important cut-off dates and meeting slots for ADD @ IE= TF109: > > > > *Draft Cut-Off* > > > > Monday November 2 - aka next Monday. So you have less than a week to > get those drafts in! > > > > *IETF 109 Sessions:* > > *Session 1: Monday, November 16 2020 (UTC+7)* > > Time in different zones: > > - IST: 14:30-15:30 (UTC+7) > - UTC: 07:30-08:30 (UTC+0) > - EST: 02:30-03:30 (UTC-5) > - PST: 11:30-00:30 (UTC-8) *Note: This is Sunday November 15 in PST* > > *Session 2: Friday, November 20, 2020 (UTC+7)* > > Time in different zones: > > - IST: 12:00-14:00 (UTC+7) > - UTC: 05:00-07:00 (UTC+0) > - EST: 00:00-02:00 (UTC-5) *Note: This is Midnight Thursday November > 19 in EST* > - PST: 09:00-11:00 (UTC-8) *Note: This is Thursday November 19 in PST* > > > > Thanks > > Glenn Deen > > > > > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > --0000000000009cbf0905b2bbd632 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Glenn. Yes, that draft deadline is extremely c= lose.

I noticed you'd shown the Bangkok timezo= ne as IST, and times like 9pm as 09:00.
So in the spirit of clari= ty here's a revised & expanded list:

Session 1: Monday, November 16 2020 (UTC+7)

Time in different zones:

  • ICT: 14:30-15:30 (UTC+7)
  • IST:=C2=A0 13:00-14:00 (UTC+5.5)
    • CET: 08:30-09= :30 (UTC+1)
  • UTC: 07:30-08:30 (UTC+0)
  • EST: 02:30-03:3= 0 (UTC-5)
  • PST: Sunday 23:= 30-00:30 (UTC-8)

Session 2: Friday, November 20, 2020 (UTC+7)<= /b>

Time in different zones:

  • ICT: 12:00-14:00 (UTC+7)
  • IST:=C2=A0 10:30-12:30 (UTC+5.5)
    • CET: 06:00-08= :00 (UTC+1)
  • UTC: 05:00-07:00 (UTC+0)
  • EST: 00:00-02:0= 0 (UTC-5)
  • PST: Thursday 2= 1:00-23:00 (UTC-8)

Hopefully that's useful to people.
Chris

On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 at 18:45, Deen, Glenn <Glenn_Deen=3D40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wr= ote:

Hi Everyone,

=C2=A0

Here=E2=80=99s the important cut-off dates and meeting slots for ADD @ IET= F109:

=C2=A0

Draft Cut-Off

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Monday November 2 - aka next Monday. So you have less than a = week to get those drafts in!

=C2=A0

IETF 109 Sessions:

Session 1: Monday, November 16 2020 (UTC+7)

Time in different zones:

  • IST: 14:30-15:3= 0 (UTC+7)
  • UTC: 07:30-08:3= 0 (UTC+0)
  • EST: 02:30-03:3= 0 (UTC-5)
  • PST: 11:30-00:3= 0 (UTC-8)=C2=A0Note: This is Sunday November 15 in PST=

Session 2: Friday, November 20, 2020 (UTC+7)<= u>

Time in different zones:

  • IST: 12:00-14:0= 0 (UTC+7)
  • UTC: 05:00-07:0= 0 (UTC+0)
  • EST: 00:00-02:0= 0 (UTC-5)=C2=A0Note: This is Midnight Thursday November 19 in EST=
  • PST: 09:00-11:0= 0 (UTC-8)=C2=A0Note: This is Thursday November 19 in PST

=C2=A0

Thanks

Glenn Deen

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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