From nobody Mon Nov 1 16:11:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87163A30A9; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:11:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.39.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <163580829259.12056.9684225421281675576@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:11:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] Conclusion of the IASA2 Retrospective X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 23:11:33 -0000 The IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC) has now completed the IETF Administrative Support Activity (IASA 2.0) retrospective. The report was developed with community input and review and is now available online. For more details and a link to the report, please see the blog post at: https://www.ietf.org/blog/iasa2-retrospective-conclusion/ Jason Livingood Board Chair, IETF Administration LLC LLC-Board-Chair@ietf.org ++++++++++ How to Contact the IETF LLC ++++++++++ Executive Director: Exec-Director@ietf.org Sponsorship: sponsorship@ietf.org Board: LLC-Board@ietf.org ++++++++++ General IETF LLC Board Background ++++++++++ About the IETF LLC: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/ Meeting minutes: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/llc-board/minutes/ Future meetings: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/llc-board/meeting-info/ Financial statements: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/financial-statements/ From nobody Tue Nov 2 18:43:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F1E3A058F for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 18:43:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rw0nHbqvlgIQ for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 18:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD7A43A0486 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 18:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id g184so957313pgc.6 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 18:43:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IguQij5nJlUrQDdWmDgBRAKJo3IzEXVBoVXKRU19TiU=; b=SoP6qwfaftTbih8NItr3UNPjjx6fhaJxE9VlT0gx22vDCxMavoEfwYHW8vrolyStL/ 0Qvz060hKtk5j31/ktGF4LngtvRT33LS5Bga/NBYgQ6mkYeZlsY+WJj2K3d++KYn+289 OcYHeZXdHvjANZhfRFcwSu77rHcA91OFMrkcXJVhb2jxuEyn/paOt7/r60mxXGJQZF1l GgL/yKYP8+zqP8cceaB8iZohSzkGjfv5uzSKItPp8LvIXDteJV/Hh3sDmbHhgTwYBbqP FEPvStDGRcPrb0vR1HUp1uaVOSjc7rhc6yqo6GISc7a9TX9T7boZiU1KANFAlD0uk+6r Q9uA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IguQij5nJlUrQDdWmDgBRAKJo3IzEXVBoVXKRU19TiU=; b=nxnHVZB3HpxgCYjF0naFgOxa+3XCy4ZQgS7YSVSXr2/ozPl/H/YeCvPaIkE62lGnHT xZuxqi0TF0vBfMA/bqn6PLwJi6Rs1GcJOyCkOsaFnvJ0JiASXNxkVPw2N8G/4032jDVJ efpMoFfmuYPYtJPkcJikydaiKOTzBW2k4PJkTfuIPITIHJcf0+g4rabZaimpHqVQLm6v Sqksq5PC1uXm5mULZnjoSbAXtZ2O6h/oaSDaA4YBsqZY/XXZoom513ivVgtcJAf3DTeQ yCYuNynFVv2uhReojr24GoJ9XEa/VxV7KEgZ+B+NmRuW0HtQSz4/DQT3MaR6evmiKwQK OyMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531wLfrV654yODT7vBtBRRW9fMd7e2wb6N7alqu1wTxmEHXf5Sus 5uo3Gm43zppeivJzS5eL8m4WcLhZA0KKDA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJydEaLs5prIhRp3H7csLnyUP1jT10hjLVwF7PHlT72xXCWFVFg0wGUUPjDVV9mDVXbUIN1CPQ== X-Received: by 2002:a65:45cd:: with SMTP id m13mr31194798pgr.26.1635903806362; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 18:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o19sm396248pfu.56.2021.11.02.18.43.24 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 18:43:25 -0700 (PDT) To: admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <163580829259.12056.9684225421281675576@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <88a5150e-5147-a299-5f0c-7a02d54709d4@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:43:22 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <163580829259.12056.9684225421281675576@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Conclusion of the IASA2 Retrospective X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 01:43:33 -0000 Thanks for this comprehensive report. I'd like to mention one point that came to my attention very recently. It's relevant to items 50 and and 56 in the report. RFC 8711 says this: "The IETF has a long history of community involvement in the execution of certain administrative functions, in particular development of IETF tools, the operation of the meeting network by the Network Operations Center (NOC), and some outreach and communications activities conducted by the Education and Mentoring Directorate. The IETF LLC staff is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes about community involvement in these and other functions going forward as long as the staff feels that they can meet the otherwise-stated needs of the community. Establishing the framework to allow the IETF LLC to staff each administrative function as appropriate may require the IETF community to document its consensus expectations in areas where no documentation currently exists." (https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8711.html#section-5.1-5) Do we have a clear mechanism for this - an organized community discussion leading to (rough) consensus followed by a request for resource assessment by the LLC? I'm quite aware of the tools-discuss list but it's the consensus-forming and the subsequent follow-up that seems unclear. I don't mean to imply that the LLC is falling short; if anything, it's the community part of this that is missing. As some here will realise, the same issue arises for RFC Editor tools. Regards Brian Carpenter On 02-Nov-21 12:11, IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair wrote: > The IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC) has now completed the IETF Administrative Support Activity (IASA 2.0) retrospective. The report was developed with community input and review and is now available online. For more details and a link to the report, please see the blog post at: > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/iasa2-retrospective-conclusion/ > > > > Jason Livingood > Board Chair, IETF Administration LLC > LLC-Board-Chair@ietf.org > > > > ++++++++++ How to Contact the IETF LLC ++++++++++ > Executive Director: Exec-Director@ietf.org > Sponsorship: sponsorship@ietf.org > Board: LLC-Board@ietf.org > > ++++++++++ General IETF LLC Board Background ++++++++++ > About the IETF LLC: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/ > Meeting minutes: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/llc-board/minutes/ > Future meetings: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/llc-board/meeting-info/ > Financial statements: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/financial-statements/ > From nobody Fri Nov 5 06:52:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5AE03A0D32 for ; 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o19sm8669333pfu.56.2021.11.05.14.13.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:13:39 -0700 (PDT) To: "Livingood, Jason" , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" References: <163580829259.12056.9684225421281675576@ietfa.amsl.com> <88a5150e-5147-a299-5f0c-7a02d54709d4@gmail.com> <9E026BB7-D827-476D-9ABF-EB59AF44F83A@cable.comcast.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <24d9f2d4-1df3-76ef-d345-75d19fce1174@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 10:13:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9E026BB7-D827-476D-9ABF-EB59AF44F83A@cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Conclusion of the IASA2 Retrospective X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 21:13:43 -0000 On 06-Nov-21 02:52, Livingood, Jason wrote: >> Do we have a clear mechanism for this - an organized community discussion leading to (rough) consensus followed by a request for resource assessment by the LLC? I'm quite aware of the tools-discuss list but it's the consensus-forming and the subsequent follow-up that seems unclear. > > This is a good question, Brian, and one that it seems the IETF community has struggled with recently -- as the IETF discuss list seems to have become less reflective of community consensus and people have unsubscribed. As the community coalesces around a new method(s) for broad community-wide consensus, then the LLC would certainly leverage that. In the meantime, the practice we seem to have arrived at for now is a combination - depending on the particulars of a given issue - of surveys, list discussion on multiple email lists, consultations with the relevant users/developers/administrators, consultation with IAB/IESG/WG chairs, new BoFs, new WGs, etc. In the case of more modest issues, the group closest to the work usually knows exactly what is needed (e.g. the NOC team knows their stuff inside & out). It sort of depends on the issue I suppose. > > That said, I know everyone is open to suggestions on any new mechanisms for getting feedback and developing community-wide consensus. And if there are specific technical platform issues/choices looming on the horizon you think need broader discussion & debate, please say so (I know there are a few). We're also in the budget planning process - so now is also a good time for any groups to request funding for new things & related work in 2022 if that would help them. > > Lastly, I think perhaps there is also an emerging opportunity to engage the community in some way (such as a group of volunteers or something else) on overall future tools strategy & direction and probably other similar technical areas. It seems good timing to start discussing this, as we're finally at a point where the organization has more resource capacity and once tactical backlog items can be cleared then decisions about the future are at hand. I know Jay has been giving this some thought and appreciate any input you or others may have. We have lists: this one, tools-discusss, xml2rfc, rfc-interest, and probably others I don't know about. What we lack, because these are informal lists, is a mechanism for getting from feature requests to *rough consensus* on feature requests. I'm not sure how to fix that; maybe we need a tools-dispatch WG?? Brian From nobody Fri Nov 5 15:00:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034573A1093 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uQj9pFFRobDR for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E1E53A1079 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1A24B0DE40; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X3rpwFfPkoJe; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 463824B0DE3A; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 11:00:01 +1300 Message-Id: <0E115081-1EA5-47A5-845B-851E2E19000E@ietf.org> References: <24d9f2d4-1df3-76ef-d345-75d19fce1174@gmail.com> Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , admin-discuss@ietf.org, Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <24d9f2d4-1df3-76ef-d345-75d19fce1174@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Conclusion of the IASA2 Retrospective X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 22:00:11 -0000 > On 6/11/2021, at 10:13 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 06-Nov-21 02:52, Livingood, Jason wrote: >>> Do we have a clear mechanism for this - an organized community discussio= n leading to (rough) consensus followed by a request for resource assessment= by the LLC? I'm quite aware of the tools-discuss list but it's the consensu= s-forming and the subsequent follow-up that seems unclear. >> This is a good question, Brian, and one that it seems the IETF community h= as struggled with recently -- as the IETF discuss list seems to have become l= ess reflective of community consensus and people have unsubscribed. As the c= ommunity coalesces around a new method(s) for broad community-wide consensus= , then the LLC would certainly leverage that. In the meantime, the practice w= e seem to have arrived at for now is a combination - depending on the partic= ulars of a given issue - of surveys, list discussion on multiple email lists= , consultations with the relevant users/developers/administrators, consultat= ion with IAB/IESG/WG chairs, new BoFs, new WGs, etc. In the case of more mod= est issues, the group closest to the work usually knows exactly what is need= ed (e.g. the NOC team knows their stuff inside & out). It sort of depends on= the issue I suppose. >> That said, I know everyone is open to suggestions on any new mechanisms f= or getting feedback and developing community-wide consensus. And if there ar= e specific technical platform issues/choices looming on the horizon you thin= k need broader discussion & debate, please say so (I know there are a few). = We're also in the budget planning process - so now is also a good time for a= ny groups to request funding for new things & related work in 2022 if that w= ould help them. >> Lastly, I think perhaps there is also an emerging opportunity to engage t= he community in some way (such as a group of volunteers or something else) o= n overall future tools strategy & direction and probably other similar techn= ical areas. It seems good timing to start discussing this, as we're finally a= t a point where the organization has more resource capacity and once tactica= l backlog items can be cleared then decisions about the future are at hand. I= know Jay has been giving this some thought and appreciate any input you or o= thers may have. >=20 > We have lists: this one, tools-discusss, xml2rfc, rfc-interest, and probab= ly others I don't know about. What we lack, because these are informal lists= , is a mechanism for getting from feature requests to *rough consensus* on f= eature requests. I'm not sure how to fix that; maybe we need a tools-dispatc= h WG?? This reflects a point that Mark Nottingham has been making in the RFC Editor= Future Program - the community could and probably should be providing conse= nsus guidance on features/design for tools/website/content but doing so thro= ugh an RFC is such a heavyweight mechanism that it is not happening, and so a= n alternative mechanism is needed. As Jason said, this is something I=E2=80= =99ve been thinking about for a while and was a driver behind the creation o= f the Tools Architecture and Strategy Team, which is now moribund. Even if t= hat was working, as Mark pointed out, that=E2=80=99s not a consensus mechani= sm.=20 I don=E2=80=99t know what the answer is though some time ago, someone with a= smile on their face suggested that I propose something like an IETF Operati= onal Note (RFC 4693) to fill this gap. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > Brian >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >=20 From nobody Fri Nov 12 08:33:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A673A0C08 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:33:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.39.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <163673480104.24703.12671232353531656394@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:33:21 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] LLC Board Meeting Details - 18 November 2021 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 16:33:22 -0000 IETF LLC Board of Directors meetings are conducted via web/teleconference. Members of the community are welcome to attend certain portions of these meetings as observers. Regular meetings are divided into four sections: 1. Open (to Observers) 2. Board + Support Staff Only 3. Board + Executive Director Only 4. Executive Session (Board-Only) The next meeting will be held on Thursday, 18 November 2021 at 12:00 PT (20:00 UTC). WebEx and Dial-in information is at the bottom of this message and also at . The agenda for the meeting can be found at . 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