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From: "Peter Lewis" <peter.lewis@upperside.fr>
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Subject: [Adslmib] TVoDSL 2004 CONFERENCE
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=20
TVoDSL 2004 CONFERENCE
Broadcasting TV content over ADSL

As ADSL access becomes more widespread, new markets for this technology =
will start to materialize.=20
TV over ADSL is one of them. Major manufacturing, economic and =
regulatory players in this area will share their experience at the =
TVoDSL Conference, to take place in Paris on January 20 to 23, 2004.=20
=20
A call for proposal is online at:
http://www.upperside.fr/tvodsl04/tvodsl04intro.htm


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3Dtitreune>TVoDSL 2004 =
CONFERENCE</SPAN><BR><SPAN=20
class=3Dtextebold>Broadcasting TV content over ADSL</SPAN><BR><FONT=20
class=3Dtextebold><BR></FONT>As ADSL access becomes more widespread, new =
markets=20
for this technology will start to materialize. <BR>TV over ADSL is one =
of them.=20
Major manufacturing, economic and regulatory players in this area will =
share=20
their experience at the TVoDSL Conference, to take place in Paris on =
<SPAN=20
class=3Dunderline>January 20 to 23, 2004</SPAN>. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A call for proposal is online at:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.upperside.fr/tvodsl04/tvodsl04intro.htm">http://www.up=
perside.fr/tvodsl04/tvodsl04intro.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
To: Flemisch Felix <felix.flemisch@siemens.com>
Cc: "'adslmib@ietf.org'" <adslmib@ietf.org>,
        "'rajesh.abbi@alcatel.com'"
	 <rajesh.abbi@alcatel.com>,
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Subject: [Adslmib] RE: dsl2002.298 and SCM LCS MIB
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Felix,
Sorry about not responding to this quickly.
I do not receive email from the ietf? list. Do I need to subscribe to some
email list or perhaps you can forward relevant correspondence, as you did
earlier.

I am glad to hear that not including line code specific parameters in the
basic MIB is still a valid course. 
I also agree that we have missed a couple of generic parameters that specify
the configuration of the interleaver and the RS frame. 

The missed parameters should be needed not only for SCM but MCM as well.

The first parameter should be called "target burst protection" and it
applies only to the Slow channel (Interleaved, if you like) 
I included the qualifier "target" because the selection of linecode specific
intleaver parameters would try to achieve this target, but the result could
end up being lower or higher. 
The parameter applies independently to Upstream and Downstream.
I prefer the unit microseconds, because the values are sub-ms. A reasonable
range would be 0 to 1000 microseconds in 20 microsecond increments. 

The other parameter should be called "Maximum redundancy overhead" and it
applies only to the Fast channel (Not interleaved, if you like). 
I included the qualifier "maximum" because the selection of linecode
specific framing parameters would use no more, but equal to or less than
this percentage, in determining the number of FEC octets. 
The parameter applies independently to Upstream and Downstream. 
The % unit is OK. The reasonable range would be 0 to 50% in 1% increments.

If this is agreed so far, we can provide a detailed description. 

Sabit
NLC
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Flemisch Felix [mailto:felix.flemisch@siemens.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:42 PM
To: 'ssay@nlc.com'
Cc: 'adslmib@ietf.org'
Subject: dsl2002.298 and SCM LCS MIB



Hello Sabit,

Moti Morgenstern wrote on Sunday 02 March 2003 (see msg00178.html):

"For the VDSL, the DSLF decided to extract the line code specific parameters
from the basic MIB only after the members reviewed a contribution from NLC
(dsl2002.298) claiming that SCM specific parameters can be determined
according to other, generic type, parameters. The problem is that the DSLF
discovered only recently that few of those generic parameters are not
present in the MIB so configuring a SCM line is impossible without
additional parameters.
So, I suggest adding the two generic parameters Overhead (%) and Burst
Protection (ms) to the MIB, in order to allow determining the Fast Codeword
Size and FEC Size for SCM links."


But Moti is not aware of the semantics of the proposed parameters
(see msg00191.html):  "NLC ... to ... provide soon the definitions
for the two alternative parameters they mentioned (i.e.,
overhead-percentage and burst protection)".

Therefore, I would like to ask you, Sabit, to resolve asap these issues
and the following questions and request of mine (see msg00183.html):

Are you proposing to add the parameters vdslChanOverhead (UNITS "%") and
vdslChanBurstProtection (UNITS "ms") to VdslChanEntry, which shall be not
for ifType interleave(124)?  Please provide a formal DESCRIPTION and how
they
are used for SCM lines.  After adding these two parameters, is it then clear
that basic configuration of SCM lines is possible, or might something else
be needed or useful?

If this is the case, and since these extensions are compatible with TR-057
and RFC 2662, I agree to add them to IETF's VDSL MIB and don't see any
reason
why anybody should not agree.

Best regards,

Felix Flemisch
--------------------------------------
SIEMENS AG
Information and Communication Networks
Carrier Products Systems Engineering
Hofmannstr. 51
D-81359 Munich
Tel    +49 89 722 62175
e-Mail felix.flemisch@siemens.com
--------------------------------------
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From mailnull@www1.ietf.org  Fri Apr 18 10:09:47 2003
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From: "Bob Ray" <rray@pesa.com>
To: <adslmib@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:11:29 -0500
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Subject: [Adslmib] -08 revision
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I've submitted the -08 revision to the internet drafts editor.
As far as I know, all that is missing are the definitions for two 
objects:

    vdslChanOverhead
    vdshChanBurstProtection

I put "TBD" in the definitions for now.  I believe Felix Flemisch
issued a request for these definitions over a month ago.  I echo
this request.  

If anyone needs a copy before the draft editor gets it posted,
please let me know!  

Regards,
Bob Ray
PESA Switching Systems

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From: Flemisch Felix <felix.flemisch@siemens.com>
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Hi Sabit and Ray,

thanks, Ray, for the awaited update.

From my point of view the best thing would be if you two get together immediately to replace the TBD parts in -08 by proper contents (and inform the internet drafts editor that an update is on its way).  I had some questions on the issue but they seem not easy to be answered by e-mail.

Sabit, you announced to provide a detailed description (see attachment).

Thanks,
Felix
(on holiday until 28 April)

From: "Bob Ray" <rray@pesa.com>
To: <adslmib@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:11:29 -0500
Subject: [Adslmib] -08 revision

I've submitted the -08 revision to the internet drafts editor.
As far as I know, all that is missing are the definitions for two 
objects:

    vdslChanOverhead
    vdshChanBurstProtection

I put "TBD" in the definitions for now.  I believe Felix Flemisch
issued a request for these definitions over a month ago.  I echo
this request.  

If anyone needs a copy before the draft editor gets it posted,
please let me know!  

Regards,
Bob Ray
PESA Switching Systems



------_=_NextPart_000_01C3063D.231DC0B0
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Description: RE: dsl2002.298 and SCM LCS MIB

Message-ID: <50859C0B9DE9D411811F009027B11DAC015D3F4D@exchange4.nlc.com>
From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
To: Flemisch Felix <felix.flemisch@siemens.com>
Cc: "'adslmib@ietf.org'" <adslmib@ietf.org>, "'rajesh.abbi@alcatel.com'"
	 <rajesh.abbi@alcatel.com>, "'moti.morgenstern@inoviatele.com'"
	 <moti.morgenstern@inoviatele.com>, "'rray@pesa.com'" <rray@pesa.com>, 
	"'sneedmike@hotmail.com'" <sneedmike@hotmail.com>, 
	"'greg.bathrick@nokia.com'" <greg.bathrick@nokia.com>, Boll Norbert
	 <norbert.boll@siemens.com>, Forster Josef <josef.forster@siemens.com>
Subject: RE: dsl2002.298 and SCM LCS MIB
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:17:08 +0200 
Return-Receipt-To: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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	charset="ISO-8859-1"

Felix,
Sorry about not responding to this quickly.
I do not receive email from the ietf? list. Do I need to subscribe to some
email list or perhaps you can forward relevant correspondence, as you did
earlier.

I am glad to hear that not including line code specific parameters in the
basic MIB is still a valid course. 
I also agree that we have missed a couple of generic parameters that specify
the configuration of the interleaver and the RS frame. 

The missed parameters should be needed not only for SCM but MCM as well.

The first parameter should be called "target burst protection" and it
applies only to the Slow channel (Interleaved, if you like) 
I included the qualifier "target" because the selection of linecode specific
intleaver parameters would try to achieve this target, but the result could
end up being lower or higher. 
The parameter applies independently to Upstream and Downstream.
I prefer the unit microseconds, because the values are sub-ms. A reasonable
range would be 0 to 1000 microseconds in 20 microsecond increments. 

The other parameter should be called "Maximum redundancy overhead" and it
applies only to the Fast channel (Not interleaved, if you like). 
I included the qualifier "maximum" because the selection of linecode
specific framing parameters would use no more, but equal to or less than
this percentage, in determining the number of FEC octets. 
The parameter applies independently to Upstream and Downstream. 
The % unit is OK. The reasonable range would be 0 to 50% in 1% increments.

If this is agreed so far, we can provide a detailed description. 

Sabit
NLC
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Flemisch Felix [mailto:felix.flemisch@siemens.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:42 PM
To: 'ssay@nlc.com'
Cc: 'adslmib@ietf.org'
Subject: dsl2002.298 and SCM LCS MIB



Hello Sabit,

Moti Morgenstern wrote on Sunday 02 March 2003 (see msg00178.html):

"For the VDSL, the DSLF decided to extract the line code specific parameters
from the basic MIB only after the members reviewed a contribution from NLC
(dsl2002.298) claiming that SCM specific parameters can be determined
according to other, generic type, parameters. The problem is that the DSLF
discovered only recently that few of those generic parameters are not
present in the MIB so configuring a SCM line is impossible without
additional parameters.
So, I suggest adding the two generic parameters Overhead (%) and Burst
Protection (ms) to the MIB, in order to allow determining the Fast Codeword
Size and FEC Size for SCM links."


But Moti is not aware of the semantics of the proposed parameters
(see msg00191.html):  "NLC ... to ... provide soon the definitions
for the two alternative parameters they mentioned (i.e.,
overhead-percentage and burst protection)".

Therefore, I would like to ask you, Sabit, to resolve asap these issues
and the following questions and request of mine (see msg00183.html):

Are you proposing to add the parameters vdslChanOverhead (UNITS "%") and
vdslChanBurstProtection (UNITS "ms") to VdslChanEntry, which shall be not
for ifType interleave(124)?  Please provide a formal DESCRIPTION and how
they
are used for SCM lines.  After adding these two parameters, is it then clear
that basic configuration of SCM lines is possible, or might something else
be needed or useful?

If this is the case, and since these extensions are compatible with TR-057
and RFC 2662, I agree to add them to IETF's VDSL MIB and don't see any
reason
why anybody should not agree.

Best regards,

Felix Flemisch
--------------------------------------
SIEMENS AG
Information and Communication Networks
Carrier Products Systems Engineering
Hofmannstr. 51
D-81359 Munich
Tel    +49 89 722 62175
e-Mail felix.flemisch@siemens.com
--------------------------------------

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the ADSL MIB Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Definitions of Managed Objects for Very High Speed 
                          Digital Subscriber Lines (VDSL)
	Author(s)	: B. Ray, R. Abbi
	Filename	: draft-ietf-adslmib-vdsl-08.txt
	Pages		: 65
	Date		: 2003-4-18
	
This document defines a Management Information Base (MIB) module for 
use with network management protocols in the Internet community.  In 
particular, it describes objects used for managing Very high speed
Digital Subscriber Line (VDSL) interfaces [T1E1311, T1E1011, T1E1013,
ETSI2701, ETSI2702, ITU9931].
This document specifies a MIB module in a manner that is compliant 
to the SMIv2 (STD 58 [RFC2578, RFC2579, RFC2580]).

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Hi.

I propose that I remove the two objects

    vdslChanBurstProtection
    vdslChanOverhead

from the -08 draft (producing a -09 draft) and move
it ahead in the queue.  Haven't heard any comments or
suggestions in several weeks, so I guess no one really
cares about the two objects (i.e. they are unimportant).

If I don't hear any objections in the next day or so,
I'll get -09 out.

-- 
Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>

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Subject: Re: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
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Hi Bob,

The main reason all SCM specific parameters were removed from the model is
because there was an input from NLC to the DSLF (dsl2003.298) showing that
with the existing generic parameters plus (new) vdslChanBurstProtection and
vdslChanOverhead, one can configure a SCM line. So we should choose between
including the generic parameters, according to Sabit's mail from 7-Apr-03,
and the SCM parameters (vdslSCMConfProfileFastCodewordSize and
vdslSCMConfProfileFastFecSize) according to your mail from 27-Mar-03.

We cannot leave outside both the original and the alternative parameters,
because there is no one who claims it is possible to configure a SCM link
that way.

Best regards,
Moti Morgenstern

Senior Systems Engineer
ECI Telecoms Ltd.
Inovia Broadband Access Division
30 Hasivim St.
Petach Tikva, Israel 49133
Tel.: +972-3-9266258
Fax: +972-3-9268182
Cell: +972-55-786258
e-mail: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
www.ecitele.com



                                                                                                                                       
                      Bob Ray <rray@                                                                                                   
                      pesa.com>                To:      adslmib mail list <adslmib@ietf.org>                                           
                      Sent by:                 cc:                                                                                     
                      adslmib-admin@           Subject: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question                                                     
                      ietf.org                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       
                      28/04/03 22:16                                                                                                   
                      Please respond                                                                                                   
                      to rray                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       



Hi.

I propose that I remove the two objects

    vdslChanBurstProtection
    vdslChanOverhead

from the -08 draft (producing a -09 draft) and move
it ahead in the queue.  Haven't heard any comments or
suggestions in several weeks, so I guess no one really
cares about the two objects (i.e. they are unimportant).

If I don't hear any objections in the next day or so,
I'll get -09 out.

--
Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>

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Subject: Re: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
From: Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>
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To: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
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On Tue, 2003-04-29 at 01:42, Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> The main reason all SCM specific parameters were removed from the model is
> because there was an input from NLC to the DSLF (dsl2003.298) showing that
> with the existing generic parameters plus (new) vdslChanBurstProtection and
> vdslChanOverhead, one can configure a SCM line. So we should choose between
> including the generic parameters, according to Sabit's mail from 7-Apr-03,
> and the SCM parameters (vdslSCMConfProfileFastCodewordSize and
> vdslSCMConfProfileFastFecSize) according to your mail from 27-Mar-03.
> 
> We cannot leave outside both the original and the alternative parameters,
> because there is no one who claims it is possible to configure a SCM link
> that way.
> 
> Best regards,
> Moti Morgenstern
> 

Hi Moti.

I asked the list for two sentences (DESCRIPTION for these two objects).
On the assumption SOMEONE/ANYONE would provide them, I removed all
the other LCS objects from the draft.

Since NO ONE has provided the two sentences in the two months since
Felix first asked for them, and three weeks since I first asked for
them, I assumed no one cared whether they were in or not.  Hence,
my post.

As I understand the process, these two sentences are all that is
keeping us from moving these two drafts to the RFC editor queue.
Which is what I want to do.

I did not see the presentation from NLC.  One would think that they
would be happy to provide the DESCRIPTIONs, no?


-- 
Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
To: rray@pesa.com
Cc: adslmib@ietf.org, "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
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Bob,

First we had a comprehensive solution in IETF based on LCS parameters. Then
came NLC (actually they convinced the DSLF) and said it's better to use
generic parameters. This is obviously a better solution once you have the
detailed definitions.

The PROBLEM is that Sabit doesn't receive email from the IETF (as he wrote
on 18-Apr-2003).

Therefore I added Sabit on CC and suggest that:
- Sabit will add himself to the list :-)
- Sabit (or his colleague) will at last find the time to provide the
detailed spec of those two generic parameters.

If nothing happens, we should return to the two "old and good" SCM specific
parameters (for which we already have detailed definitions) and move them
to the main profile table. They can and should be conditionally mandatory
for SCM applications.

Bye,
Moti Morgenstern

Senior Systems Engineer
ECI Telecoms Ltd.
Inovia Broadband Access Division
30 Hasivim St.
Petach Tikva, Israel 49133
Tel.: +972-3-9266258
Fax: +972-3-9268182
Cell: +972-55-786258
e-mail: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
www.ecitele.com



                                                                                                                                       
                      Bob Ray <rray@                                                                                                   
                      pesa.com>                To:      Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com                                                   
                                               cc:      adslmib mail list <adslmib@ietf.org>                                           
                      29/04/03 16:22           Subject: Re: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question                                                 
                      Please respond                                                                                                   
                      to rray                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       



On Tue, 2003-04-29 at 01:42, Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com wrote:
[snipped my original email]

Hi Moti.

I asked the list for two sentences (DESCRIPTION for these two objects).
On the assumption SOMEONE/ANYONE would provide them, I removed all
the other LCS objects from the draft.

Since NO ONE has provided the two sentences in the two months since
Felix first asked for them, and three weeks since I first asked for
them, I assumed no one cared whether they were in or not.  Hence,
my post.

As I understand the process, these two sentences are all that is
keeping us from moving these two drafts to the RFC editor queue.
Which is what I want to do.

I did not see the presentation from NLC.  One would think that they
would be happy to provide the DESCRIPTIONs, no?


--
Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>





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Adslmib mailing list
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To: rray@pesa.com, Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
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Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:58:36 -0700
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If this is all you need:

vdslChanOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Gauge32
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-only
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Channel overhead applies independently to downstream and
upstream directions, and only to fast channel. It indicates the percentage
of redundant octets to the total FEC block. The range is 0 to 100. In the
case where the ifType is interleave(124), use noSuchObject."
        ::= { vdslChanEntry 4 }

    vdslChanBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Gauge32
        UNITS        "0.005 ms"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-only
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Channel burst protection applies independently to downstream
and upstream, and only to interleave (slow) channel. It indicates the
correctable burst size with the interleaver settings. The range is 0 to
1.275 ms. In the case where the ifType is fast(125), use noSuchObject."
        ::= { vdslChanEntry 5 }


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ray [mailto:rray@pesa.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:22 AM
To: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
Cc: adslmib mail list
Subject: Re: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question


On Tue, 2003-04-29 at 01:42, Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> The main reason all SCM specific parameters were removed from the model is
> because there was an input from NLC to the DSLF (dsl2003.298) showing that
> with the existing generic parameters plus (new) vdslChanBurstProtection
and
> vdslChanOverhead, one can configure a SCM line. So we should choose
between
> including the generic parameters, according to Sabit's mail from 7-Apr-03,
> and the SCM parameters (vdslSCMConfProfileFastCodewordSize and
> vdslSCMConfProfileFastFecSize) according to your mail from 27-Mar-03.
> 
> We cannot leave outside both the original and the alternative parameters,
> because there is no one who claims it is possible to configure a SCM link
> that way.
> 
> Best regards,
> Moti Morgenstern
> 

Hi Moti.

I asked the list for two sentences (DESCRIPTION for these two objects).
On the assumption SOMEONE/ANYONE would provide them, I removed all
the other LCS objects from the draft.

Since NO ONE has provided the two sentences in the two months since
Felix first asked for them, and three weeks since I first asked for
them, I assumed no one cared whether they were in or not.  Hence,
my post.

As I understand the process, these two sentences are all that is
keeping us from moving these two drafts to the RFC editor queue.
Which is what I want to do.

I did not see the presentation from NLC.  One would think that they
would be happy to provide the DESCRIPTIONs, no?


-- 
Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>

_______________________________________________
Adslmib mailing list
Adslmib@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/adslmib
_______________________________________________
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From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
To: rray@pesa.com, adslmib mail list <adslmib@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
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Bob,

But I did send this email about my agrement to the two objects and provided
some details. If no objections, I can complete the definitions, but I am not
fluent in MIB definitions so somebody who does needs to help me. 

So, you should not remove them. The alternative of putting back the line
code specific parameters is totally unacceptable. The best way is to move
forward, with these two parameters properly defined.

Sabit


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ray [mailto:rray@pesa.com]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 3:16 PM
To: adslmib mail list
Subject: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question


Hi.

I propose that I remove the two objects

    vdslChanBurstProtection
    vdslChanOverhead

from the -08 draft (producing a -09 draft) and move
it ahead in the queue.  Haven't heard any comments or
suggestions in several weeks, so I guess no one really
cares about the two objects (i.e. they are unimportant).

If I don't hear any objections in the next day or so,
I'll get -09 out.

-- 
Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>

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Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Description: RE: dsl2002.298 and SCM LCS MIB

From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
To: Flemisch Felix <felix.flemisch@siemens.com>
Cc: "'adslmib@ietf.org'" <adslmib@ietf.org>, "'rajesh.abbi@alcatel.com'"
	 <rajesh.abbi@alcatel.com>, "'moti.morgenstern@inoviatele.com'"
	 <moti.morgenstern@inoviatele.com>, "'rray@pesa.com'" <rray@pesa.com>, 
	"'sneedmike@hotmail.com'" <sneedmike@hotmail.com>, 
	"'greg.bathrick@nokia.com'" <greg.bathrick@nokia.com>, Boll Norbert
	 <norbert.boll@siemens.com>, Forster Josef <josef.forster@siemens.com>
Subject: RE: dsl2002.298 and SCM LCS MIB
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:13:31 -0700 
Return-Receipt-To: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
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Felix,
Sorry about not responding to this quickly.
I do not receive email from the ietf? list. Do I need to subscribe to some
email list or perhaps you can forward relevant correspondence, as you did
earlier.

I am glad to hear that not including line code specific parameters in the
basic MIB is still a valid course. 
I also agree that we have missed a couple of generic parameters that specify
the configuration of the interleaver and the RS frame. 

The missed parameters should be needed not only for SCM but MCM as well.

The first parameter should be called "target burst protection" and it
applies only to the Slow channel (Interleaved, if you like) 
I included the qualifier "target" because the selection of linecode specific
intleaver parameters would try to achieve this target, but the result could
end up being lower or higher. 
The parameter applies independently to Upstream and Downstream.
I prefer the unit microseconds, because the values are sub-ms. A reasonable
range would be 0 to 1000 microseconds in 20 microsecond increments. 

The other parameter should be called "Maximum redundancy overhead" and it
applies only to the Fast channel (Not interleaved, if you like). 
I included the qualifier "maximum" because the selection of linecode
specific framing parameters would use no more, but equal to or less than
this percentage, in determining the number of FEC octets. 
The parameter applies independently to Upstream and Downstream. 
The % unit is OK. The reasonable range would be 0 to 50% in 1% increments.

If this is agreed so far, we can provide a detailed description. 

Sabit
NLC
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Flemisch Felix [mailto:felix.flemisch@siemens.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:42 PM
To: 'ssay@nlc.com'
Cc: 'adslmib@ietf.org'
Subject: dsl2002.298 and SCM LCS MIB



Hello Sabit,

Moti Morgenstern wrote on Sunday 02 March 2003 (see msg00178.html):

"For the VDSL, the DSLF decided to extract the line code specific parameters
from the basic MIB only after the members reviewed a contribution from NLC
(dsl2002.298) claiming that SCM specific parameters can be determined
according to other, generic type, parameters. The problem is that the DSLF
discovered only recently that few of those generic parameters are not
present in the MIB so configuring a SCM line is impossible without
additional parameters.
So, I suggest adding the two generic parameters Overhead (%) and Burst
Protection (ms) to the MIB, in order to allow determining the Fast Codeword
Size and FEC Size for SCM links."


But Moti is not aware of the semantics of the proposed parameters
(see msg00191.html):  "NLC ... to ... provide soon the definitions
for the two alternative parameters they mentioned (i.e.,
overhead-percentage and burst protection)".

Therefore, I would like to ask you, Sabit, to resolve asap these issues
and the following questions and request of mine (see msg00183.html):

Are you proposing to add the parameters vdslChanOverhead (UNITS "%") and
vdslChanBurstProtection (UNITS "ms") to VdslChanEntry, which shall be not
for ifType interleave(124)?  Please provide a formal DESCRIPTION and how
they
are used for SCM lines.  After adding these two parameters, is it then clear
that basic configuration of SCM lines is possible, or might something else
be needed or useful?

If this is the case, and since these extensions are compatible with TR-057
and RFC 2662, I agree to add them to IETF's VDSL MIB and don't see any
reason
why anybody should not agree.

Best regards,

Felix Flemisch
--------------------------------------
SIEMENS AG
Information and Communication Networks
Carrier Products Systems Engineering
Hofmannstr. 51
D-81359 Munich
Tel    +49 89 722 62175
e-Mail felix.flemisch@siemens.com
--------------------------------------

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Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
From: Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>
Reply-To: rray@pesa.com
To: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
Cc: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com, adslmib mail list <adslmib@ietf.org>
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That's it!  Thanks.

Bob Ray

On Tue, 2003-04-29 at 17:58, Say, Sabit wrote:
> If this is all you need:
> 
> vdslChanOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Gauge32
>         UNITS        "%"
>         MAX-ACCESS   read-only
>         STATUS       current
>         DESCRIPTION
>             "Channel overhead applies independently to downstream and
> upstream directions, and only to fast channel. It indicates the percentage
> of redundant octets to the total FEC block. The range is 0 to 100. In the
> case where the ifType is interleave(124), use noSuchObject."
>         ::= { vdslChanEntry 4 }
> 
>     vdslChanBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Gauge32
>         UNITS        "0.005 ms"
>         MAX-ACCESS   read-only
>         STATUS       current
>         DESCRIPTION
>             "Channel burst protection applies independently to downstream
> and upstream, and only to interleave (slow) channel. It indicates the
> correctable burst size with the interleaver settings. The range is 0 to
> 1.275 ms. In the case where the ifType is fast(125), use noSuchObject."
>         ::= { vdslChanEntry 5 }
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Ray [mailto:rray@pesa.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:22 AM
> To: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
> Cc: adslmib mail list
> Subject: Re: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2003-04-29 at 01:42, Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com wrote:
> > Hi Bob,
> > 
> > The main reason all SCM specific parameters were removed from the model is
> > because there was an input from NLC to the DSLF (dsl2003.298) showing that
> > with the existing generic parameters plus (new) vdslChanBurstProtection
> and
> > vdslChanOverhead, one can configure a SCM line. So we should choose
> between
> > including the generic parameters, according to Sabit's mail from 7-Apr-03,
> > and the SCM parameters (vdslSCMConfProfileFastCodewordSize and
> > vdslSCMConfProfileFastFecSize) according to your mail from 27-Mar-03.
> > 
> > We cannot leave outside both the original and the alternative parameters,
> > because there is no one who claims it is possible to configure a SCM link
> > that way.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Moti Morgenstern
> > 
> 
> Hi Moti.
> 
> I asked the list for two sentences (DESCRIPTION for these two objects).
> On the assumption SOMEONE/ANYONE would provide them, I removed all
> the other LCS objects from the draft.
> 
> Since NO ONE has provided the two sentences in the two months since
> Felix first asked for them, and three weeks since I first asked for
> them, I assumed no one cared whether they were in or not.  Hence,
> my post.
> 
> As I understand the process, these two sentences are all that is
> keeping us from moving these two drafts to the RFC editor queue.
> Which is what I want to do.
> 
> I did not see the presentation from NLC.  One would think that they
> would be happy to provide the DESCRIPTIONs, no?
-- 
Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>

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Hi Sabit,

Thanks for the input.  I have a few suggestions for the definitions provided by you
below.

* vdslChanBurstProtection :
    - Suggest rename to vdslChanMinInterleaveBurstProtection
        Note: It is impractical to specify a specific/exact value.  Also, ITU-T G.997.1
        defines the parameter as "7.3.2.3 Minimum Impulse Noise Protection".
    - Suggest using micro-seconds as units.
    - Suggested DESCRIPTION:
        "This parameter provisions the minimum level of impulse noise (burst) protection the
          Interleaver associated with the Interleave (Slow) channel should maintain.  This
          parameter is not applicable to the Fast channel (noSuchObject should be returned)."

* vdslChanOverhead :
    - Suggest rename to vdslChanMaxFastFecOverhead:
        Note: Once again it is impractical to require exact values for this.
    - The range should be much smaller, 1..50% is more than adequate.  It would be absurd
        to have this 100% ;-).
    - Suggested DESCRIPTION:
        "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward Error Correction (FEC)
         redundancy releated overhead to be maintained for the Fast channel.  This parameter
         is not applicable to the Interleave (Slow) channel (noSuchObject should be returned)."

Note: No need to indicate that the parameters apply independently in up/downstream directions
since that is implied by the MIB (indexed by vdslPhysSide).

Regards,

Rajesh

Bob Ray wrote:

> That's it!  Thanks.
>
> Bob Ray
>
> On Tue, 2003-04-29 at 17:58, Say, Sabit wrote:
> > If this is all you need:
> >
> > vdslChanOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
> >         SYNTAX       Gauge32
> >         UNITS        "%"
> >         MAX-ACCESS   read-only
> >         STATUS       current
> >         DESCRIPTION
> >             "Channel overhead applies independently to downstream and
> > upstream directions, and only to fast channel. It indicates the percentage
> > of redundant octets to the total FEC block. The range is 0 to 100. In the
> > case where the ifType is interleave(124), use noSuchObject."
> >         ::= { vdslChanEntry 4 }
> >
> >     vdslChanBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
> >         SYNTAX       Gauge32
> >         UNITS        "0.005 ms"
> >         MAX-ACCESS   read-only
> >         STATUS       current
> >         DESCRIPTION
> >             "Channel burst protection applies independently to downstream
> > and upstream, and only to interleave (slow) channel. It indicates the
> > correctable burst size with the interleaver settings. The range is 0 to
> > 1.275 ms. In the case where the ifType is fast(125), use noSuchObject."
> >         ::= { vdslChanEntry 5 }
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob Ray [mailto:rray@pesa.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:22 AM
> > To: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
> > Cc: adslmib mail list
> > Subject: Re: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2003-04-29 at 01:42, Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com wrote:
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > The main reason all SCM specific parameters were removed from the model is
> > > because there was an input from NLC to the DSLF (dsl2003.298) showing that
> > > with the existing generic parameters plus (new) vdslChanBurstProtection
> > and
> > > vdslChanOverhead, one can configure a SCM line. So we should choose
> > between
> > > including the generic parameters, according to Sabit's mail from 7-Apr-03,
> > > and the SCM parameters (vdslSCMConfProfileFastCodewordSize and
> > > vdslSCMConfProfileFastFecSize) according to your mail from 27-Mar-03.
> > >
> > > We cannot leave outside both the original and the alternative parameters,
> > > because there is no one who claims it is possible to configure a SCM link
> > > that way.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Moti Morgenstern
> > >
> >
> > Hi Moti.
> >
> > I asked the list for two sentences (DESCRIPTION for these two objects).
> > On the assumption SOMEONE/ANYONE would provide them, I removed all
> > the other LCS objects from the draft.
> >
> > Since NO ONE has provided the two sentences in the two months since
> > Felix first asked for them, and three weeks since I first asked for
> > them, I assumed no one cared whether they were in or not.  Hence,
> > my post.
> >
> > As I understand the process, these two sentences are all that is
> > keeping us from moving these two drafts to the RFC editor queue.
> > Which is what I want to do.
> >
> > I did not see the presentation from NLC.  One would think that they
> > would be happy to provide the DESCRIPTIONs, no?
> --
> Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Adslmib@ietf.org
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From: "Bob Ray" <rray@pesa.com>
To: "Rajesh Abbi" <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>
Cc: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>, <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>,
        "adslmib mail list" <adslmib@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:44:43 -0500
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Rajesh suggests:

>    - Suggested DESCRIPTION:
>        "This parameter provisions the minimum level of impulse noise
(burst) protection the
>          Interleaver associated with the Interleave (Slow) channel should
maintain.  This
>          parameter is not applicable to the Fast channel (noSuchObject
should be returned)."
<snip>
>        "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward Error
Correction (FEC)
>         redundancy releated overhead to be maintained for the Fast
channel.  This parameter
>         is not applicable to the Interleave (Slow) channel (noSuchObject
should be returned)."

Please note that

a) these objects are in the channel table
b) these objects are not persistent
c) these objects are read-only
d) there is no 'provisioning' going on with these objects

If these need to be moved to the profile table, please speak up now!!!!

Bob Ray

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Hi.

I've received email suggesting that I change all occurrences of
'1024' to 1000.  Similarly, to note that 1 kbps = 1000 bps, not
1024 bps.

Anyone have any objection to this change?

Regards,
Bob Ray

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Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
To: "Bob Ray" <rray@pesa.com>
Cc: adslmib@ietf.org, Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com, ssay@nlc.com
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Bob,

Sorry, but the term "shocked" quite describes what I feel. Thank you Bob
for indicating this possible disaster.

Once again (not for you Bob but for other people):

The idea was that it is possible to remove the LCS CONFIGURATION section
and use other, existing and generic CONFIGURATION parameters for
CONFIGURING SCM links. The problem was that there were two LCS
CONFIGURATION parameters that could not be removed unless we define
alternative generic CONFIGURATION parameters.

The two new parameters should be part of the CONFIGURATION profile and it
should be possible in the profile to assign different values per each
transmission direction (what we call upstream and downstream).  It is also
obvious that the new parameters are persistent as all other profile
details. The only difference between the two new parameters and other
profile parameters is that the two new parameters are used only for SCM
links' CONFIGURATION. That's the only difference.

I don't mind (or even be glad) if, IN ADDITION to those two CONFIGURATION
parameters, the IETF memebers find it appropriate to add read-only
parameters that provide the actual values achieved during synchronization.

Best regards,
Moti Morgenstern

Senior Systems Engineer
ECI Telecoms Ltd.
Inovia Broadband Access Division
30 Hasivim St.
Petach Tikva, Israel 49133
Tel.: +972-3-9266258
Fax: +972-3-9268182
Cell: +972-55-786258
e-mail: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
www.ecitele.com



                                                                                                                                       
                      "Bob Ray" <rray@                                                                                                 
                      pesa.com>                To:      "Rajesh Abbi" <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>                                        
                                               cc:      "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>, <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>, "adslmib mail     
                      30/04/03 17:44           list" <adslmib@ietf.org>                                                                
                                               Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question                                                 
                                                                                                                                       



Rajesh suggests:

>    - Suggested DESCRIPTION:
>        "This parameter provisions the minimum level of impulse noise
(burst) protection the
>          Interleaver associated with the Interleave (Slow) channel should
maintain.  This
>          parameter is not applicable to the Fast channel (noSuchObject
should be returned)."
<snip>
>        "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward Error
Correction (FEC)
>         redundancy releated overhead to be maintained for the Fast
channel.  This parameter
>         is not applicable to the Interleave (Slow) channel (noSuchObject
should be returned)."

Please note that

a) these objects are in the channel table
b) these objects are not persistent
c) these objects are read-only
d) there is no 'provisioning' going on with these objects

If these need to be moved to the profile table, please speak up now!!!!

Bob Ray





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I guess while looking at the trees we lost track of the "forest" ;-).

These parameters do need to be added to the vdslLineConfProfileTable
with following changes:

vdslChanBurstProtection would become:
    - vdslLineConfDownstreamMinSlowBurstProtection (RW)
    - vdslLineConfUpstreamMinSlowBurstProtection (RW)

vdslChanOverhead would become:
    - vdslLineConfDownstreamMaxFastFecOverhead (RW)
    - vdslLineConfUpstreamMaxFastFecOverhead (RW)

Regards,

Rajesh

Bob Ray wrote:

> Rajesh suggests:
>
> >    - Suggested DESCRIPTION:
> >        "This parameter provisions the minimum level of impulse noise
> (burst) protection the
> >          Interleaver associated with the Interleave (Slow) channel should
> maintain.  This
> >          parameter is not applicable to the Fast channel (noSuchObject
> should be returned)."
> <snip>
> >        "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward Error
> Correction (FEC)
> >         redundancy releated overhead to be maintained for the Fast
> channel.  This parameter
> >         is not applicable to the Interleave (Slow) channel (noSuchObject
> should be returned)."
>
> Please note that
>
> a) these objects are in the channel table
> b) these objects are not persistent
> c) these objects are read-only
> d) there is no 'provisioning' going on with these objects
>
> If these need to be moved to the profile table, please speak up now!!!!
>
> Bob Ray
>
> _______________________________________________
> Adslmib mailing list
> Adslmib@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/adslmib

_______________________________________________
Adslmib mailing list
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From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
To: Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>, Adslmib <adslmib@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Adslmib] units changing
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:22:20 -0700
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No objections. I was a little disturbed to see that defined as 1024.
Reminded me of the kibi discussion in the recent IEEE 802 meeting.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ray [mailto:rray@pesa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:47 AM
To: Adslmib
Subject: [Adslmib] units changing


Hi.

I've received email suggesting that I change all occurrences of
'1024' to 1000.  Similarly, to note that 1 kbps = 1000 bps, not
1024 bps.

Anyone have any objection to this change?

Regards,
Bob Ray

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From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
To: Rajesh Abbi <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>, Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>
Cc: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>, Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com,
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Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
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Can I suggest a change?

vdslChanBurstProtection would become:
    - vdslLineConfDownstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection (RW)
    - vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection (RW)

The reason is that you might end up more or less, not necessarily more.

Also the read-only ACTUAL values could be:
	- vdslLineDownstreamSlowBurstProtection (R)
	- vdslLineUpstreamSlowBurstProtection (R)


For completeness:
vdslChanOverhead would become:
    - vdslLineConfDownstreamMaxFastFecOverhead (RW)
    - vdslLineConfUpstreamMaxFastFecOverhead (RW)

and read-only
    - vdslLineownstreamFastFecOverhead (R)
    - vdslLineUpstreamFastFecOverhead (R)

This time, the actual value is always less or equal to configured. 



-----Original Message-----
From: Rajesh Abbi [mailto:Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:35 AM
To: Bob Ray
Cc: Say, Sabit; Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com; adslmib mail list
Subject: Re: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question


I guess while looking at the trees we lost track of the "forest" ;-).

These parameters do need to be added to the vdslLineConfProfileTable
with following changes:

vdslChanBurstProtection would become:
    - vdslLineConfDownstreamMinSlowBurstProtection (RW)
    - vdslLineConfUpstreamMinSlowBurstProtection (RW)

vdslChanOverhead would become:
    - vdslLineConfDownstreamMaxFastFecOverhead (RW)
    - vdslLineConfUpstreamMaxFastFecOverhead (RW)

Regards,

Rajesh

Bob Ray wrote:

> Rajesh suggests:
>
> >    - Suggested DESCRIPTION:
> >        "This parameter provisions the minimum level of impulse noise
> (burst) protection the
> >          Interleaver associated with the Interleave (Slow) channel
should
> maintain.  This
> >          parameter is not applicable to the Fast channel (noSuchObject
> should be returned)."
> <snip>
> >        "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward Error
> Correction (FEC)
> >         redundancy releated overhead to be maintained for the Fast
> channel.  This parameter
> >         is not applicable to the Interleave (Slow) channel (noSuchObject
> should be returned)."
>
> Please note that
>
> a) these objects are in the channel table
> b) these objects are not persistent
> c) these objects are read-only
> d) there is no 'provisioning' going on with these objects
>
> If these need to be moved to the profile table, please speak up now!!!!
>
> Bob Ray
>
> _______________________________________________
> Adslmib mailing list
> Adslmib@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/adslmib
_______________________________________________
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From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
To: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com, Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>
Cc: adslmib@ietf.org, Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com, ssay@nlc.com
Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question
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Sorry for my ignorance re: actual MIB definitions.

I totally agree with Moti that these two should be configuration parameters.
I thought they would be somehow (magically) be both read-only and
configurable.
Anyway, it also helps that they are reported. 
And now thinking clearer, the descriptions should be slightly different, one
configuring a max or target, and the other one reading the actual used by
the PMD layer.

Also I have to disagree on the difference and point out that these are
needed NOT ONLY for configuring SCM but also MCM.  

I think now I have to read the whole MIB and suggest more input on these.



-----Original Message-----
From: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com [mailto:Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:10 AM
To: Bob Ray
Cc: adslmib@ietf.org; Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com; ssay@nlc.com
Subject: RE: [Adslmib] vdsl-08 question



Bob,

Sorry, but the term "shocked" quite describes what I feel. Thank you Bob
for indicating this possible disaster.

Once again (not for you Bob but for other people):

The idea was that it is possible to remove the LCS CONFIGURATION section
and use other, existing and generic CONFIGURATION parameters for
CONFIGURING SCM links. The problem was that there were two LCS
CONFIGURATION parameters that could not be removed unless we define
alternative generic CONFIGURATION parameters.

The two new parameters should be part of the CONFIGURATION profile and it
should be possible in the profile to assign different values per each
transmission direction (what we call upstream and downstream).  It is also
obvious that the new parameters are persistent as all other profile
details. The only difference between the two new parameters and other
profile parameters is that the two new parameters are used only for SCM
links' CONFIGURATION. That's the only difference.

I don't mind (or even be glad) if, IN ADDITION to those two CONFIGURATION
parameters, the IETF memebers find it appropriate to add read-only
parameters that provide the actual values achieved during synchronization.

Best regards,
Moti Morgenstern

Senior Systems Engineer
ECI Telecoms Ltd.
Inovia Broadband Access Division
30 Hasivim St.
Petach Tikva, Israel 49133
Tel.: +972-3-9266258
Fax: +972-3-9268182
Cell: +972-55-786258
e-mail: Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com
www.ecitele.com



 

                      "Bob Ray" <rray@

                      pesa.com>                To:      "Rajesh Abbi"
<Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>                                        
                                               cc:      "Say, Sabit"
<ssay@nlc.com>, <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>, "adslmib mail     
                      30/04/03 17:44           list" <adslmib@ietf.org>

                                               Subject: RE: [Adslmib]
vdsl-08 question                                                 
 




Rajesh suggests:

>    - Suggested DESCRIPTION:
>        "This parameter provisions the minimum level of impulse noise
(burst) protection the
>          Interleaver associated with the Interleave (Slow) channel should
maintain.  This
>          parameter is not applicable to the Fast channel (noSuchObject
should be returned)."
<snip>
>        "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward Error
Correction (FEC)
>         redundancy releated overhead to be maintained for the Fast
channel.  This parameter
>         is not applicable to the Interleave (Slow) channel (noSuchObject
should be returned)."

Please note that

a) these objects are in the channel table
b) these objects are not persistent
c) these objects are read-only
d) there is no 'provisioning' going on with these objects

If these need to be moved to the profile table, please speak up now!!!!

Bob Ray




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From: "Bob Ray" <rray@pesa.com>
To: "Rajesh Abbi" <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>
Cc: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>, <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>,
        "adslmib mail list" <adslmib@ietf.org>
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Following are the working object declarations.  Let me know if I've
got them right.  Please.

Bob Ray

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


    vdslChanCurrFastFecOverhead  OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Gauge32 
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-only
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Actual Forward Error Correction (FEC) redundancy 
            related overhead for a fast channel.  This parameter
            is not applicable to an interleaved (slow) channel.
            For interleaved channels, noSuchObject should be returned."
        ::= { vdslChanEntry 4 }

    vdslChanCurrSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Gauge32 
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-only
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Actual level of impulse noise (burst) protection 
            for an interleaved (slow) channel.  This parameter is 
            not applicable to fast channels.  For fast channels, 
            noSuchObject should be returned."
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslChanEntry 5 }

    vdslLineConfDownstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..1275)
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Specifies the target level of impulse noise (burst) 
            protection for an interleaved (slow) channel."
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 41 }

    vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32  (0..1275)
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Specifies the target level of impulse noise (burst) 
            protection for an interleaved (slow) channel."
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 42 }

    vdslLineConfDownstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..50)
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward
            Error Correction (FEC) redundancy related overhead to
            be maintained for the Fast channel."
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 43 }

    vdslLineConfUpstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..50)
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward
            Error Correction (FEC) redundancy related overhead to
            be maintained for the Fast channel."
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 44 }

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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Adslmib] six objects
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Hi -

> From: "Bob Ray" <rray@pesa.com>
> To: "Rajesh Abbi" <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>
> Cc: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>; <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>; "adslmib mail list" <adslmib@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:58 AM
> Subject: [Adslmib] six objects
...
>     vdslChanCurrFastFecOverhead  OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Gauge32

Given that the units are "%", shouldn't the range be constrained
to 0..100?

...
>             For interleaved channels, noSuchObject should be returned."

For the SNMP toolkits I'm familiar with, this would be a pain to implement.
Given the semantics of the object, I think it would be better to replace this
line with

+             For interleaved channels, a value of zero shall be returned."

...
>     vdslChanCurrSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
...
>             not applicable to fast channels.  For fast channels,
>             noSuchObject should be returned."

Similarly, I think "zero shall be returned" would be better here.

...
>     vdslLineConfDownstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE

Would a DEFVAL make sense here, or is the intent that this MUST be
supplied for the row to be activated?

...
>     vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE

Would a DEFVAL make sense here?  Must this be set for the
row to go active?

...
>     vdslLineConfDownstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE

DEFVAL?

...
>     vdslLineConfUpstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
...

DEFVAL?

Randy


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From: Rajesh Abbi <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>
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Bob/Sabit,

I still wonder about the "xxxTargetSlowBurstProtection".  The only reason someone
would set it is to provide a minimum protection level.  If the result is more or less then
it is almost meaningless.  Even the ITU-T G.997.1 parameter (as referenced) is
"Minimum Impulse Protection".

Rest looks good.

Thanks,

Rajesh

Bob Ray wrote:

> Following are the working object declarations.  Let me know if I've
> got them right.  Please.
>
> Bob Ray
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     vdslChanCurrFastFecOverhead  OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Gauge32
>         UNITS        "%"
>         MAX-ACCESS   read-only
>         STATUS       current
>         DESCRIPTION
>             "Actual Forward Error Correction (FEC) redundancy
>             related overhead for a fast channel.  This parameter
>             is not applicable to an interleaved (slow) channel.
>             For interleaved channels, noSuchObject should be returned."
>         ::= { vdslChanEntry 4 }
>
>     vdslChanCurrSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Gauge32
>         UNITS        "microseconds"
>         MAX-ACCESS   read-only
>         STATUS       current
>         DESCRIPTION
>             "Actual level of impulse noise (burst) protection
>             for an interleaved (slow) channel.  This parameter is
>             not applicable to fast channels.  For fast channels,
>             noSuchObject should be returned."
>         REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
>         ::= { vdslChanEntry 5 }
>
>     vdslLineConfDownstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..1275)
>         UNITS        "microseconds"
>         MAX-ACCESS   read-create
>         STATUS       current
>         DESCRIPTION
>             "Specifies the target level of impulse noise (burst)
>             protection for an interleaved (slow) channel."
>         REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
>         ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 41 }
>
>     vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Unsigned32  (0..1275)
>         UNITS        "microseconds"
>         MAX-ACCESS   read-create
>         STATUS       current
>         DESCRIPTION
>             "Specifies the target level of impulse noise (burst)
>             protection for an interleaved (slow) channel."
>         REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
>         ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 42 }
>
>     vdslLineConfDownstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..50)
>         UNITS        "%"
>         MAX-ACCESS   read-create
>         STATUS       current
>         DESCRIPTION
>             "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward
>             Error Correction (FEC) redundancy related overhead to
>             be maintained for the Fast channel."
>         ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 43 }
>
>     vdslLineConfUpstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
>         SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..50)
>         UNITS        "%"
>         MAX-ACCESS   read-create
>         STATUS       current
>         DESCRIPTION
>             "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward
>             Error Correction (FEC) redundancy related overhead to
>             be maintained for the Fast channel."
>         ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 44 }
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Adslmib] six objects - redux
From: Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>
Reply-To: rray@pesa.com
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Cc: adslmib mail list <adslmib@ietf.org>, Sabit Say <ssay@nlc.com>,
        Moti Morgenstern <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>,
        Rajesh Abbi <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>
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	 <002501c30f43$ecaa11e0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer>
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Randy asks:

a) Given that the units are "%", shouldn't the range be constrained to
0..100?

It should have SOME constraint.  Ok to use 0..50 per Rajesh's
suggestion?

b) For the SNMP toolkits I'm familiar with, this would be a pain to
implement.  Given the semantics of the object, I think it would be
better to replace this line with
+  For interleaved channels, a value of zero shall be returned."

Ok.

c) Would a DEFVAL make sense here, or is the intent that this MUST be
supplied for the row to be activated?

I've put in DEFVALs of { 0 } for these.  I don't know of a way to
specify two default values - some value in 1..50 (or 1..1275) if 
appropriate and 0 if not.  So, I guess 0 works.  Complaints from the
crowd?

Suitably modified objects below.

Bob Ray 


--------------------------------------------------------


    vdslChanCurrFastFecOverhead  OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Gauge32 (0..50)
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-only
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Actual Forward Error Correction (FEC) redundancy 
            related overhead for a fast channel.  This parameter
            is not applicable to an interleaved (slow) channel.
            For interleaved channels, a value zero should be returned."
        ::= { vdslChanEntry 4 }

    vdslChanCurrSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Gauge32 (0..1275)
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-only
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Actual level of impulse noise (burst) protection 
            for an interleaved (slow) channel.  This parameter is 
            not applicable to fast channels.  For fast channels, 
            a value of zero should be returned."
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslChanEntry 5 }

    vdslLineConfDownstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..1275)
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Specifies the target level of impulse noise (burst) 
            protection for an interleaved (slow) channel."
        DEFVAL       { 0 }
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 41 }

    vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32  (0..1275)
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Specifies the target level of impulse noise (burst) 
            protection for an interleaved (slow) channel."
        DEFVAL       { 0 }
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 42 }

    vdslLineConfDownstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..50)
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward
            Error Correction (FEC) redundancy related overhead to
            be maintained for the Fast channel."
        DEFVAL       { 0 }
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 43 }

    vdslLineConfUpstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..50)
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward
            Error Correction (FEC) redundancy related overhead to
            be maintained for the Fast channel."
        DEFVAL       { 0 }
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 44 }

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From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
To: rray@pesa.com, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Cc: adslmib mail list <adslmib@ietf.org>, Sabit Say <ssay@nlc.com>,
        Moti Morgenstern <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>,
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Subject: RE: [Adslmib] six objects - redux
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Correct this and you are done:
vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE

other comments for clarification:

1) Is it clear from the range and the variable type that the 0-1275 range is
in increments of 5 [microseconds]? 

2) 0 to 50 for % overhead makes sense.
Or if you do not want any range checking, you can define it as 0 to 63.75 in
0.25 increments.

3) For the burst protection configuration, target is more appropriate as you
now have it, similar to SNR margin. Notice that the main measure of SNR
margin is also a target. It may not be achieved, but the PMD layer will try
to obtain it. That means you may ask whatever you want but may not get it;
but if you do not get it, initialization will not fail. 

4) The reported parameters do not have upstream/downstream attached to them,
but I presume they can be reported for both. Is that correct?


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ray [mailto:rray@pesa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:17 PM
To: Randy Presuhn
Cc: adslmib mail list; Sabit Say; Moti Morgenstern; Rajesh Abbi
Subject: Re: [Adslmib] six objects - redux


Randy asks:

a) Given that the units are "%", shouldn't the range be constrained to
0..100?

It should have SOME constraint.  Ok to use 0..50 per Rajesh's
suggestion?

b) For the SNMP toolkits I'm familiar with, this would be a pain to
implement.  Given the semantics of the object, I think it would be
better to replace this line with
+  For interleaved channels, a value of zero shall be returned."

Ok.

c) Would a DEFVAL make sense here, or is the intent that this MUST be
supplied for the row to be activated?

I've put in DEFVALs of { 0 } for these.  I don't know of a way to
specify two default values - some value in 1..50 (or 1..1275) if 
appropriate and 0 if not.  So, I guess 0 works.  Complaints from the
crowd?

Suitably modified objects below.

Bob Ray 


--------------------------------------------------------


    vdslChanCurrFastFecOverhead  OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Gauge32 (0..50)
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-only
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Actual Forward Error Correction (FEC) redundancy 
            related overhead for a fast channel.  This parameter
            is not applicable to an interleaved (slow) channel.
            For interleaved channels, a value zero should be returned."
        ::= { vdslChanEntry 4 }

    vdslChanCurrSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Gauge32 (0..1275)
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-only
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Actual level of impulse noise (burst) protection 
            for an interleaved (slow) channel.  This parameter is 
            not applicable to fast channels.  For fast channels, 
            a value of zero should be returned."
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslChanEntry 5 }

    vdslLineConfDownstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..1275)
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Specifies the target level of impulse noise (burst) 
            protection for an interleaved (slow) channel."
        DEFVAL       { 0 }
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 41 }

    vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32  (0..1275)
        UNITS        "microseconds"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "Specifies the target level of impulse noise (burst) 
            protection for an interleaved (slow) channel."
        DEFVAL       { 0 }
        REFERENCE    "ITU-T G.997.1"          -- section 7.3.2.3
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 42 }

    vdslLineConfDownstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..50)
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward
            Error Correction (FEC) redundancy related overhead to
            be maintained for the Fast channel."
        DEFVAL       { 0 }
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 43 }

    vdslLineConfUpstreamMaxFastFecOverhead OBJECT-TYPE
        SYNTAX       Unsigned32 (0..50)
        UNITS        "%"
        MAX-ACCESS   read-create
        STATUS       current
        DESCRIPTION
            "This parameter provisions the maximum level of Forward
            Error Correction (FEC) redundancy related overhead to
            be maintained for the Fast channel."
        DEFVAL       { 0 }
        ::= { vdslLineConfProfileEntry 44 }
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "adslmib mail list" <adslmib@ietf.org>
References: <50859C0B9DE9D411811F009027B11DAC015D40FF@exchange4.nlc.com>
Subject: Re: [Adslmib] six objects - redux
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:46:27 -0700
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Hi -

> From: "Say, Sabit" <ssay@nlc.com>
> To: <rray@pesa.com>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "adslmib mail list" <adslmib@ietf.org>; "Sabit Say" <ssay@nlc.com>; "Moti Morgenstern" <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>; "Rajesh
Abbi" <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 1:13 PM
> Subject: RE: [Adslmib] six objects - redux
...
> 1) Is it clear from the range and the variable type that the 0-1275 range is
> in increments of 5 [microseconds]?

Neither the DESCRIPTION nor the SYNTAX as currently written imposes
such a constraint.  Are you saying that a request to set this variable to
a value of 4 must be rejected?

> 2) 0 to 50 for % overhead makes sense.
> Or if you do not want any range checking, you can define it as 0 to 63.75 in
> 0.25 increments.

The current definition would not permit anything other than whole number
values.  If supporting 0.25 increments is important, then the UNITS should
reflect this so the values can be scaled appropriately.  Also, which is
the *real* architectural upper bound, 50 or 63.75?

...

Randy


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Subject: RE: [Adslmib] six objects - redux
From: Bob Ray <rray@pesa.com>
Reply-To: rray@pesa.com
To: Sabit Say <ssay@nlc.com>
Cc: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>,
        adslmib mail list <adslmib@ietf.org>,
        Moti Morgenstern <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>,
        Rajesh Abbi <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>
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On Wed, 2003-04-30 at 15:13, Say, Sabit wrote:

> Correct this and you are done:
> vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE

Got it.  Thanks. Was also missing the word "of" in the
vdslChanCurrFastFecOverhead description.  That, or change
"a value of zero" to "the value zero" elsewhere.  But that
leads to a metaphysical trench, I think (is there one and
only one one?).   <- lame humor

> 1) Is it clear from the range and the variable type that the 0-1275 range is
> in increments of 5 [microseconds]? 

Nope.  In the object description its in increments of 1 microsecond.
If I change it to increments of 5 microseconds, the range is changed
to (0..255).  That is, UNITS gets changed to UNITS "5 microseconds".

> 2) 0 to 50 for % overhead makes sense.
> Or if you do not want any range checking, you can define it as 0 to 63.75 in
> 0.25 increments.

Similarly, would result in a range of (0..255) with UNITS of 0.25%. 

I suppose the (0..255) ranges are the more accurate translations of 
the underlying mechanisms.  Rajesh will argue about anything greater
than 50%.

> 4) The reported parameters do not have upstream/downstream attached to them,
> but I presume they can be reported for both. Is that correct?

The vdslChanCurrXXXX objects are for each ifIndex and vdslLineEntity
(Vtuc, Vtur).  As fast and interleave channels will each have an
ifEntry, and as each end of the line (Vtuc, Vtur) will have an
entry in the vdslChanTable, then, yes, it is reported for Upstream
(Vtur -> Vtuc) and Downstream (Vtuc -> Vtur).  Perhaps better object
names:

    vdslChanTxOverhead          (NOTE: "Tx")
    vdslChanTxBurstProtection   (NOTE: "Tx")

this would indicate which channel and in which direction the objects
refer (when taken in the context of their ifIndex and vdslLineEntity).

Bob Ray

p.s.  I need a beer.

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From: Rajesh Abbi <Rajesh.Abbi@alcatel.com>
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CC: Sabit Say <ssay@nlc.com>, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>,
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        Moti Morgenstern <Moti.Morgenstern@ecitele.com>
Subject: Re: [Adslmib] six objects - redux
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Since the parmeter vaues do not reflect exact configuration - only Minimum/Maximum
and Target values, it does not make sense to put unnecessary constraints on the steps.
The units should be simple (normally used).  So I agree with Randy that we should simply
use % and microseconds as the units in incements of 1 (1% or 1 microsecond).

Enough from me.  Bob, go get a beer !

;-)

Rajesh


Bob Ray wrote:

> On Wed, 2003-04-30 at 15:13, Say, Sabit wrote:
>
> > Correct this and you are done:
> > vdslLineConfUpstreamTargetSlowBurstProtection OBJECT-TYPE
>
> Got it.  Thanks. Was also missing the word "of" in the
> vdslChanCurrFastFecOverhead description.  That, or change
> "a value of zero" to "the value zero" elsewhere.  But that
> leads to a metaphysical trench, I think (is there one and
> only one one?).   <- lame humor
>
> > 1) Is it clear from the range and the variable type that the 0-1275 range is
> > in increments of 5 [microseconds]?
>
> Nope.  In the object description its in increments of 1 microsecond.
> If I change it to increments of 5 microseconds, the range is changed
> to (0..255).  That is, UNITS gets changed to UNITS "5 microseconds".
>
> > 2) 0 to 50 for % overhead makes sense.
> > Or if you do not want any range checking, you can define it as 0 to 63.75 in
> > 0.25 increments.
>
> Similarly, would result in a range of (0..255) with UNITS of 0.25%.
>
> I suppose the (0..255) ranges are the more accurate translations of
> the underlying mechanisms.  Rajesh will argue about anything greater
> than 50%.
>
> > 4) The reported parameters do not have upstream/downstream attached to them,
> > but I presume they can be reported for both. Is that correct?
>
> The vdslChanCurrXXXX objects are for each ifIndex and vdslLineEntity
> (Vtuc, Vtur).  As fast and interleave channels will each have an
> ifEntry, and as each end of the line (Vtuc, Vtur) will have an
> entry in the vdslChanTable, then, yes, it is reported for Upstream
> (Vtur -> Vtuc) and Downstream (Vtuc -> Vtur).  Perhaps better object
> names:
>
>     vdslChanTxOverhead          (NOTE: "Tx")
>     vdslChanTxBurstProtection   (NOTE: "Tx")
>
> this would indicate which channel and in which direction the objects
> refer (when taken in the context of their ifIndex and vdslLineEntity).
>
> Bob Ray
>
> p.s.  I need a beer.

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