From nobody Mon Sep 1 10:04:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558081A03C0 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 10:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x7c4nGZj6NZg for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 10:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B091C1A03C9 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 10:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 4A788A7DFC218; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:04:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s81H4AtX000965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2014 19:04:20 +0200 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.52]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 19:03:54 +0200 From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" To: Brian E Carpenter , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view. Thread-Index: Ac+/nGuJzQiwxEsqRPOJtvckcxLiHAC4rRuAABpSAoAAUnMHMA== Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:03:49 +0000 Message-ID: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344773C@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C22F07@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <20140828071547.GA26754@cisco.com> <53FF87C5.2050609@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <53FF87C5.2050609@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/546aCHSL3pR9a5TCK6S9t8ki6n4 Cc: "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view. X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 17:04:32 -0000 I agree. Could take a look if needed. Several aspects have been discussed o= n this that could help improving the initial/motivation part of the charter= . There is also a clarification to bring in the charter (also in this gap ana= lysis doc) " The task of autonomic networking is to build up individual autonomic decision processes that could properly combine to respond to every type of network event. " There is a distinction to be made between "local" action and "individual" d= ecision process. The latter should be avoided as we refer to cooperative de= cision process (among AN agents) translated locally into actions and their = enforcement. Thanks, -dimitri. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpente= r > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 9:49 PM > To: Toerless Eckert > Cc: anima@ietf.org; Michael Behringer (mbehring) > Subject: Re: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view. >=20 > On 28/08/2014 19:15, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > Michael, > > > > This again looks like good analysis, but i wonder if we also need to > > restate the operator visible problems that ultimately lead to these > > conclusions better represented in the charter. >=20 > Agreed, that aspect of the problem statement is missing in the charter. > I promised during the call yesterday to make the next update of the > charter with this point and some others, and also to check back through > the numerous emails to see if all the issues have been picked up. > This will take a day or two >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > > The list of problems and target solutions or ANIMA the way i see it is > > as follows: This could be separated into a list of problems and > > another list of solution areas: > > > > - Manual labour intensive device/network bootstrap > > -> want secure zero touch bootstrap. > > > > - Fragile, config dependent, insecure NOC and/or SDN OAM connectivity > > -> want secure, zero touch, reliable OAM connectivity for NOC/SDN > > > > - High cost/risk in operating rich set of network services due to > siloed, > > inconsistent re-implementation of common communications/security > functions. > > -> want security, consistency though common functions > > > > - Expensive, per-device orchestration needed due to lack of > > network wide OAM interface to services (intent). > > -> want in-network services with network wide intent/reporting > > interface to NOC. > > > > - Lack of in-network control-loops for services outsources dynamic > > services adaptation to NOC - scale, performance, availability issues. > > -> Want common infrastructure components to self-orchestrate > > in network control loops. Want to build limited set of such > > self orchestrating services/agents. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 08:41:58PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) > wrote: > >> It is fairly clear that the charter isn't good enough yet, we had too > many comments about this. Can we take a step back, look at the big > picture, see whether we agree on that level, and THEN dive back down to > writing something down? > >> > >> Here is how I would phrase it, informally. Train of thought: > >> > >> 1) Independent processes: Networks today have a number of processes > that run distributed, and do things on their own. The admin monitors, and > takes care of exceptions, but by and large these processes run on their > own in the network. (I call that "autonomic", but the term itself has > raised discussions, so let's leave that discussion for later, to stay > focused). Examples are all the IGPs, VRRP, etc. > >> > >> 2) Lack of common infrastructure: All those processes run independentl= y > of each other. Each of them has its own way to communicate, manage policy > (if applicable), secure itself, etc. This is where I am coming from: I > used to work in infrastructure security, and the fact that you have to > secure each protocol independently, each with its own key scheme, > algorithms, etc is a major pain in operating networks today. This is the > security angle, but other angles exist, for example monitoring, reporting= , > general policy, etc. > >> > >> The above to me is the problem statement. Why is that a problem that > needs fixing? Because the operational cost of securing a network is a > problem. And when opex is reduced, security suffers. Others may chime in > with similar stories from their area of expertise, but I think it's a > pretty generic issue. > >> > >> The goal then is: > >> > >> 3) Finding common infrastructure: Assume we accept for a moment that > the lack of common functions across a network is an issue, can this be > simplified? Can we define one, simple way to manage for example the key > material for all the protocols, in one go? We tried to find a solution an= d > came up with draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures; that draft > describes how to securely bootstrap a key infrastructure, which can then > be used to secure ALL protocols through the lifetime of the network (ie > not one-off), largely without admin involvement. Again, this is the > security angle; I think this is a use case in itself, but other cases > exist. > >> > >> Now, if this work simplifies just a single aspect of networking (such > as security), we'd have made progress, and IMO it would be worthwhile. If > we can simplify several components of networking in this way, and if we d= o > this in a coherent way, then we have the potential to really create a > largely "self-managing" network. But frankly, I prefer the bottom up > approach, let's tackle one function at a time, small steps. Of course, > having an overall goal in mind. > >> > >> Now, does this train of thought make sense at all? Dimitri? Rene? > Others? > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Anima mailing list > >> Anima@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Mon Sep 1 18:32:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8F91A6F42 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 18:32:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TYRpdGHEMJSe for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 18:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3740E1A6F40 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 18:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMA04136; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 01:32:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 02:32:42 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.78]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 09:32:38 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Brian E Carpenter , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view. Thread-Index: Ac+/nGuJzQiwxEsqRPOJtvckcxLiHACsGnWAABpSAYAAw2HWgAAh7Onw Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 01:32:37 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF134E2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C22F07@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <20140828071547.GA26754@cisco.com> <53FF87C5.2050609@gmail.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344773C@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344773C@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.145] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/m8QL7gDcAkTUCKuFljzIj_IMTNg Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] What we want to achieve - personal view. X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 01:32:47 -0000 PlRoZXJlIGlzIGFsc28gYSBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9uIHRvIGJyaW5nIGluIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyIChh bHNvIGluIHRoaXMgZ2FwIGFuYWx5c2lzDQo+ZG9jKQ0KPiIgVGhlIHRhc2sgb2YgYXV0b25vbWlj IG5ldHdvcmtpbmcgaXMgdG8gYnVpbGQgdXAgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBhdXRvbm9taWMNCj4gIGRlY2lz aW9uIHByb2Nlc3NlcyB0aGF0IGNvdWxkIHByb3Blcmx5IGNvbWJpbmUgdG8gcmVzcG9uZCB0byBl dmVyeQ0KPiAgdHlwZSBvZiBuZXR3b3JrIGV2ZW50LiAiDQo+DQo+VGhlcmUgaXMgYSBkaXN0aW5j dGlvbiB0byBiZSBtYWRlIGJldHdlZW4gImxvY2FsIiBhY3Rpb24gYW5kICJpbmRpdmlkdWFsIg0K PmRlY2lzaW9uIHByb2Nlc3MuIFRoZSBsYXR0ZXIgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGF2b2lkZWQgYXMgd2UgcmVm ZXIgdG8gY29vcGVyYXRpdmUNCj5kZWNpc2lvbiBwcm9jZXNzIChhbW9uZyBBTiBhZ2VudHMpIHRy YW5zbGF0ZWQgbG9jYWxseSBpbnRvIGFjdGlvbnMgYW5kIHRoZWlyDQo+ZW5mb3JjZW1lbnQuDQoN 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Cj4+ID4+IE1pY2hhZWwNCj4+ID4+DQo+PiA+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gPj4gQW5pbWEgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+PiA+PiBBbmlt YUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9h bmltYQ0KPj4gPg0KPj4NCj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQo+PiBBbmltYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IEFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiBo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo+DQo+X19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5BbmltYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QNCj5BbmltYUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vYW5pbWENCg== From nobody Mon Sep 1 18:39:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C9A1A6F41 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 18:38:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: 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[111.69.198.229]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ou6sm2144819pbb.88.2014.09.01.18.38.55 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Sep 2014 18:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 13:39:14 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/EVydXkpYbbzqlONReaelw7J5nAw Subject: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 01:38:59 -0000 Hi, After the UCAN BOF I was asked to write an article for the IETF Journal. This will be a signed article that doesn't claim to represent anyody's opinion but mine, but I would be very happy to receive comments on the draft during the next week. I've borrowed material from the BOF poster and from the draft charter. The draft article is in the wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/JournalArticle/IETFJ-UCAN.pdf If you are not familiar with the journal, see http://www.internetsociety.org/publications/ietf-journal "The articles published in the IETF Journal are not intended to reflect the opinions or the position of the IETF or the Internet Society." Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Tue Sep 2 00:00:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590391A001C for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 00:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y7gbte2gDQPf for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 00:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from discretix.com (mail.discretix.com [192.116.217.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5EA21A004E for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 23:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Internal Mail-Server by mail.discretix.com (envelope-from Leo.Dorrendorf@discretix.com) with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 2 Sep 2014 09:57:53 +0300 Received: from EXCHANGE2.discretix.com ([fe80::5c30:e541:eba1:ac0c]) by EXCHANGE2.discretix.com ([fe80::5c30:e541:eba1:ac0c%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 09:56:19 +0300 From: Leo Dorrendorf To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal Thread-Index: AQHPxk6xUTKjDbh1PkyIbv96Gj87RpvtaJfw Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 06:56:18 +0000 Message-ID: <103BE3CE0C5F5646936FBC53A2C7511F1BC60EF1@EXCHANGE2.discretix.com> References: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US, he-IL Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.116.217.183] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/rjkvafrxYJn7lSbv2yqOEUgj6kc Subject: Re: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 07:00:44 -0000 Hi Brian, Well-written and very clear.=20 Perhaps you could avoid the biological definition of "autonomic" and use th= e definition found in the Wikipedia article on autonomic computing:=20 "Autonomic computing refers to the self-managing characteristics of distrib= uted computing resources, adapting to unpredictable changes while hiding in= trinsic complexity to operators and users." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_computing Best regards, Leo Dorrendorf. -----Original Message----- From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 4:39 AM To: anima@ietf.org Subject: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal Hi, After the UCAN BOF I was asked to write an article for the IETF Journal. This will be a signed article that doesn't claim to represent anyody's opin= ion but mine, but I would be very happy to receive comments on the draft du= ring the next week. I've borrowed material from the BOF poster and from the= draft charter. The draft article is in the wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/JournalArticl= e/IETFJ-UCAN.pdf If you are not familiar with the journal, see http://www.internetsociety.or= g/publications/ietf-journal "The articles published in the IETF Journal are not intended to reflect the= opinions or the position of the IETF or the Internet Society." Regards Brian Carpenter _______________________________________________ Anima mailing list Anima@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Tue Sep 2 02:10:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A79E1A01BA for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 02:10:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rR1HqLvJXocX for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 02:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0B611A01AE for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 02:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMA41521; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 09:10:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 10:10:19 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.78]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 17:10:16 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal Thread-Index: AQHPxk6vxQiPCMLLaEyhQE0vnUJRo5vtjctw Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 09:10:15 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF1363D@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.145] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 2 Sep 2014 18:48:37 +0000 From: Dean Bogdanovic To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" Thread-Topic: [Anima] AN and I2RS Thread-Index: AQHPqNFdLNDwVygy1EC/ACq628yEAJu4EgsAgAokwACAAaSNgIAgyHYAgAA8c4CAADPxAIAEfuQAgATYSAA= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 18:48:37 +0000 Message-ID: <33497A55-8E4C-46C8-AA25-12B1939C11CE@juniper.net> References: <53D3A616.5090401@gmail.com> <66411F82-8B13-4D9D-8CE3-B5CBDD948DEA@juniper.net> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C0277B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <73B6A85E-6DE9-43B0-8491-5BC7797F1900@juniper.net> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C26A03@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <53FE3B28.2030308@gmail.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344640A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344640A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;UriScan:; x-forefront-prvs: 0322B4EDE1 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(13464003)(164054003)(24454002)(51704005)(479174003)(377454003)(199003)(189002)(62966002)(101416001)(50986999)(95666004)(90102001)(107046002)(81342001)(80022001)(31966008)(99286002)(76176999)(106356001)(106116001)(15975445006)(110136001)(64706001)(36756003)(92566001)(15202345003)(66066001)(82746002)(104166001)(77156001)(93886004)(85306004)(33656002)(21056001)(2656002)(89996001)(88136002)(50226001)(83072002)(93916002)(85852003)(74662001)(83716003)(87286001)(87936001)(74502001)(99396002)(77096002)(105586002)(83322001)(19580405001)(4396001)(92726001)(19580395003)(81542001)(86362001)(20776003)(57306001)(46102001)(79102001)(77982001)(76482001)(104396001); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:BN1PR05MB421; H:BN1PR05MB424.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <5EEFA80E6CE24640870726DEF27D2673@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/tmTNNs25D4CKnWnaDTsNnLtwOaw Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9ferson_Campos_Nobre?= , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 18:48:43 -0000 Dimitri, Autonomic agent has to receive intent, communicate with other devices and d= evice where it is located. All this communication is done via interface. So= to communicate with the local device, for notifications and config changes= , what is the best way to do it? I2RS is looking to provide an interface ov= er which notifications, as well config changes can be sent. >From architectural pov, autonomic agent is I2RS client. It is perfectly fin= e that both are on the same device. Dean On Aug 30, 2014, at 12:49 PM, "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" wrote: > The goal of I2RS is different as I see its architecture doc. I2RS approac= h is "information-driven" (link together different information bases, monit= oring, topology, routing, etc. descriptors), I2RS agents push descriptions = to an entity which relates all this information together. There is an impli= cit assumption behind IR2S assumes that the structure of a model is fixed >=20 > AN agents do not decide from full information acquisition but based on co= operation logic. This leads to a completely different class of language (or= protocol) among agents. Such protocol comprises exchange beliefs, goals, a= ctions, etc. >=20 > Thanks, > -dimitri. >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpent= er >> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 10:10 PM >> To: Dean Bogdanovic >> Cc: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre; anima@ietf.org; Michael Behringer (mbehring= ) >> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS >>=20 >> On 28/08/2014 05:04, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:deanb@juniper.net] >>>> Sent: 27 August 2014 06:28 >>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) >>>> Cc: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre; anima@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS >>>>=20 >>>> Michael, >>>>=20 >>>> I'm back to my normal schedule and catching up with emails, so a >>>> delayed reply. >>>>=20 >>>> I agree with many of the statements you made and I understand the >>>> goals of ANIMA, but what protocols will ANIMA use for communication? >>>> That same question is asked by I2RS. What protocol to use between >>>> I2RS client and I2RS agent? From I2RS perspective, a single I2RS >>>> client can talk to multiple I2RS agents, so from a single client you >>>> can instruct multiple devices. So you can instruct I2RS client to use >>>> OSPF and I2RS client will instruct all I2RS agents to configure OSPF. >>>=20 >>> Which protocols to pick is the job of the working group. If a suitable >> protocol exists, we should of course not invent a new one. >>=20 >> My thinking on this is that the nature of communication is a little >> different in AN than in all traditional management, monitoring or >> configuration solutions. It is really peer to peer (as mentioned in some >> recent mail with Dimitri, it is part of a closed-loop process). So the >> protocol carrying the communication really needs to be symmetrical rathe= r >> than command-response. >>=20 >> We did some analysis of existing protocols in >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03#section-= 3 >> That perhaps needs to be further developed. Does I2RS have a statement o= f >> requirements for its protocol choice? >>=20 >> Brian >>=20 >>>> Please see more inline >>>>=20 >>>> Dean >>>>=20 >>>> On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Dean, >>>>>=20 >>>>> To the relationship between ANIMA and I2RS: >>>>>=20 >>>>> To me, the difference is simple, and relates to the interface >>>>> between what >>>> I2RS calls the agent and the client : >>>>> - I2RS (as well as general SDN approaches) focus on guidance for the >>>> specific element in question. Example: "node x: for prefix y, set next >> hop z". >>>>> - In Autonomics, you do NOT provide guidance for a specific element, >>>>> but >>>> to the entire network or a group of nodes. Example: "all BGP speakers: >>>> Prefer SP 1 over SP2". or "this network runs OSPF". >>>>> The way I see it, autonomics will set a default for the network, >>>>> i2rs (and >>>> other node specific methods, including CLI, SNMP, etc) set a more >>>> specific guidance on a per node level. >>>>=20 >>>> but you can use I2Rs achieve that. Of course, we can work on a >>>> completely new way to do it, but I believe that we have to look if >>>> there are some mechanisms available and improve them. >>>=20 >>> And if there is an existing protocol that meets the specs, let's use it >> of course. >>>=20 >>> Michael >>>=20 >>>>> This requires conflict resolution. >>>>>=20 >>>>> There are already a large number of ways to influence the behaviour >>>>> of a >>>> node: Netconf, CLI, SNMP, i2rs, ...). With autonomics, there are two >> more: >>>>> - the autonomic default behaviour of a node >>>>> - the same, but influenced by intent, which is a network wide policy >>>>> Anything node specific (above list) overrides the network wide >> behaviour. >>>>>=20 >>>>> This way, autonomics can set a network wide default behaviour, >>>>> possibly >>>> controlled by intent, and i2rs and the other mechanisms define >>>> exceptions where needed. >>>>=20 >>>> in i2rs you have two layers one if i2rs client and one is i2rs agent. >>>> So I can see that i2rs client translates intent into actions that are >>>> enforced by i2rs agent on the device. >>>>> This is similar to the behaviour of an IGP: The default IGP sets the >>>>> general routing, a local static route for example provides a local >>>>> override. (Note well: ... and is a really good way to mess up an >>>>> otherwise stable and deterministic network) >>>> :-) >>>>=20 >>>>> See also what I wrote in NMRG: >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nmrg/current/msg01580.html >>>>>=20 >>>>> [side question: To me it is clear that autonomics / intent are >>>>> overridden by all node specific mechanisms. But I don't have clear >>>>> how those are prioritised between themselves? The i2rs architecture >>>>> doc makes a vague statement that " policy can determine whether >>>>> Local Config overrides a particular I2RS client's request or vice >> versa." >>>>> Personally I think there should be a pre-defined priority list, but >>>>> that's for another discussion.] >>>>>=20 >>>>> Now, autonomics as well as i2rs needs an agent for this messaging. >>>>> So far, I >>>> see that as a separate agent, since the interactions may be >>>> different; but, need to think more about that. Compare figure 1 of >>>> draft-ietf-i2rs- >>>> architecture-05 with figure 1 of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network- >>>> definitions-01. The autonomic user agent is similar to the i2rs >>>> agent. It interprets intent, and does the messaging for external >>>> feedback loops. How would you see that? >>>> Yes, I agree with that, but how will the autonomic agent communicate >>>> the intent to the device? Autonomic agent will have to configure the >>>> device. Do you see that autonomic agent will write into persistent >>>> data storage on the device or transient >>>>=20 >>>>> Does the above make sense? Should we maybe include a statement like >>>> this in the ANIMA charter? >>>> We have to think about how the intent is communicated to the device >>>> and how to store the result of the intent. >>>>> More inline... >>>>>=20 >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dean >>>>>> Bogdanovic >>>>>> Sent: 05 August 2014 17:45 >>>>>> To: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre >>>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] AN and I2RS >>>>>>=20 >>>>> [...] >>>>>>> Do you mean the I2RS agent? For me it seems the Autonomic >>>> Networking >>>>>>> Service Agent is closer to the I2RS agent (not the routing element >>>>>>> as a whole). However, considering this means that the AN agent >>>>>>> would need to speak the I2RS protocol. >>>>>> Adding intelligence to I2RS agent is something very desirable, as >>>>>> the multiple I2RS clients will talk to the same I2RS agent and the >>>>>> agent will have to make decisions, without having always connection >>>>>> to the client. For I2RS we are considering NETCONF/RESTCONF as a >> protocol. >>>>>> Another protocol that is interesting for AN is DLEP >>>>>> (draft-ietf-manet-dlep- 05). It provides discovery and information >>>> collection mechanism about links. >>>>> I'm not sure whether the agent should do conflict resolution. >>>>> Conflicts >>>> have to be resolved between a wide range of "configuration" models, >>>> should thus sit logically below all those agents. In my head, there >>>> is an agent per approach, one for i2rs, one for AN, one for CLI, ... >>>> and below that is conflict resolution. >>>>=20 >>>> I'm not sure about one agent per approach. I see more that AN can use >>>> I2RS agent or some other agent to change the behavior of the device. >>>>>>>> We could also wonder whether I2RS isn't a nice AN use case, but >>>>>>>> it's very complex - the I2RS WG itself is deep into multiple use >>>>>>>> case analysis and information model development - to say it >>>>>>>> bluntly, ANIMA doesn't need that much complexity right now ;-). >>>>>> Well, AN needs to talk to routing system to collect information. So >>>>>> instead of creating a parallel mechanism, why not to join forces >>>>>> with I2RS and find if other requirements are needed to satisfy AN us= e >> cases. >>>>> I can see an autonomic service agent having to get routing info from >>>>> the >>>> box, but that is an internal mechanism. I do not right now see a case >>>> where an autonomic service agent would talk to an i2rs agent on >>>> another box. I would rather see the AN agents on both boxes talk to >>>> each other, and the interface to the routing system being internal to >> that box. Thoughts? >>>>=20 >>>> that makes sense. please see my above comment on this. >>>>=20 >>>> Dean >>>>=20 >>>>>>> BTW, I think the I2RS use case requirements I-D >>>>>>> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hares-i2rs-usecase-reqs-summary- >>>>>>> 00 >>>>>>> ) can be an example for an integrated use case I-D for ANIMA. They >>>>>>> also have several use cases and this I-D gives a consistent view >>>>>>> of them regarding the WG (e.g., classes of use cases). >>>>>> I agree with Jeferson on this and based on such a draft we can see >>>>>> if there is any overlap with I2RS requirements. >>>>> Need to read that draft. But I would return to my previous >>>>> statement: AN >>>> is not about direct node programming, but to a large extent about >>>> horizontal interfaces, with a minimal northbound interface. Many use >>>> cases can be solved in either way. AN is specifically looking at use >>>> cases where horizontal communication is a MUST or a big advantage. >>>>> Expressed differently: If i2rs has a use case and a good, generally >>>>> accepted >>>> solution for that use case, then maybe it's not a good use case for >>>> AN to start with. AN should focus on use cases where distribution (ie >>>> horizontal >>>> communication) is a big advantage or even a MUST. >>>>> The AN bootstrap use case is a good example: you can't solve that >>>>> through >>>> a northbound method like i2rs, because it's exactly about deriving >>>> the key material to establish this northbound communication in the >> first place. >>>> ANIMA should focus on that type of use case initially, I think. >>>>> Michael >>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I think it is far too soon to even hypothetically consider >>>>>>>> whether I2RS and AN have overlapping protocol requirements. I2RS >>>>>>>> has a line its charter: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding >>>>>>>>> languages against the requirements. >>>>>>>> but I don't see any sign of an active draft on that topic. >>>>>>> Probably it would be also good to have this kind of analysis for >>>>>>> ANIMA. For example, an alternative for CDNP was mentioned during >>>>>>> the BoF, thus at least the IETF alternatives protocols/mechanisms >>>>>>> (if they >>>>>>> exist) should be cited in the ANIMA I-Ds. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to talk with any of the I2RS >>>>>>>> protagonists during the IETF. If anybody here can comment >>>>>>>> further, please do so. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Anima mailing list >>>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Anima mailing list >>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Anima mailing list >>>>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Tue Sep 2 12:07:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78431A885D for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 12:07:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FeE8Ti_EtlGO for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 12:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (dns-bn1lp0143.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.143]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D8D31A884C for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 12:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BN1PR05MB424.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.58.148) by BN1PR05MB421.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.58.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1019.16; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 19:07:24 +0000 Received: from BN1PR05MB424.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.8.251]) by BN1PR05MB424.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.8.230]) with mapi id 15.00.1019.015; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 19:07:24 +0000 From: Dean Bogdanovic To: "Fuyu (Eleven)" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter) Thread-Index: AQHPwHZaXEZy7wMV7kyCTuc5jlkEo5vhfVOAgAEQtoCAAjhlgIADwwaAgAW34IA= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 19:07:24 +0000 Message-ID: <3097E957-B24C-457E-88DC-C4A2E7D582AF@juniper.net> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF0ED7B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234402DF@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20140825150711.GB21774@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344228E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <32A2C3A6-097A-4039-9E09-D2559C2CCDEB@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;UriScan:; x-forefront-prvs: 0322B4EDE1 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(199003)(189002)(13464003)(164054003)(377454003)(24454002)(51704005)(83716003)(74662001)(85852003)(93916002)(83072002)(74502001)(87286001)(87936001)(85306004)(93886004)(33656002)(21056001)(104166001)(77156001)(50226001)(89996001)(2656002)(88136002)(20776003)(57306001)(77982001)(76482001)(46102001)(79102001)(19580405001)(4396001)(83322001)(92726001)(77096002)(99396002)(105586002)(86362001)(19580395003)(81542001)(99286002)(76176999)(106356001)(106116001)(95666004)(90102001)(50986999)(107046002)(101416001)(62966002)(31966008)(80022001)(81342001)(92566001)(36756003)(66066001)(82746002)(110136001)(64706001)(15975445006)(104396001); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:BN1PR05MB421; H:BN1PR05MB424.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/QBmPQSke33I_JbN4hUgPrauANE0 Cc: Toerless Eckert , Sheng Jiang , "anima@ietf.org" , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 19:07:36 -0000 Fuyu, Local resource management, example RF management. An amount of spectrum is = allocated to a group of cells and they allocate the spectrum among themselv= es based on the need. From macro level heat map, it looks as single device,= but among the peers, they could use some of it for p2p connections and som= e for access. Dean On Aug 29, 2014, at 11:47 PM, Fuyu (Eleven) wrote: > Hi Dean, >=20 >>>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via=20 >>>> cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow= monitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to ach= ieve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subs= equently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration o= f these actions is part of the execution. >>>=20 >>> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement seg= ment (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurement. = Then analytics and filtration from this information is needed to enable the= policy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the QoS. >> I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to do an= alysis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send analyze= d information to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that the probe= s would be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constraint enviro= nment and data analytics is computationally expensive. This information can= be used for other cases, not just for QoS. >=20 > What use cases ? Would you please take an example? >=20 > Cheers > Yu >=20 >>> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitoring u= se cases. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:deanb@juniper.net]=20 > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:21 AM > To: Fuyu (Eleven) > Cc: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Toerless Eckert; anima@ietf.org; Sh= eng Jiang > Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for char= ter) >=20 > Yu > On Aug 26, 2014, at 4:26 AM, Fuyu (Eleven) wrote= : >=20 >> Hi Dimitri and all, >>=20 >>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via=20 >>> cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow = monitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achi= eve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subse= quently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of= these actions is part of the execution. >>=20 >> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement segm= ent (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurement. T= hen analytics and filtration from this information is needed to enable the = policy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the QoS. > I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to do ana= lysis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send analyzed= information to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that the probes= would be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constraint environ= ment and data analytics is computationally expensive. This information can = be used for other cases, not just for QoS. >=20 >> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitoring us= e cases. >>=20 >> BR >> Yu >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 >> Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) >> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:11 AM >> To: Toerless Eckert >> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang >> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for=20 >> charter) >>=20 >> Toerless, >>=20 >> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cro= ss-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monitor= ing, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve wha= t can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subsequently= enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of these = actions is part of the execution. >>=20 >> I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. information out= of traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in addition to source of informatio= n provided/exchanged by current protocols (note: there are use cases that c= an limit their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA would have to= work on metrology and related infrastructure, one can rely on existing sou= rces, feeders, etc. >>=20 >> The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a "client" of = such information but can't be client of close-loop state derivation and con= sistent state to action mapping because this is what AN is all about). >>=20 >> Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which would need = clarification in the charter-- is that it misses (referring to my previous = email on the AN dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms of = realization it assumes as prerequisite the transformation and homogeneizati= on of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the gain in oper= ational/control logic while minimizing the infrastructure change (SDN looks= all the contrary to me). >>=20 >> Thanks, >> -d. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:07 PM >>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) >>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for >>> charter) >>>=20 >>> Dimitri, >>>=20 >>> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call=20 >>> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below): >>>=20 >>> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information from=20 >>> the network, and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sure=20 >>> what aspects are covered where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of >>> (IETF) gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wonder=20 >>> how we would best justify of taking on that work in Anima: >>>=20 >>> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/"SDN= " >>> solution, with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using=20 >>> methods like NETFLIX and others. And potentially having a hierarchy=20 >>> of such controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental stages=20 >>> of >>> pre- analytics. >>>=20 >>> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarchy=20 >>> of information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to=20 >>> autonomously orchestrate the active components in that model -=20 >>> hopefully as agents inside the network. But without some pre-existing=20 >>> model, i think we would have to do a lot more work in Anima than just=20 >>> those autonomic aspects - we might need to come up with the model=20 >>> first. A model that maybe better is defined first non-autonomic by a=20 >>> better group of experts in that subjet matter ? >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>> Toerless >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri >>> (Dimitri) >>> wrote: >>>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinion= : >>>>=20 >>>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes >>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing=20 >>> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics=20 >>> would help automating/adapting such task with current practices). >>>>=20 >>>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic=20 >>>> out >>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL,=20 >>> routing adjacencies or others. >>>>=20 >>>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure >>>>=20 >>>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological >>> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that=20 >>> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that=20 >>> an alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in=20 >>> propagation of routing information. >>>>=20 >>>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process=20 >>>> by >>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be=20 >>> measured and estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of o= utages. >>>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 From nobody Tue Sep 2 17:20:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38DF1A8911 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 17:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6G0A-x3Zh0Cw for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 17:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x234.google.com (mail-pd0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCC981A8912 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 17:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f180.google.com with SMTP id p10so9747637pdj.25 for ; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 17:19:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type; bh=r6NuV3qk3vCwAOB4QyhpfPql5BnPLF3o4fcXi7NYzCE=; b=zOOxxU1vhIgrsv+YGJxlhIxXQSXL+YyCCMDiB5srW3oi37BTooHg0NZ5reOEg1RtCv GWN5d2ZTfhdvOpSTuSI6Z2RuW6kih2OuGa99LI0leLvcA+yNSUCP9m9kHm0svMNU73o6 1TOgt+vM47bW4dNe2SJA5czqBVPKfU95To4yDCVB5a30aKJLayQk6etNGF65D8DlC+Qk I+QOelT34yEf71FYPmr1TiKzl2EtP20a0K7zO9k+Xb8Xq0bjDxCjk3gtReBa518rP7r/ zwtYT3rqevuqfkwLdidmkBUKvjsKU+VvuPWQwrP4xwczrI5plPpqe5DZHubaf0u1tCDX XrxA== X-Received: by 10.68.132.10 with SMTP id oq10mr23933391pbb.132.1409703599357; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 17:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.108] (sc-cs-567-laptop.cs.auckland.ac.nz. [130.216.38.108]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id vy10sm5189330pbc.5.2014.09.02.17.19.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Sep 2014 17:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 12:20:19 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010500090300070404000003" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/xAtcLweBSDNDZmy4ntowy4oTig4 Subject: [Anima] Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 00:20:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010500090300070404000003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...is attached and in the wiki. Many points have been revised. I also put a list of issues addressed by this version in the wiki. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter Regards Brian Carpenter --------------010500090300070404000003 Content-Type: text/plain; name="anima-wg-charter-draft-8.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="anima-wg-charter-draft-8.txt" QXV0b25vbWljIE5ldHdvcmtpbmcgSW50ZWdyYXRlZCBNb2RlbCBhbmQgQXBwcm9hY2ggKEFO SU1BKQ0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KDQpDdXJyZW50IFN0YXR1czogUHJvcG9zZWQgV0cNCg0KQXNzaWduZWQg QXJlYSBEaXJlY3RvcjoNCiAgQmVub2l0IENsYWlzZQ0KDQpNYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCiAgQWRk cmVzczogYW5pbWFAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgVG8gU3Vic2NyaWJlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYW5pbWENCiAgQXJjaGl2ZTogaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL2FuaW1hLw0KDQpDaGFydGVyOg0KDQpbYmFja2dyb3Vu ZF0gDQpBdXRvbm9taWMgTmV0d29ya2luZyBmb2N1c2VzIG9uIHNlbGYtbWFuYWdlbWVudCBv 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([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Sep 2014 00:31:48 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com [173.37.183.89]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s830VlRB020442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2014 00:31:47 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.204]) by xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com ([173.37.183.89]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 19:31:46 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "anima@ietf.org" , Sheng Jiang , "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Thread-Topic: ANIMA Conf Call Thread-Index: Ac/HDiAlGe3YeNX+QBaXA2/JQ2jf5QAAFEJQ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 00:31:46 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2D47E@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.154.212.30] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2D47Exmbrcdx14ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/7L2aD-IDo05Q2KDb0KbBIW5qqdw Subject: [Anima] ANIMA Conf Call X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 00:31:52 -0000 --_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2D47Exmbrcdx14ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is the next ANIMA conference call, at 1400 UTC. Michael ******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE ******* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- JOIN USING WebEx Go To: https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dme2706aefadd914c557da9e62150bc17= a Meeting Password ----- anima Meeting Number ----- 202 583 286 ---------------------------------------------------------------- ALERT - PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITHIN THE (408= ) OR (919) AREA CODES ---------------------------------------------------------------- Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below: - San Jose/Milpitas (408) area: 525-6800 - RTP (919) area: 392-3330 Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes is no= t enabled (non-Cisco phones). " If you dial the toll-free numbers within t= he 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up and dial the loc= al access number." Please use the call-back option whenever possible and ot= herwise dial local numbers only. The affected toll free numbers are: (866)= 432-9903 for the San Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP are= a. ------------------------------------------------------- To join the teleconference only ------------------------------------------------------- 1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html 2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Access = Code followed by the # sign. San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800 RTP: +1.919.392.3330 US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903 United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117 India: +91.80.4350.1111 Germany: +49.619.6773.9002 Japan: +81.3.5763.9394 China: +86.10.8515.5666 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio a= nd any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session= to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such= recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns = with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join th= e session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery= in the event of litigation. http://www.webex.com --_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2D47Exmbrcdx14ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is the next ANIMA conference call, at 1400 UTC.
 
Michael
******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TE= XT BELOW THIS LINE *******
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------= -
JOIN USING WebEx
 
Go To:
 
Meeting Password ----- anima
Meeting Number ----- 202 583 286
 
----------------------------------------------------------------
ALERT – PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITH= IN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:=
-  San Jose/Milpitas (408) area:  525-6800
-  RTP (919) area:  392-3330
 
Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes = is not enabled (non-Cisco phones).  “ If you dial the toll-free = numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up = and dial the local access number.” Please use the call-back option whenever possible and otherwise dial local numbers onl= y.  The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jos= e/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.
 
-------------------------------------------------------
To join the teleconference only
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Ac= cess Code followed by the # sign.
 
San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800  RTP: +1.919.392.3330
 
US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903  United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0= 117
 
India: +91.80.4350.1111  Germany: +49.619.6773.9002
 
Japan: +81.3.5763.9394  China: +86.10.8515.5666
 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows au= dio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the se= ssion to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to= such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior= to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that= any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation= .
 
 
 
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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dxaPuoR8NXLm for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 21:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x234.google.com (mail-la0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15FF71A8A06 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 21:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f52.google.com with SMTP id ty20so9009718lab.39 for ; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 21:47:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=s+FjY71gBMSSRyuDCEJKlo7E7fIMupmFApZ4f5B4e4I=; b=EStXEiblpDGjK4pwzTSUJI3lGuWjyM00iNIGKSkfO3DoCpY4wBK7W6y1nZagc9cjCA fbd4t8+hpAte2tgOQjABdfMBYG8GLUzF+KW5RmHf/M7uLn3FigyW8ckMeceaNHwu1s8X MItHCgcVWEQ9+VTEvrkDIqUCmusz9Cm1ZgAUQT8SVK+auUdmFIfBd8q5d55U4EeNg1Lb P59cnvMogTFjyUMvq6GkNmUBptLuzAl6deUcrwbQc+kv8EllCgDrGar1hy7ujG8F5fBl PDTlHsGh8WtQF7FMcHKbkSkY/R3QCoBX6Wtm6XLv9LTlm/Bzq5tIa+teZijGQPxXxDhm Kx6g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.130.73 with SMTP id oc9mr21260408lbb.31.1409719640357; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 21:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Sender: jeferson.nobre@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.60.39 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Sep 2014 21:47:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3097E957-B24C-457E-88DC-C4A2E7D582AF@juniper.net> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF0ED7B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234402DF@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20140825150711.GB21774@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344228E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <32A2C3A6-097A-4039-9E09-D2559C2CCDEB@juniper.net> <3097E957-B24C-457E-88DC-C4A2E7D582AF@juniper.net> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 01:47:20 -0300 X-Google-Sender-Auth: hrXoU-6ru_QomAF-gCVmpzkgC4E Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A9ferson_Campos_Nobre?= To: Dean Bogdanovic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/6xiqmaR9sswxtouUjUn-hRGi1mU Cc: Toerless Eckert , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" , "anima@ietf.org" , "Fuyu \(Eleven\)" , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for charter) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 04:47:24 -0000 Hi Dean. I presented a draft at UCAN BoF (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-sla-violation-detect= ion-00) which considers a local resource management problem in the context of active measurement sessions. It seems close to your RF management example. I presented at NMRG (IETF 88) a P2P solution (http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/slides/slides-88-nmrg-1.pdf) and I am working on a draft to describe this solution. I hope to have it ready for IETF 91. Anyway, I think monitoring use cases will be out of scope considering the last ANIMA charter version. J=C3=A9ferson On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 4:07 PM, Dean Bogdanovic wrote: > Fuyu, > > Local resource management, example RF management. An amount of spectrum i= s allocated to a group of cells and they allocate the spectrum among themse= lves based on the need. From macro level heat map, it looks as single devic= e, but among the peers, they could use some of it for p2p connections and s= ome for access. > > Dean > > On Aug 29, 2014, at 11:47 PM, Fuyu (Eleven) wrot= e: > >> Hi Dean, >> >>>>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via >>>>> cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flo= w monitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to ac= hieve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information that sub= sequently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration = of these actions is part of the execution. >>>> >>>> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement se= gment (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurement.= Then analytics and filtration from this information is needed to enable th= e policy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the QoS. >>> I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to do a= nalysis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send analyz= ed information to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that the prob= es would be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constraint envir= onment and data analytics is computationally expensive. This information ca= n be used for other cases, not just for QoS. >> >> What use cases ? Would you please take an example? >> >> Cheers >> Yu >> >>>> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitoring = use cases. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:deanb@juniper.net] >> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:21 AM >> To: Fuyu (Eleven) >> Cc: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Toerless Eckert; anima@ietf.org; S= heng Jiang >> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for cha= rter) >> >> Yu >> On Aug 26, 2014, at 4:26 AM, Fuyu (Eleven) wrot= e: >> >>> Hi Dimitri and all, >>> >>>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via >>>> cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow= monitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to ach= ieve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subs= equently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration o= f these actions is part of the execution. >>> >>> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement seg= ment (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurement. = Then analytics and filtration from this information is needed to enable the= policy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the QoS. >> I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to do an= alysis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send analyze= d information to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that the probe= s would be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constraint enviro= nment and data analytics is computationally expensive. This information can= be used for other cases, not just for QoS. >> >>> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitoring u= se cases. >>> >>> BR >>> Yu >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>> Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:11 AM >>> To: Toerless Eckert >>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang >>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for >>> charter) >>> >>> Toerless, >>> >>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via cr= oss-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow monito= ring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to achieve wh= at can't be derived out of individual protocol information that subsequentl= y enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestration of these= actions is part of the execution. >>> >>> I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. information ou= t of traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in addition to source of informati= on provided/exchanged by current protocols (note: there are use cases that = can limit their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA would have t= o work on metrology and related infrastructure, one can rely on existing so= urces, feeders, etc. >>> >>> The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a "client" of= such information but can't be client of close-loop state derivation and co= nsistent state to action mapping because this is what AN is all about). >>> >>> Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which would need= clarification in the charter-- is that it misses (referring to my previous= email on the AN dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in terms of= realization it assumes as prerequisite the transformation and homogeneizat= ion of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the gain in ope= rational/control logic while minimizing the infrastructure change (SDN look= s all the contrary to me). >>> >>> Thanks, >>> -d. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:07 PM >>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) >>>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for >>>> charter) >>>> >>>> Dimitri, >>>> >>>> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call >>>> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below): >>>> >>>> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information from >>>> the network, and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sure >>>> what aspects are covered where in the IETF, and there may be a lot of >>>> (IETF) gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wonder >>>> how we would best justify of taking on that work in Anima: >>>> >>>> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/"SD= N" >>>> solution, with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using >>>> methods like NETFLIX and others. And potentially having a hierarchy >>>> of such controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental stages >>>> of >>>> pre- analytics. >>>> >>>> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarchy >>>> of information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to >>>> autonomously orchestrate the active components in that model - >>>> hopefully as agents inside the network. But without some pre-existing >>>> model, i think we would have to do a lot more work in Anima than just >>>> those autonomic aspects - we might need to come up with the model >>>> first. A model that maybe better is defined first non-autonomic by a >>>> better group of experts in that subjet matter ? >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Toerless >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri >>>> (Dimitri) >>>> wrote: >>>>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opinio= n: >>>>> >>>>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes >>>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing >>>> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics >>>> would help automating/adapting such task with current practices). >>>>> >>>>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic >>>>> out >>>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, >>>> routing adjacencies or others. >>>>> >>>>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure >>>>> >>>>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological >>>> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent that >>>> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or that >>>> an alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in >>>> propagation of routing information. >>>>> >>>>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple process >>>>> by >>>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be >>>> measured and estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out of = outages. >>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Wed Sep 3 13:14:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3E31A6F61 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 13:14:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMh2jpV-4qGB for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 13:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 738341A6F7F for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id lj1so18205163pab.14 for ; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ca0ECvLb5DXU2Oo+TqpnKA51duUPJVLqrPAZHPgiCwU=; b=Ct6ZA07KP9VbValnUAcvSAMLUVfQbnZDLZxvm5uZerG0rw3emN5gsbDEOqE0xXjFb1 snbyGhUSYFi+54ydDWBvDmkW20bhEV0NpfxyE6SE6uyyJvMukmlUXRFnOd48JAV/AbQq gYoZno+pq+sxSyxBUYbC4ilv2Jf2wOqn2yhtaSYOY0AzXiSCr4ixC95fNGBPHDI2EeHZ Lnywcro73zrPJhbIgb6TVyYR9YbEhUUhJAP7Vl8EcE+DtkH/MuDtCI1s1FERMHgI41W4 oEwXysm9BEVl+kE1NZqfVTQfHjfMC4xwa25nbv2z9aZ+InTfQnCJIvpH2qQ5qi5BeJ6G Zhuw== X-Received: by 10.66.251.132 with SMTP id zk4mr62096558pac.47.1409775266125; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (71.193.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.193.71]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fk10sm19957352pab.29.2014.09.03.13.14.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Sep 2014 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <540776B7.6000709@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 08:14:47 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpZmVyc29uIENhbXBvcyBOb2JyZQ==?= References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF0ED7B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234402DF@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <20140825150711.GB21774@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344228E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <32A2C3A6-097A-4039-9E09-D2559C2CCDEB@juniper.net> <3097E957-B24C-457E-88DC-C4A2E7D582AF@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/B9FT9dnHfqguEfv7LrZkZPi6zCI Cc: Toerless Eckert , Dean Bogdanovic , "Fuyu \(Eleven\)" , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" , "anima@ietf.org" , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 20:14:37 -0000 On 03/09/2014 16:47, J=C3=A9ferson Campos Nobre wrote: > Hi Dean. > I presented a draft at UCAN BoF > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-sla-violation-de= tection-00) > which considers a local resource management problem in the context of > active measurement sessions. It seems close to your RF management > example. > I presented at NMRG (IETF 88) a P2P solution > (http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/slides/slides-88-nmrg-1.pdf) and I > am working on a draft to describe this solution. I hope to have it > ready for IETF 91. > Anyway, I think monitoring use cases will be out of scope considering > the last ANIMA charter version. They might be out of scope for the initial milestones, but that doesn't mean they should not be discussed (in the NMRG if not in the proposed WG). In the long run this will be important. Brian >=20 > J=C3=A9ferson >=20 > On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 4:07 PM, Dean Bogdanovic wro= te: >> Fuyu, >> >> Local resource management, example RF management. An amount of spectru= m is allocated to a group of cells and they allocate the spectrum among t= hemselves based on the need. From macro level heat map, it looks as singl= e device, but among the peers, they could use some of it for p2p connecti= ons and some for access. >> >> Dean >> >> On Aug 29, 2014, at 11:47 PM, Fuyu (Eleven) w= rote: >> >>> Hi Dean, >>> >>>>>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states v= ia >>>>>> cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/= flow monitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step = to achieve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information t= hat subsequently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orche= stration of these actions is part of the execution. >>>>> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement= segment (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measure= ment. Then analytics and filtration from this information is needed to en= able the policy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the Q= oS. >>>> I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to d= o analysis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send a= nalyzed information to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that t= he probes would be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constra= int environment and data analytics is computationally expensive. This inf= ormation can be used for other cases, not just for QoS. >>> What use cases ? Would you please take an example? >>> >>> Cheers >>> Yu >>> >>>>> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitori= ng use cases. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:deanb@juniper.net] >>> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:21 AM >>> To: Fuyu (Eleven) >>> Cc: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Toerless Eckert; anima@ietf.org= ; Sheng Jiang >>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for = charter) >>> >>> Yu >>> On Aug 26, 2014, at 4:26 AM, Fuyu (Eleven) w= rote: >>> >>>> Hi Dimitri and all, >>>> >>>>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states vi= a >>>>> cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/f= low monitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step t= o achieve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information th= at subsequently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orches= tration of these actions is part of the execution. >>>> Totally agree. I think the AN chain include performance measurement = segment (e.g. probe )and information collection segment from the measurem= ent. Then analytics and filtration from this information is needed to ena= ble the policy adjustment for network configuration adjustment for the Qo= S. >>> I agree with Dimitri and you on this. Actually, I would suggest to do= analysis of the information locally by the agent and agent would send an= alyzed information to other peering AN agents. Would also suggest that th= e probes would be very narrow, as the AN agent on the node is in constrai= nt environment and data analytics is computationally expensive. This info= rmation can be used for other cases, not just for QoS. >>> >>>> The orchestration of these processing is important for the monitorin= g use cases. >>>> >>>> BR >>>> Yu >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:11 AM >>>> To: Toerless Eckert >>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang >>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases for= >>>> charter) >>>> >>>> Toerless, >>>> >>>> The AN chain includes analytics enabling to derive actual states via= cross-information processing from multiple sources (e.g., traffic/flow m= onitoring, protocol information bases, etc.) This is critical step to ach= ieve what can't be derived out of individual protocol information that su= bsequently enables mapping/translating states to actions. The orchestrati= on of these actions is part of the execution. >>>> >>>> I should clarify though considering cases involving e.g. information= out of traffic/flow monitoring/measurement in addition to source of info= rmation provided/exchanged by current protocols (note: there are use case= s that can limit their processing to the latter), does not mean ANIMA wou= ld have to work on metrology and related infrastructure, one can rely on = existing sources, feeders, etc. >>>> >>>> The point is the latter shouldn't scope the former (AN is a "client"= of such information but can't be client of close-loop state derivation a= nd consistent state to action mapping because this is what AN is all abou= t). >>>> >>>> Now compared to SDN and other declinations --something which would n= eed clarification in the charter-- is that it misses (referring to my pre= vious email on the AN dimensions): "autonomy" and "distribution" and in t= erms of realization it assumes as prerequisite the transformation and hom= ogeneization of the underlying infrastructure. AN aims at maximizing the = gain in operational/control logic while minimizing the infrastructure cha= nge (SDN looks all the contrary to me). >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> -d. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:07 PM >>>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) >>>>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Monitoring use cases (was: Select Use cases fo= r >>>>> charter) >>>>> >>>>> Dimitri, >>>>> >>>>> Wrt to your thoughts about including what i would call >>>>> monitoring/reporting use cases (as you wrote below): >>>>> >>>>> AFAIK there is a lot of work in pulling performance information fro= m >>>>> the network, and doing aggrgation and analytics on it. I am not sur= e >>>>> what aspects are covered where in the IETF, and there may be a lot = of >>>>> (IETF) gaps in operationalizing comprehensive solutions. But i wond= er >>>>> how we would best justify of taking on that work in Anima: >>>>> >>>>> It seems a lot of this analytics could be well built as an overlay/= "SDN" >>>>> solution, with controller(s) pulling in the information, eg: using >>>>> methods like NETFLIX and others. And potentially having a hierarchy= >>>>> of such controllers/agents do do aggregation, and incremental stage= s >>>>> of >>>>> pre- analytics. >>>>> >>>>> To me, the autonomic aspects would not be the model of that hierarc= hy >>>>> of information gasthering, analytics/agregation, but rather how to >>>>> autonomously orchestrate the active components in that model - >>>>> hopefully as agents inside the network. But without some pre-existi= ng >>>>> model, i think we would have to do a lot more work in Anima than ju= st >>>>> those autonomic aspects - we might need to come up with the model >>>>> first. A model that maybe better is defined first non-autonomic by = a >>>>> better group of experts in that subjet matter ? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Toerless >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 08:19:06AM +0000, Papadimitriou, Dimitri >>>>> (Dimitri) >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> o) Practically speaking, the use case set should include in my opi= nion: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes >>>>> configuration (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing= >>>>> decision (and it would be interesting to confront how autonomics >>>>> would help automating/adapting such task with current practices). >>>>>> - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnost= ic >>>>>> out >>>>> of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, >>>>> routing adjacencies or others. >>>>>> - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure >>>>>> >>>>>> - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological >>>>> information analysis, the output of such process should prevent tha= t >>>>> protecting routing path fail together with their primary path or th= at >>>>> an alternate path fails right after its selection due to delay in >>>>> propagation of routing information. >>>>>> - Instead of bringing big words like SLA, consider a simple proces= s >>>>>> by >>>>> which the bandwidth x delay of running path segments could be >>>>> measured and estimated in order to anticipate possible effects out = of outages. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Anima mailing list >>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Anima mailing list >>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Wed Sep 3 16:33:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CDE1A0ADD for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 16:33:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.568 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.568 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nsfeTNMU63CW for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 16:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CA8B1A06B8 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 16:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 2385C3CF3166B; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:33:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s83NXCIE002826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2014 01:33:12 +0200 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.52]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 01:33:12 +0200 From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Charter draft 8... Thread-Index: AQHPxwzZ2SNn8d0lOkyNrFIVzJCaupvv/Qkg Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:33:11 +0000 Message-ID: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323449668@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/fNgOhk03l0c2dnYX7AnmUvY5fLE Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... 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CDC171A8788 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 17:54:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.568 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.568 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PGbP4q4x7Y2X for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 17:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9382A1A8785 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 17:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 6DF2A194C78A6; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 00:54:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s840sdMY015343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2014 02:54:39 +0200 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.52]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 02:54:39 +0200 From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Charter draft 8... Thread-Index: AQHPxwzZ2SNn8d0lOkyNrFIVzJCaupvv/Qkg Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 00:54:38 +0000 Message-ID: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344980D@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/v0sGreNbFcM_pdxbPmVBWegiozk Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 00:54:44 -0000 TXkgY29tbWVudHMgb24gdGhpcyBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiB0aGUgY2hhcnRlciBhcmUgdGhlIGZv bGxvd2luZzoNCg0KMS4gIkEgY29tcGxldGUgc29sdXRpb24gZm9yIGF1dG9ub21pYyBuZXR3b3Jr aW5nIHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgdmVyeSBhbWJpdGlvdXMgZ29hbC4gVGhlIHNjb3BlIG9mDQp0aGlzIHdv cmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAncyBlZmZvcnQgZm9yIHRoZSBpbml0aWFsIHN0YWdlIGlzIG11Y2ggbW9yZSBt b2Rlc3QiDQoNCmJ1dCB0aGVuIG1pbGVzdG9uZXMgaW5jbHVkZSBzcGVjaWZpYyBpdGVtcyBmb3Ig ZGVsaXZlcnkgb2YgYSAiY29tcGxldGUgc29sdXRpb24iIA0KDQpKYW4gMjAxNiAtIFdHTEMgZm9y IGF1dG9ub21pYyBjb250cm9sIHBsYW5lIGRyYWZ0DQpKYW4gMjAxNiAtIFdHTEMgZm9yIG92ZXJ2 aWV3IGRyYWZ0DQogICAgICAgICAgIC0gTWFyIElFVEYgLSANCkFwciAyMDE2IC0gc3VibWl0IGF1 dG9ub21pYyBjb250cm9sIHBsYW5lIGRyYWZ0IHRvIElFU0cgKHN0YW5kYXJkcyB0cmFjaykNCg0K 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xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.204]) by xhc-aln-x15.cisco.com ([173.36.12.89]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 20:09:25 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Charter draft 8... Thread-Index: AQHPxwzWarlbmLfW2UudA2/dKWiLMpvwZJGA///BoFA= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 01:09:24 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2EB31@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323449668@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323449668@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.154.164.56] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/O_3gtfMofmb30t2ibwGJ2heKXwM Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 01:09:44 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Papadimitriou, > Dimitri (Dimitri) > Sent: 03 September 2014 16:33 > To: Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >=20 > My comments on this new version of the charter are the following: >=20 > 1. "A complete solution for autonomic networking would be a very > ambitious goal. The scope of this working group's effort for the initial = stage > is much more modest" >=20 > but then milestones include specific items for delivery of a "complete > solution" >=20 > Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft Jan 2016 - WGLC for > overview draft > - Mar IETF - > Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards track) >=20 > -> this BoF group should either stay modest or ambitious but can't both a= t > the same time. I do not understand. The milestones do not talk about "complete solution" a= t all? What are you referring to and how do you suggest we change it?=20 =20 > 2. Concerning use cases; some uses cases are qualified a priori as "justi= fied" > (where is the proof ?), operationally required (where is the support ?) a= nd > mature (have they ever been discussed on this list ?) others are position= ed > as complex, out of scope, for further study, "boiling the ocean" ... for = the > NMRG may be (if they are kind enough). >=20 > -> This BoF group has to set a clearer process (criteria, metrics, etc.) = if it > wants to pre-select use cases and include them in the charter. This is a very open and broad statement. Can you please be specific? I don'= t think we should start by defining what "justified" (term is actually not = used in the charter), "required" and "mature" means.=20 I suggest you specifically tell us which specific things are not * (reuse t= erm above).=20 > 3. In the meantime, this arbitrary pre-selection misses feedback from BoF > session and discussion on this list: is pre-selection the right approach = ? > assuming a pre-selection would be performed would the resulting use cases > be sufficiently representative ? some use cases may help in progressing > understanding of AN but those may not necessarily correspond to the ones > with high priority from an operational perspective ? >=20 > -> For all these reasons, it has been suggested to avoid pre-selection an= d > prefer the approach where it is up to participant (the "community") to ra= ise > the case they would like to see considered in the design process and not = the > charter (which is intended to steer contributions and not a priori classi= fy > them as low priority (see below)). Why is this alternative not considered= ? > what are the objective arguments to favor pre-selection instead of an op= en > process ? This discussion *is* the open process, Dimitri. :-) Please raise the use= cases you would like to see considered, and if the community agrees, we'll= put them on. What we can NOT have is to keep circling around this question= forever. The goal is to have this discussion now, agree on one, and THEN, = when the charter is agreed on, we stick to it.=20 > 4. "Some important topics are intentionally not included in the initial g= oals > as they are considered separate matters that should be considered later, > although they are in the scope for discussion with lower priority:" >=20 > Yet another ambiguity: how a topic can be classified at the same time as > "important" but considered with "low priority"; this also opens the quest= ion > who sets the priorities ? and more fundamentally have we documented > with tangible arguments where the operational priorities are ? Again, please refrain from general procedural questions, and state which to= pic we should include. We're open to any argument. And it is all of us here= who set the priority.=20 =20 > 5. "It is recognized that autonomic functions will co-exist with traditio= nal > methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus will be on > self-configuration." >=20 > Who has recognized this fact (as phrased it looks as ground truth) ?=20 We are saying that there won't be for the first phase a COMPLETE autonomic = device with this effort, but we go function by function. I consider this ve= ry reasonable actually. Why do you disagree with this statement? Are you su= ggesting we should aim for fully self-managing devices?=20 Again, once the charter is agreed by all the goal is that we all agree on w= hat's written here. It does NOT mean that the people contributing to the ch= arter so far are imposing this.=20 > is it a > transient or a permanent situation ? does it imply that the initial focus > should be on configuration ? looks again contradictory also from that > perspective, one could read following this statement it would be much > more appropriate to look at functionality remaining partially covered mor= e > than those covered (configuration). This is not the intention, and I suggest we re-phrase to "It is recognized = that autonomic functions will FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE co-exist with trad= itional methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus will= be on self-configuration." Would this address your concern? If not, can you suggest text please?=20 Michael > I would appreciate the answer going well beyond the arguments "we are > not aiming at mathematically correct statements" (as I'd like just to see > coherent, consistent and verifiable statements), "this is how we used to = do > it" (actually it isn't since IETF has always been driven by cross-fertili= zation > and not single viewpoints), "this how AD's have asked us to shape the > charter" (despite the fact that ADs don't set the technical agenda, don't > select use cases or their number, etc.) >=20 > -d. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E > > Carpenter > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 2:20 AM > > To: anima@ietf.org > > Subject: [Anima] Charter draft 8... > > > > ...is attached and in the wiki. Many points have been revised. > > I also put a list of issues addressed by this version in the wiki. > > > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter > > > > Regards > > Brian Carpenter > > > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Thu Sep 4 00:04:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E201A0B7D for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 00:04:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UYVIy2yMyNoQ for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 00:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93B6B1A1F16 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 00:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMD00827; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 07:04:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.41) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:03:59 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.78]) by nkgeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:03:51 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Agenda for Webex meeting #4 Thread-Index: Ac/IDl8iaTUY1yfhSDKDQraw/cYKvg== Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 07:03:51 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF156C9@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.145] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_003_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF156C9nkgeml512mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/1Xw51NH5Xxoe4huq0UeIpaRJJyg Subject: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #4 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 07:04:07 -0000 --_003_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF156C9nkgeml512mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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[99.231.118.107]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ig9sm983616igb.13.2014.09.04.06.56.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Sep 2014 06:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54086F90.90800@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 09:56:32 -0400 From: Rene Struik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" References: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323449668@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2EB31@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2EB31@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/4QWKxu_dwzgSzTYav_bpyr2IaNs Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:56:40 -0000 Dear all: Some brief feedback on the draft charter (08): a) Remove reference to drafts [3-5] as documents to be adopted from the charter. I have tried and find technical discussions about these documents on the mailing list, but failed. It is unclear what problems the designs in [3-5] solve, security goals are missing, and design seems to be adhoc. b) Remove unclarity as to whether the charter aims at autonomic behavior or coming up with a default protocol. The charter seems to originate from desire to simplify network management, but from reading documentation it seems to mostly deal with (yet another?) set of protocols, without making it clear how this helps in fostering autonomic/automatic behavior. The main culprit here seems to be that there is no architectural blueprint. I am afraid having yet more point solutions to unclear problems does not bring simplified, yet flexible and secure network management, esp. for internet of things devices, closer. I read the following drafts: [1] draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03 [2] draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-00 (sorry, did not read 01 yet) [3] draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02 [4] draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 [5] draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00 On 9/3/2014 9:09 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Papadimitriou, >> Dimitri (Dimitri) >> Sent: 03 September 2014 16:33 >> To: Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >> >> My comments on this new version of the charter are the following: >> >> 1. "A complete solution for autonomic networking would be a very >> ambitious goal. The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage >> is much more modest" >> >> but then milestones include specific items for delivery of a "complete >> solution" >> >> Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft Jan 2016 - WGLC for >> overview draft >> - Mar IETF - >> Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards track) >> >> -> this BoF group should either stay modest or ambitious but can't both at >> the same time. > I do not understand. The milestones do not talk about "complete solution" at all? What are you referring to and how do you suggest we change it? > >> 2. Concerning use cases; some uses cases are qualified a priori as "justified" >> (where is the proof ?), operationally required (where is the support ?) and >> mature (have they ever been discussed on this list ?) others are positioned >> as complex, out of scope, for further study, "boiling the ocean" ... for the >> NMRG may be (if they are kind enough). >> >> -> This BoF group has to set a clearer process (criteria, metrics, etc.) if it >> wants to pre-select use cases and include them in the charter. > This is a very open and broad statement. Can you please be specific? I don't think we should start by defining what "justified" (term is actually not used in the charter), "required" and "mature" means. > > I suggest you specifically tell us which specific things are not * (reuse term above). > >> 3. In the meantime, this arbitrary pre-selection misses feedback from BoF >> session and discussion on this list: is pre-selection the right approach ? >> assuming a pre-selection would be performed would the resulting use cases >> be sufficiently representative ? some use cases may help in progressing >> understanding of AN but those may not necessarily correspond to the ones >> with high priority from an operational perspective ? >> >> -> For all these reasons, it has been suggested to avoid pre-selection and >> prefer the approach where it is up to participant (the "community") to raise >> the case they would like to see considered in the design process and not the >> charter (which is intended to steer contributions and not a priori classify >> them as low priority (see below)). Why is this alternative not considered ? >> what are the objective arguments to favor pre-selection instead of an open >> process ? > This discussion *is* the open process, Dimitri. :-) Please raise the use cases you would like to see considered, and if the community agrees, we'll put them on. What we can NOT have is to keep circling around this question forever. The goal is to have this discussion now, agree on one, and THEN, when the charter is agreed on, we stick to it. > >> 4. "Some important topics are intentionally not included in the initial goals >> as they are considered separate matters that should be considered later, >> although they are in the scope for discussion with lower priority:" >> >> Yet another ambiguity: how a topic can be classified at the same time as >> "important" but considered with "low priority"; this also opens the question >> who sets the priorities ? and more fundamentally have we documented >> with tangible arguments where the operational priorities are ? > Again, please refrain from general procedural questions, and state which topic we should include. We're open to any argument. And it is all of us here who set the priority. > >> 5. "It is recognized that autonomic functions will co-exist with traditional >> methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus will be on >> self-configuration." >> >> Who has recognized this fact (as phrased it looks as ground truth) ? > We are saying that there won't be for the first phase a COMPLETE autonomic device with this effort, but we go function by function. I consider this very reasonable actually. Why do you disagree with this statement? Are you suggesting we should aim for fully self-managing devices? > > Again, once the charter is agreed by all the goal is that we all agree on what's written here. It does NOT mean that the people contributing to the charter so far are imposing this. > >> is it a >> transient or a permanent situation ? does it imply that the initial focus >> should be on configuration ? looks again contradictory also from that >> perspective, one could read following this statement it would be much >> more appropriate to look at functionality remaining partially covered more >> than those covered (configuration). > This is not the intention, and I suggest we re-phrase to "It is recognized that autonomic functions will FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE co-exist with traditional methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus will be on self-configuration." > > Would this address your concern? If not, can you suggest text please? > > Michael > >> I would appreciate the answer going well beyond the arguments "we are >> not aiming at mathematically correct statements" (as I'd like just to see >> coherent, consistent and verifiable statements), "this is how we used to do >> it" (actually it isn't since IETF has always been driven by cross-fertilization >> and not single viewpoints), "this how AD's have asked us to shape the >> charter" (despite the fact that ADs don't set the technical agenda, don't >> select use cases or their number, etc.) >> >> -d. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E >>> Carpenter >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 2:20 AM >>> To: anima@ietf.org >>> Subject: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>> >>> ...is attached and in the wiki. Many points have been revised. >>> I also put a list of issues addressed by this version in the wiki. >>> >>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter >>> >>> Regards >>> Brian Carpenter >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 From nobody Thu Sep 4 08:32:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C7E1A6F96 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ecbEhnW_LJr for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B6841A8969 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3903; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1409844753; x=1411054353; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=o0jgGshdJYM5osHRWrTmxsf+XbCoxR1KIJ8O076A4hA=; b=gMSwV/ZVFvWu8QNRNThzQSjXzuZgK1IdTNz8zoGGIJ1UJ7zg6ldFlEGl gI5m8qXQdQUGsnLOaOPOpX6goWl06CuSNlWwGwOasS0HqcgZZ9LWWCZZo G+LHmA1QnNBM9qUzBqY/ctQ1iuiImUG6xNjGvH+43Ag5AeYZGEOiLmjXZ 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkcFANOECFStJA2F/2dsb2JhbAA/GoMNU1cEyCqHSgGBBRZ3hAUBBDpRASoUQiYBBBsTiCcNNpc8pRcBEwSPHINngR0FkT6EMJwgg2FsAQSBQ4EHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,466,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="352597096" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Sep 2014 15:32:32 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com [173.36.12.80]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s84FWVqR012021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:32:31 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.204]) by xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com ([173.36.12.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 10:32:31 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Notes from the ANIMA call today Thread-Index: Ac/IVVBll8/OeUbkQL6yVa4egc+45g== Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:32:30 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2F133@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.154.200.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/67tu35RVNls0e6MQbDk_49OPgfw Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA call today X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 15:32:36 -0000 Here is the recording:=20 https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D2d44676cde11469b9639c8797= 71a8e3f And below are the notes, thanks Toerless for taking them!=20 Michael --- Participants Michael Behringer Bing Liu Dan Romascanu Dean Dimitri P. Guy Meador Laurent Ciavaglia Rene Struik Sheng Jiang Yu Fu Call #4. Target to stabilize the draft charter #8 published from last weeks= meeting. August 26/29 updated NMRG drafts: Definition and gap analysis. Asked for last call on both drafts in NMRG. Rene Struik: Need to be more clear what charter goal is: Autonomic Networking vs. stripping down #competing protocols. Rene Struik: seems it is premature to go for adoption of the three document= s in the charter. It is unclear what philosophy is behind the protocols. Shen: These protocols are just meant to be starting points. WG is to start = working on these problm areas. First adoption calls will be November. Still time make documents more mature. Rene Struik: But charter says "adoption of drafts". Fear these will be poin= t solutions to unclear problems. Michael: Goal is to come up with common infrastructure for the problems in = scope. Does not mean we have to build new protocols, can also take existing= ones. Rene Struik: Wrt to negotiation protocol. I think about IoT applications, a= nd the current proposal seems badly applicable. Maybe discussing the philos= ophy of the protocols should be one of the first goal of the charter. Laurent: Why do we need to list these documents in the charter ? Michael: leaving them out would make the charter even less clear. Rene: Usually do not see references to drafts in other charter. Should ther= e not simply be just topics that should be discussed in the charter instead= ? Dan Romascanu: Agreed with Laurent.=20 Sheng Jiang: Agreed. Laurent: Common infrastructure question. Where/how do we see the role of au= tonomic in it. SHould the protocols control atonomic functions, or be auton= omic themselves. Question 2: Internet deployment or design principles to im= prove future protocols with autonomic philosophy applied to other groups pr= otocols. Michael: Please propose text on the anima working group to improve charter = text. Wrt to NMRG drat comments Discussion about mentioning of area director responsiblity in charter. Michael: AD responsible to approve future charter changes. Negotiate with A= D to work in a controlled way through the number of use cases to solve. REn= e: maybe this is a note that should be removed after finalization. Discussio about how many use cases beyond those solved by the infrastructur= e we should ave. Conclusion was one. Dimitri: Why do we need to build protocols to solve use-cases. Value is not based on added value of synchronizing agents better than today= . Other bodies who have tried to tackle this problem have also tried to bui= ld an infrastructure first and then focus on use cases. PCE was a very good example. The overall use-case is the proof point tht he= lpe shape the 4 year work for those protocols. Michael: current tentative use-case is IPv6 prefix management. Dimitri: fears this is not generic enough ?! Need to wy to show flexiblity = of agent model. Laurent: Can we show in one single use case example how to reuse the common= infraastructure ? What we should focus on in the demonstation use case, th= at we can check over multiple use-cases, we can solve each of them with the= common component. How to write the charter: Laurent: leave more headroom to the WG to decide = what it will deliver. Dimitiri: Success in functionality in use-cases. Sucess in design based on = reuseability. Both can/should be in charter. But protocols are third step. Sheng: The negotiation protocol wold be an aspect of reuseable design. From nobody Thu Sep 4 13:22:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5E61A015F for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:22:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-psHUEa55fL for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA9BC1A00F0 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id fb1so20742369pad.13 for ; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=iLRKVxiipLHBTccBs1TznQQiqRU2zw2xJRBK9dJPFdc=; b=EEGN7GhY/VjNW9fe/t1oJnZoingN57pAwp6dtq7sqkXDLNaNtNC2nWxi+eTWtCxxi+ Ub1W1h20P4yewS+PVmRNmzNw8DJIH7fCzTtSPli5Z229h+LIcfzSSRJWSiiJ7+TjM9fA i/RwPQd8o8CKzfu5F2i2c+OEj8OB58qnBt6GEZG06pUemmfRdJ88BAThoOmY9nWGdHH2 5SUCd38ke9Vx7Rtzx+b24qI76Jq2nhlL+c/SFFtbx0HKt7slJl0nPcKXNZ27NMjvF2u/ bGW7Cn58dChx/ajO8A8hkPWMXsjbLydX8luJl2x/AxfTxISysFX+J8uAm+pr9ca+h65c YwDQ== X-Received: by 10.70.119.97 with SMTP id kt1mr10424015pdb.54.1409862136863; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (189.199.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.199.189]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fz10sm16680pdb.50.2014.09.04.13.22.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5408CA0F.3030602@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2014 08:22:39 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rene Struik References: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323449668@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2EB31@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <54086F90.90800@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54086F90.90800@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/GeEwC2Jm-t9aSaylubGM10NInwk Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 20:22:20 -0000 Rene, On 05/09/2014 01:56, Rene Struik wrote: > Dear all: > > Some brief feedback on the draft charter (08): > > a) Remove reference to drafts [3-5] as documents to be adopted from the > charter. They are not proposed as documents to be adopted. They are proposed as starting points, which is quite a different statement. I'm also now aware of at least one other starting point for [3], which might be added. It's very common to have such starting points for WG discussion. > I have tried and find technical discussions about these documents on the > mailing list, but failed. It is unclear what problems the designs in > [3-5] solve, I disagree. [4] and [5] include their own problem statements (which is why they were considered as uses cases in the BOF). [3] has a separate problem statement draft, draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps. > security goals are missing, They all consider security requirements, so I think that is unfair, and since they are only starting points, not even proposed for WG adoption, they are not called on to be complete. I think everyone is clear that an insecure autonomic control plane would be disastrous, but we can't develop the threat model in the abstract. > and design seems to be adhoc. That seems to me to be the case for every initial design. But again, why does this really matter for starting points? > > b) Remove unclarity as to whether the charter aims at autonomic behavior > or coming up with a default protocol. I don't see any ambiguity. It aims at common infrastructure as the basis for autonomic functions, co-existing with traditional management tools. > The charter seems to originate from desire to simplify network > management, but from reading documentation it seems to mostly deal with > (yet another?) set of protocols, without making it clear how this helps > in fostering autonomic/automatic behavior. Now here your logic defeats me. How can we foster autonomic behaviour, in a multivendor world, without agreeing on standard protocols to achieve such behaviour? It's true, I think, that those of us working on this have not found any existing protocol that seems to have the right characteristics, because there is a profound difference between top-down management and autonomic self-management. I'm not too happy about this but there it is. > The main culprit here seems to be that there is no architectural > blueprint. I am afraid having yet more point solutions to unclear > problems does not bring simplified, yet flexible and secure network > management, esp. for internet of things devices, closer. I disagree with this assessment. In general, as I've mentiond before, I have seen the IETF failing quite often when it aims at architectural blueprints, and succeeding quite often (but certainly not always) when it aims at simple generic tools. I believe that this is the aiming point here too (not the same thing as point solutions). I thing the IoT angle needs more discussion, however. What are the components in an IoT scenario that would act as AN service agents? As Michael said elsewhere, we are now looking for specific text change proposals to the draft charter. Regards Brian > I read the following drafts: > [1] draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03 > [2] draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-00 (sorry, did not read 01 yet) > [3] draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02 > [4] draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 > [5] draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00 > > On 9/3/2014 9:09 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Papadimitriou, >>> Dimitri (Dimitri) >>> Sent: 03 September 2014 16:33 >>> To: Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>> >>> My comments on this new version of the charter are the following: >>> >>> 1. "A complete solution for autonomic networking would be a very >>> ambitious goal. The scope of this working group's effort for the >>> initial stage >>> is much more modest" >>> >>> but then milestones include specific items for delivery of a "complete >>> solution" >>> >>> Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft Jan 2016 - WGLC for >>> overview draft >>> - Mar IETF - >>> Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards >>> track) >>> >>> -> this BoF group should either stay modest or ambitious but can't >>> both at >>> the same time. >> I do not understand. The milestones do not talk about "complete >> solution" at all? What are you referring to and how do you suggest we >> change it? >> >>> 2. Concerning use cases; some uses cases are qualified a priori as >>> "justified" >>> (where is the proof ?), operationally required (where is the support >>> ?) and >>> mature (have they ever been discussed on this list ?) others are >>> positioned >>> as complex, out of scope, for further study, "boiling the ocean" ... >>> for the >>> NMRG may be (if they are kind enough). >>> >>> -> This BoF group has to set a clearer process (criteria, metrics, >>> etc.) if it >>> wants to pre-select use cases and include them in the charter. >> This is a very open and broad statement. Can you please be specific? I >> don't think we should start by defining what "justified" (term is >> actually not used in the charter), "required" and "mature" means. >> >> I suggest you specifically tell us which specific things are not * >> (reuse term above). >> >>> 3. In the meantime, this arbitrary pre-selection misses feedback from >>> BoF >>> session and discussion on this list: is pre-selection the right >>> approach ? >>> assuming a pre-selection would be performed would the resulting use >>> cases >>> be sufficiently representative ? some use cases may help in progressing >>> understanding of AN but those may not necessarily correspond to the ones >>> with high priority from an operational perspective ? >>> >>> -> For all these reasons, it has been suggested to avoid >>> pre-selection and >>> prefer the approach where it is up to participant (the "community") >>> to raise >>> the case they would like to see considered in the design process and >>> not the >>> charter (which is intended to steer contributions and not a priori >>> classify >>> them as low priority (see below)). Why is this alternative not >>> considered ? >>> what are the objective arguments to favor pre-selection instead of >>> an open >>> process ? >> This discussion *is* the open process, Dimitri. :-) Please raise >> the use cases you would like to see considered, and if the community >> agrees, we'll put them on. What we can NOT have is to keep circling >> around this question forever. The goal is to have this discussion now, >> agree on one, and THEN, when the charter is agreed on, we stick to it. >> >>> 4. "Some important topics are intentionally not included in the >>> initial goals >>> as they are considered separate matters that should be considered later, >>> although they are in the scope for discussion with lower priority:" >>> >>> Yet another ambiguity: how a topic can be classified at the same time as >>> "important" but considered with "low priority"; this also opens the >>> question >>> who sets the priorities ? and more fundamentally have we documented >>> with tangible arguments where the operational priorities are ? >> Again, please refrain from general procedural questions, and state >> which topic we should include. We're open to any argument. And it is >> all of us here who set the priority. >> >>> 5. "It is recognized that autonomic functions will co-exist with >>> traditional >>> methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus will >>> be on >>> self-configuration." >>> >>> Who has recognized this fact (as phrased it looks as ground truth) ? >> We are saying that there won't be for the first phase a COMPLETE >> autonomic device with this effort, but we go function by function. I >> consider this very reasonable actually. Why do you disagree with this >> statement? Are you suggesting we should aim for fully self-managing >> devices? >> >> Again, once the charter is agreed by all the goal is that we all agree >> on what's written here. It does NOT mean that the people contributing >> to the charter so far are imposing this. >> >>> is it a >>> transient or a permanent situation ? does it imply that the initial >>> focus >>> should be on configuration ? looks again contradictory also from that >>> perspective, one could read following this statement it would be much >>> more appropriate to look at functionality remaining partially covered >>> more >>> than those covered (configuration). >> This is not the intention, and I suggest we re-phrase to "It is >> recognized that autonomic functions will FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE >> co-exist with traditional methods of management and configuration, and >> the initial focus will be on self-configuration." >> >> Would this address your concern? If not, can you suggest text please? >> >> Michael >> >>> I would appreciate the answer going well beyond the arguments "we are >>> not aiming at mathematically correct statements" (as I'd like just to >>> see >>> coherent, consistent and verifiable statements), "this is how we used >>> to do >>> it" (actually it isn't since IETF has always been driven by >>> cross-fertilization >>> and not single viewpoints), "this how AD's have asked us to shape the >>> charter" (despite the fact that ADs don't set the technical agenda, >>> don't >>> select use cases or their number, etc.) >>> >>> -d. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E >>>> Carpenter >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 2:20 AM >>>> To: anima@ietf.org >>>> Subject: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>>> >>>> ...is attached and in the wiki. Many points have been revised. >>>> I also put a list of issues addressed by this version in the wiki. >>>> >>>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Brian Carpenter >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > From nobody Thu Sep 4 13:45:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988E11A010C for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:45:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TiMhU2aiztHn for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x236.google.com (mail-ob0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D4021A0102 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f182.google.com with SMTP id va2so7820593obc.41 for ; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ntUZCdjY3pdERzB6ZXNAEaB/AIJb4/xJnm+Rer/VoSU=; b=g5SURNGzYPGWPIfulr6MEkZ5oLPEud2OZwU/EBT6JWwfidVb5pRxOyz9Ng0TnXO6t7 nkaicpR5X38Yatj8ti7Ad7+4jj9xvOD4HpLVKdSIYUG4ONV9i+8molNbH2wy3MkkqLRl WEe7f4V9JZy1DIetXoKhVcmX2ZsXkFhNUsbbpTVr9CiHAX6bu8eFwP53B+3owd3z+ztf dD2QK9qKudJcN1kb0lElT40UhifDE+iowI/jF6P1evHNkv5G1zzAAIDIUiIyG1+N91wf rmijltMdTkt4Mwo9obt/NF1XcEpnKsLc/CTb8IDZNCoDs/l2y0QzQNyPwZHwyc8Wd0pP fkyw== X-Received: by 10.60.98.105 with SMTP id eh9mr8632973oeb.56.1409863521720; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (CPE7cb21b2cb904-CM7cb21b2cb901.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [99.231.118.107]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id no6sm101881obb.6.2014.09.04.13.45.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5408CF5D.3070404@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 16:45:17 -0400 From: Rene Struik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" References: <5408CEF6.7060904@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5408CEF6.7060904@gmail.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <5408CEF6.7060904@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/A7fR8Kmv4_qhX9egr92HEjyP2xA Subject: [Anima] (pointer to prior technical discussions on docs) Re: Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 20:45:25 -0000 Hi Brian: I went through documents [1-5] and just read the new version of the gap analysis [2]. As said in my email of earlier today (9:56am EDT), I have tried and find technical discussions about the solution documents [3-5] on the mailing list, but failed. Hence, me recommending not mentioning those drafts in the charter. In case I missed something here, I would be happy to be educated and absorbing previous insights on this material. So, any pointers would be more than welcome. Best regards, Rene On 9/4/2014 4:22 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Rene, > > On 05/09/2014 01:56, Rene Struik wrote: >> Dear all: >> >> Some brief feedback on the draft charter (08): >> >> a) Remove reference to drafts [3-5] as documents to be adopted from the >> charter. > They are not proposed as documents to be adopted. They are proposed > as starting points, which is quite a different statement. I'm also > now aware of at least one other starting point for [3], which might > be added. It's very common to have such starting points for WG > discussion. > >> I have tried and find technical discussions about these documents on the >> mailing list, but failed. It is unclear what problems the designs in >> [3-5] solve, > I disagree. [4] and [5] include their own problem statements (which is > why they were considered as uses cases in the BOF). [3] has a separate > problem statement draft, draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps. > >> security goals are missing, > They all consider security requirements, so I think that is unfair, > and since they are only starting points, not even proposed for WG > adoption, they are not called on to be complete. I think everyone > is clear that an insecure autonomic control plane would be > disastrous, but we can't develop the threat model in the abstract. > >> and design seems to be adhoc. > That seems to me to be the case for every initial design. But again, > why does this really matter for starting points? > >> b) Remove unclarity as to whether the charter aims at autonomic behavior >> or coming up with a default protocol. > I don't see any ambiguity. It aims at common infrastructure as the basis > for autonomic functions, co-existing with traditional management tools. > >> The charter seems to originate from desire to simplify network >> management, but from reading documentation it seems to mostly deal with >> (yet another?) set of protocols, without making it clear how this helps >> in fostering autonomic/automatic behavior. > Now here your logic defeats me. How can we foster autonomic behaviour, > in a multivendor world, without agreeing on standard protocols to > achieve such behaviour? > > It's true, I think, that those of us working on this have not found > any existing protocol that seems to have the right characteristics, > because there is a profound difference between top-down management > and autonomic self-management. I'm not too happy about this but > there it is. > >> The main culprit here seems to be that there is no architectural >> blueprint. I am afraid having yet more point solutions to unclear >> problems does not bring simplified, yet flexible and secure network >> management, esp. for internet of things devices, closer. > I disagree with this assessment. In general, as I've mentiond before, > I have seen the IETF failing quite often when it aims at architectural > blueprints, and succeeding quite often (but certainly not always) when > it aims at simple generic tools. I believe that this is the aiming > point here too (not the same thing as point solutions). > > I thing the IoT angle needs more discussion, however. What are the > components in an IoT scenario that would act as AN service agents? > > As Michael said elsewhere, we are now looking for specific text > change proposals to the draft charter. > > Regards > Brian > >> I read the following drafts: >> [1] draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03 >> [2] draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-00 (sorry, did not read 01 yet) >> [3] draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02 >> [4] draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 >> [5] draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00 >> >> On 9/3/2014 9:09 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Papadimitriou, >>>> Dimitri (Dimitri) >>>> Sent: 03 September 2014 16:33 >>>> To: Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>>> >>>> My comments on this new version of the charter are the following: >>>> >>>> 1. "A complete solution for autonomic networking would be a very >>>> ambitious goal. The scope of this working group's effort for the >>>> initial stage >>>> is much more modest" >>>> >>>> but then milestones include specific items for delivery of a "complete >>>> solution" >>>> >>>> Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft Jan 2016 - WGLC for >>>> overview draft >>>> - Mar IETF - >>>> Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards >>>> track) >>>> >>>> -> this BoF group should either stay modest or ambitious but can't >>>> both at >>>> the same time. >>> I do not understand. The milestones do not talk about "complete >>> solution" at all? What are you referring to and how do you suggest we >>> change it? >>> >>>> 2. Concerning use cases; some uses cases are qualified a priori as >>>> "justified" >>>> (where is the proof ?), operationally required (where is the support >>>> ?) and >>>> mature (have they ever been discussed on this list ?) others are >>>> positioned >>>> as complex, out of scope, for further study, "boiling the ocean" ... >>>> for the >>>> NMRG may be (if they are kind enough). >>>> >>>> -> This BoF group has to set a clearer process (criteria, metrics, >>>> etc.) if it >>>> wants to pre-select use cases and include them in the charter. >>> This is a very open and broad statement. Can you please be specific? I >>> don't think we should start by defining what "justified" (term is >>> actually not used in the charter), "required" and "mature" means. >>> >>> I suggest you specifically tell us which specific things are not * >>> (reuse term above). >>> >>>> 3. In the meantime, this arbitrary pre-selection misses feedback from >>>> BoF >>>> session and discussion on this list: is pre-selection the right >>>> approach ? >>>> assuming a pre-selection would be performed would the resulting use >>>> cases >>>> be sufficiently representative ? some use cases may help in progressing >>>> understanding of AN but those may not necessarily correspond to the ones >>>> with high priority from an operational perspective ? >>>> >>>> -> For all these reasons, it has been suggested to avoid >>>> pre-selection and >>>> prefer the approach where it is up to participant (the "community") >>>> to raise >>>> the case they would like to see considered in the design process and >>>> not the >>>> charter (which is intended to steer contributions and not a priori >>>> classify >>>> them as low priority (see below)). Why is this alternative not >>>> considered ? >>>> what are the objective arguments to favor pre-selection instead of >>>> an open >>>> process ? >>> This discussion *is* the open process, Dimitri. :-) Please raise >>> the use cases you would like to see considered, and if the community >>> agrees, we'll put them on. What we can NOT have is to keep circling >>> around this question forever. The goal is to have this discussion now, >>> agree on one, and THEN, when the charter is agreed on, we stick to it. >>> >>>> 4. "Some important topics are intentionally not included in the >>>> initial goals >>>> as they are considered separate matters that should be considered later, >>>> although they are in the scope for discussion with lower priority:" >>>> >>>> Yet another ambiguity: how a topic can be classified at the same time as >>>> "important" but considered with "low priority"; this also opens the >>>> question >>>> who sets the priorities ? and more fundamentally have we documented >>>> with tangible arguments where the operational priorities are ? >>> Again, please refrain from general procedural questions, and state >>> which topic we should include. We're open to any argument. And it is >>> all of us here who set the priority. >>> >>>> 5. "It is recognized that autonomic functions will co-exist with >>>> traditional >>>> methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus will >>>> be on >>>> self-configuration." >>>> >>>> Who has recognized this fact (as phrased it looks as ground truth) ? >>> We are saying that there won't be for the first phase a COMPLETE >>> autonomic device with this effort, but we go function by function. I >>> consider this very reasonable actually. Why do you disagree with this >>> statement? Are you suggesting we should aim for fully self-managing >>> devices? >>> >>> Again, once the charter is agreed by all the goal is that we all agree >>> on what's written here. It does NOT mean that the people contributing >>> to the charter so far are imposing this. >>> >>>> is it a >>>> transient or a permanent situation ? does it imply that the initial >>>> focus >>>> should be on configuration ? looks again contradictory also from that >>>> perspective, one could read following this statement it would be much >>>> more appropriate to look at functionality remaining partially covered >>>> more >>>> than those covered (configuration). >>> This is not the intention, and I suggest we re-phrase to "It is >>> recognized that autonomic functions will FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE >>> co-exist with traditional methods of management and configuration, and >>> the initial focus will be on self-configuration." >>> >>> Would this address your concern? If not, can you suggest text please? >>> >>> Michael >>> >>>> I would appreciate the answer going well beyond the arguments "we are >>>> not aiming at mathematically correct statements" (as I'd like just to >>>> see >>>> coherent, consistent and verifiable statements), "this is how we used >>>> to do >>>> it" (actually it isn't since IETF has always been driven by >>>> cross-fertilization >>>> and not single viewpoints), "this how AD's have asked us to shape the >>>> charter" (despite the fact that ADs don't set the technical agenda, >>>> don't >>>> select use cases or their number, etc.) >>>> >>>> -d. >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E >>>>> Carpenter >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 2:20 AM >>>>> To: anima@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>>>> >>>>> ...is attached and in the wiki. Many points have been revised. >>>>> I also put a list of issues addressed by this version in the wiki. >>>>> >>>>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Brian Carpenter >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Anima mailing list >>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 From nobody Thu Sep 4 14:06:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6EB1A0176 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:06:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6iALgKU6Jnx9 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x22e.google.com (mail-oa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCE501A0175 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id m19so7759324oag.33 for ; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:06:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EtaSNj/3KoAS157PELUMJsVxzWBJaNOy8jOXan37f18=; b=BMKaNwaZNPESop0wWFMITeoflXwpK0MIL2a5jSalk1DsmZg2YHogtm4J/4J1DwoDv+ uIL2Tgqp9cYzvpmVTcKuJ4zs6nZwda7aqpudrrE29VA73DM8A+dV0HkyUItkmGZhCcVt H6PJmYHEP/kha+8oC/VNifbYVVbAALWUJ8d2Xb5TXSnneu8THcx/SP9B5ehD6eRMhlg+ AzelL+NQMdoJJToTQEP7TlCsJPrP6ImNxwum9sWBDTjmJSO8Vqyt0+6SaGkJh2c/rzaz w/bgd+JdmcBdqmvU2DnkWdwSskmm4HRVy14lLT7PEeWAg5elHICaj3ohfgseSa/nzLu4 +7cw== X-Received: by 10.60.41.41 with SMTP id c9mr8481620oel.76.1409864760124; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (CPE7cb21b2cb904-CM7cb21b2cb901.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [99.231.118.107]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id xm14sm110029oeb.14.2014.09.04.14.05.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5408D433.6020103@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 17:05:55 -0400 From: Rene Struik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter References: <54065EC3.9060303@gmail.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323449668@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2EB31@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <54086F90.90800@gmail.com> <5408CA0F.3030602@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5408CA0F.3030602@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/ZQKZKqL4fIAapsCgydiwNGAiWB8 Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" Subject: [Anima] (on protocol elements and systems) Re: Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 21:06:04 -0000 Hi Brian: In my mind, some IETF protocols fail not necessarily because of grand architectural blueprint visions, but because they may not solve the right problem, may not consider sufficient contextual information (e.g., by leaving out certain lifecycle elements), or do not sufficiently consider user experiences. That is why one now has mailing lists trying to tackle topics as diverse as "opportunistic security", "endymail", etc. While these are not necessarily examples in the autonomic networking realm, this illustrates that it is very well possible to arrive at a mismatch when trying to weave protocols together to form a nimble, flexible, and easy to use system. This seems to suggest that one must step back and reflect on the architectural picture as well. Hence, my assessment re "culprit". Best regards, Rene > The main culprit here seems to be that there is no architectural > blueprint. I am afraid having yet more point solutions to unclear > problems does not bring simplified, yet flexible and secure network > management, esp. for internet of things devices, closer. I disagree with this assessment. In general, as I've mentiond before, I have seen the IETF failing quite often when it aims at architectural blueprints, and succeeding quite often (but certainly not always) when it aims at simple generic tools. I believe that this is the aiming point here too (not the same thing as point solutions) On 9/4/2014 4:22 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Rene, > > On 05/09/2014 01:56, Rene Struik wrote: >> Dear all: >> >> Some brief feedback on the draft charter (08): >> >> a) Remove reference to drafts [3-5] as documents to be adopted from the >> charter. > They are not proposed as documents to be adopted. They are proposed > as starting points, which is quite a different statement. I'm also > now aware of at least one other starting point for [3], which might > be added. It's very common to have such starting points for WG > discussion. > >> I have tried and find technical discussions about these documents on the >> mailing list, but failed. It is unclear what problems the designs in >> [3-5] solve, > I disagree. [4] and [5] include their own problem statements (which is > why they were considered as uses cases in the BOF). [3] has a separate > problem statement draft, draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps. > >> security goals are missing, > They all consider security requirements, so I think that is unfair, > and since they are only starting points, not even proposed for WG > adoption, they are not called on to be complete. I think everyone > is clear that an insecure autonomic control plane would be > disastrous, but we can't develop the threat model in the abstract. > >> and design seems to be adhoc. > That seems to me to be the case for every initial design. But again, > why does this really matter for starting points? > >> b) Remove unclarity as to whether the charter aims at autonomic behavior >> or coming up with a default protocol. > I don't see any ambiguity. It aims at common infrastructure as the basis > for autonomic functions, co-existing with traditional management tools. > >> The charter seems to originate from desire to simplify network >> management, but from reading documentation it seems to mostly deal with >> (yet another?) set of protocols, without making it clear how this helps >> in fostering autonomic/automatic behavior. > Now here your logic defeats me. How can we foster autonomic behaviour, > in a multivendor world, without agreeing on standard protocols to > achieve such behaviour? > > It's true, I think, that those of us working on this have not found > any existing protocol that seems to have the right characteristics, > because there is a profound difference between top-down management > and autonomic self-management. I'm not too happy about this but > there it is. > >> The main culprit here seems to be that there is no architectural >> blueprint. I am afraid having yet more point solutions to unclear >> problems does not bring simplified, yet flexible and secure network >> management, esp. for internet of things devices, closer. > I disagree with this assessment. In general, as I've mentiond before, > I have seen the IETF failing quite often when it aims at architectural > blueprints, and succeeding quite often (but certainly not always) when > it aims at simple generic tools. I believe that this is the aiming > point here too (not the same thing as point solutions). > > I thing the IoT angle needs more discussion, however. What are the > components in an IoT scenario that would act as AN service agents? > > As Michael said elsewhere, we are now looking for specific text > change proposals to the draft charter. > > Regards > Brian > >> I read the following drafts: >> [1] draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03 >> [2] draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-00 (sorry, did not read 01 yet) >> [3] draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02 >> [4] draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 >> [5] draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00 >> >> On 9/3/2014 9:09 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Papadimitriou, >>>> Dimitri (Dimitri) >>>> Sent: 03 September 2014 16:33 >>>> To: Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>>> >>>> My comments on this new version of the charter are the following: >>>> >>>> 1. "A complete solution for autonomic networking would be a very >>>> ambitious goal. The scope of this working group's effort for the >>>> initial stage >>>> is much more modest" >>>> >>>> but then milestones include specific items for delivery of a "complete >>>> solution" >>>> >>>> Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft Jan 2016 - WGLC for >>>> overview draft >>>> - Mar IETF - >>>> Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards >>>> track) >>>> >>>> -> this BoF group should either stay modest or ambitious but can't >>>> both at >>>> the same time. >>> I do not understand. The milestones do not talk about "complete >>> solution" at all? What are you referring to and how do you suggest we >>> change it? >>> >>>> 2. Concerning use cases; some uses cases are qualified a priori as >>>> "justified" >>>> (where is the proof ?), operationally required (where is the support >>>> ?) and >>>> mature (have they ever been discussed on this list ?) others are >>>> positioned >>>> as complex, out of scope, for further study, "boiling the ocean" ... >>>> for the >>>> NMRG may be (if they are kind enough). >>>> >>>> -> This BoF group has to set a clearer process (criteria, metrics, >>>> etc.) if it >>>> wants to pre-select use cases and include them in the charter. >>> This is a very open and broad statement. Can you please be specific? I >>> don't think we should start by defining what "justified" (term is >>> actually not used in the charter), "required" and "mature" means. >>> >>> I suggest you specifically tell us which specific things are not * >>> (reuse term above). >>> >>>> 3. In the meantime, this arbitrary pre-selection misses feedback from >>>> BoF >>>> session and discussion on this list: is pre-selection the right >>>> approach ? >>>> assuming a pre-selection would be performed would the resulting use >>>> cases >>>> be sufficiently representative ? some use cases may help in progressing >>>> understanding of AN but those may not necessarily correspond to the ones >>>> with high priority from an operational perspective ? >>>> >>>> -> For all these reasons, it has been suggested to avoid >>>> pre-selection and >>>> prefer the approach where it is up to participant (the "community") >>>> to raise >>>> the case they would like to see considered in the design process and >>>> not the >>>> charter (which is intended to steer contributions and not a priori >>>> classify >>>> them as low priority (see below)). Why is this alternative not >>>> considered ? >>>> what are the objective arguments to favor pre-selection instead of >>>> an open >>>> process ? >>> This discussion *is* the open process, Dimitri. :-) Please raise >>> the use cases you would like to see considered, and if the community >>> agrees, we'll put them on. What we can NOT have is to keep circling >>> around this question forever. The goal is to have this discussion now, >>> agree on one, and THEN, when the charter is agreed on, we stick to it. >>> >>>> 4. "Some important topics are intentionally not included in the >>>> initial goals >>>> as they are considered separate matters that should be considered later, >>>> although they are in the scope for discussion with lower priority:" >>>> >>>> Yet another ambiguity: how a topic can be classified at the same time as >>>> "important" but considered with "low priority"; this also opens the >>>> question >>>> who sets the priorities ? and more fundamentally have we documented >>>> with tangible arguments where the operational priorities are ? >>> Again, please refrain from general procedural questions, and state >>> which topic we should include. We're open to any argument. And it is >>> all of us here who set the priority. >>> >>>> 5. "It is recognized that autonomic functions will co-exist with >>>> traditional >>>> methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus will >>>> be on >>>> self-configuration." >>>> >>>> Who has recognized this fact (as phrased it looks as ground truth) ? >>> We are saying that there won't be for the first phase a COMPLETE >>> autonomic device with this effort, but we go function by function. I >>> consider this very reasonable actually. Why do you disagree with this >>> statement? Are you suggesting we should aim for fully self-managing >>> devices? >>> >>> Again, once the charter is agreed by all the goal is that we all agree >>> on what's written here. It does NOT mean that the people contributing >>> to the charter so far are imposing this. >>> >>>> is it a >>>> transient or a permanent situation ? does it imply that the initial >>>> focus >>>> should be on configuration ? looks again contradictory also from that >>>> perspective, one could read following this statement it would be much >>>> more appropriate to look at functionality remaining partially covered >>>> more >>>> than those covered (configuration). >>> This is not the intention, and I suggest we re-phrase to "It is >>> recognized that autonomic functions will FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE >>> co-exist with traditional methods of management and configuration, and >>> the initial focus will be on self-configuration." >>> >>> Would this address your concern? If not, can you suggest text please? >>> >>> Michael >>> >>>> I would appreciate the answer going well beyond the arguments "we are >>>> not aiming at mathematically correct statements" (as I'd like just to >>>> see >>>> coherent, consistent and verifiable statements), "this is how we used >>>> to do >>>> it" (actually it isn't since IETF has always been driven by >>>> cross-fertilization >>>> and not single viewpoints), "this how AD's have asked us to shape the >>>> charter" (despite the fact that ADs don't set the technical agenda, >>>> don't >>>> select use cases or their number, etc.) >>>> >>>> -d. >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E >>>>> Carpenter >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 2:20 AM >>>>> To: anima@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>>>> >>>>> ...is attached and in the wiki. Many points have been revised. >>>>> I also put a list of issues addressed by this version in the wiki. >>>>> >>>>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Brian Carpenter >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Anima mailing list >>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 From nobody Thu Sep 4 14:16:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106331A017A for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:15:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ku2lVbVI_hcr for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A49471A0181 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id rd3so20645459pab.17 for ; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:15:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1K1j/YtwjvCLuMm2GFzFp2g9RKBJIlKcXNz2TGTpQVI=; b=vnRtNoKIQ1y1+lJGTnLDLc/hcgOy12ZUkyazBmhEDtpjqeaClfeyWQcnNgEPflxlMX 0TIbKRa5eGxQCbKY5rW8/Dso7eUgIIHS4lSLfAvRAHjcRCUMjmD6NpmvzJeAuQveRSSu oxlMEt0I1PrjjJleJaDgOIRtlxSHu81DhjFE8m64N9ThUiJR1vfZ4nrJt1lRaFY+Csfc cLqPEzfy3EuUf8FJWZwjnin3M0e3PZZN3J9rqGYjrV0FQe1ftqNNYQGSUZKs4X3/spCJ B8unUM7HU6qpr2uHgzWwBDuzjKNMzGZoON4KriXesvpZtSck4ZcJJ7y0bxs64AZxpxuz I2/Q== X-Received: by 10.70.131.70 with SMTP id ok6mr12793134pdb.133.1409865355042; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (189.199.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.199.189]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id zm5sm57681pbb.76.2014.09.04.14.15.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5408D6A3.9010907@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2014 09:16:19 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rene Struik References: <5408CEF6.7060904@gmail.com> <5408CF5D.3070404@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5408CF5D.3070404@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/1xvm0odtOxJrRcl0ASDuAj-S_Ng Cc: "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] (pointer to prior technical discussions on docs) Re: Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 21:15:59 -0000 Rene, The problem statement for [3] was discussed in the INTAREA and NMRG meetings at IETF 88 (Vancouver) and on the OPSAWG list (thread at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/opsawg/current/msg03147.html ) and in the OPSAWG meeting at IETF 89 (London). We didn't push the solution draft because we wanted discussion on the problem statement, but the message we got from the ADs in Vancouver was to avoid long debates about problem statements, requirements and architecture. I can't speak for the Cisco drafts. Regards Brian On 05/09/2014 08:45, Rene Struik wrote: > > Hi Brian: > > I went through documents [1-5] and just read the new version of the gap > analysis [2]. > > As said in my email of earlier today (9:56am EDT), I have tried and find > technical discussions about the solution documents [3-5] on the mailing > list, but failed. Hence, me recommending not mentioning those drafts in > the charter. > > In case I missed something here, I would be happy to be educated and > absorbing previous insights on this material. So, any pointers would be > more than welcome. > > Best regards, Rene > > On 9/4/2014 4:22 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Rene, >> >> On 05/09/2014 01:56, Rene Struik wrote: >>> Dear all: >>> >>> Some brief feedback on the draft charter (08): >>> >>> a) Remove reference to drafts [3-5] as documents to be adopted from the >>> charter. >> They are not proposed as documents to be adopted. They are proposed >> as starting points, which is quite a different statement. I'm also >> now aware of at least one other starting point for [3], which might >> be added. It's very common to have such starting points for WG >> discussion. >> >>> I have tried and find technical discussions about these documents on the >>> mailing list, but failed. It is unclear what problems the designs in >>> [3-5] solve, >> I disagree. [4] and [5] include their own problem statements (which is >> why they were considered as uses cases in the BOF). [3] has a separate >> problem statement draft, draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps. >> >>> security goals are missing, >> They all consider security requirements, so I think that is unfair, >> and since they are only starting points, not even proposed for WG >> adoption, they are not called on to be complete. I think everyone >> is clear that an insecure autonomic control plane would be >> disastrous, but we can't develop the threat model in the abstract. >> >>> and design seems to be adhoc. >> That seems to me to be the case for every initial design. But again, >> why does this really matter for starting points? >> >>> b) Remove unclarity as to whether the charter aims at autonomic behavior >>> or coming up with a default protocol. >> I don't see any ambiguity. It aims at common infrastructure as the basis >> for autonomic functions, co-existing with traditional management tools. >> >>> The charter seems to originate from desire to simplify network >>> management, but from reading documentation it seems to mostly deal with >>> (yet another?) set of protocols, without making it clear how this helps >>> in fostering autonomic/automatic behavior. >> Now here your logic defeats me. How can we foster autonomic behaviour, >> in a multivendor world, without agreeing on standard protocols to >> achieve such behaviour? >> >> It's true, I think, that those of us working on this have not found >> any existing protocol that seems to have the right characteristics, >> because there is a profound difference between top-down management >> and autonomic self-management. I'm not too happy about this but >> there it is. >> >>> The main culprit here seems to be that there is no architectural >>> blueprint. I am afraid having yet more point solutions to unclear >>> problems does not bring simplified, yet flexible and secure network >>> management, esp. for internet of things devices, closer. >> I disagree with this assessment. In general, as I've mentiond before, >> I have seen the IETF failing quite often when it aims at architectural >> blueprints, and succeeding quite often (but certainly not always) when >> it aims at simple generic tools. I believe that this is the aiming >> point here too (not the same thing as point solutions). >> >> I thing the IoT angle needs more discussion, however. What are the >> components in an IoT scenario that would act as AN service agents? >> >> As Michael said elsewhere, we are now looking for specific text >> change proposals to the draft charter. >> >> Regards >> Brian >> >>> I read the following drafts: >>> [1] draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03 >>> [2] draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-00 (sorry, did not read 01 yet) >>> [3] draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02 >>> [4] draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 >>> [5] draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00 >>> >>> On 9/3/2014 9:09 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Papadimitriou, >>>>> Dimitri (Dimitri) >>>>> Sent: 03 September 2014 16:33 >>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>>>> >>>>> My comments on this new version of the charter are the following: >>>>> >>>>> 1. "A complete solution for autonomic networking would be a very >>>>> ambitious goal. The scope of this working group's effort for the >>>>> initial stage >>>>> is much more modest" >>>>> >>>>> but then milestones include specific items for delivery of a "complete >>>>> solution" >>>>> >>>>> Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft Jan 2016 - WGLC for >>>>> overview draft >>>>> - Mar IETF - >>>>> Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards >>>>> track) >>>>> >>>>> -> this BoF group should either stay modest or ambitious but can't >>>>> both at >>>>> the same time. >>>> I do not understand. The milestones do not talk about "complete >>>> solution" at all? What are you referring to and how do you suggest we >>>> change it? >>>> >>>>> 2. Concerning use cases; some uses cases are qualified a priori as >>>>> "justified" >>>>> (where is the proof ?), operationally required (where is the support >>>>> ?) and >>>>> mature (have they ever been discussed on this list ?) others are >>>>> positioned >>>>> as complex, out of scope, for further study, "boiling the ocean" ... >>>>> for the >>>>> NMRG may be (if they are kind enough). >>>>> >>>>> -> This BoF group has to set a clearer process (criteria, metrics, >>>>> etc.) if it >>>>> wants to pre-select use cases and include them in the charter. >>>> This is a very open and broad statement. Can you please be specific? I >>>> don't think we should start by defining what "justified" (term is >>>> actually not used in the charter), "required" and "mature" means. >>>> >>>> I suggest you specifically tell us which specific things are not * >>>> (reuse term above). >>>> >>>>> 3. In the meantime, this arbitrary pre-selection misses feedback from >>>>> BoF >>>>> session and discussion on this list: is pre-selection the right >>>>> approach ? >>>>> assuming a pre-selection would be performed would the resulting use >>>>> cases >>>>> be sufficiently representative ? some use cases may help in >>>>> progressing >>>>> understanding of AN but those may not necessarily correspond to the >>>>> ones >>>>> with high priority from an operational perspective ? >>>>> >>>>> -> For all these reasons, it has been suggested to avoid >>>>> pre-selection and >>>>> prefer the approach where it is up to participant (the "community") >>>>> to raise >>>>> the case they would like to see considered in the design process and >>>>> not the >>>>> charter (which is intended to steer contributions and not a priori >>>>> classify >>>>> them as low priority (see below)). Why is this alternative not >>>>> considered ? >>>>> what are the objective arguments to favor pre-selection instead of >>>>> an open >>>>> process ? >>>> This discussion *is* the open process, Dimitri. :-) Please raise >>>> the use cases you would like to see considered, and if the community >>>> agrees, we'll put them on. What we can NOT have is to keep circling >>>> around this question forever. The goal is to have this discussion now, >>>> agree on one, and THEN, when the charter is agreed on, we stick to it. >>>> >>>>> 4. "Some important topics are intentionally not included in the >>>>> initial goals >>>>> as they are considered separate matters that should be considered >>>>> later, >>>>> although they are in the scope for discussion with lower priority:" >>>>> >>>>> Yet another ambiguity: how a topic can be classified at the same >>>>> time as >>>>> "important" but considered with "low priority"; this also opens the >>>>> question >>>>> who sets the priorities ? and more fundamentally have we documented >>>>> with tangible arguments where the operational priorities are ? >>>> Again, please refrain from general procedural questions, and state >>>> which topic we should include. We're open to any argument. And it is >>>> all of us here who set the priority. >>>> >>>>> 5. "It is recognized that autonomic functions will co-exist with >>>>> traditional >>>>> methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus will >>>>> be on >>>>> self-configuration." >>>>> >>>>> Who has recognized this fact (as phrased it looks as ground truth) ? >>>> We are saying that there won't be for the first phase a COMPLETE >>>> autonomic device with this effort, but we go function by function. I >>>> consider this very reasonable actually. Why do you disagree with this >>>> statement? Are you suggesting we should aim for fully self-managing >>>> devices? >>>> >>>> Again, once the charter is agreed by all the goal is that we all agree >>>> on what's written here. It does NOT mean that the people contributing >>>> to the charter so far are imposing this. >>>> >>>>> is it a >>>>> transient or a permanent situation ? does it imply that the initial >>>>> focus >>>>> should be on configuration ? looks again contradictory also from that >>>>> perspective, one could read following this statement it would be much >>>>> more appropriate to look at functionality remaining partially covered >>>>> more >>>>> than those covered (configuration). >>>> This is not the intention, and I suggest we re-phrase to "It is >>>> recognized that autonomic functions will FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE >>>> co-exist with traditional methods of management and configuration, and >>>> the initial focus will be on self-configuration." >>>> >>>> Would this address your concern? If not, can you suggest text please? >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>>> I would appreciate the answer going well beyond the arguments "we are >>>>> not aiming at mathematically correct statements" (as I'd like just to >>>>> see >>>>> coherent, consistent and verifiable statements), "this is how we used >>>>> to do >>>>> it" (actually it isn't since IETF has always been driven by >>>>> cross-fertilization >>>>> and not single viewpoints), "this how AD's have asked us to shape the >>>>> charter" (despite the fact that ADs don't set the technical agenda, >>>>> don't >>>>> select use cases or their number, etc.) >>>>> >>>>> -d. >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E >>>>>> Carpenter >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 2:20 AM >>>>>> To: anima@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: [Anima] Charter draft 8... >>>>>> >>>>>> ...is attached and in the wiki. Many points have been revised. >>>>>> I also put a list of issues addressed by this version in the wiki. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Brian Carpenter >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Anima mailing list >>>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Anima mailing list >>>> Anima@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>> > > From nobody Thu Sep 4 17:59:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B492D1A02F7 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 17:58:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1GNv71ksL_-Y for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 17:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AE631A02E0 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 17:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BME78395; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:58:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 01:58:49 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.78]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 08:58:43 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Rene Struik , Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] (pointer to prior technical discussions on docs) Re: Charter draft 8... Thread-Index: AQHPyIEu2PlyGAlhaU2qTL1B430DQJvxthjA Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 00:58:42 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF15BEC@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <5408CEF6.7060904@gmail.com> <5408CF5D.3070404@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5408CF5D.3070404@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.145] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/4QoPtnnNGnDsS14rc4MfiEWSPVg Subject: Re: [Anima] (pointer to prior technical discussions on docs) Re: Charter draft 8... X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:58:57 -0000 SGksIFJlbmUgYW5kIGFsbCwNCg0KVGhlcmUgaXMgYW5vdGhlciBkcmFmdCAtICJOZXR3b3JrIENv bmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gTmVnb3RpYXRpb24gUHJvYmxlbSBTdGF0ZW1lbnQgYW5kIFJlcXVpcmVtZW50 cyINCmh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1qaWFuZy1jb25maWctbmVnb3Rp YXRpb24tcHMtMDMNCg0KSXQgZ2l2ZXMgdGhlIGRldGFpbCBhbmFseXNpcyB3aHkgd2UgbmVlZCBh IGdlbmVyaWMgbmVnb3RpYXRpb24gcHJvdG9jb2wsIHdoeSB0aGUgZXhpc3RpbmcgcHJvdG9jb2xz IGRvIG5vdCBmaXQsIGFuZCBkZXNjcmliZXMgYSBnZW5lcmljIG5lZ290aWF0aW9uIGJlaGF2aW9y IG1vZGVsLCB3aGljaCBkb2N1bWVudCBbM10gZm9sbG93cy4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpT aGVuZw0KDQo+LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj5Gcm9tOiBBbmltYSBbbWFpbHRv OmFuaW1hLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBSZW5lIFN0cnVpaw0KPlNlbnQ6 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"Liubing (Leo)" To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A minor comment on the Charter V8-//RE: ANIMA Conf Call Thread-Index: Ac/HDiAlGe3YeNX+QBaXA2/JQ2jf5QAAFEJQAHdi5FA= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 09:53:58 +0000 Message-ID: <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D920CFD@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2D47E@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2D47E@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.132] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D920CFDnkgeml506mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/LHIIOEAM9IAarF0zQWCFi8FW8ww Subject: [Anima] A minor comment on the Charter V8-//RE: ANIMA Conf Call X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 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H= i Michael & all,
 
Q= uoted in the charter:
= =A1=B0[non-goals]
S= ome important topics are intentionally not included in the initial goals as= they are
c= onsidered separate matters that should be considered later, although they a= re in the scope
f= or discussion with lower priority:
o= Mechanism for distributing policy intent to autonomic nodes
o= Use of data analytics by autonomic nodes
o= Other external information sources
o= System-wide integration of autonomics=A1=B1
 
M= y comment at the end of the call was: I was a bit concerned about the above= listed things to be called as =A1=B0non-goals=A1=B1.
T= here are many things that we won=A1=AFt do, so it might be difficult to enu= merate all the non-goals. My feeling of the above listed things is that the= y are actually the work we probably will do after finishing current goals. So I agree with the content which I think is= a good hint for the reader what the potential next steps are. I just conce= rn about the title, maybe we can call them =A1=B0Potential future works=A1= =B1 and move them right after the [main goal] section.
 
B= est regards,
B= ing
 
-----Original Appointment-----
From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 8:32 AM
To: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang; Toerless Eckert (eckert)
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA Conf Call
When: 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C24=C8=D5=D0=C7=C6=DA= =CB=C4 22:00-23:00(UTC+08:00)=E7=EA= =CB=B9=A1=A3
Where: webex
 
 
This is the next ANIMA conference call, at 1400 UTC. =
 
Michael
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--_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D920CFDnkgeml506mbxchi_-- From nobody Fri Sep 5 13:27:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EAB1A010A for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 13:27:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K5IFoVaMp5fs for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22a.google.com (mail-pd0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A5651A00D1 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f170.google.com with SMTP id r10so16374429pdi.15 for ; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pz4SeqDUFeC6a31s6iiv8aXiDC3C1kvALZWUnBCNsX4=; b=apYqcP7S+UJL5I04ByACDpl9Hhw1KZvdablq+SRmu4aSc/EfGpRIZvlML4W7cLLQQ2 5OqmperuZcqDgxYN5CLJwe396mzS5y+AkugJLBLZBFseKbwPXGtkULO4qs9hUkhhmkcC hE+HGSG3ycg8nsnt6U3/sK9Gb4Le5tOm4CdFucAPGJTmT4hgc781h5oGEfu58KwjMB36 NT0t0f6zEsNuz2MXJ4v9HpJUdUwj6JBqYftwkpBXGRH/3+dbY6TAWuQJu0V4iCbcFRUE 5NKS1b2vvMpQY7QDmwCYvgLdi9w95ncINl19L8vT7EXlo2qmTnehgeRCZbMAvmI1f/1b IS5Q== X-Received: by 10.70.47.2 with SMTP id z2mr25805880pdm.38.1409948822260; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (234.192.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.192.234]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id o2sm2505742pde.30.2014.09.05.13.26.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Sep 2014 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <540A1CAF.10801@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2014 08:27:27 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Liubing (Leo)" References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2D47E@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D920CFD@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D920CFD@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/A-MsTLi56vfHmIN24wLa1bFZLG0 Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] A minor comment on the Charter V8-//RE: ANIMA Conf Call X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2014 20:27:04 -0000 Hi Bing, On 05/09/2014 21:53, Liubing (Leo) wrote: > Hi Michael & all, >=20 > Quoted in the charter: > =E2=80=9C[non-goals] > Some important topics are intentionally not included in the initial goa= ls as they are > considered separate matters that should be considered later, although t= hey are in the scope > for discussion with lower priority: > o Mechanism for distributing policy intent to autonomic nodes > o Use of data analytics by autonomic nodes > o Other external information sources > o System-wide integration of autonomics=E2=80=9D >=20 > My comment at the end of the call was: I was a bit concerned about the = above listed things to be called as =E2=80=9Cnon-goals=E2=80=9D. > There are many things that we won=E2=80=99t do, so it might be difficul= t to enumerate all the non-goals. My feeling of the above listed things i= s that they are actually the work we probably will do after finishing cur= rent goals. So I agree with the content which I think is a good hint for = the reader what the potential next steps are. I just concern about the ti= tle, maybe we can call them =E2=80=9CPotential future works=E2=80=9D and = move them right after the [main goal] section. The little note [non goals] will not be in the final charter. So I think the text intends to say exactly what you mean. Certainly it is impossible to list everything that we will not do. Brian > Best regards, > Bing >=20 > -----Original Appointment----- > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 8:32 AM > To: anima@ietf.org; Sheng Jiang; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > Subject: [Anima] ANIMA Conf Call > When: 2014=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=884=E6=97=A5=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B 2= 2:00-23:00(UTC+08:00)=E7=8F=80=E6=96=AF=E3=80=82 > Where: webex >=20 >=20 > This is the next ANIMA conference call, at 1400 UTC. >=20 > Michael > ******* DO NOT DELETE OR CHANGE ANY OF THE TEXT BELOW THIS LINE ****= *** >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > JOIN USING WebEx >=20 > Go To: > https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dme2706aefadd914c557da9e62= 150bc17a >=20 > Meeting Password ----- anima > Meeting Number ----- 202 583 286 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ALERT =E2=80=93 PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM = WITHIN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Please dial the local access number for your area from the list belo= w: > - San Jose/Milpitas (408) area: 525-6800 > - RTP (919) area: 392-3330 >=20 > Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area code= s is not enabled (non-Cisco phones). =E2=80=9C If you dial the toll-free= numbers within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang = up and dial the local access number.=E2=80=9D Please use the call-back op= tion whenever possible and otherwise dial local numbers only. The affect= ed toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jose/Milpitas area a= nd (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area. >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > To join the teleconference only > ------------------------------------------------------- > 1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at > http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html > 2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or = Access Code followed by the # sign. >=20 > San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800 RTP: +1.919.392.3330 >=20 > US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903 United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117 >=20 > India: +91.80.4350.1111 Germany: +49.619.6773.9002 >=20 > Japan: +81.3.5763.9394 China: +86.10.8515.5666 >=20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows = audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during th= e session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically cons= ent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss y= our concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or= do not join the session. Please note that any such recordings may be sub= ject to discovery in the event of litigation. >=20 > http://www.webex.com >=20 > << File: ATT00001.txt >> >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Fri Sep 5 16:57:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7B01A066C for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 16:57:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.312 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.312 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, FRT_PROFILE2=1.981, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YhjKp3IcapF3 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 16:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 697F01A0669 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 16:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 1D6C54D6F48A0; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 23:57:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s85Nvb8d017053 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 6 Sep 2014 01:57:37 +0200 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.52]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Sat, 6 Sep 2014 01:57:38 +0200 From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Follow-up on Sep.4 call [was RE: Notes from the ANIMA call today] Thread-Index: AQHPyWUqpy/UKmZMu0SHl1bhzS6Fdg== Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 23:57:36 +0000 Message-ID: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832344C4D2@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2F133@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2F133@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/CIL2OuSzmN04fK9uQTF-alHLu8E Subject: [Anima] Follow-up on Sep.4 call [was RE: Notes from the ANIMA call today] X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2014 23:57:43 -0000 Different opinions on how to bring this work forward have been expressed on= this list over last 2 to 3 weeks. =20 The fundamental discussion point can be summarized as follows: some conside= r the traditional protocol-driven approach of the IETF others due to the ve= ry nature of AN consider that proper design requires to start from function= al areas/use cases, leading in turn to different charter proposals. Following the latter, I have made that exercise as follow-up of the discuss= ion held during the call of Sep.4:=20 Current network processes perform independently on different views/partial = information and by different means while interactions among their constitut= ing entities take place at different spatial scales (from local to global).= These processes also operate in the dark as the information to which they = get access to/store is mostly limited to the one translating local protocol= state(s) at current time. Finally, these processes have been designed to r= ealize specific objectives which are often difficult to combine and reconci= le preventing in turn the realization of more complex tasks (and involving = multiple processes). Nowadays, the only mean to compensate these limits is = to involve manual intervention/off-line control. =20 This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network process= es, driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions, aut= onomously translate them into local actions, and adapt them according to ex= ternal information and protocol information bases. This paradigm is referre= d to an autonomic networking. Numerous realizations of this paradigm are possible. One of its simplest fo= rms has been documented in [nmrg] where an information processing agent (IP= A) is collocated with the set of protocol engines it drives. An IPA process= es the input selected from external information sources and protocol inform= ation bases in cooperation with other IPAs, to derive states (information n= eeded to make a decision now or in the future) and translate them into loca= l actions (i.e. local policies).=20 Application of this paradigm comprises use cases ranging from configuration= to protection (security). For instance, considering the case of anomaly/at= tack/intrusion detection and related re-configuration operations i) automat= ion is motivated because automata/programs are more proficient than humans = in realizing systematic and exhaustive tasks such as ACL (re-configuration)= , ii) adaptation is required as new anomalies and attacks are constantly de= tected, and iii) cooperation and autonomy as each identified event requires= both coordination and translation into different local actions to counter = it. Challenges: ---------- 1. As use cases are numerous and diverse, the following question stems: can= inter-agent protocol primitives be unified and can agent functionality be = factorized.=20 2. Different "cooperation modes" between IPA's can be considered from slave= -master-slave to consensus; hence, the following question stems: would one = cooperation mode fit all needs. 3. Finally, the information source selection and orchestration of actions (= sequencing of instructions to protocol engines) requires to specify appropr= iate pre- and post-processing as these agents are required to be self-suffi= cient.=20 Tasks: ----- Step 0: Functional areas where the working group agrees to contribute (risk= mitigation/avoidance, re-configuration/-programming, etc.) by providing at= least one use case per functional area. Step 1: Evaluation work on resulting use cases, document input, output, AN = function, and distributivity needs (exchange of information from external s= ources, exchange with other AN agents, orchestrate execution/realization of= decisions, etc.) and cooperation modes. -> Goal: show the functional "utility" of AN and provide incentives for the= design of the ACP Step 2: AN control functional specification (in particular, cross-function = single AN vs. cross-element multi AN) following the design goals of factori= zation, distribution, and unification and determine if protocol functionali= ty already "available" in other/existing protocol (with/without extensions)= or new protocol that could be needed. -> Goal show the utility and feasibility of a "common AN infrastructure"=20 Step 3: Depending on the outcome of step 2, extensions of existing protocol= s, new protocol design, etc. can be considered. =20 Milestones: ---------- X 2015 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts X 2015 + 12m - Uses cases evaluation and analysis - what did we learn ? X 2015 + 18m - Functional specification - what do we miss (in terms of prot= ocols) ? X 2015 + 30m - Protocol specification(s)=20 X 2015 + 36m - ACP architecture (informational) Thanks, -dimitri. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringe= r > (mbehring) > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 5:33 PM > To: anima@ietf.org > Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA call today >=20 > Here is the recording: > https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D2d44676cde11469b9639c87= 977 > 1a8e3f >=20 > And below are the notes, thanks Toerless for taking them! >=20 > Michael >=20 > --- >=20 > Participants > Michael Behringer > Bing Liu > Dan Romascanu > Dean > Dimitri P. > Guy Meador > Laurent Ciavaglia > Rene Struik > Sheng Jiang > Yu Fu >=20 >=20 > Call #4. Target to stabilize the draft charter #8 published from last > weeks meeting. >=20 > August 26/29 updated NMRG drafts: Definition and gap analysis. > Asked for last call on both drafts in NMRG. >=20 > Rene Struik: Need to be more clear what charter goal is: > Autonomic Networking vs. stripping down #competing protocols. >=20 > Rene Struik: seems it is premature to go for adoption of the three > documents in the charter. It is unclear what philosophy is behind the > protocols. > Shen: These protocols are just meant to be starting points. WG is to star= t > working on these problm areas. First adoption calls will be November. > Still time make documents more mature. > Rene Struik: But charter says "adoption of drafts". Fear these will be > point solutions to unclear problems. >=20 > Michael: Goal is to come up with common infrastructure for the problems i= n > scope. Does not mean we have to build new protocols, can also take > existing ones. >=20 > Rene Struik: Wrt to negotiation protocol. I think about IoT applications, > and the current proposal seems badly applicable. Maybe discussing the > philosophy of the protocols should be one of the first goal of the > charter. >=20 > Laurent: Why do we need to list these documents in the charter ? > Michael: leaving them out would make the charter even less clear. > Rene: Usually do not see references to drafts in other charter. Should > there not simply be just topics that should be discussed in the charter > instead ? Dan Romascanu: Agreed with Laurent. > Sheng Jiang: Agreed. >=20 > Laurent: Common infrastructure question. Where/how do we see the role of > autonomic in it. SHould the protocols control atonomic functions, or be > autonomic themselves. Question 2: Internet deployment or design principle= s > to improve future protocols with autonomic philosophy applied to other > groups protocols. >=20 > Michael: Please propose text on the anima working group to improve charte= r > text. Wrt to NMRG drat comments >=20 > Discussion about mentioning of area director responsiblity in charter. > Michael: AD responsible to approve future charter changes. Negotiate with > AD to work in a controlled way through the number of use cases to solve. > REne: maybe this is a note that should be removed after finalization. >=20 > Discussio about how many use cases beyond those solved by the > infrastructure we should ave. Conclusion was one. >=20 > Dimitri: Why do we need to build protocols to solve use-cases. > Value is not based on added value of synchronizing agents better than > today. Other bodies who have tried to tackle this problem have also tried > to build an infrastructure first and then focus on use cases. >=20 > PCE was a very good example. The overall use-case is the proof point tht > helpe shape the 4 year work for those protocols. >=20 > Michael: current tentative use-case is IPv6 prefix management. > Dimitri: fears this is not generic enough ?! Need to wy to show flexiblit= y > of agent model. >=20 > Laurent: Can we show in one single use case example how to reuse the > common infraastructure ? What we should focus on in the demonstation use > case, that we can check over multiple use-cases, we can solve each of the= m > with the common component. >=20 > How to write the charter: Laurent: leave more headroom to the WG to decid= e > what it will deliver. >=20 > Dimitiri: Success in functionality in use-cases. Sucess in design based o= n > reuseability. Both can/should be in charter. But protocols are third step= . >=20 > Sheng: The negotiation protocol wold be an aspect of reuseable design. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Tue Sep 9 20:40:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5E71A0495 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 20:40:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Zl_yTvw8Iuh for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 20:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9A7D1A047C for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 20:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id kx10so6801203pab.31 for ; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:40:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FRQVWtWjirNTLsn8kGSDipvCfv1aQLEj/u7JYGA5NYc=; b=p/D1Rg283E5ANi6R5a5AyPMDytqtq8m85H3bKQ5N1sAoE6sqWjE6vPUv98IajVgeVF JiiFqu2xOpymSc0u9/tjc19hzYRENF/nBa/wV07MYYkPNQGdgdryfiX9UywoM1kP39ar ksrGhEu4upY+x9uqKI3C9MmbJ6KXlQJNfcCMVwzi6QRpo8X94xUf6gdLipkio0bjP7E6 +qc9iIkScNIVsPPx4F583Hmj47kIcVsrCkei+FahWXb1omzoSTL9nYG3JGwsT+4gmOTP +rIpMLeN9Kos1nguhue1/5/0rmhfYnLNq8GALlW6v0HdTdD6cc4fnYl70jSgX7lOZgJ1 +Pjw== X-Received: by 10.70.15.161 with SMTP id y1mr35204738pdc.61.1410320427408; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (221.199.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.199.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id or4sm13107085pdb.19.2014.09.09.20.40.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <540FC82F.3030300@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 15:40:31 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leo Dorrendorf References: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> <103BE3CE0C5F5646936FBC53A2C7511F1BC60EF1@EXCHANGE2.discretix.com> In-Reply-To: <103BE3CE0C5F5646936FBC53A2C7511F1BC60EF1@EXCHANGE2.discretix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/0tHliVzqudT9my2zxi3APaOdYdc Cc: "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 03:40:31 -0000 On 02/09/2014 18:56, Leo Dorrendorf wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Well-written and very clear. > > Perhaps you could avoid the biological definition of "autonomic" Hmm. I actually prefer to explain the origins of the word. > and use the definition found in the Wikipedia article on autonomic computing: > "Autonomic computing refers to the self-managing characteristics of distributed computing resources, adapting to unpredictable changes while hiding intrinsic complexity to operators and users." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_computing Yes, that isn't bad. Thanks. > > Best regards, > Leo Dorrendorf. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 4:39 AM > To: anima@ietf.org > Subject: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal > > Hi, > > After the UCAN BOF I was asked to write an article for the IETF Journal. > This will be a signed article that doesn't claim to represent anyody's opinion but mine, but I would be very happy to receive comments on the draft during the next week. I've borrowed material from the BOF poster and from the draft charter. The draft article is in the wiki: > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/JournalArticle/IETFJ-UCAN.pdf > > If you are not familiar with the journal, see http://www.internetsociety.org/publications/ietf-journal > > "The articles published in the IETF Journal are not intended to reflect the opinions or the position of the IETF or the Internet Society." > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > . > From nobody Wed Sep 10 00:45:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22471A066C for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 00:45:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WxThtcZ79NY0 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 00:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53E9A1A066A for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 00:45:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9471; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1410335103; x=1411544703; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=GrJc64lMCBoDgjSeFuItx5VQE/wJtK8geyGsjiofY2M=; b=WGSIqSIpbog5LByyO80MZZSa3K2leMXkWfbOdnMCqir+RxQQLKBh+WEs kRhLIekKsPChZJxV4PzWvlIEkiiLmSf33dMa2Dg1b4h0MPf8sdHEujJ8V pmB/EKZHE0AuuWLJ26kfk/o1yex701pgJo+HOLWTIwnoFmxNzTbcrPkU/ s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjoFANIAEFStJV2b/2dsb2JhbAA/FwOCR0ZTVwSCeMcnh0oBGXEWeIQFAQICIwo5Ah8EASoKBAwGAgQZFyQCAQEDG4g6DTaYJI80hU6PUwEXBI05gUwTLRwHgmE2gR0FinqEMoIVhDCEMYQJk3aDDFVsAYFHgQcBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,496,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="354016521" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Sep 2014 07:45:03 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x05.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x05.cisco.com [173.36.12.79]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8A7j1rF014172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:45:01 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.204]) by xhc-aln-x05.cisco.com ([173.36.12.79]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:45:01 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: ANIMA conference call Thread-Index: Ac/MyrnKyiSCV2OiSR6hGuZVGkOSiAAAGWdA Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:45:01 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C36501@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.132] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C36501xmbrcdx14ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/SASZIbSdxG7QjwBuaGBm-O82M1M Subject: [Anima] ANIMA conference call X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:45:04 -0000 --_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C36501xmbrcdx14ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable his call is to discuss the ANIMA charter and next steps. The meeting will be recorded. It is an official IETF meeting, and the "note well" applies to this meeting= . Michael Host key: 873069 Join WebEx meeting Meeting number: 306 341 917 Meeting password: anima Join bTy phone +1-866-432-9903 Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada) +1-408-525-6800 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 306 341 917 Global call-in numbers | Toll-free calling restrictions= Can't join the meeting? Contact support. IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this WebEx service allows audio and othe= r information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be discover= able in a legal matter. You should inform all meeting attendees prior to re= cording if you intend to record the meeting. --_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C36501xmbrcdx14ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
his call is to discuss the ANIMA charter and n= ext steps.
The meeting will be recorded.
It is an official IETF meeting, and the “= ;note well” applies to this meeting.
 
Michael
 
Host key: 873069 
Join WebEx meeting
Meeting number:  306 341 917   &= nbsp; 
Meeting password:     = ;  anima  
 
 
Join bTy phone 
+1-866-432-9903 Call-in toll-free number (US/Ca= nada) 
+1-408-525-6800 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)=  
Access code: 306 341 917 
= Global call-in numbers  |  Toll-free calling restrictions  


 
Can't join the meeting? Contact support.  
 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this WebEx servi= ce allows audio and other information sent during the session to be recorde= d, which may be discoverable in a legal matter. You should inform all meeti= ng attendees prior to recording if you intend to record the meeting.
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Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:31:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FRT_PROFILE2=1.981, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MqPnKPshMCDI for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 045371A06BB for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id E6D00CD662FDC; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 09:31:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s8A9VGGs005142 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 11:31:16 +0200 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.52]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 11:31:16 +0200 From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Follow-up on Sep.4 call [was RE: Notes from the ANIMA call today] Thread-Index: Ac/IVVBll8/OeUbkQL6yVa4egc+45gA+B4vg Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 09:31:15 +0000 Message-ID: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234514B1@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2F133@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C2F133@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/uYnHcn2WFqsuKJCnLnnjZBtCKXs Subject: [Anima] Follow-up on Sep.4 call [was RE: Notes from the ANIMA call today] X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 09:31:22 -0000 Different opinions on how to bring this work forward have been expressed on= this list over last 2 to 3 weeks. I have also discussed with several peopl= e the articulation of these different steps/tasks. This led me to think abo= ut the following analogy: before RSVP/RFC 2205 there was a model IntServ/RF= C 1633 until protocol specification remained in the frame of this model its= design had been well articulated; on the other hand, efforts to provide ne= xt steps without identifying objective boundaries leads unfortunately to an= open ended protocol effort though it had shown that translating functional= ity into protocols has no unique 1:1 match; hence, articulation of the anim= a tasks would benefit from exploiting what has been learned out of these ex= periences: Tasks: ----- Step 0 (before start of WG): Functional areas where the working group agree= s to contribute (risk mitigation/avoidance, re-configuration/-programming, = etc.) by providing at least one use case per functional area.=20 Step 1: Evaluation work of AN components (orchestration execution/realizati= on of decisions, etc.), distributivity needs (exchange of information from = external sources, exchange between AN agents, etc.) and cooperation modes a= gainst representative set of use cases -> Goals: evaluate AN components against representative set of use cases an= d layout design of lightweight and reusable AN components Step 2: ACP, a.k.a. common AN infrastructure, specification (in particular,= cross-function single AN vs. cross-element multi AN) following the design = goals of factorization, distribution, and unification required across use c= ases; determine if protocol functionality already "available" in other/exis= ting protocol (with/without extensions) or new protocol(s) could be needed. -> Goals: show the utility and feasibility of a common AN infrastructure (p= ut/articulate AN components together across use cases) Step 3: Depending on the outcome of step 2, extensions of existing protocol= s, new protocol design/specification, etc. can be considered. ----- For the record, the complete text here below: Current network processes perform independently on different views/partial = information and by different means while interactions among their constitut= ing entities take place at different spatial scales (from local to global).= These processes also operate in the dark as the information to which they = get access to/store is mostly limited to the one translating local protocol= state(s) at current time. Finally, these processes have been designed to r= ealize specific objectives which are often difficult to combine and reconci= le preventing in turn the realization of more complex tasks (and involving = multiple processes). Nowadays, the only mean to compensate these limits is = to involve manual intervention/off-line control. =20 This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network process= es, driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions, aut= onomously translate them into local actions, and adapt them according to ex= ternal information and protocol information bases. This paradigm is referre= d to an autonomic networking. Numerous realizations of this paradigm are possible. One of its simplest fo= rms has been documented in [nmrg] where an information processing agent (IP= A) is collocated with the set of protocol engines it drives. An IPA process= es the input selected from external information sources and protocol inform= ation bases in cooperation with other IPAs, to derive states (information n= eeded to make a decision now or in the future) and translate them into loca= l actions (i.e. local policies).=20 Application of this paradigm comprises use cases ranging from configuration= to protection (security). For instance, considering the case of anomaly/at= tack/intrusion detection and related re-configuration operations i) automat= ion is motivated because automata/programs are more proficient than humans = in realizing systematic and exhaustive tasks such as ACL (re-configuration)= , ii) adaptation is required as new anomalies and attacks are constantly de= tected, and iii) cooperation and autonomy as each identified event requires= both coordination and translation into different local actions to counter = it. Challenges: ---------- 1. As use cases are numerous and diverse, the following question stems: can= inter-agent protocol primitives be unified and can agent functionality be = factorized.=20 2. Different "cooperation modes" between IPA's can be considered from slave= -master-slave to consensus; hence, the following question stems: would one = cooperation mode fit all needs. 3. Finally, the information source selection and orchestration of actions (= sequencing of instructions to protocol engines) requires to specify appropr= iate pre- and post-processing as these agents are required to be self-suffi= cient.=20 Tasks: ----- Step 0 (before start of WG): Functional areas where the working group agree= s to contribute (risk mitigation/avoidance, re-configuration/-programming, = etc.) by providing at least one use case per functional area.=20 Step 1: Evaluation work of AN components (orchestration execution/realizati= on of decisions, etc.), distributivity needs (exchange of information from = external sources, exchange between AN agents, etc.) and cooperation modes a= gainst representative set of use cases -> Goals: evaluate AN components against representative set of use cases an= d layout design of lightweight and reusable AN components Step 2: ACP, a.k.a. common AN infrastructure, specification (in particular,= cross-function single AN vs. cross-element multi AN) following the design = goals of factorization, distribution, and unification required across use c= ases; determine if protocol functionality already "available" in other/exis= ting protocol (with/without extensions) or new protocol(s) could be needed. -> Goals: show the utility and feasibility of a common AN infrastructure (p= ut/articulate AN components together across use cases) Step 3: Depending on the outcome of step 2, extensions of existing protocol= s, new protocol design/specification, etc. can be considered. =20 Milestones: ---------- X 2015 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts X 2015 + 12m - Uses cases evaluation and analysis - what did we learn ? X 2015 + 18m - Functional specification - what do we miss (in terms of prot= ocols) ? X 2015 + 30m - Protocol specification(s)=20 X 2015 + 36m - ACP architecture (informational) Thanks, -dimitri. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringe= r > (mbehring) > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 5:33 PM > To: anima@ietf.org > Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA call today >=20 > Here is the recording: > https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D2d44676cde11469b9639c87= 977 > 1a8e3f >=20 > And below are the notes, thanks Toerless for taking them! >=20 > Michael >=20 > --- >=20 > Participants > Michael Behringer > Bing Liu > Dan Romascanu > Dean > Dimitri P. > Guy Meador > Laurent Ciavaglia > Rene Struik > Sheng Jiang > Yu Fu >=20 >=20 > Call #4. Target to stabilize the draft charter #8 published from last > weeks meeting. >=20 > August 26/29 updated NMRG drafts: Definition and gap analysis. > Asked for last call on both drafts in NMRG. >=20 > Rene Struik: Need to be more clear what charter goal is: > Autonomic Networking vs. stripping down #competing protocols. >=20 > Rene Struik: seems it is premature to go for adoption of the three > documents in the charter. It is unclear what philosophy is behind the > protocols. > Shen: These protocols are just meant to be starting points. WG is to star= t > working on these problm areas. First adoption calls will be November. > Still time make documents more mature. > Rene Struik: But charter says "adoption of drafts". Fear these will be > point solutions to unclear problems. >=20 > Michael: Goal is to come up with common infrastructure for the problems i= n > scope. Does not mean we have to build new protocols, can also take > existing ones. >=20 > Rene Struik: Wrt to negotiation protocol. I think about IoT applications, > and the current proposal seems badly applicable. Maybe discussing the > philosophy of the protocols should be one of the first goal of the > charter. >=20 > Laurent: Why do we need to list these documents in the charter ? > Michael: leaving them out would make the charter even less clear. > Rene: Usually do not see references to drafts in other charter. Should > there not simply be just topics that should be discussed in the charter > instead ? Dan Romascanu: Agreed with Laurent. > Sheng Jiang: Agreed. >=20 > Laurent: Common infrastructure question. Where/how do we see the role of > autonomic in it. SHould the protocols control atonomic functions, or be > autonomic themselves. Question 2: Internet deployment or design principle= s > to improve future protocols with autonomic philosophy applied to other > groups protocols. >=20 > Michael: Please propose text on the anima working group to improve charte= r > text. Wrt to NMRG drat comments >=20 > Discussion about mentioning of area director responsiblity in charter. > Michael: AD responsible to approve future charter changes. Negotiate with > AD to work in a controlled way through the number of use cases to solve. > REne: maybe this is a note that should be removed after finalization. >=20 > Discussio about how many use cases beyond those solved by the > infrastructure we should ave. Conclusion was one. >=20 > Dimitri: Why do we need to build protocols to solve use-cases. > Value is not based on added value of synchronizing agents better than > today. Other bodies who have tried to tackle this problem have also tried > to build an infrastructure first and then focus on use cases. >=20 > PCE was a very good example. The overall use-case is the proof point tht > helpe shape the 4 year work for those protocols. >=20 > Michael: current tentative use-case is IPv6 prefix management. > Dimitri: fears this is not generic enough ?! Need to wy to show flexiblit= y > of agent model. >=20 > Laurent: Can we show in one single use case example how to reuse the > common infraastructure ? What we should focus on in the demonstation use > case, that we can check over multiple use-cases, we can solve each of the= m > with the common component. >=20 > How to write the charter: Laurent: leave more headroom to the WG to decid= e > what it will deliver. >=20 > Dimitiri: Success in functionality in use-cases. Sucess in design based o= n > reuseability. Both can/should be in charter. But protocols are third step= . >=20 > Sheng: The negotiation protocol wold be an aspect of reuseable design. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Wed Sep 10 09:04:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CB61A8763 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 09:04:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mvMkCSM1OUV6 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 09:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83EE31A8757 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 09:04:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1044; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1410365043; x=1411574643; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A5EQDSfcVQaVKQvcuFWsC4VHpV2muIgEeifgfNIyWuk=; b=iWQONQ2GUvfHCORLBI4Ekp9jJlK9Q+whAAzKlCqXKbX9Oz0dUHk4Kr9j oAlAoxoX6yO2oPvQxaCLAia5CFHueAz4Bol0DPvTrWbZ98t560zGAJGKN pvKKpg04OdB6BO0tS3Dq2UMmmHFjSW/7AuzEqXbHKFSW10UP0ARc6iRKe c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsMEAAJ2EFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABZg2BXyjgMh0oBgSZ4hAQBAQICAQEBNTYKEQshFg8JAwIBAgEVMAYBDAYCAQEFiDkNvmgBF49UhEwBBJVxhwKBX4VijW2DYzsvAQGCTQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,499,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="172516463" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Sep 2014 16:03:59 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8AG3x31014970; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:03:59 GMT Message-ID: <5410766F.3070409@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:03:59 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter , anima@ietf.org References: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/Mns_tvBzqV8XzAo61obAU-Baf3k Subject: Re: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:04:04 -0000 Hi Brian, Very nice article, in-line with Joel's and my view on what ANIMA could realistically produce. Regards, Benoit > Hi, > > After the UCAN BOF I was asked to write an article for the IETF Journal. > This will be a signed article that doesn't claim to represent anyody's > opinion but mine, but I would be very happy to receive comments on the > draft during the next week. I've borrowed material from the BOF poster > and from the draft charter. The draft article is in the wiki: > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/JournalArticle/IETFJ-UCAN.pdf > > If you are not familiar with the journal, see > http://www.internetsociety.org/publications/ietf-journal > > "The articles published in the IETF Journal are not intended to reflect the opinions or > the position of the IETF or the Internet Society." > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > From nobody Wed Sep 10 12:55:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095E71A0196 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:55:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eJ-FpM0Wt9ky for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22c.google.com (mail-pd0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F72A1A0180 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f172.google.com with SMTP id v10so12893428pde.31 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=R2upkY4x6BSMOHnWnbcoz7yaun47krL7VxdtoZhQkXQ=; b=CdtmXzCBvcXa0/G0ipznTqwwaq/Mr1mTI1TH9oTlr+/FEPcGsavm5sBPfsSQN3hfzK O0T1572l7iG70MDdPeoU5CJzdxhWXlCVVVBj+nXgQQfKzeEFGCPxJg/NOp7F7d1VNI2s m5YgTzzvIKOBkmZA2qwz15migoKrgeYMDbSFi+e7erLL2XqzMf0uGLEPHhTs8Qe6S9+e 6AWrOP/nqH48/2ZrkTF9MzbM4BoBnlQh50gos19akZHp02rxRVteIuY4fnxNMhH1OGsz thJXE/TQVnL3lVBU8AHyT8FDyVSPMlagU7FkMnuPUYu1hS5XTtiSGOtRIDv7IljrPQp8 +bfQ== X-Received: by 10.70.128.195 with SMTP id nq3mr7506892pdb.158.1410378901707; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (4.195.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.195.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h12sm15419873pdk.48.2014.09.10.12.54.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5410AC9B.9080204@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 07:55:07 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise References: <54051FC2.6000904@gmail.com> <5410766F.3070409@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5410766F.3070409@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/iivXC6-OCyOZ1RmA6MofWt2xmbg Cc: anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] Draft of an article for the IETF Journal X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 19:55:04 -0000 Thanks. I submitted the draft with a couple of minor fixes. It will be copy-edited before publication. Brian On 11/09/2014 04:03, Benoit Claise wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Very nice article, in-line with Joel's and my view on what ANIMA could > realistically produce. > > Regards, Benoit >> Hi, >> >> After the UCAN BOF I was asked to write an article for the IETF Journal. >> This will be a signed article that doesn't claim to represent anyody's >> opinion but mine, but I would be very happy to receive comments on the >> draft during the next week. I've borrowed material from the BOF poster >> and from the draft charter. The draft article is in the wiki: >> >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/JournalArticle/IETFJ-UCAN.pdf >> >> >> If you are not familiar with the journal, see >> http://www.internetsociety.org/publications/ietf-journal >> >> "The articles published in the IETF Journal are not intended to >> reflect the opinions or >> the position of the IETF or the Internet Society." >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> > > From nobody Wed Sep 10 13:11:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55501A8820 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:11:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kmJMmms76Z0t for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x229.google.com (mail-pd0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74B4A1A87EB for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f169.google.com with SMTP id fp1so6382866pdb.14 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:11:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type; bh=CE0ScqhDPIRYGJkXKe1arUhaW0wArPEvoYHDLTOQhkc=; b=SkBvX0gfxRdZ6fvAmhYpA+a8kNOPIgMDN6Ug+LypnWvOk5t+1ga4uszLsqOeuNqLyC oZ9naFz3SLo7CvwL3hUMJV4rWngjcyJkE5NHEooizuwvRXYJlh9fVwmKoFrRc1BRi3Cs 9dYvnMo3wt+6DpsA5aTGbWJuMi4ukalm2wp/qHJ/isPhsLDkniAdCJ/TlwybMaJ0jI8f 4SRLTlnR+PxHeeSNrzB/9apBLNDVOYATWEgFAhTW8hRSCvKoou/DZvm9ZKiFW9bqSCu1 ZAgvay98E2U/YNYK8IJCqvF7PuWo2qByJ3oEkTpEK7NP1oG0C5nqX2rb73D93EH7Jp5g ReDQ== X-Received: by 10.68.220.164 with SMTP id px4mr40483262pbc.102.1410379872166; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (4.195.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.195.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id sl9sm15270433pbc.46.2014.09.10.13.11.09 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5410B066.3080204@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 08:11:18 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080603010207030608080302" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/d7UnMAWoud2OhQvU4Kf7Q47FiAM Subject: [Anima] v9 charter from Sheng X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 20:11:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080603010207030608080302 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The changes in this were proposed by Sheng Jiang, I just fixed one or two very small point of English. 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No, score=-1.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FRT_PROFILE2=1.981, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axmTrjsg0Vsg for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 14:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68D1E1A9247 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 14:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 1C8DC56691E6A for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:17:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s8ALHuJN013078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:17:57 +0200 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.52]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:17:57 +0200 From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" To: "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed charter v3.txt Thread-Index: Ac/NPK/cUYEv+P4lS4OPhzCtKqdiaQ== Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:17:55 +0000 Message-ID: <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323451E68@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323451E68FR711WXCHMBA07z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/MrMcAnPrXf_8YlM9OjtPFvj6oWA Subject: [Anima] Proposed charter v3.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:18:01 -0000 --_002_84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323451E68FR711WXCHMBA07z_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Here below a third version of the proposed charter for discussion on this l= ist (see also attachment).=20 Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (ANIMA) ---------------------------------------------------------- Charter: o) Motivation (Problem Statement): Current network processes perform independently on different views/partial = information and by different means while interactions among their constitut= ing entities take place at different spatial scales (from local to global).= These processes also operate in the dark as the information to which they = get access to/store is mostly limited to the one translating local protocol= state(s) at current time. Finally, these processes have been designed to r= ealize specific objectives which are often difficult to combine and reconci= le preventing in turn the realization of more complex tasks (and involving = multiple processes). Nowadays, the only mean to compensate these limits is = to involve manual intervention/off-line control. =20 This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network process= es, driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions, aut= onomously translate them into local actions, and adapt them automatically a= ccording to various sources of information including external information a= nd protocol information bases. This paradigm which mainly relies on closed-= loop adaptive control is referred to an autonomic networking. Numerous realizations of this paradigm are nevertheless possible. One of it= s simplest forms has been documented in [NMRG_01] where an information proc= essing agent (IPA) is collocated with the set of protocol engines it drives= . An IPA processes the input selected from external information sources and= protocol information bases in cooperation with other IPAs, to derive state= s (information needed to make a decision now or in the future) and translat= e them into local actions (i.e., local policies).=20 Application of this paradigm comprises use cases ranging from configuration= to protection (security). For instance, considering the case of anomaly/at= tack/intrusion detection and related re-configuration operations i) automat= ion is motivated because automata/programs are more proficient than humans = in realizing systematic and exhaustive tasks such as ACL (re-configuration)= , ii) adaptation is required as new anomalies and attacks are constantly de= tected, and iii) cooperation and autonomy as each identified event requires= both coordination and translation into different local actions to counter = it. o) Main challenges: 1. As use cases are numerous and diverse, the following questions stem: i) = can inter-agent protocol primitives be unified and can agent functionality = be factorized and ii) as anticipating all protocol needs is out of reach, t= hese protocols (more generally AN components) shall be reusable and flexibl= e enough to avoid redesign on per-case basis. 2. Different "cooperation modes" between IPA's can be considered from slave= -master-slave to consensus; hence, the following question stems: would one = cooperation mode fit all needs. 3. Finally, the information source selection and orchestration of actions (= sequencing of instructions to protocol engines) requires to specify appropr= iate pre- and post-processing as these agents are required to be self-suffi= cient.=20 o) Tasks: - Step 0 (before start of WG): Functional areas where the working group agr= ees to contribute (risk mitigation/avoidance, re-configuration/-programming= , etc.) by providing at least one representative use case per functional ar= ea.=20 - Step 1: Evaluation work of AN components (orchestration execution/realiza= tion of decisions, etc.), distributivity needs (exchange of information fro= m external sources, exchange between AN agents, etc.) and cooperation modes= against representative set of use cases Goals: evaluate AN components against representative set of use cases and l= ayout design of lightweight and reusable AN components - Step 2: ACP, a.k.a. common AN infrastructure, specification (in particula= r, cross-function single AN vs. cross-element multi AN) following the desig= n goals of factorization, distribution, and unification required across use= cases; determine if protocol functionality already "available" in other/ex= isting protocol (with/without extensions) or new protocol(s) could be neede= d. Goals: show the utility and feasibility of a common AN infrastructure (put/= articulate AN components together across use cases) - Step 3: Depending on the outcome of step 2, extensions of existing protoc= ols, new protocol design/specification, etc. will be considered. =20 o) Milestones: Nov. 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial draft listing use cases Mar. 2015 - Adoption of uses cases evaluation and analysis draft=20 Nov. 2015 - WG Last Call of Uses cases evaluation and analysis draft=20 Jan. 2016 - Adoption of ACP Functional specification=20 Mar. 2016 - WG Last Call of ACP Functional specification=20 Jun. 2016 - Adoption of protocol component specification(s)=20 Nov. 2016 - WG Last Call of protocol component specification(s)=20 Nov. 2016 - ACP architecture (informational) Nov. 2016 - Recharter or close o) Related IETF WG and IRTF RG: - I2RS WG - Other WG's TBD - NMRG RG o) References: [NMRG_01] M.Behringer et al, Work in Progress, draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-ne= 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X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.329 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, FRT_PROFILE2=1.981, GB_SUMOF=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WLJj5-pIVdPY for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 20:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 114CD1A03E3 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 20:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id B5888DC786596; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 03:38:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s8B3cft1006272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2014 05:38:41 +0200 Received: from [135.244.192.45] (135.239.27.38) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.112) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 05:38:41 +0200 Message-ID: <54111940.7080803@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 05:38:40 +0200 From: Laurent Ciavaglia Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010807080600010807050604" X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.38] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/wXv5hJoG1uoN98GOgHEx02VvyRw Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Dimitri Papadimitriou , Michael Behringer , Sheng Jiang Subject: [Anima] Charter draft-10 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 03:38:47 -0000 --------------010807080600010807050604 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020007000707090206010405" --------------020007000707090206010405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, I have made the exercise to combine for the better (and the worse ;p) the latest draft charters posted (-09-Sheng, -v03-Dimitri) plus some of the comments made on the list on that topic. I sincerely hope this version will help to reach / increase the consensus among us. Some points remains TBD, but I think we can sort these out if we agree on the other parts (which are stabilized / not conflictual). Talk to you soon (or via email). -- Bien cordialement, Best regards, *Laurent Ciavaglia* Advanced Internet Research Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent phone: +33 160 402 636 email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com linkedin: laurentciavaglia address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France * English - detected * English * French * English * French --------------020007000707090206010405 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all,

I have made the exercise to combine for the better (and the worse ;p) the latest draft charters posted (-09-Sheng, -v03-Dimitri) plus some of the comments made on the list on that topic.

I sincerely hope this version will help to reach / increase the consensus among us.

Some points remains TBD, but I think we can sort these out if we agree on the other parts (which are stabilized / not conflictual).

Talk to you soon (or via email).
--

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

 

Laurent Ciavaglia

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

 

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

linkedin: laurentciavaglia

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

--------------020007000707090206010405-- --------------010807080600010807050604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; name="anima-wg-charter-draft-10.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="anima-wg-charter-draft-10.txt" Autonomic Networking for a better Internet Manageability and Adaptability= (ANIMA) WG -------------------------------------------------------------------------= [Context] As more and more devices, with different functions and needs, keep being = added to the Internet, the complexity and cost of managing and operating = communication networks become more and more problematic. Network operators are facing great challenges on a daily basis to ensure = the stability, robustness and performance in an environment where protoco= ls operate independently, by different means and where human/off-line con= trol usually compensates for these "limits". More importantly these protocols have been designed to realize objectives= which are sometimes difficult to combine or reconcile. Again human/off-l= ine control compensates for these "limits".=20 This motivates the introduction of new mechanisms to help synchronizing t= hese processes and coordinate their actions such that the sum of existing= functionality moves beyond the sum of their individual capability. These mechanisms can be grouped under the 4A principle: Automation, Adapt= ation, Autonomy and Abstraction. Automation can be motivated by the fact = that programs are more proficient in realizing systematic and exhaustive = tasks than humans. Adaptation as anomalies and attacks are constantly det= ected, Autonomy as each event has its specifics which translate into diff= erent local actions and Abstraction to enable coordination between hetero= geneous equipment. Such properties characterize Autonomic Networking (AN) which aims at maxi= mizing the gain in operational/control logic while minimizing the infrast= ructure change.=20 The ANIMA WG aims at assessing and documenting the level and process of t= he transformation and homogenization of the Internet infrastructure. [Problem statement] A series of problems stems from the situation described above, touching t= he complete network (functions) lifecycle: e.g. the manual, labour-intens= ive device/network installation, the fragile, script-dependent OAM connec= tivity, the inconsistent/incompatible/silo-ed operations of network servi= ces, the per-device orchestration due to lack of network-wide OAM interfa= ce to services, etc. Most of network functions are today implemented in a distributed way, and= new distributed network functions keep being developed. Currently, every= distributed function defines its own way to identify nodes, to communica= te, discover and negotiate between nodes, and to secure the interactions:= there is no common infrastructure for distributed functions. Consequently, network administrators are required to define and configure= node identities, security schemes, etc, for each distributed mechanism s= eparately. Vendors need to implement parallel mechanisms for similar asks= =2E This leads to inefficiencies. Additionally, central configuration, ma= nagement and optimisation of operational device configurations are expens= ive, tedious, and prone to human error. A simple example is assigning add= ress prefixes to network segments in a large and constantly changing netw= ork. Similarly, repair or bypassing of faults requires human intervention= and causes significant down time. Network processes perform independently on different views/partial inform= ation and by different means while interactions among their constituting = entities take place at different spatial scales (from local to global). T= hese processes also operate in the dark as the information to which they = get access to/store is mostly limited to the one translating local protoc= ol state(s) at current time. Finally, these processes have been designed = to realize specific objectives which are often difficult to combine and r= econcile preventing in turn the realization of more complex tasks (and in= volving multiple processes). Nowadays, the only mean to compensate these = limits is to involve manual intervention/off-line control. =20 This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network proce= sses, driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions,= autonomously translate them into local actions, and adapt them automatic= ally according to various sources of information including external infor= mation and protocol information bases. This paradigm which mainly relies = on closed-loop adaptive control is referred to an autonomic networking. One of its simplest forms has been documented in [NMRG_01] where an infor= mation processing agent (IPA) is collocated with the set of protocol engi= nes it drives. An IPA processes the input selected from external informat= ion sources and protocol information bases in cooperation with other IPAs= , to derive states (information needed to make a decision now or in the f= uture) and translate them into local actions (i.e., local policies).=20 Numerous realizations of this paradigm are nevertheless possible, and the= issue of its integration with existing non-autonomic mechanisms counterp= arts remains open. =20 [Challenges and objectives] Autonomic networking is by definition transverse to the various networkin= g dimensions. Therefore, numerous challenges exist. The main challenges i= dentified are listed as follows: -Which information dissemination model(s) is/are missing preventing self-= configuration/orchestration to operate? -Is integration of autonomic mechanisms going to be "per node and cross-f= unction" or "per-function and cross-nodes" or a combination? How to keep = commonality among different functions (as they are by definition serving = different purposes)? -Do autonomic networking aims at modifying the boundaries of current auto= nomous systems? Or running across routing partitions or not, administrati= ve partitions or not?=20 -Are the inputs to the autonomic process limited to the information proto= cols currently operate with or other sources of information are also in s= cope (example: feeding 'automatically' routing decision process with traf= fic monitoring or forwarding monitoring)? -As use cases are numerous and diverse, can inter-agent protocol primitiv= es be unified and can agent functionality be factorized? And, as anticipa= ting all protocol needs is out of reach, these protocols (more generally = AN components) shall be reusable and flexible enough to avoid redesign on= per-case basis. -Different "cooperation modes" between IPA's can be considered from slave= -master-slave to consensus; hence, would one cooperation mode fit all nee= ds? -How should the information source selection and orchestration of actions= (sequencing of instructions to protocol engines) be designed to enable a= gents to be self-sufficient? The main challenge becomes then to determine if a layout comprising agent= s and discovery/negotiation/interaction among them would enable achieving= the overall objective set by the introduction of autonomic networking co= ncepts. In order to address these challenges, the main goals of the ANIMA WG are:= =20 1) To provide guidelines and recommendations how to design/enhance/extend= current and future IETF protocols with autonomic networking capabilities= , and to provide examples/evaluations of such protocols. 2) To provide a set of mutually consistent protocol specifications showin= g the utility and feasibility of a common, reusable and extensible AN inf= rastructure.=20 These two goals will allow the working group to evaluate the functional a= nd performance gains generated by introducing and generalizing the use of= autonomic networking technologies in the Internet to its manageability a= nd adaptability. [Scope and approach] The ANIMA working group will initially focus on (but is not limited to) t= he enterprise/SOHO, ISP and IoT networks.=20 The ANIMA working group will cover the four conventional areas of self-ma= nagement: configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims t= o be equally applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.= g. installation, commissioning, operating, etc). The initial configuration/bootstrap phase is recognized as a key initial = area of investigation for the working group. A non-exhaustive list of currently identified application domains is prov= ided hereafter. A process for collecting and updating the set of domains = of potential applicability will be initiated at or before the working gro= up creation.=20 In particular, the working group is interested in cross-domain use cases = highlighting limitations of current protocols or practices such as: corre= lation of measurements from different domains, policy consistency verific= ation among different network functions, network and service =93layers=94= chaining aspects, inter-functions/agents coordination model/protocol(s) List of application domains: -Zero-touch secure bootstrap. - Assign IPv6 prefixes / IPv4 pools - Detection of SLA Violations - Microwave Mobile Backhaul - Risk Aware Routing - Path (segment) monitoring: this concerns all monitoring probes configur= ation (sampling rate) and placement inline with the routing decision (and= it would be interesting to confront how autonomics would help automating= /adapting such task with current practices). - Traffic anomaly detection, routing anomalies detection (diagnostic out = of a large set of information) which could help configuring ACL, routing = adjacencies or others. - AQM parameters (re)configuration out of traffic measure.=20 - Shared risk (hidden risk) detection out of routing/topological informat= ion analysis, the output of such process should prevent that protecting r= outing path fail together with their primary path or that an alternate pa= th fails right after its selection due to delay in propagation of routing= information. Approach: Recognizing the extent of the challenges and associated risks, the workin= g group is willing to adopt an original, hybrid approach to address the p= roblem statement by combining: 1) A bottom-up approach. The bottom-up approach will be the mean to trial= and consolidate the (ongoing) design on mature/stable functionality befo= re moving to the next level of complexity. This approach will progress function by function, in an iterative manner,= to simplify one aspect of networking (such as security) at a time, in a = coherent way (cf. 2)), to really create a "unified self-managing" network= =2E The progress will be evaluated against the AN design goals of factorizati= on, distribution, and unification to ensure the alignment with the design= and specifications of the common AN infrastructure /control plane. Some refinement, adaptation or re-engineering might occur during the proc= ess to meet the above requirements. The selection of the "test" use case or functionality will be made in the= first round of adoption of the working group initial drafts. The process= , criteria, metrics, etc. remain to be specified. 2) A top-down approach. In its ultimate form, the very concept of autonom= ic networking is proposing a profound change in the control and operating= model of the Internet protocols. The goal of the top-down approach is to= evaluate and document the utility and feasibility of a common AN infrast= ructure following the design goals of factorization, distribution, and un= ification. The top-down approach can be decomposed as follows: - Step 0 (before start of WG): Functional areas where the working group a= grees to contribute (risk mitigation/avoidance, re-configuration/-program= ming, etc.) by providing at least one representative use case per functio= nal area.=20 - Step 1: Evaluation work of AN components (orchestration execution/reali= zation of decisions, etc.), distributivity needs (exchange of information= from external sources, exchange between AN agents, etc.) and cooperation= modes against representative set of use cases Goals: evaluate AN components against representative set of use cases and= layout design of lightweight and reusable AN components - Step 2: ACP, a.k.a. common AN infrastructure, specification (in particu= lar, cross-function single AN vs. cross-element multi AN) following the d= esign goals of factorization, distribution, and unification required acro= ss use cases; determine if protocol functionality already "available" in = other/existing protocol (with/without extensions) or new protocol(s) coul= d be needed. Goals: show the utility and feasibility of a common AN infrastructure (pu= t/articulate AN components together across use cases) - Step 3: Depending on the outcome of step 2, extensions of existing prot= ocols, new protocol design/specification, etc. will be considered. =20 [Milestones][TBD] Nov. 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts Mar. 2015 - Adoption of uses cases evaluation and analysis draft=20 Nov. 2015 - WG Last Call of uses cases evaluation and analysis draft=20 Jan. 2016 - Adoption of ACP Functional specification draft Mar. 2016 - WG Last Call of ACP Functional specification draft Jun. 2016 - Adoption of protocol component specification(s) drafts Nov. 2016 - WG Last Call of protocol component specification(s) drafts Nov. 2016 - ACP architecture (informational) Nov. 2016 - Recharter or close [Related IETF WG and IRTF RG] - I2RS WG - Homenet WG - SFC WG - Other WG (TBD) - NM RG - NFV RG (TBC) [Background information} Autonomic networking refers to the self-managing characteristics of distr= ibuted network elements, adapting to unpredictable changes while hiding i= ntrinsic complexity from operators and users. It often involves closed-lo= op control. An autonomic function works in a distributed way across vario= us network elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and co-= existence with non-autonomic methods of management. Elements of autonomic= functions already exist today, for example aspects of IGP routing protoc= ols such as OSPF, although their initial configuration process is not aut= onomic. However, all such functions today have their own discovery, trans= port, messaging and security mechanisms as well as non-autonomic manageme= nt interfaces. The general objective of this working group is to enable t= he progressive introduction of autonomic behaviours into operational netw= orks, as well as reusable autonomic network infrastructure. To transform the somewhat abstract Autonomic Networking concept into conc= rete, realisable requirements, the first stage, undertaken in the Network= Management Research Group (NMRG) of the IRTF, was to define terminology = and design goals, and to derive a high-level gap analysis. The definition= s and design goals, as well as a simple architecture model are defined in= [NMRG_01]; the gap analysis for AN is described in [NMRG_02]. The UCAN B= oF at IETF 90 discussed use cases and some existing solutions. All the ab= ove work serves as a baseline for this working group. [References] [NMRG_01] M.Behringer et al, Work in Progress, draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-= network-definitions. [NMRG_02] S. Jiang et al, Work in Progress, draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analys= is. --------------010807080600010807050604-- From nobody Wed Sep 10 21:01:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68041A0389 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:01:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WJqe-dziLqfh for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22f.google.com (mail-pd0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82AA81A0348 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f175.google.com with SMTP id z10so12476654pdj.34 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:01:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gIRq42zcYqNv41MF1sFNgjwPSN8H3WetAhnEkb8kD/k=; b=BS1S/ZnD2dtjMzc1jeJvjknNA66k4ZGMf3nA5Q0hoIJCX127pSPnL4Nl9R5FcVbZA4 isFP+OOnG0E/zH3nbpozqwZsTLOqhdRidzlfB9EQKQlbGVAI5q1CR54mtWveucnn4EDO 8+EHC7p3I4VqOfh/MCKAgUW91YfndJVnqY3QVjfG8w4Vky+kGwMLjUQJZK4Xddu0qxxJ AkhUwoyMHWfN9k5NCHjlMGLFaxXgZfpJ76r5X2/RdKkPS28JKLKOqTBo17Tw6vU7E3fA kifyGDcH9qNXJNOuIP5qBji6mS4AGERxEd5a2P6LtOQiB5w+Ug5sUYqIuPSJHBcl3wyM S0ZQ== X-Received: by 10.68.194.66 with SMTP id hu2mr44337691pbc.19.1410408106194; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (4.195.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.195.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fm15sm12342724pdb.58.2014.09.10.21.01.42 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54111EAF.5090801@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 16:01:51 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurent Ciavaglia References: <54111940.7080803@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <54111940.7080803@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/gxMC-dlJx_ZMV6Y7hb3tOTf8JSI Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Dimitri Papadimitriou , Michael Behringer , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft-10 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 04:01:49 -0000 Hi Laurent, I can't understand the relationship this has to drafts 1-9 since the changes are radical. Can you please produce a list of the issues in v9 that you have addressed and a diff file? To me this looks like a completely new proposal that I can't evaluate in the next couple of hours without help. Incidentally it's important that we include hard newlines at about position 72 in plain text charters. Otherwise the text is unusable when viewed in most browsers. I will try to post such a version of this in the wiki but it won't solve my above problem. Regards Brian On 11/09/2014 15:38, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote: > Dear all, > > I have made the exercise to combine for the better (and the worse ;p) > the latest draft charters posted (-09-Sheng, -v03-Dimitri) plus some of > the comments made on the list on that topic. > > I sincerely hope this version will help to reach / increase the > consensus among us. > > Some points remains TBD, but I think we can sort these out if we agree > on the other parts (which are stabilized / not conflictual). > > Talk to you soon (or via email). > From nobody Wed Sep 10 21:46:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C2A1A010C for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 12:46:03 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Laurent Ciavaglia , anima Thread-Topic: Charter draft-10 Thread-Index: AQHPzXHmPNvhUUPpy06Wcxeltai/eJv7WcyQ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 04:46:03 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF18BD3@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54111940.7080803@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <54111940.7080803@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.145] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF18BD3nkgeml512mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/EI9bkPQdigOx4xPosYYBgpRv8Sk Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Michael Behringer , Dimitri Papadimitriou Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft-10 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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23:10:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pN-TOH6ZCO_7 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E1BF1A0479 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id D8501149554C1; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 06:10:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s8B6AgsI027870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2014 08:10:42 +0200 Received: from [135.244.192.64] (135.239.27.39) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.112) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 08:10:42 +0200 Message-ID: <54113CE0.7080400@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 08:10:40 +0200 From: Laurent Ciavaglia Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter References: <54111940.7080803@alcatel-lucent.com> <54111EAF.5090801@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54111EAF.5090801@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080708040409080803010802" X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.39] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/g7mgiTTGf2UQA520ceuaqHQioLc Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Dimitri Papadimitriou , Michael Behringer , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Charter draft-10 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 06:10:56 -0000 --------------080708040409080803010802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brian, Sorry for the formatting issue. I will send a clean version, along with the issues/diff. Best regards, Laurent. On 11/09/2014 06:01, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi Laurent, > > I can't understand the relationship this has to drafts 1-9 > since the changes are radical. Can you please produce a list of > the issues in v9 that you have addressed and a diff file? > To me this looks like a completely new proposal that I can't > evaluate in the next couple of hours without help. > > Incidentally it's important that we include hard newlines at > about position 72 in plain text charters. Otherwise the text > is unusable when viewed in most browsers. I will try to > post such a version of this in the wiki but it won't solve my > above problem. > > Regards > Brian > > On 11/09/2014 15:38, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I have made the exercise to combine for the better (and the worse ;p) >> the latest draft charters posted (-09-Sheng, -v03-Dimitri) plus some of >> the comments made on the list on that topic. >> >> I sincerely hope this version will help to reach / increase the >> consensus among us. >> >> Some points remains TBD, but I think we can sort these out if we agree >> on the other parts (which are stabilized / not conflictual). >> >> Talk to you soon (or via email). >> -- Bien cordialement, Best regards, *Laurent Ciavaglia* Advanced Internet Research Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent phone: +33 160 402 636 email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com linkedin: laurentciavaglia address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France --------------080708040409080803010802 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Brian,

Sorry for the formatting issue. I will send a clean version, along with the issues/diff.

Best regards, Laurent.
On 11/09/2014 06:01, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Hi Laurent,

I can't understand the relationship this has to drafts 1-9
since the changes are radical. Can you please produce a list of
the issues in v9 that you have addressed and a diff file?
To me this looks like a completely new proposal that I can't
evaluate in the next couple of hours without help.

Incidentally it's important that we include hard newlines at
about position 72 in plain text charters. Otherwise the text
is unusable when viewed in most browsers. I will try to
post such a version of this in the wiki but it won't solve my
above problem.

Regards
   Brian

On 11/09/2014 15:38, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:

Dear all,

I have made the exercise to combine for the better (and the worse ;p)
the latest draft charters posted (-09-Sheng, -v03-Dimitri) plus some of
the comments made on the list on that topic.

I sincerely hope this version will help to reach / increase the
consensus among us.

Some points remains TBD, but I think we can sort these out if we agree
on the other parts (which are stabilized / not conflictual).

Talk to you soon (or via email).



    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


--------------080708040409080803010802--


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Subject: [Anima] ANIMA status
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Dear all,

Sorry for the delay in providing guidance. Back to normal operation mode 
(from vacation), I'll be more responsive from now on.
I've been reviewing the entire email archive, and Joel & I discussed the 
ANIMA status yesterday, based on the charter v8.

A few observations, to start with:
1. Autonomic Networking could be a huge explanatory field.
2. From the BoF, we heard (among other points):
     There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things that 
could be done quickly
3. The IESG has also been realizing that the process of problem 
statement/use cases/requirements/architecture/protocol takes way too 
long for the industry.
4. If a great architecture document to rule all autonomic functions 
would have been easy, it would been done already. In NMRG for example, 
which had plenty of time to think about it! So an architecture as a 
starting point is not the right approach.
5. A WG can always be re-chartered in future phases

These are the reasons why Joel and I asked the BoF chairs to lead a 
charter discussion, focusing on only 2 use cases.
In the mean time, the charter moved in the direction of developing 
reusable infrastructure components for distributed autonomic networking 
functions plus 2 uses case to demonstrate the usage of those 
infrastructure components. Even better.

Regarding the "architecture" (see point 4 above), we like the phrasing of:

    It is essential that these components and solutions fit together as
    an integrated whole.
    For this reason, an overview document will be developed in parallel
    with the individual
    specifications.


Coming back to the number of use cases and the sentence "A second simple 
example may be added by agreement with the Area Director", we believe 
that the second use case is in the charter already, but somehow hidden. 
We read that "Autonomic Control Plane" and/or "bootstrap a trust 
infrastructure" (not sure about the second one though) are at the same 
time reusable component and a use case. Can you please describe your use 
case in a bullet point, next to "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix 
management within a network"
Also, wrt "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a 
network", can you please describe the use case some more. This is a 
little bit too high level.

Looking at the charter v9 now.
Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I actually 
believe that pointing to existing work is a plus, to see some 
description behind a single bullet point. Let's imagine that you read 
"Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane" for 
the first time (this is what will happen when/if this charter is 
proposed for last-call), I'm sure that would lead to many questions or 
potential wrong assumptions.
Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply that we ask 
you to adopt those document as WG items now.

One final edit. From the email discussion, I read that one of the AN 
goal is OPEX reduction. That's maybe an obvious but a key message to 
mention in the charter. In the problem statement paragraph, this could 
introduce in the last sentence.

Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)


--------------010207060501070000080206
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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    Dear all,

    

    Sorry for the delay in providing guidance. Back to normal operation
    mode (from vacation), I'll be more responsive from now on.

    I've been reviewing the entire email archive, and Joel & I
    discussed the ANIMA status yesterday, based on the charter v8.

    

    A few observations, to start with:

    1. Autonomic Networking could be a huge explanatory field. 

    2. From the BoF, we heard (among other points): 

          There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things that
      could be done quickly

      3. The IESG has also been realizing that the process of problem
      statement/use cases/requirements/architecture/protocol takes way
      too long for the industry.

      4. If a great
        architecture document to rule all autonomic functions would have
        been easy, it would been done already. In NMRG for example,
        which had plenty of time to think about it! So an architecture
        as a starting point is not the right approach.

        5. A WG can always be re-chartered in future phases

      

      These are the reasons why Joel and I asked the BoF chairs to lead
      a charter discussion, focusing on only 2 use cases.

      In the mean time, the charter moved in the direction of developing
    reusable infrastructure components for
    distributed autonomic networking functions plus 2 uses case to demonstrate the usage of those
        infrastructure components. Even better. 

      

      Regarding the "architecture" (see point 4 above), we like the
      phrasing of:

    
    
It is essential that these components
        and solutions fit together as an integrated whole.

      For this reason, an overview document will be
        developed in parallel with the individual

      specifications.

      

    

      Coming back to the number of use cases and
      the sentence "A second simple example may be added by agreement
      with the Area Director", we believe that the second use case is in
      the charter already, but somehow hidden. We read that "Autonomic
      Control Plane" and/or "bootstrap a trust infrastructure" (not sure
      about the second one though) are at the same time reusable
      component and a use case. Can you please describe your use case in
      a bullet point, next to "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix
      management within a network"

      Also, wrt "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management
      within a network", can you please describe the use case some more.
      This is a little bit too high level.

      

      Looking at the charter v9 now.

      Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I
      actually believe that pointing to existing work is a plus, to see
      some description behind a single bullet point. Let's imagine that
      you read "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic
      Control Plane" for the first time (this is what will happen
      when/if this charter is proposed for last-call), I'm sure that
      would lead to many questions or potential wrong assumptions.

      Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply that
      we ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.

    

      One final edit. From the email discussion, I read that one of the
      AN goal is OPEX reduction. That's maybe an obvious but a key
      message to mention in the charter. In the problem statement
      paragraph, this could introduce in the last sentence.

    

      Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)

      

    
  


--------------010207060501070000080206--


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Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Dear all,

Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is, let's 
say it, a pain.

We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
Please bookmark https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/

Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9 from 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter , which I 
consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note that 
only formating changes were inserted between versions 
charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.

Let's continue the chartering discussion.
In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter text 
in the tool.

Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:=20
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff09=
27d7a93=20

Michael

--



Notes from the ANIMA Call
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

Attendees
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sh=
eng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

Notes
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.=20

List of items where we have not consensus:
1) Methodology of this working group
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.=20

2) Selection of use cases
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use ca=
ses?=20

3) Common infrastructure components
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use case=
s.=20

Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?=20
Yes. (no objection)=20

Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven =
approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.=20
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first und=
erstand communication layer.=20
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different mode=
s. Negotiation for example.=20
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there a=
re many potential solutions.=20
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.=20
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear wh=
ich the requirements are for such a protocol.=20
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define prec=
ise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.=20
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. =
If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end=
 up in an open protocol.=20
Brian: Completely agree.=20
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEF=
ORE the charter or once we are chartered?=20
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, =
and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.=20
Sheng: This will take too long.=20
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as =
needed?=20
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That =
needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.=20
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. T=
here should be a general requirements doc.=20
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.=20
Dan: Need an intermediate state.=20
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture"=
. NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had a=
n autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.=20
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?=20
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.=20
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the us=
e cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define=
 boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for exa=
mple bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration),=
 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.=20
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't =
know them yet.=20
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.=20
Laurent: The self-* features are in.=20
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.=20

=09


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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Michael:=20

At the end of the call, I also asked if it would be possible for Laurent to=
 continue the exercise he has started (and posted before the call).


Thanks,
-dimitri.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringe=
r
> (mbehring)
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 3:31 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>=20
> Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff=
092
> 7d7a93
>=20
> Michael
>=20
> --
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Notes from the ANIMA Call
> 11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>=20
> Attendees
> Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia,
> Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>=20
> Notes
> Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>=20
> List of items where we have not consensus:
> 1) Methodology of this working group
> Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>=20
> 2) Selection of use cases
> At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use
> cases?
>=20
> 3) Common infrastructure components
> Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use
> cases.
>=20
> Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
> Yes. (no objection)
>=20
> Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case drive=
n
> approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
> Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first
> understand communication layer.
> Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different
> modes. Negotiation for example.
> Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there
> are many potential solutions.
> Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
> Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear
> which the requirements are for such a protocol.
> Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define
> precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
> Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol=
.
> If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might
> end up in an open protocol.
> Brian: Completely agree.
> Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements
> BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
> Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities=
,
> and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
> Sheng: This will take too long.
> Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand a=
s
> needed?
> Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. Tha=
t
> needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
> Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements.
> There should be a general requirements doc.
> Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
> Dan: Need an intermediate state.
> Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against
> architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key.
> Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
> Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
> Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
> Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the
> use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to
> define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area,
> for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-
> configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for
> example.
> Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don'=
t
> know them yet.
> Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
> Laurent: The self-* features are in.
> Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

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From: "CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT)" 
To: anima 
CC: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Behringer
	, Sheng Jiang , "Toerless Eckert
 (eckert)" , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)"
	
Subject: Charter draft-10
Thread-Topic: Charter draft-10
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Dear all,

I have made the exercise to combine for the better (and the worse ;p) the l=
atest draft charters posted (-09-Sheng, -v03-Dimitri) plus some of the comm=
ents made on the list on that topic.

I sincerely hope this version will help to reach / increase the consensus a=
mong us.

Some points remains TBD, but I think we can sort these out if we agree on t=
he other parts (which are stabilized / not conflictual).

Talk to you soon (or via email).

--


Bien cordialement, Best regards,



Laurent Ciavaglia

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent



phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

linkedin: laurentciavaglia

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

*       English - detected
*       English
*       French

*       English
*       French




--_000_541119407080803alcatellucentcom_
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Content-ID: <073C5B6E72507B4FA64B29B88B06AA13@exchange.lucent.com>
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Dear all,



I have made the exercise to combine for the better (and the worse ;p) the l=
atest draft charters posted (-09-Sheng, -v03-Dimitri) plus some of the comm=
ents made on the list on that topic.



I sincerely hope this version will help to reach / increase the consensus a=
mong us.



Some points remains TBD, but I think we can sort these out if we agree on t=
he other parts (which are stabilized / not conflictual).



Talk to you soon (or via email).



-- 







Bien cordialement, Best regard=
s,



 



Laurent Ciavaglia=




Advanced Intern=
et Research



Bell Labs | Alc=
atel Lucent



 


phone: +33 160 402&nb=
sp;636




email:
laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com



linkedin:
laurentciavaglia



address: Route de Villejust | =
91620 Nozay | France














    

  • English - de=
tected 
  • English 
  • French 










    

  • English 
  • French 



















    
  


--------------050609010004010903050200--


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Just one comment as I had left the call by then:

> Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

Let's not rewrite history. The diffserv architecture document (RFC 2475) was
produced in parallel with the protocol document (RFC 2474) not in advance.
Actually the starting point for diffserv was the "two-bit" draft which was
a preliminary protocol design in 1997, later published for the record as
RFC 2638.

That's the model we're proposing to repeat in the v9 charter:
"It is essential that these components and solutions fit together as an integrated whole.
For this reason, an overview document will be developed in parallel with the individual
specifications."
(That reflects my prejudice that "architecture" is a big word that the
IETF does well to avoid, whereas "overview" is more modest. But it's
really the same thing.)

I don't know the history of IntServ in similar detail, but since that
effort failed, and NSIS seems likely to fail too, they are not models
that we should follow, are they?

    Brian


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Brian E Carpenter , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpente=
r
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 10:26 PM
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>=20
> Just one comment as I had left the call by then:
>=20
> > Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against
> architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key.
> Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.

I referred to IntServ (RFC 1633) which documented a model and its component=
s to derive signaling such as RSVP (RFC 2205) --see also mailing list


--> I didn't refer to DiffServ (this should be corrected in the minutes) ne=
ither aimed at rewriting history.=20

> Let's not rewrite history. The diffserv architecture document (RFC 2475)
> was produced in parallel with the protocol document (RFC 2474) not in
> advance.
> Actually the starting point for diffserv was the "two-bit" draft which wa=
s
> a preliminary protocol design in 1997, later published for the record as
> RFC 2638.
>=20
> That's the model we're proposing to repeat in the v9 charter:
> "It is essential that these components and solutions fit together as an
> integrated whole.

The issue is the term "solutions": one would expect a single/unified soluti=
on, target which can't be reconciled with the reduced set of cases consider=
ed so far. By bundling the set of cases in the charter and mandating protoc=
ols shall only be applicable to them, one de-facto locks this group (from b=
oth ends) following the reasoning that the necessary condition (specific so=
lution/protocol) is a sufficient condition -- whereas it is provably insuff=
icient.

> For this reason, an overview document will be developed in parallel with
> the individual specifications."
> (That reflects my prejudice that "architecture" is a big word that the
> IETF does well to avoid, whereas "overview" is more modest. But it's
> really the same thing.)
>=20
> I don't know the history of IntServ in similar detail, but since that
> effort failed, and NSIS seems likely to fail too, they are not models tha=
t
> we should follow, are they?

I didn't make such statement. I stated that as long as RSVP protocol had be=
en designed alongside with a model IntServ/RFC 1633 the protocol specificat=
ion remained well articulated; on the other hand, efforts to provide next s=
teps without identifying objective boundaries lead unfortunately to an open=
 ended protocol effort though it had shown that translating functionality i=
nto protocols has no unique 1:1 match; hence, articulation of the anima tas=
ks would benefit from exploiting what has been learned out of these experie=
nces.

>     Brian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 11:30:38 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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On 12/09/2014 10:12, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter
>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 10:26 PM
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>
>> Just one comment as I had left the call by then:
>>
>>> Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against
>> architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key.
>> Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
> 
> I referred to IntServ (RFC 1633) which documented a model and its components to derive signaling such as RSVP (RFC 2205) --see also mailing list
> 
> 
> --> I didn't refer to DiffServ (this should be corrected in the minutes) neither aimed at rewriting history. 
> 
>> Let's not rewrite history. The diffserv architecture document (RFC 2475)
>> was produced in parallel with the protocol document (RFC 2474) not in
>> advance.
>> Actually the starting point for diffserv was the "two-bit" draft which was
>> a preliminary protocol design in 1997, later published for the record as
>> RFC 2638.
>>
>> That's the model we're proposing to repeat in the v9 charter:
>> "It is essential that these components and solutions fit together as an
>> integrated whole.
> 
> The issue is the term "solutions": one would expect a single/unified solution, target which can't be reconciled with the reduced set of cases considered so far. By bundling the set of cases in the charter and mandating protocols shall only be applicable to them, one de-facto locks this group (from both ends) following the reasoning that the necessary condition (specific solution/protocol) is a sufficient condition -- whereas it is provably insufficient.
> 
>> For this reason, an overview document will be developed in parallel with
>> the individual specifications."
>> (That reflects my prejudice that "architecture" is a big word that the
>> IETF does well to avoid, whereas "overview" is more modest. But it's
>> really the same thing.)
>>
>> I don't know the history of IntServ in similar detail, but since that
>> effort failed, and NSIS seems likely to fail too, they are not models that
>> we should follow, are they?
> 
> I didn't make such statement. I stated that as long as RSVP protocol had been designed alongside with a model IntServ/RFC 1633 the protocol specification remained well articulated; on the other hand, efforts to provide next steps without identifying objective boundaries lead unfortunately to an open ended protocol effort though it had shown that translating functionality into protocols has no unique 1:1 match; hence, articulation of the anima tasks would benefit from exploiting what has been learned out of these experiences.

OK. I understand that you didn't mention diffserv, but in my view
(prejudiced, since I was WG co-chair), the diffserv case worked
out quite well. The WG -00 drafts for protocol and architecture
were posted at the same time (May 1998). Ever since RFC 2474/5,
several of us have carefully reviewed every proposal for a new
diffserv PHB for coherence with the architecture. I am not really
disagreeing with you and I think this approach is what the v9
charter leads to.

I also agree that the proposed discovery/negotiation protocol
cannot be selected or designed without a context. Actually,
that's exactly why draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps exists.

    Brian


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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From nobody Fri Sep 12 01:48:49 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Benoit:

> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter text in
> the tool.

The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as stable are=
 diverting from the real questions such piece of text should provide answer=
s to, in particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the th=
ing right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the end of the =
first charter term ?"

Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a reusable pi=
ece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial. Indeed, =
proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known loophole protocol -=
> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and never see any wide adoption b=
ecause potential users would need the next use case/feature not covered by =
the protocol, is neither going to help the "industry" nor the IETF.

An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter contributio=
ns in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a reusable piece of wor=
k is currently ongoing (cf. ). You would be well advised in considering it.

Thanks,
-dimitri.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is, let's say
> it, a pain.
>=20
> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> Please bookmark https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>=20
> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9 from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter , which I
> consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note that
> only formating changes were inserted between versions
> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
>=20
> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter text in
> the tool.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Sep 12 05:53:34 2014
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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 14:53:08 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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Dear Michael,

Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)

Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited to 
coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, 
avoidoscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is what 
we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality boundaries) before 
specifying the protocol(s).

2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop features 
are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. these 
should be the minimal basis for the group scope.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.


On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93
>
> Michael
>
> --
>
>
>
> Notes from the ANIMA Call
> 11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>
> Attendees
> Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>
> Notes
> Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>
> List of items where we have not consensus:
> 1) Methodology of this working group
> Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>
> 2) Selection of use cases
> At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>
> 3) Common infrastructure components
> Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>
> Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
> Yes. (no objection)
>
> Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
> Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
> Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
> Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
> Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
> Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
> Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
> Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
> Brian: Completely agree.
> Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
> Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
> Sheng: This will take too long.
> Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
> Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
> Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
> Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
> Dan: Need an intermediate state.
> Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
> Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
> Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
> Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
> Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
> Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
> Laurent: The self-* features are in.
> Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>
> 	
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


--------------020103000508060907000301
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    Dear Michael,

      

      Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call
      ;)

      

      Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)

      1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

          --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not
      suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve
      conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means
      should be considered. this is what we need to define (i.e. the
      negotiation functionality boundaries) before specifying the
      protocol(s).

       

      2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

          --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop
      features are in: configuration, protection, healing and
      optimization. these should be the minimal basis for the group
      scope.

      

      Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

      

      

    
    
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer
      (mbehring) wrote:

    

    

      
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

Michael

--



Notes from the ANIMA Call
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

Attendees
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

Notes
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

List of items where we have not consensus:
1) Methodology of this working group
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

2) Selection of use cases
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

3) Common infrastructure components
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 
Yes. (no objection) 

Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 
Brian: Completely agree. 
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 
Sheng: This will take too long. 
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

	

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


--------------020103000508060907000301--


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Laurent,
Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the discussion=
 AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on everybody to provide =
such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think we need to re-do those notes=
, since the notes AND your (and Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail th=
read in the archive. Do you agree?
Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and clearer w=
hen we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this an=
d nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this". (And we=
 say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you raise MUST be raise=
d, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss the solutions.
Michael

From: Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today

Dear Michael,

Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)

Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
    --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited to coor=
dinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, avoid oscill=
ations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is what we need to de=
fine (i.e. the negotiation functionality boundaries) before specifying the =
protocol(s).

2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
    --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop features are =
in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. these should be th=
e minimal basis for the group scope.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:

https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff09=
27d7a93



Michael



--







Notes from the ANIMA Call

11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT



Attendees

Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sh=
eng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)



Notes

Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.



List of items where we have not consensus:

1) Methodology of this working group

Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.



2) Selection of use cases

At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use ca=
ses?



3) Common infrastructure components

Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use case=
s.



Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?

Yes. (no objection)



Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven =
approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.

Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first und=
erstand communication layer.

Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different mode=
s. Negotiation for example.

Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there a=
re many potential solutions.

Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.

Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear wh=
ich the requirements are for such a protocol.

Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define prec=
ise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.

Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. =
If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end=
 up in an open protocol.

Brian: Completely agree.

Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEF=
ORE the charter or once we are chartered?

Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, =
and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.

Sheng: This will take too long.

Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as =
needed?

Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That =
needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.

Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. T=
here should be a general requirements doc.

Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.

Dan: Need an intermediate state.

Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture"=
. NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had a=
n autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.

Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?

Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.

Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the us=
e cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define=
 boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for exa=
mple bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration),=
 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.

Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't =
know them yet.

Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.

Laurent: The self-* features are in.

Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.







_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



--
Bien cordialement, Best regards,

Laurent Ciavaglia
Advanced Internet Research
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
linkedin: laurentciavaglia
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C3C448xmbrcdx14ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











=
Laurent,



=
Thanks for =
the corrections. It’s difficult to participate in the discussion AND =
try to catch everything correctly, so I count on
 everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don’t think =
we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and Dimitri’s=
) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do you agree?



=
Personally,=
 I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and clearer when we̵=
7;re actually arguing about a protocol or method.



=
I think the=
 charter has been sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and not=
hing else”, whereas the intent is “our initial focus
 is this”. (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the p=
oints you raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll raise them when we =
discuss the solutions.



=
Michael


=
 =










From:
 Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com] 

Sent: 12 September 2014 14:5=
3

To: Michael Behringer (mbehr=
ing); anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes f=
rom the ANIMA Call Today






=
 <=
/font>


Dear Michael,



Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)



Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)

1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

    --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is =
not suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve confl=
icts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is =
what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality
 boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).

 

2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

    --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-=
chop features are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. =
these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.



Thanks, best regards, Laurent.








On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) =
wrote:






Below are the notes I took, and the rec=
ording is here: 


https://cisco.webex=
.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 


 


Michael


 


--


 


 


 


Notes from the ANIMA Call


11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT<=
/font>


 


Attendees

Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascan=
u, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (no=
tes)


 


Notes


Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Prese=
nted his current view on things. 


 


List of items where we have not consens=
us:


1) Methodology of this working group


Two different approaches at the moment,=
 bottom up and top down. 


 


2) Selection of use cases


At which step do we plan the working gr=
oup? What should be the first use cases? 


 


3) Common infrastructure components


Sheng: We should first work on those co=
mponents, BEFORE working on use cases. 


 


Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure =
versus autonomic service agents? 


Yes. (no objection) <=
/font>


 


Dimitri: We have service agents that ex=
change information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driv=
en approach. 


Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in pr=
oposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 


Dimitri: Communication is part of curre=
nt charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. =



Laurent: The current negotiation propos=
al is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 


Michael: The charter doesn't say the cu=
rrent draft is the chosen one. 


Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditio=
ns are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a pro=
tocol. 


Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job =
of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a propos=
ed protocol. 


Dimitri: Differnt means to translate ne=
gotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we ma=
y go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 


Brian: Completely agree. 


Michael: Problem statement seems to be:=
 Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartere=
d? 


Laurent: We need to be explicit that th=
e charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group t=
o translate this into protocols. 


Sheng: This will take too long. 


Michael: Can we start with the simple c=
ommunication methods, and expand as needed? 


Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based,=
 gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the wo=
rk. The charter must allow this. 


Dan: Can include in charter about infra=
structure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements d=
oc. 


Michael: ADs didn't want to start with =
a lengthy requirements process. 


Dan: Need an intermediate state. <=
/o:p>


Dimitri: Charter needs to include "=
;validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starti=
ng point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. L=
ike for intserv/diffserv. 


Michael: Can we not start with a simple=
 unicast negotiation method? 


Laurent: Need to worry about oscillatio=
n on a higher level. 


Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to d=
erive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Nee=
d a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We shou=
ld select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1)=
 Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on sel=
f-healing for example. 


Sheng: So far no reporting area. There =
are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 


Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* featur=
es. 


Laurent: The self-* features are in. 


Michael: Need to document the different=
 viewpoints. 


 


 


 


_______________________________________=
________


Anima mailing list


Anima=
@ietf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=



 




=
 <=
/font>





-- 




Bien cordialement, Best regards,



 



Laurent Ciavaglia



Advanced Internet Research


Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent


 



phone: +33 160 402 636




email:
laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lu=
cent.com



linkedin:
laurentciavaglia



address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France










--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C3C448xmbrcdx14ciscoc_--


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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 15:54:01 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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Michael,

please see inline.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

On 12/09/2014 15:05, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>
> Laurent,
>
> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the 
> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on 
> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think we 
> need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and Dimitri's) 
> comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do you agree?
>
yes, of course.

> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and 
> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>
As discussed yesterday on the call: first define the boundaries of the 
functionality, then specify the protocols.
It is the understanding of the boundaries of the functionality as a 
reusable component to solve several cases that will create the value 
(/genericity) in the protocols.
Also there is no automatic 1:1 mapping of the set of functionality to 
the set of protocols.

> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do 
> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this".
>
yes, probably.
what is not helping to solve this impression ("this and nothing else"), is
     -that the charter v1-9 are explicitly naming 2 cases, leaving 
no/few room to others.
     -that the focus is on "protocolsfirst and protocolsonly" instead of 
functionality and protocols (charter v10 is proposing a fast track to 
"test" 1 functionality / protocol(s) in parallel to the progress of the 
other WG activities).

> (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you raise 
> MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss the 
> solutions.
>
Agreed. One of my concerns is that the initial scope in open enough to 
attract a large base of contributions/contributors. Said in other words: 
will potential contributors find areas (e.g. config., healing, protect., 
optim.) where their problems/interests/competencies can be 
addressed/applied.


> Michael
>
> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>
> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited to 
> coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, 
> avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is 
> what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality boundaries) 
> before specifying the protocol(s).
>
> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop features 
> are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. these 
> should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>
> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>
> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>
>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>
>     https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93  
>
>       
>
>     Michael
>
>       
>
>     --
>
>       
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>
>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>
>       
>
>     Attendees
>
>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>
>       
>
>     Notes
>
>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>
>       
>
>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>
>     1) Methodology of this working group
>
>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>
>       
>
>     2) Selection of use cases
>
>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>
>       
>
>     3) Common infrastructure components
>
>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>
>       
>
>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
>
>     Yes. (no objection)
>
>       
>
>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>
>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
>
>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
>
>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>
>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
>
>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>
>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>
>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>
>     Brian: Completely agree.
>
>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>
>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
>
>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>
>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
>
>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
>
>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>
>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
>
>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>
>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
>
>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>
>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>
>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>
>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
>
>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>
>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>
>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>
>       
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Anima mailing list
>
>     Anima@ietf.org  
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>       
>
> -- 
>
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>
> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>
> Advanced Internet Research
>
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>
> phone: +33 160 402 636
>
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
> 
>
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


--------------050708070506030204020501
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


  
    
  
  
    Michael,

      

      please see inline. 

      

      Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

      

    
    
On 12/09/2014 15:05, Michael Behringer
      (mbehring) wrote:

    

    

      
      
      
      

        
Laurent,
              

        
Thanks
              for the corrections. It’s difficult to participate in the
              discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I
              count on everybody to provide such corrections if needed.
              BTW, I don’t think we need to re-do those notes, since the
              notes AND your (and Dimitri’s) comments are in the same
              mail thread in the archive. Do you agree?

      

    

    yes, of course.

      

    
    

      

        
Personally,
              I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and
              clearer when we’re actually arguing about a protocol or
              method.
            

      

    

    As discussed yesterday on the call: first
      define the boundaries of the functionality, then specify the
      protocols.

      It is the understanding of the boundaries of the functionality as
      a reusable component to solve several cases that will create the
      value (/genericity) in the protocols.

      Also there is no automatic 1:1 mapping of the set of functionality
      to the set of protocols.

      

    
    

      

        

        
I
              think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as “we
              will do this and nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our
              initial focus is this”.

      

    

    yes, probably.

      what is not helping to solve this impression ("this and nothing
      else"), is 

          -that the charter v1-9 are explicitly naming 2 cases, leaving
      no/few room to others.

          -that the focus is on "protocols first and protocols only" instead
      of functionality and protocols (charter v10 is proposing a fast
      track to "test" 1 functionality / protocol(s) in parallel to the
      progress of the other WG activities).

      

    
    

      

        

              (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points
              you raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll raise them
              when we discuss the solutions.
            

      

    

     Agreed. One of my concerns is that the
      initial scope in open enough to attract a large base of
      contributions/contributors. Said in other words: will potential
      contributors find areas (e.g. config., healing, protect., optim.)
      where their problems/interests/competencies can be
      addressed/applied.

      

      

    
    

      

        

        
Michael

        
 

        

          

            

              

                From: Laurent Ciavaglia
                    [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com] 

                    Sent:
                    12 September 2014 14:53

                    To:
                    Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org

                    Subject:
                    Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today

            

          

          
 

          
Dear Michael,

                

                Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving
                this call ;)

                

                Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of
                the call)

                1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher
                level. 

                    --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication
                is not suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions
                (how to resolve conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.).
                other means should be considered. this is what we need
                to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality
                boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).

                 

                2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                    --> as written in charter -10, the conventional
                self-chop features are in: configuration, protection,
                healing and optimization. these should be the minimal
                basis for the group scope.

                

                Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

                

              

          

            
On
                  11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

          

          

            
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 

            
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

            
 

            
Michael

            
 

            
--

            
 

            
 

            
 

            
Notes from the ANIMA Call

            
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

            
 

            
Attendees

            
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

            
 

            
Notes

            
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

            
 

            
List of items where we have not consensus:

            
1) Methodology of this working group

            
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

            
 

            
2) Selection of use cases

            
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

            
 

            
3) Common infrastructure components

            
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

            
 

            
Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 

            
Yes. (no objection) 

            
 

            
Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 

            
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

            
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

            
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

            
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 

            
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 

            
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 

            
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 

            
Brian: Completely agree. 

            
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 

            
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 

            
Sheng: This will take too long. 

            
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 

            
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 

            
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 

            
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 

            
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 

            
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

            
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 

            
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

            
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 

            
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 

            
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 

            
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

            
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

            
 

            
 

            
 

            
_______________________________________________

            
Anima mailing list

            
Anima@ietf.org

            
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

            
 

          

          
 

          

            

              -- 
              

            

              Bien
                  cordialement, Best regards,

            

               

            

              Laurent
                    Ciavaglia

            

              Advanced
                  Internet Research

            

              Bell Labs |
                  Alcatel Lucent

            

               

            

              phone: +33 160
                  402 636
                

            

              email:
                  laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

            

              linkedin:
                  laurentciavaglia

            

              address: Route
                  de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

          

        

      

    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


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Michael,
If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this and not=
hing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this"  can you expl=
ain me how to deal with the following situation. I am interested in the fol=
lowing part
[specific goals]
o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic function=
s
I have tried to explain during the call that underneath "negotiation" sits =
the problem by which a collection of interacting agents aim at reaching agr=
eement in order to realize an "intent" is a key aspect of the work. Renumbe=
ring/address management being outside my scope/interest, how practically th=
e charter does allow me to work in this item when it states:
The working group will initially consider a simple example as a test case f=
or further work.
o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network
There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter aims def=
ining such component but for instance behind the term negotiation we unders=
tand different things Section 2.3 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-co=
nfig-negotiation-ps-03 is about base information exchange (more precisely a=
 base description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation =
object. Thus missing i) the actual "negotiation protocols are the set of ru=
les that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible types of part=
icipants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third parties), the negotiatio=
n states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation closed), the events that cause =
state transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and the valid acti=
ons of the participants in particular states (e.g., which can be sent by wh=
om, to whom and at when)." and ii) the agents' reasoning models which provi=
de "the decision making apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve =
their objectives. The sophistication of the model is determined by the prot=
ocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the range of operation=
s that can be performed on it"
Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be viewed=
 as a "distributed search through a space of potential agreements about som=
e joint problem [...] To improve the efficiency of the negotiation process,=
 the recipient needs to be able to provide more useful feedback on the prop=
osals it receives than just whether or not it agrees to them. This feedback=
 can take the form of a critique (comments on which parts of the proposal t=
he agent likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative proposal =
generated in response to a proposal). From such feedback, the proposer shou=
ld be able to generate a proposal which is more likely to lead to an agreem=
ent (if it chooses to do so).

[Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On argumentatio=
n-based negotiation, Proceedings of the International Workshop on Multi-Age=
nt Systems, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

[Jen2001] N.R.Jennings et al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Chall=
enges; Group Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 1=
99-215
Please also take a look at the following paper on Negotiation in Multi-Agen=
t Systems from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings, Ch=
ris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation in multi-agent systems=
. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September 1999), pp.285-289.

Thanks,
-dimitri.

From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringer =
(mbehring)
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today

Laurent,
Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the discussion=
 AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on everybody to provide =
such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think we need to re-do those notes=
, since the notes AND your (and Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail th=
read in the archive. Do you agree?
Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and clearer w=
hen we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this an=
d nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this". (And we=
 say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you raise MUST be raise=
d, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss the solutions.
Michael

From: Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today

Dear Michael,

Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)

Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
    --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited to coor=
dinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, avoid oscill=
ations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is what we need to de=
fine (i.e. the negotiation functionality boundaries) before specifying the =
protocol(s).

2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
    --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop features are =
in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. these should be th=
e minimal basis for the group scope.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:

https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff09=
27d7a93



Michael



--







Notes from the ANIMA Call

11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT



Attendees

Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sh=
eng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)



Notes

Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.



List of items where we have not consensus:

1) Methodology of this working group

Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.



2) Selection of use cases

At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use ca=
ses?



3) Common infrastructure components

Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use case=
s.



Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?

Yes. (no objection)



Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven =
approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.

Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first und=
erstand communication layer.

Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different mode=
s. Negotiation for example.

Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there a=
re many potential solutions.

Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.

Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear wh=
ich the requirements are for such a protocol.

Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define prec=
ise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.

Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. =
If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end=
 up in an open protocol.

Brian: Completely agree.

Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEF=
ORE the charter or once we are chartered?

Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, =
and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.

Sheng: This will take too long.

Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as =
needed?

Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That =
needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.

Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. T=
here should be a general requirements doc.

Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.

Dan: Need an intermediate state.

Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture"=
. NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had a=
n autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.

Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?

Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.

Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the us=
e cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define=
 boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for exa=
mple bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration),=
 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.

Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't =
know them yet.

Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.

Laurent: The self-* features are in.

Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.







_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



--
Bien cordialement, Best regards,

Laurent Ciavaglia
Advanced Internet Research
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
linkedin: laurentciavaglia
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

--_000_84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234536B1FR711WXCHMBA07z_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Michae=
l,   


If
the charter has been so=
metimes misunderstood as “we will do this and nothing else”, wh=
ereas the intent is “our initial focus is this”
 c=
an you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I
am interested in the f=
ollowing part


[sp=
ecific goals]


o D=
efinition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic functions


I have=
 tried to explain during the call that underneath “negotiation”=
 sits the problem
 by which a collection of interacting=
 agents aim at reaching agree=
ment in order to realize an “intent” is a key aspect of the wor=
k.
Renumbering/add=
ress management being outside my scope/interest, how
 practically the charter does allow me to work in this item when it states:=



The=
 working group will initially consider a simple example as a test case for =
further work.



o D=
efinition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network


There =
is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter aims defining =
such component but for instance behind the term negotiation
 we understand different things Section 2.3 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is abou=
t base information exchange (more precisely a base description of what [Jen=
1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation object. Thus missing i) the ac=
tual “negotiation protocols
 are the set of rules that govern the interaction. This covers, the permiss=
ible types of participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third partie=
s), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation closed), the =
events that cause state transitions
 (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and the valid actions of the partic=
ipants in particular states (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and a=
t when).” and ii) the
agents’ reasoning models which provide “the decis=
ion making apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve their objecti=
ves. The sophistication of the model is determined by the protocol used, th=
e nature of the negotiation object, and the
 range of operations that can be performed on it”


Negotiation in the present context following [=
Jen1998] can indeed be viewed as a “distributed search through a spac=
e of potential agreements about some joint problem […] To improve
 the efficiency of the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be able =
to provide more useful feedback on the proposals it receives than just whet=
her or not it agrees to them. This feedback can take the form of a critique=
 (comments on which parts of the
 proposal the agent likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternativ=
e proposal generated in response to a proposal). From such feedback, the pr=
oposer should be able to generate a proposal which is more likely to lead t=
o an agreement (if it chooses to
 do so).



 



[Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, =
and C.Sierra. On argumentation-based negotiation,
Proceedings of the International Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems, pa=
ges 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.



 



[Jen2001]
N.R.Jennings et al., Automated
 Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group Decision and =
Negotiation,
March 2001,=
 Volume 10, I=
ssue 2, <=
/span>



Please also take a look at the following paper
on Negotiation in Multi-Agent Systems from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jenn=
ings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation
 in multi-agent systems. =
K=
nowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September 1999), pp.285-289. 



 



Thanks,



-dimitri.



 









From: 


Laurent=
, 


Thanks =
for the corrections. It’s difficult to participate in the discussion =
AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on everybody to provide s=
uch corrections if needed. BTW, I don’t think
 we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and Dimitri’=
s) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do you agree?



Persona=
lly, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and clearer when we&=
#8217;re actually arguing about a protocol or method.



I think=
 the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and=
 nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our initial focus is thi=
s”. (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the
 points you raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll raise them when w=
e discuss the solutions.



Michael=



&n=
bsp;









From:mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]


Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53

To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); =
anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today






 


Dear Michae=
l,



Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)



Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)

1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

    --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is =
not suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve confl=
icts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is =
what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality
 boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).

 

2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

    --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-=
chop features are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. =
these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.



Thanks, best regards, Laurent.




On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:=







Below are the notes I took, and the recording is =
here: 


https://cisco.webex.com/cisco=
sales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 


 


Michael


 


--


 


 


 


Notes from the ANIMA Call


11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT


 


Attendees


Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri=
 P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)<=
/o:p>


 


Notes


Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his c=
urrent view on things. 


 


List of items where we have not consensus:


1) Methodology of this working group


Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up=
 and top down. 


 


2) Selection of use cases


At which step do we plan the working group? What =
should be the first use cases? 


 


3) Common infrastructure components


Sheng: We should first work on those components, =
BEFORE working on use cases. 


 


Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus aut=
onomic service agents? 


Yes. (no objection) 


 


Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange inf=
ormation. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approac=
h. 


Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed cha=
rter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter=
, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just=
 one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draf=
t is the chosen one. 


Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not=
 clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 


Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the wor=
king group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protoco=
l. 


Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation =
requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down =
the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 


Brian: Completely agree. 


Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we des=
cribe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 


Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter =
is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translat=
e this into protocols. 


Sheng: This will take too long. 


Michael: Can we start with the simple communicati=
on methods, and expand as needed? 


Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, a=
nd other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The ch=
arter must allow this. 


Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure =
functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. <=
/o:p>


Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy =
requirements process. 


Dan: Need an intermediate state. 


Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate =
use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. =
Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for in=
tserv/diffserv. 


Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast n=
egotiation method? 


Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a hig=
her level. 


Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requ=
irements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad =
set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select =
use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrap=
ping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing =
for example. 


Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many a=
reas to work on. We don't know them yet. 


Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. <=
/o:p>


Laurent: The self-* features are in. <=
/span>


Michael: Need to document the different viewpoint=
s. 


 


 


 


_______________________________________________


Anima mailing list


Anima@ietf.org<=
/a>


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

 




 





-- 



Bien cordialement, Best regards,



 =




Laurent Ciavaglia



Advanced Internet Research<=
span lang=3D"EN-GB">



Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent<=
span lang=3D"EN-GB">



 =




phone: +33 160 402 6=
36




email:
laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com



linkedin:
laurentciavaglia



address: Route de Villejust | 9162=
0 Nozay | France












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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 17:21:40 +0200
From: Benoit Claise 
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Dear Laurent,

> Dear Benoit, all,
>
> Thanks for your feedback.
>
> One point puzzles me: why go through the whole process of a working 
> group to specify 2 protocols the quickest way possible? Why not just 
> submit the work as AD-sponsored or independent submissions?
> I am being a bit provocative here ;) don't get me wrong I am 
> supportive of the initiative.
> At the UCAN BoF, we got support to form a group on AN. Has the group 
> shown support for the 2 use cases / protocols mentioned?
>
> "There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things that could 
> be done quickly".
> It should be quick _*and*_ right, i.e. more emphasis and speed in 
> developing the right set of functionality (operators' expectations) 
> instead of point-solution protocols (necessary but not ultimate goal).
There is definitively some values in AN and we (Joel and I) see it.
On the other hand, NMRTG had plenty of time to dedicate to AN, and the 
progresses there have been slow (there is no points to delve into the 
reasons on this mailing list, but that's a fact). So we took the 
approach to have a reduced charter. Note that we wrote "focus on things 
that could be done quickly", and not the "focus on things that could be 
done the quickest way possible".
 From day one, we said "two use cases", and we gave freedom to the 
community to select which ones. I understand that the two use cases in 
the charter have running code: that also helps.
I'm hoping that this WG will be successful, and that plenty of charter 
updates will follow, but I have to make sure that the WG has a 
reasonable probability of having success.
>
> To my view, the group should start with focus on 1-2 functionalities 
> (and not protocols).
functionality isn't equal to use case?
>
> In your other email, you consider charter-09 as the stable version. I 
> have produced version -10 which combines the main charter 
> contributions and comments so far, in the spirit of creating a larger 
> basis for this working group and highlighting the implications of the 
> different approaches presented (i.e. protocol driven vs. functionality 
> driven). 
The issue is that it's a complete rewrite of the 9 previous iterations.

> Did you had time to consider it?
Yes, and I don't believe that the described "main goals of the ANIMA WG" 
are the right ones.
And the dual approach of bottom-up and top-down will not work IMO.
However, during a call this morning, Michael propose to use 2 paragraphs 
from your charter proposal.
Let me post it shortly.

Regards, Benoit
>
> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>
>
> On 11/09/2014 12:37, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Sorry for the delay in providing guidance. Back to normal operation 
>> mode (from vacation), I'll be more responsive from now on.
>> I've been reviewing the entire email archive, and Joel & I discussed 
>> the ANIMA status yesterday, based on the charter v8.
>>
>> A few observations, to start with:
>> 1. Autonomic Networking could be a huge explanatory field.
>> 2. From the BoF, we heard (among other points):
>>     There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things that 
>> could be done quickly
>> 3. The IESG has also been realizing that the process of problem 
>> statement/use cases/requirements/architecture/protocol takes way too 
>> long for the industry.
>> 4. If a great architecture document to rule all autonomic functions 
>> would have been easy, it would been done already. In NMRG for 
>> example, which had plenty of time to think about it! So an 
>> architecture as a starting point is not the right approach.
>> 5. A WG can always be re-chartered in future phases
>>
>> These are the reasons why Joel and I asked the BoF chairs to lead a 
>> charter discussion, focusing on only 2 use cases.
>> In the mean time, the charter moved in the direction of developing 
>> reusable infrastructure components for distributed autonomic 
>> networking functions plus 2 uses case to demonstrate the usage of 
>> those infrastructure components. Even better.
>>
>> Regarding the "architecture" (see point 4 above), we like the 
>> phrasing of:
>>
>>     It is essential that these components and solutions fit together
>>     as an integrated whole.
>>     For this reason, an overview document will be developed in
>>     parallel with the individual
>>     specifications.
>>
>>
>> Coming back to the number of use cases and the sentence "A second 
>> simple example may be added by agreement with the Area Director", we 
>> believe that the second use case is in the charter already, but 
>> somehow hidden. We read that "Autonomic Control Plane" and/or 
>> "bootstrap a trust infrastructure" (not sure about the second one 
>> though) are at the same time reusable component and a use case. Can 
>> you please describe your use case in a bullet point, next to 
>> "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network"
>> Also, wrt "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a 
>> network", can you please describe the use case some more. This is a 
>> little bit too high level.
>>
>> Looking at the charter v9 now.
>> Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I actually 
>> believe that pointing to existing work is a plus, to see some 
>> description behind a single bullet point. Let's imagine that you read 
>> "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane" 
>> for the first time (this is what will happen when/if this charter is 
>> proposed for last-call), I'm sure that would lead to many questions 
>> or potential wrong assumptions.
>> Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply that we 
>> ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.
>>
>> One final edit. From the email discussion, I read that one of the AN 
>> goal is OPEX reduction. That's maybe an obvious but a key message to 
>> mention in the charter. In the problem statement paragraph, this 
>> could introduce in the last sentence.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
> -- 
>
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>
> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>
> Advanced Internet Research
>
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>
> phone: +33 160 402 636
>
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
> 
>
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>
>   * English - detected
>   * English
>   * French
>
>   * English
>   * French
>
> 2


--------------070405000604030202040206
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


  
    
  
  
    
Dear Laurent,

      

    

    

      
      
      Dear Benoit, all,

        

        Thanks for your feedback.

        

        One point puzzles me: why go through the whole process of a
        working group to specify 2 protocols the quickest way possible?
        Why not just submit the work as AD-sponsored or independent
        submissions?

        I am being a bit provocative here ;) don't get me wrong I am
        supportive of the initiative.

      At the
          UCAN BoF, we got support to form a group on AN. Has the
        group shown support for the 2 use cases / protocols mentioned?

      

          "There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things
          that could be done quickly".

          It should be quick and right, i.e. more
          emphasis and speed in developing the right set of
          functionality (operators' expectations) instead of
          point-solution protocols (necessary but not ultimate goal).

        

    There is definitively some values in AN and we (Joel and I) see it.

    On the other hand, NMRTG had plenty of time to dedicate to AN, and
    the progresses there have been slow (there is no points to delve
    into the reasons on this mailing list, but that's a fact). So we
    took the approach to have a reduced charter. Note that we wrote "focus on things that could be done quickly",
    and not the "focus on things that could be done
      the quickest way possible".

    From day one, we said "two use cases", and we gave freedom to the
    community to select which ones. I understand that the two use cases
    in the charter have running code: that also helps.

    I'm hoping that this WG will be successful, and that plenty of
    charter updates will follow, but I have to make sure that the WG has
    a reasonable probability of having success.
    
 

          To my view, the group should start with focus on 1-2
          functionalities (and not protocols).

        

    functionality isn't equal to use case?

    
 

      In your other email, you consider
              charter-09 as the stable version. I have produced version
              -10 which combines the
                                      main charter contributions and
                                      comments so far, in


                          the spirit of creating a larger basis for this
                          working group and highlighting the
                          implications of the different approaches
                          presented (i.e. protocol driven vs.
                          functionality driven). 

    The issue is that it's a complete rewrite
      of the 9 previous iterations.

      

    
    
Did you had time to consider it?

                

    Yes, and I don't believe that the described
      "main goals of the ANIMA WG" are the right ones.

      And the dual approach of bottom-up and top-down will not work IMO.

      However, during a call this morning, Michael propose to use 2
      paragraphs from your charter proposal.

      Let me post it shortly.

      

      Regards, Benoit

    
    
 

                Thanks, best regards,
          Laurent.

          

          

        
      
On 11/09/2014 12:37, Benoit Claise
        wrote:

      

      

        Dear all,

        

        Sorry for the delay in providing guidance. Back to normal
        operation mode (from vacation), I'll be more responsive from now
        on.

        I've been reviewing the entire email archive, and Joel & I
        discussed the ANIMA status yesterday, based on the charter v8.

        

        A few observations, to start with:

        1. Autonomic Networking could be a huge explanatory field. 

        2. From the BoF, we heard (among other points): 

              There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things
          that could be done quickly

          3. The IESG has also been realizing that the process of
          problem statement/use cases/requirements/architecture/protocol
          takes way too long for the industry.

          4. If a great
            architecture document to rule all autonomic functions would
            have been easy, it would been done already. In NMRG for
            example, which had plenty of time to think about it! So an
            architecture as a starting point is not the right approach.

            5. A WG can always be re-chartered in future phases

          

          These are the reasons why Joel and I asked the BoF chairs to
          lead a charter discussion, focusing on only 2 use cases.

          In the mean time, the charter moved in the direction of developing


        reusable infrastructure components for distributed autonomic
        networking functions plus 2 uses case to demonstrate the usage of those
            infrastructure components. Even better. 

          

          Regarding the "architecture" (see point 4 above), we like the
          phrasing of:

        
        
It is essential that these
            components and solutions fit together as an integrated
            whole.

          For this reason, an overview document will
            be developed in parallel with the individual

          specifications.

          

        

          Coming back to the number of use cases and the sentence "A second simple example may be
          added by agreement with the Area Director", we believe that
          the second use case is in the charter already, but somehow
          hidden. We read that "Autonomic Control Plane" and/or
          "bootstrap a trust infrastructure" (not sure about the second
          one though) are at the same time reusable component and a use
          case. Can you please describe your use case in a bullet point,
          next to "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management
          within a network"

          Also, wrt "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management
          within a network", can you please describe the use case some
          more. This is a little bit too high level.

          

          Looking at the charter v9 now.

          Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I
          actually believe that pointing to existing work is a plus, to
          see some description behind a single bullet point. Let's
          imagine that you read "Definition of a solution for a
          separated Autonomic Control Plane" for the first time (this is
          what will happen when/if this charter is proposed for
          last-call), I'm sure that would lead to many questions or
          potential wrong assumptions.

          Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply
          that we ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.

        

          One final edit. From the email discussion, I read that one of
          the AN goal is OPEX reduction. That's maybe an obvious but a
          key message to mention in the charter. In the problem
          statement paragraph, this could introduce in the last
          sentence.

        

          Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)

          

         

        

        

        
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


      

      

      
-- 

        
        
        

          
Bien cordialement, Best
              regards,

          
 

          
Laurent Ciavaglia

          
Advanced
              Internet Research

          
Bell Labs |
              Alcatel Lucent

          
 

          
phone: +33 160 402 636 

          
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

          
linkedin: laurentciavaglia

          
address: Route de
              Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

        

      

      

        

          

            

              
    
                
  • English - detected
    • 
                
  • English
    • 
                
  • French
    • 
              

            

            

              
    
                
  • English
    • 
                
  • French
    • 
              

            

          

        

        
2

        

    

    

  


--------------070405000604030202040206--


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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 17:38:22 +0200
From: Benoit Claise 
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Hi Dimitri,
> Benoit:
>
>> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
>> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter text in
>> the tool.
> The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as stable are diverting from
Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability? I 
don't think so.
> the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to, in particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the thing right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the end of the first charter term ?"
To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a timely 
manner"
>
> Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a reusable piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial. Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known loophole protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and never see any wide adoption because potential users would need the next use case/feature not covered by the protocol, is neither going to help the "industry" nor the IETF.
>
> An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a reusable piece of work is currently ongoing (cf. ). You would be well advised in considering it.
Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.

Regards, Benoit

>
> Thanks,
> -dimitri.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
>> To: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is, let's say
>> it, a pain.
>>
>> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
>> Please bookmark https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>>
>> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9 from
>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter , which I
>> consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
>> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note that
>> only formating changes were inserted between versions
>> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
>>
>> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
>> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter text in
>> the tool.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> .
>


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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On 12/09/2014 15:54, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Michael,
>
> please see inline.
>
> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>
> On 12/09/2014 15:05, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>
>> Laurent,
>>
>> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the 
>> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on 
>> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think 
>> we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and 
>> Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do 
>> you agree?
>>
> yes, of course.
>
>> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and 
>> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>>
> As discussed yesterday on the call: first define the boundaries of the 
> functionality, then specify the protocols.
> It is the understanding of the boundaries of the functionality as a 
> reusable component to solve several cases that will create the value 
> (/genericity) in the protocols.
> Also there is no automatic 1:1 mapping of the set of functionality to 
> the set of protocols.
>
>> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do 
>> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is 
>> this".
>>
> yes, probably.
> what is not helping to solve this impression ("this and nothing 
> else"), is
>     -that the charter v1-9 are explicitly naming 2 cases, leaving 
> no/few room to others.
>     -that the focus is on "protocolsfirst and protocolsonly" instead 
> of functionality and protocols (charter v10 is proposing a fast track 
> to "test" 1 functionality / protocol(s) in parallel to the progress of 
> the other WG activities).
>
>> (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you raise 
>> MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss the 
>> solutions.
>>
> Agreed. One of my concerns is that the initial scope in open enough to 
> attract a large base of contributions/contributors. Said in other 
> words: will potential contributors find areas (e.g. config., healing, 
> protect., optim.) where their problems/interests/competencies can be 
> addressed/applied.
The development of autonomic networking use cases, according to the 
criteria at 
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-ucan-0.pdf, is 
encouraged, but we have to understand that not all uses cases can be 
considered in an initial charter.

Regards, Benoit
>
>
>> Michael
>>
>> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>
>> Dear Michael,
>>
>> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>>
>> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
>> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited 
>> to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, 
>> avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is 
>> what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality 
>> boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).
>>
>> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop 
>> features are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. 
>> these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>>
>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>
>> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>
>>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>>
>>     https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93  
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Michael
>>
>>       
>>
>>     --
>>
>>       
>>
>>       
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>>
>>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Attendees
>>
>>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Notes
>>
>>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>>
>>       
>>
>>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>>
>>     1) Methodology of this working group
>>
>>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>>
>>       
>>
>>     2) Selection of use cases
>>
>>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>>
>>       
>>
>>     3) Common infrastructure components
>>
>>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
>>
>>     Yes. (no objection)
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>>
>>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
>>
>>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
>>
>>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>>
>>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
>>
>>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>>
>>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>>
>>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>>
>>     Brian: Completely agree.
>>
>>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>>
>>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
>>
>>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>>
>>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
>>
>>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
>>
>>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>>
>>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
>>
>>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>>
>>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
>>
>>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>>
>>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>
>>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>>
>>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
>>
>>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>>
>>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>
>>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>>
>>       
>>
>>       
>>
>>       
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>
>>     Anima mailing list
>>
>>     Anima@ietf.org  
>>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>       
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>
>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>
>> Advanced Internet Research
>>
>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>
>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>
>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
>> 
>>
>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>>
>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>
>
> -- 
>
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>
> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>
> Advanced Internet Research
>
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>
> phone: +33 160 402 636
>
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
> 
>
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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On 12/09/2014 15:54, Laurent Ciavaglia
      wrote:

    

    

      
      Michael,

        

        please see inline. 

        

        Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

        

      
      
On 12/09/2014 15:05, Michael
        Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

      

      

        
        
        

          
Laurent,

                

          
Thanks

                for the corrections. It’s difficult to participate in
                the discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so
                I count on everybody to provide such corrections if
                needed. BTW, I don’t think we need to re-do those notes,
                since the notes AND your (and Dimitri’s) comments are in
                the same mail thread in the archive. Do you agree?

        

      

      yes, of course.

        

      
      

        

          
Personally,

                I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and
                clearer when we’re actually arguing about a protocol or
                method. 

        

      

      As discussed yesterday on the call: first
        define the boundaries of the functionality, then specify the
        protocols.

        It is the understanding of the boundaries of the functionality
        as a reusable component to solve several cases that will create
        the value (/genericity) in the protocols.

        Also there is no automatic 1:1 mapping of the set of
        functionality to the set of protocols.

        

      
      

        

          

          
I
                think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as
                “we will do this and nothing else”, whereas the intent
                is “our initial focus is this”.

        

      

      yes, probably.

        what is not helping to solve this impression ("this and nothing
        else"), is 

            -that the charter v1-9 are explicitly naming 2 cases,
        leaving no/few room to others.

            -that the focus is on "protocols first and protocols only"
        instead of functionality and protocols (charter v10 is proposing
        a fast track to "test" 1 functionality / protocol(s) in parallel
        to the progress of the other WG activities).

        

      
      

        

          

                (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the
                points you raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll raise
                them when we discuss the solutions. 

        

      

       Agreed. One of my concerns is that the
        initial scope in open enough to attract a large base of
        contributions/contributors. Said in other words: will potential
        contributors find areas (e.g. config., healing, protect.,
        optim.) where their problems/interests/competencies can be
        addressed/applied.

      

    The development of autonomic networking use cases, according to the
    criteria at
    http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-ucan-0.pdf, is
    encouraged, but we have to understand that not all uses cases can be
    considered in an initial charter.

    

    Regards, Benoit

    
 

        

      
      

        

          

          
Michael

          
 

          

            

              

                

                  From: Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
                      

                      Sent:
                      12 September 2014 14:53

                      To:
                      Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org

                      Subject:
                      Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today

              

            

            
 

            
Dear Michael,

                  

                  Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving
                  this call ;)

                  

                  Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments
                  of the call)

                  1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a
                  higher level. 

                      --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast
                  communication is not suited to coordinate multiple
                  autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, avoid
                  oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered.
                  this is what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation
                  functionality boundaries) before specifying the
                  protocol(s).

                   

                  2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                      --> as written in charter -10, the conventional
                  self-chop features are in: configuration, protection,
                  healing and optimization. these should be the minimal
                  basis for the group scope.

                  

                  Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

                  

                

            

              
On
                    11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
                    wrote:

            

            

              
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 

              
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

              
 

              
Michael

              
 

              
--

              
 

              
 

              
 

              
Notes from the ANIMA Call

              
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

              
 

              
Attendees

              
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

              
 

              
Notes

              
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

              
 

              
List of items where we have not consensus:

              
1) Methodology of this working group

              
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

              
 

              
2) Selection of use cases

              
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

              
 

              
3) Common infrastructure components

              
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

              
 

              
Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 

              
Yes. (no objection) 

              
 

              
Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 

              
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

              
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

              
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

              
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 

              
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 

              
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 

              
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 

              
Brian: Completely agree. 

              
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 

              
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 

              
Sheng: This will take too long. 

              
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 

              
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 

              
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 

              
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 

              
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 

              
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

              
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 

              
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

              
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 

              
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 

              
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 

              
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

              
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

              
 

              
 

              
 

              
_______________________________________________

              
Anima mailing list

              
Anima@ietf.org

              
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

              
 

            

            
 

            

              

                --  

              

                Bien
                    cordialement, Best regards,

              

                 

              

                Laurent

                      Ciavaglia

              

                Advanced
                    Internet Research

              

                Bell Labs |
                    Alcatel Lucent

              

                 

              

                phone:
                    +33 160 402 636 

              

                email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

              

                linkedin: laurentciavaglia

              

                address:
                    Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

            

          

        

      

      

      
-- 

        
        
        

          
Bien cordialement, Best
              regards,

          
 

          
Laurent Ciavaglia

          
Advanced
              Internet Research

          
Bell Labs |
              Alcatel Lucent

          
 

          
phone: +33 160 402 636 

          
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

          
linkedin: laurentciavaglia

          
address: Route de
              Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

        

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


    

    

  


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Dimitri,
>
> Michael,
>
> If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this 
> and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this"
>
I believe it's covered by the charter.

The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
more modest


> can you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I am 
> interested in the following part
>
> /[specific goals]/
>
> /o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic 
> functions/
>
> I have tried to explain during the call that underneath "negotiation" 
> sits theproblem by which a collection of interacting/agents/ aim at 
> reaching agreement in order to realize an "intent" is a key aspect of 
> the work. Renumbering/address management being outside my 
> scope/interest, how practically the charter does allow me to work in 
> this item when it states:
>
> /The working group will initially consider a simple example as a test 
> case for further work. /
>
That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See 
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>
> //
>
> /o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network/
>
I agree that this bullet is not described enough.

Regards, Benoit
>
> //
>
> There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter 
> aims defining such component but for instance behind the term 
> negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is 
> about base information exchange (more precisely a base description of 
> what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation object. Thus 
> missing i) the actual "*_negotiation protocols_* are the set of rules 
> that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible types of 
> participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third parties), the 
> negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation closed), the 
> events that cause state transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid 
> accepted), and the valid actions of the participants in particular 
> states (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and at when)." and 
> ii) the *_agents' reasoning models_* which provide "the decision 
> making apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve their 
> objectives. The sophistication of the model is determined by the 
> protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the range of 
> operations that can be performed on it"
>
> Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be 
> viewed as a "distributed search through a space of potential 
> agreements about some joint problem [...] To improve the efficiency of 
> the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be able to provide 
> more useful feedback on the proposals it receives than just whether or 
> not it agrees to them. This feedback can take the form of a critique 
> (comments on which parts of the proposal the agent likes or dislikes) 
> or a counter-proposal (an alternative proposal generated in response 
> to a proposal). From such feedback, the proposer should be able to 
> generate a proposal which is more likely to lead to an agreement (if 
> it chooses to do so).
>
> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On 
> argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the International 
> Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.
>
> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings 
>  et 
> al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group 
> Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 199-215
>
> Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in 
> Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, 
> Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation 
> in multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3 (September 1999), 
> pp.285-289.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -dimitri.
>
> *From:*Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael 
> Behringer (mbehring)
> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
> *To:* CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>
> Laurent,
>
> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the 
> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on 
> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think we 
> need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and Dimitri's) 
> comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do you agree?
>
> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and 
> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>
> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do 
> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is 
> this". (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you 
> raise MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss the 
> solutions.
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org 
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>
> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited to 
> coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, 
> avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is 
> what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality boundaries) 
> before specifying the protocol(s).
>
> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop features 
> are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. these 
> should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>
> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>
> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>
>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>
>     https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93  
>
>       
>
>     Michael
>
>       
>
>     --
>
>       
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>
>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>
>       
>
>     Attendees
>
>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>
>       
>
>     Notes
>
>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>
>       
>
>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>
>     1) Methodology of this working group
>
>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>
>       
>
>     2) Selection of use cases
>
>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>
>       
>
>     3) Common infrastructure components
>
>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>
>       
>
>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
>
>     Yes. (no objection)
>
>       
>
>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>
>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
>
>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
>
>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>
>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
>
>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>
>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>
>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>
>     Brian: Completely agree.
>
>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>
>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
>
>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>
>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
>
>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
>
>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>
>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
>
>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>
>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
>
>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>
>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>
>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>
>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
>
>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>
>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>
>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>
>       
>
>       
>
>       
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Anima mailing list
>
>     Anima@ietf.org  
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>       
>
> -- 
>
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>
> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>
> Advanced Internet Research
>
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>
> phone: +33 160 402 636
>
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
> 
>
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Dimitri,

    

    

      
      
      
      

        
Michael,   

        
If
          the charter
            has been sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and
            nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our initial focus is
            this” 
          

          

      

    

    I believe it's covered by the charter.

    
The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
more modest

    

    

      

        
can
            you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I
          am interested
            in the following part

        
[specific
              goals]

        
o Definition
              of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic
              functions

        
I have tried
            to explain during the call that underneath “negotiation”
            sits the problem by which a collection of
              interacting agents aim
              at reaching agreement in order to realize an “intent” is a
              key aspect of the work.
            Renumbering/address
            management being outside my scope/interest, how practically
            the charter does allow me to work in this item when it
            states:

        
The working
              group will initially consider a simple example as a test
              case for further work.
            

      

    

    That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt

    

      

        

        
o Definition
              of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network

      

    

    I agree that this bullet is not described enough.

    

    Regards, Benoit

    

      

        

        
There is
            however a broader technical point of concern, the charter
            aims defining such component but for instance behind the
            term negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3
            
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is
            about base information exchange (more precisely a base
            description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the
            negotiation object. Thus missing i) the actual “negotiation
                protocols are the set of rules that govern the
            interaction. This covers, the permissible types of
            participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third
            parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids,
            negotiation closed), the events that cause state transitions
            (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and the valid actions
            of the participants in particular states (e.g., which can be
            sent by whom, to whom and at when).” and ii) the
            agents’ reasoning models which provide “the
            decision making apparatus by which participants attempt to
            achieve their objectives. The sophistication of the model is
            determined by the protocol used, the nature of the
            negotiation object, and the range of operations that can be
            performed on it”

        
Negotiation in
            the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be viewed
            as a “distributed search through a space of potential
            agreements about some joint problem […] To improve the
            efficiency of the negotiation process, the recipient needs
            to be able to provide more useful feedback on the proposals
            it receives than just whether or not it agrees to them. This
            feedback can take the form of a critique (comments on which
            parts of the proposal the agent likes or dislikes) or a
            counter-proposal (an alternative proposal generated in
            response to a proposal). From such feedback, the proposer
            should be able to generate a proposal which is more likely
            to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do so).

        
 

        
[Jen1998]
            N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On
            argumentation-based negotiation,
            Proceedings of the International Workshop on Multi-Agent
              Systems, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

        
 

        
[Jen2001]
          N.R.Jennings
            et al., Automated
              Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group
            Decision and Negotiation,
            March
              2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp
              199-215

        
Please also
            take a look at the following paper
            on Negotiation in Multi-Agent Systems from Martin
            Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris
            Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation in
            multi-agent systems. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September
            1999), pp.285-289. 

        
 

        
Thanks,

        
-dimitri.

        
 

        

          

            

              

                From:
                  Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org]
                  On Behalf Of Michael Behringer (mbehring)

                  Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM

                  To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT);
                  anima@ietf.org

                  Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call
                  Today

            

          

          
 

          
Laurent,
              

          
Thanks
              for the corrections. It’s difficult to participate in the
              discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I
              count on everybody to provide such corrections if needed.
              BTW, I don’t think we need to re-do those notes, since the
              notes AND your (and Dimitri’s) comments are in the same
              mail thread in the archive. Do you agree?
              

          
Personally,
              I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and
              clearer when we’re actually arguing about a protocol or
              method.
              

          
I
              think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as “we
              will do this and nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our
              initial focus is this”. (And we say this explicitly)  In
              my view all of the points you raise MUST be raised, but I
              think we’ll raise them when we discuss the solutions.
              

          
Michael

          
 

          

            

              

                

                  From:
                    Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
                    

                    Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53

                    To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org

                    Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
                    Call Today

              

            

            
 

            
Dear Michael,

                

                Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving
                this call ;)

                

                Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of
                the call)

                1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher
                level. 

                    --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication
                is not suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions
                (how to resolve conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.).
                other means should be considered. this is what we need
                to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality
                boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).

                 

                2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                    --> as written in charter -10, the conventional
                self-chop features are in: configuration, protection,
                healing and optimization. these should be the minimal
                basis for the group scope.

                

                Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

            

              
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer
                  (mbehring) wrote:

            

            

              
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 

              
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

              
 

              
Michael

              
 

              
--

              
 

              
 

              
 

              
Notes from the ANIMA Call

              
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

              
 

              
Attendees

              
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

              
 

              
Notes

              
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

              
 

              
List of items where we have not consensus:

              
1) Methodology of this working group

              
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

              
 

              
2) Selection of use cases

              
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

              
 

              
3) Common infrastructure components

              
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

              
 

              
Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 

              
Yes. (no objection) 

              
 

              
Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 

              
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

              
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

              
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

              
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 

              
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 

              
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 

              
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 

              
Brian: Completely agree. 

              
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 

              
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 

              
Sheng: This will take too long. 

              
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 

              
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 

              
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 

              
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 

              
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 

              
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

              
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 

              
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

              
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 

              
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 

              
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 

              
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

              
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

              
 

              
 

              
 

              
_______________________________________________

              
Anima mailing list

              
Anima@ietf.org

              
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

              
 

            

            
 

            

              

                -- 

              

                Bien
                  cordialement, Best regards,

              

                 

              

                Laurent Ciavaglia

              

                Advanced
                  Internet Research

              

                Bell
                  Labs | Alcatel Lucent

              

                 

              

                phone:
                  +33 160 402 636
                

              

                email:
                  laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

              

                linkedin:
                  laurentciavaglia

              

                address:
                  Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

            

          

        

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


    

    

  


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Dear all,

See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/

Regards, Benoit


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Subject: [Anima] Concerns on Anima pre-WG status and potential directions to address these (Re: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today)
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Dear colleagues:

I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me circulating 
comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the charter, but the AD 
artillery at this stage kind of forces me to weigh-in.

First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock version 10) 
yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did I participate in 
the last conference call (in the middle of my sleep cycle).

Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:
- main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the BOF had 
~200 people in attendance, discussions on the call/mailing list seem to 
draw in only a handful of people. This does not bode well for support 
for the effort. {It could be that people are intimidated by presumably 
having to read the drafts mentioned in the charter first (I was 
intimidated by this myself, but now did all this, and also read the 40 
page survey on autonomic networking).} This makes me wonder why not more 
people are interested. [It has some advantages as well, since sometimes 
a small group works better.]
- second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the draft 
charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as deliverable 
direction. In my mind, it would be better to describe the problem areas 
the soon to be WG is supposed to work on (hence, my question to you on 
ACP one para description).
- third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps" that I 
would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to try and bridge 
this before sending stuff the direction of an AD (esp. when so few 
people are involved)?

I would think trying to understand what drives the different "camps" has 
priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?

Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them happened 
in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was on vacation, so 
it seems...). By itself, the version number does not indicate concensus 
or stability.

Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area:
- Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled first in 
one para, no other context required, language. Idea here is to make the 
charter readable for non-expert readers
- Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in various draft 
charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the definition draft and 
some fundamental ones on each of the three solution drafts).

The two items above I had originally plan to complete last weekend; I 
hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week.

Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a bigger chance 
to be addressed by a) having a clear description of what the group wants 
to accomplish; (b) having some actual technical discussion on the 
solution drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts, which - so far - have 
been hard to trace.

Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in 
circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee ... and 
volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important and useful, if 
done right).

Best regards, Rene

On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dimitri,
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this 
>> and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this"
>>
> I believe it's covered by the charter.
> The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
> more modest
>
>> can you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I am 
>> interested in the following part
>>
>> /[specific goals]/
>>
>> /o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic 
>> functions/
>>
>> I have tried to explain during the call that underneath "negotiation" 
>> sits theproblem by which a collection of interacting/agents/ aim at 
>> reaching agreement in order to realize an "intent" is a key aspect of 
>> the work. Renumbering/address management being outside my 
>> scope/interest, how practically the charter does allow me to work in 
>> this item when it states:
>>
>> /The working group will initially consider a simple example as a test 
>> case for further work. /
>>
> That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See 
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>>
>> //
>>
>> /o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network/
>>
> I agree that this bullet is not described enough.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> //
>>
>> There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter 
>> aims defining such component but for instance behind the term 
>> negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is 
>> about base information exchange (more precisely a base description of 
>> what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation object. Thus 
>> missing i) the actual "*_negotiation protocols_* are the set of rules 
>> that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible types of 
>> participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third parties), the 
>> negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation closed), the 
>> events that cause state transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid 
>> accepted), and the valid actions of the participants in particular 
>> states (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and at when)." and 
>> ii) the *_agents' reasoning models_* which provide "the decision 
>> making apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve their 
>> objectives. The sophistication of the model is determined by the 
>> protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the range of 
>> operations that can be performed on it"
>>
>> Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be 
>> viewed as a "distributed search through a space of potential 
>> agreements about some joint problem [...] To improve the efficiency 
>> of the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be able to provide 
>> more useful feedback on the proposals it receives than just whether 
>> or not it agrees to them. This feedback can take the form of a 
>> critique (comments on which parts of the proposal the agent likes or 
>> dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative proposal generated in 
>> response to a proposal). From such feedback, the proposer should be 
>> able to generate a proposal which is more likely to lead to an 
>> agreement (if it chooses to do so).
>>
>> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On 
>> argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the International 
>> Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.
>>
>> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings 
>>  et 
>> al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group 
>> Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 199-215
>>
>> Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in 
>> Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, 
>> Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation 
>> in multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3 (September 1999), 
>> pp.285-289.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -dimitri.
>>
>> *From:*Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael 
>> Behringer (mbehring)
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
>> *To:* CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>
>> Laurent,
>>
>> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the 
>> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on 
>> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think 
>> we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and 
>> Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do 
>> you agree?
>>
>> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and 
>> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>>
>> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do 
>> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is 
>> this". (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you 
>> raise MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss 
>> the solutions.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org 
>> 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>
>> Dear Michael,
>>
>> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>>
>> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
>> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited 
>> to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, 
>> avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is 
>> what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality 
>> boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).
>>
>> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop 
>> features are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. 
>> these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>>
>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>
>> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>
>>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>>
>>     https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93  
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Michael
>>
>>       
>>
>>     --
>>
>>       
>>
>>       
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>>
>>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Attendees
>>
>>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Notes
>>
>>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>>
>>       
>>
>>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>>
>>     1) Methodology of this working group
>>
>>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>>
>>       
>>
>>     2) Selection of use cases
>>
>>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>>
>>       
>>
>>     3) Common infrastructure components
>>
>>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
>>
>>     Yes. (no objection)
>>
>>       
>>
>>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>>
>>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
>>
>>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
>>
>>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>>
>>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
>>
>>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>>
>>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>>
>>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>>
>>     Brian: Completely agree.
>>
>>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>>
>>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
>>
>>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>>
>>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
>>
>>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
>>
>>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>>
>>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
>>
>>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>>
>>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
>>
>>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>>
>>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>
>>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>>
>>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
>>
>>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>>
>>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>
>>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>>
>>       
>>
>>       
>>
>>       
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>
>>     Anima mailing list
>>
>>     Anima@ietf.org  
>>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>       
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>
>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>
>> Advanced Internet Research
>>
>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>
>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>
>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
>> 
>>
>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>>
>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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--------------040308050306060608090009
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


  
    
  
  
    
Dear colleagues:

      

      I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me
      circulating comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the
      charter, but the AD artillery at this stage kind of forces me to
      weigh-in.

      

      First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock
      version 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did I
      participate in the last conference call (in the middle of my sleep
      cycle). 

      

      Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:

      - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the
      BOF had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the call/mailing
      list seem to draw in only a handful of people. This does not bode
      well for support for the effort. {It could be that people are
      intimidated by presumably having to read the drafts mentioned in
      the charter first (I was intimidated by this myself, but now did
      all this, and also read the 40 page survey on autonomic
      networking).} This makes me wonder why not more people are
      interested. [It has some advantages as well, since sometimes a
      small group works better.]
      

      - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the
      draft charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as
      deliverable direction. In my mind, it would be better to describe
      the problem areas the soon to be WG is supposed to work on (hence,
      my question to you on ACP one para description).
      

      - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps" that
      I would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to try
      and bridge this before sending stuff the direction of an AD (esp.
      when so few people are involved)?
      

      

      I would think trying to understand what drives the different
      "camps" has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?

      

      Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them
      happened in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was on
      vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the version number does not
      indicate concensus or stability.

      

      Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area:
      

      - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled first
      in one para, no other context required, language. Idea here is to
      make the charter readable for non-expert readers
      

      - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in various
      draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the definition
      draft and some fundamental ones on each of the three solution
      drafts).
      

      

      The two items above I had originally plan to complete last
      weekend; I hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week. 

      

      Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a bigger
      chance to be addressed by a) having a clear description of what
      the group wants to accomplish; (b) having some actual technical
      discussion on the solution drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts,
      which - so far - have been hard to trace.

      

      Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in
      circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee ...
      and volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important and
      useful, if done right).

      

      Best regards, Rene
      

      

      On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:

    

    

      
      
Dimitri,

      

      

        
        
        
        

          
Michael,   

          
If the charter has been
              sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and nothing
              else”, whereas the intent is “our initial focus is this” 
            

            

        

      

      I believe it's covered by the charter.

      
The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
more modest

      

      

        

          
can

              you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I
            am
              interested in the following part

          
[specific
                goals]

          
o
                Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for
                autonomic functions

          
I have tried
              to explain during the call that underneath “negotiation”
              sits the problem by which a collection
                of interacting agents aim

                at reaching agreement in order to realize an “intent” is
                a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address

              management being outside my scope/interest, how
              practically the charter does allow me to work in this item
              when it states:

          
The
                working group will initially consider a simple example
                as a test case for further work. 

        

      

      That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See
      https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt

      

        

          

          
o
                Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within
                a network

        

      

      I agree that this bullet is not described enough.

      

      Regards, Benoit

      

        

          

          
There is
              however a broader technical point of concern, the charter
              aims defining such component but for instance behind the
              term negotiation we understand different things Section
              2.3 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is
              about base information exchange (more precisely a base
              description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the
              negotiation object. Thus missing i) the actual “negotiation

                  protocols are the set of rules that govern the
              interaction. This covers, the permissible types of
              participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third
              parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids,
              negotiation closed), the events that cause state
              transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and the
              valid actions of the participants in particular states
              (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and at when).”
              and ii) the agents’ reasoning models which
              provide “the decision making apparatus by which
              participants attempt to achieve their objectives. The
              sophistication of the model is determined by the protocol
              used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the range
              of operations that can be performed on it”

          
Negotiation
              in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be
              viewed as a “distributed search through a space of
              potential agreements about some joint problem […] To
              improve the efficiency of the negotiation process, the
              recipient needs to be able to provide more useful feedback
              on the proposals it receives than just whether or not it
              agrees to them. This feedback can take the form of a
              critique (comments on which parts of the proposal the
              agent likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an
              alternative proposal generated in response to a proposal).
              From such feedback, the proposer should be able to
              generate a proposal which is more likely to lead to an
              agreement (if it chooses to do so).

          
 

          
[Jen1998]
              N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On
              argumentation-based negotiation, Proceedings of the
                International Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems, pages
              1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

          
 

          
[Jen2001] N.R.Jennings
              et al., Automated
                Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group

              Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume
                10, Issue 2, pp 199-215

          
Please also
              take a look at the following paper on Negotiation in
                Multi-Agent Systems from Martin

              Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris
              Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation in
              multi-agent systems. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September
              1999), pp.285-289. 

          
 

          
Thanks,

          
-dimitri.

          
 

          

            

              

                

                  From:
                    Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org]
                    On Behalf Of Michael Behringer (mbehring)

                    Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM

                    To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org

                    Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
                    Call Today

              

            

            
 

            
Laurent, 

            
Thanks for the corrections. It’s difficult
                to participate in the discussion AND try to catch
                everything correctly, so I count on everybody to provide
                such corrections if needed. BTW, I don’t think we need
                to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and
                Dimitri’s) comments are in the same mail thread in the
                archive. Do you agree? 

            
Personally, I think a lot of these
                discussions will be easier and clearer when we’re
                actually arguing about a protocol or method. 

            
I think the charter has been sometimes
                misunderstood as “we will do this and nothing else”,
                whereas the intent is “our initial focus is this”. (And
                we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points
                you raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll raise them
                when we discuss the solutions. 

            
Michael

            
 

            

              

                

                  

                    From:
                      Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
                      

                      Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53

                      To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org

                      Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
                      Call Today

                

              

              
 

              
Dear
                  Michael,

                  

                  Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving
                  this call ;)

                  

                  Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments
                  of the call)

                  1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a
                  higher level. 

                      --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast
                  communication is not suited to coordinate multiple
                  autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, avoid
                  oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered.
                  this is what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation
                  functionality boundaries) before specifying the
                  protocol(s).

                   

                  2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                      --> as written in charter -10, the conventional
                  self-chop features are in: configuration, protection,
                  healing and optimization. these should be the minimal
                  basis for the group scope.

                  

                  Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

              

                
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer
                    (mbehring) wrote:

              

              

                
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 

                
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

                
 

                
Michael

                
 

                
--

                
 

                
 

                
 

                
Notes from the ANIMA Call

                
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

                
 

                
Attendees

                
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

                
 

                
Notes

                
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

                
 

                
List of items where we have not consensus:

                
1) Methodology of this working group

                
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

                
 

                
2) Selection of use cases

                
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

                
 

                
3) Common infrastructure components

                
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

                
 

                
Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 

                
Yes. (no objection) 

                
 

                
Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 

                
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

                
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

                
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

                
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 

                
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 

                
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 

                
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 

                
Brian: Completely agree. 

                
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 

                
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 

                
Sheng: This will take too long. 

                
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 

                
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 

                
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 

                
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 

                
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 

                
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

                
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 

                
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

                
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 

                
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 

                
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 

                
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

                
 

                
 

                
 

                
_______________________________________________

                
Anima mailing list

                
Anima@ietf.org

                
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

                
 

              

              
 

              

                

                  -- 

                

                  Bien cordialement, Best regards,

                

                   

                

                  Laurent Ciavaglia

                

                  Advanced Internet Research

                

                  Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

                

                   

                

                  phone: +33 160 402 636 

                

                  email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

                

                  linkedin: laurentciavaglia

                

                  address: Route de Villejust | 91620
                    Nozay | France

              

            

          

        

        

        

        

        
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


      

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


    

    

    

    
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Hi Benoit,=20

The purpose is not to bring a bigger problem but determine its boundaries t=
owards building stronger foundations to the protocol effort. I have tried t=
o explain in  what are the boundaries of a negotiation process, but if I take discov=
ery part for instance, the same type of discussion can be initiated.=20

Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (listed i=
n the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation platform (=
if someone can explain what the word platform means in this context this wo=
uld be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios are still hie=
rarchical networks [...] we assume that each network element has a hierarch=
ical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NRMG framework docum=
ent which states "Those nodes communicate with each other through an Autono=
mic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure communications overlay=
" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent communication paths and not=
 the other way around), and more importantly it doesn't put at all in persp=
ective the three components of a discovery process in such systems: where i=
s agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y (function/resource), whic=
h knowledge has agent Z (information) and whether other agents should acces=
s either of them directly or indirectly. This type of considerations should=
 be part of a document that could be considered as a starting point.=20

Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting a =
document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR applicati=
on to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this group propo=
sing its royalty free protocol ?

Many thanks,
-dimitri.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Hi Dimitri,
> > Benoit:
> >
> >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> >> text in the tool.
> > The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as
> > stable are diverting from
> Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability? I
> don't think so.
> > the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to, in
> particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the thing
> right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the end of the
> first charter term ?"
> To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a timely
> manner"
> >
> > Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a reusabl=
e
> piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial.
> Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known loophole
> protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and never see any wid=
e
> adoption because potential users would need the next use case/feature not
> covered by the protocol, is neither going to help the "industry" nor the
> IETF.
> >
> > An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter
> contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a reusable
> piece of work is currently ongoing (cf.  archive/web/anima/current/msg00242.html>). You would be well advised in
> considering it.
> Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
> I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
>=20
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -dimitri.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit
> >> Claise
> >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> >> To: anima@ietf.org
> >> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is, let's
> >> say it, a pain.
> >>
> >> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> >> Please bookmark https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> >>
> >> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9 from
> >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter , which I
> >> consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
> >> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note
> >> that only formating changes were inserted between versions
> >> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> >>
> >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> >> text in the tool.
> >>
> >> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Anima mailing list
> >> Anima@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > .
> >


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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 08:24:43 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Cc: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Two clarifications:

On 13/09/2014 07:56, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
...
> Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (listed in the charter)

No, we have removed it from the charter according to earlier
discussions.  (I'd be glad to respond to your specific comments
on the draft, but that is not a chartering issue.)

...
> Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this group proposing its royalty free protocol ?

IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted -
there is nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.
Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any
disclosed IPR is a problem or not; that's a consensus matter,
not an AD choice.

   Brian


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Cc: Benoit Claise , "CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT \(LAURENT\)" , "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Concerns on Anima pre-WG status and potential directions to address these (Re: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today)
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On 13/09/2014 04:12, Rene Struik wrote:
> Dear colleagues:
> 
> I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me circulating
> comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the charter, but the AD
> artillery at this stage kind of forces me to weigh-in.
> 
> First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock version 10)
> yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did I participate in
> the last conference call (in the middle of my sleep cycle).
> 
> Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:
> - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the BOF had
> ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the call/mailing list seem to
> draw in only a handful of people. This does not bode well for support
> for the effort. {It could be that people are intimidated by presumably
> having to read the drafts mentioned in the charter first (I was
> intimidated by this myself, but now did all this, and also read the 40
> page survey on autonomic networking).} This makes me wonder why not more
> people are interested. [It has some advantages as well, since sometimes
> a small group works better.]

I am not actually surprised at this. I would have preferred a
few more people to chime in with independent opinions, but
frankly many people find charter discussions a bit boring, and
we haven't been discussing concrete proposals.

> - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the draft
> charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as deliverable
> direction. In my mind, it would be better to describe the problem areas
> the soon to be WG is supposed to work on (hence, my question to you on
> ACP one para description).

The "starting point" drafts have been removed from the charter.
I think the problem area is fairly well described in the NMRG
dcouments I (and increasingly in the charter as it has expanded).

> - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps" that I
> would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to try and bridge
> this before sending stuff the direction of an AD (esp. when so few
> people are involved)?

We have been trying; that's exactly why there were so many
versions of the charter. Speaking personally, I believe that we
have responded to every point that has been raised, while
considering the advice we were given by the ADs in Toronto.

> I would think trying to understand what drives the different "camps" has
> priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?
> 
> Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them happened
> in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was on vacation, so
> it seems...). By itself, the version number does not indicate concensus
> or stability.
> 
> Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area:
> - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled first in
> one para, no other context required, language. Idea here is to make the
> charter readable for non-expert readers

Well, that's exactly why I wanted the starting point drafts
mentioned in the charter; summarising each draft in one
paragraph is hard.

> - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in various draft
> charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the definition draft 

That is an NMRG document, not part of the chartering discussion.

> and
> some fundamental ones on each of the three solution drafts).

But we were asked to remove them from the charter. Of course,
I welcome technical discussion, when we have a WG to discuss in.

> 
> The two items above I had originally plan to complete last weekend; I
> hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week.
> 
> Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a bigger chance
> to be addressed by a) having a clear description of what the group wants
> to accomplish; 

I believe that the current draft charter is completely clear on
that.

(b) having some actual technical discussion on the
> solution drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts, which - so far - have
> been hard to trace.

That is the work of the WG, not of a chartering discussion,
IMHO. I look forward to it.

   Brian

> 
> Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in
> circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee ... and
> volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important and useful, if
> done right).
> 
> Best regards, Rene
> 
> On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Dimitri,
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this
>>> and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this"
>>>
>> I believe it's covered by the charter.
>> The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
>> more modest
>>
>>> can you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I am
>>> interested in the following part
>>>
>>> /[specific goals]/
>>>
>>> /o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic
>>> functions/
>>>
>>> I have tried to explain during the call that underneath "negotiation"
>>> sits theproblem by which a collection of interacting/agents/ aim at
>>> reaching agreement in order to realize an "intent" is a key aspect of
>>> the work. Renumbering/address management being outside my
>>> scope/interest, how practically the charter does allow me to work in
>>> this item when it states:
>>>
>>> /The working group will initially consider a simple example as a test
>>> case for further work. /
>>>
>> That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>>
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> /o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network/
>>>
>> I agree that this bullet is not described enough.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter
>>> aims defining such component but for instance behind the term
>>> negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is
>>> about base information exchange (more precisely a base description of
>>> what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation object. Thus
>>> missing i) the actual "*_negotiation protocols_* are the set of rules
>>> that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible types of
>>> participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third parties), the
>>> negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation closed), the
>>> events that cause state transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid
>>> accepted), and the valid actions of the participants in particular
>>> states (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and at when)." and
>>> ii) the *_agents' reasoning models_* which provide "the decision
>>> making apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve their
>>> objectives. The sophistication of the model is determined by the
>>> protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the range of
>>> operations that can be performed on it"
>>>
>>> Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be
>>> viewed as a "distributed search through a space of potential
>>> agreements about some joint problem [...] To improve the efficiency
>>> of the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be able to provide
>>> more useful feedback on the proposals it receives than just whether
>>> or not it agrees to them. This feedback can take the form of a
>>> critique (comments on which parts of the proposal the agent likes or
>>> dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative proposal generated in
>>> response to a proposal). From such feedback, the proposer should be
>>> able to generate a proposal which is more likely to lead to an
>>> agreement (if it chooses to do so).
>>>
>>> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On
>>> argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the International
>>> Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.
>>>
>>> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings
>>>  et
>>> al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group
>>> Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 199-215
>>>
>>> Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in
>>> Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck,
>>> Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation
>>> in multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3 (September 1999),
>>> pp.285-289.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -dimitri.
>>>
>>> *From:*Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael
>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
>>> *To:* CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>
>>> Laurent,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the
>>> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on
>>> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think
>>> we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and
>>> Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do
>>> you agree?
>>>
>>> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and
>>> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>>>
>>> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do
>>> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is
>>> this". (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you
>>> raise MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss
>>> the solutions.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
>>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>>> 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>
>>> Dear Michael,
>>>
>>> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>>>
>>> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
>>> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited
>>> to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts,
>>> avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is
>>> what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality
>>> boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).
>>>
>>> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop
>>> features are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization.
>>> these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>>>
>>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>>
>>> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>
>>>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>>>
>>>    
>>> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 
>>>
>>>      
>>>     Michael
>>>
>>>      
>>>     --
>>>
>>>      
>>>      
>>>      
>>>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>>>
>>>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>>>
>>>      
>>>     Attendees
>>>
>>>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent
>>> Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>>>
>>>      
>>>     Notes
>>>
>>>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on
>>> things.
>>>
>>>      
>>>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>>>
>>>     1) Methodology of this working group
>>>
>>>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>>>
>>>      
>>>     2) Selection of use cases
>>>
>>>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the
>>> first use cases?
>>>
>>>      
>>>     3) Common infrastructure components
>>>
>>>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working
>>> on use cases.
>>>
>>>      
>>>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service
>>> agents?
>>>
>>>     Yes. (no objection)
>>>
>>>      
>>>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use
>>> case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>>>
>>>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to
>>> first understand communication layer.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are
>>> different modes. Negotiation for example.
>>>
>>>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal.
>>> But there are many potential solutions.
>>>
>>>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen
>>> one.
>>>
>>>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is
>>> not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>>>
>>>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to
>>> define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to
>>> protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong
>>> track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>>>
>>>     Brian: Completely agree.
>>>
>>>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the
>>> requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>>>
>>>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about
>>> functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate
>>> this into protocols.
>>>
>>>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>>>
>>>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and
>>> expand as needed?
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other
>>> mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The
>>> charter must allow this.
>>>
>>>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional
>>> requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>>>
>>>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements
>>> process.
>>>
>>>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against
>>> architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is
>>> key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for
>>> intserv/diffserv.
>>>
>>>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>>>
>>>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements.
>>> Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set
>>> of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should
>>> select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas.
>>> 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3)
>>> open, on self-healing for example.
>>>
>>>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on.
>>> We don't know them yet.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>>>
>>>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>
>>>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>>>
>>>      
>>>      
>>>      
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>     Anima mailing list
>>>
>>>     Anima@ietf.org  
>>>
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>      
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>>
>>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>>
>>> Advanced Internet Research
>>>
>>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>>
>>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>>
>>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
>>> 
>>>
>>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>>>
>>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Sep 12 13:40:21 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHPza3a1jkbMRoJYk+aCf9E+Yf6gJv9FXXQgABs0wCAAFGqEP///leAgAAh5hA=
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References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413568B.5060801@gmail.com>
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Cc: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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From nobody Fri Sep 12 16:16:55 2014
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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 11:17:05 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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I have updated the wiki to reflect this. The page at
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is
now historical.

   Brian

On 11/09/2014 22:47, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is, let's
> say it, a pain.
> 
> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> Please bookmark https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> 
> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9 from
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter , which I
> consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note that
> only formating changes were inserted between versions
> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> 
> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter text
> in the tool.
> 
> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


From nobody Sat Sep 13 00:06:48 2014
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Subject: [Anima] Documenting the UCAN to ANIMA transition
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Dear all,

See https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ucan/charter/
It now says:

    UCAN was a BoF during the IETF 90.
    The effort was replaced by ANIMA.
    See https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/

Note the state: Replaced

Regards, Benoit




--------------030604040705000104000507
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    Dear all,

    

    See https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ucan/charter/

    It now says:

    

      
UCAN was a BoF during the IETF 90.

        The effort was replaced by ANIMA. 

        See https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/

    

    
Note the state: Replaced

    

    
Regards, Benoit

    

    

    

  


--------------030604040705000104000507--


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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - draft names mentioned or not?
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Dear all,

Let me split the issue.
I inserted the draft names back in the charter at=20
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
As explained in a previous email (Subject "ANIMA status"):

    Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I actually
    believe that pointing to existing work is a plus, to see some
    description behind a single bullet point. Let's imagine that you
    read "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control
    Plane" for the first time (this is what will happen when/if this
    charter is proposed for last-call), I'm sure that would lead to many
    questions or potential wrong assumptions.
    Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply that we
    ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.

I see two tracks from here:
1. We keep the draft names as starting points.

2. We remove the draft names BUT you have to be slightly more verbose on =

what you try to achieve WITHOUT going in the full discussion right now.=20
For example, all Dmitri's questions are valid ...

    Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (li=
sted in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation pl=
atform (if someone can explain what the word platform means in this conte=
xt this would be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios a=
re still hierarchical networks [...] we assume that each network element =
has a hierarchical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NRMG=
 framework document which states "Those nodes communicate with each other=
 through an Autonomic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure co=
mmunications overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent commu=
nication paths and not the other way around), and more importantly it doe=
sn't put at all in perspective the three components of a discovery proces=
s in such systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide agent=
 Y (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) and whe=
ther other agents should access either of them directly or indirectly. Th=
is type of considerations should be part of a document that could be cons=
idered as a starting point.

=2E.. but I wonder whether we should answer all them now, at charter time=
=2E

The real question is: should a future WG be working on this problem?

Regards, Benoit
> Brian:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:25 PM
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> Cc: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>>
>> Two clarifications:
>>
>> On 13/09/2014 07:56, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>> ...
>>> Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"
>>> (listed in the charter)
>> No, we have removed it from the charter according to earlier discussio=
ns.
>> (I'd be glad to respond to your specific comments on the draft, but th=
at
>> is not a chartering issue.)
> In the latest version (as posted by Benoit , I read:
>
> [specific goals]
> The goals of this working group are below. The were selected to accordi=
ng to the
> analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis:
> o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic func=
tions
>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> o Definition of a solution to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> o Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane
>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>
>>> Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopt=
ing
>> a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR
>> application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow th=
is
>> group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
>>
>> IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted - there=
 is
>> nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.
> I don't understand then why my mailbox is full of emails from WG chairs=
 asking for any IPR issue upon WG adoption.
>
>> Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any disclosed IPR =
is a
>> problem or not; that's a consensus matter, not an AD choice.
>>
>>     Brian


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Dear all, 

      

      Let me split the issue.

      I inserted the draft names back in the charter at
      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/

      As explained in a previous email (Subject "ANIMA status"):

      
Regarding the starting points
          mentioning the draft names, I actually believe that pointing
          to existing work is a plus, to see some description behind a
          single bullet point. Let's imagine that you read "Definition
          of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane" for the
          first time (this is what will happen when/if this charter is
          proposed for last-call), I'm sure that would lead to many
          questions or potential wrong assumptions.

          Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply
          that we ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.

      I see two tracks from here:

      1. We keep the draft names as starting points. 

      

      2. We remove the draft names BUT you have to be slightly more
      verbose on what you try to achieve WITHOUT going in the full
      discussion right now. For example, all Dmitri's questions are
      valid ...

      

        
Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (listed in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation platform (if someone can explain what the word platform means in this context this would be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios are still hierarchical networks [...] we assume that each network element has a hierarchical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NRMG framework document which states "Those nodes communicate with each other through an Autonomic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure communications overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent communication paths and not the other way around), and more importantly it doesn't put at all in perspective the three components of a discovery process in such systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) and whether other agents should access
 either of them directly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a document that could be considered as a starting point. 

      

    

    ... but I wonder whether we should answer all them now, at charter
    time. 

    

    The real question is: should a future WG be working on this problem?

    

    Regards, Benoit

    

      
Brian:



      

        
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:25 PM
To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
Cc: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA

Two clarifications:

On 13/09/2014 07:56, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
...


        

          
Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"
(listed in the charter)


        

        
No, we have removed it from the charter according to earlier discussions.
(I'd be glad to respond to your specific comments on the draft, but that
is not a chartering issue.)


      

      
In the latest version (as posted by Benoit <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00266.html>, I read:

[specific goals]
The goals of this working group are below. The were selected to according to the
analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis: 
o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol 
o Definition of a solution to bootstrap a trust infrastructure 
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures 
o Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane 



      

        

          
Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting


        

        
a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR
application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this
group proposing its royalty free protocol ?

IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted - there is
nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.


      

      
I don't understand then why my mailbox is full of emails from WG chairs asking for any IPR issue upon WG adoption. 



      

        
Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any disclosed IPR is a
problem or not; that's a consensus matter, not an AD choice.

   Brian


      

    

    

  


--------------030604060609040304020204--


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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 09:30:18 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - IPR
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Dear all,

>> Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
> IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted -
> there is nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.
> Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any
> disclosed IPR is a problem or not; that's a consensus matter,
> not an AD choice.
Exactly.

I would like to draw to the attention of the 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol, 
draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and 
draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane draft authors that IPR 
declarations are required, and that IPRs might be an important factor in 
a WG creation.
Actually, this message is valid for all draft authors.

Regards, Benoit
>
>     Brian
> .
>


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Benoit Claise , Brian E Carpenter 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - draft names mentioned or not?
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OnA+PC9wcmU+DQo8cHJlPiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBCcmlhbjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wcmU+DQo8L2Js
b2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwv
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--_000_84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454144FR711WXCHMBA07z_--


From nobody Sat Sep 13 04:56:21 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHPza5FISfHnRDUUUaWfN1sjjKXO5v8qv2AgABytQCAAEgVAIABiP2W
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 11:56:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Hi, Dimitri,

For my understanding,  all three drafts are only listed as *start points*. =
It means: 1) they are not WG drafts yet, if there were better alternative a=
ppoaches, the WG could make an open process to choose. 2) they are not tech=
nically mature yet. They are open for any comments/doubts/debates to help t=
hem to become mature in the future. But it is the work for the WG stage, no=
t for the draft charter discussion.

Explanation for the word "platform": it means the protocol itself is indepe=
ndent from the negotiation objectives. It only focuses on message exchange,=
 negotiation process, and etc. It should be able to handle any negotiation =
information/objectives.

Best regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou, Dimitri (D=
imitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: 13 September 2014 3:56
To: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA

Hi Benoit,

The purpose is not to bring a bigger problem but determine its boundaries t=
owards building stronger foundations to the protocol effort. I have tried t=
o explain in  what are the boundaries of a negotiation process, but if I take discov=
ery part for instance, the same type of discussion can be initiated.

Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (listed i=
n the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation platform (=
if someone can explain what the word platform means in this context this wo=
uld be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios are still hie=
rarchical networks [...] we assume that each network element has a hierarch=
ical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NRMG framework docum=
ent which states "Those nodes communicate with each other through an Autono=
mic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure communications overlay=
" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent communication paths and not=
 the other way around), and more importantly it doesn't put at all in persp=
ective the three components of a discovery process in such systems: where i=
s agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y (function/resource), whic=
h knowledge has agent Z (information) and whether other agents should acces=
s either of th!
em direct
 ly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a document=
 that could be considered as a starting point.

Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting a =
document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR applicati=
on to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this group propo=
sing its royalty free protocol ?

Many thanks,
-dimitri.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>
> Hi Dimitri,
> > Benoit:
> >
> >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> >> text in the tool.
> > The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as
> > stable are diverting from
> Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability? I
> don't think so.
> > the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to, in
> particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the thing
> right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the end of the
> first charter term ?"
> To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a timely
> manner"
> >
> > Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a reusabl=
e
> piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial.
> Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known loophole
> protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and never see any wid=
e
> adoption because potential users would need the next use case/feature not
> covered by the protocol, is neither going to help the "industry" nor the
> IETF.
> >
> > An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter
> contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a reusable
> piece of work is currently ongoing (cf.  archive/web/anima/current/msg00242.html>). You would be well advised in
> considering it.
> Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
> I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -dimitri.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit
> >> Claise
> >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> >> To: anima@ietf.org
> >> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is, let's
> >> say it, a pain.
> >>
> >> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> >> Please bookmark https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> >>
> >> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9 from
> >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter , which I
> >> consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
> >> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note
> >> that only formating changes were inserted between versions
> >> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> >>
> >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> >> text in the tool.
> >>
> >> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Anima mailing list
> >> Anima@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > .
> >

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


From nobody Sat Sep 13 05:05:54 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: Benoit Claise , Brian E Carpenter , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - IPR
Thread-Index: AQHPzyShvddO1mWehkeTB+Nl1dU7BZv+9Tsv
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 12:05:38 +0000
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Cc: "Liubing \(Leo\)" , "anima@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - IPR
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Hi, Benoit,

I can confirm that I am aware of NO relevant IPR for all three drafts, so n=
o IPR disclosure is needed from my side. I complied with the IPR rules defi=
ned in BCP78 and BCP79.

Regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Benoit Claise [bclaise@ci=
sco.com]
Sent: 13 September 2014 15:30
To: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - IPR

Dear all,

>> Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting=
 a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR applic=
ation to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this group pr=
oposing its royalty free protocol ?
> IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted -
> there is nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.
> Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any
> disclosed IPR is a problem or not; that's a consensus matter,
> not an AD choice.
Exactly.

I would like to draw to the attention of the
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol,
draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and
draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane draft authors that IPR
declarations are required, and that IPRs might be an important factor in
a WG creation.
Actually, this message is valid for all draft authors.

Regards, Benoit
>
>     Brian
> .
>

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


From nobody Sat Sep 13 05:18:08 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Sheng Jiang , Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHPza3a1jkbMRoJYk+aCf9E+Yf6gJv9FXXQgABs0wCAAFGqEIABApKAgAAhv8A=
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Hi,

o) We don't need to list documents to explain / characterize a "starting po=
int". I have made concrete suggestions to either explain them in the charte=
r or NRMG references (as widely used to write it down). 

o) The point has been mentioned several times on this list, your individual=
 submission assumes a single protocol for both functionality (negotiation a=
nd discovery) whereas it is far from proven this is the right decomposition=
; hence, the right "starting point".=20

o) If as of today (charter writing time) there are known technical issues/c=
oncerns in some these documents (the notion of negotiation process this doc=
ument uses is far from being satisfactory as already explained on this list=
 cf.  , t=
he same for discovery process cf. ), why should they be considered as starting point=
 ? =20

Thanks,
-dimitri.=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:56 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Hi, Dimitri,
>=20
> For my understanding,  all three drafts are only listed as *start points*=
.
> It means: 1) they are not WG drafts yet, if there were better alternative
> appoaches, the WG could make an open process to choose. 2) they are not
> technically mature yet. They are open for any comments/doubts/debates to
> help them to become mature in the future. But it is the work for the WG
> stage, not for the draft charter discussion.
>=20
> Explanation for the word "platform": it means the protocol itself is
> independent from the negotiation objectives. It only focuses on message
> exchange, negotiation process, and etc. It should be able to handle any
> negotiation information/objectives.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
> ________________________________________
> From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou, Dimitri
> (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: 13 September 2014 3:56
> To: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Hi Benoit,
>=20
> The purpose is not to bring a bigger problem but determine its boundaries
> towards building stronger foundations to the protocol effort. I have trie=
d
> to explain in  archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> what are the boundaries of a
> negotiation process, but if I take discovery part for instance, the same
> type of discussion can be initiated.
>=20
> Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (listed
> in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation platfor=
m
> (if someone can explain what the word platform means in this context this
> would be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios are still
> hierarchical networks [...] we assume that each network element has a
> hierarchical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NRMG
> framework document which states "Those nodes communicate with each other
> through an Autonomic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure
> communications overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent
> communication paths and not the other way around), and more importantly i=
t
> doesn't put at all in perspective the three components of a discovery
> process in such systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide
> agent Y (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) an=
d
> whether other agents should access either of th!
> em direct
>  ly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a
> document that could be considered as a starting point.
>=20
> Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting =
a
> document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR
> application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this
> group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
>=20
> Many thanks,
> -dimitri.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 PM
> > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi Dimitri,
> > > Benoit:
> > >
> > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> > >> text in the tool.
> > > The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as
> > > stable are diverting from
> > Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability? I
> > don't think so.
> > > the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to, in
> > particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the thing
> > right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the end of the
> > first charter term ?"
> > To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a
> > timely manner"
> > >
> > > Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a
> > > reusable
> > piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial.
> > Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known
> > loophole protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and never
> > see any wide adoption because potential users would need the next use
> > case/feature not covered by the protocol, is neither going to help the
> > "industry" nor the IETF.
> > >
> > > An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter
> > contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a
> > reusable piece of work is currently ongoing (cf.
> > ).
> > You would be well advised in considering it.
> > Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
> > I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.
> >
> > Regards, Benoit
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -dimitri.
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit
> > >> Claise
> > >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> > >> To: anima@ietf.org
> > >> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > >>
> > >> Dear all,
> > >>
> > >> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> > >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is,
> > >> let's say it, a pain.
> > >>
> > >> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> > >> Please bookmark
> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> > >>
> > >> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9
> > >> from http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter ,
> > >> which I consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
> > >> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note
> > >> that only formating changes were inserted between versions
> > >> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> > >>
> > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> > >> text in the tool.
> > >>
> > >> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Anima mailing list
> > >> Anima@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > > .
> > >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Sat Sep 13 05:21:35 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Benoit Claise , Brian E Carpenter 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - draft names mentioned or not?
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Hi, Benoit,



Thanks for your concrete suggestions. we will apply them.



One explanation: Michael and I did discuss the different level of discovery=
 in Toronto. In ACP, it needs discovery mechanism to find other autonomic n=
odes. This needs discovery mechanism in protocol level. The current ACP dra=
ft does not clearly define or choose a certain protocol for this yet. It is=
 definitely possible to use the generic discovery and negotiation protocol,=
 that may be produced by ANIMA, for ACP. We did say we would do that in the=
 future.



Best regards,



Sheng



________________________________
From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou, Dimitri (D=
imitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: 13 September 2014 19:11
To: Benoit Claise; Brian E Carpenter
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - draft names men=
tioned or not?

Hello,

In order to be more verbose without constraining subsequent work/developmen=
t, here below you will find three concrete suggestions:


1.  For the ACP, a description is provided in http://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03 :



Autonomic Control Plane: Allows the node to communicate with other
      autonomic nodes.  Autonomic functions such as intent distribution,
      feedback loops, discovery mechanisms, etc, use the autonomic
      control plane.  The autonomic control plane can run inband, over a
      configured VPN, over a self-managing overlay network, as described
      in [I-D.behringer-autonomic-control-plane], or over a traditional
      out of band network.  Security is a requirement for the Autonomic
      Control Plane, which can be bootstrapped by a mechanism as
      described in [I-D.pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures].



It reads as the ACP provides for the communication means (channels, interfa=
ce, etc.). However, there is an important point to be clarified: this defin=
ition states that autonomic functions such as discovery mechanisms use the =
common infrastructure components but the latter (following the charter) als=
o includes a discovery process/mechanism:


[main goal]
The main goal of the ANIMA WG is therefore to develop common infrastructure=
 components for distributed functions. The infrastructure should be capable=
 of providing the following services to those distributed functions:
o a common way to identify nodes
o a common security model
o a discovery mechanism
o [=85]


=3D>  Altogether, it reads as if we have two discovery mechanisms (the same=
 for the negotiation process). I have suggested to simplify this by mention=
ing a =93use relationship=94 between the service agents (and when needed wi=
th other components) and the discovery process and leave the discussion as =
to which level (cf. fig 1 of  it belongs/decomposes when this group will =
put the pieces together at later stage.


2.  Concerning the description of discovery process, and following  I suggest to use=
 the following description either in the charter or in the NMRG doc=92s it =
refers to:



Discovery is the mechanism used by agents to determine: where is a given (s=
et of) agent(s) located, what can a given (set of) agent(s) perform/execute=
 (function) or provide (resource), which knowledge/information can a given =
set of agent(s) deliver; inter-agent exchanges for discovery purposes can o=
perate either directly (without involving a third party) or indirectly (e.g=
., by means of a directory or a dictionary) and independently of the underl=
ying routing topology.


Note_1: once the point 1 is clarified, we can certainly extend its applicab=
ility to other elements (components) of the autonomic plane.

Note_2: we could refine with spatial scope (i.e. single admin domain or not=
) but don=92t want to be prescriptive in that respect.





3.  Concerning the description of negotiation process and following  I suggest to us=
e the following description either in the charter or in the NMRG doc=92s it=
 refers to:

Negotiation enables groups of agents to reach mutual agreement regarding so=
me joint goal or problem by means of interactive search through a space of =
potential agreements. This interactive mechanism comprises negotiation prot=
ocols : the set of rules that govern the interaction,  negotiation objects =
: the range of issues over which agreement must be reached and allowable op=
erations/changes on these objects, and agents=92 reasoning models : the dec=
ision making procedures by which participants attempt to achieve their goal=
s. The sophistication of the model is determined by the protocol used, the =
nature of the negotiation object, and the range of operations that can be p=
erformed on it.

Note_1: same as note 1 above for point 2.

Note_2: as I understand we=92d like to progress step-by-step we can leave r=
easoning models with lower priority at first stage.


May be similar short description can be provided for the key infrastructure=
 bootstrap (following draft-pritikin ?)


Regards,
-dimitri.

From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 9:24 AM
To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Brian E Carpenter
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - draft names men=
tioned or not?

Dear all,

Let me split the issue.
I inserted the draft names back in the charter at https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
As explained in a previous email (Subject "ANIMA status"):
Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I actually believ=
e that pointing to existing work is a plus, to see some description behind =
a single bullet point. Let's imagine that you read "Definition of a solutio=
n for a separated Autonomic Control Plane" for the first time (this is what=
 will happen when/if this charter is proposed for last-call), I'm sure that=
 would lead to many questions or potential wrong assumptions.
Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply that we ask yo=
u to adopt those document as WG items now.
I see two tracks from here:
1. We keep the draft names as starting points.

2. We remove the draft names BUT you have to be slightly more verbose on wh=
at you try to achieve WITHOUT going in the full discussion right now. For e=
xample, all Dmitri's questions are valid ...

Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (listed i=
n the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation platform (=
if someone can explain what the word platform means in this context this wo=
uld be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios are still hie=
rarchical networks [...] we assume that each network element has a hierarch=
ical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NRMG framework docum=
ent which states "Those nodes communicate with each other through an Autono=
mic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure communications overlay=
" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent communication paths and not=
 the other way around), and more importantly it doesn't put at all in persp=
ective the three components of a discovery process in such systems: where i=
s agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y (function/resource), whic=
h knowledge has agent Z (information) and whether other agents should

  access

 either of them directly or indirectly. This type of considerations should =
be part of a document that could be considered as a starting point.
... but I wonder whether we should answer all them now, at charter time.

The real question is: should a future WG be working on this problem?

Regards, Benoit


Brian:



-----Original Message-----

From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:25 PM

To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)

Cc: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA



Two clarifications:



On 13/09/2014 07:56, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:

...

Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"

(listed in the charter)



No, we have removed it from the charter according to earlier discussions.

(I'd be glad to respond to your specific comments on the draft, but that

is not a chartering issue.)



In the latest version (as posted by Benoit , I read:



[specific goals]

The goals of this working group are below. The were selected to according t=
o the

analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis:

o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic function=
s

   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol

o Definition of a solution to bootstrap a trust infrastructure

   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures

o Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane

   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane



Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting

a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR

application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this

group proposing its royalty free protocol ?



IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted - there is

nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.



I don't understand then why my mailbox is full of emails from WG chairs ask=
ing for any IPR issue upon WG adoption.



Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any disclosed IPR is a

problem or not; that's a consensus matter, not an AD choice.



   Brian


--_000_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAD0NKGEML512MBSchi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable










Hi, Benoit,


 


Thanks for your concrete suggestions. we will apply them.


 


One explanation: Michael and I did discuss the different level of discov=
ery in Toronto. In ACP, it needs discovery mechanism to find other autonomi=
c nodes. This needs discovery mechanism in protocol level. The current ACP =
draft does not clearly define or
 choose a certain protocol for this yet. It is definitely possible to =
use the generic discovery and negotiation protocol, that may be produced&nb=
sp;by ANIMA, for ACP. We did say we would do that in the future.


 


Best regards,


 


Sheng


 




From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on be=
half of Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-luc=
ent.com]

Sent: 13 September 2014 19:11

To: Benoit Claise; Brian E Carpenter

Cc: anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - draft na=
mes mentioned or not?












Hello,


 


In order to be more verbose without constraining subseque=
nt work/development, here below you will find three concrete suggestions:


 


1.  For the ACP, a description is provided in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-defini=
tions-03 : 


 


Autonomic Control Plane: Allows th=
e node to communicate with other


    =
;  autonomic nodes.  Autonomic functions such as intent distribut=
ion,


    =
;  feedback loops,
discovery mechanisms, etc, use the autonomic


    =
;  control plane.  The autonomic control plane can run inband, ov=
er a


    =
;  configured VPN, over a self-managing overlay network, as described<=
/span>


    =
;  in [I-D.behringer-autonomic-control-plane],
 or over a traditional


    =
;  out of band network.  Security is a requirement for the Autono=
mic


    =
;  Control Plane, which can be bootstrapped by a mechanism as

    =
;  described in [I-D.pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures].


 


It reads as the ACP provides for t=
he communication means (channels, interface, etc.). However, there is an im=
portant point to be clarified: this definition states that autonomic functi=
ons such as discovery mechanisms use the common infrastructure compo=
nents but the latter (following the charter) also includes a discovery proc=
ess/mechanism:


 


[main goal]

The main goal of the ANIMA WG is therefore to develop common infrastructure=
 components for distributed functions. The infrastructure should be capable=
 of providing the following services to those distributed functions: 

o a common way to identify nodes

o a common security model

o a discovery mechanism


o [=85]


 


=F0 
Altogether, it reads as if we have
two discovery mechanisms (the same for the negotiation proces=
s). I have suggested to simplify this by mentioning a =93use relationship=
=94 between the service agents (and when needed with other components) and =
the discovery process and leave the discussion
 as to which level (cf. fig 1 of <http://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03>=
;
 it belongs/decomposes when this group will put the pieces together at late=
r stage.


 


2. 
Concerning the description of discovery pr=
ocess, and following <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current=
/msg00268.html> I suggest to use the
 following description either in the charter or in the NMRG doc=92s it refe=
rs to: 



 


Discovery is the mechanism used by agents to =
determine: where is a given (set of) agent(s) located, what can a given (se=
t of) agent(s) perform/execute (function) or provide (resource), which know=
ledge/information can a given set
 of agent(s) deliver; inter-agent exchanges for discovery purposes can oper=
ate either directly (without involving a third party) or indirectly (e.g., =
by means of a directory or a dictionary) and independently of the underlyin=
g routing topology.


 


Note_1: once the point 1 is clarified, w=
e can certainly extend its applicability to other elements (components) of =
the autonomic plane.


 


Note_2: we could refine with spatial sco=
pe (i.e. single admin domain or not) but don=92t want to be prescriptive in=
 that respect.


 


 


3. 
Concerning the description of negotiation =
process and following <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/curren=
t/msg00261.html> I suggest to use the
 following description either in the charter or in the NMRG doc=92s it refe=
rs to: 



 


Negotiation enables groups of agents
to reach mutual a=
greement regarding some joint goal or problem
by means of inter=
active search through a space of potential agreements. This interactive mec=
hanism
comprises nego=
tiation protocols
: the set of rules that govern the interaction,  negotiation ob=
jects : 
the range of issues over which agreement must be reached and allowable oper=
ations/changes on these objects, and
agents=92 reasoning models : the decision making procedures by which=
 participants attempt to achieve
their goals. The sophistication of the model is determined by the proto=
col used, the nature of the
negotiation object, and the range of operations that can be performed o=
n it. 



 


Note_1: same as note 1 above for point 2=
.


 


Note_2: as I understand we=92d like to p=
rogress step-by-step we can leave reasoning models with lower priority at f=
irst stage.


 


 


May be similar short description can be =
provided for the key infrastructure bootstrap (following draft-pritikin ?)<=
/span>


 


&nb=
sp;


Regards,


-dimitri.


 








From: Benoit C=
laise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]


Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 9:24 AM

To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Brian E Carpenter

Cc: anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - draft na=
mes mentioned or not?






 




Dear all, 



Let me split the issue.

I inserted the draft names back in the charter at 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/

As explained in a previous email (Subject "ANIMA status"):


Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft n=
ames, I actually believe that pointing to existing work is a plus, to see s=
ome description behind a single bullet point. Let's imagine that you read &=
quot;Definition of a solution for a separated
 Autonomic Control Plane" for the first time (this is what will happen=
 when/if this charter is proposed for last-call), I'm sure that would lead =
to many questions or potential wrong assumptions.

Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply that we ask yo=
u to adopt those document as WG items now.


I see two tracks from here:

1. We keep the draft names as starting points. 



2. We remove the draft names BUT you have to be slightly more verbose on wh=
at you try to achieve WITHOUT going in the full discussion right now. For e=
xample, all Dmitri's questions are valid ...


Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol&=
quot; (listed in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotia=
tion platform (if someone can explain what the word platform means in this =
context this would be really helpful), it assumes "the main target sce=
narios are still hierarchical networks [...] we assume that each network el=
ement has a hierarchical superior" (how does such constraint relate to=
 the NRMG framework document which states "Those nodes communicate wit=
h each other through an Autonomic Control Plane which provides a robust and=
 secure communications overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inte=
r-agent communication paths and not the other way around), and more importa=
ntly it doesn't put at all in perspective the three components of a discove=
ry process in such systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provid=
e agent Y (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) an=
d whether other agents should


  access


 either of them directly or indirectly. This type of considerations sh=
ould be part of a document that could be considered as a starting point. 



... but I wonder whether we should answer all them n=
ow, at charter time.




The real question is: should a future WG be working on this problem?



Regards, Benoit






Brian:


 




-----Original Message-----


From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]


Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:25 PM


To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)


Cc: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA


 


Two clarifications:


 


On 13/09/2014 07:56, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:


...




Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol&=
quot;


(listed in the charter)




 


No, we have removed it from the charter according to earlier discussio=
ns.


(I'd be glad to respond to your specific comments on the draft, but th=
at


is not a chartering issue.)




 


In the latest version (as posted by Benoit <htt=
p://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00266.html>, I re=
ad:


 


[specific goals]


The goals of this working group are below. The were selected to accord=
ing to the


analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis: 


o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic fun=
ctions


   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol <=
/pre>

o Definition of a solution to bootstrap a trust infrastructure 


   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfr=
astructures 


o Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane

   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane <=
/pre>

 






Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopti=
ng




a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR

application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow th=
is


group proposing its royalty free protocol ?


 


IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted - there=
 is


nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.




 


I don't understand then why my mailbox is full of emails from WG chair=
s asking for any IPR issue upon WG adoption. 


 




Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any disclosed IPR =
is a


problem or not; that's a consensus matter, not an AD choice.


 


   Brian




 














--_000_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAD0NKGEML512MBSchi_--


From nobody Sat Sep 13 05:40:19 2014
Return-Path: 
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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHPza5FISfHnRDUUUaWfN1sjjKXO5v8qv2AgABytQCAAEgVAIABiP2W//+JRwCAAIeiTg==
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 12:40:06 +0000
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References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Hi, Dimitri,

Firstly, you jump too fast into some technical discussions which should be =
made in the WG stage, rather than draft charter stage.

Secondly, I could agree with you that so far the proposed protocol is not g=
eneric enough to solve all the requirements. We will keep working on this. =
Your comments are very helpful for us to make it better. We really apprecia=
te your comments and participation. This is the best efforts we have done s=
o far. It is fair to list it as *start point*. You could NOT ask a start po=
int to be mature or perfect. We are not even sure there will be a protocol =
generic enough to suit all scenarios. But this does not mean we should stop=
 working.=20

Best regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucen=
t.com]
Sent: 13 September 2014 20:18
To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA

Hi,

o) We don't need to list documents to explain / characterize a "starting po=
int". I have made concrete suggestions to either explain them in the charte=
r or NRMG references (as widely used to write it down). 

o) The point has been mentioned several times on this list, your individual=
 submission assumes a single protocol for both functionality (negotiation a=
nd discovery) whereas it is far from proven this is the right decomposition=
; hence, the right "starting point".

o) If as of today (charter writing time) there are known technical issues/c=
oncerns in some these documents (the notion of negotiation process this doc=
ument uses is far from being satisfactory as already explained on this list=
 cf.  , t=
he same for discovery process cf. ), why should they be considered as starting point=
 ?

Thanks,
-dimitri.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:56 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>
> Hi, Dimitri,
>
> For my understanding,  all three drafts are only listed as *start points*=
.
> It means: 1) they are not WG drafts yet, if there were better alternative
> appoaches, the WG could make an open process to choose. 2) they are not
> technically mature yet. They are open for any comments/doubts/debates to
> help them to become mature in the future. But it is the work for the WG
> stage, not for the draft charter discussion.
>
> Explanation for the word "platform": it means the protocol itself is
> independent from the negotiation objectives. It only focuses on message
> exchange, negotiation process, and etc. It should be able to handle any
> negotiation information/objectives.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
> ________________________________________
> From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou, Dimitri
> (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: 13 September 2014 3:56
> To: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
> The purpose is not to bring a bigger problem but determine its boundaries
> towards building stronger foundations to the protocol effort. I have trie=
d
> to explain in  archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> what are the boundaries of a
> negotiation process, but if I take discovery part for instance, the same
> type of discussion can be initiated.
>
> Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (listed
> in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation platfor=
m
> (if someone can explain what the word platform means in this context this
> would be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios are still
> hierarchical networks [...] we assume that each network element has a
> hierarchical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NRMG
> framework document which states "Those nodes communicate with each other
> through an Autonomic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure
> communications overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent
> communication paths and not the other way around), and more importantly i=
t
> doesn't put at all in perspective the three components of a discovery
> process in such systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide
> agent Y (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) an=
d
> whether other agents should access either of th!
> em direct
>  ly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a
> document that could be considered as a starting point.
>
> Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting =
a
> document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR
> application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this
> group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
>
> Many thanks,
> -dimitri.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 PM
> > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi Dimitri,
> > > Benoit:
> > >
> > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> > >> text in the tool.
> > > The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as
> > > stable are diverting from
> > Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability? I
> > don't think so.
> > > the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to, in
> > particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the thing
> > right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the end of the
> > first charter term ?"
> > To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a
> > timely manner"
> > >
> > > Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a
> > > reusable
> > piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial.
> > Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known
> > loophole protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and never
> > see any wide adoption because potential users would need the next use
> > case/feature not covered by the protocol, is neither going to help the
> > "industry" nor the IETF.
> > >
> > > An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter
> > contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a
> > reusable piece of work is currently ongoing (cf.
> > ).
> > You would be well advised in considering it.
> > Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
> > I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.
> >
> > Regards, Benoit
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -dimitri.
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit
> > >> Claise
> > >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> > >> To: anima@ietf.org
> > >> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > >>
> > >> Dear all,
> > >>
> > >> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> > >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is,
> > >> let's say it, a pain.
> > >>
> > >> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> > >> Please bookmark
> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> > >>
> > >> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9
> > >> from http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter ,
> > >> which I consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
> > >> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note
> > >> that only formating changes were inserted between versions
> > >> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> > >>
> > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> > >> text in the tool.
> > >>
> > >> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Anima mailing list
> > >> Anima@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > > .
> > >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


From nobody Sat Sep 13 12:08:54 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Sheng Jiang , Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHPza3a1jkbMRoJYk+aCf9E+Yf6gJv9FXXQgABs0wCAAFGqEIABApKAgAAhv8D//+qLAIAAIfHg
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References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAF5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Hello,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 2:40 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Hi, Dimitri,
>=20
> Firstly, you jump too fast into some technical discussions which should b=
e
> made in the WG stage, rather than draft charter stage.

I don't think that a statement like "Please, drop the document from the cha=
rter" without any technical argument would be appropriate.

> Secondly, I could agree with you that so far the proposed protocol is not
> generic enough to solve all the requirements. We will keep working on
> this. Your comments are very helpful for us to make it better. We really
> appreciate your comments and participation. This is the best efforts we
> have done so far. It is fair to list it as *start point*. You could NOT
> ask a start point to be mature or perfect. We are not even sure there wil=
l
> be a protocol generic enough to suit all scenarios. But this does not mea=
n
> we should stop working.

Actually i) I start to think that instead of indicating a fixed starting po=
int, if it wouldn't be more appropriate to document source(s) of info helpi=
ng guidance (such as early reviews), this would help keeping focus (fixing =
a starting point doesn't give such info), ii) by trying to impose a startin=
g point with this document (for which I have not seen any objective argumen=
t showing we can't progress without it) may lead to the inverse effect than=
 the initial objective, iii) submissions this WG is calling for may start f=
rom a different but stronger basis than this starting point (this would mak=
e later consensus even more complex to reach).

Thanks,
-dimitri.

> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
> ________________________________________
> From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: 13 September 2014 20:18
> To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> o) We don't need to list documents to explain / characterize a "starting
> point". I have made concrete suggestions to either explain them in the
> charter or NRMG references (as widely used to write it down).
> 
>=20
> o) The point has been mentioned several times on this list, your
> individual submission assumes a single protocol for both functionality
> (negotiation and discovery) whereas it is far from proven this is the
> right decomposition; hence, the right "starting point".
>=20
> o) If as of today (charter writing time) there are known technical
> issues/concerns in some these documents (the notion of negotiation proces=
s
> this document uses is far from being satisfactory as already explained on
> this list cf.  archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> , the same for discovery process
> cf. ),
> why should they be considered as starting point ?
>=20
> Thanks,
> -dimitri.
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:56 PM
> > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi, Dimitri,
> >
> > For my understanding,  all three drafts are only listed as *start
> points*.
> > It means: 1) they are not WG drafts yet, if there were better
> > alternative appoaches, the WG could make an open process to choose. 2)
> > they are not technically mature yet. They are open for any
> > comments/doubts/debates to help them to become mature in the future.
> > But it is the work for the WG stage, not for the draft charter
> discussion.
> >
> > Explanation for the word "platform": it means the protocol itself is
> > independent from the negotiation objectives. It only focuses on
> > message exchange, negotiation process, and etc. It should be able to
> > handle any negotiation information/objectives.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sheng
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou,
> > Dimitri
> > (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: 13 September 2014 3:56
> > To: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi Benoit,
> >
> > The purpose is not to bring a bigger problem but determine its
> > boundaries towards building stronger foundations to the protocol
> > effort. I have tried to explain in  > archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> what are the boundaries of a
> > negotiation process, but if I take discovery part for instance, the
> > same type of discussion can be initiated.
> >
> > Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"
> > (listed in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic
> > negotiation platform (if someone can explain what the word platform
> > means in this context this would be really helpful), it assumes "the
> > main target scenarios are still hierarchical networks [...] we assume
> > that each network element has a hierarchical superior" (how does such
> > constraint relate to the NRMG framework document which states "Those
> > nodes communicate with each other through an Autonomic Control Plane
> > which provides a robust and secure communications overlay" which reads
> > plane needs drive the inter-agent communication paths and not the
> > other way around), and more importantly it doesn't put at all in
> > perspective the three components of a discovery process in such
> > systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y
> > (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) and
> whether other agents should access either of th!
> > em direct
> >  ly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a
> > document that could be considered as a starting point.
> >
> > Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once
> > adopting a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of
> > any IPR application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you
> > allow this group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> > -dimitri.
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 PM
> > > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > >
> > > Hi Dimitri,
> > > > Benoit:
> > > >
> > > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> > > >> text in the tool.
> > > > The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as
> > > > stable are diverting from
> > > Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability?
> > > I don't think so.
> > > > the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to,
> > > > in
> > > particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the
> > > thing right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the
> > > end of the first charter term ?"
> > > To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a
> > > timely manner"
> > > >
> > > > Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a
> > > > reusable
> > > piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial.
> > > Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known
> > > loophole protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and
> > > never see any wide adoption because potential users would need the
> > > next use case/feature not covered by the protocol, is neither going
> > > to help the "industry" nor the IETF.
> > > >
> > > > An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter
> > > contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a
> > > reusable piece of work is currently ongoing (cf.
> > > ).
> > > You would be well advised in considering it.
> > > Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
> > > I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.
> > >
> > > Regards, Benoit
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > -dimitri.
> > > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit
> > > >> Claise
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> > > >> To: anima@ietf.org
> > > >> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > > >>
> > > >> Dear all,
> > > >>
> > > >> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> > > >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is,
> > > >> let's say it, a pain.
> > > >>
> > > >> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> > > >> Please bookmark
> > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> > > >>
> > > >> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9
> > > >> from http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter
> > > >> , which I consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
> > > >> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note
> > > >> that only formating changes were inserted between versions
> > > >> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> > > >>
> > > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> > > >> text in the tool.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Anima mailing list
> > > >> Anima@ietf.org
> > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > > > .
> > > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Sat Sep 13 16:55:27 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHPza5FISfHnRDUUUaWfN1sjjKXO5v8qv2AgABytQCAAEgVAIABiP2W//+JRwCAAIeiTv//6x4AgADTLFE=
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 23:55:13 +0000
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References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAF5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234545AE@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Dimitri,

You missed the right discussion point, again. Like Benoit asked: the real q=
uestion is: should a future WG be working on discovery and negotiation. If =
the concensus is no, we should, of course, drop this problem and the start =
point document. If the concensus is yes, we list the existing proposal as a=
 start point and keep working to make it better. My understanding so far, n=
obody, including you, say no to the problem. After then, again, as I explai=
ned before, the start point documents are not WG drafts yet, if there were =
better alternative appoaches, the WG would make an open process to choose. =
List of  start points only means we have concrete proposals. It is much bet=
ter than empty, or start from zero.

Regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucen=
t.com]
Sent: 14 September 2014 3:08
To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA

Hello,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 2:40 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>
> Hi, Dimitri,
>
> Firstly, you jump too fast into some technical discussions which should b=
e
> made in the WG stage, rather than draft charter stage.

I don't think that a statement like "Please, drop the document from the cha=
rter" without any technical argument would be appropriate.

> Secondly, I could agree with you that so far the proposed protocol is not
> generic enough to solve all the requirements. We will keep working on
> this. Your comments are very helpful for us to make it better. We really
> appreciate your comments and participation. This is the best efforts we
> have done so far. It is fair to list it as *start point*. You could NOT
> ask a start point to be mature or perfect. We are not even sure there wil=
l
> be a protocol generic enough to suit all scenarios. But this does not mea=
n
> we should stop working.

Actually i) I start to think that instead of indicating a fixed starting po=
int, if it wouldn't be more appropriate to document source(s) of info helpi=
ng guidance (such as early reviews), this would help keeping focus (fixing =
a starting point doesn't give such info), ii) by trying to impose a startin=
g point with this document (for which I have not seen any objective argumen=
t showing we can't progress without it) may lead to the inverse effect than=
 the initial objective, iii) submissions this WG is calling for may start f=
rom a different but stronger basis than this starting point (this would mak=
e later consensus even more complex to reach).

Thanks,
-dimitri.

> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
> ________________________________________
> From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: 13 September 2014 20:18
> To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>
> Hi,
>
> o) We don't need to list documents to explain / characterize a "starting
> point". I have made concrete suggestions to either explain them in the
> charter or NRMG references (as widely used to write it down).
> 
>
> o) The point has been mentioned several times on this list, your
> individual submission assumes a single protocol for both functionality
> (negotiation and discovery) whereas it is far from proven this is the
> right decomposition; hence, the right "starting point".
>
> o) If as of today (charter writing time) there are known technical
> issues/concerns in some these documents (the notion of negotiation proces=
s
> this document uses is far from being satisfactory as already explained on
> this list cf.  archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> , the same for discovery process
> cf. ),
> why should they be considered as starting point ?
>
> Thanks,
> -dimitri.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:56 PM
> > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi, Dimitri,
> >
> > For my understanding,  all three drafts are only listed as *start
> points*.
> > It means: 1) they are not WG drafts yet, if there were better
> > alternative appoaches, the WG could make an open process to choose. 2)
> > they are not technically mature yet. They are open for any
> > comments/doubts/debates to help them to become mature in the future.
> > But it is the work for the WG stage, not for the draft charter
> discussion.
> >
> > Explanation for the word "platform": it means the protocol itself is
> > independent from the negotiation objectives. It only focuses on
> > message exchange, negotiation process, and etc. It should be able to
> > handle any negotiation information/objectives.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sheng
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou,
> > Dimitri
> > (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: 13 September 2014 3:56
> > To: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi Benoit,
> >
> > The purpose is not to bring a bigger problem but determine its
> > boundaries towards building stronger foundations to the protocol
> > effort. I have tried to explain in  > archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> what are the boundaries of a
> > negotiation process, but if I take discovery part for instance, the
> > same type of discussion can be initiated.
> >
> > Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"
> > (listed in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic
> > negotiation platform (if someone can explain what the word platform
> > means in this context this would be really helpful), it assumes "the
> > main target scenarios are still hierarchical networks [...] we assume
> > that each network element has a hierarchical superior" (how does such
> > constraint relate to the NRMG framework document which states "Those
> > nodes communicate with each other through an Autonomic Control Plane
> > which provides a robust and secure communications overlay" which reads
> > plane needs drive the inter-agent communication paths and not the
> > other way around), and more importantly it doesn't put at all in
> > perspective the three components of a discovery process in such
> > systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y
> > (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) and
> whether other agents should access either of th!
> > em direct
> >  ly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a
> > document that could be considered as a starting point.
> >
> > Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once
> > adopting a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of
> > any IPR application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you
> > allow this group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> > -dimitri.
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 PM
> > > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > >
> > > Hi Dimitri,
> > > > Benoit:
> > > >
> > > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> > > >> text in the tool.
> > > > The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as
> > > > stable are diverting from
> > > Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability?
> > > I don't think so.
> > > > the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to,
> > > > in
> > > particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the
> > > thing right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the
> > > end of the first charter term ?"
> > > To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a
> > > timely manner"
> > > >
> > > > Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a
> > > > reusable
> > > piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial.
> > > Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known
> > > loophole protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and
> > > never see any wide adoption because potential users would need the
> > > next use case/feature not covered by the protocol, is neither going
> > > to help the "industry" nor the IETF.
> > > >
> > > > An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter
> > > contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a
> > > reusable piece of work is currently ongoing (cf.
> > > ).
> > > You would be well advised in considering it.
> > > Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
> > > I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.
> > >
> > > Regards, Benoit
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > -dimitri.
> > > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit
> > > >> Claise
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> > > >> To: anima@ietf.org
> > > >> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > > >>
> > > >> Dear all,
> > > >>
> > > >> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> > > >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is,
> > > >> let's say it, a pain.
> > > >>
> > > >> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> > > >> Please bookmark
> > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> > > >>
> > > >> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9
> > > >> from http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter
> > > >> , which I consider like the more stable one at this point in time.
> > > >> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab. Note
> > > >> that only formating changes were inserted between versions
> > > >> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> > > >>
> > > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the charter
> > > >> text in the tool.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Anima mailing list
> > > >> Anima@ietf.org
> > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > > > .
> > > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


From nobody Sat Sep 13 17:54:50 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Sheng Jiang , Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHPza3a1jkbMRoJYk+aCf9E+Yf6gJv9FXXQgABs0wCAAFGqEIABApKAgAAhv8D//+qLAIAAIfHggACar4CAACHZkA==
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References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAF5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234545AE@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF375F4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org
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Jiang:

You wrote:
> If the concensus is yes, we list the existing
> proposal as a start point and keep working to make it better.=20

This statement is incorrect as two tracks have been listed by Benoit (see <=
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00274.html>) and belo=
w excerpt:

"I see two tracks from here:
1. We keep the draft names as starting points.=20

2. We remove the draft names BUT you have to be slightly more verbose on wh=
at you try to achieve WITHOUT going in the full discussion right now. For e=
xample, all Dmitri's questions are valid ..."

I have explained how to cope with track 2 in case this would be the blockin=
g point in moving in that direction. Cf.  -- note: I have been delving in your docum=
ent to see which definition you use for discovery and couldn't find any. Ev=
en worse the document confuses discovery and negotiation process.

I have explained technically why you document is not suited as starting poi=
nt and why initiating the work from the wrong starting point will lead to m=
ore problems than be helpful.

Finally, repeating the same kind of argument as you do since two weeks, rei=
nforces the problem listed in my previous post "submissions this WG is call=
ing for may start from a different but stronger basis than this starting po=
int (this would make later consensus even more complex to reach)".=20

Thanks,
-dimitri.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 1:55 AM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Dimitri,
>=20
> You missed the right discussion point, again. Like Benoit asked: the real
> question is: should a future WG be working on discovery and negotiation.
> If the concensus is no, we should, of course, drop this problem and the
> start point document. If the concensus is yes, we list the existing
> proposal as a start point and keep working to make it better. My
> understanding so far, nobody, including you, say no to the problem. After
> then, again, as I explained before, the start point documents are not WG
> drafts yet, if there were better alternative appoaches, the WG would make
> an open process to choose. List of  start points only means we have
> concrete proposals. It is much better than empty, or start from zero.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Sheng
> ________________________________________
> From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: 14 September 2014 3:08
> To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 2:40 PM
> > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi, Dimitri,
> >
> > Firstly, you jump too fast into some technical discussions which
> > should be made in the WG stage, rather than draft charter stage.
>=20
> I don't think that a statement like "Please, drop the document from the
> charter" without any technical argument would be appropriate.
>=20
> > Secondly, I could agree with you that so far the proposed protocol is
> > not generic enough to solve all the requirements. We will keep working
> > on this. Your comments are very helpful for us to make it better. We
> > really appreciate your comments and participation. This is the best
> > efforts we have done so far. It is fair to list it as *start point*.
> > You could NOT ask a start point to be mature or perfect. We are not
> > even sure there will be a protocol generic enough to suit all
> > scenarios. But this does not mean we should stop working.
>=20
> Actually i) I start to think that instead of indicating a fixed starting
> point, if it wouldn't be more appropriate to document source(s) of info
> helping guidance (such as early reviews), this would help keeping focus
> (fixing a starting point doesn't give such info), ii) by trying to impose
> a starting point with this document (for which I have not seen any
> objective argument showing we can't progress without it) may lead to the
> inverse effect than the initial objective, iii) submissions this WG is
> calling for may start from a different but stronger basis than this
> starting point (this would make later consensus even more complex to
> reach).
>=20
> Thanks,
> -dimitri.
>=20
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sheng
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-
> > lucent.com]
> > Sent: 13 September 2014 20:18
> > To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > o) We don't need to list documents to explain / characterize a
> > "starting point". I have made concrete suggestions to either explain
> > them in the charter or NRMG references (as widely used to write it
> down).
> > 
> >
> > o) The point has been mentioned several times on this list, your
> > individual submission assumes a single protocol for both functionality
> > (negotiation and discovery) whereas it is far from proven this is the
> > right decomposition; hence, the right "starting point".
> >
> > o) If as of today (charter writing time) there are known technical
> > issues/concerns in some these documents (the notion of negotiation
> > process this document uses is far from being satisfactory as already
> > explained on this list cf.  > archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> , the same for discovery
> > process cf.
> > ),
> > why should they be considered as starting point ?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -dimitri.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:56 PM
> > > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > >
> > > Hi, Dimitri,
> > >
> > > For my understanding,  all three drafts are only listed as *start
> > points*.
> > > It means: 1) they are not WG drafts yet, if there were better
> > > alternative appoaches, the WG could make an open process to choose.
> > > 2) they are not technically mature yet. They are open for any
> > > comments/doubts/debates to help them to become mature in the future.
> > > But it is the work for the WG stage, not for the draft charter
> > discussion.
> > >
> > > Explanation for the word "platform": it means the protocol itself is
> > > independent from the negotiation objectives. It only focuses on
> > > message exchange, negotiation process, and etc. It should be able to
> > > handle any negotiation information/objectives.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Sheng
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou,
> > > Dimitri
> > > (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: 13 September 2014 3:56
> > > To: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > >
> > > Hi Benoit,
> > >
> > > The purpose is not to bring a bigger problem but determine its
> > > boundaries towards building stronger foundations to the protocol
> > > effort. I have tried to explain in  > > archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> what are the boundaries of
> > > a negotiation process, but if I take discovery part for instance,
> > > the same type of discussion can be initiated.
> > >
> > > Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"
> > > (listed in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic
> > > negotiation platform (if someone can explain what the word platform
> > > means in this context this would be really helpful), it assumes "the
> > > main target scenarios are still hierarchical networks [...] we
> > > assume that each network element has a hierarchical superior" (how
> > > does such constraint relate to the NRMG framework document which
> > > states "Those nodes communicate with each other through an Autonomic
> > > Control Plane which provides a robust and secure communications
> > > overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent communication
> > > paths and not the other way around), and more importantly it doesn't
> > > put at all in perspective the three components of a discovery
> > > process in such
> > > systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y
> > > (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) and
> > whether other agents should access either of th!
> > > em direct
> > >  ly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a
> > > document that could be considered as a starting point.
> > >
> > > Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once
> > > adopting a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of
> > > any IPR application to the documents listed in the charter ? will
> > > you allow this group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > > -dimitri.
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 PM
> > > > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > > >
> > > > Hi Dimitri,
> > > > > Benoit:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > > > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the
> > > > >> charter text in the tool.
> > > > > The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as
> > > > > stable are diverting from
> > > > Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability=
?
> > > > I don't think so.
> > > > > the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to,
> > > > > in
> > > > particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the
> > > > thing right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the
> > > > end of the first charter term ?"
> > > > To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a
> > > > timely manner"
> > > > >
> > > > > Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a
> > > > > reusable
> > > > piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial=
.
> > > > Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known
> > > > loophole protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and
> > > > never see any wide adoption because potential users would need the
> > > > next use case/feature not covered by the protocol, is neither
> > > > going to help the "industry" nor the IETF.
> > > > >
> > > > > An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter
> > > > contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a
> > > > reusable piece of work is currently ongoing (cf.
> > > >  archive/web/anima/current/msg00242.html>).
> > > > You would be well advised in considering it.
> > > > Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
> > > > I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.
> > > >
> > > > Regards, Benoit
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > -dimitri.
> > > > >
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit
> > > > >> Claise
> > > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> > > > >> To: anima@ietf.org
> > > > >> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Dear all,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> > > > >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is,
> > > > >> let's say it, a pain.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> > > > >> Please bookmark
> > > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter
> > > > >> , which I consider like the more stable one at this point in
> time.
> > > > >> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab.
> > > > >> Note that only formating changes were inserted between versions
> > > > >> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > > > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the
> > > > >> charter text in the tool.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Anima mailing list
> > > > >> Anima@ietf.org
> > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Anima mailing list
> > > Anima@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Sun Sep 14 00:33:31 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:33:15 +0000
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/B4bXypIKFgZ9tc8B99dDqdFg7qI
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Hi, Dimitri,

I understand your concerns. They are valid, but not as serious as you descr=
ibed.

We actually share the same understanding regarding to discovery. The differ=
ent for discovery definition is only the matter of terminology choice. You =
used "agent" while we have "negotiation counterpart". We will follow whatev=
er the future WG decides on this.

Yes, we have tied discovery and negotiation process together in our documen=
t, because we think, to be able to generic enough, the same agent may want =
to negotiate with different peers when the negotiation objecives are differ=
ent, so the discovery process needs to be associated with negotiation objec=
tive. But it is certailly possible and easy to separate discovery and negot=
iation processes in our document, if it is the future WG consensus.

Thanks for your comments. But again, it is too early to discuss these detai=
ls.

Regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucen=
t.com]
Sent: 14 September 2014 8:54
To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA

Jiang:

You wrote:
> If the concensus is yes, we list the existing
> proposal as a start point and keep working to make it better.

This statement is incorrect as two tracks have been listed by Benoit (see <=
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00274.html>) and belo=
w excerpt:

"I see two tracks from here:
1. We keep the draft names as starting points.

2. We remove the draft names BUT you have to be slightly more verbose on wh=
at you try to achieve WITHOUT going in the full discussion right now. For e=
xample, all Dmitri's questions are valid ..."

I have explained how to cope with track 2 in case this would be the blockin=
g point in moving in that direction. Cf.  -- note: I have been delving in your docum=
ent to see which definition you use for discovery and couldn't find any. Ev=
en worse the document confuses discovery and negotiation process.

I have explained technically why you document is not suited as starting poi=
nt and why initiating the work from the wrong starting point will lead to m=
ore problems than be helpful.

Finally, repeating the same kind of argument as you do since two weeks, rei=
nforces the problem listed in my previous post "submissions this WG is call=
ing for may start from a different but stronger basis than this starting po=
int (this would make later consensus even more complex to reach)".

Thanks,
-dimitri.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 1:55 AM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>
> Dimitri,
>
> You missed the right discussion point, again. Like Benoit asked: the real
> question is: should a future WG be working on discovery and negotiation.
> If the concensus is no, we should, of course, drop this problem and the
> start point document. If the concensus is yes, we list the existing
> proposal as a start point and keep working to make it better. My
> understanding so far, nobody, including you, say no to the problem. After
> then, again, as I explained before, the start point documents are not WG
> drafts yet, if there were better alternative appoaches, the WG would make
> an open process to choose. List of  start points only means we have
> concrete proposals. It is much better than empty, or start from zero.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sheng
> ________________________________________
> From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: 14 September 2014 3:08
> To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>
> Hello,
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 2:40 PM
> > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi, Dimitri,
> >
> > Firstly, you jump too fast into some technical discussions which
> > should be made in the WG stage, rather than draft charter stage.
>
> I don't think that a statement like "Please, drop the document from the
> charter" without any technical argument would be appropriate.
>
> > Secondly, I could agree with you that so far the proposed protocol is
> > not generic enough to solve all the requirements. We will keep working
> > on this. Your comments are very helpful for us to make it better. We
> > really appreciate your comments and participation. This is the best
> > efforts we have done so far. It is fair to list it as *start point*.
> > You could NOT ask a start point to be mature or perfect. We are not
> > even sure there will be a protocol generic enough to suit all
> > scenarios. But this does not mean we should stop working.
>
> Actually i) I start to think that instead of indicating a fixed starting
> point, if it wouldn't be more appropriate to document source(s) of info
> helping guidance (such as early reviews), this would help keeping focus
> (fixing a starting point doesn't give such info), ii) by trying to impose
> a starting point with this document (for which I have not seen any
> objective argument showing we can't progress without it) may lead to the
> inverse effect than the initial objective, iii) submissions this WG is
> calling for may start from a different but stronger basis than this
> starting point (this would make later consensus even more complex to
> reach).
>
> Thanks,
> -dimitri.
>
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sheng
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-
> > lucent.com]
> > Sent: 13 September 2014 20:18
> > To: Sheng Jiang; Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > o) We don't need to list documents to explain / characterize a
> > "starting point". I have made concrete suggestions to either explain
> > them in the charter or NRMG references (as widely used to write it
> down).
> > 
> >
> > o) The point has been mentioned several times on this list, your
> > individual submission assumes a single protocol for both functionality
> > (negotiation and discovery) whereas it is far from proven this is the
> > right decomposition; hence, the right "starting point".
> >
> > o) If as of today (charter writing time) there are known technical
> > issues/concerns in some these documents (the notion of negotiation
> > process this document uses is far from being satisfactory as already
> > explained on this list cf.  > archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> , the same for discovery
> > process cf.
> > ),
> > why should they be considered as starting point ?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -dimitri.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:56 PM
> > > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > >
> > > Hi, Dimitri,
> > >
> > > For my understanding,  all three drafts are only listed as *start
> > points*.
> > > It means: 1) they are not WG drafts yet, if there were better
> > > alternative appoaches, the WG could make an open process to choose.
> > > 2) they are not technically mature yet. They are open for any
> > > comments/doubts/debates to help them to become mature in the future.
> > > But it is the work for the WG stage, not for the draft charter
> > discussion.
> > >
> > > Explanation for the word "platform": it means the protocol itself is
> > > independent from the negotiation objectives. It only focuses on
> > > message exchange, negotiation process, and etc. It should be able to
> > > handle any negotiation information/objectives.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Sheng
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: Anima [anima-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Papadimitriou,
> > > Dimitri
> > > (Dimitri) [dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: 13 September 2014 3:56
> > > To: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > >
> > > Hi Benoit,
> > >
> > > The purpose is not to bring a bigger problem but determine its
> > > boundaries towards building stronger foundations to the protocol
> > > effort. I have tried to explain in  > > archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html> what are the boundaries of
> > > a negotiation process, but if I take discovery part for instance,
> > > the same type of discussion can be initiated.
> > >
> > > Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"
> > > (listed in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic
> > > negotiation platform (if someone can explain what the word platform
> > > means in this context this would be really helpful), it assumes "the
> > > main target scenarios are still hierarchical networks [...] we
> > > assume that each network element has a hierarchical superior" (how
> > > does such constraint relate to the NRMG framework document which
> > > states "Those nodes communicate with each other through an Autonomic
> > > Control Plane which provides a robust and secure communications
> > > overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent communication
> > > paths and not the other way around), and more importantly it doesn't
> > > put at all in perspective the three components of a discovery
> > > process in such
> > > systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y
> > > (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) and
> > whether other agents should access either of th!
> > > em direct
> > >  ly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a
> > > document that could be considered as a starting point.
> > >
> > > Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once
> > > adopting a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of
> > > any IPR application to the documents listed in the charter ? will
> > > you allow this group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > > -dimitri.
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 PM
> > > > To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); anima@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > > >
> > > > Hi Dimitri,
> > > > > Benoit:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > > > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the
> > > > >> charter text in the tool.
> > > > > The criteria of "speed" and "focus" for considering a charter as
> > > > > stable are diverting from
> > > > Did I do this mistake to confuse speed/focus with charter stability=
?
> > > > I don't think so.
> > > > > the real questions such piece of text should provide answers to,
> > > > > in
> > > > particular, "are we doing the right thing ?", "are we doing the
> > > > thing right ?", "how are we going to measure/prove success at the
> > > > end of the first charter term ?"
> > > > To answer the last question: "by producing quality documents in a
> > > > timely manner"
> > > > >
> > > > > Assessing whether this group has the critical mass to realize a
> > > > > reusable
> > > > piece of work instead of a high-risk point-solution is also crucial=
.
> > > > Indeed, proceeding by trial-and-error or risking the well-known
> > > > loophole protocol -> use case -> protocol -> use case -> ... and
> > > > never see any wide adoption because potential users would need the
> > > > next use case/feature not covered by the protocol, is neither
> > > > going to help the "industry" nor the IETF.
> > > > >
> > > > > An effort aiming at reconciling and combining different charter
> > > > contributions in an attempt to minimize such risks and produce a
> > > > reusable piece of work is currently ongoing (cf.
> > > >  archive/web/anima/current/msg00242.html>).
> > > > You would be well advised in considering it.
> > > > Considered it, and I have replied to Laurent.
> > > > I don't believe that making a problem bigger helps solving it.
> > > >
> > > > Regards, Benoit
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > -dimitri.
> > > > >
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit
> > > > >> Claise
> > > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:48 PM
> > > > >> To: anima@ietf.org
> > > > >> Subject: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Dear all,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trying to compile the diffs between charter versions from
> > > > >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter is,
> > > > >> let's say it, a pain.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> We have a nice tool for chartering effort.
> > > > >> Please bookmark
> > > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Charter "charter-ietf-anima-00-04" corresponds to the version 9
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/DraftCharter
> > > > >> , which I consider like the more stable one at this point in
> time.
> > > > >> Looking at the diffs is very easy. Click on the history tab.
> > > > >> Note that only formating changes were inserted between versions
> > > > >> charter-ietf-anima-00-00 and charter-ietf-anima-00-04.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Let's continue the chartering discussion.
> > > > >> In collaboration with Brian and Michael, I can update the
> > > > >> charter text in the tool.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Anima mailing list
> > > > >> Anima@ietf.org
> > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Anima mailing list
> > > Anima@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" , Brian E Carpenter , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - IPR
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - IPR
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
> (bclaise)
> Sent: 13 September 2014 09:30
> To: Brian E Carpenter; Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - IPR
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> >> Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopti=
ng a
> document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR
> application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this =
group
> proposing its royalty free protocol ?
> > IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted - there
> > is nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.
> > Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any disclosed IPR
> > is a problem or not; that's a consensus matter, not an AD choice.
> Exactly.
>=20
> I would like to draw to the attention of the draft-jiang-config-negotiati=
on-
> protocol,
> draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, and draft-behringer-
> autonomic-control-plane draft authors that IPR declarations are required,
> and that IPRs might be an important factor in a WG creation.
> Actually, this message is valid for all draft authors.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit

Thanks for the reminder, Benoit. There is IPR on draft-behringer-autonomic-=
control-plane, and that is declared (see datatracker), as well as for draft=
-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, which we forgot to declare and =
are now in the process of doing so. (Background: This draft evolved from dr=
aft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap, for which we DID declare the IPR, bu=
t we overlooked that for the new draft we need to declare again.).=20

Michael

> >     Brian
> > .
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
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Dear Benoit, all,

Please see below in-line for my replies.

Thanks, Laurent.

On 12/09/2014 17:21, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear Laurent,
>
>> Dear Benoit, all,
>>
>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>
>> One point puzzles me: why go through the whole process of a working 
>> group to specify 2 protocols the quickest way possible? Why not just 
>> submit the work as AD-sponsored or independent submissions?
>> I am being a bit provocative here ;) don't get me wrong I am 
>> supportive of the initiative.
>> At the UCAN BoF, we got support to form a group on AN. Has the group 
>> shown support for the 2 use cases / protocols mentioned?
>>
>> "There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things that could 
>> be done quickly".
>> It should be quick _*and*_ right, i.e. more emphasis and speed in 
>> developing the right set of functionality (operators' expectations) 
>> instead of point-solution protocols (necessary but not ultimate goal).
> There is definitively some values in AN and we (Joel and I) see it.
> On the other hand, NMRTG had plenty of time to dedicate to AN, and the 
> progresses there have been slow (there is no points to delve into the 
> reasons on this mailing list, but that's a fact). So we took the 
> approach to have a reduced charter. Note that we wrote "focus on 
> things that could be done quickly", and not the "focus on things that 
> could be done the quickest way possible".
> From day one, we said "two use cases", and we gave freedom to the 
> community to select which ones.

Early in the charter drafting process, issues have been raised on the 
"selection" of use cases, and on the term "use case" itself.
An alternative is proposed to possibly avoid these issues by: having (at 
least) 2 functionalities. The (n) use cases would serve to define the 
boundaries / problems these functionalities have to solve (and ensure in 
return a certain level of re-usability among use cases).


> I understand that the two use cases in the charter have running code: 
> that also helps.

As presented in IETF86, IETF88 and IETF 89: running codes exist for the 
risk-aware routing use case, and for the unified management framework 
(or ACP).
Is it proving something?

> I'm hoping that this WG will be successful, and that plenty of charter 
> updates will follow, but I have to make sure that the WG has a 
> reasonable probability of having success.
>>
>> To my view, the group should start with focus on 1-2 functionalities 
>> (and not protocols).
> functionality isn't equal to use case?

Depends on the definition(s)... ;)
Functionalities are the common components we are trying to define.
A use case may need several functionalities to solve its problem(s), but 
the goal is to have m (functionality) < or << to n (use cases).


>>
>> In your other email, you consider charter-09 as the stable version. I 
>> have produced version -10 which combines the main charter 
>> contributions and comments so far, in the spirit of creating a larger 
>> basis for this working group and highlighting the implications of the 
>> different approaches presented (i.e. protocol driven vs. 
>> functionality driven). 
> The issue is that it's a complete rewrite of the 9 previous iterations.

As explained, it is a tentative to capture the different viewpoints 
towards a common direction. It certainly led to rewrite/reorganize the 
document, yet several parts are from the previous versions.

>
>> Did you had time to consider it?
> Yes, and I don't believe that the described "main goals of the ANIMA 
> WG" are the right ones.

Could you develop? (e.g. on which basis...)

Goal n°2 is expressed similarly in charter v-09 (" /The _main goal_ of 
the ANIMA WG is therefore to _develop common infrastructure components_ 
for distributed functions./ "), and in several emails on the list.

You also wrote: "/the charter moved in the direction of _developing 
reusable infrastructure components for distributed autonomic networking 
functions_ plus 2 uses case to demonstrate the usage of those 
infrastructure components. Even better./"



> And the dual approach of bottom-up and top-down will not work IMO.
I also think/said the hybridation may not be the right/best choice; even 
more, I think themethodologyissue is misleading.
What I would like this WG to deliver a set of protocols:
     -that are applicable to as many use case as possible.
     -that have the ability to cope / apply to new use cases without 
major extensions / re-design (i.e. profiling might be a good way).
     -that are not generic to the point of being inapplicable (i.e. 
useless).


> However, during a call this morning, Michael propose to use 2 
> paragraphs from your charter proposal.
> Let me post it shortly.

Thanks, appreciated.


>
> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>
>>
>> On 11/09/2014 12:37, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Sorry for the delay in providing guidance. Back to normal operation 
>>> mode (from vacation), I'll be more responsive from now on.
>>> I've been reviewing the entire email archive, and Joel & I discussed 
>>> the ANIMA status yesterday, based on the charter v8.
>>>
>>> A few observations, to start with:
>>> 1. Autonomic Networking could be a huge explanatory field.
>>> 2. From the BoF, we heard (among other points):
>>>     There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things that 
>>> could be done quickly
>>> 3. The IESG has also been realizing that the process of problem 
>>> statement/use cases/requirements/architecture/protocol takes way too 
>>> long for the industry.
>>> 4. If a great architecture document to rule all autonomic functions 
>>> would have been easy, it would been done already. In NMRG for 
>>> example, which had plenty of time to think about it! So an 
>>> architecture as a starting point is not the right approach.
>>> 5. A WG can always be re-chartered in future phases
>>>
>>> These are the reasons why Joel and I asked the BoF chairs to lead a 
>>> charter discussion, focusing on only 2 use cases.
>>> In the mean time, the charter moved in the direction of developing 
>>> reusable infrastructure components for distributed autonomic 
>>> networking functions plus 2 uses case to demonstrate the usage of 
>>> those infrastructure components. Even better.
>>>
>>> Regarding the "architecture" (see point 4 above), we like the 
>>> phrasing of:
>>>
>>>     It is essential that these components and solutions fit together
>>>     as an integrated whole.
>>>     For this reason, an overview document will be developed in
>>>     parallel with the individual
>>>     specifications.
>>>
>>>
>>> Coming back to the number of use cases and the sentence "A second 
>>> simple example may be added by agreement with the Area Director", we 
>>> believe that the second use case is in the charter already, but 
>>> somehow hidden. We read that "Autonomic Control Plane" and/or 
>>> "bootstrap a trust infrastructure" (not sure about the second one 
>>> though) are at the same time reusable component and a use case. Can 
>>> you please describe your use case in a bullet point, next to 
>>> "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network"
>>> Also, wrt "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within 
>>> a network", can you please describe the use case some more. This is 
>>> a little bit too high level.
>>>
>>> Looking at the charter v9 now.
>>> Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I actually 
>>> believe that pointing to existing work is a plus, to see some 
>>> description behind a single bullet point. Let's imagine that you 
>>> read "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control 
>>> Plane" for the first time (this is what will happen when/if this 
>>> charter is proposed for last-call), I'm sure that would lead to many 
>>> questions or potential wrong assumptions.
>>> Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply that we 
>>> ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.
>>>
>>> One final edit. From the email discussion, I read that one of the AN 
>>> goal is OPEX reduction. That's maybe an obvious but a key message to 
>>> mention in the charter. In the problem statement paragraph, this 
>>> could introduce in the last sentence.
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>
>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>
>> Advanced Internet Research
>>
>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>
>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>
>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
>> 
>>
>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>>
>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>
>>   * English - detected
>>   * English
>>   * French
>>
>>   * English
>>   * French
>>
>> 2
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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    Dear Benoit, all,

      

      Please see below in-line for my replies.

      

      Thanks, Laurent.

      

    
    
On 12/09/2014 17:21, Benoit Claise
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
Dear Laurent,

        

      

      

        
        Dear Benoit, all,

          

          Thanks for your feedback.

          

          One point puzzles me: why go through the whole process of a
          working group to specify 2 protocols the quickest way
          possible? Why not just submit the work as AD-sponsored or
          independent submissions?

          I am being a bit provocative here ;) don't get me wrong I am
          supportive of the initiative.

        At the
            UCAN BoF, we got support to form a group on AN. Has
          the group shown support for the 2 use cases / protocols
          mentioned?

        

            "There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things
            that could be done quickly".

            It should be quick and right, i.e. more
            emphasis and speed in developing the right set of
            functionality (operators' expectations) instead of
            point-solution protocols (necessary but not ultimate goal).

          

      There is definitively some values in AN and we (Joel and I) see
      it.

      On the other hand, NMRTG had plenty of time to dedicate to AN, and
      the progresses there have been slow (there is no points to delve
      into the reasons on this mailing list, but that's a fact). So we
      took the approach to have a reduced charter. Note that we wrote "focus on things that could be done quickly",
      and not the "focus on things that could be done
        the quickest way possible".

      From day one, we said "two use cases", and we gave freedom to the
      community to select which ones.

    

    Early in the charter drafting process, issues have been raised on
    the "selection" of use cases, and on the term "use case" itself.

    An alternative is proposed to possibly avoid these issues by: having
    (at least) 2 functionalities. The (n) use cases would serve to
    define the boundaries / problems these functionalities have to solve
    (and ensure in return a certain level of re-usability among use
    cases).

    

    

    
 I
      understand that the two use cases in the charter have running
      code: that also helps.

    

    

    As presented in IETF86, IETF88 and IETF 89: running codes exist for
    the risk-aware routing use case, and for the unified management
    framework (or ACP).

    Is it proving something?

    

    
 I'm
      hoping that this WG will be successful, and that plenty of charter
      updates will follow, but I have to make sure that the WG has a
      reasonable probability of having success.
      
 

            To my view, the group should start with focus on 1-2
            functionalities (and not protocols).

          

      functionality isn't equal to use case?

    

    

    Depends on the definition(s)... ;)

    Functionalities are the common components we are trying to define.

    A use case may need several functionalities to solve its problem(s),
    but the goal is to have m (functionality) < or << to n (use
    cases).

    

    

    

      
 

        In your other email, you consider
                charter-09 as the stable version. I have produced
                version -10 which combines the
                                        main charter contributions and
                                        comments so far, in



                            the spirit of creating a larger basis for
                            this working group and highlighting the
                            implications of the different approaches
                            presented (i.e. protocol driven vs.
                            functionality driven). 

      The issue is that it's a complete rewrite
        of the 9 previous iterations.

      

    

    As explained, it is a tentative to capture the different viewpoints
    towards a common direction. It certainly led to rewrite/reorganize
    the document, yet several parts are from the previous versions.

    

    
 

      
      
Did you had time to consider
                    it?

                  

      Yes, and I don't believe that the
        described "main goals of the ANIMA WG" are the right ones.

      

    

    Could you develop? (e.g. on which basis...)

    

    Goal n°2 is expressed similarly in charter v-09 ("
    
    The main goal of the ANIMA WG is therefore to develop
        common infrastructure components for distributed functions.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    "), and in several emails on the list.

    

    You also wrote: "the charter moved in the direction of developing
        reusable infrastructure components for distributed autonomic
        networking functions plus 2 uses case to demonstrate the
      usage of those infrastructure components. Even better."

    

    

    

    
 And the dual approach of bottom-up and
        top-down will not work IMO.

      

    I also think/said the hybridation may not
      be the right/best choice; even more, I think the methodology
      issue is misleading.

      What I would like this WG to deliver a set of protocols:

          -that are applicable to as many use case as possible.

          -that have the ability to cope / apply to new use cases
      without major extensions / re-design (i.e. profiling might be a
      good way).

          -that are not generic to the point of being inapplicable (i.e.
      useless).

      

      

    
    
 However, during a call this morning, Michael
        propose to use 2 paragraphs from your charter proposal.

        Let me post it shortly.

      

    

    Thanks, appreciated.

      

      

    
    
 

        Regards, Benoit

      
      
 

                  Thanks, best regards,
            Laurent.

            

            

          
        
On 11/09/2014 12:37, Benoit Claise
          wrote:

        

        

          Dear all,

          

          Sorry for the delay in providing guidance. Back to normal
          operation mode (from vacation), I'll be more responsive from
          now on.

          I've been reviewing the entire email archive, and Joel & I
          discussed the ANIMA status yesterday, based on the charter v8.

          

          A few observations, to start with:

          1. Autonomic Networking could be a huge explanatory field. 

          2. From the BoF, we heard (among other points): 

                There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on
            things that could be done quickly

            3. The IESG has also been realizing that the process of
            problem statement/use
            cases/requirements/architecture/protocol takes way too long
            for the industry.

            4. If a great
              architecture document to rule all autonomic functions
              would have been easy, it would been done already. In NMRG
              for example, which had plenty of time to think about it!
              So an architecture as a starting point is not the right
              approach.

              5. A WG can always be re-chartered in future phases

            

            These are the reasons why Joel and I asked the BoF chairs to
            lead a charter discussion, focusing on only 2 use cases.

            In the mean time, the charter moved in the direction of developing



          reusable infrastructure components for distributed autonomic
          networking functions plus 2 uses case to demonstrate the usage of those
              infrastructure components. Even better. 

            

            Regarding the "architecture" (see point 4 above), we like
            the phrasing of:

          
          
It is essential that these
              components and solutions fit together as an integrated
              whole.

            For this reason, an overview document
              will be developed in parallel with the individual

            specifications.

            

          

            Coming back to the number of use cases and the sentence "A second simple example may
            be added by agreement with the Area Director", we believe
            that the second use case is in the charter already, but
            somehow hidden. We read that "Autonomic Control Plane"
            and/or "bootstrap a trust infrastructure" (not sure about
            the second one though) are at the same time reusable
            component and a use case. Can you please describe your use
            case in a bullet point, next to "Definition of solution for
            IPv6 prefix management within a network"

            Also, wrt "Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management
            within a network", can you please describe the use case some
            more. This is a little bit too high level.

            

            Looking at the charter v9 now.

            Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I
            actually believe that pointing to existing work is a plus,
            to see some description behind a single bullet point. Let's
            imagine that you read "Definition of a solution for a
            separated Autonomic Control Plane" for the first time (this
            is what will happen when/if this charter is proposed for
            last-call), I'm sure that would lead to many questions or
            potential wrong assumptions.

            Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply
            that we ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.

          

            One final edit. From the email discussion, I read that one
            of the AN goal is OPEX reduction. That's maybe an obvious
            but a key message to mention in the charter. In the problem
            statement paragraph, this could introduce in the last
            sentence.

          

            Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)

            

           

          

          

          
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


        

        

        
-- 

          
          
          

            
Bien cordialement, Best
                regards,

            
 

            
Laurent Ciavaglia

            
Advanced
                Internet Research

            
Bell Labs
                | Alcatel Lucent

            
 

            
phone: +33 160 402 636
              

            
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

            
linkedin: laurentciavaglia

            
address: Route de
                Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

          

        

        

          

            

              

                
    
                  
  • English - detected
    • 
                  
  • English
    • 
                  
  • French
    • 
                

              

              

                
    
                  
  • English
    • 
                  
  • French
    • 
                

              

            

          

          
2

          

      

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


--------------030503090200090909040904--


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Dear Benoit, all,

[snip]

On 12/09/2014 17:47, Benoit Claise wrote:
> On 12/09/2014 15:54, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
>> On 12/09/2014 15:05, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you raise 
>>> MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss the 
>>> solutions. 
>> Agreed. One of my concerns is that the initial scope in open enough 
>> to attract a large base of contributions/contributors. Said in other 
>> words: will potential contributors find areas (e.g. config., healing, 
>> protect., optim.) where their problems/interests/competencies can be 
>> addressed/applied.
> The development of autonomic networking use cases, according to the 
> criteria at 
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-ucan-0.pdf, is 
> encouraged, but we have to understand that not all uses cases can be 
> considered in an initial charter.

The proposed alternative is rather to consider in the initial charter a 
set of functionalities (e.g. negotiation, discovery, bootstrapping...) 
we agree on, and review use cases against those to start the process.

Thanks, Laurent.

--------------080907010209080006070809
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    Dear Benoit, all,

      

      [snip]

      

    
    
On 12/09/2014 17:47, Benoit Claise
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
On 12/09/2014 15:54, Laurent
        Ciavaglia wrote:

      

      
 On 12/09/2014 15:05, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
        wrote:

        

          
          (And
              we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you
              raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll raise them when we
              discuss the solutions. 

        

          
 

        

         Agreed. One of my concerns is that the
          initial scope in open enough to attract a large base of
          contributions/contributors. Said in other words: will
          potential contributors find areas (e.g. config., healing,
          protect., optim.) where their problems/interests/competencies
          can be addressed/applied.

        

      The development of autonomic networking use cases, according to
      the criteria at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-ucan-0.pdf,
      is encouraged, but we have to understand that not all uses cases
      can be considered in an initial charter.

    

    

    The proposed alternative is rather to consider in the initial
    charter a set of functionalities (e.g. negotiation, discovery,
    bootstrapping...) we agree on, and review use cases against those to
    start the process.

    

    Thanks, Laurent.

  


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA - draft names mentioned or not?
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Dear Benoit, all,

I am in favor of track nr. 2., and yes, I believe the WG should address=20
such problem(s) (assuming I undestood correctly problem in this context=20
as the set of functionalities in scope of the WG).

I would describe these parts (functionalities) in the charter by:
     -naming the functionality, short description, references (articles, =

I-Ds).

HTH, best regards, Laurent.


On 13/09/2014 09:24, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Let me split the issue.
> I inserted the draft names back in the charter at=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> As explained in a previous email (Subject "ANIMA status"):
>
>     Regarding the starting points mentioning the draft names, I
>     actually believe that pointing to existing work is a plus, to see
>     some description behind a single bullet point. Let's imagine that
>     you read "Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic
>     Control Plane" for the first time (this is what will happen
>     when/if this charter is proposed for last-call), I'm sure that
>     would lead to many questions or potential wrong assumptions.
>     Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply that
>     we ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.
>
> I see two tracks from here:
> 1. We keep the draft names as starting points.
>
> 2. We remove the draft names BUT you have to be slightly more verbose=20
> on what you try to achieve WITHOUT going in the full discussion right=20
> now. For example, all Dmitri's questions are valid ...
>
>     Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (=
listed in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation =
platform (if someone can explain what the word platform means in this con=
text this would be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios=
 are still hierarchical networks [...] we assume that each network elemen=
t has a hierarchical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NR=
MG framework document which states "Those nodes communicate with each oth=
er through an Autonomic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure =
communications overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent com=
munication paths and not the other way around), and more importantly it d=
oesn't put at all in perspective the three components of a discovery proc=
ess in such systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide age=
nt Y (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) and w=
hether other agents should
>        access
>       either of them directly or indirectly. This type of consideration=
s should be part of a document that could be considered as a starting poi=
nt.
>
> ... but I wonder whether we should answer all them now, at charter time=
=2E
>
> The real question is: should a future WG be working on this problem?
>
> Regards, Benoit
>> Brian:
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:25 PM
>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>>> Cc: Benoit Claise;anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>>>
>>> Two clarifications:
>>>
>>> On 13/09/2014 07:56, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"
>>>> (listed in the charter)
>>> No, we have removed it from the charter according to earlier discussi=
ons.
>>> (I'd be glad to respond to your specific comments on the draft, but t=
hat
>>> is not a chartering issue.)
>> In the latest version (as posted by Benoit, I read:
>>
>> [specific goals]
>> The goals of this working group are below. The were selected to accord=
ing to the
>> analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis:
>> o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic fun=
ctions
>>     Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
>> o Definition of a solution to bootstrap a trust infrastructure
>>     Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
>> o Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane
>>     Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane
>>
>>>> Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adop=
ting
>>> a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR
>>> application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow t=
his
>>> group proposing its royalty free protocol ?
>>>
>>> IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted - ther=
e is
>>> nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.
>> I don't understand then why my mailbox is full of emails from WG chair=
s asking for any IPR issue upon WG adoption.
>>
>>> Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any disclosed IPR=
 is a
>>> problem or not; that's a consensus matter, not an AD choice.
>>>
>>>     Brian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

--=20

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com=20


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


--------------030309060706030205080703
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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    Dear Benoit, all,

      

      I am in favor of track nr. 2., and yes, I believe the WG should
      address such problem(s) (assuming I undestood correctly problem in
      this context as the set of functionalities in scope of the WG).

      

      I would describe these parts (functionalities) in the charter by:

          -naming the functionality, short description, references
      (articles, I-Ds).

      

      HTH, best regards, Laurent.

      

      

    
    
On 13/09/2014 09:24, Benoit Claise
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
Dear all, 

        

        Let me split the issue.

        I inserted the draft names back in the charter at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/

        As explained in a previous email (Subject "ANIMA status"):

        
Regarding the starting points
            mentioning the draft names, I actually believe that pointing
            to existing work is a plus, to see some description behind a
            single bullet point. Let's imagine that you read "Definition
            of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane" for
            the first time (this is what will happen when/if this
            charter is proposed for last-call), I'm sure that would lead
            to many questions or potential wrong assumptions.

            Note, however, that mentioning starting points doesn't imply
            that we ask you to adopt those document as WG items now.

        I see two tracks from here:

        1. We keep the draft names as starting points. 

        

        2. We remove the draft names BUT you have to be slightly more
        verbose on what you try to achieve WITHOUT going in the full
        discussion right now. For example, all Dmitri's questions are
        valid ...

        

          
Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol" (listed in the charter) states it is designed to be a generic negotiation platform (if someone can explain what the word platform means in this context this would be really helpful), it assumes "the main target scenarios are still hierarchical networks [...] we assume that each network element has a hierarchical superior" (how does such constraint relate to the NRMG framework document which states "Those nodes communicate with each other through an Autonomic Control Plane which provides a robust and secure communications overlay" which reads plane needs drive the inter-agent communication paths and not the other way around), and more importantly it doesn't put at all in perspective the three components of a discovery process in such systems: where is agent X (location), what can do/provide agent Y (function/resource), which knowledge has agent Z (information) and whether other agents shou
 ld
  access
 either of them directly or indirectly. This type of considerations should be part of a document that could be considered as a starting point. 

        

      

      ... but I wonder whether we should answer all them now, at charter
      time. 

      

      The real question is: should a future WG be working on this
      problem?

      

      Regards, Benoit

      

        
Brian:



        

          
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:25 PM
To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
Cc: Benoit Claise; anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA

Two clarifications:

On 13/09/2014 07:56, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
...


          

            
Discovery as documented "draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol"
(listed in the charter)


          

          
No, we have removed it from the charter according to earlier discussions.
(I'd be glad to respond to your specific comments on the draft, but that
is not a chartering issue.)


        

        
In the latest version (as posted by Benoit <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00266.html>, I read:

[specific goals]
The goals of this working group are below. The were selected to according to the
analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis: 
o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol 
o Definition of a solution to bootstrap a trust infrastructure 
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures 
o Definition of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane 



        

          

            
Side question: as the IETF now asks for IPR related issues once adopting


          

          
a document (from its charter), what would happen in case of any IPR
application to the documents listed in the charter ? will you allow this
group proposing its royalty free protocol ?

IPR disclosure is required as soon as a contribution is posted - there is
nothing special about WG adoption in that respect.


        

        
I don't understand then why my mailbox is full of emails from WG chairs asking for any IPR issue upon WG adoption. 



        

          
Also, each WG makes its own decisions about whether any disclosed IPR is a
problem or not; that's a consensus matter, not an AD choice.

   Brian


        

      

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


--------------030309060706030205080703--


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Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:02:27 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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Cc: Benoit Claise , Joel Jaeggli 
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
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Hello,

For planning issues, I would like to know what is the plan for the 
weekly calls.

The initial idea was to hold an interim, face-to-face, technical meeting 
before IETF91.

Instead, the weekly calls have been proposed to make regular 
synchronization and address issues on the charter definition.
I think the experience helped, but the tool was not ideally suited to 
allow participants worldwide and discuss technical matters in more 
depth. Fortunately the mailing list is here as default.

So, are we continuing with the conference calls, purposes/objectives...?

Thanks, Laurent.

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


--------------040604070202060603050006
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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    Hello,

      

      For planning issues, I would like to know what is the plan for the
      weekly calls.

      

      The initial idea was to hold an interim, face-to-face, technical
      meeting before IETF91.

       

      Instead, the weekly calls have been proposed to make regular
      synchronization and address issues on the charter definition.

      I think the experience helped, but the tool was not ideally suited
      to allow participants worldwide
      and discuss technical matters in
      more depth. Fortunately the mailing list is here as default.

      

      So, are we continuing with the conference calls,
      purposes/objectives...?

      

    Thanks, Laurent.

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


--------------040604070202060603050006--


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: Laurent Ciavaglia , anima 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
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Laurent,
I don't think we can achieve a physical interim meeting before the IETF. Un=
less you have a suggestion where the key people can get together?
Given that the participants are all over the world, there is no time zone t=
hat suits all. Right now the working assumption was that we have alternatin=
g calls at 6am GMT one week, and 2pm GMT the other (for which I need to sen=
d another invite).
For now my assumption is we continue with those calls, to further discuss n=
ext steps. Any other idea/suggestion?
Michael

From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Ciavaglia
Sent: 15 September 2014 18:02
To: anima
Cc: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Joel Jaeggli
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls

Hello,

For planning issues, I would like to know what is the plan for the weekly c=
alls.

The initial idea was to hold an interim, face-to-face, technical meeting be=
fore IETF91.

Instead, the weekly calls have been proposed to make regular synchronizatio=
n and address issues on the charter definition.
I think the experience helped, but the tool was not ideally suited to allow=
 participants worldwide and discuss technical matters in more depth. Fortun=
ately the mailing list is here as default.

So, are we continuing with the conference calls, purposes/objectives...?

Thanks, Laurent.
--
Bien cordialement, Best regards,

Laurent Ciavaglia
Advanced Internet Research
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
linkedin: laurentciavaglia
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C408F6xmbrcdx14ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











=
Laurent,



=
I don’=
;t think we can achieve a physical interim meeting before the IETF. Unless =
you have a suggestion where the key people can get
 together? 


=
Given that =
the participants are all over the world, there is no time zone that suits a=
ll. Right now the working assumption was that
 we have alternating calls at 6am GMT one week, and 2pm GMT the other (for =
which I need to send another invite).



=
For now my =
assumption is we continue with those calls, to further discuss next steps. =
Any other idea/suggestion?



=
Michael


=
 =










From:
 Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] =
On Behalf Of
Laurent Ciavaglia

Sent: 15 September 2014 18:0=
2

To: anima

Cc: Benoit Claise (bclaise);=
 Joel Jaeggli

Subject: [Anima] ANIMA weekl=
y calls






=
 <=
/font>


Hello,



For planning issues, I would like to know what is the plan for the weekly c=
alls.



The initial idea was to hold an interim, face-to-face, technical meeting be=
fore IETF91.

 

Instead, the weekly calls have been proposed to make regular synchronizatio=
n and address issues on the charter definition.

I think the experience helped, but the tool was not ideally suited to allow=
 participants worldwide and discuss technical matters in more depth. Fortun=
ately the mailing list is here as default.



So, are we continuing with the conference calls, purposes/objectives...?


Thanks, Laurent.





-- 




Bien cordialement, Best regards,



 



Laurent Ciavaglia



Advanced Internet Research


Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent


 



phone: +33 160 402 636




email:
laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lu=
cent.com



linkedin:
laurentciavaglia



address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France










--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C408F6xmbrcdx14ciscoc_--


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Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:02:21 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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On 16/09/2014 06:54, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> Laurent,
> I don't think we can achieve a physical interim meeting before the IETF. Unless you have a suggestion where the key people can get together?

You would all be most welcome in Auckland ;-). Seriously, I will not be able
travel long-distance before the IETF. I think that will apply to many
of us.

> Given that the participants are all over the world, there is no time zone that suits all. Right now the working assumption was that we have alternating calls at 6am GMT one week, and 2pm GMT the other (for which I need to send another invite).

Yes, and I think the first full meeting must be face-to-face.

> For now my assumption is we continue with those calls, to further discuss next steps. Any other idea/suggestion?

Please review the action list at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/PrepMeetings
We need to move forward on submitting a meeting request to the ADs, this week
(even if it's unclear whether it will be a WG-forming BOF or a WG meeting).

    Brian
> Michael
> 
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Ciavaglia
> Sent: 15 September 2014 18:02
> To: anima
> Cc: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Joel Jaeggli
> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
> 
> Hello,
> 
> For planning issues, I would like to know what is the plan for the weekly calls.
> 
> The initial idea was to hold an interim, face-to-face, technical meeting before IETF91.
> 
> Instead, the weekly calls have been proposed to make regular synchronization and address issues on the charter definition.
> I think the experience helped, but the tool was not ideally suited to allow participants worldwide and discuss technical matters in more depth. Fortunately the mailing list is here as default.
> 
> So, are we continuing with the conference calls, purposes/objectives...?
> 
> Thanks, Laurent.
> --
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
> 
> Laurent Ciavaglia
> Advanced Internet Research
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
> 
> phone: +33 160 402 636
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Tue Sep 16 06:21:48 2014
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: anima 
Thread-Topic: ANIMA Conference Call
Thread-Index: Ac/RsRMXtyFGYdBxTEeO2XV/+IjiBgAABEYQ
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:21:38 +0000
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/GMJY5Hht7Noj9xEZtLk5GsExkYU
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA Conference Call
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--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C41CC1xmbrcdx14ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Topic: ANIMA Conference Call
Date: Every 2 weeks on Thursday, from Thursday, 18 September 2014, to Thurs=
day, 30 October 2014
Time: 16:00, Europe Summer Time (Paris, GMT+02:00)
Meeting Number: 201 352 957
Meeting Password: anima
Host Key: 659729 (Use this to reclaim host privileges.)

-------------------------------------------------------
To start the online meeting
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Go to https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?MTID=3Dm6cbfe1492fcbd2ede=
942ad4c80392070
2. Log in to your account.
3. Click "Start Now".
4. Follow the instructions that appear on your screen.

----------------------------------------------------------------
ALERT - PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITHIN THE (408=
) OR (919) AREA CODES
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:
- San Jose/Milpitas (408) area: 525-6800
- RTP (919) area: 392-3330

Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes is no=
t enabled (non-Cisco phones). " If you dial the toll-free numbers within th=
e 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up and dial the loca=
l access number." Please use the call-back option whenever possible and oth=
erwise dial local numbers only. The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 4=
32-9903 for the San Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the teleconference only
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html
2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Access =
Code followed by the # sign.

San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800 RTP: +1.919.392.3330

US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903 United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117

India: +91.80.4350.1111 Germany: +49.619.6773.9002

Japan: +81.3.5763.9394 China: +86.10.8515.5666

-------------------------------------------------------
For assistance
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Go to https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/mc
2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support".
To add this meeting to your calendar program (for example Microsoft Outlook=
), click this link:
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?MTID=3Dm838638a27c7d71b2004924b276=
a5ecb2

To check whether you have the appropriate players installed for UCF (Univer=
sal Communications Format) rich media files, go to https://cisco.webex.com/=
ciscosales/systemdiagnosis.php.

http://www.webex.com

CCM:+14085256800x201352957#

-------------------------------------------------------
To invite others to join
-------------------------------------------------------

....................Start copying here...................

Topic: ANIMA Conference Call
Date: Every 2 weeks on Thursday, from Thursday, 18 September 2014, to Thurs=
day, 30 October 2014
Time: 16:00, Europe Summer Time (Paris, GMT+02:00)
Meeting Number: 201 352 957
Password: anima

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the meeting online(Now from mobile devices!)
-------------------------------------------------------
1. Go to https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?MTID=3Dm6cbfe1492fcbd2ede=
942ad4c80392070
2. If requested, enter your name and email address.
3. If a password is required, enter the meeting password: anima
4. Click "Join".
5. If the meeting includes a teleconference, follow the instructions that a=
ppear on your screen.

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the audio conference only
-------------------------------------------------------
To receive a call back, provide your phone number when you join the meeting=
, or call the number below and enter the access code.
Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada): +1-866-432-9903
Call-in toll number (US/Canada): +1-408-525-6800

Access code:201 352 957
Global call-in numbers: https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/globalcallin.php=
?serviceType=3DMC&ED=3D284313317&tollFree=3D1
Toll-free dialing restrictions: http://www.webex.com/pdf/tollfree_restricti=
ons.pdf




CCP:+14085256800x201352957#

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio a=
nd any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session=
 to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such=
 recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns =
with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join th=
e session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery=
 in the event of litigation.
....................Stop copying here ...................


--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C41CC1xmbrcdx14ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Topic: ANIMA Conference Call 


Date: Every 2 weeks on Thursday, from Thursday, 18 September 2014, to =
Thursday, 30 October 2014 


Time: 16:00, Europe Summer Time (Paris, GMT+02:00) 


Meeting Number: 201 352 957 


Meeting Password: anima 


Host Key: 659729 (Use this to reclaim host privileges.) 


 


------------------------------------------------------- 


To start the online meeting 


------------------------------------------------------- 



2. Log in to your account. 


3. Click "Start Now". 


4. Follow the instructions that appear on your screen. 


 


---------------------------------------------------------------- 

ALERT – PLEASE READ: DO NOT DIAL THE TOLL FREE NUMBERS FROM WITH=
IN THE (408) OR (919) AREA CODES 


---------------------------------------------------------------- 

Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:=
 


- San Jose/Milpitas (408) area: 525-6800 


- RTP (919) area: 392-3330 


 


Dialing the WebEx toll free numbers from within 408 or 919 area codes =
is not enabled (non-Cisco phones). “ If you dial the toll-free number=
s within the 408 or 919 area codes you will be instructed to hang up and di=
al the local access number.” Please use
the call-back option whenever possible and otherwise dial local numbers onl=
y. The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San Jose/Milp=
itas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area. 


 


------------------------------------------------------- 


To join the teleconference only 


------------------------------------------------------- 


1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at 



2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or Ac=
cess Code followed by the # sign. 


 


San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800 RTP: +1.919.392.3330 


 


US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903 United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117 

 


India: +91.80.4350.1111 Germany: +49.619.6773.9002 


 


Japan: +81.3.5763.9394 China: +86.10.8515.5666 


 


------------------------------------------------------- 


For assistance 


------------------------------------------------------- 



2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support". 


To add this meeting to your calendar program (for example Microsoft Ou=
tlook), click this link: 


https://cisco.webex.com/cis=
cosales/j.php?MTID=3Dm838638a27c7d71b2004924b276a5ecb2 

 


To check whether you have the appropriate players installed for UCF (U=
niversal Communications Format) rich media files, go to htt=
ps://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/systemdiagnosis.php.



 



 


CCM:+14085256800x201352957# 


 


------------------------------------------------------- 


To invite others to join 


------------------------------------------------------- 


 


....................Start copying here................... 


 


Topic: ANIMA Conference Call 


Date: Every 2 weeks on Thursday, from Thursday, 18 September 2014, to =
Thursday, 30 October 2014 


Time: 16:00, Europe Summer Time (Paris, GMT+02:00) 


Meeting Number: 201 352 957 


Password: anima 


 


------------------------------------------------------- 


To join the meeting online(Now from mobile devices!) 


------------------------------------------------------- 



2. If requested, enter your name and email address. 


3. If a password is required, enter the meeting password: anima 


4. Click "Join". 


5. If the meeting includes a teleconference, follow the instructions t=
hat appear on your screen. 


 


------------------------------------------------------- 


To join the audio conference only 


------------------------------------------------------- 


To receive a call back, provide your phone number when you join the me=
eting, or call the number below and enter the access code. 


Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada): +1-866-432-9903 


Call-in toll number (US/Canada): +1-408-525-6800 


 


Access code:201 352 957 




 


 


 


 


CCP:+14085256800x201352957# 


 


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows au=
dio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the se=
ssion to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to=
 such recordings. If you do not
consent to the recording, discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior=
 to the start of the recording or do not join the session. Please note that=
 any such recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation=
. 


....................Stop copying here ...................


 





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From nobody Tue Sep 16 07:11:56 2014
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Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 16:11:13 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
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Dear Brian, Michael, all,

Thanks for your feedback.

As said, the weekly calls help yet we also see the limits to progress on 
the technical aspects.

The point is:
     -we have debates whether base technical issues should be 
raised/settled in the charter exercise or not.
         . if yes, then we are good to start the WG full speed.
         . if not, then when and where are we going to iron out the 
technical foundations of the working group / set a clear bottom line to 
start from? e.g. at ietf91?
My worry is that WG meetings are usually not formatted to achieve this.
So, then how do we proceed / anticipate? Should we ask for 2 slots: one 
to set the technical foundations and one to get the WG started 
(including the outcome of slot 1)...? Should we plan enough time for 
technical presentations on issues and discussions, and reach conclusions 
that allow us to continue on a sound basis...?
Alternative would have been to use an NMRG meeting slot... but to my 
knowledge, there will not be an NMRG meeting at ietf91 (one week before 
CNSM'14 conference, with NMRG meeting planned there).

Best regards, Laurent.


On 15/09/2014 22:02, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 16/09/2014 06:54, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> Laurent,
>> I don't think we can achieve a physical interim meeting before the IETF. Unless you have a suggestion where the key people can get together?
> You would all be most welcome in Auckland ;-). Seriously, I will not be able
> travel long-distance before the IETF. I think that will apply to many
> of us.
>
>> Given that the participants are all over the world, there is no time zone that suits all. Right now the working assumption was that we have alternating calls at 6am GMT one week, and 2pm GMT the other (for which I need to send another invite).
> Yes, and I think the first full meeting must be face-to-face.
>
>> For now my assumption is we continue with those calls, to further discuss next steps. Any other idea/suggestion?
> Please review the action list athttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/PrepMeetings
> We need to move forward on submitting a meeting request to the ADs, this week
> (even if it's unclear whether it will be a WG-forming BOF or a WG meeting).
>
>      Brian
>> Michael
>>
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Ciavaglia
>> Sent: 15 September 2014 18:02
>> To: anima
>> Cc: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Joel Jaeggli
>> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> For planning issues, I would like to know what is the plan for the weekly calls.
>>
>> The initial idea was to hold an interim, face-to-face, technical meeting before IETF91.
>>
>> Instead, the weekly calls have been proposed to make regular synchronization and address issues on the charter definition.
>> I think the experience helped, but the tool was not ideally suited to allow participants worldwide and discuss technical matters in more depth. Fortunately the mailing list is here as default.
>>
>> So, are we continuing with the conference calls, purposes/objectives...?
>>
>> Thanks, Laurent.
>> --
>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>
>> Laurent Ciavaglia
>> Advanced Internet Research
>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>
>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>> email:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia
>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


--------------090908040704080000050309
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    Dear Brian, Michael, all,

      

      Thanks for your feedback.

      

    As said,
        the weekly calls help yet we also see the limits to progress on
        the technical aspects. 

        

      The point is:

          -we have debates whether base technical issues should be
      raised/settled in the charter exercise or not.

              . if yes, then we are good to start the WG full speed.

              . if not, then when and where are we going to iron out the
      technical foundations of the working group / set a clear bottom
      line to start from? e.g. at ietf91? 

      My worry is that WG meetings are usually not formatted to achieve
      this.

      So, then how do we proceed / anticipate? Should we ask for 2
      slots: one to set the technical foundations and one to get the WG
      started (including the outcome of slot 1)...? Should we plan
      enough time for technical presentations on issues and discussions,
      and reach conclusions that allow us to continue on a sound
      basis...?

      Alternative would have been to use an NMRG meeting slot... but to
      my knowledge, there will not be an NMRG meeting at ietf91 (one
      week before CNSM'14 conference, with NMRG meeting planned there).

      

      Best regards, Laurent.

      

      

    
    
On 15/09/2014 22:02, Brian E Carpenter
      wrote:

    

    

      
On 16/09/2014 06:54, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:


      

        
Laurent,
I don't think we can achieve a physical interim meeting before the IETF. Unless you have a suggestion where the key people can get together?


      

      
You would all be most welcome in Auckland ;-). Seriously, I will not be able
travel long-distance before the IETF. I think that will apply to many
of us.



      

        
Given that the participants are all over the world, there is no time zone that suits all. Right now the working assumption was that we have alternating calls at 6am GMT one week, and 2pm GMT the other (for which I need to send another invite).


      

      
Yes, and I think the first full meeting must be face-to-face.



      

        
For now my assumption is we continue with those calls, to further discuss next steps. Any other idea/suggestion?


      

      
Please review the action list at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/trac/wiki/PrepMeetings
We need to move forward on submitting a meeting request to the ADs, this week
(even if it's unclear whether it will be a WG-forming BOF or a WG meeting).

    Brian


      

        
Michael

From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Ciavaglia
Sent: 15 September 2014 18:02
To: anima
Cc: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Joel Jaeggli
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls

Hello,

For planning issues, I would like to know what is the plan for the weekly calls.

The initial idea was to hold an interim, face-to-face, technical meeting before IETF91.

Instead, the weekly calls have been proposed to make regular synchronization and address issues on the charter definition.
I think the experience helped, but the tool was not ideally suited to allow participants worldwide and discuss technical matters in more depth. Fortunately the mailing list is here as default.

So, are we continuing with the conference calls, purposes/objectives...?

Thanks, Laurent.
--
Bien cordialement, Best regards,

Laurent Ciavaglia
Advanced Internet Research
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
linkedin: laurentciavaglia<http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France



------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


      

    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien cordialement, Best
            regards,

        
 

        
Laurent Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell Labs |
            Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone: +33 160 402 636 

        
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin: laurentciavaglia

        
address: Route de Villejust
            | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


--------------090908040704080000050309--


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--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C41F5Exmbrcdx14ciscoc_--


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Message-ID: <54189FC7.5000102@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:38:31 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/p_h5RjunULSoChygRcUgw9_Ubkw
Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" , Laurent Ciavaglia , Joel Jaeggli , anima 
Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
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Hi,

Let's focus on deadlines. So there are two points right now:

1. Should we now formally ask Benoit to put the charter out for
IETF review? That gives the chance to have the WG officially
formed before the IETF. After that moment, the next steps will
be in the hands of the WG Chairs (whoever they may be). If we
don't do that this week, time will begin to get short.

2. We need to make a formal request for time in Honolulu.
That also needs to go in during the next few days (Absolute
deadline is 26 Sept). It can be made as a BOF-or-WG request and
needs a simple agenda for now (mainly: Discuss Charter; Discuss
preliminary drafts).

We could ask for two slots; I'm not sure we'd get them.

Also we need a list of drafts to be submitted by 27 Oct,
which is also the deadline for the agenda.

   Brian

On 17/09/2014 02:26, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> Laurent,
> My personal opinion: The work items on the charter right now are VERY g=
eneric. So generic that I have a hard time imagining a use case where the=
y would NOT apply/work.
> I hope that
>=20
> -           the community gives us the benefit of the doubt, and lets u=
s start the work, even if there are some uncertainties right now.
>=20
> -          all the folks raising concerns keep doing so in the meeting(=
s) and make sure what we do goes in the right direction.
>=20
> -          that we can that way settle on some =E2=80=9Clowest common d=
enominator=E2=80=9D to get our work off the ground.
> For example, the trust bootstrap problem is I think well understood, an=
d several WGs are interested in using it. Let=E2=80=99s do small steps an=
d produce small useful solutions, step by step.
> Michael
>=20
> From: Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: 16 September 2014 16:11
> To: Brian E Carpenter; Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> Cc: anima; Benoit Claise (bclaise); Joel Jaeggli
> Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
>=20
> Dear Brian, Michael, all,
>=20
> Thanks for your feedback.
>=20
> As said, the weekly calls help yet we also see the limits to progress o=
n the technical aspects.
>=20
> The point is:
>     -we have debates whether base technical issues should be raised/set=
tled in the charter exercise or not.
>         . if yes, then we are good to start the WG full speed.
>         . if not, then when and where are we going to iron out the tech=
nical foundations of the working group / set a clear bottom line to start=
 from? e.g. at ietf91?
> My worry is that WG meetings are usually not formatted to achieve this.=

> So, then how do we proceed / anticipate? Should we ask for 2 slots: one=
 to set the technical foundations and one to get the WG started (includin=
g the outcome of slot 1)...? Should we plan enough time for technical pre=
sentations on issues and discussions, and reach conclusions that allow us=
 to continue on a sound basis...?
> Alternative would have been to use an NMRG meeting slot... but to my kn=
owledge, there will not be an NMRG meeting at ietf91 (one week before CNS=
M'14 conference, with NMRG meeting planned there).
>=20
> Best regards, Laurent.
>=20
> On 15/09/2014 22:02, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>=20
> On 16/09/2014 06:54, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>=20
> Laurent,
>=20
> I don't think we can achieve a physical interim meeting before the IETF=
=2E Unless you have a suggestion where the key people can get together?
>=20
> You would all be most welcome in Auckland ;-). Seriously, I will not be=
 able
>=20
> travel long-distance before the IETF. I think that will apply to many
>=20
> of us.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Given that the participants are all over the world, there is no time zo=
ne that suits all. Right now the working assumption was that we have alte=
rnating calls at 6am GMT one week, and 2pm GMT the other (for which I nee=
d to send another invite).
>=20
> Yes, and I think the first full meeting must be face-to-face.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> For now my assumption is we continue with those calls, to further discu=
ss next steps. Any other idea/suggestion?
>=20
> Please review the action list at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/anima/t=
rac/wiki/PrepMeetings
>=20
> We need to move forward on submitting a meeting request to the ADs, thi=
s week
>=20
> (even if it's unclear whether it will be a WG-forming BOF or a WG meeti=
ng).
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     Brian
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Ciavag=
lia
>=20
> Sent: 15 September 2014 18:02
>=20
> To: anima
>=20
> Cc: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Joel Jaeggli
>=20
> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA weekly calls
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> For planning issues, I would like to know what is the plan for the week=
ly calls.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The initial idea was to hold an interim, face-to-face, technical meetin=
g before IETF91.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Instead, the weekly calls have been proposed to make regular synchroniz=
ation and address issues on the charter definition.
>=20
> I think the experience helped, but the tool was not ideally suited to a=
llow participants worldwide and discuss technical matters in more depth. =
Fortunately the mailing list is here as default.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So, are we continuing with the conference calls, purposes/objectives...=
?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks, Laurent.
>=20
> --
>=20
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Laurent Ciavaglia
>=20
> Advanced Internet Research
>=20
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>=20
>=20
>=20
> phone: +33 160 402 636
>=20
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
>=20
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia=

>=20
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> Anima mailing list
>=20
> Anima@ietf.org
>=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> --
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>=20
> Laurent Ciavaglia
> Advanced Internet Research
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>=20
> phone: +33 160 402 636
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia=

> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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Subject: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03
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Dear colleagues:

Please find below my initial comments on 
draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03.

1. Summary:

The draft provides a loose introduction of some autonomic networking 
notions and then lists some design goals and non-goals.

2. General comments:

a) The title of the document is somewhat misleading, since the document 
is mostly about goals and non-goals and less about definitions.
b) The goal of autonomic networking is described {Section 2} in terms of 
reversing the swing of a pendulum that previously swung into the 
direction of replacing localized configuration and network management 
decision criteria by centralized ones (by putting "intelligence" into 
network management tools rather than devices themselves) into the 
counter-swing of putting more intelligence in devices themselves. What 
is missing, though, is a somewhat more balanced treatment of the topic: 
after all, network design exercises have to deal with many trade-offs, 
with optimal choices not a priori cast in stone. As case in point, 
consider sensor networks: here, energy savings and spotty connectivity 
favor localized decisions, whereas configuration may benefit from a more 
holistic view of the network (e.g., to manage time latency and energy 
cost, as with, e.g., 6TiSCH, or to reduce the shear amount of traffic to 
communicate micro-updates on state that may be flushed from a more 
centralized repository in one protocol pass). I would strongly suggest 
giving this entire section more substance by bringing in various 
elements of network design considerations besides configuration (e.g., 
audit/log functionality) and paying tribute to trade-offs in device 
capabilities, energy usage, time latencies, flexibility, security, ease 
of use, and the-like. Now, it reads like a "cutting the non-localized 
cord" ode no matter what. This should also include some discussion on 
whether localized decisions result in anything close to a "global 
optimum", what the effect is if some local decisions are disturbed 
(whether due to malicious act or otherwise), and whether convergence 
actually can take place. {NOTE: I do realize that this is an internet 
draft and not an academic paper, but why not at least mention some of 
this??}
c) I would also describe some other factors that may have contributed 
{Section 2} to complexity and non-flexibility, where lack of "separation 
of concern" (e.g., encoding addresses in a topology-aware fashion -- 
nice for semi-static networks, but a major headache for mobile networks, 
where flexibility comes at a premium) may unfortunately have driven part 
of the design activities in the past for whatever reason and where 
vested economical interests may have favored centralized control points 
(think: service providers, with centralized user authentication 
functionality; and with an interest in raising the entry bar for new 
network entrants, via these same control points).
d) It should be made more clear that autonomic networking has limits, 
since it cannot really deal well with device-specific functions, since 
"intent" treats all devices within a network generically and similarly 
(e.g., in their role as routers or as "members of a domain"). This may 
have repercussions when applying these notions to security architectural 
design that includes applications, since physical devices are often not 
generic, but display tailored functions, without too much redundancy and 
replication.
e) Some of the non-goals seem to be actually goals that one, for some 
reason (politics, unions?) does not want to label as such. As an 
example, the objective clearly is to significantly reduce human 
involvement in network management, for all but specialized functions 
(conflicting with Section 4.1, but implied by the last sentence hereof 
-- "more like doctors than hospital orderlies"), to reduce control by 
management rather than "network management controls" (which are 
completely different things altogether!) (Section 4.3), to sanitize the 
current complexities and thereby strive for elimination of configuration 
tools (Section 4.4) and existing network management systems (Section 
4.5). If the goal of the autonomic networking exercise is *not* to clean 
up the current complexities, do things better, with ultimate goal of 
brushing some of the current procedures/dead wood/ossified methods 
aside, why even start this effort at all? Stating goals as non-goals is 
not credible. More to the point would be that one takes into account 
"managed change", co-existence of new systems with pre-existing ones, 
etc., but that is something that applies to any development. A draft 
with goals should make a convincing case, including convincing no loss 
of manageability and anomaly control, and not pay lip service to all 
those who might be impacted by this (moreover, this is a technical 
document, isn't it?).

3. Specific comments

Section 1:
1) First sentence (p. 2): "control loops" should read "control loop"
2) First sentence (pp. 2-3): remove the word autonomic (twice), which is 
really overused here, without definition yet. Moreover, the definition 
in Section 2 is really strict, so most networks may not be labelled this 
way.
3) Forelast para (p. 3): define "as a well as northbound" (or, better, 
remove this topology-related notions and replace by "and with external 
processes" or the-like)

Section 2:
4) The word "autonomic" is defined in terms of self*, which is not that 
descriptive. Couldn't one describe this in terms of devices reaching 
localized decisions, via observation (akin to the nervous system analogue)?
5) The description of "intent" seems to preclude codifying 
device-specific functionality in, e.g., a device certificate or 
attribute certificate. (As described in the draft, it seems to codify 
only "domain" policy attributes.) As an aside, codifying domains seems 
to require careful network planning and coordination and knowing in 
advance which domain a node should belong to. I wonder to what degree 
this limits flexibility of deployment and ease of use.

Section 3:
6) First bullet (p. 6): With self-configuration, how does one 
distinguish two devices A and B or elevate one to be in control of the 
other? Shouldn't one mention somewhere privacy aspects (what if a retail 
store "discovers" may cell phone and now conveniently tracks this, since 
the cell phone has to authenticate itself first?)
7) Second bullet (p. 6): With self-healing, how does one recover from 
anomalies that cannot easily be decided by majority rules (such as with 
security)?
8) Third bullet (p. 7): With self-optimizing, shouldn't one add some 
verbiage as to local vs. global optimization and the potential impact of 
a local disturbance of the system on state? (As to the latter, I can 
imagine there to be a few algorithms that lend themselves to easy 
convergence and failure recovery, whereas with others, localized failure 
recovery is almost doomed to fail.)
9) First para Section 3.2: "forseeable" should read "foreseeable"
10) First para Section 3.2: "fully autonomic nodes and network(s)" 
(i.e., make the last word plural)
11) In Section 3.2, the priority order (where human decisions rule) 
should not necessarily be a "design principle"; rather, it should be a 
potential instantiation of a policy-setting. After all, management 
functionality should consider a mix of local self-management functions, 
plus oversight (thereby, keeping operational invariants), where 
different applications may call for different decision criteria 
prioritization and choices. (In fact, this is alluded to in the last 
para of Section 3.2, withe auto-pilot and nuclear plant scenarios.) One 
may want to add some verbiage here as well to graceful degradation and 
failure recovery.
12) First para (p. 6): replace "trustworhty" by "reliable"
13) In Section 3.3, first para, one should omit the subsentence "using a 
domain identity, for example a certificate issued by a domain 
certificate authority". After all, there are multiple ways for a device 
to evidence group membership, besides issuing domain specific certs. As 
case in point, with sensor networks such as w/HART, ZigBee, ISA SP100, 
network membership is evidenced by the use of a group key and network 
access is arbitraged by a network manager (who may coincide or 
coordinate with the originator of the group key).
14) In Section 3.3, first para, replace "common trust anchor" by 
"mutually respected trust anchor" (after all, it may be that two devices 
A and B have certs issued by different CAs, but nevertheless A respect 
B's certificate authority's CA and vice-versa).
15) In Section 3.3, 2nd para, while it is possible to have domain 
entities, this is not a priori necessary for autonomic networking: as 
already mentioned above, if network access involves a network manager, 
it could simply perform membership tests via a white list of devices 
(SubjectPublicKeyInfo, so to speak). Should one use domain identities, 
one should clearly articulate how these should be issued, what 
preplanning and coordination this requires and what the impact is on 
flexibility of deployment. This should be compared with alternatives, 
such as the use of group keys in the sensor network example above. As a 
final note, if one where to use domain identities, these could also be 
realized via attribute certs, rather than device certs.
16) In Section 3.4, I believe it has merit to replace the somewhat 
positional/almost ideological language ("decentralization above all") by 
the more neutral statement that one aims to "improve the ability to cope 
with changes". (This is also the language in the ACM 2006 survey paper 
by Dobson et al).
17) In Section 3.4, 2nd para, one should add some verbiage to the effect 
that a central repository of information has also been in the interest 
of vested interests, since this has been about control and lock-in of 
users/customers as well. It is not clear to me why an autonomic network 
*must* be able to use a centralized system in order to be deployable. 
Isn't this just lip service to the vested interests? {I can very well 
imagine, e.g., completely distributed wifi access, with local 
micropayment to pay for ongoing access, without need for any centralized 
system, except perhaps for settling those micro-payments. This seems to 
indicate that the autonomic approach could live in parallel of whatever 
central repositories/control points might be operatioal right now.}
18) In Section 3.5, I would explicitly mention audit/log/monitoring and 
failure recovery mechanisms, as well as, perhaps, aggregated 
functionality that is relevant when one zooms out (e.g., lease more 
capacity on backbone if local network generates lots of traffic).
19) Section 3.6, last sentence of first para: I would argue that some of 
these details do matter, e.g., auto-address configuration, naming of 
entities, etc.
20) Section 3.7, first para: I wonder how "autonomic network reporting" 
provides functional trouble shooting? (Faulty components, anomaly 
detection, dead link, etc.)
21) Section 3.7, last para: replace "special algorithms" by "specific 
algorithms"
22) Section 3.7, last para: while I agree one should be cognoscent to 
not create unnecessary messaging, I again have trouble to see how one 
could build a reliable system if one purportedly does not care about 
detail. With some systems, this may violate per-device requirements 
(e.g., specific safety valve info does not come through).
23) Section 3.8, first para: replace "however, they" by "however, these"
24)  Section 4, first para: replace "items which" by "items that" (also 
on numerous other locations in the draft)
25) Section 4.2, p. 9: replace "fault" by "error"

-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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Message-ID: <5418BCBE.701@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:42:06 -0400
From: Rene Struik 
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Subject: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
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Dear colleagues:

Please find below my initial comments on 
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.

1. Summary:
The draft discusses some historical context and areas where IP 
networking has moved towards more autonomic/autonomous operations and 
where gaps remain and proposes how to address some of these.

2.General comments:
a) While it is interesting to mention some historical context of 
evolution of approaches towards more autonomy (Sections 3.1-3.4), it is 
unclear how those sections relate to the proposed approach towards 
tackling gaps.
b) Section 4 would benefit from including also some head ache areas in 
security configuration, including OCSP, CRLs, policy pushes, device 
provisioning, etc.
c) Some approaches in Section 5 do not seem to depend on addressing a 
fallacy in providing autonomous operations, but seem more general good 
design principles. As an example, the potential to be able to re-use 
some well-designed components (Section 5.2) is a generally desirable 
feature, where the desired feature list (the bulleted items) mostly 
seems to be about implementing "separation of concerns" (e.g., provide 
core protocol functionality of a configuration scheme, where the data 
elements to be configured are orthogonal to the core scheme). Striving 
for less configuration (Section 5.3) is another example of a general 
desiderata item that does not seem to have too much to do with 
autonomous operation (except to say that one should avoid dependencies 
that are not necessary). Being able to harness network intelligence 
(Section 5.5) is yet another good approach towards improving management 
decisions, but that does not seem too different from stating actually 
using aggregation of information in the network, a well-known concept.
d) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one 
might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices 
synchronize information of mutual interest. If one device does not have 
current info, this automatically could result in pushing the lacking 
info onto the device.

3. Specific comments:

Section 1:
1) In the last sentence of this section, remove "in any case"

Section 2:
2) Why not move the term "automatic" to the "definition document" 
(currently, draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03), so as to 
have terminology all in one place?

Section 3:
3) In Section 3.2, first para, last sentence, replace "big enough" by 
"large enough".
4) In Section 3.5, isn't online authentication through Radius 
"automatic" rather than "autonomic"?
5) In Section 3.5, the online user authentication is in a single trust 
domain. This precludes lot of scenarios where heterogeneity is the norm, 
such as mix-and-match installation/configuration scenarios. As case in 
point of complexities of prevalent approaches (so as to point out that 
most online authentication protocols are not autonomic at all, since 
requiring lots of background infrastructure, secret handshakes, etc.), 
consider the case where a smart phone of user A with provider Verizon 
wishes to connect to an access point B of NTT (e.g., to offload cell 
phone data traffic to an 802.11 pipe). Here, to make authentication 
work, NTT and Verizon need to have a pre-existing business relationship 
and there needs to be a facility to message between Verizon's and NTT's 
server in a timely manner. Apart from technical complexities, this also 
illustrates that one requires infrastructure and business relationships 
in place (thereby, requiring pre-establishment of aligned business 
interests to make this work as well).
6) Section 3.6, p. 6, 2nd para: Replace "For example user" by "For 
example, user"
7) Section 3.6, p. 6: I would prefer untangling of lots of the nmrg 
drafts, which now often cross-reference each other (I had to read them 
all, due to have "self-citation"-- well, on the author level). Having 
all this cross-referencing makes it hard to evaluate a draft on its own 
merits and to see whether certain designs all have to be used 
simultaneously or not at all, or whether these cover modules that are 
largely independent. I would suggest removing the last two sentences of 
this section (i.e., remove "A proposal... central policy" entirely").
8) Section 3.6, p. 6: I do not understand what the draft on 
opportunistic security has to do with autonomic networking (except to 
use crypto mechanics to provide unspecific benefits). Please remove.
9) Section 3.7: While the last sentence ("Even one undefined parameter 
would be sufficient to prevent fully autonomic operation") is 
technically correct, this suggests that this is always a bad thing. I am 
concerned with any all or nothing thinking here, since one has to strike 
the right balance between centralized configuration and management and 
putting all intelligence into devices, with no decision input by 
non-local processes, which balance is hardly ever black and white, but 
most of the time a grey scale. "Everything should be made as simple as 
possible, but not simpler".

Section 4:
10) first sentence: replace "In the current" by "in current".
11) first sentence: replace "depending" by "dependent".
12) last para: replace "the current" by "typical current".
13) Section 4.1, first para: some of the complexities of "user 
authentication and accounting policies" are caused the perception that 
these should all be centralized, with an operator in the middle of each 
authentication transaction.
14) Section 4.1, 2nd para: replace "forseeable" by "foreseeable". (Also 
elsewhere.)
15) Section 4.2: I wonder how remote synch functionality and apps change 
the picture portrayed here ("currently, the end users have to manually 
manage their user accounts and authentication information when they 
switch among networks or network services"). Is this still true in a 
brave new world with Boingo, Google Synch, etc., password managers, etc.?
16) Section 4.3, last para (p. 9): replace "routing round" by "routing 
around" (line -5).

Section 5:
17) Section 5.2, bulleted list: the fourth bullet ("little 
dependency...") does not align with the pre-amble of the list ("should 
be ...").
18) Section 5.3, third line: "operationse" should read "operations".
19) Section 5.3, 2nd para: "resulst" should read "results".
20) Section 5.3: I would add some verbiage about profiles (strangely, 
not mentioned right now), since those could help in cutting down on 
configuration complexities.
21) Section 5.4, last sentence (p. 11): replace "effect" by "impact"

-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
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Thanks, Rene, for your two detailed reviews. It will take the
various authors a while to digest them, but I do appreciate such
reviews even if they create a certain amount of work.

I'm not sure whether to respond in detail here or on the NMRG list.

Regards
   Brian

On 17/09/2014 10:42, Rene Struik wrote:
> Dear colleagues:
> 
> Please find below my initial comments on
> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.




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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:54:37 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
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Hi Sheng, all,

Thanks for the agenda.

Following your advice, and in order to help the discussions during the 
time-limited call, could we all list and share the issues we think shall 
be resolved in order to have a stable and good charter for submission?

Starting the list:
-naming the drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
-disambiguation and relationships on terms: use case, functionality, 
protocols...
-use cases or functionality "selection" i.e. do we agree on a 
process/set to start the WG.
-agree on the list of deliverables and rough schedule/order (underlying 
methodology/approach issue to be solved)
-group consensus / support for the two currently application use cases 
listed in charter 00-06.

I suggest paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed or reformulated, e.g. 
[Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage] ; I think the paragraph 
"autonomic service agents will demonstrate the usage of the above 
mentioned autonomic infrastructure components with __at least__ two use 
cases" should be removed, and the decision on application areas left to 
the group when we will reach that stage ; the paragraph "The initial set 
of work items is limited to the above list" is for me a showstopper 
because it is too narrow and prescriptive. IETF is contribution and 
consensus driven, so if there are (more) contributions and the WG 
supports them and want to deliver them, why should the charter forbid it?
Realistically, the use cases currently envisaged in charter 00-06 will 
be contributed so what is the risk/fear? to have more? I would be more 
than happy with this situation.
And if more contribution/use cases are not proposed to the WG, then we 
end in the same situation...

HTH, best regards, Laurent.






On 17/09/2014 05:47, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Please find attached a proposal for our Webex meeting #6 (in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:
>
> - Comments on the charter-ietf-anima-00-06 (<18/09/2014)
> - Submit WG/BOF meeting request for IETF91 (action)
>
> Please be constructive for suggestions/comments. We are supposed to reach consensus for sending requests. Otherwise, we may leave a hole for IETF91, particularly there may not be NMRG meeting for IETF91.
>
> In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


--------------030909070306080205030402
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


  
    
  
  
    Hi Sheng, all,

      

      Thanks for the agenda.

      

      Following your advice, and in order to help the discussions during
      the time-limited call, could we all list and share the issues we
      think shall be resolved in order to have a stable and good charter
      for submission?

      

      Starting the list: 

      -naming the drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).

      -disambiguation and relationships on terms: use case,
      functionality, protocols...

      -use cases or functionality "selection" i.e. do we agree on a
      process/set to start the WG.

      -agree on the list of deliverables and rough schedule/order
      (underlying methodology/approach issue to be solved)

      -group consensus / support for the two currently application use
      cases listed in charter 00-06.

      

      I suggest paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed or reformulated,
      e.g. [Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage] ; I think the
      paragraph "autonomic service agents will demonstrate the usage of
      the above mentioned autonomic infrastructure components with _at
        least_ two use cases" should be removed, and the decision on
      application areas left to the group when we will reach that stage
      ; the paragraph "The initial set of work items is limited to the
      above list" is for me a showstopper because it is too narrow and
      prescriptive. IETF is contribution and consensus driven, so if
      there are (more) contributions and the WG supports them and want
      to deliver them, why should the charter forbid it? 

      Realistically, the use cases currently envisaged in
      charter 00-06 will be contributed so what is the risk/fear? to
      have more? I would be more than happy with this situation.

      And if more contribution/use cases are not proposed to the WG,
      then we end in the same situation...

      

      HTH, best regards, Laurent.

      

      

      

      

      

      

    
    
On 17/09/2014 05:47, Sheng Jiang wrote:

    

    

      
Dear all,

Please find attached a proposal for our Webex meeting #6 (in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:

- Comments on the charter-ietf-anima-00-06 (<18/09/2014)
- Submit WG/BOF meeting request for IETF91 (action)

Please be constructive for suggestions/comments. We are supposed to reach consensus for sending requests. Otherwise, we may leave a hole for IETF91, particularly there may not be NMRG meeting for IETF91.

In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).

Best regards,

Sheng


      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


--------------030909070306080205030402--


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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: Laurent Ciavaglia , anima 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #6
Thread-Index: Ac/SKhAg6i7OGIevTl20yj1/FkCzS///z8iAgACVoGk=
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:17:36 +0000
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF4D0CB@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com>,  <54194C4D.2010809@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Hi, Laurent,



Thanks for your constructive suggestions. I think we are on the way of reac=
hing consensus. :)



A few replies for several specific points:



>-naming the drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).

We did reach agreement to remove the draft names in version 09. But our AD =
has been very clear and insist to have them back. So, I don't think we shou=
ld repeatly argue on this. Following AD's advices would be the best choice.



>paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed or reformulated, e.g. [Potential-f=
uture-works-not-for-initial-stage]



I think it was clear from the very beginning: [Potential-future-works-not-f=
or-initial-stage] is a temporary paragraph that will be removed from the fi=
nal charter. It was there to make us focus during the stage of writing draf=
t charter.



>the paragraph "The initial set of work items is limited to the above list"=
 is for me a showstopper because it is too narrow and prescriptive.



I think you mis-understood the meaning of this sentence. It only means we w=
ould not include other items as milestones for now (or maybe first couple I=
ETF meetings). In any case, we could not include work items that have never=
 been proposed as documents. Otherwise, the WG might have the risk that nob=
ody works on these milestones.



We are *always* open and welcoming more contributions/user cases/proposals.=
 That's why we have another sentense at the later of the same paragraph: "A=
dditional documents concerning other autonomic infrastructure components, p=
olicy intent, use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged=
." Maybe we could improve the last sentense to be "Additional work items ma=
y only be added with approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-c=
hartering."



Best regards,

Sheng

________________________________
From: Laurent Ciavaglia [Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: 17 September 2014 16:54
To: Sheng Jiang; anima
Subject: Re: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #6

Hi Sheng, all,

Thanks for the agenda.

Following your advice, and in order to help the discussions during the time=
-limited call, could we all list and share the issues we think shall be res=
olved in order to have a stable and good charter for submission?

Starting the list:
-naming the drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
-disambiguation and relationships on terms: use case, functionality, protoc=
ols...
-use cases or functionality "selection" i.e. do we agree on a process/set t=
o start the WG.
-agree on the list of deliverables and rough schedule/order (underlying met=
hodology/approach issue to be solved)
-group consensus / support for the two currently application use cases list=
ed in charter 00-06.

I suggest paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed or reformulated, e.g. [Po=
tential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage] ; I think the paragraph "autono=
mic service agents will demonstrate the usage of the above mentioned autono=
mic infrastructure components with _at least_ two use cases" should be remo=
ved, and the decision on application areas left to the group when we will r=
each that stage ; the paragraph "The initial set of work items is limited t=
o the above list" is for me a showstopper because it is too narrow and pres=
criptive. IETF is contribution and consensus driven, so if there are (more)=
 contributions and the WG supports them and want to deliver them, why shoul=
d the charter forbid it?
Realistically, the use cases currently envisaged in charter 00-06 will be c=
ontributed so what is the risk/fear? to have more? I would be more than hap=
py with this situation.
And if more contribution/use cases are not proposed to the WG, then we end =
in the same situation...

HTH, best regards, Laurent.






On 17/09/2014 05:47, Sheng Jiang wrote:

Dear all,

Please find attached a proposal for our Webex meeting #6 (in both ppt and p=
df). In short, we will go through:

- Comments on the charter-ietf-anima-00-06 (<18/09/2014)
- Submit WG/BOF meeting request for IETF91 (action)

Please be constructive for suggestions/comments. We are supposed to reach c=
onsensus for sending requests. Otherwise, we may leave a hole for IETF91, p=
articularly there may not be NMRG meeting for IETF91.

In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian,=
 Laurent and myself).

Best regards,

Sheng




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


--
Bien cordialement, Best regards,

Laurent Ciavaglia
Advanced Internet Research
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
linkedin: laurentciavaglia
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

--_000_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF4D25Enkgeml512mbxchi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable










Hi, Laurent,


 


Thanks for your constructive suggestions. I think we are on the way of r=
eaching consensus. :)


 


A few replies for several specific points:


 


>-naming the drafts or not (cf thread init=
iated by Benoit).




We did reach agreement to remove the draft names in version 09. But our =
AD has been very clear and insist to have them back. So, I don't think we s=
hould repeatly argue on this. Following AD's advices would be the best=
 choice.


 


>paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed o=
r reformulated, e.g. [Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage]<=
/p>

 


I think it was clear from the very beginning: [Potential-future-works-no=
t-for-initial-stage] is a temporary paragraph that will be removed from the=
 final charter. It was there to make us focus during the stage of writing d=
raft charter.


 


>the paragraph "The initial set of wo=
rk items is limited to the above list" is for me a showstopper because=
 it is too narrow and prescriptive.


 


I think you mis-understood the meaning of this sentence. It only means w=
e would not include other items as milestones for now (or maybe first coupl=
e IETF meetings). In any case, we could not include work items that have ne=
ver been proposed as documents.
 Otherwise, the WG might have the risk that nobody works on these milestone=
s.


 


We are *always* open and welcoming more contributions/user cases/pr=
oposals. That's why we have another sentense at the later of the same parag=
raph: "Additional documents concerning other autonomic infrastructure =
components, policy intent, use cases or autonomic
 service agents are strongly encouraged." Maybe we could improve the l=
ast sentense to be "Additional work items may only be added with appro=
val from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering."


 


Best regards,




Sheng






From: Laurent Ciavaglia [Laurent.Ciavaglia=
@alcatel-lucent.com]

Sent: 17 September 2014 16:54

To: Sheng Jiang; anima

Subject: Re: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #6








Hi Sheng, all,



Thanks for the agenda.



Following your advice, and in order to help the discussions during the time=
-limited call, could we all list and share the issues we think shall be res=
olved in order to have a stable and good charter for submission?



Starting the list: 

-naming the drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).

-disambiguation and relationships on terms: use case, functionality, protoc=
ols...

-use cases or functionality "selection" i.e. do we agree on a pro=
cess/set to start the WG.

-agree on the list of deliverables and rough schedule/order (underlying met=
hodology/approach issue to be solved)

-group consensus / support for the two currently application use cases list=
ed in charter 00-06.



I suggest paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed or reformulated, e.g. [Po=
tential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage] ; I think the paragraph "a=
utonomic service agents will demonstrate the usage of the above mentioned a=
utonomic infrastructure components with
_at least_ two use cases" should be removed, and the decision o=
n application areas left to the group when we will reach that stage ; the p=
aragraph "The initial set of work items is limited to the above list&q=
uot; is for me a showstopper because it is too
 narrow and prescriptive. IETF is contribution and consensus driven, so if =
there are (more) contributions and the WG supports them and want to deliver=
 them, why should the charter forbid it?


Realistically, the use cases
currently envisaged in charter 00-06 will be contributed so what is =
the risk/fear? to have more? I would be more than happy with this situation=
.

And if more contribution/use cases are not proposed to the WG, then we end =
in the same situation...



HTH, best regards, Laurent.















On 17/09/2014 05:47, Sheng Jiang wrote:






Dear all,

Please find attached a proposal for our Webex meeting #6 (in both ppt and p=
df). In short, we will go through:

- Comments on the charter-ietf-anima-00-06 (<18/09/2014)
- Submit WG/BOF meeting request for IETF91 (action)

Please be constructive for suggestions/comments. We are supposed to reach c=
onsensus for sending requests. Otherwise, we may leave a hole for IETF91, p=
articularly there may not be NMRG meeting for IETF91.

In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian,=
 Laurent and myself).

Best regards,

Sheng





 


_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima<=
/a>







-- 





Bien cordialement, Best regards,


 


Laurent Ciavaglia


Advanced Internet Research


Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent


 


phone: +33 160 402 636



email:
laure=
nt.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com


linkedin:
laure=
ntciavaglia


address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France














--_000_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF4D25Enkgeml512mbxchi_--


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From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
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Sheng,

Thanks for your clarifications. if the changes are implemented as you 
said, I am fine.
FYI, we ahd a good and long ;) call with Michael to discuss in detail 
the issues I listed and most of them are provisionally "solved", at 
least on my side. Other persons interested in the WG will of course 
express their views.
However, we did not manage to get around one or two issues because going 
one direction to solve the issue open the door to other risks... so we 
will have to decide tomorrow/on the list what is the decision on those 
issues.

I think Michael (if time allows) will send some synthesis before the 
call tomorrow.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

On 17/09/2014 12:17, Sheng Jiang wrote:
>
> Hi, Laurent,
>
> Thanks for your constructive suggestions. I think we are on the way of 
> reaching consensus. :)
>
> A few replies for several specific points:
>
> >-naming the drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
>
> We did reach agreement to remove the draft names in version 09. But 
> our AD has been very clear and insist to have them back. So, I don't 
> think we should repeatly argue on this. Following AD's advices would 
> be the best choice.
>
> >paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed or reformulated, e.g. 
> [Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage]
>
> I think it was clear from the very beginning: 
> [Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage] is a temporary 
> paragraph that will be removed from the final charter. It was there to 
> make us focus during the stage of writing draft charter.
>
> >the paragraph "The initial set of work items is limited to the above 
> list" is for me a showstopper because it is too narrow and prescriptive.
>
> I think you mis-understood the meaning of this sentence. It only means 
> we would not include other items as milestones for now (or maybe first 
> couple IETF meetings). In any case, we could not include work items 
> that have never been proposed as documents. Otherwise, the WG might 
> have the risk that nobody works on these milestones.
>
> We are *always* open and welcoming more contributions/user 
> cases/proposals. That's why we have another sentense at the later of 
> the same paragraph: "Additional documents concerning other autonomic 
> infrastructure components, policy intent, use cases or autonomic 
> service agents are strongly encouraged." Maybe we could improve the 
> last sentense to be "Additional work items may only be added with 
> approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering."
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Sheng
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Laurent Ciavaglia [Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* 17 September 2014 16:54
> *To:* Sheng Jiang; anima
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #6
>
> Hi Sheng, all,
>
> Thanks for the agenda.
>
> Following your advice, and in order to help the discussions during the 
> time-limited call, could we all list and share the issues we think 
> shall be resolved in order to have a stable and good charter for 
> submission?
>
> Starting the list:
> -naming the drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
> -disambiguation and relationships on terms: use case, functionality, 
> protocols...
> -use cases or functionality "selection" i.e. do we agree on a 
> process/set to start the WG.
> -agree on the list of deliverables and rough schedule/order 
> (underlying methodology/approach issue to be solved)
> -group consensus / support for the two currently application use cases 
> listed in charter 00-06.
>
> I suggest paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed or reformulated, 
> e.g. [Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage] ; I think the 
> paragraph "autonomic service agents will demonstrate the usage of the 
> above mentioned autonomic infrastructure components with __at least__ 
> two use cases" should be removed, and the decision on application 
> areas left to the group when we will reach that stage ; the paragraph 
> "The initial set of work items is limited to the above list" is for me 
> a showstopper because it is too narrow and prescriptive. IETF is 
> contribution and consensus driven, so if there are (more) 
> contributions and the WG supports them and want to deliver them, why 
> should the charter forbid it?
> Realistically, the use cases currently envisaged in charter 00-06 will 
> be contributed so what is the risk/fear? to have more? I would be more 
> than happy with this situation.
> And if more contribution/use cases are not proposed to the WG, then we 
> end in the same situation...
>
> HTH, best regards, Laurent.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 17/09/2014 05:47, Sheng Jiang wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Please find attached a proposal for our Webex meeting #6 (in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:
>>
>> - Comments on the charter-ietf-anima-00-06 (<18/09/2014)
>> - Submit WG/BOF meeting request for IETF91 (action)
>>
>> Please be constructive for suggestions/comments. We are supposed to reach consensus for sending requests. Otherwise, we may leave a hole for IETF91, particularly there may not be NMRG meeting for IETF91.
>>
>> In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sheng
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
> -- 
>
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>
> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>
> Advanced Internet Research
>
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>
> phone: +33 160 402 636
>
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
> 
>
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


--------------050704030902070705020101
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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    Sheng,

      

      Thanks for your clarifications. if the changes are implemented as
      you said, I am fine.

      FYI, we ahd a good and long ;) call with Michael to discuss in
      detail the issues I listed and most of them are provisionally
      "solved", at least on my side. Other persons interested in the WG
      will of course express their views.

      However, we did not manage to get around one or two issues because
      going one direction to solve the issue open the door to other
      risks... so we will have to decide tomorrow/on the list what is
      the decision on those issues.

      

      I think Michael (if time allows) will send some synthesis before
      the call tomorrow.

      

      Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

      

    
    
On 17/09/2014 12:17, Sheng Jiang wrote:

    

    

      
      
      

        
Hi, Laurent,

        
 

        
Thanks for your constructive suggestions. I think we are on
          the way of reaching consensus. :)

        
 

        
A few replies for several specific points:

        
 

        
>-naming the drafts or not (cf
            thread initiated by Benoit).

        

        
We did reach agreement to remove the draft names in version
          09. But our AD has been very clear and insist to have them
          back. So, I don't think we should repeatly argue on this.
          Following AD's advices would be the best choice.

        
 

        
>paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be
            removed or reformulated, e.g.
            [Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage]

        
 

        
I think it was clear from the very beginning:
          [Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage] is a temporary
          paragraph that will be removed from the final charter. It was
          there to make us focus during the stage of writing draft
          charter.

        
 

        
>the paragraph "The initial set
            of work items is limited to the above list" is for me a
            showstopper because it is too narrow and prescriptive.

        
 

        
I think you mis-understood the meaning of this sentence. It
          only means we would not include other items as milestones for
          now (or maybe first couple IETF meetings). In any case, we
          could not include work items that have never been proposed as
          documents. Otherwise, the WG might have the risk that nobody
          works on these milestones.

        
 

        
We are *always* open and welcoming more contributions/user
          cases/proposals. That's why we have another sentense at the
          later of the same paragraph: "Additional documents concerning
          other autonomic infrastructure components, policy intent, use
          cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged."
          Maybe we could improve the last sentense to be "Additional
          work items may only be added with approval from the
          responsible Area Director or by re-chartering."

        
 

        
Best regards,

        


          Sheng

        

        

          

          
From:
              Laurent Ciavaglia [Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]

              Sent: 17 September 2014 16:54

              To: Sheng Jiang; anima

              Subject: Re: [Anima] Agenda for Webex meeting #6

            

          

          
Hi Sheng, all,

              

              Thanks for the agenda.

              

              Following your advice, and in order to help the
              discussions during the time-limited call, could we all
              list and share the issues we think shall be resolved in
              order to have a stable and good charter for submission?

              

              Starting the list: 

              -naming the drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).

              -disambiguation and relationships on terms: use case,
              functionality, protocols...

              -use cases or functionality "selection" i.e. do we agree
              on a process/set to start the WG.

              -agree on the list of deliverables and rough
              schedule/order (underlying methodology/approach issue to
              be solved)

              -group consensus / support for the two currently
              application use cases listed in charter 00-06.

              

              I suggest paragraph(s) in 00-06 should be removed or
              reformulated, e.g.
              [Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage] ; I think
              the paragraph "autonomic service agents will demonstrate
              the usage of the above mentioned autonomic infrastructure
              components with
              _at least_ two use cases" should be removed, and
              the decision on application areas left to the group when
              we will reach that stage ; the paragraph "The initial set
              of work items is limited to the above list" is for me a
              showstopper because it is too narrow and prescriptive.
              IETF is contribution and consensus driven, so if there are
              (more) contributions and the WG supports them and want to
              deliver them, why should the charter forbid it?
              

              Realistically, the use cases
              currently envisaged in charter 00-06 will be
              contributed so what is the risk/fear? to have more? I
              would be more than happy with this situation.

              And if more contribution/use cases are not proposed to the
              WG, then we end in the same situation...

              

              HTH, best regards, Laurent.

              

              

              

              

              

              

            
            
On 17/09/2014 05:47, Sheng
              Jiang wrote:

            

            

              
Dear all,

Please find attached a proposal for our Webex meeting #6 (in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:

- Comments on the charter-ietf-anima-00-06 (<18/09/2014)
- Submit WG/BOF meeting request for IETF91 (action)

Please be constructive for suggestions/comments. We are supposed to reach consensus for sending requests. Otherwise, we may leave a hole for IETF91, particularly there may not be NMRG meeting for IETF91.

In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).

Best regards,

Sheng


              

              

              

              
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


            

            

            
-- 

              
              

                
Bien cordialement, Best
                    regards,

                
 

                
Laurent Ciavaglia

                
Advanced Internet
                    Research

                
Bell Labs |
                    Alcatel Lucent

                
 

                
phone: +33 160 402 636
                  

                
email:
                  laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

                
linkedin:
                  laurentciavaglia

                
address: Route de Villejust |
                    91620 Nozay | France

              

            

          

        

      

    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


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Subject: [Anima] Fwd: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1
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Dear all,

FYI.
The LIME initiative is referring to ANIMA in its draft charter:
     "Related work: -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect"

Might be worth to synchronize at some point with the (future) WG.

Best regards, Laurent.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1
Date: 	Wed, 17 Sep 2014 01:11:22 +0000
From: 	Qin Wu 
To: 	Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" 
CC: 	Gregory Mirsky , Pradeep Jain 
, Mishael Wexler , 
Jouni , "huubatwork@gmail.com" 
, Sam Aldrin , "Romascanu, 
Dan (Dan)" , Ravi Shekhar , 
Tom Taylor , Tom Herbert 
, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" 
, Daniel King 



Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design 
team to write the Charter proposal after a few internal discussions.

Here is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the 
list (See below or attached).

Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that 
refers to tools created for network management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

     Examples of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring

     tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

     management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the

     network, and network provisioning tools.

     Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning

     tools.

     Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity

     check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to

     monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network element.

An operator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 
through 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence 
of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular 
layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network 
technologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

Traditionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved 
through a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together 
with technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter 
have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without 
coordination between them and on proprietary interfaces for 
configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has 
made it very difficult to:

-- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications

     related to defects and failures

-- quickly identify root causes

-- monitor performance on an end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects, faults and network failures between the

     different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

     localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been 
necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology 
specific management interface at each layer, then try to bring the 
results together into a coherent picture.

There is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG 
modules instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and 
can more safely be used for configuration as well as information 
retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling 
OAM operations management in a more uniform fashion and creating 
management interfaces that are more friendly to a centralized management 
function than the present set.

The objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent 
configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used 
to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this 
by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its 
initial task. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, 
capacity, accounting, performance, security) management areas, and will 
not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but also consider management at 
higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

(1) where the centralized management function communicates directly with 
the managed elements;

(2) where the centralized management function communicates with a local 
management function.

The first case takes priority.

Development of one or more management information models may be 
undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work forward.

Out of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope:

   -- development of any YANG modules.

   -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized 
management function and the managed elements or local managers.

Related work:

   -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect

   -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ...

*·¢¼þÈË:*Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] *´ú±í *Benoit Claise
*·¢ËÍʱ¼ä:*2014Äê9ÔÂ16ÈÕ18:58
*ÊÕ¼þÈË:*lime@ietf.org
*Ö÷Ìâ:*[Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to 
read the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current 
situation.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with 
different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons.
2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each 
layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element 
in the network path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM 
mechanisms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that 
there are already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for 
consistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a 
charter proposal.

Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)


-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France




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    Dear all,

      

      FYI. 

      The LIME initiative is referring to ANIMA in its draft charter:

          "Related work: -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual
      discovery aspect"

      

      Might be worth to synchronize at some point with the (future) WG.

      

      Best regards, Laurent.

    
    


      

      -------- Original Message --------
      

        
          

            Subject:
            
            [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1
          

          

            Date: 
            Wed, 17 Sep 2014 01:11:22 +0000
          

          

            From: 
            Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
          

          

            To: 
            Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "lime@ietf.org"
              <lime@ietf.org>
          

          

            CC: 
            Gregory Mirsky <gregory.mirsky@ericsson.com>,
              Pradeep Jain <pradeep@nuagenetworks.net>, Mishael
              Wexler <mishael.wexler@huawei.com>, Jouni
              <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "huubatwork@gmail.com"
              <huubatwork@gmail.com>, Sam Aldrin
              <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com>, "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)"
              <dromasca@avaya.com>, Ravi Shekhar
              <rshekhar@juniper.net>, Tom Taylor
              <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com>, Tom Herbert
              <therbert@google.com>,
              "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com"
              <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Daniel King
              <daniel@olddog.co.uk>
          

        
      

      

      

      
      
      
      

        
Hi, all

        
Based on ADs
            suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design
            team to write the Charter proposal after a few internal
            discussions.

        
 

        
Here is the initial
            version of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See
            below or attached).

        
 

        
Layer Independent OAM
            Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

        
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        
Operations,
            Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that
            refers to tools created for network management.  Quoting
            from RFC 6291:

        
 

        
    Examples of tools
            related to "operations" are performance monitoring

        
    tools used for
            service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

        
    management tools
            used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the

        
    network, and
            network provisioning tools.

        
 

        
    Examples of
            "administration" tools are network discovery and planning

        
    tools.

        
 

        
    Examples of
            "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity

        
    check, loopback,
            link trace, and other tools that can be used to

        
    monitor and
            diagnose failures in a network or network element.

        
 

        
An operator's network
            is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3
            in the first instance, but made more complex by the
            emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference].
            Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of
            multiple segments of differing network technologies, such as
            MPLS at one point, IP at another.

        
 

        
Traditionally, fault
            management and path maintenance have been achieved through a
            series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols
            together with technology and layer specific management
            interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules
            developed independently without coordination between them
            and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited
            scope of of each management interface has made it very
            difficult to:

        
-- suppress large
            numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications

        
    related to
            defects and failures

        
-- quickly identify
            root causes

        
-- monitor
            performance on an end-to-end basis

        
-- correlate status
            defects, faults and network failures between the

        
    different layers
            to improve efficiency of defect and fault

        
    localization and
            provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary
            to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology
            specific management interface at each layer, then try to
            bring the results together into a coherent picture.

        
 

        
There is now a move
            afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules
            instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2,
            and can more safely be used for configuration as well as
            information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the
            possibility of modeling OAM operations management in a more
            uniform fashion and creating management interfaces that are
            more friendly to a centralized management function than the
            present set.

        
 

        
The objective of the
            LIME initiative is to encourage consistent configuration,
            reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used to
            manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It
            will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM
            developments as its initial task. These guidelines will
            cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting,
            performance, security) management areas, and will not be
            limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but also consider
            management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be
            considered:

        
 

        
(1) where the
            centralized management function communicates directly with
            the managed elements;

        
 

        
(2) where the
            centralized management function communicates with a local
            management function.

        
 

        
The first case takes
            priority.

        
 

        
Development of one or
            more management information models may be undertaken if it
            is seen as necessary to move the work forward.

        
 

        
Out of scope
            initially, but potentially within subsequent scope:

        
  -- development of
            any YANG modules.

        
  -- development of a
            solution for mutual discovery of the centralized management
            function and the managed elements or local managers.

        
 

        
Related work:

        
  -- ANIMA very
            interested in the mutual discovery aspect

        
  -- Metro Ethernet
            Forum work on ...

        
 

        
 

        

          

            
·¢¼þÈË: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org]
              ´ú±í
                
              Benoit Claise

              ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2014Äê9ÔÂ16ÈÕ 18:58

                ÊÕ¼þÈË: lime@ietf.org

                Ö÷Ìâ: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

          

        

        
 

        
Dear all,

            

            LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case
            you want to read the archives).

            As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the
            current situation. 
            

        
During the last IETF meeting, there were
            various discussions with different audiences regarding this
            OAM initiative.
            

            

            

        
Here is what we concluded:

            1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for
            multiple reasons. 

            2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM
            information at each layer, in order to correlate
            information, and detect the faulty element in the network
            path

            3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for
            the OAM mechanisms makes sense.
            

            4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice.
            Note that there are already some efforts in that direction

            5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be
            welcome for consistency sake

        
We also believe that there is sufficient
            interest to start working on a charter proposal.

        
Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

            

            

      

      

      
-- 

        
        
        
        

          
Bien
              cordialement, Best regards,

          
 

          
Laurent
                Ciavaglia

          
Advanced
              Internet Research

          
Bell
              Labs | Alcatel Lucent

          
 

          
phone:
              +33 160 402 636 

          
email:
            laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

          
linkedin:
            laurentciavaglia

          
address:
              Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

        

      

      

    

    

  


--------------080505030301020204000006--

--------------000301060502070408070304
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; name="Layer Independent OAM
 Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME) Drafted Charter
 Proposal.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename*0="Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environm";
	filename*1="ent (LIME) Drafted Charter Proposal.txt"

Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for network management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

    Examples of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring
    tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault
    management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the
    network, and network provisioning tools.

    Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning
    tools.

    Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity
    check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to
    monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network element.

An operator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network technologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

Traditionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordination between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:
-- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications
    related to defects and failures
-- quickly identify root causes
-- monitor performance on an end-to-end basis
-- correlate status defects, faults and network failures between the
    different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault
    localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management interface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

There is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuration as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces that are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present set.

The objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting, performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

(1) where the centralized management function communicates directly with the managed elements;

(2) where the centralized management function communicates with a local management function.

The first case takes priority.

Development of one or more management information models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work forward.

Out of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope:
  -- development of any YANG modules.
  -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the managed elements or local managers.

Related work:
  -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect
  -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ...

--------------000301060502070408070304
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252";
	name="Attached Message Part"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part"

_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime


--------------000301060502070408070304--


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: Brian E Carpenter , Rene Struik 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> Carpenter
> Sent: 17 September 2014 01:20
> To: Rene Struik
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
>=20
> Thanks, Rene, for your two detailed reviews. It will take the various aut=
hors
> a while to digest them, but I do appreciate such reviews even if they cre=
ate
> a certain amount of work.

I second Brian. It'll make the docs better. Thanks for  the feedback!=20
=20
> I'm not sure whether to respond in detail here or on the NMRG list.

This is a recurring question. I suggest we stick to the "correct" group: Fo=
r the nmrg drafts, we discuss on nmrg, and for the anima work on anima. Any=
thing else is hard to understand or results in lots of cross posting. I thi=
nk the two domains are now more or less clearly separated.=20

Thoughts?=20
Michael
=20
> Regards
>    Brian
>=20
> On 17/09/2014 10:42, Rene Struik wrote:
> > Dear colleagues:
> >
> > Please find below my initial comments on
> > draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.
>=20
> 
>=20
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Subject: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03
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Dear colleagues:

Please find below my initial comments on 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03.

1. Summary:
The draft discusses some historical context and areas where IP 
networking has moved towards more autonomic/autonomous operations and 
where gaps remain and proposes how to address some of these.

2. General comments:
a) The introduction provides a concrete thesis that the "non-goal" 
described in draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03 is 
actually a real goal, since it describes the dependency on (i) many 
different staff requiring very detailed training and skills; (ii) 
coordination of [...] staff [being] difficult and often inefficient.
b) The potential to have a "dry run" option in an otherwise operational 
network seems useful, but sounds more like a logical flow separation 
issue, where the operational network and the "dry run" version run in 
"different colors". This could be realized if one could have more than 
one instantiation of a protocol running at the same time, with logical 
separation being provided by color coding messaging and configuration 
data. {BTW - to my knowledge, RoLL does not really provide this right 
now, even though it knows the concept (but I may be wrong here)}. What 
this all has to do with the negotiation protocol and model argued in the 
draft is unclear, though, except for color labeling of instantiations.
c) There should be some discussion on the impact of device-to-device 
negotiation protocols on the global state of the system. After all, the 
order in which local two-device negotiations take place may have an 
impact on more global state changes (e.g., if the configuration 
parameter dependencies form a cycle in a graph [synchronization of time 
parameters comes to mind, here]). This relates to the third bullet of 
"behavior model" (Section 4, p. 9).
d) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one 
might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices 
synchronize information of mutual interest. If one device does not have 
current info, this automatically could result in pushing the lacking 
info onto the device.
e) The "negotiation" protocol should practice "separation of concerns" 
(e.g., provide core protocol functionality of a configuration scheme, 
where the data elements to be configured are orthogonal to the core 
scheme). The protocol should also be as independent of routing protocol 
dependent features, including addressing that may correlate with network 
topology (since contrary to the objective of being a reusable block 
without all these interdependencies that increase complexity).
f) The behavior model (Section 4) contains a huge set of bullet points, 
in which it is hard to discover a common design philosophy. Aren't the 
main objectives covered by the items #d and #e above?

3. Specific comments:

Section 1:
1) First sentence: replace "and networks have" by "as networks have".
2) p.2, second para: replace "currently require" by "require" (i.e., 
remove second occurrence of "currently").

Section 2:
3) Second sentence: replace "in both directions" by "in either direction".
4) I am not sure whether the *only* focus of routing is reachability. 
Wouldn't efficiency of reach and meeting all kind of QoS measures, such 
as timeliness, energy use, link stability, be part of the deal? {I am 
not a routing expert, but in sensor networks lots of other metrics have 
been considered for a long while.}
5) Fifth para, p. 4: with respect to security handshakes, doesn't a 
protocol such as TLS already provide the algorithm suite negotiation 
feature mentioned in the draft?
6) Some of the bidirectional configuration has been provided for years 
by industrial control specifications, such as w/HART, where the network 
manager pushes configuration data to a joining device, while the joining 
device pushes network-relevant statistics to the network manager. While 
this has been implemented using non-IETF protocols, this presents a use 
case. Just a thought:  it would be good to articulate whether DHCP can 
be used to provide bidirectional configuration between two devices, by 
instantiating it either way (if not possible: summarize why; if so: 
indicate shortcomings doing it this way).
7) Section 2.1, last sentence: do I have to (sadly) conclude there is 
absolutely no IETF protocol out there where negotiation has not been 
designed with strict dumb client- know-all server setting in mind? 
{sorry - I do not know all the zillions of RFCs by heart.}
8) Section 2.3: come of the traffic engineering may only be effective if 
one has a more global view of capacities of different links in the 
network (e.g., determining capacity via the Ford-Fulkerson algorithm). 
As case in point, with 6TiSCH, there is a more central "mothership" that 
assigns time slots for individual nodes to communicate, so as to manage 
time latencies and energy efficiency of communications. This is just to 
illustrate that, at least with some applications, one cannot assume that 
local negotiations lead to (close to) optimal network metrics. Here, one 
should probably also add some verbiage as to aggregated functionality 
that is relevant when one zooms out (e.g., lease more capacity on 
backbone if local network generates
lots of traffic).
9) Section 2.4: One example where local negotiation may have real 
economical angles is hand-off of cell phone traffic to a wifi pipe, 
where pricing info and micro-payments could potentially be negotiated 
locally, without any direct involvement (or control!) of a central entity.
10) Section 2.5, first bullet: replace "authentic identity for each 
device" by "authentic device info".
11) Section 2.5, first bullet: authentic device info may indeed be a 
public key or a certificate, but also, e.g., a device identifier, such 
as an EUI-64 address, provided this is bound to a public key and 
identifiers are not reused across devices.
12) Section 2.5, last para: I would argue that, e.g., local negotiation 
of some economical token that affords network access (micro-payment 
style) should also be considered. This is just to illustrate that one 
has to think broader than just considering the network as a monolithic 
structure and consider dynamically changing, heterogeneous network 
settings as well. As case in point, what if part of the internet 
backbone is connected to users via a street lamp post network: in that 
case one does not easily get end-to-end connectivity without considering 
mobile users, city infrastructure, and back-bone (all potentially owned 
and/or operated by different entities, without necessarily secret 
handshakes and hundreds of pages of contract fine-print in place 
beforehand).

Section 3:
13) The first para may not be typical for sensor-style networks, where 
some "mothership" functionality may trigger part of this (see also 
previous notes with sensor-style angle, such as #8 above).

Section 4:
14) First bullet item: Shouldn't the negotiation protocol also be 
independent of routing addressing schemes that may be topology-dependent 
as well?
15) First para (on p.9): It is entirely unclear what "restrictive 
security infrastructure" means. Please elaborate.
16) Second para (on p. 9): This para seems to imply that inter-domain 
trust can be handled in a more sloppy fashion than intra-domain trust. 
This seems to be highly dangerous thinking and would make it almost 
impossible to reason about security provisions over the lifetime of a 
device and/or network.
17) The second bullet item (p. 9) discusses uniform patterns at the 
wrong abstraction level. The point is to design the protocol practicing 
"separation of concerns" (e.g., provide
core protocol functionality of a configuration scheme, where the data 
elements to be configured are orthogonal to the core scheme). The 
precise encoding (TLV-style or otherwise) should not be important at 
this point.
18)  Third bullet item (p. 9): It is not a priori clear that a 
multi-party negotiation can always be easily realized as an ordered 
sequence of device-to-device protocol instantiations, since this 
iteration may not always converge.
19) Fourth bullet item (p. 9): it is not clear why one should stay away 
from instantiating a negotation protocol with a vector-based approach. 
In various use cases, such as sensor networks, minimizing the number of 
communication flows (e.g., to reduce energy consumption and to reduce 
time latency) is highly desirable, as is a desire to make configuration 
changes resemble an "atomic change".
20) Fifth bullet item (pp. 9-10): the delegation feature mentioned 
raises all kind of questions re denial of service attacks, message 
storms, and the-like. Moreover, it raises potential privacy concerns re 
"gossip" behavior.
21) Sixth bullet item (p. 10): Role and functions should not necessarily 
be preconfigured; rather, these should be assigned dynamically, during 
the lifecycle of the device (e.g., during manufacturing, during device 
or system integration, during operational use, etc.). Support for 
dynamic lifecycle management should be the guiding principle here.
22) Seventh bullet item (p. 10): Whether or not a "compromise" will be 
negotiated or not entirely depends on configuration-specific data 
elements. In many applications, "chatty" behavior may be undesirable 
(e.g., with constrained devices and networks).
23) Eight bullet item (last para, p. 10): This para prescribes too much 
detail. Besides, it seems to suggest a total order of to be negotiated 
data elements (witness "should be chosen between the suggested values 
from ...").
24) Ninth bullet item (first bullet on p. 11): replace "reached through" 
by "established through".
24) Tenth bullet item (2nd bullet on p. 11): It is not clear what the 
fallback condition should be should the negotiation fail to converge. If 
a multi-party negotiation would be realized as an ordered sequence of 
two-party negotiations, would this then imply that one also has to roll 
back those? This item seems to require lots more thought.
25) Twelfth bullet item (forelast bullet on p. 11): It is unclear why 
negotiation of policy-relevant information could not be realized using 
the negotiation protocol. Wasn't the whole point of having a generic 
negotiation protocol that one could use the core protocol, independent 
of which data elements one would wish to negotiate?
26) Thirteenth bullet item (last bullet of this section): Again, it is 
entirely unclear why management monitoring, alerts, and intervention 
should not be able to use the negotiation protocol.

Section 5:
27) Second para: there are lots of use case scenarios where one does not 
have strict separation of users devices and network devices. What about 
peer-to-peer networking, where data is pushed via one smart phone to the 
next? What about sensor network settings, where each device may be a 
router (as is the case with 6TiSCH devices)? Etc., etc.? I think the 
client-server
thinking that resulted in lots of rigidities (as also mentioned in 
Section 2.1) should not be advocated here again; instead, one should 
depart from this thinking!
28) Fourth para: as already mentioned (see remark #10 above), it is 
sufficient to have authentic device info.
29) Fifth para: the notion of having a network-wide database of public 
keys seems to point into the direction of having an online (or even 
inline) CA. It is certainly possible to only involve remote/centralized 
trust entities in an offline/sparse in time fashion.
30) Fifth para: This is the first time the draft refers to "carrier 
networks". Why refer only to those? I thought the scope of 
auto-/self-/etc. management and low-overhead/low-complexity management 
was broader this and applies accross the board. Please remove reference 
to carrier network or include many more example networks, so as to 
illustrate one tries to address a central management problem here.


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , "CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT)" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
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Hi Dimitri,
Sorry for a late reply, but your emails are not easy to digest :)   But I t=
hink I found one point that may get us further:
You write that we are "missing i) the actual "negotiation protocols are the=
 set of rules that govern the interaction."  Actually, that is by design! :=
)  The rules that govern the interaction are defined in the autonomic servi=
ce agents, which to design are outside scope for this WG. So I think we CAN=
 focus on the bits on the wire, and that is exactly what the draft does.
In other words: At this point in time, the autonomic infrastructure focuses=
 on the low level interactions. The way I see it:
We are following an "iterative" approach:

1)      take two use cases (ie autonomic service agents that would use an a=
utonomic infrastructure)

2)      Figure out what the infrastructure needs to provide as "services" t=
o those autonomic service agents

3)      write some drafts to keep track of what the ANI needs to do

4)      select more use cases, go to 2)
Bottom line: we add functionality over the iterations. Over time we'll also=
 increase the value of the An infrastructure. We only "call it a day" when =
we are satisfied to have done something useful that's worth sticking into a=
n RFC.
Can we live with the first iteration not being complete nor perfect, and ad=
ding more functionality in a second round?
Michael
From: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [mailto:dimitri.papadimitriou@alcate=
l-lucent.com]
Sent: 12 September 2014 17:06
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT)
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today

Michael,
If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this and not=
hing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this"  can you expl=
ain me how to deal with the following situation. I am interested in the fol=
lowing part
[specific goals]
o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic function=
s
I have tried to explain during the call that underneath "negotiation" sits =
the problem by which a collection of interacting agents aim at reaching agr=
eement in order to realize an "intent" is a key aspect of the work. Renumbe=
ring/address management being outside my scope/interest, how practically th=
e charter does allow me to work in this item when it states:
The working group will initially consider a simple example as a test case f=
or further work.
o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network
There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter aims def=
ining such component but for instance behind the term negotiation we unders=
tand different things Section 2.3 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-co=
nfig-negotiation-ps-03 is about base information exchange (more precisely a=
 base description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation =
object. Thus missing i) the actual "negotiation protocols are the set of ru=
les that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible types of part=
icipants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third parties), the negotiatio=
n states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation closed), the events that cause =
state transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and the valid acti=
ons of the participants in particular states (e.g., which can be sent by wh=
om, to whom and at when)." and ii) the agents' reasoning models which provi=
de "the decision making apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve =
their objectives. The sophistication of the model is determined by the prot=
ocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the range of operation=
s that can be performed on it"
Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be viewed=
 as a "distributed search through a space of potential agreements about som=
e joint problem [...] To improve the efficiency of the negotiation process,=
 the recipient needs to be able to provide more useful feedback on the prop=
osals it receives than just whether or not it agrees to them. This feedback=
 can take the form of a critique (comments on which parts of the proposal t=
he agent likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative proposal =
generated in response to a proposal). From such feedback, the proposer shou=
ld be able to generate a proposal which is more likely to lead to an agreem=
ent (if it chooses to do so).

[Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On argumentatio=
n-based negotiation, Proceedings of the International Workshop on Multi-Age=
nt Systems, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

[Jen2001] N.R.Jennings et al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Chall=
enges; Group Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 1=
99-215
Please also take a look at the following paper on Negotiation in Multi-Agen=
t Systems from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings, Ch=
ris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation in multi-agent systems=
. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September 1999), pp.285-289.

Thanks,
-dimitri.

From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringer =
(mbehring)
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today

Laurent,
Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the discussion=
 AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on everybody to provide =
such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think we need to re-do those notes=
, since the notes AND your (and Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail th=
read in the archive. Do you agree?
Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and clearer w=
hen we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this an=
d nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this". (And we=
 say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points you raise MUST be raise=
d, but I think we'll raise them when we discuss the solutions.
Michael

From: Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today

Dear Michael,

Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)

Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
    --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited to coor=
dinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, avoid oscill=
ations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is what we need to de=
fine (i.e. the negotiation functionality boundaries) before specifying the =
protocol(s).

2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
    --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop features are =
in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. these should be th=
e minimal basis for the group scope.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:

https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff09=
27d7a93



Michael



--







Notes from the ANIMA Call

11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT



Attendees

Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sh=
eng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)



Notes

Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.



List of items where we have not consensus:

1) Methodology of this working group

Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.



2) Selection of use cases

At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use ca=
ses?



3) Common infrastructure components

Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use case=
s.



Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?

Yes. (no objection)



Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven =
approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.

Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first und=
erstand communication layer.

Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different mode=
s. Negotiation for example.

Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there a=
re many potential solutions.

Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.

Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear wh=
ich the requirements are for such a protocol.

Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define prec=
ise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.

Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. =
If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end=
 up in an open protocol.

Brian: Completely agree.

Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEF=
ORE the charter or once we are chartered?

Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, =
and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.

Sheng: This will take too long.

Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as =
needed?

Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That =
needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.

Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. T=
here should be a general requirements doc.

Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.

Dan: Need an intermediate state.

Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture"=
. NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had a=
n autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.

Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?

Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.

Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the us=
e cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define=
 boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for exa=
mple bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration),=
 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.

Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't =
know them yet.

Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.

Laurent: The self-* features are in.

Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.







_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



--
Bien cordialement, Best regards,

Laurent Ciavaglia
Advanced Internet Research
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
linkedin: laurentciavaglia
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C43F2Dxmbrcdx14ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











=
Hi Dimitri,



=
Sorry for a=
 late reply, but your emails are not easy to digest
J   But I think I found one point that=
 may get us further:


=
You write t=
hat we are “missing i) the actual “negotiation protocols are th=
e set of rules that govern the interaction.”  Actually,
 that is by design! J  The rules that gover=
n the interaction are defined in the autonomic
 service agents, which to design are outside scope for this WG. So I think =
we CAN focus on the bits on the wire, and that is exactly what the draft do=
es.



=
In other wo=
rds: At this point in time, the autonomic infrastructure focuses on the low=
 level interactions. The way I see it:



=
We are foll=
owing an “iterative” approach:



1)    =
; 
take two use cases (ie autonomic service agents tha=
t would use an autonomic infrastructure)


2)    =
; 
Figure out what the infrastructure needs to provide=
 as “services” to those autonomic service agents


3)    =
; 
write some drafts to keep track of what the ANI nee=
ds to do


4)    =
; 
select more use cases, go to 2)



=
Bottom line=
: we add functionality over the iterations. Over time we’ll also incr=
ease the value of the An infrastructure. We only
 “call it a day” when we are satisfied to have done something u=
seful that’s worth sticking into an RFC.



=
Can we live=
 with the first iteration not being complete nor perfect, and adding more f=
unctionality in a second round?



=
Michael









From:
 Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) [mailto:dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel-luc=
ent.com]


Sent: 12 September 2014 17:0=
6

To: Michael Behringer (mbehr=
ing); CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT)

Cc: anima@ietf.org

Subject: RE: [Anima] Notes f=
rom the ANIMA Call Today






=
 <=
/font>


Michael,   


If
the cha=
rter has been sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and nothing=
 else”, whereas the intent is “our initial focus is this”
 can you explain me how to deal with the followin=
g situation. I
am interested in the following part


[specific=
 goals]


o Definit=
ion of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic
 functions


I have tried to explain during=
 the call that underneath “negotiation” sits the problem
 by which a collection of interacting=
 agents&nbs=
p;aim at reaching agreement in order to realize an “intent”
 is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address management being o=
utside my scope/interest, how practically the charter does allow me to work=
 in this item when it states:


The worki=
ng group will initially consider a simple example as a
 test case for further work. 


o Definit=
ion of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network


There is however a broader tec=
hnical point of concern, the charter aims defining such
 component but for instance behind the term negotiation we understand diffe=
rent things Section 2.3
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is abo=
ut base information exchange (more precisely a base description of what [Je=
n1998] [Jen2001] describes as the
 negotiation object. Thus missing i) the actual “negotiation protocols are the set of rule=
s that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible types of partic=
ipants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant
 third parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation =
closed), the events that cause state transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bi=
d accepted), and the valid actions of the participants in particular states=
 (e.g., which can be sent by whom,
 to whom and at when).” and ii) the agents’ reasoning models which provide “th=
e decision making apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve their =
objectives. The sophistication of the model is determined
 by the protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the range =
of operations that can be performed on it”


Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be v=
iewed as a “distributed search through a space of potential
 agreements about some joint problem […] To improve the efficiency of=
 the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be able to provide more us=
eful feedback on the proposals it receives than just whether or not it agre=
es to them. This feedback can take the
 form of a critique (comments on which parts of the proposal the agent like=
s or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative proposal generated in =
response to a proposal). From such feedback, the proposer should be able to=
 generate a proposal which is more
 likely to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do so).=




 



[Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On argumen=
tation-based negotiation,
Proceedings of the International Works=
hop on Multi-Agent Systems, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.



 



[Jen2001]
N.R.Je=
nnings
 et al., Automated Negotiation: P=
rospects, Methods and Challenges;
Group Decision and Negotiation, 
March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 199-215<=
o:p>



Please also take a look at the following paper
on Negotiation in Multi-Agent Systems from
Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, N=
ick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999.
 Negotiation in multi-agent systems.&=
nbsp;Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September 1999),
 pp.285-289. 



 



Thanks,



-dimitri.



 









From:
 Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf=
.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Behring=
er (mbehring)

Sent: Friday, September 12, =
2014 3:06 PM

To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAUR=
ENT); 
anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes f=
rom the ANIMA Call Today






=
 =
;


=
Laurent,



=
Thanks for =
the corrections. It’s difficult to participate in the discussion AND =
try to catch everything correctly, so I count on
 everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don’t think =
we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and Dimitri’s=
) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do you agree?



=
Personally,=
 I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and clearer when we̵=
7;re actually arguing about a protocol or method.



=
I think the=
 charter has been sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and not=
hing else”, whereas the intent is “our initial focus
 is this”. (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the p=
oints you raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll raise them when we =
discuss the solutions.



=
Michael


=
 =










From:
 Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]


Sent: 12 September 2014 14:5=
3

To: Michael Behringer (mbehr=
ing); 
anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes f=
rom the ANIMA Call Today






=
 <=
/font>


Dear Michael,



Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)



Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)

1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

    --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is =
not suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve confl=
icts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be considered. this is =
what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality
 boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).

 

2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

    --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-=
chop features are in: configuration, protection, healing and optimization. =
these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.



Thanks, best regards, Laurent.




On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) =
wrote:






Below are the notes I took, and the rec=
ording is here: 


https://cisco.webex=
.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 


 


Michael


 


--


 


 


 


Notes from the ANIMA Call


11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT<=
/font>


 


Attendees

Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascan=
u, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (no=
tes)


 


Notes


Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Prese=
nted his current view on things. 


 


List of items where we have not consens=
us:


1) Methodology of this working group


Two different approaches at the moment,=
 bottom up and top down. 


 


2) Selection of use cases


At which step do we plan the working gr=
oup? What should be the first use cases? 


 


3) Common infrastructure components


Sheng: We should first work on those co=
mponents, BEFORE working on use cases. 


 


Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure =
versus autonomic service agents? 


Yes. (no objection) <=
/font>


 


Dimitri: We have service agents that ex=
change information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driv=
en approach. 


Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in pr=
oposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 


Dimitri: Communication is part of curre=
nt charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. =



Laurent: The current negotiation propos=
al is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 


Michael: The charter doesn't say the cu=
rrent draft is the chosen one. 


Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditio=
ns are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a pro=
tocol. 


Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job =
of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a propos=
ed protocol. 


Dimitri: Differnt means to translate ne=
gotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we ma=
y go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 


Brian: Completely agree. 


Michael: Problem statement seems to be:=
 Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartere=
d? 


Laurent: We need to be explicit that th=
e charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group t=
o translate this into protocols. 


Sheng: This will take too long. 


Michael: Can we start with the simple c=
ommunication methods, and expand as needed? 


Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based,=
 gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the wo=
rk. The charter must allow this. 


Dan: Can include in charter about infra=
structure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements d=
oc. 


Michael: ADs didn't want to start with =
a lengthy requirements process. 


Dan: Need an intermediate state. <=
/o:p>


Dimitri: Charter needs to include "=
;validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starti=
ng point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. L=
ike for intserv/diffserv. 


Michael: Can we not start with a simple=
 unicast negotiation method? 


Laurent: Need to worry about oscillatio=
n on a higher level. 


Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to d=
erive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Nee=
d a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We shou=
ld select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1)=
 Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on sel=
f-healing for example. 


Sheng: So far no reporting area. There =
are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 


Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* featur=
es. 


Laurent: The self-* features are in. 


Michael: Need to document the different=
 viewpoints. 


 


 


 


_______________________________________=
________


Anima mailing list


Anima=
@ietf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=



 




=
 <=
/font>





-- 




Bien cordialement, Best regards,



 



Laurent Ciavaglia



Advanced Internet Research


Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent


 



phone: +33 160 402 636




email:
laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lu=
cent.com



linkedin:
laurentciavaglia



address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France














--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C43F2Dxmbrcdx14ciscoc_--


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Open Issues, take 2
Thread-Index: Ac/SmXGQtdVr2kzDRimX9jT+hmnEcw==
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:08:01 +0000
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Subject: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2
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Today Laurent and I (same time zone, luxury!) discussed for almost 2 hours =
on how to make progress with the charter.=20

Laurent had already started a list of open issues, and we continued to work=
 on that list, below is the output. I wanted to go through all the recent e=
mails to see whether we missed something, but haven't had the time yet. So =
the below text is likely incomplete.

I propose the following:=20

- in the below text, we separated the issues in "critical - must be fixed n=
ow", "can be resolved in WG", and "can resolve now".=20
- Let's make sure all issues are on this list. So if you raised an issue an=
d it's not reflected here, please send a mail.=20
   Please refrain from a complete charter re-write at this point, but be sp=
ecific what should be changed where and how  :-)=20
- When we have all the issues on the list:
  + let's resolve the last category right now; those are the easy ones. Sho=
uld be editorial work.=20
  + let's IGNORE the middle category for now, let's fix those once we have =
a WG (or once we cleared the "critical" list)
  + and let's focus the discussion NOW on the critical ones.=20

So, for the call tomorrow, shall we focus on the first category and try to =
bring them to closure?=20

Thoughts?=20
Michael=20

----

Open Issues

Critical Issues / Potential Show-Stoppers
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

- perception that only 2 use cases are allowed.=20
  response: The 2 mentioned will be working group drafts; other documents
  are ENCOURAGED, but as individual submissions.=20
  ALL use case owners, including individual submissions are encouraged to v=
alidate
  the proposed autonomic functionalities and report potential issues.=20
  Note: Add to charter?: Other use cases / solutions can be brought in with=
 a=20
        Charter change after the first phase is completed.=20
  Note: not clear in charter right now that the first 2 use cases will be W=
G drafts.
        not clear that they may never progress....=20

- Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
- Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene) =20
  pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code.=20

- the term "solution" (Dimitri)=20
  (Dimitri, is there a simple way to fix this without re-doing the entire c=
harter?)


Other Issues / Can resolve in WG later
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

- Naming the explicit drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).

Not critical because charter is clear that other documents are acceptable.=
=20

- Not enough supporters on the list (Rene)
  (Not sure what we can do about this now)


Can resolve now
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
- change: (Laurent)
   Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic functio=
ns
  to:=20
   Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
   Definition of a negotiation functionality for autonomic functions

  - clarify in mile stones (new text refers to location of draft, in bracke=
ts)=20

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts (see "specific goals=
")
           - Mar IETF 92nd -=20
Apr 2015 - adoption of solution draft(s) (see "use cases")
Jun 2015 - WGLC for discovery and negotiation protocol
           - Jul IETF 93rd -=20
Aug 2015 - submit discovery and negotiation protocol to IESG (standards tra=
ck)
Aug 2015 - adoption of overview draft
Oct 2015 - WGLC for trust bootstrap draft
Oct 2015 - WGLC for solution draft(s)=20
           - Nov IETF 94th -=20
Dec 2015 - submit trust bootstrap draft to IESG (standards track)
Dec 2015 - submit solution draft(s) to IESG (standards track)
Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft
Jan 2016 - WGLC for overview draft
           - Mar IETF 95th -=20
Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards track)

- delete section "Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage"
  (I think we already agreed on that)


- Division in camps (Rene)
  (we're trying to fix this...)
=20


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Subject: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
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Dear colleagues:

Please find below my initial comments on 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02

1. Summary:
The draft discusses a generic two-part configuration discovery and 
negotiation protocol aimed to be used as a reusable component of an 
autonomic infrastructure.

2. General comments:
a) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one 
might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices 
synchronize information of
mutual interest. If one device does not have current info, this 
automatically could result in pushing the lacking info onto the device. 
(NOTE: see also same general comment #d on review of 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03.)
b) The "negotiation" protocol should practice "separation of concerns" 
(e.g., provide core protocol functionality of a configuration scheme, 
where the data elements to be
configured are orthogonal to the core scheme). The protocol should also 
be as independent of routing protocol dependent features, including 
addressing that may
correlate with network topology (since contrary to the objective of 
being a reusable block without all these interdependencies that increase 
complexity). (NOTE: see also same general comment #e on review of 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03.)
c) The negotiation protocol should consider in its design 
privacy-related aspects, no just in exchange of configuration-relate 
data, but also with "outsourcing" counter part functionality (as 
suggested in Section 3.3, top of p. 6).
d) Heterogeneous trust domain use cases should guide the design 
(contrary to what Section 11 claims)

3. Specific comments:

Section 1:
1) Second para: it is unclear why the assumption is made that each 
network device has a hierarchical superior (this is not even possible, 
since the set of devices is a finite set). If this assumption is 
essential, this greatly reduces the appeal of the protocol design, since 
again making network topology related assumptions (something autonomous 
networking was supposed to side step where possible, so as to reduce 
complexities in current network management approaches). The last 
sentence of this para seems to indicate that this assumption is not 
necessarily, though. If so, please remove!
2) Third para: it is unclear how the CDNP scheme presented in the draft 
can be used to implement control decision processes between networks. 
The protocol seems to be a device-to-device protocol, so the most one 
can achieve is some negotiation between (single-device) representatives 
of different networks (no matter how one codifies this "representative" 
notion).
3) Fourth para (bottom of p. 3):  One should take into account "managed 
change", co-existence of new systems with pre-existing ones (something 
that applies to any development), so should add some verbiage as to how 
to cater to mixed deployment settings, where the CDNP scheme proposed in 
this draft is not universally implemented (even if this is only during 
initial roll-out).

Section 2:
4) Second bullet: devices do not generally spontaneously start discovery 
(at least, not to my knowledge). As an example, with IEEE 802.11 or IEEE 
802.15 networks, this may be triggered by receiving a beacon message 
from a router or other network component.
5) Third bullet: isn't the "negotiation counterpart" usually called the 
"respondent"? (Note: I am mostly familiar with security specification 
verbiage, where one usually specifies protocols in terms of 
initiator/responder interactions.)
6) Fourth bullet: while it is certainly possible to identify a device by 
a device-specific public key, this is certainly not the only way (and 
may trigger questions as to persistence, what happens if a device does 
not have a key yet or this key changes). (NOTE: The general area of how 
to identify nodes seems to require more thought, since this notion comes 
up over and over again in IETF NMRG drafts, with imprecise definition of 
what one wishes to accomplish, privacy aspects, and general device 
lifecycle management aspects. I do think that manufacturing devices so 
as to allow authentication via public-key based techniques has lots of 
merit, last but not least being that it reduces trust lifecycle 
management to the management of device identities, but this certainly 
requires somewhat more thought re details. {This note is tangential to 
the negotiation protocol per se, but I just put this in, so that we do 
not forget to explore this further.})

Section 3:
7) First sentence: replace "platform" by "scheme" (I don't think a 
protocol is a platform).
8) Second para: There should be some discussion on the impact of 
device-to-device negotiation protocols on the global state of the 
system. After all, the order in which local two-device negotiations take 
place may have an impact on more global state changes (e.g., if the 
configuration parameter dependencies form a cycle in a graph 
[synchronization of time parameters comes to mind, here]). (NOTE: this 
is the same remark as general comment #c on review of 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03).
9) Second para: Isn't the negotiation protocol supposed to be a 
peer-to-peer protocol, or is the nuance between initiator/responder and 
peer-to-peer so small one could use this interchangeably?
10) Second para: the current para seems to suggest that what is 
negotiated is triggered by a request by the initiator. What about making 
this mutual, where the two entities involved mutually negotiate 
configuration parameters based on data elements of common interest. This 
ties into general remark #a above, where one simply makes this into a 
mutual synchronization scheme.
11) First para: if one tries and be IP-version agnostic, this may mean 
that one cannot assume specific notions, such as cryptographically 
generated addresses (CGA) that are only available in IPv6. Shouldn't one 
finally cut the cord and simply not deal with IPv4 considerations (one 
cannot drag the entire history of the universe forward infinitely!).
12) Section 3.2, second para: Sometimes, the initiator of a negotiation 
protocol does not need to discover its partner in crime (see, e.g., 
remark #4 above).
13) Section 3.2, second para: Negotiation protocols may result in 
exposure of lots of privacy-sensitive information (and allow 
traceability of devices). I think some of this needs to be explored in 
more detail in this draft (currently, privacy is not mentioned at all). 
A parallel with TLS-related discussions comes to mind here, where 
question was to encrypt or not encrypt SNI information. There seem to be 
lots of use cases of discovery protocols where one does not necessarily 
want to expose (at least not wirelessly) the nature of a discovery or 
the identity of the parties involved.
14) Section 3.3, last para of p. 5: It is unclear why the responder 
starts the actual negotiation process. Shouldn't one consider the 
responder's message as the second protocol flow of a scheme instantiated 
by the requester in the first place? It seems that having the responder 
initiate the negotiation add more protocol round-trips than necessary 
(and also seems to suggest that the first and second protocol flow are 
logically decoupled, rather than offering the requestor assurances that 
flow #2 is cryptographically tied to flow #1).
15) Section 3.3, first para of p. 6: The outsourcing of counter part 
functionality may have privacy implications ("gossip" behavior) and may 
potentially result in denial of service attacks and message storms. This 
seems to require lots more careful consideration.
16) Section 3.3, end of first para, p. 6: The notion of having to rely 
on a hierarchically upstream device seems highly unattractive (see also 
remark #1 above).
17) Section 3.4: the cert-based security mechanism tenets (bullet items 
1-3) seem to suggest a signature-based approach, where counters provide 
for replay protection. While signed messages can indeed provide for 
source authentication and authorization check of the originator (policy 
enforcement), this seems to be a somewhat adhoc approach: why not make 
the protocol into a real cryptographic challenge response protocol, 
where protocol flows are logically tied together, where one gets 
timeliness for free, etc.???
18) Section 3.4: the second para (after the bullet list) seems to 
suggest an operator-run CA model. Hooray: another mechanism for 
operators to lock-in customers (this time under the pretext of 
security)! This seems to be counter to consumer interest and "network 
management neutrality" (as I argued during the ITF-90 BoF session in 
Toronto). Moreover, this is also counter to flexibility in design 
considerations, where the operator of some trust functionality could be 
completely orthogonal to the operator of a/the network.
19) Section 3.4, second para: in my mind, the suggestion that a 
negotiation protocol run by an operator, that for a small office or for 
a home network are different design exercises seems to be a very bad 
omen. I thought the objective was to design a generic negotiation 
protocol (see draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03), where the exchange 
data elements would be orthogonal to the core functionality. I fail to 
see why one cannot design a single protocol that could cater to all 
these cases, without lock-in by design. One can very well design 
flexible schemes, where only the instantiation may be different 
depending on deployment scenario.
20) Section 3.4, third para: The mechanism described here exposes lots 
of privacy- or traceability-related information; moreover, it is hard to 
assess the storage requirement ramifications of "certificate stores". (I 
keep musing about whether mechanisms defined would be useable in 
constrained network settings.)
21) Section 3.4, first para on p. 7: the public key sizes seem to 
suggest RSA keys. I am hoping that we only use ECC-based keys anno 2014 
(which have a far more modest size: 32 bytes for 128-bit crypto strength).
22) Section 3.4.1: this entire section can be summarized as as follows: 
(i) a mechanism for protocol version control is [should be] provided; 
(ii) a mechanism for identification of crypto algorithm suites to be 
used with an instantiation of a specific protocol is [should be] 
provided. Note: right now, item #(i) is not described in the text. BTW - 
I am not a big fan of having yet another protocol where one provides a 
"Chinese menu" set of options (to use Peter Gutmann's phrase). We should 
pick a strong default, root out anything suspicious/low-grade, and stick 
with it if at all possible. All this "option-itis" is completely counter 
autonomous network and in conflict with allegiance to having fewer 
configuration options (as proclaimed in Section 5.3 of 
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01).
23) Section 3.4.1, third para: the last sentence seems to mix design 
philosophy and security policy enforcement details. It is unclear why, 
again, one tries to bring in network topology related factors in a 
design that is supposed to be generic and, while doing it, even 
hard-codes security policies.
24) Section 3.4.2, second para: replace "authority" by "authenticity".
25) Section 3.4.2, third para: it is unclear what the storage impact of 
the local trust cert records are. This seems to be a design choice that 
requires more study, since seemingly trading state vs. computational cost.
26) Section 3.4.2, firs para on p. 8: if signature verification is so 
expensive, this makes me wonder why the protocol uses an ordered 
sequence of signed messages in the first place. Why not look at less 
costly provisions? (See also remark #17 above).
27) Section 3.4.2, first para on p. 8: the entire protocol design seems 
to depend on having a trusted clock on each device, which (in my mind) 
is an unrealistic assumption (this is my perspective on the question 
posed in Section 10, last bullet of p. 21), and leads to lots of 
complications due to clock skew (see the entire Section 3.4.3). Why do 
through all this trouble with an adhoc protocol, instead of simply using 
well-known mutual challenge response protocols that have been 
well-studied, have clear security properties and do not require clocks 
(at least not for this purpose).
28) Section 3.4.3: the procedure for preventing replay attacks by 
checking last kept time info seems to be insecure: what happens if one 
has t1 < t2 and one receives info in sequence t1, t2, t1 or t2, t1, t1?
29) Section 3.5, second para: replace "confguration" by "configuration"
30) Section 3.5, second para: this para suggests that the normal course 
of action is a one-sided configuration protocol. If so, isn't that case 
already covered by DHCP? I think the entire design should be a mutual 
protocol with strong cryptographic assurances (including that of 
timeliness, authentication, etc.) and with (orthogonal hereto) 
possibility to exchange data elements of mutual interest to one's 
heart's content. These strong assurances should not be watered down even 
if some corner cases may allow this in the case only unilateral 
configuration is required.

Section 4:
31) Why would there be a need for new address info, rather than using an 
addressing mechanism already defined? (To me, this sounds like a sure 
way to realize very slow adoption with any device that does not 
recognize the newbee address yet.)

Section 5:
32) Second para: The mechanism by which root certificates end up with 
devices and by which certificates are generated and distributed is not 
described. This requires more work, esp. since there is lots of protocol 
design work where this aspect has been ignored or not paid sufficient 
tribute to, thereby preventing wide-scale adoption. Public key 
technologies only find wide-spread use if the entire lifecycle can be 
implemented in a secure, flexible, scalable, and low-cost way.
33) Last para, p. 11: replace "SHA-1" by "SHA-2" (one does not wish to 
use crypto constructs that have been on the "to be depricated" list 
since 2005 in new protocol design work anno 2014).
33) last para, p. 11: replace "hash algorithm" by "hash function".

Section 6:
34) The motivation for introducing session identifiers is missing. In 
particular, it is unclear whether this is motivated by security 
considerations or, e.g., by desire to segregate different instantiations 
of the protocol. {Note: since it is unclear (to me) what the claimed 
security properties of the protocol are, it is hard to assess at this 
point (although, I could try and guess here of course)}

Section 7:
35) First sentence: replace "vaiable" by "variable".
36) In device tag description (p. 12), replace "deviceas" by "devices".
37) In options description (p. 12), replace "definded" by "defined".
38) The description of the Request message seems to suggest the use of 
the unicast address of a known "counterpart" (if known). This begs the 
question whether this unicast address is independent of network topology 
considerations (for otherwise, one gets dependencies one wishes to avoid 
in again via the addressing back door).
39) With Section 7.4, it is unclear why one needs this message. Isn't 
the negotiation ending message superfluous (it certainly seems to be, 
from purely cryptographic perspective, but I may have missed something 
here).
40) With Section 7.5, the Confirm-Waiting message description seems to 
suggest that recursive layering is possible. It would be good to 
investigate whether this has a negative impact on state machines and, 
e.g., local storage cost.

Section 8:
41) In Section 8.7, the algorithm identifiers (HA-Id, SA-Id) seem to be 
unwieldy (2 octets each). Moreover, the only choice should be a profile 
choice as to signature scheme (e.g., ECDSA-P256-SHA-256). Listing these 
ids separately seems an invitation to "Chinese menu" afficionados to 
bring in a complete Cartesian product of optional behaviors. Since 
interoperability and desire for automatic behavior is aimed for, this 
tendency should be rooted out.
42) Timestamps could be avoided with a properly designed challenge 
response protocol (see also remark #27).
43) All options in Section 8.8 onwards seem to be specific encodings of 
data elements that are not common for the core protocol (these can be 
viewed as extensions to serve, e.g., routing confirmation material, 
etc.). The draft should more clearly indicate which options are part of 
the core scheme and which are simply encoding of data elements of mutual 
interest to the two entities executing the negotiation scheme.

Section 9:
44) Second para: if the objective options are to be known in the initial 
protocol flow (request message), this protocol is not truly a mutual 
configuration negotiation protocol: mutual protocols depend on inputs re 
desired data elements from the responding party as well.

Section 10:
45) Third bullet: while TLS could be used, this can hardly be called an 
example of simple design (please have a look at the TLS mailing list, if 
one believes otherwise). Moreover, TLS does not offer an easy way to 
synchronize data elements. Or, does one seriously consider to use the 
TLS record layer here???
46) Third bullet: replace "build in" by "built-in".
47) Fifth bullet, p. 21: this is an unrealistic assumption (see remark 
#27 above). Moreover, the topic of providing a secure, loosely 
synchronized clock is not easy to realize, certainly not for devices in 
constrained, spotty networks.
48) Seventh bullet (2nd one on p. 22): replace "uses cases" by "use cases".
49) Ninth bullet item (4th bullet on p. 22): one counter example (in 
application domain) would be a device looking for a wireless printer in 
a business hotel (where there may be more than one).

Section 11:
50) The assumption that CDNP is intended to be deployed in a single 
administrative domain (homogeneous trust domain) is questionable; 
moreover, having to rely on a single CA within a trust domain does not 
suddenly make this an approach that does not require a trusted third 
party (this seems to be a misconception about what the wording "third 
party" means in the crypto and security literature). One should strive 
for a protocol that works in a heterogeneous trust domain setting (where 
the device looking for wireless printer scenario in remark #49 is 
already an example). Even if one ultimately operates devices in a single 
trust domain, this does not mean that none of the settings it operated 
in prior to the operational usage states was heterogeneous. Please, 
please: let us stop thinking in semi-static models of how the world 
operates; one should think any-to-any device mappings with heterogeneous 
networks throughout the *entire* lifecycle of devices and networks.

Section 12:
51) On p. 24, please remove references to SHA-1 and RSASSA-PKCS1-v1.5 
(which, honestly, should be deprecated for now). BTW - even if one still 
would like to use RSA, one should not use the v1.5 schemes...

-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


From nobody Wed Sep 17 12:35:18 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
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Hi -

>From: Rene Struik 
>Sent: Sep 17, 2014 12:14 PM
>To: "anima@ietf.org" 
>Subject: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
...
>a) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one 
>might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices 
>synchronize information of
>mutual interest. If one device does not have current info, this 
>automatically could result in pushing the lacking info onto the device.
...

"Synchronization" seems rather more limited than "negotiation."
"Most current" is only one of many factors that might be used
in a distributed decision about which parameter values / options
to employ.

Randy


From nobody Wed Sep 17 13:07:55 2014
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Hi Randy:

Perhaps at first sight, but not necessarily upon closer inspection. 
Please feel free to challenge me in terms of converting a negotiation 
protocol of your choice into a specific instantiation of a generic 
synchronization scheme (assuming I understand the details of your 
challenge).

No matter interpretation aspects of wording, there seems to be a need 
for a generic (mutual) synchronization scheme, something I would like to 
be in the SoW.

I can imagine the remaining few pages of my review of the 
config-negotiation-protocol-2 takes some time; nevertheless, indeed, 
doing the above exercise would have some merit by itself.

Best regards, Rene


On 9/17/2014 3:35 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: Rene Struik 
>> Sent: Sep 17, 2014 12:14 PM
>> To: "anima@ietf.org" 
>> Subject: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
> ...
>> a) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one
>> might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices
>> synchronize information of
>> mutual interest. If one device does not have current info, this
>> automatically could result in pushing the lacking info onto the device.
> ...
>
> "Synchronization" seems rather more limited than "negotiation."
> "Most current" is only one of many factors that might be used
> in a distributed decision about which parameter values / options
> to employ.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
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From nobody Wed Sep 17 13:10:54 2014
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Thanks for this review too. This is a document that will,
I think, be very considerably revised or maybe completely
transformed in future, so for now I will just focus on one
point:

> 7) Section 2.1, last sentence: do I have to (sadly) conclude 
> there is absolutely no IETF protocol out there where negotiation 
> has not been designed with strict dumb client- know-all server 
> setting in mind? {sorry - I do not know all the zillions of RFCs by heart.}

Actually this question is why we included section 3 (existing
protocols) and I would be really interested to know what we
missed there. There are a few protocols that are more symmetrical
in their nature (RSVP, GIST, HNCP) but none of them seemed quite right.

    Brian


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:24:18 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Cc: Randy Presuhn , anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
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I would expect that synchronisation could be implemented as
a special case of negotiation. The opposite is fairly clearly
not true.

Regards
   Brian

On 18/09/2014 08:07, Rene Struik wrote:
> Hi Randy:
> 
> Perhaps at first sight, but not necessarily upon closer inspection.
> Please feel free to challenge me in terms of converting a negotiation
> protocol of your choice into a specific instantiation of a generic
> synchronization scheme (assuming I understand the details of your
> challenge).
> 
> No matter interpretation aspects of wording, there seems to be a need
> for a generic (mutual) synchronization scheme, something I would like to
> be in the SoW.
> 
> I can imagine the remaining few pages of my review of the
> config-negotiation-protocol-2 takes some time; nevertheless, indeed,
> doing the above exercise would have some merit by itself.
> 
> Best regards, Rene
> 
> 
> On 9/17/2014 3:35 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
>> Hi -
>>
>>> From: Rene Struik 
>>> Sent: Sep 17, 2014 12:14 PM
>>> To: "anima@ietf.org" 
>>> Subject: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
>> ...
>>> a) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one
>>> might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices
>>> synchronize information of
>>> mutual interest. If one device does not have current info, this
>>> automatically could result in pushing the lacking info onto the device.
>> ...
>>
>> "Synchronization" seems rather more limited than "negotiation."
>> "Most current" is only one of many factors that might be used
>> in a distributed decision about which parameter values / options
>> to employ.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2
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On 18/09/2014 05:08, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:



> 
> Critical Issues / Potential Show-Stoppers
> =========================================
> 
> - perception that only 2 use cases are allowed. 
>   response: The 2 mentioned will be working group drafts; other documents
>   are ENCOURAGED, but as individual submissions. 
>   ALL use case owners, including individual submissions are encouraged to validate
>   the proposed autonomic functionalities and report potential issues. 

Of course. That should be part of the process of reviewing the work
in progress.

>   Note: Add to charter?: Other use cases / solutions can be brought in with a 
>         Charter change after the first phase is completed. 

Actually, just as additional milestones - that is easier than
a formal charter change.

>   Note: not clear in charter right now that the first 2 use cases will be WG drafts.

Isn't it? I thought the milestones were clear enough.

>         not clear that they may never progress.... 

Don't get that point??

> 
> - Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and

Because of pre-existing work, and because they are relatively
simple and fundamental.

> - Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)  
>   pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code. 

Exactly.

> - the term "solution" (Dimitri) 
>   (Dimitri, is there a simple way to fix this without re-doing the entire charter?)

I thought it was a fairly neutral choice of word. If it isn't perceived
as neutral, we could try "specification" in most places, but I don't
really see what it changes.

> 
> Other Issues / Can resolve in WG later
> ======================================
> 
> - Naming the explicit drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
> 
> Not critical because charter is clear that other documents are acceptable. 
> 
> - Not enough supporters on the list (Rene)
>   (Not sure what we can do about this now)
> 
> 
> Can resolve now
> ===============
> - change: (Laurent)
>    Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic functions
>   to: 
>    Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>    Definition of a negotiation functionality for autonomic functions
> 
>   - clarify in mile stones (new text refers to location of draft, in brackets) 
> 
> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts (see "specific goals")
>            - Mar IETF 92nd - 
> Apr 2015 - adoption of solution draft(s) (see "use cases")
> Jun 2015 - WGLC for discovery and negotiation protocol
>            - Jul IETF 93rd - 
> Aug 2015 - submit discovery and negotiation protocol to IESG (standards track)
> Aug 2015 - adoption of overview draft
> Oct 2015 - WGLC for trust bootstrap draft
> Oct 2015 - WGLC for solution draft(s) 
>            - Nov IETF 94th - 
> Dec 2015 - submit trust bootstrap draft to IESG (standards track)
> Dec 2015 - submit solution draft(s) to IESG (standards track)
> Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft
> Jan 2016 - WGLC for overview draft
>            - Mar IETF 95th - 
> Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards track)
> 
> - delete section "Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage"
>   (I think we already agreed on that)

Really? I mean I don't mind, because anything not in the charter
is not in scope, but I don't see the harm in it.
> 
> 
> - Division in camps (Rene)
>   (we're trying to fix this...)

    Brian


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Hello,

Le 17/09/2014 22:44, Brian E Carpenter a écrit :

>> - Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
>
> Because of pre-existing work, and because they are relatively
> simple and fundamental.
>
>> - Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)
>>    pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code.
>
> Exactly.

This is not the first time I read this on this list and would appreciate 
some enlightenments.

I see two possible use of running code
1/ for experimentation, to develop practical (as opposed to theoretical) 
understanding of the behaviours
2/ for selling it

In the former case I would expect the associated Internet-Draft to be 
progressed as Informational, sharing, for the benefit of the community, 
the knowledge which was developed through experimentation.
In the latter case, I fail to understand the type of community feedback 
which is expected on a productised code.

Thank you

-m


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2
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Martin,

On 18/09/2014 09:32, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> Hello,
>=20
> Le 17/09/2014 22:44, Brian E Carpenter a =C3=A9crit :
>=20
>>> - Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
>>
>> Because of pre-existing work, and because they are relatively
>> simple and fundamental.
>>
>>> - Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)
>>>    pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code.
>>
>> Exactly.
>=20
> This is not the first time I read this on this list and would appreciat=
e
> some enlightenments.
>=20
> I see two possible use of running code
> 1/ for experimentation, to develop practical (as opposed to theoretical=
)
> understanding of the behaviours
> 2/ for selling it

I'm not along those axes at all. Well, maybe a bit along #1 because
the point is: if somebody has implemented something, even as a prototype,=

it passes the first tests: plausibility & proof of concept.

There is of course a lot more to be discussed after that.

> In the former case I would expect the associated Internet-Draft to be
> progressed as Informational, sharing, for the benefit of the community,=

> the knowledge which was developed through experimentation.

If the draft proceeds to RFC, sure. But many drafts just get used as
input to discussion that later results in consensus drafts.

> In the latter case, I fail to understand the type of community feedback=

> which is expected on a productised code.

Actually there are also quite a few RFCs that document proprietary soluti=
ons,
and those end up as Independent Stream RFCs these days. From what I've se=
en,
they mainly get feedback on clarity and grammar.

    Brian


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From: Rene Struik 
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Subject: [Anima] review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00
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Dear colleagues:

Please find below my initial comments on 
draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00

1. Summary:
The draft discusses a mechanism for networking that presumably can 
operate in parallel to ordinary network operation and is able to operate 
without configuration.

2. General comments:
a) The idea of autonomic control plane relies on group membership 
notions evidenced by a so-called domain certificate. It is unclear what 
the ramifications of this approach are, in terms of provisioning, 
coordination, and pre-planning cost, and in terms of deployment 
flexibility of devices throughout their lifetime. The notion could 
possibly work with quite static networks; however, the comparison with 
other mechanisms for implementing group membership notions require 
consideration. It is hard to see how this notion could work with more 
dynamic topologies or where flexible deployment is required. Certificate 
management aspects (e.g., key validity, revocation) also require lots of 
attention, as well as manufacturing aspects (should certs be generated 
during manufacturing) {since one should know where a device will be 
deployed before issuing the cert}.
b) The autonomic control plane concept seems to require adoption of the 
concepts in another draft 
(draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00) to work.

3. Specific comments:

Section 1:
1) Third para (bottom of p. 1): It would help to elaborate on what 
"independent of configuration, addressing and routing problems" means. 
Does this mean one wishes the "autonomic contorl plane" (ACP) protocol 
to be independent of routing addressing schemes that may be 
topology-dependent and independent of any routing tables? Please elaborate.
2) First para of p. 2: While the cross-referencing to another draft with 
common authors (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00) is 
given seemingly simply "as an example", it seems hard to evaluate this 
draft on its own merits without considering that other cross-referenced 
draft at the same time. This complicates the review and makes the task 
of seeing whether certain designs all have to be used simultaneously or 
not at all, or whether these cover modules that are largely independent 
arduous. I would prefer untangling of lots of the nmrg drafts, which now
often cross-reference each other. To reach an informed opinion, I had to 
read them all, rather than being able to read these as drafts that 
mostly stood on their own. I feel this discourages inviting comments 
from the community at large.
3) The idea of the autonomic control plane seems to be to similar to the 
"dry run" option expressed in draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see 
my general review remark #b on that draft), in the sense that one can 
run the ACP network in an otherwise operational network. This does sound 
more like a logical flow separation issue, where the operational network 
and the "ACP network" version run in "different colors". This could be 
realized if one could have more than one instantiation of a protocol 
running at the same time, with logical separation being provided by 
color coding messaging and configuration data. I can see how this could 
be realized if one deals with direct neighbors in the "ACP color" (since 
then routing is effectively non-existent), but had trouble to understand 
if one wishes to communicate with a more remote "ACP node" (or, more 
precisely, a node that allows ACP-instantiated traffic). At the same 
time, at the local non-routing level, can't one already communicate on 
the local direct neighbor level using existing techniques? (If not, one 
should explain this in the draft.)

Section 2:
4) First bullet: replace "bootstrapping of a device today" by 
"bootstrapping of a device today typically" (after all, not all existing 
networks today require execution of network formation in a carefully 
preplanned order and with lots of coordination [lots of well-designed 
sensor networks can form in virtually any order, almost without human 
intervention]).
5) First bullet: do I have to (sadly) conclude there is absolutely no 
IETF protocol out there where where network formation can happen in a 
more organic manner? {sorry - I do not know all the zillions of RFCs by 
heart.} After all, even if a joining device has to authenticate to the 
network, any public-key based authenticated key agreement scheme can run 
over any channel (secured or not), so having UDP and a network sink 
seems to suffice (can't one use DTLS, here?). This makes me wonder (if 
my sad conclusion actually does hold) what this bottleneck is: 
addressing scheme, authorization issues, pure insanity? The current 
draft, unfortunately, does not elaborate on the current show-stoppers, 
except to suggest that one somehow needs console access. It would be 
extremely beneficial to give this more elaborate insight. {This makes me 
wonder how the internet recovers if one blows part of the network away 
and tries to reform what is left ("survivability", "failure recovery").}
6) Third bullet: add full-stop at the end of the first line.

Section 3:
7) Section 3.2, second para: replace "an globally" by "a globally".
8) Section 3.2, second para: one should add some verbiage re privacy 
implications of the adjacency discovery mechanism. (Note: on a more 
general note, it is hard to find any reference to privacy 
considerations, tracking, traceability, anonymity in any of the 
nmrg-related drafts.)
9) Section 3.2, bulletized list: I wonder how any automatic mechanism 
may derive any notion of "trust" and validity hereof. This should be 
clarified.(Or, does one simply imply that whatever has a certificate 
issued by a specific CA is automatically "trusted"??)
10) Section 3.3: this section seems to assume that devices that have a 
"domain" certificate issued by the same CA are to be mutually trusted. 
While one can indeed use this (very coarse-grained) mechanism for 
evidencing membership of the same group ("domain"), this is not a priori 
provide for autonomic networking, at least not without carefully 
articulating first how these should be issued, what preplanning and 
coordination this requires and what the impact is on flexibility of 
deployment. This should then be compared with alternatives, such as the 
use of group keys in the example of a network with a network manager who 
keeps a repository of device identifiers and provides triage on network 
access via, e.g., a white list.
11) Section 3.3: if one where to use domain identities, these could also 
be realized via attribute certs, rather than device certs. This would 
have the advantage of separating the CA role from the domain-mapping 
role (which could be implemented more locally).
12) Section 3.3: domain certificate validation by itself does not 
establish group membership (since any device can send this publicly 
known string); use of the private key (aka "key possession") is required 
too. I suggest making this more clear in the draft.
13) Section 3.3, p. 5 (last bullet): if checking whether a certificate 
is invalid or expired requires 3rd party assistance (e.g., to implement 
OCSP, CRL, or securely synchronize time) this protocol may no longer be 
autonomic. By group membership depend on CA-issued "domain" 
certificates, one almost automatically forces this scenario, unless one 
ignores key validity lifetime issues and issues certs with "eternal life".
14) Section 3.4: one should define the concept of GRE tunnels. Moreover, 
wouldn't one loose potential interoperability and invite configuration 
issues by suggesting a plethora of options for establishing and 
maintaining a secure channel here (IPSec, "GRE tunnels", etc.)?
15) Section 3.5: if one does not wish to depend on link configured 
addresses, can't one use cryptographically generated addresses instead?
16) Section 3.5: as already said before (see remark #3), it is unclear 
how routing over more than one hop is realized.
17) Section 3.5: one should explain what 802.1q tags are and which 
useful functions these could provide in the context of ACP networking.
18) Section 3.6: The main benefit of having an ACP networking options 
(for "emergency" purposes) seems to be that one does not necessarily 
need to use lots of configuration that, while useful for routing of 
ordinary traffic, does not really matter too much for 
non-throughput/non-time latency optimized communications, such as for 
network diagnostics by qualified personnel. If correct, I would suggest 
some verbiage explaining this philosophy in more detail. (Even if 
incorrect, I would still suggest to add more explanation here.)
19) Section 3.7: It is unclear why one needs another address in ACP 
context: the "domain" is already in the domain certificate; why can't 
one use a cryptographically generated address? Why does one need to have 
the same prefix for all domain devices (since ACP networking is defined 
from scratch and no routing approach is defined, there does not seem to 
be any need to stick to IPv6 address formats with 64-bit prefixes 
(which, again, codifies topology dependent information!).
20) Section 3.8: it is unclear who/what has domain control for 
propagation of routing information.
21) Section 3.8, top of p. 7: it would be good to add some more 
background as to why RPL as a routing protocol would be a suitable 
candidate for autonomic networking, what the dependency is on the 
addressing scheme suggested in Section 3.7 and whether, e.g., different 
instantiations of RPL can run at the same time (this would be of 
interest should one wish to use ACP concept in a constrained network 
setting that already uses RPL for ordinary networking). As an aside: the 
RPL specification [RFC 6550] does not include key management 
functionality, so it would be of interest to see whether what this draft 
proposes can fill in part of this void...

Section 4:
22) First bullet: it would help to have some insight in case of 
anomalies, such as "what happens if tables are full".
23) Third bullet: this raises the question as to scope and lifecycle 
aspects of domain certificates (see also remark #13).

Section 5:
24) second line: replace "been authenticated" by "authenticated" (i.e., 
remove the second occurrence of "been").
25) second para: one should add some verbiage that denial of service 
attacks are still possible, since any device can present whichever 
certificate (a public string) to any other device. See also remark #12 
above.
26) third para: the use of link local addresses prevents scalability of 
ACP beyond a specific topology.
27) third para: the use of domain certificates necessitates re-issuance 
of certificates once a domain changes.
28) third para: Any device can spoof a link-local address, thereby still 
presenting the potential to execute attacks (use tunnel to compromised 
domain node and then inject traffic with seemingly okay looking 
link-local address, etc., etc.)

Section 6:
29) first bullet: As already said, the use of domain certificates to 
evidence group membership has some hidden cost that should be elaborated 
upon in greater detail, in terms of preplanning, coordination, etc. See 
also remark #10 above.
30) first bullet: the suggestion that the use of domain certificates 
allows shipment of devices without any need for pre-provisioning seems, 
unfortunately, incorrect. Au contraire: one needs to decide in which 
domain a new device should be deployed prior to shipping, issue a 
certificate for that domain, install this into the device, all prior to 
shipment. In addition, if one wishes to deploy the shipped device with 
another domain (i.e., one changes one's mind), one has to re-issue a 
cert for the new domain. With device certs that are not domain specific, 
one can simply populate a white list table locally at the network 
manager and use this white list to arbitrage network access.

Section 7:
31) first sentence: the ACP design heavily depends on a CA that can 
issue domain-specific certificates and, essentially, administers the network

-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


From nobody Wed Sep 17 18:38:12 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang 
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Thread-Topic: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03
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From nobody Wed Sep 17 19:39:07 2014
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Hi -

>From: Brian E Carpenter 
>Sent: Sep 17, 2014 1:24 PM
>To: Rene Struik 
>Cc: Randy Presuhn , anima@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
>
>I would expect that synchronisation could be implemented as
>a special case of negotiation. The opposite is fairly clearly
>not true.

Thanks for stating much more clearly what I was trying to say.

Answering Rene's request for specifics...
The examples of negotiation protocols that come to mind, such
as CMIP functional unit negotiation, V.32/V.32bis handshakes,
or NETCONF capability negotiation, don't seem to have much in
common with synchronization.

Randy


From nobody Wed Sep 17 20:21:40 2014
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Message-ID: <541A4FB6.2000108@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 23:21:26 -0400
From: Rene Struik 
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To: Randy Presuhn ,  Brian E Carpenter 
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/kVuNnMVJgd_e86vX24UjXm6ticg
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Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
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Hi Randy:

Thanks for your note. However, I was looking for an example that you 
could state succinctly in technical terms (hence, my "assuming I 
understand the details" remark), rather than having to weed through 
specification documents and trying to extract the main concepts and do a 
comparison.

Of course, I can try and extract the technical problem statement from 
specification docs, RFCs, etc., but was hoping to not have to go through 
this and just analyze the core of the problem.

Now, I am not convinced yet (or cannot convince myself and am given 
another "weed through stacks of paper" exercise), while you most likely 
think you have proven your point.

Best regards, Rene


On 9/17/2014 10:39 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: Brian E Carpenter 
>> Sent: Sep 17, 2014 1:24 PM
>> To: Rene Struik 
>> Cc: Randy Presuhn , anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
>>
>> I would expect that synchronisation could be implemented as
>> a special case of negotiation. The opposite is fairly clearly
>> not true.
> Thanks for stating much more clearly what I was trying to say.
>
> Answering Rene's request for specifics...
> The examples of negotiation protocols that come to mind, such
> as CMIP functional unit negotiation, V.32/V.32bis handshakes,
> or NETCONF capability negotiation, don't seem to have much in
> common with synchronization.
>
> Randy
>


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Open Issues, take 2
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Content-Description: charter-ietf-anima-00-07a.txt
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="charter-ietf-anima-00-07a.txt";
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Message-ID: <541A5483.9000803@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:41:55 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Sheng Jiang 
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2
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Sheng,

Thanks for that. Since I will not be on the call (2 a.m. for me),
I'll give my opinion: this version is OK for me and I think it's
time to submit it to the AD as the version we propose for IETF and
IESG review. I think we have really done the best we can to balance
the various opinions. (As a manager of mine once said, the job is
to achieve the best possible distribution of unhappiness. I will
accept the aspects of this charter that make me unhappy.)

Regards
   Brian

On 18/09/2014 15:32, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> Hi, Michael and all,
> 
> Thanks Michael and Laurent for this open issues list. I am working on next version, charter-ietf-anima-00-07. Several issues has been solved as we made progress through emails. Please see the attached charter-ietf-anima-00-07a. It shorts this list and make it easier for our meeting later today. Summary the solved issues and the shorter list of open issues:
> 
> Solved:
> 
>   >- perception that only 2 use cases are allowed. 
>   Response: 2 is specifically advised by ADs to demonstrate the use of common
>   components while do NOT lose focus. The 2 mentioned are milestones for the
>   initial stage; other documents are ENCOURAGED as individual submissions, and 
>   may be added in later stage. 
>   ALL use case owners, including individual submissions are encouraged to validate
>   the proposed autonomic functionalities and report potential issues.
> 
>   >- Add new use cases to charter?
>    "Additional work items may only be added
>   with approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering."
> 
>   >- Naming the explicit drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
>    because charter is clear that other documents are acceptable. 
>   And we did reach agreement to remove the draft names in early version. 
>   But our AD has been very clear and insist to have them back. Following
>   AD's advices would be the best choice.
> 
>   >- Separate discovery and negotiation functionality in mail goal section
>   
>   
>   >- clarify in mile stones (new text refers to location of draft, in brackets)
>   
> 
>   >- delete section "Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage"
>   
> 
> Shorten list of open issues:
> 
> Critical Issues / Potential Show-Stoppers
> =========================================
> 
> - Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
> - Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)  
>   pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code. 
> 
> - the term "solution" (Dimitri) 
>   (Dimitri, is there a simple way to fix this without re-doing the entire charter?)
> 
> 
> Other Issues / Can resolve in WG later
> ======================================
> 
> - Not enough supporters on the list (Rene)
>   (Not sure what we can do about this now)
> 
> 
> Can resolve now
> ===============
> 
> - Division in camps (Rene)
>   (we're trying to fix this...)
> 
> Thanks everybody for involvement and contributions. Let's work together to reach consensus for sending requests.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Sheng
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Behringer (mbehring)
>> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 1:08 AM
>> To: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2
>>
>> Today Laurent and I (same time zone, luxury!) discussed for almost 2 hours on
>> how to make progress with the charter.
>>
>> Laurent had already started a list of open issues, and we continued to work
>> on that list, below is the output. I wanted to go through all the recent emails
>> to see whether we missed something, but haven't had the time yet. So the
>> below text is likely incomplete.
>>
>> I propose the following:
>>
>> - in the below text, we separated the issues in "critical - must be fixed now",
>> "can be resolved in WG", and "can resolve now".
>> - Let's make sure all issues are on this list. So if you raised an issue and it's not
>> reflected here, please send a mail.
>>   Please refrain from a complete charter re-write at this point, but be
>> specific what should be changed where and how  :-)
>> - When we have all the issues on the list:
>>  + let's resolve the last category right now; those are the easy ones. Should
>> be editorial work.
>>  + let's IGNORE the middle category for now, let's fix those once we have a
>> WG (or once we cleared the "critical" list)
>>  + and let's focus the discussion NOW on the critical ones.
>>
>> So, for the call tomorrow, shall we focus on the first category and try to bring
>> them to closure?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>> Michael
>>
>> ----
>>
>> Open Issues
>>
>> Critical Issues / Potential Show-Stoppers
>> =========================================
>>
>> - perception that only 2 use cases are allowed.
>>  response: The 2 mentioned will be working group drafts; other documents
>>  are ENCOURAGED, but as individual submissions.
>>  ALL use case owners, including individual submissions are encouraged to
>> validate
>>  the proposed autonomic functionalities and report potential issues.
>>  Note: Add to charter?: Other use cases / solutions can be brought in with a
>>        Charter change after the first phase is completed.
>>  Note: not clear in charter right now that the first 2 use cases will be WG
>> drafts.
>>        not clear that they may never progress....
>>
>> - Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
>> - Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)
>>  pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code.
>>
>> - the term "solution" (Dimitri)
>>  (Dimitri, is there a simple way to fix this without re-doing the entire
>> charter?)
>>
>>
>> Other Issues / Can resolve in WG later
>> ======================================
>>
>> - Naming the explicit drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
>>
>> Not critical because charter is clear that other documents are acceptable.
>>
>> - Not enough supporters on the list (Rene)
>>  (Not sure what we can do about this now)
>>
>>
>> Can resolve now
>> ===============
>> - change: (Laurent)
>>   Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic
>> functions
>>  to:
>>   Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>>   Definition of a negotiation functionality for autonomic functions
>>
>>  - clarify in mile stones (new text refers to location of draft, in brackets)
>>
>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts (see "specific goals")
>>           - Mar IETF 92nd -
>> Apr 2015 - adoption of solution draft(s) (see "use cases")
>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for discovery and negotiation protocol
>>           - Jul IETF 93rd -
>> Aug 2015 - submit discovery and negotiation protocol to IESG (standards
>> track)
>> Aug 2015 - adoption of overview draft
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC for trust bootstrap draft
>> Oct 2015 - WGLC for solution draft(s)
>>           - Nov IETF 94th -
>> Dec 2015 - submit trust bootstrap draft to IESG (standards track)
>> Dec 2015 - submit solution draft(s) to IESG (standards track)
>> Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft
>> Jan 2016 - WGLC for overview draft
>>           - Mar IETF 95th -
>> Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards track)
>>
>> - delete section "Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage"
>>  (I think we already agreed on that)
>>
>>
>> - Division in camps (Rene)
>>  (we're trying to fix this...)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: Sheng Jiang 
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--_002_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF4E9EEnkgeml512mbxchi_--


From nobody Wed Sep 17 22:14:29 2014
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:14:24 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: Randy Presuhn 
To: Rene Struik ,  Brian E Carpenter 
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Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
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Hi -

>From: Rene Struik 
>Sent: Sep 17, 2014 8:21 PM
>To: Randy Presuhn , Brian E Carpenter 
>Cc: anima@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
...
>Thanks for your note. However, I was looking for an example that you 
>could state succinctly in technical terms (hence, my "assuming I 
>understand the details" remark), rather than having to weed through 
>specification documents and trying to extract the main concepts and do a 
>comparison.
>
>Of course, I can try and extract the technical problem statement from 
>specification docs, RFCs, etc., but was hoping to not have to go through 
>this and just analyze the core of the problem.

Let's take NETCONF as an example.

At the beginning of a session, each peer advertises to the
other its capabilities.

The intersection (computed independently by the peers) of those
capabilities are presumed to be available for subsequent conversation,
though of course access control or other factors may render use of a
particular capability a moot point, and there's nothing to prevent a
peer from making a request invoking a capability which has not been
negotiated.

There are special rules for protocol version; there the
highest common version "wins."

The whole process is spelled out in the first two paragraphs of
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.1

This doesn't sound anything like synchronization to me, but
perhaps I'm just looking at it incorrectly.

Randy


From nobody Thu Sep 18 02:35:05 2014
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" 
To: Sheng Jiang , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: charter-ietf-anima-00-07b//RE: Open Issues, take 2
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:34:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] charter-ietf-anima-00-07b//RE: Open Issues, take 2
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From nobody Thu Sep 18 06:24:12 2014
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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:23:56 -0400
From: Rene Struik 
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Subject: [Anima] (generalized synchronization description) Re: review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
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Dear Randy:

Please find below my description of generalized synchronization:

Description: A and B exchange status information of mutual interest and 
update their state, as a function of locally maintained status 
information and status info received from the other party

State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A --> B};
State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A <-- B};
Updated state of A: Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B})
Updated state of B: Fb(State{A <-- B}, State{A --> B})
Required properties: Fa( alpha, beta) = Fb (beta, alpha)

Special case: A has no maintained state (i.e., State {A--> B} is the 
empty set)
In that event, A's updated state Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B}) = 
Fa( empty set, State{ A <-- B}), i.e., A's new state is a function of 
state passed from B to A.

Synchronization vs. generalized synchronization:
a) If Fa is the identity function, A's new state is equal to B's passed 
state
b) If Fa is a projection (i.e., it filters state info passed from B to A 
according to what it needs), A's new state is a condensed version of B's 
state (only the relevant parts)
c) If Fa ( alpha, beta) = intersect (alpha, beta), A and B's new state 
is mutually maintained state (which, when replacing "state" with 
"capability", is set of common capabilities)
etc., etc.
NOTE: other functions as possible, of course, as long as these satisfy 
the commutative property above

Your NETCONF scenario below seems to fall under my case c) above.

Obviously, one can extend this in various directions (e.g., state above 
could reflect a vector of attributes, rather than a single attribute 
type, etc.). Conceptually, the scheme would remain the same, though, 
since, e.g., a vector of attributes is another attribute with as type 
the Cartesian product of the component types. {See, here, the beauty of 
abstraction...}

I hope this helps.

This should explain my suggestion #d of my review of 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html):
d) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one 
might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices 
synchronize information of mutual interest. If one device does not have 
current info, this automatically could result in pushing the lacking 
info onto the device.

Even if one still has reservations here, I think it would still be 
beneficial to include in the statement of work the design of a generic 
synchronization scheme (even if one would still keep in negotiation 
schemes as well).

Best regards, Rene





On 9/18/2014 1:14 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: Rene Struik 
>> Sent: Sep 17, 2014 8:21 PM
>> To: Randy Presuhn , Brian E Carpenter 
>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
> ...
>> Thanks for your note. However, I was looking for an example that you
>> could state succinctly in technical terms (hence, my "assuming I
>> understand the details" remark), rather than having to weed through
>> specification documents and trying to extract the main concepts and do a
>> comparison.
>>
>> Of course, I can try and extract the technical problem statement from
>> specification docs, RFCs, etc., but was hoping to not have to go through
>> this and just analyze the core of the problem.
> Let's take NETCONF as an example.
>
> At the beginning of a session, each peer advertises to the
> other its capabilities.
>
> The intersection (computed independently by the peers) of those
> capabilities are presumed to be available for subsequent conversation,
> though of course access control or other factors may render use of a
> particular capability a moot point, and there's nothing to prevent a
> peer from making a request invoking a capability which has not been
> negotiated.
>
> There are special rules for protocol version; there the
> highest common version "wins."
>
> The whole process is spelled out in the first two paragraphs of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.1
>
> This doesn't sound anything like synchronization to me, but
> perhaps I'm just looking at it incorrectly.
>
> Randy


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:59:08 -0400
From: Rene Struik 
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Concerns on Anima pre-WG status and potential directions to address these (Re: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today)
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Dear colleagues:

As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the draft 
charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:
review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03, see 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html
review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html
review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html
review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html
review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html
review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 (still pending)

 From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there are lots of 
questions on the design goals, gaps and design philosophy, and three 
solution drafts floating around for now. I also had trouble finding a 
succinct analysis of what is required and what is missing in prior RFC art.

I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and improving 
the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the draft charter, 
since those underpinnings are very hard to understand (also for me after 
spending considerable time on this). I think the solution drafts leave 
so many questions and lack so much analysis, that it is highly premature 
to consider these as suitable basis for working group deliberations.

I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some of the 
proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as co-author) in all 
the drafts I critically examined. So, one can choose to move ahead on 
procedural grounds, no matter technical reservations regarding the 
foundations of this effort. We are all technical people, though, and I 
hope you would all agree that we ned to go back to the drawing board and 
improve the currently shaky foundations first.

Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to include solution 
drafts in a charter (no matter whether an AD might have suggested so), 
esp. if one has an extremely hard time to trace any technical discussion 
on mailing lists. My technical reviews were aimed at filling this void.

Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this topic area 
is important enough to do right and not start on the wrong footing.

Best regards, Rene

On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:
> Dear colleagues:
>
> I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me circulating 
> comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the charter, but the AD 
> artillery at this stage kind of forces me to weigh-in.
>
> First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock version 
> 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did I participate 
> in the last conference call (in the middle of my sleep cycle).
>
> Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:
> - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the BOF 
> had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the call/mailing list 
> seem to draw in only a handful of people. This does not bode well for 
> support for the effort. {It could be that people are intimidated by 
> presumably having to read the drafts mentioned in the charter first (I 
> was intimidated by this myself, but now did all this, and also read 
> the 40 page survey on autonomic networking).} This makes me wonder why 
> not more people are interested. [It has some advantages as well, since 
> sometimes a small group works better.]
> - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the draft 
> charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as deliverable 
> direction. In my mind, it would be better to describe the problem 
> areas the soon to be WG is supposed to work on (hence, my question to 
> you on ACP one para description).
> - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps" that I 
> would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to try and 
> bridge this before sending stuff the direction of an AD (esp. when so 
> few people are involved)?
>
> I would think trying to understand what drives the different "camps" 
> has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?
>
> Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them 
> happened in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was on 
> vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the version number does not 
> indicate concensus or stability.
>
> Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area:
> - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled first in 
> one para, no other context required, language. Idea here is to make 
> the charter readable for non-expert readers
> - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in various 
> draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the definition draft 
> and some fundamental ones on each of the three solution drafts).
>
> The two items above I had originally plan to complete last weekend; I 
> hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week.
>
> Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a bigger 
> chance to be addressed by a) having a clear description of what the 
> group wants to accomplish; (b) having some actual technical discussion 
> on the solution drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts, which - so far 
> - have been hard to trace.
>
> Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in 
> circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee ... and 
> volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important and useful, 
> if done right).
>
> Best regards, Rene
>
> On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Dimitri,
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this 
>>> and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this"
>>>
>> I believe it's covered by the charter.
>> The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
>> more modest
>>
>>> can you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I am 
>>> interested in the following part
>>>
>>> /[specific goals]/
>>>
>>> /o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic 
>>> functions/
>>>
>>> I have tried to explain during the call that underneath 
>>> "negotiation" sits theproblem by which a collection of 
>>> interacting/agents/ aim at reaching agreement in order to realize an 
>>> "intent" is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address management 
>>> being outside my scope/interest, how practically the charter does 
>>> allow me to work in this item when it states:
>>>
>>> /The working group will initially consider a simple example as a 
>>> test case for further work. /
>>>
>> That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See 
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> /o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network/
>>>
>> I agree that this bullet is not described enough.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter 
>>> aims defining such component but for instance behind the term 
>>> negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3 
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is 
>>> about base information exchange (more precisely a base description 
>>> of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation object. 
>>> Thus missing i) the actual "*_negotiation protocols_* are the set of 
>>> rules that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible 
>>> types of participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third 
>>> parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation 
>>> closed), the events that cause state transitions (e.g., no more 
>>> bidders, bid accepted), and the valid actions of the participants in 
>>> particular states (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and at 
>>> when)." and ii) the *_agents' reasoning models_* which provide "the 
>>> decision making apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve 
>>> their objectives. The sophistication of the model is determined by 
>>> the protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the 
>>> range of operations that can be performed on it"
>>>
>>> Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be 
>>> viewed as a "distributed search through a space of potential 
>>> agreements about some joint problem [...] To improve the efficiency 
>>> of the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be able to 
>>> provide more useful feedback on the proposals it receives than just 
>>> whether or not it agrees to them. This feedback can take the form of 
>>> a critique (comments on which parts of the proposal the agent likes 
>>> or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative proposal 
>>> generated in response to a proposal). From such feedback, the 
>>> proposer should be able to generate a proposal which is more likely 
>>> to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do so).
>>>
>>> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On 
>>> argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the International 
>>> Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.
>>>
>>> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings 
>>>  
>>> et al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; 
>>> Group Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 
>>> 199-215
>>>
>>> Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in 
>>> Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, 
>>> Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. 
>>> Negotiation in multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3 
>>> (September 1999), pp.285-289.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -dimitri.
>>>
>>> *From:*Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael 
>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
>>> *To:* CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>
>>> Laurent,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the 
>>> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on 
>>> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think 
>>> we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and 
>>> Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do 
>>> you agree?
>>>
>>> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and 
>>> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>>>
>>> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do 
>>> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is 
>>> this". (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points 
>>> you raise MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them when we 
>>> discuss the solutions.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
>>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org 
>>> 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>
>>> Dear Michael,
>>>
>>> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>>>
>>> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
>>> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited 
>>> to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve 
>>> conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be 
>>> considered. this is what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation 
>>> functionality boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).
>>>
>>> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop 
>>> features are in: configuration, protection, healing and 
>>> optimization. these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>>>
>>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>>
>>> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>
>>>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>>>
>>>     https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93  
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     Michael
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     --
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>>>
>>>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     Attendees
>>>
>>>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     Notes
>>>
>>>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>>>
>>>     1) Methodology of this working group
>>>
>>>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     2) Selection of use cases
>>>
>>>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     3) Common infrastructure components
>>>
>>>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
>>>
>>>     Yes. (no objection)
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>>>
>>>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
>>>
>>>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>>>
>>>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
>>>
>>>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>>>
>>>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>>>
>>>     Brian: Completely agree.
>>>
>>>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>>>
>>>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
>>>
>>>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>>>
>>>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
>>>
>>>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>>>
>>>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
>>>
>>>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
>>>
>>>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>>>
>>>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>>>
>>>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
>>>
>>>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>>>
>>>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>
>>>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>     Anima mailing list
>>>
>>>     Anima@ietf.org  
>>>
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>       
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>>
>>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>>
>>> Advanced Internet Research
>>>
>>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>>
>>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>>
>>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
>>> 
>>>
>>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>>>
>>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
> -- 
> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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Dear colleagues:

      

      As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the draft
      charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:

      review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03, see
      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html

      review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see
      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html

      review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see
      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html

      review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see
      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html

      review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see
      http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html

      review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00
      (still pending)

      

      From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there are
      lots of questions on the design goals, gaps and design philosophy,
      and three solution drafts floating around for now. I also had
      trouble finding a succinct analysis of what is required and what
      is missing in prior RFC art.

      

      I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and
      improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the
      draft charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to
      understand (also for me after spending considerable time on this).
      I think the solution drafts leave so many questions and lack so
      much analysis, that it is highly premature to consider these as
      suitable basis for working group deliberations.

      

      I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some of the
      proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as co-author)
      in all the drafts I critically examined. So, one can choose to
      move ahead on procedural grounds, no matter technical reservations
      regarding the foundations of this effort. We are all technical
      people, though, and I hope you would all agree that we ned to go
      back to the drawing board and improve the currently shaky
      foundations first.

      

      Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to include
      solution drafts in a charter (no matter whether an AD might have
      suggested so), esp. if one has an extremely hard time to trace any
      technical discussion on mailing lists. My technical reviews were
      aimed at filling this void.

      

      Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this topic
      area is important enough to do right and not start on the wrong
      footing.

      

      Best regards, Rene

      

      On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:

    

    

      
      
Dear colleagues:

        

        I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me
        circulating comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the
        charter, but the AD artillery at this stage kind of forces me to
        weigh-in.

        

        First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock
        version 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did
        I participate in the last conference call (in the middle of my
        sleep cycle). 

        

        Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:

        - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the
        BOF had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the
        call/mailing list seem to draw in only a handful of people. This
        does not bode well for support for the effort. {It could be that
        people are intimidated by presumably having to read the drafts
        mentioned in the charter first (I was intimidated by this
        myself, but now did all this, and also read the 40 page survey
        on autonomic networking).} This makes me wonder why not more
        people are interested. [It has some advantages as well, since
        sometimes a small group works better.] 

        - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the
        draft charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as
        deliverable direction. In my mind, it would be better to
        describe the problem areas the soon to be WG is supposed to work
        on (hence, my question to you on ACP one para description). 

        - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps"
        that I would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to
        try and bridge this before sending stuff the direction of an AD
        (esp. when so few people are involved)? 

        

        I would think trying to understand what drives the different
        "camps" has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?

        

        Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them
        happened in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was
        on vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the version number does
        not indicate concensus or stability.

        

        Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area: 

        - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled
        first in one para, no other context required, language. Idea
        here is to make the charter readable for non-expert readers 

        - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in
        various draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the
        definition draft and some fundamental ones on each of the three
        solution drafts). 

        

        The two items above I had originally plan to complete last
        weekend; I hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week. 

        

        Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a
        bigger chance to be addressed by a) having a clear description
        of what the group wants to accomplish; (b) having some actual
        technical discussion on the solution drafts, definition/gap
        analysis drafts, which - so far - have been hard to trace.

        

        Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in
        circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee
        ... and volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important
        and useful, if done right).

        

        Best regards, Rene 

        

        On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:

      

      

        
        
Dimitri,

        

        

          
          
          
          

            
Michael,
                  

            
If the charter has been
                sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and nothing
                else”, whereas the intent is “our initial focus is
                this”  

              

          

        

        I believe it's covered by the charter.

        
The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
more modest

        

        

          

            
can you explain me how to deal with the
                following situation. I am
                interested in the following part

            
[specific

                  goals]

            
o
                  Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for
                  autonomic functions

            
I have
                tried to explain during the call that underneath
                “negotiation” sits the problem by which a collection
                  of interacting agents aim


                  at reaching agreement in order to realize an “intent”
                  is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address


                management being outside my scope/interest, how
                practically the charter does allow me to work in this
                item when it states:

            
The
                  working group will initially consider a simple example
                  as a test case for further work. 

          

        

        That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt

        

          

            

            
o
                  Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management
                  within a network

          

        

        I agree that this bullet is not described enough.

        

        Regards, Benoit

        

          

            

            
There is
                however a broader technical point of concern, the
                charter aims defining such component but for instance
                behind the term negotiation we understand different
                things Section 2.3 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is
                about base information exchange (more precisely a base
                description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the
                negotiation object. Thus missing i) the actual “negotiation


                    protocols are the set of rules that govern
                the interaction. This covers, the permissible types of
                participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third
                parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids,
                negotiation closed), the events that cause state
                transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and
                the valid actions of the participants in particular
                states (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and at
                when).” and ii) the agents’ reasoning models
                which provide “the decision making apparatus by which
                participants attempt to achieve their objectives. The
                sophistication of the model is determined by the
                protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and
                the range of operations that can be performed on it”

            
Negotiation

                in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed be
                viewed as a “distributed search through a space of
                potential agreements about some joint problem […] To
                improve the efficiency of the negotiation process, the
                recipient needs to be able to provide more useful
                feedback on the proposals it receives than just whether
                or not it agrees to them. This feedback can take the
                form of a critique (comments on which parts of the
                proposal the agent likes or dislikes) or a
                counter-proposal (an alternative proposal generated in
                response to a proposal). From such feedback, the
                proposer should be able to generate a proposal which is
                more likely to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do
                so).

            
 

            
[Jen1998]
                N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On
                argumentation-based negotiation, Proceedings of the
                  International Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems,
                pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

            
 

            
[Jen2001]
              N.R.Jennings
                et al., Automated
                  Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group


                Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume

                  10, Issue 2, pp 199-215

            
Please
                also take a look at the following paper on
                  Negotiation in Multi-Agent Systems from Martin


                Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris
                Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation in
                multi-agent systems. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September
                1999), pp.285-289. 

            
 

            
Thanks,

            
-dimitri.

            
 

            

              

                

                  

                    From:
                      Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org]
                      On Behalf Of Michael Behringer (mbehring)

                      Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM

                      To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org

                      Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
                      Call Today

                

              

              
 

              
Laurent, 

              
Thanks for the corrections. It’s
                  difficult to participate in the discussion AND try to
                  catch everything correctly, so I count on everybody to
                  provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don’t think
                  we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your
                  (and Dimitri’s) comments are in the same mail thread
                  in the archive. Do you agree? 

              
Personally, I think a lot of these
                  discussions will be easier and clearer when we’re
                  actually arguing about a protocol or method. 

              
I think the charter has been sometimes
                  misunderstood as “we will do this and nothing else”,
                  whereas the intent is “our initial focus is this”.
                  (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the
                  points you raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll
                  raise them when we discuss the solutions. 

              
Michael

              
 

              

                

                  

                    

                      From:
                        Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
                        

                        Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53

                        To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org

                        Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
                        Call Today

                  

                

                
 

                
Dear
                    Michael,

                    

                    Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and
                    driving this call ;)

                    

                    Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two
                    comments of the call)

                    1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a
                    higher level. 

                        --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast
                    communication is not suited to coordinate multiple
                    autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts, avoid
                    oscillations, etc.). other means should be
                    considered. this is what we need to define (i.e. the
                    negotiation functionality boundaries) before
                    specifying the protocol(s).

                     

                    2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                        --> as written in charter -10, the
                    conventional self-chop features are in:
                    configuration, protection, healing and optimization.
                    these should be the minimal basis for the group
                    scope.

                    

                    Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

                

                  
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael
                      Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

                

                

                  
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 

                  
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

                  
 

                  
Michael

                  
 

                  
--

                  
 

                  
 

                  
 

                  
Notes from the ANIMA Call

                  
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

                  
 

                  
Attendees

                  
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

                  
 

                  
Notes

                  
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

                  
 

                  
List of items where we have not consensus:

                  
1) Methodology of this working group

                  
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

                  
 

                  
2) Selection of use cases

                  
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

                  
 

                  
3) Common infrastructure components

                  
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

                  
 

                  
Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 

                  
Yes. (no objection) 

                  
 

                  
Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 

                  
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

                  
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

                  
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

                  
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 

                  
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 

                  
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 

                  
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 

                  
Brian: Completely agree. 

                  
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 

                  
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 

                  
Sheng: This will take too long. 

                  
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 

                  
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 

                  
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 

                  
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 

                  
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 

                  
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

                  
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 

                  
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

                  
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 

                  
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 

                  
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 

                  
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                  
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

                  
 

                  
 

                  
 

                  
_______________________________________________

                  
Anima mailing list

                  
Anima@ietf.org

                  
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

                  
 

                

                
 

                

                  

                    -- 

                  

                    Bien cordialement, Best regards,

                  

                     

                  

                    Laurent Ciavaglia

                  

                    Advanced Internet Research

                  

                    Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

                  

                     

                  

                    phone: +33 160 402 636 

                  

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--------------040606010808080103070108--


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Notes from the ANIMA call today
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Recording is here:=20
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3De83b7fcf90684a8eb4fca6cda=
4da6445


Notes from the ANIMA Call
18 Sep 2014

Attendees:=20
Sheng Jiang, Bing Liu, Dan Romascanu, Guy Meador, Laurent Ciavaglia, Rene S=
truik, Toerless Eckert,=20
Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

Notes:=20

Sheng reads "note well"
Deadline for scheduling requests approaching.=20

Two main questions:=20
- do we want to ask the AD to propose the charter?=20
- ask for time slot at next IETF?

Charter Discussion.=20

We have a new charter -07b, proposed by Sheng.=20
Clarification on the open issues, mentioned other use cases are acceptable.=
=20
Going through the list in his latest email.=20

Michael shows diff between charter 06 and 07b

Rene: Might be useful to have a generic sync protocol (see email).=20
Sheng: The negotiation function is meant for that.=20
Rene: Statements like "it's clear that..." are not helping. We need reviews=
.=20
If we WG figures out that the negotiation protocol solves all the problem, =
that's good.=20
Michael: Is this discussion part of the charter?=20
Rene: Not clear what is in/out of scope. This is causing the pushback.
Sheng: We agree that we need synchronisation. But misunderstanding. All tha=
t's relevant to
common components is in scope. Maybe not a milestone.=20
Rene: Disagrement on existing documents, seems like other docs are out of s=
cope.=20
Michael: Other documents are allowed, and can be adopted, as long as they f=
it the goals.=20
Rene: Output of the group should be ... Synchronisation should be included.=
=20
Sheng: Should we include synchronisation as a goal in the charter?=20
Rene: Yes, we can add synchronisation, would help for this particular quest=
ion but there are more...
Laurent: Limited scope is fine; but if other people don't find something to=
 work in the first=20
  phase, what should they do? Just wait for their turn?=20
Sheng: DHC workign group has the same sentence (additional work items can o=
nly be added ...)=20
Michael: reason for limiting goals is that AN is too big an area to tackle =
all issues at the same time.=20
Rene: Agree that there has to be some limits. Effort is useful. But group i=
s trying to push a charter
  without proper foundation. Ex: Gap analysis has vague statements, almost =
independent of AN.=20
  If we want to improve on the described functionalities, need a proper ass=
essment first.=20
  Where is the analysis on current problems?=20
  Still has a hard time to assess what went wrong and what can be done bett=
er.=20
Michael: But is this not a part of the WG's job?=20
Michael: We believe we have some good problem statements and draft solution=
s, such as draft-pritikin.=20
Rene: There isn't much justification in the docs. Maybe that's part of the =
effort.=20
Sheng: Most of those comments are specific to documents. Not a charter ques=
tion.=20
Rene: Docs are mentioned as background to the charter, thus think they must=
 be discussed as part of the
  charter discussion.=20
Sheng: ACP not mentioned in gap analysis. There is a gap between that doc a=
nd the charter.=20
Rene: one of the goals of the charter should be to define what needs more w=
ork.=20
Laurent: Maybe normal process is too long, but in the process of a WG, adde=
d value should be clear.=20
Michael: Clearly no complete consensus, but can we get the benefit of the d=
oubt? Get started with the WG, and
  have technical discussion, agree on the actual work items as a process.=20
Sheng: Agree, we should close on the charter and do the actual work.=20
Rene: Problem is that this is more of a systems approach, should be taken t=
o IAB. What is wrong with another=20
  BoF?=20
Dan: If 2nd BoF fails it's over for a while.=20
Laurent: Still some disagreements on approach and technical stuff, but can =
live with that.=20
  Worry: once we have a WG, we may end up with difficulties to create usefu=
l output.=20
  Not blocking the situation, however.=20
Dan: Same feeling. Better definitions needed. Like, ACP is unclear until yo=
u read the draft, but=20
  this can be done later. "good enough" for now.=20
Rene: Quite critical; wasted a lot of time on procedures, rather than work.=
=20
  We started on the wrong foot, but don't want to be blamed for blocking it=
.=20
  If the majority decides we should go ahead, he won't block it.=20
Toerless: Rene, do you think the work that YOU want to contribue is covered=
?=20
Rene: Don't know. Looking long term. His interests fit to some degree.=20
Guy: Work is very interesting and useful. Charter can be tweaked "till the =
cows come home".
  lets get started. The specific goals in the charter are necessary to adva=
nce the work.
Yu: We spent a month on this discussion. Let's do some actual work. Agree t=
o move ahead.
Bing: AN is a big concept. Also agrees to move ahead.=20
Michael: So, let's send the latest version to the AD and request BoF or WG,=
 whatever AD prefers.=20
Sheng: Will request a slot for the next IETF slot.
Rene: Signal to AD that this is a overarching protocol work, and may need I=
AB work.=20
Toerless: Should still fit into ops area.=20
Sheng will request time slot at next IETF, and will ping AD with latest ver=
sion of charter.=20


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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 08:02:06 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Cc: Randy Presuhn , anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] (generalized synchronization description) Re: review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
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Rene,

I can see the role of state synchronisation; for example as part
of a discovery process, it's desirable that peers have congruent
view of the topoloogy after the process ends. But this is not
the same thing as peers agreeing how to share resources as a
compromise between their differing requirements.

Synchronisation could be used to establish agreed status between two
devices, such as "A needs 200 IPv4 addresses and currently has 150, and
B needs 200 addresses and currently has 230." But synchronisation
alone cannot transform this into "A needs 200 addresses and
currently has 190, and B needs 200 addresses and currently has 190."
That's where we need negotiation.

   Brian

Regards
   Brian Carpenter
   http://orcid.org/0000-0001-7924-6182




On 19/09/2014 01:23, Rene Struik wrote:
> Dear Randy:
> 
> Please find below my description of generalized synchronization:
> 
> Description: A and B exchange status information of mutual interest and
> update their state, as a function of locally maintained status
> information and status info received from the other party
> 
> State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A --> B};
> State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A <-- B};
> Updated state of A: Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B})
> Updated state of B: Fb(State{A <-- B}, State{A --> B})
> Required properties: Fa( alpha, beta) = Fb (beta, alpha)
> 
> Special case: A has no maintained state (i.e., State {A--> B} is the
> empty set)
> In that event, A's updated state Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B}) =
> Fa( empty set, State{ A <-- B}), i.e., A's new state is a function of
> state passed from B to A.
> 
> Synchronization vs. generalized synchronization:
> a) If Fa is the identity function, A's new state is equal to B's passed
> state
> b) If Fa is a projection (i.e., it filters state info passed from B to A
> according to what it needs), A's new state is a condensed version of B's
> state (only the relevant parts)
> c) If Fa ( alpha, beta) = intersect (alpha, beta), A and B's new state
> is mutually maintained state (which, when replacing "state" with
> "capability", is set of common capabilities)
> etc., etc.
> NOTE: other functions as possible, of course, as long as these satisfy
> the commutative property above
> 
> Your NETCONF scenario below seems to fall under my case c) above.
> 
> Obviously, one can extend this in various directions (e.g., state above
> could reflect a vector of attributes, rather than a single attribute
> type, etc.). Conceptually, the scheme would remain the same, though,
> since, e.g., a vector of attributes is another attribute with as type
> the Cartesian product of the component types. {See, here, the beauty of
> abstraction...}
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> This should explain my suggestion #d of my review of
> draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html):
> d) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one
> might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices
> synchronize information of mutual interest. If one device does not have
> current info, this automatically could result in pushing the lacking
> info onto the device.
> 
> Even if one still has reservations here, I think it would still be
> beneficial to include in the statement of work the design of a generic
> synchronization scheme (even if one would still keep in negotiation
> schemes as well).
> 
> Best regards, Rene
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/18/2014 1:14 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
>> Hi -
>>
>>> From: Rene Struik 
>>> Sent: Sep 17, 2014 8:21 PM
>>> To: Randy Presuhn , Brian E Carpenter
>>> 
>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] review of
>>> draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
>> ...
>>> Thanks for your note. However, I was looking for an example that you
>>> could state succinctly in technical terms (hence, my "assuming I
>>> understand the details" remark), rather than having to weed through
>>> specification documents and trying to extract the main concepts and do a
>>> comparison.
>>>
>>> Of course, I can try and extract the technical problem statement from
>>> specification docs, RFCs, etc., but was hoping to not have to go through
>>> this and just analyze the core of the problem.
>> Let's take NETCONF as an example.
>>
>> At the beginning of a session, each peer advertises to the
>> other its capabilities.
>>
>> The intersection (computed independently by the peers) of those
>> capabilities are presumed to be available for subsequent conversation,
>> though of course access control or other factors may render use of a
>> particular capability a moot point, and there's nothing to prevent a
>> peer from making a request invoking a capability which has not been
>> negotiated.
>>
>> There are special rules for protocol version; there the
>> highest common version "wins."
>>
>> The whole process is spelled out in the first two paragraphs of
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.1
>>
>> This doesn't sound anything like synchronization to me, but
>> perhaps I'm just looking at it incorrectly.
>>
>> Randy
> 
> 


From nobody Thu Sep 18 19:53:05 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] (generalized synchronization description) Re: review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
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Hi Rene -

Thanks for your helpful clarification of what you meant by
"synchronization protocol".  I had understood the term more
in the sense of the things exemplified by the results
of a Google search for "synchronization protocols -beef -cow".
(Leave off the "-beef -cow" for a fascinating trip into
veterinary science.)

I wonder whether others understand the term as you do, or,
like me, jump to the conclusion that the discussion is of
NTP-like things or concerns of SMPTE or MIDI time codes.

Randy

-----Original Message-----
>From: Rene Struik 
>Sent: Sep 18, 2014 6:23 AM
>To: Randy Presuhn , Brian E Carpenter 
>Cc: anima@ietf.org
>Subject: [Anima] (generalized synchronization description) Re: review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
>
>Dear Randy:
>
>Please find below my description of generalized synchronization:
>
>Description: A and B exchange status information of mutual interest and 
>update their state, as a function of locally maintained status 
>information and status info received from the other party
>
>State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A --> B};
>State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A <-- B};
>Updated state of A: Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B})
>Updated state of B: Fb(State{A <-- B}, State{A --> B})
>Required properties: Fa( alpha, beta) = Fb (beta, alpha)
>
>Special case: A has no maintained state (i.e., State {A--> B} is the 
>empty set)
>In that event, A's updated state Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B}) = 
>Fa( empty set, State{ A <-- B}), i.e., A's new state is a function of 
>state passed from B to A.
>
>Synchronization vs. generalized synchronization:
>a) If Fa is the identity function, A's new state is equal to B's passed 
>state
>b) If Fa is a projection (i.e., it filters state info passed from B to A 
>according to what it needs), A's new state is a condensed version of B's 
>state (only the relevant parts)
>c) If Fa ( alpha, beta) = intersect (alpha, beta), A and B's new state 
>is mutually maintained state (which, when replacing "state" with 
>"capability", is set of common capabilities)
>etc., etc.
>NOTE: other functions as possible, of course, as long as these satisfy 
>the commutative property above
>
>Your NETCONF scenario below seems to fall under my case c) above.
>
>Obviously, one can extend this in various directions (e.g., state above 
>could reflect a vector of attributes, rather than a single attribute 
>type, etc.). Conceptually, the scheme would remain the same, though, 
>since, e.g., a vector of attributes is another attribute with as type 
>the Cartesian product of the component types. {See, here, the beauty of 
>abstraction...}
>
>I hope this helps.
>
>This should explain my suggestion #d of my review of 
>draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see 
>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html):
>d) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one 
>might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices 
>synchronize information of mutual interest. If one device does not have 
>current info, this automatically could result in pushing the lacking 
>info onto the device.
>
>Even if one still has reservations here, I think it would still be 
>beneficial to include in the statement of work the design of a generic 
>synchronization scheme (even if one would still keep in negotiation 
>schemes as well).
>
>Best regards, Rene
>
>
>
>
>
>On 9/18/2014 1:14 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
>> Hi -
>>
>>> From: Rene Struik 
>>> Sent: Sep 17, 2014 8:21 PM
>>> To: Randy Presuhn , Brian E Carpenter 
>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
>> ...
>>> Thanks for your note. However, I was looking for an example that you
>>> could state succinctly in technical terms (hence, my "assuming I
>>> understand the details" remark), rather than having to weed through
>>> specification documents and trying to extract the main concepts and do a
>>> comparison.
>>>
>>> Of course, I can try and extract the technical problem statement from
>>> specification docs, RFCs, etc., but was hoping to not have to go through
>>> this and just analyze the core of the problem.
>> Let's take NETCONF as an example.
>>
>> At the beginning of a session, each peer advertises to the
>> other its capabilities.
>>
>> The intersection (computed independently by the peers) of those
>> capabilities are presumed to be available for subsequent conversation,
>> though of course access control or other factors may render use of a
>> particular capability a moot point, and there's nothing to prevent a
>> peer from making a request invoking a capability which has not been
>> negotiated.
>>
>> There are special rules for protocol version; there the
>> highest common version "wins."
>>
>> The whole process is spelled out in the first two paragraphs of
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.1
>>
>> This doesn't sound anything like synchronization to me, but
>> perhaps I'm just looking at it incorrectly.
>>
>> Randy
>
>
>-- 
>email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>
>_______________________________________________
>Anima mailing list
>Anima@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Sep 19 00:46:41 2014
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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 09:46:30 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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Dear Randy, Rene,

Interesting thread!

When Rene first mentioned an approach based on synchronization within 
this scope, I thought along the same lines as his (i.e. not 
synchronization "à la NTP").

We have worked with a french start-up years ago (Ginkgo Networks, 
unfortunately not active anymore) on a similar concept: their system 
used a knowledge base synchronization method as the control logic among 
entities. Their Multi Agent System (MAS) approach, coming from the field 
of articifial intelligence, was information-driven and slot-based (not 
event based), their argument being it avoids well-known issues on 
event-driven systems (deadlocks, livelocks...).
Some litterature can still be found, but, to my knowledge, the product 
is not publicly available/maintained anymore.

I think such synchronization approach is worth considering in the 
discussion of the group. Currently I would think it is an alternative 
model compared to other methods to realize negotiation (not sure it is a 
correct assumption... feel free to comment). Maybe some structure 
("taxonomy") would help to situate the alternatives on a map.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.



On 19/09/2014 04:53, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi Rene -
>
> Thanks for your helpful clarification of what you meant by
> "synchronization protocol".  I had understood the term more
> in the sense of the things exemplified by the results
> of a Google search for "synchronization protocols -beef -cow".
> (Leave off the "-beef -cow" for a fascinating trip into
> veterinary science.)
>
> I wonder whether others understand the term as you do, or,
> like me, jump to the conclusion that the discussion is of
> NTP-like things or concerns of SMPTE or MIDI time codes.
>
> Randy
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rene Struik 
>> Sent: Sep 18, 2014 6:23 AM
>> To: Randy Presuhn , Brian E Carpenter 
>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Anima] (generalized synchronization description) Re: review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
>>
>> Dear Randy:
>>
>> Please find below my description of generalized synchronization:
>>
>> Description: A and B exchange status information of mutual interest and
>> update their state, as a function of locally maintained status
>> information and status info received from the other party
>>
>> State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A --> B};
>> State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A <-- B};
>> Updated state of A: Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B})
>> Updated state of B: Fb(State{A <-- B}, State{A --> B})
>> Required properties: Fa( alpha, beta) = Fb (beta, alpha)
>>
>> Special case: A has no maintained state (i.e., State {A--> B} is the
>> empty set)
>> In that event, A's updated state Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B}) =
>> Fa( empty set, State{ A <-- B}), i.e., A's new state is a function of
>> state passed from B to A.
>>
>> Synchronization vs. generalized synchronization:
>> a) If Fa is the identity function, A's new state is equal to B's passed
>> state
>> b) If Fa is a projection (i.e., it filters state info passed from B to A
>> according to what it needs), A's new state is a condensed version of B's
>> state (only the relevant parts)
>> c) If Fa ( alpha, beta) = intersect (alpha, beta), A and B's new state
>> is mutually maintained state (which, when replacing "state" with
>> "capability", is set of common capabilities)
>> etc., etc.
>> NOTE: other functions as possible, of course, as long as these satisfy
>> the commutative property above
>>
>> Your NETCONF scenario below seems to fall under my case c) above.
>>
>> Obviously, one can extend this in various directions (e.g., state above
>> could reflect a vector of attributes, rather than a single attribute
>> type, etc.). Conceptually, the scheme would remain the same, though,
>> since, e.g., a vector of attributes is another attribute with as type
>> the Cartesian product of the component types. {See, here, the beauty of
>> abstraction...}
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> This should explain my suggestion #d of my review of
>> draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html):
>> d) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one
>> might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices
>> synchronize information of mutual interest. If one device does not have
>> current info, this automatically could result in pushing the lacking
>> info onto the device.
>>
>> Even if one still has reservations here, I think it would still be
>> beneficial to include in the statement of work the design of a generic
>> synchronization scheme (even if one would still keep in negotiation
>> schemes as well).
>>
>> Best regards, Rene
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/18/2014 1:14 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
>>> Hi -
>>>
>>>> From: Rene Struik 
>>>> Sent: Sep 17, 2014 8:21 PM
>>>> To: Randy Presuhn , Brian E Carpenter 
>>>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02
>>> ...
>>>> Thanks for your note. However, I was looking for an example that you
>>>> could state succinctly in technical terms (hence, my "assuming I
>>>> understand the details" remark), rather than having to weed through
>>>> specification documents and trying to extract the main concepts and do a
>>>> comparison.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I can try and extract the technical problem statement from
>>>> specification docs, RFCs, etc., but was hoping to not have to go through
>>>> this and just analyze the core of the problem.
>>> Let's take NETCONF as an example.
>>>
>>> At the beginning of a session, each peer advertises to the
>>> other its capabilities.
>>>
>>> The intersection (computed independently by the peers) of those
>>> capabilities are presumed to be available for subsequent conversation,
>>> though of course access control or other factors may render use of a
>>> particular capability a moot point, and there's nothing to prevent a
>>> peer from making a request invoking a capability which has not been
>>> negotiated.
>>>
>>> There are special rules for protocol version; there the
>>> highest common version "wins."
>>>
>>> The whole process is spelled out in the first two paragraphs of
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.1
>>>
>>> This doesn't sound anything like synchronization to me, but
>>> perhaps I'm just looking at it incorrectly.
>>>
>>> Randy
>>
>> -- 
>> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


--------------070903040107050602040706
Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    Dear Randy, Rene,

      

      Interesting thread!

      

      When Rene first mentioned an approach based on synchronization
      within this scope, I thought along the same lines as his (i.e. not
      synchronization "à la NTP").

      

      We have worked with a french start-up years ago (Ginkgo Networks,
      unfortunately not active anymore) on a similar concept: their
      system used a knowledge base synchronization method as the control
      logic among entities. Their Multi Agent System (MAS) approach,
      coming from the field of articifial intelligence, was information-driven
      and slot-based (not event based), their argument being it avoids
      well-known issues on event-driven systems (deadlocks,
      livelocks...).

      Some litterature can still be found, but, to my knowledge, the product is not publicly available/maintained anymore.

      

      I think such synchronization approach is worth considering in the
      discussion of the group. Currently I would think it is an
      alternative model compared to other methods to realize negotiation
      (not sure it is a correct assumption... feel free to comment).
      Maybe some structure ("taxonomy") would help to situate the
      alternatives on a map.

      

      Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

      

      

      

    
    
On 19/09/2014 04:53, Randy Presuhn
      wrote:

    

    

      
Hi Rene -

Thanks for your helpful clarification of what you meant by
"synchronization protocol".  I had understood the term more
in the sense of the things exemplified by the results
of a Google search for "synchronization protocols -beef -cow".
(Leave off the "-beef -cow" for a fascinating trip into
veterinary science.)

I wonder whether others understand the term as you do, or,
like me, jump to the conclusion that the discussion is of
NTP-like things or concerns of SMPTE or MIDI time codes.

Randy

-----Original Message-----


      

        
From: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
Sent: Sep 18, 2014 6:23 AM
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: [Anima] (generalized synchronization description) Re: review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02

Dear Randy:

Please find below my description of generalized synchronization:

Description: A and B exchange status information of mutual interest and 
update their state, as a function of locally maintained status 
information and status info received from the other party

State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A --> B};
State information maintained by A of interest to B: State{A <-- B};
Updated state of A: Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B})
Updated state of B: Fb(State{A <-- B}, State{A --> B})
Required properties: Fa( alpha, beta) = Fb (beta, alpha)

Special case: A has no maintained state (i.e., State {A--> B} is the 
empty set)
In that event, A's updated state Fa(State{A --> B}, State{A <-- B}) = 
Fa( empty set, State{ A <-- B}), i.e., A's new state is a function of 
state passed from B to A.

Synchronization vs. generalized synchronization:
a) If Fa is the identity function, A's new state is equal to B's passed 
state
b) If Fa is a projection (i.e., it filters state info passed from B to A 
according to what it needs), A's new state is a condensed version of B's 
state (only the relevant parts)
c) If Fa ( alpha, beta) = intersect (alpha, beta), A and B's new state 
is mutually maintained state (which, when replacing "state" with 
"capability", is set of common capabilities)
etc., etc.
NOTE: other functions as possible, of course, as long as these satisfy 
the commutative property above

Your NETCONF scenario below seems to fall under my case c) above.

Obviously, one can extend this in various directions (e.g., state above 
could reflect a vector of attributes, rather than a single attribute 
type, etc.). Conceptually, the scheme would remain the same, though, 
since, e.g., a vector of attributes is another attribute with as type 
the Cartesian product of the component types. {See, here, the beauty of 
abstraction...}

I hope this helps.

This should explain my suggestion #d of my review of 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html):
d) Rather than having a negotiation protocol between two devices, one 
might as well use a synchronization protocol instead, where both devices 
synchronize information of mutual interest. If one device does not have 
current info, this automatically could result in pushing the lacking 
info onto the device.

Even if one still has reservations here, I think it would still be 
beneficial to include in the statement of work the design of a generic 
synchronization scheme (even if one would still keep in negotiation 
schemes as well).

Best regards, Rene





On 9/18/2014 1:14 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote:


        

          
Hi -



          

            
From: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
Sent: Sep 17, 2014 8:21 PM
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02


          

          
...


          

            
Thanks for your note. However, I was looking for an example that you
could state succinctly in technical terms (hence, my "assuming I
understand the details" remark), rather than having to weed through
specification documents and trying to extract the main concepts and do a
comparison.

Of course, I can try and extract the technical problem statement from
specification docs, RFCs, etc., but was hoping to not have to go through
this and just analyze the core of the problem.


          

          
Let's take NETCONF as an example.

At the beginning of a session, each peer advertises to the
other its capabilities.

The intersection (computed independently by the peers) of those
capabilities are presumed to be available for subsequent conversation,
though of course access control or other factors may render use of a
particular capability a moot point, and there's nothing to prevent a
peer from making a request invoking a capability which has not been
negotiated.

There are special rules for protocol version; there the
highest common version "wins."

The whole process is spelled out in the first two paragraphs of
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.1

This doesn't sound anything like synchronization to me, but
perhaps I'm just looking at it incorrectly.

Randy


        

        

-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


      

      
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


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> I think such synchronization approach is worth considering in the
> discussion of the group. Currently I would think it is an alternative
> model compared to other methods to realize negotiation (not sure it is a
> correct assumption... feel free to comment). Maybe some structure
> ("taxonomy") would help to situate the alternatives on a map.

I'd put it this way: in a self-managing network, state synchronisation
is clearly important, as is discovery. But as I suggested in a simple
example yesterday, negotiation is still a step beyond synchronisation,
when the discovered and synchronised state is not the desired state.

The protocol mechanisms for synchronisation and negotiation might be
identical, certainly.

   Brian


From nobody Mon Sep 22 19:48:54 2014
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Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 14:48:47 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
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Rene,

On 17/09/2014 10:42, Rene Struik wrote:
> Dear colleagues:
> 
> Please find below my initial comments on
> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.

...
> b) Section 4 would benefit from including also some head ache areas in
> security configuration, including OCSP, CRLs, policy pushes, device
> provisioning, etc.

Can you sketch this in a bit more detail? I'm having a little
difficulty because I'm not sure how the examples you give
can be turned into self-management. In particular a lot of
this is top-down, isn't it? Or do you think CRLS can be
generated down in the infrstructure?

Regards
    Brian


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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:04:58 +0200
From: Benoit Claise 
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Subject: [Anima] ANIMA webex call tomorrow
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Dear all,

Let me set the stage for ANIMA webex call, which I will join.

The cut-off date for BoF proposal is Sept 26th (see 
http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91)
Tomorrow in the call, we have to decide if
     1. we want to go for an extra BoF?
     2. we want to go for a WG creation (which might or not be effective 
by the Honolulu meeting)?

So basically, I want to hear if there are remaining blocking points with 
the current charter.

Regards, Benoit


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Subject: Re: [Anima] charter-ietf-anima-00-07b//RE: Open Issues, take 2
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Dear all,

The charter attached below has been posted.

Regards, Benoit
> Hi, all,
>
> Please find the attached charter-ietf-anima-00-07b, which could be the base for our teleconf today.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
>> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 11:32 AM
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2
>>
>> Hi, Michael and all,
>>
>> Thanks Michael and Laurent for this open issues list. I am working on next
>> version, charter-ietf-anima-00-07. Several issues has been solved as we made
>> progress through emails. Please see the attached charter-ietf-anima-00-07a.
>> It shorts this list and make it easier for our meeting later today. Summary the
>> solved issues and the shorter list of open issues:
>>
>> Solved:
>>
>>   >- perception that only 2 use cases are allowed.
>>   Response: 2 is specifically advised by ADs to demonstrate the use of
>> common
>>   components while do NOT lose focus. The 2 mentioned are milestones for
>> the
>>   initial stage; other documents are ENCOURAGED as individual submissions,
>> and
>>   may be added in later stage.
>>   ALL use case owners, including individual submissions are encouraged to
>> validate
>>   the proposed autonomic functionalities and report potential issues.
>>
>>   >- Add new use cases to charter?
>>    "Additional work items may only be added
>>   with approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering."
>>
>>   >- Naming the explicit drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
>>    because charter is clear that other documents are acceptable.
>>   And we did reach agreement to remove the draft names in early version.
>>   But our AD has been very clear and insist to have them back. Following
>>   AD's advices would be the best choice.
>>
>>   >- Separate discovery and negotiation functionality in mail goal section
>>   
>>
>>   >- clarify in mile stones (new text refers to location of draft, in brackets)
>>   
>>
>>   >- delete section "Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage"
>>   
>>
>> Shorten list of open issues:
>>
>> Critical Issues / Potential Show-Stoppers
>> =========================================
>>
>> - Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
>> - Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)
>>   pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code.
>>
>> - the term "solution" (Dimitri)
>>   (Dimitri, is there a simple way to fix this without re-doing the entire
>> charter?)
>>
>>
>> Other Issues / Can resolve in WG later
>> ======================================
>>
>> - Not enough supporters on the list (Rene)
>>   (Not sure what we can do about this now)
>>
>>
>> Can resolve now
>> ===============
>>
>> - Division in camps (Rene)
>>   (we're trying to fix this...)
>>
>> Thanks everybody for involvement and contributions. Let's work together to
>> reach consensus for sending requests.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sheng
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 1:08 AM
>>> To: anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2
>>>
>>> Today Laurent and I (same time zone, luxury!) discussed for almost 2 hours
>> on
>>> how to make progress with the charter.
>>>
>>> Laurent had already started a list of open issues, and we continued to work
>>> on that list, below is the output. I wanted to go through all the recent emails
>>> to see whether we missed something, but haven't had the time yet. So the
>>> below text is likely incomplete.
>>>
>>> I propose the following:
>>>
>>> - in the below text, we separated the issues in "critical - must be fixed now",
>>> "can be resolved in WG", and "can resolve now".
>>> - Let's make sure all issues are on this list. So if you raised an issue and it's
>> not
>>> reflected here, please send a mail.
>>>    Please refrain from a complete charter re-write at this point, but be
>>> specific what should be changed where and how  :-)
>>> - When we have all the issues on the list:
>>>   + let's resolve the last category right now; those are the easy ones. Should
>>> be editorial work.
>>>   + let's IGNORE the middle category for now, let's fix those once we have a
>>> WG (or once we cleared the "critical" list)
>>>   + and let's focus the discussion NOW on the critical ones.
>>>
>>> So, for the call tomorrow, shall we focus on the first category and try to
>> bring
>>> them to closure?
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Open Issues
>>>
>>> Critical Issues / Potential Show-Stoppers
>>> =========================================
>>>
>>> - perception that only 2 use cases are allowed.
>>>   response: The 2 mentioned will be working group drafts; other documents
>>>   are ENCOURAGED, but as individual submissions.
>>>   ALL use case owners, including individual submissions are encouraged to
>>> validate
>>>   the proposed autonomic functionalities and report potential issues.
>>>   Note: Add to charter?: Other use cases / solutions can be brought in with
>> a
>>>         Charter change after the first phase is completed.
>>>   Note: not clear in charter right now that the first 2 use cases will be WG
>>> drafts.
>>>         not clear that they may never progress....
>>>
>>> - Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
>>> - Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)
>>>   pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code.
>>>
>>> - the term "solution" (Dimitri)
>>>   (Dimitri, is there a simple way to fix this without re-doing the entire
>>> charter?)
>>>
>>>
>>> Other Issues / Can resolve in WG later
>>> ======================================
>>>
>>> - Naming the explicit drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
>>>
>>> Not critical because charter is clear that other documents are acceptable.
>>>
>>> - Not enough supporters on the list (Rene)
>>>   (Not sure what we can do about this now)
>>>
>>>
>>> Can resolve now
>>> ===============
>>> - change: (Laurent)
>>>    Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic
>>> functions
>>>   to:
>>>    Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>>>    Definition of a negotiation functionality for autonomic functions
>>>
>>>   - clarify in mile stones (new text refers to location of draft, in brackets)
>>>
>>> Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts (see "specific goals")
>>>            - Mar IETF 92nd -
>>> Apr 2015 - adoption of solution draft(s) (see "use cases")
>>> Jun 2015 - WGLC for discovery and negotiation protocol
>>>            - Jul IETF 93rd -
>>> Aug 2015 - submit discovery and negotiation protocol to IESG (standards
>>> track)
>>> Aug 2015 - adoption of overview draft
>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC for trust bootstrap draft
>>> Oct 2015 - WGLC for solution draft(s)
>>>            - Nov IETF 94th -
>>> Dec 2015 - submit trust bootstrap draft to IESG (standards track)
>>> Dec 2015 - submit solution draft(s) to IESG (standards track)
>>> Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft
>>> Jan 2016 - WGLC for overview draft
>>>            - Mar IETF 95th -
>>> Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards track)
>>>
>>> - delete section "Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage"
>>>   (I think we already agreed on that)
>>>
>>>
>>> - Division in camps (Rene)
>>>   (we're trying to fix this...)
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Dear all,

      

      The charter attached below has been posted.

      

      Regards, Benoit

    

    

      
Hi, all,

Please find the attached charter-ietf-anima-00-07b, which could be the base for our teleconf today.

Best regards,

Sheng



      

        
-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 11:32 AM
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2

Hi, Michael and all,

Thanks Michael and Laurent for this open issues list. I am working on next
version, charter-ietf-anima-00-07. Several issues has been solved as we made
progress through emails. Please see the attached charter-ietf-anima-00-07a.
It shorts this list and make it easier for our meeting later today. Summary the
solved issues and the shorter list of open issues:

Solved:

 >- perception that only 2 use cases are allowed.
 Response: 2 is specifically advised by ADs to demonstrate the use of
common
 components while do NOT lose focus. The 2 mentioned are milestones for
the
 initial stage; other documents are ENCOURAGED as individual submissions,
and
 may be added in later stage.
 ALL use case owners, including individual submissions are encouraged to
validate
 the proposed autonomic functionalities and report potential issues.

 >- Add new use cases to charter?
 <New text in the draft charter> "Additional work items may only be added
 with approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering."

 >- Naming the explicit drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).
 <Closed> because charter is clear that other documents are acceptable.
 And we did reach agreement to remove the draft names in early version.
 But our AD has been very clear and insist to have them back. Following
 AD's advices would be the best choice.

 >- Separate discovery and negotiation functionality in mail goal section
 <Done in the new version>

 >- clarify in mile stones (new text refers to location of draft, in brackets)
 <Done in the new version>

 >- delete section "Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage"
 <Done in the new version>

Shorten list of open issues:

Critical Issues / Potential Show-Stoppers
=========================================

- Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
- Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)
 pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code.

- the term "solution" (Dimitri)
 (Dimitri, is there a simple way to fix this without re-doing the entire
charter?)


Other Issues / Can resolve in WG later
======================================

- Not enough supporters on the list (Rene)
 (Not sure what we can do about this now)


Can resolve now
===============

- Division in camps (Rene)
 (we're trying to fix this...)

Thanks everybody for involvement and contributions. Let's work together to
reach consensus for sending requests.

Best regards,

Sheng



        

          
-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Behringer (mbehring)
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 1:08 AM
To: anima@ietf.org
Subject: [Anima] Open Issues, take 2

Today Laurent and I (same time zone, luxury!) discussed for almost 2 hours


        

        
on


        

          
how to make progress with the charter.

Laurent had already started a list of open issues, and we continued to work
on that list, below is the output. I wanted to go through all the recent emails
to see whether we missed something, but haven't had the time yet. So the
below text is likely incomplete.

I propose the following:

- in the below text, we separated the issues in "critical - must be fixed now",
"can be resolved in WG", and "can resolve now".
- Let's make sure all issues are on this list. So if you raised an issue and it's


        

        
not


        

          
reflected here, please send a mail.
  Please refrain from a complete charter re-write at this point, but be
specific what should be changed where and how  :-)
- When we have all the issues on the list:
 + let's resolve the last category right now; those are the easy ones. Should
be editorial work.
 + let's IGNORE the middle category for now, let's fix those once we have a
WG (or once we cleared the "critical" list)
 + and let's focus the discussion NOW on the critical ones.

So, for the call tomorrow, shall we focus on the first category and try to


        

        
bring


        

          
them to closure?

Thoughts?
Michael

----

Open Issues

Critical Issues / Potential Show-Stoppers
=========================================

- perception that only 2 use cases are allowed.
 response: The 2 mentioned will be working group drafts; other documents
 are ENCOURAGED, but as individual submissions.
 ALL use case owners, including individual submissions are encouraged to
validate
 the proposed autonomic functionalities and report potential issues.
 Note: Add to charter?: Other use cases / solutions can be brought in with


        

        
a


        

          
       Charter change after the first phase is completed.
 Note: not clear in charter right now that the first 2 use cases will be WG
drafts.
       not clear that they may never progress....

- Why did those 2 use cases get selected? (Laurent) and
- Specific draft solutions taken as direction (Rene)
 pre-selected on some criteria, ex: Both have running code.

- the term "solution" (Dimitri)
 (Dimitri, is there a simple way to fix this without re-doing the entire
charter?)


Other Issues / Can resolve in WG later
======================================

- Naming the explicit drafts or not (cf thread initiated by Benoit).

Not critical because charter is clear that other documents are acceptable.

- Not enough supporters on the list (Rene)
 (Not sure what we can do about this now)


Can resolve now
===============
- change: (Laurent)
  Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic
functions
 to:
  Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
  Definition of a negotiation functionality for autonomic functions

 - clarify in mile stones (new text refers to location of draft, in brackets)

Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts (see "specific goals")
          - Mar IETF 92nd -
Apr 2015 - adoption of solution draft(s) (see "use cases")
Jun 2015 - WGLC for discovery and negotiation protocol
          - Jul IETF 93rd -
Aug 2015 - submit discovery and negotiation protocol to IESG (standards
track)
Aug 2015 - adoption of overview draft
Oct 2015 - WGLC for trust bootstrap draft
Oct 2015 - WGLC for solution draft(s)
          - Nov IETF 94th -
Dec 2015 - submit trust bootstrap draft to IESG (standards track)
Dec 2015 - submit solution draft(s) to IESG (standards track)
Jan 2016 - WGLC for autonomic control plane draft
Jan 2016 - WGLC for overview draft
          - Mar IETF 95th -
Apr 2016 - submit autonomic control plane draft to IESG (standards track)

- delete section "Potential-future-works-not-for-initial-stage"
 (I think we already agreed on that)


- Division in camps (Rene)
 (we're trying to fix this...)


_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


          

          

          

          
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


        

      

    

    

  


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Concerns on Anima pre-WG status and potential directions to address these (Re: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today)
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Thanks René for your analysis.
Note that it's the role of a WG to discuss how to solve the problems 
(the technical aspects).
At charter time, we have to agree that there are problems to be solved.

Regards, Benoit
> Dear colleagues:
>
> As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the draft 
> charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:
> review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03, see 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html
> review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html
> review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html
> review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html
> review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html
> review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 (still 
> pending)
>
> From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there are lots of 
> questions on the design goals, gaps and design philosophy, and three 
> solution drafts floating around for now. I also had trouble finding a 
> succinct analysis of what is required and what is missing in prior RFC 
> art.
>
> I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and 
> improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the draft 
> charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to understand (also 
> for me after spending considerable time on this). I think the solution 
> drafts leave so many questions and lack so much analysis, that it is 
> highly premature to consider these as suitable basis for working group 
> deliberations.
>
> I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some of the 
> proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as co-author) in 
> all the drafts I critically examined. So, one can choose to move ahead 
> on procedural grounds, no matter technical reservations regarding the 
> foundations of this effort. We are all technical people, though, and I 
> hope you would all agree that we ned to go back to the drawing board 
> and improve the currently shaky foundations first.
>
> Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to include solution 
> drafts in a charter (no matter whether an AD might have suggested so), 
> esp. if one has an extremely hard time to trace any technical 
> discussion on mailing lists. My technical reviews were aimed at 
> filling this void.
>
> Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this topic area 
> is important enough to do right and not start on the wrong footing.
>
> Best regards, Rene
>
> On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:
>> Dear colleagues:
>>
>> I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me circulating 
>> comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the charter, but the AD 
>> artillery at this stage kind of forces me to weigh-in.
>>
>> First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock version 
>> 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did I 
>> participate in the last conference call (in the middle of my sleep 
>> cycle).
>>
>> Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:
>> - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the BOF 
>> had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the call/mailing list 
>> seem to draw in only a handful of people. This does not bode well for 
>> support for the effort. {It could be that people are intimidated by 
>> presumably having to read the drafts mentioned in the charter first 
>> (I was intimidated by this myself, but now did all this, and also 
>> read the 40 page survey on autonomic networking).} This makes me 
>> wonder why not more people are interested. [It has some advantages as 
>> well, since sometimes a small group works better.]
>> - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the draft 
>> charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as deliverable 
>> direction. In my mind, it would be better to describe the problem 
>> areas the soon to be WG is supposed to work on (hence, my question to 
>> you on ACP one para description).
>> - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps" that I 
>> would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to try and 
>> bridge this before sending stuff the direction of an AD (esp. when so 
>> few people are involved)?
>>
>> I would think trying to understand what drives the different "camps" 
>> has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?
>>
>> Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them 
>> happened in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was on 
>> vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the version number does not 
>> indicate concensus or stability.
>>
>> Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area:
>> - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled first in 
>> one para, no other context required, language. Idea here is to make 
>> the charter readable for non-expert readers
>> - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in various 
>> draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the definition 
>> draft and some fundamental ones on each of the three solution drafts).
>>
>> The two items above I had originally plan to complete last weekend; I 
>> hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week.
>>
>> Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a bigger 
>> chance to be addressed by a) having a clear description of what the 
>> group wants to accomplish; (b) having some actual technical 
>> discussion on the solution drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts, 
>> which - so far - have been hard to trace.
>>
>> Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in 
>> circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee ... 
>> and volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important and 
>> useful, if done right).
>>
>> Best regards, Rene
>>
>> On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>> Dimitri,
>>>>
>>>> Michael,
>>>>
>>>> If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do this 
>>>> and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is this"
>>>>
>>> I believe it's covered by the charter.
>>> The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
>>> more modest
>>>
>>>> can you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I am 
>>>> interested in the following part
>>>>
>>>> /[specific goals]/
>>>>
>>>> /o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for autonomic 
>>>> functions/
>>>>
>>>> I have tried to explain during the call that underneath 
>>>> "negotiation" sits theproblem by which a collection of 
>>>> interacting/agents/ aim at reaching agreement in order to realize 
>>>> an "intent" is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address 
>>>> management being outside my scope/interest, how practically the 
>>>> charter does allow me to work in this item when it states:
>>>>
>>>> /The working group will initially consider a simple example as a 
>>>> test case for further work. /
>>>>
>>> That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>>>>
>>>> //
>>>>
>>>> /o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network/
>>>>
>>> I agree that this bullet is not described enough.
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>>
>>>> //
>>>>
>>>> There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter 
>>>> aims defining such component but for instance behind the term 
>>>> negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3 
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is 
>>>> about base information exchange (more precisely a base description 
>>>> of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation object. 
>>>> Thus missing i) the actual "*_negotiation protocols_* are the set 
>>>> of rules that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible 
>>>> types of participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third 
>>>> parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation 
>>>> closed), the events that cause state transitions (e.g., no more 
>>>> bidders, bid accepted), and the valid actions of the participants 
>>>> in particular states (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and 
>>>> at when)." and ii) the *_agents' reasoning models_* which provide 
>>>> "the decision making apparatus by which participants attempt to 
>>>> achieve their objectives. The sophistication of the model is 
>>>> determined by the protocol used, the nature of the negotiation 
>>>> object, and the range of operations that can be performed on it"
>>>>
>>>> Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed 
>>>> be viewed as a "distributed search through a space of potential 
>>>> agreements about some joint problem [...] To improve the efficiency 
>>>> of the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be able to 
>>>> provide more useful feedback on the proposals it receives than just 
>>>> whether or not it agrees to them. This feedback can take the form 
>>>> of a critique (comments on which parts of the proposal the agent 
>>>> likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative proposal 
>>>> generated in response to a proposal). From such feedback, the 
>>>> proposer should be able to generate a proposal which is more likely 
>>>> to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do so).
>>>>
>>>> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On 
>>>> argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the International 
>>>> Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.
>>>>
>>>> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings 
>>>>  
>>>> et al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; 
>>>> Group Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 
>>>> 199-215
>>>>
>>>> Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in 
>>>> Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael 
>>>> Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. 
>>>> Negotiation in multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3 
>>>> (September 1999), pp.285-289.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -dimitri.
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael 
>>>> Behringer (mbehring)
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
>>>> *To:* CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>>
>>>> Laurent,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the 
>>>> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on 
>>>> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't think 
>>>> we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and 
>>>> Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do 
>>>> you agree?
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and 
>>>> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>>>>
>>>> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do 
>>>> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus is 
>>>> this". (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the points 
>>>> you raise MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them when we 
>>>> discuss the solutions.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
>>>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org 
>>>> 
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>>
>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>>>>
>>>> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
>>>> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not suited 
>>>> to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve 
>>>> conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be 
>>>> considered. this is what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation 
>>>> functionality boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).
>>>>
>>>> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop 
>>>> features are in: configuration, protection, healing and 
>>>> optimization. these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>>>>
>>>>     https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93  
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     Michael
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>>>>
>>>>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     Attendees
>>>>
>>>>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     Notes
>>>>
>>>>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>>>>
>>>>     1) Methodology of this working group
>>>>
>>>>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     2) Selection of use cases
>>>>
>>>>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     3) Common infrastructure components
>>>>
>>>>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
>>>>
>>>>     Yes. (no objection)
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>>>>
>>>>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
>>>>
>>>>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
>>>>
>>>>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>>>>
>>>>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
>>>>
>>>>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>>>>
>>>>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>>>>
>>>>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>>>>
>>>>     Brian: Completely agree.
>>>>
>>>>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>>>>
>>>>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
>>>>
>>>>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>>>>
>>>>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
>>>>
>>>>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
>>>>
>>>>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>>>>
>>>>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
>>>>
>>>>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>>>>
>>>>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
>>>>
>>>>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>>>>
>>>>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>>
>>>>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>>>>
>>>>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
>>>>
>>>>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>>>>
>>>>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>>
>>>>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>     Anima mailing list
>>>>
>>>>     Anima@ietf.org  
>>>>
>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>>>
>>>> Advanced Internet Research
>>>>
>>>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>>>
>>>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>>>
>>>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>
>
> -- 
> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Thanks René for your analysis.

      Note that it's the role of a WG to discuss how to solve the
      problems (the technical aspects).

      At charter time, we have to agree that there are problems to be
      solved.

      

      Regards, Benoit

    

    

      
      
Dear colleagues:

        

        As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the
        draft charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:

        review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03, see
        http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html

        review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html

        review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html

        review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html

        review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html

        review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00
        (still pending)

        

        From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there are
        lots of questions on the design goals, gaps and design
        philosophy, and three solution drafts floating around for now. I
        also had trouble finding a succinct analysis of what is required
        and what is missing in prior RFC art.

        

        I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and
        improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the
        draft charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to
        understand (also for me after spending considerable time on
        this). I think the solution drafts leave so many questions and
        lack so much analysis, that it is highly premature to consider
        these as suitable basis for working group deliberations.

        

        I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some of
        the proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as
        co-author) in all the drafts I critically examined. So, one can
        choose to move ahead on procedural grounds, no matter technical
        reservations regarding the foundations of this effort. We are
        all technical people, though, and I hope you would all agree
        that we ned to go back to the drawing board and improve the
        currently shaky foundations first.

        

        Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to include
        solution drafts in a charter (no matter whether an AD might have
        suggested so), esp. if one has an extremely hard time to trace
        any technical discussion on mailing lists. My technical reviews
        were aimed at filling this void.

        

        Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this
        topic area is important enough to do right and not start on the
        wrong footing.

        

        Best regards, Rene

        

        On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:

      

      

        
Dear colleagues:

          

          I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me
          circulating comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the
          charter, but the AD artillery at this stage kind of forces me
          to weigh-in.

          

          First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock
          version 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor
          did I participate in the last conference call (in the middle
          of my sleep cycle). 

          

          Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:

          - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while
          the BOF had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the
          call/mailing list seem to draw in only a handful of people.
          This does not bode well for support for the effort. {It could
          be that people are intimidated by presumably having to read
          the drafts mentioned in the charter first (I was intimidated
          by this myself, but now did all this, and also read the 40
          page survey on autonomic networking).} This makes me wonder
          why not more people are interested. [It has some advantages as
          well, since sometimes a small group works better.] 

          - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the
          draft charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken
          as deliverable direction. In my mind, it would be better to
          describe the problem areas the soon to be WG is supposed to
          work on (hence, my question to you on ACP one para
          description). 

          - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps"
          that I would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better
          to try and bridge this before sending stuff the direction of
          an AD (esp. when so few people are involved)? 

          

          I would think trying to understand what drives the different
          "camps" has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help
          here?

          

          Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of
          them happened in the August time window (when also Benoit
          Claise was on vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the
          version number does not indicate concensus or stability.

          

          Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area: 

          - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled
          first in one para, no other context required, language. Idea
          here is to make the charter readable for non-expert readers 

          - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in
          various draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the
          definition draft and some fundamental ones on each of the
          three solution drafts). 

          

          The two items above I had originally plan to complete last
          weekend; I hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week. 

          

          Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a
          bigger chance to be addressed by a) having a clear description
          of what the group wants to accomplish; (b) having some actual
          technical discussion on the solution drafts, definition/gap
          analysis drafts, which - so far - have been hard to trace.

          

          Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays
          in circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried
          employee ... and volunteer in this efforts, because think it
          is important and useful, if done right).

          

          Best regards, Rene 

          

          On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:

        

        

          
Dimitri,

          

          

            
            
            

              
Michael,
                    

              
If the charter has
                  been sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and
                  nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our initial
                  focus is this”  

                

            

          

          I believe it's covered by the charter.

          
The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
more modest

          

          

            

              
can you explain me how to deal with the
                  following situation. I am
                  interested in the following part

              
[specific


                    goals]

              
o
                    Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol
                    for autonomic functions

              
I have
                  tried to explain during the call that underneath
                  “negotiation” sits the problem by which a
                    collection of interacting agents aim



                    at reaching agreement in order to realize an
                    “intent” is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address



                  management being outside my scope/interest, how
                  practically the charter does allow me to work in this
                  item when it states:

              
The
                    working group will initially consider a simple
                    example as a test case for further work. 

            

          

          That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt

          

            

              

              
o
                    Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management
                    within a network

            

          

          I agree that this bullet is not described enough.

          

          Regards, Benoit

          

            

              

              
There is
                  however a broader technical point of concern, the
                  charter aims defining such component but for instance
                  behind the term negotiation we understand different
                  things Section 2.3 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is
                  about base information exchange (more precisely a base
                  description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as
                  the negotiation object. Thus missing i) the actual “negotiation



                      protocols are the set of rules that govern
                  the interaction. This covers, the permissible types of
                  participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third
                  parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting
                  bids, negotiation closed), the events that cause state
                  transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and
                  the valid actions of the participants in particular
                  states (e.g., which can be sent by whom, to whom and
                  at when).” and ii) the agents’ reasoning models
                  which provide “the decision making apparatus by which
                  participants attempt to achieve their objectives. The
                  sophistication of the model is determined by the
                  protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object,
                  and the range of operations that can be performed on
                  it”

              
Negotiation


                  in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed
                  be viewed as a “distributed search through a space of
                  potential agreements about some joint problem […] To
                  improve the efficiency of the negotiation process, the
                  recipient needs to be able to provide more useful
                  feedback on the proposals it receives than just
                  whether or not it agrees to them. This feedback can
                  take the form of a critique (comments on which parts
                  of the proposal the agent likes or dislikes) or a
                  counter-proposal (an alternative proposal generated in
                  response to a proposal). From such feedback, the
                  proposer should be able to generate a proposal which
                  is more likely to lead to an agreement (if it chooses
                  to do so).

              
 

              
[Jen1998]

                  N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On
                  argumentation-based negotiation, Proceedings of
                    the International Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems,
                  pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

              
 

              
[Jen2001]

                N.R.Jennings
                  et al., Automated
                    Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group



                  Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume


                    10, Issue 2, pp 199-215

              
Please
                  also take a look at the following paper on
                    Negotiation in Multi-Agent Systems from Martin



                  Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings,
                  Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation
                  in multi-agent systems. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3
                  (September 1999), pp.285-289. 

              
 

              
Thanks,

              
-dimitri.

              
 

              

                

                  

                    

                      From:
                        Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org]
                        On Behalf Of Michael Behringer
                        (mbehring)

                        Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM

                        To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org

                        Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA
                        Call Today

                  

                

                
 

                
Laurent, 

                
Thanks for the corrections. It’s
                    difficult to participate in the discussion AND try
                    to catch everything correctly, so I count on
                    everybody to provide such corrections if needed.
                    BTW, I don’t think we need to re-do those notes,
                    since the notes AND your (and Dimitri’s) comments
                    are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do you
                    agree? 

                
Personally, I think a lot of these
                    discussions will be easier and clearer when we’re
                    actually arguing about a protocol or method. 

                
I think the charter has been sometimes
                    misunderstood as “we will do this and nothing else”,
                    whereas the intent is “our initial focus is this”.
                    (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of the
                    points you raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll
                    raise them when we discuss the solutions. 

                
Michael

                
 

                

                  

                    

                      

                        From:
                          Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
                          

                          Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53

                          To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org

                          Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the
                          ANIMA Call Today

                    

                  

                  
 

                  
Dear
                      Michael,

                      

                      Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and
                      driving this call ;)

                      

                      Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two
                      comments of the call)

                      1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a
                      higher level. 

                          --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast
                      communication is not suited to coordinate multiple
                      autonomic functions (how to resolve conflicts,
                      avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be
                      considered. this is what we need to define (i.e.
                      the negotiation functionality boundaries) before
                      specifying the protocol(s).

                       

                      2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                          --> as written in charter -10, the
                      conventional self-chop features are in:
                      configuration, protection, healing and
                      optimization. these should be the minimal basis
                      for the group scope.

                      

                      Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

                  

                    
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael
                        Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

                  

                  

                    
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 

                    
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

                    
 

                    
Michael

                    
 

                    
--

                    
 

                    
 

                    
 

                    
Notes from the ANIMA Call

                    
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

                    
 

                    
Attendees

                    
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

                    
 

                    
Notes

                    
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

                    
 

                    
List of items where we have not consensus:

                    
1) Methodology of this working group

                    
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

                    
 

                    
2) Selection of use cases

                    
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

                    
 

                    
3) Common infrastructure components

                    
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

                    
 

                    
Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 

                    
Yes. (no objection) 

                    
 

                    
Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 

                    
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

                    
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

                    
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

                    
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 

                    
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 

                    
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 

                    
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 

                    
Brian: Completely agree. 

                    
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 

                    
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 

                    
Sheng: This will take too long. 

                    
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 

                    
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 

                    
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 

                    
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 

                    
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 

                    
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

                    
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 

                    
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

                    
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 

                    
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 

                    
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 

                    
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                    
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

                    
 

                    
 

                    
 

                    
_______________________________________________

                    
Anima mailing list

                    
Anima@ietf.org

                    
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

                    
 

                  

                  
 

                  

                    

                      -- 

                    

                      Bien cordialement, Best regards,

                    

                       

                    

                      Laurent Ciavaglia

                    

                      Advanced Internet Research

                    

                      Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

                    

                       

                    

                      phone: +33 160 402 636 

                    

                      email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

                    

                      linkedin: laurentciavaglia

                    

                      address: Route de Villejust | 91620
                        Nozay | France

                  

                

              

            

            

            

            

            
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


          

          

          

          

          

          
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


        

        

        

        
-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

      

      

      

      
-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

      

      

      

      
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Dimitri,

Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid any 
longer, but anyway...
> I have explained technically why you document is not suited as 
> starting point and why initiating the work from the wrong starting 
> point will lead to more problems than be helpful. 
If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody else) 
to write your own draft.

Regards, Benoit


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Hello,

>From the lengthy sequence of discussions we have had during last couple of =
weeks, a face-to-face discussion round IS required.

-> I want to go for an extra BoF

This round of discussion is called BoF at IETF but not picky on the process=
 (this face-to-face discussion could be held during the next IETF but also =
at other venues if felt more suited).

PS: experience tells that by formulating correctly the problem one reaches =
50% of the work.

Many thanks,
-dimitri.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 7:05 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA webex call tomorrow
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Let me set the stage for ANIMA webex call, which I will join.
>=20
> The cut-off date for BoF proposal is Sept 26th (see
> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91)
> Tomorrow in the call, we have to decide if
>      1. we want to go for an extra BoF?
>      2. we want to go for a WG creation (which might or not be effective
> by the Honolulu meeting)?
>=20
> So basically, I want to hear if there are remaining blocking points with
> the current charter.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Wed Sep 24 12:07:35 2014
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Benoit Claise , Sheng Jiang , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHP2CcRPHN5SzeYK0CsWkhsj92e35wQpDpg
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:07:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Benoit,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:41 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Dimitri,
>=20
> Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid any longer,
> but anyway...
> > I have explained technically why you document is not suited as
> > starting point and why initiating the work from the wrong starting
> > point will lead to more problems than be helpful.
> If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody else) t=
o
> write your own draft.

Yes it is.=20

However this doesn't justify listing solution drafts in the charter. On the=
 other let's assume we would like to show there is prior-work ... Why don't=
 we list much more foundational document on multi-agent discovery / negotia=
tion process in multi-agent systems ?

Regards,
-dimitri.

> Regards, Benoit


From nobody Wed Sep 24 13:31:20 2014
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From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Subject: [Anima] Reminder: anima WebEx on Thursday Sept 25 at 0600 UTC
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Webex details: https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m03c593fe104ebb37b784bf1d80096c15
Meeting Password: anima, Meeting Number: 306 341 917

Proposed agenda:

    Final check on charter (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/)
    Discuss draft-author-anima-*-00 drafts to be submitted before IETF 91

FYI: there is a formal BOF request in the system in addition to
the draft WG charter, so we hope to meet at IETF 91 either as a WG
or as a BOF.

Regards
   Brian


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From: Brian E Carpenter 
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To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAF5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234545AE@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF375F4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234546DB@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54231029.6080103@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345F580@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" , Sheng Jiang 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Dimitri,

If you have a specific reading list to suggest, please do so.
(Needless to say, for IETF work, these need to be freely available
documents, not behind a paywall.)

   Brian

On 25/09/2014 07:07, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Benoit,
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:41 PM
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>>
>> Dimitri,
>>
>> Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid any longer,
>> but anyway...
>>> I have explained technically why you document is not suited as
>>> starting point and why initiating the work from the wrong starting
>>> point will lead to more problems than be helpful.
>> If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody else) to
>> write your own draft.
> 
> Yes it is. 
> 
> However this doesn't justify listing solution drafts in the charter. On the other let's assume we would like to show there is prior-work ... Why don't we list much more foundational document on multi-agent discovery / negotiation process in multi-agent systems ?
> 
> Regards,
> -dimitri.
> 
>> Regards, Benoit
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
Thread-Index: AQHP2CcRPHN5SzeYK0CsWkhsj92e35wQpDpg///54oCAACGzAA==
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 20:47:49 +0000
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References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAF5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234545AE@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF375F4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234546DB@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54231029.6080103@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345F580@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54232C91.3020804@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 23:45:20 +0200
From: Benoit Claise 
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To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" ,  Brian E Carpenter 
References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAF5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234545AE@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF375F4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234546DB@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54231029.6080103@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345F580@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54232C91.3020804@gmail.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345F724@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/mC16yiVH3iD06G-Rtj1RGJRtM8M
Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , Sheng Jiang 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Dimitri,

The references you mentioned ...

[Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On 
argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the International 
Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

[Jen2001] N.R.Jennings 
 et 
al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group 
Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 199-215

Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in 
Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, 
Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation in 
multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3 (September 1999), pp.285-289.

... are perfectly fine in draft (I guess), but not appropriate for a 
charter IMO.

Regards, Benoit
> Brian,
>
> I have already sent a couple of freely available readings ref's concerning negotiation and discovery process for multi-agent systems/MAS. Cf. 
>
> Thanks,
> -dimitri.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 10:42 PM
>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>> Cc: Benoit Claise; Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>>
>> Dimitri,
>>
>> If you have a specific reading list to suggest, please do so.
>> (Needless to say, for IETF work, these need to be freely available
>> documents, not behind a paywall.)
>>
>>     Brian
>>
>> On 25/09/2014 07:07, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>>> Benoit,
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:41 PM
>>>> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>>>>
>>>> Dimitri,
>>>>
>>>> Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid any
>>>> longer, but anyway...
>>>>> I have explained technically why you document is not suited as
>>>>> starting point and why initiating the work from the wrong starting
>>>>> point will lead to more problems than be helpful.
>>>> If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody
>>>> else) to write your own draft.
>>> Yes it is.
>>>
>>> However this doesn't justify listing solution drafts in the charter. On
>> the other let's assume we would like to show there is prior-work ... Why
>> don't we list much more foundational document on multi-agent discovery /
>> negotiation process in multi-agent systems ?
>>> Regards,
>>> -dimitri.
>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>


--------------060303060906020600050702
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Dimitri,

      

      The references you mentioned ...

      
[Jen1998]
          N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On
          argumentation-based negotiation,
          Proceedings of the International Workshop on Multi-Agent
            Systems, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

      
[Jen2001]
        N.R.Jennings
          et al., Automated
            Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group
          Decision and Negotiation,
          March
            2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 199-215

      Please also take a
        look at the following paper
        on Negotiation in Multi-Agent Systems from Martin
        Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris Preist,
        and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation in multi-agent systems. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September 1999),
        pp.285-289. 

    

    

    ... are perfectly fine in draft (I guess), but not appropriate for a
    charter IMO.

    

    Regards, Benoit

    

      
Brian,

I have already sent a couple of freely available readings ref's concerning negotiation and discovery process for multi-agent systems/MAS. Cf. <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00261.html>

Thanks,
-dimitri.





      

        
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 10:42 PM
To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
Cc: Benoit Claise; Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA

Dimitri,

If you have a specific reading list to suggest, please do so.
(Needless to say, for IETF work, these need to be freely available
documents, not behind a paywall.)

   Brian

On 25/09/2014 07:07, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:


        

          
Benoit,



          

            
-----Original Message-----
From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:41 PM
To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA

Dimitri,

Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid any
longer, but anyway...


            

              
I have explained technically why you document is not suited as
starting point and why initiating the work from the wrong starting
point will lead to more problems than be helpful.


            

            
If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody
else) to write your own draft.


          

          
Yes it is.

However this doesn't justify listing solution drafts in the charter. On


        

        
the other let's assume we would like to show there is prior-work ... Why
don't we list much more foundational document on multi-agent discovery /
negotiation process in multi-agent systems ?


        

          
Regards,
-dimitri.



          

            
Regards, Benoit


          

          
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



        

      

    

    

  


--------------060303060906020600050702--


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Message-ID: <54234D41.4000409@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:01:21 -0400
From: Rene Struik 
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To: Benoit Claise ,  "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" ,  "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" ,  "CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT)" 
References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C3AD05@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5412ECB4.7080801@alcatel-lucent.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C3C448@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234536B1@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <541317E6.2090100@cisco.com> <54131B5F.9080304@gmail.com> <541AE52C.5020003@gmail.com> <54230D6E.4090402@cisco.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Concerns on Anima pre-WG status and potential directions to address these (Re: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today)
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Hi Benoit:

Thanks for your note. I hope my analysis is useful in improving the 
quality of background material and "solution-oriented documents" alike.

Please note that my analysis does not only deal with "how problems are 
solved"; it also comments on the presumed "foundations" (the definition 
draft and gap analysis) for this effort and "which problems are to be 
solved". My overall conclusion, based on my own detailed review, 
unfortunately is that there is that the work items do not have a solid 
footing in the gap analysis. Thereby, it is not entirely clear that the 
three solution drafts (which are all individual documents that happen to 
be floating around on the nmrg server) are necessarily the right items 
to focus on.

Hence, my reservations with the charter.

This is the scenario I fear will transpire:
- one will approve draft, since "the show must go on"
- there will be three drafts for which a WG adoption email will be 
issued prior to the November meeting
- chairs/some people will argue it should be adopted simply because it 
is there (and since there are no competing drafts)

This will leave no room discussing the merits of the problems these 
drafts are addressing (which, btw, are kind of defined in a circular 
fashion, by simply being defined by the solution drafts that happen to 
be on the nmrg list.

Shouldn't one aim higher and avoid this whole scenario transpiring?

I don't want to be blamed to put a spoke in the wheel, but if I would be 
managing this as a project in a company and would be sitting on budget, 
I would send the teams back to redo their homework, failure of 
completion resulting in zero budget being awarded at this stage.

Best regards, Rene

[excerpt email Rene Struik as of Thu Sep 18, 2014]
I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and improving 
the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the draft charter, 
since those underpinnings are very hard to understand (also for me after 
spending considerable time on this). I think the solution drafts leave 
so many questions and lack so much analysis, that it is highly premature 
to consider these as suitable basis for working group deliberations.

On 9/24/2014 2:29 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Thanks René for your analysis.
> Note that it's the role of a WG to discuss how to solve the problems 
> (the technical aspects).
> At charter time, we have to agree that there are problems to be solved.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>> Dear colleagues:
>>
>> As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the draft 
>> charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:
>> review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03, see 
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html
>> review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see 
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html
>> review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see 
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html
>> review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see 
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html
>> review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see 
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html
>> review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 (still 
>> pending)
>>
>> From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there are lots 
>> of questions on the design goals, gaps and design philosophy, and 
>> three solution drafts floating around for now. I also had trouble 
>> finding a succinct analysis of what is required and what is missing 
>> in prior RFC art.
>>
>> I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and 
>> improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the draft 
>> charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to understand (also 
>> for me after spending considerable time on this). I think the 
>> solution drafts leave so many questions and lack so much analysis, 
>> that it is highly premature to consider these as suitable basis for 
>> working group deliberations.
>>
>> I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some of the 
>> proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as co-author) in 
>> all the drafts I critically examined. So, one can choose to move 
>> ahead on procedural grounds, no matter technical reservations 
>> regarding the foundations of this effort. We are all technical 
>> people, though, and I hope you would all agree that we ned to go back 
>> to the drawing board and improve the currently shaky foundations first.
>>
>> Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to include 
>> solution drafts in a charter (no matter whether an AD might have 
>> suggested so), esp. if one has an extremely hard time to trace any 
>> technical discussion on mailing lists. My technical reviews were 
>> aimed at filling this void.
>>
>> Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this topic 
>> area is important enough to do right and not start on the wrong footing.
>>
>> Best regards, Rene
>>
>> On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:
>>> Dear colleagues:
>>>
>>> I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me 
>>> circulating comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the charter, 
>>> but the AD artillery at this stage kind of forces me to weigh-in.
>>>
>>> First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock version 
>>> 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did I 
>>> participate in the last conference call (in the middle of my sleep 
>>> cycle).
>>>
>>> Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:
>>> - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the BOF 
>>> had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the call/mailing list 
>>> seem to draw in only a handful of people. This does not bode well 
>>> for support for the effort. {It could be that people are intimidated 
>>> by presumably having to read the drafts mentioned in the charter 
>>> first (I was intimidated by this myself, but now did all this, and 
>>> also read the 40 page survey on autonomic networking).} This makes 
>>> me wonder why not more people are interested. [It has some 
>>> advantages as well, since sometimes a small group works better.]
>>> - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the draft 
>>> charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as 
>>> deliverable direction. In my mind, it would be better to describe 
>>> the problem areas the soon to be WG is supposed to work on (hence, 
>>> my question to you on ACP one para description).
>>> - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps" that I 
>>> would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to try and 
>>> bridge this before sending stuff the direction of an AD (esp. when 
>>> so few people are involved)?
>>>
>>> I would think trying to understand what drives the different "camps" 
>>> has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?
>>>
>>> Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them 
>>> happened in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was on 
>>> vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the version number does not 
>>> indicate concensus or stability.
>>>
>>> Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area:
>>> - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled first 
>>> in one para, no other context required, language. Idea here is to 
>>> make the charter readable for non-expert readers
>>> - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in various 
>>> draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the definition 
>>> draft and some fundamental ones on each of the three solution drafts).
>>>
>>> The two items above I had originally plan to complete last weekend; 
>>> I hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week.
>>>
>>> Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a bigger 
>>> chance to be addressed by a) having a clear description of what the 
>>> group wants to accomplish; (b) having some actual technical 
>>> discussion on the solution drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts, 
>>> which - so far - have been hard to trace.
>>>
>>> Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in 
>>> circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee ... 
>>> and volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important and 
>>> useful, if done right).
>>>
>>> Best regards, Rene
>>>
>>> On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>> Dimitri,
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do 
>>>>> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus 
>>>>> is this"
>>>>>
>>>> I believe it's covered by the charter.
>>>> The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
>>>> more modest
>>>>
>>>>> can you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I am 
>>>>> interested in the following part
>>>>>
>>>>> /[specific goals]/
>>>>>
>>>>> /o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for 
>>>>> autonomic functions/
>>>>>
>>>>> I have tried to explain during the call that underneath 
>>>>> "negotiation" sits theproblem by which a collection of 
>>>>> interacting/agents/ aim at reaching agreement in order to realize 
>>>>> an "intent" is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address 
>>>>> management being outside my scope/interest, how practically the 
>>>>> charter does allow me to work in this item when it states:
>>>>>
>>>>> /The working group will initially consider a simple example as a 
>>>>> test case for further work. /
>>>>>
>>>> That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See 
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> //
>>>>>
>>>>> /o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a network/
>>>>>
>>>> I agree that this bullet is not described enough.
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>>>
>>>>> //
>>>>>
>>>>> There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter 
>>>>> aims defining such component but for instance behind the term 
>>>>> negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3 
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is 
>>>>> about base information exchange (more precisely a base description 
>>>>> of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation object. 
>>>>> Thus missing i) the actual "*_negotiation protocols_* are the set 
>>>>> of rules that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible 
>>>>> types of participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third 
>>>>> parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids, 
>>>>> negotiation closed), the events that cause state transitions 
>>>>> (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and the valid actions of 
>>>>> the participants in particular states (e.g., which can be sent by 
>>>>> whom, to whom and at when)." and ii) the *_agents' reasoning 
>>>>> models_* which provide "the decision making apparatus by which 
>>>>> participants attempt to achieve their objectives. The 
>>>>> sophistication of the model is determined by the protocol used, 
>>>>> the nature of the negotiation object, and the range of operations 
>>>>> that can be performed on it"
>>>>>
>>>>> Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed 
>>>>> be viewed as a "distributed search through a space of potential 
>>>>> agreements about some joint problem [...] To improve the 
>>>>> efficiency of the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be 
>>>>> able to provide more useful feedback on the proposals it receives 
>>>>> than just whether or not it agrees to them. This feedback can take 
>>>>> the form of a critique (comments on which parts of the proposal 
>>>>> the agent likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative 
>>>>> proposal generated in response to a proposal). From such feedback, 
>>>>> the proposer should be able to generate a proposal which is more 
>>>>> likely to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do so).
>>>>>
>>>>> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On 
>>>>> argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the International 
>>>>> Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings 
>>>>>  
>>>>> et al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; 
>>>>> Group Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp 
>>>>> 199-215
>>>>>
>>>>> Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in 
>>>>> Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael 
>>>>> Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. 
>>>>> Negotiation in multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3 
>>>>> (September 1999), pp.285-289.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> -dimitri.
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
>>>>> *Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
>>>>> *To:* CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>>>
>>>>> Laurent,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the 
>>>>> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on 
>>>>> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't 
>>>>> think we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and 
>>>>> Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do 
>>>>> you agree?
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and 
>>>>> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will 
>>>>> do this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial 
>>>>> focus is this". (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of 
>>>>> the points you raise MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them 
>>>>> when we discuss the solutions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia 
>>>>> [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
>>>>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org 
>>>>> 
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
>>>>> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>>>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not 
>>>>> suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve 
>>>>> conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be 
>>>>> considered. this is what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation 
>>>>> functionality boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>>>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop 
>>>>> features are in: configuration, protection, healing and 
>>>>> optimization. these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>>>>>
>>>>>     https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93  
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     --
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>>>>>
>>>>>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     Attendees
>>>>>
>>>>>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     Notes
>>>>>
>>>>>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>>>>>
>>>>>     1) Methodology of this working group
>>>>>
>>>>>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     2) Selection of use cases
>>>>>
>>>>>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     3) Common infrastructure components
>>>>>
>>>>>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
>>>>>
>>>>>     Yes. (no objection)
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Brian: Completely agree.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>>>>>
>>>>>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>>>>>
>>>>>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>     Anima mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>>     Anima@ietf.org  
>>>>>
>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>
>>>>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>>>>
>>>>> Advanced Internet Research
>>>>>
>>>>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>>>>
>>>>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>>>>
>>>>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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Hi Benoit:

      

      Thanks for your note. I hope my analysis is useful in improving
      the quality of background material and "solution-oriented
      documents" alike. 

      

      Please note that my analysis does not only deal with "how problems
      are solved"; it also comments on the presumed "foundations" (the
      definition draft and gap analysis) for this effort and "which
      problems are to be solved". My overall conclusion, based on my own
      detailed review, unfortunately is that there is that the work
      items do not have a solid footing in the gap analysis. Thereby, it
      is not entirely clear that the three solution drafts (which are
      all individual documents that happen to be floating around on the
      nmrg server) are necessarily the right items to focus on. 

      

      Hence, my reservations with the charter. 

      

      This is the scenario I fear will transpire:

      - one will approve draft, since "the show must go on"

      - there will be three drafts for which a WG adoption email will be
      issued prior to the November meeting

      - chairs/some people will argue it should be adopted simply
      because it is there (and since there are no competing drafts)

      

      This will leave no room discussing the merits of the problems
      these drafts are addressing (which, btw, are kind of defined in a
      circular fashion, by simply being defined by the solution drafts
      that happen to be on the nmrg list. 

      

      Shouldn't one aim higher and avoid this whole scenario
      transpiring? 

      

      I don't want to be blamed to put a spoke in the wheel, but if I
      would be managing this as a project in a company and would be
      sitting on budget, I would send the teams back to redo their
      homework, failure of completion resulting in zero budget being
      awarded at this stage.

      

      Best regards, Rene

      

      [excerpt email Rene Struik as of Thu Sep 18, 2014]

      I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and
      improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the
      draft charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to
      understand (also for me after spending considerable time on this).
      I think the solution drafts leave so many questions and lack so
      much analysis, that it is highly premature to consider these as
      suitable basis for working group deliberations.

       

      On 9/24/2014 2:29 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:

    

    

      
      
Thanks René for your analysis.

        Note that it's the role of a WG to discuss how to solve the
        problems (the technical aspects).

        At charter time, we have to agree that there are problems to be
        solved.

        

        Regards, Benoit

      

      

        
        
Dear colleagues:

          

          As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the
          draft charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:

          review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03,
          see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html

          review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html

          review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html

          review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html

          review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html

          review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00
          (still pending)

          

          From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there are
          lots of questions on the design goals, gaps and design
          philosophy, and three solution drafts floating around for now.
          I also had trouble finding a succinct analysis of what is
          required and what is missing in prior RFC art.

          

          I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and
          improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin
          the draft charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to
          understand (also for me after spending considerable time on
          this). I think the solution drafts leave so many questions and
          lack so much analysis, that it is highly premature to consider
          these as suitable basis for working group deliberations.

          

          I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some of
          the proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as
          co-author) in all the drafts I critically examined. So, one
          can choose to move ahead on procedural grounds, no matter
          technical reservations regarding the foundations of this
          effort. We are all technical people, though, and I hope you
          would all agree that we ned to go back to the drawing board
          and improve the currently shaky foundations first.

          

          Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to include
          solution drafts in a charter (no matter whether an AD might
          have suggested so), esp. if one has an extremely hard time to
          trace any technical discussion on mailing lists. My technical
          reviews were aimed at filling this void.

          

          Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this
          topic area is important enough to do right and not start on
          the wrong footing.

          

          Best regards, Rene

          

          On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:

        

        

          
Dear colleagues:

            

            I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me
            circulating comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the
            charter, but the AD artillery at this stage kind of forces
            me to weigh-in.

            

            First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock
            version 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor
            did I participate in the last conference call (in the middle
            of my sleep cycle). 

            

            Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:

            - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while
            the BOF had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the
            call/mailing list seem to draw in only a handful of people.
            This does not bode well for support for the effort. {It
            could be that people are intimidated by presumably having to
            read the drafts mentioned in the charter first (I was
            intimidated by this myself, but now did all this, and also
            read the 40 page survey on autonomic networking).} This
            makes me wonder why not more people are interested. [It has
            some advantages as well, since sometimes a small group works
            better.] 

            - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of
            the draft charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly
            taken as deliverable direction. In my mind, it would be
            better to describe the problem areas the soon to be WG is
            supposed to work on (hence, my question to you on ACP one
            para description). 

            - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in
            "camps" that I would like to understand better. Wouldn't it
            be better to try and bridge this before sending stuff the
            direction of an AD (esp. when so few people are involved)? 

            

            I would think trying to understand what drives the different
            "camps" has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help
            here?

            

            Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of
            them happened in the August time window (when also Benoit
            Claise was on vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the
            version number does not indicate concensus or stability.

            

            Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area: 

            - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled
            first in one para, no other context required, language. Idea
            here is to make the charter readable for non-expert readers
            

            - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in
            various draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g.,
            the definition draft and some fundamental ones on each of
            the three solution drafts). 

            

            The two items above I had originally plan to complete last
            weekend; I hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week.
            

            

            Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a
            bigger chance to be addressed by a) having a clear
            description of what the group wants to accomplish; (b)
            having some actual technical discussion on the solution
            drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts, which - so far -
            have been hard to trace.

            

            Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for
            delays in circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a
            salaried employee ... and volunteer in this efforts, because
            think it is important and useful, if done right).

            

            Best regards, Rene 

            

            On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:

          

          

            
Dimitri,

            

            

              
              
              

                
Michael,

                      

                
If the charter has
                    been sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and
                    nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our initial
                    focus is this”  

                  

              

            

            I believe it's covered by the charter.

            
The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
more modest

            

            

              

                
can you explain me how to deal with the
                    following situation. I am
                    interested in the following part

                
[specific



                      goals]

                
o
                      Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol
                      for autonomic functions

                
I have
                    tried to explain during the call that underneath
                    “negotiation” sits the problem by which a
                      collection of interacting agents aim




                      at reaching agreement in order to realize an
                      “intent” is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address




                    management being outside my scope/interest, how
                    practically the charter does allow me to work in
                    this item when it states:

                
The
                      working group will initially consider a simple
                      example as a test case for further work. 

              

            

            That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt

            

              

                

                
o
                      Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management
                      within a network

              

            

            I agree that this bullet is not described enough.

            

            Regards, Benoit

            

              

                

                
There
                    is however a broader technical point of concern, the
                    charter aims defining such component but for
                    instance behind the term negotiation we understand
                    different things Section 2.3 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is
                    about base information exchange (more precisely a
                    base description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001]
                    describes as the negotiation object. Thus missing i)
                    the actual “negotiation protocols are
                    the set of rules that govern the interaction. This
                    covers, the permissible types of participants (e.g.,
                    the negotiators and relevant third parties), the
                    negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids,
                    negotiation closed), the events that cause state
                    transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted),
                    and the valid actions of the participants in
                    particular states (e.g., which can be sent by whom,
                    to whom and at when).” and ii) the agents’
                        reasoning models which provide “the
                    decision making apparatus by which participants
                    attempt to achieve their objectives. The
                    sophistication of the model is determined by the
                    protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object,
                    and the range of operations that can be performed on
                    it”

                
Negotiation



                    in the present context following [Jen1998] can
                    indeed be viewed as a “distributed search through a
                    space of potential agreements about some joint
                    problem […] To improve the efficiency of the
                    negotiation process, the recipient needs to be able
                    to provide more useful feedback on the proposals it
                    receives than just whether or not it agrees to them.
                    This feedback can take the form of a critique
                    (comments on which parts of the proposal the agent
                    likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an
                    alternative proposal generated in response to a
                    proposal). From such feedback, the proposer should
                    be able to generate a proposal which is more likely
                    to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do so).

                
 

                
[Jen1998]


                    N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On
                    argumentation-based negotiation, Proceedings of
                      the International Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems,
                    pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

                
 

                
[Jen2001]


                  N.R.Jennings
                    et al., Automated
                      Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; Group




                    Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume



                      10, Issue 2, pp 199-215

                
Please
                    also take a look at the following paper on
                      Negotiation in Multi-Agent Systems from Martin




                    Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings,
                    Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999.
                    Negotiation in multi-agent systems. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3
                    (September 1999), pp.285-289. 

                
 

                
Thanks,

                
-dimitri.

                
 

                

                  

                    

                      

                        From:
                          Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org]
                          On Behalf Of Michael Behringer
                          (mbehring)

                          Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06
                          PM

                          To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org

                          Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the
                          ANIMA Call Today

                    

                  

                  
 

                  
Laurent, 

                  
Thanks for the corrections. It’s
                      difficult to participate in the discussion AND try
                      to catch everything correctly, so I count on
                      everybody to provide such corrections if needed.
                      BTW, I don’t think we need to re-do those notes,
                      since the notes AND your (and Dimitri’s) comments
                      are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do you
                      agree? 

                  
Personally, I think a lot of these
                      discussions will be easier and clearer when we’re
                      actually arguing about a protocol or method. 

                  
I think the charter has been
                      sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and
                      nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our initial
                      focus is this”. (And we say this explicitly)  In
                      my view all of the points you raise MUST be
                      raised, but I think we’ll raise them when we
                      discuss the solutions. 

                  
Michael

                  
 

                  

                    

                      

                        

                          From:
                            Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
                            

                            Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53

                            To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org

                            Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the
                            ANIMA Call Today

                      

                    

                    
 

                    
Dear
                        Michael,

                        

                        Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and
                        driving this call ;)

                        

                        Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two
                        comments of the call)

                        1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a
                        higher level. 

                            --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast
                        communication is not suited to coordinate
                        multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve
                        conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other
                        means should be considered. this is what we need
                        to define (i.e. the negotiation functionality
                        boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).

                         

                        2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                            --> as written in charter -10, the
                        conventional self-chop features are in:
                        configuration, protection, healing and
                        optimization. these should be the minimal basis
                        for the group scope.

                        

                        Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

                    

                      
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael
                          Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

                    

                    

                      
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 

                      
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

                      
 

                      
Michael

                      
 

                      
--

                      
 

                      
 

                      
 

                      
Notes from the ANIMA Call

                      
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

                      
 

                      
Attendees

                      
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

                      
 

                      
Notes

                      
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

                      
 

                      
List of items where we have not consensus:

                      
1) Methodology of this working group

                      
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

                      
 

                      
2) Selection of use cases

                      
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

                      
 

                      
3) Common infrastructure components

                      
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

                      
 

                      
Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 

                      
Yes. (no objection) 

                      
 

                      
Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 

                      
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

                      
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

                      
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

                      
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 

                      
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 

                      
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 

                      
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 

                      
Brian: Completely agree. 

                      
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 

                      
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 

                      
Sheng: This will take too long. 

                      
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 

                      
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 

                      
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 

                      
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 

                      
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 

                      
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

                      
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 

                      
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

                      
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 

                      
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 

                      
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 

                      
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                      
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

                      
 

                      
 

                      
 

                      
_______________________________________________

                      
Anima mailing list

                      
Anima@ietf.org

                      
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

                      
 

                    

                    
 

                    

                      

                        -- 

                      

                        Bien cordialement, Best regards,

                      

                         

                      

                        Laurent Ciavaglia

                      

                        Advanced Internet Research

                      

                        Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

                      

                         

                      

                        phone: +33 160 402 636 

                      

                        email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

                      

                        linkedin: laurentciavaglia

                      

                        address: Route de Villejust |
                          91620 Nozay | France

                    

                  

                

              

              

              

              

              
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


            

            

            

            

            

            
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


          

          

          

          
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-- 
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cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

        

        

        

        
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Hi Benoit:

Just a brief note (just in case I misinterpreted you here): I hope I am 
right in the sense that you are not arguing to adopt a draft, simply 
because there are currently no competing drafts, right? Draft should be 
judged on their merit and the merits of ideas incorporated in these and 
not on the basis of "electing a candidate, since there is only one on 
the list, no matter the profile/characteristics that should exhibited". 
In my mind, it is perfectly fine to have a vacancy for a while (to 
continue the candidacy analogy), if one has not found the proper 
candidate yt or has moving job descriptions.

Best regards, Rene

==
If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody else) 
to write your own draft.

On 9/24/2014 2:40 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dimitri,
>
> Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid any 
> longer, but anyway...
>> I have explained technically why you document is not suited as 
>> starting point and why initiating the work from the wrong starting 
>> point will lead to more problems than be helpful. 
> If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody 
> else) to write your own draft.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Cc: Benoit Claise , "CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT \(LAURENT\)" , "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri \(Dimitri\)" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Concerns on Anima pre-WG status and potential directions to address these (Re: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today)
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Rene,

On 25/09/2014 11:01, Rene Struik wrote:
> Hi Benoit:
>=20
> Thanks for your note. I hope my analysis is useful in improving the
> quality of background material and "solution-oriented documents" alike.=

>=20
> Please note that my analysis does not only deal with "how problems are
> solved"; it also comments on the presumed "foundations" (the definition=

> draft and gap analysis) for this effort and "which problems are to be
> solved". My overall conclusion, based on my own detailed review,
> unfortunately is that there is that the work items do not have a solid
> footing in the gap analysis. Thereby, it is not entirely clear that the=

> three solution drafts (which are all individual documents that happen t=
o
> be floating around on the nmrg server) are necessarily the right items
> to focus on.
>=20
> Hence, my reservations with the charter.
>=20
> This is the scenario I fear will transpire:
> - one will approve draft, since "the show must go on"
> - there will be three drafts for which a WG adoption email will be
> issued prior to the November meeting

I truly doubt that. I don't think there will be time, even if the
WG is chartered as quickly as humanly possible. Also, the idea of
the various authors is that those drafts all need to be transformed
into draft-author-anima-*-00 drafts in the light of the charter,
and then take their chances in WG discussion. And of course other people
are at liberty to post their own draft-author-anima-*-00 drafts too.

If you look at the draft agenda currently posted in the BOF wiki,
you will see a lot time for discussion.
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart#ANIMAproposal

    Brian

> - chairs/some people will argue it should be adopted simply because it
> is there (and since there are no competing drafts)
>=20
> This will leave no room discussing the merits of the problems these
> drafts are addressing (which, btw, are kind of defined in a circular
> fashion, by simply being defined by the solution drafts that happen to
> be on the nmrg list.
>=20
> Shouldn't one aim higher and avoid this whole scenario transpiring?
>=20
> I don't want to be blamed to put a spoke in the wheel, but if I would b=
e
> managing this as a project in a company and would be sitting on budget,=

> I would send the teams back to redo their homework, failure of
> completion resulting in zero budget being awarded at this stage.
>=20
> Best regards, Rene
>=20
> [excerpt email Rene Struik as of Thu Sep 18, 2014]
> I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and improvin=
g
> the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the draft charter,
> since those underpinnings are very hard to understand (also for me afte=
r
> spending considerable time on this). I think the solution drafts leave
> so many questions and lack so much analysis, that it is highly prematur=
e
> to consider these as suitable basis for working group deliberations.
>=20
> On 9/24/2014 2:29 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Thanks Ren=C3=A9 for your analysis.
>> Note that it's the role of a WG to discuss how to solve the problems
>> (the technical aspects).
>> At charter time, we have to agree that there are problems to be solved=
=2E
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>> Dear colleagues:
>>>
>>> As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the draft
>>> charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:
>>> review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03, see
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html
>>> review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html
>>> review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html
>>> review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html
>>> review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html
>>> review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 (still
>>> pending)
>>>
>>> From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there are lots
>>> of questions on the design goals, gaps and design philosophy, and
>>> three solution drafts floating around for now. I also had trouble
>>> finding a succinct analysis of what is required and what is missing
>>> in prior RFC art.
>>>
>>> I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and
>>> improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the draft=

>>> charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to understand (also
>>> for me after spending considerable time on this). I think the
>>> solution drafts leave so many questions and lack so much analysis,
>>> that it is highly premature to consider these as suitable basis for
>>> working group deliberations.
>>>
>>> I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some of the
>>> proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as co-author) in
>>> all the drafts I critically examined. So, one can choose to move
>>> ahead on procedural grounds, no matter technical reservations
>>> regarding the foundations of this effort. We are all technical
>>> people, though, and I hope you would all agree that we ned to go back=

>>> to the drawing board and improve the currently shaky foundations firs=
t.
>>>
>>> Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to include
>>> solution drafts in a charter (no matter whether an AD might have
>>> suggested so), esp. if one has an extremely hard time to trace any
>>> technical discussion on mailing lists. My technical reviews were
>>> aimed at filling this void.
>>>
>>> Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this topic
>>> area is important enough to do right and not start on the wrong footi=
ng.
>>>
>>> Best regards, Rene
>>>
>>> On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:
>>>> Dear colleagues:
>>>>
>>>> I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me
>>>> circulating comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the charter,=

>>>> but the AD artillery at this stage kind of forces me to weigh-in.
>>>>
>>>> First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock version
>>>> 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did I
>>>> participate in the last conference call (in the middle of my sleep
>>>> cycle).
>>>>
>>>> Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:
>>>> - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the BOF=

>>>> had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the call/mailing list
>>>> seem to draw in only a handful of people. This does not bode well
>>>> for support for the effort. {It could be that people are intimidated=

>>>> by presumably having to read the drafts mentioned in the charter
>>>> first (I was intimidated by this myself, but now did all this, and
>>>> also read the 40 page survey on autonomic networking).} This makes
>>>> me wonder why not more people are interested. [It has some
>>>> advantages as well, since sometimes a small group works better.]
>>>> - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the draft
>>>> charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as
>>>> deliverable direction. In my mind, it would be better to describe
>>>> the problem areas the soon to be WG is supposed to work on (hence,
>>>> my question to you on ACP one para description).
>>>> - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps" that I=

>>>> would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to try and
>>>> bridge this before sending stuff the direction of an AD (esp. when
>>>> so few people are involved)?
>>>>
>>>> I would think trying to understand what drives the different "camps"=

>>>> has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?
>>>>
>>>> Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them
>>>> happened in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was on
>>>> vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the version number does not
>>>> indicate concensus or stability.
>>>>
>>>> Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area:
>>>> - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled first
>>>> in one para, no other context required, language. Idea here is to
>>>> make the charter readable for non-expert readers
>>>> - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in various
>>>> draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the definition
>>>> draft and some fundamental ones on each of the three solution drafts=
).
>>>>
>>>> The two items above I had originally plan to complete last weekend;
>>>> I hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a bigger
>>>> chance to be addressed by a) having a clear description of what the
>>>> group wants to accomplish; (b) having some actual technical
>>>> discussion on the solution drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts,
>>>> which - so far - have been hard to trace.
>>>>
>>>> Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in
>>>> circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee ...
>>>> and volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important and
>>>> useful, if done right).
>>>>
>>>> Best regards, Rene
>>>>
>>>> On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>>> Dimitri,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do
>>>>>> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus
>>>>>> is this"
>>>>>>
>>>>> I believe it's covered by the charter.
>>>>> The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is m=
uch
>>>>> more modest
>>>>>
>>>>>> can you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I am
>>>>>> interested in the following part
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /[specific goals]/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for
>>>>>> autonomic functions/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have tried to explain during the call that underneath
>>>>>> "negotiation" sits theproblem by which a collection of
>>>>>> interacting/agents/ aim at reaching agreement in order to realize
>>>>>> an "intent" is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address
>>>>>> management being outside my scope/interest, how practically the
>>>>>> charter does allow me to work in this item when it states:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /The working group will initially consider a simple example as a
>>>>>> test case for further work. /
>>>>>>
>>>>> That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.=
org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=3D--ht=
ml&submit=3DGo!&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter=
-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> //
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a
>>>>>> network/
>>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that this bullet is not described enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> //
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is however a broader technical point of concern, the charter=

>>>>>> aims defining such component but for instance behind the term
>>>>>> negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is=

>>>>>> about base information exchange (more precisely a base description=

>>>>>> of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the negotiation object.
>>>>>> Thus missing i) the actual "*_negotiation protocols_* are the set
>>>>>> of rules that govern the interaction. This covers, the permissible=

>>>>>> types of participants (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third
>>>>>> parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting bids,
>>>>>> negotiation closed), the events that cause state transitions
>>>>>> (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and the valid actions of
>>>>>> the participants in particular states (e.g., which can be sent by
>>>>>> whom, to whom and at when)." and ii) the *_agents' reasoning
>>>>>> models_* which provide "the decision making apparatus by which
>>>>>> participants attempt to achieve their objectives. The
>>>>>> sophistication of the model is determined by the protocol used,
>>>>>> the nature of the negotiation object, and the range of operations
>>>>>> that can be performed on it"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed
>>>>>> be viewed as a "distributed search through a space of potential
>>>>>> agreements about some joint problem [...] To improve the
>>>>>> efficiency of the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be
>>>>>> able to provide more useful feedback on the proposals it receives
>>>>>> than just whether or not it agrees to them. This feedback can take=

>>>>>> the form of a critique (comments on which parts of the proposal
>>>>>> the agent likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an alternative=

>>>>>> proposal generated in response to a proposal). From such feedback,=

>>>>>> the proposer should be able to generate a proposal which is more
>>>>>> likely to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do so).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On
>>>>>> argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the International=

>>>>>> Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> et al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges;
>>>>>> Group Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp=

>>>>>> 199-215
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in
>>>>>> Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael
>>>>>> Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999.
>>>>>> Negotiation in multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3
>>>>>> (September 1999), pp.285-289.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -dimitri.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:*Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>>> *Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
>>>>>> *To:* CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laurent,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the
>>>>>> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on
>>>>>> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't
>>>>>> think we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and
>>>>>> Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. Do=

>>>>>> you agree?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and
>>>>>> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will
>>>>>> do this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial
>>>>>> focus is this". (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of
>>>>>> the points you raise MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them
>>>>>> when we discuss the solutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia
>>>>>> [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>>> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
>>>>>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;=
)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)=

>>>>>> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>>>>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not
>>>>>> suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve
>>>>>> conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be
>>>>>> considered. this is what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation
>>>>>> functionality boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>>>>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop
>>>>>> features are in: configuration, protection, healing and
>>>>>> optimization. these should be the minimal basis for the group scop=
e.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   =20
>>>>>> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Db7a36fd25d7946d6=
a843aff0927d7a93=20
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     Attendees
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent
>>>>>> Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     Notes
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view
>>>>>> on things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     1) Methodology of this working group
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down=
=2E
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     2) Selection of use cases
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the=

>>>>>> first use cases?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     3) Common infrastructure components
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE
>>>>>> working on use cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic
>>>>>> service agents?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Yes. (no objection)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use=

>>>>>> case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need=

>>>>>> to first understand communication layer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are
>>>>>> different modes. Negotiation for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one
>>>>>> proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the
>>>>>> chosen one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is=

>>>>>> not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group,
>>>>>> to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements
>>>>>> to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the
>>>>>> wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Brian: Completely agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the
>>>>>> requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about
>>>>>> functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to
>>>>>> translate this into protocols.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods,
>>>>>> and expand as needed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other
>>>>>> mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The
>>>>>> charter must allow this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional
>>>>>> requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements
>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against
>>>>>> architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is
>>>>>> key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for
>>>>>> intserv/diffserv.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation
>>>>>> method?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements.
>>>>>> Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad
>>>>>> set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We
>>>>>> should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need
>>>>>> three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2)
>>>>>> self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work
>>>>>> on. We don't know them yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Anima mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Anima@ietf.org  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Advanced Internet Research
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>>>>>
>>>>>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>>>>>
>>>>>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --=20
>>>> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
>>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>>
>>>
>>> --=20
>>> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Benoit Claise , Brian E Carpenter 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Message-ID: <54237BEC.4010505@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:20:28 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAF5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234545AE@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF375F4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234546DB@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54231029.6080103@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345F580@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54232C91.3020804@gmail.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345F724@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54233B70.1070508@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323460A82@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/FYKDBFpnExlsczDQ9RofuE9M0xY
Cc: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" , Sheng Jiang 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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On 25/09/2014 13:55, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Hi Benoit,
>=20
> These documents provide clearer definitions of what negotiation means a=
nd implies (in particular they don=E2=80=99t limit negotiation to =E2=80=9C=
messaging=E2=80=9D

I'm confused. We design protocols here, so negotiation that doesn't
involve messages is by definition not in scope. Certainly I'd expect
the negotiation *algorithm* to depend heavily on the application...

> i.e. specific data formats exchanges).=20

=2E..and I would also expect the message format to depend heavily on
the application.

> These can be tuned for the needs of this effort as it progresses but at=
 least there would be a common understanding of what the protocol work wo=
uld cover.

In that case, why don't you contribute a draft that does exactly that?
Of the three drafts you mention, [Jen2001] is behind the Springer
pay wall so not much use for IETF purposes, and [Jen1998] seems to me to =
be
too general to actually tell me anything. [Beer1999] tells me one
interesting thing in particular:

"Can all aspects of negotiation be incorporated into predefined communica=
tion protocols?
Most members of the panel suggested that this is not possible and that it=
 is the agent=E2=80=99s reasoning
model that is the key to successful negotiation."

That certainly seems true, which argues for a very simple underlying
protocol with minimal complexity.

Anyway, a draft written in IETF-speak that summarises the academic work
would, I think, be very helpful.

   Brian

> This is what is currently missing towards an effective contribution pro=
cess=E2=80=A6 do you think appropriate to face situations where after con=
tributing one ends up with comments such as =E2=80=9Csorry this is not wh=
at we mean by negotiation/discovery=E2=80=9D and endless discussions betw=
een what some hypothetically meant (or not) and contributors understandin=
g ?
>=20
> Thanks,
> -dimitri.
>=20
>=20
> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 11:45 PM
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Brian E Carpenter
> Cc: Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
> Dimitri,
>=20
> The references you mentioned ...
> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On argument=
ation-based negotiation, Proceedings of the International Workshop on Mul=
ti-Agent Systems, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.
> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings et al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and=
 Challenges; Group Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue=
 2, pp 199-215
> Please also take a look at the following paper on Negotiation in Multi-=
Agent Systems from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennin=
gs, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation in multi-agent=
 systems. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3 (September 1999), pp.285-289.
>=20
> ... are perfectly fine in draft (I guess), but not appropriate for a ch=
arter IMO.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
>=20
>=20
> Brian,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have already sent a couple of freely available readings ref's concern=
ing negotiation and discovery process for multi-agent systems/MAS. Cf. 
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> -dimitri.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 10:42 PM
>=20
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)
>=20
> Cc: Benoit Claise; Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Dimitri,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If you have a specific reading list to suggest, please do so.
>=20
> (Needless to say, for IETF work, these need to be freely available
>=20
> documents, not behind a paywall.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    Brian
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 25/09/2014 07:07, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
>=20
> Benoit,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:41 PM
>=20
> To: Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri); Sheng Jiang; anima@ietf.org
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Dimitri,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid any
>=20
> longer, but anyway...
>=20
> I have explained technically why you document is not suited as
>=20
> starting point and why initiating the work from the wrong starting
>=20
> point will lead to more problems than be helpful.
>=20
> If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody
>=20
> else) to write your own draft.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yes it is.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> However this doesn't justify listing solution drafts in the charter. On=

>=20
> the other let's assume we would like to show there is prior-work ... Wh=
y
>=20
> don't we list much more foundational document on multi-agent discovery =
/
>=20
> negotiation process in multi-agent systems ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> -dimitri.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> Anima mailing list
>=20
> Anima@ietf.org
>=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , Benoit Claise , Brian E Carpenter 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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From: Sheng Jiang 
To: Rene Struik , Benoit Claise , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT)" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Concerns on Anima pre-WG status and potential directions to address these (Re: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today)
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 07:03:57 +0000
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Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Recording: https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D39ac2040acd640=
6084512a11c80a0edb=20


ANIMA Call
25 Sep 2014

Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit received our BoF request, it's on the wiki=
 (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki).=20
Are there still blocking factors for a charter?=20
Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG review. The IESG call where the IESG
says the charter is ready for external review (2 weeks) Then externals can=
=20
comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 weeks.=20
We are still on time.=20
Draft -08 of charter has been posted. Only IPv6 management is needs to be a=
dded.=20
Received an extra few paragraphs. see diff between -06 and -08 of the chart=
er.=20

Process: AD not looking for consensus on the textual charter. But there sho=
uld be consensus that people will work towards the charter goals.=20
ADs want to understand open issues. Rene and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit was=
 hoping that Dimitri would be on the call...=20
What are the remaining issues?=20
- Do we need to list starting points?=20

Brian: Discussion should be about the WG documents, not about the charter.=
=20
Sheng, Michael: agree.=20
Laurent: Either cite all references or none. Why limit ourselves here?
Benoit: I like the starting points in the charter. The goals listed are ver=
y generic, could be understood in too many ways. The starting points should=
 give an idea on what we are thinking about. This doesn't mean that the dra=
ft listed is the right one, and maybe "starting point" is not the right ter=
m. AD would be happy to have several competing "starting points".=20
Dimitri worried that people will adopt drafts just because they are listed.=
=20
Brian: Have never seen a WG that just accepted an existing draft. Do not se=
e an issue here.=20
Michael: Should we explain this in the charter?=20
Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, not needed to mention explicitly. We s=
hould not put in the charter normal IETF process.=20
Michael: Worried about negative starting points.=20
Benoit: Autonomics has been around for 10 years. the NMRG work progressed v=
ery slowly. Let's try out some things and see what works. Risk to boil the =
ocean. In favour of getting something small done. I would be happy if every=
 year we'd work on a few new use cases. But concerned that we never got any=
where with this.=20
Sheng: Added the sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everyb=
ody is happy with the charter. Rene and Dimitri seem upset that the charter=
 doesn't contain all they want, but new work can be added. The starting poi=
nt docs are not adopted yet.=20
Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll get extra use cases that will reuse=
 the components mentioned. Haven't found a way to express that all individu=
al drafts are welcome, but we don't want to review all use cases. That's wh=
y we restricted use cases. But everyone should check that HIS use case can =
reuse components. But cannot write in the charter that if one use case brea=
ks some component, we have to start from scratch. Other things should be wo=
rked on. Understand frustration about many use cases not being picked up.=20
Brain: If we go ahead, you should make this point on the list / in the meet=
ing. Rene's comments are very contrstructive.=20
Benoit: We're not looking for consensus on the charter text, but on consens=
us that people will work on it.=20
Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised their hands that they will work in t=
his space.=20
Benoit: But this is on this charter text, not on UCAN.=20
Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the NMRG documents before starting here=
.=20
Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 weeks ago, no response from RG chairs=
. In the meantime we got more comments from Rene.=20
Benoit: We should post the latest version, our responsibility, not RG chair=
s.=20
Sheng: use case draft already has another version, not posted yet. Give us =
one week.=20
Michael: definitions draft should also have another version in 1 week.=20
Benoit: Those 2 docs are building blocks, they shouldn't change massively f=
rom now.=20
Michael: I believe the docs are fundamentally stable, there will always be =
small changes.=20
Brian, Sheng: Agree.=20
Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chairs, to progress the docs. No replies.=
=20
Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. Rene's point still has the point the=
 problem statements is not well described.=20
Michael: AN in general is a huge architecture, and we want to work bottom u=
p. There is inevitably a huge gap, and people will always feel uncomfortabl=
e about this.=20
Benoit: Are there still open blocking factors?=20
Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead.=20
Bing Liu: Should go ahead.=20
(no other opinions expressed)
Benoit: We've been listening to everybody; the charter is not perfect; but =
it is not sure that we can do this in the world of AN. This is why the ADs =
have pointed at starting points. But would be very happy if other people ha=
ve other proposals to sovle the same problems, and have a healthy discussio=
n. Concern about accepting the existing docs (email from Rene today: Afraid=
 of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, existing docs will be blindly accepted=
) - we should not blindly accept those starting points.  But we should be o=
pen and look at every proposal. We might receive blocking comments from IES=
G.=20
Finish the next versions of the NMRG docs asap. Might still change. Will ke=
ep pushing NMRG chairs to progress those drafts.=20
Laurent: The charter states the the first docs will be accepted in Hawaii.=
=20
Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should NOT happen in November. We need to co=
rrect that in the charter.=20
Michael: So lets change the charter, change milestones.=20
Benoit changing the charter on the fly. See new version on the wiki.=20
Some discussion on the precise timing of milestones, not captured in detail=
; bottom line: We take things a bit more slowly to allow all views to be fa=
ctored in.=20
Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for new milestones TODAY and send it to Be=
noit.=20
Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can we see the proposal?=20
Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki.=20
Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss which BoFs should be approved. Benoit w=
ill make the point. Then we'll know whether we'll have a BoF or WG. If ther=
e is a BoF, then we need to understand the expected outcome. Would like to =
hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF isn't there to solve a problem, but to=
 agree that there is a problem to be solved. Maybe not perfectly described.=
 The only positive point in a BoF is if we can describe the problem stateme=
nt better.=20
Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Would be useful to have time for face t=
o face discussions. It's a complex topix. BoF is not the right type of meet=
ing for this discussion.=20
Michael: Let's just meet informally several times in Hawaii.=20
Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG. Any way to work is good. If WG, it =
should be inclusive to everyone.


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:45:31 +0200
From: Benoit Claise 
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To: Rene Struik , "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" ,  Sheng Jiang , "anima@ietf.org" 
References: <54117DD5.3090303@cisco.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF832345311E@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5413136E.1060801@cisco.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323453C1A@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2C687@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF8323454204@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF2CAF5@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234545AE@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF375F4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <84675BAA8C49154AB81E2587BE8BDF83234546DB@FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <54231029.6080103@cisco.com> <54234E66.9040000@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Hi,

> Hi Benoit:
>
> Just a brief note (just in case I misinterpreted you here): I hope I 
> am right in the sense that you are not arguing to adopt a draft, 
> simply because there are currently no competing drafts, right? 
Correct.
> Draft should be judged on their merit and the merits of ideas 
> incorporated in these and not on the basis of "electing a candidate, 
> since there is only one on the list, no matter the 
> profile/characteristics that should exhibited". In my mind, it is 
> perfectly fine to have a vacancy for a while (to continue the 
> candidacy analogy), if one has not found the proper candidate yt or 
> has moving job descriptions.
We share the same thoughts.
During the call today, Laurent realized that there was a mistake in the 
deliverables

    Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts (see "specific goals")
                - Mar IETF 92nd -

This deadline will be pushed.

Regards, Benoit
>
> Best regards, Rene
>
> ==
> If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody 
> else) to write your own draft.
>
> On 9/24/2014 2:40 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Dimitri,
>>
>> Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid any 
>> longer, but anyway...
>>> I have explained technically why you document is not suited as 
>>> starting point and why initiating the work from the wrong starting 
>>> point will lead to more problems than be helpful. 
>> If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody 
>> else) to write your own draft.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>


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Hi,

      

    

    
Hi
      Benoit:
      

      

      Just a brief note (just in case I misinterpreted you here): I hope
      I am right in the sense that you are not arguing to adopt a draft,
      simply because there are currently no competing drafts, right? 

    Correct.

    
Draft
      should be judged on their merit and the merits of ideas
      incorporated in these and not on the basis of "electing a
      candidate, since there is only one on the list, no matter the
      profile/characteristics that should exhibited". In my mind, it is
      perfectly fine to have a vacancy for a while (to continue the
      candidacy analogy), if one has not found the proper candidate yt
      or has moving job descriptions.
      

    

    We share the same thoughts.

    During the call today, Laurent realized that there was a mistake in
    the deliverables

    

      
Nov 2014 - WG formation and adoption of initial drafts (see "specific goals")
           - Mar IETF 92nd - 

    

    This deadline will be pushed.

    

    Regards, Benoit

    

      

      Best regards, Rene
      

      

      ==
      

      If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or anybody
      else) to write your own draft.
      

      

      On 9/24/2014 2:40 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
      

      
Dimitri,
        

        

        Reading an old email thread, so maybe this point is not valid
        any longer, but anyway...
        

        
I have explained technically why you
          document is not suited as starting point and why initiating
          the work from the wrong starting point will lead to more
          problems than be helpful. 

        If you (still) believe it's the case, I encourage you (or
        anybody else) to write your own draft.
        

        

        Regards, Benoit
        

        

        _______________________________________________
        

        Anima mailing list
        

        Anima@ietf.org
        

        https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
        

      

      

      

    

    

  


--------------050006060605020905020706--


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:55:23 +0200
From: Benoit Claise 
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Thanks Michael for your notes.
3 small corrections below.

Regards, Benoit
> Recording: https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=39ac2040acd6406084512a11c80a0edb
>
>
> ANIMA Call
> 25 Sep 2014
>
> Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit received our BoF request, it's on the wiki (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki).
> Are there still blocking factors for a charter?
> Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG review. The IESG call where the IESG
> says the charter is ready for external review (2 weeks) Then externals can
> comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 weeks.
> We are still on time.
> Draft -08 of charter has been posted. Only IPv6 management is needs to be added.
> Received an extra few paragraphs. see diff between -06 and -08 of the charter.
>
> Process: AD not looking for consensus on the textual charter. But there should be consensus that people will work towards the charter goals.
> ADs want to understand open issues. Rene and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit was hoping that Dimitri would be on the call...
> What are the remaining issues?
> - Do we need to list starting points?
>
> Brian: Discussion should be about the WG documents, not about the charter.
> Sheng, Michael: agree.
> Laurent: Either cite all references or none. Why limit ourselves here?
> Benoit: I like the starting points in the charter. The goals listed are very generic, could be understood in too many ways. The starting points should give an idea on what we are thinking about. This doesn't mean that the draft listed is the right one, and maybe "starting point" is not the right term. AD would be happy to have several competing "starting points".
> Dimitri worried that people will adopt drafts just because they are listed.
> Brian: Have never seen a WG that just accepted an existing draft. Do not see an issue here.
> Michael: Should we explain this in the charter?
> Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, not needed to mention explicitly. We should not put in the charter normal IETF process.
ADD: Additionally, I don't think that "Additional work items may only be 
added with approval from the responsible Area Director or by 
re-chartering" is needed. This is normal IETF process.
> Michael: Worried about negative starting points.
> Benoit: Autonomics has been around for 10 years. the NMRG work progressed very slowly. Let's try out some things and see what works. Risk to boil the ocean. In favour of getting something small done. I would be happy if every year we'd work on a few new use cases. But concerned that we never got anywhere with this.
NEW:

But concerned that we never got anywhere if we take too many use cases

> Sheng: Added the sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everybody is happy with the charter.
NEW: Sheng: Added the "Additional work items may only be added with 
approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering" 
sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everybody is happy 
with the charter.
> Rene and Dimitri seem upset that the charter doesn't contain all they want, but new work can be added. The starting point docs are not adopted yet.
> Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll get extra use cases that will reuse the components mentioned. Haven't found a way to express that all individual drafts are welcome, but we don't want to review all use cases. That's why we restricted use cases. But everyone should check that HIS use case can reuse components. But cannot write in the charter that if one use case breaks some component, we have to start from scratch. Other things should be worked on. Understand frustration about many use cases not being picked up.
> Brain: If we go ahead, you should make this point on the list / in the meeting. Rene's comments are very contrstructive.
> Benoit: We're not looking for consensus on the charter text, but on consensus that people will work on it.
> Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised their hands that they will work in this space.
> Benoit: But this is on this charter text, not on UCAN.
> Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the NMRG documents before starting here.
> Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 weeks ago, no response from RG chairs. In the meantime we got more comments from Rene.
> Benoit: We should post the latest version, our responsibility, not RG chairs.
> Sheng: use case draft already has another version, not posted yet. Give us one week.
> Michael: definitions draft should also have another version in 1 week.
> Benoit: Those 2 docs are building blocks, they shouldn't change massively from now.
> Michael: I believe the docs are fundamentally stable, there will always be small changes.
> Brian, Sheng: Agree.
> Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chairs, to progress the docs. No replies.
> Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. Rene's point still has the point the problem statements is not well described.
> Michael: AN in general is a huge architecture, and we want to work bottom up. There is inevitably a huge gap, and people will always feel uncomfortable about this.
> Benoit: Are there still open blocking factors?
> Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead.
> Bing Liu: Should go ahead.
> (no other opinions expressed)
> Benoit: We've been listening to everybody; the charter is not perfect; but it is not sure that we can do this in the world of AN. This is why the ADs have pointed at starting points. But would be very happy if other people have other proposals to sovle the same problems, and have a healthy discussion. Concern about accepting the existing docs (email from Rene today: Afraid of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, existing docs will be blindly accepted) - we should not blindly accept those starting points.  But we should be open and look at every proposal. We might receive blocking comments from IESG.
> Finish the next versions of the NMRG docs asap. Might still change. Will keep pushing NMRG chairs to progress those drafts.
> Laurent: The charter states the the first docs will be accepted in Hawaii.
> Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should NOT happen in November. We need to correct that in the charter.
> Michael: So lets change the charter, change milestones.
> Benoit changing the charter on the fly. See new version on the wiki.
> Some discussion on the precise timing of milestones, not captured in detail; bottom line: We take things a bit more slowly to allow all views to be factored in.
> Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for new milestones TODAY and send it to Benoit.
> Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can we see the proposal?
> Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki.
> Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss which BoFs should be approved. Benoit will make the point. Then we'll know whether we'll have a BoF or WG. If there is a BoF, then we need to understand the expected outcome. Would like to hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF isn't there to solve a problem, but to agree that there is a problem to be solved. Maybe not perfectly described. The only positive point in a BoF is if we can describe the problem statement better.
> Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Would be useful to have time for face to face discussions. It's a complex topix. BoF is not the right type of meeting for this discussion.
> Michael: Let's just meet informally several times in Hawaii.
> Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG. Any way to work is good. If WG, it should be inclusive to everyone.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> .
>


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Concerns on Anima pre-WG status and potential directions to address these (Re: Notes from the ANIMA Call Today)
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Hi,
> Hi Benoit:
>
> Thanks for your note. I hope my analysis is useful in improving the 
> quality of background material and "solution-oriented documents" alike.
It certainly is, and was stressed during our call today. Thanks.
>
> Please note that my analysis does not only deal with "how problems are 
> solved"; it also comments on the presumed "foundations" (the 
> definition draft and gap analysis) for this effort and "which problems 
> are to be solved". My overall conclusion, based on my own detailed 
> review, unfortunately is that there is that the work items do not have 
> a solid footing in the gap analysis. Thereby, it is not entirely clear 
> that the three solution drafts (which are all individual documents 
> that happen to be floating around on the nmrg server) are necessarily 
> the right items to focus on.
>
> Hence, my reservations with the charter.
>
> This is the scenario I fear will transpire:
> - one will approve draft, since "the show must go on"
> - there will be three drafts for which a WG adoption email will be 
> issued prior to the November meeting
> - chairs/some people will argue it should be adopted simply because it 
> is there (and since there are no competing drafts)
This should NOT happen.
See the minutes from our call today, posted by Michael.

Regards, Benoit
>
> This will leave no room discussing the merits of the problems these 
> drafts are addressing (which, btw, are kind of defined in a circular 
> fashion, by simply being defined by the solution drafts that happen to 
> be on the nmrg list.
>
> Shouldn't one aim higher and avoid this whole scenario transpiring?
>
> I don't want to be blamed to put a spoke in the wheel, but if I would 
> be managing this as a project in a company and would be sitting on 
> budget, I would send the teams back to redo their homework, failure of 
> completion resulting in zero budget being awarded at this stage.
>
> Best regards, Rene
>
> [excerpt email Rene Struik as of Thu Sep 18, 2014]
> I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and 
> improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the draft 
> charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to understand (also 
> for me after spending considerable time on this). I think the solution 
> drafts leave so many questions and lack so much analysis, that it is 
> highly premature to consider these as suitable basis for working group 
> deliberations.
>
> On 9/24/2014 2:29 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Thanks René for your analysis.
>> Note that it's the role of a WG to discuss how to solve the problems 
>> (the technical aspects).
>> At charter time, we have to agree that there are problems to be solved.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>> Dear colleagues:
>>>
>>> As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the draft 
>>> charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:
>>> review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03, see 
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html
>>> review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see 
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html
>>> review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see 
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html
>>> review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see 
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html
>>> review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see 
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html
>>> review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00 (still 
>>> pending)
>>>
>>> From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there are lots 
>>> of questions on the design goals, gaps and design philosophy, and 
>>> three solution drafts floating around for now. I also had trouble 
>>> finding a succinct analysis of what is required and what is missing 
>>> in prior RFC art.
>>>
>>> I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and 
>>> improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the 
>>> draft charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to understand 
>>> (also for me after spending considerable time on this). I think the 
>>> solution drafts leave so many questions and lack so much analysis, 
>>> that it is highly premature to consider these as suitable basis for 
>>> working group deliberations.
>>>
>>> I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some of the 
>>> proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as co-author) in 
>>> all the drafts I critically examined. So, one can choose to move 
>>> ahead on procedural grounds, no matter technical reservations 
>>> regarding the foundations of this effort. We are all technical 
>>> people, though, and I hope you would all agree that we ned to go 
>>> back to the drawing board and improve the currently shaky 
>>> foundations first.
>>>
>>> Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to include 
>>> solution drafts in a charter (no matter whether an AD might have 
>>> suggested so), esp. if one has an extremely hard time to trace any 
>>> technical discussion on mailing lists. My technical reviews were 
>>> aimed at filling this void.
>>>
>>> Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this topic 
>>> area is important enough to do right and not start on the wrong footing.
>>>
>>> Best regards, Rene
>>>
>>> On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:
>>>> Dear colleagues:
>>>>
>>>> I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me 
>>>> circulating comments on the all the drafts mentioned in the 
>>>> charter, but the AD artillery at this stage kind of forces me to 
>>>> weigh-in.
>>>>
>>>> First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the mock version 
>>>> 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh though}; nor did I 
>>>> participate in the last conference call (in the middle of my sleep 
>>>> cycle).
>>>>
>>>> Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:
>>>> - main concern with draft charter discussions is that, while the 
>>>> BOF had ~200 people in attendance, discussions on the call/mailing 
>>>> list seem to draw in only a handful of people. This does not bode 
>>>> well for support for the effort. {It could be that people are 
>>>> intimidated by presumably having to read the drafts mentioned in 
>>>> the charter first (I was intimidated by this myself, but now did 
>>>> all this, and also read the 40 page survey on autonomic 
>>>> networking).} This makes me wonder why not more people are 
>>>> interested. [It has some advantages as well, since sometimes a 
>>>> small group works better.]
>>>> - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of the draft 
>>>> charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly taken as 
>>>> deliverable direction. In my mind, it would be better to describe 
>>>> the problem areas the soon to be WG is supposed to work on (hence, 
>>>> my question to you on ACP one para description).
>>>> - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in "camps" that 
>>>> I would like to understand better. Wouldn't it be better to try and 
>>>> bridge this before sending stuff the direction of an AD (esp. when 
>>>> so few people are involved)?
>>>>
>>>> I would think trying to understand what drives the different 
>>>> "camps" has priority. Perhaps, some massaging cycles help here?
>>>>
>>>> Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of them 
>>>> happened in the August time window (when also Benoit Claise was on 
>>>> vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the version number does not 
>>>> indicate concensus or stability.
>>>>
>>>> Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area:
>>>> - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be tackled first 
>>>> in one para, no other context required, language. Idea here is to 
>>>> make the charter readable for non-expert readers
>>>> - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in various 
>>>> draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g., the definition 
>>>> draft and some fundamental ones on each of the three solution drafts).
>>>>
>>>> The two items above I had originally plan to complete last weekend; 
>>>> I hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next week.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a bigger 
>>>> chance to be addressed by a) having a clear description of what the 
>>>> group wants to accomplish; (b) having some actual technical 
>>>> discussion on the solution drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts, 
>>>> which - so far - have been hard to trace.
>>>>
>>>> Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for delays in 
>>>> circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a salaried employee ... 
>>>> and volunteer in this efforts, because think it is important and 
>>>> useful, if done right).
>>>>
>>>> Best regards, Rene
>>>>
>>>> On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>>> Dimitri,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will do 
>>>>>> this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial focus 
>>>>>> is this"
>>>>>>
>>>>> I believe it's covered by the charter.
>>>>> The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
>>>>> more modest
>>>>>
>>>>>> can you explain me how to deal with the following situation. I am 
>>>>>> interested in the following part
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /[specific goals]/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /o Definition of a discovery and negotiation protocol for 
>>>>>> autonomic functions/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have tried to explain during the call that underneath 
>>>>>> "negotiation" sits theproblem by which a collection of 
>>>>>> interacting/agents/ aim at reaching agreement in order to realize 
>>>>>> an "intent" is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address 
>>>>>> management being outside my scope/interest, how practically the 
>>>>>> charter does allow me to work in this item when it states:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /The working group will initially consider a simple example as a 
>>>>>> test case for further work. /
>>>>>>
>>>>> That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See 
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> //
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /o Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix management within a 
>>>>>> network/
>>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that this bullet is not described enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> //
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is however a broader technical point of concern, the 
>>>>>> charter aims defining such component but for instance behind the 
>>>>>> term negotiation we understand different things Section 2.3 
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 
>>>>>> is about base information exchange (more precisely a base 
>>>>>> description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001] describes as the 
>>>>>> negotiation object. Thus missing i) the actual "*_negotiation 
>>>>>> protocols_* are the set of rules that govern the interaction. 
>>>>>> This covers, the permissible types of participants (e.g., the 
>>>>>> negotiators and relevant third parties), the negotiation states 
>>>>>> (e.g., accepting bids, negotiation closed), the events that cause 
>>>>>> state transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid accepted), and the 
>>>>>> valid actions of the participants in particular states (e.g., 
>>>>>> which can be sent by whom, to whom and at when)." and ii) the 
>>>>>> *_agents' reasoning models_* which provide "the decision making 
>>>>>> apparatus by which participants attempt to achieve their 
>>>>>> objectives. The sophistication of the model is determined by the 
>>>>>> protocol used, the nature of the negotiation object, and the 
>>>>>> range of operations that can be performed on it"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Negotiation in the present context following [Jen1998] can indeed 
>>>>>> be viewed as a "distributed search through a space of potential 
>>>>>> agreements about some joint problem [...] To improve the 
>>>>>> efficiency of the negotiation process, the recipient needs to be 
>>>>>> able to provide more useful feedback on the proposals it receives 
>>>>>> than just whether or not it agrees to them. This feedback can 
>>>>>> take the form of a critique (comments on which parts of the 
>>>>>> proposal the agent likes or dislikes) or a counter-proposal (an 
>>>>>> alternative proposal generated in response to a proposal). From 
>>>>>> such feedback, the proposer should be able to generate a proposal 
>>>>>> which is more likely to lead to an agreement (if it chooses to do 
>>>>>> so).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Jen1998] N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra. On 
>>>>>> argumentation-based negotiation, /Proceedings of the 
>>>>>> International Workshop on Multi-Agent Systems/, pages 1.7, 
>>>>>> Boston, USA, 1998.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Jen2001] N.R.Jennings 
>>>>>>  et 
>>>>>> al., Automated Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges; 
>>>>>> Group Decision and Negotiation, March 2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, 
>>>>>> pp 199-215
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please also take a look at the following paper *on Negotiation in 
>>>>>> Multi-Agent Systems* from Martin Beer, Mark D'inverno, Michael 
>>>>>> Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. 
>>>>>> Negotiation in multi-agent systems./Knowl. Eng. Rev./14, 3 
>>>>>> (September 1999), pp.285-289.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -dimitri.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:*Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
>>>>>> *Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06 PM
>>>>>> *To:* CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laurent,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the corrections. It's difficult to participate in the 
>>>>>> discussion AND try to catch everything correctly, so I count on 
>>>>>> everybody to provide such corrections if needed. BTW, I don't 
>>>>>> think we need to re-do those notes, since the notes AND your (and 
>>>>>> Dimitri's) comments are in the same mail thread in the archive. 
>>>>>> Do you agree?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I think a lot of these discussions will be easier and 
>>>>>> clearer when we're actually arguing about a protocol or method.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the charter has been sometimes misunderstood as "we will 
>>>>>> do this and nothing else", whereas the intent is "our initial 
>>>>>> focus is this". (And we say this explicitly)  In my view all of 
>>>>>> the points you raise MUST be raised, but I think we'll raise them 
>>>>>> when we discuss the solutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:*Laurent Ciavaglia 
>>>>>> [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>>> *Sent:* 12 September 2014 14:53
>>>>>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call Today
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and driving this call ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two comments of the call)
>>>>>> 1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>>>>     --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast communication is not 
>>>>>> suited to coordinate multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve 
>>>>>> conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other means should be 
>>>>>> considered. this is what we need to define (i.e. the negotiation 
>>>>>> functionality boundaries) before specifying the protocol(s).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>>>>     --> as written in charter -10, the conventional self-chop 
>>>>>> features are in: configuration, protection, healing and 
>>>>>> optimization. these should be the minimal basis for the group scope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Notes from the ANIMA Call
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Attendees
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Notes
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     List of items where we have not consensus:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     1) Methodology of this working group
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     2) Selection of use cases
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     3) Common infrastructure components
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Yes. (no objection)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Brian: Completely agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng: This will take too long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dan: Need an intermediate state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Laurent: The self-* features are in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Anima mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Anima@ietf.org  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Advanced Internet Research
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>>>>>>
>>>>>> phone: +33 160 402 636
>>>>>>
>>>>>> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> linkedin: laurentciavaglia 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
>>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
>>> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>
>
> -- 
> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com  | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>
>
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Hi,

    

    

      
      
Hi Benoit:

        

        Thanks for your note. I hope my analysis is useful in improving
        the quality of background material and "solution-oriented
        documents" alike. 

      

    

    It certainly is, and was stressed during our call today. Thanks.

    

      
 

        Please note that my analysis does not only deal with "how
        problems are solved"; it also comments on the presumed
        "foundations" (the definition draft and gap analysis) for this
        effort and "which problems are to be solved". My overall
        conclusion, based on my own detailed review, unfortunately is
        that there is that the work items do not have a solid footing in
        the gap analysis. Thereby, it is not entirely clear that the
        three solution drafts (which are all individual documents that
        happen to be floating around on the nmrg server) are necessarily
        the right items to focus on. 

        

        Hence, my reservations with the charter. 

        

        This is the scenario I fear will transpire:

        - one will approve draft, since "the show must go on"

        - there will be three drafts for which a WG adoption email will
        be issued prior to the November meeting

        - chairs/some people will argue it should be adopted simply
        because it is there (and since there are no competing drafts)

      

    

    This should NOT happen. 

    See the minutes from our call today, posted by Michael.

    

    Regards, Benoit

    

      
 

        This will leave no room discussing the merits of the problems
        these drafts are addressing (which, btw, are kind of defined in
        a circular fashion, by simply being defined by the solution
        drafts that happen to be on the nmrg list. 

        

        Shouldn't one aim higher and avoid this whole scenario
        transpiring? 

        

        I don't want to be blamed to put a spoke in the wheel, but if I
        would be managing this as a project in a company and would be
        sitting on budget, I would send the teams back to redo their
        homework, failure of completion resulting in zero budget being
        awarded at this stage.

        

        Best regards, Rene

        

        [excerpt email Rene Struik as of Thu Sep 18, 2014]

        I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold and
        improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that underpin the
        draft charter, since those underpinnings are very hard to
        understand (also for me after spending considerable time on
        this). I think the solution drafts leave so many questions and
        lack so much analysis, that it is highly premature to consider
        these as suitable basis for working group deliberations.

         

        On 9/24/2014 2:29 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:

      

      

        
Thanks René for your analysis.

          Note that it's the role of a WG to discuss how to solve the
          problems (the technical aspects).

          At charter time, we have to agree that there are problems to
          be solved.

          

          Regards, Benoit

        

        

          
Dear colleagues:

            

            As you saw, I did review six documents all mentioned in the
            draft charter and posted thorough reviews on five of these:

            review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03,
            see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00297.html

            review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00298.html

            review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00306.html

            review of draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00309.html

            review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00, see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00317.html

            review of draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00
            (still pending)

            

            From these detailed reviews, it should be clear that there
            are lots of questions on the design goals, gaps and design
            philosophy, and three solution drafts floating around for
            now. I also had trouble finding a succinct analysis of what
            is required and what is missing in prior RFC art.

            

            I would strongly suggest putting this whole effort on hold
            and improving the supposedly "baseline documents" that
            underpin the draft charter, since those underpinnings are
            very hard to understand (also for me after spending
            considerable time on this). I think the solution drafts
            leave so many questions and lack so much analysis, that it
            is highly premature to consider these as suitable basis for
            working group deliberations.

            

            I would like to see this group succeed. I do know that some
            of the proponents of the draft charter also have a stake (as
            co-author) in all the drafts I critically examined. So, one
            can choose to move ahead on procedural grounds, no matter
            technical reservations regarding the foundations of this
            effort. We are all technical people, though, and I hope you
            would all agree that we ned to go back to the drawing board
            and improve the currently shaky foundations first.

            

            Personally, I disagree with the assessment one has to
            include solution drafts in a charter (no matter whether an
            AD might have suggested so), esp. if one has an extremely
            hard time to trace any technical discussion on mailing
            lists. My technical reviews were aimed at filling this void.

            

            Let us not bury ourselves in procedural arm-wrestling; this
            topic area is important enough to do right and not start on
            the wrong footing.

            

            Best regards, Rene

            

            On 9/12/2014 12:12 PM, Rene Struik wrote:

          

          

            
Dear colleagues:

              

              I did not want to comment on the mailing list prior to me
              circulating comments on the all the drafts mentioned in
              the charter, but the AD artillery at this stage kind of
              forces me to weigh-in.

              

              First of all, I have not read draft charter 09 (or the
              mock version 10) yet {these are only 1 1/2 day fresh
              though}; nor did I participate in the last conference call
              (in the middle of my sleep cycle). 

              

              Here is my quick feedback on charter status/controversy:

              - main concern with draft charter discussions is that,
              while the BOF had ~200 people in attendance, discussions
              on the call/mailing list seem to draw in only a handful of
              people. This does not bode well for support for the
              effort. {It could be that people are intimidated by
              presumably having to read the drafts mentioned in the
              charter first (I was intimidated by this myself, but now
              did all this, and also read the 40 page survey on
              autonomic networking).} This makes me wonder why not more
              people are interested. [It has some advantages as well,
              since sometimes a small group works better.] 

              - second concern is that, at least with prior versions of
              the draft charter, specific draft solutions were seemingly
              taken as deliverable direction. In my mind, it would be
              better to describe the problem areas the soon to be WG is
              supposed to work on (hence, my question to you on ACP one
              para description). 

              - third concern is that there seems to be a divide in
              "camps" that I would like to understand better. Wouldn't
              it be better to try and bridge this before sending stuff
              the direction of an AD (esp. when so few people are
              involved)? 

              

              I would think trying to understand what drives the
              different "camps" has priority. Perhaps, some massaging
              cycles help here?

              

              Having 10 draft charter drafts is okay, esp. since most of
              them happened in the August time window (when also Benoit
              Claise was on vacation, so it seems...). By itself, the
              version number does not indicate concensus or stability.

              

              Here is my own action plan/to-dos in this area: 

              - Describe the three areas that are supposedly to be
              tackled first in one para, no other context required,
              language. Idea here is to make the charter readable for
              non-expert readers 

              - Circulate my comments on the various drafts mentioned in
              various draft charters (I have lots of comments on, e.g.,
              the definition draft and some fundamental ones on each of
              the three solution drafts). 

              

              The two items above I had originally plan to complete last
              weekend; I hope to be able to do this by Mon-Tue next
              week. 

              

              Personally, I think the draft charter controversies have a
              bigger chance to be addressed by a) having a clear
              description of what the group wants to accomplish; (b)
              having some actual technical discussion on the solution
              drafts, definition/gap analysis drafts, which - so far -
              have been hard to trace.

              

              Hence, my action plan above. Once again, apologies for
              delays in circulating "deeper" inputs here (I am not a
              salaried employee ... and volunteer in this efforts,
              because think it is important and useful, if done right).

              

              Best regards, Rene 

              

              On 9/12/2014 11:57 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:

            

            

              
Dimitri,

              

              

                
                
                

                  
Michael,


                        

                  
If the charter has
                      been sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this
                      and nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our
                      initial focus is this”  

                    

                

              

              I believe it's covered by the charter.

              
The scope of this working group's effort for the initial stage is much
more modest

              

              

                

                  
can you explain me how to deal with
                      the following situation. I am
                      interested in the following part

                  
[specific




                        goals]

                  
o
                        Definition of a discovery and negotiation
                        protocol for autonomic functions

                  
I
                      have tried to explain during the call that
                      underneath “negotiation” sits the problem by which a
                        collection of interacting agents aim





                        at reaching agreement in order to realize an
                        “intent” is a key aspect of the work. Renumbering/address





                      management being outside my scope/interest, how
                      practically the charter does allow me to work in
                      this item when it states:

                  
The

                        working group will initially consider a simple
                        example as a test case for further work. 

                

              

              That text improved in the just-posted draft version. See https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt

              

                

                  

                  
o
                        Definition of solution for IPv6 prefix
                        management within a network

                

              

              I agree that this bullet is not described enough.

              

              Regards, Benoit

              

                

                  

                  
There

                      is however a broader technical point of concern,
                      the charter aims defining such component but for
                      instance behind the term negotiation we understand
                      different things Section 2.3 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 is
                      about base information exchange (more precisely a
                      base description of what [Jen1998] [Jen2001]
                      describes as the negotiation object. Thus missing
                      i) the actual “negotiation protocols
                      are the set of rules that govern the interaction.
                      This covers, the permissible types of participants
                      (e.g., the negotiators and relevant third
                      parties), the negotiation states (e.g., accepting
                      bids, negotiation closed), the events that cause
                      state transitions (e.g., no more bidders, bid
                      accepted), and the valid actions of the
                      participants in particular states (e.g., which can
                      be sent by whom, to whom and at when).” and ii)
                      the agents’ reasoning models which
                      provide “the decision making apparatus by which
                      participants attempt to achieve their objectives.
                      The sophistication of the model is determined by
                      the protocol used, the nature of the negotiation
                      object, and the range of operations that can be
                      performed on it”

                  
Negotiation




                      in the present context following [Jen1998] can
                      indeed be viewed as a “distributed search through
                      a space of potential agreements about some joint
                      problem […] To improve the efficiency of the
                      negotiation process, the recipient needs to be
                      able to provide more useful feedback on the
                      proposals it receives than just whether or not it
                      agrees to them. This feedback can take the form of
                      a critique (comments on which parts of the
                      proposal the agent likes or dislikes) or a
                      counter-proposal (an alternative proposal
                      generated in response to a proposal). From such
                      feedback, the proposer should be able to generate
                      a proposal which is more likely to lead to an
                      agreement (if it chooses to do so).

                  
 

                  
[Jen1998]



                      N.R.Jennings, S.Parsons, P.Noriega, and C.Sierra.
                      On argumentation-based negotiation, Proceedings
                        of the International Workshop on Multi-Agent
                        Systems, pages 1.7, Boston, USA, 1998.

                  
 

                  
[Jen2001]



                    N.R.Jennings
                      et al., Automated

                        Negotiation: Prospects, Methods and Challenges;
                      Group Decision and Negotiation, March
                        2001, Volume 10, Issue 2, pp
                        199-215

                  
Please

                      also take a look at the following paper on
                        Negotiation in Multi-Agent Systems from Martin Beer,
                      Mark D'inverno, Michael Luck, Nick Jennings, Chris
                      Preist, and Michael Schroeder. 1999. Negotiation
                      in multi-agent systems. Knowl. Eng. Rev. 14, 3
                      (September 1999), pp.285-289. 

                  
 

                  
Thanks,

                  
-dimitri.

                  
 

                  

                    

                      

                        

                          From:
                            Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org]
                            On Behalf Of Michael Behringer
                            (mbehring)

                            Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:06
                            PM

                            To: CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT (LAURENT); anima@ietf.org

                            Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the
                            ANIMA Call Today

                      

                    

                    
 

                    
Laurent, 

                    
Thanks for the corrections. It’s
                        difficult to participate in the discussion AND
                        try to catch everything correctly, so I count on
                        everybody to provide such corrections if needed.
                        BTW, I don’t think we need to re-do those notes,
                        since the notes AND your (and Dimitri’s)
                        comments are in the same mail thread in the
                        archive. Do you agree? 

                    
Personally, I think a lot of these
                        discussions will be easier and clearer when
                        we’re actually arguing about a protocol or
                        method. 

                    
I think the charter has been
                        sometimes misunderstood as “we will do this and
                        nothing else”, whereas the intent is “our
                        initial focus is this”. (And we say this
                        explicitly)  In my view all of the points you
                        raise MUST be raised, but I think we’ll raise
                        them when we discuss the solutions. 

                    
Michael

                    
 

                    

                      

                        

                          

                            From:
                              Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
                              

                              Sent: 12 September 2014 14:53

                              To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org

                              Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the
                              ANIMA Call Today

                        

                      

                      
 

                      
Dear
                          Michael,

                          

                          Thanks for taking and sharing the minutes, and
                          driving this call ;)

                          

                          Two corrections in the minutes: (my last two
                          comments of the call)

                          1) Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on
                          a higher level. 

                              --> Laurent: in some cases, unicast
                          communication is not suited to coordinate
                          multiple autonomic functions (how to resolve
                          conflicts, avoid oscillations, etc.). other
                          means should be considered. this is what we
                          need to define (i.e. the negotiation
                          functionality boundaries) before specifying
                          the protocol(s).

                           

                          2) Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                              --> as written in charter -10, the
                          conventional self-chop features are in:
                          configuration, protection, healing and
                          optimization. these should be the minimal
                          basis for the group scope.

                          

                          Thanks, best regards, Laurent.

                      

                        
On 11/09/2014 15:31, Michael
                            Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

                      

                      

                        
Below are the notes I took, and the recording is here: 

                        
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=b7a36fd25d7946d6a843aff0927d7a93 

                        
 

                        
Michael

                        
 

                        
--

                        
 

                        
 

                        
 

                        
Notes from the ANIMA Call

                        
11 Sep 2014, 6am GMT

                        
 

                        
Attendees

                        
Bing Liu, Brian Carpenter, Dan Romascanu, Dimitri P., Laurent Ciavaglia, Sheng Jiang, Yu Fu, Michael Behringer (notes)

                        
 

                        
Notes

                        
Sheng prepared v9 of the charter. Presented his current view on things. 

                        
 

                        
List of items where we have not consensus:

                        
1) Methodology of this working group

                        
Two different approaches at the moment, bottom up and top down. 

                        
 

                        
2) Selection of use cases

                        
At which step do we plan the working group? What should be the first use cases? 

                        
 

                        
3) Common infrastructure components

                        
Sheng: We should first work on those components, BEFORE working on use cases. 

                        
 

                        
Michael: Do we agree on infrastructure versus autonomic service agents? 

                        
Yes. (no objection) 

                        
 

                        
Dimitri: We have service agents that exchange information. Use case driven approach. Sheng is a communication driven approach. 

                        
Brian: Misunderstanding. Approach in proposed charter, we need to first understand communication layer. 

                        
Dimitri: Communication is part of current charter, there are different modes. Negotiation for example. 

                        
Laurent: The current negotiation proposal is just one proposal. But there are many potential solutions. 

                        
Michael: The charter doesn't say the current draft is the chosen one. 

                        
Laurent: Yes, but the boundary conditions are not clear. It is not clear which the requirements are for such a protocol. 

                        
Sheng: Yes, but this should be the job of the working group, to define precise requirements, and work out a proposed protocol. 

                        
Dimitri: Differnt means to translate negotiation requirements to protocol. If we don't have a broad overview we may go down the wrong track. Might end up in an open protocol. 

                        
Brian: Completely agree. 

                        
Michael: Problem statement seems to be: Do we describe the requirements BEFORE the charter or once we are chartered? 

                        
Laurent: We need to be explicit that the charter is about functionalities, and it's the job of the working group to translate this into protocols. 

                        
Sheng: This will take too long. 

                        
Michael: Can we start with the simple communication methods, and expand as needed? 

                        
Dimitri: master-slave, consensus based, gossip, and other mechanisms. That needs to be settled before we do the work. The charter must allow this. 

                        
Dan: Can include in charter about infrastructure functional requirements. There should be a general requirements doc. 

                        
Michael: ADs didn't want to start with a lengthy requirements process. 

                        
Dan: Need an intermediate state. 

                        
Dimitri: Charter needs to include "validate use cases against architecture". NMRG docs are a good starting point. Validation is key. Should have had an autonomic model document. Like for intserv/diffserv. 

                        
Michael: Can we not start with a simple unicast negotiation method? 

                        
Laurent: Need to worry about oscillation on a higher level. 

                        
Dimitri: Need to work on use cases to derive requirements. Determine the use cases you need to determine this. Need a broad set of use cases to define boundaries (not requirements). We should select use cases by area, for example bootstrap. We need three areas. 1) Bootstrapping (self-configuration), 2) self-protection and 3) open, on self-healing for example. 

                        
Sheng: So far no reporting area. There are many areas to work on. We don't know them yet. 

                        
Dimitri: We DO know them. Self-* features. 

                        
Laurent: The self-* features are in. 

                        
Michael: Need to document the different viewpoints. 

                        
 

                        
 

                        
 

                        
_______________________________________________

                        
Anima mailing list

                        
Anima@ietf.org

                        
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

                        
 

                      

                      
 

                      

                        

                          -- 

                        

                          Bien cordialement, Best
                            regards,

                        

                           

                        

                          Laurent Ciavaglia

                        

                          Advanced Internet Research

                        

                          Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

                        

                           

                        

                          phone: +33 160 402 636 

                        

                          email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

                        

                          linkedin: laurentciavaglia

                        

                          address: Route de Villejust |
                            91620 Nozay | France

                      

                    

                  

                

                

                

                

                
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_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


            

            

            

            
-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

          

          

          

          
-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

          

          

          

          
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cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

      

      

      

      
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:24:49 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia 
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Thanks for taking care and posting the minutes.

Please find two small changes, in line.

Best regards, Laurent.


On 25/09/2014 09:03, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> Recording: https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=39ac2040acd6406084512a11c80a0edb
>
>
> ANIMA Call
> 25 Sep 2014
>
> Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit received our BoF request, it's on the wiki (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki).
> Are there still blocking factors for a charter?
> Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG review. The IESG call where the IESG
> says the charter is ready for external review (2 weeks) Then externals can
> comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 weeks.
> We are still on time.
> Draft -08 of charter has been posted. Only IPv6 management is needs to be added.
> Received an extra few paragraphs. see diff between -06 and -08 of the charter.
>
> Process: AD not looking for consensus on the textual charter. But there should be consensus that people will work towards the charter goals.
> ADs want to understand open issues. Rene and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit was hoping that Dimitri would be on the call...
> What are the remaining issues?
> - Do we need to list starting points?
>
> Brian: Discussion should be about the WG documents, not about the charter.
> Sheng, Michael: agree.
> Laurent: Either cite all references or none. Why limit ourselves here?
> Benoit: I like the starting points in the charter. The goals listed are very generic, could be understood in too many ways. The starting points should give an idea on what we are thinking about. This doesn't mean that the draft listed is the right one, and maybe "starting point" is not the right term. AD would be happy to have several competing "starting points".
> Dimitri worried that people will adopt drafts just because they are listed.

I think Benoit was talking about Rene, not Dimitri (cf latest emails 
sent on the list by Rene).

> Brian: Have never seen a WG that just accepted an existing draft. Do not see an issue here.
> Michael: Should we explain this in the charter?
> Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, not needed to mention explicitly. We should not put in the charter normal IETF process.
> Michael: Worried about negative starting points.
> Benoit: Autonomics has been around for 10 years. the NMRG work progressed very slowly. Let's try out some things and see what works. Risk to boil the ocean. In favour of getting something small done. I would be happy if every year we'd work on a few new use cases. But concerned that we never got anywhere with this.
> Sheng: Added the sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everybody is happy with the charter. Rene and Dimitri seem upset that the charter doesn't contain all they want, but new work can be added. The starting point docs are not adopted yet.
> Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll get extra use cases that will reuse the components mentioned. Haven't found a way to express that all individual drafts are welcome, but we don't want to review all use cases. That's why we restricted use cases. But everyone should check that HIS use case can reuse components. But cannot write in the charter that if one use case breaks some component, we have to start from scratch. Other things should be worked on. Understand frustration about many use cases not being picked up.
> Brain: If we go ahead, you should make this point on the list / in the meeting. Rene's comments are very contrstructive.
> Benoit: We're not looking for consensus on the charter text, but on consensus that people will work on it.
> Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised their hands that they will work in this space.
> Benoit: But this is on this charter text, not on UCAN.
> Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the NMRG documents before starting here.
> Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 weeks ago, no response from RG chairs. In the meantime we got more comments from Rene.
> Benoit: We should post the latest version, our responsibility, not RG chairs.
> Sheng: use case draft already has another version, not posted yet. Give us one week.
> Michael: definitions draft should also have another version in 1 week.
> Benoit: Those 2 docs are building blocks, they shouldn't change massively from now.
> Michael: I believe the docs are fundamentally stable, there will always be small changes.
> Brian, Sheng: Agree.
> Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chairs, to progress the docs. No replies.
> Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. Rene's point still has the point the problem statements is not well described.
> Michael: AN in general is a huge architecture, and we want to work bottom up. There is inevitably a huge gap, and people will always feel uncomfortable about this.
> Benoit: Are there still open blocking factors?
> Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead.
> Bing Liu: Should go ahead.
> (no other opinions expressed)
> Benoit: We've been listening to everybody; the charter is not perfect; but it is not sure that we can do this in the world of AN. This is why the ADs have pointed at starting points. But would be very happy if other people have other proposals to sovle the same problems, and have a healthy discussion. Concern about accepting the existing docs (email from Rene today: Afraid of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, existing docs will be blindly accepted) - we should not blindly accept those starting points.  But we should be open and look at every proposal. We might receive blocking comments from IESG.
> Finish the next versions of the NMRG docs asap. Might still change. Will keep pushing NMRG chairs to progress those drafts.
> Laurent: The charter states the the first docs will be accepted in Hawaii.
> Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should NOT happen in November. We need to correct that in the charter.
> Michael: So lets change the charter, change milestones.
> Benoit changing the charter on the fly. See new version on the wiki.
> Some discussion on the precise timing of milestones, not captured in detail; bottom line: We take things a bit more slowly to allow all views to be factored in.
> Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for new milestones TODAY and send it to Benoit.
> Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can we see the proposal?
> Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki.
> Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss which BoFs should be approved. Benoit will make the point. Then we'll know whether we'll have a BoF or WG. If there is a BoF, then we need to understand the expected outcome. Would like to hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF isn't there to solve a problem, but to agree that there is a problem to be solved. Maybe not perfectly described. The only positive point in a BoF is if we can describe the problem statement better.
> Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Would be useful to have time for face to face discussions. It's a complex topix. BoF is not the right type of meeting for this discussion.

WG and BoF might or not be the right types of meeting for this 
discussion, yet the need is here. How can we organize ourselves to have 
such discussions?

> Michael: Let's just meet informally several times in Hawaii.
> Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG. Any way to work is good. If WG, it should be inclusive to everyone.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 


linkedin: laurentciavaglia 

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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    Thanks for taking care and posting the
      minutes.

      

      Please find two small changes, in line.

      

      Best regards, Laurent.

      

      

    
    
On 25/09/2014 09:03, Michael Behringer
      (mbehring) wrote:

    

    

      
Recording: https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=39ac2040acd6406084512a11c80a0edb 


ANIMA Call
25 Sep 2014

Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit received our BoF request, it's on the wiki (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki). 
Are there still blocking factors for a charter? 
Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG review. The IESG call where the IESG
says the charter is ready for external review (2 weeks) Then externals can 
comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 weeks. 
We are still on time. 
Draft -08 of charter has been posted. Only IPv6 management is needs to be added. 
Received an extra few paragraphs. see diff between -06 and -08 of the charter. 

Process: AD not looking for consensus on the textual charter. But there should be consensus that people will work towards the charter goals. 
ADs want to understand open issues. Rene and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit was hoping that Dimitri would be on the call... 
What are the remaining issues? 
- Do we need to list starting points? 

Brian: Discussion should be about the WG documents, not about the charter. 
Sheng, Michael: agree. 
Laurent: Either cite all references or none. Why limit ourselves here?
Benoit: I like the starting points in the charter. The goals listed are very generic, could be understood in too many ways. The starting points should give an idea on what we are thinking about. This doesn't mean that the draft listed is the right one, and maybe "starting point" is not the right term. AD would be happy to have several competing "starting points". 
Dimitri worried that people will adopt drafts just because they are listed. 

    

    

    I think Benoit was talking about Rene, not Dimitri (cf latest emails
    sent on the list by Rene).

    

    

      
Brian: Have never seen a WG that just accepted an existing draft. Do not see an issue here. 
Michael: Should we explain this in the charter? 
Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, not needed to mention explicitly. We should not put in the charter normal IETF process. 
Michael: Worried about negative starting points. 
Benoit: Autonomics has been around for 10 years. the NMRG work progressed very slowly. Let's try out some things and see what works. Risk to boil the ocean. In favour of getting something small done. I would be happy if every year we'd work on a few new use cases. But concerned that we never got anywhere with this. 
Sheng: Added the sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everybody is happy with the charter. Rene and Dimitri seem upset that the charter doesn't contain all they want, but new work can be added. The starting point docs are not adopted yet. 
Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll get extra use cases that will reuse the components mentioned. Haven't found a way to express that all individual drafts are welcome, but we don't want to review all use cases. That's why we restricted use cases. But everyone should check that HIS use case can reuse components. But cannot write in the charter that if one use case breaks some component, we have to start from scratch. Other things should be worked on. Understand frustration about many use cases not being picked up. 
Brain: If we go ahead, you should make this point on the list / in the meeting. Rene's comments are very contrstructive. 
Benoit: We're not looking for consensus on the charter text, but on consensus that people will work on it. 
Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised their hands that they will work in this space. 
Benoit: But this is on this charter text, not on UCAN. 
Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the NMRG documents before starting here. 
Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 weeks ago, no response from RG chairs. In the meantime we got more comments from Rene. 
Benoit: We should post the latest version, our responsibility, not RG chairs. 
Sheng: use case draft already has another version, not posted yet. Give us one week. 
Michael: definitions draft should also have another version in 1 week. 
Benoit: Those 2 docs are building blocks, they shouldn't change massively from now. 
Michael: I believe the docs are fundamentally stable, there will always be small changes. 
Brian, Sheng: Agree. 
Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chairs, to progress the docs. No replies. 
Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. Rene's point still has the point the problem statements is not well described. 
Michael: AN in general is a huge architecture, and we want to work bottom up. There is inevitably a huge gap, and people will always feel uncomfortable about this. 
Benoit: Are there still open blocking factors? 
Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead. 
Bing Liu: Should go ahead. 
(no other opinions expressed)
Benoit: We've been listening to everybody; the charter is not perfect; but it is not sure that we can do this in the world of AN. This is why the ADs have pointed at starting points. But would be very happy if other people have other proposals to sovle the same problems, and have a healthy discussion. Concern about accepting the existing docs (email from Rene today: Afraid of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, existing docs will be blindly accepted) - we should not blindly accept those starting points.  But we should be open and look at every proposal. We might receive blocking comments from IESG. 
Finish the next versions of the NMRG docs asap. Might still change. Will keep pushing NMRG chairs to progress those drafts. 
Laurent: The charter states the the first docs will be accepted in Hawaii. 
Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should NOT happen in November. We need to correct that in the charter. 
Michael: So lets change the charter, change milestones. 
Benoit changing the charter on the fly. See new version on the wiki. 
Some discussion on the precise timing of milestones, not captured in detail; bottom line: We take things a bit more slowly to allow all views to be factored in. 
Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for new milestones TODAY and send it to Benoit. 
Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can we see the proposal? 
Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki. 
Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss which BoFs should be approved. Benoit will make the point. Then we'll know whether we'll have a BoF or WG. If there is a BoF, then we need to understand the expected outcome. Would like to hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF isn't there to solve a problem, but to agree that there is a problem to be solved. Maybe not perfectly described. The only positive point in a BoF is if we can describe the problem statement better. 
Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Would be useful to have time for face to face discussions. It's a complex topix. BoF is not the right type of meeting for this discussion. 

    

    

    WG and BoF might or not be the right types of meeting for this
    discussion, yet the need is here. How can we organize ourselves to
    have such discussions?

    

    

      
Michael: Let's just meet informally several times in Hawaii. 
Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG. Any way to work is good. If WG, it should be inclusive to everyone.

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



    

    

    
-- 

      
      
      
      

        
Bien
            cordialement, Best regards,

        
 

        
Laurent
              Ciavaglia

        
Advanced
            Internet Research

        
Bell
            Labs | Alcatel Lucent

        
 

        
phone:
            +33 160 402 636 

        
email:
          laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com

        
linkedin:
          laurentciavaglia

        
address:
            Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

      

    

  


--------------040501050101080001070202--


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Thread-Topic: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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Cc: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" , Sheng Jiang 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Use of the chartering tool for ANIMA
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From: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
To: Benoit Claise , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:55:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Hi Benoit,

Recently I posted  a comment mentioning in brief:

[NMRG_Def] mentions that the ACP provides for the communication means (chan=
nels, interface, etc.). This document states also that autonomic functions =
such as discovery mechanisms use the common infrastructure components but t=
he latter (following the charter section on [main goal] also includes a dis=
covery process/mechanism.

Altogether, it reads as if we have two discovery mechanisms (the same for t=
he negotiation process). I have suggested to simplify this by mentioning a =
"use relationship" between the service agents (and when needed with other c=
omponents) and the discovery process and leave the discussion as to which l=
evel (cf. fig 1 of  it belongs/decomposes when this group will put the pi=
eces together at later stage.

I also want to point out it is impossible during conf.calls to have in dept=
h discussions which are at the root of the higher level ones (as we say in =
French: il n'y a pas de fumee sans feu).

Many thanks,
-dimitri.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 9:55 AM
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
>=20
> Thanks Michael for your notes.
> 3 small corrections below.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
> > Recording:
> > https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D39ac2040acd6406084512=
a
> > 11c80a0edb
> >
> >
> > ANIMA Call
> > 25 Sep 2014
> >
> > Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit received our BoF request, it's on the
> wiki (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki).
> > Are there still blocking factors for a charter?
> > Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG review. The IESG call where the
> > IESG says the charter is ready for external review (2 weeks) Then
> > externals can comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 weeks.
> > We are still on time.
> > Draft -08 of charter has been posted. Only IPv6 management is needs to
> be added.
> > Received an extra few paragraphs. see diff between -06 and -08 of the
> charter.
> >
> > Process: AD not looking for consensus on the textual charter. But there
> should be consensus that people will work towards the charter goals.
> > ADs want to understand open issues. Rene and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit
> was hoping that Dimitri would be on the call...
> > What are the remaining issues?
> > - Do we need to list starting points?
> >
> > Brian: Discussion should be about the WG documents, not about the
> charter.
> > Sheng, Michael: agree.
> > Laurent: Either cite all references or none. Why limit ourselves here?
> > Benoit: I like the starting points in the charter. The goals listed are
> very generic, could be understood in too many ways. The starting points
> should give an idea on what we are thinking about. This doesn't mean that
> the draft listed is the right one, and maybe "starting point" is not the
> right term. AD would be happy to have several competing "starting points"=
.
> > Dimitri worried that people will adopt drafts just because they are
> listed.
> > Brian: Have never seen a WG that just accepted an existing draft. Do no=
t
> see an issue here.
> > Michael: Should we explain this in the charter?
> > Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, not needed to mention explicitly.
> We should not put in the charter normal IETF process.
> ADD: Additionally, I don't think that "Additional work items may only be
> added with approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-
> chartering" is needed. This is normal IETF process.
> > Michael: Worried about negative starting points.
> > Benoit: Autonomics has been around for 10 years. the NMRG work
> progressed very slowly. Let's try out some things and see what works. Ris=
k
> to boil the ocean. In favour of getting something small done. I would be
> happy if every year we'd work on a few new use cases. But concerned that
> we never got anywhere with this.
> NEW:
>=20
> But concerned that we never got anywhere if we take too many use cases
>=20
> > Sheng: Added the sentence in question because we wanted to make sure
> everybody is happy with the charter.
> NEW: Sheng: Added the "Additional work items may only be added with
> approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering"
> sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everybody is happy
> with the charter.
> > Rene and Dimitri seem upset that the charter doesn't contain all they
> want, but new work can be added. The starting point docs are not adopted
> yet.
> > Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll get extra use cases that will
> reuse the components mentioned. Haven't found a way to express that all
> individual drafts are welcome, but we don't want to review all use cases.
> That's why we restricted use cases. But everyone should check that HIS us=
e
> case can reuse components. But cannot write in the charter that if one us=
e
> case breaks some component, we have to start from scratch. Other things
> should be worked on. Understand frustration about many use cases not bein=
g
> picked up.
> > Brain: If we go ahead, you should make this point on the list / in the
> meeting. Rene's comments are very contrstructive.
> > Benoit: We're not looking for consensus on the charter text, but on
> consensus that people will work on it.
> > Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised their hands that they will work
> in this space.
> > Benoit: But this is on this charter text, not on UCAN.
> > Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the NMRG documents before starting
> here.
> > Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 weeks ago, no response from RG
> chairs. In the meantime we got more comments from Rene.
> > Benoit: We should post the latest version, our responsibility, not RG
> chairs.
> > Sheng: use case draft already has another version, not posted yet. Give
> us one week.
> > Michael: definitions draft should also have another version in 1 week.
> > Benoit: Those 2 docs are building blocks, they shouldn't change
> massively from now.
> > Michael: I believe the docs are fundamentally stable, there will always
> be small changes.
> > Brian, Sheng: Agree.
> > Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chairs, to progress the docs. No
> replies.
> > Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. Rene's point still has the point
> the problem statements is not well described.
> > Michael: AN in general is a huge architecture, and we want to work
> bottom up. There is inevitably a huge gap, and people will always feel
> uncomfortable about this.
> > Benoit: Are there still open blocking factors?
> > Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead.
> > Bing Liu: Should go ahead.
> > (no other opinions expressed)
> > Benoit: We've been listening to everybody; the charter is not perfect;
> but it is not sure that we can do this in the world of AN. This is why th=
e
> ADs have pointed at starting points. But would be very happy if other
> people have other proposals to sovle the same problems, and have a health=
y
> discussion. Concern about accepting the existing docs (email from Rene
> today: Afraid of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, existing docs will be
> blindly accepted) - we should not blindly accept those starting points.
> But we should be open and look at every proposal. We might receive
> blocking comments from IESG.
> > Finish the next versions of the NMRG docs asap. Might still change. Wil=
l
> keep pushing NMRG chairs to progress those drafts.
> > Laurent: The charter states the the first docs will be accepted in
> Hawaii.
> > Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should NOT happen in November. We need t=
o
> correct that in the charter.
> > Michael: So lets change the charter, change milestones.
> > Benoit changing the charter on the fly. See new version on the wiki.
> > Some discussion on the precise timing of milestones, not captured in
> detail; bottom line: We take things a bit more slowly to allow all views
> to be factored in.
> > Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for new milestones TODAY and send it t=
o
> Benoit.
> > Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can we see the proposal?
> > Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki.
> > Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss which BoFs should be approved.
> Benoit will make the point. Then we'll know whether we'll have a BoF or
> WG. If there is a BoF, then we need to understand the expected outcome.
> Would like to hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF isn't there to solve a
> problem, but to agree that there is a problem to be solved. Maybe not
> perfectly described. The only positive point in a BoF is if we can
> describe the problem statement better.
> > Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Would be useful to have time for
> face to face discussions. It's a complex topix. BoF is not the right type
> of meeting for this discussion.
> > Michael: Let's just meet informally several times in Hawaii.
> > Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG. Any way to work is good. If WG,
> it should be inclusive to everyone.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > .
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Thu Sep 25 05:27:30 2014
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: Laurent Ciavaglia , "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Laurent, Sheng, thanks for the corrections. It's hard to capture exactly wh=
at was said, so I appreciate the corrections. I wasn't planning on providin=
g updated minutes, I think the mail log captures everything, but can do if =
people prefer...
Michael

From: Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: 25 September 2014 10:25
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today

Thanks for taking care and posting the minutes.

Please find two small changes, in line.

Best regards, Laurent.

On 25/09/2014 09:03, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:

Recording: https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D39ac2040acd640=
6084512a11c80a0edb





ANIMA Call

25 Sep 2014



Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit received our BoF request, it's on the wiki=
 (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki).

Are there still blocking factors for a charter?

Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG review. The IESG call where the IESG

says the charter is ready for external review (2 weeks) Then externals can

comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 weeks.

We are still on time.

Draft -08 of charter has been posted. Only IPv6 management is needs to be a=
dded.

Received an extra few paragraphs. see diff between -06 and -08 of the chart=
er.



Process: AD not looking for consensus on the textual charter. But there sho=
uld be consensus that people will work towards the charter goals.

ADs want to understand open issues. Rene and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit was=
 hoping that Dimitri would be on the call...

What are the remaining issues?

- Do we need to list starting points?



Brian: Discussion should be about the WG documents, not about the charter.

Sheng, Michael: agree.

Laurent: Either cite all references or none. Why limit ourselves here?

Benoit: I like the starting points in the charter. The goals listed are ver=
y generic, could be understood in too many ways. The starting points should=
 give an idea on what we are thinking about. This doesn't mean that the dra=
ft listed is the right one, and maybe "starting point" is not the right ter=
m. AD would be happy to have several competing "starting points".

Dimitri worried that people will adopt drafts just because they are listed.

I think Benoit was talking about Rene, not Dimitri (cf latest emails sent o=
n the list by Rene).





Brian: Have never seen a WG that just accepted an existing draft. Do not se=
e an issue here.

Michael: Should we explain this in the charter?

Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, not needed to mention explicitly. We s=
hould not put in the charter normal IETF process.

Michael: Worried about negative starting points.

Benoit: Autonomics has been around for 10 years. the NMRG work progressed v=
ery slowly. Let's try out some things and see what works. Risk to boil the =
ocean. In favour of getting something small done. I would be happy if every=
 year we'd work on a few new use cases. But concerned that we never got any=
where with this.

Sheng: Added the sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everyb=
ody is happy with the charter. Rene and Dimitri seem upset that the charter=
 doesn't contain all they want, but new work can be added. The starting poi=
nt docs are not adopted yet.

Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll get extra use cases that will reuse=
 the components mentioned. Haven't found a way to express that all individu=
al drafts are welcome, but we don't want to review all use cases. That's wh=
y we restricted use cases. But everyone should check that HIS use case can =
reuse components. But cannot write in the charter that if one use case brea=
ks some component, we have to start from scratch. Other things should be wo=
rked on. Understand frustration about many use cases not being picked up.

Brain: If we go ahead, you should make this point on the list / in the meet=
ing. Rene's comments are very contrstructive.

Benoit: We're not looking for consensus on the charter text, but on consens=
us that people will work on it.

Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised their hands that they will work in t=
his space.

Benoit: But this is on this charter text, not on UCAN.

Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the NMRG documents before starting here=
.

Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 weeks ago, no response from RG chairs=
. In the meantime we got more comments from Rene.

Benoit: We should post the latest version, our responsibility, not RG chair=
s.

Sheng: use case draft already has another version, not posted yet. Give us =
one week.

Michael: definitions draft should also have another version in 1 week.

Benoit: Those 2 docs are building blocks, they shouldn't change massively f=
rom now.

Michael: I believe the docs are fundamentally stable, there will always be =
small changes.

Brian, Sheng: Agree.

Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chairs, to progress the docs. No replies.

Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. Rene's point still has the point the=
 problem statements is not well described.

Michael: AN in general is a huge architecture, and we want to work bottom u=
p. There is inevitably a huge gap, and people will always feel uncomfortabl=
e about this.

Benoit: Are there still open blocking factors?

Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead.

Bing Liu: Should go ahead.

(no other opinions expressed)

Benoit: We've been listening to everybody; the charter is not perfect; but =
it is not sure that we can do this in the world of AN. This is why the ADs =
have pointed at starting points. But would be very happy if other people ha=
ve other proposals to sovle the same problems, and have a healthy discussio=
n. Concern about accepting the existing docs (email from Rene today: Afraid=
 of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, existing docs will be blindly accepted=
) - we should not blindly accept those starting points.  But we should be o=
pen and look at every proposal. We might receive blocking comments from IES=
G.

Finish the next versions of the NMRG docs asap. Might still change. Will ke=
ep pushing NMRG chairs to progress those drafts.

Laurent: The charter states the the first docs will be accepted in Hawaii.

Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should NOT happen in November. We need to co=
rrect that in the charter.

Michael: So lets change the charter, change milestones.

Benoit changing the charter on the fly. See new version on the wiki.

Some discussion on the precise timing of milestones, not captured in detail=
; bottom line: We take things a bit more slowly to allow all views to be fa=
ctored in.

Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for new milestones TODAY and send it to Be=
noit.

Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can we see the proposal?

Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki.

Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss which BoFs should be approved. Benoit w=
ill make the point. Then we'll know whether we'll have a BoF or WG. If ther=
e is a BoF, then we need to understand the expected outcome. Would like to =
hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF isn't there to solve a problem, but to=
 agree that there is a problem to be solved. Maybe not perfectly described.=
 The only positive point in a BoF is if we can describe the problem stateme=
nt better.

Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Would be useful to have time for face t=
o face discussions. It's a complex topix. BoF is not the right type of meet=
ing for this discussion.

WG and BoF might or not be the right types of meeting for this discussion, =
yet the need is here. How can we organize ourselves to have such discussion=
s?





Michael: Let's just meet informally several times in Hawaii.

Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG. Any way to work is good. If WG, it =
should be inclusive to everyone.



_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



--
Bien cordialement, Best regards,

Laurent Ciavaglia
Advanced Internet Research
Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636
email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
linkedin: laurentciavaglia
address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C51461xmbrcdx14ciscoc_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











=
Laurent, Sh=
eng, thanks for the corrections. It’s hard to capture exactly what wa=
s said, so I appreciate the corrections. I wasn’t
 planning on providing updated minutes, I think the mail log captures every=
thing, but can do if people prefer…


=
Michael


=
 =










From:
 Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com] 

Sent: 25 September 2014 10:2=
5

To: Michael Behringer (mbehr=
ing); anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes f=
rom the ANIMA Call today






=
 <=
/font>


Thanks for taking care and po=
sting the minutes.



Please find two small changes, in line.



Best regards, Laurent.








On 25/09/2014 09:03, Michael Behringer (mbehring) =
wrote:






Recording: https://=
cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3D39ac2040acd6406084512a11c80a0edb<=
/a> 


 


 


ANIMA Call

25 Sep 2014

 


Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit receiv=
ed our BoF request, it's on the wiki (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki). <=
/span>


Are there still blocking factors for a =
charter? 


Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG =
review. The IESG call where the IESG


says the charter is ready for external =
review (2 weeks) Then externals can 


comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 we=
eks. 


We are still on time. 


Draft -08 of charter has been posted. O=
nly IPv6 management is needs to be added. 


Received an extra few paragraphs. see d=
iff between -06 and -08 of the charter. 


 


Process: AD not looking for consensus o=
n the textual charter. But there should be consensus that people will work =
towards the charter goals. 


ADs want to understand open issues. Ren=
e and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit was hoping that Dimitri would be on the ca=
ll... 


What are the remaining issues? 


- Do we need to list starting points? <=
o:p>


 


Brian: Discussion should be about the W=
G documents, not about the charter. 


Sheng, Michael: agree. 


Laurent: Either cite all references or =
none. Why limit ourselves here?


Benoit: I like the starting points in t=
he charter. The goals listed are very generic, could be understood in too m=
any ways. The starting points should give an idea on what we are thinking a=
bout. This doesn't mean that the draft listed is the right one, and maybe &=
quot;starting point" is not the right term. AD would be happy to have =
several competing "starting points". 

Dimitri worried that people will adopt =
drafts just because they are listed. 




=


I think Benoit was talking about Rene, not Dimitri (cf latest emails sent o=
n the list by Rene).








 


Brian: Have never seen a WG that just a=
ccepted an existing draft. Do not see an issue here. 


Michael: Should we explain this in the =
charter? 


Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, no=
t needed to mention explicitly. We should not put in the charter normal IET=
F process. 


Michael: Worried about negative startin=
g points. 


Benoit: Autonomics has been around for =
10 years. the NMRG work progressed very slowly. Let's try out some things a=
nd see what works. Risk to boil the ocean. In favour of getting something s=
mall done. I would be happy if every year we'd work on a few new use cases.=
 But concerned that we never got anywhere with this. 


Sheng: Added the sentence in question b=
ecause we wanted to make sure everybody is happy with the charter. Rene and=
 Dimitri seem upset that the charter doesn't contain all they want, but new=
 work can be added. The starting point docs are not adopted yet. 


Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll=
 get extra use cases that will reuse the components mentioned. Haven't foun=
d a way to express that all individual drafts are welcome, but we don't wan=
t to review all use cases. That's why we restricted use cases. But everyone=
 should check that HIS use case can reuse components. But cannot write in t=
he charter that if one use case breaks some component, we have to start fro=
m scratch. Other things should be worked on. Understand frustration about m=
any use cases not being picked up. 


Brain: If we go ahead, you should make =
this point on the list / in the meeting. Rene's comments are very contrstru=
ctive. 


Benoit: We're not looking for consensus=
 on the charter text, but on consensus that people will work on it. 


Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised =
their hands that they will work in this space. 

Benoit: But this is on this charter tex=
t, not on UCAN. 


Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the=
 NMRG documents before starting here. 


Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 w=
eeks ago, no response from RG chairs. In the meantime we got more comments =
from Rene. 


Benoit: We should post the latest versi=
on, our responsibility, not RG chairs. 


Sheng: use case draft already has anoth=
er version, not posted yet. Give us one week. 

Michael: definitions draft should also =
have another version in 1 week. 


Benoit: Those 2 docs are building block=
s, they shouldn't change massively from now. 

Michael: I believe the docs are fundame=
ntally stable, there will always be small changes. 


Brian, Sheng: Agree. =



Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chair=
s, to progress the docs. No replies. 


Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. =
Rene's point still has the point the problem statements is not well describ=
ed. 


Michael: AN in general is a huge archit=
ecture, and we want to work bottom up. There is inevitably a huge gap, and =
people will always feel uncomfortable about this. =



Benoit: Are there still open blocking f=
actors? 


Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead. 


Bing Liu: Should go ahead. <=
/span>


(no other opinions expressed)


Benoit: We've been listening to everybo=
dy; the charter is not perfect; but it is not sure that we can do this in t=
he world of AN. This is why the ADs have pointed at starting points. But wo=
uld be very happy if other people have other proposals to sovle the same pr=
oblems, and have a healthy discussion. Concern about accepting the existing=
 docs (email from Rene today: Afraid of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, ex=
isting docs will be blindly accepted) - we should not blindly accept those =
starting points.  But we should be open and look at every proposal. We=
 might receive blocking comments from IESG. 


Finish the next versions of the NMRG do=
cs asap. Might still change. Will keep pushing NMRG chairs to progress thos=
e drafts. 


Laurent: The charter states the the fir=
st docs will be accepted in Hawaii. 


Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should N=
OT happen in November. We need to correct that in the charter. <=
/span>


Michael: So lets change the charter, ch=
ange milestones. 


Benoit changing the charter on the fly.=
 See new version on the wiki. 


Some discussion on the precise timing o=
f milestones, not captured in detail; bottom line: We take things a bit mor=
e slowly to allow all views to be factored in. 

Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for ne=
w milestones TODAY and send it to Benoit. 


Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can=
 we see the proposal? 


Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bo=
f/trac/wiki. 


Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss whi=
ch BoFs should be approved. Benoit will make the point. Then we'll know whe=
ther we'll have a BoF or WG. If there is a BoF, then we need to understand =
the expected outcome. Would like to hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF is=
n't there to solve a problem, but to agree that there is a problem to be so=
lved. Maybe not perfectly described. The only positive point in a BoF is if=
 we can describe the problem statement better. 

Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Wou=
ld be useful to have time for face to face discussions. It's a complex topi=
x. BoF is not the right type of meeting for this discussion. 


=


WG and BoF might or not be the right types of meeting for this discussion, =
yet the need is here. How can we organize ourselves to have such discussion=
s?








 


Michael: Let's just meet informally sev=
eral times in Hawaii. 


Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG.=
 Any way to work is good. If WG, it should be inclusive to everyone.


 


_______________________________________=
________


Anima mailing list


Anima=
@ietf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=



 


=
 <=
/font>





-- 




Bien cordialement, Best regards,



 



Laurent Ciavaglia



Advanced Internet Research


Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent


 



phone: +33 160 402 636




email:
laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lu=
cent.com



linkedin:
laurentciavaglia



address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France










--_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C51461xmbrcdx14ciscoc_--


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To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C4F7DC@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5423D151.300@alcatel-lucent.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C51461@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com>
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Cc: Laurent Ciavaglia , "anima@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Michael,

Since we have several corrections, I would appreciate a consolidated
version before I post the notes to the wiki.

(Apologies for dropping from the call after about 45 minutes, but the
audio quality degraded badly for some reason.)

Regards
   Brian

On 26/09/2014 00:27, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> Laurent, Sheng, thanks for the corrections. It's hard to capture exactly what was said, so I appreciate the corrections. I wasn't planning on providing updated minutes, I think the mail log captures everything, but can do if people prefer...
> Michael
> 
> From: Laurent Ciavaglia [mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: 25 September 2014 10:25
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
> 
> Thanks for taking care and posting the minutes.
> 
> Please find two small changes, in line.
> 
> Best regards, Laurent.
> 
> On 25/09/2014 09:03, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> 
> Recording: https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=39ac2040acd6406084512a11c80a0edb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ANIMA Call
> 
> 25 Sep 2014
> 
> 
> 
> Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit received our BoF request, it's on the wiki (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki).
> 
> Are there still blocking factors for a charter?
> 
> Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG review. The IESG call where the IESG
> 
> says the charter is ready for external review (2 weeks) Then externals can
> 
> comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 weeks.
> 
> We are still on time.
> 
> Draft -08 of charter has been posted. Only IPv6 management is needs to be added.
> 
> Received an extra few paragraphs. see diff between -06 and -08 of the charter.
> 
> 
> 
> Process: AD not looking for consensus on the textual charter. But there should be consensus that people will work towards the charter goals.
> 
> ADs want to understand open issues. Rene and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit was hoping that Dimitri would be on the call...
> 
> What are the remaining issues?
> 
> - Do we need to list starting points?
> 
> 
> 
> Brian: Discussion should be about the WG documents, not about the charter.
> 
> Sheng, Michael: agree.
> 
> Laurent: Either cite all references or none. Why limit ourselves here?
> 
> Benoit: I like the starting points in the charter. The goals listed are very generic, could be understood in too many ways. The starting points should give an idea on what we are thinking about. This doesn't mean that the draft listed is the right one, and maybe "starting point" is not the right term. AD would be happy to have several competing "starting points".
> 
> Dimitri worried that people will adopt drafts just because they are listed.
> 
> I think Benoit was talking about Rene, not Dimitri (cf latest emails sent on the list by Rene).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian: Have never seen a WG that just accepted an existing draft. Do not see an issue here.
> 
> Michael: Should we explain this in the charter?
> 
> Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, not needed to mention explicitly. We should not put in the charter normal IETF process.
> 
> Michael: Worried about negative starting points.
> 
> Benoit: Autonomics has been around for 10 years. the NMRG work progressed very slowly. Let's try out some things and see what works. Risk to boil the ocean. In favour of getting something small done. I would be happy if every year we'd work on a few new use cases. But concerned that we never got anywhere with this.
> 
> Sheng: Added the sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everybody is happy with the charter. Rene and Dimitri seem upset that the charter doesn't contain all they want, but new work can be added. The starting point docs are not adopted yet.
> 
> Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll get extra use cases that will reuse the components mentioned. Haven't found a way to express that all individual drafts are welcome, but we don't want to review all use cases. That's why we restricted use cases. But everyone should check that HIS use case can reuse components. But cannot write in the charter that if one use case breaks some component, we have to start from scratch. Other things should be worked on. Understand frustration about many use cases not being picked up.
> 
> Brain: If we go ahead, you should make this point on the list / in the meeting. Rene's comments are very contrstructive.
> 
> Benoit: We're not looking for consensus on the charter text, but on consensus that people will work on it.
> 
> Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised their hands that they will work in this space.
> 
> Benoit: But this is on this charter text, not on UCAN.
> 
> Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the NMRG documents before starting here.
> 
> Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 weeks ago, no response from RG chairs. In the meantime we got more comments from Rene.
> 
> Benoit: We should post the latest version, our responsibility, not RG chairs.
> 
> Sheng: use case draft already has another version, not posted yet. Give us one week.
> 
> Michael: definitions draft should also have another version in 1 week.
> 
> Benoit: Those 2 docs are building blocks, they shouldn't change massively from now.
> 
> Michael: I believe the docs are fundamentally stable, there will always be small changes.
> 
> Brian, Sheng: Agree.
> 
> Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chairs, to progress the docs. No replies.
> 
> Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. Rene's point still has the point the problem statements is not well described.
> 
> Michael: AN in general is a huge architecture, and we want to work bottom up. There is inevitably a huge gap, and people will always feel uncomfortable about this.
> 
> Benoit: Are there still open blocking factors?
> 
> Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead.
> 
> Bing Liu: Should go ahead.
> 
> (no other opinions expressed)
> 
> Benoit: We've been listening to everybody; the charter is not perfect; but it is not sure that we can do this in the world of AN. This is why the ADs have pointed at starting points. But would be very happy if other people have other proposals to sovle the same problems, and have a healthy discussion. Concern about accepting the existing docs (email from Rene today: Afraid of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, existing docs will be blindly accepted) - we should not blindly accept those starting points.  But we should be open and look at every proposal. We might receive blocking comments from IESG.
> 
> Finish the next versions of the NMRG docs asap. Might still change. Will keep pushing NMRG chairs to progress those drafts.
> 
> Laurent: The charter states the the first docs will be accepted in Hawaii.
> 
> Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should NOT happen in November. We need to correct that in the charter.
> 
> Michael: So lets change the charter, change milestones.
> 
> Benoit changing the charter on the fly. See new version on the wiki.
> 
> Some discussion on the precise timing of milestones, not captured in detail; bottom line: We take things a bit more slowly to allow all views to be factored in.
> 
> Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for new milestones TODAY and send it to Benoit.
> 
> Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can we see the proposal?
> 
> Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki.
> 
> Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss which BoFs should be approved. Benoit will make the point. Then we'll know whether we'll have a BoF or WG. If there is a BoF, then we need to understand the expected outcome. Would like to hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF isn't there to solve a problem, but to agree that there is a problem to be solved. Maybe not perfectly described. The only positive point in a BoF is if we can describe the problem statement better.
> 
> Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Would be useful to have time for face to face discussions. It's a complex topix. BoF is not the right type of meeting for this discussion.
> 
> WG and BoF might or not be the right types of meeting for this discussion, yet the need is here. How can we organize ourselves to have such discussions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael: Let's just meet informally several times in Hawaii.
> 
> Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG. Any way to work is good. If WG, it should be inclusive to everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Anima mailing list
> 
> Anima@ietf.org
> 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
> 
> Laurent Ciavaglia
> Advanced Internet Research
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
> 
> phone: +33 160 402 636
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Thu Sep 25 13:09:49 2014
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Message-ID: <5424768C.1090701@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:09:48 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: "Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri)" 
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Cc: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" 
Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
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Dimitri,

On 25/09/2014 23:55, Papadimitriou, Dimitri (Dimitri) wrote:
> Hi Benoit,
> 
> Recently I posted  a comment mentioning in brief:
> 
> [NMRG_Def] mentions that the ACP provides for the communication means (channels, interface, etc.). This document states also that autonomic functions such as discovery mechanisms use the common infrastructure components but the latter (following the charter section on [main goal] also includes a discovery process/mechanism.
> 
> Altogether, it reads as if we have two discovery mechanisms (the same for the negotiation process). 

Yes, certainly this needs to be resolved as we move forward. That's one reason
we propose an overview draft, and I expect we will need an issue tracker
as well.

> I have suggested to simplify this by mentioning a "use relationship" between the service agents (and when needed with other components) and the discovery process and leave the discussion as to which level (cf. fig 1 of  it belongs/decomposes when this group will put the pieces together at later stage.
> 
> I also want to point out it is impossible during conf.calls to have in depth discussions which are at the root of the higher level ones (as we say in French: il n'y a pas de fumee sans feu).

You can say "There's no smoke without fire" in English, too. But this is
exactly why we want a good discussion at the next IETF (and the milestones
will be adjusted accordingly).

    Brian
> 
> Many thanks,
> -dimitri.
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 9:55 AM
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA Call today
>>
>> Thanks Michael for your notes.
>> 3 small corrections below.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>> Recording:
>>> https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=39ac2040acd6406084512a
>>> 11c80a0edb
>>>
>>>
>>> ANIMA Call
>>> 25 Sep 2014
>>>
>>> Benoit: Process: Joel and Benoit received our BoF request, it's on the
>> wiki (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki).
>>> Are there still blocking factors for a charter?
>>> Assume perfect process: 1 week of IESG review. The IESG call where the
>>> IESG says the charter is ready for external review (2 weeks) Then
>>> externals can comment for 2 weeks. So minimun is 5 weeks.
>>> We are still on time.
>>> Draft -08 of charter has been posted. Only IPv6 management is needs to
>> be added.
>>> Received an extra few paragraphs. see diff between -06 and -08 of the
>> charter.
>>> Process: AD not looking for consensus on the textual charter. But there
>> should be consensus that people will work towards the charter goals.
>>> ADs want to understand open issues. Rene and Dimitri sent a few. Benoit
>> was hoping that Dimitri would be on the call...
>>> What are the remaining issues?
>>> - Do we need to list starting points?
>>>
>>> Brian: Discussion should be about the WG documents, not about the
>> charter.
>>> Sheng, Michael: agree.
>>> Laurent: Either cite all references or none. Why limit ourselves here?
>>> Benoit: I like the starting points in the charter. The goals listed are
>> very generic, could be understood in too many ways. The starting points
>> should give an idea on what we are thinking about. This doesn't mean that
>> the draft listed is the right one, and maybe "starting point" is not the
>> right term. AD would be happy to have several competing "starting points".
>>> Dimitri worried that people will adopt drafts just because they are
>> listed.
>>> Brian: Have never seen a WG that just accepted an existing draft. Do not
>> see an issue here.
>>> Michael: Should we explain this in the charter?
>>> Benoit: This is normal WG procedure, not needed to mention explicitly.
>> We should not put in the charter normal IETF process.
>> ADD: Additionally, I don't think that "Additional work items may only be
>> added with approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-
>> chartering" is needed. This is normal IETF process.
>>> Michael: Worried about negative starting points.
>>> Benoit: Autonomics has been around for 10 years. the NMRG work
>> progressed very slowly. Let's try out some things and see what works. Risk
>> to boil the ocean. In favour of getting something small done. I would be
>> happy if every year we'd work on a few new use cases. But concerned that
>> we never got anywhere with this.
>> NEW:
>>
>> But concerned that we never got anywhere if we take too many use cases
>>
>>> Sheng: Added the sentence in question because we wanted to make sure
>> everybody is happy with the charter.
>> NEW: Sheng: Added the "Additional work items may only be added with
>> approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering"
>> sentence in question because we wanted to make sure everybody is happy
>> with the charter.
>>> Rene and Dimitri seem upset that the charter doesn't contain all they
>> want, but new work can be added. The starting point docs are not adopted
>> yet.
>>> Benoit: use case issue: hope that we'll get extra use cases that will
>> reuse the components mentioned. Haven't found a way to express that all
>> individual drafts are welcome, but we don't want to review all use cases.
>> That's why we restricted use cases. But everyone should check that HIS use
>> case can reuse components. But cannot write in the charter that if one use
>> case breaks some component, we have to start from scratch. Other things
>> should be worked on. Understand frustration about many use cases not being
>> picked up.
>>> Brain: If we go ahead, you should make this point on the list / in the
>> meeting. Rene's comments are very contrstructive.
>>> Benoit: We're not looking for consensus on the charter text, but on
>> consensus that people will work on it.
>>> Michael: At UCAN BoF, 20 people raised their hands that they will work
>> in this space.
>>> Benoit: But this is on this charter text, not on UCAN.
>>> Benoit: Ideally want a last call on the NMRG documents before starting
>> here.
>>> Michael: We posted the docs about 2-3 weeks ago, no response from RG
>> chairs. In the meantime we got more comments from Rene.
>>> Benoit: We should post the latest version, our responsibility, not RG
>> chairs.
>>> Sheng: use case draft already has another version, not posted yet. Give
>> us one week.
>>> Michael: definitions draft should also have another version in 1 week.
>>> Benoit: Those 2 docs are building blocks, they shouldn't change
>> massively from now.
>>> Michael: I believe the docs are fundamentally stable, there will always
>> be small changes.
>>> Brian, Sheng: Agree.
>>> Benoit: Sent a few emails to NMRG chairs, to progress the docs. No
>> replies.
>>> Benoit: Have covered Dimitri's points. Rene's point still has the point
>> the problem statements is not well described.
>>> Michael: AN in general is a huge architecture, and we want to work
>> bottom up. There is inevitably a huge gap, and people will always feel
>> uncomfortable about this.
>>> Benoit: Are there still open blocking factors?
>>> Laurent: No. It's time to go ahead.
>>> Bing Liu: Should go ahead.
>>> (no other opinions expressed)
>>> Benoit: We've been listening to everybody; the charter is not perfect;
>> but it is not sure that we can do this in the world of AN. This is why the
>> ADs have pointed at starting points. But would be very happy if other
>> people have other proposals to sovle the same problems, and have a healthy
>> discussion. Concern about accepting the existing docs (email from Rene
>> today: Afraid of being too fast; if WG in Hawaii, existing docs will be
>> blindly accepted) - we should not blindly accept those starting points.
>> But we should be open and look at every proposal. We might receive
>> blocking comments from IESG.
>>> Finish the next versions of the NMRG docs asap. Might still change. Will
>> keep pushing NMRG chairs to progress those drafts.
>>> Laurent: The charter states the the first docs will be accepted in
>> Hawaii.
>>> Benoit: Very good point!!!! It should NOT happen in November. We need to
>> correct that in the charter.
>>> Michael: So lets change the charter, change milestones.
>>> Benoit changing the charter on the fly. See new version on the wiki.
>>> Some discussion on the precise timing of milestones, not captured in
>> detail; bottom line: We take things a bit more slowly to allow all views
>> to be factored in.
>>> Benoit: Michael makes a proposal for new milestones TODAY and send it to
>> Benoit.
>>> Laurent: BoF request has been sent; can we see the proposal?
>>> Benoit: See ANIMA proposal in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki.
>>> Benoit: Next wed, IESG will discuss which BoFs should be approved.
>> Benoit will make the point. Then we'll know whether we'll have a BoF or
>> WG. If there is a BoF, then we need to understand the expected outcome.
>> Would like to hear from Dimitri his opinion. A BoF isn't there to solve a
>> problem, but to agree that there is a problem to be solved. Maybe not
>> perfectly described. The only positive point in a BoF is if we can
>> describe the problem statement better.
>>> Laurent: Would prefer a WG meeting. Would be useful to have time for
>> face to face discussions. It's a complex topix. BoF is not the right type
>> of meeting for this discussion.
>>> Michael: Let's just meet informally several times in Hawaii.
>>> Benoit: We should also discuss in NMRG. Any way to work is good. If WG,
>> it should be inclusive to everyone.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>> .
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> .
> 


From nobody Fri Sep 26 07:11:03 2014
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: Brian E Carpenter , Rene Struik 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
Thread-Index: AQHP0f975w1BlaZC6Ey3opNhJzXQgZwOYZ2AgAUhEeA=
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Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> Carpenter
> Sent: 23 September 2014 04:49
> To: Rene Struik
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
>=20
> Rene,
>=20
> On 17/09/2014 10:42, Rene Struik wrote:
> > Dear colleagues:
> >
> > Please find below my initial comments on
> > draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.
>=20
> ...
> > b) Section 4 would benefit from including also some head ache areas in
> > security configuration, including OCSP, CRLs, policy pushes, device
> > provisioning, etc.
>=20
> Can you sketch this in a bit more detail? I'm having a little difficulty =
because
> I'm not sure how the examples you give can be turned into self-
> management. In particular a lot of this is top-down, isn't it? Or do you =
think
> CRLS can be generated down in the infrstructure?

I think I understand what Rene meant, and gave this a shot. See below a new=
 security section for pre-view and comments. This text isn't only my work, =
it came from Brian and Sheng as well.=20

So the below would go into section 4: Rene, does this address your points?=
=20

Michael



        Setting up security for a network generally requires very detail=
ed
        human intervention, or relies entirely on default configurations th=
at
        may be too strict or too risky for the particular situation of the
        network. While some aspects of security are intrinsically top-down
        in nature (e.g. broadcasting a specific security policy to all
        hosts), others could be self-managed within the network.  
        
        In an autonomic network, where nodes within a domain have a mutuall=
y
        verifiable domain identity, security processes could run entirely
        automatically. Nodes could identify each other securely, negotiatin=
g
        required security settings and even shared keys if needed. The loca=
tion=20
        of trust anchors (certificate authority, registration authority), =
=20
        certificate revocation lists, policy server, etc can be=20
        found by service discovery. Transaction such as a certificate revoc=
ation=20
        list download can be authenticated via a common trust anchor. =20
        Policy distribution can also be entirely automated, and secured via=
=20
        a common trust anchor. 
        These concepts lead to a network where the intrinsic security is=
=20
        automatic and applied by default, i.e., a "self-protecting" network=
.=20
        see also 
      

=20
> Regards
>     Brian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: Benoit Claise 
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Subject: [Anima] ANIMA: next step
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Dear all,

Thank you for the recent discussions on the list, and the numerous 
weekly webex calls. We heard from many of you.
During the last call, my primary goal was to evaluate the remaining open 
issues.
Yes, there are still open questions, but I believe that those could be 
resolved in a future WG.
At this point in time, I conclude that there is a willingness to work on 
the charter deliverables 
, and I'm sending this 
proposed charter to the IESG for review.

Depending on the feedback, we might have a WG for the next IETF meeting. 
The backup plan is a second BoF.

Background info: 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00353.html

Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)






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    Dear all,

    

    Thank you for the recent discussions on the list, and the numerous
    weekly webex calls. We heard from many of you.

    During the last call, my primary goal was to evaluate the remaining
    open issues.

    Yes, there are still open questions, but I believe that those could
    be resolved in a future WG.

    At this point in time, I conclude that there is a willingness to
    work on the charter
      deliverables, and I'm sending this proposed charter to the
    IESG for review.

    

    Depending on the feedback, we might have a WG for the next IETF
    meeting. The backup plan is a second BoF.

    

    Background info:
    http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00353.html

    

    Regards, Benoit (OPS AD)

    



    

    

    

  


--------------070406050801000704000304--


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From: Dean Bogdanovic 
To: Rene Struik 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00
Thread-Index: AQHP0tFueBDgSfGk/0qsh042SIjRaJwaIV6A
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 19:19:51 +0000
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Rene,

I have another comment to your very detailed review of that draft. This is =
first bullet in section 6


Secure bootstrap of new devices without requiring any
      configuration.  As explained in Section 3, a new device will
      automatically be bootstrapped in a secure fashion and be deployed
      with a domain certificate.  This will happen without any
      configuration, allowing a new device to be shipped directly to the
      end-user location without the need for any pre-provisioning.

How is this different from draft-kwatsen-netconf-zerotouch-01?

The zero-touch allows device to be shipped directly from vendor and deploye=
d into the network without any human intervention, except to be installed a=
nd wired.

I'm in support of creating autonomic networks, but we have to see what exis=
ting mechanisms can be used to that goal and if they need improvements. Wou=
ld not recommend doing everything from scratch.

Dean

On Sep 17, 2014, at 7:44 PM, Rene Struik > wrote:

Dear colleagues:

Please find below my initial comments on draft-behringer-autonomic-control-=
plane-00

1. Summary:
The draft discusses a mechanism for networking that presumably can operate =
in parallel to ordinary network operation and is able to operate without co=
nfiguration.

2. General comments:
a) The idea of autonomic control plane relies on group membership notions e=
videnced by a so-called domain certificate. It is unclear what the ramifica=
tions of this approach are, in terms of provisioning, coordination, and pre=
-planning cost, and in terms of deployment flexibility of devices throughou=
t their lifetime. The notion could possibly work with quite static networks=
; however, the comparison with other mechanisms for implementing group memb=
ership notions require consideration. It is hard to see how this notion cou=
ld work with more dynamic topologies or where flexible deployment is requir=
ed. Certificate management aspects (e.g., key validity, revocation) also re=
quire lots of attention, as well as manufacturing aspects (should certs be =
generated during manufacturing) {since one should know where a device will =
be deployed before issuing the cert}.
b) The autonomic control plane concept seems to require adoption of the con=
cepts in another draft (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00)=
 to work.

3. Specific comments:

Section 1:
1) Third para (bottom of p. 1): It would help to elaborate on what "indepen=
dent of configuration, addressing and routing problems" means. Does this me=
an one wishes the "autonomic contorl plane" (ACP) protocol to be independen=
t of routing addressing schemes that may be topology-dependent and independ=
ent of any routing tables? Please elaborate.
2) First para of p. 2: While the cross-referencing to another draft with co=
mmon authors (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00) is given =
seemingly simply "as an example", it seems hard to evaluate this draft on i=
ts own merits without considering that other cross-referenced draft at the =
same time. This complicates the review and makes the task of seeing whether=
 certain designs all have to be used simultaneously or not at all, or wheth=
er these cover modules that are largely independent arduous. I would prefer=
 untangling of lots of the nmrg drafts, which now
often cross-reference each other. To reach an informed opinion, I had to re=
ad them all, rather than being able to read these as drafts that mostly sto=
od on their own. I feel this discourages inviting comments from the communi=
ty at large.
3) The idea of the autonomic control plane seems to be to similar to the "d=
ry run" option expressed in draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see my ge=
neral review remark #b on that draft), in the sense that one can run the AC=
P network in an otherwise operational network. This does sound more like a =
logical flow separation issue, where the operational network and the "ACP n=
etwork" version run in "different colors". This could be realized if one co=
uld have more than one instantiation of a protocol running at the same time=
, with logical separation being provided by color coding messaging and conf=
iguration data. I can see how this could be realized if one deals with dire=
ct neighbors in the "ACP color" (since then routing is effectively non-exis=
tent), but had trouble to understand if one wishes to communicate with a mo=
re remote "ACP node" (or, more precisely, a node that allows ACP-instantiat=
ed traffic). At the same time, at the local non-routing level, can't one al=
ready communicate on the local direct neighbor level using existing techniq=
ues? (If not, one should explain this in the draft.)

Section 2:
4) First bullet: replace "bootstrapping of a device today" by "bootstrappin=
g of a device today typically" (after all, not all existing networks today =
require execution of network formation in a carefully preplanned order and =
with lots of coordination [lots of well-designed sensor networks can form i=
n virtually any order, almost without human intervention]).
5) First bullet: do I have to (sadly) conclude there is absolutely no IETF =
protocol out there where where network formation can happen in a more organ=
ic manner? {sorry - I do not know all the zillions of RFCs by heart.} After=
 all, even if a joining device has to authenticate to the network, any publ=
ic-key based authenticated key agreement scheme can run over any channel (s=
ecured or not), so having UDP and a network sink seems to suffice (can't on=
e use DTLS, here?). This makes me wonder (if my sad conclusion actually doe=
s hold) what this bottleneck is: addressing scheme, authorization issues, p=
ure insanity? The current draft, unfortunately, does not elaborate on the c=
urrent show-stoppers, except to suggest that one somehow needs console acce=
ss. It would be extremely beneficial to give this more elaborate insight. {=
This makes me wonder how the internet recovers if one blows part of the net=
work away and tries to reform what is left ("survivability", "failure recov=
ery").}
6) Third bullet: add full-stop at the end of the first line.

Section 3:
7) Section 3.2, second para: replace "an globally" by "a globally".
8) Section 3.2, second para: one should add some verbiage re privacy implic=
ations of the adjacency discovery mechanism. (Note: on a more general note,=
 it is hard to find any reference to privacy considerations, tracking, trac=
eability, anonymity in any of the nmrg-related drafts.)
9) Section 3.2, bulletized list: I wonder how any automatic mechanism may d=
erive any notion of "trust" and validity hereof. This should be clarified.(=
Or, does one simply imply that whatever has a certificate issued by a speci=
fic CA is automatically "trusted"??)
10) Section 3.3: this section seems to assume that devices that have a "dom=
ain" certificate issued by the same CA are to be mutually trusted. While on=
e can indeed use this (very coarse-grained) mechanism for evidencing member=
ship of the same group ("domain"), this is not a priori provide for autonom=
ic networking, at least not without carefully articulating first how these =
should be issued, what preplanning and coordination this requires and what =
the impact is on flexibility of deployment. This should then be compared wi=
th alternatives, such as the use of group keys in the example of a network =
with a network manager who keeps a repository of device identifiers and pro=
vides triage on network access via, e.g., a white list.
11) Section 3.3: if one where to use domain identities, these could also be=
 realized via attribute certs, rather than device certs. This would have th=
e advantage of separating the CA role from the domain-mapping role (which c=
ould be implemented more locally).
12) Section 3.3: domain certificate validation by itself does not establish=
 group membership (since any device can send this publicly known string); u=
se of the private key (aka "key possession") is required too. I suggest mak=
ing this more clear in the draft.
13) Section 3.3, p. 5 (last bullet): if checking whether a certificate is i=
nvalid or expired requires 3rd party assistance (e.g., to implement OCSP, C=
RL, or securely synchronize time) this protocol may no longer be autonomic.=
 By group membership depend on CA-issued "domain" certificates, one almost =
automatically forces this scenario, unless one ignores key validity lifetim=
e issues and issues certs with "eternal life".
14) Section 3.4: one should define the concept of GRE tunnels. Moreover, wo=
uldn't one loose potential interoperability and invite configuration issues=
 by suggesting a plethora of options for establishing and maintaining a sec=
ure channel here (IPSec, "GRE tunnels", etc.)?
15) Section 3.5: if one does not wish to depend on link configured addresse=
s, can't one use cryptographically generated addresses instead?
16) Section 3.5: as already said before (see remark #3), it is unclear how =
routing over more than one hop is realized.
17) Section 3.5: one should explain what 802.1q tags are and which useful f=
unctions these could provide in the context of ACP networking.
18) Section 3.6: The main benefit of having an ACP networking options (for =
"emergency" purposes) seems to be that one does not necessarily need to use=
 lots of configuration that, while useful for routing of ordinary traffic, =
does not really matter too much for non-throughput/non-time latency optimiz=
ed communications, such as for network diagnostics by qualified personnel. =
If correct, I would suggest some verbiage explaining this philosophy in mor=
e detail. (Even if incorrect, I would still suggest to add more explanation=
 here.)
19) Section 3.7: It is unclear why one needs another address in ACP context=
: the "domain" is already in the domain certificate; why can't one use a cr=
yptographically generated address? Why does one need to have the same prefi=
x for all domain devices (since ACP networking is defined from scratch and =
no routing approach is defined, there does not seem to be any need to stick=
 to IPv6 address formats with 64-bit prefixes (which, again, codifies topol=
ogy dependent information!).
20) Section 3.8: it is unclear who/what has domain control for propagation =
of routing information.
21) Section 3.8, top of p. 7: it would be good to add some more background =
as to why RPL as a routing protocol would be a suitable candidate for auton=
omic networking, what the dependency is on the addressing scheme suggested =
in Section 3.7 and whether, e.g., different instantiations of RPL can run a=
t the same time (this would be of interest should one wish to use ACP conce=
pt in a constrained network setting that already uses RPL for ordinary netw=
orking). As an aside: the RPL specification [RFC 6550] does not include key=
 management functionality, so it would be of interest to see whether what t=
his draft proposes can fill in part of this void...

Section 4:
22) First bullet: it would help to have some insight in case of anomalies, =
such as "what happens if tables are full".
23) Third bullet: this raises the question as to scope and lifecycle aspect=
s of domain certificates (see also remark #13).

Section 5:
24) second line: replace "been authenticated" by "authenticated" (i.e., rem=
ove the second occurrence of "been").
25) second para: one should add some verbiage that denial of service attack=
s are still possible, since any device can present whichever certificate (a=
 public string) to any other device. See also remark #12 above.
26) third para: the use of link local addresses prevents scalability of ACP=
 beyond a specific topology.
27) third para: the use of domain certificates necessitates re-issuance of =
certificates once a domain changes.
28) third para: Any device can spoof a link-local address, thereby still pr=
esenting the potential to execute attacks (use tunnel to compromised domain=
 node and then inject traffic with seemingly okay looking link-local addres=
s, etc., etc.)

Section 6:
29) first bullet: As already said, the use of domain certificates to eviden=
ce group membership has some hidden cost that should be elaborated upon in =
greater detail, in terms of preplanning, coordination, etc. See also remark=
 #10 above.
30) first bullet: the suggestion that the use of domain certificates allows=
 shipment of devices without any need for pre-provisioning seems, unfortuna=
tely, incorrect. Au contraire: one needs to decide in which domain a new de=
vice should be deployed prior to shipping, issue a certificate for that dom=
ain, install this into the device, all prior to shipment. In addition, if o=
ne wishes to deploy the shipped device with another domain (i.e., one chang=
es one's mind), one has to re-issue a cert for the new domain. With device =
certs that are not domain specific, one can simply populate a white list ta=
ble locally at the network manager and use this white list to arbitrage net=
work access.

Section 7:
31) first sentence: the ACP design heavily depends on a CA that can issue d=
omain-specific certificates and, essentially, administers the network

--
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

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Rene,






I have another comment to your very detailed review of that draft. Thi=
s is first bullet in section 6









Secure bootstrap of new devices without requiring an=
y
      configuration.  As explained in Section 3, a ne=
w device will
      automatically be bootstrapped in a secure fashion and be deployed
      with a domain certificate.  This will happen without any
      configuration, allowing a new device to be shipped directly to the
      end-user location without the need for any pre-provisioning.


How is this different from draft-kwatsen-netconf-zerotouch-01?






The zero-touch allows device to be shipped directly from vendor and de=
ployed into the network without any human intervention, except to be instal=
led and wired.







I'm in support of creating autonomic networks, but we have to see what=
 existing mechanisms can be used to that goal and if they need improvements=
. Would not recommend doing everything from scratch.







Dean









On Sep 17, 2014, at 7:44 PM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:




Dear colleagues:



Please find below my initial comments on draft-behringer-autonomic-control-=
plane-00



1. Summary:

The draft discusses a mechanism for networking that presumably can operate =
in parallel to ordinary network operation and is able to operate without co=
nfiguration.



2. General comments:

a) The idea of autonomic control plane relies on group membership notions e=
videnced by a so-called domain certificate. It is unclear what the ramifica=
tions of this approach are, in terms of provisioning, coordination, and pre=
-planning cost, and in terms of
 deployment flexibility of devices throughout their lifetime. The notion co=
uld possibly work with quite static networks; however, the comparison with =
other mechanisms for implementing group membership notions require consider=
ation. It is hard to see how this
 notion could work with more dynamic topologies or where flexible deploymen=
t is required. Certificate management aspects (e.g., key validity, revocati=
on) also require lots of attention, as well as manufacturing aspects (shoul=
d certs be generated during manufacturing)
 {since one should know where a device will be deployed before issuing the =
cert}.

b) The autonomic control plane concept seems to require adoption of the con=
cepts in another draft (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00)=
 to work.



3. Specific comments:



Section 1:

1) Third para (bottom of p. 1): It would help to elaborate on what "in=
dependent of configuration, addressing and routing problems" means. Do=
es this mean one wishes the "autonomic contorl plane" (ACP) proto=
col to be independent of routing addressing schemes
 that may be topology-dependent and independent of any routing tables? Plea=
se elaborate.

2) First para of p. 2: While the cross-referencing to another draft with co=
mmon authors (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00) is given =
seemingly simply "as an example", it seems hard to evaluate this =
draft on its own merits without considering
 that other cross-referenced draft at the same time. This complicates the r=
eview and makes the task of seeing whether certain designs all have to be u=
sed simultaneously or not at all, or whether these cover modules that are l=
argely independent arduous. I would
 prefer untangling of lots of the nmrg drafts, which now

often cross-reference each other. To reach an informed opinion, I had to re=
ad them all, rather than being able to read these as drafts that mostly sto=
od on their own. I feel this discourages inviting comments from the communi=
ty at large.

3) The idea of the autonomic control plane seems to be to similar to the &q=
uot;dry run" option expressed in draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 =
(see my general review remark #b on that draft), in the sense that one can =
run the ACP network in an otherwise operational
 network. This does sound more like a logical flow separation issue, where =
the operational network and the "ACP network" version run in &quo=
t;different colors". This could be realized if one could have more tha=
n one instantiation of a protocol running at the same
 time, with logical separation being provided by color coding messaging and=
 configuration data. I can see how this could be realized if one deals with=
 direct neighbors in the "ACP color" (since then routing is effec=
tively non-existent), but had trouble to understand
 if one wishes to communicate with a more remote "ACP node" (or, =
more precisely, a node that allows ACP-instantiated traffic). At the same t=
ime, at the local non-routing level, can't one already communicate on the l=
ocal direct neighbor level using existing
 techniques? (If not, one should explain this in the draft.)



Section 2:

4) First bullet: replace "bootstrapping of a device today" by &qu=
ot;bootstrapping of a device today typically" (after all, not all exis=
ting networks today require execution of network formation in a carefully p=
replanned order and with lots of coordination [lots
 of well-designed sensor networks can form in virtually any order, almost w=
ithout human intervention]).

5) First bullet: do I have to (sadly) conclude there is absolutely no IETF =
protocol out there where where network formation can happen in a more organ=
ic manner? {sorry - I do not know all the zillions of RFCs by heart.} After=
 all, even if a joining device has
 to authenticate to the network, any public-key based authenticated key agr=
eement scheme can run over any channel (secured or not), so having UDP and =
a network sink seems to suffice (can't one use DTLS, here?). This makes me =
wonder (if my sad conclusion actually
 does hold) what this bottleneck is: addressing scheme, authorization issue=
s, pure insanity? The current draft, unfortunately, does not elaborate on t=
he current show-stoppers, except to suggest that one somehow needs console =
access. It would be extremely beneficial
 to give this more elaborate insight. {This makes me wonder how the interne=
t recovers if one blows part of the network away and tries to reform what i=
s left ("survivability", "failure recovery").}

6) Third bullet: add full-stop at the end of the first line.



Section 3:

7) Section 3.2, second para: replace "an globally" by "a glo=
bally".

8) Section 3.2, second para: one should add some verbiage re privacy implic=
ations of the adjacency discovery mechanism. (Note: on a more general note,=
 it is hard to find any reference to privacy considerations, tracking, trac=
eability, anonymity in any of the
 nmrg-related drafts.)

9) Section 3.2, bulletized list: I wonder how any automatic mechanism may d=
erive any notion of "trust" and validity hereof. This should be c=
larified.(Or, does one simply imply that whatever has a certificate issued =
by a specific CA is automatically "trusted"??)

10) Section 3.3: this section seems to assume that devices that have a &quo=
t;domain" certificate issued by the same CA are to be mutually trusted=
. While one can indeed use this (very coarse-grained) mechanism for evidenc=
ing membership of the same group ("domain"),
 this is not a priori provide for autonomic networking, at least not withou=
t carefully articulating first how these should be issued, what preplanning=
 and coordination this requires and what the impact is on flexibility of de=
ployment. This should then be compared
 with alternatives, such as the use of group keys in the example of a netwo=
rk with a network manager who keeps a repository of device identifiers and =
provides triage on network access via, e.g., a white list.

11) Section 3.3: if one where to use domain identities, these could also be=
 realized via attribute certs, rather than device certs. This would have th=
e advantage of separating the CA role from the domain-mapping role (which c=
ould be implemented more locally).

12) Section 3.3: domain certificate validation by itself does not establish=
 group membership (since any device can send this publicly known string); u=
se of the private key (aka "key possession") is required too. I s=
uggest making this more clear in the draft.

13) Section 3.3, p. 5 (last bullet): if checking whether a certificate is i=
nvalid or expired requires 3rd party assistance (e.g., to implement OCSP, C=
RL, or securely synchronize time) this protocol may no longer be autonomic.=
 By group membership depend on CA-issued
 "domain" certificates, one almost automatically forces this scen=
ario, unless one ignores key validity lifetime issues and issues certs with=
 "eternal life".

14) Section 3.4: one should define the concept of GRE tunnels. Moreover, wo=
uldn't one loose potential interoperability and invite configuration issues=
 by suggesting a plethora of options for establishing and maintaining a sec=
ure channel here (IPSec, "GRE tunnels",
 etc.)?

15) Section 3.5: if one does not wish to depend on link configured addresse=
s, can't one use cryptographically generated addresses instead?

16) Section 3.5: as already said before (see remark #3), it is unclear how =
routing over more than one hop is realized.

17) Section 3.5: one should explain what 802.1q tags are and which useful f=
unctions these could provide in the context of ACP networking.

18) Section 3.6: The main benefit of having an ACP networking options (for =
"emergency" purposes) seems to be that one does not necessarily n=
eed to use lots of configuration that, while useful for routing of ordinary=
 traffic, does not really matter too much
 for non-throughput/non-time latency optimized communications, such as for =
network diagnostics by qualified personnel. If correct, I would suggest som=
e verbiage explaining this philosophy in more detail. (Even if incorrect, I=
 would still suggest to add more
 explanation here.)

19) Section 3.7: It is unclear why one needs another address in ACP context=
: the "domain" is already in the domain certificate; why can't on=
e use a cryptographically generated address? Why does one need to have the =
same prefix for all domain devices (since
 ACP networking is defined from scratch and no routing approach is defined,=
 there does not seem to be any need to stick to IPv6 address formats with 6=
4-bit prefixes (which, again, codifies topology dependent information!).
20) Section 3.8: it is unclear who/what has domain control for propagation =
of routing information.

21) Section 3.8, top of p. 7: it would be good to add some more background =
as to why RPL as a routing protocol would be a suitable candidate for auton=
omic networking, what the dependency is on the addressing scheme suggested =
in Section 3.7 and whether, e.g.,
 different instantiations of RPL can run at the same time (this would be of=
 interest should one wish to use ACP concept in a constrained network setti=
ng that already uses RPL for ordinary networking). As an aside: the RPL spe=
cification [RFC 6550] does not include
 key management functionality, so it would be of interest to see whether wh=
at this draft proposes can fill in part of this void...



Section 4:

22) First bullet: it would help to have some insight in case of anomalies, =
such as "what happens if tables are full".

23) Third bullet: this raises the question as to scope and lifecycle aspect=
s of domain certificates (see also remark #13).



Section 5:

24) second line: replace "been authenticated" by "authentica=
ted" (i.e., remove the second occurrence of "been").

25) second para: one should add some verbiage that denial of service attack=
s are still possible, since any device can present whichever certificate (a=
 public string) to any other device. See also remark #12 above.

26) third para: the use of link local addresses prevents scalability of ACP=
 beyond a specific topology.

27) third para: the use of domain certificates necessitates re-issuance of =
certificates once a domain changes.

28) third para: Any device can spoof a link-local address, thereby still pr=
esenting the potential to execute attacks (use tunnel to compromised domain=
 node and then inject traffic with seemingly okay looking link-local addres=
s, etc., etc.)



Section 6:

29) first bullet: As already said, the use of domain certificates to eviden=
ce group membership has some hidden cost that should be elaborated upon in =
greater detail, in terms of preplanning, coordination, etc. See also remark=
 #10 above.

30) first bullet: the suggestion that the use of domain certificates allows=
 shipment of devices without any need for pre-provisioning seems, unfortuna=
tely, incorrect. Au contraire: one needs to decide in which domain a new de=
vice should be deployed prior to
 shipping, issue a certificate for that domain, install this into the devic=
e, all prior to shipment. In addition, if one wishes to deploy the shipped =
device with another domain (i.e., one changes one's mind), one has to re-is=
sue a cert for the new domain. With
 device certs that are not domain specific, one can simply populate a white=
 list table locally at the network manager and use this white list to arbit=
rage network access.



Section 7:

31) first sentence: the ACP design heavily depends on a CA that can issue d=
omain-specific certificates and, essentially, administers the network



-- 

email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com |=
 Skype: rstruik

cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363



_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima












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Dean,

It goes without saying that before the proposed WG group adopts
any particular solution, existing solutions have to be reviewed
as part of the decision process. That applies quite generally of
course, not just to this particular functionality.

So I'm agreeing with you that we need to consider
netconf-zerotouch as part of the potential solution set. Whether
it is *the* solution for anima is a discussion for the future.

We (the IETF in general) shouldn't solve the same problem more
than once, if we can avoid it.

Regards
   Brian

On 01/10/2014 08:19, Dean Bogdanovic wrote:
> Rene,
> 
> I have another comment to your very detailed review of that draft. This is first bullet in section 6
> 
> 
> Secure bootstrap of new devices without requiring any
>       configuration.  As explained in Section 3, a new device will
>       automatically be bootstrapped in a secure fashion and be deployed
>       with a domain certificate.  This will happen without any
>       configuration, allowing a new device to be shipped directly to the
>       end-user location without the need for any pre-provisioning.
> 
> How is this different from draft-kwatsen-netconf-zerotouch-01?
> 
> The zero-touch allows device to be shipped directly from vendor and deployed into the network without any human intervention, except to be installed and wired.
> 
> I'm in support of creating autonomic networks, but we have to see what existing mechanisms can be used to that goal and if they need improvements. Would not recommend doing everything from scratch.
> 
> Dean
> 
> On Sep 17, 2014, at 7:44 PM, Rene Struik > wrote:
> 
> Dear colleagues:
> 
> Please find below my initial comments on draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00
> 
> 1. Summary:
> The draft discusses a mechanism for networking that presumably can operate in parallel to ordinary network operation and is able to operate without configuration.
> 
> 2. General comments:
> a) The idea of autonomic control plane relies on group membership notions evidenced by a so-called domain certificate. It is unclear what the ramifications of this approach are, in terms of provisioning, coordination, and pre-planning cost, and in terms of deployment flexibility of devices throughout their lifetime. The notion could possibly work with quite static networks; however, the comparison with other mechanisms for implementing group membership notions require consideration. It is hard to see how this notion could work with more dynamic topologies or where flexible deployment is required. Certificate management aspects (e.g., key validity, revocation) also require lots of attention, as well as manufacturing aspects (should certs be generated during manufacturing) {since one should know where a device will be deployed before issuing the cert}.
> b) The autonomic control plane concept seems to require adoption of the concepts in another draft (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00) to work.
> 
> 3. Specific comments:
> 
> Section 1:
> 1) Third para (bottom of p. 1): It would help to elaborate on what "independent of configuration, addressing and routing problems" means. Does this mean one wishes the "autonomic contorl plane" (ACP) protocol to be independent of routing addressing schemes that may be topology-dependent and independent of any routing tables? Please elaborate.
> 2) First para of p. 2: While the cross-referencing to another draft with common authors (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00) is given seemingly simply "as an example", it seems hard to evaluate this draft on its own merits without considering that other cross-referenced draft at the same time. This complicates the review and makes the task of seeing whether certain designs all have to be used simultaneously or not at all, or whether these cover modules that are largely independent arduous. I would prefer untangling of lots of the nmrg drafts, which now
> often cross-reference each other. To reach an informed opinion, I had to read them all, rather than being able to read these as drafts that mostly stood on their own. I feel this discourages inviting comments from the community at large.
> 3) The idea of the autonomic control plane seems to be to similar to the "dry run" option expressed in draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see my general review remark #b on that draft), in the sense that one can run the ACP network in an otherwise operational network. This does sound more like a logical flow separation issue, where the operational network and the "ACP network" version run in "different colors". This could be realized if one could have more than one instantiation of a protocol running at the same time, with logical separation being provided by color coding messaging and configuration data. I can see how this could be realized if one deals with direct neighbors in the "ACP color" (since then routing is effectively non-existent), but had trouble to understand if one wishes to communicate with a more remote "ACP node" (or, more precisely, a node that allows ACP-instantiated traffic). At the same time, at the local non-routing level, can't one already commun
icate on the local direct neighbor level using existing techniques? (If not, one should explain this in the draft.)
> 
> Section 2:
> 4) First bullet: replace "bootstrapping of a device today" by "bootstrapping of a device today typically" (after all, not all existing networks today require execution of network formation in a carefully preplanned order and with lots of coordination [lots of well-designed sensor networks can form in virtually any order, almost without human intervention]).
> 5) First bullet: do I have to (sadly) conclude there is absolutely no IETF protocol out there where where network formation can happen in a more organic manner? {sorry - I do not know all the zillions of RFCs by heart.} After all, even if a joining device has to authenticate to the network, any public-key based authenticated key agreement scheme can run over any channel (secured or not), so having UDP and a network sink seems to suffice (can't one use DTLS, here?). This makes me wonder (if my sad conclusion actually does hold) what this bottleneck is: addressing scheme, authorization issues, pure insanity? The current draft, unfortunately, does not elaborate on the current show-stoppers, except to suggest that one somehow needs console access. It would be extremely beneficial to give this more elaborate insight. {This makes me wonder how the internet recovers if one blows part of the network away and tries to reform what is left ("survivability", "failure recovery").}
> 6) Third bullet: add full-stop at the end of the first line.
> 
> Section 3:
> 7) Section 3.2, second para: replace "an globally" by "a globally".
> 8) Section 3.2, second para: one should add some verbiage re privacy implications of the adjacency discovery mechanism. (Note: on a more general note, it is hard to find any reference to privacy considerations, tracking, traceability, anonymity in any of the nmrg-related drafts.)
> 9) Section 3.2, bulletized list: I wonder how any automatic mechanism may derive any notion of "trust" and validity hereof. This should be clarified.(Or, does one simply imply that whatever has a certificate issued by a specific CA is automatically "trusted"??)
> 10) Section 3.3: this section seems to assume that devices that have a "domain" certificate issued by the same CA are to be mutually trusted. While one can indeed use this (very coarse-grained) mechanism for evidencing membership of the same group ("domain"), this is not a priori provide for autonomic networking, at least not without carefully articulating first how these should be issued, what preplanning and coordination this requires and what the impact is on flexibility of deployment. This should then be compared with alternatives, such as the use of group keys in the example of a network with a network manager who keeps a repository of device identifiers and provides triage on network access via, e.g., a white list.
> 11) Section 3.3: if one where to use domain identities, these could also be realized via attribute certs, rather than device certs. This would have the advantage of separating the CA role from the domain-mapping role (which could be implemented more locally).
> 12) Section 3.3: domain certificate validation by itself does not establish group membership (since any device can send this publicly known string); use of the private key (aka "key possession") is required too. I suggest making this more clear in the draft.
> 13) Section 3.3, p. 5 (last bullet): if checking whether a certificate is invalid or expired requires 3rd party assistance (e.g., to implement OCSP, CRL, or securely synchronize time) this protocol may no longer be autonomic. By group membership depend on CA-issued "domain" certificates, one almost automatically forces this scenario, unless one ignores key validity lifetime issues and issues certs with "eternal life".
> 14) Section 3.4: one should define the concept of GRE tunnels. Moreover, wouldn't one loose potential interoperability and invite configuration issues by suggesting a plethora of options for establishing and maintaining a secure channel here (IPSec, "GRE tunnels", etc.)?
> 15) Section 3.5: if one does not wish to depend on link configured addresses, can't one use cryptographically generated addresses instead?
> 16) Section 3.5: as already said before (see remark #3), it is unclear how routing over more than one hop is realized.
> 17) Section 3.5: one should explain what 802.1q tags are and which useful functions these could provide in the context of ACP networking.
> 18) Section 3.6: The main benefit of having an ACP networking options (for "emergency" purposes) seems to be that one does not necessarily need to use lots of configuration that, while useful for routing of ordinary traffic, does not really matter too much for non-throughput/non-time latency optimized communications, such as for network diagnostics by qualified personnel. If correct, I would suggest some verbiage explaining this philosophy in more detail. (Even if incorrect, I would still suggest to add more explanation here.)
> 19) Section 3.7: It is unclear why one needs another address in ACP context: the "domain" is already in the domain certificate; why can't one use a cryptographically generated address? Why does one need to have the same prefix for all domain devices (since ACP networking is defined from scratch and no routing approach is defined, there does not seem to be any need to stick to IPv6 address formats with 64-bit prefixes (which, again, codifies topology dependent information!).
> 20) Section 3.8: it is unclear who/what has domain control for propagation of routing information.
> 21) Section 3.8, top of p. 7: it would be good to add some more background as to why RPL as a routing protocol would be a suitable candidate for autonomic networking, what the dependency is on the addressing scheme suggested in Section 3.7 and whether, e.g., different instantiations of RPL can run at the same time (this would be of interest should one wish to use ACP concept in a constrained network setting that already uses RPL for ordinary networking). As an aside: the RPL specification [RFC 6550] does not include key management functionality, so it would be of interest to see whether what this draft proposes can fill in part of this void...
> 
> Section 4:
> 22) First bullet: it would help to have some insight in case of anomalies, such as "what happens if tables are full".
> 23) Third bullet: this raises the question as to scope and lifecycle aspects of domain certificates (see also remark #13).
> 
> Section 5:
> 24) second line: replace "been authenticated" by "authenticated" (i.e., remove the second occurrence of "been").
> 25) second para: one should add some verbiage that denial of service attacks are still possible, since any device can present whichever certificate (a public string) to any other device. See also remark #12 above.
> 26) third para: the use of link local addresses prevents scalability of ACP beyond a specific topology.
> 27) third para: the use of domain certificates necessitates re-issuance of certificates once a domain changes.
> 28) third para: Any device can spoof a link-local address, thereby still presenting the potential to execute attacks (use tunnel to compromised domain node and then inject traffic with seemingly okay looking link-local address, etc., etc.)
> 
> Section 6:
> 29) first bullet: As already said, the use of domain certificates to evidence group membership has some hidden cost that should be elaborated upon in greater detail, in terms of preplanning, coordination, etc. See also remark #10 above.
> 30) first bullet: the suggestion that the use of domain certificates allows shipment of devices without any need for pre-provisioning seems, unfortunately, incorrect. Au contraire: one needs to decide in which domain a new device should be deployed prior to shipping, issue a certificate for that domain, install this into the device, all prior to shipment. In addition, if one wishes to deploy the shipped device with another domain (i.e., one changes one's mind), one has to re-issue a cert for the new domain. With device certs that are not domain specific, one can simply populate a white list table locally at the network manager and use this white list to arbitrage network access.
> 
> Section 7:
> 31) first sentence: the ACP design heavily depends on a CA that can issue domain-specific certificates and, essentially, administers the network
> 
> --
> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From nobody Tue Sep 30 14:33:42 2014
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From: Dean Bogdanovic 
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
Thread-Topic: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , Rene Struik 
Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01
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On Sep 26, 2014, at 10:10 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) > wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh=
alf Of Brian E
Carpenter
Sent: 23 September 2014 04:49
To: Rene Struik
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01

Rene,

On 17/09/2014 10:42, Rene Struik wrote:
Dear colleagues:

Please find below my initial comments on
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.

...
b) Section 4 would benefit from including also some head ache areas in
security configuration, including OCSP, CRLs, policy pushes, device
provisioning, etc.

Can you sketch this in a bit more detail? I'm having a little difficulty be=
cause
I'm not sure how the examples you give can be turned into self-
management. In particular a lot of this is top-down, isn't it? Or do you th=
ink
CRLS can be generated down in the infrstructure?

I think I understand what Rene meant, and gave this a shot. See below a new=
 security section for pre-view and comments. This text isn't only my work, =
it came from Brian and Sheng as well.

So the below would go into section 4: Rene, does this address your points?

Michael



       Setting up security for a network generally requires very detaile=
d
       human intervention, or relies entirely on default configurations tha=
t
       may be too strict or too risky for the particular situation of the
       network. While some aspects of security are intrinsically top-down
       in nature (e.g. broadcasting a specific security policy to all
       hosts), others could be self-managed within the network.  
       
       In an autonomic network, where nodes within a domain have a mutually
       verifiable domain identity, security processes could run entirely
       automatically.
You meant here automatically or autonomic?

Nodes could identify each other securely, negotiating
       required security settings and even shared keys if needed. The locat=
ion
       of trust anchors (certificate authority, registration authority),
       certificate revocation lists, policy server, etc can be
       found by service discovery. Transaction such as a certificate revoca=
tion
       list download can be authenticated via a common trust anchor.
       Policy distribution can also be entirely automated, and secured via
       a common trust anchor. 
       These concepts lead to a network where the intrinsic security is
       automatic and applied by default, i.e., a "self-protecting" network.
       see also 
     


Regards
   Brian

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Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

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On Sep 26, 2014, at 10:10 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:






-----Original Message-----

From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.=
org] On Behalf Of Brian E

Carpenter

Sent: 23 September 2014 04:49

To: Rene Struik

Cc: anima@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01



Rene,



On 17/09/2014 10:42, Rene Struik wrote:


Dear colleagues:



Please find below my initial comments on

draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-01.





...


b) Section 4 would benefit from including also so=
me head ache areas in

security configuration, including OCSP, CRLs, policy pushes, device

provisioning, etc.





Can you sketch this in a bit more detail? I'm having a little difficulty be=
cause

I'm not sure how the examples you give can be turned into self-

management. In particular a lot of this is top-down, isn't it? Or do you th=
ink

CRLS can be generated down in the infrstructure?





I think I understand what Rene meant, and gave this a shot. See below a new=
 security section for pre-view and comments. This text isn't only my work, =
it came from Brian and Sheng as well.




So the below would go into section 4: Rene, does this address your points? =




Michael



<section title=3D"Security Setup">

       <t>Setting up security for =
a network generally requires very detailed

       human intervention, or relies ent=
irely on default configurations that

       may be too strict or too risky fo=
r the particular situation of the

       network. While some aspects of se=
curity are intrinsically top-down

       in nature (e.g. broadcasting a sp=
ecific security policy to all

       hosts), others could be self-mana=
ged within the network.  </t>

       <t>

       In an autonomic network, where no=
des within a domain have a mutually

       verifiable domain identity, secur=
ity processes could run entirely

       automatically. 

You meant here automatically or autonomic?




Nodes could identify each other securely, negotia=
ting

       required security settings and ev=
en shared keys if needed. The location 

       of trust anchors (certificate aut=
hority, registration authority),  

       certificate revocation lists, pol=
icy server, etc can be 

       found by service discovery. Trans=
action such as a certificate revocation 

       list download can be authenticate=
d via a common trust anchor.  

       Policy distribution can also be e=
ntirely automated, and secured via 

       a common trust anchor. </t>=


       <t>These concepts lead to a=
 network where the intrinsic security is 

       automatic and applied by default,=
 i.e., a "self-protecting" network. 

       see also <xref target=3D"=
I.D-behringer-default-secure"/></t>

     </section>




Regards

   Brian



_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima





_______________________________________________

Anima mailing list

Anima@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima










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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" 
To: "anima@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Tomorrow's ANIMA meeting cancelled
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Subject: [Anima] Tomorrow's ANIMA meeting cancelled
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Several folks can't make the ANIMA call tomorrow, we decided therefore to c=
ancel the "official" call.=20

I leave the webex in place, in case some folks still want meet.=20

Michael