----- Original message -----

From: IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org>

To: IETF Announc= ement List <ietf-announce@i= etf.org>

Subject: Draft report on first annual IETF= community survey

Date: Friday, July 09, 2021 06:46

In May of this year the IETF Administration LLC (IET= F LLC) on behalf of the IESG and in collaboration with the IAB distribut= ed the first annual IETF community survey to all 56,000 addresses subscr= ibed to IETF mailing lists. As noted in the blog post [1] that lau= nched the survey, its purpose was "To help better understand our communi= ty and its makeup, gather views on the IETF and how well it works for pa= rticipants, and gain insight into how we compare to similar organisation= s". We want to thank the 2032 people who responded to this survey,= providing a rich data set.

<= br>

A report has now been written= jointly by the IETF LLC and IESG that analyses the results and draws so= me key findings from the analysis. As this is the first year of this sur= vey, we are seeking feedback on a draft version of this report before a = final version is published.

<= br>

The draft report is available= at:

https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_2021_C= onsultation_Draft.pdf

Please provide any feedback on = the draft report to the a= dmin-discuss@ietf.org mailing list or directly to the IESG at <= a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org by 9 August 2021.
<= /div>

Please also feel free to reach out to me directly at exec-director@ietf.org if you= have any questions or concerns.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ie= tf-community-survey/

Jay Daley

IETF Executive Director

exec-director@ietf.org

__________________________________________= _____

IETF-Announce mailing l= ist

IETF-Announce@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

-= -

Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail = Pty Ltd

brong@fastmailteam.com<= br>

--774e93a3d34a4367be1b21e8e10557bf-- From nobody Thu Jul 8 20:59:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31203A0CD3 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 20:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TYjNDCepwVW2; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 20:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 759A23A0CCF; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 20:59:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_343BA326-2CE5-4FCC-B79D-830BE51F8C83" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 15:59:40 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <8152D3C2-4CAB-41D0-99D1-38417DD6F2A7@ietf.org> <1b929008-4cbd-0a68-db9f-3868bf237f10@gmail.com> <7D821622-DCC7-4EEF-94A8-920455C046AB@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Draft report on first annual IETF community survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 03:59:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_343BA326-2CE5-4FCC-B79D-830BE51F8C83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 9/07/2021, at 2:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 09-Jul-21 11:54, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 9/07/2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian E Carpenter = > = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> This is very interesting, thanks. One immediate comment: >>>=20 >>>> The standout exception is the timely production of RFCs, judged as = poor in both Q25 >>>> and Q27. >>>=20 >>> I think this summary is a bit misleading. The complaint is surely = not about the "production of RFCs" but about the total time from -00 = individual draft to the final publication of the RFC. As we know, the = actual production of the RFC is a very small fraction of the total time. = At best, the final item in Q25 was unclear on this, and Q27 was = explcitly about WG process. >>>=20 >>> So I think the summary should be more likely: >>>=20 >>> "The standout exception is the slowness of the entire IETF process, = judged as poor in both Q25 and Q27." >>=20 >> Yes, that=E2=80=99s better, thanks. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Also, 2039 responses for >50k targets is a bit lower than I'd have = liked. Did you have any way to analyse how representative these 2039 = people might be? >>=20 >> Yes it is lower than I hoped for too. I think I probably should have = narrowed the delivery list to the subscribers to mailing lists that have = had at least one message in the last year but I don=E2=80=99t know how = much that would reduce the 56k. >>=20 >> The only measures we have for representativeness are those in the = survey. Did you have anything else in mind? >=20 > I'm no expert on surveys & sampling bias. I just wondered if there is = any=20 > objective difference between what we know about the 2k who responded = and what we know about the whole 50k. Even very crude data like "% of = responders with XXX.com addresses" vs "% of all targets with XXX.com = addresses" for a few interesting values of XXX. If a few metrics like = that are similar for the 2k and the 50k, it would raise confidence that = the results are=20 > representative. The survey was anonymous so the only data we have is that supplied. =20 Sampling bias is determined by matching to known datasets, of which we = have a few. Clearly, there is some sampling bias as shown by the percentages of = respondents that are subscribed to various lists. By other measures = though, such as region, it appears not. None of this should be confused with being representative as a sampling = bias does not equate to a lack of representation unless we know that = sample has different views. Otherwise it=E2=80=99s simply a matter of = maths and margin of error. In my view this data is sufficient for the = conclusions to be valid. Jay >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Regards >>> Brian >>>=20 >>> On 09-Jul-21 08:46, IETF Executive Director wrote: >>>> In May of this year the IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC) on = behalf of the IESG and in collaboration with the IAB distributed the = first annual IETF community survey to all 56,000 addresses subscribed to = IETF mailing lists. As noted in the blog post [1] that launched the = survey, its purpose was "To help better understand our community and its = makeup, gather views on the IETF and how well it works for participants, = and gain insight into how we compare to similar organisations". We want = to thank the 2032 people who responded to this survey, providing a rich = data set. >>>>=20 >>>> A report has now been written jointly by the IETF LLC and IESG that = analyses the results and draws some key findings from the analysis. As = this is the first year of this survey, we are seeking feedback on a = draft version of this report before a final version is published. >>>>=20 >>>> The draft report is available at: >>>>=20 >>>> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_2021_Consul= tation_Draft.pdf = >>>>=20 >>>> Please provide any feedback on the draft report to the = admin-discuss@ietf.org mailing list or = directly to the IESG at iesg@ietf.org by 9 August = 2021. >>>>=20 >>>> Please also feel free to reach out to me directly at = exec-director@ietf.org if you have any = questions or concerns. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> [1] https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/ = =20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> admin-discuss mailing list >>> admin-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss = >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> jay@ietf.org >>=20 >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_343BA326-2CE5-4FCC-B79D-830BE51F8C83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 9/07/2021, at 2:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On = 09-Jul-21 11:54, Jay Daley wrote:

On 9/07/2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi,

This is very = interesting, thanks. One immediate comment:

The standout exception = is the timely production of RFCs, judged as poor in both Q25
and Q27.

I think = this summary is a bit misleading. The complaint is surely not about the = "production of RFCs" but about the total time from -00 individual draft = to the final publication of the RFC. As we know, the actual production = of the RFC is a very small fraction of the total time. At best, the = final item in Q25 was unclear on this, and Q27 was explcitly about WG = process.

So I think the summary should be = more likely:

"The standout exception is the = slowness of the entire IETF process, judged as poor in both Q25 and = Q27."

Yes, that=E2=80=99s = better, thanks.

Also, 2039 responses for >50k targets is a = bit lower than I'd have liked. Did you have any way to analyse how = representative these 2039 people might be?

Yes it is lower than I hoped for too. I think I = probably should have narrowed the delivery list to the subscribers to = mailing lists that have had at least one message in the last year but I = don=E2=80=99t know how much that would reduce the 56k.

The only measures we have for representativeness are those in = the survey. Did you have anything else in mind?

I'm no expert on surveys & = sampling bias. I just wondered if there is any
objective = difference between what we know about the 2k who responded and what we = know about the whole 50k. Even very crude data like "% of responders = with XXX.com addresses" vs "% = of all targets with XXX.com = addresses" for a few interesting values of XXX. If a few metrics like = that are similar for the 2k and the 50k, it would raise confidence that = the results are
representative.

The survey = was anonymous so the only data we have is that supplied. =

Sampling bias is determined = by matching to known datasets, of which we have a few.

Clearly, there is some sampling bias as shown by = the percentages of respondents that are subscribed to various lists. = By other measures though, such as region, it appears = not.

None of this should be confused = with being representative as a sampling bias does not equate to a lack = of representation unless we know that sample has different views. = Otherwise it=E2=80=99s simply a matter of maths and margin of = error. In my view this data is sufficient for the conclusions to = be valid.

Jay

=   Brian

Jay

Regards
  Brian

On 09-Jul-21 = 08:46, IETF Executive Director wrote:
In May of this year the IETF Administration LLC = (IETF LLC) on behalf of the IESG and in collaboration with the IAB = distributed the first annual IETF community survey to all 56,000 = addresses subscribed to IETF mailing lists. As noted in the blog = post [1] that launched the survey, its purpose was "To help better = understand our community and its makeup, gather views on the IETF and = how well it works for participants, and gain insight into how we compare = to similar organisations". We want to thank the 2032 people who = responded to this survey, providing a rich data set.

A report has now been written jointly by the IETF LLC and = IESG that analyses the results and draws some key findings from the = analysis. As this is the first year of this survey, we are seeking = feedback on a draft version of this report before a final version is = published.

The draft report is available = at:

   https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_= 2021_Consultation_Draft.pdf <https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_= 2021_Consultation_Draft.pdf>

Please = provide any feedback on the draft report to the admin-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:admin-discuss@ietf.org> mailing list or = directly to the IESG at iesg@ietf.org <mailto:iesg@ietf.org> by 9 August 2021.

Please also feel free to reach out to me = directly at exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org> if you have any = questions or concerns.

[1] = https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/ <https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/>

--
admin-discuss mailing list
admin-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:admin-discuss@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss = <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss>

--
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org <mailto:jay@ietf.org>

--
Jay Daley

IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_343BA326-2CE5-4FCC-B79D-830BE51F8C83-- From nobody Thu Jul 8 21:08:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14B23A0D2F for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 21:08:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fECH1bV6f8aI; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 21:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE4413A0D2D; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 21:08:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3E0D8DEB-4D42-40E5-90AF-7E382BE5C610" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:08:49 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Bron Gondwana References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Draft report on first annual IETF community survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 04:08:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3E0D8DEB-4D42-40E5-90AF-7E382BE5C610 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Bron > On 9/07/2021, at 3:31 PM, Bron Gondwana = wrote: >=20 > First comment: there are no numbers on the sections, so it's hard to = specify locations for feedback :p Noted for the final version. >=20 > Overall comment. Ouch - 56,000 participants of which only 2,032 valid = responses. 4% response rate is tiny, and makes the "maximum margin of = error of +/- 2.13%" very questionable.=20 That=E2=80=99s a matter of maths not opinion, which is at = https://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm > That would be true IFF this 4% is a random sample, but that is not a = given. That=E2=80=99s not quite how it works. The sampling bias in this case = is towards people who interact with the IETF as they have clearly = answered at a higher rate then those that do not. But that doesn=E2=80=99= t mean the margin of error is wrong unless we can see that they answer = their questions differently from those that don=E2=80=99t and in a few = places that has been checked and there is no difference. >=20 > On the other hand, 56,000 list subscribers is going to have a large = number of lurkers - if somebody hasn't posted to any mailing list in the = past 5 years, submitted any draft, or attended any meeting or interim = call, it would be reasonable to assume that they are not at all active = in the IETF any more. Merely being subscribed to a mailing list and not = interacting is no different than reading the archive online or via = anonymous IMAP! >=20 > I would be interested in having a breakdown of how many "active" = participants by some reasonable standard the IETF has. I wonder if one = takeaway from this report should be that the IETF should require some = affirmative step to become a "participant" that needs to be renewed = every few years - datatracker account and notewell acknowledgement, so = that people drop out through lack of interaction unless they take a step = to affirm that they are participating in the IETF.=20 The survey attempts to do that by defining an interaction status based = on self-reported actions. That is then used for analysing some of the = results. Next time around we need to do more on that, probably with a = "in the last year", "in the last five years" type breakdown of the = interaction question. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Section: "The IETF has a big problem with gender, a smaller problem = with regionality but > no problem with age" the final paragraph appears to be incomplete. It = finishes with ". Some people" and then just cuts off. Noted. thanks again Jay >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original message ----- > From: IETF Executive Director > > To: IETF Announcement List > > Subject: Draft report on first annual IETF community survey > Date: Friday, July 09, 2021 06:46 >=20 > In May of this year the IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC) on behalf = of the IESG and in collaboration with the IAB distributed the first = annual IETF community survey to all 56,000 addresses subscribed to IETF = mailing lists. As noted in the blog post [1] that launched the survey, = its purpose was "To help better understand our community and its makeup, = gather views on the IETF and how well it works for participants, and = gain insight into how we compare to similar organisations". We want to = thank the 2032 people who responded to this survey, providing a rich = data set. >=20 > A report has now been written jointly by the IETF LLC and IESG that = analyses the results and draws some key findings from the analysis. As = this is the first year of this survey, we are seeking feedback on a = draft version of this report before a final version is published. >=20 > The draft report is available at: >=20 > = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_2021_Consul= tation_Draft.pdf = >=20 > Please provide any feedback on the draft report to the = admin-discuss@ietf.org mailing list or = directly to the IESG at iesg@ietf.org by 9 August = 2021. >=20 > Please also feel free to reach out to me directly at = exec-director@ietf.org if you have any = questions or concerns. >=20 >=20 > [1] https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/ = =20 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce = >=20 >=20 > -- > Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd > brong@fastmailteam.com >=20 >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_3E0D8DEB-4D42-40E5-90AF-7E382BE5C610 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks Bron

On 9/07/2021, at 3:31 PM, Bron = Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote:

First comment: there are no = numbers on the sections, so it's hard to specify locations for feedback = :p

Noted for the final version.

Overall comment. Ouch - 56,000 participants of = which only 2,032 valid responses. 4% response rate is tiny, and = makes the "maximum margin of error of +/- 2.13%" very = questionable.

That=E2=80=99s a matter of maths not opinion, = which is at https://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

That would be = true IFF this 4% is a random sample, but that is not a given.

That=E2=80=99s not quite how it works. The = sampling bias in this case is towards people who interact with the IETF = as they have clearly answered at a higher rate then those that do not. = But that doesn=E2=80=99t mean the margin of error is wrong unless = we can see that they answer their questions differently from those that = don=E2=80=99t and in a few places that has been checked and there is no = difference.

On the other hand, 56,000 list = subscribers is going to have a large number of lurkers - if somebody = hasn't posted to any mailing list in the past 5 years, submitted any = draft, or attended any meeting or interim call, it would be reasonable = to assume that they are not at all active in the IETF any more. = Merely being subscribed to a mailing list and not interacting is no = different than reading the archive online or via anonymous IMAP!

I would be interested in having a = breakdown of how many "active" participants by some reasonable standard = the IETF has. I wonder if one takeaway from this report should be = that the IETF should require some affirmative step to become a = "participant" that needs to be renewed every few years - datatracker = account and notewell acknowledgement, so that people drop out through = lack of interaction unless they take a step to affirm that they are = participating in the IETF.

The = survey attempts to do that by defining an interaction status based on = self-reported actions. That is then used for analysing some of the = results. Next time around we need to do more on that, probably = with a "in the last year", "in the last five years" type breakdown of = the interaction question.

Section: "The IETF has a big problem with gender, a = smaller problem with regionality but
no problem with = age" the final paragraph appears to be incomplete. It finishes = with ". Some people" and then just cuts off.

Noted.

thanks = again

Jay

----- = Original message -----
From: IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org>
To: = IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Subject: Draft report on first annual IETF community = survey
Date: Friday, July 09, 2021 06:46

In May of this year the IETF = Administration LLC (IETF LLC) on behalf of the IESG and in collaboration = with the IAB distributed the first annual IETF community survey to all = 56,000 addresses subscribed to IETF mailing lists. As noted in the = blog post [1] that launched the survey, its purpose was "To help better = understand our community and its makeup, gather views on the IETF and = how well it works for participants, and gain insight into how we compare = to similar organisations". We want to thank the 2032 people who = responded to this survey, providing a rich data set.

A report = has now been written jointly by the IETF LLC and IESG that analyses the = results and draws some key findings from the analysis. As this is the = first year of this survey, we are seeking feedback on a draft version of = this report before a final version is published.

The draft report is available = at:

https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_= 2021_Consultation_Draft.pdf

Please provide any feedback on = the draft report to the admin-discuss@ietf.org mailing list or directly to = the IESG at iesg@ietf.org by 9 August 2021.

Please = also feel free to reach out to me directly at exec-director@ietf.org if you have any questions = or concerns.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

--
Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
brong@fastmailteam.com

--
admin-discuss mailing = list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss

--
Jay Daley

IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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boundary="vkRwLPExNmYyBPTTwVDHFBahN6q8nk2yJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <77d1fffd-3e26-eda7-fa9a-37e854e93734@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: Draft report on first annual IETF community survey References:

In-Reply-To: --vkRwLPExNmYyBPTTwVDHFBahN6q8nk2yJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F64C9F0E541AA6CA17285D7F" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F64C9F0E541AA6CA17285D7F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think a couple of the (presumably tentative) conclusions are making unwarranted assumptions. Just because younger IETF participants may prefer IM or issue trackers today does not mean those specific technologies will be preferred by anyone in future - people can change their minds and their workflows and better new tooling might come along. Cheers, S. --------------F64C9F0E541AA6CA17285D7F Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 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Fri Jul 9 13:46:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADA03A2E72 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 13:46:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDeWlvzEkNk9; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 13:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0BCD73A2E70; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 13:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7C01C194-9F68-4B58-84DB-48F13A92AD92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 08:46:20 +1200 Message-Id: <6A357007-C29F-4C9F-B205-F8CE728807D2@ietf.org> References: <77d1fffd-3e26-eda7-fa9a-37e854e93734@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <77d1fffd-3e26-eda7-fa9a-37e854e93734@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18F72) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Draft report on first annual IETF community survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 20:46:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail-7C01C194-9F68-4B58-84DB-48F13A92AD92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 10/07/2021, at 7:52 AM, Stephen Farrell wro= te: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I think a couple of the (presumably tentative) conclusions > are making unwarranted assumptions. Just because younger > IETF participants may prefer IM or issue trackers today does > not mean those specific technologies will be preferred by > anyone in future - people can change their minds and their > workflows and better new tooling might come along. >=20 Yes I agree that commentary was a step too far. I=E2=80=99ll remove for the f= inal report.=20 Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director > Cheers, > S. > > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --Apple-Mail-7C01C194-9F68-4B58-84DB-48F13A92AD92 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 10/07/2021, at 7:52 AM, Ste= phen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
I think a couple of the (presumably tentative) conclusions
are making unwarranted assumptions. Just because younger
I= ETF participants may prefer IM or issue trackers today does
= not mean those specific technologies will be preferred by
an= yone in future - people can change their minds and their
wor= kflows and better new tooling might come along.

<= /div>

Yes I agree that commentary was a step too f= ar. I=E2=80=99ll remove for the final report.

Jay

Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director

Cheers,
S.<= /span>
<OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>
-- <= br>admin-discuss mailing list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss

= --Apple-Mail-7C01C194-9F68-4B58-84DB-48F13A92AD92-- From nobody Fri Jul 9 14:06:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31243A2EF6 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:06:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 37ZNnC6D7bU4; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2AEB83A2EF5; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-477A7ADC-8274-42AB-ADDE-C6D9931B5DC1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 09:06:27 +1200 Message-Id: <4F7FA7C4-72E7-4AAC-AD23-6DC0FE4482C6@ietf.org> References: Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Bron Gondwana X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18F72) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Draft report on first annual IETF community survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 21:06:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail-477A7ADC-8274-42AB-ADDE-C6D9931B5DC1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bron sorry my answer was a bit short and oversimplified.=20 Yes it=E2=80=99s true that the margin of error only holds if this is a rando= m sample. We don=E2=80=99t have an idea of the sizes of most of the sub-popu= lations so we can=E2=80=99t test against those. The sub-population sizes we d= o have are all biased towards those who interact more. For example, we hav= e good data on residential region for meeting participants, but nothing on a= ge or gender. And we have the questions about what interactions people have h= ad and what of the three general mailing lists they subscribe to. Cross chec= king by what data we have seems to show that the sample is a fair sample of t= hose that interact, and even then that=E2=80=99s only at the level of each q= uestion so there=E2=80=99s an assumption that there=E2=80=99s no bias in tha= t group for a specific question and not others. But we can=E2=80=99t test if= it is representative of those who do not interact much.=20 If you think we should give a better warning about the limits of interpretat= ion then I would welcome suggested text as I=E2=80=99m probably too close to= this to get that right. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director > On 9/07/2021, at 4:09 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThanks Bron >=20 >>> On 9/07/2021, at 3:31 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: >>>=20 >>> First comment: there are no numbers on the sections, so it's hard to spe= cify locations for feedback :p >>=20 >> Noted for the final version. >>=20 >>=20 >> Overall comment. Ouch - 56,000 participants of which only 2,032 valid re= sponses. 4% response rate is tiny, and makes the "maximum margin of error o= f +/- 2.13%" very questionable.=20 >=20 > That=E2=80=99s a matter of maths not opinion, which is at https://www.surv= eysystem.com/sscalc.htm >=20 >> That would be true IFF this 4% is a random sample, but that is not a give= n. >=20 > That=E2=80=99s not quite how it works. The sampling bias in this case is t= owards people who interact with the IETF as they have clearly answered at a h= igher rate then those that do not. But that doesn=E2=80=99t mean the margin= of error is wrong unless we can see that they answer their questions differ= ently from those that don=E2=80=99t and in a few places that has been checke= d and there is no difference. >=20 >>=20 >> On the other hand, 56,000 list subscribers is going to have a large numbe= r of lurkers - if somebody hasn't posted to any mailing list in the past 5 y= ears, submitted any draft, or attended any meeting or interim call, it would= be reasonable to assume that they are not at all active in the IETF any mor= e. Merely being subscribed to a mailing list and not interacting is no diff= erent than reading the archive online or via anonymous IMAP! >>=20 >> I would be interested in having a breakdown of how many "active" particip= ants by some reasonable standard the IETF has. I wonder if one takeaway fro= m this report should be that the IETF should require some affirmative step t= o become a "participant" that needs to be renewed every few years - datatrac= ker account and notewell acknowledgement, so that people drop out through la= ck of interaction unless they take a step to affirm that they are participat= ing in the IETF.=20 >=20 > The survey attempts to do that by defining an interaction status based on s= elf-reported actions. That is then used for analysing some of the results. = Next time around we need to do more on that, probably with a "in the last y= ear", "in the last five years" type breakdown of the interaction question. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Section: "The IETF has a big problem with gender, a smaller problem with r= egionality but >> no problem with age" the final paragraph appears to be incomplete. It fi= nishes with ". Some people" and then just cuts off. >=20 > Noted. >=20 > thanks again > Jay >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ----- Original message ----- >> From: IETF Executive Director >> To: IETF Announcement List >> Subject: Draft report on first annual IETF community survey >> Date: Friday, July 09, 2021 06:46 >>=20 >> In May of this year the IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC) on behalf of t= he IESG and in collaboration with the IAB distributed the first annual IETF c= ommunity survey to all 56,000 addresses subscribed to IETF mailing lists. A= s noted in the blog post [1] that launched the survey, its purpose was "To h= elp better understand our community and its makeup, gather views on the IETF= and how well it works for participants, and gain insight into how we compar= e to similar organisations". We want to thank the 2032 people who responded= to this survey, providing a rich data set. >>=20 >> A report has now been written jointly by the IETF LLC and IESG that analy= ses the results and draws some key findings from the analysis. As this is th= e first year of this survey, we are seeking feedback on a draft version of t= his report before a final version is published. >>=20 >> The draft report is available at: >>=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_2021_C= onsultation_Draft.pdf >>=20 >> Please provide any feedback on the draft report to the admin-discuss@ietf= .org mailing list or directly to the IESG at iesg@ietf.org by 9 August 2021.= >>=20 >> Please also feel free to reach out to me directly at exec-director@ietf.o= rg if you have any questions or concerns. >>=20 >>=20 >> [1] https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd >> brong@fastmailteam.com >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> admin-discuss mailing list >> admin-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 --Apple-Mail-477A7ADC-8274-42AB-ADDE-C6D9931B5DC1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bron sorry my answer was a bit short and= oversimplified.

Yes it=E2=80=99s true that the mar= gin of error only holds if this is a random sample. We don=E2=80=99t have an= idea of the sizes of most of the sub-populations so we can=E2=80=99t test a= gainst those. The sub-population sizes we do have are all biased towards tho= se who interact more. For example, we have good data on residential r= egion for meeting participants, but nothing on age or gender. And we have th= e questions about what interactions people have had and what of the three ge= neral mailing lists they subscribe to. Cross checking by what data we have s= eems to show that the sample is a fair sample of those that interact, and ev= en then that=E2=80=99s only at the level of each question so there=E2=80=99s= an assumption that there=E2=80=99s no bias in that group for a specific que= stion and not others. But we can=E2=80=99t test if it is representative of t= hose who do not interact much.

If you think w= e should give a better warning about the limits of interpretation then I wou= ld welcome suggested text as I=E2=80=99m probably too close to this to get t= hat right.

Jay

-- =

Jay D= aley
IETF Executive Director

On 9/07/2021, at 4:09 PM, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> w= rote:

=EF= =BB=BFThanks Bron

On 9/07/2021, at 3:31 PM, Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>= ; wrote:

First comment: th= ere are no numbers on the sections, so it's hard to specify locations for fe= edback :p

<= div>Noted for the final version.

Overall comment. Ouch - 56,000 p= articipants of which only 2,032 valid responses. 4% response rate is t= iny, and makes the "maximum margin of error of +/- 2.13%" very questionable.=

That=E2=80=99= s a matter of maths not opinion, which is at https://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm=

That would be true IFF this 4% is a random s= ample, but that is not a given.
=
That=E2=80=99s not quite how it works. The s= ampling bias in this case is towards people who interact with the IETF as th= ey have clearly answered at a higher rate then those that do not. But t= hat doesn=E2=80=99t mean the margin of error is wrong unless we can see that= they answer their questions differently from those that don=E2=80=99t and i= n a few places that has been checked and there is no difference.

On the= other hand, 56,000 list subscribers is going to have a large number of lurk= ers - if somebody hasn't posted to any mailing list in the past 5 years, sub= mitted any draft, or attended any meeting or interim call, it would be reaso= nable to assume that they are not at all active in the IETF any more. M= erely being subscribed to a mailing list and not interacting is no different= than reading the archive online or via anonymous IMAP!
=

I would be interested in having a breakdown of how many "active" par= ticipants by some reasonable standard the IETF has. I wonder if one ta= keaway from this report should be that the IETF should require some affirmat= ive step to become a "participant" that needs to be renewed every few years -= datatracker account and notewell acknowledgement, so that people drop out t= hrough lack of interaction unless they take a step to affirm that they are p= articipating in the IETF. =

The s= urvey attempts to do that by defining an interaction status based on self-re= ported actions. That is then used for analysing some of the results. &= nbsp;Next time around we need to do more on that, probably with a "in the la= st year", "in the last five years" type breakdown of the interaction questio= n.

Section: "The IETF has a big problem with gender, a s= maller problem with regionality but
no problem with age" the final paragraph appears to be incomplet= e. It finishes with ". Some people" and then just cuts off.

Noted.
=
thanks again
Jay

----- O= riginal message -----
From: IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org>
To: IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
=
Subject: Draft report on first ann= ual IETF community survey
Date: Friday, July 09, 2021 06:46

In May o= f this year the IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC) on behalf of the IESG and= in collaboration with the IAB distributed the first annual IETF community s= urvey to all 56,000 addresses subscribed to IETF mailing lists. As not= ed in the blog post [1] that launched the survey, its purpose was "To help b= etter understand our community and its makeup, gather views on the IETF and h= ow well it works for participants, and gain insight into how we compare to s= imilar organisations". We want to thank the 2032 people who responded t= o this survey, providing a rich data set.

A report has now been written jointly by the IETF LLC= and IESG that analyses the results and draws some key findings from the ana= lysis. As this is the first year of this survey, we are seeking feedback on a= draft version of this report before a final version is published.

=
The draft report is available a= t:

&nbs= p; https://www.ietf.org/media/doc= uments/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_2021_Consultation_Draft.pdf

=
Please provide any feedback on= the draft report to the admin-discuss@ietf.org = ;mailing list or directly to the IESG at iesg@ietf.org= by 9 August 2021.

Please also feel free to reach out to me directly at exec-director@ietf.org if you have any questions or= concerns.

[1] h= ttps://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/

=
--
<= /div>
Jay Daley
<= /div>
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

_____________________________________________= __
IETF-An= nounce mailing list
IETF-Announce= @ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

<= div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;= font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; tex= t-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;= word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; f= ont-family: Arial;" class=3D"">
--
Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
bro= ng@fastmailteam.com

-= -
admin-discuss mailing list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-d= iscuss

--
Jay Da= ley

IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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Mon, 12 Jul 2021 10:12:39 +0000 To: admin-discuss@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <8152D3C2-4CAB-41D0-99D1-38417DD6F2A7@ietf.org> From: tom petch Message-ID: <60EC1593.5000906@btconnect.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:12:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 In-Reply-To: <8152D3C2-4CAB-41D0-99D1-38417DD6F2A7@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ClientProxiedBy: LO2P265CA0235.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:b::31) To DBAPR07MB6695.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:18a::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.1.65] (86.143.250.86) by LO2P265CA0235.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:b::31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.20.4308.19 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 10:12:39 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9ca9444a-3ea2-4274-a76c-08d9451d944a X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DBAPR07MB7047: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; 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As noted in the blog post [1] that launched the survey, its purpose was "To help better understand our community and its makeup, gather views on the IETF and how well it works for participants, and gain insight into how we compare to similar organisations". We want to thank the 2032 people who responded to this survey, providing a rich data set. > > A report has now been written jointly by the IETF LLC and IESG that analyses the results and draws some key findings from the analysis. As this is the first year of this survey, we are seeking feedback on a draft version of this report before a final version is published. > > The draft report is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_2021_Consultation_Draft.pdf > > Please provide any feedback on the draft report to the admin-discuss@ietf.org mailing list or directly to the IESG at iesg@ietf.org by 9 August 2021. > > Please also feel free to reach out to me directly at exec-director@ietf.org if you have any questions or concerns. > > > [1] https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/ A left field thought. I am struck by the fact that on demographic questions, I am in a small minority and it would only take a few such to identify me uniquely. I would have seen my concerns about privacy as being low compared to the views expressed and the work being done by others in the IETF but lately, I have received many phishing e-mail from addresses in the domain of my ESP which seem to be derived from posts that I have made to IETF lists and that turns my concerns up a notch. So, in future such surveys, from the IETF and others, I expect that I will make more use of 'Not prepared to say' or just take a guess as to the most likely answer by others and say that applies to me. I wonder if privacy concerns colored the answers, or lack thereof, of others. I don't think that there is anything that the IETF can do to reduce these concerns; the way the IETF works leaves it open to bad actors harvesting active e-mail addresses and phishing. On the other hand, rfc-interest is debating the value of postal addresses; I cannot seem myself providing one of those again. 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As noted in the blog post [1] that launched the survey, its purpose was "To help better understand our community and its makeup, gather views on the IETF and how well it works for participants, and gain insight into how we compare to similar organisations". We want to thank the 2032 people who responded to this survey, providing a rich data set. > > A report has now been written jointly by the IETF LLC and IESG that analyses the results and draws some key findings from the analysis. As this is the first year of this survey, we are seeking feedback on a draft version of this report before a final version is published. > > The draft report is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT_All-of-IETF_Survey_2021_Consultation_Draft.pdf > > Please provide any feedback on the draft report to the admin-discuss@ietf.org mailing list or directly to the IESG at iesg@ietf.org by 9 August 2021. > > Please also feel free to reach out to me directly at exec-director@ietf.org if you have any questions or concerns. > > > [1] https://www.ietf.org/blog/first-annual-ietf-community-survey/ > From nobody Mon Jul 12 07:49:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4249F3A1AF0 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 07:49:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: f4984153-4048-442d-5809-08d945443402 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Jul 2021 14:49:08.0828 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: GQIhe6MNlEJInshJpzizCtgG/oLgln1O48bcpvMtycUh2UFCWKxCvEmuLT6YaI2FVHhTF16FPyB96Ekn7ndTWnTKXlY861+j6mmmL8bLFGk= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BL1PR11MB5240 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWA X-Proofpoint-GUID: K14k8NGnkxpBzRSykoE3Xyk2814GvuTb X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: K14k8NGnkxpBzRSykoE3Xyk2814GvuTb X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-07-12_09:2021-07-12, 2021-07-12 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] Webinar reminder: IASA2 Retrospective X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:49:32 -0000 T24gMjQgSnVuZSAyMDIxLCB0aGUgTExDIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0aGUgYmxvZyBhYm91dCB0aGUgSUFT QTIgcmV0cm9zcGVjdGl2ZSBhdCBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9ibG9nL2lhc2EyLXJldHJv c3BlY3RpdmUtY29uc3VsdGF0aW9uLXN0YXJ0cy8uIFdlIHNhaWQgd2Ugd291bGQgaG9sZCB0d28g d2ViaW5hcnMgdG8gY29uZHVjdCBsaXZlIFEmQSwgYW5kIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBvbmUgYmVnaW5zIHNo b3J0bHkuIEEgc2Vjb25kIHdpbGwgYmUgaGVsZCBvbiAxMSBBdWd1c3QuDQoNCjEyIEp1bHkgMjAy MSDigJQgMTU6MDAgVVRDIFtodHRwczovL2lldGYud2ViZXguY29tL2lldGYvai5waHA/TVRJRD1t MDU4NjE3MjU3YWY1M2U2NDBhM2MzYjVkNDMyNDdhODFdIE1lZXRpbmcgSUQ6IDE2MSA2MzkgNjAy NCB8IFBhc3N3b3JkOiBpYXNhMg0KMTEgQXVndXN0IDIwMjEg4oCUIDE1OjAwIFVUQyBbaHR0cHM6 Ly9pZXRmLndlYmV4LmNvbS9pZXRmL2oucGhwP01USUQ9bWExMmVhYjVjZTQ3Y2FiYmEzZmJhNTQ0 MTFkZDVkOTkyXSBNZWV0aW5nIElEOiAxNjEgMjUwIDAxMTAgfCBQYXNzd29yZDogaWFzYTINCg0K VGhhbmtzIQ0KSmFzb24NCg0K From nobody Mon Jul 12 12:11:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E133A109C for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 12:11:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hy8xP56rXj8Y; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 12:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [85.131.57.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E55C3A108E; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 12:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: IETF Chair In-Reply-To: <20210611012756.BE89FEDC972@ary.qy> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 22:11:01 +0300 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, Bob Hinden Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <21A550AB-5401-43EA-ACC2-5A6608E19465@ietf.org> References: <20210611012756.BE89FEDC972@ary.qy> To: John Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Proposed ietf.org email address policy X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:11:09 -0000 Hi, back from vacation, sorry for the delay in responding. On 2021-6-11, at 4:27, John Levine wrote: >=20 > It appears that IETF Chair said: >> * the IESG must be consulted before any new email addresses under >> ietf.org are created and will have the sole responsibility for >> approving and managing addresses under ietf.org >>=20 >> * new individual email addresses for LLC personnel will be allocated >> under a new staff.ietf.org subdomain, with the LLC being solely >> responsible for the approval and management of those addresses >=20 > I understand the goal here is to make it possible to make bob@ietf.org > be a mailing list, and bob@staff.ietf.org an unrelated person. that was actually not a goal. One goal of this policy was to not needlessly limit available names = under @ietf.org, especially for short names (e.g., "jay", which as = someone has pointed out prevents us from having "Jet Another YANG" = BOF...) A second goal was to avoid some confusion about whether someone mailing = from an @ietf.org email address was speaking on behalf of the IETF. That second goal was what motivated a subdomain over a naming scheme = (such as "firstname.lastname", which Bob Hinden suggested.) The naming = scheme addresses the first goal, but not the second. I hope this provides some additional background for the proposed policy. = I've otherwise seen pretty strong support, so I will take if forward = with Jason, possible with some very minor modifications based on = suggestions in this thread. Thanks, Lars From nobody Wed Jul 21 15:03:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46C43A2D0A; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:03:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: Cc: llc-board@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.35.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <162690498412.22966.8910119268201255277@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:03:04 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] LLC Policy on Allocation of Email Addresses in the ietf.org Domain X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:03:13 -0000 The IESG and LLC Board have formalized the following policy regarding the allocation of email addresses in the ietf.org domain: * New email addresses for general and administrative roles under ietf.org must be chosen to avoid conflicts with potential IETF mailing list names * The IESG must be consulted before any new email addresses under ietf.org are created and will have the sole responsibility for approving and managing addresses under ietf.org * New individual email addresses for LLC personnel will be allocated under a new staff.ietf.org subdomain, with the LLC being solely responsible for the approval and management of those addresses * Existing individual email addresses under ietf.org at the time the policy goes into effect will continue to receive email, which will be forwarded to new staff.ietf.org subdomain addresses; and outbound mail should be preferably be sent from staff.ietf.org addresses or role-based ietf.org addresses View this policy on the website at: https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF.org_Email_Address_Policy_for_Staff.pdf Lars Eggert IETF Chair Jason Livingood Board Chair, IETF Administration LLC LLC-Board-Chair@ietf.org ++++++++++ How to Contact the IETF LLC ++++++++++ Executive Director: Exec-Director@ietf.org Sponsorship: sponsorship@ietf.org Board: LLC-Board@ietf.org ++++++++++ General IETF LLC Board Background ++++++++++ About the IETF LLC: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/ Meeting minutes: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/minutes/ Future meetings: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/meeting-info/ Financial statements: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/financial-statements/ From nobody Sun Jul 25 15:15:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9C23A0B41 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QvCqR0n4E49a; Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C27E3A0B3E; Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <6A357007-C29F-4C9F-B205-F8CE728807D2@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 10:15:08 +1200 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2BF63D24-2806-4BB7-B472-60C4D369DE84@ietf.org> References: <77d1fffd-3e26-eda7-fa9a-37e854e93734@cs.tcd.ie> <6A357007-C29F-4C9F-B205-F8CE728807D2@ietf.org> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Draft report on first annual IETF community survey X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 22:15:15 -0000 > On 10/07/2021, at 8:46 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 10/07/2021, at 7:52 AM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> I think a couple of the (presumably tentative) conclusions >> are making unwarranted assumptions. Just because younger >> IETF participants may prefer IM or issue trackers today does >> not mean those specific technologies will be preferred by >> anyone in future - people can change their minds and their >> workflows and better new tooling might come along. >>=20 >=20 > Yes I agree that commentary was a step too far. I=E2=80=99ll remove = for the final report.=20 I plan on amending the text from =46rom Q24 we learn that support for new modes of participation is = limited in comparison to email and that there is a strong inverse = correlation between age and strength of support. If we assume that = strength of support will increase as older people cease participating = and younger people join, it looks like it will be about 5-10 year for = issue trackers to become mainstream and 20-30 years for instant = messaging. to=20 =46rom Q24 we learn that support for new modes of participation is = limited in comparison to email and that there is a strong inverse = correlation between age and strength of support. Future surveys will = tell us if people maintain these preferences as they age and if the IETF = should therefore be planning for this change. Jay >=20 > Jay >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director >=20 >> Cheers, >> S. >> >> --=20 >> admin-discuss mailing list >> admin-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org