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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA draft charter
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Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work on an =
autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I have now dr=
afted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs. Note that this is n=
ot yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only so far.

The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will continue to =
be discussed in the NMRG group.=20

If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on realistic d=
eliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, achievable set of delive=
rables, and, if successful and useful, expand after re-chartering.=20

Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.=20

Thanks,=20
Michael


Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG

Description of Working Group

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements. An aut=
onomic function works in a distributed way across various network elements,=
 allowing however central guidance and reporting. Autonomic functions alrea=
dy exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF. However, al=
l such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging and securit=
y mechanisms.=20

To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into concre=
te, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the Network Man=
agement Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define terminology and de=
sign goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis. The definitions and de=
sign goals, as well as a simple architecture model are defined in draft-irt=
f-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap analysis for AN is described =
in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use c=
ases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a baseline f=
or this working group.

This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components of an=
 autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple architecture and =
design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Futu=
re work may include a more detailed systems architecture to support the dev=
elopment of autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initiall=
y focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.

The solutions target to cover the following areas:=20
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o an example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:=20

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic =
functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure=20
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for specific =
use cases. The working group will initially consider one simple example as =
a test case for further work.=20

o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
  Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay focused =
and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy inten=
t, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic servic=
e agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions, but are not pl=
anned as working group deliverables for now. No additional work items will =
be accepted in the working group without re-chartering.=20

Milestones

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
           - Mar IETF -=20
Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
           - Jul IETF -=20
Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG (sta=
ndards track)
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap=20
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
           - Nov IETF -=20
Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG  (standards tra=
ck)
Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane=20
           - Mar IETF -=20
Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG  (standards =
track)
Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close

--


From nobody Tue Aug  5 04:48:33 2014
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From: "Roberta Maglione (robmgl)" <robmgl@cisco.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA draft charter
Thread-Index: Ac+whaNUJ9wvrf9wQzauyZpxuIFp7wAHV/YA
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:48:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Hi Michael,
I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good, great work.
I just have a comment on the following milestone:
-Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)

Use cases drafts are usually informational documents: any reasons to propos=
e this one as standard track?
Thanks
Regards
Roberta

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringer =
(mbehring)
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 10:19 AM
To: anima@ietf.org
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter

At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work on an =
autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I have now dr=
afted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs. Note that this is n=
ot yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only so far.

The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will continue to =
be discussed in the NMRG group.=20

If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on realistic d=
eliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, achievable set of delive=
rables, and, if successful and useful, expand after re-chartering.=20

Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.=20

Thanks,=20
Michael


Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG

Description of Working Group

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements. An aut=
onomic function works in a distributed way across various network elements,=
 allowing however central guidance and reporting. Autonomic functions alrea=
dy exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF. However, al=
l such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging and securit=
y mechanisms.=20

To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into concre=
te, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the Network Man=
agement Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define terminology and de=
sign goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis. The definitions and de=
sign goals, as well as a simple architecture model are defined in draft-irt=
f-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap analysis for AN is described =
in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use c=
ases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a baseline f=
or this working group.

This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components of an=
 autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple architecture and =
design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Futu=
re work may include a more detailed systems architecture to support the dev=
elopment of autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initiall=
y focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.

The solutions target to cover the following areas:=20
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o an example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:=20

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic =
functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure=20
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for specific =
use cases. The working group will initially consider one simple example as =
a test case for further work.=20

o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
  Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay focused =
and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy inten=
t, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic servic=
e agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions, but are not pl=
anned as working group deliverables for now. No additional work items will =
be accepted in the working group without re-chartering.=20

Milestones

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
           - Mar IETF -=20
Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
           - Jul IETF -=20
Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG (sta=
ndards track)
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap=20
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
           - Nov IETF -=20
Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG  (standards tra=
ck)
Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane=20
           - Mar IETF -=20
Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG  (standards =
track)
Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close

--

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "Roberta Maglione (robmgl)" <robmgl@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA draft charter
Thread-Index: Ac+whaNUJ9wvrf9wQzauyZpxuIFp7wAHV/YAAAPoUcA=
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 13:43:01 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl)
> Sent: 05 August 2014 13:48
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>=20
> Hi Michael,
> I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good, great work.
> I just have a comment on the following milestone:
> -Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>=20
> Use cases drafts are usually informational documents: any reasons to
> propose this one as standard track?

Thanks for your support Roberta. I wouldn't read too much into the details =
at this point ;-) There are a number of things to look. A use case could be=
 either an informative description how an autonomic service agent acts, usi=
ng standard protocols; in which case it would be informational; if it requi=
res some protocol extension or similar, there may be some standards track i=
nvolved as well. We'll see once we have the use case clear.=20

Michael

> Thanks
> Regards
> Roberta


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From: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
To: =?Windows-1252?Q?J=E9ferson_Campos_Nobre?= <jcnobre@inf.ufrgs.br>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] AN and I2RS
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Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
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Brian,

I was the one suggesting to look into synergies with i2rs, as I'm active in=
 the i2rs wg and have interest in UCAN BoF.

Please see inline comments

Dean

On Jul 30, 2014, at 12:50 AM, J=E9ferson Campos Nobre <jcnobre@inf.ufrgs.br=
> wrote:

> Hi,
> Inline comments.
> Cheers.
> J=E9ferson
>=20
> On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Brian E Carpenter
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> It was mentioned during the UCAN BOF that we should consider any
>> relationship to I2RS. While waiting to check out of the hotel
>> later this morning, I have quickly glanced at the I2RS architecture
>> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture-05).
>>=20
>> One aspect is how a future I2RS instance could interact with AN.
>> I2RS says:
>>=20
>>>   Routing Element:   A Routing Element implements some subset of the
>>>      routing system.  It does not need to have a forwarding plane
>>>      associated with it.  Examples of Routing Elements can include:
>>>=20
>>>      *  A router with a forwarding plane and RIB Manager that runs
>>>         ISIS, OSPF, BGP, PIM, etc.,
>>>=20
>>>      *  A BGP speaker acting as a Route Reflector,
>>>=20
>>>      *  An LSR that implements RSVP-TE, OSPF-TE, and PCEP and has a
>>>         forwarding plane and associated RIB Manager,
>>>=20
>>>      *  A server that runs ISIS, OSPF, BGP and uses ForCES to control a
>>>         remote forwarding plane,
>>>=20
>>>      A Routing Element may be locally managed, whether via CLI, SNMP,
>>>      or NETCONF.
>>=20
>> So, I suppose we could argue that an I2RS Routing Element could act
>> as an Autonomic Networking Service Agent, i.e. it could act as an
>> interface between the routing system and AN, instead of being
>> traditionally managed.
>=20
> Do you mean the I2RS agent? For me it seems the Autonomic Networking
> Service Agent is closer to the I2RS agent (not the routing element as
> a whole). However, considering this means that the AN agent would need
> to speak the I2RS protocol=85

Adding intelligence to I2RS agent is something very desirable, as the multi=
ple I2RS clients will talk to the same I2RS agent and the agent will have t=
o make decisions, without having always connection to the client. For I2RS =
we are considering NETCONF/RESTCONF as a protocol.
Another protocol that is interesting for AN is DLEP (draft-ietf-manet-dlep-=
05). It provides discovery and information collection mechanism about links=
.

>=20
>> We could also wonder whether I2RS isn't a nice AN use case, but it's
>> very complex - the I2RS WG itself is deep into multiple use case
>> analysis and information model development - to say it bluntly,
>> ANIMA doesn't need that much complexity right now ;-).
Well, AN needs to talk to routing system to collect information. So instead=
 of creating a parallel mechanism, why not to join forces with I2RS and fin=
d if other requirements are needed to satisfy AN use cases.
>=20
> BTW, I think the I2RS use case requirements I-D
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hares-i2rs-usecase-reqs-summary-00)
> can be an example for an integrated use case I-D for ANIMA. They also
> have several use cases and this I-D gives a consistent view of them
> regarding the WG (e.g., classes of use cases).
I agree with Jeferson on this and based on such a draft we can see if there=
 is any overlap with I2RS requirements.=20
>=20
>> I think it is far too soon to even hypothetically consider whether
>> I2RS and AN have overlapping protocol requirements. I2RS has a
>> line its charter:
>>=20
>>> - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding
>>>  languages against the requirements.
>>=20
>> but I don't see any sign of an active draft on that topic.
>=20
> Probably it would be also good to have this kind of analysis for
> ANIMA. For example, an alternative for CDNP was mentioned during the
> BoF, thus at least the IETF alternatives protocols/mechanisms (if they
> exist) should be cited in the ANIMA I-Ds.
>=20
>> Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to talk with any of the
>> I2RS protagonists during the IETF. If anybody here can comment
>> further, please do so.
>>=20
>> Regards
>>    Brian
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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On 06/08/2014 01:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl)
>> Sent: 05 August 2014 13:48
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>>
>> Hi Michael,
>> I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good, great work.
>> I just have a comment on the following milestone:
>> -Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>>
>> Use cases drafts are usually informational documents: any reasons to
>> propose this one as standard track?
> 
> Thanks for your support Roberta. I wouldn't read too much into the details at this point ;-) There are a number of things to look. A use case could be either an informative description how an autonomic service agent acts, using standard protocols; in which case it would be informational; if it requires some protocol extension or similar, there may be some standards track involved as well. We'll see once we have the use case clear. 

Indeed. The chances are that Roberta is correct. The other question of
course is which use case we should pick.

As a matter of fact, the proposed work item on an autonomic control
plane, definitely aimed at the standards track, is itself also a
use case (you could say that it's autonomic networking eating its
own dog food).

   Brian

> Michael
> 
>> Thanks
>> Regards
>> Roberta
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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From: "Roberta Maglione (robmgl)" <robmgl@cisco.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA draft charter
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From nobody Wed Aug  6 03:28:38 2014
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA draft charter
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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:28:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Hi Michael,

The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and feasible.

But I was a little confused about:
> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> o identity of nodes
> o common security model
> o discovery model
> o negotiation model
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
> o an example for an autonomic management model
>=20
> The goals of this working group are:
>=20
> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomi=
c
> functions
>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3 documents? But =
some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be common issues, so I'=
m not sure whether the 3 documents could cover all the targeted solutions?

Best regards,
Bing

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Behringer (mbehring)
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>=20
> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work on a=
n
> autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I have now
> drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs. Note that this =
is
> not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only so far.
>=20
> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will continue t=
o
> be discussed in the NMRG group.
>=20
> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on realistic
> deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, achievable set of
> deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after re-chartering.
>=20
> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Michael
>=20
>=20
> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>=20
> Description of Working Group
>=20
> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network
> elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting. Autonomic
> functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as
> OSPF. However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport,
> messaging and security mechanisms.
>=20
> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the Net=
work
> Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis. Th=
e
> definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture model are
> defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap analysi=
s
> for AN is described in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at I=
ETF
> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work
> serves as a baseline for this working group.
>=20
> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components of =
an
> autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple architecture and
> design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions.
> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to support t=
he
> development of autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will
> initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>=20
> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> o identity of nodes
> o common security model
> o discovery model
> o negotiation model
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
> o an example for an autonomic management model
>=20
> The goals of this working group are:
>=20
> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomi=
c
> functions
>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>=20
> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for specifi=
c use
> cases. The working group will initially consider one simple example as a =
test
> case for further work.
>=20
> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>=20
> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay focuse=
d and
> avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy intent,
> other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic service
> agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions, but are not
> planned as working group deliverables for now. No additional work items
> will be accepted in the working group without re-chartering.
>=20
> Milestones
>=20
> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>            - Mar IETF -
> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>            - Jul IETF -
> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
> (standards track)
> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>            - Nov IETF -
> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG  (standards
> track)
> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
> Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>            - Mar IETF -
> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
> (standards track)
> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>=20
> --
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA draft charter
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Bing,=20

The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. Identity, s=
ecurity, etc.=20
The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete deliverab=
les, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.=20

We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my worr=
y is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of the abov=
e points.=20

Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
> Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>=20
> Hi Michael,
>=20
> The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and feasible.
>=20
> But I was a little confused about:
> > The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> > o identity of nodes
> > o common security model
> > o discovery model
> > o negotiation model
> > o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
> > for an autonomic management model
> >
> > The goals of this working group are:
> >
> > o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
> > autonomic functions
> >    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> > o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> >    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> > o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> >    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>=20
> It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3 documents? Bu=
t
> some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be common issues, so
> I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover all the targeted
> solutions?
>=20
> Best regards,
> Bing
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> > Behringer (mbehring)
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
> > To: anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> >
> > At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
> > on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
> > have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
> > Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussio=
n only
> so far.
> >
> > The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
> > continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
> >
> > If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
> > realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
> > achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand a=
fter
> re-chartering.
> >
> > Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
> >
> > Description of Working Group
> >
> > Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
> elements.
> > An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
> > network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
> > Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
> > protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
> > discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
> >
> > To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
> > concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
> > Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
> > terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
> > The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
> > model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
> > the gap analysis for AN is described in
> > draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
> > 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work
> > serves as a baseline for this working group.
> >
> > This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
> > of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
> > architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
> network-definitions.
> > Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
> > support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
> working
> > group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
> >
> > The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> > o identity of nodes
> > o common security model
> > o discovery model
> > o negotiation model
> > o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
> > for an autonomic management model
> >
> > The goals of this working group are:
> >
> > o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
> > autonomic functions
> >    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> > o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> >    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> > o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> >    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
> >
> > In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
> > specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
> > simple example as a test case for further work.
> >
> > o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
> >   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
> >
> > The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
> > focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
> > policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
> > autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
> > submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
> > now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
> without re-chartering.
> >
> > Milestones
> >
> > Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
> >            - Mar IETF -
> > Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
> >            - Jul IETF -
> > Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
> > (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
> > Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
> >            - Nov IETF -
> > Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
> > (standards
> > track)
> > Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
> > 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
> >            - Mar IETF -
> > Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
> > (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
> >
> > --
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9ferson_Campos_Nobre?= <jcnobre@inf.ufrgs.br>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] AN and I2RS
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Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
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Dean,=20

To the relationship between ANIMA and I2RS:=20

To me, the difference is simple, and relates to the interface between what =
I2RS calls the agent and the client :=20
- I2RS (as well as general SDN approaches) focus on guidance for the specif=
ic element in question. Example: "node x: for prefix y, set next hop z".=20
- In Autonomics, you do NOT provide guidance for a specific element, but to=
 the entire network or a group of nodes. Example: "all BGP speakers: Prefer=
 SP 1 over SP2". or "this network runs OSPF".=20

The way I see it, autonomics will set a default for the network, i2rs (and =
other node specific methods, including CLI, SNMP, etc) set a more specific =
guidance on a per node level.=20

This requires conflict resolution.=20

There are already a large number of ways to influence the behaviour of a no=
de: Netconf, CLI, SNMP, i2rs, ...). With autonomics, there are two more:=20
- the autonomic default behaviour of a node=20
- the same, but influenced by intent, which is a network wide policy
Anything node specific (above list) overrides the network wide behaviour.=20

This way, autonomics can set a network wide default behaviour, possibly con=
trolled by intent, and i2rs and the other mechanisms define exceptions wher=
e needed.=20

This is similar to the behaviour of an IGP: The default IGP sets the genera=
l routing, a local static route for example provides a local override. (Not=
e well: ... and is a really good way to mess up an otherwise stable and det=
erministic network)

See also what I wrote in NMRG:=20
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nmrg/current/msg01580.html

[side question: To me it is clear that autonomics / intent are overridden b=
y all node specific mechanisms. But I don't have clear how those are priori=
tised between themselves? The i2rs architecture doc makes a vague statement=
 that " policy can determine whether Local Config overrides a particular I2=
RS client's request or vice versa." Personally I think there should be a pr=
e-defined priority list, but that's for another discussion.]=20

Now, autonomics as well as i2rs needs an agent for this messaging. So far, =
I see that as a separate agent, since the interactions may be different; bu=
t, need to think more about that. Compare figure 1 of draft-ietf-i2rs-archi=
tecture-05 with figure 1 of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-0=
1. The autonomic user agent is similar to the i2rs agent. It interprets int=
ent, and does the messaging for external feedback loops. How would you see =
that?=20

Does the above make sense? Should we maybe include a statement like this in=
 the ANIMA charter?=20

More inline...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dean
> Bogdanovic
> Sent: 05 August 2014 17:45
> To: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
>=20
[...]
> > Do you mean the I2RS agent? For me it seems the Autonomic Networking
> > Service Agent is closer to the I2RS agent (not the routing element as
> > a whole). However, considering this means that the AN agent would need
> > to speak the I2RS protocol.
>=20
> Adding intelligence to I2RS agent is something very desirable, as the
> multiple I2RS clients will talk to the same I2RS agent and the agent will=
 have
> to make decisions, without having always connection to the client. For I2=
RS
> we are considering NETCONF/RESTCONF as a protocol.
> Another protocol that is interesting for AN is DLEP (draft-ietf-manet-dle=
p-
> 05). It provides discovery and information collection mechanism about lin=
ks.

I'm not sure whether the agent should do conflict resolution. Conflicts hav=
e to be resolved between a wide range of "configuration" models, should thu=
s sit logically below all those agents. In my head, there is an agent per a=
pproach, one for i2rs, one for AN, one for CLI, ... and below that is confl=
ict resolution.=20
=20
> >> We could also wonder whether I2RS isn't a nice AN use case, but it's
> >> very complex - the I2RS WG itself is deep into multiple use case
> >> analysis and information model development - to say it bluntly, ANIMA
> >> doesn't need that much complexity right now ;-).
> Well, AN needs to talk to routing system to collect information. So inste=
ad
> of creating a parallel mechanism, why not to join forces with I2RS and fi=
nd if
> other requirements are needed to satisfy AN use cases.

I can see an autonomic service agent having to get routing info from the bo=
x, but that is an internal mechanism. I do not right now see a case where a=
n autonomic service agent would talk to an i2rs agent on another box. I wou=
ld rather see the AN agents on both boxes talk to each other, and the inter=
face to the routing system being internal to that box. Thoughts?=20

> > BTW, I think the I2RS use case requirements I-D
> > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hares-i2rs-usecase-reqs-summary-00)
> > can be an example for an integrated use case I-D for ANIMA. They also
> > have several use cases and this I-D gives a consistent view of them
> > regarding the WG (e.g., classes of use cases).
> I agree with Jeferson on this and based on such a draft we can see if the=
re is
> any overlap with I2RS requirements.

Need to read that draft. But I would return to my previous statement: AN is=
 not about direct node programming, but to a large extent about horizontal =
interfaces, with a minimal northbound interface. Many use cases can be solv=
ed in either way. AN is specifically looking at use cases where horizontal =
communication is a MUST or a big advantage.=20

Expressed differently: If i2rs has a use case and a good, generally accepte=
d solution for that use case, then maybe it's not a good use case for AN to=
 start with. AN should focus on use cases where distribution (ie horizontal=
 communication) is a big advantage or even a MUST.=20

The AN bootstrap use case is a good example: you can't solve that through a=
 northbound method like i2rs, because it's exactly about deriving the key m=
aterial to establish this northbound communication in the first place. ANIM=
A should focus on that type of use case initially, I think.=20

Michael

> >> I think it is far too soon to even hypothetically consider whether
> >> I2RS and AN have overlapping protocol requirements. I2RS has a line
> >> its charter:
> >>
> >>> - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding
> >>> languages against the requirements.
> >>
> >> but I don't see any sign of an active draft on that topic.
> >
> > Probably it would be also good to have this kind of analysis for
> > ANIMA. For example, an alternative for CDNP was mentioned during the
> > BoF, thus at least the IETF alternatives protocols/mechanisms (if they
> > exist) should be cited in the ANIMA I-Ds.
> >
> >> Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to talk with any of the I2RS
> >> protagonists during the IETF. If anybody here can comment further,
> >> please do so.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>    Brian
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Anima mailing list
> >> Anima@ietf.org
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From nobody Wed Aug  6 13:33:08 2014
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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 08:33:00 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Liubing \(Leo\)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct
that some features have global importance. I would expect that
the documents will all have normative dependencies on the others,
and it is part of the work to ensure that they are consistent.

    Brian

On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> Bing, 
> 
> The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. Identity, security, etc. 
> The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two. 
> 
> We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of the above points. 
> 
> Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
> Michael
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
>> Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>>
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and feasible.
>>
>> But I was a little confused about:
>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>> o identity of nodes
>>> o common security model
>>> o discovery model
>>> o negotiation model
>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
>>> for an autonomic management model
>>>
>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>
>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>> autonomic functions
>>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>> It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3 documents? But
>> some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be common issues, so
>> I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover all the targeted
>> solutions?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Bing
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
>>> To: anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>>
>>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
>>> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only
>> so far.
>>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>>
>>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after
>> re-chartering.
>>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>>
>>> Description of Working Group
>>>
>>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
>> elements.
>>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>>
>>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
>>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
>>> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
>>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
>>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
>>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work
>>> serves as a baseline for this working group.
>>>
>>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
>>> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
>>> architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
>> network-definitions.
>>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
>>> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
>> working
>>> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>>
>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>> o identity of nodes
>>> o common security model
>>> o discovery model
>>> o negotiation model
>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
>>> for an autonomic management model
>>>
>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>
>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>> autonomic functions
>>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>
>>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>>
>>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>>
>>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
>>> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
>>> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
>>> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
>>> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
>> without re-chartering.
>>> Milestones
>>>
>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>>            - Mar IETF -
>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>>            - Jul IETF -
>>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
>>> (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>>            - Nov IETF -
>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
>>> (standards
>>> track)
>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
>>> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>>            - Mar IETF -
>>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>>> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 08:47:50 +1200
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Please send your corrections:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/minutes/minutes-90-ucan

Regards
   Brian Carpenter




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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: About use case-//RE: ANIMA draft charter
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 03:00:14 +0000
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Subject: [Anima] About use case-//RE: ANIMA draft charter
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Hi Michael & All,

I have another question:
> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

Will the use case(s) be selected before or after the WG formation?

Best regards,
Bing

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Behringer (mbehring)
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>=20
> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work on a=
n
> autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I have now
> drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs. Note that this =
is
> not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only so far.
>=20
> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will continue t=
o
> be discussed in the NMRG group.
>=20
> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on realistic
> deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, achievable set of
> deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after re-chartering.
>=20
> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Michael
>=20
>=20
> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>=20
> Description of Working Group
>=20
> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network
> elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting. Autonomic
> functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as
> OSPF. However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport,
> messaging and security mechanisms.
>=20
> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the Net=
work
> Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis. Th=
e
> definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture model are
> defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap analysi=
s
> for AN is described in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at I=
ETF
> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work
> serves as a baseline for this working group.
>=20
> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components of =
an
> autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple architecture and
> design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions.
> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to support t=
he
> development of autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will
> initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>=20
> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> o identity of nodes
> o common security model
> o discovery model
> o negotiation model
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
> o an example for an autonomic management model
>=20
> The goals of this working group are:
>=20
> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomi=
c
> functions
>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>=20
> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for specifi=
c use
> cases. The working group will initially consider one simple example as a =
test
> case for further work.
>=20
> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>=20
> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay focuse=
d and
> avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy intent,
> other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic service
> agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions, but are not
> planned as working group deliverables for now. No additional work items
> will be accepted in the working group without re-chartering.
>=20
> Milestones
>=20
> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>            - Mar IETF -
> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>            - Jul IETF -
> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
> (standards track)
> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>            - Nov IETF -
> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG  (standards
> track)
> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
> Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>            - Mar IETF -
> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
> (standards track)
> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>=20
> --
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Wed Aug  6 20:21:18 2014
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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 15:21:10 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] About use case-//RE: ANIMA draft charter
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Hi Bing,

We did have a list of criteria for use cases, included in Michael's
slides at the BOF. We can look at the known use cases to find one that
fits the criteria. My personal preference is to choose one before
the WG is chartered - but if there isn't an obvious consensus, it might
have to wait so that the WG chairs could judge the rough consensus.

Just as a reminder, Michael's list:
A function is a good candidate for autonomic work at the IETF if:
=E2=80=93 There is operator interest
=E2=80=93 Distribution
  (The function cannot be completely centralised, or
  there are advantages with distribution)
=E2=80=93 Sharing infrastructure
=E2=80=93 There are other functions that require similar functionality or=
 benefit
from the proposed function
=E2=80=93 Abstraction
  (There is an easy way to describe the function, high-level, network wid=
e)
=E2=80=93 Simplicity to implement
=E2=80=93 Makes it easier to get started

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 07/08/2014 15:00, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
> Hi Michael & All,
>=20
> I have another question:
>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>=20
> Will the use case(s) be selected before or after the WG formation?
>=20
> Best regards,
> Bing
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Behringer (mbehring)
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
>> To: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>
>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work o=
n an
>> autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I have n=
ow
>> drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs. Note that th=
is is
>> not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only so far.
>>
>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will continu=
e to
>> be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>
>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on realis=
tic
>> deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, achievable set of
>> deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after re-charterin=
g.
>>
>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>
>> Description of Working Group
>>
>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various networ=
k
>> elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting. Autonomic
>> functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such =
as
>> OSPF. However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport,=

>> messaging and security mechanisms.
>>
>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the =
Network
>> Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.=
 The
>> definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture model a=
re
>> defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap anal=
ysis
>> for AN is described in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF a=
t IETF
>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work=

>> serves as a baseline for this working group.
>>
>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components =
of an
>> autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple architecture =
and
>> design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions.=

>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to suppor=
t the
>> development of autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will
>> initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>
>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>> o identity of nodes
>> o common security model
>> o discovery model
>> o negotiation model
>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
>> o an example for an autonomic management model
>>
>> The goals of this working group are:
>>
>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for auton=
omic
>> functions
>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>
>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for spec=
ific use
>> cases. The working group will initially consider one simple example as=
 a test
>> case for further work.
>>
>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>
>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay foc=
used and
>> avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy inte=
nt,
>> other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic serv=
ice
>> agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions, but are not=

>> planned as working group deliverables for now. No additional work item=
s
>> will be accepted in the working group without re-chartering.
>>
>> Milestones
>>
>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>            - Mar IETF -
>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>            - Jul IETF -
>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG=

>> (standards track)
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>            - Nov IETF -
>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG  (standard=
s
>> track)
>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>> Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>            - Mar IETF -
>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>> (standards track)
>> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20


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From: "Fuyu (Eleven)" <eleven.fuyu@huawei.com>
To: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: About use case-//RE: ANIMA draft charter
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Subject: Re: [Anima] About use case-//RE: ANIMA draft charter
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Hi All,

Another question about use case:

> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for=20
> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one=20
> simple example as a test case for further work.
>=20
> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

Does only one use case could cover all key areas as defined below:=20

> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> o identity of nodes
> o common security model
> o discovery model
> o negotiation model
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example=20
> for an autonomic management model

I think 2-3 typical use cases may be better.

BR
Yu

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Liubing (Leo)
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:00 AM
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
Subject: [Anima] About use case-//RE: ANIMA draft charter

Hi Michael & All,

I have another question:
> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

Will the use case(s) be selected before or after the WG formation?

Best regards,
Bing

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael=20
> Behringer (mbehring)
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>=20
> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work=20
> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I=20
> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.=20
> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion =
only so far.
>=20
> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will=20
> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>=20
> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on=20
> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,=20
> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand aft=
er re-chartering.
>=20
> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Michael
>=20
>=20
> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>=20
> Description of Working Group
>=20
> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various=20
> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.=20
> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing=20
> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own=20
> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>=20
> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into=20
> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the=20
> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define=20
> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.=20
> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture=20
> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;=20
> the gap analysis for AN is described in=20
> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work=20
> serves as a baseline for this working group.
>=20
> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components=20
> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple=20
> architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-networ=
k-definitions.
> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to=20
> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima working=20
> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>=20
> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> o identity of nodes
> o common security model
> o discovery model
> o negotiation model
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example=20
> for an autonomic management model
>=20
> The goals of this working group are:
>=20
> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for=20
> autonomic functions
>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>=20
> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for=20
> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one=20
> simple example as a test case for further work.
>=20
> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>=20
> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay=20
> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning=20
> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or=20
> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual=20
> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for=20
> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group witho=
ut re-chartering.
>=20
> Milestones
>=20
> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>            - Mar IETF -
> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>            - Jul IETF -
> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG=20
> (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap=20
> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>            - Nov IETF -
> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG =20
> (standards
> track)
> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan=20
> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>            - Mar IETF -
> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG=20
> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>=20
> --
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com)" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "Laurent Ciavaglia" <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA - Next Steps
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ANIMA participants,

This meeting is to discuss the draft agenda that was circulated on the list=
, and to define a clear direction. An agenda will be communicated separatel=
y each week.

The meeting will be recorded, and as all other IETF side meetings is subjec=
t to the "note well" statement.

Michael
******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******

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Meeting Password ----- anima
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a.

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<div>ANIMA participants, </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>This meeting is to discuss the draft agenda that was circulated on the=
 list, and to define a clear direction. An agenda will be communicated sepa=
rately each week. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The meeting will be recorded, and as all other IETF side meetings is s=
ubject to the &#8220;note well&#8221; statement. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Michael</div>
<div>*<a name=3D"WBX5B66F"></a>****** DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TE=
XT BELOW THIS LINE *******</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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<div>Go To:</div>
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php?MTID=3Dmc1a4d377cf0d5f134189c71e1a0f2114</u></font></a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Meeting Password ----- anima</div>
<div>Meeting Number ----- 201 974 466</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
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IN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:=
</div>
<div>-&nbsp; San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:&nbsp; 525-6800</div>
<div>-&nbsp; RTP (919) area:&nbsp; 392-3330</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes =
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y.&nbsp; The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jos=
e/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>To join the teleconference only </div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at </div>
<div><a href=3D"http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/in=
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>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>US/Canada: &#43;1.866.432.9903&nbsp; United Kingdom: &#43;44.20.8824.0=
117 </div>
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>
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From nobody Thu Aug  7 03:53:37 2014
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Weekly call scheduling. 
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Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to be a hug=
e challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST be acceptable. =
But US east coast is a problem.=20

Please respond if:=20
- you would like to actively participate in these calls
- and the timing is really not feasible where you are.=20

We'll need to find a workable solution for all.=20
Michael


From nobody Thu Aug  7 04:45:45 2014
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 04:44:14 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Leo,

I am not sure what you imply with "exactly the same" in 1. Maybe you can give
the most simple example where we are not doing it "exactly he same" and
that you think might be useful ?

To me, i can see a lot of functions that "naturally" might use different identities.
Eg: LAN protocol where the MAC address is the "natural" identity of a node.
L3 protocols where the IP address is a natural identity of the node. But then
you want to make sure there is security and protection against errors/duplicate
address/identity, and you end up creating a mapping to a more trustworthy identity.

Example ACP: I can run protocols via IPv6 inside the ACP between nodes. So
the IPv6 address becomes the natural node identity. So, how do i secure this ?
Well, i do not need to add a separate layer of security to each such protocol,
because all those packets within the ACP have been received via secured ACP channels,
and that underlying channel is secured - with the secure node identity, eg: S-UDI.
So i have an implicit mapping between S-UDI as the primary, secure node identity,
and some protocol specific identity such as the IPv6 address it has inside the ACP.

Does this match your "exatly the same" - or not ?

Cheers
    Toerless

On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 02:56:23AM +0000, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
> Hi Brian & Michael,
> 
> Thanks for your explanations. I have some rough thoughts as following, which maybe already addressed by former discussion that I haven't followed.
> 
> There might be two ways for the global features in "Solutions" section:
> 1. The global features are unified, e.g., the node identities in config-negotiation-protocol, bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and autonomic-control-plane are exactly the same.
> 2. The global features are covered in each specific mechanism, but they might have different designs to respectively fit their goals more sufficiently.
> I think maybe we need to make it more clearer.
> 
> Personally, I'm a little concerned that whether choice 1 could be achieved in real design. May I ask your thoughts?
> 
> Best regards,
> Bing
>  
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 4:33 AM
> > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > Cc: Liubing (Leo); anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> > 
> > I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct that
> > some features have global importance. I would expect that the documents
> > will all have normative dependencies on the others, and it is part of the work
> > to ensure that they are consistent.
> > 
> >     Brian
> > 
> > On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > > Bing,
> > >
> > > The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. Identity,
> > security, etc.
> > > The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete
> > deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
> > >
> > > We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my
> > worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of the
> > above points.
> > >
> > > Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
> > >> Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
> > >> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> > >> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
> > >>
> > >> Hi Michael,
> > >>
> > >> The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and feasible.
> > >>
> > >> But I was a little confused about:
> > >>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> > >>> o identity of nodes
> > >>> o common security model
> > >>> o discovery model
> > >>> o negotiation model
> > >>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
> > >>> example for an autonomic management model
> > >>>
> > >>> The goals of this working group are:
> > >>>
> > >>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
> > >>> autonomic functions
> > >>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> > >>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> > >>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> > >>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> > >>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
> > >> It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3
> > >> documents? But some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be
> > >> common issues, so I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover
> > >> all the targeted solutions?
> > >>
> > >> Best regards,
> > >> Bing
> > >>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> > >>> Behringer (mbehring)
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
> > >>> To: anima@ietf.org
> > >>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> > >>>
> > >>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
> > >>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and
> > >>> I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
> > >>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
> > >>> discussion only
> > >> so far.
> > >>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
> > >>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
> > >>>
> > >>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
> > >>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
> > >>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,
> > >>> expand after
> > >> re-chartering.
> > >>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>> Michael
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
> > >>>
> > >>> Description of Working Group
> > >>>
> > >>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
> > >> elements.
> > >>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
> > >>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
> > >>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
> > >>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
> > >>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
> > >>>
> > >>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept
> > into
> > >>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in
> > >>> the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to
> > >>> define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap
> > analysis.
> > >>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
> > >>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
> > >>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
> > >>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
> > >>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above
> > >>> work serves as a baseline for this working group.
> > >>>
> > >>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of
> > >>> components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the
> > >>> simple architecture and design goals defined in
> > >>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
> > >> network-definitions.
> > >>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
> > >>> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
> > >> working
> > >>> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
> > >>>
> > >>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> > >>> o identity of nodes
> > >>> o common security model
> > >>> o discovery model
> > >>> o negotiation model
> > >>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
> > >>> example for an autonomic management model
> > >>>
> > >>> The goals of this working group are:
> > >>>
> > >>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
> > >>> autonomic functions
> > >>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> > >>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> > >>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> > >>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> > >>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
> > >>>
> > >>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
> > >>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
> > >>> simple example as a test case for further work.
> > >>>
> > >>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
> > >>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
> > >>>
> > >>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
> > >>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents
> > >>> concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components,
> > >>> use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as
> > >>> individual submissions, but are not planned as working group
> > >>> deliverables for now. No additional work items will be accepted in
> > >>> the working group
> > >> without re-chartering.
> > >>> Milestones
> > >>>
> > >>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
> > >>>            - Mar IETF -
> > >>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
> > >>>            - Jul IETF -
> > >>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to
> > >>> IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC
> > >>> draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
> > >>>            - Nov IETF -
> > >>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
> > >>> (standards
> > >>> track)
> > >>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
> > >>> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
> > >>>            - Mar IETF -
> > >>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
> > >>> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Anima mailing list
> > >>> Anima@ietf.org
> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Anima mailing list
> > > Anima@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > >
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Thu Aug  7 05:04:59 2014
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 05:04:53 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20140807120453.GB26022@cisco.com>
References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C000A8@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <57C3345230A4F94C9B2F5CFA05D7F2BD1EC862DB@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C0069C@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <53E1656F.1070708@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 11:14:55AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 06/08/2014 01:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl)
> >> Sent: 05 August 2014 13:48
> >> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> >> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> >> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
> >>
> >> Hi Michael,
> >> I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good, great work.
> >> I just have a comment on the following milestone:
> >> -Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
> >>
> >> Use cases drafts are usually informational documents: any reasons to
> >> propose this one as standard track?
> > 
> > Thanks for your support Roberta. I wouldn't read too much into the details at this point ;-) There are a number of things to look. A use case could be either an informative description how an autonomic service agent acts, using standard protocols; in which case it would be informational; if it requires some protocol extension or similar, there may be some standards track involved as well. We'll see once we have the use case clear. 
> 
> Indeed. The chances are that Roberta is correct. The other question of
> course is which use case we should pick.
> 
> As a matter of fact, the proposed work item on an autonomic control
> plane, definitely aimed at the standards track, is itself also a
> use case (you could say that it's autonomic networking eating its
> own dog food).

Thanks, Brian

To put this into perspective: 

Brian asked originally before the BOF for a clear separation of use-case and
solution drafts. an we didn't get that done in time for Toronto due to ENOTIME,
so we had both aspects in one draft.  We could of course still do this now before 
Honolulu if thats still desirable.

The ACP definition in the charter would be the standards track target
solution/technology.

The use-cases for ACP would be what we showed during the BOF and potentially
even more:

What we showed:

  1. "Virtual DCE" or "free Autonomic inband OAM network"
  
  2. avoidance of incremental pre-stating configuring during boostrap 
     of larger topologies. 

     This is "eat your own dog-food", because it allows to improve the bootstrap.

The "even more" refers to further autonomic functions like autonomic agents,
or expanding the negotiation protocol to become more like eg: a bus between
the autonomic agents across a larger topology. For both of those
purposed, the ACP would also be reuseable/beneficial.

So, if folks feel we should separate out a use-case draft for the ACP,
maybe with exactly those two points listed above (as we presented at the BOF),
that would be fine. I think after having gone through the exercise of the BOF
and slides there i have a clearer idea how we can cut end appropriately expand
the text to have two documents.

Cheers
    Toerless


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Weekly call scheduling.
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On 7 Aug 2014, at 06:53, Michael Behringer (mbehring) =
<mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:

> Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to be =
a huge challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST be =
acceptable. But US east coast is a problem.=20
>=20
> Please respond if:=20
> - you would like to actively participate in these calls
> - and the timing is really not feasible where you are.=20

I'd like to actively participate, and 2am isn't really feasible ;)

What's the rationale behind the current time?

Arran Cudbard-Bell <a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>
FreeRADIUS development team

FD31 3077 42EC 7FCD 32FE 5EE2 56CF 27F9 30A8 CAA2


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From nobody Thu Aug  7 05:33:16 2014
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Dear Arran, all,

The proposed timing has been proposed to match the European (Michael, 
myself), China (Sheng), New Zealand (Brian) and North America Pacific 
coast (Toerless) time zones...

Not sure how we can fix this... one option would be to schedule 2 calls 
on the same day...

Best regards, Laurent.

On 07/08/2014 14:11, Arran Cudbard-Bell wrote:
> On 7 Aug 2014, at 06:53, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to be a huge challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST be acceptable. But US east coast is a problem.
>>
>> Please respond if:
>> - you would like to actively participate in these calls
>> - and the timing is really not feasible where you are.
> I'd like to actively participate, and 2am isn't really feasible ;)
>
> What's the rationale behind the current time?
>
> Arran Cudbard-Bell <a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>
> FreeRADIUS development team
>
> FD31 3077 42EC 7FCD 32FE 5EE2 56CF 27F9 30A8 CAA2
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Dear Arran, all,<br>
      <br>
      The proposed timing has been proposed to match the European
      (Michael, myself), China (Sheng), New Zealand (Brian) and North
      America Pacific coast (Toerless) time zones...<br>
      <br>
      Not sure how we can fix this... one option would be to schedule 2
      calls on the same day...<br>
      <br>
      Best regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/08/2014 14:11, Arran Cudbard-Bell
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:ADB1307A-F4CB-4E3E-A990-717C00A0B3BD@freeradius.org"
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On 7 Aug 2014, at 06:53, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to be a huge challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST be acceptable. But US east coast is a problem. 

Please respond if: 
- you would like to actively participate in these calls
- and the timing is really not feasible where you are. 
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I'd like to actively participate, and 2am isn't really feasible ;)

What's the rationale behind the current time?

Arran Cudbard-Bell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a.cudbardb@freeradius.org">&lt;a.cudbardb@freeradius.org&gt;</a>
FreeRADIUS development team

FD31 3077 42EC 7FCD 32FE 5EE2 56CF 27F9 30A8 CAA2

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      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 15:11:51 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Hello,

I agree with Toerless. Nice example.

What we need is:
     -a unique definition of the concept "node identity" in the scope of 
the autonomic network infrastructures. I not even sure that we should 
talk about "_node_ identify" but rather "_function_ identity" - or a 
hierarchy of identities e.g. atomic function identity + group of 
functions identity. also, are we clear that we talk about identity or 
identifier?

     -consistency across the actors/layers/protocols/whatever is 
involved about the identities being used.

     -translation mechanisms to ensure the above consistency.

But maybe before debating this "details": to what the "node identity" 
initially defined in the charter do refers to...?

Regards, Laurent.


On 07/08/2014 13:44, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> Leo,
>
> I am not sure what you imply with "exactly the same" in 1. Maybe you can give
> the most simple example where we are not doing it "exactly he same" and
> that you think might be useful ?
>
> To me, i can see a lot of functions that "naturally" might use different identities.
> Eg: LAN protocol where the MAC address is the "natural" identity of a node.
> L3 protocols where the IP address is a natural identity of the node. But then
> you want to make sure there is security and protection against errors/duplicate
> address/identity, and you end up creating a mapping to a more trustworthy identity.
>
> Example ACP: I can run protocols via IPv6 inside the ACP between nodes. So
> the IPv6 address becomes the natural node identity. So, how do i secure this ?
> Well, i do not need to add a separate layer of security to each such protocol,
> because all those packets within the ACP have been received via secured ACP channels,
> and that underlying channel is secured - with the secure node identity, eg: S-UDI.
> So i have an implicit mapping between S-UDI as the primary, secure node identity,
> and some protocol specific identity such as the IPv6 address it has inside the ACP.
>
> Does this match your "exatly the same" - or not ?
>
> Cheers
>      Toerless
>
> On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 02:56:23AM +0000, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
>> Hi Brian & Michael,
>>
>> Thanks for your explanations. I have some rough thoughts as following, which maybe already addressed by former discussion that I haven't followed.
>>
>> There might be two ways for the global features in "Solutions" section:
>> 1. The global features are unified, e.g., the node identities in config-negotiation-protocol, bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and autonomic-control-plane are exactly the same.
>> 2. The global features are covered in each specific mechanism, but they might have different designs to respectively fit their goals more sufficiently.
>> I think maybe we need to make it more clearer.
>>
>> Personally, I'm a little concerned that whether choice 1 could be achieved in real design. May I ask your thoughts?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Bing
>>   
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 4:33 AM
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> Cc: Liubing (Leo); anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct that
>>> some features have global importance. I would expect that the documents
>>> will all have normative dependencies on the others, and it is part of the work
>>> to ensure that they are consistent.
>>>
>>>      Brian
>>>
>>> On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>> Bing,
>>>>
>>>> The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. Identity,
>>> security, etc.
>>>> The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete
>>> deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
>>>> We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my
>>> worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of the
>>> above points.
>>>> Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
>>>>> Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
>>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and feasible.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I was a little confused about:
>>>>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>>>>> o identity of nodes
>>>>>> o common security model
>>>>>> o discovery model
>>>>>> o negotiation model
>>>>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
>>>>>> example for an autonomic management model
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>>>> autonomic functions
>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>>>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>>>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>>> It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3
>>>>> documents? But some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be
>>>>> common issues, so I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover
>>>>> all the targeted solutions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Bing
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
>>>>>> To: anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>>>>>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and
>>>>>> I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>>>>>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
>>>>>> discussion only
>>>>> so far.
>>>>>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>>>>>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>>>>>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>>>>>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,
>>>>>> expand after
>>>>> re-chartering.
>>>>>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Description of Working Group
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
>>>>> elements.
>>>>>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>>>>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>>>>>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>>>>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>>>>>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept
>>> into
>>>>>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in
>>>>>> the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to
>>>>>> define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap
>>> analysis.
>>>>>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>>>>>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>>>>>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>>>>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
>>>>>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above
>>>>>> work serves as a baseline for this working group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of
>>>>>> components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the
>>>>>> simple architecture and design goals defined in
>>>>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
>>>>> network-definitions.
>>>>>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
>>>>>> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
>>>>> working
>>>>>> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>>>>> o identity of nodes
>>>>>> o common security model
>>>>>> o discovery model
>>>>>> o negotiation model
>>>>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
>>>>>> example for an autonomic management model
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>>>> autonomic functions
>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>>>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>>>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>>>>>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>>>>>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>>>>>    Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>>>>>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents
>>>>>> concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components,
>>>>>> use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as
>>>>>> individual submissions, but are not planned as working group
>>>>>> deliverables for now. No additional work items will be accepted in
>>>>>> the working group
>>>>> without re-chartering.
>>>>>> Milestones
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>>>>>             - Mar IETF -
>>>>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>>>>>             - Jul IETF -
>>>>>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to
>>>>>> IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC
>>>>>> draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>>>>>             - Nov IETF -
>>>>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
>>>>>> (standards
>>>>>> track)
>>>>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
>>>>>> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>>>>>             - Mar IETF -
>>>>>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>>>>>> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
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>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Hello,<br>
      <br>
      I agree with Toerless. Nice example.<br>
      <br>
      What we need is:<br>
    </font>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -a unique definition of the concept "node identity" in
    the scope of the autonomic network infrastructures. I not even sure
    that we should talk about "<u>node</u> identify" but rather "<u>function</u>
    identity" - or a hierarchy of identities e.g. atomic function
    identity + group of functions identity. also, are we clear that we
    talk about identity or identifier?<br>
    <br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -consistency across the actors/layers/protocols/whatever is
    involved about the identities being used.<br>
    <br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -translation mechanisms to ensure the above consistency.<br>
    <br>
    But maybe before debating this "details": to what the "node
    identity" initially defined in the charter do refers to...?<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Laurent.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/08/2014 13:44, Toerless Eckert
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:20140807114414.GA26022@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Leo,

I am not sure what you imply with "exactly the same" in 1. Maybe you can give
the most simple example where we are not doing it "exactly he same" and
that you think might be useful ?

To me, i can see a lot of functions that "naturally" might use different identities.
Eg: LAN protocol where the MAC address is the "natural" identity of a node.
L3 protocols where the IP address is a natural identity of the node. But then
you want to make sure there is security and protection against errors/duplicate
address/identity, and you end up creating a mapping to a more trustworthy identity.

Example ACP: I can run protocols via IPv6 inside the ACP between nodes. So
the IPv6 address becomes the natural node identity. So, how do i secure this ?
Well, i do not need to add a separate layer of security to each such protocol,
because all those packets within the ACP have been received via secured ACP channels,
and that underlying channel is secured - with the secure node identity, eg: S-UDI.
So i have an implicit mapping between S-UDI as the primary, secure node identity,
and some protocol specific identity such as the IPv6 address it has inside the ACP.

Does this match your "exatly the same" - or not ?

Cheers
    Toerless

On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 02:56:23AM +0000, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi Brian &amp; Michael,

Thanks for your explanations. I have some rough thoughts as following, which maybe already addressed by former discussion that I haven't followed.

There might be two ways for the global features in "Solutions" section:
1. The global features are unified, e.g., the node identities in config-negotiation-protocol, bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and autonomic-control-plane are exactly the same.
2. The global features are covered in each specific mechanism, but they might have different designs to respectively fit their goals more sufficiently.
I think maybe we need to make it more clearer.

Personally, I'm a little concerned that whether choice 1 could be achieved in real design. May I ask your thoughts?

Best regards,
Bing
 
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 4:33 AM
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
Cc: Liubing (Leo); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter

I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct that
some features have global importance. I would expect that the documents
will all have normative dependencies on the others, and it is part of the work
to ensure that they are consistent.

    Brian

On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">Bing,

The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. Identity,
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">security, etc.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">
We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of the
above points.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">
Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
Michael

</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Liubing (Leo) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com">mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>]
Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter

Hi Michael,

The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and feasible.

But I was a little confused about:
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">The solutions target to cover the following areas:
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3
documents? But some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be
common issues, so I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover
all the targeted solutions?

Best regards,
Bing

</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Michael
Behringer (mbehring)
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter

At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and
I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
discussion only
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">so far.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.

If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,
expand after
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">re-chartering.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.

Thanks,
Michael


Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG

Description of Working Group

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">elements.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.

To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept
</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">into
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in
the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to
define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap
</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">analysis.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
the gap analysis for AN is described in
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above
work serves as a baseline for this working group.

This working group defines solutions for an initial set of
components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the
simple architecture and design goals defined in
draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">network-definitions.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">working
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.

The solutions target to cover the following areas:
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
simple example as a test case for further work.

o Definition of &lt;a selected use case by the group&gt;
  Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents
concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components,
use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as
individual submissions, but are not planned as working group
deliverables for now. No additional work items will be accepted in
the working group
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">without re-chartering.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">Milestones

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
           - Mar IETF -
Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
           - Jul IETF -
Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to
IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC
draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
           - Nov IETF -
Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
(standards
track)
Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
           - Mar IETF -
Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
(standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close

--

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
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Toerless,

I think it will be more clear for the future discussions to have two 
separate documents.

Just my two cents. Laurent.

On 07/08/2014 14:04, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 11:14:55AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 06/08/2014 01:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl)
>>>> Sent: 05 August 2014 13:48
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>>>>
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>> I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good, great work.
>>>> I just have a comment on the following milestone:
>>>> -Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>>>>
>>>> Use cases drafts are usually informational documents: any reasons to
>>>> propose this one as standard track?
>>> Thanks for your support Roberta. I wouldn't read too much into the details at this point ;-) There are a number of things to look. A use case could be either an informative description how an autonomic service agent acts, using standard protocols; in which case it would be informational; if it requires some protocol extension or similar, there may be some standards track involved as well. We'll see once we have the use case clear.
>> Indeed. The chances are that Roberta is correct. The other question of
>> course is which use case we should pick.
>>
>> As a matter of fact, the proposed work item on an autonomic control
>> plane, definitely aimed at the standards track, is itself also a
>> use case (you could say that it's autonomic networking eating its
>> own dog food).
> Thanks, Brian
>
> To put this into perspective:
>
> Brian asked originally before the BOF for a clear separation of use-case and
> solution drafts. an we didn't get that done in time for Toronto due to ENOTIME,
> so we had both aspects in one draft.  We could of course still do this now before
> Honolulu if thats still desirable.
>
> The ACP definition in the charter would be the standards track target
> solution/technology.
>
> The use-cases for ACP would be what we showed during the BOF and potentially
> even more:
>
> What we showed:
>
>    1. "Virtual DCE" or "free Autonomic inband OAM network"
>    
>    2. avoidance of incremental pre-stating configuring during boostrap
>       of larger topologies.
>
>       This is "eat your own dog-food", because it allows to improve the bootstrap.
>
> The "even more" refers to further autonomic functions like autonomic agents,
> or expanding the negotiation protocol to become more like eg: a bus between
> the autonomic agents across a larger topology. For both of those
> purposed, the ACP would also be reuseable/beneficial.
>
> So, if folks feel we should separate out a use-case draft for the ACP,
> maybe with exactly those two points listed above (as we presented at the BOF),
> that would be fine. I think after having gone through the exercise of the BOF
> and slides there i have a clearer idea how we can cut end appropriately expand
> the text to have two documents.
>
> Cheers
>      Toerless
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Toerless,<br>
      <br>
      I think it will be more clear for the future discussions to have
      two separate documents.<br>
      <br>
      Just my two cents. Laurent.<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/08/2014 14:04, Toerless Eckert
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:20140807120453.GB26022@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 11:14:55AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">On 06/08/2014 01:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl)
Sent: 05 August 2014 13:48
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter

Hi Michael,
I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good, great work.
I just have a comment on the following milestone:
-Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)

Use cases drafts are usually informational documents: any reasons to
propose this one as standard track?
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">
Thanks for your support Roberta. I wouldn't read too much into the details at this point ;-) There are a number of things to look. A use case could be either an informative description how an autonomic service agent acts, using standard protocols; in which case it would be informational; if it requires some protocol extension or similar, there may be some standards track involved as well. We'll see once we have the use case clear. 
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Indeed. The chances are that Roberta is correct. The other question of
course is which use case we should pick.

As a matter of fact, the proposed work item on an autonomic control
plane, definitely aimed at the standards track, is itself also a
use case (you could say that it's autonomic networking eating its
own dog food).
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Thanks, Brian

To put this into perspective: 

Brian asked originally before the BOF for a clear separation of use-case and
solution drafts. an we didn't get that done in time for Toronto due to ENOTIME,
so we had both aspects in one draft.  We could of course still do this now before 
Honolulu if thats still desirable.

The ACP definition in the charter would be the standards track target
solution/technology.

The use-cases for ACP would be what we showed during the BOF and potentially
even more:

What we showed:

  1. "Virtual DCE" or "free Autonomic inband OAM network"
  
  2. avoidance of incremental pre-stating configuring during boostrap 
     of larger topologies. 

     This is "eat your own dog-food", because it allows to improve the bootstrap.

The "even more" refers to further autonomic functions like autonomic agents,
or expanding the negotiation protocol to become more like eg: a bus between
the autonomic agents across a larger topology. For both of those
purposed, the ACP would also be reuseable/beneficial.

So, if folks feel we should separate out a use-case draft for the ACP,
maybe with exactly those two points listed above (as we presented at the BOF),
that would be fine. I think after having gone through the exercise of the BOF
and slides there i have a clearer idea how we can cut end appropriately expand
the text to have two documents.

Cheers
    Toerless

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
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              class="SpellE">Villejust</span> | 91620 NOZAY | France<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 09:18:18 -0400
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To: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>,  Arran Cudbard-Bell <a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C0358B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <ADB1307A-F4CB-4E3E-A990-717C00A0B3BD@freeradius.org> <53E371F0.2010108@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Weekly call scheduling.
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Hi Michael:

I did not see the agenda invite. Could you please remind me (offline)?

With current 11pm PDT timing, I think you deter lots of people based in 
North America from participating (even on the West Coast).

What about picking 10am EDT = 7am PDT = 4pm Europe = 10pm China = 2am 
New Zealand? This puts one person (I presume) at the disadvantage, but 
keeps time for everyone else within normal waking hours.

{time relative to EDT}
Beijing: +12hrs
New Zealand: +16 hrs
Western Europe: +6hrs
West Coast USA: - 3hrs


On 8/7/2014 8:32 AM, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Dear Arran, all,
>
> The proposed timing has been proposed to match the European (Michael, 
> myself), China (Sheng), New Zealand (Brian) and North America Pacific 
> coast (Toerless) time zones...
>
> Not sure how we can fix this... one option would be to schedule 2 
> calls on the same day...
>
> Best regards, Laurent.
>
> On 07/08/2014 14:11, Arran Cudbard-Bell wrote:
>> On 7 Aug 2014, at 06:53, Michael Behringer (mbehring)<mbehring@cisco.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to be a huge challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST be acceptable. But US east coast is a problem.
>>>
>>> Please respond if:
>>> - you would like to actively participate in these calls
>>> - and the timing is really not feasible where you are.
>> I'd like to actively participate, and 2am isn't really feasible ;)
>>
>> What's the rationale behind the current time?
>>
>> Arran Cudbard-Bell<a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>
>> FreeRADIUS development team
>>
>> FD31 3077 42EC 7FCD 32FE 5EE2 56CF 27F9 30A8 CAA2
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
> -- 
>
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>
> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>
> Research Manager | Project Manager
>
> Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group
>
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>
> phone: +33 160 402 636
>
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
> <mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
>
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>
>
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Michael:<br>
      <br>
      I did not see the agenda invite. Could you please remind me
      (offline)?<br>
      <br>
      With current 11pm PDT timing, I think you deter lots of people
      based in North America from participating (even on the West
      Coast).<br>
      <br>
      What about picking 10am EDT = 7am PDT = 4pm Europe = 10pm China =
      2am New Zealand? This puts one person (I presume) at the
      disadvantage, but keeps time for everyone else within normal
      waking hours.<br>
      <br>
      {time relative to EDT}<br>
      Beijing: +12hrs<br>
      New Zealand: +16 hrs<br>
      Western Europe: +6hrs<br>
      West Coast USA: - 3hrs<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 8/7/2014 8:32 AM, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:53E371F0.2010108@alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <font face="Courier New">Dear Arran, all,<br>
        <br>
        The proposed timing has been proposed to match the European
        (Michael, myself), China (Sheng), New Zealand (Brian) and North
        America Pacific coast (Toerless) time zones...<br>
        <br>
        Not sure how we can fix this... one option would be to schedule
        2 calls on the same day...<br>
        <br>
        Best regards, Laurent.<br>
        <br>
      </font>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/08/2014 14:11, Arran
        Cudbard-Bell wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:ADB1307A-F4CB-4E3E-A990-717C00A0B3BD@freeradius.org"
        type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">On 7 Aug 2014, at 06:53, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to be a huge challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST be acceptable. But US east coast is a problem. 

Please respond if: 
- you would like to actively participate in these calls
- and the timing is really not feasible where you are. 
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">I'd like to actively participate, and 2am isn't really feasible ;)

What's the rationale behind the current time?

Arran Cudbard-Bell <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:a.cudbardb@freeradius.org">&lt;a.cudbardb@freeradius.org&gt;</a>
FreeRADIUS development team

FD31 3077 42EC 7FCD 32FE 5EE2 56CF 27F9 30A8 CAA2

</pre>
        <br>
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        <br>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 06:25:50 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Thanks, Lauren

I think i may have failed my PhD in word smithing, 
and you reminded me of the term identifier:

So: in the examples i used, should we call the MAC and IP addresses
the "identifier", and the only node identity is only AN domain S-UDI 
and then we can talk about "secure linkage" between node identity and 
various identifiers we may want to use ?

With this terminology, should we call the MIC (Manufacturing Installed
Certificate) a secure identifier that we use during bootstrap to
assign the node identity (AN domain S-UDI) to the device ?

Any certified word smith PhDs, please ? ;-))

Cheers
   
On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 03:11:51PM +0200, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I agree with Toerless. Nice example.
> 
> What we need is:
>     -a unique definition of the concept "node identity" in the scope of 
> the autonomic network infrastructures. I not even sure that we should 
> talk about "_node_ identify" but rather "_function_ identity" - or a 
> hierarchy of identities e.g. atomic function identity + group of 
> functions identity. also, are we clear that we talk about identity or 
> identifier?
> 
>     -consistency across the actors/layers/protocols/whatever is 
> involved about the identities being used.
> 
>     -translation mechanisms to ensure the above consistency.
> 
> But maybe before debating this "details": to what the "node identity" 
> initially defined in the charter do refers to...?
> 
> Regards, Laurent.
> 
> 
> On 07/08/2014 13:44, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> >Leo,
> >
> >I am not sure what you imply with "exactly the same" in 1. Maybe you can 
> >give
> >the most simple example where we are not doing it "exactly he same" and
> >that you think might be useful ?
> >
> >To me, i can see a lot of functions that "naturally" might use different 
> >identities.
> >Eg: LAN protocol where the MAC address is the "natural" identity of a node.
> >L3 protocols where the IP address is a natural identity of the node. But 
> >then
> >you want to make sure there is security and protection against 
> >errors/duplicate
> >address/identity, and you end up creating a mapping to a more trustworthy 
> >identity.
> >
> >Example ACP: I can run protocols via IPv6 inside the ACP between nodes. So
> >the IPv6 address becomes the natural node identity. So, how do i secure 
> >this ?
> >Well, i do not need to add a separate layer of security to each such 
> >protocol,
> >because all those packets within the ACP have been received via secured 
> >ACP channels,
> >and that underlying channel is secured - with the secure node identity, 
> >eg: S-UDI.
> >So i have an implicit mapping between S-UDI as the primary, secure node 
> >identity,
> >and some protocol specific identity such as the IPv6 address it has inside 
> >the ACP.
> >
> >Does this match your "exatly the same" - or not ?
> >
> >Cheers
> >     Toerless
> >
> >On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 02:56:23AM +0000, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
> >>Hi Brian & Michael,
> >>
> >>Thanks for your explanations. I have some rough thoughts as following, 
> >>which maybe already addressed by former discussion that I haven't 
> >>followed.
> >>
> >>There might be two ways for the global features in "Solutions" section:
> >>1. The global features are unified, e.g., the node identities in 
> >>config-negotiation-protocol, bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and 
> >>autonomic-control-plane are exactly the same.
> >>2. The global features are covered in each specific mechanism, but they 
> >>might have different designs to respectively fit their goals more 
> >>sufficiently.
> >>I think maybe we need to make it more clearer.
> >>
> >>Personally, I'm a little concerned that whether choice 1 could be 
> >>achieved in real design. May I ask your thoughts?
> >>
> >>Best regards,
> >>Bing
> >>  
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> >>>Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 4:33 AM
> >>>To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> >>>Cc: Liubing (Leo); anima@ietf.org
> >>>Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> >>>
> >>>I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct that
> >>>some features have global importance. I would expect that the documents
> >>>will all have normative dependencies on the others, and it is part of 
> >>>the work
> >>>to ensure that they are consistent.
> >>>
> >>>     Brian
> >>>
> >>>On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> >>>>Bing,
> >>>>
> >>>>The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. 
> >>>>Identity,
> >>>security, etc.
> >>>>The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete
> >>>deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
> >>>>We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my
> >>>worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of 
> >>>the
> >>>above points.
> >>>>Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
> >>>>Michael
> >>>>
> >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
> >>>>>Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
> >>>>>To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> >>>>>Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Hi Michael,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and 
> >>>>>feasible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>But I was a little confused about:
> >>>>>>The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> >>>>>>o identity of nodes
> >>>>>>o common security model
> >>>>>>o discovery model
> >>>>>>o negotiation model
> >>>>>>o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
> >>>>>>example for an autonomic management model
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The goals of this working group are:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
> >>>>>>autonomic functions
> >>>>>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> >>>>>>o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> >>>>>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> >>>>>>o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> >>>>>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
> >>>>>It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3
> >>>>>documents? But some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be
> >>>>>common issues, so I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover
> >>>>>all the targeted solutions?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Best regards,
> >>>>>Bing
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >>>>>>Behringer (mbehring)
> >>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
> >>>>>>To: anima@ietf.org
> >>>>>>Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
> >>>>>>on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and
> >>>>>>I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
> >>>>>>Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
> >>>>>>discussion only
> >>>>>so far.
> >>>>>>The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
> >>>>>>continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
> >>>>>>realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
> >>>>>>achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,
> >>>>>>expand after
> >>>>>re-chartering.
> >>>>>>Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Thanks,
> >>>>>>Michael
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Description of Working Group
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
> >>>>>elements.
> >>>>>>An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
> >>>>>>network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
> >>>>>>Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
> >>>>>>protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
> >>>>>>discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept
> >>>into
> >>>>>>concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in
> >>>>>>the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to
> >>>>>>define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap
> >>>analysis.
> >>>>>>The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
> >>>>>>model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
> >>>>>>the gap analysis for AN is described in
> >>>>>>draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
> >>>>>>90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above
> >>>>>>work serves as a baseline for this working group.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>This working group defines solutions for an initial set of
> >>>>>>components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the
> >>>>>>simple architecture and design goals defined in
> >>>>>>draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
> >>>>>network-definitions.
> >>>>>>Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
> >>>>>>support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
> >>>>>working
> >>>>>>group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> >>>>>>o identity of nodes
> >>>>>>o common security model
> >>>>>>o discovery model
> >>>>>>o negotiation model
> >>>>>>o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
> >>>>>>example for an autonomic management model
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The goals of this working group are:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
> >>>>>>autonomic functions
> >>>>>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> >>>>>>o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> >>>>>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> >>>>>>o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> >>>>>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
> >>>>>>specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
> >>>>>>simple example as a test case for further work.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
> >>>>>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
> >>>>>>focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents
> >>>>>>concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components,
> >>>>>>use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as
> >>>>>>individual submissions, but are not planned as working group
> >>>>>>deliverables for now. No additional work items will be accepted in
> >>>>>>the working group
> >>>>>without re-chartering.
> >>>>>>Milestones
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
> >>>>>>            - Mar IETF -
> >>>>>>Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
> >>>>>>            - Jul IETF -
> >>>>>>Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to
> >>>>>>IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC
> >>>>>>draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
> >>>>>>            - Nov IETF -
> >>>>>>Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
> >>>>>>(standards
> >>>>>>track)
> >>>>>>Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
> >>>>>>2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
> >>>>>>            - Mar IETF -
> >>>>>>Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
> >>>>>>(standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>--
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>>Anima mailing list
> >>>>>>Anima@ietf.org
> >>>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Anima mailing list
> >>>>Anima@ietf.org
> >>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >>>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Anima mailing list
> >>Anima@ietf.org
> >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >_______________________________________________
> >Anima mailing list
> >Anima@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
> 
> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
> 
> Research Manager | Project Manager
> 
> Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group
> 
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
> 
> phone: +33 160 402 636
> 
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
> <mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
> 
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>
> 
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France
> 

-- 
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com
Cisco NSSTG Systems & Technology Architecture
SDN: Let me play with the network, mommy!


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Overall I think that we should provide more details on what is 
meant/covered by the list
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o an example for an autonomic management model

how have these elements been selected (i.e. outcome of the gap analysis 
draft?), why are they important? and what are the design/operation 
implications behind those elements, how do they relate together (if they 
do)?

Laurent.


On 06/08/2014 22:33, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct
> that some features have global importance. I would expect that
> the documents will all have normative dependencies on the others,
> and it is part of the work to ensure that they are consistent.
>
>      Brian
>
> On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> Bing,
>>
>> The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. Identity, security, etc.
>> The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
>>
>> We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of the above points.
>>
>> Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
>> Michael
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
>>> Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>>>
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and feasible.
>>>
>>> But I was a little confused about:
>>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>>> o identity of nodes
>>>> o common security model
>>>> o discovery model
>>>> o negotiation model
>>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
>>>> for an autonomic management model
>>>>
>>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>>
>>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>> autonomic functions
>>>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>> It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3 documents? But
>>> some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be common issues, so
>>> I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover all the targeted
>>> solutions?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Bing
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
>>>> To: anima@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>>>
>>>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>>>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
>>>> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>>>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only
>>> so far.
>>>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>>>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>>>
>>>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>>>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>>>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after
>>> re-chartering.
>>>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>>>
>>>> Description of Working Group
>>>>
>>>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
>>> elements.
>>>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>>>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>>>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>>>
>>>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
>>>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
>>>> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
>>>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
>>>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>>>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>>>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
>>>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work
>>>> serves as a baseline for this working group.
>>>>
>>>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
>>>> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
>>>> architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
>>> network-definitions.
>>>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
>>>> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
>>> working
>>>> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>>>
>>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>>> o identity of nodes
>>>> o common security model
>>>> o discovery model
>>>> o negotiation model
>>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
>>>> for an autonomic management model
>>>>
>>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>>
>>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>> autonomic functions
>>>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>>
>>>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>>>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>>>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>>>
>>>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>>>    Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>>>
>>>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>>>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
>>>> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
>>>> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
>>>> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
>>>> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
>>> without re-chartering.
>>>> Milestones
>>>>
>>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>>>             - Mar IETF -
>>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>>>             - Jul IETF -
>>>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
>>>> (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
>>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>>>             - Nov IETF -
>>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
>>>> (standards
>>>> track)
>>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
>>>> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>>>             - Mar IETF -
>>>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>>>> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Overall I think that we should provide more
      details on what is meant/covered by the list <br>
      o identity of nodes<br>
      o common security model<br>
      o discovery model<br>
      o negotiation model<br>
      o a secure and logically separated communications channel <br>
      o an example for an autonomic management model<br>
      <br>
      how have these elements been selected (i.e. outcome of the gap
      analysis draft?), why are they important? and what are the
      design/operation implications behind those elements, how do they
      relate together (if they do)?<br>
      <br>
      Laurent.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/08/2014 22:33, Brian E Carpenter
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:53E290FC.2030606@gmail.com" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct
that some features have global importance. I would expect that
the documents will all have normative dependencies on the others,
and it is part of the work to ensure that they are consistent.

    Brian

On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Bing, 

The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. Identity, security, etc. 
The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two. 

We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of the above points. 

Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
Michael

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Liubing (Leo) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com">mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>]
Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter

Hi Michael,

The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and feasible.

But I was a little confused about:
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">The solutions target to cover the following areas:
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3 documents? But
some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be common issues, so
I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover all the targeted
solutions?

Best regards,
Bing

</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Michael
Behringer (mbehring)
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter

At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">so far.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.

If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">re-chartering.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.

Thanks,
Michael


Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG

Description of Working Group

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">elements.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.

To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
the gap analysis for AN is described in
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work
serves as a baseline for this working group.

This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">network-definitions.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">working
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.

The solutions target to cover the following areas:
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
simple example as a test case for further work.

o Definition of &lt;a selected use case by the group&gt;
  Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">without re-chartering.
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">Milestones

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
           - Mar IETF -
Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
           - Jul IETF -
Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
(standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
           - Nov IETF -
Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
(standards
track)
Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
           - Mar IETF -
Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
(standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close

--

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
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              class="SpellE">Villejust</span> | 91620 NOZAY | France<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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From nobody Thu Aug  7 07:47:50 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Toerless,

Sorry, not answering directly your question and adding more noise to 
this (interesting) discussion ;)

I think we are starting to touch on some design aspects with identity.
The question of identifiers is for me more of the level of 
solution/implementation (yet still important to understand and address).

Beyond the identity, we can relate the concept of policy/intent, and 
manifest (or descriptor) of the node/function capabilities (i.e. think 
also of the link with the "self-knowledge" in the model from 
draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions).
     -policy/intent because even if we do not target individual 
nodes/functions, there is at some point the notion of area, group of 
entities that shall understand what has to be done to match the intent. 
In this process, something has to translate/target the area/group down 
to the individual nodes/functions.
     -manifest/descriptor because if we aim negotiating something among 
autonomic entities, there shall be a proper description of what (e.g. 
parameters, KPIs, capabilities) and what for (mission, purpose, 
objectives). this also applies for the other interactions/coordination 
among autonomic functions at run-time (i.e. ability to model, exchange 
and regulate a seamless interworking of multiple autonomic functions 
behaviors.

So, I know it is still early in the WG (pre-)life but the sooner we 
discuss and clarify/describe unambiguously those key elements, the 
better for the design phase of the protocols and solutions (as I wrote 
on the use cases and requirements: "unclear requirements, poor design 
(if not wrong)", same stands here, unclear concepts may lead us to 
partial/inappropriate design choices).

Regards, Laurent.


On 07/08/2014 15:25, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> Thanks, Lauren
>
> I think i may have failed my PhD in word smithing,
> and you reminded me of the term identifier:
>
> So: in the examples i used, should we call the MAC and IP addresses
> the "identifier", and the only node identity is only AN domain S-UDI
> and then we can talk about "secure linkage" between node identity and
> various identifiers we may want to use ?
>
> With this terminology, should we call the MIC (Manufacturing Installed
> Certificate) a secure identifier that we use during bootstrap to
> assign the node identity (AN domain S-UDI) to the device ?
>
> Any certified word smith PhDs, please ? ;-))
>
> Cheers
>     
> On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 03:11:51PM +0200, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I agree with Toerless. Nice example.
>>
>> What we need is:
>>      -a unique definition of the concept "node identity" in the scope of
>> the autonomic network infrastructures. I not even sure that we should
>> talk about "_node_ identify" but rather "_function_ identity" - or a
>> hierarchy of identities e.g. atomic function identity + group of
>> functions identity. also, are we clear that we talk about identity or
>> identifier?
>>
>>      -consistency across the actors/layers/protocols/whatever is
>> involved about the identities being used.
>>
>>      -translation mechanisms to ensure the above consistency.
>>
>> But maybe before debating this "details": to what the "node identity"
>> initially defined in the charter do refers to...?
>>
>> Regards, Laurent.
>>
>>
>> On 07/08/2014 13:44, Toerless Eckert wrote:
>>> Leo,
>>>
>>> I am not sure what you imply with "exactly the same" in 1. Maybe you can
>>> give
>>> the most simple example where we are not doing it "exactly he same" and
>>> that you think might be useful ?
>>>
>>> To me, i can see a lot of functions that "naturally" might use different
>>> identities.
>>> Eg: LAN protocol where the MAC address is the "natural" identity of a node.
>>> L3 protocols where the IP address is a natural identity of the node. But
>>> then
>>> you want to make sure there is security and protection against
>>> errors/duplicate
>>> address/identity, and you end up creating a mapping to a more trustworthy
>>> identity.
>>>
>>> Example ACP: I can run protocols via IPv6 inside the ACP between nodes. So
>>> the IPv6 address becomes the natural node identity. So, how do i secure
>>> this ?
>>> Well, i do not need to add a separate layer of security to each such
>>> protocol,
>>> because all those packets within the ACP have been received via secured
>>> ACP channels,
>>> and that underlying channel is secured - with the secure node identity,
>>> eg: S-UDI.
>>> So i have an implicit mapping between S-UDI as the primary, secure node
>>> identity,
>>> and some protocol specific identity such as the IPv6 address it has inside
>>> the ACP.
>>>
>>> Does this match your "exatly the same" - or not ?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>      Toerless
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 02:56:23AM +0000, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
>>>> Hi Brian & Michael,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your explanations. I have some rough thoughts as following,
>>>> which maybe already addressed by former discussion that I haven't
>>>> followed.
>>>>
>>>> There might be two ways for the global features in "Solutions" section:
>>>> 1. The global features are unified, e.g., the node identities in
>>>> config-negotiation-protocol, bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and
>>>> autonomic-control-plane are exactly the same.
>>>> 2. The global features are covered in each specific mechanism, but they
>>>> might have different designs to respectively fit their goals more
>>>> sufficiently.
>>>> I think maybe we need to make it more clearer.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I'm a little concerned that whether choice 1 could be
>>>> achieved in real design. May I ask your thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Bing
>>>>   
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 4:33 AM
>>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>> Cc: Liubing (Leo); anima@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct that
>>>>> some features have global importance. I would expect that the documents
>>>>> will all have normative dependencies on the others, and it is part of
>>>>> the work
>>>>> to ensure that they are consistent.
>>>>>
>>>>>      Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>>>> Bing,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered.
>>>>>> Identity,
>>>>> security, etc.
>>>>>> The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete
>>>>> deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
>>>>>> We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my
>>>>> worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of
>>>>> the
>>>>> above points.
>>>>>> Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
>>>>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and
>>>>>>> feasible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I was a little confused about:
>>>>>>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>>>>>>> o identity of nodes
>>>>>>>> o common security model
>>>>>>>> o discovery model
>>>>>>>> o negotiation model
>>>>>>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
>>>>>>>> example for an autonomic management model
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>>>>>> autonomic functions
>>>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>>>>>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>>>>>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>>>>> It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3
>>>>>>> documents? But some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be
>>>>>>> common issues, so I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover
>>>>>>> all the targeted solutions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Bing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>>>>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>> To: anima@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>>>>>>>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and
>>>>>>>> I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>>>>>>>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
>>>>>>>> discussion only
>>>>>>> so far.
>>>>>>>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>>>>>>>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>>>>>>>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>>>>>>>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,
>>>>>>>> expand after
>>>>>>> re-chartering.
>>>>>>>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Description of Working Group
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
>>>>>>> elements.
>>>>>>>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>>>>>>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>>>>>>>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>>>>>>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>>>>>>>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept
>>>>> into
>>>>>>>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in
>>>>>>>> the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to
>>>>>>>> define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap
>>>>> analysis.
>>>>>>>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>>>>>>>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>>>>>>>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>>>>>>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
>>>>>>>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above
>>>>>>>> work serves as a baseline for this working group.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of
>>>>>>>> components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the
>>>>>>>> simple architecture and design goals defined in
>>>>>>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
>>>>>>> network-definitions.
>>>>>>>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
>>>>>>>> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>>>>>>> o identity of nodes
>>>>>>>> o common security model
>>>>>>>> o discovery model
>>>>>>>> o negotiation model
>>>>>>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
>>>>>>>> example for an autonomic management model
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>>>>>> autonomic functions
>>>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>>>>>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>>>>>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>>>>>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>>>>>>>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>>>>>>>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>>>>>>>    Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>>>>>>>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents
>>>>>>>> concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components,
>>>>>>>> use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as
>>>>>>>> individual submissions, but are not planned as working group
>>>>>>>> deliverables for now. No additional work items will be accepted in
>>>>>>>> the working group
>>>>>>> without re-chartering.
>>>>>>>> Milestones
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>>>>>>>             - Mar IETF -
>>>>>>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>>>>>>>             - Jul IETF -
>>>>>>>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to
>>>>>>>> IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC
>>>>>>>> draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>>>>>>>             - Nov IETF -
>>>>>>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
>>>>>>>> (standards
>>>>>>>> track)
>>>>>>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
>>>>>>>> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>>>>>>>             - Mar IETF -
>>>>>>>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>>>>>>>> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>
>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>
>> Research Manager | Project Manager
>>
>> Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group
>>
>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>
>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>
>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
>>
>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>
>>
>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France
>>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Toerless,<br>
      <br>
      Sorry, not answering directly your question and adding more noise
      to this (interesting) discussion ;)<br>
      <br>
      I think we are starting to touch on some design aspects with
      identity.<br>
      The question of identifiers is for me more of the level of
      solution/implementation (yet still important to understand and
      address).<br>
      <br>
      Beyond the identity, we can relate the concept of policy/intent,
      and manifest (or descriptor) of the node/function capabilities
      (i.e. think also of the link with the "self-knowledge" in the
      model from draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions).<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -policy/intent because even if we do not target individual
      nodes/functions, there is at some point the notion of area, group
      of entities that shall understand what has to be done to match the
      intent. In this process, something has to translate/target the
      area/group down to the individual nodes/functions.<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -manifest/descriptor because if we aim negotiating something
      among autonomic entities, there shall be a proper description of
      what (e.g. parameters, KPIs, capabilities) and what for (mission,
      purpose, objectives). this also applies for the other
      interactions/coordination among autonomic functions at run-time
      (i.e. ability to model, exchange and regulate a seamless interworking
      of multiple autonomic functions behaviors.<br>
      <br>
      So, I know it is still early in the WG (pre-)life but the sooner
      we discuss and clarify/describe unambiguously those key elements,
      the better for the design phase of the protocols and solutions (as
      I wrote on the use cases and requirements: "unclear requirements,
      poor design (if not wrong)", same stands here, unclear concepts
      may lead us to partial/inappropriate design choices).<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Laurent. <br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/08/2014 15:25, Toerless Eckert
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:20140807132550.GC26022@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Thanks, Lauren

I think i may have failed my PhD in word smithing, 
and you reminded me of the term identifier:

So: in the examples i used, should we call the MAC and IP addresses
the "identifier", and the only node identity is only AN domain S-UDI 
and then we can talk about "secure linkage" between node identity and 
various identifiers we may want to use ?

With this terminology, should we call the MIC (Manufacturing Installed
Certificate) a secure identifier that we use during bootstrap to
assign the node identity (AN domain S-UDI) to the device ?

Any certified word smith PhDs, please ? ;-))

Cheers
   
On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 03:11:51PM +0200, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hello,

I agree with Toerless. Nice example.

What we need is:
    -a unique definition of the concept "node identity" in the scope of 
the autonomic network infrastructures. I not even sure that we should 
talk about "_node_ identify" but rather "_function_ identity" - or a 
hierarchy of identities e.g. atomic function identity + group of 
functions identity. also, are we clear that we talk about identity or 
identifier?

    -consistency across the actors/layers/protocols/whatever is 
involved about the identities being used.

    -translation mechanisms to ensure the above consistency.

But maybe before debating this "details": to what the "node identity" 
initially defined in the charter do refers to...?

Regards, Laurent.


On 07/08/2014 13:44, Toerless Eckert wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Leo,

I am not sure what you imply with "exactly the same" in 1. Maybe you can 
give
the most simple example where we are not doing it "exactly he same" and
that you think might be useful ?

To me, i can see a lot of functions that "naturally" might use different 
identities.
Eg: LAN protocol where the MAC address is the "natural" identity of a node.
L3 protocols where the IP address is a natural identity of the node. But 
then
you want to make sure there is security and protection against 
errors/duplicate
address/identity, and you end up creating a mapping to a more trustworthy 
identity.

Example ACP: I can run protocols via IPv6 inside the ACP between nodes. So
the IPv6 address becomes the natural node identity. So, how do i secure 
this ?
Well, i do not need to add a separate layer of security to each such 
protocol,
because all those packets within the ACP have been received via secured 
ACP channels,
and that underlying channel is secured - with the secure node identity, 
eg: S-UDI.
So i have an implicit mapping between S-UDI as the primary, secure node 
identity,
and some protocol specific identity such as the IPv6 address it has inside 
the ACP.

Does this match your "exatly the same" - or not ?

Cheers
    Toerless

On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 02:56:23AM +0000, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">Hi Brian &amp; Michael,

Thanks for your explanations. I have some rough thoughts as following, 
which maybe already addressed by former discussion that I haven't 
followed.

There might be two ways for the global features in "Solutions" section:
1. The global features are unified, e.g., the node identities in 
config-negotiation-protocol, bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and 
autonomic-control-plane are exactly the same.
2. The global features are covered in each specific mechanism, but they 
might have different designs to respectively fit their goals more 
sufficiently.
I think maybe we need to make it more clearer.

Personally, I'm a little concerned that whether choice 1 could be 
achieved in real design. May I ask your thoughts?

Best regards,
Bing
 
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 4:33 AM
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
Cc: Liubing (Leo); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter

I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct that
some features have global importance. I would expect that the documents
will all have normative dependencies on the others, and it is part of 
the work
to ensure that they are consistent.

    Brian

On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">Bing,

The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered. 
Identity,
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">security, etc.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but my
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one of 
the
above points.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
Michael

</pre>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Liubing (Leo) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com">mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>]
Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter

Hi Michael,

The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and 
feasible.

But I was a little confused about:
</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">The solutions target to cover the following areas:
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre wrap="">It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3
documents? But some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be
common issues, so I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover
all the targeted solutions?

Best regards,
Bing

</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Michael
Behringer (mbehring)
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter

At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and
I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
discussion only
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre wrap="">so far.
</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.

If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,
expand after
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre wrap="">re-chartering.
</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.

Thanks,
Michael


Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG

Description of Working Group

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre wrap="">elements.
</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.

To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">into
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in
the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to
define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">analysis.
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
the gap analysis for AN is described in
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above
work serves as a baseline for this working group.

This working group defines solutions for an initial set of
components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the
simple architecture and design goals defined in
draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre wrap="">network-definitions.
</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre wrap="">working
</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.

The solutions target to cover the following areas:
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
simple example as a test case for further work.

o Definition of &lt;a selected use case by the group&gt;
  Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents
concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components,
use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as
individual submissions, but are not planned as working group
deliverables for now. No additional work items will be accepted in
the working group
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre wrap="">without re-chartering.
</pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">Milestones

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
           - Mar IETF -
Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
           - Jul IETF -
Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to
IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC
draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
           - Nov IETF -
Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
(standards
track)
Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
           - Mar IETF -
Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
(standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close

--

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
                <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com">laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com</a> 
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com">&lt;mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;</a>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/">&lt;http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/&gt;</a>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France

</pre>
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From: "Roberta Maglione (robmgl)" <robmgl@cisco.com>
To: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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I agree with Laurent, having two separate documents would be more clear.
Thanks
Roberta
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Ciavaglia
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 3:17 PM
To: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter

Toerless,

I think it will be more clear for the future discussions to have two separa=
te documents.

Just my two cents. Laurent.
On 07/08/2014 14:04, Toerless Eckert wrote:

On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 11:14:55AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

On 06/08/2014 01:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

-----Original Message-----

From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl)

Sent: 05 August 2014 13:48

To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)

Cc: anima@ietf.org<mailto:anima@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter



Hi Michael,

I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good, great work.

I just have a comment on the following milestone:

-Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)



Use cases drafts are usually informational documents: any reasons to

propose this one as standard track?



Thanks for your support Roberta. I wouldn't read too much into the details =
at this point ;-) There are a number of things to look. A use case could be=
 either an informative description how an autonomic service agent acts, usi=
ng standard protocols; in which case it would be informational; if it requi=
res some protocol extension or similar, there may be some standards track i=
nvolved as well. We'll see once we have the use case clear.



Indeed. The chances are that Roberta is correct. The other question of

course is which use case we should pick.



As a matter of fact, the proposed work item on an autonomic control

plane, definitely aimed at the standards track, is itself also a

use case (you could say that it's autonomic networking eating its

own dog food).



Thanks, Brian



To put this into perspective:



Brian asked originally before the BOF for a clear separation of use-case an=
d

solution drafts. an we didn't get that done in time for Toronto due to ENOT=
IME,

so we had both aspects in one draft.  We could of course still do this now =
before

Honolulu if thats still desirable.



The ACP definition in the charter would be the standards track target

solution/technology.



The use-cases for ACP would be what we showed during the BOF and potentiall=
y

even more:



What we showed:



  1. "Virtual DCE" or "free Autonomic inband OAM network"



  2. avoidance of incremental pre-stating configuring during boostrap

     of larger topologies.



     This is "eat your own dog-food", because it allows to improve the boot=
strap.



The "even more" refers to further autonomic functions like autonomic agents=
,

or expanding the negotiation protocol to become more like eg: a bus between

the autonomic agents across a larger topology. For both of those

purposed, the ACP would also be reuseable/beneficial.



So, if folks feel we should separate out a use-case draft for the ACP,

maybe with exactly those two points listed above (as we presented at the BO=
F),

that would be fine. I think after having gone through the exercise of the B=
OF

and slides there i have a clearer idea how we can cut end appropriately exp=
and

the text to have two documents.



Cheers

    Toerless



_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



--

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

Laurent Ciavaglia
Research Manager | Project Manager
Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcate=
l-lucent.com>
linkedin: laurentciavaglia<http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I agree=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext=
"> Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Laurent Ciavaglia<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 07, 2014 3:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> anima@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Toerless,<br>
<br>
I think it will be more clear for the future discussions to have two separa=
te documents.<br>
<br>
Just my two cents. Laurent.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-GB">On 07/08/2014 14:04, Toerless Eckert wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 11:14:55AM &#43;1200, Bri=
an E Carpenter wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">On 06/08/2014 01:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring)=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl)<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Sent: 05 August 2014 13:48<o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.=
org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi Michael,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good,=
 great work.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I just have a comment on the following milestone:=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">-Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG&nbs=
p; (standards track)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Use cases drafts are usually informational docume=
nts: any reasons to<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">propose this one as standard track?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks for your support Roberta. I wouldn't read =
too much into the details at this point ;-) There are a number of things to=
 look. A use case could be either an informative description how an autonom=
ic service agent acts, using standard protocols; in which case it would be =
informational; if it requires some protocol extension or similar, there may=
 be some standards track involved as well. We'll see once we have the use c=
ase clear. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Indeed. The chances are that Roberta is correct. =
The other question of<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">course is which use case we should pick.<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">As a matter of fact, the proposed work item on an=
 autonomic control<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">plane, definitely aimed at the standards track, i=
s itself also a<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">use case (you could say that it's autonomic netwo=
rking eating its<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">own dog food).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks, Brian<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">To put this into perspective: <o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Brian asked originally before the BOF for a clear=
 separation of use-case and<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">solution drafts. an we didn't get that done in ti=
me for Toronto due to ENOTIME,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">so we had both aspects in one draft.&nbsp; We cou=
ld of course still do this now before <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Honolulu if thats still desirable.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The ACP definition in the charter would be the st=
andards track target<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">solution/technology.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The use-cases for ACP would be what we showed dur=
ing the BOF and potentially<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">even more:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">What we showed:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp; 1. &quot;Virtual DCE&quot; or &quot;free A=
utonomic inband OAM network&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp;2. avoidance of incremental pre-stati=
ng configuring during boostrap <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of larger topologie=
s. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is &quot;eat your o=
wn dog-food&quot;, because it allows to improve the bootstrap.<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">The &quot;even more&quot; refers to further auton=
omic functions like autonomic agents,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">or expanding the negotiation protocol to become m=
ore like eg: a bus between<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">the autonomic agents across a larger topology. Fo=
r both of those<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">purposed, the ACP would also be reuseable/benefic=
ial.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">So, if folks feel we should separate out a use-ca=
se draft for the ACP,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">maybe with exactly those two points listed above =
(as we presented at the BOF),<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">that would be fine. I think after having gone thr=
ough the exercise of the BOF<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">and slides there i have a clearer idea how we can=
 cut end appropriately expand<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">the text to have two documents.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Toerless<o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">_______________________________________________<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Anima mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org<=
/a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB">-- <br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Bien cordialement, Best reg=
ards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuch=
et MS , sans-serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Laurent Ciavaglia</span></b><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
MS , sans-serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Research Manager | Project Manager=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
MS , sans-serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Network Algorithms, Protocols and =
Security Group</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
MS , sans-serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
MS , sans-serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">phone</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS , sans-serif&quot;,&quot;se=
rif&quot;">: &#43;33&nbsp;160 402&nbsp;636
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">email</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet MS , sans-serif&quot;,&quot;se=
rif&quot;">:
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><a href=3D"mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-luc=
ent.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.=
com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
MS , sans-serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">linkedin:
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><a href=3D"http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentcia=
vaglia/"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">laurentciavaglia</span></a><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;lin=
e-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet =
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From: Arran Cudbard-Bell <a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 14:08:35 -0400
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References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C0358B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <ADB1307A-F4CB-4E3E-A990-717C00A0B3BD@freeradius.org> <53E371F0.2010108@alcatel-lucent.com> <53E37C9A.1000703@gmail.com>
To: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
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Cc: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Weekly call scheduling.
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On 7 Aug 2014, at 09:18, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Michael:
>=20
> I did not see the agenda invite. Could you please remind me (offline)?
>=20
> With current 11pm PDT timing, I think you deter lots of people based =
in North America from participating (even on the West Coast).
>=20
> What about picking 10am EDT =3D 7am PDT =3D 4pm Europe =3D 10pm China =
=3D 2am New Zealand? This puts one person (I presume) at the =
disadvantage, but keeps time for everyone else within normal waking =
hours.
>=20
> {time relative to EDT}
> Beijing: +12hrs
> New Zealand: +16 hrs
> Western Europe: +6hrs
> West Coast USA: - 3hrs

Yep, was going to suggest something similar. That's about the times I =
use
for meetings with APAC customers.

-Arran

Arran Cudbard-Bell <a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>
FreeRADIUS development team

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To: "'Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)'" <mbehring@cisco.com>, <anima@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/8JkF7gOo0SEu4Z58cistR5gpw14
Subject: Re: [Anima] Weekly call scheduling.
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Hi,

Other WGs have had success with doodle.com surveys to choose meeting dates
and times.
You can create a survey at doodle.com to see who intends to attend, and give
a selection of times so you can see Good/OK/Bad times for each potential
attendee.
That would allow you a better idea of how many people would be willing to
attend at specific time choices.

And, assuming a small number will be inconvenienced at each extreme of
timing, and so that the same small number of people are not consistently
inconvenienced, you might alternate the meeting times, so that at least
every other meeting is convenient for the participants at each extreme.

David Harrington
ietfdbh@comcast.net
+1-603-828-1401
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Behringer (mbehring)
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 6:54 AM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Weekly call scheduling.
> 
> Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to be a
huge
> challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST be acceptable.
But
> US east coast is a problem.
> 
> Please respond if:
> - you would like to actively participate in these calls
> - and the timing is really not feasible where you are.
> 
> We'll need to find a workable solution for all.
> Michael
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 08:29:23 +1200
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Subject: Re: [Anima] About use case-//RE: ANIMA draft charter
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On 07/08/2014 18:58, Fuyu (Eleven) wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Another question about use case:
> 
>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for 
>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one 
>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>
>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
> 
> Does only one use case could cover all key areas as defined below: 

I think there is a good chance, but analysis will be needed.

> 
>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>> o identity of nodes
>> o common security model
>> o discovery model
>> o negotiation model
>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example 
>> for an autonomic management model
> 
> I think 2-3 typical use cases may be better.

We are in fact proposing 2, this TBD case and the Autonomic
Control Plane case.

   Brian

> 
> BR
> Yu
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Liubing (Leo)
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:00 AM
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] About use case-//RE: ANIMA draft charter
> 
> Hi Michael & All,
> 
> I have another question:
>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
> 
> Will the use case(s) be selected before or after the WG formation?
> 
> Best regards,
> Bing
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
>> Behringer (mbehring)
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
>> To: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>
>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work 
>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I 
>> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs. 
>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only so far.
>>
>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will 
>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>
>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on 
>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, 
>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after re-chartering.
>>
>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>
>> Description of Working Group
>>
>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various 
>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting. 
>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing 
>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own 
>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>
>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into 
>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the 
>> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define 
>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis. 
>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture 
>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; 
>> the gap analysis for AN is described in 
>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work 
>> serves as a baseline for this working group.
>>
>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components 
>> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple 
>> architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions.
>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to 
>> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima working 
>> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>
>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>> o identity of nodes
>> o common security model
>> o discovery model
>> o negotiation model
>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example 
>> for an autonomic management model
>>
>> The goals of this working group are:
>>
>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for 
>> autonomic functions
>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>
>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for 
>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one 
>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>
>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>
>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay 
>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning 
>> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or 
>> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual 
>> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for 
>> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group without re-chartering.
>>
>> Milestones
>>
>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>            - Mar IETF -
>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>            - Jul IETF -
>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG 
>> (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap 
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>            - Nov IETF -
>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG  
>> (standards
>> track)
>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan 
>> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>            - Mar IETF -
>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG 
>> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 08:35:02 +1200
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Weekly call scheduling.
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Rene,

We aren't even a chartered activity yet, and a small group of
protagonists is trying to fix that. The proposed time is a
compromise between those protagonists. In this case, it's
the US East Coast that loses out. Frankly, after twenty years
in IETF activities dominated by US time zones, I do not
apologise for that.

If we get as far as a chartered WG, we would clearly have to
rethink the timing, and there would be WG chairs to drive
a consensus.

     Brian






On 08/08/2014 01:18, Rene Struik wrote:
> Hi Michael:
> 
> I did not see the agenda invite. Could you please remind me (offline)?
> 
> With current 11pm PDT timing, I think you deter lots of people based in
> North America from participating (even on the West Coast).
> 
> What about picking 10am EDT = 7am PDT = 4pm Europe = 10pm China = 2am
> New Zealand? This puts one person (I presume) at the disadvantage, but
> keeps time for everyone else within normal waking hours.
> 
> {time relative to EDT}
> Beijing: +12hrs
> New Zealand: +16 hrs
> Western Europe: +6hrs
> West Coast USA: - 3hrs
> 
> 
> On 8/7/2014 8:32 AM, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
>> Dear Arran, all,
>>
>> The proposed timing has been proposed to match the European (Michael,
>> myself), China (Sheng), New Zealand (Brian) and North America Pacific
>> coast (Toerless) time zones...
>>
>> Not sure how we can fix this... one option would be to schedule 2
>> calls on the same day...
>>
>> Best regards, Laurent.
>>
>> On 07/08/2014 14:11, Arran Cudbard-Bell wrote:
>>> On 7 Aug 2014, at 06:53, Michael Behringer
>>> (mbehring)<mbehring@cisco.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to
>>>> be a huge challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST
>>>> be acceptable. But US east coast is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Please respond if:
>>>> - you would like to actively participate in these calls
>>>> - and the timing is really not feasible where you are.
>>> I'd like to actively participate, and 2am isn't really feasible ;)
>>>
>>> What's the rationale behind the current time?
>>>
>>> Arran Cudbard-Bell<a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>
>>> FreeRADIUS development team
>>>
>>> FD31 3077 42EC 7FCD 32FE 5EE2 56CF 27F9 30A8 CAA2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>
>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>
>> Research Manager | Project Manager
>>
>> Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group
>>
>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>
>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>
>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
>>
>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>
>>
>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 08:43:07 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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On 08/08/2014 02:28, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Overall I think that we should provide more details on what is
> meant/covered by the list
> o identity of nodes
> o common security model
> o discovery model
> o negotiation model
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
> o an example for an autonomic management model
> 
> how have these elements been selected (i.e. outcome of the gap analysis
> draft?), why are they important?

I would say that they come partly from the gap analysis and partly from
some insights during solutions work (both by Huawei and Cisco). But this
could be integrated in the gap analysis draft, I think.

> and what are the design/operation
> implications behind those elements, how do they relate together (if they
> do)?

Those points are more on the solutions side IMHO.

   Brian


> 
> Laurent.
> 
> 
> On 06/08/2014 22:33, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct
>> that some features have global importance. I would expect that
>> the documents will all have normative dependencies on the others,
>> and it is part of the work to ensure that they are consistent.
>>
>>      Brian
>>
>> On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> Bing,
>>>
>>> The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered.
>>> Identity, security, etc.
>>> The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete
>>> deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
>>>
>>> We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant, but
>>> my worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss
>>> one of the above points.
>>>
>>> Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
>>>> Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>>>>
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>
>>>> The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and
>>>> feasible.
>>>>
>>>> But I was a little confused about:
>>>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>>>> o identity of nodes
>>>>> o common security model
>>>>> o discovery model
>>>>> o negotiation model
>>>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
>>>>> for an autonomic management model
>>>>>
>>>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>>>
>>>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>>> autonomic functions
>>>>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>> It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3
>>>> documents? But
>>>> some of the items such as "identity of nodes" might be common
>>>> issues, so
>>>> I'm not sure whether the 3 documents could cover all the targeted
>>>> solutions?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Bing
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
>>>>> To: anima@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>>>>
>>>>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>>>>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
>>>>> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>>>>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
>>>>> discussion only
>>>> so far.
>>>>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>>>>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>>>>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>>>>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,
>>>>> expand after
>>>> re-chartering.
>>>>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>>>>
>>>>> Description of Working Group
>>>>>
>>>>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
>>>> elements.
>>>>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>>>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>>>>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>>>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>>>>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>>>>
>>>>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
>>>>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
>>>>> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
>>>>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
>>>>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>>>>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>>>>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>>>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
>>>>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work
>>>>> serves as a baseline for this working group.
>>>>>
>>>>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
>>>>> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
>>>>> architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
>>>> network-definitions.
>>>>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
>>>>> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
>>>> working
>>>>> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>>>>
>>>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>>>> o identity of nodes
>>>>> o common security model
>>>>> o discovery model
>>>>> o negotiation model
>>>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an example
>>>>> for an autonomic management model
>>>>>
>>>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>>>
>>>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>>> autonomic functions
>>>>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>>>>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>>>>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>>>>
>>>>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>>>>    Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>>>>
>>>>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>>>>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
>>>>> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
>>>>> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
>>>>> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
>>>>> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
>>>> without re-chartering.
>>>>> Milestones
>>>>>
>>>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>>>>             - Mar IETF -
>>>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>>>>             - Jul IETF -
>>>>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
>>>>> (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
>>>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>>>>             - Nov IETF -
>>>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
>>>>> (standards
>>>>> track)
>>>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track) Jan
>>>>> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>>>>             - Mar IETF -
>>>>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>>>>> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From nobody Thu Aug  7 13:49:42 2014
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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 16:49:25 -0400
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C0358B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <ADB1307A-F4CB-4E3E-A990-717C00A0B3BD@freeradius.org> <53E371F0.2010108@alcatel-lucent.com> <53E37C9A.1000703@gmail.com> <53E3E2F6.5080107@gmail.com>
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Cc: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Arran Cudbard-Bell <a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Weekly call scheduling.
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Well. Michael Behringer asked for feedback, which I provided...

There were more than 200 people at the BOF and, true, with my suggested 
time New Zealand (your domicile) looses out for the first call, but none 
of the other 199+ people might have a sleep cycle excuse to dial-in and 
broaden the net. This is important, since I presume this is about 
charter text stuff (although I have not seen the agenda).

Rene

  On 8/7/2014 4:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Rene,
>
> We aren't even a chartered activity yet, and a small group of
> protagonists is trying to fix that. The proposed time is a
> compromise between those protagonists. In this case, it's
> the US East Coast that loses out. Frankly, after twenty years
> in IETF activities dominated by US time zones, I do not
> apologise for that.
>
> If we get as far as a chartered WG, we would clearly have to
> rethink the timing, and there would be WG chairs to drive
> a consensus.
>
>       Brian
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 08/08/2014 01:18, Rene Struik wrote:
>> Hi Michael:
>>
>> I did not see the agenda invite. Could you please remind me (offline)?
>>
>> With current 11pm PDT timing, I think you deter lots of people based in
>> North America from participating (even on the West Coast).
>>
>> What about picking 10am EDT = 7am PDT = 4pm Europe = 10pm China = 2am
>> New Zealand? This puts one person (I presume) at the disadvantage, but
>> keeps time for everyone else within normal waking hours.
>>
>> {time relative to EDT}
>> Beijing: +12hrs
>> New Zealand: +16 hrs
>> Western Europe: +6hrs
>> West Coast USA: - 3hrs
>>
>>
>> On 8/7/2014 8:32 AM, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
>>> Dear Arran, all,
>>>
>>> The proposed timing has been proposed to match the European (Michael,
>>> myself), China (Sheng), New Zealand (Brian) and North America Pacific
>>> coast (Toerless) time zones...
>>>
>>> Not sure how we can fix this... one option would be to schedule 2
>>> calls on the same day...
>>>
>>> Best regards, Laurent.
>>>
>>> On 07/08/2014 14:11, Arran Cudbard-Bell wrote:
>>>> On 7 Aug 2014, at 06:53, Michael Behringer
>>>> (mbehring)<mbehring@cisco.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the invite I just sent, note that the timing is going to
>>>>> be a huge challenge. Right now the call is 11pm PST, which may JUST
>>>>> be acceptable. But US east coast is a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please respond if:
>>>>> - you would like to actively participate in these calls
>>>>> - and the timing is really not feasible where you are.
>>>> I'd like to actively participate, and 2am isn't really feasible ;)
>>>>
>>>> What's the rationale behind the current time?
>>>>
>>>> Arran Cudbard-Bell<a.cudbardb@freeradius.org>
>>>> FreeRADIUS development team
>>>>
>>>> FD31 3077 42EC 7FCD 32FE 5EE2 56CF 27F9 30A8 CAA2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>>
>>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>>
>>> Research Manager | Project Manager
>>>
>>> Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group
>>>
>>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>>
>>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>>
>>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
>>> <mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
>>>
>>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>
>>>
>>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
Thread-Index: Ac+whaNUJ9wvrf9wQzauyZpxuIFp7wA1mf2gAAZDUfD///rsAP//HvhQgAHfoQD//ptuQA==
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 07:18:24 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Hi Toerless,

Please see replies inline.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 7:44 PM
> To: Liubing (Leo)
> Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>=20
> Leo,
>=20
> I am not sure what you imply with "exactly the same" in 1. Maybe you can
> give the most simple example where we are not doing it "exactly he same"
> and that you think might be useful ?
>=20
> To me, i can see a lot of functions that "naturally" might use different
> identities.
> Eg: LAN protocol where the MAC address is the "natural" identity of a nod=
e.
> L3 protocols where the IP address is a natural identity of the node. But =
then
> you want to make sure there is security and protection against
> errors/duplicate address/identity, and you end up creating a mapping to a
> more trustworthy identity.

> Example ACP: I can run protocols via IPv6 inside the ACP between nodes. S=
o
> the IPv6 address becomes the natural node identity. So, how do i secure
> this ?
> Well, i do not need to add a separate layer of security to each such prot=
ocol,
> because all those packets within the ACP have been received via secured A=
CP
> channels, and that underlying channel is secured - with the secure node
> identity, eg: S-UDI.
> So i have an implicit mapping between S-UDI as the primary, secure node
> identity, and some protocol specific identity such as the IPv6 address it=
 has
> inside the ACP.

[Bing] I also agree with that "identifier" should be a more proper word.
My own understanding is that "identifier" is just numbers; it is not clear =
to me whether we need something beyond numbers, for example, we could make =
"identity" relate to something such as role/capability/features .etc.
In this sense, I also consider the S-UDI as "identifier". But it is a devic=
e identifier than L2/L3 interface identifier.

> Does this match your "exatly the same" - or not ?
[Bing] Sorry for the ambiguous wording. Let me have a redundant explanation=
: some features in "solution" section of the charter might be common to all=
 the three chartered documents/mechanisms (ACP, config-negotiation-protocol=
, and bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures). When I said "exactly the same", I =
meant the three mechanisms will share the same design of the common feature=
s (This is choice 1 in my previous mail). For example, assuming we choose S=
-UDI as the identity design, then ACP, negotiation-protocol and bootstrappi=
ng-keyinfrastructures would use exactly the same format and semantic of the=
 S-UDI.=20

Best regards,
Bing


> Cheers
>     Toerless
>=20
> On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 02:56:23AM +0000, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
> > Hi Brian & Michael,
> >
> > Thanks for your explanations. I have some rough thoughts as following,
> which maybe already addressed by former discussion that I haven't followe=
d.
> >
> > There might be two ways for the global features in "Solutions" section:
> > 1. The global features are unified, e.g., the node identities in
> config-negotiation-protocol, bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and
> autonomic-control-plane are exactly the same.
> > 2. The global features are covered in each specific mechanism, but they
> might have different designs to respectively fit their goals more suffici=
ently.
> > I think maybe we need to make it more clearer.
> >
> > Personally, I'm a little concerned that whether choice 1 could be achie=
ved
> in real design. May I ask your thoughts?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bing
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 4:33 AM
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > Cc: Liubing (Leo); anima@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I would change the document plan, but Bing is correct
> > > that some features have global importance. I would expect that the
> > > documents will all have normative dependencies on the others, and it
> > > is part of the work to ensure that they are consistent.
> > >
> > >     Brian
> > >
> > > On 07/08/2014 00:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > > > Bing,
> > > >
> > > > The "solutions" section is high level what needs to be covered.
> > > > Identity,
> > > security, etc.
> > > > The "goals" are putting the above abstract concepts into concrete
> > > deliverables, and there is an  (implicit) mapping between the two.
> > > >
> > > > We could drop the first part, because it seems a bit redundant,
> > > > but my
> > > worry is that as we modify the goals / deliverables we may miss one
> > > of the above points.
> > > >
> > > > Suggestions welcome if you have an idea how to frame it better.
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Liubing (Leo) [mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com]
> > > >> Sent: 06 August 2014 12:28
> > > >> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> > > >> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi Michael,
> > > >>
> > > >> The proposal looks pretty good. The deliverables are clear and
> feasible.
> > > >>
> > > >> But I was a little confused about:
> > > >>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> > > >>> o identity of nodes
> > > >>> o common security model
> > > >>> o discovery model
> > > >>> o negotiation model
> > > >>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
> > > >>> example for an autonomic management model
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The goals of this working group are:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
> > > >>> autonomic functions
> > > >>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> > > >>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> > > >>>    Starting point:
> > > >>> draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> > > >>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> > > >>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
> > > >> It seems like the solution areas are distributed into the 3
> > > >> documents? But some of the items such as "identity of nodes"
> > > >> might be common issues, so I'm not sure whether the 3 documents
> > > >> could cover all the targeted solutions?
> > > >>
> > > >> Best regards,
> > > >> Bing
> > > >>
> > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> > > >>> Behringer (mbehring)
> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 4:19 PM
> > > >>> To: anima@ietf.org
> > > >>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> > > >>>
> > > >>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the
> > > >>> work on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless,
> > > >>> Laurent and I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the
> input of our ADs.
> > > >>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
> > > >>> discussion only
> > > >> so far.
> > > >>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
> > > >>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
> > > >>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
> > > >>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,
> > > >>> expand after
> > > >> re-chartering.
> > > >>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks,
> > > >>> Michael
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Description of Working Group
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network
> > > >> elements.
> > > >>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
> > > >>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting=
.
> > > >>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
> > > >>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their
> > > >>> own discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept
> > > into
> > > >>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken
> > > >>> in the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF,
> was
> > > >>> to define terminology and design goals, and to derive a
> > > >>> high-level gap
> > > analysis.
> > > >>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple
> > > >>> architecture model are defined in
> > > >>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
> > > >>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
> > > >>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF
> > > >>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the
> > > >>> above work serves as a baseline for this working group.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of
> > > >>> components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on
> > > >>> the simple architecture and design goals defined in
> > > >>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
> > > >> network-definitions.
> > > >>> Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to
> > > >>> support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima
> > > >> working
> > > >>> group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> > > >>> o identity of nodes
> > > >>> o common security model
> > > >>> o discovery model
> > > >>> o negotiation model
> > > >>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an
> > > >>> example for an autonomic management model
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The goals of this working group are:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
> > > >>> autonomic functions
> > > >>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> > > >>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> > > >>>    Starting point:
> > > >>> draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> > > >>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> > > >>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
> > > >>>
> > > >>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined
> > > >>> for specific use cases. The working group will initially
> > > >>> consider one simple example as a test case for further work.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
> > > >>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to
> > > >>> stay focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents
> > > >>> concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure
> > > >>> components, use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly
> > > >>> encouraged, as individual submissions, but are not planned as
> > > >>> working group deliverables for now. No additional work items
> > > >>> will be accepted in the working group
> > > >> without re-chartering.
> > > >>> Milestones
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
> > > >>>            - Mar IETF -
> > > >>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
> > > >>>            - Jul IETF -
> > > >>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
> > > >>> to IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC
> > > >>> draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC
> draft-use-case-tbd
> > > >>>            - Nov IETF -
> > > >>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
> > > >>> (standards
> > > >>> track)
> > > >>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
> > > >>> Jan
> > > >>> 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
> > > >>>            - Mar IETF -
> > > >>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
> > > >>> (standards track) Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Anima mailing list
> > > >>> Anima@ietf.org
> > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Anima mailing list
> > > > Anima@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Aug  8 07:06:20 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] About OSPF // ANIMA draft charter
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Dear all,

During some exchanges on ANIMA, a colleague of mine pointed out the 
following:
Quoting (with slight modifications):

    "Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
    protocols such as OSPF."

    -This statement is discussable: I would have said OSPF is adaptive
    (from the current state only --not previous states- and by means of
    OSPF PDU's only) but certainly not autonomous (in the sense: it
    can't by itself tune its parameter space, in particular to operate
    in its current form OSPF requires that all parameters are identical
    in a given area).

    -Might be worth rephrasing "Limited versions of autonomic
    functions..." or
    "Partially autonomic functions..."

End of quote.

The overall argument being if the starting point of ANIMA (or conclusion 
from NMRG) is the statement that the routing system (one of the most 
prominent function) is already autonomic, then it might cut short 
several areas of work.

Thanks, Laurent.




On 05/08/2014 10:19, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs. Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only so far.
>
> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>
> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after re-chartering.
>
> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
>
> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>
> Description of Working Group
>
> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements. An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting. Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>
> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis. The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap analysis for AN is described in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a baseline for this working group.
>
> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>
> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> o identity of nodes
> o common security model
> o discovery model
> o negotiation model
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
> o an example for an autonomic management model
>
> The goals of this working group are:
>
> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic functions
>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>
> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one simple example as a test case for further work.
>
> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>    Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>
> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group without re-chartering.
>
> Milestones
>
> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>             - Mar IETF -
> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>             - Jul IETF -
> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG (standards track)
> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>             - Nov IETF -
> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG  (standards track)
> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
> Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>             - Mar IETF -
> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG  (standards track)
> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France

  * English - detected
  * English
  * French

  * English
  * French

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    <font face="Courier New">Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      During some exchanges on ANIMA, a colleague of mine pointed out
      the following:<br>
      Quoting (with slight modifications):<br>
    </font>
    <blockquote><font face="Courier New">&#8220;Autonomic functions already
        exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF.&#8221;</font><br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote><font face="Courier New">-This statement is discussable:
        I would have said OSPF is adaptive (from the current state only
        &#8211;not previous states- and by means of OSPF PDU&#8217;s only) but
        certainly not autonomous (in the sense: it can&#8217;t by itself tune
        its parameter space, in particular to operate in its current
        form OSPF requires that all parameters are identical in a given
        area).</font><br>
      <br>
      <font face="Courier New">-Might be worth rephrasing "Limited
        versions of autonomic functions..."</font> or <br>
      "Partially autonomic functions..."<br>
    </blockquote>
    End of quote.<br>
    <br>
    The overall argument being if the starting point of ANIMA (or
    conclusion from NMRG) is the statement that the routing system (one
    of the most prominent function) is already autonomic, then it might
    cut short several areas of work.<br>
    <font face="Courier New"><br>
      Thanks, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/08/2014 10:19, Michael Behringer
      (mbehring) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C000A8@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs. Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for discussion only so far.

The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will continue to be discussed in the NMRG group. 

If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand after re-chartering. 

Please comment here on this draft charter proposal. 

Thanks, 
Michael


Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG

Description of Working Group

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements. An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting. Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms. 

To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis. The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap analysis for AN is described in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a baseline for this working group.

This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple architecture and design goals defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Future work may include a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.

The solutions target to cover the following areas: 
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o an example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are: 

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure 
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one simple example as a test case for further work. 

o Definition of &lt;a selected use case by the group&gt;
  Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group without re-chartering. 

Milestones

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
           - Mar IETF - 
Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
           - Jul IETF - 
Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG (standards track)
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap 
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
           - Nov IETF - 
Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG  (standards track)
Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane 
           - Mar IETF - 
Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG  (standards track)
Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close

--

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>


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From nobody Fri Aug  8 07:30:38 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
Thread-Index: Ac+whaNUJ9wvrf9wQzauyZpxuIFp7wAHV/YAAAPoUcAAA1etgABNLqSAAC2eFwA=
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 14:30:25 +0000
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Cc: "Roberta Maglione \(robmgl\)" <robmgl@cisco.com>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Hi, Toerless,

Yes, two separated document would be much more clearer. However, the use ca=
se description documents was mainly for BoF discussion purpose. For the pot=
ential WG, I don't think an informational use case document would be includ=
ed as a milestone.

So, the best way may be to reorganize the document: start from the descript=
ion as an use case, then explain the technical requirements, then design lo=
gic for a solution, at the end it is the necessary protocol extensions.=20

Best regards,

Sheng

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
>Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 8:05 PM
>To: Brian E Carpenter
>Cc: Roberta Maglione (robmgl); anima@ietf.org; Michael Behringer (mbehring=
)
>Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>
>On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 11:14:55AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 06/08/2014 01:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl)
>> >> Sent: 05 August 2014 13:48
>> >> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> >> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>> >> Subject: RE: ANIMA draft charter
>> >>
>> >> Hi Michael,
>> >> I read the proposed WG charter and it looks good, great work.
>> >> I just have a comment on the following milestone:
>> >> -Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>> >>
>> >> Use cases drafts are usually informational documents: any reasons to
>> >> propose this one as standard track?
>> >
>> > Thanks for your support Roberta. I wouldn't read too much into the det=
ails
>at this point ;-) There are a number of things to look. A use case could b=
e
>either an informative description how an autonomic service agent acts, usi=
ng
>standard protocols; in which case it would be informational; if it require=
s
>some protocol extension or similar, there may be some standards track
>involved as well. We'll see once we have the use case clear.
>>
>> Indeed. The chances are that Roberta is correct. The other question of
>> course is which use case we should pick.
>>
>> As a matter of fact, the proposed work item on an autonomic control
>> plane, definitely aimed at the standards track, is itself also a
>> use case (you could say that it's autonomic networking eating its
>> own dog food).
>
>Thanks, Brian
>
>To put this into perspective:
>
>Brian asked originally before the BOF for a clear separation of use-case a=
nd
>solution drafts. an we didn't get that done in time for Toronto due to
>ENOTIME,
>so we had both aspects in one draft.  We could of course still do this now
>before
>Honolulu if thats still desirable.
>
>The ACP definition in the charter would be the standards track target
>solution/technology.
>
>The use-cases for ACP would be what we showed during the BOF and
>potentially
>even more:
>
>What we showed:
>
>  1. "Virtual DCE" or "free Autonomic inband OAM network"
>
>  2. avoidance of incremental pre-stating configuring during boostrap
>     of larger topologies.
>
>     This is "eat your own dog-food", because it allows to improve the
>bootstrap.
>
>The "even more" refers to further autonomic functions like autonomic agent=
s,
>or expanding the negotiation protocol to become more like eg: a bus
>between
>the autonomic agents across a larger topology. For both of those
>purposed, the ACP would also be reuseable/beneficial.
>
>So, if folks feel we should separate out a use-case draft for the ACP,
>maybe with exactly those two points listed above (as we presented at the
>BOF),
>that would be fine. I think after having gone through the exercise of the =
BOF
>and slides there i have a clearer idea how we can cut end appropriately
>expand
>the text to have two documents.
>
>Cheers
>    Toerless
>
>_______________________________________________
>Anima mailing list
>Anima@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


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Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2014 08:01:44 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] About OSPF // ANIMA draft charter
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Laurent,

I think we already discussed the point that our aim is not to
aim for something like mathematical perfection where every autonomic
device meets every criterion for autonomic behaviour. Maybe this needs
to be explicit in the charter? In any case I would slightly rewrite
the first paragraph:

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network
elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and co-existence
with non-autonomic methods of management. Elements of autonomic functions
already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF.
However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging
and security mechanisms as well as non-autonomic management interfaces.

    Brian

On 09/08/2014 02:05, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> During some exchanges on ANIMA, a colleague of mine pointed out the
> following:
> Quoting (with slight modifications):
> 
>    "Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>    protocols such as OSPF."
> 
>    -This statement is discussable: I would have said OSPF is adaptive
>    (from the current state only --not previous states- and by means of
>    OSPF PDU's only) but certainly not autonomous (in the sense: it
>    can't by itself tune its parameter space, in particular to operate
>    in its current form OSPF requires that all parameters are identical
>    in a given area).
> 
>    -Might be worth rephrasing "Limited versions of autonomic
>    functions..." or
>    "Partially autonomic functions..."
> 
> End of quote.
> 
> The overall argument being if the starting point of ANIMA (or conclusion
> from NMRG) is the statement that the routing system (one of the most
> prominent function) is already autonomic, then it might cut short
> several areas of work.
> 
> Thanks, Laurent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 05/08/2014 10:19, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
>> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
>> discussion only so far.
>>
>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>
>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand
>> after re-chartering.
>>
>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>
>> Description of Working Group
>>
>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>
>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
>> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use
>> cases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a
>> baseline for this working group.
>>
>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
>> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
>> architecture and design goals defined in
>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Future work may include
>> a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of
>> autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initially focus
>> on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>
>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>> o identity of nodes
>> o common security model
>> o discovery model
>> o negotiation model
>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
>> o an example for an autonomic management model
>>
>> The goals of this working group are:
>>
>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>> autonomic functions
>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>
>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>
>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>    Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>
>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
>> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
>> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
>> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
>> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
>> without re-chartering.
>>
>> Milestones
>>
>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>             - Mar IETF -
>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>             - Jul IETF -
>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
>> (standards track)
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>             - Nov IETF -
>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG 
>> (standards track)
>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>> Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>             - Mar IETF -
>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG 
>> (standards track)
>> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Aug  8 16:46:57 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] About OSPF // ANIMA draft charter
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Subject: Re: [Anima] About OSPF // ANIMA draft charter
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The running of OSPF is autonomic. But the initial configuration process of =
OSPF is not autonomic, yet. This should be clearly distinguished in the exa=
mple description. Maybe, we could modified the text to be more precise:

"Elements of autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routi=
ng protocols such as OSPF (although the initial configuration process of OS=
PF is not autonomic, yet.)"

Regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian E Carpenter [brian.=
e.carpenter@gmail.com]
Sent: 09 August 2014 4:01
To: Laurent Ciavaglia
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] About OSPF // ANIMA draft charter

Laurent,

I think we already discussed the point that our aim is not to
aim for something like mathematical perfection where every autonomic
device meets every criterion for autonomic behaviour. Maybe this needs
to be explicit in the charter? In any case I would slightly rewrite
the first paragraph:

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network
elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and co-existence
with non-autonomic methods of management. Elements of autonomic functions
already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF.
However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging
and security mechanisms as well as non-autonomic management interfaces.

    Brian

On 09/08/2014 02:05, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> During some exchanges on ANIMA, a colleague of mine pointed out the
> following:
> Quoting (with slight modifications):
>
>    "Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>    protocols such as OSPF."
>
>    -This statement is discussable: I would have said OSPF is adaptive
>    (from the current state only --not previous states- and by means of
>    OSPF PDU's only) but certainly not autonomous (in the sense: it
>    can't by itself tune its parameter space, in particular to operate
>    in its current form OSPF requires that all parameters are identical
>    in a given area).
>
>    -Might be worth rephrasing "Limited versions of autonomic
>    functions..." or
>    "Partially autonomic functions..."
>
> End of quote.
>
> The overall argument being if the starting point of ANIMA (or conclusion
> from NMRG) is the statement that the routing system (one of the most
> prominent function) is already autonomic, then it might cut short
> several areas of work.
>
> Thanks, Laurent.
>
>
>
>
> On 05/08/2014 10:19, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
>> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
>> discussion only so far.
>>
>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>
>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand
>> after re-chartering.
>>
>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>
>> Description of Working Group
>>
>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>
>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
>> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use
>> cases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a
>> baseline for this working group.
>>
>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
>> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
>> architecture and design goals defined in
>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Future work may include
>> a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of
>> autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initially focus
>> on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>
>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>> o identity of nodes
>> o common security model
>> o discovery model
>> o negotiation model
>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
>> o an example for an autonomic management model
>>
>> The goals of this working group are:
>>
>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>> autonomic functions
>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>
>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>
>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>    Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>
>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
>> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
>> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
>> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
>> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
>> without re-chartering.
>>
>> Milestones
>>
>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>             - Mar IETF -
>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>             - Jul IETF -
>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
>> (standards track)
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>             - Nov IETF -
>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
>> (standards track)
>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>> Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>             - Mar IETF -
>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>> (standards track)
>> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


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Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 17:18:45 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Anima] Use case analysis
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This may or may not be helpful, but I've had a go at mapping the
UCAN use cases against the criteria that Michael presented in
Toronto. Here's a spreadsheet with the very provisional results.
Input from the use case authors is very much needed; in most cases
I made provocative guesses.

For anyone who is Excel-challenged, I have also attached a
PDF file.

By the way, if anyone wants to propose another use case for
discussion, the sooner the better.

Regards
    Brian




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On 06/08/2014 4:47 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Please send your corrections:
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/minutes/minutes-90-ucan
>
> Regards
>     Brian Carpenter
>
...

A few amplifications, from my hand-written notes (which had a little 
more information than I had expected) and a review of the recording.

In item 6. Open Mic, we have Benoit, then Mark, then Brian. Following 
that my notes have Benoit (but could be someone else) saying that the 
Homenet work has been a massive investment already, but the problem 
statement reads as if it could be thrown away. Charter revisions are 
needed based on the comments just heard. Just agreeing on common 
terminology and a problem statement will be a fair bit of work.

Slightly further down, as well as asking about the procedural way 
forward, Michael Richardson said that this discussion could lead to a 
common understanding of who owns what device. Brian agreed on the 
importance of that issue. Michael said to focus efforts there, and drop 
other issues. He used the term "certificate" in describing the work to 
be done.

Some time after Elliot Lear spoke my notes have Ran Atkinson saying 
there are too many use cases. Anima/UCAN needs 3-4-6 months of work on 
requirements, with a lot more focus. I think that corresponds to the 
bullet under "Chair Questions" following "IT/OT convergence".

Michael Behringer did a final summation which included an action item to 
resolve aany issues with Homenet.

Tom Taylor


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Thnaks Tom. I will edit those points into the minutes in a few days,
with any other comments that come in. Some personal comments below...

On 11/08/2014 07:39, Tom Taylor wrote:
> On 06/08/2014 4:47 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Please send your corrections:
>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/minutes/minutes-90-ucan
>>
>> Regards
>>     Brian Carpenter
>>
> ...
>=20
> A few amplifications, from my hand-written notes (which had a little
> more information than I had expected) and a review of the recording.
>=20
> In item 6. Open Mic, we have Benoit, then Mark, then Brian. Following
> that my notes have Benoit (but could be someone else) saying that the
> Homenet work has been a massive investment already, but the problem
> statement reads as if it could be thrown away.=20

I think that was Mark again? Anyway, Mark was right that my phrasing
was wrong. I meant to convey that my intention was to use the existing
homenet work (i.e. HNCP) as a hypothetical case to extract requirements,
not to propose an alternative or to delay the ongoing work in homenet
(which I happen to think is excellent).

> Charter revisions are
> needed based on the comments just heard. Just agreeing on common
> terminology and a problem statement will be a fair bit of work.
>=20
> Slightly further down, as well as asking about the procedural way
> forward, Michael Richardson said that this discussion could lead to a
> common understanding of who owns what device. Brian agreed on the
> importance of that issue. Michael said to focus efforts there, and drop=

> other issues. He used the term "certificate" in describing the work to
> be done.

Absolutely. In fact a cryptographic device identity mechanism is pretty
much essential; otherwise an AN system is open to attack.

> Some time after Elliot Lear spoke my notes have Ran Atkinson saying
> there are too many use cases.=20

Agreed, as the draft charter shows.

> Anima/UCAN needs 3-4-6 months of work on
> requirements, with a lot more focus. I think that corresponds to the
> bullet under "Chair Questions" following "IT/OT convergence".

Opinions may vary about whether a formal requirements analysis is
needed (beyond what is already in the NMRG gap analysis draft),
but that's part of the charter debate.

> Michael Behringer did a final summation which included an action item t=
o
> resolve any issues with Homenet.

Yes. I'm hoping the above explanation helps with that. We also had
the relationships with I2RS and netconf-zerotouch to resolve.
I2RS is (IMHO) part of the landscape we have to co-exist with.
Netconf-zerotouch might be viewed as an alternative to
draft=C2=AD-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures in some scenarios
(but that should be OK, alternative solutions are not forbidden).

  Brian

>=20
> Tom Taylor
>=20


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Hi Brian,

Yes, I think this needs to be explicit, and the proposed rephrasing is fine.

To clear out some possible misunderstandings, the issue is not to aim 
for perfect autonomic mechanisms, but to capture that there are 
different autonomic properties (and levels) and to clearly state which 
of those will be covered by the work in ANIMA in a first phase (with 
potential for more in the future if success/support/interest).

My current understanding is that ANIMA is looking to solve initial 
configuration and secure bootstrapping problems and to make them 
automatic/autonomic.
This is fine - but - this is not touching at the self-healing, 
self-optimizing, learning... properties of an autonomic system.

If, rightfully, we aim to set the scope of ANIMA to "only" the 
(self-)configuration aspect, again this is fine, but should be made 
explicit in the charter, and we should check if there is enough support 
in the community to work on this single aspect.

Laurent.

On 08/08/2014 22:01, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Laurent,
>
> I think we already discussed the point that our aim is not to
> aim for something like mathematical perfection where every autonomic
> device meets every criterion for autonomic behaviour. Maybe this needs
> to be explicit in the charter? In any case I would slightly rewrite
> the first paragraph:
>
> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network
> elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and co-existence
> with non-autonomic methods of management. Elements of autonomic functions
> already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF.
> However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging
> and security mechanisms as well as non-autonomic management interfaces.
>
>      Brian
>
> On 09/08/2014 02:05, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> During some exchanges on ANIMA, a colleague of mine pointed out the
>> following:
>> Quoting (with slight modifications):
>>
>>     "Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>     protocols such as OSPF."
>>
>>     -This statement is discussable: I would have said OSPF is adaptive
>>     (from the current state only --not previous states- and by means of
>>     OSPF PDU's only) but certainly not autonomous (in the sense: it
>>     can't by itself tune its parameter space, in particular to operate
>>     in its current form OSPF requires that all parameters are identical
>>     in a given area).
>>
>>     -Might be worth rephrasing "Limited versions of autonomic
>>     functions..." or
>>     "Partially autonomic functions..."
>>
>> End of quote.
>>
>> The overall argument being if the starting point of ANIMA (or conclusion
>> from NMRG) is the statement that the routing system (one of the most
>> prominent function) is already autonomic, then it might cut short
>> several areas of work.
>>
>> Thanks, Laurent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/08/2014 10:19, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
>>> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
>>> discussion only so far.
>>>
>>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>>
>>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand
>>> after re-chartering.
>>>
>>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>>
>>> Description of Working Group
>>>
>>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
>>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>>
>>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
>>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
>>> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
>>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
>>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use
>>> cases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a
>>> baseline for this working group.
>>>
>>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
>>> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
>>> architecture and design goals defined in
>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Future work may include
>>> a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of
>>> autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initially focus
>>> on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>>
>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>> o identity of nodes
>>> o common security model
>>> o discovery model
>>> o negotiation model
>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
>>> o an example for an autonomic management model
>>>
>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>
>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>> autonomic functions
>>>      Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>      Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>      Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>
>>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>>
>>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>>     Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>>
>>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
>>> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
>>> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
>>> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
>>> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
>>> without re-chartering.
>>>
>>> Milestones
>>>
>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>>              - Mar IETF -
>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>>              - Jul IETF -
>>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
>>> (standards track)
>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>>              - Nov IETF -
>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
>>> (standards track)
>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>>> Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>>              - Mar IETF -
>>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>>> (standards track)
>>> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Hi Brian,<br>
      <br>
      Yes, I think this needs to be explicit, and the proposed
      rephrasing is fine.<br>
      <br>
      To clear out some possible misunderstandings, the issue is not to
      aim for perfect autonomic mechanisms, but to capture that there
      are different autonomic properties (and levels) and to clearly
      state which of those will be covered by the work in ANIMA in a
      first phase (with potential for more in the future if
      success/support/interest).<br>
      <br>
      My current understanding is that ANIMA is looking to solve initial
      configuration and secure bootstrapping problems and to make them
      automatic/autonomic.<br>
      This is fine - but - this is not touching at the self-healing,
      self-optimizing, learning... properties of an autonomic system.<br>
      <br>
      If, rightfully, we aim to set the scope of ANIMA to "only" the
      (self-)configuration aspect, again this is fine, but should be
      made explicit in the charter, and we should check if there is
      enough support in the community to work on this single aspect.<br>
      <br>
      Laurent.<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/08/2014 22:01, Brian E Carpenter
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:53E52CA8.80702@gmail.com" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Laurent,

I think we already discussed the point that our aim is not to
aim for something like mathematical perfection where every autonomic
device meets every criterion for autonomic behaviour. Maybe this needs
to be explicit in the charter? In any case I would slightly rewrite
the first paragraph:

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network
elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and co-existence
with non-autonomic methods of management. Elements of autonomic functions
already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF.
However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging
and security mechanisms as well as non-autonomic management interfaces.

    Brian

On 09/08/2014 02:05, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Dear all,

During some exchanges on ANIMA, a colleague of mine pointed out the
following:
Quoting (with slight modifications):

   "Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
   protocols such as OSPF."

   -This statement is discussable: I would have said OSPF is adaptive
   (from the current state only --not previous states- and by means of
   OSPF PDU's only) but certainly not autonomous (in the sense: it
   can't by itself tune its parameter space, in particular to operate
   in its current form OSPF requires that all parameters are identical
   in a given area).

   -Might be worth rephrasing "Limited versions of autonomic
   functions..." or
   "Partially autonomic functions..."

End of quote.

The overall argument being if the starting point of ANIMA (or conclusion
from NMRG) is the statement that the routing system (one of the most
prominent function) is already autonomic, then it might cut short
several areas of work.

Thanks, Laurent.




On 05/08/2014 10:19, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
discussion only so far.

The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.

If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand
after re-chartering.

Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.

Thanks,
Michael


Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG

Description of Working Group

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.

To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
the gap analysis for AN is described in
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use
cases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a
baseline for this working group.

This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
architecture and design goals defined in
draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Future work may include
a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of
autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initially focus
on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.

The solutions target to cover the following areas:
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o an example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
autonomic functions
    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
simple example as a test case for further work.

o Definition of &lt;a selected use case by the group&gt;
   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
without re-chartering.

Milestones

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
            - Mar IETF -
Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
            - Jul IETF -
Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
(standards track)
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
            - Nov IETF -
Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG 
(standards track)
Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
            - Mar IETF -
Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG 
(standards track)
Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close

-- 

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>


</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">

------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
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</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] About OSPF // ANIMA draft charter
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Sheng,

OSPF has a certain level of self-healing (i.e. ensure a routable 
topology in case of failure), however, OSPF is not capable of adapting 
its parameters to different contexts.
A lot can be done to augment/enhance the routing protocols with more 
autonomic properties. This as the point made below.

Beyond that, I agree with you that the initial configuration can also be 
improved (and generalized to other protocols), i.e. the goal of the 
discovery and negotiation draft.

Regards, Laurent.


On 09/08/2014 01:46, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> The running of OSPF is autonomic. But the initial configuration process of OSPF is not autonomic, yet. This should be clearly distinguished in the example description. Maybe, we could modified the text to be more precise:
>
> "Elements of autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF (although the initial configuration process of OSPF is not autonomic, yet.)"
>
> Regards,
>
> Sheng
> ________________________________________
> From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian E Carpenter [brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> Sent: 09 August 2014 4:01
> To: Laurent Ciavaglia
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] About OSPF // ANIMA draft charter
>
> Laurent,
>
> I think we already discussed the point that our aim is not to
> aim for something like mathematical perfection where every autonomic
> device meets every criterion for autonomic behaviour. Maybe this needs
> to be explicit in the charter? In any case I would slightly rewrite
> the first paragraph:
>
> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network
> elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and co-existence
> with non-autonomic methods of management. Elements of autonomic functions
> already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF.
> However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging
> and security mechanisms as well as non-autonomic management interfaces.
>
>      Brian
>
> On 09/08/2014 02:05, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> During some exchanges on ANIMA, a colleague of mine pointed out the
>> following:
>> Quoting (with slight modifications):
>>
>>     "Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>     protocols such as OSPF."
>>
>>     -This statement is discussable: I would have said OSPF is adaptive
>>     (from the current state only --not previous states- and by means of
>>     OSPF PDU's only) but certainly not autonomous (in the sense: it
>>     can't by itself tune its parameter space, in particular to operate
>>     in its current form OSPF requires that all parameters are identical
>>     in a given area).
>>
>>     -Might be worth rephrasing "Limited versions of autonomic
>>     functions..." or
>>     "Partially autonomic functions..."
>>
>> End of quote.
>>
>> The overall argument being if the starting point of ANIMA (or conclusion
>> from NMRG) is the statement that the routing system (one of the most
>> prominent function) is already autonomic, then it might cut short
>> several areas of work.
>>
>> Thanks, Laurent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/08/2014 10:19, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
>>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
>>> have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
>>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
>>> discussion only so far.
>>>
>>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
>>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>>
>>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
>>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
>>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand
>>> after re-chartering.
>>>
>>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>>
>>> Description of Working Group
>>>
>>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
>>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
>>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
>>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>>
>>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
>>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
>>> Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
>>> terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
>>> The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
>>> model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
>>> the gap analysis for AN is described in
>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use
>>> cases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a
>>> baseline for this working group.
>>>
>>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
>>> of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
>>> architecture and design goals defined in
>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Future work may include
>>> a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of
>>> autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initially focus
>>> on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>>>
>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>> o identity of nodes
>>> o common security model
>>> o discovery model
>>> o negotiation model
>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
>>> o an example for an autonomic management model
>>>
>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>
>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>> autonomic functions
>>>      Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>      Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>      Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>
>>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
>>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
>>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>>
>>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>>     Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>>
>>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
>>> focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
>>> policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
>>> autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
>>> submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
>>> now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
>>> without re-chartering.
>>>
>>> Milestones
>>>
>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>>              - Mar IETF -
>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>>              - Jul IETF -
>>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
>>> (standards track)
>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>>              - Nov IETF -
>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
>>> (standards track)
>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
>>> Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>>              - Mar IETF -
>>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
>>> (standards track)
>>> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Sheng,<br>
      <br>
      OSPF has a certain level of self-healing (i.e. ensure a routable
      topology in case of failure), however, OSPF is not capable of
      adapting its parameters to different contexts.<br>
      A lot can be done to augment/enhance the routing protocols with
      more autonomic properties. This as the point made below.<br>
      <br>
      Beyond that, I agree with you that the initial configuration can
      also be improved (and generalized to other protocols), i.e. the
      goal of the discovery and negotiation draft.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/08/2014 01:46, Sheng Jiang wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF07466@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">The running of OSPF is autonomic. But the initial configuration process of OSPF is not autonomic, yet. This should be clearly distinguished in the example description. Maybe, we could modified the text to be more precise:

"Elements of autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF (although the initial configuration process of OSPF is not autonomic, yet.)"

Regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: Anima [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] on behalf of Brian E Carpenter [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]
Sent: 09 August 2014 4:01
To: Laurent Ciavaglia
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Anima] About OSPF // ANIMA draft charter

Laurent,

I think we already discussed the point that our aim is not to
aim for something like mathematical perfection where every autonomic
device meets every criterion for autonomic behaviour. Maybe this needs
to be explicit in the charter? In any case I would slightly rewrite
the first paragraph:

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various network
elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and co-existence
with non-autonomic methods of management. Elements of autonomic functions
already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF.
However, all such functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging
and security mechanisms as well as non-autonomic management interfaces.

    Brian

On 09/08/2014 02:05, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Dear all,

During some exchanges on ANIMA, a colleague of mine pointed out the
following:
Quoting (with slight modifications):

   "Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
   protocols such as OSPF."

   -This statement is discussable: I would have said OSPF is adaptive
   (from the current state only --not previous states- and by means of
   OSPF PDU's only) but certainly not autonomous (in the sense: it
   can't by itself tune its parameter space, in particular to operate
   in its current form OSPF requires that all parameters are identical
   in a given area).

   -Might be worth rephrasing "Limited versions of autonomic
   functions..." or
   "Partially autonomic functions..."

End of quote.

The overall argument being if the starting point of ANIMA (or conclusion
from NMRG) is the statement that the routing system (one of the most
prominent function) is already autonomic, then it might cut short
several areas of work.

Thanks, Laurent.




On 05/08/2014 10:19, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work
on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and I
have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our ADs.
Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for
discussion only so far.

The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will
continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.

If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on
realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,
achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, expand
after re-chartering.

Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.

Thanks,
Michael


Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG

Description of Working Group

Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing
protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own
discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.

To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into
concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the
Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define
terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
The definitions and design goals, as well as a simple architecture
model are defined in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions;
the gap analysis for AN is described in
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at IETF 90 discussed use
cases and some existing solutions. All the above work serves as a
baseline for this working group.

This working group defines solutions for an initial set of components
of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the simple
architecture and design goals defined in
draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions. Future work may include
a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of
autonomic service agents. The Anima working group will initially focus
on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.

The solutions target to cover the following areas:
o identity of nodes
o common security model
o discovery model
o negotiation model
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o an example for an autonomic management model

The goals of this working group are:

o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for
autonomic functions
    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for
specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one
simple example as a test case for further work.

o Definition of &lt;a selected use case by the group&gt;
   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
policy intent, other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or
autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
submissions, but are not planned as working group deliverables for
now. No additional work items will be accepted in the working group
without re-chartering.

Milestones

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
            - Mar IETF -
Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
            - Jul IETF -
Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to IESG
(standards track)
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap
Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
            - Nov IETF -
Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG
(standards track)
Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG  (standards track)
Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
            - Mar IETF -
Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG
(standards track)
Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close

--

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>


</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">

------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
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From nobody Tue Aug 12 12:43:32 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
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Hi,

Following sharing by Adrian of the anima proposed charter, I have the follo=
wing comment:

-----Original Message-----
From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)=20
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 12:34 PM
To: 'adrian@olddog.co.uk'; 'routing-discussion@ietf.org'; 'manet@ietf.org';=
 'roll@ietf.org'
Subject: RE: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter

Hi Adrian, all

Thanks for sharing. Reading this charter, the following statement escapes m=
e

"Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols=
 such as OSPF."

I would have said OSPF like any other IGP is adaptive (and from the current=
 state only -not previous states-) but it is not autonomous: the same input=
 leads to the same output (decision), i.e., there is no improvement of qual=
ity of the decision process over time and on the other hand there is no mea=
n by which OSPF can by itself overcome degradation of performance (at best =
mitigate if pre-configured to execute fixed sequences for a sub-set of pre-=
determined conditions, cf.RFC 4222, so again driven by open control loops).

Setting of configurable constants is mainly driven by open control loops. M=
oreover individual routers can't make autonomous decisions in terms of area=
 parameters configuration as all routers belonging to an area must agree on=
 that area's configuration).

Thanks,
-dimitri.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: routing-discussion [mailto:routing-discussion-bounces@ietf.org]=20
> On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:19 AM
> To: routing-discussion@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; roll@ietf.org
> Subject: FW: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>=20
> Please excuse the spam.
>=20
> There is a discussion about forming a working group for autonomic=20
> networking that may be of interest to a number of you.
>=20
> Please continue the discussion on the ANIMA mailing list (i.e., not=20
> here!)
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>=20
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> > Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:19:15 +0000
> > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> > To: anima@ietf.org <anima@ietf.org>
> >
> > At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work=20
> > on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and=20
> > I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our
> ADs.
> > Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for=20
> > discussion only so far.
> >
> > The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will=20
> > continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
> >
> > If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on=20
> > realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small,=20
> > achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful,=20
> > expand after
> re-
> > chartering.
> >
> > Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
> >
> > Description of Working Group
> >
> > Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
> > An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various=20
> > network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
> > Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing=20
> > protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own=20
> > discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
> >
> > To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into=20
> > concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in=20
> > the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to=20
> > define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap ana=
lysis.
> > The definitions and design goals, as well as
> a
> > simple architecture model are defined in=20
> > draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap analysis for=20
> > AN is described in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at=20
> > IETF
> > 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above=20
> > work serves as a baseline for this working group.
> >
> > This working group defines solutions for an initial set of=20
> > components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the=20
> > simple architecture and design goals defined in=20
> > draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic- network-definitions. Future work may=20
> > include a more detailed systems architecture to support the development=
 of autonomic service agents.
> > The Anima working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP=20
> > networks and IoT.
> >
> > The solutions target to cover the following areas:
> > o identity of nodes
> > o common security model
> > o discovery model
> > o negotiation model
> > o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an=20
> > example for an autonomic management model
> >
> > The goals of this working group are:
> >
> > o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for=20
> > autonomic functions
> >    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> > o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
> >    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> > o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
> >    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
> >
> > In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for=20
> > specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one=20
> > simple example as a test case for further work.
> >
> > o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
> >   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
> >
> > The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay=20
> > focused and
> avoid
> > "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy intent,=20
> > other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic=20
> > service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions,=20
> > but are not planned as working group deliverables for now. No=20
> > additional work items will be accepted in the working group without=20
> > re-chartering.
> >
> > Milestones
> >
> > Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
> >            - Mar IETF -
> > Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
> >            - Jul IETF -
> > Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to=20
> > IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC=20
> > draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
> >            - Nov IETF -
> > Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG=20
> > (standards track) Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG=20
> > (standards track) Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
> >            - Mar IETF -
> > Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG=20
> > (standards
> > track)
> > Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> routing-discussion mailing list
> routing-discussion@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/routing-discussion


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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 08:22:20 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] FW:  ANIMA draft charter
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Dimitri,

Yes, that sentence in the charter will be made more accurate. More
generally, it's clear that we are talking about introducing
elements of autonomic behaviour, coexisting with traditional methods.

Regards
   Brian

On 13/08/2014 02:16, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Following sharing by Adrian of the anima proposed charter, I have the following comment:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) 
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 12:34 PM
> To: 'adrian@olddog.co.uk'; 'routing-discussion@ietf.org'; 'manet@ietf.org'; 'roll@ietf.org'
> Subject: RE: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
> 
> Hi Adrian, all
> 
> Thanks for sharing. Reading this charter, the following statement escapes me
> 
> "Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing protocols such as OSPF."
> 
> I would have said OSPF like any other IGP is adaptive (and from the current state only -not previous states-) but it is not autonomous: the same input leads to the same output (decision), i.e., there is no improvement of quality of the decision process over time and on the other hand there is no mean by which OSPF can by itself overcome degradation of performance (at best mitigate if pre-configured to execute fixed sequences for a sub-set of pre-determined conditions, cf.RFC 4222, so again driven by open control loops).
> 
> Setting of configurable constants is mainly driven by open control loops. Moreover individual routers can't make autonomous decisions in terms of area parameters configuration as all routers belonging to an area must agree on that area's configuration).
> 
> Thanks,
> -dimitri.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: routing-discussion [mailto:routing-discussion-bounces@ietf.org] 
>> On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
>> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:19 AM
>> To: routing-discussion@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; roll@ietf.org
>> Subject: FW: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>
>> Please excuse the spam.
>>
>> There is a discussion about forming a working group for autonomic 
>> networking that may be of interest to a number of you.
>>
>> Please continue the discussion on the ANIMA mailing list (i.e., not 
>> here!)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Adrian
>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA draft charter
>>> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:19:15 +0000
>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
>>> To: anima@ietf.org <anima@ietf.org>
>>>
>>> At the BoF in Toronto there was rough consensus to continue the work 
>>> on an autonomic infrastructure. Brian, Sheng, Toerless, Laurent and 
>>> I have now drafted a potential WG charter with the input of our
>> ADs.
>>> Note that this is not yet a formal charter proposal, it's for 
>>> discussion only so far.
>>>
>>> The assumption is that more general aspects of autonomics will 
>>> continue to be discussed in the NMRG group.
>>>
>>> If we were to go ahead with a WG, the goal would be to focus on 
>>> realistic deliverables. So the plan is to start with a small, 
>>> achievable set of deliverables, and, if successful and useful, 
>>> expand after
>> re-
>>> chartering.
>>>
>>> Please comment here on this draft charter proposal.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) WG
>>>
>>> Description of Working Group
>>>
>>> Autonomic Networking focuses on self-management of network elements.
>>> An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various 
>>> network elements, allowing however central guidance and reporting.
>>> Autonomic functions already exist today, for example IGP routing 
>>> protocols such as OSPF. However, all such functions have their own 
>>> discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms.
>>>
>>> To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into 
>>> concrete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in 
>>> the Network Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to 
>>> define terminology and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis.
>>> The definitions and design goals, as well as
>> a
>>> simple architecture model are defined in 
>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions; the gap analysis for 
>>> AN is described in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis. The UCAN BoF at 
>>> IETF
>>> 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the above 
>>> work serves as a baseline for this working group.
>>>
>>> This working group defines solutions for an initial set of 
>>> components of an autonomic networking infrastructure, based on the 
>>> simple architecture and design goals defined in 
>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic- network-definitions. Future work may 
>>> include a more detailed systems architecture to support the development of autonomic service agents.
>>> The Anima working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP 
>>> networks and IoT.
>>>
>>> The solutions target to cover the following areas:
>>> o identity of nodes
>>> o common security model
>>> o discovery model
>>> o negotiation model
>>> o a secure and logically separated communications channel o an 
>>> example for an autonomic management model
>>>
>>> The goals of this working group are:
>>>
>>> o Definition of a generic discovery and negotiation protocol for 
>>> autonomic functions
>>>    Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>>> o Definition of a mechanism to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>>    Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>>> o Definition of an logically separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>>    Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>>
>>> In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined for 
>>> specific use cases. The working group will initially consider one 
>>> simple example as a test case for further work.
>>>
>>> o Definition of <a selected use case by the group>
>>>   Starting point: draft-use-case-tbd
>>>
>>> The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay 
>>> focused and
>> avoid
>>> "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning policy intent, 
>>> other autonomic infrastructure components, use cases or autonomic 
>>> service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions, 
>>> but are not planned as working group deliverables for now. No 
>>> additional work items will be accepted in the working group without 
>>> re-chartering.
>>>
>>> Milestones
>>>
>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of drafts
>>>            - Mar IETF -
>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol
>>>            - Jul IETF -
>>> Aug 2015 - submit draft-generic-discovery-negotiation-protocol to 
>>> IESG (standards track) Oct 2015 - WGLC 
>>> draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-tbd
>>>            - Nov IETF -
>>> Dec 2015 - submit draft-keyinfrastructure-bootstrap to IESG 
>>> (standards track) Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-tbd to IESG 
>>> (standards track) Jan 2016 - WGLC draft-autonomic-common-control-plane
>>>            - Mar IETF -
>>> Apr 2016 - submit draft-autonomic-common-control-plane to IESG 
>>> (standards
>>> track)
>>> Jul 2016 - recharter if needed, or close 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>> _______________________________________________
>> routing-discussion mailing list
>> routing-discussion@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/routing-discussion
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:09:34 +1200
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Subject: [Anima] [Fwd: I-D Action: draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements-04.txt]
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This may be of interest as background for autonomics.

   Brian

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements-04.txt
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 00:19:38 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : Requirements for Automated (Configuration) Management
        Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
                          Christian Jacquenet
                          Luis M. Contreras
	Filename        : draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements-04.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2014-08-12

Abstract:
   Given the ever-increasing complexity of the configuration tasks
   required for the dynamic provisioning of IP networks and services,
   this document aims at listing the requirements for an automated
   configuration management framework.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
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Here is a version of the draft charter with recent comments
incorporated.

This and a draft action list will be the main points of
the Webex session coming up on Thursday.
(I've re-attached the calendar info in case you missed it.
Michael - can you send a plain text version?)

Regards
   Brian

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From nobody Tue Aug 12 18:38:54 2014
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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 13:38:53 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Anima] Draft action list
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Laurent said he would make some slides for the Webex, but
for now, here's a draft action list. We should also settle
the call schedule; I suggest alternating between two times
to cover the times zones more fairly.

2014-08-15 Draft #6 WG charter to anima list
2014-08-25 Next version of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions
2014-08-25 Next version of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis
2014-08-31 Stable draft WG charter sent to AD
2014-09-19 (latest) Submit WG/BOF meeting request for IETF91
2014-09-26 Deadline for IETF91 scheduling requests
2014-10-01 Submit draft-author-anima-*-00 versions of 4 WG I-Ds
2014-10-27 Draft WG/BOF agenda due; I-D cutoff

   Brian


From nobody Tue Aug 12 19:32:57 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Anima charter draft 5
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From nobody Tue Aug 12 20:37:17 2014
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Message-ID: <53EADD68.5000303@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 15:37:12 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Anima charter draft 5
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Hi Sheng,

Right, we intended to make it clear that the ACP is a use case
I think. OK, we can change that for the next version.

    Brian


On 13/08/2014 14:32, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
> 
> Thanks for the update version. A couple of comments from me:
> 
> The version 5 is still sticking with one use case while we agreed for two. The word "use case" has already caused confusion. It is better to replace by "solution for two selected use cases", "draft-use-case1-solution-tbd", and "draft-use-case2-solution-tbd". 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Sheng
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
>> Carpenter
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:33 AM
>> To: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Anima] Anima charter draft 5
>>
>> Here is a version of the draft charter with recent comments
>> incorporated.
>>
>> This and a draft action list will be the main points of
>> the Webex session coming up on Thursday.
>> (I've re-attached the calendar info in case you missed it.
>> Michael - can you send a plain text version?)
>>
>> Regards
>>   Brian


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--------------090909010109050900040602
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	boundary="------------000001020905080200000805"

--------------000001020905080200000805
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Dear all,

Please find attached support slides (.ppt and .pdf) for our upcoming 
call (14-08-2014 6am GMT).

The meeting details are listed below. In case of problems, please 
contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Sheng and myself).


Title:

	

ANIMA - Next Steps

Location:

	

webex

When:

	

Occurs every Thursday effective 14/08/2014 for 5 times from 08:00 to 09:00.

Organizer:

	

	Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>

Description:

	


ANIMA participants, This meeting is to discuss the draft agenda that was 
circulated on the list, and to define a clear direction. An agenda will 
be communicated separately each week. The meeting will be recorded, and 
as all other IETF side meetings is subject to the "note well" statement. 
Michael ******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE 
******* 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

*JOIN USING WebEx Go To: 
**https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=mc1a4d377cf0d5f134189c71e1a0f2114****
**Meeting Password ----- anima **
**Meeting Number ----- 201 974 466 *

----------------------------------------------------------------
ALERT -- PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITHIN THE 
(408) OR (919) AREA CODES
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below: - 
San Jose/Milpitas (408) area: 525-6800 - RTP (919) area: 392-3330 
Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes is 
not enabled (non-Cisco phones). " If you dial the toll-free numbers 
within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up and 
dial the local access number." Please use the call-back option whenever 
possible and otherwise dial local numbers only. The affected toll free 
numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 
349-3520 for the RTP area. 
-------------------------------------------------------
To join the teleconference only 
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at 
http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html 2. 
Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Access 
Code followed by the # sign. San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800 RTP: 
+1.919.392.3330 US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903 United Kingdom: 
+44.20.8824.0117 India: +91.80.4350.1111 Germany: +49.619.6773.9002 
Japan: +81.3.5763.9394 China: +86.10.8515.5666 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This 
WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio and any documents and 
other materials exchanged or viewed during the session to be recorded. 
By joining this session, you automatically consent to such recordings. 
If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the 
meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join the 
session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to 
discovery in the event of litigation. http://www.webex.com

Attendees:

	

	Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com) 
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>

	Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>

	Toerless Eckert (eckert) <eckert@cisco.com>

	joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>

	Benoit Claise (bclaise) <bclaise@cisco.com>

	Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

	anima@ietf.org <anima@ietf.org>



-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


--------------000001020905080200000805
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  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#333333">
    <font face="Courier New">Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      Please find attached support slides (.ppt and .pdf) for our
      upcoming call (14-08-2014 6am GMT).<br>
      <br>
      The meeting details are listed below. In case of problems, please
      contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Sheng and myself).<br>
      <br>
    </font><br>
    <table id="invitation-table">
      <tbody>
        <tr id="imipHtml-summary-row">
          <td class="description">
            <p id="imipHtml-summary-descr">Title:</p>
          </td>
          <td class="content">
            <p id="imipHtml-summary-content">ANIMA - Next Steps</p>
          </td>
        </tr>
        <tr id="imipHtml-location-row">
          <td class="description">
            <p id="imipHtml-location-descr">Location:</p>
          </td>
          <td class="content">
            <p id="imipHtml-location-content">webex</p>
          </td>
        </tr>
        <tr id="imipHtml-when-row">
          <td class="description">
            <p id="imipHtml-when-descr">When:</p>
          </td>
          <td class="content">
            <p id="imipHtml-when-content">Occurs every Thursday
              effective 14/08/2014 for 5 times
              from 08:00 to 09:00.</p>
          </td>
        </tr>
        <tr id="imipHtml-organizer-row">
          <td class="description">
            <p id="imipHtml-organizer-descr">Organizer:</p>
          </td>
          <td class="content">
            <table id="organizer-table">
              <tbody>
                <tr>
                  <td><br>
                  </td>
                  <td class="attendee-name">Michael Behringer (mbehring)
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a></td>
                </tr>
              </tbody>
            </table>
          </td>
        </tr>
        <tr id="imipHtml-description-row">
          <td class="description">
            <p id="imipHtml-description-descr">Description:</p>
          </td>
          <td class="content">
            <p id="imipHtml-description-content"><br>
              ANIMA participants,
              This meeting is to discuss the draft agenda that was
              circulated on the list, and to define a clear direction.
              An agenda will be communicated separately each week.
              The meeting will be recorded, and as all other IETF side
              meetings is subject to the &#8220;note well&#8221; statement.
              Michael
              ******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS
              LINE *******
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
              <br>
            </p>
            <p><b>JOIN USING WebEx
                Go To:
              </b><b><a xmlns=""
href="https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=mc1a4d377cf0d5f134189c71e1a0f2114">https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=mc1a4d377cf0d5f134189c71e1a0f2114</a></b><b>
              </b><b><br>
              </b><b>
                Meeting Password ----- anima
              </b><b><br>
              </b><b>Meeting Number ----- 201 974 466
              </b><br>
            </p>
            <p>----------------------------------------------------------------
              <br>
              ALERT &#8211; PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS
              FROM WITHIN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES
              <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------
              <br>
              Please dial the local access number for your area from the
              list below:
              - San Jose/Milpitas (408) area: 525-6800
              - RTP (919) area: 392-3330
              Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919
              area codes is not enabled (non-Cisco phones). &#8220; If you
              dial the toll-free numbers within the 408 or 919 area
              codes you will be instructed to hang up and dial the local
              access number.&#8221; Please use the call-back option whenever
              possible and otherwise dial local numbers only. The
              affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San
              Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.
              -------------------------------------------------------
              <br>
              To join the teleconference only
              -------------------------------------------------------
              <br>
              1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers
              at
              <a xmlns=""
href="http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html">http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html</a>
              2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed
              above) or Access Code followed by the # sign.
              San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800 RTP: +1.919.392.3330
              US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903 United Kingdom:
              +44.20.8824.0117
              India: +91.80.4350.1111 Germany: +49.619.6773.9002
              Japan: +81.3.5763.9394 China: +86.10.8515.5666
              IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature
              that allows audio and any documents and other materials
              exchanged or viewed during the session to be recorded. By
              joining this session, you automatically consent to such
              recordings. If you do not consent to the recording,
              discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the
              start of the recording or do not join the session. Please
              note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery
              in the event of litigation.
              <a xmlns="" href="http://www.webex.com">http://www.webex.com</a><br>
              <br>
            </p>
          </td>
        </tr>
        <tr id="imipHtml-attendees-row">
          <td class="description">
            <p id="imipHtml-attendees-descr">Attendees:</p>
          </td>
          <td class="content">
            <table id="attendee-table">
              <tbody>
                <tr>
                  <td><br>
                  </td>
                  <td class="attendee-name">Brian E Carpenter
                    (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>)
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">&lt;brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt;</a></td>
                </tr>
                <tr>
                  <td><br>
                  </td>
                  <td class="attendee-name">Sheng Jiang
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">&lt;jiangsheng@huawei.com&gt;</a></td>
                </tr>
                <tr>
                  <td><br>
                  </td>
                  <td class="attendee-name">Toerless Eckert (eckert)
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eckert@cisco.com">&lt;eckert@cisco.com&gt;</a></td>
                </tr>
                <tr>
                  <td><br>
                  </td>
                  <td class="attendee-name">joel jaeggli
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:joelja@bogus.com">&lt;joelja@bogus.com&gt;</a></td>
                </tr>
                <tr>
                  <td><br>
                  </td>
                  <td class="attendee-name">Benoit Claise (bclaise)
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a></td>
                </tr>
                <tr>
                  <td><br>
                  </td>
                  <td class="attendee-name">Laurent Ciavaglia
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com">&lt;Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;</a></td>
                </tr>
                <tr>
                  <td><br>
                  </td>
                  <td class="attendee-name"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">&lt;anima@ietf.org&gt;</a></td>
                </tr>
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            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span class="GramE"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
              &quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
              lang="EN-GB">phone</span></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">: +33&nbsp;160
            402&nbsp;636 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span class="GramE"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
              &quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
              lang="EN-GB">email</span></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">: </span><span
            lang="EN-GB"><a
              href="mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7030A0">laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com</span></a></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
            color:#7030A0" lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span class="SpellE"><span class="GramE"><span
                style="font-size:
                10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">linkedin</span></span></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">: </span><span
            lang="EN-GB"><a
              href="http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/"><span
                class="SpellE"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                  MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                  color:#7030A0">laurentciavaglia</span></span></a></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7030A0" lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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          normal"><span class="GramE"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
              &quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
              lang="EN-GB">address</span></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">: Route de <span
              class="SpellE">Villejust</span> | 91620 NOZAY | France<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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From nobody Wed Aug 13 13:19:40 2014
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:19:41 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Anima] Just In Time Wiki
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Anima has a provisional wiki:

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/WikiStart

We'll try to keep it up to date with the draft charter
and meeting details, etc.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter


From nobody Wed Aug 13 22:38:35 2014
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Anima charter draft 5
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And, the bootstrap draft can also be seen as a use case. There are operator=
 requirements that lead to exactly this use case. We can also spell this ou=
t.=20

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> Carpenter
> Sent: 13 August 2014 05:37
> To: Sheng Jiang
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Anima charter draft 5
>=20
> Hi Sheng,
>=20
> Right, we intended to make it clear that the ACP is a use case I think. O=
K, we
> can change that for the next version.
>=20
>     Brian
>=20
>=20
> On 13/08/2014 14:32, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> > Hi, Brian,
> >
> > Thanks for the update version. A couple of comments from me:
> >
> > The version 5 is still sticking with one use case while we agreed for t=
wo.
> The word "use case" has already caused confusion. It is better to replace=
 by
> "solution for two selected use cases", "draft-use-case1-solution-tbd", an=
d
> "draft-use-case2-solution-tbd".
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Sheng
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> >> Carpenter
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:33 AM
> >> To: anima@ietf.org
> >> Subject: [Anima] Anima charter draft 5
> >>
> >> Here is a version of the draft charter with recent comments
> >> incorporated.
> >>
> >> This and a draft action list will be the main points of the Webex
> >> session coming up on Thursday.
> >> (I've re-attached the calendar info in case you missed it.
> >> Michael - can you send a plain text version?)
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>   Brian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Aug 15 18:36:28 2014
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Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 13:36:34 +1200
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Subject: [Anima] UCAN BOF minutes updated - last call
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This is a last call for comments on the accuracy of the
BOF minutes. Please send any more comments within a week.

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/minutes/minutes-90-ucan

Regards
   Brian Carpenter


From nobody Sat Aug 16 16:48:41 2014
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Subscribe me to the mailing list.
Thanks
Mehmet Toy

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From nobody Mon Aug 18 16:48:00 2014
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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 11:47:56 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Subject: [Anima] Anima draft charter v6...
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... is attached for careful reading and further comments.
It's also in the anima wiki:
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/WikiStart

Regards
   Brian Carpenter




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From: "Fuyu (Eleven)" <eleven.fuyu@huawei.com>
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From nobody Tue Aug 19 21:07:40 2014
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Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 16:07:37 +1200
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Anima draft charter v6...
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Hello Yu,

On 20/08/2014 15:51, Fuyu (Eleven) wrote:
> Hi Brian, 
>   The version 6 of the charter looks good. I have one comment:
> 
> o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>   Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
> And in Milestones:
> Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-solution-tbd1&2
> 
> What is the relationship between" draft-use-case-tbd1&2" and "draft-solution-tbd1&2"?
> If they are the same draft, I think it is better to use " draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2".

Good point. If we manage to choose the use cases before the charter is
final, this will be easy to clarify. At the moment, please consider
as a drafting mistake.

(BTW, please comment on my message at
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00119.html )

    Brian

> Cheers 
> Yu
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 7:48 AM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Anima draft charter v6...
> 
> ... is attached for careful reading and further comments.
> It's also in the anima wiki:
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/WikiStart
> 
> Regards
>    Brian Carpenter
> 
> 
> 


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ANIMA team: Here is the webex for the call tomorrow. Sheng will send out th=
e agenda.

Reminder: This is an IETF meeting, and the "note well" applies here as well=
. The meeting will be recorded.

Michael
******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
JOIN USING WebEx

Go To:
https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dmbc8197f19ca87e188714de1fba3c9d3=
f

Meeting Password ----- anima
Meeting Number ----- 207 124 020

----------------------------------------------------------------
ALERT - PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITHIN THE (408=
) OR (919) AREA CODES
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:
-  San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:  525-6800
-  RTP (919) area:  392-3330

Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes is no=
t enabled (non-Cisco phones).  " If you dial the toll-free numbers within t=
he 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up and dial the loc=
al access number." Please use the call-back option whenever possible and ot=
herwise dial local numbers only.  The affected toll free numbers are: (866)=
 432-9903 for the San Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP are=
a.

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the teleconference only
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html
2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Access =
Code followed by the # sign.

San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800  RTP: +1.919.392.3330

US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903  United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117

India: +91.80.4350.1111  Germany: +49.619.6773.9002

Japan: +81.3.5763.9394  China: +86.10.8515.5666

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio a=
nd any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session=
 to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such=
 recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns =
with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join th=
e session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery=
 in the event of litigation.

http://www.webex.com



--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C1E337xmbrcdx14ciscoc_
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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Exchange Server">
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<body>
<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div>ANIMA team: Here is the webex for the call tomorrow. Sheng will send o=
ut the agenda. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Reminder: This is an IETF meeting, and the &#8220;note well&#8221; app=
lies here as well. The meeting will be recorded. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Michael</div>
<div>*<a name=3D"WBX8D3B6"></a>****** DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TE=
XT BELOW THIS LINE *******</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-</div>
<div>JOIN USING WebEx</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Go To:</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dmbc8197f19ca87e1=
88714de1fba3c9d3f"><font color=3D"blue"><u>https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.=
php?MTID=3Dmbc8197f19ca87e188714de1fba3c9d3f</u></font></a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Meeting Password ----- anima</div>
<div>Meeting Number ----- 207 124 020</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>ALERT &#8211; PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITH=
IN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:=
</div>
<div>-&nbsp; San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:&nbsp; 525-6800</div>
<div>-&nbsp; RTP (919) area:&nbsp; 392-3330</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes =
is not enabled (non-Cisco phones).&nbsp; &#8220; If you dial the toll-free =
numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up =
and dial the local access number.&#8221; Please use
the call-back option whenever possible and otherwise dial local numbers onl=
y.&nbsp; The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jos=
e/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>To join the teleconference only </div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at </div>
<div><a href=3D"http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/in=
dex.html"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_busine=
ss/conferencing/index.html</u></font></a> </div>
<div>2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Ac=
cess Code followed by the # sign. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>San Jose, CA: &#43;1.408.525.6800&nbsp; RTP: &#43;1.919.392.3330 </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>US/Canada: &#43;1.866.432.9903&nbsp; United Kingdom: &#43;44.20.8824.0=
117 </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>India: &#43;91.80.4350.1111&nbsp; Germany: &#43;49.619.6773.9002 </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Japan: &#43;81.3.5763.9394&nbsp; China: &#43;86.10.8515.5666</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows au=
dio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the se=
ssion to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to=
 such recordings. If you do not
consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior=
 to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that=
 any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation=
.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://www.webex.com"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://www.we=
bex.com</u></font></a> </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C1E337xmbrcdx14ciscoc_
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Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:53:23 +0200
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Dear all,

the minutes of our first weekly call have been posted on the wiki:
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/attachment/wiki/PrepMeetings/ANIMA%20weekly%20call%201%20-%20minutes.txt

and are attached to this message for your convenience.

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Research Manager | Project Manager

Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    the minutes of our first weekly call have been posted on the wiki:<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/attachment/wiki/PrepMeetings/ANIMA%20weekly%20call%201%20-%20minutes.txt">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/attachment/wiki/PrepMeetings/ANIMA%20weekly%20call%201%20-%20minutes.txt</a><br>
    <br>
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    <br>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
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            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
            mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-GB">Bien
            <span class="SpellE">cordialement</span>,
            Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
            mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
              MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">Laurent
              Ciavaglia<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">Research
            Manager | Project Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">Network
            Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span class="GramE"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
              &quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
              lang="EN-GB">phone</span></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">: +33&nbsp;160
            402&nbsp;636 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span class="GramE"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
              &quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
              lang="EN-GB">email</span></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">: </span><span
            lang="EN-GB"><a
              href="mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7030A0">laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com</span></a></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
            color:#7030A0" lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span class="SpellE"><span class="GramE"><span
                style="font-size:
                10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">linkedin</span></span></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">: </span><span
            lang="EN-GB"><a
              href="http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/"><span
                class="SpellE"><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                  MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                  color:#7030A0">laurentciavaglia</span></span></a></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7030A0" lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
          normal"><span class="GramE"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
              &quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
              lang="EN-GB">address</span></span><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang="EN-GB">: Route de <span
              class="SpellE">Villejust</span> | 91620 NOZAY | France<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

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---
ANIMA weekly call #1 / 2014-08-14 0600 UTC.

Meeting recording available at: https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=8830611e23c8407198d69066c081f024

***Participants: Toerless Eckert, Brian Carpenter, Pascal Thubert, Roberta Maglione, Sheng Jiang, Yves Hertoghs, Bing Liu, Laurent Ciavaglia.

***Intro (Brian): wiki available for ANIMA: http://tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/

***Comments on the charter:
Brian: Laurent, you have made comments on the list...
Laurent: recap of comments fetched from mailing list
    .clarify WG use cases status: solutions drafts for standard track. (cf Roberta's email).
    .update number of WG solution drafts up to 3 (negotiation, bootstrap, acp)(?)
    Brian: is ACP a use case?
    Laurent: ACP can include all functions or either re-focus the document on a single fucntion e.g. OAM fucntion. ACP draft could become the general applicability use case for the WG.
    Toerless: discussed about split of the ACP document.
[Pascal: will the call will be recorded? (Brian: yes).]
    Laurent: two things discussed: number of WG applicability/solution drafts and whether ACP is one solution function/component or a synthesis of multiple functions (i.e. a complete control plane). Ok to send text on solution/applicability draft vs. use case description draft.
Toerless/Brian: issue on number of IDs is different from types of drafts.
Sheng: OPS ADs want us to work directly on the solutions.
Brian: Correct. ADs not interested in requirements work.
Toerless: if focus on solutions, how to describe what cases they apply to? described in the document themselves. individual solutions may not address all aspects.
Brian: ... (sorry did not get it).
Pascal: same problem faced in (?). we called a document "architecture", collected the different pieces and keep it up to date.
Toerless: understand correctly, want to have a work in progress architecture in ANIMA?
Pascal: used as a moving consensus.
Sheng: very clear from the OPS ADs don't want to work on architecture, because too long.
Pascal: consensus on how things work together. here are the building blocks and how they work together.
Brian: I have a model in my head (relationship among solution documents?). these matters will be part of the 3 initial documents.
Toerless: avoid the term architecture. agree with Pascal, how things work together. scope of this document? not used to argue for more work (i.e. the right way is to accept more solution components added) and then describe in the "architecture" how they work together with existing ones.
Laurent: this document could be the autonomic control plane document (putting everything together). this avoids calling it "architecture".
Toerless: important to work on the individual block solutions, but some gaps and point in the "arch" doc. and work will be needed on it.
Brian: Sheng, additional comments?
Sheng: how we choose the use case document.
Brian: this will have to wait for another webex meeting. when progress on charter. find it hard based on comparison with Michael's criteria.
Toerless: point to the email/file? (Laurent: check the link in the meeting slides)
Yves, Roberta: no further comment.
Brian: milestones of the charter. discuss now? quite aggressive timeline.
Laurent: will be more clear once progressed on other points of the charter (sorting out the documents stuff).
Brian: ...(sorry did not get it).
Toerless: solutions drafts, based on reusable components, in combination solving use case problems. how ADs want us to describe the overall system solving the problems? want me to start this discussion with OPS ADs?
Brian: yes.
Brian: action list. priority to update/conclude NMRG documents. ambitious goal to send a stable charter by end of august. still realistic/achievable?
Toerless: if progress on solution documents, explain to OPS ADs and make them happy.
Sheng: need to still working hard targeting the date (31/Aug Stable draft WG charter sent to AD). If job is difficult enough, we could still complete in one more week, leaving flexibility.
Brian: solution cases should be on the action list (?)
Brian: two things might happen at next ietf: ask for WG forming BOF or already running WG.
Toerless: deadline?
Brian: request as early as possible for the WG meetings.
Laurent: preference?
Brian: WG created before would be nice. but not much difference. also why planned for initial individual draft tot feed the WG before ietf91.
Brian: a more realistic...(what?) (sorry did not get it)
Brian: next call schedule, 2pm UTC? to be discussed on the list.
Toerless: ok for 21/08.
Sheng: 9pm for me.
Brian: could be quite early for pacific coast.
Brian: all we can do today. people send their input text.

***Next call scheduled Thursday 21 August 2014 at 1400 UTC. To be agreed on the list.

--------------030407020506070701040105--


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com)" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "'Sheng Jiang'" <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "Laurent Ciavaglia" <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA - Next Steps
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Subject: [Anima] Canceled: ANIMA - Next Steps
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Another meeting has been scheduled for 1400 UTC, same day.

Michael

---

ANIMA participants,

This meeting is to discuss the draft agenda that was circulated on the list=
, and to define a clear direction. An agenda will be communicated separatel=
y each week.

The meeting will be recorded, and as all other IETF side meetings is subjec=
t to the "note well" statement.

Michael
******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
JOIN USING WebEx

Go To:
https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dmc1a4d377cf0d5f134189c71e1a0f211=
4

Meeting Password ----- anima
Meeting Number ----- 201 974 466

----------------------------------------------------------------
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a.

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the teleconference only
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html
2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Access =
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San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800  RTP: +1.919.392.3330

US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903  United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117

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<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div>Another meeting has been scheduled for 1400 UTC, same day. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Michael</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>---</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>ANIMA participants, </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>This meeting is to discuss the draft agenda that was circulated on the=
 list, and to define a clear direction. An agenda will be communicated sepa=
rately each week. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The meeting will be recorded, and as all other IETF side meetings is s=
ubject to the &#8220;note well&#8221; statement. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Michael</div>
<div>******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE ******=
*</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-</div>
<div>JOIN USING WebEx</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Go To:</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dmc1a4d377cf0d5f1=
34189c71e1a0f2114"><font color=3D"blue"><u>https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.=
php?MTID=3Dmc1a4d377cf0d5f134189c71e1a0f2114</u></font></a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Meeting Password ----- anima</div>
<div>Meeting Number ----- 201 974 466</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>ALERT &#8211; PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITH=
IN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:=
</div>
<div>-&nbsp; San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:&nbsp; 525-6800</div>
<div>-&nbsp; RTP (919) area:&nbsp; 392-3330</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes =
is not enabled (non-Cisco phones).&nbsp; &#8220; If you dial the toll-free =
numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up =
and dial the local access number.&#8221; Please use
the call-back option whenever possible and otherwise dial local numbers onl=
y.&nbsp; The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jos=
e/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>To join the teleconference only </div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at </div>
<div><a href=3D"http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/in=
dex.html"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_busine=
ss/conferencing/index.html</u></font></a> </div>
<div>2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Ac=
cess Code followed by the # sign. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>San Jose, CA: &#43;1.408.525.6800&nbsp; RTP: &#43;1.919.392.3330 </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>US/Canada: &#43;1.866.432.9903&nbsp; United Kingdom: &#43;44.20.8824.0=
117 </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>India: &#43;91.80.4350.1111&nbsp; Germany: &#43;49.619.6773.9002 </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Japan: &#43;81.3.5763.9394&nbsp; China: &#43;86.10.8515.5666</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows au=
dio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the se=
ssion to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to=
 such recordings. If you do not
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Subject: Re: [Anima] weekly call #1 - minutes
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Laurent, all,

Many thanks for the minutes and keeping us informed. Reading v06 of the cha=
rter is that the text still gives the impression of avoiding some critical =
aspects directly related to this effort:

1) Which information dissemination model(s) is/are missing preventing self-=
configuration to operate: take OSPF as this group considers it is autonomic=
 (while it isn't, cf. previous post) its mode of information distribution i=
s push-based -> question which case(s) require pulling information to opera=
te with OSPF, which case(s) do not require that all nodes (not only neighbo=
rs) be informed by a flooding of information (would a MT approach be suited=
 instead), etc.

2) The charter refers to "generic discovery/negotiation protocols" though i=
t would be more appropriate to refer to unified protocols (otherwise the go=
al of functions have their own discovery, transport, messaging and security=
 mechanisms could not be achieved), in the solution targeted by the charter=
 we already see the difficult compromise/tradeoffs in between unification a=
nd "security" by isolation ("a secure and logically seperated communication=
s channel" ... why not separate processes/memory segments in that case ?) t=
his coins at one important element is it possible to target only self-confi=
guration without self-protection related aspects.

3) Let's assume such unified protocol can be defined is it expected to run =
across routing partitions or not, administrative partitions or not ? the no=
tion of "guidance" classically known as the objective opens the question of=
 whether or not autonomics aims at modifying the  boundaries of current aut=
onomous systems (it can be at the sub-scale but also the super-scale).
Further, are the head-/tail-end of these interfaces co-resident with the fo=
rwarding/routing engine ("nodes") or not ? could we assume some of the inte=
rfaces would end on entities which are not currently part of the routing sy=
stem ?
=20
4) The charter mentions " Future work may include a more detailed systems a=
rchitecture to support the development of autonomic service agents" and fur=
ther "In addition, autonomic service agents will need to be defined to solv=
e specific use cases." ... a priori contradictory but pointing at one of th=
e most fundamental questions imho: is integration of autonomics going to be=
 "per node and cross-function" or "per-function and cross-nodes" or a combi=
nation.=20

5) As surprising as it looks like, little is said about the input to the au=
tonomic process is it limited to the information protocols currently operat=
e or other sources of information are also in scope (example: feeding 'auto=
matically' routing decision process with traffic monitoring or forwarding m=
onitoring).

Many thanks,
-dimitri.


From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Ciavaglia
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 2:53 PM
To: anima
Subject: [Anima] weekly call #1 - minutes

Dear all,

the minutes of our first weekly call have been posted on the wiki:
=A0=A0=A0 http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/attachment/wiki/PrepMee=
tings/ANIMA%20weekly%20call%201%20-%20minutes.txt

and are attached to this message for your convenience.
--=20

Bien cordialement, Best regards,
=A0
Laurent Ciavaglia
Research Manager | Project Manager
Network Algorithms, Protocols and Security Group
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
=A0
phone: +33=A0160 402=A0636=20
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
linkedin: laurentciavaglia
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 NOZAY | France


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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:08:47 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] weekly call #1 - minutes
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Dimitri,

Some personal opinions follow:

On 21/08/2014 10:34, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Laurent, all,
> 
> Many thanks for the minutes and keeping us informed. Reading
> v06 of the charter is that the text still gives the
> impression of avoiding some critical aspects directly related
> to this effort:
> 
> 1) Which information dissemination model(s) is/are missing
> preventing self-configuration to operate: take OSPF as this
> group considers it is autonomic (while it isn't, cf. previous
> post) 

We've modified that phrase in the draft charter.

> its mode of information distribution is push-based ->
> question which case(s) require pulling information to operate
> with OSPF, which case(s) do not require that all nodes (not
> only neighbors) be informed by a flooding of information
> (would a MT approach be suited instead), etc.

I don't understand why we need a general answer to that. As far
as I personally have an answer, the essential point is indeed
that AN functions require two-way communication to form some
sort of closed loop system, neither push nor pull and certainly
not flooding. Where an AN function interfaces to an existing
function, the details are different for each case and have to be
managed by the AN service agent.

> 
> 2) The charter refers to "generic discovery/negotiation
> protocols" though it would be more appropriate to refer to
> unified protocols (otherwise the goal of functions have their
> own discovery, transport, messaging and security mechanisms
> could not be achieved), 

Each AN service agent will have to solve some subset of the
general problems, won't it? So we can provide a generic toolset
for this. But we must co-exist with everything that already
exists, so I would expect the service agents to mix and match
between legacy and AN tools to achieve their goals.

> in the solution targeted by the
> charter we already see the difficult compromise/tradeoffs in
> between unification and "security" by isolation ("a secure
> and logically seperated communications channel" ... why not
> separate processes/memory segments in that case ?) 

(that would be an implementation choice)

Yes, unification of tools where possible and isolation where
desirable. I don't see a conflict there.

> this coins
> at one important element is it possible to target only
> self-configuration without self-protection related aspects.

They are orthogonal I think. But the AN service agents and
protocols themselves MUST be strongly protected, which is why
cryptographic identity is vital.

> 3) Let's assume such unified protocol can be defined is it
> expected to run across routing partitions or not,

Yes. It may even have to survive NAT.

> administrative partitions or not ? 

I think that's an open question for now. By default, not,
because of the scope of the trust anchor. But I could imagine
scenarios where we might want to cross admin boundaries.

> the notion of "guidance"
> classically known as the objective opens the question of
> whether or not autonomics aims at modifying the  boundaries
> of current autonomous systems (it can be at the sub-scale but
> also the super-scale). 

Do you mean AS in the BGP-4 sense, or something else?

> Further, are the head-/tail-end of
> these interfaces co-resident with the forwarding/routing
> engine ("nodes") or not ? could we assume some of the
> interfaces would end on entities which are not currently part
> of the routing system ?

Definitely. I would expect hosts, firewalls and load balancers
to play, for example. Any device in a SFC environment could play.

> 4) The charter mentions " Future work may include a more
> detailed systems architecture to support the development of
> autonomic service agents" and further "In addition, autonomic
> service agents will need to be defined to solve specific use
> cases." ... a priori contradictory but pointing at one of the
> most fundamental questions imho: is integration of autonomics
> going to be "per node and cross-function" or "per-function
> and cross-nodes" or a combination.

Personally I would say that if a given node (physical or
virtual) deals with N autonomic functions, it will logically
contain N autonomic service agents. However, why should we
exclude cases where different functions are in fact coupled
operationally, so would naturally be managed by the same service
agent? I don't see why we need to answer this question in the
abstract.

> 5) As surprising as it looks like, little is said about the
> input to the autonomic process is it limited to the
> information protocols currently operate or other sources of
> information are also in scope (example: feeding
> 'automatically' routing decision process with traffic
> monitoring or forwarding monitoring).

I don't think there are any limits. The answer will vary from
case to case.

All IMHO,

    Brian
> 
> Many thanks, -dimitri.
> 
> 
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Laurent Ciavaglia Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 2:53 PM 
> To: anima Subject: [Anima] weekly call #1 - minutes
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> the minutes of our first weekly call have been posted on the
> wiki: 
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/attachment/wiki/PrepMeetings/ANIMA%20weekly%20call%201%20-%20minutes.txt
> 
> 
> and are attached to this message for your convenience.


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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] weekly call #1 - minutes
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: Agenda for Webex meeting #2
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From nobody Thu Aug 21 06:41:51 2014
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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:41:23 -0400
From: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/sKQc6VpDeOHoqUzNZ4l65f7vmeM
Subject: Re: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #2
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------040807060404010908050807
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Hi Sheng:

The conf call invite has been confusing: the call was cancelled by 
Michael Behringer for 2pm UTC (9am EDT), but originally scheduled for 
10am EDT (with time only visible to those clicking on the Webex link), 
right?

Please confirm whether the call is still on. It may be worth resending 
invite information as well.

Best regards,

Rene

On 8/20/2014 9:47 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Please find attached a proposal for our webex meeting #2 (in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:
>
> - Comments on the charter 06 (<21/08/2014)
> - Works on NMRG document (action)
> - Selection of Use Case for Charter
>
> In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
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--------------040807060404010908050807
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Sheng:<br>
      <br>
      The conf call invite has been confusing: the call was cancelled by
      Michael Behringer for 2pm UTC (9am EDT), but originally scheduled
      for 10am EDT (with time only visible to those clicking on the
      Webex link), right?<br>
      <br>
      Please confirm whether the call is still on. It may be worth
      resending invite information as well.<br>
      <br>
      Best regards,<br>
      <br>
      Rene<br>
      <br>
      On 8/20/2014 9:47 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF0D629@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Dear all,

Please find attached a proposal for our webex meeting #2 (in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:

- Comments on the charter 06 (&lt;21/08/2014)
- Works on NMRG document (action)
- Selection of Use Case for Charter

In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).

Best regards,

Sheng
</pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com">rstruik.ext@gmail.com</a> | Skype: rstruik
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Hi Brian:

I have the following comment on the minutes of the UCAN BoF session in Toronto:

old:

  Rene Struik - Little verbiage around the use side of the usage scenarios. Need to
   understand the users dependency on the vendor over the long-run.

new:

  Rene Struik - Little verbiage around the use side of the usage scenarios. Need to
   understand the users dependency on the vendor over the long-run. From user perspective,
   one should aim for no forced lock-in by vendor by technical means, i.e., one needs
   "vendor dependency neutrality", similar to "network neutrality".


On 8/15/2014 9:36 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> This is a last call for comments on the accuracy of the
> BOF minutes. Please send any more comments within a week.
>
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/minutes/minutes-90-ucan
>
> Regards
>     Brian Carpenter
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>,  "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #2
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--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C203ABxmbrcdx14ciscoc_
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The call is in 5 min. :)

From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
Sent: 21 August 2014 15:41
To: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #2

Hi Sheng:

The conf call invite has been confusing: the call was cancelled by Michael =
Behringer for 2pm UTC (9am EDT), but originally scheduled for 10am EDT (wit=
h time only visible to those clicking on the Webex link), right?

Please confirm whether the call is still on. It may be worth resending invi=
te information as well.

Best regards,

Rene

On 8/20/2014 9:47 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:

Dear all,



Please find attached a proposal for our webex meeting #2 (in both ppt and p=
df). In short, we will go through:



- Comments on the charter 06 (<21/08/2014)

- Works on NMRG document (action)

- Selection of Use Case for Charter



In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian,=
 Laurent and myself).



Best regards,



Sheng




_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The call is in 5 min.
</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Wingdings"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span></fon=
t><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold">From:</span></=
font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;;color:windowtext">
 Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=
On Behalf Of
</span></b>Rene Struik<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> 21 August 2014 15:41<b=
r>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.=
org<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Anima] Agenda =
for Webex meeting #2<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi Sheng:<br>
<br>
The conf call invite has been confusing: the call was cancelled by Michael =
Behringer for 2pm UTC (9am EDT), but originally scheduled for 10am EDT (wit=
h time only visible to those clicking on the Webex link), right?<br>
<br>
Please confirm whether the call is still on. It may be worth resending invi=
te information as well.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Rene<br>
<br>
On 8/20/2014 9:47 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Please find attached a proposal for our webex meeting #2 (=
in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">- Comments on the charter 06 (&lt;21/08/2014)<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">- Works on NMRG document (action)<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">- Selection of Use Case for Charter<o:p></o:p></span></fon=
t></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers=
 (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Sheng<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Anima mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre=
>
</blockquote>
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<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
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<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
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From nobody Thu Aug 21 10:26:49 2014
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Please find the notes attached. The recording of the call is here:=20

https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D2dc6ab80adcd425a893a605ec=
9ae31ff

Thanks to all who participated!=20
Michael


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--_002_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C20853xmbrcdx14ciscoc_--


From nobody Thu Aug 21 11:42:11 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 18:42:04 +0000
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Hello,

Reading these minutes, the charter still requires (re)work in my opinion:

- it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort, neither motivates =
it appropriately (what does it solve ? what's missing today ? what are the =
"operational" burdens it aims at addressing ? etc.)

- assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture itself but on f=
unctionality, the question stems as of why the "solution target" section of=
 the charter is mostly about protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation, et=
c.) and not on the functionality each of the use cases would provide/solve =
(or more efficiently than we could today by other means)=20

- why the charter lists starting point documents next to each of the goals =
? it reads as if focus is on validating these protocols but it should work =
the other around (essence of the previous point). This being said the two f=
irst documents have never been discussed so why consider them as starting p=
oint ? --note: for the third one, see comment below.=20

- the charter states "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Co=
ntrol Plane" why from the start the architectural decision is to have a "se=
parated" control plane ? and separated from what (to start with) ?=20
Again if OPS area is not focusing on architecture why all these architectur=
al decisions have to be carved in stone in the charter ? shouldn't they be =
documented at the end (as part of the last work item of the charter) instea=
d of the beginning ?

Thanks,
-dimitri.





> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringe=
r
> (mbehring)
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 7:27 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
>=20
> Please find the notes attached. The recording of the call is here:
>=20
> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D2dc6ab80adcd425a893a605=
ec9
> ae31ff
>=20
> Thanks to all who participated!
> Michael


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On 22/08/2014 06:42, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Reading these minutes, the charter still requires (re)work in
> my opinion:
> 
> - it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort,
> neither motivates it appropriately (what does it solve ?
> what's missing today ? what are the "operational" burdens it
> aims at addressing ? etc.)

These issues have certainly been discussed in some of the
existing documents that are assumed as background. It's a matter
of taste how much of this is duplicated in the charter. I agree
that some extra text would help the reader.

> - assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture
> itself but on functionality, the question stems as of why the
> "solution target" section of the charter is mostly about
> protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation, etc.) and not on
> the functionality each of the use cases would provide/solve
> (or more efficiently than we could today by other means)

That is in my personal opinion a recognition of an old truth
about the IETF: we succeed much better when we work on simple
"piece parts" than when we work on architectures and
systems-level solutions.

> - why the charter lists starting point documents next to each
> of the goals ? it reads as if focus is on validating these
> protocols 

What is unclear about the phrase "starting point"? (Although
there is in fact running code, as there is for the
draft-pritikin and draft-behringer documents, but they are more
specific to individual use cases.)

> but it should work the other around (essence of the
> previous point). This being said the two first documents have
> never been discussed 

Actually, they have been presented in IRTF and IETF. But I agree
that discussion is needed.

> so why consider them as starting point ?
> --note: for the third one, see comment below.
> 
> - the charter states "Definition of a solution for a
> separated Autonomic Control Plane" why from the start the
> architectural decision is to have a "separated" control plane

Actually it is only one option, and not intended as a required
feature of a systems architecture. I'm pretty sure that many
deployments would want a logically separate control plane.

> ? and separated from what (to start with) ? 

Separate address space? Separate VLAN? Separate overlay network?
Separate security environmemt? Or even a physically separate
network? Actually I'm not even sure it matters, since these all
seem like valid deployment models.

> Again if OPS area
> is not focusing on architecture why all these architectural
> decisions have to be carved in stone in the charter ?
> shouldn't they be documented at the end (as part of the last
> work item of the charter) instead of the beginning ?

That gets back to my point about piece parts. Yes, by defining a
certain set of parts you constrain the systems architecture and
deployment architecture. I think the approach we're proposing
comes out of a quite long period of discussion in the NMRG and
prototyping and even an initial product, so it seems normal to
me that we tie it down in the charter. The NMRG remains
available as the venue for wider discussions.

All IMHO still
   Brian

> 
> Thanks, -dimitri.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Anima
>> [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Behringer (mbehring) Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 7:27
>> PM To: anima@ietf.org Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
>> Call today
>> 
>> Please find the notes attached. The recording of the call
>> is here:
>> 
>> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=2dc6ab80adcd425a893a605ec9
>>  ae31ff
>> 
>> Thanks to all who participated! Michael
> 
> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing
> list Anima@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpente=
r
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 10:31 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
>=20
> On 22/08/2014 06:42, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Reading these minutes, the charter still requires (re)work in my
> > opinion:
> >
> > - it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort, neither
> > motivates it appropriately (what does it solve ?
> > what's missing today ? what are the "operational" burdens it aims at
> > addressing ? etc.)
>=20
> These issues have certainly been discussed in some of the existing
> documents that are assumed as background. It's a matter of taste how much
> of this is duplicated in the charter. I agree that some extra text would
> help the reader.

Let's see how the reworked text for these sections will provide actual moti=
vation in the form of problem statement, new needs, design limits, etc. wrt=
 current operations and associated models.

> > - assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture itself but
> > on functionality, the question stems as of why the "solution target"
> > section of the charter is mostly about protocol machinery (discovery,
> > negotiation, etc.) and not on the functionality each of the use cases
> > would provide/solve (or more efficiently than we could today by other
> > means)
>=20
> That is in my personal opinion a recognition of an old truth about the
> IETF: we succeed much better when we work on simple "piece parts" than
> when we work on architectures and systems-level solutions.

May be. The approach the OPS area underlines though the fundamental questio=
n as what's the purpose and operational benefits of this effort (instead of=
 the specifics of the design of underlying protocols which would come in a =
second phase). Reading through the charter this goal neither reflects as in=
put nor an output.

Actually, such question raises mainly because despite of the various discus=
sion rounds at IRTF, the NMRG outcomes are mainly qualitative (and for most=
 part few experimental outcomes have been actually documented and consolida=
ted).

> > - why the charter lists starting point documents next to each of the
> > goals ? it reads as if focus is on validating these protocols
>=20
> What is unclear about the phrase "starting point"? (Although there is in
> fact running code, as there is for the draft-pritikin and draft-behringer
> documents, but they are more specific to individual use cases.)

The justification looks for me mainly because these documents exist (instea=
d of reflecting technically objective arguments). As you refer to old truth=
s, it is also known that cross-fertilizing existing with new outcomes is be=
neficial. It doesn't seem to be the case here -why ?=20

> > but it should work the other around (essence of the previous point).
> > This being said the two first documents have never been discussed
>=20
> Actually, they have been presented in IRTF and IETF. But I agree that
> discussion is needed.
>=20
> > so why consider them as starting point ?
> > --note: for the third one, see comment below.
> >
> > - the charter states "Definition of a solution for a separated
> > Autonomic Control Plane" why from the start the architectural decision
> > is to have a "separated" control plane
>=20
> Actually it is only one option, and not intended as a required feature of
> a systems architecture. I'm pretty sure that many deployments would want =
a
> logically separate control plane.

Difficult to state as there is no deployment (yet). The argument seems rath=
er limited to make such statement upfront. I think the charter takes as giv=
en truth what has served as material for discussion at IRTF whereas the tri=
aling phase has been moved to IETF.=20

What can be motivated though is separated or not, the deployment criteria w=
ill be functionality first.

> > ? and separated from what (to start with) ?
>=20
> Separate address space? Separate VLAN? Separate overlay network?
> Separate security environmemt? Or even a physically separate network?
> Actually I'm not even sure it matters, since these all seem like valid
> deployment models.

So why making that assumption at first place ?

> > Again if OPS area
> > is not focusing on architecture why all these architectural decisions
> > have to be carved in stone in the charter ?
> > shouldn't they be documented at the end (as part of the last work item
> > of the charter) instead of the beginning ?
>=20
> That gets back to my point about piece parts. Yes, by defining a certain
> set of parts you constrain the systems architecture and deployment
> architecture. I think the approach we're proposing comes out of a quite
> long period of discussion in the NMRG and prototyping and even an initial
> product, so it seems normal to me that we tie it down in the charter.=20

The trialing/experimental phase at IRTF is too narrow to come with such gro=
und truth statement. There are several alternatives possible and this at di=
fferent levels; the same question occurs for the service agents defined as =
"single function" in the NRMG documents whereas a cross-function agent per =
node is certainly an option to explore --but discarded beforehand for uncle=
ar reasons.=20

> The NMRG remains available as the venue for wider discussions.

The problem remains. This charter requires serious rework because of all th=
e reasons explained here above --and for which technically objective answer=
s are still missing. I suppose you would like this discussion to happen on =
this list not at IRTF.

> All IMHO still
>    Brian
>=20
> >
> > Thanks, -dimitri.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message----- From: Anima
> >> [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringer
> >> (mbehring) Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 7:27 PM To: anima@ietf.org
> >> Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
> >>
> >> Please find the notes attached. The recording of the call is here:
> >>
> >> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D2dc6ab80adcd425a893a=
6
> >> 05ec9
> >>  ae31ff
> >>
> >> Thanks to all who participated! Michael
> >
> > _______________________________________________ Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From nobody Fri Aug 22 01:19:48 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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o) I have sent comments y'day on the current version of the charter. I have=
 put them here below=20
to initiate discussion on the list (instead of conf.calls via Webex) concer=
ning the current state on the charter which still requires major rework.

o) I have an additional comment (related to point 3) here below) concerning=
 cross-fertilization which is part of the old truths of IETF not reflected =
throughout this BoF group --why statements like "It is better that we limit=
 our selection from only the existing use cases." From when there is prescr=
iption that the work should be limited to what has been initially realized =
beforehand ?

o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:=20

- Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes configurat=
ion (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing decision (and it =
would be interesting to confront how autonomics would help automating/adapt=
ing such task with current practices).

- Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out of=
 a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing adja=
cencies or others.

- AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure=20

- Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological informatio=
n analysis, the output of such process should prevent that protecting routi=
ng path fail together with their primary path or that an alternate path fai=
ls right after its selection due to delay in propagation of routing informa=
tion.

- Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by whic=
h the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured and esti=
mated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.

-----

The charter still requires (re)work in my opinion:

- it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort, neither motivates =
it appropriately (what does it solve ? what's missing today ? what are the =
"operational" burdens it aims at addressing ? etc.)

- assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture itself but on f=
unctionality, the question stems as of why the "solution target" section of=
 the charter is mostly about protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation, et=
c.) and not on the functionality each of the use cases would provide/solve =
(or more efficiently than we could today by other means)=20

- why the charter lists starting point documents next to each of the goals =
? it reads as if focus is on validating these protocols but it should work =
the other around (essence of the previous point). This being said the two f=
irst documents have never been discussed so why consider them as starting p=
oint ? --note: for the third one, see comment below.=20

- the charter states "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Co=
ntrol Plane" why from the start the architectural decision is to have a "se=
parated" control plane ? and separated from what (to start with) ? Again if=
 OPS area is not focusing on architecture why all these architectural decis=
ions have to be carved in stone in the charter ? shouldn't they be document=
ed at the end (as part of the last work item of the charter) instead of the=
 beginning ?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 7:44 AM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>=20
> Hi, all,
>=20
> In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two more
> use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder in the
> draft charter, as below.
>=20
>   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
>=20
>   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
>=20
> Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically calle=
d
> out in the charter.
>=20
> For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
> autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter.
> Since we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for new
> use cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the existin=
g
> use cases.
>=20
>  - Home networks
>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>  - Risk Aware Routing
>=20
> We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection
> criteria is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from
> requirements)
>=20
>  - Operator interest
>  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
>  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
>  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
>=20
> Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure components,
> such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic control plane=
.
> One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that
> affect many or all networks.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Aug 22 01:27:43 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Select Use cases for charter
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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:27:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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o) I have sent comments y'day on the current version of the charter. I have=
 put them here below=20
to initiate discussion on the list (instead of conf.calls via Webex) concer=
ning the current state on the charter which still requires major rework.

o) I have an additional comment (related to point 3) here below) concerning=
 cross-fertilization which is part of the old truths of IETF not reflected =
throughout this BoF group --why statements like "It is better that we limit=
 our selection from only the existing use cases." From when there is prescr=
iption that the work should be limited to what has been initially realized =
beforehand ?

o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:=20

- Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes configurat=
ion (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing decision (and it =
would be interesting to confront how autonomics would help automating/adapt=
ing such task with current practices).

- Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out of=
 a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing adja=
cencies or others.

- AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure=20

- Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological informatio=
n analysis, the output of such process should prevent that protecting routi=
ng path fail together with their primary path or that an alternate path fai=
ls right after its selection due to delay in propagation of routing informa=
tion.

- Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by whic=
h the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured and esti=
mated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.

-----

The charter still requires (re)work in my opinion:

- it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort, neither motivates =
it appropriately (what does it solve ? what's missing today ? what are the =
"operational" burdens it aims at addressing ? etc.)

- assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture itself but on f=
unctionality, the question stems as of why the "solution target" section of=
 the charter is mostly about protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation, et=
c.) and not on the functionality each of the use cases would provide/solve =
(or more efficiently than we could today by other means)=20

- why the charter lists starting point documents next to each of the goals =
? it reads as if focus is on validating these protocols but it should work =
the other around (essence of the previous point). This being said the two f=
irst documents have never been discussed so why consider them as starting p=
oint ? --note: for the third one, see comment below.=20

- the charter states "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Co=
ntrol Plane" why from the start the architectural decision is to have a "se=
parated" control plane ? and separated from what (to start with) ? Again if=
 OPS area is not focusing on architecture why all these architectural decis=
ions have to be carved in stone in the charter ? shouldn't they be document=
ed at the end (as part of the last work item of the charter) instead of the=
 beginning ?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 7:44 AM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>=20
> Hi, all,
>=20
> In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two more
> use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder in the
> draft charter, as below.
>=20
>   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
>=20
>   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
>=20
> Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically calle=
d
> out in the charter.
>=20
> For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
> autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter.
> Since we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for new
> use cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the existin=
g
> use cases.
>=20
>  - Home networks
>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>  - Risk Aware Routing
>=20
> We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection
> criteria is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from
> requirements)
>=20
>  - Operator interest
>  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
>  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
>  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
>=20
> Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure components,
> such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic control plane=
.
> One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that
> affect many or all networks.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Aug 22 03:12:38 2014
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Select Use cases for charter
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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Hi Sheng & All,

>  - Home networks
>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>  - Risk Aware Routing

I basically agree with Brian's use case analysis (check the mail on Aug 10t=
h). Among the above use cases, "Assign IPv6 prefixes" seems to fit all the =
criteria.=20
I think it is a very basic operation in a network. And since we already hav=
e DHCP-PD to convey the prefixes assignment, what we need might be some "gl=
ue" approaches which could utilize the Discovery/Negotiation protocol or Au=
tonomic Control Plane.

Besides above use case, if we allow another, I'd prefer the Home networks. =
Because I think the home networks has been very clear on requirements.=20
Nevertheless, according to yesterday's tele-conf, I heard someone said the =
home networks use case had caused a lot trouble? I wasn't in Toronto for An=
ima BoF, so please pardon me if I kicked the trouble again.

Best regards,
Bing


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:44 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>=20
> Hi, all,
>=20
> In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two more
> use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder in the dr=
aft
> charter, as below.
>=20
>   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
>=20
>   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
>=20
> Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically calle=
d
> out in the charter.
>=20
> For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
> autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter. S=
ince
> we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for new use
> cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the existing us=
e cases.
>=20
>  - Home networks
>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>  - Risk Aware Routing
>=20
> We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection crit=
eria
> is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from requirements=
)
>=20
>  - Operator interest
>  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
>  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
>  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
>=20
> Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure components,
> such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic control plane=
.
> One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that aff=
ect
> many or all networks.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Aug 22 13:23:02 2014
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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:23:02 +1200
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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On 22/08/2014 22:11, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
> Hi Sheng & All,
> 
>>  - Home networks
>>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>>  - Risk Aware Routing
> 
> I basically agree with Brian's use case analysis (check the mail on Aug 10th). Among the above use cases, "Assign IPv6 prefixes" seems to fit all the criteria. 
> I think it is a very basic operation in a network. And since we already have DHCP-PD to convey the prefixes assignment, what we need might be some "glue" approaches which could utilize the Discovery/Negotiation protocol or Autonomic Control Plane.
> 
> Besides above use case, if we allow another, I'd prefer the Home networks. Because I think the home networks has been very clear on requirements. 
> Nevertheless, according to yesterday's tele-conf, I heard someone said the home networks use case had caused a lot trouble? I wasn't in Toronto for Anima BoF, so please pardon me if I kicked the trouble again.

Well, there are three aspects to that:

1. I messed up my short presentation of the use case. I didn't make
it clear that it was not a plan to attack homenet's existing work,
but instead a clearly defined problem area that obviously needs to
be self-managing, and therefore an ideal test case for AN ideas.

2. It is actually quite complex with many separate aspects. So
personally I don't think it's a good use case for initial solutions
work - we would have to split it up into many separate pieces.

3. And finally, by the time we are ready (Dec 2015 proposed
in the charter) I really hope that Homenet will have finished
their work on HNCP already. We would be too late.

So I'm going to disagree with Bing on this one.

I'd like people to make critical comments on my spreadsheet
comparing the use cases. One person's opinion isn't sufficient,
and I didn't fill in all the squares. I also think that one or two
other use cases would still be useful.

    Brian

> Best regards,
> Bing
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:44 PM
>> To: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>
>> Hi, all,
>>
>> In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two more
>> use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder in the draft
>> charter, as below.
>>
>>   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>>     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
>>
>>   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>>   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>>   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
>>
>> Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically called
>> out in the charter.
>>
>> For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
>> autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter. Since
>> we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for new use
>> cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the existing use cases.
>>
>>  - Home networks
>>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>>  - Risk Aware Routing
>>
>> We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection criteria
>> is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from requirements)
>>
>>  - Operator interest
>>  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
>>  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
>>  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
>>
>> Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure components,
>> such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic control plane.
>> One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that affect
>> many or all networks.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sheng
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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On 22/08/2014 20:19, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
...
> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion: 
> 
> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
> 
> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing adjacencies or others.
> 
> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure 
> 
> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that an alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in propagation of routing information.
> 
> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured and estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.

That's great. Could you put together a quick draft (or 5 separate drafts, but
that seems a bit silly) expanding on each of these? The headings we
used in the previous set of use case drafts are not of course binding,
but looked like this:

Problem Statement
Intended User and Administrator Experience
Analysis of Parameters and Information Involved:
  Parameters each device can decide for itself
  Information needed from policy intent
Interaction with other devices:
  Information needed from other device
  Monitoring, diagnostics and reporting
Comparison with current solutions

   Brian


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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:47:34 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Hi Brian:

I must say that the suggestion to "That is in my personal opinion a 
recognition of an old truth about the IETF: we succeed much better when 
we work on simple "piece parts" than when we work on architectures and 
systems-level solutions." seems to conflict what is supposed to be the 
goal of autonomic networking effort (see excerpt of the "definitions" 
draft below).

I will comment on the individual drafts mentioned in the draft "charter" 
(if that is what it is -- it is still very hard to interpret this or 
make sense of this) separately.

Right now, it seems much more needs to be done to make this into a 
workable charter, with a coherent task.

[excerpt of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-01 (Section 3.3)]
The goal of the work on autonomic networking in the IETF is therefore 
not just to create autonomic functions, but to define a common 
infrastructure that autonomic functions can use. This autonomic 
networking infrastructure may contain common control and management 
functions such as messaging, service discovery, negotiation, intent 
distribution, self-monitoring and diagnostics, etc. A common approach to 
define and manage intent is also required. Refer to the reference model 
below: All the components around the "autonomic service agents" should 
be common components, such that the autonomic service agents do not have 
to replicate common tasks individually.

Best regards, Rene

On 8/21/2014 4:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 22/08/2014 06:42, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Reading these minutes, the charter still requires (re)work in
>> my opinion:
>>
>> - it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort,
>> neither motivates it appropriately (what does it solve ?
>> what's missing today ? what are the "operational" burdens it
>> aims at addressing ? etc.)
> These issues have certainly been discussed in some of the
> existing documents that are assumed as background. It's a matter
> of taste how much of this is duplicated in the charter. I agree
> that some extra text would help the reader.
>
>> - assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture
>> itself but on functionality, the question stems as of why the
>> "solution target" section of the charter is mostly about
>> protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation, etc.) and not on
>> the functionality each of the use cases would provide/solve
>> (or more efficiently than we could today by other means)
> That is in my personal opinion a recognition of an old truth
> about the IETF: we succeed much better when we work on simple
> "piece parts" than when we work on architectures and
> systems-level solutions.
>
>> - why the charter lists starting point documents next to each
>> of the goals ? it reads as if focus is on validating these
>> protocols
> What is unclear about the phrase "starting point"? (Although
> there is in fact running code, as there is for the
> draft-pritikin and draft-behringer documents, but they are more
> specific to individual use cases.)
>
>> but it should work the other around (essence of the
>> previous point). This being said the two first documents have
>> never been discussed
> Actually, they have been presented in IRTF and IETF. But I agree
> that discussion is needed.
>
>> so why consider them as starting point ?
>> --note: for the third one, see comment below.
>>
>> - the charter states "Definition of a solution for a
>> separated Autonomic Control Plane" why from the start the
>> architectural decision is to have a "separated" control plane
> Actually it is only one option, and not intended as a required
> feature of a systems architecture. I'm pretty sure that many
> deployments would want a logically separate control plane.
>
>> ? and separated from what (to start with) ?
> Separate address space? Separate VLAN? Separate overlay network?
> Separate security environmemt? Or even a physically separate
> network? Actually I'm not even sure it matters, since these all
> seem like valid deployment models.
>
>> Again if OPS area
>> is not focusing on architecture why all these architectural
>> decisions have to be carved in stone in the charter ?
>> shouldn't they be documented at the end (as part of the last
>> work item of the charter) instead of the beginning ?
> That gets back to my point about piece parts. Yes, by defining a
> certain set of parts you constrain the systems architecture and
> deployment architecture. I think the approach we're proposing
> comes out of a quite long period of discussion in the NMRG and
> prototyping and even an initial product, so it seems normal to
> me that we tie it down in the charter. The NMRG remains
> available as the venue for wider discussions.
>
> All IMHO still
>     Brian
>
>> Thanks, -dimitri.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Anima
>>> [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>> Behringer (mbehring) Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 7:27
>>> PM To: anima@ietf.org Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
>>> Call today
>>>
>>> Please find the notes attached. The recording of the call
>>> is here:
>>>
>>> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=2dc6ab80adcd425a893a605ec9
>>>   ae31ff
>>>
>>> Thanks to all who participated! Michael
>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing
>> list Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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Hi, Dimitri and all,

It looks for me that there is a misunderstanding for selecting use cases. I=
t has been consensus that in the early stage of anima WG (if we successfull=
y form it), we will focus on an common infrastructure for autonomic network=
. And we just need one or two simple use cases to demonstrate the usage of =
the common AN infrastructure. The other AN use cases, even new AN use cases=
 in the future are still in the scope. But we will not include them in the =
initial charter (since we won't have enough energe to biol the ocean). Sinc=
e the work item in the charter means we MUST deliver them.

I think your suggested use cases are valuable and in the scope. But they lo=
oks not simple to solve them. First, we need details, probably in a written=
 draft, analysis to understand and evaluate. Then, we need to make sure som=
ebody are willing to work on solution to solve them and promise to deliver =
solution in time. So far, we do NOT have these to consider your suggested u=
se cases, yet. We need to make choice in short time in order to get the WG =
start. However, as I explained, they are in the general scope of AN. We cou=
ld still discuss them in the WG and may take them on board in later stage.=
=20

Best regards,

Sheng

________________________________________
From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou, Dimitri (D=
imitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: 22 August 2014 16:27
To: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter

o) I have sent comments y'day on the current version of the charter. I have=
 put them here below
to initiate discussion on the list (instead of conf.calls via Webex) concer=
ning the current state on the charter which still requires major rework.

o) I have an additional comment (related to point 3) here below) concerning=
 cross-fertilization which is part of the old truths of IETF not reflected =
throughout this BoF group --why statements like "It is better that we limit=
 our selection from only the existing use cases." From when there is prescr=
iption that the work should be limited to what has been initially realized =
beforehand ?

o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:

- Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes configurat=
ion (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing decision (and it =
would be interesting to confront how autonomics would help automating/adapt=
ing such task with current practices).

- Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out of=
 a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing adja=
cencies or others.

- AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure

- Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological informatio=
n analysis, the output of such process should prevent that protecting routi=
ng path fail together with their primary path or that an alternate path fai=
ls right after its selection due to delay in propagation of routing informa=
tion.

- Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by whic=
h the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured and esti=
mated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.

-----

The charter still requires (re)work in my opinion:

- it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort, neither motivates =
it appropriately (what does it solve ? what's missing today ? what are the =
"operational" burdens it aims at addressing ? etc.)

- assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture itself but on f=
unctionality, the question stems as of why the "solution target" section of=
 the charter is mostly about protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation, et=
c.) and not on the functionality each of the use cases would provide/solve =
(or more efficiently than we could today by other means)

- why the charter lists starting point documents next to each of the goals =
? it reads as if focus is on validating these protocols but it should work =
the other around (essence of the previous point). This being said the two f=
irst documents have never been discussed so why consider them as starting p=
oint ? --note: for the third one, see comment below.

- the charter states "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Co=
ntrol Plane" why from the start the architectural decision is to have a "se=
parated" control plane ? and separated from what (to start with) ? Again if=
 OPS area is not focusing on architecture why all these architectural decis=
ions have to be carved in stone in the charter ? shouldn't they be document=
ed at the end (as part of the last work item of the charter) instead of the=
 beginning ?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 7:44 AM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>
> Hi, all,
>
> In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two more
> use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder in the
> draft charter, as below.
>
>   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
>
>   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
>
> Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically calle=
d
> out in the charter.
>
> For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
> autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter.
> Since we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for new
> use cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the existin=
g
> use cases.
>
>  - Home networks
>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>  - Risk Aware Routing
>
> We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection
> criteria is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from
> requirements)
>
>  - Operator interest
>  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
>  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
>  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
>
> Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure components,
> such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic control plane=
.
> One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that
> affect many or all networks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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From nobody Fri Aug 22 19:20:43 2014
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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:20:45 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/NJaUz8Ydu3pMZTJmBRPjnDK7gA8
Cc: "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Papadimitriou,  Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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On 23/08/2014 08:47, Rene Struik wrote:
> Hi Brian:
> 
> I must say that the suggestion to "That is in my personal opinion a
> recognition of an old truth about the IETF: we succeed much better when
> we work on simple "piece parts" than when we work on architectures and
> systems-level solutions." seems to conflict what is supposed to be the
> goal of autonomic networking effort (see excerpt of the "definitions"
> draft below).

Nevertheless, it isn't the IETF that designs traditional network
management systems - we design protocols used by network management
systems; vendors and/or large sites design the systems. I think that
tells us something about what can be achieved.

Don't misunderstand me. We need to design things that can be fitted
together into a coherent whole, and that's why the excerpt you quote
below exists. But what can the IETF's output documents be except
a set of mutually consistent protocol specifications?

> I will comment on the individual drafts mentioned in the draft "charter"
> (if that is what it is -- it is still very hard to interpret this or
> make sense of this) separately.
> 
> Right now, it seems much more needs to be done to make this into a
> workable charter, with a coherent task.

I feel you are trying to ask the charter to contain the WG's output,
not a description of its scope. But anyway, I will leave it to someone
else to propose the next draft of the charter.

    Brian

> 
> [excerpt of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-01 (Section 3.3)]
> The goal of the work on autonomic networking in the IETF is therefore
> not just to create autonomic functions, but to define a common
> infrastructure that autonomic functions can use. This autonomic
> networking infrastructure may contain common control and management
> functions such as messaging, service discovery, negotiation, intent
> distribution, self-monitoring and diagnostics, etc. A common approach to
> define and manage intent is also required. Refer to the reference model
> below: All the components around the "autonomic service agents" should
> be common components, such that the autonomic service agents do not have
> to replicate common tasks individually.
> 
> Best regards, Rene
> 
> On 8/21/2014 4:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 22/08/2014 06:42, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Reading these minutes, the charter still requires (re)work in
>>> my opinion:
>>>
>>> - it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort,
>>> neither motivates it appropriately (what does it solve ?
>>> what's missing today ? what are the "operational" burdens it
>>> aims at addressing ? etc.)
>> These issues have certainly been discussed in some of the
>> existing documents that are assumed as background. It's a matter
>> of taste how much of this is duplicated in the charter. I agree
>> that some extra text would help the reader.
>>
>>> - assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture
>>> itself but on functionality, the question stems as of why the
>>> "solution target" section of the charter is mostly about
>>> protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation, etc.) and not on
>>> the functionality each of the use cases would provide/solve
>>> (or more efficiently than we could today by other means)
>> That is in my personal opinion a recognition of an old truth
>> about the IETF: we succeed much better when we work on simple
>> "piece parts" than when we work on architectures and
>> systems-level solutions.
>>
>>> - why the charter lists starting point documents next to each
>>> of the goals ? it reads as if focus is on validating these
>>> protocols
>> What is unclear about the phrase "starting point"? (Although
>> there is in fact running code, as there is for the
>> draft-pritikin and draft-behringer documents, but they are more
>> specific to individual use cases.)
>>
>>> but it should work the other around (essence of the
>>> previous point). This being said the two first documents have
>>> never been discussed
>> Actually, they have been presented in IRTF and IETF. But I agree
>> that discussion is needed.
>>
>>> so why consider them as starting point ?
>>> --note: for the third one, see comment below.
>>>
>>> - the charter states "Definition of a solution for a
>>> separated Autonomic Control Plane" why from the start the
>>> architectural decision is to have a "separated" control plane
>> Actually it is only one option, and not intended as a required
>> feature of a systems architecture. I'm pretty sure that many
>> deployments would want a logically separate control plane.
>>
>>> ? and separated from what (to start with) ?
>> Separate address space? Separate VLAN? Separate overlay network?
>> Separate security environmemt? Or even a physically separate
>> network? Actually I'm not even sure it matters, since these all
>> seem like valid deployment models.
>>
>>> Again if OPS area
>>> is not focusing on architecture why all these architectural
>>> decisions have to be carved in stone in the charter ?
>>> shouldn't they be documented at the end (as part of the last
>>> work item of the charter) instead of the beginning ?
>> That gets back to my point about piece parts. Yes, by defining a
>> certain set of parts you constrain the systems architecture and
>> deployment architecture. I think the approach we're proposing
>> comes out of a quite long period of discussion in the NMRG and
>> prototyping and even an initial product, so it seems normal to
>> me that we tie it down in the charter. The NMRG remains
>> available as the venue for wider discussions.
>>
>> All IMHO still
>>     Brian
>>
>>> Thanks, -dimitri.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Anima
>>>> [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>> Behringer (mbehring) Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 7:27
>>>> PM To: anima@ietf.org Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
>>>> Call today
>>>>
>>>> Please find the notes attached. The recording of the call
>>>> is here:
>>>>
>>>> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=2dc6ab80adcd425a893a605ec9
>>>>
>>>>   ae31ff
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to all who participated! Michael
>>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing
>>> list Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 


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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:28:02 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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> --The exception is what you refer as information needed from "policy intent" as it still not clear to me in which sense these words are used: in the common sense a policy is a mapping from state to action whereas an intent (from Webster) is defined as 'the thing you plan to do or achieve: an aim or purpose', so do you mean "lookahead policies" (as considered in model-predictive control, rolling horizon, etc.) or something else ? note here that the IRTF document mentions "intent: an abstract high level policy..." thus not sure I would be able to put the pieces altogether.

I think Michael needs to comment on this. It is a question of what
we mean by the word "policy" I guess. In BGP-4 for example,
"filter out all /24s from APNIC space" might be considered an intent but
"filter out 123.123.123.0/24" might be considered a specific policy.
I'm not sure there is anything more subtle than that.

Regards
   Brian

On 23/08/2014 13:04, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> My goal is to synthesize a 5 page doc (one per use case), with references including work realized involving closed-loop adaptive control/multi-agent control/etc. and for most the information elements are available. 
> 
> --The exception is what you refer as information needed from "policy intent" as it still not clear to me in which sense these words are used: in the common sense a policy is a mapping from state to action whereas an intent (from Webster) is defined as 'the thing you plan to do or achieve: an aim or purpose', so do you mean "lookahead policies" (as considered in model-predictive control, rolling horizon, etc.) or something else ? note here that the IRTF document mentions "intent: an abstract high level policy..." thus not sure I would be able to put the pieces altogether.
> 
> This being said, over past years (and decades) numerous effort have worked on similar topics/cases but most of them aimed at evaluating potential gain, validating underlying procedures/algorithms, etc. but not (necessarily) the underlying "system design". As the high level outline of this design has just been issued, it shouldn't come at a surprise that I consider such cross-validation as work to be realized (modalities and timeline should be lined up accordingly).
> 
> Last point, I see the charter refers to "solution", may be "evaluation" could be more inline with type of work to be conducted.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 10:34 PM
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>
>> On 22/08/2014 20:19, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>> ...
>>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
>>>
>>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing
>> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would
>> help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
>>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out
>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing
>> adjacencies or others.
>>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
>>>
>>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
>> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that
>> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that an
>> alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in propagation
>> of routing information.
>>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by
>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured and
>> estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
>>
>> That's great. Could you put together a quick draft (or 5 separate drafts,
>> but that seems a bit silly) expanding on each of these? The headings we
>> used in the previous set of use case drafts are not of course binding, but
>> looked like this:
>>
>> Problem Statement
>> Intended User and Administrator Experience Analysis of Parameters and
>> Information Involved:
>>   Parameters each device can decide for itself
>>   Information needed from policy intent
>> Interaction with other devices:
>>   Information needed from other device
>>   Monitoring, diagnostics and reporting
>> Comparison with current solutions
>>
>>    Brian
> 


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Select Use cases for charter
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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:58:01 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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I have checked mailing list and minutes out of the first BoF. The statement=
 "It has been consensus that in the early stage of anima WG (if we successf=
ully form it)... we just need one or two simple use cases to demonstrate th=
e usage of the common AN infrastructure. The other AN use cases, even new A=
N use cases in the future are still in the scope. But we will not include t=
hem in the initial charter." can't be valid as there is no trace of consens=
us reached on this point (neither call for consensus from the chairs on the=
 mailing list).=20

All the contrary: the minutes of the BoF state "Chair asked for submissions=
 of new use cases" reading behind this statement i) existing use cases woul=
d be insufficient to motivate this effort and its objective of commonality =
(are they sufficiently representative ? how many do we need ?), and ii) try=
ing increase involvement (20 out of the 200 participants to the BoF raising=
 hands when it comes to contribution).

This group would be well advised to see first what's on the table and see w=
hich use cases could help this goal, and which would be seen as involving s=
ource of information/processes which might not be commonly available to mak=
e their trialing and deployment possible in a shorter term (and possibly te=
am up with NMRG).

Note: the statement in current version of the charter "stay focused and avo=
id boiling the ocean" and what comes thereafter has anyway to be replaced b=
y a technically objective statement.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 1:31 AM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Select Use cases for charter
>=20
> Hi, Dimitri and all,
>=20
> It looks for me that there is a misunderstanding for selecting use cases.
> It has been consensus that in the early stage of anima WG (if we
> successfully form it), we will focus on an common infrastructure for
> autonomic network. And we just need one or two simple use cases to
> demonstrate the usage of the common AN infrastructure. The other AN use
> cases, even new AN use cases in the future are still in the scope. But we
> will not include them in the initial charter (since we won't have enough
> energe to biol the ocean). Since the work item in the charter means we
> MUST deliver them.
>=20
> I think your suggested use cases are valuable and in the scope. But they
> looks not simple to solve them. First, we need details, probably in a
> written draft, analysis to understand and evaluate. Then, we need to make
> sure somebody are willing to work on solution to solve them and promise t=
o
> deliver solution in time. So far, we do NOT have these to consider your
> suggested use cases, yet. We need to make choice in short time in order t=
o
> get the WG start. However, as I explained, they are in the general scope
> of AN. We could still discuss them in the WG and may take them on board i=
n
> later stage.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
>=20
> ________________________________________
> From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou, Dimitri
> (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: 22 August 2014 16:27
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>=20
> o) I have sent comments y'day on the current version of the charter. I
> have put them here below to initiate discussion on the list (instead of
> conf.calls via Webex) concerning the current state on the charter which
> still requires major rework.
>=20
> o) I have an additional comment (related to point 3) here below)
> concerning cross-fertilization which is part of the old truths of IETF no=
t
> reflected throughout this BoF group --why statements like "It is better
> that we limit our selection from only the existing use cases." From when
> there is prescription that the work should be limited to what has been
> initially realized beforehand ?
>=20
> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
>=20
> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing
> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would
> help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
>=20
> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out
> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing
> adjacencies or others.
>=20
> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
>=20
> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that
> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that an
> alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in propagatio=
n
> of routing information.
>=20
> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by
> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured an=
d
> estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
>=20
> -----
>=20
> The charter still requires (re)work in my opinion:
>=20
> - it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort, neither motivate=
s
> it appropriately (what does it solve ? what's missing today ? what are th=
e
> "operational" burdens it aims at addressing ? etc.)
>=20
> - assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture itself but on
> functionality, the question stems as of why the "solution target" section
> of the charter is mostly about protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation=
,
> etc.) and not on the functionality each of the use cases would
> provide/solve (or more efficiently than we could today by other means)
>=20
> - why the charter lists starting point documents next to each of the goal=
s
> ? it reads as if focus is on validating these protocols but it should wor=
k
> the other around (essence of the previous point). This being said the two
> first documents have never been discussed so why consider them as startin=
g
> point ? --note: for the third one, see comment below.
>=20
> - the charter states "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic
> Control Plane" why from the start the architectural decision is to have a
> "separated" control plane ? and separated from what (to start with) ?
> Again if OPS area is not focusing on architecture why all these
> architectural decisions have to be carved in stone in the charter ?
> shouldn't they be documented at the end (as part of the last work item of
> the charter) instead of the beginning ?
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 7:44 AM
> > To: anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
> >
> > Hi, all,
> >
> > In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two
> > more use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder
> > in the draft charter, as below.
> >
> >   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
> >     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
> >
> >   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
> >   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
> >   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
> >
> > Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically
> > called out in the charter.
> >
> > For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
> > autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter.
> > Since we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for
> > new use cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the
> > existing use cases.
> >
> >  - Home networks
> >  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
> >  - Assign IPv4 pools
> >  - Detection of SLA Violations
> >  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
> >  - Risk Aware Routing
> >
> > We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection
> > criteria is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from
> > requirements)
> >
> >  - Operator interest
> >  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
> >  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
> >  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
> >
> > Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure
> > components, such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic
> control plane.
> > One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that
> > affect many or all networks.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sheng
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Sat Aug 23 13:38:32 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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On 24/08/2014 00:58, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> I have checked mailing list and minutes out of the first BoF. The statement "It has been consensus that in the early stage of anima WG (if we successfully form it)... we just need one or two simple use cases to demonstrate the usage of the common AN infrastructure. The other AN use cases, even new AN use cases in the future are still in the scope. But we will not include them in the initial charter." can't be valid as there is no trace of consensus reached on this point (neither call for consensus from the chairs on the mailing list). 

It's a draft charter, not a consensus statement yet. That's why we're discussing it here ;-)

> All the contrary: the minutes of the BoF state "Chair asked for submissions of new use cases" reading behind this statement i) existing use cases would be insufficient to motivate this effort and its objective of commonality (are they sufficiently representative ? how many do we need ?), and ii) trying increase involvement (20 out of the 200 participants to the BoF raising hands when it comes to contribution).

You're reading more into it that was in my mind as a BOF co-chair.

> This group would be well advised to see first what's on the table and see which use cases could help this goal, and which would be seen as involving source of information/processes which might not be commonly available to make their trialing and deployment possible in a shorter term (and possibly team up with NMRG).

Well yes: if you'd like us to set a firm deadline for use case proposals
we can do so, but I'm not sure why we would do that. Of course we need
firm deadlines for submitting a charter to the ADs and submitting
a request for a meeting slot at the next IETF, and we have proposed
those dates.

> Note: the statement in current version of the charter "stay focused and avoid boiling the ocean" and what comes thereafter has anyway to be replaced by a technically objective statement.

I disagree. A statement like that is perhaps redundant - it should apply
to every WG, after all - but refer to particular risks for this topic. The
technically objective statements are the deliverables and milestones.

   Brian


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 1:31 AM
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: Select Use cases for charter
>>
>> Hi, Dimitri and all,
>>
>> It looks for me that there is a misunderstanding for selecting use cases.
>> It has been consensus that in the early stage of anima WG (if we
>> successfully form it), we will focus on an common infrastructure for
>> autonomic network. And we just need one or two simple use cases to
>> demonstrate the usage of the common AN infrastructure. The other AN use
>> cases, even new AN use cases in the future are still in the scope. But we
>> will not include them in the initial charter (since we won't have enough
>> energe to biol the ocean). Since the work item in the charter means we
>> MUST deliver them.
>>
>> I think your suggested use cases are valuable and in the scope. But they
>> looks not simple to solve them. First, we need details, probably in a
>> written draft, analysis to understand and evaluate. Then, we need to make
>> sure somebody are willing to work on solution to solve them and promise to
>> deliver solution in time. So far, we do NOT have these to consider your
>> suggested use cases, yet. We need to make choice in short time in order to
>> get the WG start. However, as I explained, they are in the general scope
>> of AN. We could still discuss them in the WG and may take them on board in
>> later stage.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sheng
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou, Dimitri
>> (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> Sent: 22 August 2014 16:27
>> To: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>
>> o) I have sent comments y'day on the current version of the charter. I
>> have put them here below to initiate discussion on the list (instead of
>> conf.calls via Webex) concerning the current state on the charter which
>> still requires major rework.
>>
>> o) I have an additional comment (related to point 3) here below)
>> concerning cross-fertilization which is part of the old truths of IETF not
>> reflected throughout this BoF group --why statements like "It is better
>> that we limit our selection from only the existing use cases." From when
>> there is prescription that the work should be limited to what has been
>> initially realized beforehand ?
>>
>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
>>
>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing
>> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would
>> help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
>>
>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out
>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing
>> adjacencies or others.
>>
>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
>>
>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
>> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that
>> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that an
>> alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in propagation
>> of routing information.
>>
>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by
>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured and
>> estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> The charter still requires (re)work in my opinion:
>>
>> - it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort, neither motivates
>> it appropriately (what does it solve ? what's missing today ? what are the
>> "operational" burdens it aims at addressing ? etc.)
>>
>> - assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture itself but on
>> functionality, the question stems as of why the "solution target" section
>> of the charter is mostly about protocol machinery (discovery, negotiation,
>> etc.) and not on the functionality each of the use cases would
>> provide/solve (or more efficiently than we could today by other means)
>>
>> - why the charter lists starting point documents next to each of the goals
>> ? it reads as if focus is on validating these protocols but it should work
>> the other around (essence of the previous point). This being said the two
>> first documents have never been discussed so why consider them as starting
>> point ? --note: for the third one, see comment below.
>>
>> - the charter states "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic
>> Control Plane" why from the start the architectural decision is to have a
>> "separated" control plane ? and separated from what (to start with) ?
>> Again if OPS area is not focusing on architecture why all these
>> architectural decisions have to be carved in stone in the charter ?
>> shouldn't they be documented at the end (as part of the last work item of
>> the charter) instead of the beginning ?
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 7:44 AM
>>> To: anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>
>>> Hi, all,
>>>
>>> In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two
>>> more use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder
>>> in the draft charter, as below.
>>>
>>>   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>>>     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
>>>
>>>   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>>>   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>>>   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
>>>
>>> Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically
>>> called out in the charter.
>>>
>>> For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
>>> autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter.
>>> Since we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for
>>> new use cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the
>>> existing use cases.
>>>
>>>  - Home networks
>>>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>>>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>>>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>>>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>>>  - Risk Aware Routing
>>>
>>> We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection
>>> criteria is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from
>>> requirements)
>>>
>>>  - Operator interest
>>>  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
>>>  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
>>>  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
>>>
>>> Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure
>>> components, such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic
>> control plane.
>>> One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that
>>> affect many or all networks.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Sheng
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 23:24:34 +0000
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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Dimitri>> Note: the statement in current version of the charter "stay focus=
ed and avoid boiling the ocean" and what >comes thereafter has anyway to be=
 replaced by a technically objective statement.
>
Brian>I disagree. A statement like that is perhaps redundant - it should ap=
ply
>to every WG, after all - but refer to particular risks for this topic. The
>technically objective statements are the deliverables and milestones.

Agree with Brian. Actually, "too wide, not focus" and "do not boil the ocea=
" were the most montioned comments during the IETF week regarding to our Au=
tonomic Network. From our OPS ADs, we need an explicit focus to initiate a =
WG and deliver the milestones. Focusing on an common infrastructure for aut=
onomic network is the result among BoF proponents.

More use cases and their solutions will be more than welcome, of course. Bu=
t at this stage, it does not help to convience OPS ADs and IESG that we hav=
e clear focus and will deliver the milestones. If we successfully formed a =
WG, use cases regarding to Autonomic Network should be in scope to be discu=
ssed and may be adopted in later stage. I guess we could add some clarifyin=
g text into the draft charter.

Best regards,

Sheng

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 1:31 AM
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: Select Use cases for charter
>>
>> Hi, Dimitri and all,
>>
>> It looks for me that there is a misunderstanding for selecting use cases=
.
>> It has been consensus that in the early stage of anima WG (if we
>> successfully form it), we will focus on an common infrastructure for
>> autonomic network. And we just need one or two simple use cases to
>> demonstrate the usage of the common AN infrastructure. The other AN use
>> cases, even new AN use cases in the future are still in the scope. But w=
e
>> will not include them in the initial charter (since we won't have enough
>> energe to biol the ocean). Since the work item in the charter means we
>> MUST deliver them.
>>
>> I think your suggested use cases are valuable and in the scope. But they
>> looks not simple to solve them. First, we need details, probably in a
>> written draft, analysis to understand and evaluate. Then, we need to mak=
e
>> sure somebody are willing to work on solution to solve them and promise =
to
>> deliver solution in time. So far, we do NOT have these to consider your
>> suggested use cases, yet. We need to make choice in short time in order =
to
>> get the WG start. However, as I explained, they are in the general scope
>> of AN. We could still discuss them in the WG and may take them on board =
in
>> later stage.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sheng
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou, Dimitri
>> (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> Sent: 22 August 2014 16:27
>> To: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>
>> o) I have sent comments y'day on the current version of the charter. I
>> have put them here below to initiate discussion on the list (instead of
>> conf.calls via Webex) concerning the current state on the charter which
>> still requires major rework.
>>
>> o) I have an additional comment (related to point 3) here below)
>> concerning cross-fertilization which is part of the old truths of IETF n=
ot
>> reflected throughout this BoF group --why statements like "It is better
>> that we limit our selection from only the existing use cases." From when
>> there is prescription that the work should be limited to what has been
>> initially realized beforehand ?
>>
>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
>>
>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing
>> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would
>> help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
>>
>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out
>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing
>> adjacencies or others.
>>
>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
>>
>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
>> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that
>> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that an
>> alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in propagati=
on
>> of routing information.
>>
>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by
>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured a=
nd
>> estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> The charter still requires (re)work in my opinion:
>>
>> - it doesn't state the overall objective of this effort, neither motivat=
es
>> it appropriately (what does it solve ? what's missing today ? what are t=
he
>> "operational" burdens it aims at addressing ? etc.)
>>
>> - assuming OPS area doesn't put major focus on architecture itself but o=
n
>> functionality, the question stems as of why the "solution target" sectio=
n
>> of the charter is mostly about protocol machinery (discovery, negotiatio=
n,
>> etc.) and not on the functionality each of the use cases would
>> provide/solve (or more efficiently than we could today by other means)
>>
>> - why the charter lists starting point documents next to each of the goa=
ls
>> ? it reads as if focus is on validating these protocols but it should wo=
rk
>> the other around (essence of the previous point). This being said the tw=
o
>> first documents have never been discussed so why consider them as starti=
ng
>> point ? --note: for the third one, see comment below.
>>
>> - the charter states "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic
>> Control Plane" why from the start the architectural decision is to have =
a
>> "separated" control plane ? and separated from what (to start with) ?
>> Again if OPS area is not focusing on architecture why all these
>> architectural decisions have to be carved in stone in the charter ?
>> shouldn't they be documented at the end (as part of the last work item o=
f
>> the charter) instead of the beginning ?
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 7:44 AM
>>> To: anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>
>>> Hi, all,
>>>
>>> In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two
>>> more use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder
>>> in the draft charter, as below.
>>>
>>>   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>>>     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
>>>
>>>   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>>>   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>>>   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
>>>
>>> Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically
>>> called out in the charter.
>>>
>>> For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
>>> autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter.
>>> Since we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for
>>> new use cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the
>>> existing use cases.
>>>
>>>  - Home networks
>>>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>>>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>>>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>>>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>>>  - Risk Aware Routing
>>>
>>> We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection
>>> criteria is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from
>>> requirements)
>>>
>>>  - Operator interest
>>>  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
>>>  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
>>>  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
>>>
>>> Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure
>>> components, such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic
>> control plane.
>>> One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that
>>> affect many or all networks.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Sheng
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Select Use cases for charter
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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 23:44:15 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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HI, Bing,

Please see my replies in lines.
_______________________________________
>From: Liubing (Leo)
>Sent: 22 August 2014 18:11
>To: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>Subject: RE: Select Use cases for charter
>
>Hi Sheng & All,
>
>>  - Home networks
>>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>>  - Risk Aware Routing
>
>I basically agree with Brian's use case analysis (check the mail on Aug 10=
th). Among the above use cases, >"Assign IPv6 prefixes" seems to fit all th=
e criteria.
>I think it is a very basic operation in a network. And since we already ha=
ve DHCP-PD to convey the >prefixes assignment, what we need might be some "=
glue" approaches which could utilize the >Discovery/Negotiation protocol or=
 Autonomic Control Plane.

To be accurate, the use case should be "autonomically manage IPv6 prefix in=
 large networks" rather than "Assign IPv6 prefix", which can already do by =
DHCP-PD.

I agree it is the best fitted use case for our criteria. It is simple, fund=
amental and has clear carrier interests. The only thing we need is to make =
sure the solution use either Discovery/Negotiation protocol or autonomic co=
ntrol plane. Personally, I see no problem to combine them together.

>Besides above use case, if we allow another, I'd prefer the Home networks.=
 Because I think the home >networks has been very clear on requirements.
>Nevertheless, according to yesterday's tele-conf, I heard someone said the=
 home networks use case had >caused a lot trouble? I wasn't in Toronto for =
Anima BoF, so please pardon me if I kicked the trouble again.

It was me who said home network had caused a lot trouble and should be rule=
d out first. HomeNet WG has just developed their own control protocols. We =
would not want any overlap with their ongoing work. This has been discussed=
 and made very clear during IETF week, mostly by discussion among BoF chair=
s, OPS ADs and HomeNet chairs.

Best regards,

Sheng

>Best regards,
>Bing


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:44 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>
> Hi, all,
>
> In order to complete our anima draft charter, we need to choose two more
> use cases. Currently, they are still in the form of placeholder in the dr=
aft
> charter, as below.
>
>   o Definition of solutions for one or two selected use cases
>     Starting points: draft-use-case-tbd1&2
>
>   Apr 2015 - adoption of draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Oct 2015 - WGLC draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2
>   Dec 2015 - submit draft-use-case-solution-tbd1&2 to IESG
>
> Our OPS ADs suggested that the two use cases should be specifically calle=
d
> out in the charter.
>
> For now, we have the below use cases besides autonomic bootstrap and
> autonomic control plane that are already included in the draft charter. S=
ince
> we need to make decision in around 10 days, it may be late for new use
> cases. It is better that we limit our selection from only the existing us=
e cases.
>
>  - Home networks
>  - Assign IPv6 prefixes
>  - Assign IPv4 pools
>  - Detection of SLA Violations
>  - Microwave Mobile Backhaul
>  - Risk Aware Routing
>
> We also have some selection criteria, as below. (Note: the selection crit=
eria
> is mainly for distinguish use cases. They are different from requirements=
)
>
>  - Operator interest
>  - Distributed function is necessary or useful
>  - Share infrastructure (dependency on/by other AN functions)
>  - Simple to implement (easier to get started)
>
> Ideally, the selected use cases should use AN infrastructure components,
> such as generic discovery/negotiation protocol or autonomic control plane=
.
> One more potential criteria is to give priority to the use cases that aff=
ect
> many or all networks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


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Thread-Topic: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 20:41:30 +0000
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> Carpenter
> Sent: 22 August 2014 20:28
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>=20
> > --The exception is what you refer as information needed from "policy
> intent" as it still not clear to me in which sense these words are used: =
in the
> common sense a policy is a mapping from state to action whereas an intent
> (from Webster) is defined as 'the thing you plan to do or achieve: an aim=
 or
> purpose', so do you mean "lookahead policies" (as considered in model-
> predictive control, rolling horizon, etc.) or something else ? note here =
that
> the IRTF document mentions "intent: an abstract high level policy..." thu=
s
> not sure I would be able to put the pieces altogether.
>=20
> I think Michael needs to comment on this. It is a question of what we mea=
n
> by the word "policy" I guess. In BGP-4 for example, "filter out all /24s =
from
> APNIC space" might be considered an intent but "filter out
> 123.123.123.0/24" might be considered a specific policy.
> I'm not sure there is anything more subtle than that.

For reference, this is what draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-0=
2 states about intent:=20

   Intent: An abstract, high level policy used to operate the network
   autonomically.  Its scope is an autonomic domain, such as an
   enterprise network.  It does not contain configuration or information
   for a specific node (see Section 3.2 on how intent co-exists with
   alternative management paradigms).  It may contain information
   pertaining to nodes with a specific role.

To respond to Dimitri's comment, what we had in mind when we came up with t=
he notion of "intent" is indeed the Webster definition above. Intent define=
s the "aim or purpose" of the network, rather than individual actions to ac=
hieve those. Each element receives intent, and takes it as the "aim" that t=
he admin has defined for the network. My favourite example is "this network=
 has guestnet". Which is a general aim. Each network element needs to trans=
late this into specific actions that will result in the aim stated in inten=
t.=20

We didn't want to re-use the word "policy", because there are plenty of pol=
icy languages that are setting detailed local variables. "aim or purpose of=
 the network" is what we were after.=20

Does this description make sense? Maybe we should then re-phrase the above =
definition to=20

   Intent: An abstract, high level policy defining the aim or overall purpo=
se
   of the network. (rest unchanged)

Is that better? If the above rough description makes sense, how can we defi=
ne it better? Please provide suggestions, happy to incorporate in the next =
version of the definitions draft.=20

Michael


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Open Issues
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[writing this on a plane, have been offline for hours; apologies if this cr=
osses with other posts]

ANIMA,=20

I missed two days of email, and am trying to catch up now. Lots of discussi=
ons have happened, and the proposed charter has been discussed a lot, which=
 is great. Thanks for all the feedback. Rather than responding to each mail=
 threat and thought separately, let me try to list the open issues here fir=
st. I'm paraphrasing, and try to focus on the key points. Let me know if I =
missed a key open point.=20

Comments I saw:=20

- Charter discussion:=20
  + overall objective and motivation missing. [Dimitri; Rene]
  + why are the "starting points" chosen, needs more explanation. [Dimitri]
  + explain ACP, why "separated"? (define it)
  + We're not focusing on architecture, yet, the docs imply an architecture=
. [Dimitri]

- need for an auxiliary document explaining the overall architecture. Detai=
ls are not decided, but I think there is consensus that this should go in p=
arallel to the other activities, not be a pre-condition.=20

- Use cases:=20
  + Not clear whether / how / how many to include in the charter.=20
  + Dimitri suggested a few more use cases which should be included.=20

In terms of *important* things to fix, is the above list complete? (Obvious=
ly, there will be tons of details to discuss).=20

Michael


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: What we want to achieve - personal view.
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Subject: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.
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It is fairly clear that the charter isn't good enough yet, we had too many =
comments about this. Can we take a step back, look at the big picture, see =
whether we agree on that level, and THEN dive back down to writing somethin=
g down?=20

Here is how I would phrase it, informally. Train of thought:=20

1) Independent processes: Networks today have a number of processes that ru=
n distributed, and do things on their own. The admin monitors, and takes ca=
re of exceptions, but by and large these processes run on their own in the =
network. (I call that "autonomic", but the term itself has raised discussio=
ns, so let's leave that discussion for later, to stay focused). Examples ar=
e all the IGPs, VRRP, etc.=20

2) Lack of common infrastructure: All those processes run independently of =
each other. Each of them has its own way to communicate, manage policy (if =
applicable), secure itself, etc. This is where I am coming from: I used to =
work in infrastructure security, and the fact that you have to secure each =
protocol independently, each with its own key scheme, algorithms, etc is a =
major pain in operating networks today. This is the security angle, but oth=
er angles exist, for example monitoring, reporting, general policy, etc.=20

The above to me is the problem statement. Why is that a problem that needs =
fixing? Because the operational cost of securing a network is a problem. An=
d when opex is reduced, security suffers. Others may chime in with similar =
stories from their area of expertise, but I think it's a pretty generic iss=
ue.=20

The goal then is:=20

3) Finding common infrastructure: Assume we accept for a moment that the la=
ck of common functions across a network is an issue, can this be simplified=
? Can we define one, simple way to manage for example the key material for =
all the protocols, in one go? We tried to find a solution and came up with =
draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures; that draft describes how t=
o securely bootstrap a key infrastructure, which can then be used to secure=
 ALL protocols through the lifetime of the network (ie not one-off), largel=
y without admin involvement. Again, this is the security angle; I think thi=
s is a use case in itself, but other cases exist.=20

Now, if this work simplifies just a single aspect of networking (such as se=
curity), we'd have made progress, and IMO it would be worthwhile. If we can=
 simplify several components of networking in this way, and if we do this i=
n a coherent way, then we have the potential to really create a largely "se=
lf-managing" network. But frankly, I prefer the bottom up approach, let's t=
ackle one function at a time, small steps. Of course, having an overall goa=
l in mind.=20

Now, does this train of thought make sense at all? Dimitri? Rene? Others? =
=20

Michael


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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As "Each network element needs to translate this into specific actions that=
 will result in the aim stated in intent." the mapping (translation) from s=
tate to actions is left locally at the node level, which is the most genera=
l definition of policy.=20

Hence, in the definition of intent, instead of referring to "high-level pol=
icy" you could refer to "high-level objective". This would avoid overloadin=
g the term policy and would settle a clearer demarcation line with DMTF/pol=
icy-based management models which uses different level of policies (high-/l=
ow-level, network/node-specific, etc.).

Thanks,
-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 PM
> To: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> > Carpenter
> > Sent: 22 August 2014 20:28
> > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> > Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
> >
> > > --The exception is what you refer as information needed from "policy
> > intent" as it still not clear to me in which sense these words are
> > used: in the common sense a policy is a mapping from state to action
> > whereas an intent (from Webster) is defined as 'the thing you plan to
> > do or achieve: an aim or purpose', so do you mean "lookahead policies"
> > (as considered in model- predictive control, rolling horizon, etc.) or
> > something else ? note here that the IRTF document mentions "intent: an
> > abstract high level policy..." thus not sure I would be able to put the
> pieces altogether.
> >
> > I think Michael needs to comment on this. It is a question of what we
> > mean by the word "policy" I guess. In BGP-4 for example, "filter out
> > all /24s from APNIC space" might be considered an intent but "filter
> > out 123.123.123.0/24" might be considered a specific policy.
> > I'm not sure there is anything more subtle than that.
>=20
> For reference, this is what draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions=
-
> 02 states about intent:
>=20
>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy used to operate the network
>    autonomically.  Its scope is an autonomic domain, such as an
>    enterprise network.  It does not contain configuration or information
>    for a specific node (see Section 3.2 on how intent co-exists with
>    alternative management paradigms).  It may contain information
>    pertaining to nodes with a specific role.
>=20
> To respond to Dimitri's comment, what we had in mind when we came up with
> the notion of "intent" is indeed the Webster definition above. Intent
> defines the "aim or purpose" of the network, rather than individual
> actions to achieve those. Each element receives intent, and takes it as
> the "aim" that the admin has defined for the network. My favourite exampl=
e
> is "this network has guestnet". Which is a general aim. Each network
> element needs to translate this into specific actions that will result in
> the aim stated in intent.
>=20
> We didn't want to re-use the word "policy", because there are plenty of
> policy languages that are setting detailed local variables. "aim or
> purpose of the network" is what we were after.
>=20
> Does this description make sense? Maybe we should then re-phrase the abov=
e
> definition to
>=20
>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy defining the aim or overall
> purpose
>    of the network. (rest unchanged)
>=20
> Is that better? If the above rough description makes sense, how can we
> define it better? Please provide suggestions, happy to incorporate in the
> next version of the definitions draft.
>=20
> Michael


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:53:19 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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Yes. If I was king, the word "policy" would be forbidden in the
IETF, because it has so many possible interpretations.

Regards
   Brian

On 25/08/2014 09:22, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> As "Each network element needs to translate this into specific actions that will result in the aim stated in intent." the mapping (translation) from state to actions is left locally at the node level, which is the most general definition of policy. 
> 
> Hence, in the definition of intent, instead of referring to "high-level policy" you could refer to "high-level objective". This would avoid overloading the term policy and would settle a clearer demarcation line with DMTF/policy-based management models which uses different level of policies (high-/low-level, network/node-specific, etc.).
> 
> Thanks,
> -d.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 PM
>> To: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>> Subject: RE: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
>>> Carpenter
>>> Sent: 22 August 2014 20:28
>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>
>>>> --The exception is what you refer as information needed from "policy
>>> intent" as it still not clear to me in which sense these words are
>>> used: in the common sense a policy is a mapping from state to action
>>> whereas an intent (from Webster) is defined as 'the thing you plan to
>>> do or achieve: an aim or purpose', so do you mean "lookahead policies"
>>> (as considered in model- predictive control, rolling horizon, etc.) or
>>> something else ? note here that the IRTF document mentions "intent: an
>>> abstract high level policy..." thus not sure I would be able to put the
>> pieces altogether.
>>> I think Michael needs to comment on this. It is a question of what we
>>> mean by the word "policy" I guess. In BGP-4 for example, "filter out
>>> all /24s from APNIC space" might be considered an intent but "filter
>>> out 123.123.123.0/24" might be considered a specific policy.
>>> I'm not sure there is anything more subtle than that.
>> For reference, this is what draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-
>> 02 states about intent:
>>
>>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy used to operate the network
>>    autonomically.  Its scope is an autonomic domain, such as an
>>    enterprise network.  It does not contain configuration or information
>>    for a specific node (see Section 3.2 on how intent co-exists with
>>    alternative management paradigms).  It may contain information
>>    pertaining to nodes with a specific role.
>>
>> To respond to Dimitri's comment, what we had in mind when we came up with
>> the notion of "intent" is indeed the Webster definition above. Intent
>> defines the "aim or purpose" of the network, rather than individual
>> actions to achieve those. Each element receives intent, and takes it as
>> the "aim" that the admin has defined for the network. My favourite example
>> is "this network has guestnet". Which is a general aim. Each network
>> element needs to translate this into specific actions that will result in
>> the aim stated in intent.
>>
>> We didn't want to re-use the word "policy", because there are plenty of
>> policy languages that are setting detailed local variables. "aim or
>> purpose of the network" is what we were after.
>>
>> Does this description make sense? Maybe we should then re-phrase the above
>> definition to
>>
>>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy defining the aim or overall
>> purpose
>>    of the network. (rest unchanged)
>>
>> Is that better? If the above rough description makes sense, how can we
>> define it better? Please provide suggestions, happy to incorporate in the
>> next version of the definitions draft.
>>
>> Michael
> 
> 


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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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From nobody Mon Aug 25 02:10:50 2014
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From: Leo Dorrendorf <Leo.Dorrendorf@discretix.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: What we want to achieve - personal view.
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:10:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.
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Hi Michael,

My interest is in security bootstrapping. Since ACE decided they would not =
include it in the current scope, I have been following the discussion here.=
=20

I believe that solving the security bootstrapping problem would be valuable=
 for autonomous networks, especially in the setting of the Internet of Thin=
gs. I also agree with your baseline assumptions - a single security infrast=
ructure can secure all further communications, with little to no admin invo=
lvement.=20

It would be great if Anima addressed these issues.

Best regards,
Leo Dorrendorf

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringer =
(mbehring)
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 11:42 PM
To: anima@ietf.org
Subject: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.

It is fairly clear that the charter isn't good enough yet, we had too many =
comments about this. Can we take a step back, look at the big picture, see =
whether we agree on that level, and THEN dive back down to writing somethin=
g down?=20

Here is how I would phrase it, informally. Train of thought:=20

1) Independent processes: Networks today have a number of processes that ru=
n distributed, and do things on their own. The admin monitors, and takes ca=
re of exceptions, but by and large these processes run on their own in the =
network. (I call that "autonomic", but the term itself has raised discussio=
ns, so let's leave that discussion for later, to stay focused). Examples ar=
e all the IGPs, VRRP, etc.=20

2) Lack of common infrastructure: All those processes run independently of =
each other. Each of them has its own way to communicate, manage policy (if =
applicable), secure itself, etc. This is where I am coming from: I used to =
work in infrastructure security, and the fact that you have to secure each =
protocol independently, each with its own key scheme, algorithms, etc is a =
major pain in operating networks today. This is the security angle, but oth=
er angles exist, for example monitoring, reporting, general policy, etc.=20

The above to me is the problem statement. Why is that a problem that needs =
fixing? Because the operational cost of securing a network is a problem. An=
d when opex is reduced, security suffers. Others may chime in with similar =
stories from their area of expertise, but I think it's a pretty generic iss=
ue.=20

The goal then is:=20

3) Finding common infrastructure: Assume we accept for a moment that the la=
ck of common functions across a network is an issue, can this be simplified=
? Can we define one, simple way to manage for example the key material for =
all the protocols, in one go? We tried to find a solution and came up with =
draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures; that draft describes how t=
o securely bootstrap a key infrastructure, which can then be used to secure=
 ALL protocols through the lifetime of the network (ie not one-off), largel=
y without admin involvement. Again, this is the security angle; I think thi=
s is a use case in itself, but other cases exist.=20

Now, if this work simplifies just a single aspect of networking (such as se=
curity), we'd have made progress, and IMO it would be worthwhile. If we can=
 simplify several components of networking in this way, and if we do this i=
n a coherent way, then we have the potential to really create a largely "se=
lf-managing" network. But frankly, I prefer the bottom up approach, let's t=
ackle one function at a time, small steps. Of course, having an overall goa=
l in mind.=20

Now, does this train of thought make sense at all? Dimitri? Rene? Others? =
=20

Michael

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Mon Aug 25 03:06:19 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: What we want to achieve - personal view.
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Subject: Re: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.
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One could sum'up 1) and 2) by stating processes operate independently on di=
fferent views/partial information and by different means where human/off-li=
ne control compensates for these "limits".
More importantly these processes have been designed to realize objectives w=
hich are sometimes difficult to combine, reconcile, etc. again human/off-li=
ne control compensates for these "limits". This motivates the introduction =
of intent/high level objectives to help sync'ing these processes and coordi=
nate their actions (justifying in turn distribution) such that the sum of e=
xisting "protocols" functionality moves beyond the sum of their individual =
capability.

Finding cases which would benefit from the latter in the "security domain" =
you mention includes anomaly/attack detection, intrusion detection, etc. an=
d related re-configuration. Automation can be motivated by the fact that au=
tomata/programs are more proficient in realizing systematic and exhaustive =
tasks than humans. Adaptation as anomalies and attacks are constantly detec=
ted,  Autonomy as each event has its specifics which translates into differ=
ent local actions and Abstraction to enable coordination between heterogene=
ous equipment. I often refer to the 4A principle (and pretty sure similar c=
an be found). =20

This lead to a key question/alternative when it comes to the realization ch=
allenge of "finding common infrastructure" (this term needs to be somehow r=
evisited as we deal with logic of control/management):=20

i) assuming underlying functionality/protocols already exist, this artifact=
 would be required to ensure the coordination of existing function with the=
 possible addition of sources of information (monitoring, etc.) such as the=
 sum of existing "protocols" functionality moves beyond the sum of their in=
dividual capability to achieve higher level objectives. The main challenge =
becomes then to determine if a layout comprising agents and discovery/negot=
iation/interaction among them would enable achieving this objective.

ii) assuming underlying functionality/protocols don't, there is an architec=
tural question moving well beyond AN, would you incorporate these new funct=
ionality/protocol in the AN framework itself ? this leads to a large list o=
f questions such as how to keep commonality among different functions (as t=
hey are by definition serving different purposes), how to ensure it doesn't=
 yield yet another approach (as basically this leads to consider low level =
objectives as the same level than other protocols do/should do nowadays), h=
ow to ensure that the first type of function that will be considered won't =
drive the whole architecture and make it unusable by others, etc.=20

The whole point is: if the goal is to work from a bottom-up approach, with =
incremental steps it seems advisable to start from cases covering i) before=
 ii) as the questions ii) raises is at least one order of complexity higher=
. One would still have sufficient level of uncertainty to disambiguate to m=
ake the work attractive enough. On the other hand, this could be the mean t=
o trial/consolidate the (ongoing) design on mature/stable functionality bef=
ore moving to the next level of complexity.=20

Thanks,
-d.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringe=
r
> (mbehring)
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.
>=20
> It is fairly clear that the charter isn't good enough yet, we had too man=
y
> comments about this. Can we take a step back, look at the big picture, se=
e
> whether we agree on that level, and THEN dive back down to writing
> something down?
>=20
> Here is how I would phrase it, informally. Train of thought:
>=20
> 1) Independent processes: Networks today have a number of processes that
> run distributed, and do things on their own. The admin monitors, and take=
s
> care of exceptions, but by and large these processes run on their own in
> the network. (I call that "autonomic", but the term itself has raised
> discussions, so let's leave that discussion for later, to stay focused).
> Examples are all the IGPs, VRRP, etc.
>=20
> 2) Lack of common infrastructure: All those processes run independently o=
f
> each other. Each of them has its own way to communicate, manage policy (i=
f
> applicable), secure itself, etc. This is where I am coming from: I used t=
o
> work in infrastructure security, and the fact that you have to secure eac=
h
> protocol independently, each with its own key scheme, algorithms, etc is =
a
> major pain in operating networks today. This is the security angle, but
> other angles exist, for example monitoring, reporting, general policy,
> etc.
>=20
> The above to me is the problem statement. Why is that a problem that need=
s
> fixing? Because the operational cost of securing a network is a problem.
> And when opex is reduced, security suffers. Others may chime in with
> similar stories from their area of expertise, but I think it's a pretty
> generic issue.
>=20
> The goal then is:
>=20
> 3) Finding common infrastructure: Assume we accept for a moment that the
> lack of common functions across a network is an issue, can this be
> simplified? Can we define one, simple way to manage for example the key
> material for all the protocols, in one go? We tried to find a solution an=
d
> came up with draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures; that draft
> describes how to securely bootstrap a key infrastructure, which can then
> be used to secure ALL protocols through the lifetime of the network (ie
> not one-off), largely without admin involvement. Again, this is the
> security angle; I think this is a use case in itself, but other cases
> exist.
>=20
> Now, if this work simplifies just a single aspect of networking (such as
> security), we'd have made progress, and IMO it would be worthwhile. If we
> can simplify several components of networking in this way, and if we do
> this in a coherent way, then we have the potential to really create a
> largely "self-managing" network. But frankly, I prefer the bottom up
> approach, let's tackle one function at a time, small steps. Of course,
> having an overall goal in mind.
>=20
> Now, does this train of thought make sense at all? Dimitri? Rene? Others?
>=20
> Michael
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, "Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com)" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "Laurent Ciavaglia" <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA Call
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--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2370Cxmbrcdx14ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT.

The call will be recorded, and the "note well" applies.

Michael
******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
JOIN USING WebEx

Go To:
https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dm97e167525707c48da4999c3dad35066=
1

Meeting Password ----- anima
Meeting Number ----- 204 056 478

----------------------------------------------------------------
ALERT - PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITHIN THE (408=
) OR (919) AREA CODES
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:
-  San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:  525-6800
-  RTP (919) area:  392-3330

Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes is no=
t enabled (non-Cisco phones).  " If you dial the toll-free numbers within t=
he 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up and dial the loc=
al access number." Please use the call-back option whenever possible and ot=
herwise dial local numbers only.  The affected toll free numbers are: (866)=
 432-9903 for the San Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP are=
a.

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the teleconference only
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html
2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Access =
Code followed by the # sign.

San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800  RTP: +1.919.392.3330

US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903  United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117

India: +91.80.4350.1111  Germany: +49.619.6773.9002

Japan: +81.3.5763.9394  China: +86.10.8515.5666

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio a=
nd any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session=
 to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such=
 recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns =
with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join th=
e session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery=
 in the event of litigation.

http://www.webex.com



--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2370Cxmbrcdx14ciscoc_
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Exchange Server">
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<body>
<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div>This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The call will be recorded, and the &#8220;note well&#8221; applies. </=
div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Michael</div>
<div>*<a name=3D"WBX7A727"></a>****** DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TE=
XT BELOW THIS LINE *******</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-</div>
<div>JOIN USING WebEx</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Go To:</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dm97e167525707c48=
da4999c3dad350661"><font color=3D"blue"><u>https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.=
php?MTID=3Dm97e167525707c48da4999c3dad350661</u></font></a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Meeting Password ----- anima</div>
<div>Meeting Number ----- 204 056 478</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>ALERT &#8211; PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITH=
IN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:=
</div>
<div>-&nbsp; San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:&nbsp; 525-6800</div>
<div>-&nbsp; RTP (919) area:&nbsp; 392-3330</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes =
is not enabled (non-Cisco phones).&nbsp; &#8220; If you dial the toll-free =
numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up =
and dial the local access number.&#8221; Please use
the call-back option whenever possible and otherwise dial local numbers onl=
y.&nbsp; The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jos=
e/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>To join the teleconference only </div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at </div>
<div><a href=3D"http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/in=
dex.html"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_busine=
ss/conferencing/index.html</u></font></a> </div>
<div>2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Ac=
cess Code followed by the # sign. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>San Jose, CA: &#43;1.408.525.6800&nbsp; RTP: &#43;1.919.392.3330 </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>US/Canada: &#43;1.866.432.9903&nbsp; United Kingdom: &#43;44.20.8824.0=
117 </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>India: &#43;91.80.4350.1111&nbsp; Germany: &#43;49.619.6773.9002 </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Japan: &#43;81.3.5763.9394&nbsp; China: &#43;86.10.8515.5666</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows au=
dio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the se=
ssion to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to=
 such recordings. If you do not
consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior=
 to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that=
 any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation=
.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://www.webex.com"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://www.we=
bex.com</u></font></a> </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Mon Aug 25 05:11:49 2014
Return-Path: <mbehring@cisco.com>
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:11:44 +0000
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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From nobody Mon Aug 25 06:31:13 2014
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 06:31:07 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.
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Thanks Dimitri,

Your thoughts are very much appreciated. I am new to the challenge of creating
a WG in the ops area. Do you have prior experience ? How would you suggest to
translate your considerations into charter text modifications ? 

Cheers
    Toerless

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:06:09AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> One could sum'up 1) and 2) by stating processes operate independently on different views/partial information and by different means where human/off-line control compensates for these "limits".
> More importantly these processes have been designed to realize objectives which are sometimes difficult to combine, reconcile, etc. again human/off-line control compensates for these "limits". This motivates the introduction of intent/high level objectives to help sync'ing these processes and coordinate their actions (justifying in turn distribution) such that the sum of existing "protocols" functionality moves beyond the sum of their individual capability.
> 
> Finding cases which would benefit from the latter in the "security domain" you mention includes anomaly/attack detection, intrusion detection, etc. and related re-configuration. Automation can be motivated by the fact that automata/programs are more proficient in realizing systematic and exhaustive tasks than humans. Adaptation as anomalies and attacks are constantly detected,  Autonomy as each event has its specifics which translates into different local actions and Abstraction to enable coordination between heterogeneous equipment. I often refer to the 4A principle (and pretty sure similar can be found).  
> 
> This lead to a key question/alternative when it comes to the realization challenge of "finding common infrastructure" (this term needs to be somehow revisited as we deal with logic of control/management): 
> 
> i) assuming underlying functionality/protocols already exist, this artifact would be required to ensure the coordination of existing function with the possible addition of sources of information (monitoring, etc.) such as the sum of existing "protocols" functionality moves beyond the sum of their individual capability to achieve higher level objectives. The main challenge becomes then to determine if a layout comprising agents and discovery/negotiation/interaction among them would enable achieving this objective.
> 
> ii) assuming underlying functionality/protocols don't, there is an architectural question moving well beyond AN, would you incorporate these new functionality/protocol in the AN framework itself ? this leads to a large list of questions such as how to keep commonality among different functions (as they are by definition serving different purposes), how to ensure it doesn't yield yet another approach (as basically this leads to consider low level objectives as the same level than other protocols do/should do nowadays), how to ensure that the first type of function that will be considered won't drive the whole architecture and make it unusable by others, etc. 
> 
> The whole point is: if the goal is to work from a bottom-up approach, with incremental steps it seems advisable to start from cases covering i) before ii) as the questions ii) raises is at least one order of complexity higher. One would still have sufficient level of uncertainty to disambiguate to make the work attractive enough. On the other hand, this could be the mean to trial/consolidate the (ongoing) design on mature/stable functionality before moving to the next level of complexity. 
> 
> Thanks,
> -d.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringer
> > (mbehring)
> > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 PM
> > To: anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.
> > 
> > It is fairly clear that the charter isn't good enough yet, we had too many
> > comments about this. Can we take a step back, look at the big picture, see
> > whether we agree on that level, and THEN dive back down to writing
> > something down?
> > 
> > Here is how I would phrase it, informally. Train of thought:
> > 
> > 1) Independent processes: Networks today have a number of processes that
> > run distributed, and do things on their own. The admin monitors, and takes
> > care of exceptions, but by and large these processes run on their own in
> > the network. (I call that "autonomic", but the term itself has raised
> > discussions, so let's leave that discussion for later, to stay focused).
> > Examples are all the IGPs, VRRP, etc.
> > 
> > 2) Lack of common infrastructure: All those processes run independently of
> > each other. Each of them has its own way to communicate, manage policy (if
> > applicable), secure itself, etc. This is where I am coming from: I used to
> > work in infrastructure security, and the fact that you have to secure each
> > protocol independently, each with its own key scheme, algorithms, etc is a
> > major pain in operating networks today. This is the security angle, but
> > other angles exist, for example monitoring, reporting, general policy,
> > etc.
> > 
> > The above to me is the problem statement. Why is that a problem that needs
> > fixing? Because the operational cost of securing a network is a problem.
> > And when opex is reduced, security suffers. Others may chime in with
> > similar stories from their area of expertise, but I think it's a pretty
> > generic issue.
> > 
> > The goal then is:
> > 
> > 3) Finding common infrastructure: Assume we accept for a moment that the
> > lack of common functions across a network is an issue, can this be
> > simplified? Can we define one, simple way to manage for example the key
> > material for all the protocols, in one go? We tried to find a solution and
> > came up with draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures; that draft
> > describes how to securely bootstrap a key infrastructure, which can then
> > be used to secure ALL protocols through the lifetime of the network (ie
> > not one-off), largely without admin involvement. Again, this is the
> > security angle; I think this is a use case in itself, but other cases
> > exist.
> > 
> > Now, if this work simplifies just a single aspect of networking (such as
> > security), we'd have made progress, and IMO it would be worthwhile. If we
> > can simplify several components of networking in this way, and if we do
> > this in a coherent way, then we have the potential to really create a
> > largely "self-managing" network. But frankly, I prefer the bottom up
> > approach, let's tackle one function at a time, small steps. Of course,
> > having an overall goal in mind.
> > 
> > Now, does this train of thought make sense at all? Dimitri? Rene? Others?
> > 
> > Michael
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:34:06 -0400
From: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
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To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>,  "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>,  "Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com)" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>,  Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA Call
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Hi Michael:

With regret I have to send this email and object to the time scheduling 
of conference calls.

It is very well possible to organize calls that (in)convenience 
participants from various parts of the globe in a more equitable way.

Now, you give the impression that a side objective of calls is to 
minimize participation of North American participants, which I am sure 
is not your intention.

Call time history:
-Thu Aug 14th: 2am EDT
-Thu Aug 21st: 10am EDT
-Thu Aug 28th: 4am EDT = 1am PDT = (suggested time)

Please see my earlier note on this, 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00113.html.

One has to be equitable.

Best regards, Rene

On 8/25/2014 7:56 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT.
> The call will be recorded, and the "note well" applies.
> Michael
> ******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> JOIN USING WebEx
> Go To:
> _https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m97e167525707c48da4999c3dad350661_
> Meeting Password ----- anima
> Meeting Number ----- 204 056 478
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> ALERT -- PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITHIN 
> THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:
> -  San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:  525-6800
> -  RTP (919) area:  392-3330
> Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes 
> is not enabled (non-Cisco phones).  " If you dial the toll-free 
> numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to 
> hang up and dial the local access number." Please use the call-back 
> option whenever possible and otherwise dial local numbers only.  The 
> affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San 
> Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> To join the teleconference only
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
> _http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html_
> 2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or 
> Access Code followed by the # sign.
> San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800  RTP: +1.919.392.3330
> US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903  United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117
> India: +91.80.4350.1111  Germany: +49.619.6773.9002
> Japan: +81.3.5763.9394  China: +86.10.8515.5666
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows 
> audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during 
> the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically 
> consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, 
> discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the 
> recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such 
> recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation.
> _http://www.webex.com_
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


--------------040403050905080301070603
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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Michael:<br>
      <br>
      With regret I have to send this email and object to the time
      scheduling of conference calls. <br>
      <br>
      It is very well possible to organize calls that (in)convenience
      participants from various parts of the globe in a more equitable
      way. <br>
      <br>
      Now, you give the impression that a side objective of calls is to
      minimize participation of North American participants, which I am
      sure is not your intention.<br>
      <br>
      Call time history:<br>
      -Thu Aug 14th: 2am EDT<br>
      -Thu Aug 21st: 10am EDT<br>
      -Thu Aug 28th: 4am EDT = 1am PDT = (suggested time)<br>
      <br>
      Please see my earlier note on this,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00113.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00113.html</a>.<br>
      <br>
      One has to be equitable.<br>
      <br>
      Best regards, Rene<br>
      <br>
      On 8/25/2014 7:56 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2370C@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Exchange Server">
      <!-- converted from rtf -->
      <style><!-- .EmailQuote { margin-left: 1pt; padding-left: 4pt; border-left: #800000 2px solid; } --></style>
      <font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT.
          </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>The call will be recorded, and the &#8220;note well&#8221; applies. </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Michael</div>
          <div>*<a moz-do-not-send="true" name="WBX7A727"></a>****** DO
            NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>-----------------------------------------------------------------------</div>
          <div>JOIN USING WebEx</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Go To:</div>
          <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m97e167525707c48da4999c3dad350661"><font
                color="blue"><u>https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m97e167525707c48da4999c3dad350661</u></font></a></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Meeting Password ----- anima</div>
          <div>Meeting Number ----- 204 056 478</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
          <div>ALERT &#8211; PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS
            FROM WITHIN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES</div>
          <div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
          <div>Please dial the local access number for your area from
            the list below:</div>
          <div>-&nbsp; San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:&nbsp; 525-6800</div>
          <div>-&nbsp; RTP (919) area:&nbsp; 392-3330</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or
            919 area codes is not enabled (non-Cisco phones).&nbsp; &#8220; If you
            dial the toll-free numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes
            you will be instructed to hang up and dial the local access
            number.&#8221; Please use
            the call-back option whenever possible and otherwise dial
            local numbers only.&nbsp; The affected toll free numbers are:
            (866) 432-9903 for the San Jose/Milpitas area and (866)
            349-3520 for the RTP area.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
          <div>To join the teleconference only </div>
          <div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
          <div>1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers
            at </div>
          <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html"><font
                color="blue"><u>http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html</u></font></a>
          </div>
          <div>2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed
            above) or Access Code followed by the # sign. </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800&nbsp; RTP: +1.919.392.3330 </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903&nbsp; United Kingdom:
            +44.20.8824.0117 </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>India: +91.80.4350.1111&nbsp; Germany: +49.619.6773.9002 </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Japan: +81.3.5763.9394&nbsp; China: +86.10.8515.5666</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature
            that allows audio and any documents and other materials
            exchanged or viewed during the session to be recorded. By
            joining this session, you automatically consent to such
            recordings. If you do not
            consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the
            meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not
            join the session. Please note that any such recordings may
            be subject to discovery in the event of litigation.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.webex.com"><font
                color="blue"><u>http://www.webex.com</u></font></a> </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
        </span></font>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com">rstruik.ext@gmail.com</a> | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Dimitri,

Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call monitoring/reporting
use cases (as you wrote below):

AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information from the network,
and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sure what aspects are covered
where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of (IETF) gaps in operationalizing comprehensive
solutions. But i wonder how we would best justify of taking on that work in Anima:

It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/"SDN" solution,
with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using methods like NETFLIX and
others. And potentially having a hierarchy of such controllers/agents do do aggregation,
and incremental stages of pre-analytics.

To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarchy of
information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to autonomously
orchestrate the active components in that model - hopefully as agents inside
the network. But without some pre-existing model, i think we would have to
do a lot more work in Anima than just those autonomic aspects - we might need
to come up with the model first. A model that maybe better is defined first
non-autonomic by a better group of experts in that subjet matter ?

Cheers
    Toerless

On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion: 
> 
> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
> 
> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing adjacencies or others.
> 
> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure 
> 
> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that an alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in propagation of routing information.
> 
> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured and estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
> 


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, "Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com)" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "Laurent Ciavaglia" <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA Call
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:13:11 +0000
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Cc: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>, "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA Call
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[Apologies, I accidentally scheduled the call for 25 hours ;-)  ]

This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT.

The call will be recorded, and the "note well" applies.

Michael
******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
JOIN USING WebEx

Go To:
https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dm97e167525707c48da4999c3dad35066=
1

Meeting Password ----- anima
Meeting Number ----- 204 056 478

----------------------------------------------------------------
ALERT - PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITHIN THE (408=
) OR (919) AREA CODES
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:
-  San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:  525-6800
-  RTP (919) area:  392-3330

Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes is no=
t enabled (non-Cisco phones).  " If you dial the toll-free numbers within t=
he 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up and dial the loc=
al access number." Please use the call-back option whenever possible and ot=
herwise dial local numbers only.  The affected toll free numbers are: (866)=
 432-9903 for the San Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP are=
a.

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the teleconference only
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html
2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Access =
Code followed by the # sign.

San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800  RTP: +1.919.392.3330

US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903  United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117

India: +91.80.4350.1111  Germany: +49.619.6773.9002

Japan: +81.3.5763.9394  China: +86.10.8515.5666

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio a=
nd any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session=
 to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such=
 recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns =
with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join th=
e session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery=
 in the event of litigation.

http://www.webex.com







--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C23A89xmbrcdx14ciscoc_
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<html>
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Exchange Server">
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</head>
<body>
<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div>[Apologies, I accidentally scheduled the call for 25 hours ;-)&nbsp; ]=
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The call will be recorded, and the &#8220;note well&#8221; applies. </=
div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Michael</div>
<div>*<a name=3D"WBXF0A92"></a>****** DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TE=
XT BELOW THIS LINE *******</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-</div>
<div>JOIN USING WebEx</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Go To:</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dm97e167525707c48=
da4999c3dad350661"><font color=3D"blue"><u>https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.=
php?MTID=3Dm97e167525707c48da4999c3dad350661</u></font></a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Meeting Password ----- anima</div>
<div>Meeting Number ----- 204 056 478</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>ALERT &#8211; PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITH=
IN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:=
</div>
<div>-&nbsp; San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:&nbsp; 525-6800</div>
<div>-&nbsp; RTP (919) area:&nbsp; 392-3330</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes =
is not enabled (non-Cisco phones).&nbsp; &#8220; If you dial the toll-free =
numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up =
and dial the local access number.&#8221; Please use
the call-back option whenever possible and otherwise dial local numbers onl=
y.&nbsp; The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jos=
e/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>To join the teleconference only </div>
<div>------------------------------------------------------- </div>
<div>1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at </div>
<div><a href=3D"http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/in=
dex.html"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_busine=
ss/conferencing/index.html</u></font></a> </div>
<div>2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Ac=
cess Code followed by the # sign. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>San Jose, CA: &#43;1.408.525.6800&nbsp; RTP: &#43;1.919.392.3330 </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>US/Canada: &#43;1.866.432.9903&nbsp; United Kingdom: &#43;44.20.8824.0=
117 </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>India: &#43;91.80.4350.1111&nbsp; Germany: &#43;49.619.6773.9002 </div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Japan: &#43;81.3.5763.9394&nbsp; China: &#43;86.10.8515.5666</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows au=
dio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the se=
ssion to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to=
 such recordings. If you do not
consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior=
 to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that=
 any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation=
.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://www.webex.com"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://www.we=
bex.com</u></font></a> </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, "Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com)" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA Call
Thread-Index: Ac/AWzH6a/rYwu1ESC2pYMpWTApkiAAAHnBAAA/3MwAACQReUA==
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:48:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA Call
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No, Rene, you are right, it is NOT our intention to schedule calls so that =
North Americans can't join.

Here is my understanding on how this happened:

-          originally, we scheduled the calls at 0600 GMT.

-          Some US based folks complained

-          Now, we decided to alternate, one 0600 GMT, and one at 1400 GMT =
(which was your proposal, see your mail). The idea was that nobody is perma=
nently disadvantaged.

Frankly, I thought we had agreed on that, and everyone realised that every =
other call would be hard for him?

Given that we have key participants in China and New Zealand, I don't see a=
 better approach. What do you suggest?

Michael



From: Rene Struik [mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com]
Sent: 25 August 2014 07:34
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org; Toerless Eckert (eckert);=
 Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com); Sheng Jiang; Laurent Ciav=
aglia
Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA Call

Hi Michael:

With regret I have to send this email and object to the time scheduling of =
conference calls.

It is very well possible to organize calls that (in)convenience participant=
s from various parts of the globe in a more equitable way.

Now, you give the impression that a side objective of calls is to minimize =
participation of North American participants, which I am sure is not your i=
ntention.

Call time history:
-Thu Aug 14th: 2am EDT
-Thu Aug 21st: 10am EDT
-Thu Aug 28th: 4am EDT =3D 1am PDT =3D (suggested time)

Please see my earlier note on this, http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/an=
ima/current/msg00113.html.

One has to be equitable.

Best regards, Rene

On 8/25/2014 7:56 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT.

The call will be recorded, and the "note well" applies.

Michael
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">No, Rene, you are right, it is NOT our intention=
 to schedule calls so that North Americans can&#8217;t join.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Here is my understanding on how this happened:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Ca=
libri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<font si=
ze=3D"1" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f4=
97d" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">originally, we scheduled t=
he calls at 0600 GMT.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Ca=
libri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<font si=
ze=3D"1" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f4=
97d" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Some US based folks compla=
ined<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Ca=
libri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<font si=
ze=3D"1" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f4=
97d" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Now, we decided to alterna=
te, one 0600 GMT, and one at 1400 GMT (which was your proposal,
 see your mail). The idea was that nobody is permanently disadvantaged. <o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Frankly, I thought we had agreed on that, and ev=
eryone realised that every other call would be hard for him?
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Given that we have key participants in China and=
 New Zealand, I don&#8217;t see a better approach. What do you suggest?
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Michael<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold">From:</span></=
font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;;color:windowtext">
 Rene Struik [mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> 25 August 2014 07:34<b=
r>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Michael Behringer (mbehr=
ing); anima@ietf.org; Toerless Eckert (eckert); Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.=
carpenter@gmail.com); Sheng Jiang; Laurent Ciavaglia<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Anima] ANIMA C=
all<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi Michael:<br>
<br>
With regret I have to send this email and object to the time scheduling of =
conference calls.
<br>
<br>
It is very well possible to organize calls that (in)convenience participant=
s from various parts of the globe in a more equitable way.
<br>
<br>
Now, you give the impression that a side objective of calls is to minimize =
participation of North American participants, which I am sure is not your i=
ntention.<br>
<br>
Call time history:<br>
-Thu Aug 14th: 2am EDT<br>
-Thu Aug 21st: 10am EDT<br>
-Thu Aug 28th: 4am EDT =3D 1am PDT =3D (suggested time)<br>
<br>
Please see my earlier note on this, <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arc=
hive/web/anima/current/msg00113.html">
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00113.html</a>.<br>
<br>
One has to be equitable.<br>
<br>
Best regards, Rene<br>
<br>
On 8/25/2014 7:56 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<o:p></o:p></span>=
</font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">The call will be recorded, and the &#8220;note well&#8221; appli=
es.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">Michael<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">*<a name=3D"WBX7A727"></a>****** DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF =
THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">----------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">JOIN USING WebEx<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">Go To:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;"><a href=3D"https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dm97e167525=
707c48da4999c3dad350661">https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dm97e167=
525707c48da4999c3dad350661</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">Meeting Password ----- anima<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">Meeting Number ----- 204 056 478<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">----------------------------------------------------------------=
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">ALERT &#8211; PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FRO=
M WITHIN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">----------------------------------------------------------------=
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">Please dial the local access number for your area from the list =
below:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">-&nbsp; San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:&nbsp; 525-6800<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">-&nbsp; RTP (919) area:&nbsp; 392-3330<o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area =
codes is not enabled (non-Cisco phones).&nbsp; &#8220; If you dial the toll=
-free
 numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up=
 and dial the local access number.&#8221; Please use the call-back option w=
henever possible and otherwise dial local numbers only.&nbsp; The affected =
toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the
 San Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">-------------------------------------------------------
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">To join the teleconference only
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">-------------------------------------------------------
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferenc=
ing/index.html">http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/in=
dex.html</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above)=
 or Access Code followed by the # sign.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">San Jose, CA: &#43;1.408.525.6800&nbsp; RTP: &#43;1.919.392.3330
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">US/Canada: &#43;1.866.432.9903&nbsp; United Kingdom: &#43;44.20.=
8824.0117
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">India: &#43;91.80.4350.1111&nbsp; Germany: &#43;49.619.6773.9002
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">Japan: &#43;81.3.5763.9394&nbsp; China: &#43;86.10.8515.5666<o:p=
></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that all=
ows audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed
 during the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatica=
lly consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, dis=
cuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the recordin=
g or do not join the session. Please
 note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of =
litigation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Calibri"><s=
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<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Anima mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
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oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
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<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
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From nobody Mon Aug 25 09:24:29 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:10:45 +0000
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF0ED7B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234402DF@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20140825150711.GB21774@cisco.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Toerless,

The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cross-=
information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitoring=
, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve what c=
an't be derived out of individual protocol information that subsequently en=
ables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of these act=
ions is part of the execution.=20

I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. information out of=
 traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in addition to source of information p=
rovided/exchanged by current protocols (note: there are use cases that can =
limit their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA would have to wo=
rk on metrology and related infrastructure, one can rely on existing source=
s, feeders, etc.=20

The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a "client" of suc=
h information but can't be client of close-loop state derivation and consis=
tent state to action mapping because this is what AN is all about).

Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which would need cla=
rification in the charter-- is that it misses (referring to my previous ema=
il on the AN dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms of rea=
lization it assumes as prerequisite the transformation and homogeneization =
of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the gain in operati=
onal/control logic while minimizing the infrastructure change (SDN looks al=
l the contrary to me).

Thanks,
-d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:07 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for
> charter)
>=20
> Dimitri,
>=20
> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call
> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below):
>=20
> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information from the
> network, and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sure what
> aspects are covered where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of (IETF)
> gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wonder how we
> would best justify of taking on that work in Anima:
>=20
> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/"SDN"
> solution, with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using method=
s
> like NETFLIX and others. And potentially having a hierarchy of such
> controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental stages of pre-
> analytics.
>=20
> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarchy of
> information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to
> autonomously orchestrate the active components in that model - hopefully
> as agents inside the network. But without some pre-existing model, i thin=
k
> we would have to do a lot more work in Anima than just those autonomic
> aspects - we might need to come up with the model first. A model that
> maybe better is defined first non-autonomic by a better group of experts
> in that subjet matter ?
>=20
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>=20
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri=
)
> wrote:
> > o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
> >
> > - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing
> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would
> help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
> >
> > - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic ou=
t
> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing
> adjacencies or others.
> >
> > - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
> >
> > - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that
> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that an
> alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in propagatio=
n
> of routing information.
> >
> > - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by
> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured an=
d
> estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
> >


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:38:02 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Message-ID: <20140825163802.GC21774@cisco.com>
References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF0ED7B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234402DF@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20140825150711.GB21774@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344228E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Thanks, Dimitri,

Whats the most simple actual autonomous implementation instance
of the chain you imagine ? One that solves an actual use-case ?

Your remark about SDN requring more infrastructure changes than AN is interesting,
i wish it was true, but i am not so sure. I have a seen significant SDN work that
very pragmatically leverages existing CLI into network devices to build next-gen
central orchestration in the NOC, and only in parallel will new protocols
(eg: Netconf/RESTconf) and data models be defined to provide product/vendor
independent interfaces.

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 04:10:45PM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Toerless,
> 
> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subsequently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of these actions is part of the execution. 
> 
> I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. information out of traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in addition to source of information provided/exchanged by current protocols (note: there are use cases that can limit their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA would have to work on metrology and related infrastructure, one can rely on existing sources, feeders, etc. 
> 
> The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a "client" of such information but can't be client of close-loop state derivation and consistent state to action mapping because this is what AN is all about).
> 
> Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which would need clarification in the charter-- is that it misses (referring to my previous email on the AN dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms of realization it assumes as prerequisite the transformation and homogeneization of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the gain in operational/control logic while minimizing the infrastructure change (SDN looks all the contrary to me).
> 
> Thanks,
> -d.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:07 PM
> > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> > Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for
> > charter)
> > 
> > Dimitri,
> > 
> > Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call
> > monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below):
> > 
> > AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information from the
> > network, and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sure what
> > aspects are covered where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of (IETF)
> > gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wonder how we
> > would best justify of taking on that work in Anima:
> > 
> > It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/"SDN"
> > solution, with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using methods
> > like NETFLIX and others. And potentially having a hierarchy of such
> > controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental stages of pre-
> > analytics.
> > 
> > To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarchy of
> > information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to
> > autonomously orchestrate the active components in that model - hopefully
> > as agents inside the network. But without some pre-existing model, i think
> > we would have to do a lot more work in Anima than just those autonomic
> > aspects - we might need to come up with the model first. A model that
> > maybe better is defined first non-autonomic by a better group of experts
> > in that subjet matter ?
> > 
> > Cheers
> >     Toerless
> > 
> > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> > wrote:
> > > o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
> > >
> > > - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
> > configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing
> > decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would
> > help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
> > >
> > > - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out
> > of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing
> > adjacencies or others.
> > >
> > > - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
> > >
> > > - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
> > information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that
> > protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that an
> > alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in propagation
> > of routing information.
> > >
> > > - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process by
> > which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured and
> > estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
> > >

-- 
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com
Cisco NSSTG Systems & Technology Architecture
SDN: Let me play with the network, mommy!


From nobody Mon Aug 25 17:33:27 2014
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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:33:20 +1200
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Cc: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases
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Dimitri,

On 26/08/2014 04:10, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Toerless,
> 
> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual
> states via cross-information processing from multiple sources
> (e.g., traffic/flow monitoring, protocol information bases,
> etc.) This is critical step to achieve what can't be derived
> out of individual protocol information that subsequently
> enables mapping/translating states to actions. The
> orchestration of these actions is part of the execution.

Yes, but that process isn't going to be specified by the IETF,
is it? It's internal to the implementation of a single AN
service agent, and that's where there is scope for
implementations to be different and to compete.

In the IETF we have to focus on the external interactions of the
nodes involved in the AN.

> 
> I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g.
> information out of traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in
> addition to source of information provided/exchanged by
> current protocols (note: there are use cases that can limit
> their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA would
> have to work on metrology and related infrastructure, one can
> rely on existing sources, feeders, etc.

Indeed - just as we will rely on existing north-south management
protocols when they can do the job.

> The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a
> "client" of such information but can't be client of
> close-loop state derivation and consistent state to action
> mapping because this is what AN is all about).

Agreed. But the protocol that mediates the closed loop when more
 than one node is part of the loop is surely our business.

> Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which
> would need clarification in the charter-- is that it misses
> (referring to my previous email on the AN dimensions):
> "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms of realization it
> assumes as prerequisite the transformation and
> homogeneization of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at
> maximizing the gain in operational/control logic while
> minimizing the infrastructure change (SDN looks all the
> contrary to me).

Well yes, but since we live in the real world we can't exclude
cases where, for example, an AN service agent might also be the
SDN controller for a certain domain. (I agree with you about
SDN, by the way, but it is part of the landscape.)

    Brian

> 
> Thanks, -d.
>> -----Original Message----- From: Toerless Eckert
>> [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014
>> 5:07 PM To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) Cc: Sheng
>> Jiang; anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use
>> cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
>> 
>> Dimitri,
>> 
>> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call 
>> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below):
>> 
>> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance
>> information from the network, and doing aggrgation and
>> analytics on it. I am not sure what aspects are covered
>> where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of (IETF) gaps in
>> operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wonder how
>> we would best justify of taking on that work in Anima:
>> 
>> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an
>> overlay/"SDN" solution, with controller(s) pulling in the
>> information, eg: using methods like NETFLIX and others. And
>> potentially having a hierarchy of such controllers/agents
>> do do aggregation, and incremental stages of pre- 
>> analytics.
>> 
>> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that
>> hierarchy of information gasthering, analytics/agregation,
>> but rather how to autonomously orchestrate the active
>> components in that model - hopefully as agents inside the
>> network. But without some pre-existing model, i think we
>> would have to do a lot more work in Anima than just those
>> autonomic aspects - we might need to come up with the model
>> first. A model that maybe better is defined first
>> non-autonomic by a better group of experts in that subjet
>> matter ?
>> 
>> Cheers Toerless
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou,
>> Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include
>>> in my opinion:
>>> 
>>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring
>>> probes
>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the
>> routing decision (and it would be interesting to confront
>> how autonomics would help automating/adapting such task
>> with current practices).
>>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection
>>> (diagnostic out
>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring
>> ACL, routing adjacencies or others.
>>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of
>>> routing/topological
>> information analysis, the output of such process should
>> prevent that protecting routing path fail together with
>> their primary path or that an alternate path fails right
>> after its selection due to delay in propagation of routing
>> information.
>>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a
>>> simple process by
>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could
>> be measured and estimated in order to anticipate possible
>> effects out of outages.
> 
> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing
> list Anima@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima .
> 


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On 26/08/2014 03:48, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> No, Rene, you are right, it is NOT our intention to schedule calls so that North Americans can't join.
> 
> Here is my understanding on how this happened:
> 
> -          originally, we scheduled the calls at 0600 GMT.
> 
> -          Some US based folks complained
> 
> -          Now, we decided to alternate, one 0600 GMT, and one at 1400 GMT (which was your proposal, see your mail). The idea was that nobody is permanently disadvantaged.

That is correct. So the 2nd call was at 2 a.m. for me and I
missed it. I hope to be on the 3rd one.

   Brian

> Frankly, I thought we had agreed on that, and everyone realised that every other call would be hard for him?
> 
> Given that we have key participants in China and New Zealand, I don't see a better approach. What do you suggest?
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> From: Rene Struik [mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com]
> Sent: 25 August 2014 07:34
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org; Toerless Eckert (eckert); Brian E Carpenter (brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com); Sheng Jiang; Laurent Ciavaglia
> Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA Call
> 
> Hi Michael:
> 
> With regret I have to send this email and object to the time scheduling of conference calls.
> 
> It is very well possible to organize calls that (in)convenience participants from various parts of the globe in a more equitable way.
> 
> Now, you give the impression that a side objective of calls is to minimize participation of North American participants, which I am sure is not your intention.
> 
> Call time history:
> -Thu Aug 14th: 2am EDT
> -Thu Aug 21st: 10am EDT
> -Thu Aug 28th: 4am EDT = 1am PDT = (suggested time)
> 
> Please see my earlier note on this, http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00113.html.
> 
> One has to be equitable.
> 
> Best regards, Rene
> 
> On 8/25/2014 7:56 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> This is the next AMINA call, this time again at 6am GMT.
> 
> The call will be recorded, and the "note well" applies.
> 
> Michael
> ******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE *******
> 
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> 
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Anima mailing list
> 
> Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
> 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com<mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com> | Skype: rstruik
> 
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Hi Dimitri and all,

>The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cross=
-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitorin=
g, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve what =
can't be derived out of individual protocol information that
> subsequently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestra=
tion of these actions is part of the execution.

Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement segment=
 (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurement. Then=
 analytics and filtration from this information is needed to enable the pol=
icy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the QoS. The orches=
tration of these processing is important for the monitoring use cases.

BR
Yu

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Papadimitriou, Dim=
itri (Dimitri)
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:11 AM
To: Toerless Eckert
Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charte=
r)

Toerless,

The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cross-=
information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitoring=
, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve what c=
an't be derived out of individual protocol information that subsequently en=
ables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of these act=
ions is part of the execution.

I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. information out of=
 traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in addition to source of information p=
rovided/exchanged by current protocols (note: there are use cases that can =
limit their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA would have to wo=
rk on metrology and related infrastructure, one can rely on existing source=
s, feeders, etc.

The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a "client" of suc=
h information but can't be client of close-loop state derivation and consis=
tent state to action mapping because this is what AN is all about).

Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which would need cla=
rification in the charter-- is that it misses (referring to my previous ema=
il on the AN dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms of rea=
lization it assumes as prerequisite the transformation and homogeneization =
of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the gain in operati=
onal/control logic while minimizing the infrastructure change (SDN looks al=
l the contrary to me).

Thanks,
-d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:07 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for
> charter)
>
> Dimitri,
>
> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call
> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below):
>
> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information from
> the network, and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sure
> what aspects are covered where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of
> (IETF) gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wonder
> how we would best justify of taking on that work in Anima:
>
> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/"SDN"
> solution, with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using
> methods like NETFLIX and others. And potentially having a hierarchy of
> such controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental stages of
> pre- analytics.
>
> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarchy
> of information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to
> autonomously orchestrate the active components in that model -
> hopefully as agents inside the network. But without some pre-existing
> model, i think we would have to do a lot more work in Anima than just
> those autonomic aspects - we might need to come up with the model
> first. A model that maybe better is defined first non-autonomic by a
> better group of experts in that subjet matter ?
>
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri
> (Dimitri)
> wrote:
> > o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
> >
> > - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing
> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would
> help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
> >
> > - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic
> > out
> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL,
> routing adjacencies or others.
> >
> > - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
> >
> > - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that
> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that
> an alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in
> propagation of routing information.
> >
> > - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process
> > by
> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured
> and estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
> >

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>, Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Monitoring use cases
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF0ED7B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234402DF@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20140825150711.GB21774@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344228E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <53FBD5D0.50008@gmail.com>
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Cc: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A9ferson_Campos_Nobre?= <jcnobre@inf.ufrgs.br>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
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Cc: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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http://www.inf.ufrgs.br/~jcnobre
I don't think that changing the term will solve this "policy issue".
I suppose many people that will read the anima charter will think of
policies even if the specific word is not present.
Cheers.

Jeferson

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
<mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
> We could change "high-level policy" to "high-level objective". If everybody feels like it, let's do it.
>
> I'm still slightly (!) hesitant, because it *is* a form of policy, as you state yourself in your first paragraph, Dimitri. And in an informal sense people understand what policy means.
>
> But if the rough consensus is "high level objective", I'll change it.
>
> Any last opinions?
> Michael
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 24 August 2014 15:53
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> Cc: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>
>> Yes. If I was king, the word "policy" would be forbidden in the IETF, because
>> it has so many possible interpretations.
>>
>> Regards
>>    Brian
>>
>> On 25/08/2014 09:22, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>> > As "Each network element needs to translate this into specific actions that
>> will result in the aim stated in intent." the mapping (translation) from state
>> to actions is left locally at the node level, which is the most general
>> definition of policy.
>> >
>> > Hence, in the definition of intent, instead of referring to "high-level
>> policy" you could refer to "high-level objective". This would avoid
>> overloading the term policy and would settle a clearer demarcation line
>> with DMTF/policy-based management models which uses different level of
>> policies (high-/low-level, network/node-specific, etc.).
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > -d.
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>> >> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 PM
>> >> To: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> >> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>> >> Subject: RE: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>> >>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
>> >>> Carpenter
>> >>> Sent: 22 August 2014 20:28
>> >>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> >>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>> >>>
>> >>>> --The exception is what you refer as information needed from
>> >>>> "policy
>> >>> intent" as it still not clear to me in which sense these words are
>> >>> used: in the common sense a policy is a mapping from state to action
>> >>> whereas an intent (from Webster) is defined as 'the thing you plan
>> >>> to do or achieve: an aim or purpose', so do you mean "lookahead
>> policies"
>> >>> (as considered in model- predictive control, rolling horizon, etc.)
>> >>> or something else ? note here that the IRTF document mentions
>> >>> "intent: an abstract high level policy..." thus not sure I would be
>> >>> able to put the
>> >> pieces altogether.
>> >>> I think Michael needs to comment on this. It is a question of what
>> >>> we mean by the word "policy" I guess. In BGP-4 for example, "filter
>> >>> out all /24s from APNIC space" might be considered an intent but
>> >>> "filter out 123.123.123.0/24" might be considered a specific policy.
>> >>> I'm not sure there is anything more subtle than that.
>> >> For reference, this is what
>> >> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-
>> >> 02 states about intent:
>> >>
>> >>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy used to operate the network
>> >>    autonomically.  Its scope is an autonomic domain, such as an
>> >>    enterprise network.  It does not contain configuration or information
>> >>    for a specific node (see Section 3.2 on how intent co-exists with
>> >>    alternative management paradigms).  It may contain information
>> >>    pertaining to nodes with a specific role.
>> >>
>> >> To respond to Dimitri's comment, what we had in mind when we came up
>> >> with the notion of "intent" is indeed the Webster definition above.
>> >> Intent defines the "aim or purpose" of the network, rather than
>> >> individual actions to achieve those. Each element receives intent,
>> >> and takes it as the "aim" that the admin has defined for the network.
>> >> My favourite example is "this network has guestnet". Which is a
>> >> general aim. Each network element needs to translate this into
>> >> specific actions that will result in the aim stated in intent.
>> >>
>> >> We didn't want to re-use the word "policy", because there are plenty
>> >> of policy languages that are setting detailed local variables. "aim
>> >> or purpose of the network" is what we were after.
>> >>
>> >> Does this description make sense? Maybe we should then re-phrase the
>> >> above definition to
>> >>
>> >>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy defining the aim or overall
>> >> purpose
>> >>    of the network. (rest unchanged)
>> >>
>> >> Is that better? If the above rough description makes sense, how can
>> >> we define it better? Please provide suggestions, happy to incorporate
>> >> in the next version of the definitions draft.
>> >>
>> >> Michael
>> >
>> >
> _______________________________________________
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> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From nobody Tue Aug 26 16:44:03 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Open Issues
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Michael: I don't know how you would like to proceed with the update of the =
charter but it would be appropriate to think about a re-spin before the wee=
kly call. Or maybe you plan to produce a revision after the call ?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringe=
r
> (mbehring)
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Open Issues
>=20
> [writing this on a plane, have been offline for hours; apologies if this
> crosses with other posts]
>=20
> ANIMA,
>=20
> I missed two days of email, and am trying to catch up now. Lots of
> discussions have happened, and the proposed charter has been discussed a
> lot, which is great. Thanks for all the feedback. Rather than responding
> to each mail threat and thought separately, let me try to list the open
> issues here first. I'm paraphrasing, and try to focus on the key points.
> Let me know if I missed a key open point.
>=20
> Comments I saw:
>=20
> - Charter discussion:
>   + overall objective and motivation missing. [Dimitri; Rene]
>   + why are the "starting points" chosen, needs more explanation.
> [Dimitri]
>   + explain ACP, why "separated"? (define it)
>   + We're not focusing on architecture, yet, the docs imply an
> architecture. [Dimitri]
>=20
> - need for an auxiliary document explaining the overall architecture.
> Details are not decided, but I think there is consensus that this should
> go in parallel to the other activities, not be a pre-condition.
>=20
> - Use cases:
>   + Not clear whether / how / how many to include in the charter.
>   + Dimitri suggested a few more use cases which should be included.
>=20
> In terms of *important* things to fix, is the above list complete?
> (Obviously, there will be tons of details to discuss).
>=20
> Michael
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Tue Aug 26 17:11:17 2014
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:11:14 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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On 27/08/2014 08:57, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Jefferson, =20
>=20
> AN is objective-function driven (the term autonomic function appropriat=
ely translates this) and keeps policing, i.e., mapping from state to poss=
ible action, local.=20

And I think what we want to deduce from "intent" are the
constraints and initial conditions for the objective function.
(Although we have to be a little careful about using terminology
that normally concerns analytic functions.)

   Brian

> This is what makes the fundamental difference with other approaches whi=
ch aim at deriving global network states (out of inward information), tra=
nslate them to actions (or actionable rules) and push the result downward=
 to nodes.
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: jeferson.nobre@gmail.com [mailto:jeferson.nobre@gmail.com] On Be=
half
>> Of J=C3=A9ferson Campos Nobre
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 9:52 PM
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.or=
g;
>> Sheng Jiang
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>
>> http://www.inf.ufrgs.br/~jcnobre
>> I don't think that changing the term will solve this "policy issue".
>> I suppose many people that will read the anima charter will think of
>> policies even if the specific word is not present.
>> Cheers.
>>
>> Jeferson
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>>> We could change "high-level policy" to "high-level objective". If
>> everybody feels like it, let's do it.
>>> I'm still slightly (!) hesitant, because it *is* a form of policy, as=

>> you state yourself in your first paragraph, Dimitri. And in an informa=
l
>> sense people understand what policy means.
>>> But if the rough consensus is "high level objective", I'll change it.=

>>>
>>> Any last opinions?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: 24 August 2014 15:53
>>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>>>> Cc: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>>
>>>> Yes. If I was king, the word "policy" would be forbidden in the IETF=
,
>>>> because it has so many possible interpretations.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>    Brian
>>>>
>>>> On 25/08/2014 09:22, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>>>>> As "Each network element needs to translate this into specific
>>>>> actions that
>>>> will result in the aim stated in intent." the mapping (translation)
>>>> from state to actions is left locally at the node level, which is th=
e
>>>> most general definition of policy.
>>>>> Hence, in the definition of intent, instead of referring to
>>>>> "high-level
>>>> policy" you could refer to "high-level objective". This would avoid
>>>> overloading the term policy and would settle a clearer demarcation
>>>> line with DMTF/policy-based management models which uses different
>>>> level of policies (high-/low-level, network/node-specific, etc.).
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> -d.
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 PM
>>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>>>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
>>>>>>> Carpenter
>>>>>>> Sent: 22 August 2014 20:28
>>>>>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>>>>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --The exception is what you refer as information needed from
>>>>>>>> "policy
>>>>>>> intent" as it still not clear to me in which sense these words
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> used: in the common sense a policy is a mapping from state to
>>>>>>> action whereas an intent (from Webster) is defined as 'the thing
>>>>>>> you plan to do or achieve: an aim or purpose', so do you mean
>>>>>>> "lookahead
>>>> policies"
>>>>>>> (as considered in model- predictive control, rolling horizon,
>>>>>>> etc.) or something else ? note here that the IRTF document
>>>>>>> mentions
>>>>>>> "intent: an abstract high level policy..." thus not sure I would
>>>>>>> be able to put the
>>>>>> pieces altogether.
>>>>>>> I think Michael needs to comment on this. It is a question of
>>>>>>> what we mean by the word "policy" I guess. In BGP-4 for example,
>>>>>>> "filter out all /24s from APNIC space" might be considered an
>>>>>>> intent but "filter out 123.123.123.0/24" might be considered a
>> specific policy.
>>>>>>> I'm not sure there is anything more subtle than that.
>>>>>> For reference, this is what
>>>>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-
>>>>>> 02 states about intent:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy used to operate the
>> network
>>>>>>    autonomically.  Its scope is an autonomic domain, such as an
>>>>>>    enterprise network.  It does not contain configuration or
>> information
>>>>>>    for a specific node (see Section 3.2 on how intent co-exists wi=
th
>>>>>>    alternative management paradigms).  It may contain information
>>>>>>    pertaining to nodes with a specific role.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To respond to Dimitri's comment, what we had in mind when we came
>>>>>> up with the notion of "intent" is indeed the Webster definition
>> above.
>>>>>> Intent defines the "aim or purpose" of the network, rather than
>>>>>> individual actions to achieve those. Each element receives intent,=

>>>>>> and takes it as the "aim" that the admin has defined for the
>> network.
>>>>>> My favourite example is "this network has guestnet". Which is a
>>>>>> general aim. Each network element needs to translate this into
>>>>>> specific actions that will result in the aim stated in intent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We didn't want to re-use the word "policy", because there are
>>>>>> plenty of policy languages that are setting detailed local
>>>>>> variables. "aim or purpose of the network" is what we were after.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this description make sense? Maybe we should then re-phrase
>>>>>> the above definition to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy defining the aim or
>>>>>> overall purpose
>>>>>>    of the network. (rest unchanged)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that better? If the above rough description makes sense, how
>>>>>> can we define it better? Please provide suggestions, happy to
>>>>>> incorporate in the next version of the definitions draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 13:21:57 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases
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Dimitri,

On 26/08/2014 22:07, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Brian,
> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Brian E Carpenter
>> [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August
>> 26, 2014 2:33 AM To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) Cc:
>> Toerless Eckert; anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang Subject: Re:
>> [Anima] Monitoring use cases
>> 
>> Dimitri,
>> 
>> On 26/08/2014 04:10, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> wrote:
>>> Toerless,
>>> 
>>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual
>>> states via cross-information processing from multiple
>>> sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitoring, protocol
>>> information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve
>>> what can't be derived out of individual protocol
>>> information that subsequently enables mapping/translating
>>> states to actions. The orchestration of these actions is
>>> part of the execution.

>> Yes, but that process isn't going to be specified by the
>> IETF, is it? It's internal to the implementation of a
>> single AN service agent, and that's where there is scope
>> for implementations to be different and to compete.
> 
> What's "external" (and thus part of IETF work) : on the
> incoming side, service agent to have the means to select and
> parametrize the arrival of information (this includes native
> sources, but also other agents) and on the outgoing side, the
> scheduling/sequencing of actions and optionally verification
> of their utility. Do we agree on this ?

I think so, except that I have been thinking of the dialogue
between two agents as being pretty symmetrical, although
of course a given conversation will be started by one
side (which Sheng and I have called the negotiation initiator).
> 
>> In the IETF we have to focus on the external interactions
>> of the nodes involved in the AN.
>> 
>>> I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. 
>>> information out of traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in
>>> addition to source of information provided/exchanged by
>>> current protocols (note: there are use cases that can
>>> limit their processing to the latter), does not mean
>>> ANIMA would have to work on metrology and related 
>>> infrastructure, one can rely on existing sources,
>>> feeders, etc.
>> Indeed - just as we will rely on existing north-south
>> management protocols when they can do the job.
> 
> Yes. Following the above statement concerning "incoming
> information", one specific aspect is the combination of local
> information and remote information selection. This is one of
> the benefits out of AN and underlying autonomy/distribution:
> processing of locally significant information can be kept
> local.

Exactly, it only needs to be shared with neighbours that
intrinsically need to share it.

> 
>>> The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is
>>> a "client" of such information but can't be client of
>>> close-loop state derivation and consistent state to
>>> action mapping because this is what AN is all about).
>> Agreed. But the protocol that mediates the closed loop when
>> more  than one node is part of the loop is surely our
>> business.
> 
> Yes.
> 
>>> Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something
>>> which would need clarification in the charter-- is that
>>> it misses (referring to my previous email on the AN
>>> dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms
>>> of realization it assumes as prerequisite the
>>> transformation and homogeneization of the underlying
>>> infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the gain in 
>>> operational/control logic while minimizing the
>>> infrastructure change (SDN looks all the contrary to me).
>>> 
>> Well yes, but since we live in the real world we can't
>> exclude cases where, for example, an AN service agent might
>> also be the SDN controller for a certain domain. (I agree
>> with you about SDN, by the way, but it is part of the
>> landscape.)
> 
> It is part of the "landscape" indeed but one of the
> properties of AN is its ability to accommodate heterogeneous
> "infrastructure" without requiring global abstraction
> (because AN is function-driven, it is the service agent
> function who drives information exchanges/processing,
> compared to models that are information-driven).

I think we are agreeing. Obviously the current draft
charter has left things unsaid, and that needs to be
fixed.

   Brian

> 
>> Brian
>> 
>>> Thanks, -d.
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Toerless Eckert 
>>>> [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014
>>>>  5:07 PM To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) Cc: Sheng
>>>> Jiang; anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring
>>>> use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
>>>> 
>>>> Dimitri,
>>>> 
>>>> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call 
>>>> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below):
>>>> 
>>>> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance
>>>> information from the network, and doing aggrgation and
>>>> analytics on it. I am not sure what aspects are covered
>>>> where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of (IETF)
>>>> gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i
>>>> wonder how we would best justify of taking on that work
>>>> in Anima:
>>>> 
>>>> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as
>>>> an overlay/"SDN" solution, with controller(s) pulling
>>>> in the information, eg: using methods like NETFLIX and
>>>> others. And potentially having a hierarchy of such
>>>> controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental
>>>> stages of pre- analytics.
>>>> 
>>>> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of
>>>> that hierarchy of information gasthering,
>>>> analytics/agregation, but rather how to autonomously
>>>> orchestrate the active components in that model - 
>>>> hopefully as agents inside the network. But without
>>>> some pre-existing model, i think we would have to do a
>>>> lot more work in Anima than just those autonomic
>>>> aspects - we might need to come up with the model 
>>>> first. A model that maybe better is defined first
>>>> non-autonomic by a better group of experts in that
>>>> subjet matter ?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers Toerless
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000,
>>>> Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>>>>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should
>>>>> include in my opinion:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all
>>>>> monitoring probes
>>>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with
>>>> the routing decision (and it would be interesting to
>>>> confront how autonomics would help automating/adapting
>>>> such task with current practices).
>>>>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies
>>>>> detection (diagnostic out
>>>> of a large set of information) which could help
>>>> configuring ACL, routing adjacencies or others.
>>>>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic
>>>>> measure
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of
>>>>> routing/topological
>>>> information analysis, the output of such process should
>>>> prevent that protecting routing path fail together with
>>>> their primary path or that an alternate path fails
>>>> right after its selection due to delay in propagation
>>>> of routing information.
>>>>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a
>>>>> simple process by
>>>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments
>>>> could be measured and estimated in order to anticipate
>>>> possible effects out of outages.
>>> _______________________________________________ Anima
>>> mailing list Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima .
>>> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
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My point is that the policy concept (explicitly or implicitly) is
necessary in an autonomic networking charter. For example, when Brian
wrote "to deduce from "intent" ... the constraints and initial
conditions", I read policy refinement/translation. I don't think that
just using "intent" or "high level objective" instead of "policy" will
set a "demarcation".

The "distributed or centralized" point is worth mentioning since IMHO
AN could be done in a centralized fashion. I'm not proposing this,
just mentioning it is possible, so it is necessary to state clearly
that distributed AN is a choice.

J=C3=A9ferson
J=C3=A9ferson Campos Nobre
PhD Student
Computer Networks Group -  Institute of Informatics
Federal University of Rio Grande do Sul
http://www.inf.ufrgs.br/~jcnobre


On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 9:11 PM, Brian E Carpenter
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 27/08/2014 08:57, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>> Jefferson,
>>
>> AN is objective-function driven (the term autonomic function appropriate=
ly translates this) and keeps policing, i.e., mapping from state to possibl=
e action, local.
>
> And I think what we want to deduce from "intent" are the
> constraints and initial conditions for the objective function.
> (Although we have to be a little careful about using terminology
> that normally concerns analytic functions.)
>
>    Brian
>
>> This is what makes the fundamental difference with other approaches whic=
h aim at deriving global network states (out of inward information), transl=
ate them to actions (or actionable rules) and push the result downward to n=
odes.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: jeferson.nobre@gmail.com [mailto:jeferson.nobre@gmail.com] On Beh=
alf
>>> Of J=C3=A9ferson Campos Nobre
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 9:52 PM
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org=
;
>>> Sheng Jiang
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>
>>> http://www.inf.ufrgs.br/~jcnobre
>>> I don't think that changing the term will solve this "policy issue".
>>> I suppose many people that will read the anima charter will think of
>>> policies even if the specific word is not present.
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> Jeferson
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>> We could change "high-level policy" to "high-level objective". If
>>> everybody feels like it, let's do it.
>>>> I'm still slightly (!) hesitant, because it *is* a form of policy, as
>>> you state yourself in your first paragraph, Dimitri. And in an informal
>>> sense people understand what policy means.
>>>> But if the rough consensus is "high level objective", I'll change it.
>>>>
>>>> Any last opinions?
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: 24 August 2014 15:53
>>>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>>>>> Cc: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. If I was king, the word "policy" would be forbidden in the IETF,
>>>>> because it has so many possible interpretations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>    Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25/08/2014 09:22, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>>>>>> As "Each network element needs to translate this into specific
>>>>>> actions that
>>>>> will result in the aim stated in intent." the mapping (translation)
>>>>> from state to actions is left locally at the node level, which is the
>>>>> most general definition of policy.
>>>>>> Hence, in the definition of intent, instead of referring to
>>>>>> "high-level
>>>>> policy" you could refer to "high-level objective". This would avoid
>>>>> overloading the term policy and would settle a clearer demarcation
>>>>> line with DMTF/policy-based management models which uses different
>>>>> level of policies (high-/low-level, network/node-specific, etc.).
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> -d.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 PM
>>>>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>>>>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
>>>>>>>> Carpenter
>>>>>>>> Sent: 22 August 2014 20:28
>>>>>>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>>>>>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Select Use cases for charter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --The exception is what you refer as information needed from
>>>>>>>>> "policy
>>>>>>>> intent" as it still not clear to me in which sense these words
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> used: in the common sense a policy is a mapping from state to
>>>>>>>> action whereas an intent (from Webster) is defined as 'the thing
>>>>>>>> you plan to do or achieve: an aim or purpose', so do you mean
>>>>>>>> "lookahead
>>>>> policies"
>>>>>>>> (as considered in model- predictive control, rolling horizon,
>>>>>>>> etc.) or something else ? note here that the IRTF document
>>>>>>>> mentions
>>>>>>>> "intent: an abstract high level policy..." thus not sure I would
>>>>>>>> be able to put the
>>>>>>> pieces altogether.
>>>>>>>> I think Michael needs to comment on this. It is a question of
>>>>>>>> what we mean by the word "policy" I guess. In BGP-4 for example,
>>>>>>>> "filter out all /24s from APNIC space" might be considered an
>>>>>>>> intent but "filter out 123.123.123.0/24" might be considered a
>>> specific policy.
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure there is anything more subtle than that.
>>>>>>> For reference, this is what
>>>>>>> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-
>>>>>>> 02 states about intent:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy used to operate the
>>> network
>>>>>>>    autonomically.  Its scope is an autonomic domain, such as an
>>>>>>>    enterprise network.  It does not contain configuration or
>>> information
>>>>>>>    for a specific node (see Section 3.2 on how intent co-exists wit=
h
>>>>>>>    alternative management paradigms).  It may contain information
>>>>>>>    pertaining to nodes with a specific role.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To respond to Dimitri's comment, what we had in mind when we came
>>>>>>> up with the notion of "intent" is indeed the Webster definition
>>> above.
>>>>>>> Intent defines the "aim or purpose" of the network, rather than
>>>>>>> individual actions to achieve those. Each element receives intent,
>>>>>>> and takes it as the "aim" that the admin has defined for the
>>> network.
>>>>>>> My favourite example is "this network has guestnet". Which is a
>>>>>>> general aim. Each network element needs to translate this into
>>>>>>> specific actions that will result in the aim stated in intent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We didn't want to re-use the word "policy", because there are
>>>>>>> plenty of policy languages that are setting detailed local
>>>>>>> variables. "aim or purpose of the network" is what we were after.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does this description make sense? Maybe we should then re-phrase
>>>>>>> the above definition to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Intent: An abstract, high level policy defining the aim or
>>>>>>> overall purpose
>>>>>>>    of the network. (rest unchanged)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that better? If the above rough description makes sense, how
>>>>>>> can we define it better? Please provide suggestions, happy to
>>>>>>> incorporate in the next version of the definitions draft.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>


From nobody Wed Aug 27 06:28:11 2014
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From: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] AN and I2RS
Thread-Index: AQHPqNFdLNDwVygy1EC/ACq628yEAJu4EgsAgAokwACAAaSNgIAgyHYA
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 13:28:00 +0000
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Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9ferson_Campos_Nobre?= <jcnobre@inf.ufrgs.br>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
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Michael,

I'm back to my normal schedule and catching up with emails, so a delayed re=
ply.

I agree with many of the statements you made and I understand the goals of =
ANIMA, but what protocols will ANIMA use for communication? That same quest=
ion is asked by I2RS. What protocol to use between I2RS client and I2RS age=
nt? From I2RS perspective, a single I2RS client can talk to multiple I2RS a=
gents, so from a single client you can instruct multiple devices. So you ca=
n instruct I2RS client to use OSPF and I2RS client will instruct all I2RS a=
gents to configure OSPF.

Please see more inline

Dean

On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.c=
om> wrote:

> Dean,=20
>=20
> To the relationship between ANIMA and I2RS:=20
>=20
> To me, the difference is simple, and relates to the interface between wha=
t I2RS calls the agent and the client :=20
> - I2RS (as well as general SDN approaches) focus on guidance for the spec=
ific element in question. Example: "node x: for prefix y, set next hop z".=
=20
> - In Autonomics, you do NOT provide guidance for a specific element, but =
to the entire network or a group of nodes. Example: "all BGP speakers: Pref=
er SP 1 over SP2". or "this network runs OSPF".=20
>=20
> The way I see it, autonomics will set a default for the network, i2rs (an=
d other node specific methods, including CLI, SNMP, etc) set a more specifi=
c guidance on a per node level.=20

but you can use I2Rs achieve that. Of course, we can work on a completely n=
ew way to do it, but I believe that we have to look if there are some mecha=
nisms available and improve them.

>=20
> This requires conflict resolution.=20
>=20
> There are already a large number of ways to influence the behaviour of a =
node: Netconf, CLI, SNMP, i2rs, ...). With autonomics, there are two more:=
=20
> - the autonomic default behaviour of a node=20
> - the same, but influenced by intent, which is a network wide policy
> Anything node specific (above list) overrides the network wide behaviour.=
=20
>=20
> This way, autonomics can set a network wide default behaviour, possibly c=
ontrolled by intent, and i2rs and the other mechanisms define exceptions wh=
ere needed.=20

in i2rs you have two layers one if i2rs client and one is i2rs agent. So I =
can see that i2rs client translates intent into actions that are enforced b=
y i2rs agent on the device.
>=20
> This is similar to the behaviour of an IGP: The default IGP sets the gene=
ral routing, a local static route for example provides a local override. (N=
ote well: ... and is a really good way to mess up an otherwise stable and d=
eterministic network)

:-)

>=20
> See also what I wrote in NMRG:=20
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nmrg/current/msg01580.html
>=20
> [side question: To me it is clear that autonomics / intent are overridden=
 by all node specific mechanisms. But I don't have clear how those are prio=
ritised between themselves? The i2rs architecture doc makes a vague stateme=
nt that " policy can determine whether Local Config overrides a particular =
I2RS client's request or vice versa." Personally I think there should be a =
pre-defined priority list, but that's for another discussion.]=20
>=20
> Now, autonomics as well as i2rs needs an agent for this messaging. So far=
, I see that as a separate agent, since the interactions may be different; =
but, need to think more about that. Compare figure 1 of draft-ietf-i2rs-arc=
hitecture-05 with figure 1 of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions=
-01. The autonomic user agent is similar to the i2rs agent. It interprets i=
ntent, and does the messaging for external feedback loops. How would you se=
e that?=20
>=20
Yes, I agree with that, but how will the autonomic agent communicate the in=
tent to the device? Autonomic agent will have to configure the device. Do y=
ou see that autonomic agent will write into persistent data storage on the =
device or transient

> Does the above make sense? Should we maybe include a statement like this =
in the ANIMA charter?=20
We have to think about how the intent is communicated to the device and how=
 to store the result of the intent.
>=20
> More inline...
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dean
>> Bogdanovic
>> Sent: 05 August 2014 17:45
>> To: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre
>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
>>=20
> [...]
>>> Do you mean the I2RS agent? For me it seems the Autonomic Networking
>>> Service Agent is closer to the I2RS agent (not the routing element as
>>> a whole). However, considering this means that the AN agent would need
>>> to speak the I2RS protocol.
>>=20
>> Adding intelligence to I2RS agent is something very desirable, as the
>> multiple I2RS clients will talk to the same I2RS agent and the agent wil=
l have
>> to make decisions, without having always connection to the client. For I=
2RS
>> we are considering NETCONF/RESTCONF as a protocol.
>> Another protocol that is interesting for AN is DLEP (draft-ietf-manet-dl=
ep-
>> 05). It provides discovery and information collection mechanism about li=
nks.
>=20
> I'm not sure whether the agent should do conflict resolution. Conflicts h=
ave to be resolved between a wide range of "configuration" models, should t=
hus sit logically below all those agents. In my head, there is an agent per=
 approach, one for i2rs, one for AN, one for CLI, ... and below that is con=
flict resolution.=20

I'm not sure about one agent per approach. I see more that AN can use I2RS =
agent or some other agent to change the behavior of the device.
>=20
>>>> We could also wonder whether I2RS isn't a nice AN use case, but it's
>>>> very complex - the I2RS WG itself is deep into multiple use case
>>>> analysis and information model development - to say it bluntly, ANIMA
>>>> doesn't need that much complexity right now ;-).
>> Well, AN needs to talk to routing system to collect information. So inst=
ead
>> of creating a parallel mechanism, why not to join forces with I2RS and f=
ind if
>> other requirements are needed to satisfy AN use cases.
>=20
> I can see an autonomic service agent having to get routing info from the =
box, but that is an internal mechanism. I do not right now see a case where=
 an autonomic service agent would talk to an i2rs agent on another box. I w=
ould rather see the AN agents on both boxes talk to each other, and the int=
erface to the routing system being internal to that box. Thoughts?=20

that makes sense. please see my above comment on this.

Dean

>=20
>>> BTW, I think the I2RS use case requirements I-D
>>> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hares-i2rs-usecase-reqs-summary-00)
>>> can be an example for an integrated use case I-D for ANIMA. They also
>>> have several use cases and this I-D gives a consistent view of them
>>> regarding the WG (e.g., classes of use cases).
>> I agree with Jeferson on this and based on such a draft we can see if th=
ere is
>> any overlap with I2RS requirements.
>=20
> Need to read that draft. But I would return to my previous statement: AN =
is not about direct node programming, but to a large extent about horizonta=
l interfaces, with a minimal northbound interface. Many use cases can be so=
lved in either way. AN is specifically looking at use cases where horizonta=
l communication is a MUST or a big advantage.=20
>=20
> Expressed differently: If i2rs has a use case and a good, generally accep=
ted solution for that use case, then maybe it's not a good use case for AN =
to start with. AN should focus on use cases where distribution (ie horizont=
al communication) is a big advantage or even a MUST.=20
>=20
> The AN bootstrap use case is a good example: you can't solve that through=
 a northbound method like i2rs, because it's exactly about deriving the key=
 material to establish this northbound communication in the first place. AN=
IMA should focus on that type of use case initially, I think.=20
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>>>> I think it is far too soon to even hypothetically consider whether
>>>> I2RS and AN have overlapping protocol requirements. I2RS has a line
>>>> its charter:
>>>>=20
>>>>> - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding
>>>>> languages against the requirements.
>>>>=20
>>>> but I don't see any sign of an active draft on that topic.
>>>=20
>>> Probably it would be also good to have this kind of analysis for
>>> ANIMA. For example, an alternative for CDNP was mentioned during the
>>> BoF, thus at least the IETF alternatives protocols/mechanisms (if they
>>> exist) should be cited in the ANIMA I-Ds.
>>>=20
>>>> Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to talk with any of the I2RS
>>>> protagonists during the IETF. If anybody here can comment further,
>>>> please do so.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards
>>>>   Brian
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] AN and I2RS
Thread-Index: AQHPqNFeakBCfDRpyUu9ZXLvip5sHZu4ZdwAgAokwwCAARgI0IAhVPkA//+6GJA=
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Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:deanb@juniper.net]
> Sent: 27 August 2014 06:28
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> Cc: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
>=20
> Michael,
>=20
> I'm back to my normal schedule and catching up with emails, so a delayed
> reply.
>=20
> I agree with many of the statements you made and I understand the goals o=
f
> ANIMA, but what protocols will ANIMA use for communication? That same
> question is asked by I2RS. What protocol to use between I2RS client and
> I2RS agent? From I2RS perspective, a single I2RS client can talk to multi=
ple
> I2RS agents, so from a single client you can instruct multiple devices. S=
o you
> can instruct I2RS client to use OSPF and I2RS client will instruct all I2=
RS
> agents to configure OSPF.

Which protocols to pick is the job of the working group. If a suitable prot=
ocol exists, we should of course not invent a new one.=20
=20
> Please see more inline
>=20
> Dean
>=20
> On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Dean,
> >
> > To the relationship between ANIMA and I2RS:
> >
> > To me, the difference is simple, and relates to the interface between w=
hat
> I2RS calls the agent and the client :
> > - I2RS (as well as general SDN approaches) focus on guidance for the
> specific element in question. Example: "node x: for prefix y, set next ho=
p z".
> > - In Autonomics, you do NOT provide guidance for a specific element, bu=
t
> to the entire network or a group of nodes. Example: "all BGP speakers:
> Prefer SP 1 over SP2". or "this network runs OSPF".
> >
> > The way I see it, autonomics will set a default for the network, i2rs (=
and
> other node specific methods, including CLI, SNMP, etc) set a more specifi=
c
> guidance on a per node level.
>=20
> but you can use I2Rs achieve that. Of course, we can work on a completely
> new way to do it, but I believe that we have to look if there are some
> mechanisms available and improve them.

And if there is an existing protocol that meets the specs, let's use it of =
course.=20

Michael
=20
> >
> > This requires conflict resolution.
> >
> > There are already a large number of ways to influence the behaviour of =
a
> node: Netconf, CLI, SNMP, i2rs, ...). With autonomics, there are two more=
:
> > - the autonomic default behaviour of a node
> > - the same, but influenced by intent, which is a network wide policy
> > Anything node specific (above list) overrides the network wide behaviou=
r.
> >
> > This way, autonomics can set a network wide default behaviour, possibly
> controlled by intent, and i2rs and the other mechanisms define exceptions
> where needed.
>=20
> in i2rs you have two layers one if i2rs client and one is i2rs agent. So =
I can
> see that i2rs client translates intent into actions that are enforced by =
i2rs
> agent on the device.
> >
> > This is similar to the behaviour of an IGP: The default IGP sets the
> > general routing, a local static route for example provides a local
> > override. (Note well: ... and is a really good way to mess up an
> > otherwise stable and deterministic network)
>=20
> :-)
>=20
> >
> > See also what I wrote in NMRG:
> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nmrg/current/msg01580.html
> >
> > [side question: To me it is clear that autonomics / intent are
> > overridden by all node specific mechanisms. But I don't have clear how
> > those are prioritised between themselves? The i2rs architecture doc
> > makes a vague statement that " policy can determine whether Local
> > Config overrides a particular I2RS client's request or vice versa."
> > Personally I think there should be a pre-defined priority list, but
> > that's for another discussion.]
> >
> > Now, autonomics as well as i2rs needs an agent for this messaging. So f=
ar, I
> see that as a separate agent, since the interactions may be different; bu=
t,
> need to think more about that. Compare figure 1 of draft-ietf-i2rs-
> architecture-05 with figure 1 of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-
> definitions-01. The autonomic user agent is similar to the i2rs agent. It
> interprets intent, and does the messaging for external feedback loops. Ho=
w
> would you see that?
> >
> Yes, I agree with that, but how will the autonomic agent communicate the
> intent to the device? Autonomic agent will have to configure the device. =
Do
> you see that autonomic agent will write into persistent data storage on t=
he
> device or transient
>=20
> > Does the above make sense? Should we maybe include a statement like
> this in the ANIMA charter?
> We have to think about how the intent is communicated to the device and
> how to store the result of the intent.
> >
> > More inline...
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dean
> >> Bogdanovic
> >> Sent: 05 August 2014 17:45
> >> To: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre
> >> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
> >>
> > [...]
> >>> Do you mean the I2RS agent? For me it seems the Autonomic
> Networking
> >>> Service Agent is closer to the I2RS agent (not the routing element
> >>> as a whole). However, considering this means that the AN agent would
> >>> need to speak the I2RS protocol.
> >>
> >> Adding intelligence to I2RS agent is something very desirable, as the
> >> multiple I2RS clients will talk to the same I2RS agent and the agent
> >> will have to make decisions, without having always connection to the
> >> client. For I2RS we are considering NETCONF/RESTCONF as a protocol.
> >> Another protocol that is interesting for AN is DLEP
> >> (draft-ietf-manet-dlep- 05). It provides discovery and information
> collection mechanism about links.
> >
> > I'm not sure whether the agent should do conflict resolution. Conflicts
> have to be resolved between a wide range of "configuration" models,
> should thus sit logically below all those agents. In my head, there is an
> agent per approach, one for i2rs, one for AN, one for CLI, ... and below =
that
> is conflict resolution.
>=20
> I'm not sure about one agent per approach. I see more that AN can use I2R=
S
> agent or some other agent to change the behavior of the device.
> >
> >>>> We could also wonder whether I2RS isn't a nice AN use case, but
> >>>> it's very complex - the I2RS WG itself is deep into multiple use
> >>>> case analysis and information model development - to say it
> >>>> bluntly, ANIMA doesn't need that much complexity right now ;-).
> >> Well, AN needs to talk to routing system to collect information. So
> >> instead of creating a parallel mechanism, why not to join forces with
> >> I2RS and find if other requirements are needed to satisfy AN use cases=
.
> >
> > I can see an autonomic service agent having to get routing info from th=
e
> box, but that is an internal mechanism. I do not right now see a case whe=
re
> an autonomic service agent would talk to an i2rs agent on another box. I
> would rather see the AN agents on both boxes talk to each other, and the
> interface to the routing system being internal to that box. Thoughts?
>=20
> that makes sense. please see my above comment on this.
>=20
> Dean
>=20
> >
> >>> BTW, I think the I2RS use case requirements I-D
> >>> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hares-i2rs-usecase-reqs-summary-00
> >>> ) can be an example for an integrated use case I-D for ANIMA. They
> >>> also have several use cases and this I-D gives a consistent view of
> >>> them regarding the WG (e.g., classes of use cases).
> >> I agree with Jeferson on this and based on such a draft we can see if
> >> there is any overlap with I2RS requirements.
> >
> > Need to read that draft. But I would return to my previous statement: A=
N
> is not about direct node programming, but to a large extent about horizon=
tal
> interfaces, with a minimal northbound interface. Many use cases can be
> solved in either way. AN is specifically looking at use cases where horiz=
ontal
> communication is a MUST or a big advantage.
> >
> > Expressed differently: If i2rs has a use case and a good, generally acc=
epted
> solution for that use case, then maybe it's not a good use case for AN to=
 start
> with. AN should focus on use cases where distribution (ie horizontal
> communication) is a big advantage or even a MUST.
> >
> > The AN bootstrap use case is a good example: you can't solve that throu=
gh
> a northbound method like i2rs, because it's exactly about deriving the ke=
y
> material to establish this northbound communication in the first place.
> ANIMA should focus on that type of use case initially, I think.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >>>> I think it is far too soon to even hypothetically consider whether
> >>>> I2RS and AN have overlapping protocol requirements. I2RS has a line
> >>>> its charter:
> >>>>
> >>>>> - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding
> >>>>> languages against the requirements.
> >>>>
> >>>> but I don't see any sign of an active draft on that topic.
> >>>
> >>> Probably it would be also good to have this kind of analysis for
> >>> ANIMA. For example, an alternative for CDNP was mentioned during the
> >>> BoF, thus at least the IETF alternatives protocols/mechanisms (if
> >>> they
> >>> exist) should be cited in the ANIMA I-Ds.
> >>>
> >>>> Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to talk with any of the I2RS
> >>>> protagonists during the IETF. If anybody here can comment further,
> >>>> please do so.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>>   Brian
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Anima mailing list
> >>>> Anima@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Anima mailing list
> >>> Anima@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Anima mailing list
> >> Anima@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
To: "Fuyu (Eleven)" <eleven.fuyu@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 18:21:13 +0000
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Cc: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Yu
On Aug 26, 2014, at 4:26 AM, Fuyu (Eleven) <eleven.fuyu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Dimitri and all,
>=20
>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cro=
ss-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitor=
ing, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve wha=
t can't be derived out of individual protocol information that
>> subsequently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestr=
ation of these actions is part of the execution.
>=20
> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement segme=
nt (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurement. Th=
en analytics and filtration from this information is needed to enable the p=
olicy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the QoS.
I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to do analy=
sis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send analyzed i=
nformation to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that the probes w=
ould be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constraint environme=
nt and data analytics is computationally expensive. This information can be=
 used for other cases, not just for QoS.

> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitoring use=
 cases.
>=20
> BR
> Yu
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Papadimitriou, D=
imitri (Dimitri)
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:11 AM
> To: Toerless Eckert
> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for char=
ter)
>=20
> Toerless,
>=20
> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cros=
s-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitori=
ng, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve what=
 can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subsequently =
enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of these a=
ctions is part of the execution.
>=20
> I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. information out =
of traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in addition to source of information=
 provided/exchanged by current protocols (note: there are use cases that ca=
n limit their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA would have to =
work on metrology and related infrastructure, one can rely on existing sour=
ces, feeders, etc.
>=20
> The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a "client" of s=
uch information but can't be client of close-loop state derivation and cons=
istent state to action mapping because this is what AN is all about).
>=20
> Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which would need c=
larification in the charter-- is that it misses (referring to my previous e=
mail on the AN dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms of r=
ealization it assumes as prerequisite the transformation and homogeneizatio=
n of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the gain in opera=
tional/control logic while minimizing the infrastructure change (SDN looks =
all the contrary to me).
>=20
> Thanks,
> -d.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:07 PM
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for
>> charter)
>>=20
>> Dimitri,
>>=20
>> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call
>> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below):
>>=20
>> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information from
>> the network, and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sure
>> what aspects are covered where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of
>> (IETF) gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wonder
>> how we would best justify of taking on that work in Anima:
>>=20
>> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/"SDN"
>> solution, with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using
>> methods like NETFLIX and others. And potentially having a hierarchy of
>> such controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental stages of
>> pre- analytics.
>>=20
>> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarchy
>> of information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to
>> autonomously orchestrate the active components in that model -
>> hopefully as agents inside the network. But without some pre-existing
>> model, i think we would have to do a lot more work in Anima than just
>> those autonomic aspects - we might need to come up with the model
>> first. A model that maybe better is defined first non-autonomic by a
>> better group of experts in that subjet matter ?
>>=20
>> Cheers
>>    Toerless
>>=20
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri
>> (Dimitri)
>> wrote:
>>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
>>>=20
>>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing
>> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would
>> help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
>>>=20
>>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic
>>> out
>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL,
>> routing adjacencies or others.
>>>=20
>>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
>>>=20
>>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
>> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that
>> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that
>> an alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in
>> propagation of routing information.
>>>=20
>>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process
>>> by
>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be measured
>> and estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of outages.
>>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Wed Aug 27 13:10:40 2014
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 08:10:16 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
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On 28/08/2014 05:04, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:deanb@juniper.net]
>> Sent: 27 August 2014 06:28
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> Cc: J=C3=A9ferson Campos Nobre; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> I'm back to my normal schedule and catching up with emails, so a delay=
ed
>> reply.
>>
>> I agree with many of the statements you made and I understand the goal=
s of
>> ANIMA, but what protocols will ANIMA use for communication? That same
>> question is asked by I2RS. What protocol to use between I2RS client an=
d
>> I2RS agent? From I2RS perspective, a single I2RS client can talk to mu=
ltiple
>> I2RS agents, so from a single client you can instruct multiple devices=
=2E So you
>> can instruct I2RS client to use OSPF and I2RS client will instruct all=
 I2RS
>> agents to configure OSPF.
>=20
> Which protocols to pick is the job of the working group. If a suitable =
protocol exists, we should of course not invent a new one.=20

My thinking on this is that the nature of communication is a little diffe=
rent
in AN than in all traditional management, monitoring or configuration
solutions. It is really peer to peer (as mentioned in some recent mail
with Dimitri, it is part of a closed-loop process). So the protocol
carrying the communication really needs to be symmetrical rather than
command-response.

We did some analysis of existing protocols in
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03#section-3=

That perhaps needs to be further developed. Does I2RS have a statement
of requirements for its protocol choice?

   Brian

>> Please see more inline
>>
>> Dean
>>
>> On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dean,
>>>
>>> To the relationship between ANIMA and I2RS:
>>>
>>> To me, the difference is simple, and relates to the interface between=
 what
>> I2RS calls the agent and the client :
>>> - I2RS (as well as general SDN approaches) focus on guidance for the
>> specific element in question. Example: "node x: for prefix y, set next=
 hop z".
>>> - In Autonomics, you do NOT provide guidance for a specific element, =
but
>> to the entire network or a group of nodes. Example: "all BGP speakers:=

>> Prefer SP 1 over SP2". or "this network runs OSPF".
>>> The way I see it, autonomics will set a default for the network, i2rs=
 (and
>> other node specific methods, including CLI, SNMP, etc) set a more spec=
ific
>> guidance on a per node level.
>>
>> but you can use I2Rs achieve that. Of course, we can work on a complet=
ely
>> new way to do it, but I believe that we have to look if there are some=

>> mechanisms available and improve them.
>=20
> And if there is an existing protocol that meets the specs, let's use it=
 of course.=20
>=20
> Michael
> =20
>>> This requires conflict resolution.
>>>
>>> There are already a large number of ways to influence the behaviour o=
f a
>> node: Netconf, CLI, SNMP, i2rs, ...). With autonomics, there are two m=
ore:
>>> - the autonomic default behaviour of a node
>>> - the same, but influenced by intent, which is a network wide policy
>>> Anything node specific (above list) overrides the network wide behavi=
our.
>>>
>>> This way, autonomics can set a network wide default behaviour, possib=
ly
>> controlled by intent, and i2rs and the other mechanisms define excepti=
ons
>> where needed.
>>
>> in i2rs you have two layers one if i2rs client and one is i2rs agent. =
So I can
>> see that i2rs client translates intent into actions that are enforced =
by i2rs
>> agent on the device.
>>> This is similar to the behaviour of an IGP: The default IGP sets the
>>> general routing, a local static route for example provides a local
>>> override. (Note well: ... and is a really good way to mess up an
>>> otherwise stable and deterministic network)
>> :-)
>>
>>> See also what I wrote in NMRG:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nmrg/current/msg01580.html
>>>
>>> [side question: To me it is clear that autonomics / intent are
>>> overridden by all node specific mechanisms. But I don't have clear ho=
w
>>> those are prioritised between themselves? The i2rs architecture doc
>>> makes a vague statement that " policy can determine whether Local
>>> Config overrides a particular I2RS client's request or vice versa."
>>> Personally I think there should be a pre-defined priority list, but
>>> that's for another discussion.]
>>>
>>> Now, autonomics as well as i2rs needs an agent for this messaging. So=
 far, I
>> see that as a separate agent, since the interactions may be different;=
 but,
>> need to think more about that. Compare figure 1 of draft-ietf-i2rs-
>> architecture-05 with figure 1 of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-
>> definitions-01. The autonomic user agent is similar to the i2rs agent.=
 It
>> interprets intent, and does the messaging for external feedback loops.=
 How
>> would you see that?
>> Yes, I agree with that, but how will the autonomic agent communicate t=
he
>> intent to the device? Autonomic agent will have to configure the devic=
e. Do
>> you see that autonomic agent will write into persistent data storage o=
n the
>> device or transient
>>
>>> Does the above make sense? Should we maybe include a statement like
>> this in the ANIMA charter?
>> We have to think about how the intent is communicated to the device an=
d
>> how to store the result of the intent.
>>> More inline...
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dean
>>>> Bogdanovic
>>>> Sent: 05 August 2014 17:45
>>>> To: J=C3=A9ferson Campos Nobre
>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
>>>>
>>> [...]
>>>>> Do you mean the I2RS agent? For me it seems the Autonomic
>> Networking
>>>>> Service Agent is closer to the I2RS agent (not the routing element
>>>>> as a whole). However, considering this means that the AN agent woul=
d
>>>>> need to speak the I2RS protocol.
>>>> Adding intelligence to I2RS agent is something very desirable, as th=
e
>>>> multiple I2RS clients will talk to the same I2RS agent and the agent=

>>>> will have to make decisions, without having always connection to the=

>>>> client. For I2RS we are considering NETCONF/RESTCONF as a protocol.
>>>> Another protocol that is interesting for AN is DLEP
>>>> (draft-ietf-manet-dlep- 05). It provides discovery and information
>> collection mechanism about links.
>>> I'm not sure whether the agent should do conflict resolution. Conflic=
ts
>> have to be resolved between a wide range of "configuration" models,
>> should thus sit logically below all those agents. In my head, there is=
 an
>> agent per approach, one for i2rs, one for AN, one for CLI, ... and bel=
ow that
>> is conflict resolution.
>>
>> I'm not sure about one agent per approach. I see more that AN can use =
I2RS
>> agent or some other agent to change the behavior of the device.
>>>>>> We could also wonder whether I2RS isn't a nice AN use case, but
>>>>>> it's very complex - the I2RS WG itself is deep into multiple use
>>>>>> case analysis and information model development - to say it
>>>>>> bluntly, ANIMA doesn't need that much complexity right now ;-).
>>>> Well, AN needs to talk to routing system to collect information. So
>>>> instead of creating a parallel mechanism, why not to join forces wit=
h
>>>> I2RS and find if other requirements are needed to satisfy AN use cas=
es.
>>> I can see an autonomic service agent having to get routing info from =
the
>> box, but that is an internal mechanism. I do not right now see a case =
where
>> an autonomic service agent would talk to an i2rs agent on another box.=
 I
>> would rather see the AN agents on both boxes talk to each other, and t=
he
>> interface to the routing system being internal to that box. Thoughts?
>>
>> that makes sense. please see my above comment on this.
>>
>> Dean
>>
>>>>> BTW, I think the I2RS use case requirements I-D
>>>>> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hares-i2rs-usecase-reqs-summary-0=
0
>>>>> ) can be an example for an integrated use case I-D for ANIMA. They
>>>>> also have several use cases and this I-D gives a consistent view of=

>>>>> them regarding the WG (e.g., classes of use cases).
>>>> I agree with Jeferson on this and based on such a draft we can see i=
f
>>>> there is any overlap with I2RS requirements.
>>> Need to read that draft. But I would return to my previous statement:=
 AN
>> is not about direct node programming, but to a large extent about hori=
zontal
>> interfaces, with a minimal northbound interface. Many use cases can be=

>> solved in either way. AN is specifically looking at use cases where ho=
rizontal
>> communication is a MUST or a big advantage.
>>> Expressed differently: If i2rs has a use case and a good, generally a=
ccepted
>> solution for that use case, then maybe it's not a good use case for AN=
 to start
>> with. AN should focus on use cases where distribution (ie horizontal
>> communication) is a big advantage or even a MUST.
>>> The AN bootstrap use case is a good example: you can't solve that thr=
ough
>> a northbound method like i2rs, because it's exactly about deriving the=
 key
>> material to establish this northbound communication in the first place=
=2E
>> ANIMA should focus on that type of use case initially, I think.
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>>>> I think it is far too soon to even hypothetically consider whether=

>>>>>> I2RS and AN have overlapping protocol requirements. I2RS has a lin=
e
>>>>>> its charter:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding
>>>>>>> languages against the requirements.
>>>>>> but I don't see any sign of an active draft on that topic.
>>>>> Probably it would be also good to have this kind of analysis for
>>>>> ANIMA. For example, an alternative for CDNP was mentioned during th=
e
>>>>> BoF, thus at least the IETF alternatives protocols/mechanisms (if
>>>>> they
>>>>> exist) should be cited in the ANIMA I-Ds.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to talk with any of the I2RS
>>>>>> protagonists during the IETF. If anybody here can comment further,=

>>>>>> please do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>   Brian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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Today, I spent some time going through the feedback, and trying to address =
it in the charter. Also discussed briefly with Rene 1:1.=20

The feedback received was, high level. Inline the response.=20

- Charter discussion:=20
  + overall objective and motivation missing. [Dimitri; Rene]

Tried to be clearer on the problem statement and goals, please see respecti=
ve section in v7. I added section titles to make navigation simpler. Please=
 see whether that is clearer now, and if not, how we could phrase it better=
.=20

  + why are the "starting points" chosen, needs more explanation. [Dimitri]

The starting points are meant as "there is a doc that describes something i=
n this space" and nothing more. They certainly don't mean that we have to u=
se them.  If you know of alternatives you'd like to propose please feel fre=
e to do so.=20

What is the best way to advance on this topic? I added a sentence on "prefe=
rence for existing methods", to illustrate that we do not necessarily need =
a new protocol / method / whatever if a suitable one exists.=20

I also added "The documents listed are not exclusive and alternatives may b=
e proposed". Does that cut it?=20

  + explain ACP, why "separated"? (define it)

I think this is now done in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-0=
3. Since the charter points to that doc already, i suggest this point is ta=
ken care of.=20

  + We're not focusing on architecture, yet, the docs imply an architecture=
. [Dimitri]

That one still needs sorting. Current thinking is (I think) to have a compa=
nion doc. Further discussion needed.=20

Please see attached v7. Please don't just state "I don't like x", but make =
suggestions on how the charter could be made better.=20

Michael


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--_002_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C296CExmbrcdx14ciscoc_--


From nobody Thu Aug 28 00:15:55 2014
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 00:15:47 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.
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Michael,

This again looks like good analysis, but i wonder if we also need
to restate the operator visible problems that ultimately lead to
these conclusions better represented in the charter.

The list of problems and target solutions or ANIMA the way i see
it is as follows: This could be separated into a list of problems
and another list of solution areas:

- Manual labour intensive device/network bootstrap
  -> want secure zero touch bootstrap.

- Fragile, config dependent, insecure NOC and/or SDN OAM connectivity
  -> want secure, zero touch, reliable OAM connectivity for NOC/SDN

- High cost/risk in operating rich set of network services due to siloed,
  inconsistent re-implementation of common communications/security functions.
  -> want security, consistency though common functions

- Expensive, per-device orchestration needed due to lack of
  network wide OAM interface to services (intent).
  -> want in-network services with network wide intent/reporting
     interface to NOC.

- Lack of in-network control-loops for services outsources dynamic
  services adaptation to NOC - scale, performance, availability issues.
  -> Want common infrastructure components to self-orchestrate
     in network control loops. Want to build limited set of such
     self orchestrating services/agents.

Cheers
    Toerless




On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 08:41:58PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> It is fairly clear that the charter isn't good enough yet, we had too many comments about this. Can we take a step back, look at the big picture, see whether we agree on that level, and THEN dive back down to writing something down? 
> 
> Here is how I would phrase it, informally. Train of thought: 
> 
> 1) Independent processes: Networks today have a number of processes that run distributed, and do things on their own. The admin monitors, and takes care of exceptions, but by and large these processes run on their own in the network. (I call that "autonomic", but the term itself has raised discussions, so let's leave that discussion for later, to stay focused). Examples are all the IGPs, VRRP, etc. 
> 
> 2) Lack of common infrastructure: All those processes run independently of each other. Each of them has its own way to communicate, manage policy (if applicable), secure itself, etc. This is where I am coming from: I used to work in infrastructure security, and the fact that you have to secure each protocol independently, each with its own key scheme, algorithms, etc is a major pain in operating networks today. This is the security angle, but other angles exist, for example monitoring, reporting, general policy, etc. 
> 
> The above to me is the problem statement. Why is that a problem that needs fixing? Because the operational cost of securing a network is a problem. And when opex is reduced, security suffers. Others may chime in with similar stories from their area of expertise, but I think it's a pretty generic issue. 
> 
> The goal then is: 
> 
> 3) Finding common infrastructure: Assume we accept for a moment that the lack of common functions across a network is an issue, can this be simplified? Can we define one, simple way to manage for example the key material for all the protocols, in one go? We tried to find a solution and came up with draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures; that draft describes how to securely bootstrap a key infrastructure, which can then be used to secure ALL protocols through the lifetime of the network (ie not one-off), largely without admin involvement. Again, this is the security angle; I think this is a use case in itself, but other cases exist. 
> 
> Now, if this work simplifies just a single aspect of networking (such as security), we'd have made progress, and IMO it would be worthwhile. If we can simplify several components of networking in this way, and if we do this in a coherent way, then we have the potential to really create a largely "self-managing" network. But frankly, I prefer the bottom up approach, let's tackle one function at a time, small steps. Of course, having an overall goal in mind. 
> 
> Now, does this train of thought make sense at all? Dimitri? Rene? Others?  
> 
> Michael
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com
Cisco NSSTG Systems & Technology Architecture
SDN: Let me play with the network, mommy!


From nobody Thu Aug 28 08:37:13 2014
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From: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] AN and I2RS
Thread-Index: AQHPqNFdLNDwVygy1EC/ACq628yEAJu4EgsAgAokwACAAaSNgIAgyHYAgAA8c4CAADPxAIABRfGA
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 15:36:52 +0000
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Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9ferson_Campos_Nobre?= <jcnobre@inf.ufrgs.br>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
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On Aug 27, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com=
> wrote:

> On 28/08/2014 05:04, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:deanb@juniper.net]
>>> Sent: 27 August 2014 06:28
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> Cc: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre; anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
>>>=20
>>> Michael,
>>>=20
>>> I'm back to my normal schedule and catching up with emails, so a delaye=
d
>>> reply.
>>>=20
>>> I agree with many of the statements you made and I understand the goals=
 of
>>> ANIMA, but what protocols will ANIMA use for communication? That same
>>> question is asked by I2RS. What protocol to use between I2RS client and
>>> I2RS agent? From I2RS perspective, a single I2RS client can talk to mul=
tiple
>>> I2RS agents, so from a single client you can instruct multiple devices.=
 So you
>>> can instruct I2RS client to use OSPF and I2RS client will instruct all =
I2RS
>>> agents to configure OSPF.
>>=20
>> Which protocols to pick is the job of the working group. If a suitable p=
rotocol exists, we should of course not invent a new one.=20
>=20
> My thinking on this is that the nature of communication is a little diffe=
rent
> in AN than in all traditional management, monitoring or configuration
> solutions. It is really peer to peer (as mentioned in some recent mail
> with Dimitri, it is part of a closed-loop process). So the protocol
> carrying the communication really needs to be symmetrical rather than
> command-response.
>=20
> We did some analysis of existing protocols in
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03#section-3
> That perhaps needs to be further developed. Does I2RS have a statement
> of requirements for its protocol choice?

I'm just working on that draft what is needed from netmod and netconf wg, b=
ut we are thinking about using RESTCONF for I2RS and we have to figure out =
what would be the best way  for notification mechanism, as agents have to n=
otify clients about changes in the routing system.

Dean

>=20
>   Brian
>=20
>>> Please see more inline
>>>=20
>>> Dean
>>>=20
>>> On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Dean,
>>>>=20
>>>> To the relationship between ANIMA and I2RS:
>>>>=20
>>>> To me, the difference is simple, and relates to the interface between =
what
>>> I2RS calls the agent and the client :
>>>> - I2RS (as well as general SDN approaches) focus on guidance for the
>>> specific element in question. Example: "node x: for prefix y, set next =
hop z".
>>>> - In Autonomics, you do NOT provide guidance for a specific element, b=
ut
>>> to the entire network or a group of nodes. Example: "all BGP speakers:
>>> Prefer SP 1 over SP2". or "this network runs OSPF".
>>>> The way I see it, autonomics will set a default for the network, i2rs =
(and
>>> other node specific methods, including CLI, SNMP, etc) set a more speci=
fic
>>> guidance on a per node level.
>>>=20
>>> but you can use I2Rs achieve that. Of course, we can work on a complete=
ly
>>> new way to do it, but I believe that we have to look if there are some
>>> mechanisms available and improve them.
>>=20
>> And if there is an existing protocol that meets the specs, let's use it =
of course.=20
>>=20
>> Michael
>>=20
>>>> This requires conflict resolution.
>>>>=20
>>>> There are already a large number of ways to influence the behaviour of=
 a
>>> node: Netconf, CLI, SNMP, i2rs, ...). With autonomics, there are two mo=
re:
>>>> - the autonomic default behaviour of a node
>>>> - the same, but influenced by intent, which is a network wide policy
>>>> Anything node specific (above list) overrides the network wide behavio=
ur.
>>>>=20
>>>> This way, autonomics can set a network wide default behaviour, possibl=
y
>>> controlled by intent, and i2rs and the other mechanisms define exceptio=
ns
>>> where needed.
>>>=20
>>> in i2rs you have two layers one if i2rs client and one is i2rs agent. S=
o I can
>>> see that i2rs client translates intent into actions that are enforced b=
y i2rs
>>> agent on the device.
>>>> This is similar to the behaviour of an IGP: The default IGP sets the
>>>> general routing, a local static route for example provides a local
>>>> override. (Note well: ... and is a really good way to mess up an
>>>> otherwise stable and deterministic network)
>>> :-)
>>>=20
>>>> See also what I wrote in NMRG:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nmrg/current/msg01580.html
>>>>=20
>>>> [side question: To me it is clear that autonomics / intent are
>>>> overridden by all node specific mechanisms. But I don't have clear how
>>>> those are prioritised between themselves? The i2rs architecture doc
>>>> makes a vague statement that " policy can determine whether Local
>>>> Config overrides a particular I2RS client's request or vice versa."
>>>> Personally I think there should be a pre-defined priority list, but
>>>> that's for another discussion.]
>>>>=20
>>>> Now, autonomics as well as i2rs needs an agent for this messaging. So =
far, I
>>> see that as a separate agent, since the interactions may be different; =
but,
>>> need to think more about that. Compare figure 1 of draft-ietf-i2rs-
>>> architecture-05 with figure 1 of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-
>>> definitions-01. The autonomic user agent is similar to the i2rs agent. =
It
>>> interprets intent, and does the messaging for external feedback loops. =
How
>>> would you see that?
>>> Yes, I agree with that, but how will the autonomic agent communicate th=
e
>>> intent to the device? Autonomic agent will have to configure the device=
. Do
>>> you see that autonomic agent will write into persistent data storage on=
 the
>>> device or transient
>>>=20
>>>> Does the above make sense? Should we maybe include a statement like
>>> this in the ANIMA charter?
>>> We have to think about how the intent is communicated to the device and
>>> how to store the result of the intent.
>>>> More inline...
>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dean
>>>>> Bogdanovic
>>>>> Sent: 05 August 2014 17:45
>>>>> To: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre
>>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS
>>>>>=20
>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Do you mean the I2RS agent? For me it seems the Autonomic
>>> Networking
>>>>>> Service Agent is closer to the I2RS agent (not the routing element
>>>>>> as a whole). However, considering this means that the AN agent would
>>>>>> need to speak the I2RS protocol.
>>>>> Adding intelligence to I2RS agent is something very desirable, as the
>>>>> multiple I2RS clients will talk to the same I2RS agent and the agent
>>>>> will have to make decisions, without having always connection to the
>>>>> client. For I2RS we are considering NETCONF/RESTCONF as a protocol.
>>>>> Another protocol that is interesting for AN is DLEP
>>>>> (draft-ietf-manet-dlep- 05). It provides discovery and information
>>> collection mechanism about links.
>>>> I'm not sure whether the agent should do conflict resolution. Conflict=
s
>>> have to be resolved between a wide range of "configuration" models,
>>> should thus sit logically below all those agents. In my head, there is =
an
>>> agent per approach, one for i2rs, one for AN, one for CLI, ... and belo=
w that
>>> is conflict resolution.
>>>=20
>>> I'm not sure about one agent per approach. I see more that AN can use I=
2RS
>>> agent or some other agent to change the behavior of the device.
>>>>>>> We could also wonder whether I2RS isn't a nice AN use case, but
>>>>>>> it's very complex - the I2RS WG itself is deep into multiple use
>>>>>>> case analysis and information model development - to say it
>>>>>>> bluntly, ANIMA doesn't need that much complexity right now ;-).
>>>>> Well, AN needs to talk to routing system to collect information. So
>>>>> instead of creating a parallel mechanism, why not to join forces with
>>>>> I2RS and find if other requirements are needed to satisfy AN use case=
s.
>>>> I can see an autonomic service agent having to get routing info from t=
he
>>> box, but that is an internal mechanism. I do not right now see a case w=
here
>>> an autonomic service agent would talk to an i2rs agent on another box. =
I
>>> would rather see the AN agents on both boxes talk to each other, and th=
e
>>> interface to the routing system being internal to that box. Thoughts?
>>>=20
>>> that makes sense. please see my above comment on this.
>>>=20
>>> Dean
>>>=20
>>>>>> BTW, I think the I2RS use case requirements I-D
>>>>>> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hares-i2rs-usecase-reqs-summary-00
>>>>>> ) can be an example for an integrated use case I-D for ANIMA. They
>>>>>> also have several use cases and this I-D gives a consistent view of
>>>>>> them regarding the WG (e.g., classes of use cases).
>>>>> I agree with Jeferson on this and based on such a draft we can see if
>>>>> there is any overlap with I2RS requirements.
>>>> Need to read that draft. But I would return to my previous statement: =
AN
>>> is not about direct node programming, but to a large extent about horiz=
ontal
>>> interfaces, with a minimal northbound interface. Many use cases can be
>>> solved in either way. AN is specifically looking at use cases where hor=
izontal
>>> communication is a MUST or a big advantage.
>>>> Expressed differently: If i2rs has a use case and a good, generally ac=
cepted
>>> solution for that use case, then maybe it's not a good use case for AN =
to start
>>> with. AN should focus on use cases where distribution (ie horizontal
>>> communication) is a big advantage or even a MUST.
>>>> The AN bootstrap use case is a good example: you can't solve that thro=
ugh
>>> a northbound method like i2rs, because it's exactly about deriving the =
key
>>> material to establish this northbound communication in the first place.
>>> ANIMA should focus on that type of use case initially, I think.
>>>> Michael
>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I think it is far too soon to even hypothetically consider whether
>>>>>>> I2RS and AN have overlapping protocol requirements. I2RS has a line
>>>>>>> its charter:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding
>>>>>>>> languages against the requirements.
>>>>>>> but I don't see any sign of an active draft on that topic.
>>>>>> Probably it would be also good to have this kind of analysis for
>>>>>> ANIMA. For example, an alternative for CDNP was mentioned during the
>>>>>> BoF, thus at least the IETF alternatives protocols/mechanisms (if
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> exist) should be cited in the ANIMA I-Ds.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to talk with any of the I2RS
>>>>>>> protagonists during the IETF. If anybody here can comment further,
>>>>>>> please do so.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>  Brian
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>=20
>=20


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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 07:49:25 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view.
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On 28/08/2014 19:15, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> Michael,
> 
> This again looks like good analysis, but i wonder if we also need
> to restate the operator visible problems that ultimately lead to
> these conclusions better represented in the charter.

Agreed, that aspect of the problem statement is missing in the charter.
I promised during the call yesterday to make the next update of the
charter with this point and some others, and also to check back through
the numerous emails to see if all the issues have been picked up.
This will take a day or two

Regards
   Brian

> The list of problems and target solutions or ANIMA the way i see
> it is as follows: This could be separated into a list of problems
> and another list of solution areas:
> 
> - Manual labour intensive device/network bootstrap
>   -> want secure zero touch bootstrap.
> 
> - Fragile, config dependent, insecure NOC and/or SDN OAM connectivity
>   -> want secure, zero touch, reliable OAM connectivity for NOC/SDN
> 
> - High cost/risk in operating rich set of network services due to siloed,
>   inconsistent re-implementation of common communications/security functions.
>   -> want security, consistency though common functions
> 
> - Expensive, per-device orchestration needed due to lack of
>   network wide OAM interface to services (intent).
>   -> want in-network services with network wide intent/reporting
>      interface to NOC.
> 
> - Lack of in-network control-loops for services outsources dynamic
>   services adaptation to NOC - scale, performance, availability issues.
>   -> Want common infrastructure components to self-orchestrate
>      in network control loops. Want to build limited set of such
>      self orchestrating services/agents.
> 
> Cheers
>     Toerless
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 08:41:58PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> It is fairly clear that the charter isn't good enough yet, we had too many comments about this. Can we take a step back, look at the big picture, see whether we agree on that level, and THEN dive back down to writing something down? 
>>
>> Here is how I would phrase it, informally. Train of thought: 
>>
>> 1) Independent processes: Networks today have a number of processes that run distributed, and do things on their own. The admin monitors, and takes care of exceptions, but by and large these processes run on their own in the network. (I call that "autonomic", but the term itself has raised discussions, so let's leave that discussion for later, to stay focused). Examples are all the IGPs, VRRP, etc. 
>>
>> 2) Lack of common infrastructure: All those processes run independently of each other. Each of them has its own way to communicate, manage policy (if applicable), secure itself, etc. This is where I am coming from: I used to work in infrastructure security, and the fact that you have to secure each protocol independently, each with its own key scheme, algorithms, etc is a major pain in operating networks today. This is the security angle, but other angles exist, for example monitoring, reporting, general policy, etc. 
>>
>> The above to me is the problem statement. Why is that a problem that needs fixing? Because the operational cost of securing a network is a problem. And when opex is reduced, security suffers. Others may chime in with similar stories from their area of expertise, but I think it's a pretty generic issue. 
>>
>> The goal then is: 
>>
>> 3) Finding common infrastructure: Assume we accept for a moment that the lack of common functions across a network is an issue, can this be simplified? Can we define one, simple way to manage for example the key material for all the protocols, in one go? We tried to find a solution and came up with draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures; that draft describes how to securely bootstrap a key infrastructure, which can then be used to secure ALL protocols through the lifetime of the network (ie not one-off), largely without admin involvement. Again, this is the security angle; I think this is a use case in itself, but other cases exist. 
>>
>> Now, if this work simplifies just a single aspect of networking (such as security), we'd have made progress, and IMO it would be worthwhile. If we can simplify several components of networking in this way, and if we do this in a coherent way, then we have the potential to really create a largely "self-managing" network. But frankly, I prefer the bottom up approach, let's tackle one function at a time, small steps. Of course, having an overall goal in mind. 
>>
>> Now, does this train of thought make sense at all? Dimitri? Rene? Others?  
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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From: "Fuyu (Eleven)" <eleven.fuyu@huawei.com>
To: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Cc: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter)
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Hi Dean,

>>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via=20
>>> cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow =
monitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achi=
eve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subse=
quently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of=
 these actions is part of the execution.
>>=20
>> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement segm=
ent (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurement. T=
hen analytics and filtration from this information is needed to enable the =
policy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the QoS.
>I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to do anal=
ysis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send analyzed =
information to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that the probes =
would be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constraint environm=
ent and data analytics is computationally expensive. This information can b=
e used for other cases, not just for QoS.

What use cases ? Would you please take an example?

Cheers
Yu

>> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitoring us=
e cases.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:deanb@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:21 AM
To: Fuyu (Eleven)
Cc: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Toerless Eckert; anima@ietf.org; Shen=
g Jiang
Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charte=
r)

Yu
On Aug 26, 2014, at 4:26 AM, Fuyu (Eleven) <eleven.fuyu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Dimitri and all,
>=20
>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via=20
>> cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow m=
onitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achie=
ve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subseq=
uently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of =
these actions is part of the execution.
>=20
> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement segme=
nt (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurement. Th=
en analytics and filtration from this information is needed to enable the p=
olicy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the QoS.
I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to do analy=
sis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send analyzed i=
nformation to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that the probes w=
ould be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constraint environme=
nt and data analytics is computationally expensive. This information can be=
 used for other cases, not just for QoS.

> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitoring use=
 cases.
>=20
> BR
> Yu
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:11 AM
> To: Toerless Eckert
> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for=20
> charter)
>=20
> Toerless,
>=20
> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cros=
s-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitori=
ng, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve what=
 can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subsequently =
enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of these a=
ctions is part of the execution.
>=20
> I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. information out =
of traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in addition to source of information=
 provided/exchanged by current protocols (note: there are use cases that ca=
n limit their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA would have to =
work on metrology and related infrastructure, one can rely on existing sour=
ces, feeders, etc.
>=20
> The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a "client" of s=
uch information but can't be client of close-loop state derivation and cons=
istent state to action mapping because this is what AN is all about).
>=20
> Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which would need c=
larification in the charter-- is that it misses (referring to my previous e=
mail on the AN dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms of r=
ealization it assumes as prerequisite the transformation and homogeneizatio=
n of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the gain in opera=
tional/control logic while minimizing the infrastructure change (SDN looks =
all the contrary to me).
>=20
> Thanks,
> -d.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:07 PM
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for
>> charter)
>>=20
>> Dimitri,
>>=20
>> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call=20
>> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below):
>>=20
>> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information from=20
>> the network, and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sure=20
>> what aspects are covered where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of
>> (IETF) gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wonder=20
>> how we would best justify of taking on that work in Anima:
>>=20
>> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/"SDN"
>> solution, with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using=20
>> methods like NETFLIX and others. And potentially having a hierarchy=20
>> of such controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental stages=20
>> of
>> pre- analytics.
>>=20
>> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarchy=20
>> of information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to=20
>> autonomously orchestrate the active components in that model -=20
>> hopefully as agents inside the network. But without some pre-existing=20
>> model, i think we would have to do a lot more work in Anima than just=20
>> those autonomic aspects - we might need to come up with the model=20
>> first. A model that maybe better is defined first non-autonomic by a=20
>> better group of experts in that subjet matter ?
>>=20
>> Cheers
>>    Toerless
>>=20
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri
>> (Dimitri)
>> wrote:
>>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion:
>>>=20
>>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes
>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing=20
>> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics=20
>> would help automating/adapting such task with current practices).
>>>=20
>>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic=20
>>> out
>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL,=20
>> routing adjacencies or others.
>>>=20
>>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure
>>>=20
>>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological
>> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that=20
>> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that=20
>> an alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in=20
>> propagation of routing information.
>>>=20
>>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process=20
>>> by
>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be=20
>> measured and estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of ou=
tages.
>>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" <dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] AN and I2RS
Thread-Index: AQHPqNFdLNDwVygy1EC/ACq628yEAJu4EgsAgAokwACAAaSNgIAgyHYAgAAa64CAADPyAIAEJqPA
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 08:10:50 +1200
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Subject: [Anima] [Fwd: I-D Action: draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.txt]
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.txt
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 00:07:52 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Network Management Research Group Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Gap Analysis for Autonomic Networking
        Authors         : Sheng Jiang
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Michael H. Behringer
	Filename        : draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2014-08-30

Abstract:
   This document summarises a problem statement for an IP-based
   autonomic network that is mainly based on distributed network
   devices.  The document reviews the history and current status of
   autonomic aspects of IP networks.  It then reviews the current
   network management style, which is still heavily depending on human
   administrators.  Finally the document describes the general gaps
   between the ideal autonomic network concept and the current network
   abilities.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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