From nobody Mon Mar 1 17:23:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658DE3A096C; Mon, 1 Mar 2021 17:23:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Executive Director To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.26.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <161464823084.23628.13098914687235768193@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 17:23:51 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] Revised IETF sponsorship program X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 01:23:51 -0000 The IETF Administration LLC has published a blog post explaining our revised IETF sponsorship program: https://www.ietf.org/blog/revised-ietf-sponsorship-program/ Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or feedback. -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Mar 3 14:11:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB623A1C18; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 14:11:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CDBA282753; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 22:25:34 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: "Livingood, Jason" , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> <7E0333D9-7854-4937-8DDC-AD7EE9471613@cable.comcast.com> Message-ID: <0dd3a63d-844c-885b-7767-e0ec1559627f@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 19:25:14 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7E0333D9-7854-4937-8DDC-AD7EE9471613@cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 22:25:48 -0000 Hi, Jason, Thanks a lot for your response! In-line.... On 3/3/21 19:16, Livingood, Jason wrote: > Hi Fernando - I am not aware of any data to suggest that it has even > been an issue. But please also bear in mind that the OFAC compliance > need flows down from the Internet Society, since the IETF LLC is > within the Internet Society corporate umbrella. We're of course > always happy to consult with counsel if needed, but it would help to > know if you have any data here. I don't have data. But if a possible outcome is that people could be prevented from participating in meetings, that would be a discriminatory policy, and as such, unacceptable -- regardless of how many people (if any) may have been affected so far. So yes, I still think an authoritative answer is needed here. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Mar 3 14:26:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F783A1C26 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 14:26:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset=us-ascii Fernando (moved to admin-discuss) I was in the process of replying to your last direct email to me about = this but let me reply publicly now: > On 4/03/2021, at 10:32 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 > Folks, >=20 > While studying the topic of diversity and inclusiveness in the IETF, = the question arouse about what are the implications of the IETF LLC = being registered in the USA. >=20 > In particular, I'm concerned about the possible implications for = participants from USA-sanctioned countries or organizations. >=20 > I asked a few people here and there, and was referred to this = document: = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_LLC_OFAC_Compliance_Policy_2020-= 10-06.pdf >=20 > That document contains text such as: >=20 > ---- cut here ---- > Meeting Registrations > The current automated meeting registration system can continue, but at = regular intervals, and no later than 30 days before the meeting begins, = the list of registered participants and financial institutions = associated with payment of registration fees must be checked (both for = individual names and country of domicile and residence). > ---- cut here ---- >=20 > and >=20 > ---- cut here ---- > Action > The IETF Executive Director will work with IETF LLC counsel to = determine what action to take in each individual case. This may include = not pursuing the contractual relationship, revoking the meeting = registration, cancelling any existing contract or other action. > ---- cut here ---- >=20 >=20 > I'm certainly not a lawyer, and hence I'd like an authoritative and = clear explanation about what are the possible outcomes of this "OFAC = Compliance Policy". >=20 > For example, could it result in participants from Cuba, Iran, Myanmar, = North Korea, Sudan or Syria being rejected their registration, and hence = being prevented to participate in IETF meetings? >=20 > If that were the case, I'm sure that we'd all agree that that would be = inappropriate, discriminatory, oppressive, and ultimately unacceptable. = I hope that that's not even a possibility. >=20 > Could anyone please clarify this? There are multiple reasons why someone might be prevented from = participating in person in an IETF meeting by government policy. One = is a governmental sanctions policy and another is local border control, = generally through the visa process. The US government indeed has a sanctions policy, referred to as OFAC, = but you may not be aware that many other governments also have one. For = example, the EU has such a policy: = https://eeas.europa.eu/topics/sanctions-policy_en?page=3D1 You may also not be aware of just how widespread the impact of sanctions = policies are and the nature of direct and indirect impact. Looking at = the direct impact, every US company and individual including the LLC is = covered. For example, every online service such as Twitter, GitHub, = every US based airline, every US drug company and so on. The much = broader impact is indirect - a company outside of the US that does = business with sanctioned people/companies/countries can in turn be = subject to sanctions. =20 For border control, every country in the world operates a visa scheme = that restricts who can enter based on their country of residence, = occupation etc. When we consider a specific country for a meeting that = is one of the things we look at, and while we aim for the restrictions = to be as light as possible, there will always be some people who might = be affected.=20 So, to answer your question, yes we may end up in a situation where we = deny access to an in-person meeting to someone from an OFAC sanctioned = country - it depends on the specific person and the circumstances around = that. We may even need to deny them remote participation. There are = options available to us, such as applying for a license or pursuing a = more general exemption as a standards setting organisation, but none of = those can be guaranteed.=20 No matter how much we might wish it to be different, we are constrained = by two inescapable facts: 1. It is simply not possible to locate a company anywhere in the world = where it does not need to consider the impact of sanctions. =20 2. It is simply not possible to find any location on the planet where = everyone is free to travel to. Jay >=20 > P.S.: Besides sanctions on countries such as the above, there also = seems to be a whole list of people and organizations that are = sanctioned/banned: = https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/specially-desi= gnated-nationals-and-blocked-persons-list-sdn-human-readable-lists >=20 > Thanks, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_CFC3AB08-75A5-463C-8D40-3C8FC29A9733 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Fernando

(moved to admin-discuss)

I was in the process of replying to = your last direct email to me about this but let me reply publicly = now:

On 4/03/2021, at 10:32 AM, Fernando Gont = <fernando@gont.com.ar> wrote:

Folks,

While studying the topic = of diversity and inclusiveness in the IETF, the question arouse about = what are the implications of the IETF LLC being registered in the = USA.

In particular, I'm concerned about the = possible implications for participants from USA-sanctioned countries or = organizations.

I asked a few people here = and there, and was referred to this document: https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_LLC_OFAC_Compliance_P= olicy_2020-10-06.pdf

That document = contains text such as:

---- cut here = ----
Meeting Registrations
The current = automated meeting registration system can continue, but at regular = intervals, and no later than 30 days before the meeting begins, the list = of registered participants and financial institutions associated with = payment of registration fees must be checked (both for individual names = and country of domicile and residence).
---- cut here = ----

and

---- = cut here ----
Action
The IETF Executive = Director will work with IETF LLC counsel to determine what action to = take in each individual case. This may include not pursuing the = contractual relationship, revoking the meeting registration, cancelling = any existing contract or other action.
---- cut here = ----


I'm certainly not a = lawyer, and hence I'd like an authoritative and clear explanation about = what are the possible outcomes of this "OFAC Compliance Policy".

For example, could it result in participants = from Cuba, Iran, Myanmar, North Korea, Sudan or Syria being rejected = their registration, and hence being prevented to participate in IETF = meetings?

If that were the case, I'm sure = that we'd all agree that that would be inappropriate, discriminatory, = oppressive, and ultimately unacceptable. I hope that that's not even a = possibility.

Could anyone please clarify = this?

There are multiple reasons why someone might be = prevented from participating in person in an IETF meeting by government = policy.   One is a governmental sanctions policy and another is = local border control, generally through the visa process.

The US government indeed has a sanctions policy, = referred to as OFAC, but you may not be aware that many other = governments also have one.  For example, the EU has such a policy: = https://eeas.europa.eu/topics/sanctions-policy_en?page=3D1<= /div>

You may also not be aware of just = how widespread the impact of sanctions policies are and the nature of = direct and indirect impact.  Looking at the direct impact, every US = company and individual including the LLC is covered.  For example, = every online service such as Twitter, GitHub, every US based airline, = every US drug company and so on.   The much broader impact is = indirect - a company outside of the US that does business with = sanctioned people/companies/countries can in turn be subject to = sanctions.  

For border = control, every country in the world operates a visa scheme that = restricts who can enter based on their country of residence, occupation = etc.   When we consider a specific country for a meeting that is = one of the things we look at, and while we aim for the restrictions to = be as light as possible, there will always be some people who might be = affected. 

So, to answer your = question, yes we may end up in a situation where we deny access to an = in-person meeting to someone from an OFAC sanctioned country - it = depends on the specific person and the circumstances around that. =  We may even need to deny them remote participation.  There = are options available to us, such as applying for a license or pursuing = a more general exemption as a standards setting organisation, but none = of those can be guaranteed. 

No = matter how much we might wish it to be different, we are constrained by = two inescapable facts:

1. =  It is simply not possible to locate a company anywhere in the = world where it does not need to consider the impact of sanctions. =  
2.  It is simply not possible to find any = location on the planet where everyone is free to travel = to.

Jay


P.S.: Besides sanctions on countries such as = the above, there also seems to be a whole list of people and = organizations that are sanctioned/banned: https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/spe= cially-designated-nationals-and-blocked-persons-list-sdn-human-readable-li= sts

Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
e-mail: = fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 = 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_CFC3AB08-75A5-463C-8D40-3C8FC29A9733-- From nobody Wed Mar 3 16:15:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00263A0B53; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:15:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qnWU4liu8goh; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CD063A0AD6; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:3d2a:476a:3ba9:ea99] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:3d2a:476a:3ba9:ea99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 79C202807F0; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 00:15:16 +0000 (UTC) To: Jay Daley , Fernando Gont Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, "'ietf@ietf.org'" References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> <976AFF7C-4DDC-4EF5-874C-AA7526A00A2C@ietf.org> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <4685ae0b-0ce9-0bc6-e50f-9f280af543be@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:15:03 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <976AFF7C-4DDC-4EF5-874C-AA7526A00A2C@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:15:31 -0000 Hello, Jay, Thanks for your response! In-line.... On 3/3/21 20:42, Jay Daley wrote: [...] > > You may also not be aware of just how widespread the impact of > sanctions policies are and the nature of direct and indirect impact. Not sure why you'd think so.... > Looking at the direct impact, every US company and individual > including the LLC is covered. For example, every online service such > as Twitter, GitHub, every US based airline, every US drug company and > so on. The much broader impact is indirect - a company outside of > the US that does business with sanctioned people/companies/countries > can in turn be subject to sanctions. FWIW, I find this *very* oppressive. > So, to answer your question, yes we may end up in a situation where > we deny access to an in-person meeting to someone from an OFAC > sanctioned country - it depends on the specific person and the > circumstances around that. We may even need to deny them remote > participation. There are options available to us, such as applying > for a license or pursuing a more general exemption as a standards > setting organisation, but none of those can be guaranteed. Is the issue associated with the economic transaction involved to pay the meeting fee? Or actually with participation (regardless of whether a fee is being paid or not)? Put another way: would a fee waiver guarantee f2f/online meeting participation of individuals from USA-sanctioned countries, as far as the IETF LLC is concerned? (of course, visas and others are not up to the IETF). And if such participation is not guaranteed, why would mailing-list participation be any different in this respect? Or should one also expect that participants from USA-sanctioned countries could also be banned from employing the IETF mailing-lists? > No matter how much we might wish it to be different, we are > constrained by two inescapable facts: > > 1. It is simply not possible to locate a company anywhere in the > world where it does not need to consider the impact of sanctions. 2. > It is simply not possible to find any location on the planet where > everyone is free to travel to. I haven't done such an assessment myself to be able to tell if things could be any different.. That said, in this particular case the sanctions would seem to affect even on-line participation (aside from travel/visa issues). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Mar 3 17:31:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561503A0650 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 17:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id su74eotavqOy for ; 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Thu, 4 Mar 2021 02:37:39 +0000 (UTC) To: "Livingood, Jason" , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> <976AFF7C-4DDC-4EF5-874C-AA7526A00A2C@ietf.org> <4685ae0b-0ce9-0bc6-e50f-9f280af543be@si6networks.com> <294D03DE-2807-466D-8C83-05AAF9F0D137@cable.comcast.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <0c12a905-5fce-13fc-557a-fb60f5f17e43@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 23:30:15 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <294D03DE-2807-466D-8C83-05AAF9F0D137@cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 02:37:48 -0000 On 3/3/21 22:31, Livingood, Jason wrote: > On 3/3/21, 7:16 PM, "admin-discuss on behalf of Fernando Gont" wrote: > > >> Looking at the direct impact, every US company and individual > >> including the LLC is covered. For example, every online service such > >> as Twitter, GitHub, every US based airline, every US drug company and > >> so on. > > > FWIW, I find this *very* oppressive. > > [JL] Are you available to join the next LLC board call on 11 March at 20:00 UTC? I'm almost sure I can join. > > Is the issue associated with the economic transaction involved to pay > the meeting fee? Or actually with participation (regardless of whether > a fee is being paid or not)? > > > That said, in this particular case the sanctions would seem to affect > even on-line participation (aside from travel/visa issues). > > [JL] None of us are lawyers or specialists in OFAC compliance -- we're getting into legal territory that would best be answered by counsel at the next LLC meeting, if you could join us at that time. I have added it to our agenda. Details and Webex link at https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/meeting-info/. Is the meeting open? -- I ask because I guess somebody else with more knowledge than myself might also be able to join, and ask better questions, or contribute better than myself. As noted, I'm sure I'll be able to join. e.g., RIRs thend to deal with many of these countries: RIPE wiht IRan, LACNIC with Cuba.... Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Mar 3 18:46:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 156593A0BFD for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:46:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRWei0c-wYEc for ; 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Thu, 4 Mar 2021 02:46:25 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Fernando Gont , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries Thread-Index: AQHXEHTlGp0JphuKhU2nDnBSZCYO0apy7NKAgAAJHID//8FuAIAAZFiAgAAEXkY= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 02:46:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> <976AFF7C-4DDC-4EF5-874C-AA7526A00A2C@ietf.org> <4685ae0b-0ce9-0bc6-e50f-9f280af543be@si6networks.com> <294D03DE-2807-466D-8C83-05AAF9F0D137@cable.comcast.com>, <0c12a905-5fce-13fc-557a-fb60f5f17e43@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <0c12a905-5fce-13fc-557a-fb60f5f17e43@si6networks.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: si6networks.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;si6networks.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:41:200:d70:647e:942c:d403:d2fe] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 72df8c1c-8bb2-4d48-4aee-08d8deb7b443 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR11MB2946: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 72df8c1c-8bb2-4d48-4aee-08d8deb7b443 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Mar 2021 02:46:25.6906 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: 6RnhxtbDVR8Y4zEeVOh2f7/Iqi9SpfJtlUGSRODCtr/j4XmtbSObrPbdnhR4MjXke9U9kwZPbJrWxc2ceJ+204gHJZ8GlzA1pvc/E4PtHdo= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BL0PR11MB2946 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB4287E2300C593AB5E2E458D0C7979MN2PR11MB4287namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWQ X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-03-04_01:2021-03-03, 2021-03-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [EXTERNAL] Re: IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 02:46:32 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB4287E2300C593AB5E2E458D0C7979MN2PR11MB4287namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The first part of the meeting is always open and this agenda topic certainl= y will be. ________________________________ From: Fernando Gont Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 9:30:15 PM To: Livingood, Jason ; admin-discuss@iet= f.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from = USA-sanctioned countries On 3/3/21 22:31, Livingood, Jason wrote: > On 3/3/21, 7:16 PM, "admin-discuss on behalf of Fernando Gont" wrote: > > >> Looking at the direct impact, every US company and individual > >> including the LLC is covered. For example, every online service = such > >> as Twitter, GitHub, every US based airline, every US drug company= and > >> so on. > > > FWIW, I find this *very* oppressive. > > [JL] Are you available to join the next LLC board call on 11 March at 20:= 00 UTC? I'm almost sure I can join. > > Is the issue associated with the economic transaction involved to = pay > the meeting fee? Or actually with participation (regardless of whet= her > a fee is being paid or not)? > > > That said, in this particular case the sanctions would seem to affe= ct > even on-line participation (aside from travel/visa issues). > > [JL] None of us are lawyers or specialists in OFAC compliance -- we're ge= tting into legal territory that would best be answered by counsel at the ne= xt LLC meeting, if you could join us at that time. I have added it to our a= genda. Details and Webex link at https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ie= tf.org/about/groups/llc-board/meeting-info/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!VWP7b-zom5rCzglC= ADLllPrW4Qgyg351-sfusH9cG6jOg__WEqeS0q1hOHmsmS4OFhNBMA$ . Is the meeting open? -- I ask because I guess somebody else with more knowledge than myself might also be able to join, and ask better questions, or contribute better than myself. As noted, I'm sure I'll be able to join. e.g., RIRs thend to deal with many of these countries: RIPE wiht IRan, LACNIC with Cuba.... Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 --_000_MN2PR11MB4287E2300C593AB5E2E458D0C7979MN2PR11MB4287namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The first part of the meeting is always open and this agen= da topic certainly will be. 

From: Fernando Gont <fgo= nt@si6networks.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 9:30:15 PM
To: Livingood, Jason <Jason_Livingood@cable.comcast.com>; admi= n-discuss@ietf.org <admin-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC & IETF Particip= ation from USA-sanctioned countries
 
On 3/3/21 22:31, Livingood, Jason wrote:
> On 3/3/21, 7:16 PM, "admin-discuss on behalf of Fernando Gont&quo= t; <admin-discuss-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of fgont@si6networks.com>= ; wrote:
>
>      >>  Looking at the direct imp= act, every US company and individual
>      >> including the LLC is covered.&n= bsp; For example, every online service such
>      >> as Twitter, GitHub, every US ba= sed airline, every US drug company and
>      >> so on.
>
>      > FWIW, I find this *very* oppressive= .
>
> [JL] Are you available to join the next LLC board call on 11 March at = 20:00 UTC?

I'm almost sure I can join.



>      > Is the issue associated with the ec= onomic transaction involved to pay
>      the meeting fee?  Or actually with = participation (regardless of whether
>      a fee is being paid or not)?
>
>     > That said, in this particular case the sa= nctions would seem to affect
>      even on-line participation (aside from t= ravel/visa issues).
>
> [JL] None of us are lawyers or specialists in OFAC compliance -- we're= getting into legal territory that would best be answered by counsel at the= next LLC meeting, if you could join us at that time. I have added it to ou= r agenda. Details and Webex link at https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/mee= ting-info/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!VWP7b-zom5rCzglCADLllPrW4Qgyg351-sfusH9cG6jOg__WE= qeS0q1hOHmsmS4OFhNBMA$ .

Is the meeting open? -- I ask because I guess somebody else with more
knowledge than myself might also be able to join, and ask better
questions, or contribute better than myself. As noted, I'm sure I'll be able to join.

e.g., RIRs thend to deal with many of these countries: RIPE wiht IRan,
LACNIC with Cuba....

Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492



--_000_MN2PR11MB4287E2300C593AB5E2E458D0C7979MN2PR11MB4287namp_-- From nobody Thu Mar 4 11:22:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB263A14C5; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 11:22:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Executive Director To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.26.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <161488575304.11355.9418031036357617658@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 11:22:33 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] Consultation on proposals regarding planning for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 19:22:33 -0000 As the global COVID-19 pandemic is still with us, the IESG, IETF Administration LLC and IRTF Chair need to make a decision on whether to go ahead with an in-person meeting for IETF 111 San Francisco or switch to an online meeting. While it seems highly unlikely that an in-person meeting can go ahead, we think it is important to continue to follow our formal assessment process as used for IETF 108 and IETF 109. We are therefore seeking feedback on the following: 1. Assessment Criteria We propose to use the same criteria [1] for assessing whether to go ahead with an in-person IETF 111 meeting or switch to an online meeting as used for IETF 109. These criteria were previously consulted on, amended as a result of the consultation, and worked well when used for IETF 109 [2]. 2. Fee structure We propose to use the same fee structure as used for IETF 110 [3] including unlimited fee waivers. 3. Decision timetable We propose to use the following assessment timetable: 05 Mar 2021 This consultation opens. 02 Apr 2021 Consultation closes. 09 Apr 2021 Response to consultation communicated and assessment begins using the final criteria. 16 Apr 2021 Decision made and communicated. 03 May 2021 Registration opens. 26 Jul 2021 IETF 111 begins. The proposed decision date of 16 April 2021 is 14 weeks before the meeting date when previously these decisions were made 10 weeks before. We have brought this forward so that in the unlikely event we proceed with an in-person meeting, we leave sufficient time for people to make travel arrangements Please send any feedback to manycouches@ietf.org by 02 April 2021. [1] https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/109/assessment-framework-person-vs-online-ietf-109-meeting/ [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/7GHV8JuZuNgYjv-Dt9wrk_CN5BE/ [3] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/ZU6cYhBTdxD63Ki2c4hUSsVfkCw/ -- Alissa Cooper, IETF Chair Jay Daley, IETF Executive Director Colin Perkins, IRTF Chair From nobody Fri Mar 5 06:17:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA243A25CF; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:17:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w6nEcrFHvXUh; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F27D83A25CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3C3389E8; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 09:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id eutHQYOeUWJu; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 09:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A79389E7; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 09:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46CE018B; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 09:17:12 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: manycouches@ietf.org cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <161488575304.11355.9418031036357617658@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <161488575304.11355.9418031036357617658@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Consultation on proposals regarding planning for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 14:17:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As Stewart points out, the USG has a travel ban for arriving. And my country has a quarantine requirement if I travel. While I *might* get a first shot of vaccine before July 1, I probably won't have the immunity developed by the meeting time. At the same time, I think that it may well be possible for many US residents to travel to SFO. So, if Californians are allowed to gather, it might be possible to have three or four hundred US attendees. Could we then have a second (or even third) site elsewhere? Somewhere that Europeans can travel to easily? Maybe another Hilton proper= ty. And the rest of us would be remote. Maybe not worth doing, but I think, worth discussing. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmBCPWcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWp9Af8DT5N6GShxXgxOS1/VLxnELzb1eZkLncdsaIj1AatpVzcc2eJE06m3Zsw X0bhu5jEF0DUlymQTxGkN6Zhnoe9vrvwLssWpjmlG69OBorO6MBI/Ftys4WfmR08 XZzRpfxuDrM46zyh7QXHIlfghNrxUJGjzZhkXJ/CKF/M5xK3dmwfBwq08QGQnWv6 OZNF+keXGIyfoiXh367qh8xxDAZ7zMYBdjljX82TxFRYTI9m2rlCVgSJItzFzDnI cpaCfWSQudqthUO5bWaWhp5t6NFscp66/rhM/2vtLBsFzYEnLWw8V4EAPLSp2oRf 7C5QCXskpaE2zlwM+Yfu6C8bKFOMVg== =KjyV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Mar 5 07:07:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351E13A266E; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 07:07:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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[24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a131sm5277576wmc.48.2021.03.05.08.51.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Mar 2021 08:51:19 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_52D37134-5689-4BED-BAF4-C779EF86F3CC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 08:51:14 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Michael Richardson , "manycouches@ietf.org" , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" To: "Livingood, Jason" References: <161488575304.11355.9418031036357617658@ietfa.amsl.com> <18780.1614953832@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Consultation on proposals regarding planning for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 16:51:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_52D37134-5689-4BED-BAF4-C779EF86F3CC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jason, > On Mar 5, 2021, at 7:07 AM, Livingood, Jason = wrote: >=20 > On 3/5/21, 9:18 AM, "admin-discuss on behalf of Michael Richardson" = = wrote: >=20 >> At the same time, I think that it may well be possible for many US = residents > to travel to SFO. So, if Californians are allowed to gather, it = might be > possible to have three or four hundred US attendees. >=20 > As a US resident I think this is unrealistic. I cannot possibly = imagine an indoor gathering of several hundred people for quite a long = time. As well, employees in my business unit must seek very senior = approval for any travel and must justify it as essential emergency = travel to keep our business running. I agree. I also think the logistics of having, for example, three = satellite concurrent meeting locations and having single sessions will = be problematic at best. For some it will travel to a different city = and then have meetings in the middle of the night. > The real question IMO is when in 2022 we might be able to resume = in-person meetings and under what protocols. I think there is some hope for the November meeting, but really hard to = tell at this point in time. Bob >=20 > Jason >=20 > -- > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --Apple-Mail=_52D37134-5689-4BED-BAF4-C779EF86F3CC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmBCYYIACgkQrut0EXfn u6gTCwf9FxEVmGSuW8OdQgizQIV2e8wERuEcF69ZW2BoavL35O9T/dNMOgisklc7 6Fl9qlcSKgNdx7Biee6pCcjgBndd4mOcvnkwqYvuYY61cSNim2OaylplzPpjnVzY g+wjVt3Mkw1QrURjpQKSljUIRwxFMXiYEQEsR0yZACl3d8mfSrxl4qa6iJuqZdwB JzXX5m2csAdWPTC4fkQX/7+kYTXJjbojnHZJ4g0nfi4Nwg3gUDddFR/1NKSxgpqQ or60t4Yh+XwBlxSDgx8YnXYFtDpVyQZRfzI7Wed9KB3LhhCpDo5/vdSjNj2Wfr0v HIsY13Q45tWtwNKNOGbcGEGvNQwzyQ== =mr+9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_52D37134-5689-4BED-BAF4-C779EF86F3CC-- From nobody Fri Mar 5 11:51:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D923A0BCF; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 11:51:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vwMqAyuQ2hPn; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 11:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10C543A0B5F; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 11:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE11389E3; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 4GObFz3FwQxj; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61497389E2; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8341718B; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:51:21 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "manycouches\@ietf.org" , "admin-discuss\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <161488575304.11355.9418031036357617658@ietfa.amsl.com> <18780.1614953832@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Consultation on proposals regarding planning for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 19:51:33 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Livingood, Jason wrote: > On 3/5/21, 9:18 AM, "admin-discuss on behalf of Michael Richardson" > > wrote: >> At the same time, I think that it may well be possible for many US >> residents >> to travel to SFO. So, if Californians are allowed to gather, it >> might be possible to have three or four hundred US attendees. > As a US resident I think this is unrealistic. It's hard for me to judge from here. I see a lot more travel around the US than here. I agree that I don't see lots of gatherings (at least, among the sane). > The real question IMO is when in 2022 we might be able to resume > in-person meetings and under what protocols. So, in your opinion, not even fall 2021 (IETF112) in Madrid? What if we tried a hybrid approache for 112? =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmBCi7kACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVSwwf/SeMXNkLeW5mmKhfzbbTXXGGEUg860WEHOWxFmz4A52xcPvVnmwSYguR0 jL3R68Lt+SY0OIDN+gFDU0JUun0AJnn4okiTHBpeZvowejmLaHkWx4KEyxkvJ7tI TGQdn8t+p1daQw/PGRcqAQhSGlTRBHA+hHPmj/A7Y9WoJ5Lz5XopagD8wdQMIvq+ ZgYBlF4VFldaj8qN65EXRwrt/hKkrHqbbLHPqtLfdqBNlH6B5wkUzry2Qrh16RDL AWHzo5qZGQmqoLR7UAMnTy9oR/zcGIevUFB/8GrUtTXEQAH950zqF3oqIeBmkPda SyV8IyPICyEuu3DJIaXZlbmjh+9/4Q== =uGhN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Mar 6 08:25:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447E63A0C84 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 08:25:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Sat, 6 Mar 2021 16:24:16 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Fernando Gont , Keith Moore , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries Thread-Index: AQHXEHTlGp0JphuKhU2nDnBSZCYO0apy1EOAgADiNYCAAEVBgIAACCuAgAAnAACAABV6AIAAAYaAgAADn4CAAAhEAIAAB8kAgAKAAgA= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 16:24:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> <20210303221433.ufsitioimata4dtg@crankycanuck.ca> <4739AA0B-95BA-48C8-A17D-730EAF547F55@gmail.com> <20210304155203.n5cfd3kmu2fpgdrt@crankycanuck.ca> <4FCD1F07-6DE9-402F-AFD3-A3C42F3D0ACF@cisco.com> <5a221b8f-73d8-037d-9b4f-f51a9c54e3bd@network-heretics.com> <20210304195744.jbgzpjlegbogmxu4@crankycanuck.ca> <25E6DFA6-C70D-4094-AC8C-19E0DBD46AEE@cisco.com> <54fd914c-a95c-2cef-658a-1bcd5e9e47a6@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.46.21021202 authentication-results: si6networks.com; 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Mon, 8 Mar 2021 00:50:25 +0000 (UTC) To: "Salz, Rich" , "Livingood, Jason" , Keith Moore , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" References: From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3b020c5a-d673-0d52-50a3-129561862e84@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 21:45:59 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 00:50:32 -0000 On 6/3/21 15:09, Salz, Rich wrote: >> [JL] Please join the next board meeting - next week. We will have counsel on the call to discuss this. > > I know the minutes are posted. I enourage the Board to post a draft summary on this topic before it is able to approve and post the minutes. +1 Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Mar 9 05:52:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27AC93A0CB8 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2021 05:52:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lOCQlJMkptkO for ; 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Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:04:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 1D722440166; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:04:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:04:42 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Livingood, Jason" Cc: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , "ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" Message-ID: <20210312160442.GI50270@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> <20210303221433.ufsitioimata4dtg@crankycanuck.ca> <20210311055635.GA14195@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20210311191924.s32xnsdrvggpj6rz@crankycanuck.ca> <20210312112539.GA807@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <332DFA6E-4A69-4F67-B02E-3C402371BDA6@cable.comcast.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <332DFA6E-4A69-4F67-B02E-3C402371BDA6@cable.comcast.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 16:04:49 -0000 Thanks a lot, Jason I was actually interested to see an easy landing point (URL) not only for OFAC, but also stuff like visa regulations, EAR and whatever else is a real (or imagined) challenge to our community. If something like OFAC is "imagined" or "not yet" a challenge, thats nice to hear. But for example, the impact and reaction of EAR was also mostly communicated mouth to mouth only. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 03:56:53PM +0000, Livingood, Jason wrote: > Hi Toerless - We covered this briefly in yesterday's IETF LLC meeting with counsel. We took an action item to get back to the community with a bit of formal text on this. But the summary is that we have no evidence to suggest OFAC rules have on their own prevented participation or would in the future. Stay tuned for more info & have a nice weekend. > > - Jason > > ???On 3/12/21, 6:26 AM, "ietf on behalf of Toerless Eckert" wrote: > > Thanks, Andrew > > So, when i understand this correctly the normal procedure would be to > ignore or report to the authorities requests for sanctioned transactions. > > Would it not also be possible to forward such requests to the IETF lawyer > and have them publish the request, therefore letting folks (lawyers) > who do know how to handle these things legally correctly do the job ? > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 02:19:24PM -0500, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Usual disclaimer: I work for ISOC, but this isn't their opinion. For the avoidance of doubt, nothing I am talking about is somethng I learned during my current employment. > > > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 06:56:35AM +0100, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > > What is the easily found public URL where any such case is documented ? > > > > I would be astonished if there were one. Documenting such a case would be publicly acting on a request from a sanctioned entity, which would be tantamount to admission that one processed their request, which (under the relevant interpretation) would incur a legal risk of having violated the sanctions. If you feel that you are reading a passage from _Catch 22_, I appreciate your sensation. > > > > Best regards, > > > > A > > > > -- > > Andrew Sullivan > > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Mar 12 08:48:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90903A12C7 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 08:48:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit 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PiAgICAgLS0NCiAgICA+ICAgICAtLS0NCiAgICA+ICAgICB0dGVAY3MuZmF1LmRlDQogICAgPg0K DQogICAgLS0NCiAgICAtLS0NCiAgICB0dGVAY3MuZmF1LmRlDQoNCiAgICAtLQ0KICAgIGFkbWlu LWRpc2N1c3MgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgYWRtaW4tZGlzY3Vzc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0 dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2FkbWluLWRpc2N1c3NfXzshIUNRbDNtY0hYMkEhU21DbVIwVWcwVGdNVlVlUmdWc0py NUp5VUNlWjdPV3VhWk50NmtYX3ZXejNiVF8zY201c2UtQTFMc29CTzdGb2RvcDRUdyQNCg0K From nobody Sun Mar 14 16:17:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6B23A08D6; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 16:17:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2v4yBG1XNh2N; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 16:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79C343A08C0; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 16:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1lLZz1-000N7z-5P; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:17:15 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:17:09 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: admin-discuss@ietf.org, 110all@ietf.org Message-ID: <5687DF5848D4055AA1658D07@PSB> In-Reply-To: <583EA4FA-D2B9-488E-9A66-A8956169ABCC@ietf.org> References: <583EA4FA-D2B9-488E-9A66-A8956169ABCC@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [110all] IETF 110 survey reminder X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 23:17:18 -0000 TL;DR summary: Please consider that many of us have work to do to follow up on substantive technical issues resulting from the meeting. If a survey is time-consuming and has no partway exit path, at least for people with other commitments, you force a choice between "complete survey" and "get IETF work done". There is no winning choice. Rant below. --On Monday, March 15, 2021 09:44 +1300 IETF Executive Director wrote: > This is a reminder to please help us understand and improve > the meeting experience by filling out this short survey while > it is fresh in your mind > > https://ietf.iad1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_6hTsDUOGTJJtTh4 > > We are particularly interested to understand what impact was > on the meeting experience of the new pre-meeting system > testing, new conflict resolution technology and new integrated > helpdesk system. > We've shortened this survey since the last meeting while > keeping plenty of opportunity for you to share your views. We > need as many responses as possible please. I don't know if I'm the only one, but it is still too long, with too many mandatory questions and two many questions that take a good deal of time to answer adequately. If the survey instrument is set up so that someone who gets about halfway through then gives up because trying to move off a given page gets stuck with a message of "Please answer this question", you not only don't get answers to the remaining questions but don't get the first half of the answers (the ones already filled in) either. Maybe that is what you want, but it creates a serious case of what professional survey statisticians and researchers call sample bias. If the goal is to have something to count, that is fine; it is is to get information about the whole set of IETF participants... Well, you might consider offering an alternate survey with no more than the participant-identifying information at the beginning and a question of why people were unwilling to invest the time and effort to complete it. Or, better yet, provide an exit path after each page of questions that captures questions already answered and "why did the respondent not go any further" information without that being burdensome. If, as indicated above, you are particularly interested in three sets of questions, then decide whether, if you cannot get every respondent (and, ideally, every participant, to respond to all three, organizing the survey so that people can respond to only one or two would be a good idea no matter how much you encourage responding to all three. Or, taking opinion measurement sophistication up a notch, think about sampling, subsets of questions for different respondents, etc. best, john From nobody Sun Mar 14 19:03:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606363A0F4D for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:03:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gEhIaQIJV6JD; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41AA33A0F4A; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:03:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <588D797C-23BE-43D0-AD6A-B212596527C5@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BD22CC10-9B8F-4A40-8105-F20926EAF0F2" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:03:12 +1300 In-Reply-To: <5687DF5848D4055AA1658D07@PSB> Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: John C Klensin References: <583EA4FA-D2B9-488E-9A66-A8956169ABCC@ietf.org> <5687DF5848D4055AA1658D07@PSB> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [110all] IETF 110 survey reminder X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 02:03:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BD22CC10-9B8F-4A40-8105-F20926EAF0F2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 15/03/2021, at 12:17 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > TL;DR summary: Please consider that many of us have work to do > to follow up on substantive technical issues resulting from the > meeting. If a survey is time-consuming and has no partway exit > path, at least for people with other commitments, you force a > choice between "complete survey" and "get IETF work done". > There is no winning choice. >=20 > Rant below. >=20 > --On Monday, March 15, 2021 09:44 +1300 IETF Executive Director > > wrote: >=20 >> This is a reminder to please help us understand and improve >> the meeting experience by filling out this short survey while >> it is fresh in your mind >>=20 >> https://ietf.iad1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_6hTsDUOGTJJtTh4 >>=20 >> We are particularly interested to understand what impact was >> on the meeting experience of the new pre-meeting system >> testing, new conflict resolution technology and new integrated >> helpdesk system. >=20 >> We've shortened this survey since the last meeting while >> keeping plenty of opportunity for you to share your views. We >> need as many responses as possible please. >=20 > I don't know if I'm the only one, but it is still too long, with > too many mandatory questions There were a grand total of four mandatory questions (out of a maximum = of 32), two of which were necessary for branching and two for meaningful = demographics. The latter has now been reduced to 1 leaving three = mandatory questions. (the one I made optional was how many conflicts did = you experience). > and two many questions that take a > good deal of time to answer adequately. The median time to complete is currently 382 seconds and the first = quartile is 259 (that includes several outliers of over an hour that I = have not cleaned up). As a reminder, someone can spend up to 108,000 = seconds participating in an online meeting, so this is asking them to = spend 0.35% of that time on making it better for the next time around. > If the survey > instrument is set up so that someone who gets about halfway > through then gives up because trying to move off a given page > gets stuck with a message of "Please answer this question", you > not only don't get answers to the remaining questions but don't > get the first half of the answers (the ones already filled in) > either. Maybe that is what you want, but it creates a serious > case of what professional survey statisticians and researchers > call sample bias. If the goal is to have something to count, > that is fine; it is is to get information about the whole set of > IETF participants... Well, you might consider offering an > alternate survey with no more than the participant-identifying > information at the beginning and a question of why people were > unwilling to invest the time and effort to complete it. Or, > better yet, provide an exit path after each page of questions > that captures questions already answered and "why did the > respondent not go any further" information without that being > burdensome. The survey software identifies partial vs complete answers and all = partial answers are discarded to avoid early answer bias. >=20 > If, as indicated above, you are particularly interested in three > sets of questions, then decide whether, if you cannot get every > respondent (and, ideally, every participant, to respond to all > three, organizing the survey so that people can respond to only > one or two would be a good idea no matter how much you encourage > responding to all three. Or, taking opinion measurement > sophistication up a notch, think about sampling, subsets of > questions for different respondents, etc. The three things above were highlighted to preview the contents of the = survey and encourage people to respond. =20 I think it=E2=80=99s important to remember that we=E2=80=99re not doing = surveys that determine critical resource allocation such as funding = formulae for hospitals. What we=E2=80=99re doing is feeding a process = of continuous improvement - we find out what the issues are, make = changes to address them, measure the impact of the changes - all in = overlapping cycles. For that purpose this form of surveying is = perfectly acceptable and does not need the level of sophistication, = effort and resources you propose. However, as always, thank you for the feedback. Jay >=20 > best, > john >=20 >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_BD22CC10-9B8F-4A40-8105-F20926EAF0F2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 15/03/2021, at 12:17 PM, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> = wrote:

TL;DR summary: Please consider = that many of us have work to do
to follow up on substantive technical issues resulting from = the
meeting. =  If a survey is time-consuming and has no partway exit
path, at least for people with = other commitments, you force a
choice between "complete survey" and "get IETF work = done".
There is no = winning choice.

Rant below.

--On Monday, March 15, 2021 09:44 +1300 IETF Executive = Director
<exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

This is a reminder to please help us = understand and improve
the meeting experience by filling = out this short survey while
it is fresh in your mind

https://ietf.iad1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_6hTsDUOGTJJtTh4=

We are particularly interested to = understand what impact was
on the meeting experience of = the new pre-meeting system
testing, new conflict = resolution technology and new integrated
helpdesk = system.

We've shortened this survey since the = last meeting while
keeping plenty of opportunity for you = to share your views.  We
need as many responses as = possible please.

I don't know if I'm the only one, but it is still too long, = with
too many = mandatory questions

There were a grand total of four mandatory = questions (out of a maximum of 32), two of which were necessary for = branching and two for meaningful demographics.  The latter has now = been reduced to 1 leaving three mandatory questions. (the one I made = optional was how many conflicts did you experience).

and two many questions that take = a
good deal of = time to answer adequately.

The median time to complete is currently 382 = seconds and the first quartile is 259 (that includes several outliers of = over an hour that I have not cleaned up).  As a reminder, someone = can spend up to 108,000 seconds participating in an online meeting, so = this is asking them to spend 0.35% of that time on making it better for = the next time around.


 If the survey
instrument is set up so that = someone who gets about halfway
through then gives up because trying to move off a given = page
gets stuck = with a message of "Please answer this question", you
not only don't get answers to = the remaining questions but don't
get the first half of the answers (the ones already filled = in)
either. =  Maybe that is what you want, but it creates a serious
case of what professional survey = statisticians and researchers
call sample bias.  If the goal is to have something to = count,
that is fine; = it is is to get information about the whole set of
IETF participants...  Well, = you might consider offering an
alternate survey with no more than the = participant-identifying
information at the beginning and a question of why people = were
unwilling to = invest the time and effort to complete it.  Or,
better yet, provide an exit path = after each page of questions
that captures questions already answered and "why did = the
respondent = not go any further" information without that being
burdensome.

The survey = software identifies partial vs complete answers and all partial answers = are discarded to avoid early answer bias.


If, as indicated above, you are particularly interested in = three
sets of = questions, then decide whether, if you cannot get every
respondent (and, ideally, every = participant, to respond to all
three, organizing the survey so that people can respond to = only
one or two = would be a good idea no matter how much you encourage
responding to all three. =  Or, taking opinion measurement
sophistication up a notch, think about sampling, subsets = of
questions for = different respondents, etc.

The three things above were highlighted to preview = the contents of the survey and encourage people to respond. =  

I think it=E2=80=99s = important to remember that we=E2=80=99re not doing surveys that = determine critical resource allocation such as funding formulae for = hospitals.  What we=E2=80=99re doing is feeding a process of = continuous improvement - we find out what the issues are, make changes = to address them, measure the impact of the changes - all in overlapping = cycles.  For that purpose this form of surveying is perfectly = acceptable and does not need the level of sophistication, effort and = resources you propose.

However, as = always, thank you for the feedback.

Jay


best,
  john


-- admin-discuss mailing = list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_BD22CC10-9B8F-4A40-8105-F20926EAF0F2-- From nobody Sun Mar 14 19:06:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4ED03A0FCB; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:06:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6se_BLKoZP3r; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 606F73A0FCA; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997C7BE20; Mon, 15 Mar 2021 02:06:36 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AeYi38fKdgmH; Mon, 15 Mar 2021 02:06:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 030A8BE1C; Mon, 15 Mar 2021 02:06:34 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1615773995; bh=KLhR9Whc6uYURrn4/fMSIyVYrE1BYTpw2qck16xMleA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=2FooFXKjlJAao1ivqRpTlNlew+gIFIPABvjYGJAhBIDsLvSwvqS6QcC4KzoIPBkmi cSOA6mdbB/tOc+B6apq42KPUCXlhBopnxGVbz20i894rkekHd5cJMQwf+zr1iI811G R6N/83lBQiebRE0b40+n67pPyKoNI4QyCeHLXiPU= To: Jay Daley , John C Klensin Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <583EA4FA-D2B9-488E-9A66-A8956169ABCC@ietf.org> <5687DF5848D4055AA1658D07@PSB> <588D797C-23BE-43D0-AD6A-B212596527C5@ietf.org> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <475041be-7317-af3c-3bc6-a6fd1725e3c1@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 02:06:34 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <588D797C-23BE-43D0-AD6A-B212596527C5@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jMx6ikkYRwgbNPL4p21LyEM8BVp8zIoMR" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [110all] IETF 110 survey reminder X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 02:06:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --jMx6ikkYRwgbNPL4p21LyEM8BVp8zIoMR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="tmEBKzhpvZH4E64Hcg5YDYTpi1sYJCx9q"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jay Daley , John C Klensin Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <475041be-7317-af3c-3bc6-a6fd1725e3c1@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [110all] IETF 110 survey reminder References: <583EA4FA-D2B9-488E-9A66-A8956169ABCC@ietf.org> <5687DF5848D4055AA1658D07@PSB> <588D797C-23BE-43D0-AD6A-B212596527C5@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <588D797C-23BE-43D0-AD6A-B212596527C5@ietf.org> --tmEBKzhpvZH4E64Hcg5YDYTpi1sYJCx9q Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------97690A4CC1A67B6CF4398416" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------97690A4CC1A67B6CF4398416 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 15/03/2021 02:03, Jay Daley wrote: > The median time to complete is currently 382 seconds Bugger. Now I wish I'd recorded how long it took me:-) It wasn't long though. 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBOwSoFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qg og/+P/evu6tJzAROXaZjKnY4tZCQkRX2VfZdCUTAiqbu7M58c0cnr6Ytm84G+X0UFPnJcda7rETh LDguxFQgrt1jrW2ExhTjtnLgb7J5rBlsnU6s/t7kQUM8zTY03oP+ja7xb+MgtsBXuJgLIfPCbGJo kNQnQmp62ky03KDbxmt9+l3vDtau8/TWxOJkOJjI2gfCKYPE5iUZFfdmtAM4oDNTEsDYF9xDUAKX T/Ah9dpVacgYilRUtbuKjoqDhHx9Z2mQXgparBTWH4DsMB6h2uSFpFthS6gc2yfUZB+OPUGc+R4H Nk6czy9JvOAdt3Biwi5T3pEFWWnBJh6xYA6b9WG6XJIoOQ1JIKLuIzHLnS3yuVDNdx+3ilX/66SV ZerPhJq0oNFsh2EAzSSO9MuRkEW/6kkwpI7bE55I+HSOQ5VZAmoZsO5lfKGO8cmXS2BUvwDJu1Mb JX3k3/LBeX6TtJ84zDoeoa1vzLWH435mbvjyM9BZrsNNYO0depcEbRo78oEu7KpqxtqhtRUf7XUV SDKwqfSK8U3JnUmyc9EQtJiAVeTzcJUpU+tZCiywSTuqBX/V7puEwjGey/6RaltTEXWgqI61n0et AoKfySOhFyGNb/HZALS/3Ju34cw8tGQTrXw7gCNnLk0i0abFP8tOS0gKEnR0jPlrV74QUPn4hpOF y3Y= =rJRX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jMx6ikkYRwgbNPL4p21LyEM8BVp8zIoMR-- From nobody Sun Mar 14 20:21:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10713A119B; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 20:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3oRYhssynMxb; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 20:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E8FE3A119A; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 20:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1lLdnG-000Nu9-PF; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 23:21:22 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 23:21:16 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Stephen Farrell , Jay Daley cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <569CA9D7B35C1E18F22E06F3@PSB> In-Reply-To: <475041be-7317-af3c-3bc6-a6fd1725e3c1@cs.tcd.ie> References: <583EA4FA-D2B9-488E-9A66-A8956169ABCC@ietf.org> <5687DF5848D4055AA1658D07@PSB> <588D797C-23BE-43D0-AD6A-B212596527C5@ietf.org> <475041be-7317-af3c-3bc6-a6fd1725e3c1@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [110all] IETF 110 survey reminder X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 03:21:26 -0000 --On Monday, March 15, 2021 02:06 +0000 Stephen Farrell wrote: > On 15/03/2021 02:03, Jay Daley wrote: >> The median time to complete is currently 382 seconds > > Bugger. Now I wish I'd recorded how long it took me:-) > > It wasn't long though. It may be, and probably is, that I'm just not working as rapidly as I used to and/or that I was trying to answer questions carefully and that sometimes took going back to other files and looking things up, but I was over eight minutes when I gave up and, if the little bar at the bottom is to be believed, that was about at the halfway point (and at one of the questions that turned out to be mandatory after I determined that I didn't want to go back to my agenda notes looking for conflicts that I had put aside once I determined which of the sessions I was going to attend. And, fwiw, medians are interesting but, if one is going to keep enough statistics to compute and report on them, understanding what was going on around the upper hinge, even if not the maximum, would be worthwhile). john From nobody Tue Mar 16 15:36:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62BF23A11DC for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:36:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.27.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <161593417933.32713.10838159842136966636@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:36:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] LLC Board Annual Strategic Planning Retreat Details - 23-24 March 2021 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 22:36:19 -0000 The IETF LLC is holding an annual Strategic Planning Retreat via web/teleconference next week. Members of the community are welcome to attend certain portions of the retreat. A detailed agenda has been posted with indications of which sections of the meeting are open and which are closed to the public, as well as information about how to send comments and questions in advance. The agenda can be found at . The strategic planning retreat will be held on Tuesday 23 March and Wednesday 24 March from 18:00 UTC to 21:00 UTC each day. WebEx and Dial-in information is at the bottom of this message and also at . A calendar of upcoming public meetings can be downloaded or subscribed to at: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/ietf.org_vmffrv4hq14aqpedenuv5v42hs%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ------------------------------------------------------- JOIN WEBEX MEETING https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mbc6005f6cd84bed7edd1724607612d8a Meeting number (access code): 185 500 9522 Meeting password: 2021 JOIN BY PHONE 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 185 500 9522 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation. 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWS X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-03-16_09:2021-03-16, 2021-03-16 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] LLC Board Annual Strategic Planning Retreat Details - 23-24 March 2021 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 00:09:01 -0000 QSBxdWljayBmb2xsb3ctdXAgbm90ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBtYWpvcml0eSBvZiB0aGUgYWdlbmRhIHRp bWUgaXMgb3BlbiB0byBhbnlvbmUgKGFnZW5kYSBhdCBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tZWRp YS9kb2N1bWVudHMvQWdlbmRhXy1fMjAyMV9TdHJhdGVnaWNfUGxhbm5pbmdfUmV0cmVhdC5wZGYp LiBHaXZlbiB0aW1lIGNvbnN0cmFpbnRzIHdlIHZlcnkgbXVjaCBhcHByZWNpYXRlIGNvbW1lbnRz LCBxdWVzdGlvbnMsIG9yIG90aGVyIGlucHV0IGluIGFkdmFuY2UgYXQgbGxjLWJvYXJkQGlldGYu b3JnIC0gdGhvdWdoIG9mIGNvdXJzZSBsaXZlIGludGVyYWN0aW9uIGlzIGFsc28gYWNjZXB0YWJs ZS4gWW91IGNhbiBjb21tZW50IG9uIGFueSBvciBhbGwgYWdlbmRhIGl0ZW1zIG9yIGFueXRoaW5n IGVsc2UuDQoNCktleSB0b3BpY3MgYXQgYSBoaWdoIGxldmVsOg0KLSBDb21tdW5pdHkgZW5nYWdl bWVudA0KLSBIb3cgdG8gYXBwcm9hY2ggdGhlIElBU0EyIHJldHJvc3BlY3RpdmUNCi0gRnVuZHJh aXNpbmcNCi0gSW1wcm92aW5nIGRpdmVyc2l0eSAmIGluY2x1c2lvbg0KLSBQb3N0LUNPVklEIHJl dHVybiB0byBub3JtYWwNCi0gU3RyYXRlZ2ljIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aXZlICYgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGRl YnQNCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91LA0KSmFzb24NCg0K From nobody Thu Mar 18 14:59:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8393A0AD7; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 14:59:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJDq-3eYPqyN; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 14:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 053173A0AD5; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 14:59:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:59:00 +1300 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:59:07 -0000 As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been suggested by = multiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned = IETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even = possible. The Secretariat are going to start looking at this with a = view to producing an assessment framework that can be used to determine = if a particular booking can be adjusted to accommodate a hybrid meeting = and what is needed to make that happen. This will be considering lots of = things, including, but not limited to:=20 - how big a Secretariat or NOC presence do we need at a minimum? - what happens if none of the chairs of a session can be present in the = room? - what would the impact be of any social distancing requirements? - how does this work with the occupancy rates that we guarantee = contractually (and pay penalties for if they are missed)? It is unlikely that this will be ready in time for us to consider IETF = 111 but it should be ready in time for us to consider IETF 112 becoming = a hybrid meeting. Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions on other = things to consider. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Thu Mar 18 15:15:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694293A0BB1; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfJGMMrc95Nd; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 340E63A0BAB; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id h3so4462786pfr.12; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=wGnh33K08bKkrxDbqk+DTD1aBVorRPL8QlT8VViqeWI=; b=IcqePWBOTAFy5fHsg7UjSAoXC4SVZCTgve+gx/v0teJnrl6kKh23Bxq88MucafDL5H 0csrdmLgaB+4/2b9SK3EcmLABhGBAnWOyW2qpRjrKfOy4QQEZluf7vaelLMBwEVN0CBy 8/FZiEC4bQQKkDlNOcvWo4R2mYYAhrTwmXczrTyBzxSzf1MDf7ZSwiHW7au4tnylP4B1 /WYxWFzgUjaby7RaJGH7bD5b6kYQXp1hzCxXdEkTS+EqgVmgOLZ+aeCQlmy7sL1CY6J4 lf6CfX64K0w5zeX4HvngncVYq6oTpx2DP6ZMdhb1NW5sX2imKDy1UvrkdyCoD2OD0Kqp 4MZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=wGnh33K08bKkrxDbqk+DTD1aBVorRPL8QlT8VViqeWI=; b=Sxg1lsa/+EWM/EBj2H9oncjFNEFHgHFW+vxcLmHX+4oMJo7Gw7klNq/fjS9sdIEvOb xsj/Q+vsvp6J1Wn9n64wjc/cdLh2nWTYVjOoBZa+u7rP1NJciSST2AhdvIF42zE4+jaC oNYeiBfo+uNZRF5c7ZNhyHwV0GeItNWmKAk+I9jvVa/mlxn7FgR7XAeR5csYR2+J7f52 BFA5/n0xfrX504faqCZldNWhdUqgr8N7wefDKwFuyPx++PcHBQZFwNuI/5a6ojHuuZcG xKmdfT71Wc9c++p74YswZD+pnSpjQe1g3WXEd0ZjKfckS25i2niF5XqjJDoXtfkH7hGe UHMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531AQEg40MG9t1V+PWMTntdpRESw+y26CYx/uLBLWbPIDqTIVYnq 3mxTyP7OLnr5XzwBPBPKPJdZbcHrdEI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyG8yGLyguUmAB/vMAiLGBTCx6s+G9KsY1XtdzXHMta1F4wI/kYKLsn7PPfav+6ZgcfsDLlmg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:7b83:0:b029:1f1:5ef3:b4d9 with SMTP id w125-20020a627b830000b02901f15ef3b4d9mr6132141pfc.65.1616105712986; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip68-111-231-227.sd.sd.cox.net. [68.111.231.227]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n5sm3375796pfq.44.2021.03.18.15.15.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <3AFA34CC-7A36-4085-A68A-08123D5989EA@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7CEF3AE6-9D1E-417E-ADBB-C2B00D02BD37"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> Cc: manycouches@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Jay Daley References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:15:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7CEF3AE6-9D1E-417E-ADBB-C2B00D02BD37 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been suggested by = multiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned = IETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even = possible. I think it's worth noting that it is likely to happen no matter what. We = developed MeetEcho for remote participation in f2f meetings and enhanced = it for 100% remote meetings. I think as we start to have f2f meetings, = some component of them (we can discuss percentages, but 0< is generally = agreed to, I think), some of us will still be remote - and it will start = out "more remote than local" before it is "more local than remote". --Apple-Mail=_7CEF3AE6-9D1E-417E-ADBB-C2B00D02BD37 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAmBT0O4ACgkQEhdRnd2G P+C51g/9H9YWrs3GLYn8dc2dngI5NiNu+5Bx25CSZmS8UK9AFx6B8I9hi9QzHhkI USvqBs++DasZKkObJCxGmWrPv9uSp+VF1QtuiqijS7SSajQmLVjh4+ay/M3frxV1 NdpD5tFAkdB3S1n8gZUKEXO9SvigNwORE6SBOE1Qwwr6ws90QwP/y0wrurrCmLcL YRtVYrihW51WIXhfF2tjGOrsSp44zumr4Q6Anti2lofxYiNxAwLKoKeZxiKFa9LX eC/QLSVAOW4gA06l8z782eJdy7BgE3Sb4D1hNh1/MaSinxtIBOIndDzRIhAz0W0o oEnmTug62Akbwg9yHzV/zZd/Fs/FNVtdx97/dV2iQpc6qYLHtp20xC/j/gH3cU5k Rx20ZOL+MzLOrjLU1j6UKdMjQFMotwnPa3sBArXudG444YB0W665gcNIjAbIr4Sj SLH3P9qL+MqMPj2PMQOXikZ+SEQATrglx/gkBOaNiGWKv6XR6/cicVDD9B4WYucJ FNA9/g1tIKf0YnKP6u2c9q7U6JZTcjCLPOguX/DKoBS/KdT5JyDXTxjAOEt4VwfF gDUvIZ7tGo32j/k9hclvuIwF2hRzRnspLURbN4I5nQxk+sVl9g62+58gADVvN8nG Q4DQqFWNvQ6PMiZUJ0SYg2p00RoB8VovjQAZiRA1lT9TEVMp4oE= =JQJ/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7CEF3AE6-9D1E-417E-ADBB-C2B00D02BD37-- From nobody Thu Mar 18 15:15:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CA23A0BB8; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36ouip7BrpSq; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x331.google.com (mail-wm1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C7133A0BB2; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id u5-20020a7bcb050000b029010e9316b9d5so4224635wmj.2; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Xw7PWoqO515ogY2mv7Oo2BDDoMJmsBxZDvfNsPixu6M=; b=jUL35eUzKkPLyqGWgVcTHgja57/bGjS3Oao7ao0MGhtOlP+FWuzgkbcSJ27iV1RAtc ljfgWb+zTlFRJhp8VfH1FIcu94QuIc18+fenGiCCkHIU1J7esTdPR7B9obkLq5LXCtZX 3ebxuVRrJW4BrrzgwJPiEk/joxHHBMSq+i9N1Hjev+xoiVrwPw9RBk+9hDA1cDqtaEmD kN3RPCpsjQJs+P4VTcAkm1KVh0PLJ9EsM1LqU7k8PWYJDTRy6gfjMscBS34rs3O35DaM GC3LqQrhm8BGR2eXPhdXuZcyZUdRV1xM55Lm1XYnNuTwRUjPwQmWNsGgPfM3ZC2QOy+t RjKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Xw7PWoqO515ogY2mv7Oo2BDDoMJmsBxZDvfNsPixu6M=; b=O2CdYzXWyGKc9PHszdrrjSDQciEQ4O3RhxAWbmEO1e4o+n9+P/ZPhyxE8onH9uDO+/ EVDYWfAOKcl0v8ySeKJxx/Y/k/5bbpVBYBdWTn8Xz/Ars92u4+dDgGZtMa0le7pbGp3i GWluHhDqrebR3lRdI1TpHs8vqqjhLr4EOIC8xpQ8fcOkedlRG/H+i3Ii/DmebMFjhqtt CgFyYkdGmV5Mxz28o+y5mqsGcGlMpHGEImL1bxC0NAyYUL7M3KQTyBNkXW0chytrYkqz PTuEC+5pj4N/DQgwDM8gVvnWWy0DKIhJpqpDTykE38pDXYQw5mDvmtEjhotOP3h/2/07 ThwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Mnv4wLc465fyfz8Q7oZwYOXJNWt0MYyBOoq8Iy3CODXD4a+77 wW75hXweRWWD0PSr2ssvs6wz/+O0NZI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyc4McILlStKvJ7lpHQHq9RrOaHEEX+tZ8IBkcDpDEUq1LL68nKhqKh1bmOduONtFnoTEaivA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:214d:: with SMTP id v13mr1050457wml.162.1616105732121; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:87d:399f:61bd:d2bc:5fa4? ([2601:647:5a00:87d:399f:61bd:d2bc:5fa4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j26sm4536066wrh.57.2021.03.18.15.15.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B76924C4-1AB5-440A-A7BC-90C1C48AE7DD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:15:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> Cc: Bob Hinden , manycouches@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Jay Daley References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:15:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B76924C4-1AB5-440A-A7BC-90C1C48AE7DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jay, Might be helpful if you define what you mean by a hybrid meeting. Before the pandemic, the IETF has been having meetings were there were a = mix of local and remote participants. Clearly there were many more = local participants, but I think the number of remote participants was = growing. If by Hybrid you mean a mix of local and remote participants, = then we have been doing that for a long time. I suspect we are talking about how to have a meeting when, for example, = half of the participants are remote. Bob > On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been suggested by = multiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned = IETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even = possible. The Secretariat are going to start looking at this with a = view to producing an assessment framework that can be used to determine = if a particular booking can be adjusted to accommodate a hybrid meeting = and what is needed to make that happen. This will be considering lots of = things, including, but not limited to: >=20 > - how big a Secretariat or NOC presence do we need at a minimum? > - what happens if none of the chairs of a session can be present in = the room? > - what would the impact be of any social distancing requirements? > - how does this work with the occupancy rates that we guarantee = contractually (and pay penalties for if they are missed)? >=20 > It is unlikely that this will be ready in time for us to consider IETF = 111 but it should be ready in time for us to consider IETF 112 becoming = a hybrid meeting. >=20 > Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions on other = things to consider. >=20 > Jay >=20 > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --Apple-Mail=_B76924C4-1AB5-440A-A7BC-90C1C48AE7DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmBT0P8ACgkQrut0EXfn u6hgQQf9HfSJwiF9lEoiqaM5ertwFNDQqXYOT2B2ObdvXQRHYM6rqi5+ez06KEOR BYXEW9rPrVXGNDfME+atDtshMG4MZF8KKNPfp75j+FRPee4Q/6Sq1nQbW+AxPlDn S9+C6mNXkmEPYabUThyZsvsjZt38H4URTvFFxpAH3FanUGvzYwlSuznmbH++2G+w REiwHfn4iU96VDo7nW2UQEBEJ9hv9BD+RSNezkoyWis4W4oWA6P814mVLHafZyxi wiL1hzO4CfElvT5Ti1YyKPZOVYT7o20wTlsIqchZCyrUH+h9z9YKBSiHOw1wRHq1 dKZNJzTynIZnp/OkgpIW0WTN8jzHmw== =2syT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B76924C4-1AB5-440A-A7BC-90C1C48AE7DD-- From nobody Thu Mar 18 15:30:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63563A0C32; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:30:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VHztxjFTbrsi; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 835E93A0C30; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:30:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B27F0B74-3837-4AB2-8279-8EFF2E162B7C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:30:20 +1300 In-Reply-To: <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org To: Bob Hinden References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:30:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B27F0B74-3837-4AB2-8279-8EFF2E162B7C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FFC47FC9-09BE-47A3-B6B4-A0396A1F30FA" --Apple-Mail=_FFC47FC9-09BE-47A3-B6B4-A0396A1F30FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 19/03/2021, at 11:15 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Jay, >=20 > Might be helpful if you define what you mean by a hybrid meeting. >=20 > Before the pandemic, the IETF has been having meetings were there were = a mix of local and remote participants. Clearly there were many more = local participants, but I think the number of remote participants was = growing. If by Hybrid you mean a mix of local and remote participants, = then we have been doing that for a long time. >=20 > I suspect we are talking about how to have a meeting when, for = example, half of the participants are remote. Yes, good point. I think many people instinctively understand the = difference but a better definition is necessary. To a degree what = we=E2=80=99re looking at is "how small can we go and still be able to = host/operate a meeting", while leaving the "will enough people attend to = make this worthwhile" decision to the IESG. Jay >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been suggested by = multiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned = IETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even = possible. The Secretariat are going to start looking at this with a = view to producing an assessment framework that can be used to determine = if a particular booking can be adjusted to accommodate a hybrid meeting = and what is needed to make that happen. This will be considering lots of = things, including, but not limited to: >>=20 >> - how big a Secretariat or NOC presence do we need at a minimum? >> - what happens if none of the chairs of a session can be present in = the room? >> - what would the impact be of any social distancing requirements? >> - how does this work with the occupancy rates that we guarantee = contractually (and pay penalties for if they are missed)? >>=20 >> It is unlikely that this will be ready in time for us to consider = IETF 111 but it should be ready in time for us to consider IETF 112 = becoming a hybrid meeting. >>=20 >> Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions on other = things to consider. >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> jay@ietf.org >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >=20 >=20 -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_FFC47FC9-09BE-47A3-B6B4-A0396A1F30FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 19/03/2021, at 11:15 AM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

Signed PGP part
Jay,

Might be = helpful if you define what you mean by a hybrid meeting.
Before the pandemic, the IETF has been having meetings were = there were a mix of local and remote participants.  Clearly there = were many more local participants, but I think the number of remote = participants was growing.  If by Hybrid you mean a mix of local and = remote participants, then we have been doing that for a long time.

I suspect we are talking about how to have a = meeting when, for example, half of the participants are remote.

Yes, good point.  I think many people = instinctively understand the difference but a better definition is = necessary.   To a degree what we=E2=80=99re looking at is "how = small can we go and still be able to host/operate a meeting", while = leaving the "will enough people attend to make this worthwhile" decision = to the IESG.

Jay


Bob



On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:59 = PM, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

As = we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been suggested by = multiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned = IETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even = possible.  The Secretariat are going to start looking at this with = a view to producing an assessment framework that can be used to = determine if a particular booking can be adjusted to accommodate a = hybrid meeting and what is needed to make that happen. This will be = considering lots of things, including, but not limited to:

- how big a Secretariat or NOC presence do we = need at a minimum?
- what happens if none of the chairs of = a session can be present in the room?
- what would the = impact be of any social distancing requirements?
- how = does this work with the occupancy rates that we guarantee contractually = (and pay penalties for if they are missed)?

It is unlikely that this will be ready in time for us to = consider IETF 111 but it should be ready in time for us to consider IETF = 112 becoming a hybrid meeting.

Please let = me know if you have any questions or suggestions on other things to = consider.

Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive = Director
jay@ietf.org

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches


<= /blockquote>

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_FFC47FC9-09BE-47A3-B6B4-A0396A1F30FA-- --Apple-Mail=_B27F0B74-3837-4AB2-8279-8EFF2E162B7C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEteUdwVZRcQwi2bcWICxpEHTRWFMFAmBT1HwACgkQICxpEHTR WFNYDw//V1eUaLXMy8AbggY+pkNithqsxVRbTfc1AXw48HRAmkO3CYQ+2d3AsHvM UPzvuvbXopeKhB7zXJlzUu8/vXpWy2u6bVjOomWZMY6QU5Nd5o4QpiiNKaNlTvBj YKuRC8lN6sTcIMMqybfXseSKH5+oNGSuavADekztYqQsxEl+DyXDJbUDHcmMYfia eboC8xn9QLRvT3Xao+7iL2oMxBdpFwb0x/uG0M2r/B4gMSq2oTHl6Q+Nb/+09x5F V0Ay2x7ShXwf/DZj2A9/Fx2QusTlKZ9ZWVjbpdERNZK7re/59N12a6kQ4HwM9FYS oEvF/6RASGru8pzv/lD9dJFIKfHkGFzBCegLFpncMIUaXfDl/Q7+/MJrDCmMDnQO Vk1yzWRahkd8KUEryZHE+mjk3HhYNNAYUe2R6mUNqdmEHVX/5KHlsXx4F0E3xTB3 x8WHnLCL9XSYeoid/h49IX1IynTJWQOCuw+nOUdb7N5Oi9X55KCW97gI9hifuLCQ JDjp3Cy5W4l+mgizwAjfcjtnI8kS/jJOW7aHQy2gs+0VodnlW+bpnwsJyh0a+4S+ YIWd5yWgFXgSeM1PztirCBADRe7GY799AKK1678bFGJIMjzJb+mgCveKJ2NuEndH mpBlHxzgTA14XQgkYD/TKETLU5XCf6W4fkV027X1dTv2gfcuniQ= =D51p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B27F0B74-3837-4AB2-8279-8EFF2E162B7C-- From nobody Thu Mar 18 15:31:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337AF3A0C43; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fx_CVj5eq35r; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF4B83A0C3B; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:31:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <86FC7D07-FEF0-45AD-A376-6F303A2093C2@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_11C56474-699E-4E0B-B97A-B91EFC87E8FB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:31:23 +1300 In-Reply-To: <3AFA34CC-7A36-4085-A68A-08123D5989EA@gmail.com> Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org To: Fred Baker References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <3AFA34CC-7A36-4085-A68A-08123D5989EA@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:31:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_11C56474-699E-4E0B-B97A-B91EFC87E8FB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_97D61FC1-76F4-456A-B61F-58739045F611" --Apple-Mail=_97D61FC1-76F4-456A-B61F-58739045F611 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 19/03/2021, at 11:15 AM, Fred Baker = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been suggested by = multiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned = IETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even = possible. >=20 > I think it's worth noting that it is likely to happen no matter what. I agree - that=E2=80=99s a distinct possibility. Jay > We developed MeetEcho for remote participation in f2f meetings and = enhanced it for 100% remote meetings. I think as we start to have f2f = meetings, some component of them (we can discuss percentages, but 0< is = generally agreed to, I think), some of us will still be remote - and it = will start out "more remote than local" before it is "more local than = remote". >=20 >=20 >=20 -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_97D61FC1-76F4-456A-B61F-58739045F611 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 19/03/2021, at 11:15 AM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Signed PGP part


On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it = has been suggested by multiple people that we need to consider how we = might switch planned IETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if = that is even possible.

I think = it's worth noting that it is likely to happen no matter what. =

I agree - that=E2=80=99s a distinct = possibility.

Jay

We developed = MeetEcho for remote participation in f2f meetings and enhanced it for = 100% remote meetings. I think as we start to have f2f meetings, some = component of them (we can discuss percentages, but 0< is generally = agreed to, I think), some of us will still be remote - and it will start = out "more remote than local" before it is "more local than remote".






<= /blockquote>

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_97D61FC1-76F4-456A-B61F-58739045F611-- --Apple-Mail=_11C56474-699E-4E0B-B97A-B91EFC87E8FB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEteUdwVZRcQwi2bcWICxpEHTRWFMFAmBT1LsACgkQICxpEHTR WFM97w/+MuZZe/yRnSB4mvpN1Glunwf61peWUgAHgujKdk+rZs++Evp8nvkPG09U HCEfC9qcwOQc0YjD7aTXgz/2fjZP2/SN1RibQMkiQKFymgxlSsrrhhp7bVjhkiZp spEsM5sVeyUERyWpQlGabTrpWZtXMAXWgs3c5Pa4HXUHYZFDTdti5piVtc/GbAo5 0ppylR/NO5+3MFCghdQBij3fmkLJ7g19p7s3yoMwaMPHB7+19rTA5lfiZSyb93XY td4uW/HDtZIpos2xullTimOS/2SIq162VW9R0+0hg3ulI7Swkag8ayTYbw2hXUtj LrEBbNMxuC2RoAbSj9sD3UHdzdLU1LZZfsBlOo+QyBUCKPW7BhCbxByl8NKR7g60 Z3LmWn0wbMugn8Auxp+iAFqNRUAGmVn1RdQo7X6zUZVrlQFxQ2a7nd0JhSM+YTs/ sCJ8wFH6uaCZCSvxFZlNi0nCNannjm8b5XNHEDBNB0/3Lo8ZqZanUIxAEW10YO0C 7wQaxJP1ybtyNsIwM1KXXxSebu2VOo+QV/IFEBB6jp0yHu1D+NqtTHcYqt6TmYYd h2NYZSr/lzEPO53r4lR6BOg+HFC5OZ8szNwjrD0Rc6Kq9/n4RRhv/vb3MI+y8eHy O4kRVuwpoGuTKBO2+uv8zNuTHf1OfiIEWjAum1sbWaHEpG9j2YQ= =tR4F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_11C56474-699E-4E0B-B97A-B91EFC87E8FB-- From nobody Thu Mar 18 15:40:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B04D3A0C98; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:40:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.821 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.821 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MoSM6ekKxJ0M; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 351583A0C93; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1hmg10Ftz6G9Pr; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:40:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1616107203; bh=mmPe2QeKl4XGJD0ntgJLKJXMLvfzjgCBE9vXOge0uP4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=YgYAqv+h45DnBkljRAjVnA2idzokYjt9U/iUMLtEvm8lwuIr16Laik4O23tRAmtvB Wqx7MYhnupogT9Dm+hcjnqXdU991gS08QuCuDTEgQj3dTCwqsffxKjfzZALsloWtnc DycaaKflG9A2kZcYzFnkTXNfqyOp7eeRcKWwXjHU= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F1hmf3yf4z6G7ft; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:40:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Jay Daley Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 18:40:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:40:05 -0000 You asked in your email how we would handle it if the WG chairs for a WG that was meeting couldn't make it. There are multiple answers to that. We even have established practices. One possible approach is to get someone else who is experienced at managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the chairs can do most of the work remotely. This works better now than it did when practiced in the past, with our better remote participation. Yours, Joel From nobody Thu Mar 18 15:54:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1B53A0D48; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:54:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G9mUT25T-fQm; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C18D3A0D62; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F0CBE2C; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:54:15 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VhzD7usZsZUq; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:54:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34025BE1C; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:54:14 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1616108054; bh=UEDuPAVNEq7FiApKzpS8USxHyexdjKvpI5SoWtPXv/E=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UNcahhbdPhTO2g3B1SO8zw/CfX8HbGbKKp0U2R6Kdd/FswrgAnVThyy/1vW7/mLa1 4rMs1+pIkSocAaJYsDElcoaRF4HumI9DIq9IGoIy11waEHmhhdmLPzw2XkJihIjYRi qsRr0oN0TojOsRZNIJnBiHTYQBuEtNkhAgl/dM6U= To: Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:54:13 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8hqDczIFPzykhPeEzzI1Jo281q3MFHxO9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:54:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --8hqDczIFPzykhPeEzzI1Jo281q3MFHxO9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ImSxKvC1xn8s0xMrDjdMa3Hh5AeeqV8BL"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Hybrid IETF meetings References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> --ImSxKvC1xn8s0xMrDjdMa3Hh5AeeqV8BL Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------79026D2592AB48D16035400D" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------79026D2592AB48D16035400D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good that this is being considered. On 18/03/2021 21:59, Jay Daley wrote: > Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions on other th= ings to consider. - I suggest being explicit about however we justify whatever balance is set between in-person meeting fees (incl. coffee/cookies etc) vs. any remote fee. - Generous special handling for last minute changes to travel restrictions or other pandemic-related last-minute reasons to not attend f2f might encourage people to register for f2f attendance? Not sure but maybe think about it. - Pay extra attention to allowing f2f attendees time and space to chat/socialise e.g. maybe try figure a way to have a social that can scale up or down some as needed - I think the next f2f social may be one of the more important ones to get right fwiw. - Ask the IESG to consider different styles of agenda for a few different scenarios, e.g. it could be with say 400 f2f attendees where a lot are relatively local my ideal agenda for the week might work (hackathon until 1400 local, meeting sessions 'till 1800 then back to hackathon and socialising:-), or, maybe a 4 day agenda would make sense or something - basically, the secretariat could give the IESG options to consider based on other events and see if one or more of those look good. - Spend a bit of time thinking about how to handle all the usual non-WG meetings e.g. wgchairs, secdir-lunch etc. Maybe a load of those would be just fine still being done online a week ahead or a week after. 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[68.111.231.227]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q15sm3706783pje.28.2021.03.18.15.59.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:59:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6ACF4F1F-90EE-4CF5-9A4A-A30AA026D326 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:59:57 -0700 Message-Id: <9BC908C5-EAEC-48BE-834F-EAEF72CA464E@gmail.com> References: Cc: Bob Hinden , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18E5140k) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:00:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail-6ACF4F1F-90EE-4CF5-9A4A-A30AA026D326 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suspect that interim meetings tell us that we can go as small as one perso= n (the chair) being =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D for some definition of that, and= everyone else being remote. The extension might be that, in an appropriate= facility (maybe a hotel), =E2=80=9Cthe chairs=E2=80=9D could be local and t= he working group participants remote. The rest (does it make sense to rent a= room if only N people in addition to the chair will be there?) is a judgeme= nt call. Maybe the place to start would be shared interim meetings (meetings of an ar= ea?) in a common location. Sent from my iPad > On Mar 18, 2021, at 3:30 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >>> On 19/03/2021, at 11:15 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>>=20 >>> Signed PGP part >>> Jay, >>>=20 >>> Might be helpful if you define what you mean by a hybrid meeting. >>>=20 >>> Before the pandemic, the IETF has been having meetings were there were a= mix of local and remote participants. Clearly there were many more local p= articipants, but I think the number of remote participants was growing. If b= y Hybrid you mean a mix of local and remote participants, then we have been d= oing that for a long time. >>>=20 >>> I suspect we are talking about how to have a meeting when, for example, h= alf of the participants are remote. >>=20 >> Yes, good point. I think many people instinctively understand the differ= ence but a better definition is necessary. To a degree what we=E2=80=99re l= ooking at is "how small can we go and still be able to host/operate a meetin= g", while leaving the "will enough people attend to make this worthwhile" de= cision to the IESG. >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >>=20 >> Bob >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>>=20 >>> As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been suggested by mul= tiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned IETF meeti= ngs to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even possible. The Secret= ariat are going to start looking at this with a view to producing an assessm= ent framework that can be used to determine if a particular booking can be a= djusted to accommodate a hybrid meeting and what is needed to make that happ= en. This will be considering lots of things, including, but not limited to: >>>=20 >>> - how big a Secretariat or NOC presence do we need at a minimum? >>> - what happens if none of the chairs of a session can be present in the r= oom? >>> - what would the impact be of any social distancing requirements? >>> - how does this work with the occupancy rates that we guarantee contract= ually (and pay penalties for if they are missed)? >>>=20 >>> It is unlikely that this will be ready in time for us to consider IETF 1= 11 but it should be ready in time for us to consider IETF 112 becoming a hyb= rid meeting. >>>=20 >>> Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions on other thi= ngs to consider. >>>=20 >>> Jay >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Jay Daley >>> IETF Executive Director >>> jay@ietf.org >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --Apple-Mail-6ACF4F1F-90EE-4CF5-9A4A-A30AA026D326 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suspect that interim meetings tell us tha= t we can go as small as one person (the chair) being =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D= for some definition of that, and everyone else being remote.  The exte= nsion might be that, in an appropriate facility (maybe a hotel), =E2=80=9Cth= e chairs=E2=80=9D could be local and the working group participants remote. T= he rest (does it make sense to rent a room if only N people in addition to t= he chair will be there?) is a judgement call.

Maybe the p= lace to start would be shared interim meetings (meetings of an area?) in a c= ommon location.

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 18, 2021, at 3:30 PM, Jay Daley <= ;jay@ietf.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

On 19/03/2021, at 11:15 AM, Bob Hinden <= ;bob.hinden@gmail.com= > wrote:

Signed PGP part
Jay,

Might be helpful if you= define what you mean by a hybrid meeting.

Befo= re the pandemic, the IETF has been having meetings were there were a mix of l= ocal and remote participants.  Clearly there were many more local parti= cipants, but I think the number of remote participants was growing.  If= by Hybrid you mean a mix of local and remote participants, then we have bee= n doing that for a long time.

I suspect we are t= alking about how to have a meeting when, for example, half of the participan= ts are remote.

Yes, good point.  I think many people instin= ctively understand the difference but a better definition is necessary. &nbs= p; To a degree what we=E2=80=99re looking at is "how small can we go and sti= ll be able to host/operate a meeting", while leaving the "will enough people= attend to make this worthwhile" decision to the IESG.

Jay

<= div class=3D"">

= Bob



On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:59 PM, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
<= br class=3D"">As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been sugges= ted by multiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned I= ETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even possible. &n= bsp;The Secretariat are going to start looking at this with a view to produc= ing an assessment framework that can be used to determine if a particular bo= oking can be adjusted to accommodate a hybrid meeting and what is needed to m= ake that happen. This will be considering lots of things, including, but not= limited to:

- how big a Secretariat or NOC pre= sence do we need at a minimum?
- what happens if none of the c= hairs of a session can be present in the room?
- what would th= e impact be of any social distancing requirements?
- how does t= his work with the occupancy rates that we guarantee contractually (and pay p= enalties for if they are missed)?

It is unlikel= y that this will be ready in time for us to consider IETF 111 but it should b= e ready in time for us to consider IETF 112 becoming a hybrid meeting.

Please let me know if you have any questions or sugg= estions on other things to consider.

Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executi= ve Director
jay@iet= f.org

_____________________________________= __________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches



-- 
Jay Da= ley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

_______________________________________________<= br>Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
= --Apple-Mail-6ACF4F1F-90EE-4CF5-9A4A-A30AA026D326-- From nobody Thu Mar 18 20:03:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A6C3A0CC0; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:03:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36ZVEzr8jAtK; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 789B83A0CBE; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id w8so3935024pjf.4; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:03:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5xhHhrGdyxlNg+LQcILLY2CwkGQJn18ycI+pQnB3XOg=; b=NqKrS4pDtUb+L3ovcz+fLHTBJUUtvjo569dcmOMJcVUI15TGdccyQKE438CjTIHsDN LCfBflRUiakNElKnT0RtKAf0lFhz1P4vWTcevKv5nhIOZlAI/irp5s/ySQrClI2EGZDh 0KlDYFTN/UpvudAiaYNM+SBNJ8CgdbljLFvFvSlfL5MR8Y6OfFNoiIzw32Y2dwbdLk7b iw9ke+dU18hKa1jOQMApfoTz7CiJq+UvVZULo3qjVHBwU7oEtL+fOOwgyHpPmQcJ1A49 1u768aGLUukDKInJvvcsEUn55/IjQ3axyd7W6qzrn5YPH+WFnmbQcKc06g2pa/Zp+jOX ku6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5xhHhrGdyxlNg+LQcILLY2CwkGQJn18ycI+pQnB3XOg=; b=LPxHbYwxka0zcttvY4nzMXL9bQit3M0UxV1p2m3xK9P24MDG5oql3ZEF5ISNun0Mqj L/+905OWXKQQeh8gLup4fNqkl2VijXPZZpqS8Bn7Mc5wBMwriGcxFQszcLpVtZplNMYJ rAuHU0W/D12a+wtpZmgJqIsOSeuzYirh0A2Kky3Zkt1PPRM/5zOsGmcN6DyaOGw+TWY2 gq11eBH/sPywN4SsgdsE2iTtdPajdi8CXM8HRjZ4sVjI48a9nHC1kWtGHCjvz5cunIa3 OfZIV/zF8/9VcViS+o+DBOEJTac5zrQSTOEQFBATFay7LHpRtC6V0ytS22LE6w86uNVq mCxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533qyL2/FO+DPQaLwXvd5YhM+4SH3lSACK2gnPqTgvh3eX7Kccrs fle3yO+BBpXTv2tD7pEXck9THr+iE7IGjQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxoIUTjnrfCkE2KINjwJ15NMOMqur0f20lOr1TXIJIS4bKYUT+tFQLAUT/sEKcOXOEGPDRWiQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:eb4a:b029:e5:e7d0:5aa with SMTP id i10-20020a170902eb4ab02900e5e7d005aamr12420318pli.3.1616122990912; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o1sm3647321pjp.4.2021.03.18.20.03.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:03:10 -0700 (PDT) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Jay Daley Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:03:06 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 03:03:15 -0000 On 19-Mar-21 11:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > You asked in your email how we would handle it if the WG chairs for a WG > that was meeting couldn't make it. > > There are multiple answers to that. We even have established practices. > One possible approach is to get someone else who is experienced at > managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the chairs can do most > of the work remotely. This works better now than it did when practiced > in the past, with our better remote participation. I'm no expert in this but I understand that what we lack in Meetecho is what is known in the trade as remote "floor control," which both WebEx and Zoom have. So I think Jay's second question needs a sub-question: - what are the minimum technical requirements for effective remote chairing? Brian From nobody Thu Mar 18 21:16:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2888E3A0FCD; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xOJQefl52Twk; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9F9D3A0FCB; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1rDX4DMCz1nv7d; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:16:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1616127372; bh=59iwspE0JaI7umx3YGISxiVlr61WDeQw2XdkGX9n6X4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=dC8Sxaos7rahV66qLuBeeigb97vdvP3n+gC7zEuXuRtSt633YycVAnuSdXL0NWd8X ESRD+oXsbOS0No6LSRZxfP7Iu4dNXH3ZBIJrW2ILQBweA4PJ65lh21yNrEqaI854WM BXUObNMmaVwlLggQ0WVDiKfojzedu0i00vXV6yl4= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F1rDW6K7Rz1ntMb; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:16:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 00:16:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 04:16:14 -0000 Brian, I don't think that is the important part of the quesiton. I suspect the difference in our views lies in the assumptions we make. So I will try to spell out my assumptions. I assume we want to enable remote or local presenters, remote or local chairs, and remote or local questioners. There is one more assumption I make that I think is important and which others may disagree with. I assume that we want in room quesitoners to be interacting directly with the presenter and each other; not having their laptops on meetecho, queueing in meetecho, and speaking into their microphones to ask questions. given the assumption of live in room discussion (with queue / microphone management to give full access to remote participants as well), it seems to me that queue management has to be done by an in-room person. That can be either the chairs or a proxy for the chairs. If we have that, then it seems that meetecho seems likely to need only minor adjustments (if any at all) to meeet our needs in the narrow dimension of chairing / presenting. Yours, Joel On 3/18/2021 11:03 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 19-Mar-21 11:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> You asked in your email how we would handle it if the WG chairs for a WG >> that was meeting couldn't make it. >> >> There are multiple answers to that. We even have established practices. >> One possible approach is to get someone else who is experienced at >> managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the chairs can do most >> of the work remotely. This works better now than it did when practiced >> in the past, with our better remote participation. > > I'm no expert in this but I understand that what we lack in Meetecho is what > is known in the trade as remote "floor control," which both WebEx and Zoom have. > So I think Jay's second question needs a sub-question: > - what are the minimum technical requirements for effective remote chairing? > > Brian > From nobody Thu Mar 18 21:23:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80D93A1008; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:23:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.001, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XTsuWHpM8KVH; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82F3B3A1007; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macbook-pro.localdomain (mta-70-120-133-87.satx.rr.com [70.120.133.87] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 12J4NNOb045252 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:23:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1616127805; bh=cQaSWd2CTp9zy3Nyw2P5WqMiATLjBAAew1aTzbUYvbQ=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=ktDasW539ZbbIcnQchmEV+L5rBRi0K0t5tLFWpl3F/ewNSiGwu5RROjT9p7w9SRGn aAYW6eZdmdjDBwCR5wyytzLJHCDi2yuYOCtZpp8xgvo2Ub18gLj5OBbm8jw6P74JJs Fan6k0WWdLZymoCCDPa2w9TOolExgwIzygEjEsVU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-133-87.satx.rr.com [70.120.133.87] (may be forged) claimed to be macbook-pro.localdomain Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:23:17 -0500 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 04:23:38 -0000 > On Mar 18, 2021, at 11:16 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > Brian, I don't think that is the important part of the quesiton. > I suspect the difference in our views lies in the assumptions we make. = So I will try to spell out my assumptions. >=20 > I assume we want to enable remote or local presenters, remote or local = chairs, and remote or local questioners. > There is one more assumption I make that I think is important and = which others may disagree with. I assume that we want in room = quesitoners to be interacting directly with the presenter and each = other; not having their laptops on meetecho, queueing in meetecho, and = speaking into their microphones to ask questions. Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical tool that = let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on their phones) = but otherwise interact locally be a problem?=20 Thanks, Ben. >=20 > given the assumption of live in room discussion (with queue / = microphone management to give full access to remote participants as = well), it seems to me that queue management has to be done by an in-room = person. That can be either the chairs or a proxy for the chairs. >=20 > If we have that, then it seems that meetecho seems likely to need only = minor adjustments (if any at all) to meeet our needs in the narrow = dimension of chairing / presenting. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 3/18/2021 11:03 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 19-Mar-21 11:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> You asked in your email how we would handle it if the WG chairs for = a WG >>> that was meeting couldn't make it. >>>=20 >>> There are multiple answers to that. We even have established = practices. >>> One possible approach is to get someone else who is experienced at >>> managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the chairs can do = most >>> of the work remotely. This works better now than it did when = practiced >>> in the past, with our better remote participation. >> I'm no expert in this but I understand that what we lack in Meetecho = is what >> is known in the trade as remote "floor control," which both WebEx and = Zoom have. >> So I think Jay's second question needs a sub-question: >> - what are the minimum technical requirements for effective remote = chairing? >> Brian >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Thu Mar 18 23:00:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD923A132E; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:00:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JWx6uidWbGJ0; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01F153A132D; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id bt4so4105419pjb.5; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:00:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=K+3g8RrQXXg0g/GYOG8D8w3OBcgnSIxahDnggzBR+kU=; b=aYb4y2HcuUR/UbG7HzzevyiLZhWzUYFRvrhBhKL6iiW63KPC5QgiepH2sb3t+2n9hh Hz2jpCPHMDyFbCgQNT7DmyuVpRxg0BI3E66dutEO2Qu82xHVOTeFVGV6l6Bn2o/1GysL 8LjR7/jEELqmzoOYEnjzMyvNJIsNl62xg7CHO0d2oaRrbJfI+c5WTXWGrsRH3ZWwZ+64 NbbGP36b8ljW5as1MwCKC2+Zk9k1uhfOEQ/Fu9JX/lr4x48hIoSVU0SOjsKOArVBeaz8 3b2BNhL0mShldYFBkC9VBzrp2XMJruey2wSUcBGP+YQC9+DmuhiJEZRbzIYzXGVr+51j zqqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=K+3g8RrQXXg0g/GYOG8D8w3OBcgnSIxahDnggzBR+kU=; b=qOs4OmPorDPYexuTvcAiRcpRNaz7tUc3xXJFXi+al1IepOeOqcDzzMl5+WcWvX/6GT r3RJkxlJihtElxFfYETXcYNEQOblHRHy/sA9H591NBUBW1aKlT1PD/ZYxGTf1MVevnfY vN2Z7MXdYN+gBYQKSun5wovH4U4d1YMDs8j0L/PT1uIbLrYoR4psBTfX58XeYuSQrCH1 mQR2E/7t+OH01y6yVZbM6e4Aa9edau6kBNgS++ni0uMT5zJiuCIWnz+oe7G7OZzCZIVR aaZGyoCEONfkp5nVIMytth+PdHrI9MVJlzDQQfK+pQCuzzwzingTTfhjvo6MTr8sJJuc FHcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532SYV0FSq6LG0Lgd9KnBpIDpkCMKoWTLnyyZNxLnqVJDPHfBDgo 8KzbzAG555d60N2NZeFRtJM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTT8AUPO453FOLpSE1I1p9x/kf9BjFu0qeTuldjzB0Wh1WMak0Q4gg4sInwnTRXZdvdqqw/g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b63:: with SMTP id 90mr8231005pjq.124.1616133636385; Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip68-111-231-227.sd.sd.cox.net. [68.111.231.227]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e190sm4177632pfh.115.2021.03.18.23.00.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:00:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C98B6945-4B3E-4CF0-88B7-2BA58B301763"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 23:00:33 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org To: Ben Campbell References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:00:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C98B6945-4B3E-4CF0-88B7-2BA58B301763 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical tool that = let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on their phones) = but otherwise interact locally be a problem? I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to be = active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in = MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual queue. = =46rom a chairing perspective, I think that could work by having people = join the queue online at will, and maintain a relatively short line at = the physical mike. That depends, of course, on people speaking when = recognized, which may differ from the usual mechanism of speaking when = you filter to the front of the line. It might actually help integrate = the physical and virtual worlds. --Apple-Mail=_C98B6945-4B3E-4CF0-88B7-2BA58B301763 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAmBUPgEACgkQEhdRnd2G P+CYGA/5AfV2dzkDzjfY6V9ZO7t2rzyuZn84QAaYvaBjHvB8QmgwWyrBzHZb+XhN iM41d1dqkrjf5fw1qiPDTD4B+HC7iorgO2ougia2jOBbnSFxow13EWRNpIouDF2m aNk7ZAr0L0bhllbw+To4etd3B4WtaQkl5ZO4upvpCb0Whi+JajuWgKFeWtf9sboe NZaxaE+QaQBF7P/uHWx0Cxm8IGR3/vGvFnH7MuisMMARd1yVuPyV926tGynEbCgP SpGHsf8uBGDlcYgqbHlztqBg/2QOMrQEoEzk1+OpwuSzu/Xkvq/cPeemfckC4mlB ZFQewgdBI4/QZTru/Nv4Ov2ifnydVY0qkzc8lEvAvnpBKmwA6QGI+tGH41Nqudqe dR2OAX898NrpJ8OJ0DSJQjya2YObl+AV6if6bnx5TN0OwjugvoURa0pQ3kwt3o5T +gRYtmHSx5pWgZGfEzNxXpqJjrTd0jBEdSdsaspEguSlS8xzUCC0EVtS6hlBp+s4 LpmdoOxXPJ1362D4ZhIfLR8K5lWBSqhcuo0cNkw0FV4NJhxlApwub6JfTkI3Jm+w ZJSmEX0j12mwL1bOPqRYDPuz6chItZpGB5wN89j9dFkYTP9OKIhfGDFXr0RiRfsM 0ka5ueBbnURHLD0TYRH0iInnL1QEahW52CHI3bWY8lXKvuR/LvI= =bDpW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C98B6945-4B3E-4CF0-88B7-2BA58B301763-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 06:46:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04FBC3A14D8; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X8zACvVU-st3; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B601A3A1413; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC95C548066; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:45:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id D48E8440166; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:45:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:45:44 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Jay Daley Cc: manycouches@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210319134544.GN8957@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:45:54 -0000 One related question: Which group/mailing-list would discuss whether or not one would want to spend actual IETF money on any type of in-person organization when the hosting country has exclusionary travel policies. Such as still the USA... To answer your question. I think if we want a real "hybrid" IETF meeting, then we need to take more care of making remote participation relatively better to local than with the setups we have today. I also think that IETF could save a lot of local setup money going that way. So, here is a possible "minimum" that is optimized to maximize the quality of participation for remote participants while simultaneously minimizing the local setup costs, and i am going to stick just to meeting rooms, all the other improvements IMHO are secondary: - everybody in the room is expected to have a notebook and a headset and use meetecho. - Conference audio is ONLY passed via those headset, there is no "room audio". - There is no in-person microphone line, but just the virtual line in meetecho, whether one is in-person or remote - managing the meeting & microphone line can be done by chairs whether they are local or remote - Projection is totally optional and could be self-organized by one participant on her notebook. - Aka: There is NO IETF supported room setup requirements other than: - for every participant seat and table and power and ROCK SOLID wifi. ("rock solid" is also welcome for seats and tables ;-) - Depending on number of local attendants, room layout could be optimized, aka: a circle would be preferrable for meetings with <= 20 people local. If we do not go to per-participant audio, we are just going to continue to integrte remote participants as second class citizens. I think there are a couple of improvements that may be needed to support this best in meeetecho, such as the threshold based switching on/off of audio sources, because there will likely be crosstalk from a speaker to the microphones of other local participants to the left/right who may not have well actively muted their microphones, but IMHO that's all software. I also would like to see more promotion of participant video in meetecho, but it did result in a lot of bad CPU usage during 110, aka: something in the way metecho uses browser video is in dire need of optimization. Aka: If we had 111 hybrid, and the meetecho team could be all-hands-on-deck, hen we should be able to work out the quirks for this hybrid model. Hope thats a good starting point for discussion, especially for manycouches. Chers Toerless On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 10:59:00AM +1300, Jay Daley wrote: > As we approach a new phase of the pandemic, it has been suggested by multiple people that we need to consider how we might switch planned IETF meetings to some form of hybrid meeting, or if that is even possible. The Secretariat are going to start looking at this with a view to producing an assessment framework that can be used to determine if a particular booking can be adjusted to accommodate a hybrid meeting and what is needed to make that happen. This will be considering lots of things, including, but not limited to: > > - how big a Secretariat or NOC presence do we need at a minimum? > - what happens if none of the chairs of a session can be present in the room? > - what would the impact be of any social distancing requirements? > - how does this work with the occupancy rates that we guarantee contractually (and pay penalties for if they are missed)? > > It is unlikely that this will be ready in time for us to consider IETF 111 but it should be ready in time for us to consider IETF 112 becoming a hybrid meeting. > > Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions on other things to consider. > > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Mar 19 06:47:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27F53A1507; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vRqV-dzP0qbc; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51B123A14FE; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F24vK5wJ9z1nvgY; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:47:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1616161629; bh=/1jvFBwaiq/C1v9yBdqlCX+S8xKF09uHu/Dty9exhi4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Mr2eXjK+a8taynr/HaJ0ocZgrrgA2fypz66tFdpVc4YP9mjIwPvj4fAzJgpCtB+UE QuyDUgUHAUQqpUZfgfJrDqjJwsI6sSRB+TOwhopBBOAiH8xGrNNH3K/vABQBPeiGYR xA9v5Ijksk2Ea2MYJ3+kYylBdWquhxIcf1s76lTU= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F24vK0x28z1nvgK; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:47:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Ben Campbell Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:47:08 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:47:12 -0000 My personal take is that requiring a phone app interaction to get on the mike line is probably currently not reasonable. It may be a reasonable longer term goal. 9and maybe we should be focused on what the longer temr looks like first.) I want to make sure the in room itneraction remains effective, and that the remote interaction works. Too much friction could kill both. Yours, Joel On 3/19/2021 12:23 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > >> On Mar 18, 2021, at 11:16 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> Brian, I don't think that is the important part of the quesiton. >> I suspect the difference in our views lies in the assumptions we make. So I will try to spell out my assumptions. >> >> I assume we want to enable remote or local presenters, remote or local chairs, and remote or local questioners. >> There is one more assumption I make that I think is important and which others may disagree with. I assume that we want in room quesitoners to be interacting directly with the presenter and each other; not having their laptops on meetecho, queueing in meetecho, and speaking into their microphones to ask questions. > > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical tool that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on their phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? > > Thanks, > > Ben. > > >> >> given the assumption of live in room discussion (with queue / microphone management to give full access to remote participants as well), it seems to me that queue management has to be done by an in-room person. That can be either the chairs or a proxy for the chairs. >> >> If we have that, then it seems that meetecho seems likely to need only minor adjustments (if any at all) to meeet our needs in the narrow dimension of chairing / presenting. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 3/18/2021 11:03 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 19-Mar-21 11:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>> You asked in your email how we would handle it if the WG chairs for a WG >>>> that was meeting couldn't make it. >>>> >>>> There are multiple answers to that. We even have established practices. >>>> One possible approach is to get someone else who is experienced at >>>> managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the chairs can do most >>>> of the work remotely. This works better now than it did when practiced >>>> in the past, with our better remote participation. >>> I'm no expert in this but I understand that what we lack in Meetecho is what >>> is known in the trade as remote "floor control," which both WebEx and Zoom have. >>> So I think Jay's second question needs a sub-question: >>> - what are the minimum technical requirements for effective remote chairing? >>> Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > From nobody Fri Mar 19 07:03:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0166E3A15EF; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:03:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F8E9dtROb2rv; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 979033A15ED; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70993BE50; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:03:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XxJUN67vxEnM; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:03:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.242] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A5815BE2F; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:03:02 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1616162582; bh=F1LfNJaH2w8Z8Ctn2soBnNAfpMfKYEdugLCBDiwp/f4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=R9eIbWPGK0mpmB3rxdNdR/5WyvguCBTvSpVgQjIadrgdGVd8B0ywVyjjQ9XeMYM1t 9Kek5CKlatI0Cm31Z9uaBp32A0KlFV0bMVh+gdQM7RmzgCkZUQi/yHQRilsQ47TQLY xomlB0v2VYecaHrb/3x9fKouPE/II8mkL6nsPve4= To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Ben Campbell Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <4365f8bf-5788-954e-a758-ac622a02771e@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:03:01 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZpesLzHxIjuTy4EFsKGBGmx2sp5DXMITn" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:03:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ZpesLzHxIjuTy4EFsKGBGmx2sp5DXMITn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ceYuAieSOxKdX8sYSp152oCV6Hklk5sUE"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Ben Campbell Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <4365f8bf-5788-954e-a758-ac622a02771e@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [admin-discuss] Hybrid IETF meetings References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> --ceYuAieSOxKdX8sYSp152oCV6Hklk5sUE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F5D0BAAA82AE61193E3176D6" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F5D0BAAA82AE61193E3176D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, Broadening your point somewhat... On 19/03/2021 13:47, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > My personal take is that requiring a phone app=20 =2E.. is unreasonable, full stop. There needs to be another way (via web or manually) for achieving the same thing. We ought not be complicit in re-enforcing the current mobile duopoly. For example, my main phone runs neither of the most popular mobile OSes. Having phone apps is fine. Requiring them is not. 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Ben Campbell Message-Id: <17115E04-7DBB-45C4-B55B-0AC23A0B6D8C@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_26079036-925D-4F91-8A8A-AE10368B22E2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:34:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org To: Fred Baker References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:34:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_26079036-925D-4F91-8A8A-AE10368B22E2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 19, 2021, at 1:00 AM, Fred Baker = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>=20 >> Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical tool = that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on their = phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? >=20 > I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to be = active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in = MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual queue. = =46rom a chairing perspective, I think that could work by having people = join the queue online at will, and maintain a relatively short line at = the physical mike. That depends, of course, on people speaking when = recognized, which may differ from the usual mechanism of speaking when = you filter to the front of the line. It might actually help integrate = the physical and virtual worlds. That=E2=80=99s sort of what I was thinking=E2=80=94speak when = recognized. --Apple-Mail=_26079036-925D-4F91-8A8A-AE10368B22E2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAmBUtmIACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1ZkxAApb7V9bqiDgaOpkgxxF3Gx4ojkLUsfItPVrJFccATOUUMmFz0MFzUAqGJ vqWh0avfm1jz47drUnhTfSyTopGbyFfYDRkiPPNtpzh2pP4CLr5y7st+GJfoNpYp DWte1jhZoW1JjENJt3hWp4OCQlzmnCGDss2JEzzoJLp5RdEbKG8BiDKmWpta5luB hExrcdXtV3WE+LD5eKJGI7D1oyfyzdWGGm9+B8AA8TwHvzNZ2NY1g02MWx9nrYSl Yt+flR5YJw9Ha5h3oQUGyhP/V3AJ2fYULT5rbbRe7jEKq1Ed22v5eq8757G1dSCD CIZfZDX551coAwnEsLQ2N7zqo48q8Cmb1x0cn4QmTq5x4jnarTIG9FfWUOb7FIYe T7OTIVGv9prAV6Uj3VbG5sXpFhcoMjItyEhehME5jyaI/OzJvrgng+AlgHulaZ1H xRerMS6qDsJ8CHA9KEInxwq0GDWYKfyALVtRfwETgPc5lq4jWV934fks3RcZxiTU XfaLQfnfMAZgYGYT0ziqxciBSE7pxS++neKgp5NzlgT/oxFNBE8RuVRzK3aL21KR WPk4EIdl7Akhd3QKGJWmH66+d5OAVJqGjNPcC8ZTxYt0IFyDr9akqiy6XKEqaMVE Si1mxgh/E7hJ1XA9AWk77lTRxfxgnHmpqiSn4irkXr8PI91Xt+E= =Mjjr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_26079036-925D-4F91-8A8A-AE10368B22E2-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 07:40:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E220E3A16A1; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:40:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.001, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbCW4cVrdU2A; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04E923A16B6; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macbook-pro.localdomain (mta-70-120-133-87.satx.rr.com [70.120.133.87] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 12JEeeMg083716 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:40:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1616164842; bh=dOFZSrBYvAdT/nt/TwX63vLTvZ098xLUexIbiqBf2RA=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=vvsXAV05/A2hn4M2ZLmq4nRTfCMaX0nCKl6GaCCh8evf+TPSIZSIPe7ahfMsFcYWg qC0Jlb6kZRjmppLIaNq84Ez0pCtklZmNTVuQ7YFJT1MV44QlKax/DWwuiH3l89I/82 H2kWJHbHHccTC7kvTO3lJbdDBkroSU4DcHNSmPes= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-133-87.satx.rr.com [70.120.133.87] (may be forged) claimed to be macbook-pro.localdomain Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:40:35 -0500 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:40:56 -0000 > On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > My personal take is that requiring a phone app interaction to get on = the mike line is probably currently not reasonable. It may be a = reasonable longer term goal. 9and maybe we should be focused on what = the longer temr looks like first.) I want to make sure the in room = itneraction remains effective, and that the remote interaction works. = Too much friction could kill both. >=20 Do you think a phone app is unreasonable because it would be high = friction to interact with your phone to add yourself to the queue? Or = that it would simply take time to develop and refine (and possibly = distribute depending on whether we are talking app or web page) such a = tool? In the interim, chairs might could designate a queue manager to sort = things between the physical and virtual queues. But I suspect hilarity = would ensue :-) Ben.= From nobody Fri Mar 19 07:47:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC223A1702; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:46:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7tg5i7ayIFpA; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9883A16FD; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:46:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1616165212; x=1616770012; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=2LgcNcwYpwURFYcn/O+rCuPEMkS30DafAOVoz8xAkgE=; b=dDAhFy5lMOpzQ HezKfq4LV9iPXwMCRKsWlL1ilA2c0KCiLWwlpCQcpZpdixItWiaIUItcDmUH48+O OOf62hG4Q1Mr3HQ7XZyOohHjWOhyew81OOSVldA2j3vWglp1Q0uIxYS+QR/YZdsT 8rPN5K+/t1AzOmabBefJp9eRQuKtdY= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:46:52 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:46:50 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.145] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50000552161.msg; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:46:49 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:25e4:eda1:f040:9b4d X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.145] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:46:49 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1712d3905e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.47.21031401 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:46:44 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: CC: Message-ID: <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] [admin-discuss] Hybrid IETF meetings References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:46:58 -0000 Many years ago, I suggested that the mic is no longer needed if everybody h= as a device with a mic. I still think that speakers in the room are needed,= but there may be problems with echo cancelation, etc. However, enforcing "only" to be usable via a phone is clearly discriminator= y. Not everyone has a smartphone, or even having it, is not corporate, and = may not like to use business apps in a personal phone, or in the other way = around, you may have a corporate smartphone (or laptop) that doesn't allow = you to use apps not tested and authorized by your employer. So, it must be a way to use just a web browser, without special "permission= s" in the device to use that "virtual" mic (and may be speakers, camera, et= c.). I think this is what we already have with Meetecho, just need some mod= s in the UI, so if you're local, you don't need to see the slides on the de= vice. =20 Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 19/3/21 15:41, "Manycouches en nombre de Ben Campbell" escribi=C3=B3: > On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern wr= ote: >=20 > My personal take is that requiring a phone app interaction to get on = the mike line is probably currently not reasonable. It may be a reasonable= longer term goal. 9and maybe we should be focused on what the longer temr= looks like first.) I want to make sure the in room itneraction remains ef= fective, and that the remote interaction works. Too much friction could ki= ll both. >=20 Do you think a phone app is unreasonable because it would be high frict= ion to interact with your phone to add yourself to the queue? Or that it wo= uld simply take time to develop and refine (and possibly distribute dependi= ng on whether we are talking app or web page) such a tool? In the interim, chairs might could designate a queue manager to sort th= ings between the physical and virtual queues. But I suspect hilarity would = ensue :-) Ben. _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Mar 19 08:00:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B093A1804; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:00:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MzkkHtTll0r1; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C847C3A17FA; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macbook-pro.localdomain (mta-70-120-133-87.satx.rr.com [70.120.133.87] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 12JF0UbD088093 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:00:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1616166033; bh=ugaCUjVc1fnt+y7KXNQmJs4j3E45UnhamNgipH9Z/Cw=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=cmQVj1mn6XYQ6nR8+eNvOKZCjG4Lw87nkovhHmh76IIjpf+vkeMwBhNE4YpQe5t8s kxVkLYS4qqg4dk+bnwOcH6JsvJuW8PsRqPsv+dHddtv2Bv0PmyOgfShl2vithq0aRs 1rUFPZmD9OCrVNd5B6qeVd0wd51nCmwaBNUi7AXo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-133-87.satx.rr.com [70.120.133.87] (may be forged) claimed to be macbook-pro.localdomain Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:00:25 -0500 Cc: manycouches@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:00:37 -0000 > On Mar 19, 2021, at 9:46 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >=20 > Many years ago, I suggested that the mic is no longer needed if = everybody has a device with a mic. I still think that speakers in the = room are needed, but there may be problems with echo cancelation, etc. >=20 > However, enforcing "only" to be usable via a phone is clearly = discriminatory. Not everyone has a smartphone, or even having it, is not = corporate, and may not like to use business apps in a personal phone, or = in the other way around, you may have a corporate smartphone (or laptop) = that doesn't allow you to use apps not tested and authorized by your = employer. >=20 > So, it must be a way to use just a web browser, without special = "permissions" in the device to use that "virtual" mic (and may be = speakers, camera, etc.). I think this is what we already have with = Meetecho, just need some mods in the UI, so if you're local, you don't = need to see the slides on the device. To be clear, I was not contemplating a virtual mike, just a virtual = queue mechanism. Ben.= From nobody Fri Mar 19 08:07:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04DA3A1857; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:07:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cr9hgCYCOm_d; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC2113A181C; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BC6548056; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:07:02 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 3F697440166; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:07:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:07:02 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210319150702.GO8957@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:07:24 -0000 On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 12:16:11AM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > There is one more assumption I make that I think is important and which > others may disagree with. I assume that we want in room quesitoners to be > interacting directly with the presenter and each other; not having their > laptops on meetecho, queueing in meetecho, and speaking into their > microphones to ask questions. Yepp. I disagree with that assumption becaus i have seen this approach be the core aspect that is penalizing remote participants. And i also don't want to have to rely on folks having to resort to yelling "microphone" for floor control. See my original mail to this thread. And yes, it makes local participation somewhat less "nice", but thats unfortunately the price of evening out the hybrid experience > given the assumption of live in room discussion (with queue / microphone > management to give full access to remote participants as well), it seems to > me that queue management has to be done by an in-room person. That can be > either the chairs or a proxy for the chairs. Yepp. The problem of not being able to remotely manage the current "in-person" microphone line model is another core reason for my proposal to get rid of it and replace it with meetecho queue and everboy commenting from their seats. Btw. I thought that the "discuss from your seat, queue managed by chairs" works very nicely in other SDOs that use this model. And its also what i have come to see work best in any form of hybrid interrim i attended. Aka: consider the physcial in-person line to be an artefact of the past. It's very nice to pontificate such as in the plenary or whenever else we have a large crowd and loose discussions, but once you have experienced more of the alternatives from other events, at least to me the conclusion is that it was never the best model for focussed work discussions. It was just for a long time before we had better tooling the only technical option. Cheers Toerless > If we have that, then it seems that meetecho seems likely to need only minor > adjustments (if any at all) to meeet our needs in the narrow dimension of > chairing / presenting. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 3/18/2021 11:03 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 19-Mar-21 11:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > > You asked in your email how we would handle it if the WG chairs for a WG > > > that was meeting couldn't make it. > > > > > > There are multiple answers to that. We even have established practices. > > > One possible approach is to get someone else who is experienced at > > > managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the chairs can do most > > > of the work remotely. This works better now than it did when practiced > > > in the past, with our better remote participation. > > > > I'm no expert in this but I understand that what we lack in Meetecho is what > > is known in the trade as remote "floor control," which both WebEx and Zoom have. > > So I think Jay's second question needs a sub-question: > > - what are the minimum technical requirements for effective remote chairing? > > > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Mar 19 08:16:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5693A1853; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:16:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LH3Gvcz3IVcR; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DF83A1852; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:16:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1616166986; x=1616771786; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ow/DAFdXrry8gdo8vEUcE8ovo/iQwceJCKaAd2SAGkM=; b=ECZ04n3F8oTVv EYII7uC8rK6edrTwso6zjhxKTFWP0xNghF5h/kumdH+MAi7VQTYgKgR/PftKtRYR 6cXk4lt5NhYpmgcTYVdWxHgFekm9kfUUZMPVg4n4qsM/m4HexnceZUWuuLh81mg3 uwOh1eLmqc1AhCMfjojJ0A4IiEB+tA= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:16:26 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:16:25 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.145] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50000552193.msg; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:16:24 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:25e4:eda1:f040:9b4d X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.145] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:16:24 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1712d3905e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.47.21031401 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:16:23 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: CC: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] [admin-discuss] Hybrid IETF meetings References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:16:31 -0000 Understood! I guess we may want to consider both. Having a virtual mic instead of just = a virtual queue, could allow saving audio equipment and setup costs. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 19/3/21 16:00, "Manycouches en nombre de Ben Campbell" escribi=C3=B3: > On Mar 19, 2021, at 9:46 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >=20 > Many years ago, I suggested that the mic is no longer needed if every= body has a device with a mic. I still think that speakers in the room are n= eeded, but there may be problems with echo cancelation, etc. >=20 > However, enforcing "only" to be usable via a phone is clearly discrim= inatory. Not everyone has a smartphone, or even having it, is not corporate= , and may not like to use business apps in a personal phone, or in the othe= r way around, you may have a corporate smartphone (or laptop) that doesn't = allow you to use apps not tested and authorized by your employer. >=20 > So, it must be a way to use just a web browser, without special "perm= issions" in the device to use that "virtual" mic (and may be speakers, came= ra, etc.). I think this is what we already have with Meetecho, just need so= me mods in the UI, so if you're local, you don't need to see the slides on = the device. To be clear, I was not contemplating a virtual mike, just a virtual que= ue mechanism. Ben. _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Mar 19 08:21:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50B73A1865 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:21:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nm4s_O_Lk7Eg for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A94B3A1141 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse38.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.38] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lNGvl-000Mqj-2g for admin-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:21:00 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F26zM00GLzPJf for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.16] (helo=xmail06.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lNGve-0005PH-RJ for admin-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:20:46 -0700 Received: (qmail 14221 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2021 15:20:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.104]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.146]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail06.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 19 Mar 2021 15:20:45 -0000 To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , manycouches@ietf.org Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:20:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.38 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5wYNJg/GmUvX2wDBiApd0vQEuOubvMjlOVGoG6MTUBsWIJL M0i5ZAms0EHrvcCaVIMAKKn7HnDapeF0llq0n6FbzIXV52OyeiH3YVVX92r9x1Hy6O0dCYlf9T05 vJHa3fKcXUnX/NPpaaHkXcvmoaj8r/sJdE370TnVv249aSkkLJuBoKRbycab+xivlMZxSt1NOuP9 1GZ8SLb9PsvsohdeIRFsicyJMEhQFtD8PLoinjFCU0tibMaZMfiByLA2q5th8eXuGDB+WvlcaPhs +IMOep61KNolF2DlH2a2LdpMMmtrv2iUsvl2CC901V0YBrviEnzvvDcGs5qmm9XDE2pdZWZmIMWJ G2DzNierwWd45v2o1X92Cn4UU9JJ17dQkS7izDj4VfLGYhV5rU4pWppWERZjMvwfvbhZOry+t8BT U6S6BiS1pgrDY9yDlGBfLaRjewJ1p2KNOGtnsuIcf3b/prnOfejoy0ryl/SE9sCR4JkwTwd6I5MF c+Z5FxsZqYBzHDeqqFz43py4SDhdaHkWtttM+AEGzHMWbMjn66ZaUCrNIt931t/mGMxkBVmaFroI +jp0pq+y0kmGuliQTEmSYu8C5mJ57ZG9g9QfbBpIF04i48Xcfj93b8optspViB3ujwN5vAr2fQEN gxhN/KmvT74ZEqLd8l9FM+v8+4kcTSZlooj9DXgOMkxxW3l2FgVZ+JJDNDyg1Ws2Rd4k3jeTkg5T tJfAQHmpIJbzZ21zq0q85jxrdhJKnGeowXOZoCIhu1/rdU1t/SWu+yxj6TsAGEZ7+Uhraz9QTKI8 9uYjH10K1XacwNVrdseLPwMNJOyN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:21:04 -0000 I think the issue is symmetry. The two extreme environments are=20 symmetric: either everybody is online, or everybody is in the same room. = The hybrid modes like hub and spoke or many hubs are not: people in a=20 room are closer to other people in the same room, get physical cues,=20 etc. Indeed, this sense of closeness is why people travel to meetings in = the first place. The hybrid IETF meetings follow pretty much a hub and spoke model.=20 That's very asymmetric. Local participants can easily express=20 themselves, hum, go to the queue, show their faces, etc. Remote=20 participants get a creaky mike and maybe a clipped video presence when=20 they are presenting or formally asking a question. On the other hand,=20 remote participants have access to the chat room. Online experience=20 shows that this chat room is widely used for side discussions and real=20 time comments that nobody would think of shouting loud in the meeting=20 room. Local attendees could use the chat room too, but this requires=20 opening a laptop or tablet and creates a distance from the local=20 conversation. Can we make it symmetric? Maybe. As mentioned here, better hybrid queue=20 management would be a nice first step. Better video, too. For example,=20 make sure that the video of the remote people in the queue is somehow=20 projected in the meeting room, so they too can project body language,=20 etc., just as if they were in the room. If video is too much bandwidth,=20 static images might do -- but we need something better than the little=20 pacman like avatars used in Meetecho control screen in the past. When=20 presentations happen, send back to remote attendees both the screen and=20 the video of the presenter, and do the same when the presenter is=20 remote. Consider ways for the local attendees to see the chat room,=20 without requiring someone to read it aloud, and also without requiring=20 local attendees to hunch over their laptops. All of these can be developed incrementally, and people should most=20 probably not confuse me with an interaction designer. But the big issue=20 is symmetry, and how to restore it as much as we can. -- Christian Huitema On 3/19/2021 7:46 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Many years ago, I suggested that the mic is no longer needed if everybo= dy has a device with a mic. I still think that speakers in the room are n= eeded, but there may be problems with echo cancelation, etc. > > However, enforcing "only" to be usable via a phone is clearly discrimin= atory. Not everyone has a smartphone, or even having it, is not corporate= , and may not like to use business apps in a personal phone, or in the ot= her way around, you may have a corporate smartphone (or laptop) that does= n't allow you to use apps not tested and authorized by your employer. > > So, it must be a way to use just a web browser, without special "permis= sions" in the device to use that "virtual" mic (and may be speakers, came= ra, etc.). I think this is what we already have with Meetecho, just need = some mods in the UI, so if you're local, you don't need to see the slides= on the device. > > =20 > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet > =20 > =20 > > =EF=BB=BFEl 19/3/21 15:41, "Manycouches en nombre de Ben Campbell" escribi=C3=B3: > > > > > On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > > > My personal take is that requiring a phone app interaction to ge= t on the mike line is probably currently not reasonable. It may be a rea= sonable longer term goal. 9and maybe we should be focused on what the lo= nger temr looks like first.) I want to make sure the in room itneraction= remains effective, and that the remote interaction works. Too much fric= tion could kill both. > > > > Do you think a phone app is unreasonable because it would be high = friction to interact with your phone to add yourself to the queue? Or tha= t it would simply take time to develop and refine (and possibly distribut= e depending on whether we are talking app or web page) such a tool? > > In the interim, chairs might could designate a queue manager to so= rt things between the physical and virtual queues. But I suspect hilarity= would ensue :-) > > Ben. > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or= confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of= the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disc= losure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information,= even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and = will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipi= ent be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the con= tents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, i= s strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must= reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and dele= te it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Fri Mar 19 08:43:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189A53A18D7; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:43:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FIC0MKAUbZik; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D14A3A18D3; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB9F548056; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:43:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id B62F4440166; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:43:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:43:09 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Christian Huitema Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , manycouches@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210319154309.GP8957@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:43:20 -0000 Christian, All the way a the end of your text: > But the big issue is symmetry, and how to restore it as much as we can. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think that type of more abstract sentiment is what we should first get agreement on. Alas i think the success function is not complete symmetry because that can asily be had by making every "on-site" person attend from their own hotel room. Which i hope is something we agree on is not a sufficient version of symmery. Aka: we need to figure out how to raise the level of experience for remote participation as much as possible while simultaneously lowering the on-site experience as little as possible. But ultimatately it's that "lowering of the on-site experience" that is going to be most conroversal. For example, requiring me to use in-room a cell-phone to get into a physical microphone line looks to me like a really ugly and non-beneficial reduction in local experience because the physical line itself is IMHO the biggest detriment to symmetry and i hate to have yet another mandatory tool to use for no (by me) perceived benefits when IMHO there are much better options. And i am sure everybody will have different opinions about this, and we probably should experiment. CHeers toerless On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 08:20:45AM -0700, Christian Huitema wrote: > I think the issue is symmetry. The two extreme environments are symmetric: > either everybody is online, or everybody is in the same room. The hybrid > modes like hub and spoke or many hubs are not: people in a room are closer > to other people in the same room, get physical cues, etc. Indeed, this sense > of closeness is why people travel to meetings in the first place. > > The hybrid IETF meetings follow pretty much a hub and spoke model. That's > very asymmetric. Local participants can easily express themselves, hum, go > to the queue, show their faces, etc. Remote participants get a creaky mike > and maybe a clipped video presence when they are presenting or formally > asking a question. On the other hand, remote participants have access to the > chat room. Online experience shows that this chat room is widely used for > side discussions and real time comments that nobody would think of shouting > loud in the meeting room. Local attendees could use the chat room too, but > this requires opening a laptop or tablet and creates a distance from the > local conversation. > > Can we make it symmetric? Maybe. As mentioned here, better hybrid queue > management would be a nice first step. Better video, too. For example, make > sure that the video of the remote people in the queue is somehow projected > in the meeting room, so they too can project body language, etc., just as if > they were in the room. If video is too much bandwidth, static images might > do -- but we need something better than the little pacman like avatars used > in Meetecho control screen in the past. When presentations happen, send back > to remote attendees both the screen and the video of the presenter, and do > the same when the presenter is remote. Consider ways for the local attendees > to see the chat room, without requiring someone to read it aloud, and also > without requiring local attendees to hunch over their laptops. > > All of these can be developed incrementally, and people should most probably > not confuse me with an interaction designer. But the big issue is symmetry, > and how to restore it as much as we can. > > -- Christian Huitema > > On 3/19/2021 7:46 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > Many years ago, I suggested that the mic is no longer needed if everybody has a device with a mic. I still think that speakers in the room are needed, but there may be problems with echo cancelation, etc. > > > > However, enforcing "only" to be usable via a phone is clearly discriminatory. Not everyone has a smartphone, or even having it, is not corporate, and may not like to use business apps in a personal phone, or in the other way around, you may have a corporate smartphone (or laptop) that doesn't allow you to use apps not tested and authorized by your employer. > > > > So, it must be a way to use just a web browser, without special "permissions" in the device to use that "virtual" mic (and may be speakers, camera, etc.). I think this is what we already have with Meetecho, just need some mods in the UI, so if you're local, you don't need to see the slides on the device. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > @jordipalet > > > > ???El 19/3/21 15:41, "Manycouches en nombre de Ben Campbell" escribi: > > > > > > > > > On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > > > > > My personal take is that requiring a phone app interaction to get on the mike line is probably currently not reasonable. It may be a reasonable longer term goal. 9and maybe we should be focused on what the longer temr looks like first.) I want to make sure the in room itneraction remains effective, and that the remote interaction works. Too much friction could kill both. > > > > > > > Do you think a phone app is unreasonable because it would be high friction to interact with your phone to add yourself to the queue? Or that it would simply take time to develop and refine (and possibly distribute depending on whether we are talking app or web page) such a tool? > > > > In the interim, chairs might could designate a queue manager to sort things between the physical and virtual queues. But I suspect hilarity would ensue :-) > > > > Ben. > > _______________________________________________ > > Manycouches mailing list > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.theipv6company.com > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Manycouches mailing list > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Mar 19 09:09:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAFA3A195E; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gS5TODX3w9qL; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D1FB3A195D; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F283X3pnxz1ntZF; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:09:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1616170168; bh=tZ3cd/KeozmpzGmj9h77j/eHQWlQ8Jw+Mvlexq4h8Rk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=kTTbGOhpteKOtR41y88F+JMUBL9p3SqXMLB+/z5GCnIgYW69oeF6O1eaBlttydtYt C3cm84MavTH4OELmc01c/F/lu8murkwmekLKz76MsrdAB9eNd1r4g5hRRv4Y1YSp5+ 5WoGpQK+A3Fv+CQl+H4NJr8r5pRG4nBynYcOhCjc= X-Quarantine-ID: <04o7MdsOhpvq> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F283W6jnkz1nsKF; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:09:27 -0700 (PDT) To: Ben Campbell Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:09:26 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings - hybrid particiipation X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:09:31 -0000 While not easy, I expect the in room discussion manager to be managing the combination of the remote queue and the microphone queue. This applies even if the chairs are in the room. Trying to use an app for in-room queueing (whether a phone app or a web page) seems to me to create friction that we don't want. But maybe over time it can be made to work. Yours, Joel PS: One of the things that this all got me to wondering about is how many video feeds will we want from a room if we have in person meeting with fully meaningful remote participation. I started imaginging a feed for the slides, one showign the chairs, one shwoing the presenter, and one showing the microphone queu. And I started to wonder if I was really confusing myself. On 3/19/2021 10:40 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > >> On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> My personal take is that requiring a phone app interaction to get on the mike line is probably currently not reasonable. It may be a reasonable longer term goal. 9and maybe we should be focused on what the longer temr looks like first.) I want to make sure the in room itneraction remains effective, and that the remote interaction works. Too much friction could kill both. >> > > Do you think a phone app is unreasonable because it would be high friction to interact with your phone to add yourself to the queue? Or that it would simply take time to develop and refine (and possibly distribute depending on whether we are talking app or web page) such a tool? > > In the interim, chairs might could designate a queue manager to sort things between the physical and virtual queues. But I suspect hilarity would ensue :-) > > Ben. > From nobody Fri Mar 19 09:15:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB9C3A1974; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zvwDmkxdllQM; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C8973A1973; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id h3so6229494pfr.12; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:15:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=t9KXq4TUiGyEBA2urd9CiYS6sjCXRPl6sH76bhMH0IY=; b=hJ+8VwLADZnnJ5sLCiYX15FJRNnSaMLAlY30u+xrRDwZDEZLrc2OvXMjNRrTxAufGA DJCv+QqKjgUTL7tfjdlYS7M5mUuhURrwHNHxj5h/ALS/fiZGAWe2FX6l6iC53kBVrg/U aDx+74uTSjFzpEU+8tYcQlNfknD8qhgVxRO38TEBGbTay4vK73KDG4xvN7G3ur9eTFQv WnRuiupIg6oXRDDNTumGrYpntCgEolbgPQ+HMTiULCuBleZXCcLgn4KzDLZQZ9n0YEe7 2tTeyboeaU7WAvCCeQIYT1jBanknAwQu9NQwOtdkIXgZkWMuIe8nSogm+TEb91UQonIX F+tA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=t9KXq4TUiGyEBA2urd9CiYS6sjCXRPl6sH76bhMH0IY=; b=rUDQXkGs5wjSsCwxCPAZmYac0LdxFgBAOsE6i2voluWWVP6ulADjyxw8AWce4MAQFx HFm59DeXKjx7l+wBqDuVWM8JQERsqiEpApBt1VwLfjrmKpOminktCretg4P/m1jau2ah im8DcPVczVsjj1IeIW13uj170nPuxebRQ/nl6RgDNFS1qALSY+ML8TkDT+MhmoUks0sS HFnGze+eeKDh1BoBxLo920PE5SUUSCthNlS4+8uk5TCnW8g/QnzisMeUjqmLsfVMqJqw 8dA+BhZ0HcVJGy654ZPRITw/4XcDOEqgIdosiQuTfaA8fWemZetyy9oSlENXu8Xrekir Z+LA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533CkM7wJpoptXmeVUNRoeyONbbJrNkO7nKLGwPfTA5cS0IrpxFl SoE8kVQraQsGPL2apbeEGCHWBsLrOzc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylA5UtycyGH9/2z6BA5KmIo+5FMKQ2qIKG/Gn+NZfQG2zrV6klRM5XdFYP9qiGBy3LYNNQ0Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2da:b029:202:7800:567 with SMTP id b26-20020a056a0002dab029020278000567mr9530320pft.71.1616170500549; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip68-111-231-227.sd.sd.cox.net. [68.111.231.227]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b19sm5851397pfo.7.2021.03.19.09.14.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:15:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <99BA520D-9CD4-4DC1-9572-B0E2338EC034@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0351FF56-6546-4BC1-A73C-EF3593E08799"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:14:57 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Ben Campbell , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings - hybrid particiipation X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:15:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0351FF56-6546-4BC1-A73C-EF3593E08799 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Mar 19, 2021, at 9:09 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > PS: One of the things that this all got me to wondering about is how = many video feeds will we want from a room if we have in person meeting = with fully meaningful remote participation. I started imaginging a feed = for the slides, one showign the chairs, one shwoing the presenter, and = one showing the microphone queu. And I started to wonder if I was = really confusing myself. In that, I wonder the value of having a camera on the chairs. It would = be useful in the sense of "seeing the person speaking, who might be a = chair". But to my mind you need the presenter's display - slides or = whatever - the speaker (I don't need to see his face, but it tells me = who is speaking), and the "other" person currently recognized as a = speaker (pointed at the mike, perhaps). --Apple-Mail=_0351FF56-6546-4BC1-A73C-EF3593E08799 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAmBUzgIACgkQEhdRnd2G P+Cs6w//au+24lYaI02NJu8xUrEujDNkyTwtOxax9ufuofFnemo+IBOTWfXZAQ28 /LQkG9kY9kDJ0SQCkcHXNFKbx35ptF7xJJwl/nwLK3WshrPG1NypMkVJHCtLK4bJ DBTZPENIj2KIB8ZaMiO8cHjeTqCbMQaCrsS0b9YQnod429fp9vjXtifgYykPYHnQ 6JvE/Coa2M8eZL9B650TvQprrCZ5dWU08FSlN3Ya6Aei3x5ovjNo/Bmo1z7Xjrr1 LcwGSxP/Zps3T2xlVvj5VKKUCmVD6yB+gX4Z3TKje8r6EUL8n91oWO0zL/K6hgXG i3s2FWU4S3vX4aUOqZJa04ujMeAqoyJyDRQcZ1x2c8hFaWKU/qIaiUVI5ww4SkaP K1paYASvoDABnUAp/i6tQvxbJ198xMD0p8237V+nETfDhUGzpCrSafgMiwrw0zKG YpFc/qxWz22UAkJMC3Eh8htji/b6uvjlzHsFtU45JH7IRoHvwvR1vwkj7KPIMV9d vh8W9CjnSqgRLwskLFIxpt7ZlpSW4qnmO4KulcHaE37r/XuRBvXC65Yo28Kp0gdM KHHLM4zOtyYLdJwpOMpwRcDYXlJFSkwuZJH1TS0BejcRQDI+d1fwS/tPfFAedNio r9gQUG1dQstRHnjRVzIHS7zl2bKbV59U4iEZTBGFTJ7JM1rzxdY= =MI8x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0351FF56-6546-4BC1-A73C-EF3593E08799-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 09:30:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23153A19C6; 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Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:30:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> <20210319154309.GP8957@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20210319154309.GP8957@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:30:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Christian Huitema , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000061c38905bde63b11" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:30:25 -0000 --00000000000061c38905bde63b11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, Again, so much fascinating discussions. I think that such a hybrid meeting Jay mentioned will be much like what we had before Covid 19 pandemic. Meetecho was mainly used for remote presentation, with hybrid it could be a screen showing a bunch of attendees like zoom does. Chat comments could be channeled to the room by Jabber scribe, so Jabber scribing makes a come back :) Behcet On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 10:43 AM Toerless Eckert wrote: > Christian, > > All the way a the end of your text: > > > But the big issue is symmetry, and how to restore it as much as we can= . > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^= ^ > > I think that type of more abstract sentiment is what we should first get > agreement > on. > > Alas i think the success function is not complete symmetry because that > can asily be had by making every "on-site" person attend from their own > hotel room. Which i hope is something we agree on is not a sufficient > version > of symmery. > > Aka: we need to figure out how to raise the level of experience > for remote participation as much as possible while simultaneously lowerin= g > the on-site experience as little as possible. But ultimatately it's that > "lowering of the on-site experience" that is going to be most conroversal= . > > For example, requiring me to use in-room a cell-phone to get into a > physical > microphone line looks to me like a really ugly and non-beneficial reducti= on > in local experience because the physical line itself is IMHO the biggest > detriment to symmetry and i hate to have yet another mandatory tool to us= e > for no (by me) perceived benefits when IMHO there are much better options= . > > And i am sure everybody will have different opinions about this, and we > probably should experiment. > > CHeers > toerless > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 08:20:45AM -0700, Christian Huitema wrote: > > I think the issue is symmetry. The two extreme environments are > symmetric: > > either everybody is online, or everybody is in the same room. The hybri= d > > modes like hub and spoke or many hubs are not: people in a room are > closer > > to other people in the same room, get physical cues, etc. Indeed, this > sense > > of closeness is why people travel to meetings in the first place. > > > > The hybrid IETF meetings follow pretty much a hub and spoke model. That= 's > > very asymmetric. Local participants can easily express themselves, hum, > go > > to the queue, show their faces, etc. Remote participants get a creaky > mike > > and maybe a clipped video presence when they are presenting or formally > > asking a question. On the other hand, remote participants have access t= o > the > > chat room. Online experience shows that this chat room is widely used f= or > > side discussions and real time comments that nobody would think of > shouting > > loud in the meeting room. Local attendees could use the chat room too, > but > > this requires opening a laptop or tablet and creates a distance from th= e > > local conversation. > > > > Can we make it symmetric? Maybe. As mentioned here, better hybrid queue > > management would be a nice first step. Better video, too. For example, > make > > sure that the video of the remote people in the queue is somehow > projected > > in the meeting room, so they too can project body language, etc., just > as if > > they were in the room. If video is too much bandwidth, static images > might > > do -- but we need something better than the little pacman like avatars > used > > in Meetecho control screen in the past. When presentations happen, send > back > > to remote attendees both the screen and the video of the presenter, and > do > > the same when the presenter is remote. Consider ways for the local > attendees > > to see the chat room, without requiring someone to read it aloud, and > also > > without requiring local attendees to hunch over their laptops. > > > > All of these can be developed incrementally, and people should most > probably > > not confuse me with an interaction designer. But the big issue is > symmetry, > > and how to restore it as much as we can. > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > On 3/19/2021 7:46 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > > Many years ago, I suggested that the mic is no longer needed if > everybody has a device with a mic. I still think that speakers in the roo= m > are needed, but there may be problems with echo cancelation, etc. > > > > > > However, enforcing "only" to be usable via a phone is clearly > discriminatory. Not everyone has a smartphone, or even having it, is not > corporate, and may not like to use business apps in a personal phone, or = in > the other way around, you may have a corporate smartphone (or laptop) tha= t > doesn't allow you to use apps not tested and authorized by your employer. > > > > > > So, it must be a way to use just a web browser, without special > "permissions" in the device to use that "virtual" mic (and may be speaker= s, > camera, etc.). I think this is what we already have with Meetecho, just > need some mods in the UI, so if you're local, you don't need to see the > slides on the device. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > @jordipalet > > > > > > ???El 19/3/21 15:41, "Manycouches en nombre de Ben Campbell" < > manycouches-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de ben@nostrum.com> escribi=C3=B3: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern < > jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > My personal take is that requiring a phone app interaction to > get on the mike line is probably currently not reasonable. It may be a > reasonable longer term goal. 9and maybe we should be focused on what the > longer temr looks like first.) I want to make sure the in room itneracti= on > remains effective, and that the remote interaction works. Too much > friction could kill both. > > > > > > > > > > Do you think a phone app is unreasonable because it would be hig= h > friction to interact with your phone to add yourself to the queue? Or tha= t > it would simply take time to develop and refine (and possibly distribute > depending on whether we are talking app or web page) such a tool? > > > > > > In the interim, chairs might could designate a queue manager to > sort things between the physical and virtual queues. But I suspect hilari= ty > would ensue :-) > > > > > > Ben. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Manycouches mailing list > > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > IPv4 is over > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > http://www.theipv6company.com > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Manycouches mailing list > > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Manycouches mailing list > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --00000000000061c38905bde63b11 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,=C2=A0

Again, so much fascinating= discussions.

I think that such a hybrid meeting J= ay mentioned will be much like what we had before Covid 19 pandemic.=C2=A0<= /div>
Meetecho was mainly used for remote presentation, with hybrid it = could be a screen showing a bunch of attendees like zoom does.
Ch= at comments could be channeled to the room by Jabber scribe, so Jabber scri= bing makes a come back :)

Behcet

On Fri, Mar = 19, 2021 at 10:43 AM Toerless Eckert <t= te@cs.fau.de> wrote:
Christian,

All the way a the end of your text:

> But the big issue is symmetry,=C2=A0 and how to restore it as much as = we can.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^= ^^^^^^^^^^^

I think that type of more abstract sentiment is what we should first get ag= reement
on.

=C2=A0Alas i think the success function is not complete symmetry because th= at
can asily be had by making every "on-site" person attend from the= ir own
hotel room. Which i hope is something we agree on is not a sufficient versi= on
of symmery.

Aka: we need to figure out how to raise the level of experience
for remote participation as much as possible while simultaneously lowering<= br> the on-site experience as little as possible. But ultimatately it's tha= t
"lowering of the on-site experience" that is going to be most con= roversal.

For example, requiring me to use in-room a cell-phone to get into a physica= l
microphone line looks to me like a really ugly and non-beneficial reduction=
in local experience because the physical line itself is IMHO the biggest detriment to symmetry and i hate to have yet another mandatory tool to use<= br> for no (by me) perceived benefits when IMHO there are much better options. =

And i am sure everybody will have different opinions about this, and we
probably should experiment.

CHeers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 toerless

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 08:20:45AM -0700, Christian Huitema wrote:
> I think the issue is symmetry. The two extreme environments are symmet= ric:
> either everybody is online, or everybody is in the same room. The hybr= id
> modes like hub and spoke or many hubs are not: people in a room are cl= oser
> to other people in the same room, get physical cues, etc. Indeed, this= sense
> of closeness is why people travel to meetings in the first place.
>
> The hybrid IETF meetings follow pretty much a hub and spoke model. Tha= t's
> very asymmetric. Local participants can easily express themselves, hum= , go
> to the queue, show their faces, etc. Remote participants get a creaky = mike
> and maybe a clipped video presence when they are presenting or formall= y
> asking a question. On the other hand, remote participants have access = to the
> chat room. Online experience shows that this chat room is widely used = for
> side discussions and real time comments that nobody would think of sho= uting
> loud in the meeting room. Local attendees could use the chat room too,= but
> this requires opening a laptop or tablet and creates a distance from t= he
> local conversation.
>
> Can we make it symmetric? Maybe. As mentioned here, better hybrid queu= e
> management would be a nice first step. Better video, too. For example,= make
> sure that the video of the remote people in the queue is somehow proje= cted
> in the meeting room, so they too can project body language, etc., just= as if
> they were in the room. If video is too much bandwidth, static images m= ight
> do -- but we need something better than the little pacman like avatars= used
> in Meetecho control screen in the past. When presentations happen, sen= d back
> to remote attendees both the screen and the video of the presenter, an= d do
> the same when the presenter is remote. Consider ways for the local att= endees
> to see the chat room, without requiring someone to read it aloud, and = also
> without requiring local attendees to hunch over their laptops.
>
> All of these can be developed incrementally, and people should most pr= obably
> not confuse me with an interaction designer. But the big issue is symm= etry,
> and how to restore it as much as we can.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
> On 3/19/2021 7:46 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> > Many years ago, I suggested that the mic is no longer needed if e= verybody has a device with a mic. I still think that speakers in the room a= re needed, but there may be problems with echo cancelation, etc.
> >
> > However, enforcing "only" to be usable via a phone is c= learly discriminatory. Not everyone has a smartphone, or even having it, is= not corporate, and may not like to use business apps in a personal phone, = or in the other way around, you may have a corporate smartphone (or laptop)= that doesn't allow you to use apps not tested and authorized by your e= mployer.
> >
> > So, it must be a way to use just a web browser, without special &= quot;permissions" in the device to use that "virtual" mic (a= nd may be speakers, camera, etc.). I think this is what we already have wit= h Meetecho, just need some mods in the UI, so if you're local, you don&= #39;t need to see the slides on the device.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jordi
> > @jordipalet
> >
> > ???El 19/3/21 15:41, "Manycouches en nombre de Ben Campbell&= quot; <manycouches-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de ben@nostrum.com> escribi=C3=B3:
> >
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Joel M. Hal= pern <jmh@joelh= alpern.com> wrote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > My personal take is that requiring a pho= ne app interaction to get on the mike line is probably currently not reason= able.=C2=A0 It may be a reasonable longer term goal.=C2=A0 9and maybe we sh= ould be focused on what the longer temr looks like first.)=C2=A0 I want to = make sure the in room itneraction remains effective, and that the remote in= teraction works.=C2=A0 Too much friction could kill both.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Do you think a phone app is unreasonable beca= use it would be high friction to interact with your phone to add yourself t= o the queue? Or that it would simply take time to develop and refine (and p= ossibly distribute depending on whether we are talking app or web page) suc= h a tool?
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the interim, chairs might could designate = a queue manager to sort things between the physical and virtual queues. But= I suspect hilarity would ensue :-)
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ben.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _____________________________________________= __
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Manycouches mailing list
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Manycouches@ietf.org
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/manycouches
> >
> >
> >
> > **********************************************
> > IPv4 is over
> > Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> > http://www.theipv6company.com
> > The IPv6 Company
> >
> > This electronic message contains information which may be privile= ged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive us= e of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized di= sclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information,= even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and wi= ll be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents = of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strict= ly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to = the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Manycouches mailing list
> > Manycou= ches@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/man= ycouches
>
> _______________________________________________
> Manycouches mailing list
> Manycouches@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouc= hes

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
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[68.111.231.227]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i10sm6795409pgo.75.2021.03.19.10.23.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:23:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <08B4C038-B8D7-481B-988E-73DC4146FA30@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AF05BCA1-B5FE-46AD-892F-6B3090841C49"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:23:23 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: manycouches@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:23:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AF05BCA1-B5FE-46AD-892F-6B3090841C49 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:16 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >=20 > Understood! >=20 > I guess we may want to consider both. Having a virtual mic instead of = just a virtual queue, could allow saving audio equipment and setup = costs. There will be issues with remote rooms that are internally f2f among = several participants. Does each participant get a "mike", or does the = room? > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFEl 19/3/21 16:00, "Manycouches en nombre de Ben Campbell" = escribi=C3=B3:= >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 19, 2021, at 9:46 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >>=20 >> Many years ago, I suggested that the mic is no longer needed if = everybody has a device with a mic. I still think that speakers in the = room are needed, but there may be problems with echo cancelation, etc. >>=20 >> However, enforcing "only" to be usable via a phone is clearly = discriminatory. Not everyone has a smartphone, or even having it, is not = corporate, and may not like to use business apps in a personal phone, or = in the other way around, you may have a corporate smartphone (or laptop) = that doesn't allow you to use apps not tested and authorized by your = employer. >>=20 >> So, it must be a way to use just a web browser, without special = "permissions" in the device to use that "virtual" mic (and may be = speakers, camera, etc.). I think this is what we already have with = Meetecho, just need some mods in the UI, so if you're local, you don't = need to see the slides on the device. >=20 > To be clear, I was not contemplating a virtual mike, just a virtual = queue mechanism. >=20 > Ben. > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized = disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this = information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly = prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the = intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution = or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including = attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal = offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this = communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --Apple-Mail=_AF05BCA1-B5FE-46AD-892F-6B3090841C49 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAmBU3gsACgkQEhdRnd2G P+BDKhAAw6oPMjn77l0iaBzZoqY5O3K/rVf5CwIxSS0WSkXglF01EkuHmigMQJ04 E4r2MtrkqDVzd5gBIAc2U+br0UPSIbIc9v+k1GEV2sJfpjG35yEt47kGI/a3IA8+ aeILXtzpO20Bi+kjbW1tLtWPcU6eBesjPYJuSaPc2hFUgE2D43bbWnXkqZShyY9J /BAaZzgvIoxg4NVE4g3yB0+Sh2janNeE908vQ8AtSoCHkPGMeo88jVNSh7cf0sqt DPcg2sgWlIFq5nAuX6pmS4NYVgtGF5Tml6SieMK1OZwFoU3aEwGxvttmIrteIy5t XTZKYLu2POJGe8jp2svqZoMMSHgTvUxcCSz4P3ZL+5SnSR0LcLXS7S2MGL9vMSW2 g+aqK/jq1OoG/Y06YCs18IUtNyNuyGKI9brRG3/XgfPb17vObveKzXyPZEInofur ocTXxn6wq5q/xwppKWxq+N5Ki4aNiwnxzO2k1i7VA4NKvOXzqZOQ4prKBYbZTyHQ ra3XITUV6cdf2eCtK/cOaq4LbYd25ZqSFDibHwE04EFcE7QbMSCjnyixPi9TqA1a 5bBSdA7sdeCK8xzFuQlJwzOgjqXqTErxvUuWMP/zjJt7MN0TjrS8a6R+azu3ISMR 3eOvnTkFEgo63lIcaa/j0y0S3N0UU6bODdI9cKnIOQ2S8rA+GpE= =tOa6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_AF05BCA1-B5FE-46AD-892F-6B3090841C49-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 10:55:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2383A1B57; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:55:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S2QQ5Q349L3v; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E30A3A1B56; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee71fe6003c17b4e3a43838bc.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e71f:e600:3c17:b4e3:a438:38bc]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1lNJLZ-0002Zy-JP; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:55:41 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:55:41 +0100 Cc: Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1616176546;39cf1186; X-HE-SMSGID: 1lNJLZ-0002Zy-JP Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:55:48 -0000 > On 18. Mar 2021, at 23:54, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 > - Ask the IESG to consider different styles of agenda for a > few different scenarios, e.g. it could be with say 400 f2f > attendees where a lot are relatively local my ideal agenda > for the week might work (hackathon until 1400 local, > meeting sessions 'till 1800 then back to hackathon and > socialising:-), or, maybe a 4 day agenda would make sense > or something - basically, the secretariat could give the > IESG options to consider based on other events and see if > one or more of those look good. So I think the point here is that if we have more people remote than = local we might also want to restrict the agenda to at max 6 hours a day.=20= I like the idea of having hackathon-like get-togethers in the morning, = which also explains why we already have started our online agenda around = noon local time ;-)= From nobody Fri Mar 19 11:02:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCE33A1B83; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:02:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9StTcDBBQTeM; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89B7E3A1B78; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id x184so6432345pfd.6; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:02:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=LeMjqglvpTWk8PVIO6JCvLlUVSpXwhbNq9T59hAYpz0=; b=adhzHHyQov25FuyjwZAwPn0xvn7FDhskGDxIfjgOf+8JRM8t81Poc1OPoNkjb7BHiP FeCZxgOeNmq9h9UQlfRxElL4dA9JuLZ4J3YJHmvmgZStedMEjLOfPk4Jkfx+EtIfZIcH 7ev9f5mkKSbfDi1nfvpiLBVQ890gnz6BuovfuNRkoOIuCmIO+zgHdXX4I64lhMmk97VW dcwWMW0GuVxGRITyqEOe7ov0+y2pBaWU5xQKjgWlyCgUriiE9bU4RRfX8zNeKM5708cx bJOoa3e3+B/lhQUzN+N6u+zmumf6JmcpC7N5k8Lq+yMbh45xoJYjEgs7ujK/3fS0VRtM KeQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=LeMjqglvpTWk8PVIO6JCvLlUVSpXwhbNq9T59hAYpz0=; b=inqdXubN8gUg+t6Kv1Z2xxwxtQ+igpO55aMZ7wQwLgdfL9TWGF39i70vMhiMmcAiaq OJUdW+uVMp28w7Bvql4J+cF+X9SzjBMLfqwxlcmAYAwP4VwuVJ9sun0JivBnNTLWqTIO owNFufQxIA1RTe0+jF/3htjRsUhGNj/nJ4PIpUavw53qteD5t+u2qnKNO1olaAsbvml6 rH1svv6Rv7u3zWH2wunzsO3dkf8hWWjpQi15EnWEyetT8jk/ngX5bPLFS5/Z4TcadCG/ hGxBrhGZmWWnF7WnVEY51prYQjQb4kd94KsUpqrPXqEYkPmAh4vQuQ1m1II+13LOHK/h 6z4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oFC91LXyVtfxKpOVIPj9GqIOv3hJSaKR8N3vd1w7+wO+keBbi /GxW9cCh2kYnstnbUl/R9rscaYpNnvI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyU8kdKTfcoy42rWb3NdElYaFhoLvcnthBqqlRh0mQjp7k1bJtpMY49VKeIPz+0o+io3OFAtA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5b03:: with SMTP id p3mr12250072pgb.27.1616176957638; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip68-111-231-227.sd.sd.cox.net. [68.111.231.227]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id gb1sm5985675pjb.21.2021.03.19.11.02.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:02:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <83CCAA28-5103-44F8-A713-65BAFB45990C@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BB979303-E5E1-4FF1-A5BC-56B58A5231D9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:02:33 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stephen Farrell , admin-discuss@ietf.org, Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org To: Mirja Kuehlewind References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:02:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BB979303-E5E1-4FF1-A5BC-56B58A5231D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Mar 19, 2021, at 10:55 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > I like the idea of having hackathon-like get-togethers in the morning, For some definition of "morning". When the time zone is in Europe, I'm = sleeping during your morning... --Apple-Mail=_BB979303-E5E1-4FF1-A5BC-56B58A5231D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAmBU5zoACgkQEhdRnd2G P+Aa4xAAwiy6C9+ou1q4K44yl1cZ4MMw6NhXNmlnKZt4UUsDHJHeVjt0TPSxupaQ j5XXVwiwglyWEJOTcpA1O/qmORavBtpjspEytJrSTl//odV2It+TnnQZNjTAm+sz D7tJRUxaqJHKUOf9+mTthzwWvwvR7P9c+sPU4w5doRr/TxcpxBkJCBwDoFL1t3pb c/+xaitMVwpF37Ve6wNaJAq112G+7K5yeximLDk00D4NlcNaSjcF9OqfgCsnhm7g xqrnVunuUAGPMUtJ7x3EYzQYvtmRV7G2QJgyYQf9ov5E5FNZVWAAUGF3Hz6qkmOf 10etzFy+QOkCWNcwJI1ZjyJCR9HiNG4b5GXAPNd2njHnOOVVZ8MJvCvsjNtro6ly uGBVDaXAFW/L5b2zD3Au/RzChjUNs3lBrl5mDzj7mEnvfVidHC38yGAwEoys3+1T KOHoq1qfLxL8Ed6U+b81ro7PPoKJkUCUGxgpsDS+JN7R2epjZUlBHUB2dxHPlFKR TSgneNvI+dQQcRk83tEA3KPbHPVb3sgvtKO/AcgpVubNpvRpFwR25Wj15sMV/mbt 8UbfMm+76R27NdH5BEr3r7nEJSqtoHQCYFSuzZ0flqP0/5cFbE96nga6Rmw2zaXi GqOELaqcPhAky6DnKsjuQsT/cWsVfQ58w0v9EB+3xwoWnEkPl50= =Jr3Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BB979303-E5E1-4FF1-A5BC-56B58A5231D9-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 11:14:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EEFC3A043E; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eJ4YhiPCpKkb; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f180.google.com (mail-yb1-f180.google.com [209.85.219.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39D883A03FA; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f180.google.com with SMTP id l14so6657348ybe.2; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uAkvB5WAlkIMEy4bszX5KgxkV26k92KN1kpsbHkHp4c=; b=baV4kO7rm5f3sAG/AVJ2Cr6if4ZdoCAw84LLPT7tsrXOZO3qiqyFtMUkeFE/lUeLcD WhdcmMP3BrG6Pn378mu5ro5pp7Fn/gUz2uMJM5d/x5gSgNLblxn24J1a4aw3/z6jaT/A 8+Bf8GgSCM0dY/ifZpx0413IUZs6AWr+7zIvRBbvXwtl7wIZM06oALNcLomlXwTjm22a fhDgOa459hmGtcgRtaeh6rSt50op/R7JiqWZ5RWxPvdz8zhDSx0kH3xwIuk/+tuugite giBVIItunWTVwbe/YQgOOKdnmgkhYGwL10aISdM9BSAvGV8fjQPm56My0yRCv/NlLTKr 9Iqg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5332lk05kJDY1twtJl5//1PwIfdVKhY90Mx0jx7Z6S0cvsLI8rNz dwyW92+XuhJo7Oa5nOv/Q3w3uWaWCVNsYoWE140= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyV8/WzJaZXWCWDLhELHcxJ/r3+iNcjpNiGKKiu5mUUfy/il7c5/L8GEm6zlSRR6LhF9qTZ1LwRCU7eUvSaBSc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:a0cd:: with SMTP id i13mr8248332ybm.302.1616177669474; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:14:19 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: Ben Campbell , admin-discuss@ietf.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e20ce305bde7af02" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:14:37 -0000 --000000000000e20ce305bde7af02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker wrote: > > > > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > > > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical tool that > let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on their phones) but > otherwise interact locally be a problem? > > I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to be > active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in MeetEcho, > and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual queue. From a > chairing perspective, I think that could work by having people join the > queue online at will, and maintain a relatively short line at the physical > mike. That depends, of course, on people speaking when recognized, which > may differ from the usual mechanism of speaking when you filter to the > front of the line. It might actually help integrate the physical and > virtual worlds. > Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to speak. I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to say something and don't because it has already been pointed out... --000000000000e20ce305bde7af02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wr= ote:


> On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>
> Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical tool that= let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on their phones) bu= t otherwise interact locally be a problem?

I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to be ac= tive - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in MeetEcho, an= d a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual queue. From a chairing = perspective, I think that could work by having people join the queue online= at will, and maintain a relatively short line at the physical mike. That d= epends, of course, on people speaking when recognized, which may differ fro= m the usual mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front of the line.= It might actually help integrate the physical and virtual worlds.

Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves i= n queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to speak.=

I think I would prefer t= hat anyway. The number of times I get up to say something and don't bec= ause it has already been pointed out...

=C2=A0
--000000000000e20ce305bde7af02-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 11:28:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024B23A08ED; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:28:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VhemqEZrypga; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A6BD3A08F4; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2C7m5bz9z1ntZF; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:28:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1616178500; bh=6qJIEJpavwD9HCLNYZCfxZ35+/+sdWXAVwqeYZdifWQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=G+9C58Be7LBEk8KK38Q0xdbpPIFYi0qfhffBqEokMUW6tX1wkYNi0nDexZUmjRTn+ GNIJXcvL8aFGDyPsTpStskAKjvE922hi1iJd1tL/rrsEIph46HBoTkzeS14qP/BfGS fuP/be6lwgpikPAGdzdLEFGnOE73kxHjScvss8NM= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F2C7m0kKSz1nsKF; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:28:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <649c771d-d182-6158-0aa0-1566f5a82c88@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:28:18 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:28:23 -0000 There are two opposite problems. On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to walk to the microphone, things slow down. And most WGs are short of time already. Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the point of the exercise in my view. Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness of a face-to-face meeting. Yours, Joel On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker > wrote: > > > > > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: > > > > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical tool > that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on their > phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? > > I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to be > active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in > MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual > queue. From a chairing perspective, I think that could work by > having people join the queue online at will, and maintain a > relatively short line at the physical mike. That depends, of course, > on people speaking when recognized, which may differ from the usual > mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front of the line. It > might actually help integrate the physical and virtual worlds. > > > Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to speak. > > I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to say > something and don't because it has already been pointed out... > From nobody Fri Mar 19 11:37:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0656A3A0062; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tcanva08eVZU; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f174.google.com (mail-yb1-f174.google.com [209.85.219.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 790403A0061; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f174.google.com with SMTP id h82so7218391ybc.13; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NslUSY7NLYih7AGWjYHgtdthCG//JWo44kbuP8oZT/s=; b=JkuHFocrewkhiECSzYlufdW5kUNeLVGGYNicxLYVJcxE1cmQP1u1J9h+kMM3xYJJdt 7NYPTOWZ/zz9JHpsGak//ogA6WK83Wm8TreIkP2hrKVgbCNLMTqCgN3qEeWBTukUHzPm wcZcf0uehh8FgyQgl7/nupEv9Mq9M89MhmMHZExvz7vUDAg+1rAbkCeyDiY6EGfaNpNY 6shXOF1XESFBj9MaA6Hmrbk3cYI9Fog66bYGDgls8zMns5Pj+kvLCi5+DO/kk1pujzQb S2X6UdqT80tcSRglKztUT0+ZTZcyvd28uz4fmq60DbRdVpWBgKX0IksNpewhBEnIx8Xx hxjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531S+LTgjutMzh4FlkdORq2VWM7exAUVOhBoxxhPEjkWZT5onQS5 byaxGdDdVPhf/AVtdBv70BwGXC57GobH08zw+EQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJySGLYyb0uD4ORvjMbg8nhC0BqOw3HNYOdajtTufvEdv/p/Dz8P/pF1FHp6KbEQjU6vP/Jz5Zw9Yjnkb3GKt3U= X-Received: by 2002:a25:a0cd:: with SMTP id i13mr8362109ybm.302.1616179040672; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:37:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <649c771d-d182-6158-0aa0-1566f5a82c88@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <649c771d-d182-6158-0aa0-1566f5a82c88@joelhalpern.com> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:37:10 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009cddc205bde801f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:37:23 -0000 --0000000000009cddc205bde801f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The protocol I was suggesting was To speak 1) Add yourself to the queue 2) If you are one of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, go to the mic 3) If you are the first person, start speaking. This protocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively managing the queue and prompting people to start speaking. Often in Meetecho I saw a lot of pauses when the next speaker was clearly waiting for the chair to declare the speaking token had moved on. This was a particular problem in the IESG and IAB plenaries where it was never quite clear if discussion of the previous topic was closed. Another protocol that I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger and two finger interjections. A one finger interjection has priority on two fingers but only gets 15 seconds while two fingers gets a minute. Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the person who KNOWS has an authoritative response. On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > There are two opposite problems. > On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to > walk to the microphone, things slow down. And most WGs are short of > time already. Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the > point of the exercise in my view. > > Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk > to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness > of a face-to-face meeting. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell > > wrote: > > > > > > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical tool > > that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on their > > phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? > > > > I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to be > > active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in > > MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual > > queue. From a chairing perspective, I think that could work by > > having people join the queue online at will, and maintain a > > relatively short line at the physical mike. That depends, of course, > > on people speaking when recognized, which may differ from the usual > > mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front of the line. It > > might actually help integrate the physical and virtual worlds. > > > > > > Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in > > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to speak. > > > > I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to say > > something and don't because it has already been pointed out... > > > --0000000000009cddc205bde801f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The= protocol I was suggesting was=C2=A0

To speak
1) Add yourself to the queue
2) If you are one of the first two people in the Meete= cho queue, go to the mic
3) If you are the first person, start speaking.

This protocol does work a lot better if = the chair is actively managing the queue and prompting people to start spea= king. Often in Meetecho I saw a lot of pauses when the next speaker was cle= arly waiting for the chair to declare the speaking token had moved on. This= was a particular problem=C2=A0in the IESG and IAB plenaries where it was n= ever quite clear if discussion of the previous topic was closed.


Another protocol that I have seen used a lot = at MIT is the one finger and two finger interjections. A one finger interje= ction has priority on two fingers but only gets 15 seconds while two finger= s gets a minute.

Quite of= ten a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the person who KNOWS ha= s an authoritative response.=C2=A0


On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
There are two opposite = problems.
On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to
walk to the microphone, things slow down.=C2=A0 And most WGs are short of <= br> time already.=C2=A0 Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the=
point of the exercise in my view.

Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness
of a face-to-face meeting.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com
> <mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell <= ;ben@nostrum.com >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Is that all or nothing? For example, would so= me hypothetical tool
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that let people add themselves to the meetecho queu= e (maybe on their
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem= ?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would expect that he's asking essentially for= two mechanisms to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0active - both a physical line at the mike, and a vi= rtual line in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also = in a virtual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0queue. From a chairing perspective, I think that co= uld work by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0having people join the queue online at will, and ma= intain a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0relatively short line at the physical mike. That de= pends, of course,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on people speaking when recognized, which may diffe= r from the usual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front = of the line. It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0might actually help integrate the physical and virt= ual worlds.
>
>
> Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in <= br> > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to spe= ak.
>
> I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to sa= y
> something and don't because it has already been pointed out...
>
--0000000000009cddc205bde801f0-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 14:06:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FC63A1093; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:06:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WiJmFHcxJ_74; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E98F3A106D; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2GfL2JLKz6G9Rl; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:06:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1616187994; bh=klIvDFmTfMJRgAYE1zbJTfOUhs55hHFMAWc1wz1yWXw=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=rErTGIO+RPXd6CZFB1m+TNSUWepg+0jV/N8xwUNver8CVF5+ixK4tdNRKn6Rp2wid vFWwfFVKBUQj06MtllI4hytp7ourpOjKOQsjUnOHPCA5H+YgJOXEaYxxCFIdjVmZEf HlwKlDfjWy47j686UStpnKwTkvvWNlkYkFhzQsZU= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F2GfK4RKjz6G9Qx; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:06:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <649c771d-d182-6158-0aa0-1566f5a82c88@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:06:32 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:06:37 -0000 I like that the idea of a mechanism for a shroter, higher priority, comment. Yours, Joel On 3/19/2021 2:37 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > The protocol I was suggesting was > > To speak > 1) Add yourself to the queue > 2) If you are one of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, go to > the mic > 3) If you are the first person, start speaking. > > This protocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively managing > the queue and prompting people to start speaking. Often in Meetecho I > saw a lot of pauses when the next speaker was clearly waiting for the > chair to declare the speaking token had moved on. This was a particular > problem in the IESG and IAB plenaries where it was never quite clear if > discussion of the previous topic was closed. > > > Another protocol that I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger > and two finger interjections. A one finger interjection has priority on > two fingers but only gets 15 seconds while two fingers gets a minute. > > Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the person > who KNOWS has an authoritative response. > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > There are two opposite problems. > On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to > walk to the microphone, things slow down.  And most WGs are short of > time already.  Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the > point of the exercise in my view. > > Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk > to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness > of a face-to-face meeting. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > >      > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell > >     >> wrote: > >      > > >      > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some > hypothetical tool > >     that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe > on their > >     phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? > > > >     I would expect that he's asking essentially for two > mechanisms to be > >     active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in > >     MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual > >     queue. From a chairing perspective, I think that could work by > >     having people join the queue online at will, and maintain a > >     relatively short line at the physical mike. That depends, of > course, > >     on people speaking when recognized, which may differ from the > usual > >     mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front of the > line. It > >     might actually help integrate the physical and virtual worlds. > > > > > > Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in > > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up > to speak. > > > > I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up > to say > > something and don't because it has already been pointed out... > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > From nobody Fri Mar 19 14:10:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A023A1078; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:10:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nQs8HIlsp-Ie; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D49BD3A1076; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D26389A1; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id WzzJ5J78JUO2; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF603899E; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BFF1B9; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:10:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" , Jay Daley , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:10:10 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> You asked in your email how we would handle it if the WG chairs for = a WG >> that was meeting couldn't make it. >> >> There are multiple answers to that. We even have established practi= ces. >> One possible approach is to get someone else who is experienced at >> managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the chairs can do m= ost >> of the work remotely. This works better now than it did when practi= ced >> in the past, with our better remote participation. > I'm no expert in this but I understand that what we lack in Meetecho = is what > is known in the trade as remote "floor control," which both WebEx and= Zoom have. > So I think Jay's second question needs a sub-question: > - what are the minimum technical requirements for effective remote ch= airing? meetecho does let chairs turn off people's mics, and I think we can turn off their cameras. What else do we need? How a remote chair can turn off the mic in the room is perhaps the question. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmBVEywACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV91Qf9E7MmEQ++T4sy+RpurEifaNJhApi599ydXWKbhU7qEKH0W3eRsJ2CgGjJ sCLTYt83RRRqbNtqByCWpqR5K0t3EODmve3pk3GHwoMwrQyRptAM2BUvRm77J6/F Rpb6WnEipH0RJt+kPBYakZSd7yJzRc8cUWcL8GBXdoBibAjfC51nTLqkSGv7tIWa YGNiJrZq3R8y93kVfYxKpHqJI3NuTJ8oMCh2bad6ZzncYN/q1xf5Xjh/szIc7JQS 4Bfe28xr8cnqPQE2BVseV9b9g91nehwFgWYoxvTrItaK3riQzCMpZPALqFfh5L1Y ujIoVeGfIR62ARGC6MCxm/OnDrnrnw== =JMLA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 14:13:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E843A1093; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:13:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jrr1aV1-bA9H; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB0AB3A108F; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86400389A1; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id GPWdp3dV9XtF; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C575E3899E; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD331B9; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:13:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <649c771d-d182-6158-0aa0-1566f5a82c88@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:13:06 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > Another protocol that I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger= and > two finger interjections. A one finger interjection has priority on t= wo > fingers but only gets 15 seconds while two fingers gets a minute. > Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the perso= n who > KNOWS has an authoritative response. I like this. I also think that in a smaller room, handing two wireless mics around the room is easier than having people form lines. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmBVE9wACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUxQgf+Mkx7Qea//wlGd8YpJSxt8SJyamLEnaknY0l7Ee4aXYfJkoppo9eGJS3H ck3DxrK7rEhCQ2llQ6j7gjMDCVHNXrkStS6TQtBw2knwMGJB50sSOnilUSlbBOQh PgEEoSG1i/6QU5rJ9AqtEwHoisp23p4NW7nADzIpy/6uHGToWgzQYGLRwUBeyzUm p9hnujqjM9Iojh7MBc6QHu0AwZo7VwJy2SUtRoXQbsRhcR2Xt49v2LJZfa3dgoWl lIbpPDlJ0Vx00pO0Gx3Lhdb7U7bFZd37uO7+zFcgcrTBsxBBxPZUoH3rFPYSa0FG TB3ByafI4hvnrTzMVn/3i3nxc9zztg== =3a9O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 14:19:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9887F3A10C0; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:19:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nHvugLzo97Ol; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 571C93A10BF; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id x7-20020a17090a2b07b02900c0ea793940so7329052pjc.2; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:19:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=exVFA+xEVHQeMpf9P1vdm41qAdmz1TfsWW0xjr+w+1E=; b=Tow08p4LDL6R0mLRe8Bdw5XLKAkm+uU1vNUUmVXGCqOdAITWVBZGRsS2KWvJ2b4hb9 Oz800lR7PyYyd1dmGi71l+GXNdVQqclfweh5R3ShdB3E+J6LwTqjFsfz56mXaiYXlkLT s34Hy5UPtNylbjNgS2/eRPrpW0sR8dJEPEBSDt3kWVfa5QYTitR3+arfDlJ7oa4P0Skw Zzvy9SSwrvO+VDb81jZ+f/7hNk8lDGqM0p8uWWiWrPTCFWn6Qqyc5CJ2woRxleAIJ66U WUd2febiapE89gr/4yrXOitO/p4ZN9xW2DrrCNV+g++YETW9Gh9MyJ+vDGo5LV5vUOeK SBHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=exVFA+xEVHQeMpf9P1vdm41qAdmz1TfsWW0xjr+w+1E=; b=j+uok6btXk/Z2oeyewl+drUShudDVerA5SQaZbLtxrzSbKJVOwTcAmXV7VEQm6hSBY euWcSBgQy4FvEZGfCo8XVOmIMoJoA4hBZYHK9DUiF3Ypo2Bapv1UyP3dKQzZm1qx5X9u dwaUZRY93ZB/sH7XaStKihaV2X/MP1z4v5QOH0kUUnNLAp18QRYqw+W8j4u3RSYDESVj Kk/8fMzmpOgwg5ByI+EjaaJvc2pRHPyQ4lTay+n/AyDyY6YTz1eNKWfx5x3qLV1dk90Q l2VhqDaWRBN0mgGuOk0aJhJeD/ZKpJsjeyElaK1fkBq8Vzlbh0DKdSnnXUnaFfeZWxDz wG5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531LXoHiI+BeGxU6dAf3dLU5RA8/9tCWhCp7mnmgPF0idF1AnONk +ZkqSzCFPFnNDTY7d+k/8rs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJziAYC5AgujypcbRcvkD9AENl8Z9S8xnjOxGbz+xPUB9/OIB2vyG0T4nIniVqzlFDhbhXgjXg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b903:: with SMTP id p3mr447666pjr.182.1616188769076; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip68-111-231-227.sd.sd.cox.net. [68.111.231.227]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k10sm6145226pfk.49.2021.03.19.14.19.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:19:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <15EE545F-526A-44D5-B3A5-D5008A556433@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1C6EC4CB-C26F-4FB2-823E-0194C6962E85"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:19:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: <30172.1616188380@localhost> Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker , "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <649c771d-d182-6158-0aa0-1566f5a82c88@joelhalpern.com> <30172.1616188380@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:19:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1C6EC4CB-C26F-4FB2-823E-0194C6962E85 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Mar 19, 2021, at 2:13 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > I also think that in a smaller room, handing two wireless mics around = the > room is easier than having people form lines. Handing a mike around *sometimes* works. In such situations, there is = often a staff person or two moving mikes around - and I'm not sure where = we get the staff person from. --Apple-Mail=_1C6EC4CB-C26F-4FB2-823E-0194C6962E85 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAmBVFV0ACgkQEhdRnd2G P+AH0A/+N/rb0ACvAYjNiZBp2r616vjyRoSFY8lu7YQ7mp7St0LVk1wPN5FC42JV aZEe7rKcWndm4F2uuQRj6sL/x3HXO+AOEt756Cjj/TlflYbhWx0dZO5IPaZb4Dp0 Zw6mWXmeNRB4VKAhVo5PXCQHDQmfEpo/sO1FYyUCGJSOiuroxuHNqt1yaY0PeHpu MhBWkOEXgp8SShkDiAyy5/jxgLxTz1FX0Z988freXXW1Psv4OSRzeMAM0Kn5IydQ rKs8OcQntmfdzgbbXo2lqN1ZowxUuCVY/hZHsbwuFANUtkKjK2i3R5Mw4z++U+Qb nA6Nf3F3zRrbzDpacNY3uU1KrMLXSVi7Ai5eZDNf9Ie6o4PSE977EdfdwFHlJacG VPQ4UChIdZVaQcCSJPrKwoQDHoo8DHiFfAXBRixcwDXWMPGukrirfx37yB/iyu2F 4oG5CQ+geNrMGlLvX6ujdaBpFc4yMmt6dRLsiN71SY5xlcTKUhrsof9ZUP8w8s1W H/etyjk7Hur2sZU6jO3CB2+LZ8Z7FMX+PTpRml44gZtOzbZ60P4lBxTD/ksnTY0p bhNiHaBNx8vkJDwC/Zyh9eTeual9sgx64dQCZwheMyX26X+ooAztUkjeuNwYOP1o OuSOSNYSuamj7HhSaV1Yd9IxOtrxlIYXlmwhZ1Arf9b6sPdRk3E= =k06G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1C6EC4CB-C26F-4FB2-823E-0194C6962E85-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 14:44:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212653A1160; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XaAk76PYWdfh; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f176.google.com (mail-yb1-f176.google.com [209.85.219.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 831523A115F; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f176.google.com with SMTP id h82so7686390ybc.13; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=os6iTi/Lidw6UGdvK00wODkDz8XkRstfWhh3gKGWLp8=; b=kiRD8RWKZy2KYSYLDsUZWIo0GncVh914rY7H3CJwbUNda3tJFfuKQwpiE83K25exFf HmKg7lw4R5bZwK8sTvQBwCw0cAiMaeQ5FDCLQ6Y/NMTbufGHWPaGnulD/hGJ9T2FwK8N iWAEyabgTheaoNsFy9AR6W+5pQM6X6/+zJcmDZ/N5qfSysfqTfVuBCgaT/4pM6VeDhew 4Ru7NJwFMdzkjTscBNxa3bpIfZCTwF59szTbBCJ5lw0eHF+BF1qUrjtxhykeuULBmQkB d8g6/hidGGpnjA9jp+rjXWXg0dXoX/k44f0YTE9fyg3LYScB2yqqGWANw11emHOUbISm 4Dmg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533N689GRXILvi+kWdMOCpiRPfoKaEeg/YXfFLCXptqSoVxAwjEl Zt+MDQ6sBT86jGQPJnSMu48GLKWjpEu6jaWOdDk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxY7yZjFNXBvsj3k4DOsrI1hVy2aI7paifzK6A08B00FdMOKSWnYO+BzbSvkH28KHAENYdnrAITLBbz/bBP+Ao= X-Received: by 2002:a25:a0cd:: with SMTP id i13mr9345806ybm.302.1616190270669; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:44:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <29479.1616188204@localhost> In-Reply-To: <29479.1616188204@localhost> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:44:19 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" , Jay Daley , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f908ab05bdea9e57" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:44:33 -0000 --000000000000f908ab05bdea9e57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 5:10 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> You asked in your email how we would handle it if the WG chairs for > a WG > >> that was meeting couldn't make it. > >> > >> There are multiple answers to that. We even have established > practices. > >> One possible approach is to get someone else who is experienced at > >> managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the chairs can do > most > >> of the work remotely. This works better now than it did when > practiced > >> in the past, with our better remote participation. > > > I'm no expert in this but I understand that what we lack in Meetecho > is what > > is known in the trade as remote "floor control," which both WebEx > and Zoom have. > > So I think Jay's second question needs a sub-question: > > - what are the minimum technical requirements for effective remote > chairing? > > meetecho does let chairs turn off people's mics, and I think we can turn > off > their cameras. > What else do we need? > The ability to add people into the queue when they stick their hand up. This doesn't work too well in zoom because the button used to raise your hand is buried deeper in the menus than Jimmy Hoffa under Wriggley field.. --000000000000f908ab05bdea9e57 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 5:10 PM Michael Richardson = <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>= ; wrote:

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> You asked in your email how we would handle it if th= e WG chairs for a WG
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> that was meeting couldn't make it.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> There are multiple answers to that.=C2=A0 We even ha= ve established practices.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> One possible approach is to get someone else who is = experienced at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> managing a room to handle the in-room parts, and the= chairs can do most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> of the work remotely.=C2=A0 This works better now th= an it did when practiced
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> in the past, with our better remote participation.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I'm no expert in this but I understand that what we = lack in Meetecho is what
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > is known in the trade as remote "floor control,&quo= t; which both WebEx and Zoom have.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So I think Jay's second question needs a sub-questio= n:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - what are the minimum technical requirements for effect= ive remote chairing?

meetecho does let chairs turn off people's mics, and I think we can tur= n off
their cameras.
What else do we need?

The ability to add people into the queue w= hen they stick their hand up.

This doesn't work too well in zoom because the button used to rais= e your hand is buried deeper in the menus than Jimmy Hoffa under Wriggley f= ield..
--000000000000f908ab05bdea9e57-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 14:49:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD133A117F; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:49:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MVwfhkTso4_q; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f178.google.com (mail-yb1-f178.google.com [209.85.219.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDFC93A117E; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f178.google.com with SMTP id b10so7758420ybn.3; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:49:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cFJF6DaKJULu71Lm0Gf7sQsVYOXnJTeLKxi+/TiGLco=; b=UzW1/aX5Urz2joVx44Z4bTnj83kQq6fGi3U0HCRv96xGkhlr4sEyainRnalI6X+u27 zLp+e99rZPDQq2iBE+rP94CDSUIJu5Cq0GksSP8dUkViJXDMMl+4dHf5sd/6rAz3xezJ Ex0mPbAYo4352XoEm1C+KRs3YcVXFeoOVT+jcTOAWW8iWrAiafZ9TgstmEmJs4S3EJ4B 0HZg2B3Mun6AGXyBFBPhzJiUml3f62YM7y760ddhWhmORyW6OZNZWbz1+bLv2k9Ji/d7 KfatECX6X8wsxPtbMswaSpEZ9O/ZyocbAzGyKH/vY2Tn28AizgjlPFlqAxxWFw4FOMwe r6Kg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532W7z2l7nlntIwSkwRIvqV++cl/sUXZ0Ypc/SaC92ArNufqEAqk qFbQwlPYx694eTkcMOA+5Fn0GzUsvPrtlltyND8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyC+d6uLjU19DUhza9AOPzId385E9khC6fbSR/1z+nFUHpNA+UrxeOftf3rmacPKxABrU9eyLYEPRMa095OLHI= X-Received: by 2002:a25:a0cd:: with SMTP id i13mr9370290ybm.302.1616190576202; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:49:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <649c771d-d182-6158-0aa0-1566f5a82c88@joelhalpern.com> <30172.1616188380@localhost> <15EE545F-526A-44D5-B3A5-D5008A556433@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <15EE545F-526A-44D5-B3A5-D5008A556433@gmail.com> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:49:25 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: Michael Richardson , "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002f16a005bdeab1f3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:49:40 -0000 --0000000000002f16a005bdeab1f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 5:19 PM Fred Baker wrote: > > > > On Mar 19, 2021, at 2:13 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > > > > I also think that in a smaller room, handing two wireless mics around the > > room is easier than having people form lines. > > Handing a mike around *sometimes* works. In such situations, there is > often a staff person or two moving mikes around - and I'm not sure where we > get the staff person from. > I would like a WifFi enabled mic with the following capabilities: 1) Sound in (over the WiFi) 2) Sound out so the speaker can hear questions from the chair. (Also WiFi) 3) Lights up when it is the speaker's turn to talk 4) Flashes when the speaker's time is running out 5) Light goes out when it has run out 6) Microphone starts vibrating violently if they continue to speak 7) Shock If the Microphone is embedded in a softish ball-like object, it could be thrown to the next speaker. --0000000000002f16a005bdeab1f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 5:19 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wr= ote:


> On Mar 19, 2021, at 2:13 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wr= ote:
>
> I also think that in a smaller room, handing two wireless mics around = the
> room is easier than having people form lines.

Handing a mike around *sometimes* works. In such situations, there is often= a staff person or two moving mikes around - and I'm not sure where we = get the staff person from.


I would like a WifFi e= nabled mic with the following capabilities:

1) Sound in (over the WiFi)
2) Sound out so the speaker can hear ques= tions from the chair. (Also WiFi)
3) Lights up when it is the speaker's turn to talk=
4) Flashes whe= n the speaker's time is running out
5) Light goes out when it has run out
6) Microphone starts vibrat= ing violently if they continue to speak
7) Shock <thats enough functions - ed.>


If the Microphone is embedded in a soft= ish ball-like object, it could be thrown to the next speaker.
--0000000000002f16a005bdeab1f3-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 16:03:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6803A132A; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:03:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TotfrCizmL5n; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leas1.unina.it (fmvip.unina.it [192.132.34.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AEA43A1326; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.unina.it (smtp1.unina.it [192.132.34.61]) by leas1.unina.it with ESMTP id 12JN3W4t027269-12JN3W4v027269 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=CAFAIL); Sat, 20 Mar 2021 00:03:32 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.246] ([2.237.150.174]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.unina.it (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-3) with ESMTPSA id 12JN3mBF015479 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 20 Mar 2021 00:03:48 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-EF7B4CC2-5788-4A9F-B1EE-148F46B4AD8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Pietro Romano Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 00:03:31 +0100 Message-Id: References: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Phillip Hallam-Baker X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18D52) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.101.4 at smtp1 X-Virus-Status: Clean Authentication-Results: leas1.unina.it; spf=pass (unina.it: domain of spromano@unina.it designates 192.132.34.61 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=spromano@unina.it Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 23:03:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail-EF7B4CC2-5788-4A9F-B1EE-148F46B4AD8A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, just to throw one more stone in the lake of discussion, I=E2=80=99d like you= to know that we at Meetecho share an old passion for floor control and mode= ration. Quite a long ago we proposed an experiment at the IETF, which is qui= te in line with some of the comments I saw today on this mailing list. A hig= h-level overview of that work can be found in the following paper: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7081100 a freely accessible preprint of which is also available here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275061288_UMPIRE_A_universal_modera= tor_for_the_participation_in_IETF_remote_events Many things have changed in the last few years technology- and protocol-wise= . Yet, the core concept behind the architecture we proposed at that time mig= ht still be worth a try. Cheers, Simon Inviato da iPhone > Il giorno 19 mar 2021, alle ore 19:37, Phillip Hallam-Baker ha scritto: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > The protocol I was suggesting was=20 >=20 > To speak > 1) Add yourself to the queue > 2) If you are one of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, go to the= mic > 3) If you are the first person, start speaking. >=20 > This protocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively managing the= queue and prompting people to start speaking. Often in Meetecho I saw a lot= of pauses when the next speaker was clearly waiting for the chair to declar= e the speaking token had moved on. This was a particular problem in the IESG= and IAB plenaries where it was never quite clear if discussion of the previ= ous topic was closed. >=20 >=20 > Another protocol that I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger and t= wo finger interjections. A one finger interjection has priority on two finge= rs but only gets 15 seconds while two fingers gets a minute. >=20 > Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the person who= KNOWS has an authoritative response.=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpern wro= te: >> There are two opposite problems. >> On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to=20 >> walk to the microphone, things slow down. And most WGs are short of=20 >> time already. Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the=20= >> point of the exercise in my view. >>=20 >> Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk=20= >> to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness=20= >> of a face-to-face meeting. >>=20 >> Yours, >> Joel >>=20 >> On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker > > > wrote: >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell > > > wrote: >> > > >> > > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical too= l >> > that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on thei= r >> > phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? >> >=20 >> > I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to b= e >> > active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in >> > MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual >> > queue. =46rom a chairing perspective, I think that could work by >> > having people join the queue online at will, and maintain a >> > relatively short line at the physical mike. That depends, of course= , >> > on people speaking when recognized, which may differ from the usual= >> > mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front of the line. It >> > might actually help integrate the physical and virtual worlds. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in=20= >> > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to spea= k. >> >=20 >> > I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to say= =20 >> > something and don't because it has already been pointed out... >> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --Apple-Mail-EF7B4CC2-5788-4A9F-B1EE-148F46B4AD8A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone,

just to t= hrow one more stone in the lake of discussion, I=E2=80=99d like you to know t= hat we at Meetecho share an old passion for floor control and moderation. Qu= ite a long ago we proposed an experiment at the IETF, which is quite in line= with some of the comments I saw today on this mailing list. A high-level ov= erview of that work can be found in the following paper:


a freely access= ible preprint of which is also available here:


ht= tps://www.researchgate.net/publication/275061288_UMPIRE_A_universal_moderato= r_for_the_participation_in_IETF_remote_events


Many things have= changed in the last few years technology- and protocol-wise. Yet, the core c= oncept behind the architecture we proposed at that time might still be worth= a try.


Cheers,


=

Simon


Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 19 mar 2021, alle ore 19:37, Phillip Hallam-Ba= ker <phill@hallambaker.com> ha scritto:

=EF=BB=BF
The protocol I was suggesting was&= nbsp;

=
To speak
1) Add yourself to the queue=
2) If you are o= ne of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, go to the mic
3) If you are the first pers= on, start speaking.

This pr= otocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively managing the queue an= d prompting people to start speaking. Often in Meetecho I saw a lot of pause= s when the next speaker was clearly waiting for the chair to declare the spe= aking token had moved on. This was a particular problem in the IESG and= IAB plenaries where it was never quite clear if discussion of the previous t= opic was closed.


=
Another protocol that= I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger and two finger interjection= s. A one finger interjection has priority on two fingers but only gets 15 se= conds while two fingers gets a minute.

Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the p= erson who KNOWS has an authoritative response. 


On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpe= rn <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wr= ote:
There are two o= pposite problems.
On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to
walk to the microphone, things slow down.  And most WGs are short of time already.  Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the <= br> point of the exercise in my view.

Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk
= to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness
of a face-to-face meeting.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com
> <mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>      > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell <= ben@nostrum.com
= >     <mailto:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote:
>      >
>      > Is that all or nothing? For example, would som= e hypothetical tool
>     that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue= (maybe on their
>     phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem?=
>
>     I would expect that he's asking essentially for two m= echanisms to be
>     active - both a physical line at the mike, and a vir= tual line in
>     MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also i= n a virtual
>     queue. =46rom a chairing perspective, I think that c= ould work by
>     having people join the queue online at will, and mai= ntain a
>     relatively short line at the physical mike. That dep= ends, of course,
>     on people speaking when recognized, which may differ= from the usual
>     mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front o= f the line. It
>     might actually help integrate the physical and virtu= al worlds.
>
>
> Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to spea= k.
>
> I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to say=
> something and don't because it has already been pointed out...
>
_______________________________________________
Manyco= uches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
http= s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
<= /div>= --Apple-Mail-EF7B4CC2-5788-4A9F-B1EE-148F46B4AD8A-- From nobody Fri Mar 19 19:15:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C163A177C; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 19:15:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w9XAe7k6vJWx; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 19:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B0DC3A0E29; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 19:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12ADC3899A; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id PxNGXekSgZzw; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB94538998; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDCA1B9; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:15:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Phillip Hallam-Baker cc: Fred Baker , "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <649c771d-d182-6158-0aa0-1566f5a82c88@joelhalpern.com> <30172.1616188380@localhost> <15EE545F-526A-44D5-B3A5-D5008A556433@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 02:15:48 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > I would like a WifFi enabled mic with the following capabilities: ... > If the Microphone is embedded in a softish ball-like object, it could= be > thrown to the next speaker. I think it was Linux Plumbers conference that had one of these. It was very nice to use. I don't recall if it was wifi or not, but they were not cheap. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmBVWs4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXehQf9FWsorzqS4K3abUIahkOsije9dG6L0rUFRG4dVXvmYiHTd/IAajCIQtum jSGvypW5VnXfdfEcsBn2ii0PEaA5gwY0KNntcMPrR9mWt9LPCemK659wDsv1w21D n0YpR0+D2cyQWeX9Mi43F5rZENUd3AweE4O+zIiKLq3GMy60AOJ0Lb3ARNP6hF3q xy3TQb8bm6st+kfIfrPBOPGIvk4ZC6AIv5jUohr7s7THe0NqucL3+fRRwCS1bOGZ XqGspSnpAa3oCAZh6cyRiE6iVDJOoZn/TVeCgkqrV8KzivB73L2+WW1VEqwPZrAJ F+KZeE2zuqC9htMxRu3+NREIKZBj+Q== =HJJc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Mar 20 05:31:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46743A2138; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 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bh=lwyFs0XgVG+UAXR+sE85IKhDhshAUqdfidGknEu8HFE=; b=LypqBnTyUndoG JKqtm01eDBmZpeGaXtWtT3W17IIy/u+VW/qNxdKzVD0D/q0q2xa4Rx7rJKPzbnmX bGHO+DzZuwjMqvPlqqkHWqtTsAYjykvmLknyemJ//lD846WEDkg5+9cUPh5XCEbZ ykpOiPrCuGD4AdG467mFgdCjUaPb+I= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:53:04 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:53:04 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.145] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50000553358.msg; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:53:03 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:68cd:d714:22c3:cfb9 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.145] X-MDArrival-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:53:03 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1713df40b4=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.47.21031401 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:52:58 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: CC: Message-ID: <0C7E27B7-9F02-4BBA-BF18-52928919EC1A@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] [admin-discuss] Hybrid IETF meetings References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> <37DB6F72-D23E-4CEE-A2A4-A558A061FBE3@gmail.com> <7be44bca-900e-a60c-8b2e-42886d0db578@gmail.com> <9E8E95D1-5ED1-4CE9-B13C-97249ECB5636@nostrum.com> <19868b57-f3c7-b338-aecc-0e9f31fab5d9@joelhalpern.com> <3A55A1A2-3EEF-4DF1-B201-C5F6CEEE0523@consulintel.es> <08B4C038-B8D7-481B-988E-73DC4146FA30@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <08B4C038-B8D7-481B-988E-73DC4146FA30@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:53:10 -0000 > On Mar 19, 2021, at 8:16 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > Understood! > > I guess we may want to consider both. Having a virtual mic instead of just a virtual queue, could allow saving audio equipment and setup costs. There will be issues with remote rooms that are internally f2f among several participants. Does each participant get a "mike", or does the room? -> both could work, but I guess that having no mike in the room is easier for the management of the queue, even for the case of "only-remote" chairs. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7B2DgifHIg5Gx8njwOR5DPI8SjbEv3DlJCoZhBlwRxc=; b=O9lxJYSgGLWrgsrur857a1eBZXONEcY/+MWwYlVQqCIkzHSgcGPkw+SNrTAxdrMGoa ea82dktDp0MIJQSvIrVi+bFiE8hnhGRZt4k2hziSF+Gb0qaqcEA+hCtf8WX0nOdv0k7G ZwqRtdVK9Sl6qolIl26FRsF/9ACug1huYd05pk9Dsf4HCB+2DkMqv5WFhR/wsdtpoXUn X/feMSYuIu6mo7XxdvLNbCAhaG/vjL2/B4jfQdfyJN5nuULaIo+9ZzNpheF4ZFM0WJoY Tq+7gNcXyDkULhYNtdyu813cFZQ08MARsHAX4VeAAHmoe4Vt0QDYBDPkmdXx3Ky3Za4c aKJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531nMlfrUHA0r9EH9JgjEby9eMd9UJpkvMbTzzo/Z9osRFnNNtRW op82YCohZjFcrGZZi0j+XCIjaobiRXXaSBZHTyw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyS31d1GA0X7oSRtPk4VkHwlUMcrkP/DUdc5LqJJ5ZvSm+PKqluknFygpRc/wgK7ZexiOs1TPQC9iquy5AnHcc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:50d8:: with SMTP id e207mr13490940ybb.56.1616257963120; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:32:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:32:32 -0400 Message-ID: To: Simon Pietro Romano Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c1dbb505bdfa61e7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:32:47 -0000 --000000000000c1dbb505bdfa61e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The fact that we have Meetecho representatives in this discussion is significant. A lot of the time, I see pushback on proposals of the form 'but we don't want a one off' or 'Meetecho can't do that' The reason I spent time talking to my customers and especially the expert ones was to find out what sort of features we should be adding to products. What I am seeing here is a need for a hybrid meeting configuration which is more or less standard meetecho except that people register as in person or remote and when an in person attendee's turn comes up to speak, its the video and audio from the mic line that is shown. On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:03 PM Simon Pietro Romano wrote: > Hello everyone, > > just to throw one more stone in the lake of discussion, I=E2=80=99d like = you to > know that we at Meetecho share an old passion for floor control and > moderation. Quite a long ago we proposed an experiment at the IETF, which > is quite in line with some of the comments I saw today on this mailing > list. A high-level overview of that work can be found in the following > paper: > > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7081100 > > a freely accessible preprint of which is also available here: > > > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275061288_UMPIRE_A_universal_mod= erator_for_the_participation_in_IETF_remote_events > > > Many things have changed in the last few years technology- and > protocol-wise. Yet, the core concept behind the architecture we proposed = at > that time might still be worth a try. > > > Cheers, > > > Simon > > > Inviato da iPhone > > Il giorno 19 mar 2021, alle ore 19:37, Phillip Hallam-Baker < > phill@hallambaker.com> ha scritto: > > =EF=BB=BF > The protocol I was suggesting was > > To speak > 1) Add yourself to the queue > 2) If you are one of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, go to th= e > mic > 3) If you are the first person, start speaking. > > This protocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively managing th= e > queue and prompting people to start speaking. Often in Meetecho I saw a l= ot > of pauses when the next speaker was clearly waiting for the chair to > declare the speaking token had moved on. This was a particular problem in > the IESG and IAB plenaries where it was never quite clear if discussion o= f > the previous topic was closed. > > > Another protocol that I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger and > two finger interjections. A one finger interjection has priority on two > fingers but only gets 15 seconds while two fingers gets a minute. > > Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the person wh= o > KNOWS has an authoritative response. > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > >> There are two opposite problems. >> On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to >> walk to the microphone, things slow down. And most WGs are short of >> time already. Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the >> point of the exercise in my view. >> >> Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk >> to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness >> of a face-to-face meeting. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker > > > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell > > > wrote: >> > > >> > > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical to= ol >> > that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on the= ir >> > phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? >> > >> > I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to = be >> > active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in >> > MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual >> > queue. From a chairing perspective, I think that could work by >> > having people join the queue online at will, and maintain a >> > relatively short line at the physical mike. That depends, of cours= e, >> > on people speaking when recognized, which may differ from the usua= l >> > mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front of the line. It >> > might actually help integrate the physical and virtual worlds. >> > >> > >> > Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in >> > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to >> speak. >> > >> > I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to sa= y >> > something and don't because it has already been pointed out... >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > --000000000000c1dbb505bdfa61e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The= fact that we have Meetecho representatives in this discussion is significa= nt.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">A lot of the time, I = see pushback=C2=A0on proposals of the form 'but we don't want a one= off' or 'Meetecho can't do that'

The reason I spent time talking to my customers an= d especially the expert ones was to find out what sort of features we shoul= d be adding to products.

=
What I am = seeing here is a need for a hybrid meeting configuration which is more or l= ess standard meetecho except that people register as in person or remote an= d when an in person attendee's turn comes up to speak, its the video an= d audio from the mic line that is shown.




On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:03 PM Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it> wrote:
Hello = everyone,

just to throw one more stone in the lake of di= scussion, I=E2=80=99d like you to know that we at Meetecho share an old pas= sion for floor control and moderation. Quite a long ago we proposed an expe= riment at the IETF, which is quite in line with some of the comments I saw = today on this mailing list. A high-level overview of that work can be found= in the following paper:


a freely accessible prepri= nt of which is also available here:


https://www.researchgate.net= /publication/275061288_UMPIRE_A_universal_moderator_for_the_participation_i= n_IETF_remote_events


Many things have changed in the last few years technology- and = protocol-wise. Yet, the core concept behind the architecture we proposed at= that time might still be worth a try.


Cheers,


Simon


Inviato da iPhone
=
Il giorno 19 mar 2021, alle ore 19:37, Philli= p Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> ha scritto:

=EF=BB=BF
The protocol I was suggesting = was=C2=A0

<= /div>
To speak
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">1) Add yourself to th= e queue
2) If y= ou are one of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, go to the mic
3) If you are the = first person, start speaking.

This protocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively managing= the queue and prompting people to start speaking. Often in Meetecho I saw = a lot of pauses when the next speaker was clearly waiting for the chair to = declare the speaking token had moved on. This was a particular problem=C2= =A0in the IESG and IAB plenaries where it was never quite clear if discussi= on of the previous topic was closed.


Another protocol that I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger and= two finger interjections. A one finger interjection has priority on two fi= ngers but only gets 15 seconds while two fingers gets a minute.

Quite often a one finger comment can= terminate a rathole if the person who KNOWS has an authoritative response.= =C2=A0


On Fri, Mar = 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
There are two opposite problems. On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to
walk to the microphone, things slow down.=C2=A0 And most WGs are short of <= br> time already.=C2=A0 Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the=
point of the exercise in my view.

Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness
of a face-to-face meeting.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com
> <mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell <= ;ben@nostrum.com >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Is that all or nothing? For example, would so= me hypothetical tool
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that let people add themselves to the meetecho queu= e (maybe on their
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem= ?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would expect that he's asking essentially for= two mechanisms to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0active - both a physical line at the mike, and a vi= rtual line in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also = in a virtual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0queue. From a chairing perspective, I think that co= uld work by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0having people join the queue online at will, and ma= intain a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0relatively short line at the physical mike. That de= pends, of course,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on people speaking when recognized, which may diffe= r from the usual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front = of the line. It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0might actually help integrate the physical and virt= ual worlds.
>
>
> Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in <= br> > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to spe= ak.
>
> I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to sa= y
> something and don't because it has already been pointed out...
>
_______________________________________________
Manyc= ouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
--000000000000c1dbb505bdfa61e7-- From nobody Sat Mar 20 10:59:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DA23A275D; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:59:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ksj9GaNR8-HK; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leas1.unina.it (fmvip.unina.it [192.132.34.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C928F3A2759; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.unina.it (smtp1.unina.it [192.132.34.61]) by leas1.unina.it with ESMTP id 12KHx5A0028516-12KHx5A2028516 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=CAFAIL); Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:59:05 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.246] ([2.237.150.174]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.unina.it (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-3) with ESMTPSA id 12KHxLia021471 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:59:21 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-27D1DEDB-2408-4B9F-B642-4C657FD2D3BF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Pietro Romano Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:59:03 +0100 Message-Id: References: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Phillip Hallam-Baker X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18D52) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.101.4 at smtp1 X-Virus-Status: Clean Authentication-Results: leas1.unina.it; spf=pass (unina.it: domain of spromano@unina.it designates 192.132.34.61 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=spromano@unina.it Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:59:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail-27D1DEDB-2408-4B9F-B642-4C657FD2D3BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > What I am seeing here is a need for a hybrid meeting configuration which i= s more or less standard meetecho except that people register as in person or= remote and when an in person attendee's turn comes up to speak, its the vid= eo and audio from the mic line that is shown. The system we had before the pandemic was already =E2=80=9Cclose=E2=80=9D to= that: we had a remotely controllable camera installed in each and every bre= akout room, whose feed was injected into the Meetecho virtual room for the b= enefit of remote users. We (the Meetecho team lurking behind the scenes at t= he NOC) were actually dynamically switching the in-room camera view among sp= eaker, chairs and mic lines. Right before The COVID era jumped on us all, to= gether with the IETF leasership we had already planned to add one more camer= a per breakout room, in order to have a dedicated view of the mic lines that= could be injected into the Meetecho room every time there were people at th= e mic. I think this can be easily implemented and might be deployed as soon a= s we=E2=80=99re (at least partially) back to normal. Cheers, Simon P.S. audio has never been a problem, since we were taking all feeds directly= from the mixer (that was managing remote users connected to Meetecho as wel= l). Inviato da iPhone > Il giorno 20 mar 2021, alle ore 17:32, Phillip Hallam-Baker ha scritto: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > The fact that we have Meetecho representatives in this discussion is signi= ficant. >=20 > A lot of the time, I see pushback on proposals of the form 'but we don't w= ant a one off' or 'Meetecho can't do that' >=20 > The reason I spent time talking to my customers and especially the expert o= nes was to find out what sort of features we should be adding to products. >=20 >=20 > What I am seeing here is a need for a hybrid meeting configuration which i= s more or less standard meetecho except that people register as in person or= remote and when an in person attendee's turn comes up to speak, its the vid= eo and audio from the mic line that is shown. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:03 PM Simon Pietro Romano wr= ote: >> Hello everyone, >>=20 >> just to throw one more stone in the lake of discussion, I=E2=80=99d like y= ou to know that we at Meetecho share an old passion for floor control and mo= deration. Quite a long ago we proposed an experiment at the IETF, which is q= uite in line with some of the comments I saw today on this mailing list. A h= igh-level overview of that work can be found in the following paper: >>=20 >> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7081100 >>=20 >> a freely accessible preprint of which is also available here: >>=20 >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275061288_UMPIRE_A_universal_mod= erator_for_the_participation_in_IETF_remote_events >>=20 >> Many things have changed in the last few years technology- and protocol-w= ise. Yet, the core concept behind the architecture we proposed at that time m= ight still be worth a try. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> Simon >>=20 >> Inviato da iPhone >>=20 >>> Il giorno 19 mar 2021, alle ore 19:37, Phillip Hallam-Baker ha scritto: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> The protocol I was suggesting was=20 >>>=20 >>> To speak >>> 1) Add yourself to the queue >>> 2) If you are one of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, go to t= he mic >>> 3) If you are the first person, start speaking. >>>=20 >>> This protocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively managing t= he queue and prompting people to start speaking. Often in Meetecho I saw a l= ot of pauses when the next speaker was clearly waiting for the chair to decl= are the speaking token had moved on. This was a particular problem in the IE= SG and IAB plenaries where it was never quite clear if discussion of the pre= vious topic was closed. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Another protocol that I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger an= d two finger interjections. A one finger interjection has priority on two fi= ngers but only gets 15 seconds while two fingers gets a minute. >>>=20 >>> Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the person w= ho KNOWS has an authoritative response.=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpern wr= ote: >>>> There are two opposite problems. >>>> On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to=20= >>>> walk to the microphone, things slow down. And most WGs are short of=20= >>>> time already. Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the=20= >>>> point of the exercise in my view. >>>>=20 >>>> Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk= =20 >>>> to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness=20= >>>> of a face-to-face meeting. >>>>=20 >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>>=20 >>>> On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >>>> >=20 >>>> >=20 >>>> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker >>> > > wrote: >>>> >=20 >>>> >=20 >>>> >=20 >>>> > > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell >>> > > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some hypothetical t= ool >>>> > that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue (maybe on th= eir >>>> > phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? >>>> >=20 >>>> > I would expect that he's asking essentially for two mechanisms to= be >>>> > active - both a physical line at the mike, and a virtual line in >>>> > MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a virtual >>>> > queue. =46rom a chairing perspective, I think that could work by >>>> > having people join the queue online at will, and maintain a >>>> > relatively short line at the physical mike. That depends, of cour= se, >>>> > on people speaking when recognized, which may differ from the usu= al >>>> > mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front of the line. I= t >>>> > might actually help integrate the physical and virtual worlds. >>>> >=20 >>>> >=20 >>>> > Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in=20= >>>> > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to sp= eak. >>>> >=20 >>>> > I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to s= ay=20 >>>> > something and don't because it has already been pointed out... >>>> >=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --Apple-Mail-27D1DEDB-2408-4B9F-B642-4C657FD2D3BF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What I am seeing here is a need for a hybrid meeting configurat= ion which is more or less standard meetecho except that people register as i= n person or remote and when an in person attendee's turn comes up to speak, i= ts the video and audio from the mic line that is shown.

The system we had before the pandemic was already =E2=80= =9Cclose=E2=80=9D to that: we had a remotely controllable camera installed i= n each and every breakout room, whose feed was injected into the Meetecho vi= rtual room for the benefit of remote users. We (the Meetecho team lurking be= hind the scenes at the NOC) were actually dynamically switching the in-room c= amera view among speaker, chairs and mic lines. Right before The COVID era j= umped on us all, together with the IETF leasership we had already planned to= add one more camera per breakout room, in order to have a dedicated view of= the mic lines that could be injected into the Meetecho room every time ther= e were people at the mic. I think this can be easily implemented and might b= e deployed as soon as we=E2=80=99re (at least partially) back to normal.

Cheers,

Simon

P.S. audio has never been a problem, since we were taking a= ll feeds directly from the mixer (that was managing remote users connected t= o Meetecho as well).

Inviato da i= Phone

Il giorno 20 mar 2= 021, alle ore 17:32, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> ha s= critto:

=EF=BB=BF
The fact that we have Meetecho representatives in this discussion is s= ignificant.

=
A lot of the ti= me, I see pushback on proposals of the form 'but we don't want a one of= f' or 'Meetecho can't do that'

The reason I spent time talking to my customers and especially the exper= t ones was to find out what sort of features we should be adding to products= .


What I am seeing here is a need for a= hybrid meeting configuration which is more or less standard meetecho except= that people register as in person or remote and when an in person attendee'= s turn comes up to speak, its the video and audio from the mic line that is s= hown.

=



On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7= :03 PM Simon Pietro Romano <spromano= @unina.it> wrote:
Hello everyone,

just to throw on= e more stone in the lake of discussion, I=E2=80=99d like you to know that we= at Meetecho share an old passion for floor control and moderation. Quite a l= ong ago we proposed an experiment at the IETF, which is quite in line with s= ome of the comments I saw today on this mailing list. A high-level overview o= f that work can be found in the following paper:

htt= ps://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7081100

a fre= ely accessible preprint of which is also available here:


https://www.res= earchgate.net/publication/275061288_UMPIRE_A_universal_moderator_for_the_par= ticipation_in_IETF_remote_events


Many things have changed in the last few years technol= ogy- and protocol-wise. Yet, the core concept behind the architecture we pro= posed at that time might still be worth a try.


Cheers,


Simon


Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 19 mar 2021, alle ore 19:37, Phill= ip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> ha scritto:

=EF=BB=BF
The protocol I was suggesting was&= nbsp;

=
To speak
1) Add yourself to the queue=
2) If you are o= ne of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, go to the mic
3) If you are the first pers= on, start speaking.

This pr= otocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively managing the queue an= d prompting people to start speaking. Often in Meetecho I saw a lot of pause= s when the next speaker was clearly waiting for the chair to declare the spe= aking token had moved on. This was a particular problem in the IESG and= IAB plenaries where it was never quite clear if discussion of the previous t= opic was closed.


=
Another protocol that= I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one finger and two finger interjection= s. A one finger interjection has priority on two fingers but only gets 15 se= conds while two fingers gets a minute.

Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the p= erson who KNOWS has an authoritative response. 


On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpe= rn <jmh@joelhalp= ern.com> wrote:
There are two opposite problems.
On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then have to
walk to the microphone, things slow down.  And most WGs are short of time already.  Particularly short of time for discussion, which is the <= br> point of the exercise in my view.

Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that they can talk
= to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the effectiveness
of a face-to-face meeting.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com
> <mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>      > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell <= ben@nostrum.com
= >     <mailto:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote:
>      >
>      > Is that all or nothing? For example, would som= e hypothetical tool
>     that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue= (maybe on their
>     phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem?=
>
>     I would expect that he's asking essentially for two m= echanisms to be
>     active - both a physical line at the mike, and a vir= tual line in
>     MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also i= n a virtual
>     queue. =46rom a chairing perspective, I think that c= ould work by
>     having people join the queue online at will, and mai= ntain a
>     relatively short line at the physical mike. That dep= ends, of course,
>     on people speaking when recognized, which may differ= from the usual
>     mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front o= f the line. It
>     might actually help integrate the physical and virtu= al worlds.
>
>
> Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put themselves in > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are next up to spea= k.
>
> I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I get up to say=
> something and don't because it has already been pointed out...
>
_______________________________________________
Manyco= uches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
<= /div>
= --Apple-Mail-27D1DEDB-2408-4B9F-B642-4C657FD2D3BF-- From nobody Sat Mar 20 11:07:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0D73A2796; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:07:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PXQeN7REs_vL; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AE803A2795; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2pdR0yPLz6G9S1; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:07:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1616263659; bh=NhO2oVTHthNKBE/B+qylrOPhOEEgInQ1C3FKmqNFUzw=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Aq8niLRBr4hEjRZAnzGO1i11a/hyzyKvFcWfAzITcsFoSHIsJnWGh+uJ88W6Jmuye 9DLRC+LPzTCSiUNnzQShXLvXGUnAXneIGsXrPBEOccKSeY/JoudJHsTED7r/Y7C1Iv rDdNdWt9pDjF68F2mDnq/uHriyDfl5JpRHei85rg= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F2pdQ3hw2z6G9RX; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:07:38 -0700 (PDT) To: Simon Pietro Romano Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <777c0906-85bc-fcd8-9817-0267f62d9473@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:07:37 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:07:42 -0000 Thank you for all your efforts. I really appreciate it. It is also nice hta the number of cameras per room is not an issue. (I suspect my head is stuck 30 years out of date on that technology space.) Yours, Joel On 3/20/2021 1:59 PM, Simon Pietro Romano wrote: > >> What I am seeing here is a need for a hybrid meeting configuration >> which is more or less standard meetecho except that people register as >> in person or remote and when an in person attendee's turn comes up to >> speak, its the video and audio from the mic line that is shown. > > The system we had before the pandemic was already “close” to that: we > had a remotely controllable camera installed in each and every breakout > room, whose feed was injected into the Meetecho virtual room for the > benefit of remote users. We (the Meetecho team lurking behind the scenes > at the NOC) were actually dynamically switching the in-room camera view > among speaker, chairs and mic lines. Right before The COVID era jumped > on us all, together with the IETF leasership we had already planned to > add one more camera per breakout room, in order to have a dedicated view > of the mic lines that could be injected into the Meetecho room every > time there were people at the mic. I think this can be easily > implemented and might be deployed as soon as we’re (at least partially) > back to normal. > > Cheers, > > Simon > > P.S. audio has never been a problem, since we were taking all feeds > directly from the mixer (that was managing remote users connected to > Meetecho as well). > > Inviato da iPhone > >> Il giorno 20 mar 2021, alle ore 17:32, Phillip Hallam-Baker >> ha scritto: >> >>  >> The fact that we have Meetecho representatives in this discussion is >> significant. >> >> A lot of the time, I see pushback on proposals of the form 'but we >> don't want a one off' or 'Meetecho can't do that' >> >> The reason I spent time talking to my customers and especially the >> expert ones was to find out what sort of features we should be adding >> to products. >> >> >> What I am seeing here is a need for a hybrid meeting configuration >> which is more or less standard meetecho except that people register as >> in person or remote and when an in person attendee's turn comes up to >> speak, its the video and audio from the mic line that is shown. >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 7:03 PM Simon Pietro Romano > > wrote: >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> just to throw one more stone in the lake of discussion, I’d like >> you to know that we at Meetecho share an old passion for floor >> control and moderation. Quite a long ago we proposed an experiment >> at the IETF, which is quite in line with some of the comments I >> saw today on this mailing list. A high-level overview of that work >> can be found in the following paper: >> >> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7081100 >> >> >> a freely accessible preprint of which is also available here: >> >> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275061288_UMPIRE_A_universal_moderator_for_the_participation_in_IETF_remote_events >> >> >> >> Many things have changed in the last few years technology- and >> protocol-wise. Yet, the core concept behind the architecture we >> proposed at that time might still be worth a try. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Simon >> >> >> Inviato da iPhone >> >>> Il giorno 19 mar 2021, alle ore 19:37, Phillip Hallam-Baker >>> > ha scritto: >>> >>>  >>> The protocol I was suggesting was >>> >>> To speak >>> 1) Add yourself to the queue >>> 2) If you are one of the first two people in the Meetecho queue, >>> go to the mic >>> 3) If you are the first person, start speaking. >>> >>> This protocol does work a lot better if the chair is actively >>> managing the queue and prompting people to start speaking. Often >>> in Meetecho I saw a lot of pauses when the next speaker was >>> clearly waiting for the chair to declare the speaking token had >>> moved on. This was a particular problem in the IESG and IAB >>> plenaries where it was never quite clear if discussion of the >>> previous topic was closed. >>> >>> >>> Another protocol that I have seen used a lot at MIT is the one >>> finger and two finger interjections. A one finger interjection >>> has priority on two fingers but only gets 15 seconds while two >>> fingers gets a minute. >>> >>> Quite often a one finger comment can terminate a rathole if the >>> person who KNOWS has an authoritative response. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joel M. Halpern >>> > wrote: >>> >>> There are two opposite problems. >>> On the one hand, if people stay seated until called, and then >>> have to >>> walk to the microphone, things slow down.  And most WGs are >>> short of >>> time already.  Particularly short of time for discussion, >>> which is the >>> point of the exercise in my view. >>> >>> Conversely, having everyone sitting with headsets so that >>> they can talk >>> to their microphone seems to significantly undermine the >>> effectiveness >>> of a face-to-face meeting. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 3/19/2021 2:14 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:00 AM Fred Baker >>> >>> > >> >> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >      > On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Ben Campbell >>> >>> >     >> wrote: >>> >      > >>> >      > Is that all or nothing? For example, would some >>> hypothetical tool >>> >     that let people add themselves to the meetecho queue >>> (maybe on their >>> >     phones) but otherwise interact locally be a problem? >>> > >>> >     I would expect that he's asking essentially for two >>> mechanisms to be >>> >     active - both a physical line at the mike, and a >>> virtual line in >>> >     MeetEcho, and a person in a physical queue is also in a >>> virtual >>> >     queue. From a chairing perspective, I think that could >>> work by >>> >     having people join the queue online at will, and maintain a >>> >     relatively short line at the physical mike. That >>> depends, of course, >>> >     on people speaking when recognized, which may differ >>> from the usual >>> >     mechanism of speaking when you filter to the front of >>> the line. It >>> >     might actually help integrate the physical and virtual >>> worlds. >>> > >>> > >>> > Alternatively, we abandon the mic lines and people put >>> themselves in >>> > queue while seated and only go to the mic when they are >>> next up to speak. >>> > >>> > I think I would prefer that anyway. The number of times I >>> get up to say >>> > something and don't because it has already been pointed out... >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>> >> > From nobody Sat Mar 20 11:08:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF673A279C; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:08:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Miy312GyUd_1; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5CFE3A279A; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD13389A3; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id NYQLKYeuV3Xw; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:13:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BB338981; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:13:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B577240; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:08:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:08:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > What I am seeing here is a need for a hybrid meeting configuration wh= ich is > more or less standard meetecho except that people register as in pers= on or > remote and when an in person attendee's turn comes up to speak, its t= he > video and audio from the mic line that is shown. What I'm hearing is that we don't really want to pass mic's around, and we hate having to run up to the stand-up mic already. There is a reason, I think, that events from my local municipal government = to the UN have a mic at each seat... It seems that if we all have laptops, that we have effectively done that? So, maybe it's the video and audio *out* that we need to suppress for the in-room attendees.... okay... but echo cancellation. I conclude that we need rooms with tables for everyone row. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmBWOg4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXMiQgAoyF/fLyIgvTQxf75262UeVYi9mlgln2ezo71Q8M3ulFD1llrvx3muQ+m u7NrK5UV9IVOYHLD8vcq4o0NJfO/tk41x1B6etItKTtRXoSx2GhRA/GuvMShtUwt QsangTeybiIgLvufdhKS8jnHe0RdFaWi1A0XX7WvHeQ3p2fRpL+XD1ZFkaMJvIi9 Zsm6md+fxbp8qoGVGxMfqZM3xL6O2LsY9tqCQKLvTJmRC7o2uXblOd61ltcVSTEe tROP2iN7A5UTUatiXv/bgixl2O1H/xXUWCmAfV3uV1AIsdU33q8KRoam4RA7nR3e DKzJRXKFluObzOKlNZrHy+3f1sdp1g== =ZKPw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Mar 20 11:54:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02963A2871; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Am3RV1uyZQ65; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69E6F3A286E; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1lNgji-000BEC-JQ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:54:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:54:05 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Stephen Farrell , Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <23F1ED9A4713B1CD7D501163@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <742E1FC8-2097-456D-AECA-9FB0C75191A6@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:54:14 -0000 --On Thursday, March 18, 2021 22:54 +0000 Stephen Farrell wrote: >... > - Generous special handling for last minute changes to travel > restrictions or other pandemic-related last-minute reasons > to not attend f2f might encourage people to register for > f2f attendance? Not sure but maybe think about it. I didn't see anyone comment on that particular suggestion, so... (1) Yes. But... (2) Note the interaction between this, any minimum occupancy guarantees to hotels as Jay mentioned, and perhaps cancellation penalties for airline tickets, etc. In general, our registration fees are a small fraction of the total costs of a week of f2f attendance in a location far enough from "home" to require airplanes. Generous handling of our registration fees, especially for conversion of a f2f fee to a remote participation one, should, in the grand scheme of things, be rather easy. Persuading airline and hotels to be equally generous about last-minute cancellations is probably harder. And persuading a hotel to waive minimum occupancy agreements when last minute cancellations push the number of people we've promised will stay the week in the hotel... well, I'd guess very difficult indeed. john From nobody Sat Mar 20 11:55:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 315303A2875; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:55:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSgGutmRxCt5; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A760D3A2874; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id q11so4506213pld.11; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:55:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=7tnOeiA+gxy/T3BmKw5W7ovOkEJNwHgnEZwy7zgMaNI=; b=AkM2ppzcemGKjZzbs7wk8Y57dQFvYSvyWctR6TivrYAPqRDM7ZLDhw3kCYFVzGyXaK YBaGX9vrFQkq354sZCF4VTEf8RhSZ37UK3kuHC105z8WumSPiEAC1PZMO5bkYkPt8IOV m+T/fjG0c8smiHyv5smKpsbnEzjfb3vUpGQTMft90KTXZpZwLpYsZJn4RS8ULbgwLrQu MZV8JJGai2Y4KFrnWm01yTagpipasWQrqpn11JcBFSTZxo92u5RXanTUz27BV6We4aP+ J2/zSg1+vKCfXHgqUjeDzZ2UwqVlTnt7Jr85hutViNJKmakX36tOoPi4FJ1shNFiq6sJ H68A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=7tnOeiA+gxy/T3BmKw5W7ovOkEJNwHgnEZwy7zgMaNI=; b=qrUkSCmVSw9WZSTuKN8VVBYrH8FEnahvpf4T50NxUiX4oq2lXcLdy4sjh7LOscmm3A 90Ypqb8mTLRt4SjqyzNbLfbH8xfxuvXeH68evGBgaDeb8F1T3wSqcZE8mdNag6prbVoj yaVcyUlZW8FWa+6a1K8mOAscgCDFgq7oVTx1SoAdtmQXu5hoGdTEtujaZwnMVOX5aomO 54j6fg7uYjoAyolwefTJ0sbFSCX4nR/xPy1BRnz8ABpNYHgJkfWOS160dClCMX1pcdG7 YMEOGuoC2ynceSouKSAh/X4rcCmAJ+Q1j+uv+zNEAmSnQh69sEnh4ghSNBKcrKSM4uit bMpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5326L29fEcDKQsBs6v3+5xLZ2QypjMGKQZqUuKQYDx86Eufmqxl0 u9ZeCCbL5q9o1tRztP1tLWU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRPNkGTYueZ3kZ3YKZt5AsbHqNNmsD20pQNdYXE6OXFbkD0xotLHgVfEAkF2HNMVxKKwbCBA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a513:: with SMTP id a19mr4976560pjq.210.1616266524148; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip68-111-231-227.sd.sd.cox.net. [68.111.231.227]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o18sm8701895pji.10.2021.03.20.11.55.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:55:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7F7BD2D6-95EC-446E-B0F8-09C15B8C4FEF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <5943.1616263695@localhost> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:55:22 -0700 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: <486AD4CA-3AC2-4FD8-9094-208944D554E2@gmail.com> References: <5943.1616263695@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18E5178a) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:55:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail-7F7BD2D6-95EC-446E-B0F8-09C15B8C4FEF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Mar 20, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Michael Richardson w= rote: >=20 >=20 > I conclude that we need rooms with tables for everyone row. Possibly. I wonder whether a =E2=80=9Cstudent chair=E2=80=9D along the lines= of https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1alatOVXXXXXdXVXXq6xXFXXXv/Modern-Office-Fu= rniture-Portable-Folding-Staff-Training-Conference-Chair-With-Writing-Board-= Student-Learning-Computer-Chair.jpg would work. I also wonder how that affec= ts cost=E2=80=A6= --Apple-Mail-7F7BD2D6-95EC-446E-B0F8-09C15B8C4FEF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mar 20, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelm= an.ca> wrote:


I conclude that we need rooms with tables for everyone r= ow.

Possibly. I wonder whether a =E2=80=9C= student chair=E2=80=9D along the lines of https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1alatOVXXXXXdXVXXq6xXFXXXv/Mod= ern-Office-Furniture-Portable-Folding-Staff-Training-Conference-Chair-With-W= riting-Board-Student-Learning-Computer-Chair.jpg would work. I also= wonder how that affects cost=E2=80=A6
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Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q1T2agZxfdG6; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B4213A0D47; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1lNl8z-000CqG-1S; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:36:33 -0400 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:36:27 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: "Salz, Rich" , Fred Baker , Michael Richardson cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <624636C3-79F8-4E10-9C99-41DD0AFC61AC@akamai.com> References: <5943.1616263695@localhost> <486AD4CA-3AC2-4FD8-9094-208944D554E2@gmail.com> <624636C3-79F8-4E10-9C99-41DD0AFC61AC@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 23:36:37 -0000 --On Saturday, March 20, 2021 22:30 +0000 "Salz, Rich" wrote: >> I conclude that we need rooms with tables for everyone row. > > Likely to increase cost and limit the places we can go as by > my estimate 2 table rows equal a bit more than three chair > rows. And, if there is a requirement for people to be 1, much less 2, meters apart, the calculation gets even worse (although, at least at 2 meters, there probably would be room for the tables). john From nobody Sat Mar 20 18:13:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4095C3A109D; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:13:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.5 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[ALIBABA_IMG_NOT_RCVD_ALI=2.499, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4tGFpENhO9Tc; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB2493A109A; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096F038995; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 1kHRtnTR2eUA; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E553F38981; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B45E240; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:13:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Fred Baker cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <486AD4CA-3AC2-4FD8-9094-208944D554E2@gmail.com> References: <5943.1616263695@localhost> <486AD4CA-3AC2-4FD8-9094-208944D554E2@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [Manycouches] Hybrid IETF meetings X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 01:13:20 -0000 Fred Baker wrote: >> On Mar 20, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >> >> I conclude that we need rooms with tables for everyone row. > Possibly. I wonder whether a =E2=80=9Cstudent chair=E2=80=9D along th= e lines of https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1alatOVXXXXXdXVXXq6xXFXXXv/Modern-= Office-Furniture-Portable-Folding-Staff-Training-Conference-Chair-With-Writ= ing-Board-Student-Learning-Computer-Chair.jpg would work. I also wonder how= that affects cost=E2=80=A6 oh, I would pay extra to never have to interact with such a thing. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect = [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ From nobody Mon Mar 22 18:16:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56CDE3A18E3; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:16:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Executive Director To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.27.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <161646218179.3353.18312251740227032709@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:16:22 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] IETF Administration LLC December 2020 financial statement X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 01:16:22 -0000 The IETF Administration LLC has just published its December 2020 financial statement [1] and a blog post [2] that explains the very large audit adjustment in that statement (tl;dr nothing to worry about, just the way accountants do things). Please feel to contact me directly if you have any questions regarding IETF LLC finances. [1] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/December_2020_FS.pdf [2] https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-december-2020-financial-statements/ -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Mar 23 06:22:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D3C3A0CEE for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 06:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14WUMRKgUYp5 for ; 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Is the support from ISOC one-off, ie nothing is committed beyond the current three years, or is it a rolling commitment always looking three years out? If a one-off, then presumable next year will show a significant deficit taken from the retained profit that accrued from 2020; and likewise in 2022. If rolling, then the accounts will recognise ISOC income committed for 2023 and look much the same. This may or may be of general interest; feel free to copy it to such as the main ietf list if you think it is. Tom Petch From nobody Tue Mar 23 11:03:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0EC3A0E5C for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:03:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DajCmh1-hx5c; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6255E3A0E52; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:03:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <14F9F2D3-F2C4-43B7-9047-5E2B9B6C1962@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_01165FBC-9A30-405E-939D-D94D168F54EF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 07:03:14 +1300 In-Reply-To: <605A20FE.5010207@btconnect.com> Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: tom petch References: <161646218179.3353.18312251740227032709@ietfa.amsl.com> <605A20FE.5010207@btconnect.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF Administration LLC December 2020 financial statement X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 18:03:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_01165FBC-9A30-405E-939D-D94D168F54EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 24/03/2021, at 6:10 AM, tom petch wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 23/03/2021 01:16, IETF Executive Director wrote: >> The IETF Administration LLC has just published its December 2020 = financial statement [1] and a blog post [2] that explains the very large = audit adjustment in that statement (tl;dr nothing to worry about, just = the way accountants do things). >>=20 >> Please feel to contact me directly if you have any questions = regarding IETF LLC finances. >>=20 >> [1] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/December_2020_FS.pdf >> [2] = https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-december-2020-financial-statements/ >>=20 >=20 > Interesting! >=20 > Is the support from ISOC one-off, ie nothing is committed beyond the = current three years, or is it a rolling commitment always looking three = years out? If a one-off, then presumable next year will show a = significant deficit taken from the retained profit that accrued from = 2020; and likewise in 2022. >=20 > If rolling, then the accounts will recognise ISOC income committed for = 2023 and look much the same. >=20 > This may or may be of general interest; feel free to copy it to such = as the main ietf list if you think it is. There is a review at the three year mark and that stops it from being = considered unconditional at that point. We expect an annual review = afterwards that will then make the accounting look normal. Jay >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_01165FBC-9A30-405E-939D-D94D168F54EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 24/03/2021, at 6:10 AM, tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com> wrote:



On 23/03/2021 01:16, IETF Executive Director = wrote:
The IETF = Administration LLC has just published its December 2020 financial = statement [1] and a blog post [2] that explains the very large audit = adjustment in that statement (tl;dr nothing to worry about, just the way = accountants do things).

Please feel to = contact me directly if you have any questions regarding IETF LLC = finances.

[1]  https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/December_2020_FS.pdf[2]  https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-december-2020-financial-stat= ements/


Interesting!

Is the support from = ISOC one-off, ie nothing is committed beyond the current three years, or = is it a rolling commitment always looking three years out?  If a = one-off, then presumable next year will show a significant deficit taken = from the retained profit that accrued from 2020; and likewise in = 2022.

If rolling, then the accounts will = recognise ISOC income committed for 2023 and look much the same.

This may or may be of general interest; feel = free to copy it to such as the main ietf list if you think it is.

There = is a review at the three year mark and that stops it from being = considered unconditional at that point.  We expect an annual review = afterwards that will then make the accounting look normal.

Jay


Tom Petch

--
admin-discuss mailing = list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_01165FBC-9A30-405E-939D-D94D168F54EF-- From nobody Tue Mar 23 12:33:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B313A128E for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 12:33:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.27.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <161652802267.6681.14035994224076470783@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 12:33:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] LLC Board Annual Strategic Planning Retreat: Ahead of Schedule X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:33:43 -0000 The LLC Board strategic planning retreat is running ten minutes ahead of schedule. If anyone would like to join for the second half of today's session, Fundraising and IASA2 Retrospective Part 2, please join us ten minutes early at 19:45 UTC. Information on the agenda and dial-in details can be found at https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/meeting-info/ From nobody Wed Mar 24 09:58:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533EA3A2F2F; Wed, 24 Mar 2021 09:58:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.27.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <161660510071.20924.3099658409030112551@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 09:58:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC Statement on OFAC Compliance Questions X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:58:22 -0000 Hi – The IETF LLC has today posted a statement on OFAC Compliance questions on our blog at https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-ofac-compliance-questions. Thanks, Jason Livingood Chair, IETF LLC Board LLC-Board-Chair@ietf.org ++++++++++ How to Contact the IETF LLC ++++++++++ Executive Director: Exec-Director@ietf.org Sponsorship: sponsorship@ietf.org Board: LLC-Board@ietf.org ++++++++++ General IETF LLC Board Background ++++++++++ About the IETF LLC: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/ Meeting minutes: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/minutes/ Future meetings: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/meeting-info/ Financial statements: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/financial-statements/ From nobody Wed Mar 24 10:05:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5D53A30DC; Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:05:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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If a one-off, then presumable next year will show a significant deficit taken from the retained profit that accrued from 2020; and likewise in 2022. >> >> If rolling, then the accounts will recognise ISOC income committed for 2023 and look much the same. >> >> This may or may be of general interest; feel free to copy it to such as the main ietf list if you think it is. > > There is a review at the three year mark and that stops it from being considered unconditional at that point. We expect an annual review afterwards that will then make the accounting look normal. > Thank you, yes, that makes perfect sense. Tom Petch > Jay > >> >> Tom Petch >> >> -- >> admin-discuss mailing list >> admin-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >> > From nobody Wed Mar 24 10:56:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F3A3A321F; Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:56:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.27.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <161660860438.26583.16965138815115486043@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:56:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] LLC Board Strategic Retreat Day Two Webex Link X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:56:45 -0000 The second day of the LLC Board Annual Strategic Retreat will begin at the top of the hour. The Webex dial-in information is: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf-en/j.php?MTID=m0b2c9acafd7ab6e25751fa64d3f4bb93 Meeting number (access code): 185 500 9522 Meeting password: 2021 Agenda and details can be found at: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/minutes/2021/ From nobody Tue Mar 30 13:49:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF64B3A0C46 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUqhVBoZcXNN for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F94F3A0C44 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <8BAB60C1-D5A0-422D-9A97-C5892E5F6DAB@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:49:22 +1300 To: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] GitHub Management X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 20:49:28 -0000 Hi RFC 8875 sets out a plan for how GitHub repositories should be managed = and gives the Secretariat and Tools Team various tasks and = responsibilities. As it stands there are two issues with this. One is = the high administrative burden of multiple organisations and = repositories. The second is the limited access to features provided by = the free tier, such as the Audit API, which are useful for tools = integrations. To address this we are in the process of taking up a GitHub Enterprise = license. An enterprise account gives the following features: - access to the Audit API that let=E2=80=99s us pull records of = everything for archiving - allows the creation of unlimited organisations and public repositories = under this account. We can assign whoever we want to manage those = without them requiring a license while the Secretariat remains an owner = for when an admin change is needed. - existing organisations can be included under this account if they = choose to move to the account - all the repositories under the account switch from having their own = local licensing terms to central licensing terms, which will be = https://trustee.ietf.org/license-for-open-source-repositories.html to = comply with RFC 8875 (when that link is fixed) This basically provides the features the Secretariat and Tools Team need = to deliver RFC 8875. It is also quite cheap as we can use the minimum = 10 user license pack provided that we don=E2=80=99t do anything with = private repositories, which would change the licensing dramatically. =20 Please let me know if you have any questions. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Tue Mar 30 16:26:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F6A3A1560; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:26:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I-TWXGbRw_Vn; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BDCC3A155E; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id h20so6962766plr.4; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:26:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=VtZaP1L4xH1QS9W7/QdXUENmZul6FunerL04/uikwT4=; b=PkWssr1JBDqqoLIpeU/TpCg9sZeZbBErKs7ygiUr2UYEQ7IwynaNyZQBOknK9iN+VG 3CJRkXlWKAIZ0VrqXBhuWabyP1NLbhQhvP34sAaKSbQx1WGso2mgkE4TlaWt/QMmktV/ F6Uyd0G0vYa/WinwzJN2I+eOebUP72N6doFc9N2NQuAP3b7Nh8j4iK6HAY4pVtPidhU6 YF5YpzSUMtseM4HtqYhRDY+zoaW+QR7TJWp1LgtU0T8EGyW4JeNOxw5/wReklcRZMloU /NYNfz9tN4hYLPxDI6vCADARYoExMQyXjpi9CJclbQMjaAEZirqHQdgT5mVg76HW/sMA ts6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=VtZaP1L4xH1QS9W7/QdXUENmZul6FunerL04/uikwT4=; b=kl0iupCfAtkeempJPwkYsG56Sgk8TGMzmi9SGHslxOflK+1Fwmv0u9H0qCLfETxml8 OABvxBmq2EFjvBnszBntdcNeA+UvOBqkEeMy2dzggoXdSSc1mBDfRIvzx1Fv3rBsblsr 26qATtkjzGS35cfcW5dvuOktY2TOGgMNv06USybDQgmPOWKI+v1dKHgLSJJV/Fski/Oo WLAGCHV2pn3K38Uc5oE4N24CZ6+8MyEvj4rbnkPkGrhhYf+Be2dV3NsKZe2BCnlliNcp wJ4CPW1Gm1jIRTjrHxdyZ2GXno8jz0PcjyTPubJaszbPdW5ecivvKC31GWKEPW57IC3i UIgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530TZCxlUsMoZTOgIKztK6l/FbgkrtGSAUgJQHHxHmBt50lbKpib PNu9I6yQIo4qtodM7KPYowge2SPzxP4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyU5+YYqO413qJc/0EifGmzJJzMGtMD8RPBgYlt3U8qb4Nxvvgt5HDuoqy/I1x9AS4ostLfvA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:aa4c:b029:e7:32b8:b854 with SMTP id c12-20020a170902aa4cb02900e732b8b854mr638884plr.9.1617146785277; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w17sm284256pgg.41.2021.03.30.16.26.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:26:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <67CC42F3-B0E9-4CFD-B5BC-711F564147F3@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6EDA9D38-0CBA-42A2-9C4F-DBF63BEBAB8F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:26:20 -0700 In-Reply-To: <8BAB60C1-D5A0-422D-9A97-C5892E5F6DAB@ietf.org> Cc: Bob Hinden , admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Jay Daley References: <8BAB60C1-D5A0-422D-9A97-C5892E5F6DAB@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] GitHub Management X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 23:26:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6EDA9D38-0CBA-42A2-9C4F-DBF63BEBAB8F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Jay, > On Mar 30, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Hi >=20 > RFC 8875 sets out a plan for how GitHub repositories should be managed = and gives the Secretariat and Tools Team various tasks and = responsibilities. As it stands there are two issues with this. One is = the high administrative burden of multiple organisations and = repositories. The second is the limited access to features provided by = the free tier, such as the Audit API, which are useful for tools = integrations. >=20 > To address this we are in the process of taking up a GitHub Enterprise = license. An enterprise account gives the following features: >=20 > - access to the Audit API that let=E2=80=99s us pull records of = everything for archiving > - allows the creation of unlimited organisations and public = repositories under this account. We can assign whoever we want to = manage those without them requiring a license while the Secretariat = remains an owner for when an admin change is needed. > - existing organisations can be included under this account if they = choose to move to the account > - all the repositories under the account switch from having their own = local licensing terms to central licensing terms, which will be = https://trustee.ietf.org/license-for-open-source-repositories.html to = comply with RFC 8875 (when that link is fixed) >=20 > This basically provides the features the Secretariat and Tools Team = need to deliver RFC 8875. It is also quite cheap as we can use the = minimum 10 user license pack provided that we don=E2=80=99t do anything = with private repositories, which would change the licensing = dramatically. >=20 > Please let me know if you have any questions. Yes, github does not support IPv6. How is this going to be dealt with? Bob --Apple-Mail=_6EDA9D38-0CBA-42A2-9C4F-DBF63BEBAB8F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmBjs5wACgkQrut0EXfn u6hAtwf+J0Cs7C39ddL/IWg/4NeolgCcftSx4N8dCpfr3+wGT8LFknBRrHmA98r7 kgzQeDIH3zsm+Wl27j9XTrruFQC0QAnN2W4mNAeGK2Q0ZLXs6oa79bFmd/DNbFWX a2gEKUUrVuy8ndtuGmRG2jviR+0PRH/hJwX8cmwuQuj9yIR9K+AtzEnS+CiGFR2Q 2b91NaXUjkb3249fyMoZSTSBQyEe4B+wiBr+Hmtxu7T7bQwA5D7lr4jAoU0jPDEv gA1Xu3dAEF78xzMCJu02W0Dde+RJuvYxYW7XUwln6WnUhWFGqX3S25NaFa5HIxlp klj64c3ObO47osE8dTJAdI+b4dw6YA== =O/aB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6EDA9D38-0CBA-42A2-9C4F-DBF63BEBAB8F-- From nobody Tue Mar 30 16:39:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC0A3A15F4 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:39:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Waqq_1boRgWt; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 698933A15EE; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:38:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B73D1365-48DB-4D7E-BBD7-03CF3A84DC16"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:38:54 +1300 In-Reply-To: <67CC42F3-B0E9-4CFD-B5BC-711F564147F3@gmail.com> Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Bob Hinden References: <8BAB60C1-D5A0-422D-9A97-C5892E5F6DAB@ietf.org> <67CC42F3-B0E9-4CFD-B5BC-711F564147F3@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] GitHub Management X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 23:39:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B73D1365-48DB-4D7E-BBD7-03CF3A84DC16 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 31/03/2021, at 12:26 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Jay, >=20 >> On Mar 30, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> Hi >>=20 >> RFC 8875 sets out a plan for how GitHub repositories should be = managed and gives the Secretariat and Tools Team various tasks and = responsibilities. As it stands there are two issues with this. One is = the high administrative burden of multiple organisations and = repositories. The second is the limited access to features provided by = the free tier, such as the Audit API, which are useful for tools = integrations. >>=20 >> To address this we are in the process of taking up a GitHub = Enterprise license. An enterprise account gives the following features: >>=20 >> - access to the Audit API that let=E2=80=99s us pull records of = everything for archiving >> - allows the creation of unlimited organisations and public = repositories under this account. We can assign whoever we want to = manage those without them requiring a license while the Secretariat = remains an owner for when an admin change is needed. >> - existing organisations can be included under this account if they = choose to move to the account >> - all the repositories under the account switch from having their own = local licensing terms to central licensing terms, which will be = https://trustee.ietf.org/license-for-open-source-repositories.html to = comply with RFC 8875 (when that link is fixed) >>=20 >> This basically provides the features the Secretariat and Tools Team = need to deliver RFC 8875. It is also quite cheap as we can use the = minimum 10 user license pack provided that we don=E2=80=99t do anything = with private repositories, which would change the licensing = dramatically. >>=20 >> Please let me know if you have any questions. >=20 > Yes, github does not support IPv6. How is this going to be dealt = with? I believe this specific issue has been discussed [1] at length. This = update is solely about how the IETF GitHub presence is managed, not the = choice of GitHub or the reasoning that went into that. Jay [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-and-github/6UUpBjoyrVHFnaOa16cO= v2I4uSo/ >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_B73D1365-48DB-4D7E-BBD7-03CF3A84DC16 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEteUdwVZRcQwi2bcWICxpEHTRWFMFAmBjto4ACgkQICxpEHTR WFMD3RAAqgazGJWjqZ/Ob+Av1LW8yENGPfoi0owk6Z/LiD9wpHkwMe5+/9ViDoUf 1Yti/7PesGNZui8NGLj3ePqb9YB1beUkgsThY+3tcJ2BEpyR+e/XRFmMMDkyhznX TFHeMX3R9UOFpwZnNpNt/+LmFBsCPyLzYHk9fvHmqKSh9gaQ5yXo/7WBC3oyeie1 3c1s+/LDXPycqmu9eArwVQCSiyi9DFU/aGBwGClN/U/76ol8Bw4OH4ovu5bgDFsr NBVUxqoSdsxTugqGmhDaD628B30vF+xjcCilbVdTc1h40xEak5cNpmzriywrssAS YVjn13dnphe+36j3+AqYAFUdhZ2H+pBexUfdhBSMYPde6vhGI+xx94strXmrfEDB XGkMfsFT5vDZeyEqc2y60IYUoB5+o45FHUvLRoRPmkmk9wS3ZKtDfPZ7oZGiJqYZ HnCQpZ+pNsampOxjCA/pqU33HFsMyeAcRUcp+YZWWhvhuW+OHL15y0xn7xhCDj4I NxQMyDyNhU4lk/JGPowUmOvCGj28/GwFg+LtavCPrzjmTgNDvtTRKWkO2xC9ZXgH P+0OTHhYdtyPB64xlWPgq7+tHhM1whZnXi8uaYyCrjLdkpGbtKcnQn6Ade30UgVt khp0/3yhMs/nt5fmo1EouhQJR8cPSYVylVZa4JiBbK0ONUGPiOg= =AUe4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B73D1365-48DB-4D7E-BBD7-03CF3A84DC16--