From nobody Thu Feb 3 15:40:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3593A0CE8 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2022 15:40:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.44.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <164393165566.18250.5454942253694737565@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 15:40:55 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] LLC Board Meeting Details - 10 February 2022 X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 23:40:56 -0000 IETF LLC Board of Directors meetings are conducted via web/teleconference. Members of the community are welcome to attend certain portions of these meetings as observers. Regular meetings are divided into four sections: 1. Open (to Observers) 2. Board + Support Staff Only 3. Board + Executive Director Only 4. Executive Session (Board-Only) The next meeting will be held on Thursday, 10 February 2022 at 12:00 PT (20:00 UTC). WebEx and Dial-in information is at the bottom of this message and also at . The agenda for the meeting can be found on the same page. A calendar of upcoming public meetings can be downloaded or subscribed to at: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/ietf.org_vmffrv4hq14aqpedenuv5v42hs%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ------------------------------------------------------- JOIN WEBEX MEETING https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m35801209ab72d83e21872323bda20c08 Meeting number (access code): 2420 020 9230 Meeting password: 1234 JOIN BY PHONE 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 2420 020 9230 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation. From nobody Mon Feb 7 09:46:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE5B3A1008; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xsUye6iXhsEh; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B606A3A0FD4; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3039D16007E; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id RxrShm2RosxE; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C02A160156; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Bl5ZIpChHU88; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (cpe-76-91-255-77.socal.res.rr.com [76.91.255.77]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26819160155; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:29 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lixia Zhang In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:46:27 -0800 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , admin-discuss@ietf.org, 113attendees@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4568E613-11C4-4293-BD91-1230C45B403A@cs.ucla.edu> References: <321C40AC-5B24-49F5-B2C1-1AD8AF20F2DC@staff.ietf.org> <93750011-435f-bd78-f61d-4941386ae9a4@gmail.com> To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Meeting schedule (was: Re: IETF 113 Updates on 2022-01-19) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 17:46:38 -0000 the msg below (dated 1/31) talked about more info "early next week" = about the meeting time.=20 Since a week has passed: wonder any update available now? Lixia > On Jan 31, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On 2022-1-28, at 2:30, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >> As far as I can tell, it's impossible to tell from any of the posted = information what time the meetings will start and end each day. That's = vital information for anyone considering remote participation. >=20 > I apologize that we haven't published details yet. >=20 > The plan is to roughly stick with the schedule of a fully online = meeting, i.e., start at around mid-day local time and run for around six = hours. >=20 > I'm waving my hands a bit here, because we are still discussing with = the venue about some required procedures, such as for meal breaks and = room disinfection, among others. Depending on the details, those may = necessitate some longer breaks than we had during fully online meetings. = So we may need to start somewhat earlier than we did for the fully = online meetings, and/or we may need to run for a bit longer, in order to = end up with sufficient session time. >=20 > We're hoping to have all the information from the venue early next = week. >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 From nobody Mon Feb 7 11:46:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0C53A05DE; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 11:46:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8n0usMjcjE9y; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 11:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58ACE3A053F; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 11:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:d4ab:190b:5220:3d5a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 03EAC1D3BD9; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 21:46:09 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1644263170; bh=OKvjPVMkYZmrlDXESy7yfBW3p+d+haTL+35UfZ9+pyY=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=ZhnA2v1F4O55VLql3VppauBG0q3HoteEQv3vUH9hZ/IIH1b0rZivi+fxaCXWScVQ8 9BYcFQ2DoYApTLeZD2FOdCvsCj7e/Nj5nZ3fBbn6c4UzEsm1O1AlwtCONOD8zg+UEL oBYsCLU6lOdueQzVBA1lDuWWnh4aHtTaMHzVBgWo= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_77D117C5-D1E4-41DA-806A-55E35F5BCCF5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <4568E613-11C4-4293-BD91-1230C45B403A@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 21:46:09 +0200 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , admin-discuss@ietf.org, 113attendees@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: <71EAA0C8-4495-44C3-AE04-1C71BFA9B32C@eggert.org> References: <321C40AC-5B24-49F5-B2C1-1AD8AF20F2DC@staff.ietf.org> <93750011-435f-bd78-f61d-4941386ae9a4@gmail.com> <4568E613-11C4-4293-BD91-1230C45B403A@cs.ucla.edu> To: Lixia Zhang X-MailScanner-ID: 03EAC1D3BD9.A50D2 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Meeting schedule (was: Re: IETF 113 Updates on 2022-01-19) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 19:46:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_77D117C5-D1E4-41DA-806A-55E35F5BCCF5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-2-7, at 19:46, Lixia Zhang wrote: > the msg below (dated 1/31) talked about more info "early next week" = about the meeting time. > Since a week has passed: wonder any update available now? the deadline for session requests was last Friday, and we have heard = just today from the secretariat staff onsite about venue practicalities. = Once the secretariat has reviews thee session requests and outlines some = potential options, the IESG can finalize the agenda structure and = timing. I'm hoping this will happen during Thursday's IESG meeting, so please = bear with us a little longer. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_77D117C5-D1E4-41DA-806A-55E35F5BCCF5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmIBdwEACgkQVLXDCb9w wVc34hAAi7xcTNa0Dw+AE7h7mfwVOxPeXz7xwcw7+Nwe7vJKjgNA9czW/S63hMOo Z15K/PzjCaDxiEDV61tw/cTK7T25HBDvynrGS5Je2TWrefZWKlpGhl3+MM1Uc8fw dbjlBsVlUXh//bfVGMgNsi6qeoE1joBlcQZ0qvbXC+KUW9t9QJhkhXoWdzby34jp WnffC0vY33JojYU9lcQLgxFZizTY03U50MLyPaSfnGKcvonf3nSIG3uZjPjngny7 Bg9yyrIq6BeRorRKE4QjM12u7cw2Dbjl63ALB5dPn8Xd5WtCdI0G2PxBnzuX7O1k T87Ni1Xe9st3VV1LV9khzNWB2bpoyTolhK6m+LJhSkOU5AetB/CmO9s13DBMlgzA oAVLuldpLo5+iSyW6AgTnjab8Hd6D/prY9ipQA16HftVxmpISklTS1qBIREowm0X xEDqNmNcA4OoffJcUNBZcVTESawCSlajNEp8aokl9nw0J5Ng1APboOmHZNnpNxl4 cIDaa8hO8E0XymbGigVROFcLL8svDRNzlA28kiFZAT5m2+0CXDWn4qpDwlt6x6Iu 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([2406:e003:1180:7001:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id nu7sm7572481pjb.30.2022.02.09.11.45.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Feb 2022 11:45:12 -0800 (PST) To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <5eebed71-98e7-8e99-374a-266abfe176ba@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 08:45:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Update on www.ietf.org analytics and proposal for next steps X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2022 19:45:30 -0000 =C3=89ric, > prioritizing and improving content on the most visited pages Right, but IMHO an equally important point is looking at which pages are = less visited *and why not*. Is it because they are not so important, or b= ecause they are hard to find? Are there pages that we would consider impo= rtant that nobody looks at? > The aggregated data is made available to the IETF LLC staff, contractor= s whose role requires it, and the Internet Engineering Steering Group. I would suggest that EMO also needs to see the data. Are people finding a= nd using the educational/tutorial material? There isn't enough detail in = the overview reports to answer that (it's all hidden in the "Others" cate= gory), but thanks for publishing them. Regards Brian Carpenter On 09-Feb-22 21:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Hello, >=20 > This note provides a follow up on the deployment of analytics on www.ie= tf.org [1] and proposes next steps for deploying ana= lytics on other IETF websites. >=20 > Per the implementation plan [2], the IESG and IETF Tools Team have revi= ewed the current deployment on www.ietf.org and have=20 confirmed it is delivering anticipated results. In the past year, informa= tion from web analytics on has been used by IETF LLC staff and the Secret= ariat to understand and improve use of www.ietf.org in various ways, incl= uding by: >=20 > * prioritizing and improving content on the most visited pages > * identifying reachability issues for specific URLs > * understanding sources of visitors to web pages > * tailoring site-wide features to improve access to specific content >=20 > Aggregated analytics is available to the community at: >=20 > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bhttps://www.ietf.org/policies/web-analytics/ >=20 > During the discussion around the initial call for community input, seve= ral responses suggested expanding the scope of web analytics to include o= ther IETF Internet properties. >=20 > Based on the IESG and Tools Team reviews, and experience gained in the = past year, and requests by maintainers of other IETF websites, we propose=20 to implement analytics on: >=20 > * IETF Datatracker (datatracker.ietf.org) > * The IETF meeting registration system (registration.ietf.org) > * Sites using the new wiki platform, Wiki.js (e.g. chairs.ietf.org an= d authors.ietf.org)[3] > * Related Internet properties such as yangcatalog.org >=20 > These deployments would replicate and conform to the implementation pla= n developed for www.ietf.org . They would NOT enable=20 cross domain linking.[4] As with the initial deployment on www.ietf.org <= http://www.ietf.org>, the IESG and Tools Team would review these deployme= nts after one year to ensure they are delivering the expected results. >=20 > The IESG appreciates any input from the community on this proposal and = will consider all input received by February 23, 2022. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > =C3=89ric Vyncke >=20 > On behalf of the IESG >=20 > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/g0uqkYtFx3aFeOwyLxY7ob1D= dTI/ >=20 > [2] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/www.ietf.org-AnalyticsProposal= -Revised-2019-09-24.pdf >=20 > [3] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/eGihlMqjx9yKQqW= hqnn4DtgKaSg/ >=20 > [4] https://matomo.org/faq/how-to/faq_23654/ >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 9 11:50:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com 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SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b50fA55EgC5a for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1185D3A0C27 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D07B404BFA1 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:24:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yryQZBeNHDVJ for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B41E8404BFA0 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:24:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Message-Id: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:24:52 +1300 To: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:24:59 -0000 I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. Any feedback most welcome. cheers Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Sun Feb 20 15:35:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1ECD3A00E3; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:35:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.811 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.811 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MStxHsKtyUui; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93F1E3A0123; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4K21xz4lWxz1ntY4; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:35:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1645400119; bh=YYFXlIZsPoWu9RS9z3AqxLnOQL1ZoZDBM93YvE/jAuE=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=RcMWs/2HL/NIk73S4zGvAiL67y7TgQhCkTIe+fipWNsfAOHgKKzVtDSIZ4DKnvzYz mXgqxz77jNQfp/mS/r/e7jcJYXLJ/KaR8KwEli82daQthvGnC9nsoc5thO2HQPp2DM Jors7NjH5elCYM0/r9mETEM1On3QiDKBtMFTZJvA= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K21xz1Llhz1ntwm; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:35:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <190b1e43-ad5d-7c0e-5591-d6691f6bf667@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:35:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley , admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF - IAB X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:35:27 -0000 I think the IAB box is misleading. I would label the inner second box "IAB members", and have the arrow to IAB chair go from there, as the IAB members, not the nomcom procedurally select the chair. Yours, Joel On 2/20/2022 6:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > I’ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: > > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png > > While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. > > Any feedback most welcome. > > cheers > Jay > From nobody Sun Feb 20 15:36:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0623A0124; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:36:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PFA_Dg9hbpsT; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A08AC3A0123; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4K21zW2jZMz1nw5j; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1645400199; bh=LdwBi5ge+3VYwcsGSDY9HKTht3kWu6uPopMWSEjbUKA=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=C/bJjYIf3wNLhJieEc74WNnxwCWjXKPmXwQ+zPTSejOU2OCHACpCXfG6wlBBLRpTg WqrbfhVmaTFqaDyqsaulcbNxlnHI/LlNbzz8Q8WTY4nt+jLguRW2Vc1rhVo5RV41hO AbPe4vQNj1tl9G3ioCHUXmy01uTVPcNl2fbBKJ0Y= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K21zV6TRcz1nv1Z; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:36:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6405c7bf-0464-8f84-20c6-f2feae94c76f@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:36:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley , admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF - IRSG X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:36:44 -0000 I am pretty sure that the IAB appoints the IRTF Chair, and he appoints the Research Group chairs and other IRSG members. So the arrow from IAB to IRSG should point directly to the IRTF Chair. Yours, Joel On 2/20/2022 6:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > I’ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: > > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png > > While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. > > Any feedback most welcome. > > cheers > Jay > From nobody Sun Feb 20 15:38:39 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2426D3A0124; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:38:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7wtvpwRLHgHA; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DAA23A00AE; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4K221j0R1Zz1pMPW; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:38:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1645400313; bh=NhrcFZXcZ38Wk/Apv2EWjPEnPX8Qkv6buG3X0Sa7JbM=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=IQaJKfFCsO8fRrXLFgoSiDRrvRma15I7K8YSznZoX9+T+62uN63X/4Sh/gbnNNIJ6 w87StfRtLwhIlz5tq/r2SBqKvjazaM2JfHbK0HpzvyO4ENGHFlGyaKcI4MIbgRhJfP I+kbDGD0J4GHJxma4a1r+KARqwPHrhDQAAX9PSAs= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K221h48ZYz1nw5j; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:38:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <15b0d719-7c61-6426-4c6c-6bde8554b3ec@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:38:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley , admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF - IETF Trust X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:38:38 -0000 If you are going to point out that multiple parties appoint members of the LLC Board, then you should note that the ISOC board appoints one Trustee, and the IESG appoints one Trustee. Yours, Joel On 2/20/2022 6:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > I’ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: > > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png > > While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. > > Any feedback most welcome. > > cheers > Jay > From nobody Sun Feb 20 15:43:24 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7184A3A03FC for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:43:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZDQwrPBp27sB for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 308CA3A02F9 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1505D404BFA1; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:43:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hFkcjnDMYo9n; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 80DE6404BFA0; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:43:16 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <15b0d719-7c61-6426-4c6c-6bde8554b3ec@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:11 +1300 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <15b0d719-7c61-6426-4c6c-6bde8554b3ec@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF - IETF Trust X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:43:22 -0000 Thanks for this and the other fixes. I will change this and the IAB one, = but the IRSG one was not spotted by Colin when I gave him and the IESG a = preview so I=E2=80=99ll check with him. Jay > On 21/02/2022, at 12:38 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > If you are going to point out that multiple parties appoint members of = the LLC Board, then you should note that the ISOC board appoints one = Trustee, and the IESG appoints one Trustee. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 2/20/2022 6:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >> I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >> While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >> Any feedback most welcome. >> cheers >> Jay >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Sun Feb 20 16:01:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E203A07D6; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:01:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0r6M3Qm8EhEM; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8192B3A07D2; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:01:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=N7tq7lHMhsfHfdC2zz1q4S0+XJc9I8PQxwYdhhDJDaY=; b=eMYQHeocykdhk33Och4POvQ/pr f8VtHMoW+fSdPIF8goMzfCKRpCWjSOSG0wje3JOwx86LfyDNDaaR9KTYiu1IYn+A34XSUUT02b+9z TRD2IlSGjAKjVMUyCSp+vJiat+7MkAMsdtyR+ve+az1y9IvXrbhcYefqw9eUOSbdyym06tudutzib VBtcfrCmhtPx0+/dlJZEOAh6X0QrtPe9RlMOt1dgNT8f1J4s7fp+QHcHEiUmEShCYF1csnA6HH79C GgmhonaP7oIJFaAiLwhj150NLgPdk36JVnTOoRhHTHZkxHxK0i6ADMcbj0KksBt0CGASkML7bQiGJ Nb6iCPUg==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=47356 helo=[192.168.0.67]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1nLw8E-0002gg-8E; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 00:01:00 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 00:00:39 +0000 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71363E39-B05E-4EB7-A832-460E678D192F@csperkins.org> References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <15b0d719-7c61-6426-4c6c-6bde8554b3ec@joelhalpern.com> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF - IETF Trust X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 00:01:10 -0000 The IAB appoints IRTF chair, so I agree that arrow should point to the = IRTF Chair. If I read RFC 2014 correctly, the IRTF chair appoints the IRSG members = subject to approval of the IAB. I=E2=80=99m not convinced that it=E2=80=99= s useful to include that level of detail on the chart, but happy for Jay = to update if he believes it is. Colin > On 20 Feb 2022, at 23:43, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Thanks for this and the other fixes. I will change this and the IAB = one, but the IRSG one was not spotted by Colin when I gave him and the = IESG a preview so I=E2=80=99ll check with him. >=20 > Jay >=20 >> On 21/02/2022, at 12:38 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >>=20 >> If you are going to point out that multiple parties appoint members = of the LLC Board, then you should note that the ISOC board appoints one = Trustee, and the IESG appoints one Trustee. >>=20 >> Yours, >> Joel >>=20 >> On 2/20/2022 6:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>> I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >>> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >>> While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >>> Any feedback most welcome. >>> cheers >>> Jay >>=20 >> --=20 >> admin-discuss mailing list >> admin-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Sun Feb 20 16:58:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16D83A09A3; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:58:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.811 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.811 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98JMFd5tjAH5; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x632.google.com (mail-pl1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64E713A0BF2; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x632.google.com with SMTP id z2so2932002plg.8; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:58:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RBvLmNW2cWl49uO2KIFjOcry/cSGH8y1w04ikRIEgg0=; b=RzD4MXQMsn8Lk1Kk7mkNKO5kef7okStknzrN9iuV+rgZZwenX+NcbhfnJKk06fiMvZ BTupVS2N1zB1ePhP68NDRO9EKgy2xMzDAkejpeBDSvaYLMquBj3aGaBSHO4w7h1o0QjA lOQy1ms70o32HI50GtjvG6x057JSOtVZyo/v6hU8Bv0tGLO5qACgJ6hlyBZ/zq5ATUKt 5ZR8KxMHJJm6iuQBk61wCRSR3PHNTOOcCbjrWSRkOYeOsV7NlOAKY970bObhWpSUiPml Ax06GZP0UZIPQ8zvXlefPcBjK4pfQj8LYjMse+tkOod5XUQlCsNOs/1jxx8xoLCV+Mp7 1XDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RBvLmNW2cWl49uO2KIFjOcry/cSGH8y1w04ikRIEgg0=; b=mYz1s2qMm/F/s/iVOPHJl8QMCbiTiwBVipMBXgqbqR5wI/vwVZh+Uppitz1O8JpjwX qcZuAJewq8/Sj+sgSe+x+x6JZPhWGOKXR7neRLfvHJvmw8f2GASJxCm22EACH27v0RyO Nm9mJINuN8FYVwzKe65vYeRRs8P2ygLro14BsXs2Vw4iSXoVcRSwNkKELQccux99bO0l qjwZcbaxxhgqpCAyNGmaqycPj1GuslY+nGmvlTm3N+gVW/8R8ehNI/iHLHRmpZXSAY/o GtLhXBT8yWiyNfgSOmUx07ZTQKQTluel9GnPmwugzdTxjentriUHN5kEs9w+HY+LG+C0 nVBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531NnyFJUY3biMfRSm+yihSQHH4F0MenxPYvDHE1I32McK1Mtnbl x60Tzjuyjh5ERKQiNUxkTvCv4YYJ62KEmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTiQRnvJDLcDfH6boqhtu6WHjCAWKSza9dV3k/rD3oA833AkU7f+2bmy7mSzWAIaHA29eMlg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9348:b0:14e:ec3d:2baa with SMTP id g8-20020a170902934800b0014eec3d2baamr16764459plp.107.1645405120286; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u19sm6348571pfk.203.2022.02.20.16.58.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:58:39 -0800 (PST) To: Jay Daley , admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <42dafdd9-dbfb-2ecd-e32a-0818e6d32b50@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:58:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 00:58:49 -0000 I need to buy a bigger screen ;-). Maybe an outsider needs a very simplif= ied version first, followed by this for the details. One missing component (I think) is the tools team itself, even if technic= ally "inside" the LLC. For a potential contractor, that would be the firs= t question: where do I fit in? Is there a way to show that the NomCom is populated from the community? Off topic: should there also be an IETF workflow diagram? I'm not aware o= f one on the web site. There have been personal efforts in the past, but = perhaps an agreed version would be helpful both to contractors and partic= ipants. Regards Brian Carpenter On 21-Feb-22 12:24, Jay Daley wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and inte= r-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.pn= g >=20 > While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >=20 > Any feedback most welcome. >=20 > cheers > Jay >=20 From nobody Sun Feb 20 17:24:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1352D3A0AA1 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:24:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YMZg7XWTdk-g for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D53663A0AA7 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39DA404BFA1; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSnKKGJLwKHH; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23BA6404BFA0; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:24:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <42dafdd9-dbfb-2ecd-e32a-0818e6d32b50@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:24:48 +1300 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B5E4B2E-0C19-4769-B5BD-DC2FE1FDA80E@ietf.org> References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <42dafdd9-dbfb-2ecd-e32a-0818e6d32b50@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 01:24:58 -0000 > On 21/02/2022, at 1:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > I need to buy a bigger screen ;-). Maybe an outsider needs a very = simplified version first, followed by this for the details. I=E2=80=99m sure they do - I=E2=80=99ll leave that to others though. >=20 > One missing component (I think) is the tools team itself, even if = technically "inside" the LLC. For a potential contractor, that would be = the first question: where do I fit in? I have added teams and the IRSG changes from a previous message >=20 > Is there a way to show that the NomCom is populated from the = community? Just looking at options. >=20 > Off topic: should there also be an IETF workflow diagram? I'm not = aware of one on the web site. There have been personal efforts in the = past, but perhaps an agreed version would be helpful both to contractors = and participants. I think these would be very helpful.=20 cheers Jay >=20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 > On 21-Feb-22 12:24, Jay Daley wrote: >> I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >> While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >> Any feedback most welcome. >> cheers >> Jay >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Feb 21 08:11:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318393A11A2; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 08:11:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kw4wvJeXiLU5; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 08:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oo1-xc29.google.com (mail-oo1-xc29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70B6C3A11A1; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 08:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oo1-xc29.google.com with SMTP id r15-20020a4ae5cf000000b002edba1d3349so13789219oov.3; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 08:11:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=sqPRi03CWdTSFPpBCs+uQGEoUhB/nVNJfagPDzLAyA8=; b=J2fmsDih2Nv1xzuYf1Ij7kdFrZdurg226j2IR9FRBIWyop1Z18JzEBf8QlnAf03OwD KJphlKnkSRf0bhrvKW6rzBG06VfEQanvq875mFlP4vNUf3M/+9PqG28Uge45ItOxcjxH EQuydEWk9zNm/jQNC2qtGUiJJNo9ZsnWcalVc1jXarkC1Hv8HSBs5pE7XcNOa47Aq+cv HkvG4y8q7KFntpEz7GPStsa03VorlEDGYN5guahLIjJ/rmzx+wEu4I0RF756eQeCDMr+ ezkudpjTYlNdHVrp87hGwWC8BMEtR2XilM1ssW5NxiE9tBLWPE0wzUd166/4QDrQMO1i /oGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=sqPRi03CWdTSFPpBCs+uQGEoUhB/nVNJfagPDzLAyA8=; b=W1Y6ic1ntJ5blp4kZ5gRuRHXLQpjq7eJaE9Z1yi9OfvjQ9cQ0RW9aHYLqctGzop13p Zbcw1E/qbdZc4v9f70Hq7wAtdm/sBj0VRTGqPG7zE/bm5Uhgv530ciJUfyG98iGHQLyc S/IiXU+a3+m/QgdSXn3t2BVkHOhWSc/nGry7l+CxXhy3tLGUati+gVPtYCEY3K5UIsCE j+qHgRyPt5VM4iTPfN25H+l0m4dcxNPxZzHb1eE/DWwtP0dJRwEQZmkKRISEYBUl/p4/ inAPQ0j9Oky5suIDAV29QtMjYc+CHLMvvjNiIDL4kZv8IZnSmOHKyYXlk8lsNkOxWyR0 hK8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tBREtBCtQj5pJqc2S3BTiRb95LF+eaHgdbXvb8HGHpgQpUiMh ry7Wa2xY3hRLAvbFRA06D94XOcxWOZM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyW8pZbTNthOIc41OZumTfHoVatmixCsqYYpslDdNtMwPuLwPozy0MZ+V9ED9sn57e4Ywoj2Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9108:b0:ce:c0c9:5dc with SMTP id o8-20020a056870910800b000cec0c905dcmr9738384oae.46.1645459878044; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 08:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:1700:4383:c05f:10a8:8d3c:da27:f436]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j6sm7044937oil.36.2022.02.21.08.11.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Feb 2022 08:11:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_56394D70-F15B-4A81-A068-F22FE6D7E81D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 08:11:15 -0800 Cc: Bob Hinden , admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 16:11:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_56394D70-F15B-4A81-A068-F22FE6D7E81D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Jay, Quite an undertaking! No good deed shall go unpunished :-) A few comments: Looking at this, it would appear that ISOC is part of the IETF. The = ISOC community might be surprised to learn this. Having the NOMCOM on top, might cause some to conclude it=E2=80=99s the = main leadership body for all below it. I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing volunteers, = vs. hiring employees/contractors. For example, the ISOC board hires = (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the IRTF chair. =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is used in different ways. ISOC =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80= =9D the IETF LLC is quite different from the IESG =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D = Working Groups. I am not sure that =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is quite = right for relationship between the IESG and Working Groups. = =E2=80=9CCharters=E2=80=9D might be better. Lastly, the use of black and white to distinguish different kinds of = roles in the KEY is very subtle. You might consider also using colors = or shading. Bob > On Feb 20, 2022, at 3:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >=20 > = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >=20 > While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >=20 > Any feedback most welcome. >=20 > cheers > Jay >=20 > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > -- > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss --Apple-Mail=_56394D70-F15B-4A81-A068-F22FE6D7E81D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmITuaMACgkQrut0EXfn u6j4Jwf/QwSfjSN4tTE/jK4aRTUa+wjxS5zOaxj7AwRwk6KRA0c26qPq0/axdQAo A9TggBX9RvRSOEJwnawwH6QaoZFETyPMvzzxbNgQh3VNEUp9ueH+Oux8ah1Y4FH5 nkQmDNaLx4qvAl039NCeMfKEew8ngPf+gl8dTVQkP00N0R2cHqkbZ4JIToLbDogO FmFwEAYj7+8SSJ8SOws9a6HqIj8wrMLF8q2c2ETkR8xkrZjnuYNaTmtu30tGQRO7 uG+1wegd3K6On2DYoAT40lYm7zYltuh+l8PUW3j3UBBkDYeLUB6mIw+kV3+j6evJ 4M+FpW5+58h28Xp0PNQPhn/YrfClSQ== =ZV6/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_56394D70-F15B-4A81-A068-F22FE6D7E81D-- From nobody Mon Feb 21 09:17:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D573A08D0; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 09:17:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrQQcUpWI9zq; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 09:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (mail3.g24.pair.com [66.39.134.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C21293A08F2; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 09:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8756012652B; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pfs.iad.rg.net [198.180.150.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 79DB7126789; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:16:59 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:16:58 -0500 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <27DC4E49-D922-4E22-B425-08E501E2AA1A@vigilsec.com> References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 17:17:06 -0000 Jay: IANA is missing. The IAB provides oversign, but it does not "own" ot = "appoint" any of the resources. The IETF Trust does "own" the IANA IPR = (i.e., trademark and domain name). Russ > On Feb 20, 2022, at 6:24 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >=20 > = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >=20 > While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >=20 > Any feedback most welcome. >=20 > cheers > Jay >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss From nobody Mon Feb 21 11:58:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A7C3A0CFB for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:58:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=ms6iglVi; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=SWRiAh8w Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZlJfanScuWCg for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 793D33A0CE8 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68146 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2022 19:58:27 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=10a2f.6213eee3.k2202; bh=3WsG2bNZp0fVbl0UL0RsxiRT0+XZObxwCEusHXreGPA=; b=ms6iglViLklvFdfhBiI3wUCcyNtjAy3gazfuz+wKWxXpgqItx5Kj8/mEnSBEEwZkM8SLUF1Gt4TjCH2skaNbNHQvB2nV3LhQyf7OgPWNMDgsGvOAkkH3UjDv6aGEUZOC5dJgQyxGApzJ4mVyALtjkIhkCVvrMnsy6zgEkzdkXKBcC322yLTGajsphpgqJVMPiTx2RwrgP60W0fU1ZjPOjwZeEjDKRUYz0NOzySeMFZAnyTmk/FM39xmwaenv6k18ax+veZOK8L0mgI8fUjtYE/iWU40bOAbAh6m9i9oQrwMMaeKPIShXJMXCr2FoVtlMkDF0kF1UsvIR5F07CnEykQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=10a2f.6213eee3.k2202; bh=3WsG2bNZp0fVbl0UL0RsxiRT0+XZObxwCEusHXreGPA=; b=SWRiAh8w0jegpR2fiKDmToDJdl4JlbB3Ddvb7x5ap+TDb6pSfgrkI3wXiWR6H1dMVuFunQxrtYl8C+PGO0M8uL5sOM2N0CfOIQ1s17ogPegy7+NTmrc00yNtOl7G8VGDLfAeIswVbn5BfS/+oo11x1Qhl6zeBL5aXuS7g1dtaKyqhRxVCKshZBxDmVi1s/1ZUhKEBoI5qhZaAadE5q606kx/5rwha9q79xZwHOkxazwVcq/CG+gkc5lrfN5isFyw7jaSRcUadZTujyXQlUfcKQfHtwtc4qSU0SEPS/g4EhaXUfnWz1NIHtjL7rlVVey9UbMDW8Hbu9MqeZFu7ir0tA== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 21 Feb 2022 19:58:26 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 512AD37BAC2A; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:58:24 -0500 (EST) Date: 21 Feb 2022 14:58:24 -0500 Message-Id: <20220221195826.512AD37BAC2A@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Cc: housley@vigilsec.com In-Reply-To: <27DC4E49-D922-4E22-B425-08E501E2AA1A@vigilsec.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:58:35 -0000 It appears that Russ Housley said: >Jay: > >IANA is missing. The IAB provides oversign, but it does not "own" ot "appoint" any of the resources. The IETF Trust does "own" the IANA IPR >(i.e., trademark and domain name). The IAB provides oversight to 1/3 of IANA, the parameters part. The Trust does legally own the IPR but has contracts with PTI to do all of the actual work. I don't think either of these are worth putting in the picture unless we all get much larger screens. R's, John From nobody Mon Feb 21 12:02:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A5F3A1012 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:01:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YRSzfRE8vH6v for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (mail3.g24.pair.com [66.39.134.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49B853A102A for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19606DD914; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pfs.iad.rg.net [198.180.150.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0CEAFDD72A; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:01:40 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <20220221195826.512AD37BAC2A@ary.qy> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:01:39 -0500 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D4601F7-7EA3-4948-A841-EDC039708509@vigilsec.com> References: <20220221195826.512AD37BAC2A@ary.qy> To: John Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:02:02 -0000 > On Feb 21, 2022, at 2:58 PM, John Levine wrote: >=20 > It appears that Russ Housley said: >> Jay: >>=20 >> IANA is missing. The IAB provides oversign, but it does not "own" ot = "appoint" any of the resources. The IETF Trust does "own" the IANA IPR >> (i.e., trademark and domain name). >=20 > The IAB provides oversight to 1/3 of IANA, the parameters part. The > Trust does legally own the IPR but has contracts with PTI to do all of > the actual work. I don't think either of these are worth putting in > the picture unless we all get much larger screens. I think that IANA Protocol Parameters should me on the picture, but I do = not know how to label the arrows. Russ From nobody Mon Feb 21 12:17:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9117E3A0ACA for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:17:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sJpFjI1jkOLz for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D83313A0770 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0554092790; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:17:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 41pDg9mKgGVh; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C816A404BFB3; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:17:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_97429306-06F9-4304-B6CF-7D2C80C04C45"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:17:49 +1300 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> To: Bob Hinden X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:17:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_97429306-06F9-4304-B6CF-7D2C80C04C45 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 22/02/2022, at 5:11 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 > Jay, >=20 > Quite an undertaking! No good deed shall go unpunished :-) >=20 > A few comments: >=20 > Looking at this, it would appear that ISOC is part of the IETF. The = ISOC community might be surprised to learn this. The title includes "and inter-related organisations" partly to cover = ISOC and partly because some people insist that "IETF" cannot be used as = an umbrella term to include the IAB/IRTF while others insist that it has = been used as such for many years. >=20 > Having the NOMCOM on top, might cause some to conclude it=E2=80=99s = the main leadership body for all below it. I put it at the top because of the appointment authority but I agree = that this needs some form of adjustment, as Brian suggested, to explain = how it is constructed. If we were instead to have the IESG/IAB etc as = the top layer then the arrows would likely become unmanageable. >=20 > I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing volunteers, = vs. hiring employees/contractors. For example, the ISOC board hires = (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the IRTF chair. That is captured by the box style - thick lines for community appointed = bodies and double lines for contracted roles. >=20 > =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is used in different ways. ISOC =E2=80=9Cowns=E2= =80=9D the IETF LLC is quite different from the IESG =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D= Working Groups. I am not sure that =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is quite = right for relationship between the IESG and Working Groups. = =E2=80=9CCharters=E2=80=9D might be better. Agree and 'charters' is a better word. >=20 > Lastly, the use of black and white to distinguish different kinds of = roles in the KEY is very subtle. You might consider also using colors = or shading. I was trying to avoid colour because of the problems with that - I will = look at shading. Jay >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 >> On Feb 20, 2022, at 3:24 PM, Jay Daley = wrote: >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >>=20 >> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >>=20 >> While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >>=20 >> Any feedback most welcome. >>=20 >> cheers >> Jay >>=20 >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >>=20 >> -- >> admin-discuss mailing list >> admin-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >=20 -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_97429306-06F9-4304-B6CF-7D2C80C04C45 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEteUdwVZRcQwi2bcWICxpEHTRWFMFAmIT820ACgkQICxpEHTR WFNw9w//fsKdmP51aNC892QMlFD+05ySLtEfX3oVbTmGe9uVmlomySpCuWrEH5EU kwOChH8TUKfAY83O+miKzw/EE98SLXORPm7LK3XWp0kRYMMBAssvH5U/Es8IZi7X vQrWeaGMwuTmWPyuz+Scl8d6oXMJhROwKZSC1eLDvnzfzbdkTagEjDFKMtlAqKT8 X31QcAZHWvSgbcZOTKWnXLrCEMqXRxmcM9W3GgsmH1AnZ6KJLJbiNZSdjkXGg8yS XujdPwstt7QdZUBlU3Tsh3KyE2AxUYruNC59rvbWzr+uTeWM5J1EO1TiC+g3v1Nq xq0bgUQEBfVJKL5F7ybR6Nf0tER4mj3qOqCovTnWoTuJ8+F4LxML5wFSrzTJMoZQ IAlPyiIs3Jfoax9awICLEieJwPJMsfNVhmqe/uFNOE7kn5nGldr4Q7bgSwmXncEr pjjhlyTu8BU4UEo0vsJi0dWVtbHFeys8kfE07CRgLgIyC996BRXg0Y9M/Nvm5sgx C9vW0BTru2S2XZDhyPV5G2OpZ3d0gv7lHtmEZFu4+XsQGBdu+MbQkkS3bQEffDw2 WCy5bTw7tzR7EtSgzNWE6cYorhU3hTPVM3JMrXyB3QGB+NoIyCZSsJKPZun/MFo+ Ak/Skz5X2luQXd4CeeyvYtUMcV79nL2B0oentC3BofwkGwLwGQw= =wR2Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_97429306-06F9-4304-B6CF-7D2C80C04C45-- From nobody Mon Feb 21 13:01:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB5F3A0147 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:01:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hoOEMM04nJdo for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1EA83A02BC for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B712E4092790; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:01:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FE8q_x-fzDWh; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 09788404BFB3; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:01:15 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <3D4601F7-7EA3-4948-A841-EDC039708509@vigilsec.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 10:01:11 +1300 Cc: John Levine , admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22A0619B-928A-4CFB-8AC3-50F3848BB5B3@ietf.org> References: <20220221195826.512AD37BAC2A@ary.qy> <3D4601F7-7EA3-4948-A841-EDC039708509@vigilsec.com> To: Russ Housley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 21:01:22 -0000 > On 22/02/2022, at 9:01 AM, Russ Housley wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Feb 21, 2022, at 2:58 PM, John Levine wrote: >>=20 >> It appears that Russ Housley said: >>> Jay: >>>=20 >>> IANA is missing. The IAB provides oversign, but it does not "own" = ot "appoint" any of the resources. The IETF Trust does "own" the IANA = IPR >>> (i.e., trademark and domain name). >>=20 >> The IAB provides oversight to 1/3 of IANA, the parameters part. The >> Trust does legally own the IPR but has contracts with PTI to do all = of >> the actual work. I don't think either of these are worth putting in >> the picture unless we all get much larger screens. >=20 > I think that IANA Protocol Parameters should me on the picture, but I = do not know how to label the arrows. I agree that IANA should be there but the intent of this diagram is = structure (bodies and roles) not assets or processes (for other = diagrams) and so it should be IANA the org not the protocol parameters. = As IANA has a liaison role on the iESG and IAB I can add at least those = arrows. Jay >=20 > Russ >=20 > --=20 > admin-discuss mailing list > admin-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Feb 21 13:07:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227E13A07B5 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:07:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4NdDYd-BKwIr for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC2BA3A07AE for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918BC4092790; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:07:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s8wrARWxue9H; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01307404BFB3; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:07:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <6F023E98-7991-4DE0-9990-63E3F3A99AFB@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F597C4CF-0264-411F-840C-790F60DC8F4F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 10:07:39 +1300 In-Reply-To: <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org To: Bob Hinden References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 21:07:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F597C4CF-0264-411F-840C-790F60DC8F4F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_27B48A26-99DB-48A3-BFB0-272055447D70" --Apple-Mail=_27B48A26-99DB-48A3-BFB0-272055447D70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 New version now posted, which addresses all of this (except the position = of NomCom) and adds IANA. Also includes some lines tweaks to improve = readability. Jay > On 22/02/2022, at 9:17 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 >=20 >> On 22/02/2022, at 5:11 AM, Bob Hinden > wrote: >>=20 >> Jay, >>=20 >> Quite an undertaking! No good deed shall go unpunished :-) >>=20 >> A few comments: >>=20 >> Looking at this, it would appear that ISOC is part of the IETF. The = ISOC community might be surprised to learn this. >=20 > The title includes "and inter-related organisations" partly to cover = ISOC and partly because some people insist that "IETF" cannot be used as = an umbrella term to include the IAB/IRTF while others insist that it has = been used as such for many years. >=20 >>=20 >> Having the NOMCOM on top, might cause some to conclude it=E2=80=99s = the main leadership body for all below it. >=20 > I put it at the top because of the appointment authority but I agree = that this needs some form of adjustment, as Brian suggested, to explain = how it is constructed. If we were instead to have the IESG/IAB etc as = the top layer then the arrows would likely become unmanageable. >>=20 >> I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing = volunteers, vs. hiring employees/contractors. For example, the ISOC = board hires (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the = IRTF chair. >=20 > That is captured by the box style - thick lines for community = appointed bodies and double lines for contracted roles. >=20 >>=20 >> =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is used in different ways. ISOC =E2=80=9Cowns=E2= =80=9D the IETF LLC is quite different from the IESG =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D= Working Groups. I am not sure that =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is quite = right for relationship between the IESG and Working Groups. = =E2=80=9CCharters=E2=80=9D might be better. >=20 > Agree and 'charters' is a better word. >=20 >>=20 >> Lastly, the use of black and white to distinguish different kinds of = roles in the KEY is very subtle. You might consider also using colors = or shading. >=20 > I was trying to avoid colour because of the problems with that - I = will look at shading. >=20 > Jay >=20 >>=20 >> Bob >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Feb 20, 2022, at 3:24 PM, Jay Daley = wrote: >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >>>=20 >>> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >>>=20 >>> While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >>>=20 >>> Any feedback most welcome. >>>=20 >>> cheers >>> Jay >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Jay Daley >>> IETF Executive Director >>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>=20 >>> -- >>> admin-discuss mailing list >>> admin-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >>=20 >=20 > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 >=20 >=20 -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_27B48A26-99DB-48A3-BFB0-272055447D70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 New = version now posted, which addresses all of this (except the position of = NomCom) and adds IANA.  Also includes some lines tweaks to improve = readability.

Jay


On 22/02/2022, at 9:17 AM, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

Signed PGP = part


On 22/02/2022, at 5:11 = AM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:

Jay,

Quite an undertaking! =   No good deed shall go unpunished :-)

A few comments:

Looking at this, = it would appear that ISOC is part of the IETF.   The ISOC = community might be surprised to learn this.
The title includes "and inter-related organisations" partly = to cover ISOC and partly because some people insist that "IETF" cannot = be used as an umbrella term to include the IAB/IRTF while others insist = that it has been used as such for many years.


Having = the NOMCOM on top, might cause some to conclude it=E2=80=99s the main = leadership body for all below it.

I put it at the top because of the appointment authority but = I agree that this needs some form of adjustment, as Brian suggested, to = explain how it is constructed.  If we were instead to have the = IESG/IAB etc as the top layer then the arrows would likely become = unmanageable.

I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing = volunteers, vs. hiring employees/contractors.   For example, = the ISOC board hires (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB = appointing the IRTF chair.

That = is captured by the box style - thick lines for community appointed = bodies and double lines for contracted roles.


=E2=80=9Cow= ns=E2=80=9D is used in different ways.   ISOC =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80= =9D the IETF LLC is quite different from the IESG =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D = Working Groups.  I am not sure that =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is quite = right for relationship between the IESG and Working Groups. =  =E2=80=9CCharters=E2=80=9D might be better.

Agree and 'charters' is a better = word.


Lastly, the use of black and white to = distinguish different kinds of roles in the KEY is very subtle. =  You might consider also using colors or shading.

I was trying to avoid colour = because of the problems with that - I will look at shading.

Jay


Bob


On Feb = 20, 2022, at 3:24 PM, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the = IETF and inter-related organisations to assist new staff and = contractors:

https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_= 2022.png

While the RSWG/RSAB are not = officially approved, they are included.

Any = feedback most welcome.

cheers
Jay

--
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

--
admin-discuss mailing list
admin-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss


--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5C73A0859 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:51:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1iRAszg0dfqM for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91B4B3A07F5 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77BA94092790; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:51:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V_p7ppi63awz; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3B1C404BFB3; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:51:00 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <6C75A0F8-DADC-4C8E-9232-92F606275FB9@nbcuni.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 10:50:55 +1300 Cc: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <998C0678-12F7-4BC0-B68E-4AD57035FD2C@ietf.org> References: <6C75A0F8-DADC-4C8E-9232-92F606275FB9@nbcuni.com> To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 21:51:06 -0000 > On 22/02/2022, at 10:21 AM, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) = wrote: >=20 > Might be good to show that the various groups (IAB,IESG, Trust, LLC) = provide Liaisons to the noncom. Nomcom liaisons just observers but are = non-voting members of the noncom so while they don=E2=80=99t vote on = candidates they do get a say in how the nomcom operates. They greatly = help the nomcom process by trying bringing expertise to the voting = members about the needs of the group and the roll they=E2=80=99ve been = sent from. Yes, good point. That will necessitate opening up the NomCom box to = split out the internal roles (as per the IESG/IAB), which may in turn = mean moving that box. I=E2=80=99ll pick that up tomorrow. Jay > =20 > -glenn > =20 > On 2/21/22, 1:08 PM, "admin-discuss on behalf of Jay Daley" = = wrote: > =20 > New version now posted, which addresses all of this (except the = position of NomCom) and adds IANA. Also includes some lines tweaks to = improve readability. > =20 > Jay > =20 >=20 >=20 >> On 22/02/2022, at 9:17 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >> =20 >> Signed PGP part >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 22/02/2022, at 5:11 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>>=20 >>> Jay, >>>=20 >>> Quite an undertaking! No good deed shall go unpunished :-) >>>=20 >>> A few comments: >>>=20 >>> Looking at this, it would appear that ISOC is part of the IETF. = The ISOC community might be surprised to learn this. >>=20 >> The title includes "and inter-related organisations" partly to cover = ISOC and partly because some people insist that "IETF" cannot be used as = an umbrella term to include the IAB/IRTF while others insist that it has = been used as such for many years. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Having the NOMCOM on top, might cause some to conclude it=E2=80=99s = the main leadership body for all below it. >>=20 >> I put it at the top because of the appointment authority but I agree = that this needs some form of adjustment, as Brian suggested, to explain = how it is constructed. If we were instead to have the IESG/IAB etc as = the top layer then the arrows would likely become unmanageable. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing = volunteers, vs. hiring employees/contractors. For example, the ISOC = board hires (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the = IRTF chair. >>=20 >> That is captured by the box style - thick lines for community = appointed bodies and double lines for contracted roles. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is used in different ways. ISOC =E2=80=9Cowns= =E2=80=9D the IETF LLC is quite different from the IESG =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80= =9D Working Groups. I am not sure that =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is quite = right for relationship between the IESG and Working Groups. = =E2=80=9CCharters=E2=80=9D might be better. >>=20 >> Agree and 'charters' is a better word. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Lastly, the use of black and white to distinguish different kinds of = roles in the KEY is very subtle. You might consider also using colors = or shading. >>=20 >> I was trying to avoid colour because of the problems with that - I = will look at shading. >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Bob >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Feb 20, 2022, at 3:24 PM, Jay Daley = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >>>>=20 >>>> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >>>>=20 >>>> While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >>>>=20 >>>> Any feedback most welcome. >>>>=20 >>>> cheers >>>> Jay >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Jay Daley >>>> IETF Executive Director >>>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> admin-discuss mailing list >>>> admin-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >>> =20 >>=20 >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> =20 > =20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Feb 21 13:58:24 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754E43A0895; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:58:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nbcuni.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5nnhQbK8n3yo; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00176a04.pphosted.com (mx0b-00176a04.pphosted.com [67.231.157.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E79803A087D; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0193500.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0193500.ppops.net-00176a04. 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([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a29sm18865271pgl.24.2022.02.21.14.23.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:23:43 -0800 (PST) To: Jay Daley , Bob Hinden Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> <6F023E98-7991-4DE0-9990-63E3F3A99AFB@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <80550864-8ada-2940-4062-d4ab200b085a@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 11:23:39 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F023E98-7991-4DE0-9990-63E3F3A99AFB@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 22:23:50 -0000 Thanks, this is getting better and better. IANA is not just a liaison relationship. It's actually a service provider=20 to the IETF, but under organisational agreements rather than a contract h= eld by the LLC. Also, should it be inside a box labelled ICANN? Regards Brian On 22-Feb-22 10:07, Jay Daley wrote: > New version now posted, which addresses all of this (except the positio= n of NomCom) and adds IANA. =C2=A0Also includes some lines tweaks to impr= ove readability. >=20 > Jay >=20 >=20 >> On 22/02/2022, at 9:17 AM, Jay Daley > wrote: >> >> Signed PGP part >> >> >>> On 22/02/2022, at 5:11 AM, Bob Hinden > wrote: >>> >>> Jay, >>> >>> Quite an undertaking! =C2=A0=C2=A0No good deed shall go unpunished :-= ) >>> >>> A few comments: >>> >>> Looking at this, it would appear that ISOC is part of the IETF. =C2=A0= =C2=A0The ISOC community might be surprised to learn this. >> >> The title includes "and inter-related organisations" partly to cover I= SOC and partly because some people insist that "IETF" cannot be used as a= n umbrella term to include the IAB/IRTF while others insist that it has b= een used as such for many years. >> >>> >>> Having the NOMCOM on top, might cause some to conclude it=E2=80=99s t= he main leadership body for all below it. >> >> I put it at the top because of the appointment authority but I agree t= hat this needs some form of adjustment, as Brian suggested, to explain ho= w it is constructed. =C2=A0If we were instead to have the IESG/IAB etc as=20 the top layer then the arrows would likely become unmanageable. >>> >>> I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing volunteers= , vs. hiring employees/contractors. =C2=A0=C2=A0For example, the ISOC boa= rd hires (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the IRT= F chair. >> >> That is captured by the box style - thick lines for community appointe= d bodies and double lines for contracted roles. >> >>> >>> =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is used in different ways. =C2=A0=C2=A0ISOC =E2= =80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D the IETF LLC is quite different from the IESG =E2=80=9C= owns=E2=80=9D Working Groups. =C2=A0I am not sure that =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80= =9D is quite right for relationship between the IESG and Working Groups. = =C2=A0=E2=80=9CCharters=E2=80=9D might be better. >> >> Agree and 'charters' is a better word. >> >>> >>> Lastly, the use of black and white to distinguish different kinds of = roles in the KEY is very subtle. =C2=A0You might consider also using colo= rs or shading. >> >> I was trying to avoid colour because of the problems with that - I wil= l look at shading. >> >> Jay >> >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>>> On Feb 20, 2022, at 3:24 PM, Jay Daley > wrote: >>>> >>>> I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and i= nter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >>>> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.= png >>>> >>>> While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are included. >>>> >>>> Any feedback most welcome. >>>> >>>> cheers >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jay Daley >>>> IETF Executive Director >>>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>> >>>> -- >>>> admin-discuss mailing list >>>> admin-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >>> >> >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >> >> >> >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Feb 21 14:52:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F803A09E6 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:52:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eaVdAzHU6GjT for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D56483A09E1 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B1C4092790; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:52:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0MY-lXDIvU7; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 134DF404BFB3; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:52:29 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <80550864-8ada-2940-4062-d4ab200b085a@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 11:52:26 +1300 Cc: Bob Hinden , admin-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <58B127B5-7609-4073-AA22-F8F904898A18@ietf.org> References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> <6F023E98-7991-4DE0-9990-63E3F3A99AFB@ietf.org> <80550864-8ada-2940-4062-d4ab200b085a@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 22:52:34 -0000 > On 22/02/2022, at 11:23 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Thanks, this is getting better and better. >=20 > IANA is not just a liaison relationship. It's actually a service = provider to the IETF, but under organisational agreements rather than a = contract held by the LLC. Yes, that could be captured. > Also, should it be inside a box labelled ICANN? No as it=E2=80=99s the function not the company that needs recording. = The Secretariat and RPC are not inside a box labelled AMS. Jay >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 22-Feb-22 10:07, Jay Daley wrote: >> New version now posted, which addresses all of this (except the = position of NomCom) and adds IANA. Also includes some lines tweaks to = improve readability. >> Jay >>> On 22/02/2022, at 9:17 AM, Jay Daley > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Signed PGP part >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 22/02/2022, at 5:11 AM, Bob Hinden > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Jay, >>>>=20 >>>> Quite an undertaking! No good deed shall go unpunished :-) >>>>=20 >>>> A few comments: >>>>=20 >>>> Looking at this, it would appear that ISOC is part of the IETF. = The ISOC community might be surprised to learn this. >>>=20 >>> The title includes "and inter-related organisations" partly to cover = ISOC and partly because some people insist that "IETF" cannot be used as = an umbrella term to include the IAB/IRTF while others insist that it has = been used as such for many years. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Having the NOMCOM on top, might cause some to conclude it=E2=80=99s = the main leadership body for all below it. >>>=20 >>> I put it at the top because of the appointment authority but I agree = that this needs some form of adjustment, as Brian suggested, to explain = how it is constructed. If we were instead to have the IESG/IAB etc as=20= > the top layer then the arrows would likely become unmanageable. >>>>=20 >>>> I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing = volunteers, vs. hiring employees/contractors. For example, the ISOC = board hires (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the = IRTF chair. >>>=20 >>> That is captured by the box style - thick lines for community = appointed bodies and double lines for contracted roles. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is used in different ways. ISOC =E2=80=9Cown= s=E2=80=9D the IETF LLC is quite different from the IESG =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80= =9D Working Groups. I am not sure that =E2=80=9Cowns=E2=80=9D is quite = right for relationship between the IESG and Working Groups. = =E2=80=9CCharters=E2=80=9D might be better. >>>=20 >>> Agree and 'charters' is a better word. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Lastly, the use of black and white to distinguish different kinds = of roles in the KEY is very subtle. You might consider also using = colors or shading. >>>=20 >>> I was trying to avoid colour because of the problems with that - I = will look at shading. >>>=20 >>> Jay >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Bob >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Feb 20, 2022, at 3:24 PM, Jay Daley > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I=E2=80=99ve had a go at diagramming the structure of the IETF and = inter-related organisations to assist new staff and contractors: >>>>>=20 >>>>> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png = >>>>>=20 >>>>> While the RSWG/RSAB are not officially approved, they are = included. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Any feedback most welcome. >>>>>=20 >>>>> cheers >>>>> Jay >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- >>>>> Jay Daley >>>>> IETF Executive Director >>>>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- >>>>> admin-discuss mailing list >>>>> admin-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/admin-discuss >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Jay Daley >>> IETF Executive Director >>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Feb 21 15:21:21 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723413A0B6D; 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Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:1700:4383:c05f:10a8:8d3c:da27:f436]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c5sm5477313otm.64.2022.02.21.15.21.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:21:16 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CDAE7DDD-BCDF-49B8-BF6B-8BF8F90DE767"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:21:14 -0800 Cc: Bob Hinden , admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <49BE4C0D-87F7-4B5B-8342-789E678F0238@gmail.com> References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 23:21:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CDAE7DDD-BCDF-49B8-BF6B-8BF8F90DE767 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Jay, > On Feb 21, 2022, at 12:17 PM, Jay Daley = wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing = volunteers, vs. hiring employees/contractors. For example, the ISOC = board hires (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the = IRTF chair. >=20 > That is captured by the box style - thick lines for community = appointed bodies and double lines for contracted roles. I don=E2=80=99t think that relates to my suggestion. I think you = should distinguish between hiring someone (ISOC CEO, IETF Exec Dir, = etc.) and for example, appointing a w.g. chair. They both currently = use dotted lines a text =E2=80=9Cappoint=E2=80=9D. A general comment, I wonder if this digram is trying to capture so much = information in different line styles, box styles, etc., that it is = becoming less useful (without a document that explains it). Bob --Apple-Mail=_CDAE7DDD-BCDF-49B8-BF6B-8BF8F90DE767 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmIUHmoACgkQrut0EXfn u6iW3QgAtxUjvuY5igqDuKc5iZBTYeh1VM7m7OX9VcO1sQMdfzYfMYfWnQU3Bi7v 5/amqmTagnw2eI/wXgnZ8VtPzO5TBG9jogyhcVA/ZqhvXTIg+ynk/m4gKWtnJUDJ ZE08ke8M/YfkxlFMJqrZfI2dZxKhFdVx//FKFtSylCie0gYALLnFm+FBe4RjnIQN rZAVokyy2MAQzrs3KwIrrdtz3MzQT0r0ruLzrJ1G09G5yflmsoi8thSrZ/UFCjt0 0R2jVK+nQRCfS5XENjOqkEu3c99OWMxYD1RH3FqAk+F2xCDG+xc/5jOaQXRDZ+/O ylLPJiJ6Qblave2+3B27m9wF59Uz4A== =8OGX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_CDAE7DDD-BCDF-49B8-BF6B-8BF8F90DE767-- From nobody Mon Feb 21 19:17:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19EB13A112D for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:17:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B8c6v_bExws2 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 975753A112A for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D564092790; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:17:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o4hCf_glBue8; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E01F8404BFB3; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:17:04 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B53B8740-6838-48C7-B3BE-C66D01480F42"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <49BE4C0D-87F7-4B5B-8342-789E678F0238@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:17:00 +1300 Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> <49BE4C0D-87F7-4B5B-8342-789E678F0238@gmail.com> To: Bob Hinden X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:17:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B53B8740-6838-48C7-B3BE-C66D01480F42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 22/02/2022, at 12:21 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 > Jay, >=20 >> On Feb 21, 2022, at 12:17 PM, Jay Daley = wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing = volunteers, vs. hiring employees/contractors. For example, the ISOC = board hires (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the = IRTF chair. >>=20 >> That is captured by the box style - thick lines for community = appointed bodies and double lines for contracted roles. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t think that relates to my suggestion. I think you = should distinguish between hiring someone (ISOC CEO, IETF Exec Dir, = etc.) and for example, appointing a w.g. chair. They both currently = use dotted lines a text =E2=80=9Cappoint=E2=80=9D. Yes I understood - the difference is captured by the border of the = subject of the appointment, where hired roles have the double line = border, as do all contracted/legal entities. However, I have changed = "appoints" to "employs" for clarity. >=20 > A general comment, I wonder if this digram is trying to capture so = much information in different line styles, box styles, etc., that it is = becoming less useful (without a document that explains it). Ultimately this is only a map, it=E2=80=99s the territory that it is = mapping that has the underlying complexity. New version now up with all the changes people have asked for (I think) = including creating a flat structure by moving the NomCom. = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png Jay >=20 > Bob >=20 -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_B53B8740-6838-48C7-B3BE-C66D01480F42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEteUdwVZRcQwi2bcWICxpEHTRWFMFAmIUVawACgkQICxpEHTR WFM+vg//cqJ3oq4FtF0GERDRhV+WkNEDopcjxhFaWJAVl74F/hBY6Ms/fu8e9lD+ xdYnJpdSolMJ5WnqW3A1c+nxNgQvhgPvGQ2CDTJNUA2pS6Pf6TyiBU1gFtUkB8Ix lM7MxybdolgW/wiJQVkuQSIP2xgzH4mzVeTDbcZD1E6d9ed0cN04HYykYngpcc9T HXQVT0Ax/6kieazupq+gaLJIKWo6VeWQYkkM2YEFlb6F42TfxRX8xyKVrUzZAfqS vgkLwc36ZMxf+DfUstKLlTvlWAO0Y1Zqtz54oHvD5s8Lb77VlRqCTkZ7f4RYMjTG X2twSSupWpc4jKtFcb+uk0Rirqeg4yD4UtJmP4LMfZdumdFu5EYb9Y/HhfxJ2Fj/ nWqGKK6fDqmQE27Zc1dalsCW0QGC56dgjbA4mHVIpvSRL7cGIoQY4lcUPD622Jbo yeU6nheHWwSEmiVkLuO4c7Xob84SYJeOUFw/NA8F3wQtz0rNTNQkKUtZxNXE5vFv KCwYPgblsDnjU2DbzgoLx5fSBMg9Etqc7G0aYFXMnm78kT2hT6JwWKWT/TGJ75/b RqMsBUUgfqcly3Hdv2uBqcQcuL/fbRWcc9p4DGTTBNq/v9B7yagYhPh1yxMRHpkk 0tX1TvCa3WPcHpd3agt38YNYO3WuNVDOCS0F8Wv9FVnsdkXEsao= =ADS1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B53B8740-6838-48C7-B3BE-C66D01480F42-- From nobody Mon Feb 21 20:55:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D149C3A10DD; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:55:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K7AIQ53G6qNw; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 310D63A0D34; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id u1so30638442wrg.11; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:55:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=xzjPAb8jWhL6++66gyWTNDyGqF9OTR1YL8W33M3wkHA=; b=PZBQx8oZthZVDK96ai7rGUvz6TaGO5Juu5RrI7yiPLwEAr3RMERlhzr/Ll3DtT4dOa 36PR/Aic6fq8C+b17iQps87AJ3bMtN1FtHOVhf9DRHdyaUqunyJOvFwSXe+beIFQrK+b DLpIo+r45RAV9Hwv1OBgXDNy38Wcghcy2l/0LXWLynK8edO8HfYpVNU9KtUGQEszdLHJ ufkZf0kSw75tt+DHfipecSayDasuWQg5bOJsBnzOr5qg8Q1yTYzx9JlqnqlYSZPMZWmG vLqRFSItUvKomjHA7Izbhmg4KyVXNa5o5lV9HVxmP65R/E9Gy7wZex/8YU2+PwOCup5U MbgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=xzjPAb8jWhL6++66gyWTNDyGqF9OTR1YL8W33M3wkHA=; b=D9kiky8ZEs+VE/RhgNKShpRU15b7GKzsaMvOSwQt6zKWxZRxACGLjzZxbFsT6Xbv0O Ffhqwe7LsdqMQ0DrOEl5A338Uql7zu04H5cL7xGJOrgIDlhLwFmzAMPsZF2f69K3GTry EhyVVMfJ+bBYj5krjCQ+nlrGj4257Hp/++HANkKv5Jqi0OEN1qW7K9c2VRSePyU4x6kf TvJ/NE7N0U+wvrXbmlWD3QzkQModElsCMqWRBMpzcykbn9g4jba6GF5b4fu2/z3OjdcZ +aUM30ISMMLf3ao7o8sfGbN0Kkf7z2X+ACs/FAt4T4+aUpPety0hRtPoh7BKQCFxXNHR Oqow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5328kMnQyeAbOLwFVI/pTBI4qX11ERIP8CUOfw4GEih5VwJuzD1O Rb9+CO3+fij59We0UV2nqVQxCUVE+Eg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxkFtX9/+P2cYcWZTaTH8b8gsqY1cfgXvffxNubZukIuvtfAMHWxBo+nXxH/Td70+yyAzZt3A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1ac6:b0:1e9:3a52:4c86 with SMTP id i6-20020a0560001ac600b001e93a524c86mr15185425wry.389.1645505711127; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (99-31-208-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [99.31.208.116]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h11sm34110371wrr.64.2022.02.21.20.55.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:55:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1889291F-938E-4880-B33C-A0272CE18353"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 20:55:07 -0800 Cc: Bob Hinden , admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <70488F54-D852-457C-9F77-6FC2A8868932@gmail.com> References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> <49BE4C0D-87F7-4B5B-8342-789E678F0238@gmail.com> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 04:55:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1889291F-938E-4880-B33C-A0272CE18353 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Jay, > On Feb 21, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 22/02/2022, at 12:21 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>=20 >> Jay, >>=20 >>> On Feb 21, 2022, at 12:17 PM, Jay Daley = wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think it would be good to distinguish between appointing = volunteers, vs. hiring employees/contractors. For example, the ISOC = board hires (selects, contracts, pays) a CEO, vs. the IAB appointing the = IRTF chair. >>>=20 >>> That is captured by the box style - thick lines for community = appointed bodies and double lines for contracted roles. >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t think that relates to my suggestion. I think you = should distinguish between hiring someone (ISOC CEO, IETF Exec Dir, = etc.) and for example, appointing a w.g. chair. They both currently = use dotted lines a text =E2=80=9Cappoint=E2=80=9D. >=20 > Yes I understood - the difference is captured by the border of the = subject of the appointment, where hired roles have the double line = border, as do all contracted/legal entities. However, I have changed = "appoints" to "employs" for clarity. Good, works for me. >=20 >>=20 >> A general comment, I wonder if this digram is trying to capture so = much information in different line styles, box styles, etc., that it is = becoming less useful (without a document that explains it). >=20 > Ultimately this is only a map, it=E2=80=99s the territory that it is = mapping that has the underlying complexity. >=20 > New version now up with all the changes people have asked for (I = think) including creating a flat structure by moving the NomCom. >=20 > = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png Good improvement. Bob >=20 > Jay >=20 >>=20 >> Bob >>=20 >=20 > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 --Apple-Mail=_1889291F-938E-4880-B33C-A0272CE18353 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmIUbKsACgkQrut0EXfn u6gEngf7BucdGAHUNgX4epUDoM0P18ShZpOJgdwsbLGcubf2GceospiCkRspGxyi SsZgr3tTfeEE0o6bAiJjYgSWHekXu88Ozon1yM4jHeHCD8MBgNWS2YU71dcc5xZU 6zdSWBXUQRDjHDaFK6Hki164SPAFLwcfzLMpqVKCTw9QSNOhIOhqSC9AedBgv+V9 ceZMuVmIXwlQjw+MFvp8GlBtwd/NCMkkmYYo/25qIrbnokF6J5dKpRJN1XHgak9Q +2n9+EsJ29CqNIqBwXJAK9NsSSYCD89k+N8QG83iYPUIM4SlHXxBV+7C+xPcDvPk +7mulC8/6zXcuJ/glEQZ6g9TdNnDxQ== =D/HR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1889291F-938E-4880-B33C-A0272CE18353-- From nobody Mon Feb 21 22:28:53 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com 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wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmIUgmIFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+pG 1w/8D2n8sGmWCe/caZ+w62mPb2KAtdM3LI8XmPvpH8E5Zfo8eEf7NTkZGH3ZPOOMqfFxZwhzH9c0 9WP8S/142er57saT2Ov06K2/MKlKs6QirCpuE8lte8dU7mbxisVPfLHMocHy1klQeB0NIw1tu14m skacb+8CnzuD0aPSJcdJtFJq3Ral+PvDvbXTrTln4Euc0DsibuT0AwurV8weED8KrqO7uJgvZckj 0PocUDOr/holksYW8bF4FfukiHrecgiGE8igESVS7xQRsaaRcFzrL7yILhPhfPu1aa+0ZUV2mwl0 EMjr1ldbzSVW4+0ni7kRXLMvVF9KB+ttcaLwK4egefe1lJ5Zii9JV+Q4kj5vjjcjjumvsD774qHI mmxQprMmRXXMl14OGTkbYt/l9U8bUI5xvMqMIdwXDIME5e9/tiDC6OuswmUSDIFD4vOCSKDQcXYG adnmYPR+mRDhWLy23Zk5jg2NlItFRzsizXselzAIyEpEFaUdnAv3sB7L8o6WaWhzH+kFzmdWw3NC a1CW7y/fMf0SL9PCs25MQDVg7Moy0iB9ibHesLmZR2/4mj5YGaEXT7Mw/G+2Wu9REEBB1sY28dA/ Z1XuCGxEPEGECUrzWpc6vYsY0aAgYDN8fNw1ZCUpShqcOeAVvl9aIEiqcSMPztpSrhkS2Jmm475J u7o= =P+gZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------Xkpjxx2BlR0ukRl0kZJ9rnvz-- From nobody Tue Feb 22 14:37:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: 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Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 22:37:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0F73216F-C310-4267-875C-81EBB360EAD7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 22/02/2022, at 7:27 PM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > I do think this effort is worthy and useful. That said... >=20 > On 22/02/2022 03:17, Jay Daley wrote: >> = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Structure_-_February_2022.png >=20 > One comment on the graphic, and one on the thread: >=20 > Graphic: I'd suggest s/structure/super-structure/ in the > title because... I understand the point but super-structure seems a bit cryptic. See = below for a different suggestions >=20 > On the thread: I don't think one can fit the concepts of an > IETF participant nor of the "volunteers" relationship in any > diagram like this, and those (IMO) are the really central > concepts that are important in understanding (what I think of > as) the important players and relationships. >=20 > It is a good thing to better understand how the various > designed components of superstructure relate, but that'd, > if taken alone, (which isn't I'm sure the intent at all), > give a misleading impression. >=20 > But, were there a useful graphical way to indicate that > all this hinges on participants who choose to volunteer to > do stuff, then that'd be a useful improvement to the image. Currently, the community is represented as an attribute of the boxes and = that is reflected in the key, where five of the six items have the word = community in them. This to me reflects the underlying principle that = the IETF is a community organisation and by default community = controlled. This could be made even clearer by adding community into = the title, such as "Community structures of the IETF and inter-related = organisations"? I looked at a number of alternatives for representing the community and = settled on the mechanism above for the following reasons: 1. A separate community box. That would definitely be misleading = because it would make it seem as if the community was a separate thing = that had connections into these bodies rather than these bodies being = drawn from and part of the community. It would also require a bunch of = arrows that would clutter the diagram even further. 2. A big box round everything except the contracted parts that said = Community. This remains a possibility but is quite hard to do without = including contracted roles, such as mine, and that would probably lose = the point about community control and participation. Perhaps this could be made clearer still by replacing the word community = here with "Volunteer participant" in the key and possibly the title? Jay >=20 > Cheers, > S. > >=20 >=20 -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_0F73216F-C310-4267-875C-81EBB360EAD7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEteUdwVZRcQwi2bcWICxpEHTRWFMFAmIVZYgACgkQICxpEHTR WFPo7A/+JsWXgwZtbnN93B5wFfmKatptflLtJo2yGIV/lq2cZX8eT/Dfuet6eBMd +VwG/AIABYxLoKPPth6wj7e1HINMLtpUA2DtPIG/9MKvpJskgJ2vlPopW6qYM9wi ug9eyIIZxwOJlHFIXbUYA7rOyYs8zE7OyqYjGDYlOZo6x0FRxi/FBXOfV8oKmgC7 h4vBSPvbiR6PrS+WLuvRBgTzT1vRhp0awILErjCQjshcXqStMMi6aWerhWWahEAv f8gT1I48fFpDHnBfieURQAEQIoQETUegSGqIqCGUFZYsaAmAWQWeNAh8WFFmAgrD Tm+u50RA3Q3DlRSDrXLH2qZUdRMFqeZsfDLrqjuF8tn29JIqrcEfsqdwJn2V+JH/ lu+/uOXah3DKCQwyA6QcjUTchicGDYdJLpYKSb2qPHy5nYzwbRMfxdd8gf4vYJ5O JAvvXDtv/s56qxpC89+zXKjXVnBdn1OAZR7Z3DcK1frHqM1p+tO+iomrGkEMb5lQ 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attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmIVevYFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+oV fg/+JkMQCPuo8A/UxFfWuaUT7pKGO1T32kvYMv5f/ETNzJedc/oh/KJ5MFveHcj/WwQ3lRMzSrWp 6vhkA7d4TDRKBorQf2rVl6Jse9lyKGHuXBiOchzWxAmbjk8pEREKqwSsAs5NEbgyioIHibIi6gS6 5ReCiVk/vvQUgNPSjJ8G38PFTBcPjlIISrYbREJEV9Eca1ZaQyMQPISIDwOnXKx8VHKqa0J1Xelr RYo6vxl2SEuw/3FgLIrHNBD6l/JlE71UOZiFrpIUajEZ/dZ1YL5bULwOHw1TnPAU9sn5VQrJzq53 92g7bq3BQ27jBDn+O2JuO0ppeuVDEqg+3+rcsd8jIEsZgqI2ak3z0jlzXxMKYX5OF2iiNNktenSv 05Tn9BY9/sQV9aClh2Y36k+d4NDEBUYBkW7DJ/OppG3mihxTO/H5Uc/hLvQCvh+bZF2EMLDDrt/t 26Jy/2fC0TI51W+MB7u4g2HaqY5+LzEXZU8LXP14FjA3ec+r/0YO1MTGInHMuq0CLBNngZQecvlk ND3hWMNijJ6bdYoI9sEXSaDkyoPGxENtAqU1eyw+5lMJnyKr15X7iKL+Ie7duTRjwrFBNccWcTZv 6kfCOEBikievOL9muvO9UxWkY7wHz4dxfmJoiaBiBtGW3s4QALyTBKHVzDq93kjgl65WRajXydPz FnM= =7OTq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------NTBzwTruyw884i98qnnxgJbL-- From nobody Tue Feb 22 16:43:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 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([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s15sm22617990pgn.30.2022.02.22.16.43.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:43:13 -0800 (PST) To: Stephen Farrell , Jay Daley Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <12F3A997-DF48-4AA1-B744-8D310D460397@ietf.org> <0F630F4E-7646-4885-B31D-A16805B776CA@gmail.com> <2FA08C30-2D8D-4F2A-9B40-A865654B54E0@ietf.org> <49BE4C0D-87F7-4B5B-8342-789E678F0238@gmail.com> <6473d6d2-0cac-35c7-3ff0-982989f29aec@cs.tcd.ie> <9e708916-1159-9be0-34be-ca8681c6cbb7@cs.tcd.ie> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <08eddc0a-ef27-def0-061b-72633c6c974d@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 13:43:10 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9e708916-1159-9be0-34be-ca8681c6cbb7@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Attempt to diagram the structure of the IETF X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 00:43:18 -0000 On 23-Feb-22 13:08, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 22/02/2022 22:36, Jay Daley wrote: >> >> Perhaps this could be made clearer still by replacing the word >> community here with "Volunteer participant" in the key and possibly >> the title? > Something like that could be good, yes. But I realise that > there's no way to make such a diagram perfect. This is a bit of a tangent, but for newcomers to the IETF, whether as participants or as contractors, the "volunteer" ethos, the "no voting" rule and the strong dependency on informal channels add up to a major source of confusion. I don't think that this diagram, which naturally focuses on well-defined roles and communication channels, can be expected to help with that confusion. Probably the Tao and other material aimed at newcomers would help a bit, but perhaps we need some text explicitly describing the volunteer ethos, and how community input ultimately determines not only technical outcomes, but actually *everything* on the diagram. Brian From nobody Thu Feb 24 15:00:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 863513A0A1A for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:00:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6IPGkMmxe43y for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A2D53A0A20 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id c23so4613937ioi.4 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:00:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mC0YOm0YvlsmwalldOpmnly9AqxcwI2rqO7+MANTMMY=; b=oSz0dugcnhRzV+a6qHvcX01gOH+KjmNX8Tz4ZS8QOe1wr2nQL3KeU/e/pHZV67HZLG pYggE++F7DmrRaNEsfzdbp2yX9F3ZBJjLTIbDyLSPU8EfvaYlrTntT72Fkrk0iFlopqE ruJylEytrlCSQBCwTpjOit+bOqfpITYp4PQSDIOh/Rpsbd2Aul10zTXZXnFUuMPNEwuW mVtu2BjOQzO8k7rY8Y3xx1ztuG6sBF1DCoBPUWa6otXoMheKl2ZKFAyb4E+gS7La2Cqa px8YDH0cWd9fQHZk41Dr3D5lbnVQbdMTcaxg7Zx4fWoNHqT5Nb8NYFCbPwTYoRRmZ8T0 es+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mC0YOm0YvlsmwalldOpmnly9AqxcwI2rqO7+MANTMMY=; b=ejOVGfT0tKVBLZVwF3fbWxH8sDnJ+eBAGP4rSF0Bj+CM27EkWfcKJ0PKWmEONZEz3e 0x+OHJ/lSRcqHIs7QixD0wgQmiIjidhL1NM+G8OWKz17RqgJ4hgN28HkONIob/aglhER 5Zp4aG8fGikiEEUqmsCCk3z2aIA8FBeSc3MbJMpPRGuwi32jg8d8xfeLyt01IUPihNJy aCusI/P2jdXRriAtfId2XRHkH4Dy8AvcVfaXLzHsFUOm+1RTXauXudR4B4V9l1O+kW85 DzauPjIsX9unmvpD22TQgvmsoSIMGbGvcD1dFGIx0o00IbpgZwyMbFfb7D4w8eDS0wVV kZ9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336RFt6FI0VapDMc2QfE7phbYLa5tKRLa3V8d3oKoncxS4KwPfG CNnkvQPcwZQqPyAbhCG3S61nce0TbG100PKHD6+00Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxRvvjYwJ806R6JSJE6k7oWTHRHDy/y1QsLaRbzrHw1B0xlg184uiRu+gvnMcokEHmYiQ1kGxZ7M9z0+X+Homk= X-Received: by 2002:a02:a398:0:b0:314:ad84:75fd with SMTP id y24-20020a02a398000000b00314ad8475fdmr3705944jak.20.1645743615371; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:00:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 14:59:39 -0800 Message-ID: To: IESG Cc: IETF Announcement List , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , irtf-announce@irtf.org, IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000096055905d8cb8bdc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 23:00:21 -0000 --00000000000096055905d8cb8bdc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This seems reasonable to me. However, I do have one logistical question. We are increasingly seeing some of this discussion on Github. Would that also be archived and if so how? -Ekr On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 2:25 PM The IESG wrote: > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to > making all materials related to our standards process and other > activities publicly available. > > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the first > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once the > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between authors > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when > applicable). > > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manager, > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the > conversation between authors and RFC editors. > > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list. > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. > > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be numb= er, > cluster number, sender, and date. > > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival, > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t envis= ion > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive > information needs to be shared. > > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text about > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcement, > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this > thread by 24 March 2022. > > Francesca Palombini for the IESG > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > --00000000000096055905d8cb8bdc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This seems reasonable to me. However, I do have one l= ogistical question. We are increasingly seeing some of this discussion on G= ithub. Would that also be archived and if so how?

<= div>-Ekr


On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 2:25 PM The IESG <= iesg@ietf.org> wrote:
The IETF prides itself on its= open process and transparent
communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to
making all materials related to our standards process and other
activities publicly available.

For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of
its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the first submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once the document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between authors and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of
people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when
applicable).

In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document
editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manager, RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read
AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of
documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the
conversation between authors and RFC editors.

Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations,
for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when
initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list. All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a
consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.

All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same
mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the
mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be number= ,
cluster number, sender, and date.

Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival, by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t envisio= n
that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive
information needs to be shared.

The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text about public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcement, the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set
anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this
thread by 24 March 2022.

Francesca Palombini for the IESG

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announ= ce
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([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r19-20020a17090aa09300b001bc5fb5886asm7144800pjp.5.2022.02.24.16.43.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Feb 2022 16:43:04 -0800 (PST) To: iesg@ietf.org Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 13:42:59 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:43:11 -0000 Good idea as far as the IETF process goes, but: > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, = Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far. The IE= SG can't take decisions that cover the other streams; the mechanisms for RFC= Editor policy that covers all streams are currently in Last Call and it would be strange (to say the least) to make this decision for all streams= now rather then when the new mechanisms are in place. That would in effec= t preempt and undercut the new mechanisms just before they start. I would probably support this proposal strongly if it was brought to the future RSWG. But I definitely object to preempting that discussion. Perhaps a fixed term experiment and a promise to bring the results of that experiment to the RSWG as a policy proposal would be the way to go? Regards Brian Carpenter On 25-Feb-22 11:24, The IESG wrote: > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to > making all materials related to our standards process and other > activities publicly available. >=20 > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the firs= t > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once th= e > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between authors= > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when > applicable). >=20 > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manager= , > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the > conversation between authors and RFC editors. >=20 > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list.= > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. >=20 > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be nu= mber, > cluster number, sender, and date. >=20 > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival,= > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t env= ision > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive > information needs to be shared. >=20 > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text abou= t > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcement= , > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this > thread by 24 March 2022. >=20 > Francesca Palombini for the IESG >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >=20 From nobody Thu Feb 24 17:28:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9443A0F16; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 17:28:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.318 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.318 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p5yfj7IJ-wYc; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 17:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from server217-1.web-hosting.com (server217-1.web-hosting.com [198.54.114.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D724E3A0F0C; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 17:28:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=qZuO7A78TvJG7vNqGZC7qlyuGH0ka501YMw+9yIPHwE=; b=Z8QS2s26g82HmtLOBXnZsWoCFy o20O8B1/7Ss9CgWpm8ZRmz5T8tBCzEi6/9jgn4t8iQV4bmsL19UiIyp2tYbpbAe4rf2JfHb2E8L9m tFHr4R0wtSOJ5XZnD7RyJFnVi6RNBryLtRXai1TnBsNTOEbWMGM/VqU7a5ujLQtZvkrThAFSoPn7M +8lp5IaH/xhGEtXgUNP/2I77NUZlQ5RvI8y66pZGENjk3gBDzgUvfPbDybSNjmjXsNUeh+h9xCwAG z4b0E2PdId+kFNJPWt5V4TCGJPR3fSNyyEkv3Iyw5IXSTNjjWUNSCeHEyhJsElmwFpU30DR9WcetH vK0VazxQ==; Received: from cpe-172-114-237-88.socal.res.rr.com ([172.114.237.88]:54279 helo=smtpclient.apple) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nNPOt-001Vno-U5; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 20:28:08 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_71AA3446-F1B4-4C85-A54A-64E8C2A721F3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: "touch@strayalpha.com" In-Reply-To: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 17:27:56 -0800 Cc: IETF Announcement List , wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, irtf-announce@irtf.org, ietf@ietf.org Message-Id: <0B2DB0C7-D705-400C-86F8-F1943A40530B@strayalpha.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> To: The IESG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 01:28:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_71AA3446-F1B4-4C85-A54A-64E8C2A721F3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, all, Overall, this seems reasonable, HOWEVER, I would like to ensure that = this isn=E2=80=99t the only way authors know about it. I.e., *each* AUTH48 message should come with a prominent notice that the = exchange is being archived and instructions to opt-out. Joe =E2=80=94 Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Feb 24, 2022, at 2:24 PM, The IESG wrote: >=20 > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent=20 > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to=20= > making all materials related to our standards process and other=20 > activities publicly available.=20 >=20 > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of=20= > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the = first=20 > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once = the=20 > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between = authors=20 > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of=20= > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when=20= > applicable).=20 >=20 > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document=20= > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project = Manager,=20 > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read=20= > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of=20 > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the=20 > conversation between authors and RFC editors. >=20 > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations,=20= > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when=20 > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing = list.=20 > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a=20 > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.=20 >=20 > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same=20= > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the=20 > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be = number,=20 > cluster number, sender, and date. >=20 > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from = archival,=20 > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t = envision=20 > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive=20= > information needs to be shared. >=20 > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text = about=20 > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this = announcement,=20 > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set=20= > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this=20= > thread by 24 March 2022. >=20 > Francesca Palombini for the IESG >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --Apple-Mail=_71AA3446-F1B4-4C85-A54A-64E8C2A721F3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi, = all,

Overall, this = seems reasonable, HOWEVER, I would like to ensure that this isn=E2=80=99t = the only way authors know about it.

I.e., *each* AUTH48 message should come = with a prominent notice that the exchange is being archived and = instructions to opt-out.

Joe

=E2=80=94
Dr. Joe Touch, = temporal epistemologist
www.strayalpha.com

On Feb 24, 2022, at 2:24 PM, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> = wrote:

The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent =
communication, with one of our core principles being our = commitment to
making all materials related to our = standards process and other
activities publicly = available.

For a document undergoing = publication within the IETF Stream, most of
its history = can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the first
submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. = However, once the
document enters the RFC Editor queue, = the communication between authors
and RFC Production = Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of
people: = RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when
applicable).

In order to = increase transparency during the final stages of document
editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series = Project Manager,
RPC, and Tools team are considering = allowing anyone to search and read
AUTH48 conversations = about specific documents (or clusters of
documents). It = is not a goal to actively involve more people in the
conversation between authors and RFC editors.
Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 = conversations,
for archival purposes only, i.e., = read-only. The RFC editors, when
initiating the = conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list.
All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and = as a
consequence will be archived in the mailing list = archive.

All AUTH48 discussions of all = documents will be archived on the same
mailing list. = Searches and filtering will be available based on the
mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, = RFC-to-be number,
cluster number, sender, and date.

Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able = to opt out from archival,
by removing the mailing list = from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t envision
that this = will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive
information needs to be shared.

The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include = text about
public archival, to make sure authors are = aware. With this announcement,
the IESG wants to inform = the community and read feedback before we set
anything = up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this
thread by = 24 March 2022.

Francesca Palombini for the = IESG

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

= --Apple-Mail=_71AA3446-F1B4-4C85-A54A-64E8C2A721F3-- From nobody Thu Feb 24 17:44:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E8E3A0FC1; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 17:44:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VOHvcFtBJHtE; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 17:44:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67F343A0FB8; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 17:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K4Xd56H3yzDCbJ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 02:44:25 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 02:44:25 +0100 Cc: iesg@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 01:44:35 -0000 On 25. Feb 2022, at 01:42, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 >> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 = conversations,=20 >=20 > Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far. We already discussed this in the IRSG and would like to join. My personal take: We have enough ossification of RFC-related matters; I = don=E2=80=99t think we need to push this one up to 2026. The RSWG can tweak this when they get to power. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Feb 24 18:08:06 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24F13A1043; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:07:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3REJQ4NcBmr; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F1323A1038; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id n15so1270902plf.4; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:07:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oh+HvGzIJRp+IejD7dFK4DOZJ7QoJNPikAzBfp03nPQ=; b=lQukUEB4x9YK2tDgW+0GjQhukOpnZF0w3lEH2N5hME3NwdtebIUIyeEbDGb4EQL9l5 vfqPd/na2HGyMGJhp0lfbmwfZSxErbwlgnoQfS/uzCLihDAyu2DvywQYuKkmFfozSzB2 g/6RvxDkGAi+T1y2xkUhn8oGmY4QOcb5QlPM4uj2PGbZsHuDeARfKceyxYmCdghm176B 38O18lbPpl/x1Q0lYsZvlwk565arVPcRnWViQt2OZkD0/3U3aRVHHB8fRi85RgVtt9KZ BCqWDHzc5Apv0GsyEnl6xo0joTzLskfMtBozf36LSVuVC2GKbXrWRnn9NWcowLP5CifT IdBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=oh+HvGzIJRp+IejD7dFK4DOZJ7QoJNPikAzBfp03nPQ=; b=EFmk6e2fqEGQyo4jpbymUyLuPBelZtowgkAdKlwQpi718rLqPrP2bq+sMmGPqDLeJR zXIIcPWVu1SrD/LqwZytvVExlaX0USNGy4QOZVC2jlCCPxyP3X+iM8ED0u89XXN28XKZ b1gNMA/U3TrH8t5tJ/o8G3bkpEuXZO8DUf9Isdcww0iMYv2hjeONR70JqPz1qQzIP2jd V7kgPWX/YxEK9ZBgqo4e+j4n3Uv1DcJ9SLGhygmvl+w6jl+KelIJjCwwQmu9NTBpTsII Kr3cc9FOhW1oKaFzZvUKs5dGroOCK0IUg7XsJIZJhVHuP2ZCJ+SouUXr7cy0ch2Xivrr vL+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5333aNbejXtqWsr6mArJQil/206TkX+otlO2CgVAwmCwPB0B68MB lGA29n5N1dg0HKXhr8qMrtALyfP9uWtNng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVzd8mWWi9wwCO/yLUFaEjcgAwQpWZaCnCJ9bx4DEnkR/61OI4kqGYISwgvHkO6nztXe4cZA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1052:b0:1bc:40a0:b8a8 with SMTP id gq18-20020a17090b105200b001bc40a0b8a8mr984958pjb.24.1645754825271; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ob12-20020a17090b390c00b001bc50c526absm556351pjb.39.2022.02.24.18.07.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:07:04 -0800 (PST) To: Carsten Bormann Cc: iesg@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <941a9ac4-7649-c492-f149-1ae7964b1ae6@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:06:59 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 02:07:08 -0000 On 25-Feb-22 14:44, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 25. Feb 2022, at 01:42, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >>> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations= , >> >> Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far. >=20 > We already discussed this in the IRSG and would like to join. >=20 > My personal take: We have enough ossification of RFC-related matters; I=20 don=E2=80=99t think we need to push this one up to 2026. > The RSWG can tweak this when they get to power. No, that assumes a fait accompli and that is very much against the spirit=20 of community-approved RFC policy which is what people have been demanding=20 for several years. Running an experiment now is fine, declaring a policy = isn't. I would expect the RSWG/RSAB to be operational a month or two from now; t= he last calls expire on March 7. Brian From nobody Thu Feb 24 18:13:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D692E3A105B for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:12:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HemiL5hss01Q for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0B7C3A105C for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id y5so3206635ill.13 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:12:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C2ZM893xAeDZgqOQP3ZJImVnqO+LS9NOLYxqOpMHt9U=; b=JKq849bcgDP7VtGaKdt/GhWkBqz47CI/fLGwag5D2Wujb8S8B0cbZJssHo7ooPyhWT JE05BcR2Qg70sa9O5/ndQZGyBlbwmRBfaFmvDwgXd96LaXOF4XTHTpW6p9EmGJFkMEWF 8z7mHRZ5yMROCzK3sfi5ILkhq8BBZf5XyBv+M1EZknUUirYnlh/YL8wS+EKXr3nmRMHu rzwdcG7a0zRepzP3iti9wj1oJehfCqpPcETbHnzy0QvBO1fAyFWDrvHQNfpqQLLnUsxf LRyyEDYlA2e5swbW8fwwt5TbkWkxFepvkAql1W/g+R63WSfmwveRMikQOHqmCE0F2oFg +3OA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=C2ZM893xAeDZgqOQP3ZJImVnqO+LS9NOLYxqOpMHt9U=; b=wq+RwDAvuSg9ogszQ4ddPZDhn7WRfSEDGOf+k7CWKuNgdw0s3Si+LEuaTEn3Y+sbiD OCv64yS0xqQvvCcGgZXViaWmQJ6GYTJQSKjzKOJsarvLjRLgg0O0WlGWASObAIauzFb5 HZjoJbpb3zIh95qa0FZ0PKOuAGsa4mMYjomQv6G6fC6OYsm1Novqk9Soj2uooZHksmO+ W4StzIL0mmPk8qf6F5CkuUQVvFNX2ktW9OncHv0UOsjQcJW6CE77VXu9aiwE830/l5fK 5bI32LjaGxc0TksAltDOkH5DiCweQx+NyGyuGxXXUBkUgcm+39ECBOZ9A8Svgw06P5b2 Ho7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531nHkEXcibmlGsJMR1+Jn5iDPDodGgNjnTh5a0+OD8PAi8Rhsm5 LwLMM1jGCr0bsDl+Ybv2h0VJi5015R0MVwgPpzLFjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzAlAYVBlsPtWTjI7riTbA1BL8l6vS1oNOz8HFJ/1kRiIA1v68mkUBN6uBhjpuIET9eqqwircrIlgdXzIZJ6nw= X-Received: by 2002:a92:b05:0:b0:2b7:ee19:ee15 with SMTP id b5-20020a920b05000000b002b7ee19ee15mr4580967ilf.10.1645755173062; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:12:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <941a9ac4-7649-c492-f149-1ae7964b1ae6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <941a9ac4-7649-c492-f149-1ae7964b1ae6@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:12:17 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Carsten Bormann , IESG , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007a616b05d8ce3c2d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 02:12:59 -0000 --0000000000007a616b05d8ce3c2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 6:07 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 25-Feb-22 14:44, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > On 25. Feb 2022, at 01:42, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations= , > >> > >> Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far. > > > > We already discussed this in the IRSG and would like to join. > > > > My personal take: We have enough ossification of RFC-related matters; I > don=E2=80=99t think we need to push this one up to 2026. > > The RSWG can tweak this when they get to power. > > No, that assumes a fait accompli and that is very much against the spirit > of community-approved RFC policy which is what people have been demanding > for several years. Running an experiment now is fine, declaring a policy > isn't. > > I would expect the RSWG/RSAB to be operational a month or two from now; > the last calls expire on March 7. > I concur with Brian and I appreciate him catching this. -Ekr > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > --0000000000007a616b05d8ce3c2d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 6:07 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 25-Feb-22 14:44, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 25. Feb 2022, at 01:42, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com= > wrote:
>>
>>> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conver= sations,
>>
>> Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far.=
>
> We already discussed this in the IRSG and would like to join.
>
> My personal take: We have enough ossification of RFC-related matters; = I
don=E2=80=99t think we need to push this one up to 2026.
> The RSWG can tweak this when they get to power.

No, that assumes a fait accompli and that is very much against the spirit <= br> of community-approved RFC policy which is what people have been demanding <= br> for several years. Running an experiment now is fine, declaring a policy is= n't.

I would expect the RSWG/RSAB to be operational a month or two from now; the= last calls expire on March 7.

I concur= with Brian and I appreciate him catching this.

-Ekr
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-intere= st@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/= rfc-interest
--0000000000007a616b05d8ce3c2d-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 00:34:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74E53A103E; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:33:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfF0AxQk-kfd; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E56E3A0DA0; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:33:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=v508/XFLeyVoyCyoIOYTaClujQcJbbMP7z+NHDk/lEE=; b=yEGP2yE1IbE2vWSqSzaLeV6MCq mwGwGhlz9jRfLmMMRuM14EuJoxcac73gJIQz/XqTLdZBpZgkc5dPVS3AOI770gOPi8TyuQPf0Dbsm CzDCjEzLOi/5JTIQT9y7OBkhzWK1wsUjZQ+GKzKev3Q57a9C6lW6/Mn25OS8AtrBoVDhLYVOn4r9t YcgxdYFx+xec9WeHaP3YDWP527/GTiq39/cdlfPPQUwI8HC6awKcOkt/PwpUBwcdtWT7gdG91tJ1e bJ7ia8U+Z/X3x5oSqVybpc+HjKgG7SpnDIfEXHBFRj57jOuRchuUCinldpTh16kuDQGPII3rUF14d rnvj2gVw==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=41010 helo=[192.168.0.67]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1nNW2r-0003Nc-Pw; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:33:50 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:33:29 +0000 Cc: The IESG , wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:34:00 -0000 > On 25 Feb 2022, at 00:42, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Good idea as far as the IETF process goes, but: >=20 >> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 = conversations,=20 >=20 > Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far. The = IESG > can't take decisions that cover the other streams; The IRSG discussed this for the IRTF stream, and agreed to join with the = proposal. The IESG has been very open in their communication and discussion with = the other streams about this. Colin Perkins IRTF Chair= From nobody Fri Feb 25 00:38:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894533A108F; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:38:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lNwICYleC0Zy; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05C953A1039; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:38:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 21P8cGIf029310; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:38:16 GMT Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B8C46050; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:38:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA9E34604C; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:38:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:38:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([148.252.129.67]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 21P8cDjb023387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:38:14 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Colin Perkins'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: "'The IESG'" , , , , References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:38:14 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <036301d82a23$0897aed0$19c70c70$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIcHXnEn+YLFcMUWzMfM3DBfHiTXwD8p5LKAjga0iOsAmRfUA== Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 148.252.129.67 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-8.6.0.1018-26736.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--7.972-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--7.972-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-8.6.1018-26736.006 X-TMASE-Result: 10--7.972400-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: +c13yJDs903xIbpQ8BhdbPHkpkyUphL99oDlvpGLeE00tugJQ9WdwzTI xI7tqkhQYSAk8YA2mRgUEkbllh8Em9WKNmKtnvU1s/Hes76OTZApA2ExuipmWnBarPjXwv+Xo8W MkQWv6iV95l0nVeyiuPvaZcqB7SGX0C1sQRfQzEHEQdG7H66TyKsQd9qPXhnJ/4rWvpj9UchSyo W67Uh3JXmO5/wCxZp/OeESi33l14qVraZiv2XrQJPVg4VTcv5z X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:38:28 -0000 > From: rfc-interest On Behalf Of Colin Perkins > Sent: 25 February 2022 08:33 > >> On 25 Feb 2022, at 00:42, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> Good idea as far as the IETF process goes, but: >> >>> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, >> >> Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far. The IESG >> can't take decisions that cover the other streams; > > The IRSG discussed this for the IRTF stream, and agreed to join with the proposal. > > The IESG has been very open in their communication and discussion with the other streams about this. Indeed. I can confirm that the ISE was consulted about whether to apply this to the Independent Stream, and I thought it a useful measure. Eliot, as the new ISE, can confirm whether he wants to continue with that or not. Cheers, Adrian From nobody Fri Feb 25 00:52:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57BEC3A111C; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:51:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ULnPJ6B20aDu; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 416363A10E8; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id f14so5756964ioz.1; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:51:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=syYsLROCgExFshgoga8uqg0cfse9QBlwTvP2r81cdw0=; b=PltJV1cGNbZT1iY+Wp6f2FYX8Uo+uD7J/12qxNQOLwsDPQypW85tKXxpAeWaTBxi9I jnyj9Uu+1RvOhd16oweckWyX53uh6+i9JUzwUETANlHjXCxIzBcukul/bJnPl6Sg2pdu Fjzi4JYvxZnA+JPRx3TZJ9M6AcrnFwOJM9A9j/K3Md6K07B56MD7k7nkbEBneAdSxPSL F1n94Qu3evq8wVqicaqg7AdbWf+pVhXnhOdBgqnMdBd9elNx+aRYRdpxb9lYY9c9JJJs Tq/6us3ctcbk963HXHhrPy4DUU6T5MnB1mLBd1Gezi+g2Y+oSSrpkx11oHBVW8ASbKaU RaOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=syYsLROCgExFshgoga8uqg0cfse9QBlwTvP2r81cdw0=; b=Bc8vhm19FCC9BR1/IpJYs5a9yR3afF+253FdQOifdGjuTYHLOG/trIIW+aCn5+Ct1/ X7Wf50Rfa2AhitstJFX+SN8VpB0Cvb7St+1xDN/IjNPq/L4wSKi/Fsl2Ox8ZhOEusmJM 0gy4ttFcC1ymYh5Q+/WZy5745zMO9d46Nt3jg38qDmEHT/GJ30xSV2b4w8xqATuC+9p8 Jl9imjQ1Txl/ywr0kOxld2SjFJybqYjp1z8ITUye+fljyg3SU4iS9LVvhgmIDn5q54GZ q1ut4a+PK/UKQOSSssSxfGyrj3i/8+3b1jg5fD2R0kUu/IWjSJ4fbhEEVMQVl1I4UdW0 HoXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532isYI1kuVguOESdhqnmwFzNyM4eslMUq3nK5z7I0X89dIcvQYF Wamu7U72ZpHFa3QA1MZFSYCtYGBs0uhS/xeXxbGfkya1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxqvQgsF5PwSEnazvgMgzt97pDFBpvZCNunrP6ngHqllWaiUNMYvWFxLFt2iXCpG2Yjfum0FqzFvnY0SROofxU= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c551:0:b0:314:ac09:428d with SMTP id g17-20020a02c551000000b00314ac09428dmr5270785jaj.0.1645779085902; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 00:51:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:50:59 +0000 Message-ID: To: IESG Cc: IETF Announcement List , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , irtf-announce@irtf.org, IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:51:31 -0000 Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That keeps the information related to a single document in a common place, which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is publicly archived, that approach would require any interested individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if there were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussions and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs. regards, Ted Hardie *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you a step in which to process them so as to elide specific information that you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount of cruft. On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: > > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to > making all materials related to our standards process and other > activities publicly available. > > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the first > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once the > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between authors > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when > applicable). > > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manager, > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the > conversation between authors and RFC editors. > > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list. > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. > > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be numb= er, > cluster number, sender, and date. > > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival, > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t envis= ion > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive > information needs to be shared. > > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text about > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcement, > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this > thread by 24 March 2022. > > Francesca Palombini for the IESG > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Fri Feb 25 02:15:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929133A12DC; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 02:15:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.28 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.28 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DC_PNG_UNO_LARGO=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.618, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yFsct0EQgFkg; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 02:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF5773A12DD; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 02:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K4lyQ4pH3zDCcV; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 11:15:10 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DB779316-9FAF-4F45-8117-D3B5222A8E92" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 11:15:10 +0100 Cc: IESG , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , irtf-announce@irtf.org, IETF Announcement List X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 667476910.072263-5aec8d3ea97de3767415605001a599a4 Message-Id: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:15:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DB779316-9FAF-4F45-8117-D3B5222A8E92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 2022-02-25, at 09:50, Ted Hardie wrote: >=20 > references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in > advance of actual publication Got the below chat message right after 9175 was published. So these links already leak to google=E2=80=A6 (No idea what or whether to do about this.) (Of course, many IETFers rsync the RFC editor, so they have local copies = anyway.) > cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions Of course, authors can use the protected nature of the AUTH48 exchanges = to nudge the draft a little away from what the WG wanted. The chairs = and ADs are supposed to watch this, but they may not be aware of = specific strong positions of (or deals made with) individuals on the WG = list. So CCing WGs would help keeping authors honest a bit more=E2=80=A6 It also would draw in loud dissenters from the WG who will then create = unceasing discussion threads, trying to win by attrition. And WG lists are often indexed by search engines, so that might = contribute to the above noted search engine effect. Re trying to keep the RFC-to-be (draft RFC) secret: It is less useful to follow the AUTH48 discussions when you can=E2=80=99t = access the draft RFC. (It is difficult enough to keep track of what changed in a new draft = RFC; I=E2=80=99m actually rsyncing with timestamped backups to be able = to follow the discussions. These should be on a git repo...) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten --Apple-Mail=_DB779316-9FAF-4F45-8117-D3B5222A8E92 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_28979AB7-CCCD-49D4-88EC-10A2A02A47AC" --Apple-Mail=_28979AB7-CCCD-49D4-88EC-10A2A02A47AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On 2022-02-25, at 09:50, Ted Hardie = <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

references to the RFC number may = otherwise appear in
advance of actual publication

Got the below = chat message right after 9175 was published.
So = these links already leak to google=E2=80=A6
(No = idea what or whether to do about this.)

(Of course, many IETFers rsync the RFC = editor, so they have local copies anyway.)

cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 = discussions

Of course, = authors can use the protected nature of the AUTH48 exchanges to nudge = the draft a little away from what the WG wanted.  The chairs and = ADs are supposed to watch this, but they may not be aware of specific = strong positions of (or deals made with) individuals on the WG list. =  So CCing WGs would help keeping authors honest a bit = more=E2=80=A6
It also would draw in loud dissenters = from the WG who will then create unceasing discussion threads, trying to = win by attrition.

And WG lists are often indexed by search engines, so that = might contribute to the above noted search engine effect.

Re trying to keep the = RFC-to-be (draft RFC) secret:
It is less useful to = follow the AUTH48 discussions when you can=E2=80=99t access the draft = RFC.
(It is difficult enough to keep track of what = changed in a new draft RFC; I=E2=80=99m actually rsyncing with = timestamped backups to be able to follow the discussions.  These = should be on a git repo...)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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(8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 21PDJ3iC285403 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:19:03 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1645795146; bh=9JGv6wFMrb9cisHpaYpS1V7lH3ig0bg2GAXLnceIWtU=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=iR3dX0zM7IrUydjDhp8DABU8CXDaPYIWLvGvPRWSO1EmZ9HiwDy5wIwy6/s7nRVLM cigUi+xb78jSBGz2GU6UVhDERqa4xD340MIapQQ4PbBjht2/PcSGzYDr7zrYCZT5o2 xgRiCRhfLUaIrPCN1iiKQdox7TXRvq4ELrCgExFY= Message-ID: <12b11ad6-6e65-7824-de5b-6b57797260ab@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:19:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, "'Colin Perkins'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <036301d82a23$0897aed0$19c70c70$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <036301d82a23$0897aed0$19c70c70$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ZbyLYpR7xZpeG2NUedaiGMll" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 13:19:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------ZbyLYpR7xZpeG2NUedaiGMll Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------RSEi9eSM8Zurigu7JAzNV7fP"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, 'Colin Perkins' , 'Brian E 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmIY10YFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejO8 4wf/YiP+e8kVSBhVn14rhXfoWAL7PepO5LWLUInWoVSHvSwbLDZRtJE5r9tIrN4QHMXd3UsUNAke lLXuLTnV3N1Icxo0dg07hYeJTYCp9+ss0pdrfqvGUQRaeDzjkbc9NauBvghx0FcRUHZXRwMsnOus 6aX1FQi9cF7lrfQGUoNiAJE6NX1Cic2io4JA2vM0ELXGKLozXjq1j2+ZlINmA+KZh5XDwuATd5Uz IeyK3DjHV47Tybv6nXVnTxMaYASjwIVtUngORx+foXJr85fM+i9FkUjME+OvvgeLV0tbeg99GQaO vFUXCQedAGm5hyTOqmkLoy2oVfNuONTMrULpWD1ylA== =iYdu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------ZbyLYpR7xZpeG2NUedaiGMll-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 06:06:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA833A116E; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:06:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J_oB_I-jBUMi; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D05163A1162; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66814391C6; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id VEpVHD-ApiGd; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:15:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D19439136; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:15:11 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1645798511; bh=fZmG9OKpFfWMTVqvHt2tJC566kqEL14eloR3KEZi8Vk=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=rIMNqDiI8re91cS3/YQCQNQ9r+/L2/WUcC9ziDTaORXVM6eOq+8D/+I1tUuSnp/Lb IfJ58cee2Da/56t1pMlrNHEn0QFDVc9DZzgc3ul4mFc+KrZsYo7rbzvqJosNpDeVy8 C4ZdBSQpebGPf+r4ABhXCV8PYZsJohjeD3F5YL9ts9L5SlUkDj1CjpYvsQz7Nw5WqJ 3EkmhAbNKBc3UrNfjmLNuBZJX5DdtgGbzdAM4hbZ4M/w1dqJ05Lg8Ew9eBG0G+Iisf IQX1/ajpw2xyycuV7TASkr0PQezPU5lk4ZumcE5lZJlDIVYvhTev4HDGEIjsYRaHZe ibrpkn5L9ykFA== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF80B4E7; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:06:29 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Ted Hardie , IESG , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF In-Reply-To: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:06:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {trimmed the -announce out. Not sure what list this discussion should occur= on} Ted Hardie wrote: > Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I believ= e, > however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: cc'ing t= he > working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That keeps the > information related to a single document in a common place, which mak= es > it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it would be if = it > were in a dedicated list. This works for me. AD sponsored documents do not necessarily have lists, but I don't think the two solutions are mutually exclusive. > You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working > groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those > lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by > channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address > which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list memb= er > from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your propos= ed > implementation doesn't stop that either. I also have the concern that the RFC-editor could get confused about commen= ts, or that the thread could wind up re-litigating something that already reached rough consensus. I think that this is the experiement worth doing though. With this send-only address on the list, we still have the problem of autho= rs replying, don't we? They write to the ML, and then people argue with them. (And the authors, probably on the list, get yet another copy of the email. = Oh well.) I know that the RFC-editor has been using lists cXXXX when dealing with clusters. I thought that this was a good thing, and maybe that could help solve the technical challenges. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iPMEAQEKAB0WIQSk7ZHEG9TCGBNASfm/sjw/rPYc8wUCYhjiZQAKCRC/sjw/rPYc 8xsVBgCA8PVK+PSdiA4iA5gUAYFf+OAeYrUqGxG1Wrv0n4908ojiDtZSciT2HFVm at75x415iDHuwMlzEhRL79idVG82wgeHmmzGmuMYM/ozL2F+rIAmvE3mYcRqGhYI QOc/JFusFkypyn2+T3XACBs4rZI/coZWhPdPtX4b48DoQz/WVPgd8cMXFYGRNEBa 3oFOMYjjaGvtr+/qncrgxVsvNZVTPM5y7okf9HCGgkiiPaaTbTbmgfMhu10kEu9u bhfKiXU= =fbKa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 06:10:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB783A119B; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:10:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G0b1HwUMQo1W; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7FC93A117E; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0288867.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0288867.ppops.net-00191d01. 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Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:19:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:18:37 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ted Hardie Cc: IESG , IETF Announcement List , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , irtf-announce@irtf.org, IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000016cfb105d8d86275" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:19:20 -0000 --00000000000016cfb105d8d86275 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the WG list would be a mistake. In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about small details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I am on. I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. -Ekr On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie wrote: > Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I > believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: > cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That > keeps the information related to a single document in a common place, > which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it > would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is > publicly archived, that approach would require any interested > individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if there > were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussions > and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. > > You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working > groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those > lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by > channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address > which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list > member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your > proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. > > If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored > document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. > > Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow > later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily > coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs. > > regards, > > Ted Hardie > > *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you a > step in which to process them so as to elide specific information that > you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to > the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may > still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived > list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in > advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair > amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount > of cruft. > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: > > > > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent > > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to > > making all materials related to our standards process and other > > activities publicly available. > > > > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of > > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the firs= t > > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once th= e > > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between authors > > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of > > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when > > applicable). > > > > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document > > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manager= , > > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read > > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of > > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the > > conversation between authors and RFC editors. > > > > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, > > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when > > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list. > > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a > > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. > > > > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same > > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the > > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be nu= mber, > > cluster number, sender, and date. > > > > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival, > > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t env= ision > > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive > > information needs to be shared. > > > > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text abou= t > > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcement= , > > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set > > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this > > thread by 24 March 2022. > > > > Francesca Palombini for the IESG > > > > _______________________________________________ > > IETF-Announce mailing list > > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > --00000000000016cfb105d8d86275 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While I think transparency is good, I think sending t= hem through the WG list would be a mistake.

In man= y cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about small details = that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I am on.

I don't object to a separate list that WG members = could subscribe to.

-Ekr

<= /div>
O= n Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for considering the transparency questio= n seriously.=C2=A0 I
believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation:
cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions.=C2=A0 Th= at
keeps the information related to a single document in a common place,
which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it
would be if it were in a dedicated list.=C2=A0 While your proposal is
publicly archived, that approach would require any interested
individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if there
were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussions
and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions.

You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working
groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those
lists are not read only.=C2=A0 You can avoid them doing so directly by
channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address
which does not receive mail.*=C2=A0 That would not stop a mailing list
member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your
proposed implementation doesn't stop that either.

If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored
document might not), then the mail could go to the area list.

Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow
later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily
coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs.

regards,

Ted Hardie

*Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you a
step in which to process them so as to elide specific information that
you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to
the RFCs-to-be.=C2=A0 If you do not choose this implementation, you may
still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived
list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in
advance of actual publication.=C2=A0 Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount
of cruft.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent
> communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to=
> making all materials related to our standards process and other
> activities publicly available.
>
> For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of<= br> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the fir= st
> submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once t= he
> document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between author= s
> and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when<= br> > applicable).
>
> In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document<= br> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manage= r,
> RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read=
> AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of
> documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the > conversation between authors and RFC editors.
>
> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations,=
> for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when
> initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list= .
> All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a
> consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.
>
> All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be n= umber,
> cluster number, sender, and date.
>
> Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival= ,
> by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t en= vision
> that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive<= br> > information needs to be shared.
>
> The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text abo= ut
> public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcemen= t,
> the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set=
> anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this
> thread by 24 March 2022.
>
> Francesca Palombini for the IESG
>
> _______________________________________________
> IETF-Announce mailing list
> IETF-Annou= nce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-a= nnounce
_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-intere= st@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/= rfc-interest
--00000000000016cfb105d8d86275-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 06:36:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F0F3A0801; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:36:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jRet34l6kdNS; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:36:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 898753A07FE; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:36:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id d19so6674924ioc.8; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:36:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DjnivndIkr+YueglwJD1caTC4GmYmh4eh7QNz45Y/N8=; b=OpSVs6T7dGn9WiCA8JXGIG5gini/JnBxvvrf1AHK2sST/SIhqtR3H1C1r6Snx4fzGM XR0EuWAAJZXSqrwnO+ujxCfDDEi0fGqGGFJJ6BbUf+6a5rG8WcntlAFNr9j0j2NE8LV8 c0iMkTYNgyciJkVi8PCxKxzvA2lskcsDbM42UChJPdAf/jlmJoIZYqS8FtNqkLkDPGUh WkTNY4ILGdu0iVv4ot7DcVP4q39gOGgwMNTibV4vKKNx0u2IedSUoKrjwvfF5kOA9zO1 rnHwLCuuaaELGWmseuD/5ZXmBsSPmBNLYelWsOE2c11+Enl0OySdmSt84HdGr5EqOY+3 o8hQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DjnivndIkr+YueglwJD1caTC4GmYmh4eh7QNz45Y/N8=; b=RkM5F/ilqvC0suOSebEn7cXNOJCANosnkeGA/KouLx+I9WTwqEzLR9LoXfIyropEmN lxnrE3hlDaUxS27bB75FOpkz7jLtDIY0+skk/eeLYgcJyhPNS9k9NVW6xARmOvJN2g4n rtMU5YiI7wrkyBRZk5GnqvPGWI7CkOl6pzXfYTuefdOYLJ8WPIv5xQT3zqD0JJAGF4M5 Otv3kz4rnlv9c+qx/Psc96R8jypdfMzgozaemnggcxYFSlLJZAcsQpPhgUjdMxt1hGWz 3vo3lRq5I0QHzaxsCCPYpaqfXDP09PEMa1cc81golB3lzLXpIGNsrbScr50RuLjDBZ7q CiGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531dFreUX2qogMumDb3yGfARnA+t/Ua5z7lEIP2hf0nyEUAmHdXI y6HKLECFZ3DhpotB6oqC5Ejiry3kzT8wJxXbyGp81wyJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5+AK2geB8l7QaLwR+bbmUsEUVNObGumFEdgY8/2mZfHOSlqJhWBC3YofrDMk64+Vl/KL81Phd30qChptaag8= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:9b06:0:b0:641:808b:4240 with SMTP id j6-20020a5e9b06000000b00641808b4240mr5642689iok.209.1645799806812; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 06:36:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:36:34 +0000 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Ted Hardie , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , irtf-announce@irtf.org, IETF Announcement List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000db45d305d8d8a086" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:36:52 -0000 --000000000000db45d305d8d8a086 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the WG > list would be a mistake. > > In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about small > details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I am > on. > > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. > +1. Before becoming a chair, all I encountered was a black hole. Now as a chair I see the interactions and it is quite insightful, while at the same time sometimes being none of my business (in a responsibility sense). In the QUIC WG, most of our business is done on GitHub. The mailing list remains fairly quiet and the signal to noise ratio is good. Reflecting a full auth 48 discourse onto the QUIC list would be a negative in my opinion. A single email to notify people about the fact that auth48 has started, and where to go and subscribe, would be good though. Cheers Lucas --000000000000db45d305d8d8a086 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla= <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Whil= e I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the WG list wo= uld be a mistake.

In many cases there is a tremend= ous amount of back and forth about small details that I would prefer not to= be bothered with for every WG list I am on.

I don= 't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to.

+1.

Befo= re becoming a chair, all I encountered was a black hole. Now as a chair I s= ee the interactions and it is quite insightful, while at the same time some= times being none of my business (in a responsibility sense).

<= div>In the QUIC WG, most of our business is done on GitHub. The mailing lis= t remains fairly quiet and the signal to noise ratio is good. Reflecting a = full auth 48 discourse onto the QUIC list would be a negative in my opinion= . A single email to notify people about the fact that auth48 has started, a= nd where to go and subscribe, would be good though.

Cheers
Lucas

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Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:56:40 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Working Group Chairs , IETF , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , RFC Interest CC: Lucas Pardue , Eric Rescorla , Ted Hardie Thread-Topic: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications Thread-Index: AQHYKc1ZnWhl+rbNOEuaECP10wQbPqykWpiAgABbioCAAAUEAP//scoA Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:56:39 +0000 Message-ID: <142257F1-5E73-43C6-B644-24EEEAA107CA@akamai.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.58.22021501 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_142257F15E7343C6B64424EEEAA107CAakamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.816 definitions=2022-02-25_06:2022-02-25, 2022-02-25 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=450 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202250086 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: HQJtDkwZ-QecG7LhSjJ6SHBS-0soL9FY X-Proofpoint-GUID: HQJtDkwZ-QecG7LhSjJ6SHBS-0soL9FY X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.64.514 definitions=2022-02-25_08,2022-02-25_01,2022-02-23_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=431 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202250087 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:56:52 -0000 --_000_142257F15E7343C6B64424EEEAA107CAakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:14:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:14:29 +0000 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: IESG , IETF Announcement List , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , irtf-announce@irtf.org, IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:15:07 -0000 On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the WG l= ist would be a mistake. > > In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about small = details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I am = on. > > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. > > -Ekr > This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them. There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list. I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers. regards, Ted Hardie > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie wrote: >> >> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I >> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: >> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That >> keeps the information related to a single document in a common place, >> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it >> would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is >> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested >> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if there >> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussions >> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. >> >> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those >> lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by >> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address >> which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list >> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your >> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. >> >> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored >> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. >> >> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs. >> >> regards, >> >> Ted Hardie >> >> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you a >> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information that >> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to >> the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may >> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived >> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >> advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair >> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount >> of cruft. >> >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: >> > >> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to >> > making all materials related to our standards process and other >> > activities publicly available. >> > >> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of >> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the fir= st >> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once t= he >> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between author= s >> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of >> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when >> > applicable). >> > >> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document >> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manage= r, >> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read >> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of >> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the >> > conversation between authors and RFC editors. >> > >> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, >> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when >> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list= . >> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a >> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. >> > >> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same >> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the >> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be n= umber, >> > cluster number, sender, and date. >> > >> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival= , >> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t en= vision >> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive >> > information needs to be shared. >> > >> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text abo= ut >> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcemen= t, >> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set >> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this >> > thread by 24 March 2022. >> > >> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > IETF-Announce mailing list >> > IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >> _______________________________________________ >> rfc-interest mailing list >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest From nobody Fri Feb 25 07:38:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FD63A084B; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:38:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6-UxRpSp7QST; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AC503A09E1; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id j7so10081500lfu.6; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:38:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=P+hAID5LUntTmJ/wnqQaaOQkz3ojYfJlNelyYxTaQ0U=; b=IOwAXzoOtfIl4f7UcWD2gGjyB9MNzqofyBYsoIQVrZrPhZPQ1xcLFXFhAz8acvbmzM McGa1vx1oGhOb92y7WSEukwG3mpqs/iEplnvjR8pGUR5QYmjZUQ7QqC2i/S091B2ZgsI 6HuE2KX2ENXSQ2Ezr0tmSO0glYaVZX2axbQKNETUq3x7U5V2fYlV5nY9InJmGGMo4VMv N7uZIQzqPRoMjpg9Su3fKjVTW2vHFDrql+kDRDaPA6MU2goOvAFFNDkp8cgn68yQfKhY JNl2eBUuqEyWkAWlGuYiALrVDyCIJiJ724E0cDNoUy1LLob6aJHJo0TxMgmKzYH5Q+GW dS7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=P+hAID5LUntTmJ/wnqQaaOQkz3ojYfJlNelyYxTaQ0U=; b=T3IDuGtuBbwsZPAjLPBTlE3RuBkdble2EgfJK3yCBK9Wayn4rHMYa4RWpfiQKLk/45 awr+hTmwVT8bzXi9KTpHTmAidcALa38R56wBY44Ybsb9ZbOjCNT6d3ItbIHg9T1kuEUX EVGYskGBd9PX+7Z7v8RqWcxSUqfMAiBxR/SngYpy1h8qEajcGRvYUT7k/abEIQDfDW76 RRr78+FhgcxH63Q0zQMkqexDa2dX5ywSB8EN40UotMZbTKwCUzom7LBrUklLNj8udr8H fgb08yB8ufizUovx9l5q0Qpz4Cm8NGCI6iRoe9bsuqwwVVg0U1TjbMkrS0MxTcUkw04s NKdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531OYAg9X84DWpsUna9bptiCM+DBZKDJB+zLh1cDWXtDDqNVGH/Q QWVQzNKrUnVYSzcsYFdbR4d/LI15WHWG/hl3M2R9SgfFbLE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCmqx3N5wIoU1N5VVfLX2B9nxu1vyr6y3iCPHoNiVli/6WkThU04h+jbOOm0tayw19JtgPsiwaRBRPB4yIIGU= X-Received: by 2002:a19:f807:0:b0:444:65e:d555 with SMTP id a7-20020a19f807000000b00444065ed555mr5171471lff.443.1645803476291; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:37:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:37:45 -0600 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, IESG , IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000093145105d8d97b91" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:38:06 -0000 --00000000000093145105d8d97b91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 7:45 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 25. Feb 2022, at 01:42, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > > >> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, > > > > Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far. > > We already discussed this in the IRSG and would like to join. > > My personal take: We have enough ossification of RFC-related matters; I > don=E2=80=99t think we need to push this one up to 2026. > The RSWG can tweak this when they get to power. > > +1 Behcet > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --00000000000093145105d8d97b91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 7:45 PM Carst= en Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:<= br>
On 25. Feb 2022, at 01:42, Brian E Carpenter <= brian.e.ca= rpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversati= ons,
>
> Please confirm that this is only for IETF stream documents so far.

We already discussed this in the IRSG and would like to join.

My personal take: We have enough ossification of RFC-related matters; I don= =E2=80=99t think we need to push this one up to 2026.
The RSWG can tweak this when they get to power.



+1

=
Behcet
=C2=A0
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

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boundary="_000_HE1PR07MB42177A57FE4D4225E0A0393E983E9HE1PR07MB4217eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR07MB4217.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6412105c-fb3d-41b5-ff39-08d9f87584e3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Feb 2022 15:43:07.2938 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: BloUErIDiYRKvOYB6OI/V3QZ6I4qCNhQonqv/IyzEVqKmUC5fcefnqkEX6yzwBwNKAY1dJsN0e6rCalGdtGNaRkus2pQrzNSSD9yohccBJmTNcs8Qh+85eeJu887in/t X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB6223 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:43:27 -0000 --_000_HE1PR07MB42177A57FE4D4225E0A0393E983E9HE1PR07MB4217eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I am monitoring the discussion, listening to the feedback, and hope to answ= er to all comments later on. Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separate mailing list was also the= proposal, I am trying to understand the difference with Ekr=92s suggestion= . If I understand correctly, the difference with what Ekr is suggesting is th= at there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for each AUTH48 conversation, is = that the idea? This was discussed, but the same sort of subscribing and fil= tering can be achieved locally even with one single list, and would require= less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure I see the interest of settin= g it up that way. Thanks, Francesca From: iesg on behalf of Ted Hardie Date: Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15 To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org , IETF , RFC Interest , IESG , irtf-announce@irtf.org , IETF Announcement List Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the WG l= ist would be a mistake. > > In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about small = details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I am = on. > > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. > > -Ekr > This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them. There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list. I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers. regards, Ted Hardie > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie wrote: >> >> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I >> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: >> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That >> keeps the information related to a single document in a common place, >> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it >> would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is >> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested >> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if there >> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussions >> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. >> >> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those >> lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by >> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address >> which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list >> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your >> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. >> >> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored >> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. >> >> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs. >> >> regards, >> >> Ted Hardie >> >> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you a >> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information that >> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to >> the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may >> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived >> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >> advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair >> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount >> of cruft. >> >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: >> > >> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to >> > making all materials related to our standards process and other >> > activities publicly available. >> > >> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of >> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the fir= st >> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once t= he >> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between author= s >> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of >> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when >> > applicable). >> > >> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document >> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manage= r, >> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read >> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of >> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the >> > conversation between authors and RFC editors. >> > >> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, >> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when >> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list= . >> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a >> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. >> > >> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same >> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the >> > mails=92 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be number, >> > cluster number, sender, and date. >> > >> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival= , >> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=92t envision >> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive >> > information needs to be shared. >> > >> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text abo= ut >> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcemen= t, >> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set >> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this >> > thread by 24 March 2022. >> > >> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > IETF-Announce mailing list >> > IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >> _______________________________________________ >> rfc-interest mailing list >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest --_000_HE1PR07MB42177A57FE4D4225E0A0393E983E9HE1PR07MB4217eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all, <= o:p>

&nbs= p;

I am moni= toring the discussion, listening to the feedback, and hope to answer to all= comments later on.

&nbs= p;

Ted: Just= a clarification question. As a separate mailing list was also the proposal= , I am trying to understand the difference with Ekr=92s suggestion.

If I unde= rstand correctly, the difference with what Ekr is suggesting is that there = would be one AUTH48 mailing list for each AUTH48 conversation, is that the = idea? This was discussed, but the same sort of subscribing and filtering can be achieved locally even with one si= ngle list, and would require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure = I see the interest of setting it up that way.

&nbs= p;

Thanks, Francesca

&nbs= p;

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, admin-discuss@ie= tf.org <admin-discuss@ietf.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>, RFC Inte= rest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, irtf-= announce@irtf.org <irtf-announce@irtf.org>, IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at= 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the W= G list would be a mistake.
>
> In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about sma= ll details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I = am on.
>
> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to.<= br> >
> -Ekr
>
This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way
the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them.
There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as
to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list.
I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same
here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers.

regards,

Ted Hardie


>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>= wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously.  = I
>> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementati= on:
>> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions.&nbs= p; That
>> keeps the information related to a single document in a common pla= ce,
>> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than = it
>> would be if it were in a dedicated list.  While your proposal= is
>> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested
>> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if t= here
>> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discuss= ions
>> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions.<= br> >>
>> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working<= br> >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since thos= e
>> lists are not read only.  You can avoid them doing so directl= y by
>> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only addr= ess
>> which does not receive mail.*  That would not stop a mailing = list
>> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but y= our
>> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either.
>>
>> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponso= red
>> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list.
>>
>> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow<= br> >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily<= br> >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different ne= eds.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Ted Hardie
>>
>> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives y= ou a
>> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information = that
>> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links= to
>> the RFCs-to-be.  If you do not choose this implementation, yo= u may
>> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archive= d
>> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >> advance of actual publication.  Since some AUTH48 issues take= a fair
>> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amou= nt
>> of cruft.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> wr= ote:
>> >
>> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our comm= itment to
>> > making all materials related to our standards process and oth= er
>> > activities publicly available.
>> >
>> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream,= most of
>> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - fro= m the first
>> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. Howeve= r, once the
>> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication betwe= en authors
>> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific= set of
>> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chai= rs (when
>> > applicable).
>> >
>> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of = document
>> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Proje= ct Manager,
>> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search= and read
>> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of=
>> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people = in the
>> > conversation between authors and RFC editors.
>> >
>> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conve= rsations,
>> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors,= when
>> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mai= ling list.
>> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and = as a
>> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.
>> >
>> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on t= he same
>> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based = on the
>> > mails=92 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-b= e number,
>> > cluster number, sender, and date.
>> >
>> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from= archival,
>> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=92t= envision
>> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where s= ensitive
>> > information needs to be shared.
>> >
>> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include= text about
>> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this an= nouncement,
>> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback befo= re we set
>> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or repl= y to this
>> > thread by 24 March 2022.
>> >
>> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > IETF-Announce mailing list
>> > IETF-Announce@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>> _______________________________________________
>> rfc-interest mailing list
>> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest<= /p>

--_000_HE1PR07MB42177A57FE4D4225E0A0393E983E9HE1PR07MB4217eurp_-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 07:47:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593C33A0A67; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:46:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uKHuoGFp99oL; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2C3D3A0981; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K4vJz742BzDCcB; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:46:43 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:46:43 +0100 Cc: Ted Hardie , IESG , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 667496803.551365-f792dc90cad405f34c63a839bf6f5bb6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9FF5FC17-C2A8-44B9-B5BA-DEECD3CD8B16@tzi.org> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:46:53 -0000 On 2022-02-25, at 15:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. Doubles the number of lists I need to subscribe to. I think I=E2=80=99d prefer the AUTH48 list. (But I do understand the preference here will depend on whether you = employ a mail client that has functionality for handling non-trivial = mail sources.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 25 07:58:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22623A0A9A; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:58:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v0ws_YOEjztD; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 870A13A0A32; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee70b4b00685b2e0302e763a7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e70b:4b00:685b:2e03:2e7:63a7]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1nNczS-0003Yh-C0; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:58:42 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <9FF5FC17-C2A8-44B9-B5BA-DEECD3CD8B16@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:58:41 +0100 Cc: Eric Rescorla , Working Group Chairs , Ted Hardie , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3A683FB7-0EF5-48BA-94BC-48AC28BDF6FE@kuehlewind.net> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <9FF5FC17-C2A8-44B9-B5BA-DEECD3CD8B16@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1645804727;0dd6c544; X-HE-SMSGID: 1nNczS-0003Yh-C0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:58:53 -0000 Just one small comment below. > On 25. Feb 2022, at 16:46, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2022-02-25, at 15:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. >=20 > Doubles the number of lists I need to subscribe to. But you don=E2=80=99t have to subscribe to any new list. Those people = who get the AUTH48 mails today would still get them directly - so now = change needed. The intend is actually that people won=E2=80=99t = subscribe to the list but only can use the archives to look up anything = if needed. Of course we can=E2=80=99t stop anybody from subscribing but = that is really not the intention here. Mirja >=20 > I think I=E2=80=99d prefer the AUTH48 list. >=20 > (But I do understand the preference here will depend on whether you = employ a mail client that has functionality for handling non-trivial = mail sources.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 25 08:25:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379963A0D77; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:25:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.318 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.318 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id olVJUYhQMvo0; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from server217-1.web-hosting.com (server217-1.web-hosting.com [198.54.114.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F60D3A09E3; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:25:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=dSScJuWzGC1byZGOv2k2kVuLQMM/2O+YONWAxW3MDRs=; b=h7yPNHrMBveLLgeJrJkJJNZ53W hDGoYfte39+UYQyl1vOdNuikEK1GtcpXf+FGS2PetS2LXgSrJcJcrt28zQMYBL6tfGhU/S9dz/f25 NMn48vs69Jt3Dd7fyqBMKAx7XLaqo8e6Khbx3Q0bq2R9zB4OnwZpZOuVA0jChCEKFkERexI5aGYiA P15ja8ahi1yJ3I3+C5e08nxLZ5Gjdn2KPMBxvxfv7jtYajiqy4I8VIIHpNKc79JGDAYbnGVGIPEyt cHjv1EcVUKLZgaDQW6e76WMYM6Y8cPXSUv6adPiaaold7wf631705y4pCHjcxk930PGwacPjkm8Ph 7+LMiEYg==; Received: from cpe-172-114-237-88.socal.res.rr.com ([172.114.237.88]:62012 helo=smtpclient.apple) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nNdPL-001c1x-Tn; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 11:25:32 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2CA186FD-B86E-4799-A612-C2B798ABDB54" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: "touch@strayalpha.com" In-Reply-To: <9FF5FC17-C2A8-44B9-B5BA-DEECD3CD8B16@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:25:25 -0800 Cc: Eric Rescorla , Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IESG Message-Id: <80B5CD47-AAF9-4316-B62C-105591E5289A@strayalpha.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <9FF5FC17-C2A8-44B9-B5BA-DEECD3CD8B16@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:25:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2CA186FD-B86E-4799-A612-C2B798ABDB54 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Why are we trying to do something with email that might be better = handled with a more semantically rich technology, e.g., an issue = tracker? That way, the info is organized and can be cross-linked without needing = copies. Joe =E2=80=94 Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Feb 25, 2022, at 7:46 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2022-02-25, at 15:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. >=20 > Doubles the number of lists I need to subscribe to. >=20 > I think I=E2=80=99d prefer the AUTH48 list. >=20 > (But I do understand the preference here will depend on whether you = employ a mail client that has functionality for handling non-trivial = mail sources.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest --Apple-Mail=_2CA186FD-B86E-4799-A612-C2B798ABDB54 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Why = are we trying to do something with email that might be better handled = with a more semantically rich technology, e.g., an issue tracker?

That way, the info is = organized and can be cross-linked without needing copies.

Joe

=E2=80=94
Dr. Joe Touch, = temporal epistemologist
www.strayalpha.com

On Feb 25, 2022, at 7:46 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> = wrote:

On 2022-02-25, at 15:18, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I don't = object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to.

Doubles the number of lists I = need to subscribe to.

I think I=E2=80=99d = prefer the AUTH48 list.

(But I do = understand the preference here will depend on whether you employ a mail = client that has functionality for handling non-trivial mail sources.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest

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Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:59:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:58:45 -0800 Message-ID: To: Francesca Palombini Cc: Ted Hardie , Working Group Chairs , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , IETF , RFC Interest , IESG , "irtf-announce@irtf.org" , IETF Announcement List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bfcbb405d8da9e62" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:59:28 -0000 --000000000000bfcbb405d8da9e62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Francesca Palombini < francesca.palombini@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I am monitoring the discussion, listening to the feedback, and hope to > answer to all comments later on. > > > > Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separate mailing list was also > the proposal, I am trying to understand the difference with Ekr=E2=80=99s > suggestion. > > If I understand correctly, the difference with what Ekr is suggesting is > that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for each AUTH48 conversation, > is that the idea? This was discussed, but the same sort of subscribing an= d > filtering can be achieved locally even with one single list, and would > require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure I see the interest = of > setting it up that way. > No, I'm suggesting that it doesn't go to the main WG mailing list. I am indifferent to whether it is a single list for all AUTH48 communications for a WG or one for each RFC. What I don't think we should do is just change the setup for each WG mailing list so that suddenly everyone gets the AUTH48 stuff whether they care or not, thus forcing most of those people to set up filters to filter it out. -Ekr > > > Thanks, > Francesca > > > > *From: *iesg on behalf of Ted Hardie < > ted.ietf@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15 > *To: *Eric Rescorla > *Cc: *Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org < > admin-discuss@ietf.org>, IETF , RFC Interest < > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG , irtf-announce@irtf.or= g > , IETF Announcement List > *Subject: *Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the WG > list would be a mistake. > > > > In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about smal= l > details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I a= m > on. > > > > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. > > > > -Ekr > > > This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way > the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them. > There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as > to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list. > I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same > here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers. > > regards, > > Ted Hardie > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie wrote: > >> > >> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I > >> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: > >> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That > >> keeps the information related to a single document in a common place, > >> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it > >> would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is > >> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested > >> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if there > >> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussions > >> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. > >> > >> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working > >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those > >> lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by > >> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address > >> which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list > >> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your > >> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. > >> > >> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored > >> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. > >> > >> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow > >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily > >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs. > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Ted Hardie > >> > >> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you a > >> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information that > >> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to > >> the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may > >> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived > >> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in > >> advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair > >> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount > >> of cruft. > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: > >> > > >> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent > >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment = to > >> > making all materials related to our standards process and other > >> > activities publicly available. > >> > > >> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most o= f > >> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the > first > >> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once > the > >> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between > authors > >> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of > >> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (whe= n > >> > applicable). > >> > > >> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of documen= t > >> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project > Manager, > >> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and re= ad > >> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of > >> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the > >> > conversation between authors and RFC editors. > >> > > >> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversation= s, > >> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when > >> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing > list. > >> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a > >> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. > >> > > >> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same > >> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the > >> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be= number, > >> > cluster number, sender, and date. > >> > > >> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from > archival, > >> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t = envision > >> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitiv= e > >> > information needs to be shared. > >> > > >> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text > about > >> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this > announcement, > >> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we s= et > >> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to > this > >> > thread by 24 March 2022. > >> > > >> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > IETF-Announce mailing list > >> > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rfc-interest mailing list > >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > --000000000000bfcbb405d8da9e62 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Franc= esca Palombini <fran= cesca.palombini@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi all,

=C2=A0

I am monitoring the discussion, listening to t= he feedback, and hope to answer to all comments later on.

=C2=A0

Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separ= ate mailing list was also the proposal, I am trying to understand the diffe= rence with Ekr=E2=80=99s suggestion.

If I understand correctly, the difference with= what Ekr is suggesting is that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for = each AUTH48 conversation, is that the idea? This was discussed, but the sam= e sort of subscribing and filtering can be achieved locally even with one si= ngle list, and would require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure = I see the interest of setting it up that way.


No, I'm suggesting that it doesn't go to = the main WG mailing list. I am indifferent to whether it is a single list f= or all AUTH48 communications for a WG or one for each RFC.

What I don't think we should do is just change the setup for e= ach WG mailing list so that suddenly everyone gets the AUTH48 stuff whether= they care or not, thus forcing most of those people to set up filters to f= ilter it out.

-Ekr

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks,
Francesca

=C2=A0

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ted Har= die <ted.ietf@gm= ail.com>
Date: Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, admin-discuss@ietf.org <admin-discuss@ietf.org>,= IETF <ietf@ietf.org<= /a>>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, irtf-announce@irtf.org &l= t;irtf-announce= @irtf.org>, IETF Announcement List <ietf-= announce@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications=

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2= :19 PM Eric Rescorla <= ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the W= G list would be a mistake.
>
> In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about sma= ll details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I = am on.
>
> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe = to.
>
> -Ekr
>
This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way
the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them.
There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as<= br> to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list.
I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same<= br> here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers.

regards,

Ted Hardie


>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously.=C2=A0 = I
>> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementati= on:
>> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions.= =C2=A0 That
>> keeps the information related to a single document in a common pla= ce,
>> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than = it
>> would be if it were in a dedicated list.=C2=A0 While your proposal= is
>> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested
>> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if t= here
>> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discuss= ions
>> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions.<= br> >>
>> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working<= br> >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since = those
>> lists are not read only.=C2=A0 You can avoid them doing so directl= y by
>> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only addr= ess
>> which does not receive mail.*=C2=A0 That would not stop a mailing = list
>> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but y= our
>> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either.
>>
>> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponso= red
>> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list.
>>
>> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow<= br> >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily<= br> >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different ne= eds.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Ted Hardie
>>
>> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives y= ou a
>> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information = that
>> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links= to
>> the RFCs-to-be.=C2=A0 If you do not choose this implementation, yo= u may
>> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archive= d
>> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >> advance of actual publication.=C2=A0 Since some AUTH48 issues take= a fair
>> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amou= nt
>> of cruft.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our comm= itment to
>> > making all materials related to our standards process and oth= er
>> > activities publicly available.
>> >
>> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream,= most of
>> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - fro= m the first
>> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. Howeve= r, once the
>> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication betwe= en authors
>> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific= set of
>> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chai= rs (when
>> > applicable).
>> >
>> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of = document
>> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Proje= ct Manager,
>> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search= and read
>> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of=
>> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people = in the
>> > conversation between authors and RFC editors.
>> >
>> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conve= rsations,
>> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors,= when
>> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mai= ling list.
>> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and = as a
>> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.
>> >
>> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on t= he same
>> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based = on the
>> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RF= C-to-be number,
>> > cluster number, sender, and date.
>> >
>> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from= archival,
>> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2= =80=99t envision
>> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where s= ensitive
>> > information needs to be shared.
>> >
>> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include= text about
>> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this an= nouncement,
>> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback befo= re we set
>> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this
>> > thread by 24 March 2022.
>> >
>> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > IETF-Announce mailing list
>> > I= ETF-Announce@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>> _______________________________________________
>> rfc-interest mailing list
>> r= fc-interest@rfc-editor.org
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-intere= st

--000000000000bfcbb405d8da9e62-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 09:09:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1B53A0BDA; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:09:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CypnNOSC6M-D; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 401453A0BC7; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id h16so7185613iol.11; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:09:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XMLCCKmmSEvsg5NA9vX+uL5TGNOE6n90CCV7MgBMRcY=; b=JLTxsIz9wlRPzsjDUu1UqrYLBD2gKCEJMcI3HAtRXSI5brggWv+zzJbpXgt4/uPUC5 hMiF5DRIgiii7xv1XQSgXtwDicZp1uA4FNjb3duTrXDUEs2yYHCoE18JLhzvFE1uRc+m NoxFwk4RA36dN9xvSBlek4V15JisizN1CRe2cMw5oSXnDQixF2bVwkLx0BklwOHIpXlM lxm3NhDYQBPdOdtsT+dFFm1SuR1GiV7XCtdpdhU6Jfhehi1C9yyLU8PYRNHlLfvJ/V+0 0z6BZxTY66lgj4WJDSqtDGaJ+6pNx4Qv5fYi63VsZvrUpJ2lNazpt3DlhImKw2ZNUPAJ lGmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XMLCCKmmSEvsg5NA9vX+uL5TGNOE6n90CCV7MgBMRcY=; b=5Nqadgf+BhD92zbGigemtHv6KdwqnSVdWDRf+lVhLdS/xFhvQpkW1NbMmE+eba0nvi 2+K4DPd80T1hi65EOrGg9QHfUAi/2ePlcCJsDGx6pLPa+uZGnanACqUUSKl97+gfrvUr vUYIKfbQPi3TOIvMABc2b89gC2zpkelKwibcbd1vvi9fJW546tbxMrc+M/Wou0B5hLNI M8/krit38tSENDewPrDLGRQGTFPUfIvipf+NrOvnKt6hX/Yc6mavz2yZ95S6DNl3nqmq g8YGAELKSqtMe9B7iOT2yh8QVTWms9KW6jCdpgKPon+UD+73ORBYRmRgNCZxuB/tH5dH HeoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532I1b+I+VOA1iCE3hEoXo0C4zBu67Lfso0zqp7DP+sxY41HhXPa 5NEcqy02eUNFUGK0UpRPH+vK3NNW9BCgVG6DkGk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJysKqBvn0Sb5Uh2HY7bXbWed5bwOb9unWeNRiFfUvCb/ZNPh8QakogJzmbmHnTVijGaiK31DsKYnGYiGpHld9g= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2011:b0:640:dc49:ed8 with SMTP id y17-20020a056602201100b00640dc490ed8mr6004508iod.125.1645808975788; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:09:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 17:09:08 +0000 Message-ID: To: Francesca Palombini Cc: Eric Rescorla , Working Group Chairs , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , IETF , RFC Interest , IESG , "irtf-announce@irtf.org" , IETF Announcement List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005ebe1605d8dac339" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 17:09:43 -0000 --0000000000005ebe1605d8dac339 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 3:43 PM Francesca Palombini < francesca.palombini@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I am monitoring the discussion, listening to the feedback, and hope to > answer to all comments later on. > > > > Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separate mailing list was also > the proposal, I am trying to understand the difference with Ekr=E2=80=99s > suggestion. > > If I understand correctly, the difference with what Ekr is suggesting is > that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for each AUTH48 conversation, > is that the idea? > I believe it would be for each working group. So if you are a member of the QUIC working group, as an example, you can choose to subscribe to the AUTH48 list for QUIC's working group drafts. If you do, you will see (but not be able to respond directly) to the related traffic. For those working groups that use github, there is already a method to subscribe to a separate mailing list that receives the github repo traffic. You can decide whether to follow that by tracking it on github, by following the mailing list, or not at all. Similarly, if you subscribe to that list you can decide whether to intermingle the messages with the regular working group email or keep it separate on a working-group by working group basis. > This was discussed, but the same sort of subscribing and filtering can be > achieved locally even with one single list, > You're asking a whole bunch of people to configure a whole bunch of filters to get functionality that mirrors functionality we do all the time on the IETF side (with draft-authors style lists). I'm not sure that I understand why that's a big win. regards, Ted > and would require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure I see the > interest of setting it up that way. > > > > Thanks, > Francesca > > > > *From: *iesg on behalf of Ted Hardie < > ted.ietf@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15 > *To: *Eric Rescorla > *Cc: *Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org < > admin-discuss@ietf.org>, IETF , RFC Interest < > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG , irtf-announce@irtf.or= g > , IETF Announcement List > *Subject: *Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the WG > list would be a mistake. > > > > In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about smal= l > details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I a= m > on. > > > > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. > > > > -Ekr > > > This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way > the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them. > There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as > to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list. > I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same > here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers. > > regards, > > Ted Hardie > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie wrote: > >> > >> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I > >> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: > >> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That > >> keeps the information related to a single document in a common place, > >> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it > >> would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is > >> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested > >> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if there > >> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussions > >> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. > >> > >> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working > >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those > >> lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by > >> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address > >> which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list > >> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your > >> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. > >> > >> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored > >> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. > >> > >> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow > >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily > >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs. > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Ted Hardie > >> > >> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you a > >> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information that > >> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to > >> the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may > >> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived > >> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in > >> advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair > >> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount > >> of cruft. > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: > >> > > >> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent > >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment = to > >> > making all materials related to our standards process and other > >> > activities publicly available. > >> > > >> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most o= f > >> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the > first > >> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once > the > >> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between > authors > >> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of > >> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (whe= n > >> > applicable). > >> > > >> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of documen= t > >> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project > Manager, > >> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and re= ad > >> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of > >> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the > >> > conversation between authors and RFC editors. > >> > > >> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversation= s, > >> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when > >> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing > list. > >> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a > >> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. > >> > > >> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same > >> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the > >> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be= number, > >> > cluster number, sender, and date. > >> > > >> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from > archival, > >> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t = envision > >> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitiv= e > >> > information needs to be shared. > >> > > >> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text > about > >> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this > announcement, > >> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we s= et > >> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to > this > >> > thread by 24 March 2022. > >> > > >> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > IETF-Announce mailing list > >> > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rfc-interest mailing list > >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > --0000000000005ebe1605d8dac339 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 3:43 PM Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson= .com> wrote:

Hi all,

=C2=A0

I am monitoring the discussion, listening to t= he feedback, and hope to answer to all comments later on.

=C2=A0

Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separ= ate mailing list was also the proposal, I am trying to understand the diffe= rence with Ekr=E2=80=99s suggestion.

If I understand correctly, the difference with= what Ekr is suggesting is that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for = each AUTH48 conversation, is that the idea?


I believe it would be for each working group.=C2=A0 So if you are a mem= ber of the QUIC working group, as an example, you can choose to subscribe t= o the AUTH48 list for QUIC's working group drafts.=C2=A0 If you do, you= will see (but not be able to respond directly) to the related traffic.=C2= =A0

For those workin= g groups that use github, there is already a method to subscribe to a separ= ate mailing list that receives the github repo traffic.=C2=A0 You can decid= e whether to follow that by tracking it on github, by following the mailing= list, or not at all.=C2=A0 Similarly, if you subscribe to that list you ca= n decide whether to intermingle the messages with the regular working group= email or keep it separate on a working-group by working group basis.
=C2=A0

This w= as discussed, but the same sort of subscribing and filtering can be achieved locally even with one si= ngle list,


You're asking a whole bunch of people to configure= a whole bunch of filters to get functionality that mirrors functionality w= e do all the time on the IETF side (with draft-authors style lists).=C2=A0 = I'm not sure that I understand why that's a big win.

regards,

Ted


=C2=A0

and would require less tooling and RPC cha= nge, so I am not sure I see the interest of setting it up that way.<= u>

=C2=A0

Thanks,
Francesca

=C2=A0

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ted Har= die <ted.ietf@gm= ail.com>
Date: Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, admin-discuss@ietf.org <admin-discuss@ietf.org>,= IETF <ietf@ietf.org<= /a>>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, irtf-announce@irtf.org &l= t;irtf-announce= @irtf.org>, IETF Announcement List <ietf-= announce@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications=

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2= :19 PM Eric Rescorla <= ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the W= G list would be a mistake.
>
> In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about sma= ll details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I = am on.
>
> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe = to.
>
> -Ekr
>
This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way
the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them.
There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as<= br> to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list.
I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same<= br> here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers.

regards,

Ted Hardie


>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously.=C2=A0 = I
>> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementati= on:
>> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions.= =C2=A0 That
>> keeps the information related to a single document in a common pla= ce,
>> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than = it
>> would be if it were in a dedicated list.=C2=A0 While your proposal= is
>> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested
>> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if t= here
>> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discuss= ions
>> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions.<= br> >>
>> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working<= br> >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since = those
>> lists are not read only.=C2=A0 You can avoid them doing so directl= y by
>> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only addr= ess
>> which does not receive mail.*=C2=A0 That would not stop a mailing = list
>> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but y= our
>> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either.
>>
>> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponso= red
>> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list.
>>
>> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow<= br> >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily<= br> >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different ne= eds.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Ted Hardie
>>
>> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives y= ou a
>> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information = that
>> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links= to
>> the RFCs-to-be.=C2=A0 If you do not choose this implementation, yo= u may
>> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archive= d
>> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >> advance of actual publication.=C2=A0 Since some AUTH48 issues take= a fair
>> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amou= nt
>> of cruft.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our comm= itment to
>> > making all materials related to our standards process and oth= er
>> > activities publicly available.
>> >
>> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream,= most of
>> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - fro= m the first
>> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. Howeve= r, once the
>> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication betwe= en authors
>> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific= set of
>> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chai= rs (when
>> > applicable).
>> >
>> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of = document
>> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Proje= ct Manager,
>> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search= and read
>> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of=
>> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people = in the
>> > conversation between authors and RFC editors.
>> >
>> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conve= rsations,
>> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors,= when
>> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mai= ling list.
>> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and = as a
>> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.
>> >
>> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on t= he same
>> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based = on the
>> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RF= C-to-be number,
>> > cluster number, sender, and date.
>> >
>> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from= archival,
>> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2= =80=99t envision
>> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where s= ensitive
>> > information needs to be shared.
>> >
>> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include= text about
>> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this an= nouncement,
>> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback befo= re we set
>> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this
>> > thread by 24 March 2022.
>> >
>> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > IETF-Announce mailing list
>> > I= ETF-Announce@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>> _______________________________________________
>> rfc-interest mailing list
>> r= fc-interest@rfc-editor.org
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-intere= st

--0000000000005ebe1605d8dac339-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 09:12:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B183A0C86; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:12:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GtiQGRQ6typT; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9C043A0BE3; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id i1so4783900ila.7; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:12:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1q5RJgbzEF0uPgTdJ7rzlPa3RG9F5Z8Rq+rwTfQu/ik=; b=jZJjdgX+0ctPrHg/MBRIH0iC8JnQZLklyeVuYy4qAB7bS/lvA0lUNK3obcv+1M/j6p dxBKfJzlD3LN450IGz5iOu7tSlOR4BT0vLSMyTL3oVzSsfHnePM6YlKAwofvq0cSymUB Ad3I+e3edtjludTmkXkuqcIxrlu0dd5yTuxwjS6DdAkoW/rfZ1P7O0gyqD1VjtW/KKDv LhvrTyLq4SPwpZ2yM7KLgriGCy8sVh7c6TpxhtdJ/fISWy0LRfft3orCzz3Glf8qHe0E C/GRVxjl8m1eJadUsIMMKo5DH6Ar/+MpRR1AzxRjmO0Q/SXlcpyzeWaV+XzbM8FkVZG9 ryyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1q5RJgbzEF0uPgTdJ7rzlPa3RG9F5Z8Rq+rwTfQu/ik=; b=rzwTlnFLPwC8ruwIRh9Hvyv7Br6M5bb182Z02v8EqR8Rs5ynvaGLsyGYsCubVtOYZa 7CORiNkwtz3X9fGrMQQlOJLh2Il/dDPnQMksZYo0YoX7BquxUy1F6fFarkXeR7KeXPc5 RRyiUQjxl8jMKm1HrbyMZpN9f3mnHoE9UNMc0tsgAKvmBj+tKej0ttPS15cqQy2ugi2V nsu+2qx4DoUBNJSszkmk2w/8rQNlipTZN0n7g2Cq6Z/wptr1JRoAl75Hg1qMeuwScrEx +Oz4Dwt+bsZV6l3f/F3w8UtK7y6BuMj7MXrP+Pz70eT/CcZurxStCce92EOOVuKa+6IX iSnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531NUK7OL2wGSm9ppoCUkWbLh/vkYo36jSgRL6c819Qdnak36mEe a39ouq2sEiungjD3y4rbAm+p2bziAnJVkw+d/4g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxt5tK13nuYfj7e08QmUwhiRdl4aQPc+EDkNYUaKKW9DcgqwgujzwNtvnlQX1xmJJmHpc/hQrlVnnQitHgbtzg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:20e8:b0:2c1:e164:76e6 with SMTP id q8-20020a056e0220e800b002c1e16476e6mr7100581ilv.135.1645809149669; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:12:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 17:12:03 +0000 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Francesca Palombini , Working Group Chairs , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , IETF , RFC Interest , IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bbf79f05d8dacd9e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 17:12:37 -0000 --000000000000bbf79f05d8dacd9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 4:59 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Francesca Palombini < > francesca.palombini@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I am monitoring the discussion, listening to the feedback, and hope to >> answer to all comments later on. >> >> >> >> Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separate mailing list was also >> the proposal, I am trying to understand the difference with Ekr=E2=80=99= s >> suggestion. >> >> If I understand correctly, the difference with what Ekr is suggesting is >> that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for each AUTH48 conversation= , >> is that the idea? This was discussed, but the same sort of subscribing a= nd >> filtering can be achieved locally even with one single list, and would >> require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure I see the interest= of >> setting it up that way. >> > > No, I'm suggesting that it doesn't go to the main WG mailing list. I am > indifferent to whether it is a single list for all AUTH48 communications > for a WG or one for each RFC. > > What I don't think we should do is just change the setup for each WG > mailing list so that suddenly everyone gets the AUTH48 stuff whether they > care or not, thus forcing most of those people to set up filters to filte= r > it out. > I see I misrepresented you in my mail to Francesca. I thought you were proposing to do it by WG, rather than by draft. To me, that's the natural unit of review here. That's why I initially suggested using the WG mailing list, and why I would be fine with setting up a per WG AUTH48 list as a separate list. That is, in any case, what I now suggest. regards, Ted Hardie > > -Ekr > > > >> >> >> Thanks, >> Francesca >> >> >> >> *From: *iesg on behalf of Ted Hardie < >> ted.ietf@gmail.com> >> *Date: *Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15 >> *To: *Eric Rescorla >> *Cc: *Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org < >> admin-discuss@ietf.org>, IETF , RFC Interest < >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG , >> irtf-announce@irtf.org , IETF Announcement List = < >> ietf-announce@ietf.org> >> *Subject: *Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications >> >> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > >> > While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the W= G >> list would be a mistake. >> > >> > In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about >> small details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG l= ist >> I am on. >> > >> > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. >> > >> > -Ekr >> > >> This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way >> the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them. >> There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as >> to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list. >> I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same >> here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers. >> >> regards, >> >> Ted Hardie >> >> >> > >> > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie wrote= : >> >> >> >> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I >> >> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: >> >> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That >> >> keeps the information related to a single document in a common place, >> >> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it >> >> would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is >> >> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested >> >> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if ther= e >> >> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussion= s >> >> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. >> >> >> >> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working >> >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those >> >> lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by >> >> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address >> >> which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list >> >> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your >> >> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. >> >> >> >> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored >> >> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. >> >> >> >> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow >> >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily >> >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs= . >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> >> >> Ted Hardie >> >> >> >> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you = a >> >> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information tha= t >> >> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to >> >> the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may >> >> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived >> >> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >> >> advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair >> >> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount >> >> of cruft. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: >> >> > >> >> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment >> to >> >> > making all materials related to our standards process and other >> >> > activities publicly available. >> >> > >> >> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most = of >> >> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the >> first >> >> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, onc= e >> the >> >> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between >> authors >> >> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set o= f >> >> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (wh= en >> >> > applicable). >> >> > >> >> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of docume= nt >> >> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project >> Manager, >> >> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and >> read >> >> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of >> >> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the >> >> > conversation between authors and RFC editors. >> >> > >> >> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 >> conversations, >> >> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when >> >> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing >> list. >> >> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a >> >> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. >> >> > >> >> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the sam= e >> >> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the >> >> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-b= e number, >> >> > cluster number, sender, and date. >> >> > >> >> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from >> archival, >> >> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t= envision >> >> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensiti= ve >> >> > information needs to be shared. >> >> > >> >> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text >> about >> >> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this >> announcement, >> >> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we >> set >> >> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to >> this >> >> > thread by 24 March 2022. >> >> > >> >> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > IETF-Announce mailing list >> >> > IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> rfc-interest mailing list >> >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >> > --000000000000bbf79f05d8dacd9e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 4:59 PM Eric Rescorla= <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Francesca = Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi all,

=C2=A0

I am monitoring the discussion, listening to t= he feedback, and hope to answer to all comments later on.

=C2=A0

Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separ= ate mailing list was also the proposal, I am trying to understand the diffe= rence with Ekr=E2=80=99s suggestion.

If I understand correctly, the difference with= what Ekr is suggesting is that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for = each AUTH48 conversation, is that the idea? This was discussed, but the sam= e sort of subscribing and filtering can be achieved locally even with one si= ngle list, and would require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure = I see the interest of setting it up that way.


No, I'm suggesting that it doesn't go to = the main WG mailing list. I am indifferent to whether it is a single list f= or all AUTH48 communications for a WG or one for each RFC.

What I don't think we should do is just change the setup for e= ach WG mailing list so that suddenly everyone gets the AUTH48 stuff whether= they care or not, thus forcing most of those people to set up filters to f= ilter it out.

I see I misrepresented you = in my mail to Francesca.=C2=A0 I thought you were proposing to do it by WG,= rather than by draft.=C2=A0 To me, that's the natural unit of review h= ere.=C2=A0 That's why I initially suggested using the WG mailing list, = and why I would be fine with setting up a per WG AUTH48 list as a separate = list.

=
That is, in an= y case, what I now suggest.

regards,

Ted Har= die


=C2=A0
<= div>

-Ekr

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks,
Francesca

=C2=A0

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ted Har= die <ted.ietf@gm= ail.com>
Date: Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, admin-discuss@ietf.org <admin-discuss@ietf.org>,= IETF <ietf@ietf.org<= /a>>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, irtf-announce@irtf.org &l= t;irtf-announce= @irtf.org>, IETF Announcement List <ietf-= announce@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications=

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2= :19 PM Eric Rescorla <= ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the W= G list would be a mistake.
>
> In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about sma= ll details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I = am on.
>
> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe = to.
>
> -Ekr
>
This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way
the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them.
There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as<= br> to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list.
I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same<= br> here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers.

regards,

Ted Hardie


>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously.=C2=A0 = I
>> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementati= on:
>> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions.= =C2=A0 That
>> keeps the information related to a single document in a common pla= ce,
>> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than = it
>> would be if it were in a dedicated list.=C2=A0 While your proposal= is
>> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested
>> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if t= here
>> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discuss= ions
>> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions.<= br> >>
>> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working<= br> >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since = those
>> lists are not read only.=C2=A0 You can avoid them doing so directl= y by
>> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only addr= ess
>> which does not receive mail.*=C2=A0 That would not stop a mailing = list
>> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but y= our
>> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either.
>>
>> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponso= red
>> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list.
>>
>> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow<= br> >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily<= br> >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different ne= eds.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Ted Hardie
>>
>> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives y= ou a
>> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information = that
>> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links= to
>> the RFCs-to-be.=C2=A0 If you do not choose this implementation, yo= u may
>> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archive= d
>> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >> advance of actual publication.=C2=A0 Since some AUTH48 issues take= a fair
>> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amou= nt
>> of cruft.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our comm= itment to
>> > making all materials related to our standards process and oth= er
>> > activities publicly available.
>> >
>> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream,= most of
>> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - fro= m the first
>> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. Howeve= r, once the
>> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication betwe= en authors
>> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific= set of
>> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chai= rs (when
>> > applicable).
>> >
>> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of = document
>> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Proje= ct Manager,
>> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search= and read
>> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of=
>> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people = in the
>> > conversation between authors and RFC editors.
>> >
>> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conve= rsations,
>> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors,= when
>> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mai= ling list.
>> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and = as a
>> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.
>> >
>> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on t= he same
>> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based = on the
>> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RF= C-to-be number,
>> > cluster number, sender, and date.
>> >
>> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from= archival,
>> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2= =80=99t envision
>> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where s= ensitive
>> > information needs to be shared.
>> >
>> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include= text about
>> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this an= nouncement,
>> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback befo= re we set
>> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this
>> > thread by 24 March 2022.
>> >
>> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > IETF-Announce mailing list
>> > I= ETF-Announce@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>> _______________________________________________
>> rfc-interest mailing list
>> r= fc-interest@rfc-editor.org
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-intere= st

--000000000000bbf79f05d8dacd9e-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 09:33:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6AB33A0E6D for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:33:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S-AHsDjzwwNt for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 049783A0C25 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id c23so7326594ioi.4 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:32:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QoP3QpNjeHCgGdNxVSjLxGc9v2JCkLH7cWIJx/WwfZE=; b=AMOki7mRxE7Ob+c7JJrS00CJ1aYKsk/+1S1ktwX/VQMsfAQzHKNK6Q9K02ZN0tuETt z0ZVPRUjNvafLN3nJHrsKlre7hT83oUI7vovnF7Gdas2DLtInMEmQCUGilBAtlabCKdv KEJdiTgrWg4F3+1Exu7wxsiP39TwqJmIrEkYLTJE2UOFEj9n6OVaZjb5Kz00WzjRCJUX JOL0plz1TKS6K6GfD1bvxzyJq912qVaRv40935sm48mwvTQulF0a3h47f1s/RA5tsjYb Ujan4YtDU5R7gucYmVg15cNqYiXphlBFCgetfzhVf2EhY8DXil3VN+DLXXMDHcIA3h1U n+rg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QoP3QpNjeHCgGdNxVSjLxGc9v2JCkLH7cWIJx/WwfZE=; b=n3Zv08UgfCm27T1QoQxhJQnQ5lEOsnv+lRC+plm6RWaByKDTwkuU9t+uSE/+8FNIKg zzGGOPbPINXWRyVd5awH7kCJaxe119ljiuhqCQqWGTkkjUSXEVTXTY2mQePqb27CzsSX i3knftA78pF8cCeViDotDk+4TKMTVA91z37kjy32xaJXp11Lyqed1hQA7SLstIvTTduX UnC3Y0XT+kGOxLtLEhtzRIBVaL6EyqG8yRkROkk5cVFUrs7PFDyP/vvgqp2qRP/2E7ts emuzzCJWZ3ClTJ/fKyt/b7O/BK6wOFOZJvVlvMbjooWtGNbVNhQ49ckEDqWwXIKTBhvk zJoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530KIAYPh6xqAc31B1QV5uf5lVPbrAAx2UCtE7G2fMhVMJ04OZUZ F+wvbPkvAwRBzWYrn0QElrUG+Q/a7UGXjteaNiBq6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzOZ4g5E4uCj+11f8Cp3iYavQFv1Qb7NdfVwN3ZWn3dW2UzTHg7lAAYfZYnHWtliiUZzBcvVpLhjRYZVPp2oz8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:dc5:b0:313:f8bd:35a7 with SMTP id m5-20020a0566380dc500b00313f8bd35a7mr6721834jaj.75.1645810377718; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:32:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:32:21 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ted Hardie Cc: Francesca Palombini , Working Group Chairs , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , IETF , RFC Interest , IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee974f05d8db1681" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 17:33:06 -0000 --000000000000ee974f05d8db1681 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 9:12 AM Ted Hardie wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 4:59 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Francesca Palombini < >> francesca.palombini@ericsson.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am monitoring the discussion, listening to the feedback, and hope to >>> answer to all comments later on. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separate mailing list was also >>> the proposal, I am trying to understand the difference with Ekr=E2=80= =99s >>> suggestion. >>> >>> If I understand correctly, the difference with what Ekr is suggesting i= s >>> that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for each AUTH48 conversatio= n, >>> is that the idea? This was discussed, but the same sort of subscribing = and >>> filtering can be achieved locally even with one single list, and would >>> require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure I see the interes= t of >>> setting it up that way. >>> >> >> No, I'm suggesting that it doesn't go to the main WG mailing list. I am >> indifferent to whether it is a single list for all AUTH48 communications >> for a WG or one for each RFC. >> >> What I don't think we should do is just change the setup for each WG >> mailing list so that suddenly everyone gets the AUTH48 stuff whether the= y >> care or not, thus forcing most of those people to set up filters to filt= er >> it out. >> > > I see I misrepresented you in my mail to Francesca. I thought you were > proposing to do it by WG, rather than by draft. > I'm not sure you misrepresented me. I honestly hadn't thought through the WG-versus-draft units. To me, that's the natural unit of review here. That's why I initially > suggested using the WG mailing list, and why I would be fine with setting > up a per WG AUTH48 list as a separate list. > > That is, in any case, what I now suggest. > This sounds like a good plan. I wonder if the new subscription interface could easily give people the choice to make that decision en masse. -Ekr > > regards, > > Ted Hardie > > > > >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Francesca >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *iesg on behalf of Ted Hardie < >>> ted.ietf@gmail.com> >>> *Date: *Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15 >>> *To: *Eric Rescorla >>> *Cc: *Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org = < >>> admin-discuss@ietf.org>, IETF , RFC Interest < >>> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG , >>> irtf-announce@irtf.org , IETF Announcement List >>> >>> *Subject: *Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> > >>> > While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the >>> WG list would be a mistake. >>> > >>> > In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about >>> small details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG = list >>> I am on. >>> > >>> > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. >>> > >>> > -Ekr >>> > >>> This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way >>> the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them. >>> There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as >>> to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list. >>> I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same >>> here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers. >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Ted Hardie >>> >>> >>> > >>> > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I >>> >> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation= : >>> >> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That >>> >> keeps the information related to a single document in a common place= , >>> >> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it >>> >> would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is >>> >> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested >>> >> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if the= re >>> >> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussio= ns >>> >> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. >>> >> >>> >> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working >>> >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those >>> >> lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by >>> >> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only addres= s >>> >> which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list >>> >> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but you= r >>> >> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. >>> >> >>> >> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsore= d >>> >> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. >>> >> >>> >> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow >>> >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily >>> >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different need= s. >>> >> >>> >> regards, >>> >> >>> >> Ted Hardie >>> >> >>> >> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you= a >>> >> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information th= at >>> >> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links t= o >>> >> the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may >>> >> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived >>> >> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >>> >> advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair >>> >> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount >>> >> of cruft. >>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >>> >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our commitmen= t >>> to >>> >> > making all materials related to our standards process and other >>> >> > activities publicly available. >>> >> > >>> >> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most >>> of >>> >> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the >>> first >>> >> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, >>> once the >>> >> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between >>> authors >>> >> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set = of >>> >> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs >>> (when >>> >> > applicable). >>> >> > >>> >> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of >>> document >>> >> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project >>> Manager, >>> >> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and >>> read >>> >> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of >>> >> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in th= e >>> >> > conversation between authors and RFC editors. >>> >> > >>> >> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 >>> conversations, >>> >> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when >>> >> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing >>> list. >>> >> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a >>> >> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. >>> >> > >>> >> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the sa= me >>> >> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on th= e >>> >> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-= be number, >>> >> > cluster number, sender, and date. >>> >> > >>> >> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from >>> archival, >>> >> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99= t envision >>> >> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where >>> sensitive >>> >> > information needs to be shared. >>> >> > >>> >> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text >>> about >>> >> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this >>> announcement, >>> >> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we >>> set >>> >> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to >>> this >>> >> > thread by 24 March 2022. >>> >> > >>> >> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > IETF-Announce mailing list >>> >> > IETF-Announce@ietf.org >>> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> rfc-interest mailing list >>> >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >>> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >>> >> --000000000000ee974f05d8db1681 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 9:12 AM Ted H= ardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:

On= Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 4:59 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Francesca Palombini <= franc= esca.palombini@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi all,

=C2=A0

I am monitoring the discussion, listening to t= he feedback, and hope to answer to all comments later on.

=C2=A0

Ted: Just a clarification question. As a separ= ate mailing list was also the proposal, I am trying to understand the diffe= rence with Ekr=E2=80=99s suggestion.

If I understand correctly, the difference with= what Ekr is suggesting is that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for = each AUTH48 conversation, is that the idea? This was discussed, but the sam= e sort of subscribing and filtering can be achieved locally even with one si= ngle list, and would require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure = I see the interest of setting it up that way.


No, I'm suggesting that it doesn't go to = the main WG mailing list. I am indifferent to whether it is a single list f= or all AUTH48 communications for a WG or one for each RFC.

What I don't think we should do is just change the setup for e= ach WG mailing list so that suddenly everyone gets the AUTH48 stuff whether= they care or not, thus forcing most of those people to set up filters to f= ilter it out.

I see I misrepresented you in my mail to Francesca.= =C2=A0 I thought you were proposing to do it by WG, rather than by draft.= =C2=A0

I'm not = sure you misrepresented me. I honestly hadn't thought through the WG-ve= rsus-draft units.


To me, that's the natural unit of rev= iew here.=C2=A0 That's why I initially suggested using the WG mailing l= ist, and why I would be fine with setting up a per WG AUTH48 list as a sepa= rate list.

That is, in any case, what I now suggest.

This sounds like a good plan.= I wonder if the new subscription interface could easily give people the ch= oice to make that decision en masse.

-Ekr
=C2=A0

regards,

Ted Hardie


=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0
<= div lang=3D"EN-GB">

<= /p>

=C2=A0

Thanks,
Francesca

=C2=A0

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ted Har= die <ted.ietf@gm= ail.com>
Date: Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, admin-discuss@ietf.org <admin-discuss@ietf.org>,= IETF <ietf@ietf.org<= /a>>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, irtf-announce@irtf.org &l= t;irtf-announce= @irtf.org>, IETF Announcement List <ietf-= announce@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications=

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2= :19 PM Eric Rescorla <= ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the W= G list would be a mistake.
>
> In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about sma= ll details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I = am on.
>
> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe = to.
>
> -Ekr
>
This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way
the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them.
There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as<= br> to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list.
I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same<= br> here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers.

regards,

Ted Hardie


>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously.=C2=A0 = I
>> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementati= on:
>> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions.= =C2=A0 That
>> keeps the information related to a single document in a common pla= ce,
>> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than = it
>> would be if it were in a dedicated list.=C2=A0 While your proposal= is
>> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested
>> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if t= here
>> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discuss= ions
>> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions.<= br> >>
>> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working<= br> >> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since = those
>> lists are not read only.=C2=A0 You can avoid them doing so directl= y by
>> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only addr= ess
>> which does not receive mail.*=C2=A0 That would not stop a mailing = list
>> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but y= our
>> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either.
>>
>> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponso= red
>> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list.
>>
>> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow<= br> >> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily<= br> >> coordinating them with other streams which might have different ne= eds.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Ted Hardie
>>
>> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives y= ou a
>> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information = that
>> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links= to
>> the RFCs-to-be.=C2=A0 If you do not choose this implementation, yo= u may
>> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archive= d
>> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >> advance of actual publication.=C2=A0 Since some AUTH48 issues take= a fair
>> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amou= nt
>> of cruft.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> > communication, with one of our core principles being our comm= itment to
>> > making all materials related to our standards process and oth= er
>> > activities publicly available.
>> >
>> > For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream,= most of
>> > its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - fro= m the first
>> > submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. Howeve= r, once the
>> > document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication betwe= en authors
>> > and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific= set of
>> > people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chai= rs (when
>> > applicable).
>> >
>> > In order to increase transparency during the final stages of = document
>> > editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Proje= ct Manager,
>> > RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search= and read
>> > AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of=
>> > documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people = in the
>> > conversation between authors and RFC editors.
>> >
>> > Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conve= rsations,
>> > for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors,= when
>> > initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mai= ling list.
>> > All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and = as a
>> > consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.
>> >
>> > All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on t= he same
>> > mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based = on the
>> > mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RF= C-to-be number,
>> > cluster number, sender, and date.
>> >
>> > Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from= archival,
>> > by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2= =80=99t envision
>> > that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where s= ensitive
>> > information needs to be shared.
>> >
>> > The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include= text about
>> > public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this an= nouncement,
>> > the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback befo= re we set
>> > anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this
>> > thread by 24 March 2022.
>> >
>> > Francesca Palombini for the IESG
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > IETF-Announce mailing list
>> > I= ETF-Announce@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>> _______________________________________________
>> rfc-interest mailing list
>> r= fc-interest@rfc-editor.org
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-intere= st

--000000000000ee974f05d8db1681-- From nobody Fri Feb 25 09:35:57 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C5F3A1072; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:35:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e4jaCdgfX8Ia; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 289793A1036; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 09:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K4xkX690tzDCbY; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 18:35:32 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3A683FB7-0EF5-48BA-94BC-48AC28BDF6FE@kuehlewind.net> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 18:35:32 +0100 Cc: Working Group Chairs , Eric Rescorla , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IESG , Ted Hardie X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 667503332.483745-b220923f4f5b7e5e5623d3990b57f538 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <9FF5FC17-C2A8-44B9-B5BA-DEECD3CD8B16@tzi.org> <3A683FB7-0EF5-48BA-94BC-48AC28BDF6FE@kuehlewind.net> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 17:35:44 -0000 On 2022-02-25, at 16:58, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >=20 > Just one small comment below. >=20 >> On 25. Feb 2022, at 16:46, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> On 2022-02-25, at 15:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>=20 >>> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe = to. >>=20 >> Doubles the number of lists I need to subscribe to. >=20 > But you don=E2=80=99t have to subscribe to any new list. I=E2=80=99d have to so I can make timely use of the transparency = functionality proposed. (I=E2=80=99d actually use the IETF=E2=80=99s IMAP server directly = instead of an SMTP subscription, but I=E2=80=99d still need to do this a = large number of times.) > Those people who get the AUTH48 mails today would still get them = directly - so now change needed. Understood. > The intend is actually that people won=E2=80=99t subscribe to the list = but only can use the archives to look up anything if needed. After the damage is done? Sure, that is useful, but being informed in = real-time so damage can be prevented is more useful. > Of course we can=E2=80=99t stop anybody from subscribing but that is = really not the intention here. It sure would be mine. 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Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:53:02 +0000 To: Eric Rescorla , Francesca Palombini References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: Working Group Chairs , IETF , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , RFC Interest , IESG , "irtf-announce@irtf.org" , IETF Announcement List From: tom petch Message-ID: <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:52:52 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: LO4P123CA0485.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:1a8::22) To VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: b6d7e522-e424-4eee-60ec-08d9f926eb7c X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: PR1PR07MB4924:EE_ X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: /gTxliM25kZnB1eUgS7eVhH5q8IuoevRHqnJbifvvEUesG3zXOEe637+nTFHVMv3sX7DmwWgRAtHsLfBefzaHdxNuvRB7MiRKHKUREXpY8ib6epEzWqvFZ1SsCav+3+4NVnSBaKqWiBWERkU/W1YvvPbU0vYEcM5xSu1STUlo57naLpmWlzUgKC/XvbiOyY2zIdp2qzCVydKaZKNLcwYO9OFTW4Tg7ZHrCDHmW9+WZ9xsGPOIlS+kKak/38Eog6aLEjj1p7daPTtmPfW8Z5Bl9eQ4T4xkNgvOiLyfStBbWP+F00lqw30kAMZDJZgiwAO9lZvfClizywe2EmIuTXl0ovP9tPl4nZO6lvpwtAayC4t6Q+WtFjKjU7xHIFfJAX8pEYvKW0Jq1q/iZFh/mYIrjcg4yU/lCy/64bgO4gMmChH9TYuQHRKWFibE6FE9ye7keZ55fdiFAHNYiL8nlgACFdAih5b1GBPz6ww1THNZbEbb7VMpKuWi9+MEvWv/z7PWmbqA5moxpCVCIRG02J6AgEuCVFcgwxThjV3OJ0QZUg2Wrz/+DGIEN4/dIVc5UxKUmNhr9Eu0tUJeJjdIyYyE6PGpWqpJyf2CU16RRQNzpjyfCPFEYhRm4qEVTTM9vRoVGXVwLEBC1e01ccYmjN+9N46swz4/3Gw+QMY6E6qvpdXNkxnqPa9gRQQL/vBIiFXHHHesTWy+4mR8CpO0ZUZ3mrmG8uzD/w7yayuPAYH7gN+Qun1CDplYUwcS6seDB2ECS36jdPJkRDzbo7WhDoaOuuhZqbx3A8zKza9HTb+uxhCjPALgo9XzYTqhM09WkQ/hbV2jkUjSC227sVWKfuAoRH54xU+QQlSi4gCW6Iz82A= X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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As a separate mailing list was also >> the proposal, I am trying to understand the difference with Ekr’s >> suggestion. >> >> If I understand correctly, the difference with what Ekr is suggesting is >> that there would be one AUTH48 mailing list for each AUTH48 conversation, >> is that the idea? This was discussed, but the same sort of subscribing and >> filtering can be achieved locally even with one single list, and would >> require less tooling and RPC change, so I am not sure I see the interest of >> setting it up that way. >> > > No, I'm suggesting that it doesn't go to the main WG mailing list. I am > indifferent to whether it is a single list for all AUTH48 communications > for a WG or one for each RFC. > > What I don't think we should do is just change the setup for each WG > mailing list so that suddenly everyone gets the AUTH48 stuff whether they > care or not, thus forcing most of those people to set up filters to filter > it out. Communicate, communicate, communicate. Tell people what is happening before it happens, identify what actions people are likely to take and suggest how they might do take them. The IETF failed to do this when AD comments at IESG Review started appearing on WG mailing lists. I completely misunderstood the situation which, in hindsight, was a predictable outcome. Seeing those comments has been instructive if only in helping WG members fix things so that the IESG do not have to, but the change was poorly managed. Of course, as a recent analysis showed, most people are not on this list and so will not know of this important change. Tom Petch > > -Ekr > > > >> >> >> Thanks, >> Francesca >> >> >> >> *From: *iesg on behalf of Ted Hardie < >> ted.ietf@gmail.com> >> *Date: *Friday, 25 February 2022 at 16:15 >> *To: *Eric Rescorla >> *Cc: *Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org < >> admin-discuss@ietf.org>, IETF , RFC Interest < >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IESG , irtf-announce@irtf.org >> , IETF Announcement List >> *Subject: *Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications >> >> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through the WG >> list would be a mistake. >>> >>> In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth about small >> details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG list I am >> on. >>> >>> I don't object to a separate list that WG members could subscribe to. >>> >>> -Ekr >>> >> This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the way >> the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use them. >> There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your choice as >> to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG list. >> I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the same >> here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers. >> >> regards, >> >> Ted Hardie >> >> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:51 AM Ted Hardie wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for considering the transparency question seriously. I >>>> believe, however, that you are missing a more obvious implementation: >>>> cc'ing the working group mailing lists for AUTH48 discussions. That >>>> keeps the information related to a single document in a common place, >>>> which makes it easier to actually follow the threads of work than it >>>> would be if it were in a dedicated list. While your proposal is >>>> publicly archived, that approach would require any interested >>>> individual to grovel through the archives periodically to see if there >>>> were anything of interest, which makes it easy to miss the discussions >>>> and more difficult to link back to the working group discussions. >>>> >>>> You may be concerned that this approach would lead to the working >>>> groups' members jumping into the last call discussions, since those >>>> lists are not read only. You can avoid them doing so directly by >>>> channeling the AUTH48 mail to the mailing through a send-only address >>>> which does not receive mail.* That would not stop a mailing list >>>> member from reaching out to one of the parties individually, but your >>>> proposed implementation doesn't stop that either. >>>> >>>> If an IETF document does not have a working group (as an AD-sponsored >>>> document might not), then the mail could go to the area list. >>>> >>>> Since this approach would be specific to the IETF, it would allow >>>> later tweaks to be done directly by the IESG, without necessarily >>>> coordinating them with other streams which might have different needs. >>>> >>>> regards, >>>> >>>> Ted Hardie >>>> >>>> *Passing them through a send-only address also potentially gives you a >>>> step in which to process them so as to elide specific information that >>>> you might not want to share early, such as the RFC number or links to >>>> the RFCs-to-be. If you do not choose this implementation, you may >>>> still want to consider whether those details belong in the archived >>>> list, since references to the RFC number may otherwise appear in >>>> advance of actual publication. Since some AUTH48 issues take a fair >>>> amount of time to resolve, that can actually result in a fair amount >>>> of cruft. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:25 PM The IESG wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >>>>> communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to >>>>> making all materials related to our standards process and other >>>>> activities publicly available. >>>>> >>>>> For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of >>>>> its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the >> first >>>>> submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once >> the >>>>> document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between >> authors >>>>> and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of >>>>> people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when >>>>> applicable). >>>>> >>>>> In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document >>>>> editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project >> Manager, >>>>> RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read >>>>> AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of >>>>> documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the >>>>> conversation between authors and RFC editors. >>>>> >>>>> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, >>>>> for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when >>>>> initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing >> list. >>>>> All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a >>>>> consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. >>>>> >>>>> All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same >>>>> mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the >>>>> mails’ content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be number, >>>>> cluster number, sender, and date. >>>>> >>>>> Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from >> archival, >>>>> by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don’t envision >>>>> that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive >>>>> information needs to be shared. >>>>> >>>>> The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text >> about >>>>> public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this >> announcement, >>>>> the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set >>>>> anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to >> this >>>>> thread by 24 March 2022. >>>>> >>>>> Francesca Palombini for the IESG >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> IETF-Announce mailing list >>>>> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rfc-interest mailing list >>>> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > From nobody Sat Feb 26 08:54:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5923A0892; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 08:54:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ARbYFayz3ppf; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 08:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 633DE3A0889; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 08:54:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nO0KW-0003G5-5c; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:54:00 -0500 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:53:54 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: "HANSEN, TONY L" cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , IESG , irtf-announce@irtf.org, IETF Announcement List Message-ID: <8129A65C40CD88E0B5C94AA8@PSB> In-Reply-To: <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:54:10 -0000 TL;DR comment: for those who don't like my long notes, skip to the bullet points that make up the final paragraph - they should tell you whether the rest is worth reading. --On Friday, February 25, 2022 16:37 +0000 "HANSEN, TONY L" wrote: > Perhaps there should be an auth48 mailing list per working > group? It would be used for all auth48 interactions associated > with the docs for that WG. When a doc from a WG enters auth48, > a note would be sent to the WG indicating the location of that > working group mailing list. Non-WG auth48 interactions could > use a single non-WG mailing list. > > I think this would satisfy both Ted's and Ekr's preferences. > (Mine too. :) ) > > Advantages: > > *) Separates the auth48 traffic away from the working group. > *) Separates the auth48 traffic for one WG from all other > auth48 traffic. > *) Reduces the number of mailing lists that need to be managed. > *) The mailing list could be moderated to > only allow the auth48 authors (and RPC) to post to it, and > only while their documents are in that state. > *) Allows someone who wants to follow the auth48 traffic for that WG to > do so. > *) Doesn't force someone (who is interested in > following the auth48 traffic for a given set of WGs) from > seeing the back and forth for ALL WGs. > > I think the last two bullets are particularly important. Hi. I have tried to review this very active discussion up to now. Tony's note seems --not quite arbitrarily-- to be a useful choice on which to base a response but I want to go up a level. First, it is hard to oppose transparency and I don't want to go there. I've also been concerned for years that decisions are sometimes made during AUTH48 that affect the substantive content of documents without people who care about those documents having any visibility. So I'm very glad the IESG is engaging on the issue. However, I wonder whether the wrong question is being asked and suggest that much of this thread points that out. >From my perspective, the problem is not that the AUTH48 discussions --which, as has been pointed out, are typically about more or less fine points of style and presentation-- but about making sure that substantive content changes are appropriately reviewed. In a more perfect world, we would be able to count on ADs and WG Chairs to identify the point at which substantive changes were being requested and either get an intermediate I-D back to the relevant WG list or even restart a Last Call. That is presumably the reason why ADs, and then WG Chairs, and then Shepherds were added to the per-document AUTH48 distributions. That has no worked as well as I would have liked but YMMD. If the IESG shares that concern, can we look at that problem rather than simply appealing to transparency and, in the process, doing things that make the IETF's S/N and substantive technical progress to procedural work ratios even worse? So: (1) If we are going to do more or less what has been proposed, I think Tony's summary of what should be done is about right, and agree that the last two points are critical. (2) However, if the real target is better documents and fewer surprises about substantive changes, consider one or more of the following other possibilities, ones that, btw, would also work for non-WG documents without assuming that all of them are the same: (a) When a document goes into AUTH48, post an announcement of that event to the Last-Call list (on the theory that final document review is really part of the Last Call process). Allow anyone who is so inclined to subscribe to the AUTH48 discussion for that document but with the understanding that they are observing, not participating, and that, if they have issues, they should raise them off-list with authors and/or ADs as appropriate. I don't think we need special tooling for the latter: if this it the professional community we claim it is, most of the people will behave almost all of the time and, someone becomes disruptive, the IESG has more than adequate tools for dealing with that. (b) Instead of making a general announcement on the Last-Call list, make a similar announcement to the WG (if any) and to anyone who commented on that document during Last Call (including IESG review) and thereby identified their interest. That would reduce traffic on the Last-Call list and potential reduce noise but would require more tooling. (c) Decide that we don't really care about the internals of the AUTH48 discussion process and instead treat it as much more like a design team effort at the back end of the process. Instead, when a document has been signed off by everyone who now has to sign off (or earlier at their discretion), have the RPC post notice of availability of a final pre-publication RFC to the Last Call list (or, in a variation on (b), to those who are assumed to be interested). If they have a diff readily available between that "final" version and an initial version in RFC (rather than I-D) format, include a link to that too. That is a notice, no a request for further comments. Anyone who objects to publication based on changes between the version officially approved by the IESG uses the conventional appeals process (possibly with a much shorter window, like a week or ten days) to ask for a review based on those changes exceeding the mandate of the AUTH48 process. If the IESG agrees that the appeal has merit, they (at least normally) start a new Last Call on the revised document rather than trying to tinker within an extension of the AUTH48 process. Result of (c): * No more mailing lists. * No more noise due to either traffic that most people are not interested in most of the time or to trying to extricate important issues from a large amount of traffic that isn't. * Reduces, if not completely preventing, the whole community from being drawn into debates about fine points of editorial style. * Possibly gets more people to pay attention to the question of whether a document that is about to be published is really consistent with the one about which the community reached consensus (something I do not believe exposing the AUTH48 correspondence will accomplish nearly as well if at all). And * Encouraging those who are already part of the AUTH48 process -- authors, ADs, WG Chairs, shepherds, etc.(?) -- to take more responsibility for saying "hey, this is departing too much from the original document, let's pause and go back to the community" in a timely way, both because it is The Right Thing and because it would avoid the overhead and delays associated with appeals. thanks for reading. john From nobody Sat Feb 26 09:43:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68053A0B48; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:42:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ViwWsLfRp58Q; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80D163A0ABA; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K5YrJ27hvzDCbx; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 18:42:40 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <8129A65C40CD88E0B5C94AA8@PSB> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 18:42:39 +0100 Cc: "HANSEN, TONY L" , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , IESG X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 667590159.880187-cfbd5bdc2ecb7266b4521ec42d7cd2d9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7BC3F808-434B-48CF-B96B-0CF7D8B9F3A7@tzi.org> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> <8129A65C40CD88E0B5C94AA8@PSB> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 17:43:03 -0000 On 2022-02-26, at 17:53, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > I have tried to review this very active discussion up to > now. =20 I=E2=80=99m starting to understand that this discussion is a great dress = rehearsal for how RSWG will operate. Maybe we can take the opportunity and kick off the experiment proposed = by the IESG now and go into the greater discussions once RSWG is = operational. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Feb 26 09:51:00 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585DF3A0A48; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:50:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cCSLhkUGaIoL; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC9B93A0A3C; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nO1DE-0003KX-1u; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:50:32 -0500 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:50:26 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Carsten Bormann cc: "HANSEN, TONY L" , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , IESG Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7BC3F808-434B-48CF-B96B-0CF7D8B9F3A7@tzi.org> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> <8129A65C40CD88E0B5C94AA8@PSB> <7BC3F808-434B-48CF-B96B-0CF7D8B9F3A7@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 17:50:43 -0000 --On Saturday, February 26, 2022 18:42 +0100 Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2022-02-26, at 17:53, John C Klensin > wrote: >> >> I have tried to review this very active discussion up to >> now. > > I'm starting to understand that this discussion is a great > dress rehearsal for how RSWG will operate. > > Maybe we can take the opportunity and kick off the experiment > proposed by the IESG now and go into the greater discussions > once RSWG is operational. Or maybe we postpone spending energy on new lists and tooling -- both of which tend to create inertia for keeping "experiments" -- until the RSAB/RSWG are in place and, since AUTH48 is really part of the RFC Production process, allow them to define and oversee the experiment along with the IESG. Hmm. That has been proposed before, so this suggestion probably adds to the reasons for taking that path. Probably the informal guidance to the IESG right now should be that, with the new RFC Editor Model being so close to completion, making _any_ changes that could impact the RFC Editor Function should be deferred until the new processes are in places unless they are needed to deal with clear emergencies. john From nobody Sat Feb 26 09:55:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD1F3A0A6F; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qprT_Pfs54Ce; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A380F3A0A65; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0288868.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0288868.ppops.net-00191d01. 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <2C77761DC8272A46B783960A9554B437@namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CH2PR02MB6554.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: be1f7fdb-712c-4213-f10d-08d9f9513245 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Feb 2022 17:55:38.0278 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: leTHY6sbG7Qhep8Xt1HnP1bMfzoW0D/dmIStdpQll+KNMw8PS0tqpMxTdyv3OFjM X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR0201MB3561 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 96F0DC0F7014295296D2F853BC1279A1F683597D8640063F5D03385218820C1E2 X-Proofpoint-GUID: HVnSODUH3aw0KGq0vn436DeESyu_9fYC X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: HVnSODUH3aw0KGq0vn436DeESyu_9fYC X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.64.514 definitions=2022-02-26_03,2022-02-25_01,2022-02-23_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 clxscore=1011 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=867 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202260129 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 17:55:55 -0000 KzEgdG8gZGVmZXJyaW5nIGNoYW5nZXMgdGhhdCBjb3VsZCBpbXBhY3QgdGhlIFJGQyBFZGl0b3Ig RnVuY3Rpb24NCg0KCVRvbnkNCg0K77u/T24gMi8yNi8yMDIyLCAxMjo1MCBQTSwgIkpvaG4gQyBL bGVuc2luIiA8am9obi1pZXRmQGpjay5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQoNCg0KICAgIC0tT24gU2F0dXJk YXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDI2LCAyMDIyIDE4OjQyICswMTAwIENhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubg0KICAgIDxj YWJvQHR6aS5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgPiBPbiAyMDIyLTAyLTI2LCBhdCAxNzo1MywgSm9o biBDIEtsZW5zaW4gPGpvaG4taWV0ZkBqY2suY29tPg0KICAgID4gd3JvdGU6DQogICAgPj4gDQog ICAgPj4gSSBoYXZlIHRyaWVkIHRvIHJldmlldyB0aGlzIHZlcnkgYWN0aXZlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24g dXAgdG8NCiAgICA+PiBub3cuICANCiAgICA+IA0KICAgID4gSSdtIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHRvIHVuZGVy c3RhbmQgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gaXMgYSBncmVhdA0KICAgID4gZHJlc3MgcmVoZWFy c2FsIGZvciBob3cgUlNXRyB3aWxsIG9wZXJhdGUuDQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+IE1heWJlIHdlIGNh biB0YWtlIHRoZSBvcHBvcnR1bml0eSBhbmQga2ljayBvZmYgdGhlIGV4cGVyaW1lbnQNCiAgICA+ IHByb3Bvc2VkIGJ5IHRoZSBJRVNHIG5vdyBhbmQgZ28gaW50byB0aGUgZ3JlYXRlciBkaXNjdXNz aW9ucw0KICAgID4gb25jZSBSU1dHIGlzIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsLg0KDQogICAgT3IgbWF5YmUgd2Ug cG9zdHBvbmUgc3BlbmRpbmcgZW5lcmd5IG9uIG5ldyBsaXN0cyBhbmQgdG9vbGluZyAtLQ0KICAg IGJvdGggb2Ygd2hpY2ggdGVuZCB0byBjcmVhdGUgaW5lcnRpYSBmb3Iga2VlcGluZyAiZXhwZXJp bWVudHMiDQogICAgLS0gdW50aWwgdGhlIFJTQUIvUlNXRyBhcmUgaW4gcGxhY2UgYW5kLCBzaW5j ZSBBVVRINDggaXMgcmVhbGx5DQogICAgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgUkZDIFByb2R1Y3Rpb24gcHJvY2Vz cywgYWxsb3cgdGhlbSB0byBkZWZpbmUgYW5kDQogICAgb3ZlcnNlZSB0aGUgZXhwZXJpbWVudCBh bG9uZyB3aXRoIHRoZSBJRVNHLg0KDQogICAgSG1tLiAgVGhhdCBoYXMgYmVlbiBwcm9wb3NlZCBi ZWZvcmUsIHNvIHRoaXMgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBwcm9iYWJseQ0KICAgIGFkZHMgdG8gdGhlIHJlYXNv bnMgZm9yIHRha2luZyB0aGF0IHBhdGguICBQcm9iYWJseSB0aGUgaW5mb3JtYWwNCiAgICBndWlk YW5jZSB0byB0aGUgSUVTRyByaWdodCBub3cgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHRoYXQsIHdpdGggdGhlIG5ldyBS RkMNCiAgICBFZGl0b3IgTW9kZWwgYmVpbmcgc28gY2xvc2UgdG8gY29tcGxldGlvbiwgbWFraW5n IF9hbnlfIGNoYW5nZXMNCiAgICB0aGF0IGNvdWxkIGltcGFjdCB0aGUgUkZDIEVkaXRvciBGdW5j dGlvbiBzaG91bGQgYmUgZGVmZXJyZWQNCiAgICB1bnRpbCB0aGUgbmV3IHByb2Nlc3NlcyBhcmUg aW4gcGxhY2VzIHVubGVzcyB0aGV5IGFyZSBuZWVkZWQgdG8NCiAgICBkZWFsIHdpdGggY2xlYXIg ZW1lcmdlbmNpZXMuDQoNCiAgICAgICAgam9obg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Sat Feb 26 12:20:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C943A0CA9; 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([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z10-20020a17090a8b8a00b001b8d20074c8sm12766447pjn.33.2022.02.26.12.19.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:19:29 -0800 (PST) To: John C Klensin , "HANSEN, TONY L" Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , IESG , irtf-announce@irtf.org References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> <8129A65C40CD88E0B5C94AA8@PSB> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <821c154b-9b27-031e-4880-a1f50ee4145c@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 09:19:23 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8129A65C40CD88E0B5C94AA8@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:19:36 -0000 On 27-Feb-22 05:53, John C Klensin wrote: > TL;DR comment: for those who don't like my long notes, skip to > the bullet points that make up the final paragraph - they should > tell you whether the rest is worth reading. It is, and I hope we can discuss the suggestion in para 2) c) in the RSWG. Brian > > > --On Friday, February 25, 2022 16:37 +0000 "HANSEN, TONY L" > wrote: > >> Perhaps there should be an auth48 mailing list per working >> group? It would be used for all auth48 interactions associated >> with the docs for that WG. When a doc from a WG enters auth48, >> a note would be sent to the WG indicating the location of that >> working group mailing list. Non-WG auth48 interactions could >> use a single non-WG mailing list. >> >> I think this would satisfy both Ted's and Ekr's preferences. >> (Mine too. :) ) >> >> Advantages: >> >> *) Separates the auth48 traffic away from the working group. >> *) Separates the auth48 traffic for one WG from all other >> auth48 traffic. >> *) Reduces the number of mailing lists that need to be managed. >> *) The mailing list could be moderated to >> only allow the auth48 authors (and RPC) to post to it, and >> only while their documents are in that state. >> *) Allows someone who wants to follow the auth48 traffic for > that WG to >> do so. >> *) Doesn't force someone (who is interested in >> following the auth48 traffic for a given set of WGs) from >> seeing the back and forth for ALL WGs. >> >> I think the last two bullets are particularly important. > > Hi. I have tried to review this very active discussion up to > now. Tony's note seems --not quite arbitrarily-- to be a useful > choice on which to base a response but I want to go up a level. > > First, it is hard to oppose transparency and I don't want to go > there. I've also been concerned for years that decisions are > sometimes made during AUTH48 that affect the substantive content > of documents without people who care about those documents > having any visibility. So I'm very glad the IESG is engaging on > the issue. However, I wonder whether the wrong question is > being asked and suggest that much of this thread points that out. > >>From my perspective, the problem is not that the AUTH48 > discussions --which, as has been pointed out, are typically > about more or less fine points of style and presentation-- but > about making sure that substantive content changes are > appropriately reviewed. In a more perfect world, we would be > able to count on ADs and WG Chairs to identify the point at > which substantive changes were being requested and either get an > intermediate I-D back to the relevant WG list or even restart a > Last Call. That is presumably the reason why ADs, and then WG > Chairs, and then Shepherds were added to the per-document AUTH48 > distributions. That has no worked as well as I would have liked > but YMMD. If the IESG shares that concern, can we look at that > problem rather than simply appealing to transparency and, in the > process, doing things that make the IETF's S/N and substantive > technical progress to procedural work ratios even worse? > > So: > (1) If we are going to do more or less what has been proposed, I > think Tony's summary of what should be done is about right, and > agree that the last two points are critical. > > (2) However, if the real target is better documents and fewer > surprises about substantive changes, consider one or more of the > following other possibilities, ones that, btw, would also work > for non-WG documents without assuming that all of them are the > same: > > (a) When a document goes into AUTH48, post an announcement of > that event to the Last-Call list (on the theory that final > document review is really part of the Last Call process). > Allow anyone who is so inclined to subscribe to the AUTH48 > discussion for that document but with the understanding that > they are observing, not participating, and that, if they have > issues, they should raise them off-list with authors and/or ADs > as appropriate. I don't think we need special tooling for the > latter: if this it the professional community we claim it is, > most of the people will behave almost all of the time and, > someone becomes disruptive, the IESG has more than adequate > tools for dealing with that. > > (b) Instead of making a general announcement on the Last-Call > list, make a similar announcement to the WG (if any) and to > anyone who commented on that document during Last Call > (including IESG review) and thereby identified their interest. > That would reduce traffic on the Last-Call list and potential > reduce noise but would require more tooling. > > (c) Decide that we don't really care about the internals of the > AUTH48 discussion process and instead treat it as much more like > a design team effort at the back end of the process. Instead, > when a document has been signed off by everyone who now has to > sign off (or earlier at their discretion), have the RPC post > notice of availability of a final pre-publication RFC to the > Last Call list (or, in a variation on (b), to those who are > assumed to be interested). If they have a diff readily > available between that "final" version and an initial version in > RFC (rather than I-D) format, include a link to that too. That > is a notice, no a request for further comments. Anyone who > objects to publication based on changes between the version > officially approved by the IESG uses the conventional appeals > process (possibly with a much shorter window, like a week or ten > days) to ask for a review based on those changes exceeding the > mandate of the AUTH48 process. If the IESG agrees that the > appeal has merit, they (at least normally) start a new Last Call > on the revised document rather than trying to tinker within an > extension of the AUTH48 process. > > Result of (c): > * No more mailing lists. > * No more noise due to either traffic that most people are not > interested in most of the time or to trying to extricate > important issues from a large amount of traffic that isn't. > * Reduces, if not completely preventing, the whole community > from being drawn into debates about fine points of editorial > style. > * Possibly gets more people to pay attention to the question of > whether a document that is about to be published is really > consistent with the one about which the community reached > consensus (something I do not believe exposing the AUTH48 > correspondence will accomplish nearly as well if at all). And > * Encouraging those who are already part of the AUTH48 process > -- authors, ADs, WG Chairs, shepherds, etc.(?) -- to take more > responsibility for saying "hey, this is departing too much from > the original document, let's pause and go back to the community" > in a timely way, both because it is The Right Thing and because > it would avoid the overhead and delays associated with appeals. > > thanks for reading. > john > > > > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > . > From nobody Sat Feb 26 13:58:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134783A07AC; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 13:58:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GeVc52k4gdzX; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 13:58:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18FF13A0122; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 13:58:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [142.169.78.93]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D5F91F448; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 21:58:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id EF7321A0573; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:58:32 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Francesca Palombini , Working Group Chairs , IETF , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , RFC Interest In-reply-to: <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> Comments: In-reply-to tom petch message dated "Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:52:52 +0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <129617.1645912712.1@dooku> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:58:32 -0500 Message-ID: <129618.1645912712@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 21:58:40 -0000 Perhaps we need a 1-minute (physics) video, in the spirit of "A Bill is Just Bill on Capital Hill" to explain the RFC process. From nobody Sat Feb 26 14:07:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D593A07AC; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:07:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hw81aFu8_i5r; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CBF23A079E; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [142.169.78.93]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A318D1F448; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 22:07:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 8C8D01A0573; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 17:07:20 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson to: Francesca Palombini , Working Group Chairs , IETF , "admin-discuss\@ietf.org" , RFC Interest In-reply-to: <129618.1645912712@dooku> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> Comments: In-reply-to Michael Richardson message dated "Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:58:32 -0500." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 17:07:20 -0500 Message-ID: <130138.1645913240@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 22:07:30 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Michael Richardson wrote: > Perhaps we need a 1-minute (physics) video, in the spirit of "A Bill is > Just Bill on Capital Hill" to explain the RFC process. Uhm, I fat fingered the send now button. "I'm just a Bill" The link to go long with this is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgVKvqTItto --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmIapJgACgkQcAKuwszY gEMilgv9EDcDqZXNMLL5I6DRUxAzw4XDTmLYtB9yhRw6z7OARyRj+HnvJc95uWB7 juvqAqYLzDQLWfS9yIzsoLmtEZsbE4cVsZrdYB6sdrH9ofMQvuKeKoETWzrGaai4 RxCY+TSNy3XExc5yR0cLNMc/CXf77FOaPayIvf4Xh8rjByVXg5AGN8OIJh5nA52S Uu5c5OQQKYcc9Zox7rAPsG0itcNsg/LieeKCj0KVOPGFTixzAG1w4CAZ3X4rkfCE wD1yeMdJuwRit35GzRDME3B25YT8Bogl44P7n5OnclAuDy6io8l7UNDvG63d+V2/ AVSahm0qeVDAuwo2/+insWqGAGbbf6BnhgenYmagseMGbahBBqbClLdhBd+MRLof UjM+yHi9kJk0C918+emBefZ3utf1gjLFJHjearLsh6Dnrh2pCOCV1g3yVUQNY/4z MH4vA2GhFrabTDwg6aLaa4+RQxomMx9ZPhDUz5q7eAY933AtLIoyEm2xf8rn8Oq7 pJ9mnb6z =ZlDV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Feb 26 14:21:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0213A07E4; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:21:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QEHB5mEQGxzf; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3DEC3A07E6; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 14:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K5h1n3R0mzDCbW; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 23:21:17 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 23:21:16 +0100 Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, "HANSEN, TONY L" , IETF , RFC Interest , IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> <8129A65C40CD88E0B5C94AA8@PSB> <7BC3F808-434B-48CF-B96B-0CF7D8B9F3A7@tzi.org> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 22:21:26 -0000 >=20 > Or maybe we postpone spending energy on new lists and tooling -- > both of which tend to create inertia for keeping =E2=80=9Cexperiments=E2= =80=9D Wow. I=E2=80=99ll shut up now, but not before pointing out the absurdity. The original proposal by the IESG, as agreed to by the other streams, = was a simple stopgap measure to obtain additional transparency in the = AUTH48 process by an absolutely minimal amount of procedural and = technical change. Create a mailing list, start adding that to the RFC = editor AUTH48 mails. Can be implemented (business sense) in an = afternoon, can be stopped in an afternoon if it breaks in unexpected = ways. Beautiful engineering, and something that doesn=E2=80=99t need to be = flogged to death (also because it already is agreed). Those of us that have been using the AUTH48 process for a couple decades = now know that we need to improve the process on at least two major = fronts: 1 =E2=80=94 giving the authors and the other process participants better = tools, in particular a way to continue to work on AUTH48 with the same = tooling that was used in the WG and IESG segments of the document = development (git and GitHub, domain-specific automation, authoring = tools). 2 =E2=80=94 giving the WG a better stance in the process, without = derailing the process by encouraging relitigating WG dissent during the = completion of an approved document (and without creating further process = steps that impede the improvements usually provided by the RFC editing = process from approved document to RFC). Yes, we should work on these work items in the new structure we are now = creating. These will be multi-year processes, not the least because it will be = hard to achieve continuous improvement in a structure that favors = turning everything into grand endeavors. Which is a great reason to make a small continuous improvement step now. And, by the way, the stopgap would actually be very useful in generating = real-world data that can inform 2. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Feb 26 15:15:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE243A079A; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:15:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZU11clijHpQq; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFFFE3A079C; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nO6HB-0003nJ-98; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 18:14:57 -0500 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 18:14:51 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Michael Richardson , Francesca Palombini , Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <130138.1645913240@dooku> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 23:15:12 -0000 --On Saturday, February 26, 2022 17:07 -0500 Michael Richardson wrote: > > Michael Richardson wrote: > > Perhaps we need a 1-minute (physics) video, in the > spirit of "A Bill is > Just Bill on Capital Hill" to > explain the RFC process. > > Uhm, I fat fingered the send now button. > "I'm just a Bill" > > The link to go long with this is: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgVKvqTItto Would you propose doing that now, after the new Model has settled in enough that one can describe the new process (noting, in particular, that, in case of disputes, the RSE now has a role (and authority) while, in the new model, the RSCE does not unless the whole RSAB gets dragged in). Or would you propose to do it twice? And, while a Bill is Just a Bill on Capital Hill, the different streams, and, in practice, the different treatment of WG and non-WG and Informational and Experimental versus Standards Track documents in the IETF Stream would probably take a lot more than a minute :-) Another argument for deferring this until the RSWG can get into the act? john From nobody Sat Feb 26 15:30:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E13C3A089E; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_FMBLA_NEWDOM=1.498, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GIPbGgkB6PTV; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from server217-1.web-hosting.com (server217-1.web-hosting.com [198.54.114.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F1B83A089A; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:30:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Pc2C6avFJA5Exjg+CUTvpWa0iL9BVCzTmF+oY7jkD4c=; b=pVqSipTtZVIjG+NzezRUQ+ASeW s420NsWX0D5b7hSZpynPjIY02wAZfkKvPxXauspeIHllxNHSLGbWDtxJ+pKuhmsLJm9eISppcbwiu oQlV42ipGGAXCw/A9g1IbSe/o92OTUdBjQlW5I9Qr8lTr7MI0F31/izD0CE/uymGK49pMF95NwSeL jbGrC2kVy9QwRndOCFktumB+QJGwj6FSSX26KpZjtsgxSdBzy7b6iCV5qerwd6aJ1WD+OddsgHhWn jTLlxUgVJJfmLhigBfPXxUOkSEgPHFw1mtQ6rfoN5WqwpTWEsFM08l2liI3ZJ/ugwnyH5hRqb5bAi 99bo19FQ==; Received: from cpe-172-114-237-88.socal.res.rr.com ([172.114.237.88]:55805 helo=smtpclient.apple) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nO6WG-00H4Qg-88; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 18:30:36 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_00572A16-0F64-4E1D-BA74-7C2035FA2DE6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: "touch@strayalpha.com" In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:30:30 -0800 Cc: Michael Richardson , Francesca Palombini , Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest Message-Id: <4E8BF7D3-799A-4133-90FD-4FE49C8494AC@strayalpha.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 23:30:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_00572A16-0F64-4E1D-BA74-7C2035FA2DE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 26, 2022, at 3:14 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > And, while a Bill is Just a Bill on Capital Hill, the different > streams, and, in practice, the different treatment of WG and > non-WG and Informational and Experimental versus Standards Track > documents in the IETF Stream would probably take a lot more than > a minute :-) Congresspeople would have the same observation, e.g., riders, = reconciliation, etc. all complicate the process. The point appears to be =E2=80=9Cit should be able to be explained = simply, in a 3 minute video=E2=80=9D, and Einstein would agree. Joe= --Apple-Mail=_00572A16-0F64-4E1D-BA74-7C2035FA2DE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Feb 26, 2022, at 3:14 PM, John C Klensin = <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote:

And, while a Bill is Just a Bill = on Capital Hill, the different
streams, and, in practice, the different treatment of WG = and
non-WG and = Informational and Experimental versus Standards Track
documents in the IETF Stream = would probably take a lot more than
a minute :-)

Congresspeople would have the same observation, e.g., = riders, reconciliation, etc. all complicate the process.

The point appears to be = =E2=80=9Cit should be able to be explained simply, in a 3 minute = video=E2=80=9D, and Einstein would agree.

Joe
= --Apple-Mail=_00572A16-0F64-4E1D-BA74-7C2035FA2DE6-- From nobody Sun Feb 27 17:15:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E0E3A0BE6; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:15:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K57AHtuKBtHP; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 369A03A0C4E; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93AFE38BFE; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 2nOW1ww3Gcxq; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:23:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58D5338BFD; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:23:56 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1646011436; bh=G3PbmqmTIOu4FaUcQh0o/NvIjgKR+1/2BBRGB9unVb4=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=ZuDA62e2Q38Bhpnmgf/2OXywkLMzYJXWh0IYJ37sM2I5D91QoILNMi0zEwIYhcWFi y9rUqcfcJ1G4uqWoTiKAdeph2kpYA7KGQMtLOfD6WRW94NFEsU0cmBy6+yaa7ZG7bY koF2NAFg3BmNMft/dGO83yvzN+CpHZbsnFc+e5tjJbfoTI/3yTmbQ54nHjV0mxZRpZ yHOaZSA+O/g8/3ZfAR0OgvDEmU/RT6umLRq3g4DSpgQMEEdDZXY6ae0XVOaSfjmq1x NqAxfEw897b1/umTCLeOPKB4yXjZnFSxEUdP843cTBRXHO28Vc9ODd3VAFatnUOOwL 22MqV3/7XvPkg== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69F1147; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:15:05 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest In-Reply-To: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 01:15:16 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John C Klensin wrote: >> Michael Richardson wrote: > Perhaps we need a >> 1-minute (physics) video, in the spirit of "A Bill is > Just Bill on >> Capital Hill" to explain the RFC process. >> >> Uhm, I fat fingered the send now button. "I'm just a Bill" >> >> The link to go long with this is: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DOgVKvqTItto > Would you propose doing that now, after the new Model has settled in > enough that one can describe the new process (noting, in particular, > that, in case of disputes, the RSE now has a role (and authority) > while, in the new model, the RSCE does not unless the whole RSAB gets > dragged in). Or would you propose to do it twice? I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC will not be changi= ng as a result of the RSCE. If we started work on such a 3-minute video today, it is unlikely we'd finish it prior to the new Model settling in. I don't think that the details about disputes, etc. would even make into th= e video. But, if the powers that would be paying for such a thing wanted to wait a f= ew months, that would be fine with me. > And, while a Bill is Just a Bill on Capital Hill, the different > streams, and, in practice, the different treatment of WG and non-WG a= nd > Informational and Experimental versus Standards Track documents in the > IETF Stream would probably take a lot more than a minute :-) I did rewatched Just a Bill (and the 2014 SNL spoof of it, where Executive Orders were explained...), and I don't think that it went into any details = about the different ways that bills go through committee, or the twelve different ways in which the bill can be filabustered. It's not important. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iPMEAQEKAB0WIQSk7ZHEG9TCGBNASfm/sjw/rPYc8wUCYhwiGQAKCRC/sjw/rPYc 8wnMBf9wRpFsZnfLi1cfGTRrSxyST3zzesav0fRq+aCcatlNWsII7iPSIIw5SuqN 99CKVvreVqyzfwHdsZXvWkUmeqi0NLFYFhR78jdb9jEnSAshCEetcuEMOI7+Sl4n vJuA4EuAgjg5/M7HGGM5n0gSMB3+KJ6/ghOFLjItTDo4sYrGqSxOK05BOB+I7Lq1 xU3lnknHFEd6tkNo5MA3wUt9r2AviwACUJQBGnwpx1PGzi1EPcLOIbRm9r7LkHbY 7yxkqd8= =kx/+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Feb 27 17:46:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A003A0E38; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:45:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.857 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.857 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2TkXrz_ilAYH; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 711503A08A6; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id v5so8903036ilm.9; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:45:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZH0viHEkJ1QzyPL1oILentWA68y9Sa9SQAS8f34dboI=; b=O4oznE2XH2oJc1OC779DYWc9/8mEp1jq/mpA/CuvXzFvJExW+/AZG9WCGyJsgId11N Gmp18oTfRNOi7I4UH1gynzW9E0pD4/b9LuS6zGQITR05mFiYxBPC6RMrq7WKCMHs18No ZFDUTUuKoBN1+TYIBi2TctqDohZCd8dugNzoosXFdywmx9wrc/n7UFYnUSxJ+A2yzXx9 Lm610jFCIiuvc/2prmOm71VwgC3262FdsXOP2cOGzKxVqRO63+s58v9hFw3GqwZslcZ3 p53pO5Mb1nD3MmpSkUOE5Q/9g+PcTaiIyK3Hv6CSOKOYv8fzEwIQfrlLOqzN7UK8pFV2 BvBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZH0viHEkJ1QzyPL1oILentWA68y9Sa9SQAS8f34dboI=; b=7Qs7WG5BVO2P/yRb6dClw16pnUuqtJ7cOTn+bHq8UZK08n3czYFxCH9notNmtthVoQ MFbR6zIDui5mlaxBGtoroMYKTcxr/S0VTt4YKy+98AtSZCf8a+odqMZO/SyAWln3g/cw iI4aRW70YLf8ybnte/KPtqaolihLml6mqSXqmnAeUkozkSb/9klUiUubOGGoolsJ2nQY I9FKKYosW8x2M9DxXNqmNQmC+pckP6TTSKWrbIr7j1MKnHjLqaP0D3d9QPo5VqV3ejac VdTq89zlihFUD/ILNzPizNCb/g9+zaqHrmzSx5HDyu4BClkDEYu5JLi33kfuS/5wIWoi C0Ig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Bn7FmA3TwaUe4agCrL5Q4dzQ4OgXGPm88kKMXdSueFYpAuOhT COjIigqFaHmnnfxn7elX00Xe+p32Ts8PIZ3ySS4T7UHOn9U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjmSjzWyrbQGyf9ENYy9fDZNkruPEY1v8SM8YFN7XiNWw6QbbfbpZFkiy2rfn7Pp2iEMS3bKPHrkyRPRVf6Pw= X-Received: by 2002:a92:cd8c:0:b0:2be:abb:ec04 with SMTP id r12-20020a92cd8c000000b002be0abbec04mr17201318ilb.246.1646012752554; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:45:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> In-Reply-To: <15355.1646010905@localhost> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 01:45:40 +0000 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000069715605d90a35cb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 01:45:59 -0000 --00000000000069715605d90a35cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 1:16 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > John C Klensin wrote: > >> Michael Richardson wrote: > Perhaps we need a > >> 1-minute (physics) video, in the spirit of "A Bill is > Just Bill on > >> Capital Hill" to explain the RFC process. > >> > >> Uhm, I fat fingered the send now button. "I'm just a Bill" > >> > >> The link to go long with this is: > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgVKvqTItto > > > Would you propose doing that now, after the new Model has settled in > > enough that one can describe the new process (noting, in particular, > > that, in case of disputes, the RSE now has a role (and authority) > > while, in the new model, the RSCE does not unless the whole RSAB gets > > dragged in). Or would you propose to do it twice? > > I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC will not be > changing > as a result of the RSCE. If we started work on such a 3-minute video > today, > it is unlikely we'd finish it prior to the new Model settling in. > I don't think that the details about disputes, etc. would even make into > the video. > But, if the powers that would be paying for such a thing wanted to wait a > few > months, that would be fine with me. > > > And, while a Bill is Just a Bill on Capital Hill, the different > > streams, and, in practice, the different treatment of WG and non-WG > and > > Informational and Experimental versus Standards Track documents in > the > > IETF Stream would probably take a lot more than a minute :-) > > I did rewatched Just a Bill (and the 2014 SNL spoof of it, where Executive > Orders were explained...), and I don't think that it went into any details > about > the different ways that bills go through committee, or the twelve different > ways in which the bill can be filabustered. It's not important. > Ok, I bit. Here's the lyrics, should just take a few minutes for a talented vocalist to record. I'm just a draft ========== oof, you sure gotta complete a lot of steps to get something up on the datatracker I wonder what that sad little scrap of HTML is? I'm just draft, yes an Internet-Draft, and I'm sitting here under Note Well. Well it's a long long journey to the RFC series It's a long long wait while I'm sitting as an I-D But I know I'll be a RFC At least I hope and pray that it's fast, but today I am still just a draft Gee I-D, you certainly have a lot of patience and typos Well I got this far. When I started I wasn't even written, I was just an idea. Some devs back home decided they wanted a spec, so they called their local WG chair and they said "You're right, this ought to be an RFC" And they sat down and issued an adoption call And I became an adopted I-D. And I'll remain an I-D until they decide to make me an RFC. I'm just draft, yes an Internet-Draft, and I got as far datatracker. Well, now I'm stuck in consesus, and I'll sit here and wait. While the WG members discuss and debate. Whether they should let me be an RFC. Well I hope and pray that it's fast, but today I am still just a draft. Listen to that WG arguing. Is all that discussion and debate about you? Yeah, I'm one of the lucky ones. Most drafts never even get this far. I hope they decide to report on me favourably. Otherwise I may die. Die? Yeah, die in consensus. Ooh, but it looks like I'm going to live. Now I go to the IETF Last Call and they critique me. If the say yes, what happens? Then I go to the IESG and the whole thing starts all over again. Oh no! Oh yes. I'm just draft, yes an I-D, and if they ballot me in IESG. Well then, I'm off to the RFC queue. Where I'll wait in a line. With a lot of other drafts, for the editor to refine. And if they AUTH48 me then I'll be an RFC. I hope and pray that it's fast, but today I am still just a draft You mean even if the whole IETF says you should be an RFC, the editor can still say no? No that would be called a veto If the RFC editor could veto, that would be a failure to separate concerns. And by that time it would be too late to veto anyway. It's not easy to become an RFC is it? No! But how I hope and pray that it's fast, but today I am still just a draft They published you I-D, now you're an RFC. Oh yeah! Errata ===== My introduction to this Just a Bill song was via the Simpsons "I'm an amendment to be" [1], which reminded me a bit of errata, so here's also an additional bonus: Hey, who left all this garbage in the RFC? I'm not garbage, I'm an erratum to be, yes an erratum to be. And I'm hoping that they'll validate me. There's a lot of editorials in the examples And I want to make them correct because I treat them as normative and nobody else does but I hope and pray that they will,when it's fixed. Can't we just fix the text directly? No! Because that would mean that the RFCs are mutable. But if we say they are immutable, we can store the erratum and fix it by rewriting the RFC. Good news erratum. They verified you. Now you'll sit in the errata page that everyone forgets about. Oh yeah! Cheers Lucas [1] - https://youtu.be/w8gt-EEpelY?t=15 --00000000000069715605d90a35cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 1:16 AM Micha= el Richardson <mcr+ietf@sande= lman.ca> wrote:

John C Klensin <j= ohn-ietf@jck.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote: > Perhaps we ne= ed a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> 1-minute (physics) video, in the spirit of "A B= ill is > Just Bill on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Capital Hill" to explain the RFC process.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Uhm, I fat fingered the send now button.=C2=A0 "= ;I'm just a Bill"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> The link to go long with this is:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3DOgVKvqTItto

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Would you propose doing that now, after the new Model ha= s settled in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > enough that one can describe the new process (noting, in= particular,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that, in case of disputes, the RSE now has a role (and a= uthority)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > while, in the new model, the RSCE does not unless the wh= ole RSAB gets
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > dragged in).=C2=A0 Or would you propose to do it twice?<= br>
I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC will not be changi= ng
as a result of the RSCE.=C2=A0 If we started work on such a 3-minute video = today,
it is unlikely we'd finish it prior to the new Model settling in.
I don't think that the details about disputes, etc. would even make int= o the video.
But, if the powers that would be paying for such a thing wanted to wait a f= ew
months, that would be fine with me.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > And, while a Bill is Just a Bill on Capital Hill, the di= fferent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > streams, and, in practice, the different treatment of WG= and non-WG and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Informational and Experimental versus Standards Track do= cuments in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > IETF Stream would probably take a lot more than a minute= :-)

I did rewatched Just a Bill (and the 2014 SNL spoof of it, where Executive<= br> Orders were explained...), and I don't think that it went into any deta= ils about
the different ways that bills go through committee, or the twelve different=
ways in which the bill can be filabustered.=C2=A0 It's not important.

Ok, I bit. Here's the lyrics, should= just take a few minutes for a talented vocalist to record.

I'm just a draft
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

oof, you s= ure gotta complete a lot of steps to get something up on the datatrackerI wonder what that sad little scrap of HTML is?

I'm just draft,= yes an Internet-Draft, and I'm sitting here under Note Well.
Well i= t's a long long journey to the RFC series
It's a long long wait = while I'm sitting as an I-D
But I know I'll be a RFC
At least= I hope and pray that it's fast, but today I am still just a draft
<= br>Gee I-D, you certainly have a lot of patience and typos
Well I got th= is far.
When I started I wasn't even written, I was just an idea.Some devs back home decided they wanted a spec,
so they called their lo= cal WG chair and they said
"You're right, this ought to be an R= FC"
And they sat down and issued an adoption call
And I became a= n adopted I-D.
And I'll remain an I-D until they decide to make me = an RFC.

I'm just draft, yes an Internet-Draft, and I got as far = datatracker.
Well, now I'm stuck in consesus, and I'll sit here = and wait.
While the WG members discuss and debate.
Whether they shoul= d let me be an RFC.
Well I hope and pray that it's fast, but today I= am still just a draft.

Listen to that WG arguing. Is all that discu= ssion and debate about you?
Yeah, I'm one of the lucky ones. Most dr= afts never even get this far.
I hope they decide to report on me favoura= bly.
Otherwise I may die.
Die?
Yeah, die in consensus.
Ooh, but= it looks like I'm going to live.
Now I go to the IETF Last Call and= they critique me.
If the say yes, what happens?
Then I go to the IES= G and the whole thing starts all over again.
Oh no!
Oh yes.

I&= #39;m just draft, yes an I-D, and if they ballot me in IESG.
Well then, = I'm off to the RFC queue.
Where I'll wait in a line.
With a l= ot of other drafts, for the editor to refine.
And if they AUTH48 me then= I'll be an RFC.
I hope and pray that it's fast, but today I am = still just a draft

You mean even if the whole IETF says you should b= e an RFC, the editor can still say no?
No that would be called a vetoIf the RFC editor could veto, that would be a failure to separate concerns= .
And by that time it would be too late to veto anyway.


It= 9;s not easy to become an RFC is it?
No!
But how I hope and pray that= it's fast, but today I am still just a draft

They published you= I-D, now you're an RFC.
Oh yeah!

Errata
=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D

My introduction to this Just a Bill = song was via the Simpsons "I'm an amendment to be" [1], which= reminded me a bit of errata, so here's also an additional bonus:
Hey, who left all this garbage in the RFC?
I'm not garbage, I'= m an erratum to be, yes an erratum to be.
And I'm hoping that they&#= 39;ll validate me.
There's a lot of editorials in the examples
An= d I want to make them correct because I treat them as normative and nobody = else does
but I hope and pray that they will,when it's fixed.
Can't we just fix the text directly?
No! Because that would mean t= hat the RFCs are mutable.
But if we say they are immutable, we can store= the erratum
and fix it by rewriting the RFC.

Good news erratum. = They verified you. Now you'll sit in the errata page
that everyone f= orgets about.
Oh yeah!

Cheers
Lucas
--00000000000069715605d90a35cb-- From nobody Sun Feb 27 19:45:05 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872BC3A089B; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:45:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21y2vAePpa49; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DA773A0897; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id w37so10288403pga.7; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:44:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ni2WbGxxSteqQuL30ic+7IbgViqPId0PSn88D8MXs94=; b=h6f+ymV7rtd7/GBZrQYlt4XPo4QwIjUsfdcTRLpeYDJVtBmyPYt3Cess45yVMVgJd4 1ykJNZsADRyve7kijhCgpWdzbTMjD7YVFvLNUPbViL8YZoes7Qgw7G6nmQCfxvDq8RBn gEMHy5EajuG1WzsiH/6tsm1aPJjSqVB5WcxrH52c8fdgZpUlkirI3TbgU80hWyRJdZBC SZ7wEMJcT4yG6L75oPj9zFR4q+QlZlwonH2+psP60AH6rxbygwceD+8RUE8SiH97IE++ IYSolTdmcLETiGBQqKqPUuOz+PABxaqBgkPZZsIJjoTw9pkwV2wJkYP4za4dlk2ZUToW b+qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ni2WbGxxSteqQuL30ic+7IbgViqPId0PSn88D8MXs94=; b=BPAHGVonCv2oqnf58+Vk1WPw+BTGsz8Vwh8k5+rn/gcmw04GTISQHekX3ix/tRfWnr luamAegAeS39GXCuechK9Er9wSVYJQQBunBw8Jf2WbXay2FHNysoF+rK8Kg2ZE+0eMf5 PnXIFYEzcoEOHJx8tNDrJvyWAh4D5SuXvzHApWwyc7WwPU+OKkroPVNJXkeeTv7l8IU3 CCgUg7cRcZkO3ozJ9f4Zcrj0H9F/nN0FJ7sHM22Vk44qpefdwVrHGWkQXpUcKJoGTPZ6 2qfxBTHZnhAAQf+PpHNoI4UKw6X+r6Q1P+3Oreqc8W/4A8gyzVJVomL4l/XRrS7mlXzF LTiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wltDqzgvzRcwvFuOfKHkjVaUxjwuu2YCAmA4uvMJMMLXcuW3I hhYOd6QN4paX+mIFjjg1vxk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVAR9QZjiPKQLwIudv4ntZfMBSClOOKYbOudcR2vPoTZjIZclmsG/I79fhjoAOR4clbQQXJg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:f24b:0:b0:343:9666:eca9 with SMTP id d11-20020a63f24b000000b003439666eca9mr15905517pgk.274.1646019898074; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e2-20020a056a00162200b004e0a8002697sm10605987pfc.123.2022.02.27.19.44.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:44:57 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Richardson , Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:44:50 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15355.1646010905@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 03:45:04 -0000 On 28-Feb-22 14:15, Michael Richardson wrote: > I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC will not be changing > as a result of the RSCE. I'd say 100%. I'm no good at videos or poetry, but I can work LibreOffice. An attempt at a diagram (two pages) is at https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/id-flow.pdf As far as AUTH48 goes, it corresponds to current practice. I'm more than happy to put the source file on github if anybody's interested. Brian From nobody Sun Feb 27 20:53:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB7E3A098C; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:52:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oV_VRShRgPJt; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:52:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from server217-1.web-hosting.com (server217-1.web-hosting.com [198.54.114.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72E2D3A09A1; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:52:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6bJLXvMGh0LBV/S8zxueiMCN5IqmsE8kon+PD7eLUyQ=; b=f7rCZrWihfhngLtG1s6TM51yQ0 TLmQqY8OsWaAUMiYgqmNAe5shfFWKI9bCNSSpaYL3w3HJvkE74/42XYnwJ69JwcUtDGgkoVtKYuru PMQ+2i59/HFwm9ZLI9+wzgJEJaUjnI93uFgFg+9NyQ9NtFlLzcH3aP9N0Hg00tR6QYe76TQJttC8Y Qm6PsZ50MAjUd6Yru5FIOll7+5VdwqISCp9CgFwa2FFEOgdKTYRFeT+a8JvM9Os2BlcTceWhV2OaI t2q9Fn7Pz3Mb4qzwSR5YjSD3kxnJJMAZ2fNahnQNvSYVigRFFs3QbqhoCQts3LPMYlsdeQbBfBf6W kYfSnLmg==; Received: from cpe-172-114-237-88.socal.res.rr.com ([172.114.237.88]:51607 helo=smtpclient.apple) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOY1e-00FvYU-SV; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 23:52:51 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_73613C03-564E-4683-818B-2C057F0FA22E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: "touch@strayalpha.com" In-Reply-To: <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:52:45 -0800 Cc: Michael Richardson , Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest Message-Id: <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:52:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_73613C03-564E-4683-818B-2C057F0FA22E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I think you left out WGLC. Joe =E2=80=94 Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Feb 27, 2022, at 7:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 28-Feb-22 14:15, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 >> I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC will not be = changing >> as a result of the RSCE. >=20 > I'd say 100%. I'm no good at videos or poetry, but I can work = LibreOffice. > An attempt at a diagram (two pages) is at = https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/id-flow.pdf > As far as AUTH48 goes, it corresponds to current practice. >=20 > I'm more than happy to put the source file on github if anybody's = interested. >=20 > Brian > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest --Apple-Mail=_73613C03-564E-4683-818B-2C057F0FA22E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = think you left out WGLC.

Joe

=E2=80=94
Dr. Joe Touch, = temporal epistemologist
www.strayalpha.com

On Feb 27, 2022, at 7:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On = 28-Feb-22 14:15, Michael Richardson wrote:

I think that 97% of how = an internet-draft becomes an RFC will not be changing
as a = result of the RSCE.

I'd say = 100%. I'm no good at videos or poetry, but I can work LibreOffice.
An attempt at a diagram (two pages) is at https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/id-flow.pdf
As far as AUTH48 goes, it corresponds to current practice.

I'm more than happy to put the source file on = github if anybody's interested.

=    Brian
_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest

= --Apple-Mail=_73613C03-564E-4683-818B-2C057F0FA22E-- From nobody Sun Feb 27 22:03:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 966913A0AF7; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:03:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Jq26SL4EAS0; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CCC53A0AFE; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id e8so15919994ljj.2; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:03:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=v5HjjHzLL0qhEhG6Z5fbTzilVlmmSknO2DQ1efOMFWk=; b=I5K3D0emNqccjIrS84/GhQqGe4bFg/ZpMPHY5YW98sqLJRBP4rDLVICtWltYRvZ1t6 3FW3aLUFUu8NuqgRusNl5dGIMVbzjna30rH6wonKXWXaODTXEaiShC1luTdeUIGvtbS/ rE4d1MhxwvacQT6LWrR82AEE6LudVwunhRwT5GJRoRk6vaXcd8PWxpZvtI3BvgC97PQ5 r1fM1/q/jpCjSwiMnE7ieGCCJW7FR2IrMear56OlhYsjp7NTHH52YN/6JzLqcEyFUm/5 CgbuI44+BEVE1d2j7w/Fe7mYVbi+6mN8lmaMWBAfEftSTQucGfGbywdlDWqEkPSyD0s9 /3Wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=v5HjjHzLL0qhEhG6Z5fbTzilVlmmSknO2DQ1efOMFWk=; b=XT0l5GOqpb++4MoTLvWwGBomm97RiAgZFzrORFMN3rpt8fnfKkTQaYM7Nkertd7cA+ OT8LYPD4AtzvLd6tPrUYfOJXnKvx/8PfBwi20yD2z4+pu23XdzzT7rmQE3yw9N+ezMSr KnmfWI9T4WQml88iFxW+WxKe5YHj2GnSLM2+ZvGr3bNCTPYra9vRnVda1rg4i43GaUpt 2pHRihYZQYTvhf9IkEuT/oJD4WWHYgwzsAzET7SNOtdsiuBI+gtgauRspr4dUDUVdCAh L8BWuap+GiKNOSJ93K7p9lEzTOLFodgCCgwKW8BnvIeBv7SbE5GB8Uu5QPGUAK0OLhGA 0eag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530cIiOmiEIEIdNznHi//HyESdZi7Pwn39fl5UpU87EcNKoKLYTi Uk/nuitPsHdMPTzrYXRUiiABLWgiUYE0XfAAI7E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxHusQIyaNQcdBGH+p2Ef8GCpLIU5UWDaG2YJ/db8bvp3W/cDuaY0wt8O+fqR3J+btTLbiNxiz5Zm6Y7HY1uQs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9d89:0:b0:244:1ed:1960 with SMTP id c9-20020a2e9d89000000b0024401ed1960mr13651933ljj.413.1646028192940; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:03:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> In-Reply-To: <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> From: Brian Carpenter Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 19:03:01 +1300 Message-ID: To: Joe Touch Cc: Michael Richardson , Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bb092205d90dcd43" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 06:03:21 -0000 --000000000000bb092205d90dcd43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are quite a few things missing. The challenge is where to stop, and how much detail do you want in tutorial diagram. Regards, Brian Carpenter (via tiny screen & keyboard) On Mon, 28 Feb 2022, 17:52 touch@strayalpha.com, wrote: > I think you left out WGLC. > > Joe > > =E2=80=94 > Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist > www.strayalpha.com > > On Feb 27, 2022, at 7:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 28-Feb-22 14:15, Michael Richardson wrote: > > I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC will not be > changing > as a result of the RSCE. > > > I'd say 100%. I'm no good at videos or poetry, but I can work LibreOffice= . > An attempt at a diagram (two pages) is at > https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/id-flow.pdf > As far as AUTH48 goes, it corresponds to current practice. > > I'm more than happy to put the source file on github if anybody's > interested. > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > > > --000000000000bb092205d90dcd43 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are quite a few things missing. The challenge is wh= ere to stop, and how much detail do you want in tutorial diagram.

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian = Carpenter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Mo= n, 28 Feb 2022, 17:52 touch@strayal= pha.com, <touch@strayalpha.c= om> wrote:
I think you left out WGLC.<= div>
Joe

=E2=80=94
Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist

On Feb 27, 2022, at 7:44 PM, Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 28-Feb-22 14:15, Michael Richardson wrote:

I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC wi= ll not be changing
as a result of the RSCE.

I'd = say 100%. I'm no good at videos or poetry, but I can work LibreOffice.<= br>An attempt at a diagram (two pages) is at https:/= /www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/id-flow.pdf
As far as AUTH48 goes, it = corresponds to current practice.

I'm more than happy to put the = source file on github if anybody's interested.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0Brian
_______________________________________________
rfc-interest= mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest

--000000000000bb092205d90dcd43-- From nobody Sun Feb 27 22:13:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7C83A0B2F; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:13:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yCxPu3sEu8WU; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78CBB3A05F8; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4K6VSL2ZPkz1pMgF; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1646028818; bh=hvGb5NXjnqVnK2zPysr0VphL/+PzBS8avXyqsweMSNw=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Uwfmbri5kY83gKnBniRrqG0+RAj0D8Iq2qubaLojlKWei96MPllbfxzmr+U+tt3oS 2cI4H+LdVfGtGDboI/MmfHtG782+93YqpY0C8yStctqW8Wi4vHM1C2TmZ+I3nJcYrP /hDJIhl7lSfqlFHMCvainOdgB4Hanrxo42ANXVHE= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K6VSK4SXBz1ntwr; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:13:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <56cbe12f-490a-6908-a865-ee3124421dae@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 01:13:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian Carpenter Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF , Working Group Chairs References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 06:13:46 -0000 I would have thought that the primary thread that would be useful to be shown for a draft is: Individual draft discussion and improvement WG adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs) discussion and improvement WG Last Call w/ discussion AD Review w/ discussion IETF Last Call w/ discussion IESG Approval w/ discussion editing Publication With some notation somewhere that advancement along that sequence is not guaranteed. Yours, Joel On 2/28/2022 1:03 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote: > There are quite a few things missing. The challenge is where to stop, > and how much detail do you want in tutorial diagram. > > Regards, >     Brian Carpenter >     (via tiny screen & keyboard) > > On Mon, 28 Feb 2022, 17:52 touch@strayalpha.com > , > wrote: > > I think you left out WGLC. > > Joe > > — > Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist > www.strayalpha.com > >> On Feb 27, 2022, at 7:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter >> > >> wrote: >> >> On 28-Feb-22 14:15, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >>> I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC will not >>> be changing >>> as a result of the RSCE. >> >> I'd say 100%. I'm no good at videos or poetry, but I can work >> LibreOffice. >> An attempt at a diagram (two pages) is at >> https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/id-flow.pdf >> >> As far as AUTH48 goes, it corresponds to current practice. >> >> I'm more than happy to put the source file on github if anybody's >> interested. >> >>    Brian >> _______________________________________________ >> rfc-interest mailing list >> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >> > From nobody Mon Feb 28 00:38:00 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4053A0D14; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 00:37:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qRaX0Iljt6bK; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 00:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1102D3A0C61; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 00:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K6YfV5mRfzDCgP; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:37:38 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <0FD3012EE10E4D1DF8102DFC@PSB> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:37:37 +0100 Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <67AEA2CC-5A0F-477F-A622-668B6D26752E@tzi.org> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> <02c201d82a71$fd17b510$f7471f30$@acm.org> <0FD3012EE10E4D1DF8102DFC@PSB> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:37:46 -0000 >> With the move to XML and renderings of a new RFC in different >> formats, who is responsible for reviewing the different >> renderings for unintended changes in meaning? If it's the >> authors, I'd hope that a change in AUTH48 might offer some way >> to spread the burden. >>=20 >> FWIW >=20 > Larry, based on the last document with which I went through > AUTH48 (in the first half of 2020), it wasn't clear who, if > anyone, was responsible for checking the different formats and > renderings. =20 =E2=80=9CResponsible=E2=80=9D: The authors of course (in theory). > Of course, the theory is that, if the XML is > correct, everything else should take care of itself. =20 Well, that isn=E2=80=99t even a theory. Xml2rfc has its mysterious ways. More importantly, implementers will look at a rendering (TXT, HTML/PDF). If that is confusing, you will have interoperability problems (or low = take-up). So authors will typically check one of the renderings in some detail. (Only with a lot of luck, they will seriously both TXT and HTML or PDF, = which unfortunately is really needed in particular since 3.10.0.) Where aspects of the XML are not visible in the renderings, the RPC has = started to ask specific questions. 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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:55:19 -0500 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: John C Klensin , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF , Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006a434b05d9110c7a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:55:37 -0000 --0000000000006a434b05d9110c7a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I am in favor of greater transparency in this area and I feel that the discussion has been helpful, I think the fundamental issue is that the AUTH48 process has gotten out of control, which it clearly has, given that there are documents that have languished in this state for over 25 weeks rather than 48 *hours*, which was the original intention. I can see no justification for this expansion to 25 x 7 x 24 =3D 4200. Perhaps with the formatting issues that now exist there is a need to be more realistic and move to AUTH168 or even AUTH192 but a line clearly has to be drawn and AUTH4200 is on the wrong side of it. It gives time for issues on which consensus has been declared to be relitigated, perhaps endlessly, and that is clearly bad. Another source is ADs showing an inappropriate degree of tolerance for lazy authors and that has to stop somehow.9oj The IESG has tried to address this issue in a statement on 1/5/2006 but, here we are 16 years later and the problem still exists. I'd like to ask all ADs with documents beyond the AUTH1000 point to investigate and suggest ways to address the issue for real. On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, 3:37 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> With the move to XML and renderings of a new RFC in different > >> formats, who is responsible for reviewing the different > >> renderings for unintended changes in meaning? If it's the > >> authors, I'd hope that a change in AUTH48 might offer some way > >> to spread the burden. > >> > >> FWIW > > > > Larry, based on the last document with which I went through > > AUTH48 (in the first half of 2020), it wasn't clear who, if > > anyone, was responsible for checking the different formats and > > renderings. > > =E2=80=9CResponsible=E2=80=9D: The authors of course (in theory). > > > Of course, the theory is that, if the XML is > > correct, everything else should take care of itself. > > Well, that isn=E2=80=99t even a theory. > Xml2rfc has its mysterious ways. > > More importantly, implementers will look at a rendering (TXT, HTML/PDF). > If that is confusing, you will have interoperability problems (or low > take-up). > So authors will typically check one of the renderings in some detail. > (Only with a lot of luck, they will seriously both TXT and HTML or PDF, > which unfortunately is really needed in particular since 3.10.0.) > > Where aspects of the XML are not visible in the renderings, the RPC has > started to ask specific questions. > E.g., for the type=3D attributes of I=E2=80=99m not sure there is a checklist of invisible aspects. > It would help to have an debug-the-XML rendering where all these invisibl= e > aspects become visible. > > In summary, I think that a theory where authors are responsible for the > XML will stay fiction. > The RPC is much better off doing this, being used to operate in that nois= y > environment, and (I hope) more aware what went wrong in previous RFCs. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --0000000000006a434b05d9110c7a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While I am in favor of greater transpar= ency in this area and I feel that the discussion has been helpful, I think = the fundamental issue is that the AUTH48 process has gotten out of control,= which it clearly has, given that there are documents that have languished = in this state for over 25 weeks rather than 48 hours, which was the = original intention.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I can see no justification for this expansi= on to 25 x 7 x 24 =3D=C2=A0 4200.

Perhaps with the formatting issues that now exist there is a need to be= more realistic and move to AUTH168 or even AUTH192 but a line clearly has = to be drawn and AUTH4200 is on the wrong side of it.

It gives time for issues on which consensus ha= s been declared to be relitigated, perhaps endlessly, and that is clearly b= ad.=C2=A0 Another source is ADs showing an inappropriate degree of toleranc= e for lazy authors and that has to stop somehow.9oj
=
The IESG has tried to address this issue in a s= tatement on 1/5/2006 but, here we are 16 years later and the problem still= =C2=A0exists.

I'd li= ke to ask all ADs with documents beyond the AUTH1000 point to investigate a= nd suggest ways to address the issue for real.=C2=A0=C2=A0




On= Mon, Feb 28, 2022, 3:37 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>> With the move to XML and render= ings of a new RFC in different
>> formats, who is responsible for reviewing the different
>> renderings for unintended changes in meaning? If it's the
>> authors, I'd hope that a change in AUTH48 might offer some way=
>> to spread the burden.
>>
>> FWIW
>
> Larry, based on the last document with which I went through
> AUTH48 (in the first half of 2020), it wasn't clear who, if
> anyone, was responsible for checking the different formats and
> renderings.=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CResponsible=E2=80=9D: The authors of course (in theory).

> Of course, the theory is that, if the XML is
> correct, everything else should take care of itself.=C2=A0

Well, that isn=E2=80=99t even a theory.
Xml2rfc has its mysterious ways.

More importantly, implementers will look at a rendering (TXT, HTML/PDF). If that is confusing, you will have interoperability problems (or low take-= up).
So authors will typically check one of the renderings in some detail.
(Only with a lot of luck, they will seriously both TXT and HTML or PDF, whi= ch unfortunately is really needed in particular since 3.10.0.)

Where aspects of the XML are not visible in the renderings, the RPC has sta= rted to ask specific questions.
E.g., for the type=3D attributes of <sourcecode elements.
I=E2=80=99m not sure there is a checklist of invisible aspects.
It would help to have an debug-the-XML rendering where all these invisible = aspects become visible.

In summary, I think that a theory where authors are responsible for the XML= will stay fiction.
The RPC is much better off doing this, being used to operate in that noisy = environment, and (I hope) more aware what went wrong in previous RFCs.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

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Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:57:38 -0600 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Brian Carpenter CC: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , RFC Interest , IETF , Working Group Chairs Thread-Topic: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications Thread-Index: AQHYKc1ZnWhl+rbNOEuaECP10wQbPqykWpiAgABbioCAAA+cgIAACACAgAAVIoCAAU2iAIAAmHUAgAACdgCAABLdgIABs+yAgAAp1wCAABL6gIAAE6KAgABBjIA= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 14:57:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.58.22021501 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:45:16 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:45:26 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps the story of AUTH4200 could be more clearly communicated so that we can understand if it's an anomaly. My experience, for instance, with RFC8415 was that AUTH48 stretched into 2-= 3 months, because the length of the document meant that a few authors just couldn't find the time to do the full review required. A significant issue was that it had spent a long time in the Q, and authors had swapped too much context out. Basically, the best way to make it all work faster would be to just do it faster :-) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iPMEAQEKAB0WIQSk7ZHEG9TCGBNASfm/sjw/rPYc8wUCYhzuCwAKCRC/sjw/rPYc 85KTBf9lThdhk/+JXqHGCcdAI/88TatLqMXwLNzg+GxqWqUagCwG6t/d6h8EPNtn jx+yWRlt9/8DKMysayRfp2+aJC2ywI4Ood8QAQ3Hz4/37mwqhx0aZOYJYkVIkl7C WHfhRWKxjN8EC06y5ZbMLT1t3bvhV0BnbgjYPr2YSp+dfua4ASRsIy6vW0ZY/EDE fKwQvtJaaPOL8a6ntxH79YRm8+fTseswf87DJsYjLlbddNhYkaXVtnqxe65FYm90 DdhMKcA= =Ernz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 28 07:50:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02453A12EA; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 07:50:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fcRNQEKnto37; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 07:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta7.iomartmail.com (mta7.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.157]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F50C3A12E9; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 07:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta7.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 21SFocS1002638; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:50:38 GMT Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38EA46088; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:50:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66C346082; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:50:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:50:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([148.252.133.209]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 21SFoZO3031511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:50:36 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Michael Richardson'" , "'Working Group Chairs'" , , "'IETF'" , "'RFC Interest'" References: <28081.1646063116@localhost> In-Reply-To: <28081.1646063116@localhost> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:50:35 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <06c401d82cba$ee5f93d0$cb1ebb70$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFzRvUh1t44phXfAianNcw29XB2YwHav5I3rWQRMrA= Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 148.252.133.209 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-8.6.0.1018-26744.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--0.113-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--0.113-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2090-8.6.1018-26744.001 X-TMASE-Result: 10--0.112800-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: csPTYAMX1+GmB0axtE0FAomfV7NNMGm+aMmm586o4gDmLPqRyMdZ43Aw i8qlmI2og/ufF9saoHUO1sOH1eyesUuOR6SoiPT4Wxfo7yZZDqYbTwzYj2zQukQ1A3rZvLR3OsO e9dqXwy+T7DAI4SBjCyHAFLUVRioPJ9dgBhH1liVZNYSHk3Zr0cqspZV+lCSLU90aXVYiYIPYpx vB1HSgp+GPN9ASUbX0X7bicKxRIU23kKuphdkuPys3zPQeiEbe+gtHj7OwNO1zbSW8HZ+hqF1Yn HlakcxHDg9hpQxnBqLdB/Ow/2n6RtDkoAMlqPzjVlxr1FJij9s= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:50:47 -0000 Y'all might find Christian's work in RFC 8963 useful in this regard. Although only a small and random sample of RFCs, it does show some of = the variation in Auth48 and the (possibly anecdotal) causes thereof. Adrian -----Original Message----- From: rfc-interest On Behalf Of = Michael Richardson Sent: 28 February 2022 15:45 To: Working Group Chairs ; admin-discuss@ietf.org; = IETF ; RFC Interest Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking = the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) Perhaps the story of AUTH4200 could be more clearly communicated so that = we can understand if it's an anomaly. My experience, for instance, with RFC8415 was that AUTH48 stretched into = 2-3 months, because the length of the document meant that a few authors just couldn't find = the time to do the full review required. A significant issue was that it = had spent a long time in the Q, and authors had swapped too much context = out. Basically, the best way to make it all work faster would be to just do = it faster :-) -- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T = consulting ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:18:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C453A11B3; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:18:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GJsRvPyNP4uJ; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:18:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from server217-1.web-hosting.com (server217-1.web-hosting.com [198.54.114.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D86423A1312; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:18:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=MSzW6xnV3kVxVV47EUaSFw0tlXt+o1nkavpmGgeXjZs=; b=ft/8JNve3yiqRCnOggzfrgs26W DqZsBnDUG6ZJdqVOJI0UT3AuHqVFgExDGkvOsSvB8vtBTe05brPWDjp7gU5nPLrqeJ2a/JsFb0ltk ySzZS50F9ABIZdiK2MaOOqVjHfihJ1q2vLfO0lSWxdewEnjVBhiNBFh3DwkZaxr/T/qsvdpRtLHhd zsOu5NiG4X3RzvxMBc1r9H2orLtlb2CXxGFF2WZHB+EyBrFPoRHRpzBDuI0QPiuViP3ORWvz2sWPq 3JHLcnLapIx2Nep8aKg7CuKAnXZdBmnfzt1NKLoONhgupnJhSARpsTv0cXjsC0Pzk2+VLc1VFrVaq KuU8oCmQ==; Received: from cpe-172-114-237-88.socal.res.rr.com ([172.114.237.88]:58138 helo=smtpclient.apple) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOijE-00Bkn4-1s; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:18:32 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CC70A275-F99B-4DCC-800E-2FAA2FCA3CB1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: "touch@strayalpha.com" In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:18:26 -0800 Cc: Michael Richardson , Working Group Chairs , IETF , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest Message-Id: <43F97C2F-8D03-4BF2-8748-CA5E9E71079D@strayalpha.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> To: Brian Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:18:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CC70A275-F99B-4DCC-800E-2FAA2FCA3CB1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Agreed, but I think WGLC as the gate to IESG review is an important step = and the only one such step missing. Joe =E2=80=94 Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Feb 27, 2022, at 10:03 PM, Brian Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > There are quite a few things missing. The challenge is where to stop, = and how much detail do you want in tutorial diagram. >=20 > Regards, > Brian Carpenter > (via tiny screen & keyboard) >=20 > On Mon, 28 Feb 2022, 17:52 touch@strayalpha.com = , > wrote: > I think you left out WGLC. >=20 > Joe --Apple-Mail=_CC70A275-F99B-4DCC-800E-2FAA2FCA3CB1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Agreed, but I think WGLC as the gate to IESG review is an = important step and the only one such step missing.
Joe

=E2=80=94
Dr. Joe Touch, = temporal epistemologist
www.strayalpha.com

On Feb 27, 2022, at 10:03 PM, Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

There are quite a few things missing. The challenge is where = to stop, and how much detail do you want in tutorial diagram.

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & = keyboard)

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022, 17:52 touch@strayalpha.com, = <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote:
I = think you left out WGLC.

Joe

= --Apple-Mail=_CC70A275-F99B-4DCC-800E-2FAA2FCA3CB1-- From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:22:11 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8FEB3A1310; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:22:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aAaKzMV0Lyv5; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from server217-1.web-hosting.com (server217-1.web-hosting.com [198.54.114.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12F373A1312; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:22:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=OShY2L8fmpAPtVJw/vp7E6pxFdltUNjwSM67ZrsATJ4=; b=ScQyWy3Tbl9HuDUIXLZAdfBfIW sloqpn6iYaoeb1GSuboJf+rcfJAMiWiCL1X50SiwzbN2TH0WS2KuBhmobLpPZRtggdSRhP+z3AVEg w4wzB28vnPXMGeebWmU5cdNRWKKBbeZNTstsBdlZzSM26Z0fKUqrZCKfVn/OTh96ZekVbqUymTVjZ XdkJ//QDwvro2pcSfOTVpRx1dTOyu5HAsgZvjgLMH4D0Mu7iFnMR70oa0bOBkZze/j4x3fCls6NUk vxUdGNcilQG9OT56KNRoBsh5qzvSwDSNkB5F7cO711OnSXeJ17LP5Co0RQjldr02Xy3PieqQgnwpM u+sETyRQ==; Received: from cpe-172-114-237-88.socal.res.rr.com ([172.114.237.88]:58384 helo=smtpclient.apple) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOimY-00Bow6-SY; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:21:59 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1BB7ED2C-8F6D-4112-A954-5E04E27AA077" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: "touch@strayalpha.com" In-Reply-To: <56cbe12f-490a-6908-a865-ee3124421dae@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:21:52 -0800 Cc: Brian Carpenter , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF Message-Id: <6411A4FF-1484-45EF-B8B1-31AB3CE25F14@strayalpha.com> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> <56cbe12f-490a-6908-a865-ee3124421dae@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:22:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1BB7ED2C-8F6D-4112-A954-5E04E27AA077 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, Joel, > On Feb 27, 2022, at 10:13 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > I would have thought that the primary thread that would be useful to = be shown for a draft is: >=20 > Individual draft > discussion and improvement > WG adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs) > discussion and improvement > WG Last Call w/ discussion > AD Review w/ discussion > IETF Last Call w/ discussion > IESG Approval w/ discussion > editing > Publication What=E2=80=99s the difference between AD review and the IESG step = (isn=E2=80=99t that Review with discussion)? I.e, why not: Individual draft discussion and improvement WG adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs) discussion and improvement WG Last Call w/ discussion // remove: // AD Review w/ discussion IETF Last Call w/ discussion IESG //Review, changed from: Approval // w/ discussion editing Publication > With some notation somewhere that advancement along that sequence is = not guaranteed. As a flowchart, it=E2=80=99s not just that things can fail to advance, = but at any point a doc can also be abandoned (i.e., exit the process). But those steps are often easier to indicate as a note, rather than arcs = everywhere. Joe --Apple-Mail=_1BB7ED2C-8F6D-4112-A954-5E04E27AA077 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi, = Joel,

On Feb 27, 2022, at 10:13 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>= wrote:

I would have thought that the primary thread that would be = useful to be shown for a draft is:

Individual= draft
discussion and improvement
WG = adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs)
discussion and improvement
WG Last Call w/ = discussion
AD Review w/ discussion
IETF Last = Call w/ discussion
IESG Approval w/ discussion
editing
Publication

What=E2=80=99s the difference between AD review = and the IESG step (isn=E2=80=99t that Review with = discussion)?
I.e, why not:

Individual draft
discussion and = improvement
WG adoption (no details, just that it usually = occurs)
discussion and improvement
WG Last = Call w/ discussion
// remove: // AD = Review w/ discussion
IETF Last Call w/ discussion
IESG //Review, changed from: Approval // w/ = discussion
editing
Publication
=
With some notation somewhere that advancement = along that sequence is not guaranteed.

As a = flowchart, it=E2=80=99s not just that things can fail to advance, but at = any point a doc can also be abandoned (i.e., exit the = process).

But those steps are often = easier to indicate as a note, rather than arcs everywhere.

Joe


= --Apple-Mail=_1BB7ED2C-8F6D-4112-A954-5E04E27AA077-- From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:37:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E2943A0B02; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:37:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TImCjiYUm7H7; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A99AC3A0C3B; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4K6mHy2NYtz1pMgJ; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:37:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1646066238; bh=7Zni1tQs111hsk1MldCM7b9XoIlSLOLpJV8mTFJV2AA=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=jL+wqcQRf+zYioY2RhNDADhi1Bz1llvAFh0Mdu+Qjbptv8yjQ9zwgbrUjEo0Ze71c X579t/QZB9jYWF495z/b0wr3SrpMetnrpZ7nFy0nAkHm34KiWhderXmysy1SyQztvY I4ftnrKwNqvEgegj+klSQWzIFJzKz9AJFmPSKXx8= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K6mHw4P7Kz1ntwp; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:37:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47df49b8-1013-bbeb-e13f-7ccc9c7b2be0@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:37:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "touch@strayalpha.com" Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> <56cbe12f-490a-6908-a865-ee3124421dae@joelhalpern.com> <6411A4FF-1484-45EF-B8B1-31AB3CE25F14@strayalpha.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <6411A4FF-1484-45EF-B8B1-31AB3CE25F14@strayalpha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:37:24 -0000 Joe, in all cases I know of when the WG chairs push the button to send a document to the IESG, what this causes is a review by the responsible AD. In many cases, the AD has questions he would like answers to before he pushes the button causing the IETF LC. Given that this is the typical case, I would expect to include it. Yours, Joel On 2/28/2022 11:21 AM, touch@strayalpha.com wrote: > Hi, Joel, > >> On Feb 27, 2022, at 10:13 PM, Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: >> >> I would have thought that the primary thread that would be useful to >> be shown for a draft is: >> >> Individual draft >> discussion and improvement >> WG adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs) >> discussion and improvement >> WG Last Call w/ discussion >> AD Review w/ discussion >> IETF Last Call w/ discussion >> IESG Approval w/ discussion >> editing >> Publication > > What’s the difference between AD review and the IESG step (isn’t that > Review with discussion)? > I.e, why not: > > Individual draft > discussion and improvement > WG adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs) > discussion and improvement > WG Last Call w/ discussion > *// remove: //* AD Review w/ discussion > IETF Last Call w/ discussion > IESG *//Review, changed from: Approval // *w/ discussion > editing > Publication > > >> With some notation somewhere that advancement along that sequence is >> not guaranteed. > > As a flowchart, it’s not just that things can fail to advance, but at > any point a doc can also be abandoned (i.e., exit the process). > > But those steps are often easier to indicate as a note, rather than arcs > everywhere. > > Joe > > From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:42:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6EE3A11DC; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:42:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uT2cSpuoWLbS; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF4C53A11D3; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0288871.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0288871.ppops.net-00191d01. 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88D10544EC7F4DD27F82D5B058AEDEF7A139AF5F1AC2691A318E2A13F334B2752 X-Proofpoint-GUID: SzyRinz_wHGz47x6XCxxe-LBP-VrzrPp X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: SzyRinz_wHGz47x6XCxxe-LBP-VrzrPp X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.64.514 definitions=2022-02-28_07,2022-02-26_01,2022-02-23_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202280087 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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ICA+IA0KICAgID4gQnV0IHRob3NlIHN0ZXBzIGFyZSBvZnRlbiBlYXNpZXIgdG8gaW5kaWNhdGUg YXMgYSBub3RlLCByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiBhcmNzIA0KICAgID4gZXZlcnl3aGVyZS4NCiAgICA+IA0K ICAgID4gSm9lDQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+IA0KICAgIF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgcmZjLWludGVyZXN0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAg IHJmYy1pbnRlcmVzdEByZmMtZWRpdG9yLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20v djMvX19odHRwczovL3d3dy5yZmMtZWRpdG9yLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3JmYy1pbnRl cmVzdF9fOyEhQmhkVCFnNF94WlgwQVlQVG14RGpaS2ZWeFowbjBMd01pOUd2MTR1bHNueVB4Wnd3 ZjlYVkFvd0VrNlhhOVcxaVNiLWdtYy1Mc19iWU8kIA0KDQo= From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:49:57 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CB43A0C32; Thu, 24 Feb 2022 14:24:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: The IESG To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, irtf-announce@irtf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, ietf@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: iesg@ietf.org Message-ID: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 14:24:19 -0800 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:49:56 -0800 Subject: [admin-discuss] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 22:24:20 -0000 The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to making all materials related to our standards process and other activities publicly available. For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the first submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once the document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between authors and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when applicable). In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manager, RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the conversation between authors and RFC editors. Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations, for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list. All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive. All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the mails’ content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be number, cluster number, sender, and date. Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival, by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don’t envision that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive information needs to be shared. The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text about public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcement, the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this thread by 24 March 2022. Francesca Palombini for the IESG From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:51:41 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6884C3A0C55; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:03:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zYPGAh7SZLRd; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C087E3A11F4; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id o26so4643800pgb.8; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:03:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language :thread-index; bh=cTjANEZJ2DUkYtiJnX5x/ib4el446ToP/rabRIeqVWg=; b=BTwFarNmxlqQsyClO+JXMceZB4u3GxhrPhPcC4LGQk38hfzeM9sLedJ1D8vGU8b+3T yJzQvdMrO9bKX+U84kt+pzKQQSaJfuAXIvAj/55ZT/TOflELa4tfT3KG6Y9fcW2CeLMz 8fbbSB9TM2py6JYSg56/uYryur3r5/rT0YwVtqQ94vabVTkBj4jmJOumIzakDd+0jTXJ Kg6rVIQyLRGe87vbjNROdtFkW5c+CzvwNAnEvnQmENmnNe2a4TX4MWJ18ESHxAeLu9U9 KU6lOiSDXFBVAvXjy6TGCYKx9IaftOTQP72NSgu2HXcja9uwDi2sWq+sRF2l99c4dqxJ qb9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject :date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-language:thread-index; bh=cTjANEZJ2DUkYtiJnX5x/ib4el446ToP/rabRIeqVWg=; b=K1clkgjksQNoZiedJVGBTi3PWO9iVdIaHzLD8NwtlnxWAmQpm/aV3r7e3OXLI05yta gKriFVcPxuFhfXPyZCtleYMMB4ea3+YwQjwUXIQc9LD1YHHkjs7FHiir7jSji9a+IewF xUnMMNlgUyOCQgA1diGxzwbWOEPoP5GG3rB+GqOoWKGuY+T5Me7QAgWvwakkEsqSjlf4 QpRxUOhyfM9vJB1G1Q2GpF3bu+A1ECs+nWwEFI3WXcj1KhH9RE4vFHIvqXnzBJYlnC9F a1ZU0kCBFOoswUwhasOalRCYu9ZrPgbyT6O2i16wPOItCFEe/bSA6oPfuovs4fUu/PKd f92A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532X/Uvm/aXDVbgeuYsQj1XghYep+HhQbuy/KQy2lnb2g4ig9att jYal3ktFSlpFSEwv/eGc8akTEz4SZleaQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyVxna6QVQBoCCzqrFm+9vYpvKt506gTGnKVb9LoCaTMXfdCe4LWS87ucwrSHJ/Mk4G1lMb4w== X-Received: by 2002:a63:375b:0:b0:374:915e:d893 with SMTP id g27-20020a63375b000000b00374915ed893mr7018514pgn.494.1645812206330; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from TVPC (c-73-158-116-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.158.116.21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u11-20020a056a00124b00b004e11307f8cdsm3780830pfi.86.2022.02.25.10.03.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:03:25 -0800 (PST) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'HANSEN, TONY L'" , "'Ted Hardie'" , "'Eric Rescorla'" Cc: "'IESG'" , "'IETF Announcement List'" , "'Working Group Chairs'" , , "'RFC Interest'" , , "'IETF'" References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> In-Reply-To: <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 10:03:25 -0800 Message-ID: <02c201d82a71$fd17b510$f7471f30$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQIcHXnEn+YLFcMUWzMfM3DBfHiTXwH6oj+wAgKRiswBbuFtJwGPpIf5q+THq6A= Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:51:41 -0800 Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 18:03:33 -0000 With the move to XML and renderings of a new RFC in different formats, = who is responsible for reviewing the different renderings for unintended = changes in meaning? If it's the authors, I'd hope that a change in = AUTH48 might offer some way to spread the burden. FWIW -- https://LarryMasinter.net https://interlisp.org > -----Original Message----- > From: rfc-interest On Behalf Of > HANSEN, TONY L > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 8:37 AM > To: Ted Hardie ; Eric Rescorla > Cc: IESG ; IETF Announcement List = ; > Working Group Chairs ; admin-discuss@ietf.org; RFC > Interest ; irtf-announce@irtf.org; IETF > > Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications >=20 > Perhaps there should be an auth48 mailing list per working group? It = would be > used for all auth48 interactions associated with the docs for that WG. = When a > doc from a WG enters auth48, a note would be sent to the WG indicating = the > location of that working group mailing list. Non-WG auth48 = interactions could > use a single non-WG mailing list. >=20 > I think this would satisfy both Ted's and Ekr's preferences. (Mine = too. :) ) >=20 > Advantages: >=20 > *) Separates the auth48 traffic away from the working group. > *) Separates the auth48 traffic for one WG from all other auth48 = traffic. > *) Reduces the number of mailing lists that need to be managed. > *) The mailing list could be moderated to only allow the auth48 = authors (and > RPC) to post to it, and only while their documents are in that state. > *) Allows someone who wants to follow the auth48 traffic for that WG = to do > so. > *) Doesn't force someone (who is interested in following the auth48 = traffic for > a given set of WGs) from seeing the back and forth for ALL WGs. >=20 > I think the last two bullets are particularly important. >=20 > Tony >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2/25/2022, 10:15 AM, "rfc-interest on behalf of Ted = Hardie" bounces@rfc-editor.org on behalf of ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 2:19 PM Eric Rescorla = wrote: > > > > While I think transparency is good, I think sending them through = the WG > list would be a mistake. > > > > In many cases there is a tremendous amount of back and forth = about > small details that I would prefer not to be bothered with for every WG = list I > am on. > > > > I don't object to a separate list that WG members could = subscribe to. > > > > -Ekr > > > This would work for me, and I think it is a nice parallel to the = way > the GH comment streams are set up in the working groups that use = them. > There is a separate list you can subscribe to, and it's your = choice as > to whether to intermingle that in your folders with the main WG = list. > I personally keep them nested under the main list, and I'd do the = same > here, but I like the flexibility this proposal offers. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:51:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CB83A141B; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:59:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uvNew_0wqtB7; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F38333A141A; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nOVJK-0005gA-MH; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:58:50 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 20:58:44 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Larry Masinter , "'HANSEN, TONY L'" , 'Ted Hardie' , 'Eric Rescorla' cc: 'Working Group Chairs' , admin-discuss@ietf.org, 'IETF' , 'RFC Interest' , 'IESG' , irtf-announce@irtf.org, 'IETF Announcement List' Message-ID: <0FD3012EE10E4D1DF8102DFC@PSB> In-Reply-To: <02c201d82a71$fd17b510$f7471f30$@acm.org> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <7C442BD6-F634-4129-9764-1BE29382D629@att.com> <02c201d82a71$fd17b510$f7471f30$@acm.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:51:41 -0800 Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 01:59:03 -0000 --On Friday, February 25, 2022 10:03 -0800 Larry Masinter wrote: > With the move to XML and renderings of a new RFC in different > formats, who is responsible for reviewing the different > renderings for unintended changes in meaning? If it's the > authors, I'd hope that a change in AUTH48 might offer some way > to spread the burden. > > FWIW Larry, based on the last document with which I went through AUTH48 (in the first half of 2020), it wasn't clear who, if anyone, was responsible for checking the different formats and renderings. Of course, the theory is that, if the XML is correct, everything else should take care of itself. I haven't felt it would be useful to try to push on that before the new model was in place although, back then, I hadn't dreamed it would take this long. But I agree with you that review should be done and that we need to think about how to do it, ideally without over-stretching or over-stressing the RPC. john From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:52:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6CC3A1318; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:52:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n37dAJH6XLLJ; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A7103A12F3; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K6mdJ5ZTKzDCdp; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:52:20 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1E549891-C08A-4C89-B322-B494F55C8A40@att.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:52:20 +0100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "touch@strayalpha.com" , Working Group Chairs , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , RFC Interest , IETF X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 667759940.346871-37bc35b89afc2e297549bad411d61b77 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4C0A4779-23FB-4CCD-8F27-48B7C8257CE0@tzi.org> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> <56cbe12f-490a-6908-a865-ee3124421dae@joelhalpern.com> <6411A4FF-1484-45EF-B8B1-31AB3CE25F14@strayalpha.com> <47df49b8-1013-bbeb-e13f-7ccc9c7b2be0@joelhalpern.com> <1E549891-C08A-4C89-B322-B494F55C8A40@att.com> To: "HANSEN, TONY L" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:52:28 -0000 On 2022-02-28, at 17:41, HANSEN, TONY L wrote: >=20 > If you're serious about this list, then I would change all of the "w/ = discussion" to "w/ discussion and improvement". :) Absolutely. Is the subject line still relevant this discussion? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 28 09:49:04 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479293A12AF; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:48:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gq0hjwyTZJGI; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBF463A13AC; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K6ntV5ZfxzDCcw; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:48:50 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:48:50 +0100 Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , John C Klensin X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 667763330.334217-1dc7a55c43169078dad0fef5bcb66a2e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <43D0E245-9ADA-49A2-8E3B-5605D0EB63F6@tzi.org> References: To: David Noveck X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [irsg] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:48:57 -0000 On 2022-02-28, at 10:55, David Noveck wrote: >=20 > I'd like to ask all ADs with documents beyond the AUTH1000 point to = investigate and suggest ways to address the issue for real. =20 Apart from the technical mismatches I just brought up, there also is a = scheduling problem. Doing AUTH48 even for a medium-sized document such = as RFC-to-be 9176 (60 PDF pages; 74 in TXT form) requires setting aside = some time. Today, the RPC is essentially a black box that suddenly = spews a significant work order at you. Not totally surprising (one can = look at the queue, look at average sojourn times, and make guesses), but = not plannable either. So in this case I decided to leave all the early AUTH48 work with the = main author/editor, and I will only come in when the document is nearly = stable, which has given me some time to weave this work into the = scheduling. But there just is no way to do this in less than 4 weeks = (which is still AUTH672, phew). If we plan to move towards a more author-friendly form of document = production, some interaction about scheduling the author work will need = to be added. And yes, =E2=80=9Ckein Plan =C3=BCberlebt den ersten Feindkontakt=E2=80=9D= =E2=80=A6 (*). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*): Actually, Moltke said =E2=80=9CKein Operationsplan reicht mit = einiger Sicherheit =C3=BCber das erste Zusammentreffen mit der = feindlichen Hauptmacht hinaus=E2=80=9D. Apparently, he didn=E2=80=99t = have an RPC helping him :-) From nobody Mon Feb 28 13:00:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA15F3A1511; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:00:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Mrt99uMY-jn; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:00:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com (mail-pl1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F9EA3A0105; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id z11so3379301pla.7; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:00:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AtNVJfImSbAdS0HXUMHg3g3eLXt+inOtWywn+fEPq98=; b=oXADBSw8R7vlKMAxtFM2RBh9ga/AnxBg5peMzkO3WVS7b4U5Ap8M173rFs6fT7m6Z4 zvlILUUiht6G3JM5M3Xq2FN82aHDdY915I4JSKd9r4y97cBF4k9USVkPK5m+ZLT0Hs/S F7c5WusLJl6eErz5MgDSOi57fqZFIyx1/6tdzOjF9A9hA436M/dPIkocGN1tTJQSwiCy GdCgraw3NcqTghntgQ/9D4XuvHEuiFqqsaIxe0Sim00AeCCtPlQPUmx9cnwSM6U0fuDV Ug5o3MBrV7oKwJYxceGrS+nDXWUzeHEsyKQDLzIg7w0As32YNhU2wVjoTE304rafTdAi Q8eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AtNVJfImSbAdS0HXUMHg3g3eLXt+inOtWywn+fEPq98=; b=ZkoQORCQL7UV1I+5Fk9q5qz2f8MY+zQgHtlYcyyJxNB7b2XwIINPDsQ5n1vnN94JGu JWb4NpBMiJFNkCNnihxfPlYicEJ0TJWniw+sLDHEJ5KvZsGLD9PinUxM2natISJCOrXZ KOzsg1QiyLxzj+wdARTUQuZEkm2/1EH37ROsyT4/0P67nGsR5GDaw9weLoavlMMY2K8U sa+xFihbNEYyFRcLoK9Ck13jeVKhLzwbKVn/f5gCrwonoNvR+Z2jC2uyRfzMyrqUJbig nFqJ3sSUp428EO99HhWih0+xFBdOZS7Wmw8H7nCvEI83UOesAUJpA1H/wLtouSDhL7vm xTMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5312Ip2kezKhFEIIywZN0NpSMtpMxo8ThBRPpMonfv8CTwNunnB8 IB/FaNDNwGpeVhSNRI/gyefjZxZ2zYpIlQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwd98ThWlA6u5NAoOxTiz0rgthaBLi4EBONEMjsmFTa4udE/aiVMkRMSltP2rRBfFTYwPl+Jg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3112:b0:1bc:44c2:461b with SMTP id gc18-20020a17090b311200b001bc44c2461bmr18505050pjb.60.1646082004614; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m6-20020a056a00080600b004e1bb196743sm15649920pfk.5.2022.02.28.13.00.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:00:03 -0800 (PST) To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF , Working Group Chairs References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> <56cbe12f-490a-6908-a865-ee3124421dae@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 09:59:59 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56cbe12f-490a-6908-a865-ee3124421dae@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 21:00:43 -0000 Sure, but getting all that in one diagram really requires a papyrus scroll. I'll leave that to a more accomplished digital artist. Regards Brian Carpenter On 28-Feb-22 19:13, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I would have thought that the primary thread that would be useful to be= > shown for a draft is: >=20 > Individual draft > discussion and improvement > WG adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs) > discussion and improvement > WG Last Call w/ discussion > AD Review w/ discussion > IETF Last Call w/ discussion > IESG Approval w/ discussion > editing > Publication >=20 > With some notation somewhere that advancement along that sequence is no= t > guaranteed. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 2/28/2022 1:03 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote: >> There are quite a few things missing. The challenge is where to stop, >> and how much detail do you want in tutorial diagram. >> >> Regards, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard) >> >> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022, 17:52 touch@strayalpha.com >> , > > wrote: >> >> I think you left out WGLC. >> >> Joe >> >> =E2=80=94 >> Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist >> www.strayalpha.com >> >>> On Feb 27, 2022, at 7:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 28-Feb-22 14:15, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> >>>> I think that 97% of how an internet-draft becomes an RFC will n= ot >>>> be changing >>>> as a result of the RSCE. >>> >>> I'd say 100%. I'm no good at videos or poetry, but I can work >>> LibreOffice. >>> An attempt at a diagram (two pages) is at >>> https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/id-flow.pdf >>> >>> As far as AUTH48 goes, it corresponds to current practice. >>> >>> I'm more than happy to put the source file on github if anybody'= s >>> interested. >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Brian >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rfc-interest mailing list >>> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org = >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest >>> >> From nobody Mon Feb 28 13:58:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6AF3A15C3; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AkscMuXp8yDW; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ej1-x633.google.com (mail-ej1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDABF3A133D; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:58:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-x633.google.com with SMTP id qa43so1066212ejc.12; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:58:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RIzxHM2+gPHj44cTLnkc/BVGPqgZNemD6MQzuSjBN60=; b=Slcxu3xihR0UWjoNkcymU23TcQoO61BSZWyErsS+oQnzlG7RQM/pKbWTfEhY1xoLxV j+vx5wk+e5awm8z497Ad+BPvjZGeX5zzIF/Dzyn74xNry/mmWDbWOAW+n0UIe2v80/ih CC/Ut1qSFeFE/ZVkhli7zcqYYe8n+85wTj4sMl/0rtRMVTnwCgyEz5OMxZQ63dQzZqBy TLi0UlypCyMMWa2VszysOequvDvlEKAzn+H/liHcgxBICSMLsnaTRJBZWdYYApoCoqo1 X+hGItIxmLE0CcpUExavpTOVvQE5a5eNwsS0ppVYQZS3+mBY6rkiwqQ6N8nUKazoW1nt 6l+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RIzxHM2+gPHj44cTLnkc/BVGPqgZNemD6MQzuSjBN60=; b=uywA6qVRJ8vp3+NLZrrGuw8tdK74IVSn8XuUhPjZPOh3cNm05VbRNKRYOETExX2mPv lyKquDz9k8BwAV3OXljybGb+RVLTsRHauCEoO0s0hM3SKnWTMkUawEEbmNd9HLf0L8kX fMmtsDkGbO3wPvGOvFHZkP0qOBKYvo1TmlInaIjcQwTtJpzfcRbfiuNHla/IL22o2sD3 ceFzzAdVx9ZcWEiW0A5SDKHBXlncWJSmanASgimpX//RlgH8YbIOZQW563dRiQVdZz6V PRhRT8G+ImAGWu1KVx4fb7M/h9rw5K/jJ3MQ38c2pfxgyttrPjPzvKSuRk3r7J+j1vGu UTug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532g7eHV9/vSmorYrm8M3LKA+wzS9qh5vTSw8BgGbBcgppF+evSK 8uq/ME94w3XwVTyEeNz1HbhjY7bsXlLLknBbjdk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRhSZtv4KRJnqvVwd1QQHfh52QkEZKkBFX5QzGVn+PiMrwJDUlUMdP9gBdgIiMGCM5hKKCm9Gl4Bj3aaPkyXc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:234a:b0:6ce:a6d4:1074 with SMTP id we10-20020a170907234a00b006cea6d41074mr17088914ejb.24.1646085515831; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:58:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28081.1646063116@localhost> In-Reply-To: <28081.1646063116@localhost> From: David Noveck Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:58:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000070ee3305d91b26a1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 21:58:43 -0000 --00000000000070ee3305d91b26a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, 10:46 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Perhaps the story of AUTH4200 could be more clearly communicated so that = we > can understand if it's an anomaly. > > My experience, for instance, with RFC8415 was that AUTH48 stretched into > 2-3 months, because > the length of the document meant that a few authors just couldn't find th= e > time to do the full review required. A full review should not be necessary. The only review should be of the changes made by the RFC editor. Perhaps the problem was that these were some excessive. I had the advantage for RFC of only having two authors. I wound up having to say "no we don't want to do that" a bunch of times but it didn't add too much time since my co-author was of the same opinion. A significant issue was that it had > spent a long time in the Q, and authors had swapped too much context out. > Ouch! > Basically, the best way to make it all work faster would be to just do it > faster :-) > Good luck with that. Part of the problem is that there is no clear definition of what the RFC editor is to do. I've found them helpful on commas and split infinitives and formatting issues. Was the problem that the RFC editor was trying to do too much? > > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consul= ting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > > > > > --00000000000070ee3305d91b26a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, 10:46 AM Michael Richardson <= mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Perhaps the story of AUTH4200 could be more clearly communicated so that we=
can understand if it's an anomaly.

My experience, for instance, with RFC8415 was that AUTH48 stretched into 2-= 3 months, because
the length of the document meant that a few authors just couldn't find = the
time to do the full review required.=C2=A0

A full review should not=C2=A0be nec= essary.=C2=A0 The only review should be of the changes made by the RFC edit= or.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Perhaps the problem was that these were some excessive.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0

I had the adv= antage for RFC of only having two authors.=C2=A0 I wound up having to say &= quot;no we don't want to do that" a bunch=C2=A0of times but it did= n't add too much time since my co-author was of the same opinion.
=

A significant issue was that it had
spent a long time in the Q, and authors had swapped too much context out.

Ou= ch!


Basically, the best way to make it all work faster would be to just do it faster=C2=A0 :-)

Good luck with that.=C2=A0

Part of the problem is that there is no clear definition= of what the RFC editor is to do.=C2=A0 I've found them helpful on comm= as and split infinitives and formatting issues.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Was the problem= that the RFC editor was trying to do too much?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>=C2=A0 = =C2=A0. o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulting )
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sandelman Software Works Inc, Otta= wa and Worldwide




--00000000000070ee3305d91b26a1-- From nobody Mon Feb 28 15:17:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843623A16D2; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:17:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HG-nRlfLT5Tg; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CBC63A16E6; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K6x9c46wbzDCbs; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 00:17:24 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 00:17:24 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <30A5489A-BD18-49CF-AB34-2E9B6E759B8C@tzi.org> References: <28081.1646063116@localhost> To: David Noveck X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:17:53 -0000 > A full review should not be necessary.=20 I wish that were true... > The only review should be of the changes made by the RFC editor. = Perhaps the problem was that these were some excessive. =20 The RFC editor often makes suggestions when text is unclear. In many cases these are great, in some cases these are wrong, but easily = corrected (or rejected). The interesting cases are where the authors then need to find out what = was actually meant. >> A significant issue was that it had >> spent a long time in the Q, and authors had swapped too much context = out. >>=20 > Ouch! Not just in the RFC editor queue (even though a MISSREF contributed a = year in my example), also in the IESG processing, which can be very = focused on narrow issues (and cause a lot of Brownian motion). Have a look at the graphics and history in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-resource-directory/ WGLC in 1H2019, IESG processing until early 2021, 1 year MISSREF=E2=80=A6 So it=E2=80=99s been three years since we did the final heavy lifting. Certainly swapped out by now. (And that was a very successful development, pretty cutting-edge when we = started it in 2011, with other SDOs then picking up on the way much of = the innovation in their own subset derivatives. It just took a lot of = time to get the nooks and crannies right, with several author changes = and job changes with the existing authors in that time.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Feb 28 15:24:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1483A1751; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:24:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.722 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.186, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zdoyp6AY1uvt; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8129F3A16EE; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 21SNOatv020703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:24:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:24:36 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Carsten Bormann Cc: David Noveck , Michael Richardson , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , Working Group Chairs Message-ID: <20220228232436.GF12881@kduck.mit.edu> References: <28081.1646063116@localhost> <30A5489A-BD18-49CF-AB34-2E9B6E759B8C@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30A5489A-BD18-49CF-AB34-2E9B6E759B8C@tzi.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:24:56 -0000 On Tue, Mar 01, 2022 at 12:17:24AM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > A full review should not be necessary. > > I wish that were true... IMO a full review is necessary, not least to ensure that the document remains self-consistent and that any changes applied during editing are uniformly applied to all relevant parts of the document, not just in the subset of places that the editor noticed. This is analogous to a situation that arises when doing code review. If you change an API's semantics, you had better go around and check all the callers of that API to see if they need adjustments, not just the callers of the API that your test suite happens to exercise. With specifications we do not have the rigid rules of function names to identify the places to check, and the safe thing to do is read the whole document with any changes that were made fresh in mind. -Ben From nobody Mon Feb 28 15:31:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC873A16FB; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:31:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T6zYIfot17BO; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from server217-1.web-hosting.com (server217-1.web-hosting.com [198.54.114.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FD033A16EE; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:31:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6XzsVL7uoYxUpoM6+TOMK+xANYEwzZ8nCqtibEjslLc=; b=MdjUuNlaCYxFVeyk3/aE9g2wVM JvWjPKvcq8vamaeXTE9QyRs/30fgg798i+mhILswGIYIsg1CATEMa8O/94J2/WnuVsAweckraQIn6 sZD707EOsJUBTQsSRYZ0+oYrn6Zk+jdnpo1Q2XnOrWdymPzw4127yCaYKOntU3r+2JIGOxtPulhL0 G1BRRI8Lusd8wm+XpeRK3eMw0wFn8mmPV7sslet3j2L6mpiKE8jquvOztU8mDT/XFYMiLXHLP2ohO F+KB9KlE06LZ3YXsXGiboeanVVFbNG8zT2xXRzJ7n7V0spWL/1jChYoBzlvmGBZcNSR3jEFZy4IEP LplDFp2g==; Received: from cpe-172-114-237-88.socal.res.rr.com ([172.114.237.88]:63736 helo=smtpclient.apple) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOpU4-002Fjq-Io; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:31:21 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E3D6D7F3-427D-4F87-8B8B-E1FADCB9C8D4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: "touch@strayalpha.com" In-Reply-To: <47df49b8-1013-bbeb-e13f-7ccc9c7b2be0@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:31:10 -0800 Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF Message-Id: References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> <56cbe12f-490a-6908-a865-ee3124421dae@joelhalpern.com> <6411A4FF-1484-45EF-B8B1-31AB3CE25F14@strayalpha.com> <47df49b8-1013-bbeb-e13f-7ccc9c7b2be0@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Public archival of AUTH48 communications X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 23:31:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E3D6D7F3-427D-4F87-8B8B-E1FADCB9C8D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Joel, Thanks; I forgot about this step largely because most of my drafts have = been either in the AD=E2=80=99s master WG or a WG the AD was chairing = anyway. However, I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s a formal step (I can=E2=80=99t = seem to find it listed as such anywhere). AFAICT, it=E2=80=99s just a = courtesy vs IETF LC or IESG review. Joe =E2=80=94 Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Feb 28, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > Joe, in all cases I know of when the WG chairs push the button to send = a document to the IESG, what this causes is a review by the responsible = AD. In many cases, the AD has questions he would like answers to before = he pushes the button causing the IETF LC. Given that this is the = typical case, I would expect to include it. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 2/28/2022 11:21 AM, touch@strayalpha.com wrote: >> Hi, Joel, >>> On Feb 27, 2022, at 10:13 PM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >>>=20 >>> I would have thought that the primary thread that would be useful to = be shown for a draft is: >>>=20 >>> Individual draft >>> discussion and improvement >>> WG adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs) >>> discussion and improvement >>> WG Last Call w/ discussion >>> AD Review w/ discussion >>> IETF Last Call w/ discussion >>> IESG Approval w/ discussion >>> editing >>> Publication >> What=E2=80=99s the difference between AD review and the IESG step = (isn=E2=80=99t that Review with discussion)? >> I.e, why not: >> Individual draft >> discussion and improvement >> WG adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs) >> discussion and improvement >> WG Last Call w/ discussion >> *// remove: //* AD Review w/ discussion >> IETF Last Call w/ discussion >> IESG *//Review, changed from: Approval // *w/ discussion >> editing >> Publication >>> With some notation somewhere that advancement along that sequence is = not guaranteed. >> As a flowchart, it=E2=80=99s not just that things can fail to = advance, but at any point a doc can also be abandoned (i.e., exit the = process). >> But those steps are often easier to indicate as a note, rather than = arcs everywhere. >> Joe --Apple-Mail=_E3D6D7F3-427D-4F87-8B8B-E1FADCB9C8D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Joel,

Thanks; I forgot about this step largely because most of my = drafts have been either in the AD=E2=80=99s master WG or a WG the AD was = chairing anyway.

However, I=E2=80=99m not sure it=E2=80=99s a formal step (I = can=E2=80=99t seem to find it listed as such anywhere). AFAICT, it=E2=80=99= s just a courtesy vs IETF LC or IESG review.

Joe
=E2=80=94
Dr. Joe Touch, = temporal epistemologist
www.strayalpha.com

On Feb 28, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>= wrote:

Joe, in all cases I know of when the WG chairs push the = button to send a document to the IESG, what this causes is a review by = the responsible AD.  In many cases, the AD has questions he would = like answers to before he pushes the button causing the IETF LC. =  Given that this is the typical case, I would expect to include = it.

Yours,
Joel

On 2/28/2022 11:21 AM, touch@strayalpha.com = wrote:
Hi, Joel,
On Feb 27, 2022, at = 10:13 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
I would have thought that the primary thread that would be = useful to be shown for a draft is:

Individual= draft
discussion and improvement
WG = adoption (no details, just that it usually occurs)
discussion and improvement
WG Last Call w/ = discussion
AD Review w/ discussion
IETF Last = Call w/ discussion
IESG Approval w/ discussion
editing
Publication
What=E2=80=99s the difference between AD review = and the IESG step (isn=E2=80=99t that Review with discussion)?
I.e, why not:
   Individual = draft
   discussion and improvement
   WG adoption (no details, just that it = usually occurs)
   discussion and = improvement
   WG Last Call w/ = discussion
   *// remove: //* AD Review w/ = discussion
   IETF Last Call w/ = discussion
   IESG *//Review, changed = from: Approval // *w/ discussion
=    editing
=    Publication
With some notation somewhere that advancement along that = sequence is not guaranteed.
As a flowchart, = it=E2=80=99s not just that things can fail to advance, but at any point = a doc can also be abandoned (i.e., exit the process).
But = those steps are often easier to indicate as a note, rather than arcs = everywhere.
Joe

= --Apple-Mail=_E3D6D7F3-427D-4F87-8B8B-E1FADCB9C8D4-- From nobody Mon Feb 28 16:11:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC623A175B; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:11:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RD4NAqh4XsxP; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 792333A1756; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nOq6e-0007dN-9a; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 19:11:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 19:11:01 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Benjamin Kaduk , Carsten Bormann cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , Michael Richardson , RFC Interest , David Noveck Message-ID: <2A01FEB814E084C123CA52BE@PSB> In-Reply-To: <20220228232436.GF12881@kduck.mit.edu> References: <28081.1646063116@localhost> <30A5489A-BD18-49CF-AB34-2E9B6E759B8C@tzi.org> <20220228232436.GF12881@kduck.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 00:11:19 -0000 --On Monday, February 28, 2022 15:24 -0800 Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > On Tue, Mar 01, 2022 at 12:17:24AM +0100, Carsten Bormann > wrote: >> > A full review should not be necessary. >> >> I wish that were true... > > IMO a full review is necessary, not least to ensure that the > document remains self-consistent and that any changes applied > during editing are uniformly applied to all relevant parts of > the document, not just in the subset of places that the editor > noticed. > > This is analogous to a situation that arises when doing code > review. If you change an API's semantics, you had better go > around and check all the callers of that API to see if they > need adjustments, not just the callers of the API that your > test suite happens to exercise. With specifications we do not > have the rigid rules of function names to identify the places > to check, and the safe thing to do is read the whole document > with any changes that were made fresh in mind. Carsten, (1) Full agreement with Ben. I'd add that, long ago, we went directly from IESG approval to the RFC Editor to publication without an intervening check like AUTH48. The check was instituted after the IESG and community were very unhappy with how a few documents came out of that process. (2) The alternative to something very much like AUTH48 (as Ben describes it) is to hand the document over to the RPC when we (the IESG or a WG) would otherwise decide it was ready for Last Call, get it edited into final form (plus or minus RFC rather than I-D boilerplate), and then do the Last Call and IESG review on the edited and finished document. Of course that means that, if _any_ substantive changes show up during or after Last Call, the document would need to be edited again and go through Last Call again. After noting that some other SDOs do things quite similar to that, the community has looked at similar options several times and concluded that the additional time and costs it would introduce are just not worth it. Certainly the odds that it would save time relative to the current model are very low. At least most times when people have argued for going down that path in the past, the argument as been that it would improve quality. Whether that is true or not, and whether the quality improvements would be worth the costs, would probably depend on how closely IETF participants look at those supposedly final documents. john From nobody Mon Feb 28 16:32:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: admin-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1AE3A13E9; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:32:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZtkKhLgoD6rZ; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7749D3A0BC7; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id v4so12641213pjh.2; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:32:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nymMFOamxg6V/hFV/tRwO/0VbXMKMktLyhbk6g6zDyg=; b=JJ3D3+wLnDrmMggMEBPbcwNDhRVc9uQo3hfPBcOoFN7+cEn2oS692adRMtFicFob+1 JXCQsOwwZsQ+lgl3OaPDqd1ry+FMyajnp0L5oK6vghPZ52EdX9YAlwXbKhpWj7jfZ0li RWluCXpp8DkcCZVdImmUJBN1hFHHYiqOO48C+kgAsshqo8rGMCqPkBze+Tz/yJABb4Jj zWm2DIqIs7CpBDAHB6I5O2XpN9xoGbzxFg4h2Tgl9dYRd42yQ1mljVcWkwxmXyiNvkDq edlmHpAHob+ISNf9jFJ/7OngSRDUsDe4vq/ULAflRtDeXtN0qNr+zDZh8ag/skFC02Ll UYSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nymMFOamxg6V/hFV/tRwO/0VbXMKMktLyhbk6g6zDyg=; b=yU6/y3rF8iaJUCGH3bDx+jCq2Mg2NmM/efZWFdE6U9Gj3owmYmoC96d0T7pIm2sQ0D BiNeUtLFyC/L9nqRqjWRh3MlX6nJn8dr2099ZrU1CymQY5eeoZj4kwva4h2D40EN7XDJ PwPovESLq5u6O6fg50k//OVjOyhLUFY+V81GfgCI6GlaCsPYrA6x/8YBSREJiHqM+76w IYsgwggi9457XW4w1KUxV337+6NXQf9GtNxpk6/UZlysjKYAc21J+aZDJQulFUT7TPw2 QS1iIo3qGtcGGo/w/wgqIFCa50TVNZUITtqzmHhzrOqRUpXuSA6BNUQLXyVYVCOffVD+ G8pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533977ZrRmDuTUPONj3foQbqo+X/lg6wRjmomuuYtgmvpIrjtx8G PsfORzOPBzyfYLbFjjtOFkwS/3rJo4oT4w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyBre5+Ty3FQgE0sC6cQOSf0+nYb/vpZYaF7tK8UinS478T7aQpL0b8HNkFAq62JDtauKbA6w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a989:b0:14f:969b:f6b6 with SMTP id bh9-20020a170902a98900b0014f969bf6b6mr22293915plb.15.1646094756634; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e20-20020a17090ab39400b001bc4f9ad3cbsm447603pjr.3.2022.02.28.16.32.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:32:36 -0800 (PST) To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , RFC Interest , IETF , Working Group Chairs References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <621A22A4.600@btconnect.com> <129618.1645912712@dooku> <130138.1645913240@dooku> <15355.1646010905@localhost> <45d46659-a5b4-0eeb-b5b1-d1ae2515fe03@gmail.com> <425E11D9-8036-47C2-BEA6-A72BD43A06CC@strayalpha.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7ff1e4a1-8501-98d0-bb2e-324d08e23e77@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:32:31 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [admin-discuss] Diagram? [Public archival of AUTH48 communications] X-BeenThere: admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 00:32:39 -0000 On 01-Mar-22 03:57, Salz, Rich wrote: > Not having looked at the diagram, I am curious what this offers that is=20 =E2=80=9Cbetter=E2=80=9D (for some definition, you pick) than RFC 2028-bi= s or the IETF Tao? I don't think either of those addresses the specific question of what are=20 the stages in the path from a -00 individual draft to a published RFC. And a diagram/flow chart with an attached text commentary would be useful=20 material for newcomers. A video version might be a nice touch, but with a=20 bit more content than "I'm just a bill". Another topic for EMO to discuss, I think. Brian